DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 28th July, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other national duties, Hon. Dr Kalombo Mwansa, MP, Minister of Defence, will act as Leader of Government Business in the House today, Tuesday, 28th and, tomorrow, Wednesday, 29th July, 2009.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

KAGEM MINING LIMITED

351. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) what the lifespan of Kagem Mining Limited in Kalulushi was;

(b) what the estimated total value of emeralds of the above mine was;

(c) how much money was expected to be raised from this mine in taxes; and

(d) how many jobs were expected to be created by the mine.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, currently, the defined resources explored by the new management when it took over at the current rate of production indicates a ten year life span, but this is likely to change dramatically depending upon the following scenarios:

(a) exploring the deposits further and defining actual mineable resources in addition to already defined resources;

(b) exploring the possibilities of underground mining to suit different types of deposits to become mineable; and

(c) possible improvement in prices of rough emeralds to realistic levels so that some of the marginal deposits also come within the mineable category.

Mr Speaker, the estimated total value of emeralds during the ten year life span of the mine is US$300 million at current prices.

Mr Speaker, a total of US$42 million is estimated to be paid in taxes as follows:

Type of Tax   Amount
    (US$)
Mineral royalty   15 million

corporate taxes   15 million

PAYE as weight   12 million

Total     42 million

Mr Speaker, about 200 more jobs are likely to be created and added to the current workforce. This will result in a total of 600 jobs, indirect and contractor employments at current levels.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, when Kagem Mining Limited goes to Israel to sell emeralds, no representative from the Government accompanies the management to ensure that the value of whatever they sell there is known. When is a representative from the Government going to begin to accompany them?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is thanked most sincerely for his observation which the Government will look into. However, we realise that, as we are encouraging private sector participation in the mining industry, we should see to it that we do not burden them. However, we will look into that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, welcome back.

Sir, the total value of emeralds in the world is estimated at US$3 billion. Various experts have also estimated that 20 per cent of the emeralds on the world market emanate from Zambia. This amounts to about US$600 million. A conservative tax rate of 40 per cent, can result in revenue of US$240 million or K1.2 trillion, which is enough to fund the whole Ministry of Education for one year. Why is this country not realising this amount from the emerald industry?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Luena for his concern because we would like the nation to benefit from its natural resources. However, the manner in which we have been marketing our emeralds is historical. We also have to realise that the pricing of emeralds is subjective. It is not guided by any stock exchange like the London Metal Exchange which gives an idea of the price of metals.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what plans the Government will put in place to ensure that all the revenue from emeralds is monitored.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the only revenue that we can monitor is the one that we receive, as a Government, through taxes because these are private companies. Our only duty is to ensure that the operations continue so that our people are assured of employment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, welcome back.

May I find out from the hon. Minister the shareholding structure of Kagem Mining Limited.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, since I am not sure of the exact shareholding structure, I do not want to misinform the House. However, our shareholding in Kagem Mining Limited has reduced. The majority shareholders are those who were the minority shareholders.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, given the great potential of the gemstone industry in Zambia, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why emerald mines controlled directly by the Government, such as the Zambia National Service (ZNS) and Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investments Holdings (ZCCM-IH) mines, are not being given priority.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I have difficulty answering that question because the hon. Member knows fully well that mining is capital intensive. The mining companies that he has referred to went into emerald mining at a time when the prime areas had already been taken up by other companies. As such, they have had difficulties striking the mineral pockets containing emeralds. That is why it has taken so long for them to reach production levels.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why the Government has allowed Kagem Mining Limited to invest US$19.84 million in a gemstone polishing workshop in India instead of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his observation. It is our desire to ensure that value is added to our mineral resources through cutting and polishing so that we can earn a bit more from exporting these resources.
Mr Speaker, the point to note is that the foreign shareholders in Kagem Mining Limited have had a long history of owning laboratories in their own countries and as such have not built these facilities here. However, the Government is making progress in dialoguing with Kagem Mining Limited to ensure that the laboratory in Ndola becomes operational as quickly as possible.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why Zambia has not benefited from its gemstones in the manner that our neighbouring countries with diamonds have when emeralds are even more valuable than diamonds.

Mr. M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, it is a historical fact that the marketing arrangement for emeralds was not favourable to Zambia because the foreign shareholders in Kagem Mining Limited were the ones buying the gemstones. This meant that we were not getting maximum benefits from our mineral resources. However, now that the mines are in private hands, we would like to see them become vibrant, continue employing our people and pay the taxes that they are obliged to pay.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

KWF WATER PROJECT IN NORTH-WESTERN PROVINCE

352. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing what the current status of the German Government sponsored KWF water project in North-Western Province was and when it would be completed.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the project has now been completed and my ministry will be handing over the assets to the councils in the province before the end of August, 2009.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister when this programme will be rolled out to the remaining districts because it only covered three districts.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the project covered three districts and has come to an end. If our co-operating partners decide to resume it, the hon. Member will be informed.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, this year, Zambezi, Chavuma and Kabompo district councils applied for the extension of this water project to their districts and KWF agreed to do so. May I find out why the Government is reluctant to allow KWF extend this project to those three districts.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the Government is not reluctant and should it happen that the project is extended to other districts, as I said, the hon. Members will be informed. As at now, the project has come to end and all the assets are being handed over to the councils in the province.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

NUMBER OF POLICE OFFICERS AT ROAD BLOCKS/CHECK POINTS
353. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) how many police officers were expected to be stationed at a single road block/check point at a given time; and

(b) how many official road blocks were supposed to be on the Ndola/Mufulira Road.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, the minimum number of police officers expected to be stationed at a single road bock or check point at a given time is four. The maximum number of officers will depend on the nature of the operation, number of lanes and whether there is heavy traffic or not.

Sir, there is no specified number of road blocks that are supposed to be on the Ndola/Mufulira Road. The determining factor is the security situation. There used to be six roadblocks initially, but now there are three manned by officers from the School of Public Order Management in Kamfinsa.

The reduction in the number of roadblocks is due to the improvement in security. It is worth noting that this road has many access roads to a neighbouring country which criminals use.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that we have lost a number of vehicles through the Ndola/Mufulira Road? Does he not realise that reducing the number of road blocks on this road is putting the lives of the road users at risk as security is compromised?

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, we are more informed on motor vehicle thefts than the hon. Member of Parliament …
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: … and, therefore, when we talk about a reduction, we are looking at statistics and not just depending on hearsay.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that some road blocks have been turned into automated teller machines (ATMs) by police officers who are always asking for money from motorists?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member has evidence of police officers who are involved in corrupt practices, she should report them to the police and we will deal with them.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, since most of the officers who man the roadblocks do not have guns, how safe are they in a situation where they are confronted with a robbery?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, most roadblocks are well secured since they are of a sensitive nature. We make sure that, at least, one or two policemen are armed. There is no roadblock that has got no officer with a gun and ammunition.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the old structures on the Ndola/Mufulira Road will be destroyed because they are a safety hazard to motorists.

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member is talking about the barriers that are there, there is no problem. We will ensure that they are removed very soon.

I thank you, Sir.

PROVISION OF BEDS AND LINEN IN HEALTH FACILITIES IN ZAMBEZI WEST CONSTITUENCY

354. Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West) asked the Minister of Health when the Government would provide beds, mattresses and linen to the following health facilities in Zambezi West Parliamentary Constituency:

(a) Chinyama Litapi Rural Health Centre;

(b) Kucheka Rural Health Centre; and

(c) Chinyingi Mission Hospital.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Mr Speaker, the Zambezi District Health Office has planned for the replacement of mattresses at Chinyama Litapi, Kucheka and Chinyingi rural health centres in Zambezi West in the 2009 Action Plan. So far, eight mattresses have been bought for Chinyama Litapi Rural Health Centre. The rest will be bought later in the year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, currently, patients are sleeping on the Floor because there are no beds and mattresses. I would like to know what interventions this Government can put in place to ensure that patients have adequate beds and mattresses while waiting for the 2009 Action Plan that the hon. Minister is talking about to be implemented.

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, like we said in the reply, the beds and mattresses will be procured. Additionally, may I state that consumables and not capital items are the ones which are procured at the district hospitals or facility centres. Items of a capital nature are procured centrally.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, when you go round institutions, you will still find the linen which Mr Sata left when he was Minister of Health. This linen is in a bad state. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how often the ministry supplies linen to the health institutions in the country.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, as I said, the purchase of these items is centralised. Therefore the various district health boards take care of the purchases.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, it is evident that districts are failing to buy linen. What measures is the Government putting in place to make sure that the district management boards buy linen for their hospitals and centres?

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, inventories are done to ascertain the availability of various items in all the institutions. As and when the need to replace these items arises, it shall be done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, from the time it was discovered that money was misappropriated at the Ministry of Health, it has been very difficult for hospitals in rural areas to get normal funding. What is the ministry doing to normalise the situation?

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, we do appreciate that the flow of funding to health institutions has reduced. This is obvious because of the absence of the donor component. However, as a ministry, with the assistance of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, measures are being put in place to mitigate these shortfalls.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, the issue of linen in hospitals is a very serious one. Is the hon. Minister aware that in hospitals like Ronald Ross patients cover themselves with curtains?

Laughter

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, I think we have already provided the answer to the concern on linen. However, we will investigate the hon. Member’s complaint regarding linen.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the reason we do not have linen in hospitals like Ronald Ross is that the Government has reduced on the amount of grants given to hospitals and that is why the patients in those hospitals get blankets from home.

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, it is true, there is a reduction in grants. This is because the other component that makes the health budget is not there. Additionally, this House is the one that appropriates money to the Ministry of Health and they know what goes into that budget.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

CROCODILE ATTACKS IN THE ZAMBEZI RIVER IN ZAMBEZI DISTRICT

355. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a) how many people were attacked by crocodiles in the Zambezi River in   
Zambezi District from 2005 to 2008; and

(b) what measures the ministry had taken to minimise the human-reptile  conflict on the Zambezi River in Zambezi District.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Mwangala): Mr Speaker, a total of seven reports of people attacked by crocodiles on the Zambezi River in Zambezi District reached the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) office during the period 2005 to 2008.

The measures that the ministry, through ZAWA, has taken to minimise the human-reptile conflict on the Zambezi River in the Zambezi District include the following:

(a) ZAWA field officers have been mandated to kill crocodiles that  
have attacked humans; and

(b) people are sensitised as much as possible to avoid confrontations with  
crocodiles.

The above mentioned tasks are done by ZAWA officers based at the nearest office which is in Mufumbwe District.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, may I find out when the ZAWA officers last went to Zambezi to crop the crocodiles that are wreaking havoc on the people because the incidences of crocodiles killing people is increasing. The last time the ZAWA officers were last there many years ago, they were so scared of shooting the crocodiles because they thought that they were artificial.

Laughter

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Mr Speaker, there is no way that ZAWA officers can be scared of crocodiles because they are well equipped. Regarding the last time they went there, all I can say is that they go as and when they are required. The hon. Deputy Minister has explained that they are stationed in Mufumbwe and they are not scared of crocodiles.

Thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister spoke of crocodiles that had attacked and killed people. May I ask how the crocodiles that have eaten people are identified before they are killed.

Laughter

Dr Scott: I ask this having read somewhere that the Lozi people believe that crocodiles that have eaten people become sluggish, feel guilty and are easily caught by people wadding through the water. Has the hon. Minister got any information on this interesting subject?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources will displace certain myths.
Laughter

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, I want to commend the hon. Member for Lusaka Central for his traditional beliefs. Yes, indeed, when a crocodile has attacked humans, normally the local people will know and the ZAWA officers will be able to identify that crocodile. They will go and look within the territory where they expect this crocodile to be.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, a crocodile is a very valuable animal because of the money you can realise from the sale of its skin and meat. That is why we have thriving crocodile farms in Zambia. I wish to learn from the hon. Minister how much revenue the Government is getting from the crocodiles that we are cropping seeing that they are in numbers.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, yes indeed, a crocodile is a valuable resource for the people of Zambia. I would like to encourage hon. Members, such as the one who has asked the question, to encourage people to invest in crocodile farming because it is lucrative.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of the revenue raised from crocodile farming and exports, may I be allowed to get back to the House so that I can give the exact figures.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the Government has any intention, in future, to bring legislation to this august House to compensate families whose relatives have been killed, innocently, by these animals.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, there can never be sufficient compensation for the loss of human life. However, the ministry is in the process of reviewing and amending the Zambia Wildlife Authority Act. I hope that when the Act comes to this House, the hon. Members will contribute to it sufficiently.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

FERTILISER SUPPORT PROGRAMME 2007/08 AND 2008/09 BENEFICIARIES

356. Ms Kapata (Mandevu) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) how many people benefited from the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) in the:

(i) 2007/2008 farming season; and

(ii) 2008/2009 farming season; and

(b) of the beneficiaries in (a) above, how many were:

(i) women;

(ii) physically challenged;

(iii) youth groups; and

(iv) people living with HIV/AIDS.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Mr Speaker, in the 2007/2008 farming season, 125,000 people benefited. In the 2008/2009 farming season, 200,000 people benefited.

Sir, following the gender mainstreaming policy of the Government to disaggregate data based on female and male farmers, 46,884 and 74,279 women benefited from the FSP in the 2007/2008 and 2008/2009 farming seasons, respectively.

Sir, the FSP inputs are allocated to districts. Beneficiaries of these inputs are supposed to be small-scale farmers belonging to registered co-operative societies and other farmers’ organisations. Individual members of these co-operatives and farmers’ organisations may be the physically challenged, youths and people living with HIV/AIDS. However, the ministry does not categorise the beneficiaries or capture data according to these groups in order to avoid the stigma that may arise from this classification.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I want to find out whether the Government has any specific plans to enable the disadvantaged, especially the people living with HIV/AIDS and the physically challenged, to benefit from the FSP.

. Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, as I indicated in my answer, the individual members of these co-operatives and farmers’ organisations may be physically challenged, youths or people living with HIV/AIDS. People benefit through co-operative societies.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, in Zambia, we have approximately 1,300,000 peasant farmers who have been benefiting from the FSP since its inception. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the Government has any plans to see to it that those peasant farmers who have benefited for more than two years graduate from the programme so that they give chance to other farmers to benefit.

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, initially, when the FSP started, it was supposed to be for three years and the people who should have been graduating are the ones who are benefiting. This has been compounded by the problem of the farmers’ register. However, the Government is doing everything possible to strengthen and normalise the farmers’ register so that people start graduating from this programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, through you, I would like to find out when the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives will come to this House and lay, on the Table, the new guidelines pertaining to the FSP so that we are aware of what is going to transpire this year.

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, we have been holding meetings at ministerial level to discuss ways of strengthening the delivery of fertiliser. I am very sure that before this House adjourns, the ministry will table the new modalities of how people will access fertiliser this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, we have heard how the FSP has been abused by some officers in the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives when we have well-established women’s groups in churches such as the Dorcas Mothers in the Seventh Day Adventist (SDA), Kwafwana Kwabanamayo Bena Kristu (KBBK) in the United Church of Zambia (UCZ) and Women’s League in the Catholic Church. Is the ministry thinking of collaborating with the Church to ensure that this fertiliser is not abused and the women benefit?

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, as I indicated in my answer, we do not give fertiliser to churches, but co-operative societies and members of those co-operative societies could be members of those churches.
Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how he arrived at the numbers that he has given to this House because the research conducted showed that, though the FSP is targeted at peasant farmers, the supposed beneficiaries did not benefit from it.

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, this data is captured at our districts and this is what we budgeted for. The figures I am giving are the figures for the fertiliser we bought, as a Government, and that is what we distributed.

I thank you, Sir.

RECONSTRUCTION OF MAKUKU BASIC SCHOOL IN LUENA CONSTITUENCY

357. Mr Milupi (Luena) asked the Minister of Education when Makuku Basic School in Luena Parliamentary Constituency, which was built in 1934 using pole and mud, would be reconstructed using modern materials.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the tender for the construction of Makuku Basic School was advertised and evaluated. The contract is yet to be awarded to the contractor after approval by the ministry’s Procurement Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, when this programme came into effect about two years ago, priority was to be given to schools that were constructed many years ago and Makuku Basic School in Western Province happens to be the second oldest school. Why was it not given priority by being among the first to be reconstructed?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, we have given priority to many schools and this is not the only old school. In fact, out of ninety-one schools that were built before 1964, forty of them are in Western Province, but we are reconstructing them district by district. This year, we are reconstructing schools that are in Mongu District.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, we have been independent for over forty-four years. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what time-frame he is giving the nation within which we will have completely done away with mud and pole classrooms and replaced them with concrete built classrooms.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to assure this House that this Government is committed to that because it has made infrastructure development a priority in the ministry.

Sir, through you, I would like to inform the nation that, this year alone, we are constructing 2,500 classrooms. This shows that we are committed, as a Government, to ensuring that we replace the pole and mud classrooms with permanent structures.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

EXPECTED NATIONAL PRODUCTION OF MAIZE, WHEAT AND RICE

358. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) what the expected national production of the following crops during the forthcoming harvest season was:

(i) maize

(ii) wheat; and

(iii) rice; and

(b) when the price of fertiliser would be reduced.

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, a combined team of Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and Central Statistical Office (CSO) staff is currently in the field (March to April 2009) undertaking the Crop Forecasting Survey (CFS) in all the districts of the country. This is aimed at, among other things, determining the expected production and area under cultivation of the major staple food and cash crops including maize, wheat and rice during the 2008/2009 agricultural season. Therefore, the official estimates of specific crop production, together with the national food balance sheet would be ready around mid-May 2009.

However, it is generally expected that maize production for the 2008/2009 agricultural season will be higher than the previous season. This is according to the February 2009 District Crop and Livestock Monitoring Report and the increase in the quantity of inputs distributed and beneficiaries from 125,000 to 200,000 under the FSP during the 2008/2009 agricultural season compared to the previous season. On the other hand, in some districts like Shang’ombo which have experienced water logging and floods, maize production will be adversely affected.

The Government does not have control over prices of fertiliser in the national or global liberalised economy. However, as a short-term measure, the Government, through the FSP, has been intervening to cushion small-scale farmers from exorbitant prices of fertiliser.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just stated that the Government has no control over fertiliser prices. May I know what plans have been put in place so that prices are not compromised? What is the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) doing to assist rice farmers countrywide?

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, we have put a programme in place for the FSP so that our small-scale farmers can benefit. In fact, this House allocates money to the FRA so that it buys maize from our farmers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, is the Government considering changing the name of the Fertiliser Support Programme to Agriculture Support Programme (ASP) in order to accommodate the growing of other crops? Why has the Government, through the Public Procurement Authority (PPA), considered the…

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. I hope it is procedural.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I rarely stand on points of order. I only do so when something is very serious. Last week, in your absence, the former hon. Member of Parliament for Kasama Central moved a Motion on the Floor of this House. I wondered whether the Motion was relevant to this House or he was just giving a farewell speech. I am, therefore, very touched that the hon. Members who left this House without giving us a farewell speech is in the gallery.

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development has raised a point of order referring to the former hon. Member of Parliament and to a visitor in the Public Gallery. In this House, we do not discuss persons, whether former hon. Members or not, who cannot defend themselves. We do not make reference to visitors.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Before, we used to call them strangers …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … in the Public Gallery. They are here to listen to the hon. Members’ debate, to be seen, not to be heard and not to be referred to. Therefore, the point of order is declined.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Chinsali was raising a follow-up question.

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted, I wanted to learn from the hon. Minister why the Government, through the PPA, has considered only Nyiombo and Omnia Fertiliser to be the distributors of fertiliser, and yet they are the most expensive suppliers of fertiliser to the Government.

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, in response to the first question regarding whether we are considering changing the name Fertiliser Support Programme to Agriculture Support Programme, discussions are on-going and when they are completed, the House will be availed with that information. As for the issue of picking on Nyiombo and Omnia Fertiliser, I think this was based on experience. They have been in the business for a long time.

Mr Kambwili: Corruption!

Mr Kalenga: I am not aware that they are the most expensive distributors. I will, therefore, need time to investigate.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, welcome back.

Sir, the hon. Deputy Minister, in his reply, has stated that he cannot give the projected production for the coming season because his officers are in the field to assess. At the same time, he stated that production is going to be higher. What is the basis of the prognosis that we expect to produce more when he has not received any figures from his officers?

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, that is the traditional way of answering questions in this House.

Interruptions

Mr Kalenga: These answers were even provided in the last sitting. The current information that I have at the ministry shows that the total maize production in the 2008 and 2009 seasons has been estimated at 188,773 metric tonnes. Rice production was estimated at 41,929 metric tonnes while wheat production has been projected at 195,000 metric tonnes for the 2008 and 2009 seasons.

I thank you, Mr Speaker:

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, as indicated by the hon. Minister, indeed, the price of fertiliser is very high. May I find out from the hon. Minister when they are going to promote the growing of natural fertiliser like the one which is being showcased by exhibitors from Mwense so that, at least, we can reduce the price of fertiliser in this country?

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member is debating.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, on a point of order.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, it is very clear that the first answer given to us by the hon. Minister was out of date by about four months because he was projecting that we would have the answer by May and it is now July. Meanwhile, he gave the actual up-to-date figures in answer to the supplementary question because he was interrogated. Therefore, is he in order to give us historical projections and data and only come later with the current data? Surely, is he in order not to give us the latest information available to his ministry?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Lusaka Central is raising a very valid point of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The Chair listened very carefully to the written answer or the first answer he gave which, now, we understand is historical. Subsequently, indeed, he did give the estimated figures for the current season. He was not in order to do that because had he not been persuaded by the supplementary questions, the House would have lost the correct answer which he gave subsequently.

I would like to remind the hon. Members of the Front Bench, the Cabinet and the Deputy Ministers, to be very serious in the manner they handle questions. If you have the correct answer, give it right away and let supplementary questions be given on the correct answer. If you have no answer at all, say so and there is a way we follow up such answers which are not given, of course.

The hon. Minister was not in order because he nearly denied this House the correct information which is useful to the people whom you represent and for statisticians as well. Does the hon. Member who was attempting to ask a supplementary question still want to continue debating?

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, given the indication that fertiliser is very expensive, what is the ministry doing to encourage the growing of natural fertiliser like the one being showcased at the Agricultural and Commercial Show by exhibitors from Mwense? This way, more people can have access to this cheap fertiliser.

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, we will try to integrate this programme into our programmes in future.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister indicated that the Government intervenes to cushion the impact of the high price of fertiliser. Last year, the President decreed that fertiliser from the FSP would be K50, 000. Can the hon. Minister confirm that, this year, fertiliser will be sold at the same price?

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, as I stated earlier, discussions are underway and once they are concluded, the public will be availed with the information.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene: Mr Speaker, from the hon. Minister’s response, the beneficiaries of the FSP are those who produce maize. Those that produce wheat are usually commercial farmers. I would like to find out from him when the Government will come up with a programme that will assist the people of Western Province, who have been producing a lot of rice, so that they also benefit from this Government.

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, as I indicated earlier, we are trying to expand our programme by including other crops instead of the current FSP programme which specifically deals with maize.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, in the hon. Minister’s response on when his ministry would give the guidelines, he indicated that they were still working on them. May I have clarification on why the ministry has given instructions to the districts to make this month-end the deadline for farmers to make their advance payments?

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are not aware that we have started receiving payments from the farmers. We have not yet finished the programme and the modalities on how farmers will access the fertiliser have not yet been put in place.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, taking into account the fluctuating prices of fertiliser, which are usually linked to oil prices, is the Government considering developing the phosphate deposits in Petauke and other places as a way of reducing the price of fertiliser. Developing those deposits will definitely reduce the price of fertiliser by over half the current prices.

Mr Kalenga: Mr Speaker, the ministry has no immediate plans to develop those deposits. However, if there are any investors and if the hon. Member would like to venture into that, they are more than welcome to do so.

I thank you, Sir.

COMPLETION OF NYIMBA FARMERS TRAINING CENTRE AND NDAKE AGRICULTURAL CAMP IN NYIMBA DISTRICT

359. Mr Tembo (Nyimba) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives when construction works at Nyimba Farmers Training Centre and Ndake Agricultural Camp in Nyimba District would be completed.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker, the construction of Nyimba Farmers Training Centre will be completed by mid-next year. The total budgetary requirement for the completion is K600 million, which has been provided for in the 2009 Budget.  As of May, 2009, a sum of K150 million had been released.

Mr Speaker, the construction of four new camp houses at Ndake Agricultural Camp has been completed and the houses have since been occupied.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Next question.

Hon. Member: He is not in the House.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Mfuwe is not in the House. Question 360 has lapsed.

_________

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE LEGAL PRACTIONERS (Amendment) BILL, 2009

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Legal Practitioners Act, Cap. 30 of the Laws of Zambia, among other things, sets out the professional and academic qualifications necessary for the admission of a person to the roll of legal practitioners, regulates the removal from and restoration to the roll of legal practitioners, the issuance of practicing certificates and empowers the President to confer, upon persons, the honour and dignity of State Counsel.

Mr Speaker, currently, under the Act, a person can only be admitted as a legal practitioner if the person is a holder of a degree in law obtained from the University of Zambia (UNZA) or from a university outside the Republic approved by the Council of the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE) and whose degree in law is recognised by UNZA as academically equivalent to an UNZA Degree in that subject. The Act also requires the person to attend a course of Post-Graduate study required by the Council of ZIALE and approved by ZIALE and to be duly certified as having fulfilled the requirements of such a course by the Director of ZIALE institute before being admitted as a legal practitioner.

Consequently, while the Act recognises degrees in law obtained from foreign universities and approved by the Council of ZIALE, the Act does not recognise degrees in law obtained from local universities other than UNZA. This prevents persons who hold degrees in law obtained from other universities from attending the post-graduate course provided by ZIALE and required by the Council of ZIALE for a person to be admitted as a legal practitioner.

Consequently, persons who hold law degrees from other local universities are prevented from qualifying to practice as advocates of the High Court of Zambia. It is, therefore, necessary to amend the Act to cure this anomaly so that students who have obtained law degrees from local universities, other than UNZA, registered in accordance with the university Act, 1999, and whose programmes have been accredited by the Council of ZIALE may be admitted to ZIALE and, upon satisfying the requirements of the Act, to the Zambian Bar.

 The accreditation of the programmes offered by other universities will ensure that persons who are admitted to ZIALE are appropriately trained and qualified.

Mr Speaker, finally, the Bill seeks to amend the Act so as to empower the President to confer upon a person appointed as Director of Public Prosecution, the honour and dignity of State Counsel. Currently, only the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General are, upon appointment, conferred with the honour and dignity of State Counsel by the President.

Mr Speaker, from the foregoing, it is clear that the Bill is not controversial. It is very progressive and timely. I urge hon. Members of this august House to support it.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to brief this august House on matters pertaining to the Legal Practitioners (Amendment) Bill, 2009, which was referred to your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender matters on 14th July, 2009 for scrutiny.
Sir, your Committee were determined to consult widely in order to enrich the consultation process on this very important Bill. Your Committee invited various stakeholders to make both written and oral submissions before them. Notwithstanding the brevity of time, your Committee received good responses from the stakeholders and I trust that hon. Members will find the report useful as they debate the Bill.

Mr Speaker, before I highlight the contents of the report, let me state that your Committee were in total support of the proposed amendment Bill.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, the intention of the proposed amendments is to formulate legislation in keeping with the need to revise the professional and academic qualifications for legal practitioners and also recognise the rank and dignity of the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Sir, the witnesses of your Committee all registered support for the Bill. In doing so, however, they brought a number of concerns to the attention of your Committee. The concerns are recorded in your Committee’s report for the consideration of hon. Members of this House as they debate the Bill.

Sir, your Committee observe that, currently, the Act is not only discriminatory and against the Constitution of Zambia, but is also archaic as it does not adequately respond to the current education environment pertaining to the training of lawyers in the country.

Sir, some of the contentious issues your Committee were confronted with were the use of the words “May” in Section 11 (1), “Approved” and “Academically Equivalent” in Section 11 (1) ( c).

Sir, they are also concerned that the proposed Bill seeks to confer the rank of State Counsel of Zambia on the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, but the opening statement precludes the current holder of the office. Your Committee contend that this should not be the case.

To this effect, Sir, your Committee propose that:

(a) in Clause 2 (1), the word “May” should be replaced with the word “shall”;

(b) in Clause 2 (1) (c), the word “Approved” should be replaced with  the word “Recognised”;

(c) in Clause 2 (1) ( c), the words “Academically Equivalent” should be replaced with the words “Substantially Similar”; and

(d) in Clause 4 of the Bill, the proposed Section 16 should read, “A person who, on or before the commencement  of this Act, holds the Office of Attorney-General, Solicitor-General or Director of Public Prosecutions, shall, upon commencement of this Act be conferred with the rank and dignity of a State Counsel of Zambia by the President.”

Sir, your Committee would like to urge the House to consider the contents of their report as they proceed with the Bill.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, your Committee wish to record and express their appreciation to witnesses who made submissions before them.

Finally, I wish to commend hon. Members of your Committee and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for their dedication to duty during the consideration of the Legal Practitioners (Amendment) Bill.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, in supporting the amendment, I wish to register one observation which, I think, is very important. The creation of the accreditation committee is very important. There is need for legal practitioners to be registered and controlled properly.

Sir, this particular field is also becoming lucrative. For example, just like we have qualified doctors, we also have quack doctors who are in the profession to rush and trap money. We have seen situations, especially in rural areas, where offices have been opened by well respected lawyers, and yet they are managed by unqualified people who do all sorts of things to steal from and deceive the people.

Sir, we have had cases where some people have had their animals taken away because people do not understand that the person who claims to be a lawyer is, actually, not.

Mr Speaker, I am saying that, perhaps, the accreditation should be enforced properly so that we do not have too much mushrooming of, supposedly, legal people running round and getting people’s money.

Sir, we have had certain practices at courts where clerks of court also behave like lawyers. They can simply decide to draft a document and go to the village and tell someone that they are supposed to pay a given amount of money as decided by them. The people have suffered so much because of lack of knowledge. Perhaps, now we can capture all the people claiming to have obtained degrees from universities other than UNZA and make them pass through ZIALE for accreditation. This way, we will know, exactly, who the proper people are. We do not want to have people masquerading as lawyers when they are not.

Mr Speaker, I, therefore, support this amendment and I would like to urge lawyers to put qualified people in their rural offices because people are suffering. They are being cheated and their money is being stolen.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the Bill on the Floor and I will be very brief in my contribution. Indeed, it has been long overdue for the Government to amend this Act to allow students from other universities within Zambia to be admitted to the Bar.

Sir, the country has been encouraging private individuals and institutions to set up universities. Therefore, denying the graduates from these universities an opportunity to be admitted to the Bar was against the spirit of encouraging the private sector to go into this industry.

Some of the graduates from universities like the Zambia Open University and Cavendish University have ended up working in neighbouring countries instead of developing Zambia. This is the reason that I support this Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the House for the support rendered to your Committee’s report. The amendments proposed by Hon. Sikota are innocent and acceptable to us.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 29th July, 2009.

THE ZAMBIA LAW DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Sir, this Bill seeks to amend the Zambia Law Development Commission Act, Cap. 32 of the Laws of Zambia, so as to revise the composition of the commission and the quorum of the meetings of the commission.

This Bill seeks to amend Section 5 of the Act in order to make the membership of the commission more representative and inclusive. The proposed new members include a representative of a law school at a private university, a representative of a research institute nominated by the minister responsible for education, a representative of the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR), a representative of the National Science and Technology Council and a representative of the National Arts Council.

The amendment to this Act is also necessary in order to revise the provisions relating to the quorum for the meetings because it has been difficult to attain the quorum stipulated by Section 9 of the Act which provides in Sub-section (5) that two-thirds of the commissioners shall form a quorum at any meeting of the commission. This provision has made it difficult for the commission to meet for the transaction of its business as this threshold is too high. The revision of the Act with respect to the quorum has also been necessitated by the change in the composition of the commission. The revised composition will ensure increased diversity in the expertise provided to the commission and improve the exercise of the functions of the commission.
Sir, this Bill is not controversial. It is progressive and I, therefore, urge hon. Members of this august House to support it.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity, yet again, to brief this august House on matters pertaining to the Zambia Law Development Commission (Amendment) Bill, 2009, which was referred to your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender Matters on 14th July, 2009, for scrutiny.

Sir, your Committee were determined to consult widely in order to enrich the consultation process on this very important Bill. Your Committee invited various stakeholders to make both written and oral submissions before them.

 Sir, your Committee received a good response from the stakeholders and I trust that hon. Members will find the report useful as they debate the Bill.

Mr Speaker, the intention of the proposed amendments is to strengthen the operations of the Zambia Law Development Commission, whose mandate is law reform, by revising the composition and quorum of meetings of the commission and provide for matters connected with and incidental to the foregoing.

Sir, your Committee welcome the enactment of this piece of legislation as the increase in the composition will result in a more representative body. Furthermore, the revision of the quorum will enable the commission to hold regular and special meetings to improve the law reform process.

Mr Speaker, although the witnesses to your Committee registered support for the Bill, they brought a number of concerns to the attention of your Committee. The concerns are recorded in your Committee’s report for the consideration of the hon. Members of this House as they debate the Bill.

Sir, some of the stakeholders were of the view that some of the institutions proposed to be part of the Commission would not add value to the functions or mandate of the Commission.

Mr Speaker, some of the concerns raised include the following:

(a) nominations in Clause 2 (1) (b), (c) and (d) should be done by the various institutions, but approval should be done by the minister;

(b) amendment in Clause 2 (1) (e) should take into consideration the fact that Permanent Secretaries already have too many meetings to attend; and

(c) the inclusion of Clause 2 (1) (l) was unnecessary as this would increase the number of commissioners to a greater number than necessary, thereby increasing the costs on the commission in terms of sitting allowances.

Sir, your Committee were of the view that the number of members from the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) should be increased from the current one to two or three, and these should be nominated by LAZ. At the same time, the provision for two persons to be appointed by the minister should be removed as there are already two members representing the Ministry of Justice as provided at Clause 2 (1) (e) and (f).

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, your Committee wish to record and express their appreciation to the witnesses who made submissions before them.

Finally, I wish to sincerely commend the hon. Members of your Committee and the Clerk of the National Assembly’s Office for working tirelessly during the consideration of the Zambia Law Development Commission (Amendment) Bill.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I thank the House for the overwhelming support for this Bill.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 30th July, 2009.{mospagebreak}

THE ZAMBIA INSTITUTE OF ADVANCED LEGAL EDUCATION (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education Act, Cap. 49 of the Laws of Zambia, establishes the Council of the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE) and sets out its functions. The Act provides that the council shall, among other functions, approve qualifications of students with law degrees equivalent to the law degree offered at any university in Zambia for purposes of admission to ZIALE. Notwithstanding this power, the council does not have a specialised body to carry out this function. It is, therefore, imperative to amend the Act so as to establish a specialised body to carry out this function if the quality of education of persons to be admitted to ZIALE is to be assured.

 In this regard, the Bill proposes that an accreditation committee comprising, among others, a representative of the Examinations Council of Zambia (ECZ), a dean and one senior lecturer of a private university, a representative of the National Institute of Public Administration (NIPA) and a representative from the Zambia Centre of Accountancy Studies (ZCAS), be established.

Mr Speaker, the Act also stipulates the composition of the council. However, the current composition is not fully representative of stakeholders in advanced legal education. It is, therefore, necessary to revise the composition of the council so as to make it more representative by incorporating, for instance, representatives of private universities registered under the Universities Act, 1999. This move is in line with the Government’s policy to include the private sector in different areas of national development.

Mr Speaker, one of the functions of the council is to provide post-graduate courses in legal studies and to set and hold examinations in such courses as the council considers necessary. Notwithstanding this function, the Act does not regulate the conduct of persons employed by the council and who are engaged in the conduct of any examinations or those handling examination papers. Further, the Act does not prohibit the unlawful possession or control of any examination paper. Following reports of leakages of examination papers at ZIALE, it has become imperative for the law to provide for these aspects to prevent leakages of examination papers. To this effect, the Bill proposes that a person performing the work of the council or who is engaged in the conduct of an examination or in handling examination papers should take an oath of secrecy.

Mr Speaker, the Bill also proposes the prohibition of certain acts such as the disclosure of examination questions, unauthorised possession of examination papers or information, loss or misuse of examination papers and reckless or negligent loss of an examination paper or information relating to the contents of an examination paper.

The Bill also proposes that a person engaged in the conduct of examinations or performing work connected with examinations and who is directly or indirectly interested, in a private capacity, in an examination or examination paper or if the spouse, child, friend or relative of that person is a candidate in an examination, should disclose such an interest before the commencement of that person’s duties.

The Bill further seeks to empower the council to suspend or nullify the whole or any part of an examination where the council is satisfied that there has been an irregularity in the course of such examination. The Bill also provides for the council to nullify the results of a candidate where there is reasonable cause to believe that the candidate’s examination results have been obtained by irregular means.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is progressive and timely. It is not controversial and I, therefore, urge the hon. Members of this august House to support it.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me yet another opportunity to brief this august House on matters pertaining to the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (Amendment) Bill, 2009, which was referred to your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender Matters on 14th July, 2009, for scrutiny.

Mr Speaker, your Committee invited various stakeholders to make both written and oral submissions before them. Notwithstanding the brevity of time, your Committee received good responses from the stakeholders and I trust that hon. Members will find the report useful as they debate the Bill.

Mr Speaker, from the outset, your Committee wish to state that they support the enactment of this Bill. The witnesses to your Committee were in support of the Bill. However, they brought a number of concerns to the attention of your Committee. The concerns are recorded in your Committee’s report for the consideration of the hon. Members of this House as they debate the Bill.

Mr Speaker, one of the contentious issues your Committee were confronted with was the creation of an accreditation committee. They noted that the proposed amendment did not provide for the process of accreditation in form of criteria and methodology to be used by the committee.

Mr Speaker, the stakeholders, therefore, proposed that the provision on the format for accreditation should be done through a statutory instrument by the Attorney-General’s Chamber to create awareness to the stakeholders. To this effect, your Committee propose the following amendments on the accreditation committee:

(a) nominations from the private and public universities should be done by the respective institutions and approved by the minister;

(b) Clause 5(1)(h) should be replaced with Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants;

(c) the accreditation committee should not be part of ZIALE, but should be a totally independent body, and this body should also be responsible for vetting qualifications from foreign universities as well; and

(d) regulations for the accreditation committee should be provided under subsidiary legislation and the committee should be empowered to issue clearance certificates.

Mr Speaker, stakeholders were of the view that, on the offences relating to examinations, the following amendments should be considered:

(a) in Clause 6 (20) E (1), the scope was too wide as it would be difficult to define the word ‘friend’;

(b) Clause 6 (20) F (2), a candidate whose results have been nullified should not be allowed to rewrite the examinations afterwards as a deterrent measure; and

(c) on Clause 6 (20) D and (20) E, the failure to report the loss of the examination papers and the failure to disclose interest is what should be criminalised and not the loss of the papers themselves.

Sir, your Committee further recommend that the accreditation committee should be set up as soon as possible to monitor and evaluate the qualifications and training institutions for purposes of enrolment to ZIALE so as to avoid lowering the standard of education at ZIALE.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, your Committee wish to record and express their appreciation to the witnesses who made submissions before it.

Finally, I wish to commend members of your Committee and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for its dedication to duty during the consideration of the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (Amendment) Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the Bill and I promise to be very brief. In fact, this amendment should have been conducted at the time when the education sector was being liberalised in Zambia in the early 1990s. 
Mr Speaker, Mary Engelbreit, one of the greatest philosophers of the 17th century, said, “There is need to heal the past, to live the present and to dream the future.” The business of the House, this afternoon, is very important since it is trying to align itself with the present situation, where the country has recorded important advancements in the area of education. At the time of independence, we had very few secondary schools and no university at all, until in late 1966 when we had the first university. No wonder the Act which is being amended, today, only allowed students from that university and those who came from universities outside Zambia to enter ZIALE.

Mr Speaker, I promised to be very brief and indeed, the recommendations brought out by your Committee should be fully supported especially the one on page 5, under Accreditation Committee, (iii), where the reports says:

“The Accreditation Committee should not be part of the ZIALE Act, but should be a totally independent body. This body should also be responsible for vetting other qualifications from foreign universities as well. The body should have general and not specific power.”

 This recommendation is very important. In view of the setting up of a national qualification …

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, before we went on break, I had just started applauding the committee’s wonderful work, especially the recommendation that a national qualifications committee should immediately be put in place. This national qualifications committee will be in charge of all the private and public universities. This committee will be accrediting the type of education that these universities will be providing, especially in relation to law.

Mr Speaker, another recommendation that should be supported is the one which is on page 6, under Committee’s Observations and Recommendations, that ZIALE should come up with a committee which will only be looking at the crop of law students that will be admitted at its institution rather than what was suggested that ZIALE should also accredit the universities providing law studies to various students.

Mr Speaker, this is a wonderful move that the country is undertaking. It must be appreciated by every one of us that private institutions, be it secondary schools or universities are, indeed, doing a commendable job in as far as providing education is concerned. All of us are agreeable that private institutions in this country, including universities, are doing very well compared, let us be very factual, to public education institutions. For example, the public university in Lusaka is full of disturbances. There are strikes time after time, but we have never heard of a strike being staged at a private university. This is why private schools and universities are providing credible education to our young people and even elderly people like me.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, thank you very much.

 I want to begin by thanking your Committee for the excellent piece of work. It was appropriate that it was chaired by a prominent lawyer and we could see the quality of work that has been produced. I also want to thank the House for its support.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.
Committee on Thursday, 30th July, 2009.

THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Amendment) BILL, 2009

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for according me this chance to give a policy statement on the proposed Bill to amend the Local Government Act to allow for the establishment of the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) and to increase the tenure of office for mayors and their deputies and chairpersons and their vices from the current one year to two and half years.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to thank your Committee for tabling this wonderful report for consideration by the hon. Members. The report has given me an insight on how members of the public feel about the reintroduction of the commission.

Mr Speaker, from the onset, I wish to request this House to consider my submission and allow for the establishment of this commission since all the witnesses, as indicated by your Committee’s report, supported its reintroduction and the extension of the tenure of office of our civic leaders. The introduction of this commission is meant to support the implementation of the National Decentralisation Policy and is not contradicting it.

Mr Speaker, permit me to give a brief background on the need to establish the commission. I will start with the challenges of the Local Government system. Over the years and since the abolishment of the commission in 1995, local authorities faced challenges despite the councils being given the mandate to employ and dismiss staff. I shall now look at some of the major challenges councils face in the recruitment process.

Mr Speaker, most councils have failed to attract qualified personnel to manage their institutions due to lack of resources for both salaries and operations through their conditions of service. This situation has negatively affected the running of councils effectively as qualified employees, consistently, leave for better paying jobs. As a result, some councils have resorted to employing or promoting ill-qualified personnel.

Another challenge is the negative image of councils, generally. Developments in the local government system over the last decade have resulted in considerable loss of confidence in the system by the public. Even in cases where councils have resources to support new or existing positions, some qualified members of the public remain doubtful about taking up jobs in the sector fearing that councils may be unable to fulfill their contractual obligations. Only when desperate do well qualified citizens consider job offers from councils, especially those from district councils in rural locations.

Mr Speaker, there are also poor remuneration packages paid to councillors. This aspect has continued to affect the performance of councils in that the system is unable to capture qualified and dedicated workers who are able to recruit, motivate and supervise qualified personnel in the councils. As a result, persons without formal education are sometimes elected to run these institutions. It is quite common that councillors of low calibre and with poor academic qualifications usually opt to recruit persons with similar educational backgrounds to theirs so that they can control them.

Mr Speaker, even where councillors employ qualified staff, there is a likelihood for staff to take unfair advantage of the humble standing of councillors and manipulate administrative systems to suit themselves at the expense of development.

Mr Speaker, the other challenge noticed in councils in their current state is the aspect of tribalism and nepotism. Most councillors use their power to employ their relatives, tribesmen and friends at the expense of qualified personnel. This arrangement retards development as the employees are not employed on merit. The House may wish to know that in some cases where these vices have been noticed, the Government has had to resort to suspending the erring councillors.

Sir, most councils in the country have failed to retain qualified personnel and, as such, the Government has been unable to build capacity in the areas where the staff are un-trainable. Efforts to correct this situation have often resulted in costly dismissals of staff who were not employed based on merit much to the detriment of the service delivered and loss of confidence in the Local Government service system.

Mr Speaker, there is also the issue of the local government appeals boards. The local government appeals boards which are established by the Government in each province only deal with matters of dismissals, promotion, demotion and other disciplinary cases from councils and not staff recruitment, which is a key component in local government.

Mr Speaker, I will now turn my attention to specific issues raised by your Committee.
Firstly, I will look at the resentment by councillors of the loss of power to hire and fire employees. Decentralisation inevitably calls for a change in the way our public sector operates. We need to put power and resources in those areas which will yield tangible results for our people. In the course of implementation of this policy, the central Government will give away some powers to the councils and equally the councils will have to do the same wherever necessary.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Tetamashimba: The power to hire and fire is currently held by councils, but they have failed to use it effectively. The Government will not be stopped from getting power just to avoid the resentment of those to whom it was entrusted.

Mr Speaker, secondly, let me outline how the commission will operate. The commission will operate like any other public commission and will be on permanent basis until such a time when its operations will be reviewed. The commission will be funded by the Government and its terms of reference will be drawn by the Government and subject to review from time to time. Like other commissions, the commission will tour the country to resolve personnel related problems in all the seventy-two councils and, as such, there will be no delay in disposing of disciplinary and other cases.

In the spirit of decentralisation, the Government will ensure the success of the commission by, among other means, harmonising and making financial and other resources available to councils to ensure the sustained implementation of the district development programmes so as to keep their staff and communities actively engaged in the provision of basic services and governance of their areas.

Sir, the operations of the commission will be supported by other measures such as enhanced monitoring and evaluation of the performance of councils by the national and provincial levels as well as communities through the area development committees.

Mr Speaker, as indicated above, the introduction of the Local Government Service Commission should not be perceived as a contradiction to the Decentralisation Policy. My ministry is aware that it is argued by proponents of this view that a more appropriate measure to take in order to resolve the difficulties in councils lies in the immediate restoration of a sound fiscal position within the local government system. Whereas my ministry acknowledges this view in part, the broad position of the ministry on this matter is formed by the wholesome awareness that such a sound fiscal position cannot be immediately restored to the majority of councils owing to the poor financial and human resource position that most of them happen to be in at the present time.

My ministry realises that such restoration will constitute a process commencing with a centrally determined recruitment and deployment system which then gives way to the position where councils gradually resume responsibility on the basis of progress they make against a systematic appraisal of their institutional performance.

Mr Speaker, the primary essence of the Local Government Service Commission is to equip all councils with qualified staff before fiscal decentralisation is undertaken. It is a fact that fiscal decentralisation cannot work where there is no qualified staff to manage the funds released by the Government to those councils. Therefore, the Local Government Service Commission must be viewed as part of the process of implementing the Decentralisation Policy.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, in addition, the Local Government Service Commission will serve the purpose of facilitating the smooth transfer of personnel serving in Central Government and whose jobs are moving to councils while, equally, safeguarding their accrued benefits. It has come to the attention of my ministry, through the various consultative processes we have held with various stakeholders in Central Government and other service commissions, that this is a major concern of officers likely to be affected by devolution.

The mere transfer of funds to councils without appropriate staff will not address this concern. Rather, it would more likely than not, result in the loss of such funds. It is clear, therefore, that at this point in time, the commission is an essential catalyst of decentralisation.

Mr Speaker, councils are quasi-Government institutions and, therefore, officers employed by the Local Government Service Commission will be subject to rules and regulations governing the Public Service. Therefore, it is not foreseeable that officers employed by the commission will not pay allegiance to their local authorities.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the Government is committed to ensuring that the commission succeeds with its obligation of bringing qualified and competent staff to run the councils more efficiently and progressively.

Sir, the Government acknowledges that without an immediate solution to the current problem of emoluments to councils, the setting up of the commission will not yield desired results. To this end, the Government will not only set up the commission, but also provide grants to councils to cater specifically for salaries for all their employees. However, it should also be noted that the councils will continue complementing the Government in providing funds for other emoluments to such categories as councillors from their own resources.

Mr Speaker, I want to inform the House that some councils have not paid their staff for up to forty months because of insufficient resources, hence, the need for the Local Government Service Commission which will be funding the salaries.

Mr Speaker, the amendment I propose seeks to introduce a unified Local Government Service Commission which will harmonise the employment aspects in councils. The objective of the amendment is to vest the power to employ the staff of councils in the Local Government Service Commission. The Local Government Service Commission will, therefore, seek to correct the anomalies identified above in order to restore a vibrant, effective and efficient local government system by ensuring the deployment of qualified staff to all local authorities countrywide and paying them salaries in order to provide services to the people through the councils.

It is further intended that the introduction of a unified local government system will improve the Government and public confidence in the use of public funds as qualified and competent people will be employed to manage these institutions.

Mr Kambwili: Ministry of Health kwaliba …

Mr Tetamashimba: Councils that had previously failed to recruit qualified personnel will be assisted by the commission to fill up positions not only through recruitment, but also through transfers from one council to another.

Sir, it is further envisaged that the commission will facilitate the implementation of the National Decentralisation Policy as employees in other public commissions will be under the same employer and would, therefore, be transferred or seconded from one service to another without loss of accrued benefits.

The establishment of the Local Government Service Commission will also cure the abuse of power, especially with regard to the dismissal of officers without proper cause. This, will, in turn, result in job security.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to reiterate that the Government remains highly committed to the vision of empowering the people through the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Tetamashimba: The Government will ensure that it does not withhold any function, power or resource that is scheduled to be devolved to councils without due cause. However, it must be understood that in this process, the Government will exercise prudence in order to ensure that the assignment of functions is not mismatched with the necessary capacity to perform them.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to state, categorically, that the creation of this commission is not intended to unbalance the structure of the Central Government by concentrating responsibility within the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

According to the Decentralisation Policy and the proposed Decentralisation Implementation Plan (DIP), the implementation arrangements for the decentralisation process will ensure that all sector ministries play their due roles in delivering development to our people and ensuring that the Central Government operates more efficiently than ever before.

Finally, I wish to note before this House, yet again, that the coming into operation of the Local Government Service Commission is essential for the successful commencement of the implementation of the more practical elements of decentralisation.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Tetamashimba: I, therefore, urge the House to consider this Bill favourably since the Government intends to make progress regarding the implementation of this important, but much delayed policy, starting next year.

Mr Speaker, it is, therefore, unfortunate that your Committee recommended the withdrawal of this Bill despite witnesses supporting the reintroduction of the Local Government Service Commission. The Government, as reported in your Committee’s report, gave its position on the payment of salaries and wages to the council employees and, therefore, your Committee cannot base its recommendation for the withdrawal of this well meaning Bill on the issue of salaries, which the Government ably clarified to them.

On the extension of the term of office for mayors, Mr Speaker, this second amendment seeks to extend the term of office for mayors and their deputies, chairpersons and vices from the current one year to two and half years. The amendment also seeks to limit the number of terms for the mayor and deputy chairperson to only one term.

Mr Kambwili: Why?

Mr Tetamashimba: This means that at the expiry of the term of office, any person who had previously held the named positions will not be eligible to stand. History has shown that elected civic leaders usually take some time to learn the operations of the councils and that one year in office for these leaders is mostly spent learning without delivering meaningful development.

Mr Speaker, I beg for the favourable indulgence of the House on these two items since we have made it, categorically, clear that we shall now be paying the local government council workers in all the seventy-two districts effective January next year.

I thank you very much, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, as I deliver your Committee’s report, I wish to take note of the inherent contradictions on the part of the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, in accordance with their terms of reference, your Committee were on the 4th July, 2009 tasked by the House to scrutinise the Local Government (Amendment) Bill, 2009.  The intention of the Bill is to vest power to employ the staff of councils in the Local Government Service Commission.

Your Committee, in considering the Bill, requested written submissions from various stakeholders who also appeared before them and made oral submissions. A total of nine organisations representing diverse interests appeared before your Committee. Your Committee wish to thank all those who appeared before them for doing so even at short notice.

Sir, let me now highlight some of the observations of your Committee. Your Committee wish to report that almost all witnesses that appeared before them were in support of the reintroduction of the Local Government Service.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: As I have stated, there is lack of clarity with regard to the issue of who will be responsible for paying the salaries and wages of employees of the commission. The view of your Committee is that the Local Government Commission will not succeed if the Central Government does not take up the responsibility of paying the wages and salaries as is the case with other service commissions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, you heard from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing that the councils will continue paying salaries in conjunction with the Central Government. Your Committee, has taken into account the contradiction of this statement and that of the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing who appeared before your Committee, who could only confirm that the Government will pay the salaries of senior employees and not other categories of council employees.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, that submission raised a serious concern for your Committee because it is in direct contradiction with the provisions of the Bill which seek to vest power to employ all council employees, including sweepers. They will be employed by the Local Government Service Commission.

Mr Speaker, another issue that raises concern is that relating to the creation of a body to centralise local government human resource functions when there have been pronouncements by the Government that the Decentralisation Policy will be implemented soon. It is the view of your Committee that the reintroduction of the commission is against the spirit of decentralisation …

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … and, hence, the need for a clear explanation on how this arrangement will work. Your Committee have difficulties in appreciating the view that the commission will be used to build capacity, especially without a corresponding mandate by the commission to pay its employees.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: In view of the foregoing, Mr Speaker, your Committee recommend that the Local Government (Amendment) Bill, 2009, be withdrawn forthwith and should not be passed until the Government has addressed the issue of funding salaries and wages for employees to be placed under the commission and other issues highlighted by your Committee.

 It would be useful to this House and the nation if the Government, through the Ex-Chequer, who is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, can clearly state its position on this matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: In conclusion, Mr Speaker, your Committee wish to express their gratitude to you for granting them the opportunity to scrutinise the Local Government (Amendment) Bill, 2009. They further thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for their unfailing assistance throughout their deliberations.

Mr Speaker, according to the Bill, the local authorities will no longer be employers and will have no mandate to pay council employees, hence, our concern. How can the Government now say that the councils will still continue to pay salaries and wages when they are not the employers?

I wish to thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill.

Mr Speaker,…

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kakoma: A point of jealousy is raised.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: A point of education.

Mr Kakoma: Switch off.

Mr Sichilima: Thank you, Mr Speaker. As you are aware, I have been very quiet this session.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: I rise on very serious point of order.

Mr Speaker, I wonder if it is in order for the PF Whip, the spokesperson and, indeed, the PF female hon. Members of Parliament, to keep quiet when their leader is misleading the nation and dragging Mr Speaker into politics of antagonism.

Sir, in The Post, of Saturday, 25th July, 2009, their leader was quoted as saying:

“Sata also charged that the Speaker of the National Assembly, Amusaa Mwanamwambwa, had flouted parliamentary standing orders by travelling out of the country when the House is sitting.

“In an interview, Sata said Speaker, Mwanamwambwa, had left the country in unexplained circumstances …

Interruptions

 “… when the House was in session.

“The standing orders of Parliament are that the Speaker only travels when Parliament is on recess. But because there is no justice minister in this country people do as they like. The Speaker has flouted parliamentary standing orders and he should explain. This woman [Deputy Speaker, Mutale Nalumango] is the one who has been running business for two weeks,” said Sata.

Mr Speaker, I am one of the oldest hon. Members of this House …

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: … and I have been following your good guidance. You have ruled before regarding this matter, but, of late, we have seen people coming to mislead this House. One such example is the statement that there is no hon. Minister of Justice when His Honour the Vice-President is the hon. Minister of Justice and Leader of Government Business in the House. He is credible and a State Counsel.

Sir, I, really, need your serious ruling because what I know is that when Parliament is in session, Mr Speaker cannot travel on personal duties, but can travel when the purpose of travel is related to parliamentary business. There are provisions for Mr Speaker to appoint the Deputy Speaker and Deputy Chairperson of Committees to be in that sea,t which means that the Speaker is represented. I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima laid the paper on the Table.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President has raised a very important point of order. However, as the House heard, he has quite ably …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … debated the point of order and those concerned have been educated accordingly.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Zambezi West was debating.
 
May he continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, the introduction of this Local Government Service Commission Amendment Bill has raised a lot of concerns. I have two or three matters of concern to raise. First of all, this Government is fond of implementing programmes in a haphazard manner. As you may be aware, this Government has been coming to this House and stating clearly that some of the proposals that we make on the Floor of this House cannot be implemented because they are part of the Constitution making process.  The establishment of the Local Government Service Commission is one of the recommendations of the Mung’omba Draft Report. We are told that we cannot do that until the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) concludes its work. However, I am surprised that even before the NCC debates this matter, the Government has picked one item out of the many recommendations that have been made by the Mung’omba Commission to bring to this House and make law.

Sir, this is what I call a haphazard way of running the Government. If, indeed, it is their intention that all the recommendations by the Mung’omba Commission are good, they should bring them for enactment rather than just picking things that suit them. If, indeed, they believe in the Constitution making process, then they should have waited for the conclusion of the NCC before bringing this piece of legislation and turning into law under a subsidiary law.

Mr Speaker, secondly, concerns have been raised regarding the payment of salaries and wages to the employees under the Local Government Service Commission. Although the hon. Minister has stated, not in a very categorical manner, that the Government would pay the salaries, he needs to bring an actual amendment to the law. There is a law which prohibits Central Government from paying salaries of council employees. Therefore, he cannot just here come and casually debate that the Government would pay when the law still prohibits the payment of such salaries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: If he is serious about the Central Government paying the salaries of Local Government employees, he must move an amendment so that we are all sure that he means what he is saying. Without that, he wants to mislead this august House to pass this Bill, and yet the Government will not pay because, in future, they will say that their hands are tied by the law.

Mr Speaker, it would be meaningless and illogical for this House to go ahead and amend the Local Government Act as well as establish the Local Government Service Commission to provide for the employment of the Local Government employees by this commission when they have no intention and capacity to pay them.

Mr Speaker, I would like to give you examples of workers of local authorities that have not been paid for many months. Just last week, there was a news item that workers at Mufumbwe District Council had not been paid their salaries for more than thirty months.

Hon. UPND Member: And the hon. Member of Parliament is there!

Mr Kakoma: Indeed, even employees at Zambezi District Council, Chavuma District Council, including the small councils that have a very weak revenue base, have not been paid their salaries for many months. At Zambezi District Council, the workers have not been paid for more than fourteen months. The grants that the hon. Minister is talking about have never been released to those councils. In many cases, even people that have been retired by local councils have not been paid their retirement benefits.

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order. Is it in order for Hon. Kakoma to elaborate the issue of over forty councils having not been paid for forty months when the hon. Minister clearly indicated that in this House? The hon. Member of Parliament keeps on deliberating the same issues which the hon. Minister has already articulated very well.

Mr Speaker, I need your very serious ruling.

Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services has raised a point of order on the debate by the hon. Member for Zambezi West. The hon. Member for Zambezi West would not be in order if he were not stating facts. However, if he is comfortable with the facts he is stating, he is in order and it is up to the hon. Minister to reply and clarify issues when he winds up.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your wise ruling.

Sir, the point I am making is that the workers in councils have not been paid for many months. The hon. Minister has confirmed that in forty councils, the workers have not been paid for more than forty months. The current law, as it stands, prohibits Central Government from paying salaries for council employees. Therefore, even if we had allowed this amendment to go through, the Central Government would not be legally bound to pay salaries for local authorities. We want a definite commitment by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, right now, in the presence of Mr Speaker, that he is going to bring an amendment alongside this proposed amendment to the Service Commissions and Local Government Acts to make it legal for the Central Government to start paying the salaries of all the workers in councils.

Sir, the contradiction that your Committee have observed is that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, through the Permanent Secretary, submitted that they would only pay senior staff and controlling officers that they would be posting to the various councils, and yet the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is saying that they will pay all workers. It will not be everybody. We want to hear it, again, whether the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is overruling the submission made by his Permanent Secretary to your Committee and that the Government’s stand is now that they are going to pay all employees of councils, including sweepers and drivers.

Sir, secondly, your Committee observed that even if the Government agrees to pay the salaries, there is still a provision in the law that states that pensions and gratuities will be paid by the councils. Since these employees will be shifted from local authorities to the Central Government, how then, are the councils going to be paying these gratuities and pensions to people that will no longer be their employees? How is that going to happen without actual amendments to the law to make even these other obligations payable by Central Government?

Mr Speaker, with that observation, I stand to support the recommendation of your Committee that if those amendments are not made, this Bill be withdrawn until Government clarifies those issues.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for this rare opportunity to add my voice to this very important Bill before us. Since I am speaking for the first time since your arrival, I want to say that we are very happy to see you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, from the onset, I want to state that I support the Bill to amend the Local Government Act…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … so as to vest powers to employ the staff of councils in the Local Government Service Commission because the re-establishment of the Local Government Service Commission is long overdue. I also support the idea that the term of office of Mayors and Council Chairpersons be extended from the current one year to two and a half years.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, the Bill before us is very important and I would like to urge my fellow hon. Members of Parliament to take it very seriously because it can make or break the entire Local Government system in the country.

Hon. Opposition Member: It is already broken!

Mrs Masebo: If it is broken, then it will be buried.

Mr Speaker, the idea to re-establish the Local Government Service Commission is very good. The reasons behind the re-establishment, as has been articulated by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, are correct.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Some of these include the failure by most the councils, especially in the rural areas, to attract qualified staff, the problem of nepotism and tribalism, not only by councillors, but even officers and leaders in issues of employment of council workers, the failure to retain qualified staff and decentralisation. Decentralisation requires qualified staff to implement the very core of decentralisation. You cannot achieve decentralisation when you have officers that have been employed based on tribe or political affiliation.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mrs Masebo: This underscores the reasons it is necessary and overdue that any reasonable Government must take the necessary steps to assist the Ministry of Local Government and Housing ensure that efficient and effective services are delivered to our people.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, from the way this Bill has been tabled by the Government, my worry is whether what the hon. Minister has said can, actually, help achieve those objectives.

  Mr Speaker, I would like my colleagues on your right and left to listen very carefully to what I have to say. First and foremost, the establishment of the Local Government Service Commission, through the Service Commissions Act, is a mistake. The Local Government Service Commission should have been created using the Local Government Act.

Mr Speaker, when you look at the Bills, you will notice two things. Firstly, there is the issue of amending the Local Government Act, and secondly, amending the Service Commissions Act. This action simply says that you wish to employ the workers in the local government, including town clerks, drivers and cleaners. In effect, you are making these employees part of the Public Service. It, therefore, follows that you must pay their salaries.

Mr Speaker, I would like to state that it is not possible, under the circumstances, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Not possible!

Mrs Masebo: … for the Central Government to take on the burden of paying council workers, including town clerks, drivers and cleaners. It will not work.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, in supporting this very important Bill, I would like to suggest that the Executive agrees to certain amendments as we come to the next stage. If this Bill goes through in the manner it has been presented, I can bet my neck that it will fail. Even the little local government system that you have in place now will no longer be there.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about salaries. This year, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has increased sitting allowances for councillors from about K250,000 or K210,000 to K510,000. Councils are paying this amount without any assistance from the Central Government. I would like to inform you that, at the moment, some of the councils are failing to pay this sitting allowance.

Hon. Opposition Members: True!

 Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, two days ago, the hon. Minister, through his Deputy Minister, when asked how much of the grants approved to go to the councils had been released, responded that there was none because of the credit crunch. This is despite the fact that we have approved the grants in this year’s Budget.

Mr Speaker, can you imagine a situation where a Bill is brought to the House, but it is not clear who is going to pay the salaries? It is just saying that it shall be done, and yet there is no provision to show this. Is this not a recipe for the destruction of the system?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, there is the issue of salaries. I support the idea of re-establishing the Local Government Service Commission. Even the Chairperson of the Committee mentioned that everyone who made submissions to your Committee supported this. The idea is good and is what the Government must do. However, how they do it is also important. If you do not do it properly, as I said earlier, you will lose even the little that you have. I do not think this is the intention of the Government. I know that the Government means well, but there is a loophole somewhere. There is lack of clarity and understanding of the issue and ...

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I do not have the right words and I do not want to use words that are unparliamentary. Therefore, I will drop it.

Ms Cifire: Just use, ‘sorry’.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, the Government needs to be very clear, not on the Floor of this House, but in the Act itself, on who they will employ. We want the Service Commission to employ key staff such as the town clerk, director of health, director of engineering and the lawyer. This is because a council in Samfya or Shang’ombo cannot attract a lawyer.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Masebo: Secondly, we want the rest of the staff in the councils to be employed by the councils themselves. This is what we want. We want the salaries for those key officers employed by the Local Government Service Commission to be paid by the Government through grant transfers to councils that cannot attract such people. We do not want to have the best officers in Lusaka, Ndola and Kitwe because Zambia is not about three cities, but about 72 districts.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: What we want for Lusaka, we want for Chongwe and Petauke as well.

Hon. Member: And Shang’ombo.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, we do not want to create a Local Government Service Commission which will be, in fact, another Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, we do not want to have two parallel ministries. We cannot, on the one hand, have the Minister of Local Government and Housing with his officials, appointed by the President, and on the other hand, a service commission appointed by the President, with regulations to govern the employment of staff and conditions of service made by the same commission without reference to the ministry responsible. That is confusion. One of the functions of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is to look at the work of the councils. Currently, in the Act, you will note that even issues regarding staffing and conditions of service end with the ministry although they start with the councils. In the new structure being proposed, there is a clean divorce between the functions of the Minister of Local Government and Housing and his staff at the ministry and the commissioner.

Mr Speaker, another point to take note of is the issue of decentralisation. There is a debate that by creating the Local Government Service Commission, you are going against the principle of decentralisation. Others argue that this is, in fact, part of the implementation of the decentralisation policy. Both arguments can be considered correct depending on the structure or animal you are creating. The structure which the Government has put on the Floor is not in line with the policy of decentralisation.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Aah!
Mrs Masebo: It is actually centralisation because the function of employing and disciplining workers in the councils is being taken to a body in Lusaka which has no reference to the responsible ministry. What decentralisation are you talking about? The decentralisation we were talking about was recognising that this function was still the function of the ministry and its councils except that since the councils lacked the capacity to engage specialised staff, the commission would assist them do this. As regards the rest of the staff, including secretaries, the councils can manage on their own. We would then help build the capacity of the councils. Hopefully, at some point, when each district, including Chongwe and Samfya, has the same capacity as Lusaka, then you can say they are now ready to employ specialised staff on their own since they will be able to attract medical doctors and lawyers.

Mr Speaker, this Bill must be amended at the Committee Stage. I am against its withdrawal because this is a matter of life and death for Local Government. If we withdraw it, then, according to the guidelines of this House, six months or a year will pass before it is brought back and that will be end of the story. If we, however, bring amendments at the appropriate stage, as long as the Executive are open to them, we will make progress. If they do not follow our suggestions, it is their problem and, come 2011, they will be shocked because the whole Local Government system, including the little we are talking about, will not be there. Instead, there will be total confusion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I would like to believe that the Executive is open to appropriate amendments wherever it is necessary.

 Mr Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister said that councils have employed ill- qualified staff for various reasons. They either do not have money to pay qualified staff or they employ them because they are their relatives. I agree with that statement 100 per cent.

Mr Speaker, we are saying that the reason for the re-establishment of the Local Government Service Commission is to deal with that problem and that we cannot decentralise with people who are ill-qualified and were employed because they were singing the National Anthem or party slogans louder than others. However, this Bill contains a clause that provides that all those in employment once the Act comes into force will be deemed to have been employed by the Local Government Service Commission. Is that not a contradiction?

Mr Speaker, are you telling me that a Town Clerk, who is a Grade 7 and was employed on account that he is a relative to the hon. Minister, a councillor or the mayor, must continue even when the Local Government Service Commission is re-established and even when they know that that person is ill-qualified? I thought that the re-establishment of the Local Government Service Commission was another window to sieve those who were employed wrongly and not consolidate and rubber stamp the wrong. Therefore, that is another area which needs amendment.

Sir, that clause must be amended so that once the Local Government Service Commission is re-established, all those who are employed and qualify according to the current Local Government Act and Statutory Instrument 115, which sets out the conditions for employing these people, are automatically employed by the commission. Those who do not meet the conditions should automatically fall away. Otherwise, the Government is lumbering itself with bills which it cannot pay.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is very important. Therefore, let us work together both hon. colleagues on the right and left to come up with something because all of us are councillors. We need a Local Government system that is going to work, deliver and make all of us look good. As long as Local Government is not delivering, we can talk and make laws here, but nothing will be happening. What is important is what is happening on the ground. Is the water the people in Chongwe are drinking clean or adequate? Are the roads okay? We have so many problems at the community level. The people are suffering because of some of the wrong things we, as leaders, in Lusaka are doing without reference to them.

 Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, let us not create problems for them. Instead, let us solve and not worsen them.

Mr Speaker, the term of office of councillors and mayors, in particular, is very important. It is very costly to have elections every year, as you may appreciate. Hon. Ministers are required to officiate at the installation of mayors and the ceremony requires quite a lot of money. Therefore, if it can be five years comprising two terms of two and half years each, it would be better. After two and half years, a mayor can be re-elected for another two and half year term. There should not be one term only. We should not restrict it to one term because the principle of decentralisation requires capacity.

One of the reasons the Government increased the tenure of office for councillors from three years to five was that it was expensive to train them every three years. When it came to mayors, it was every year. Therefore, it was felt that this was very expensive. Therefore, the idea of extending their tenure of office to two terms of two and half years each is in order to train them so that you know that once this person is trained, he will be with you for the next five years. That way, you are not losing out, as a Government. Instead, you are investing in a person and will reap your investment rather than their being elected every year.

Mr Speaker, I can see that I am running out of time, but I just want to beg the Executive, as we come to the next stage of this Bill, to look at the areas that require amendment. It will not help you to bring something that will just fail. Even the stakeholders, especially those who understand Local Government, know that this is a recipe for further confusion.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Mubika:  Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for affording me this opportunity to contribute to the report of your Committee on Local Government and Chiefs Affairs.

Mr Speaker, I would like to concur with one of the hon. Members who spoke before me who said that this Bill must be withdrawn and deferred so that all the loop hole …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … are tightened.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, in reference to the decentralisation policy, this law is retrogressive.

 Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, why do I say so? Where decentralisation has worked, the power to employ is vested in the respective councils. For instance, in the United Kingdom, where there is proper decentralisation, when you resign as a Town Clerk, a nurse or teacher from Luanshya and go to Ndola, you must resign and go and apply for a job in Ndola. Go for interviews and the job is given to you on merit based on the conditions and the status of the council you are going to. Therefore, if this Government wants to introduce a body that is going to employ people centrally in Lusaka, then, the concept of decentralisation must be forgotten.

Sir, we know what has been happening in Zambia. This Government wants to introduce a body that the hon. Minister is going to control. This will create more nepotism and tribalism.
Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, being a Member of this Committee, when we were interacting with witnesses, we heard that some people were bringing goats all the way from Lundazi to the office of the commissioners. This information was made available to your Committee. Therefore, if these people think that the introduction of the service commission will reduce the tendency of employing relatives or along tribal lines, they are day-dreaming.

 Mr Speaker, the issue of decentralisation in relation …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. I did not mean to disturb my cousin who is debating very emotionally.

Mr Speaker, is he in order to talk about tribalism when he is on record for practising it?

 Hon. PF Members: Where?

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, in Luanshya, the people from a certain province have revolted against him. Is he in order to mislead this House and the nation by talking about tribalism, and yet he is the one who has made comments pertaining to tribalism? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Energy and Water Development is challenging the hon. Member for Roan’s debate on the issue of ethnicity. My ruling is that the matter that the hon. Deputy Minister is referring to is not before this House. What is before this House is the Bill. However, if the hon. Minster wants to clarify the issue of tribalism, which the Chair recalls the hon. Minister, himself, referred to in his main statement, he is free to do so if there is no problem of ethnicity in the councils. However, for the time being, the issue of ethnicity per se is not before this House, but the Bill.

Can the hon. Member for Road continue, please.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, this is a serious matter. Hon. Ministers who pass through …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I withdraw.

 Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the only way that councils can employ qualified staff is if they are funded adequately. Councils must have enough financial base to raise the money to pay their employees. If you establish a Local Government Service Commission, which will have no powers or mandate to pay salaries to employees, its officers will end up resigning. You can employ doctors here and transfer them to Lundazi and if Lundazi District Council does not pay them for fourteen months, they will resign.

Therefore, instead of creating a body that the minister is going to control, we need to do build capacity in the councils through decentralisation. All you want to do is bring in a body that is going to be controlled by the minister who will employ who he wants, transfer who he does not like and fire those that do not support his cause.
Hon. Opposition Member: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: This is retrogressive and not in line with the spirit of decentralisation.

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, when we interacted with the witnesses, they clearly indicated that the Government was only able to pay salaries to senior staff. Now, with this kind of situation, we are going to create a lot of problems for the councils. We will have a situation were town clerks and directors of planning and administration are getting paid every month, but the rest of the staff are not because the councils are unable to raise money. Are you telling me that these people who are not paid every month will put in their best? No, they will just say, “The town clerk will do it, after all he gets paid every month and we do not get paid.” Therefore, I request all hon. Members to look at this issue seriously so that the decision that we make will stand the test of time. It is not just a question of haphazardly coming up with a Bill that does not tie up certain loopholes.

Mr Speaker, Sections 72 and 77 of the Local Government Act give powers to the councils to pay gratuity and pensions. Now, if people are going to be employed by a super body called the Local Government Service Commission, how will they be paid salaries by the commission and, at the same time, their pension and gratuity by the council? This is a very big contradiction.

Sir, last year, the Government failed to increase the salaries of civil servants by more than 15 per cent. Is it practical, now, to bring more people on the payroll of the Government, when it was unable to increase their salaries by 20 per cent? This is also another contradiction.

Mr Speaker, as we look at this issue, let us be levelheaded. As your Committee, we are asking you to tie up the loose ends. This Bill is well meaning and when you bring it back, we are going to support it. However, just because of the arrogance of numbers, you want to bring it now and pass it, and yet you are the people who are going to end up in problems. We, the Opposition, are not in Government, but are only advising you. Therefore, when we give you advice, you must adhere to it.

Hon. Government Members: Aah! Who are you?

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Sir, on the issue of the tenure of office for mayors, I wish to state that your Committee and all the people that appeared before it supported the idea of not limiting the tenure of office for a mayor to only one term. Hon. Members of Parliament and the President are elected for five years, therefore, why should we limit the tenure of office for a mayor to only one term? Our recommendation is that the mayor must also be given an opportunity to be democratically accepted or rejected by the electorate which comprises the councillors.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I support the recommendation of the Committee that this Bill must be deferred so that the loopholes can be tied up.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Namulambe): Mr Speaker, in the first place, I wish to thank you for affording me this opportunity to debate on this important Bill which I fully support.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Sir, as we all know, councils will continue to exist and need to have qualified staff. For this reason, your Committee had stated that all the witnesses that submitted before it supported the introduction of the Local Government Service Commission.

Sir, page 2, in paragraph 8 of the report indicates the positive ramifications of introducing the Local Government Service Commission. However, I want to add that officers in the councils are going to work effectively and add value by offering quality advice. Currently, even if some of the professional staff in the councils have quality advice, they fear to render it, especially if it is contrary to what the councillors want. As a result, we see councillors passing very wrong resolutions. Therefore, if these officers know that the councillor is not their employer, then they are going to offer quality advice in a professional manner without fearing any political victimisation.

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Namulambe: Today, some people could be against this because they know that they will not be able to control the officers in the manner they want. Speaking as a former council employee, …

Mr Mubika: Bwekeshapo!

Mr Namulambe: … I think it is much easier for professional staff in a local authority to be employed by a commission rather than the councillors they interact with on a day to day basis. Sometimes, councillors intimidate officers and, as a result, they fail to render quality advice for fear of being fired. It is just a question of saying, “I propose that such an officer be fired,” and when this is seconded, that officer goes. As such, the officers do not work well.

Furthermore, Mr Speaker, in some councils, properly qualified staff with local government qualifications are not appointed or promoted to responsible positions for various reasons like tribalism, nepotism and corruption. However, with the commission in place, I am sure that people who are properly qualified are going to get appropriate positions. Thereafter, we are going to see councils being managed properly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Sir, the reason councils are unable to perform properly is not because they have a low revenue base. It is because of the unqualified people that are employed in key positions who are unable to put together the existing resources. I have proved this myself and I have also seen people being dismissed from local authorities on flimsy grounds. I have sat before as chairperson on the provincial appeals board where we turned down some of the resolutions by the councils because some people were unfairly treated.

The issue of salaries should not be the reason for the withdrawal of the amendments.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: The point to note, as we introduce the commission, is that the officers in the councils are going to be paid. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has adequately addressed the issue of salaries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Namulambe: We are going to ensure that these officers are paid their salaries. The move by the Government to introduce the Local Government Service Commission is also going to address the problem faced by many councils of not paying salaries.

Mr Kambwili: How?

Mr Namulambe: The fact that the Government has thought of introducing the commission means that it appreciates the problems that the councils in the country are facing. Therefore, the issue of salaries should not be the basis for withdrawing this Bill which has good intentions for the people in the Local Government service.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: I am sure the Local Government Association of Zambia (LGAZ), which is the main stakeholder in the local government system, has supported this move. Some of us may not know the depth of the problems in councils, but the people who are the key players have accepted the move and so why should we say that this Bill should be withdrawn. If we go by this, then we will be unfair to the people who have supported the Bill.

Mr Speaker, the officers in the councils are not going to be paid gratuity because they are pensionable. They retire like any other person at the age of 55. Those who get gratuity are those engaged on contracts and these are normally employed where the council fails to attract people to do the job on a permanent and pensionable basis.

Mr Speaker, the issue of gratuity is not something that we should fear because there are very few people on contract while the rest of the workers are on pensionable conditions of service.

Mr Speaker, on the tenure of office for a councillor, the way it is in the Bill is clear. Before we amended this Act, a councillor was required to serve for two years, but the Bill is saying that instead of a councillor running for a one year term, he should run for two and a half years. The first six months would be for the councillor to know the operations of the council and then, in the remaining two years, the councillor should be able to offer his valuable contribution. Thereafter, that councillor should let other people take over.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, we have many people who can be councillors in councils. If we say that one person should be there for two terms, we are being unfair. The two and half years, as stipulated in the Act, are fair. Some councillors also think it is reasonable that after serving for two and half years, one would seek to rest and leave room for another person to take over.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, if this person is still willing to serve, he can re-contest after five years and become mayor. According to the Act, people are free to do so. For now, we should support this Bill in the form it is because we have addressed the people’s concerns. We are sure that the people who are going to be in these positions in all the councils are going to receive salaries and, in turn, render valuable service to all of us. I just want to persuade my colleagues in this House to support the Bill as presented.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I will be very brief in my contribution to the debate because I do not see any reason the people on your right cannot see what we are seeing here or understand what we are saying. We are not saying that the commission should not be there, but that the loose ends need to be tied up.

Mr Speaker, the Teaching Service Commission has been there from the time it was first created. The Public Service Commission has been there from inception and this goes for all other commission, but the Local Government Service Commission is the only one which comes and goes. Why is this so? It can be created, today, but after two years, it will be disbanded and this goes on and on. Why is this so? It is because of things like this.

Mr Speaker, if we want this commission to be permanent like the other commissions, can the Government make it clear how it is going to be funded because the people who came to your Committee from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing as witnesses were not sure about the funding of this commission. They kept saying, “We think they are going to be paid.”

We asked what they meant by saying, “They think”.  As your Committee, we wanted to know exactly how the officers were going to be paid, but the officers from the ministry did not have this information. What the hon. Minister has said in his speech is not what the officers from his ministry told us.

Mr Speaker, we are worried that the councils have problems paying their workers at the moment and when the commission starts to operate, it will be worse because councils are going to close. To say the truth, this commission is going to be temporary and I am sure it is going to be the shortest serving commission amongst all the commissions in the history of the local government system.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Speaker, may I thank you for giving me this opportunity to share with the House what I think can solve some of these problems.

Mr Speaker, history will tell us that I was once Minister of Local Government and Housing.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, during our time, we had the Local Government Service Commission and all the senior staff, including the town clerks, were paid by the Government. The councils had the capacity to pay the employees below the rank of town clerk. 
Mr Speaker, I do not want to engage in wild debates, but I would like to debate like the Chairperson of this Committee and the hon. Member for Chongwe (Mrs Masebo). The two debated on specifics. They said we, in the Government, should be reasonable and bring some amendments regarding some of our and some of their concerns. I agree with that.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, if we allow the Bill to be loose, it will create problems for us. We accept that there we are all in agreement regarding the introduction of the Local Government Service Commission and we also have no difficulty in looking at some of the fears at committee stage. However, we cannot allow the deferment of this Bill. This commission was abandoned and somehow, somewhere, people started employing people without qualifications. We had the Institute of Local Government Associations of Zambia (ILGAZ) and people had to have certain qualifications to be employed in councils, a situation we would like to revert to now. The outline of the qualifications was prescribed by the Local Government Service Commission and that is why we would like to bring it back so that there can be life again in the councils.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, it is a mockery of the rights of employees in the councils because they can be sacked at any time. Therefore, if we want to bring sanity to the councils, we must re-establish the Local Government Service Commission.

Mr Speaker, the call for the Bill to be withdrawn is not going to benefit anybody. At the moment, let us deal with specifics and those that think they have specific areas in which amendments must be made should bring them up at Committee Stage. As of now, let the Bill go ahead.

Hon. Government Member: Yes.

Mr Munkombwe: This is because the more we delay, the more time we lose. I think they say that procrastination is a thief of time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Member: Dictionary.

Mr Munkombwe: Now, because of that, I want to appeal to all of us, here, that by blaming other people, we are merely spending a lot of time for nothing. I think the Chairperson guided us very well and that was progress.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Member: From whom?

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I do not think that we, in the Government, can resist something that is clean because to do so would be extremely dangerous. Therefore, I want to appeal to my young brother, the hon. Minister, to take cognisance of those suggestions. After all, there is no difference. You are saying the same thing that we are worried about. Therefore, where is the confusion? Let the Bill go ahead.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: And I am speaking as a man who has been here for twenty-three years ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: … and a former Minister of Local Government and Housing …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … and I am not sorry about anything. Therefore, please, let us move.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! There is only one mover here who can get things moving ...

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … and that is this Chair in the centre. Look at yourselves on that side, the others on the other side and the Chair in the centre.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I shall take one on this side and then one on that side. Then, we shall want to hear how the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing will deal with the suggestions he has heard from this side and that side.

Hon. Opposition Member: Long live the Chair.

Mr Speaker: Now, any new points?

Hon. Opposition Members: Over here, Chair.

Mr Speaker: Over there? There is a new point over there?

Hon. Opposition Members: Over here.

Mr Speaker: Over here? There is a new point?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Where is over here?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Namwala, over there.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I want to join Hon. Masebo in welcoming you back to this august House and to Zambia. We almost missed you.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, I would like, in my debate, to adopt Hon. Munkombwe’s debate in totality as my own.

Mr Muntanga: Iya!

Major Chizhyuka: I agree that we should look at this Bill positively and be able to expurgate …

Hon. Opposition Member: Military language.

Mrs Masebo: Meaning what?

Major Chizhyuka: … those bits within there which are a little repugnant as we proceed. Therefore, I suggest that we proceed to make amendments. I just want to state that I am not too happy with your Committee’s nomenclature in the use of the term ‘negative ramifications’.  I would have preferred that they should have used ‘contrary ramifications’. This is because as soon as you say ‘negative’ then you are implying that they are not suitable, and yet, in there, it has embedded the real reason why there is a difference; the power to hire and fire.

Decentralisation is a baby of this Government and it can nurse it if it wants to by ensuring that councils are properly funded and the payment of the chief officers is done centrally without necessarily withdrawing the powers to hire and fire.

Mr Speaker, I have fears allowing this to be done by the Local Government Service Commission whose members are appointed by the republican President. What we are trying to do in the National Constitutional Conference is take away some powers from the President and vest them in other organisations in order to mesh power in the system of governance of this country. However, there are several fears. I think that the hon. Minister, who is so interested in my salute, must pay attention.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, the first fear, as you know, is that we are lumbered with the problem of a district commissioner (DC) in the district who is considered as a civil servant, and yet he is a political spin doctor of the Government in power ….

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: … and this is common knowledge.

UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga: Spin Doctor.

Major Chizhyuka: If we are going to have the Local Government Service Commission, whose commissioners are appointed by the President, what is going to stop the Government from choosing council secretaries deliberately with the intention that, in 2011, being returning officers, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Major Chizhyuka: … the process of rigging elections will have started by the creation of that organisation?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Major Chizhyuka: The power to hire and fire should remain in the councillors, themselves, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Major Chizhyuka: … in the councils.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, with the advent of the K500,000 sitting allowance, the councils will start attracting more qualified staff who, in the process of the head hunt for key officers, will look to the best of the best to lead the local government system. I beg to move that we make amendments and allow the hiring and firing of the key officers to remain in the councils as it is now.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, I recognise that this is not a simple Bill. The amendments being recommended are quite demanding in terms of what we need to do, but I also recognise that the Chairperson and members of your Committee, most of whom I know well because I have served with them on this Committee, are not radicals who would like to throw the baby with the bath water.

Mr Speaker: order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Speaker: Before I suspended business, the hon. Member for Namwala was contributing to …

Hon. Member: It was the hon. Member for Chienge.

Mr Speaker: I am sorry. We went past the hon. Member for Namwala. The hon. Member for Chienge was contributing to the debate on the Local Government (Amendment) Bill, 2009.

The hon. Minister is anxious to deal with the many good points advanced by both sides of the House. Therefore, I would request the hon. Member for Chienge to be brief so that we may hear how the hon. Minister is going to accommodate the suggestions which have been made to make the Bill easily passable in the House.

The hon. Member for Chienge may continue.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, my invisibility locates me in different places, including Namwala.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, I will abide by your directive to be brief. I was belabouring the small point that the Chairperson of this Committee and most of its hon. Members are people who are accommodating, understanding and not radicals who would like to throw the baby out with the bath water. Their own report suggests that there are many positive elements to this Bill.

However, they suggest that there are some troubling anxieties related to the power of hiring and firing and whether it should be vested in the local authorities or the commission. That is a point which we will need to think through. I would like to take the counsel of a very senior hon. Member, Mr Munkombwe, who has been in this system for a long time.

He says he was been in the system for twenty-three years. Like you, Mr Speaker, I am getting close to twenty years in the system. I think we need to take up this issue from there and suggest amendments that could accommodate those troubling anxieties because they are real, but, at the same time, not easy. We may need to think very hard, with the help of some legal minds, about how to divide this responsibility of control of staff.

One way to do this is to put in place new hiring and firing controls. Another way is to issues grants that are already apportioned and restricted, in terms of Central Government subvention to the councils, whereby the commission or the Central Government has some direct control on the money meant for salaries. The danger that I witnessed, when I was in that Committee, and I am sure it is still the case, is that, sometimes, money sent to district councils to clear pension arrears is diverted to other activities. That is not what we would like to see and I am sure your Committee must have observed that.

Mr Speaker, it is a delicate point but not insurmountable. Therefore, throwing the baby with the bath water by withdrawing this Bill completely may not be a viable solution. I beg to appeal to my colleagues to be accommodating in that respect and allow for some amendments along the way.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to wind up debate on this Bill which seemed to be controversial initially. However, after hon. Members spoke, and most of them were asking me to make clarifications on the payment of salaries and to make some amendments, I would like to say the following:

Mr Speaker, it is the intention of my ministry and the Government. as a whole. to make sure that we bring amendments at Committee Stage to specifically talk about the salary structures and who is going to pay. However, I would like to confirm, once more, that the Government is going to be responsible for the payment of salaries. Councils are part of the Government and I am surprised that during the past few years, since 1995, people having been saying that the local authorities are not part of the Government. I think that was a very bad distinction that we were making.

Mr Kambwili: Aah!

Mr Tetamashimba: That is what I think. When we are making amendments to this Act, hon. Members of Parliament should not think that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is the wisest to do this. Every hon. Member has a responsibility to make amendments to issues that he or she thinks should be amended in the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: If everything is left to me, then we are going to have a Constitution that you are going to regret later on.
Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I was recently in Zambezi where my colleague, Hon. Kakoma, comes from. I did not even campaign against him in 2006 because he did not campaign against me during the by-election.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: In his council, people have stayed without being paid for a long time and we owe them more than K700 million. I think the people working in councils deserve better because for other Government workers, just talking about a 15 per cent salary increase makes them go on strike. Therefore, I commend the local authority workers, Zambia United Local Authority Workers Union (ZULAWU) and LGAZ for their indulgence in making sure that we move forward.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I can assure you that a forthright withdrawal of this Bill is not the best way to deal with the issues raised. The best way is to make amendments at Committee Stage …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Hon. Kakoma must think and come up with amendments, especially that he is a learned counsel so that we can be convinced during his debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I also want to talk about gratuity. Some hon. Members have referred to Sections 71, 72 and 77, and I think one of them is Hon. Kambwili. The issues in these sections are going to be addressed when this Bill comes for Committee Stage. Therefore, it would be advisable for us to make sure that we bring amendments because if we do not do so and start debating it at that time, it will be too late. It will mean that we will just be fighting and go into a division, which is not correct.

Mr Speaker, I am grateful to the former hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing and I am sure she is the architect of this Bill. I found it on the statutes and she understands it better than me because …

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: … she came up with it. I am hope that when we start debating it, she will do as she has always done and support the issues that she would have wanted to see in order to help the Local Government Service Commission go in the areas where we have failed in the past.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, Hon. Kambwili, my own brother-in-law, …

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … talked about tribalism. I think all hon. Members of Parliament have complained that, sometimes, we have employed staff on the basis of political affiliation, nepotism or tribalism. Like Hon. Masebo said,. I had mentioned that earlier. We believe that this commission is going to be like other commissions such as the Teaching Service Commission and Prisons Service Commission.

It is not going to be a big body, but a small body composed of nine or twelve people with, maybe, one person from each province for equity purposes. This way, they can see to it that the commission functions the way the Teaching Service Commission and others have been functioning. That is what we are going to do.
Coming to Hon. Namulambe, obviously, as a professional local Government administrator, I cannot add on to what he said and I thank him.

Sir, I would like to talk about the two and half year term for a sitting councillor because it seems to have come up constantly.

Mr Speaker, many hon. Members of Parliament, both on your left and right, have stated to me that their mayors and chairpersons have, sometimes, been too big headed and against their hon. Members of Parliament, …

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: … but, today, they are telling me that these councillors should stay for five years. I think, the two and half years is, at least, better owing to the fact that if someone is not doing his best, you can have them replaced. However, if someone has worked for two and half years and has been loyal to you, the moment you vote for him for the second time, I can assure you basopo, you will see what will happen in 2011.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: I hope that the hon. Members of Parliament …

Hon. Opposition Members: What does basopo mean?

Mr Tetamashimba: Basopo means be careful. Since the hon. Members of Parliament have been complaining to me and we have understood their feelings, we feel that two and half years, without any extension, is more than enough for a councillor to serve as mayor or chairperson of a council.

My dear hon. Member for Katombola, I know that your council has arrears, but I thank you for your effort in supporting this Bill. As you have stated, we are going to move amendments at the Committee Stage and tie the loose ends. Do not leave everything to me. I will make amendments, but if you are not satisfied, be free to come forward.

Mrs Musokotwane indicated assent.

Mr Tetamashimba: Coming to Hon. Munkombwe, my old man who has been in Government for twenty-three. I am told that those in the next category are the Hon. Mr Speaker, our national secretary and my colleague, Hon. Dr Machungwa.

Hon. Member: And me.

Mr Tetamashimba: Right after them, comes myself.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: I thank you very much Hon. Munkombwe for whatever you said. We have to agree so that we establish a Local Government Service Commission which is good for us.

Hon. Major Chizhyuka, I am grateful to you for supporting the Bill. When you stood up, your traditional cousin was saying, “Your brother is going to talk against you.” However, when you finished, I said that, “Have you heard? My brother has supported the Bill.”

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: I can tell you that I am very grateful for what you said.

Mr Speaker, I am very humbled by the overwhelming support …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … that has come from the Floor of the House for the Bill in that hon. Members do not want the Bill to be withdrawn. However, as we go to the Committee Stage, each one of us must be involved in making some amendments to it.

I wish to thank you, Sir, for everything and for giving us this opportunity.

I thank you very, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 4th August, 2009.

Mr Speaker: While I am on my feet, let me guide based on experience. Like you, I was a chair and a councillor for two terms. Therefore, the Chair knows what is involved here.

May I suggest that the hon. Minister co-ordinates a small group of parliamentarians who wish to introduce amendments. That small group, working with our legal team, here, should be able to consolidate the amendments in one rather than each hon. Member coming here with a small paper which will bring arguments which will not end up anywhere.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

THE SERVICE COMMISSION (Amendment) BILL, 2009

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, this Bill seeks to amend the Service Commissions Act, Cap. 259 of the Laws of Zambia, in order to provide for the establishment of the Local Government Service Commission.

The Bill seeks to vest the power to appoint staff of the councils in the Local Government Service Commission which will be an independent authority with appropriate expertise in the management and recruitment of staff. It is anticipated that this measure will increase the capacity of councils to restore the levels of human resource in local authorities to levels which will enable them to effectively and efficiently provide necessary services to the public. The measure will also allow for the exchange of technical expertise through secondment and further create greater job security. The Local Government Service Commission will determine salary structures and conditions of service for officers serving in the local authorities. The commission will also establish enhanced procedures for discipline and administrative procedures relating to retirement and related matters.

Mr Speaker, in essence, this measure is significant as it will create a unified Local Government Service Commission. Currently, pursuant to the provisions of the Local Government Act, Cap. 281 of the Laws of Zambia, each council employs its own staff independently without reference to any other authority. This situation has led to different levels of development within local government, whereby, generally, city and municipal councils are way ahead of many district councils, especially those in remote areas which are unable to recruit, retain or even pay qualified staff. This situation, inevitably, has crippled the operations of the affected councils.

Sir, hon. Members of this august House may wish to note that the Government is determined to improve the capacity of councils to provide the necessary services to the public and will ensure, through appropriate levels of funding to the Local Government Service Commission and provision of increased grants to the councils, that these institutions are restored to their former glory. This is not a controversial amendment. It is a consequential amendment to the Local Government (Amendment) Bill which has just passed through the Second Reading Stage. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members of this august House to give full support to this Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, in accordance with their terms of reference, your Committee were on the 14th July, 2009, tasked by the House to scrutinise the Service Commissions (Amendment) Bill, 2009.

Sir, the intention of the Bill is to establish the Local Government Service Commission. Your Committee in considering the Bill requested for written submissions from various stakeholders who also appeared before them and made oral submissions. Your Committee observed that progress on this Bill was only possible if the contentious issues surrounding the Local Government (Amendment) Bill, 2009, were resolved.

Mr Speaker, having taken note of the debate this afternoon and evening pertaining to the Local Government (Amendment) Bill, 2009, it is my considered view that the concerns that have been expressed by the hon. Members will be addressed by the Government. Once those are addressed by the Government, your Committee and the House will have no problems in supporting this Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Wakula naiwe.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I am grateful for the support given to this, particular, Bill and I thank your Committee for the excellent work and recommendation that has just been made to the House.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 4th August, 2009.

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1854 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 29th July, 2009.
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