Debates- Wednesday, 29th July, 2009

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Wednesday, 29th July, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Chipungu): Mr Speaker, I would like to join other hon. Members of Parliament in welcoming you back to the House. May our mighty Lord continue blessing you. At the same time, I thank the hon. Deputy Speaker and hon. Deputy Chairperson of Committees for a job well done during your absence.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present a ministerial statement to update this august House on the progress of Zambia’s preparations for the qualifiers of the 2010 World Cup and Africa Cup to be held in South Africa and Angola respectively and on the construction of stadia in the country.

Mr Speaker, may I begin by thanking my predecessor, Hon. Namulambe, MP, for putting in place some of the programmes I am about to discuss. I salute him for his hard work. I also wish to thank Hon. Mike Mulongoti for his support on matters relating to the construction of stadia in the country. His support and guidance is most valuable. We are currently witnessing the construction of Ndola stadium whose works are progressing extremely well.

Mr Speaker, my ministry is committed to ensuring that the senior national soccer team gets all the necessary support to adequately prepare and qualify for the 2010 World Cup in South Africa and Africa Cup of Nations in Angola. Zambia is in Group C with Algeria, Egypt and Rwanda.

Mr Speaker, you may recall that this august House approved in the 2009 Budget, a total of K1 billion for the engagements of the senior national soccer team. However, the provision was far from sufficient for the preparations of the qualifiers. Consequently, we appealed to His Excellency the Republican President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, to help us to sort out the predicament of the national team visa-a-vie the World Cup and Africa Cup qualifiers’ financial deficit.

Mr Speaker, I am happy to inform this House that through the intervention of His Excellency the President, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning made available supplementary funding amounting to K10 billion towards the preparation of the senior national soccer team for the 2010 qualifiers. In an effort to secure private sector support, His Excellency the President, through my ministry, has since established a fundraising committee to secure funding, technical and other forms of support for the senior national soccer team to supplement the Government’s efforts.

I am happy to inform this august House that so far the head coach, physical trainer and assistant coach have all been given 4x4 Toyota Hilux vehicles curtsey of First Quantum Minerals Limited (FQM) …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: … to alleviate the transport problems which the coaching bench was experiencing. In addition, FQM has with effect from March, 2009, undertaken to pay the salaries for the coach and his assistants up to June, 2010.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: On the other hand, Toyota Zambia Limited has donated a 30 seater minibus to the national soccer team to help ease the team’s transport problems.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Other companies that have provided financial support include: Finance Bank Zambia Limited (K20 million); AutoWorld (K20 million); National Savings and Credit Bank (K10 million); Standard Chartered Bank (US$10,000); and the Bankers Association of Zambia (K16 million). The Southern Sun Ridgeway Hotel has provided accommodation at discounted room rates of 75 per cent to the national soccer team.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, so far, about K6 billion has been raised if all donations are expressed in monetary value. More revenue is expected to be raised through the British Petroleum (BP) Zambia initiative as well as the Zain/Multi-choice Zambia initiative. The BP initiative entails fuelling at BP gas stations and for every litre above a given threshold, K40 will go towards the national soccer football team. About K2 billion is expected to be raised by June, 2010. The Zain/Multi-choice Zambia concept entails sending short message service (sms) text messages to the number 32010. For every text message sent, K500 will go to the national soccer team. About K1.5 billion is expected to be raised by June, 2010.

Mr Speaker, regarding the qualifiers, the senior national soccer team has since played three games and is currently ranked third in the group. Algeria is leading the group with seven points, followed by Egypt which, like Zambia, has four points, but with a superior goal aggregate. Rwanda is at the bottom of the group with one point.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that my ministry has given the senior national soccer team adequate support in preparing for these games. For the first game against Egypt, which took place on 29th March, 2009 in Cairo, the team camped in South Africa for more than 10 days prior to the encounter with the Pharaohs. A total of K785,942,000 was spent on both the camping and actual game. The Chipolopolo boys put up a splendid performance and drew 1-1 with Egypt.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Chipungu: The second game was against Rwanda and was hosted by Zambia on 6th June, 2009 at Konkola Stadium. Again the team camped for two weeks in South Africa and a total of K1,000,411,000 was spent on the camping and actual game.

   The team emerged victorious by 1-0. The last game was played against Algeria on 20th June, 2009 at Konkola Stadium. The team camped for twenty days in South Africa. A total of K424,200,432.00 was spent on camping and the game itself. Unfortunately, Zambia lost 2-0 to Algeria.

   This loss to Algeria at home has made the road to the 2010 World/Africa Cup finals very difficult for Zambia. It will be an uphill battle from now. We at least, have to force a draw or beat Algeria in Algiers, Rwanda in Kigali and Egypt at Konkola Stadium.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: In view of the above, I wish to outline the following training programmes designed to equip further the team adequately for the last three games.

(a) Algeria verses Zambia

   Mr Speaker, for this game slated for 5th September, 2009 in Algiers, the team will camp in the Netherlands from 17th August to 3rd September, 2009. Through the presidential initiative of establishing the fund raising committee for the senior national soccer team, RABOBank has offered to take care of all the logistics for the team while in Netherlands.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

(b)  Zambia verses Egypt

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, for the game against Egypt on 10th October, 2009, in Chililabombwe, the team will camp in South Africa from 25th September, to 8th October, 2009; and

(c)  Rwanda verses Zambia

Mr Speaker, the last qualifying game will be against Rwanda in Kigali on 14th November, 2009. The team will camp in South Africa from 29th October, to 11th      November, 2009.

Mr Speaker, the camping programmes are very important because they bring together the local and foreign based players to train as a single unit. This is good for building tactical discipline and team bonding.

Mr Speaker, the 2010 World Cup campaign embarked on by the Zambia National Soccer Team still requires the moral support of this august House and indeed, every Zambian.

Mr Speaker, despite the difficult road ahead, my ministry remains optimistic that the team will do its very best to qualify for both the 2010 World and Africa cup of nations finals in South Africa and Angola respectively.

Mr Speaker, in addition, the ministry has sent the national soccer team coach on a trip to identify some of our boys playing soccer abroad and to see if they could be incorporated in the team.

Mr Speaker, related to the same subject of sport is sports infrastructure development. As I speak, Lusaka has no stadium following the demolition of the grand stand at the Independence Stadium to prepare for the 2011 All Africa Games which your Government was supposed to host, but later withdrew for economic reasons. As a result, the only stadium available so far for international matches in the country is the Konkola Stadium in Chililabombwe.

Mr Speaker, faced with this scenario, and in line with our mandate to develop and promote sport, my ministry has undertaken initiatives to develop sports infrastructure in accordance with the national sports policy.

Currently, a lot is already happening in terms of constructing stadia of international standards. In this connection, my ministry has been dealing with Anhui Foreign Economic Construction (Group) of Company.

You will recall that in 2007, the late President His Excellency Dr. Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, ‘may his soul rest in peace’ negotiated with the Chinese government on the construction of a stadium in Ndola.

The People’s Republic of China agreed to build a new stadium through a concessional loan as a symbol of warm and cordial bilateral relations between the two countries.

In order to implement the project, the Chinese Government picked Anhui Foreign Economic Construction (Group) of company from China. The company specialises in the construction of stadia, airports and hotels; and has a reputation in China. The firm falls directly under the Office of Vice-President of China. All its projects receive the approval of government. The company has undertaken many projects across the world. Some of the examples are as follows:

(i) in Madagascar, the construction of a stadium and five star hotels;

(ii) in Togo, the construction of a 30,000 seat stadium;

(iii) in United States of America, the construction of the international conference centre;

(iv) in Costa Rica, the construction of a stadium;

(v) in Granada, the construction of a stadium;

(vi) in Morocco, the construction of a stadium;

(vii) in Mozambique, the construction of an international airport and offices for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs;

(viii) In Tanzania, the construction of a stadium; and

(ix) In Kenya, the construction of the Chinese Embassy.

Mr Speaker, Anhui Construction Economic (Group) of Company has operations in thirty countries and is renowned for quality works. In 2007, the firm won three awards out of six given by the department of construction in the Ministry of Commerce in China.

Based on the above, on the 5th March, 2009, the ministries of Sport, Youth and Child Development, Finance and National Planning, Works and Supply and Justice commenced negotiations with Anhui Foreign Economic Construction (Group) of company for the construction of a new stadium in Ndola.

The negotiations were successfully concluded on the 13th March, 2009. The two parties signed a contract worth US$65 million. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning signed on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Zambia while the Vice-President of Anhui Foreign Economic Construction (Group) of Company signed on behalf of the company. The Commercial Councillor of the Chinese Embassy in Zambia was the witness.

The terms of the contract are that the money will be disbursed over a period of five years from 2009 to the year 2014. However, repayment of the loan will commence only after ten years from 2009 and end in 2029.

I am happy therefore to say that, following the signing of the contract, there has been tremendous progress on the project. On 4th July, 2009, His Excellency the President Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda laid the foundation stone to commence the construction of the main stadium.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: It is estimated that the project will take twenty-six months to complete. This means that the expected completion date is around June, 2011.

Mr Speaker, I wish to assure you that my ministry is determined to develop sports infrastructure in order to promote sports in our nation and will do everything possible within its mandate. For this reason, I wish to appeal again, to this august House to render the necessary support to my ministry. In terms of employment, so far, 300 Zambians have been employed at Ndola National Stadium. These include bricklayers and plumbers, some of whom have been trained by my ministry at National Service camps and youth resource centres.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, as regards Independence Stadium, hon. Members of the House maybe interested to know that in 2008, the grand stand was demolished in order to build a better one in redness for hosting the 2011 All Africa Games. The money for the construction was supposed to come from the infrastructure development fund under COJA within my ministry.

Following the demolition of the grandstand at the Independence Stadium, there is only Konkola Stadium in Chililabombwe, which belongs to Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM) that is being used for international matches.

In view of this critical situation and the urgent need to have a national stadium of international standards, my ministry wrote to the Zambia Public Procurement Authority on 13th March, 2009 asking for authority to rehabilitate the Independence Stadium and Maramba Stadium in Livingstone. On the 17th March, 2009, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority granted my ministry authority to start negotiations with Anhui Foreign Economic Construction (Group) Company on the rehabilitation of the Independence and Maramba stadia. Since then, my ministry has held several meetings with the Ministry of Works and Supply and Anhui Foreign Economic Construction (Group) Company in order to chart the way forward.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform you that I led a delegation of officials to China from 28th June to 6th July, 2009 as part of the negotiations. The delegation comprised my Permanent Secretary, the Chief Planner in my ministry and the Director of Buildings and the Senior Architect from the Ministry of Works and Supply. The objective of the trip was to establish the financial and technical capacity of Anhui Foreign Economic Construction (Group) Company and to seek authority to use the copyright design for the Ndola Stadium.

Mr Speaker, I am glad to inform the House that the visit was successful. Anhui Foreign Economic Construction (Group) Company proved that it has both the financial and the technical capacity to build a stadium. Further, Beijing Institute of Architectural Design agreed that we could use their design for Ndola Stadium for both Livingstone and Lusaka stadia.

Mr Speaker, Anhui Foreign Economic Construction (Group) Company is a very reputable construction company. The firm, like mentioned before, falls under the Office of the Vice-President and they have the approval of the Chinese Government on the projects the company undertakes. It is the Chinese Government that recommended the company, in the first place, to the late President Mwanawasa when the discussion on the loan for the construction of the Ndola Stadium took place. They are experts in the construction of stadia and it is a cost-saving measure that they build the other two stadia.  Anhui Foreign Economic Construction (Group) Company also indicated that they have cash available at hand to start the construction pending the application for the loan.

I also wish to inform this august House that the Chinese Government expressed willingness to provide financial resources in terms of a concessional loan for the construction of the two new stadia in Lusaka and Livingstone. The Chinese Government, through their Ministry of Commerce, had misgivings about rehabilitating the stadium and putting up a new grandstand on a forty-year old foundation. This may not be durable and secure. They were more inclined to give a loan to build a new state-of-the-art stadium that would be guaranteed to last at least seventy-five to 100 years with good maintenance.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, two days after my arrival from China, a Chinese delegation arrived in the country on the 10th July, 2009 to conduct a geo-technical survey and work out the final costs and contract for approval by the Zambia Public Procurement Authority and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Between 11th and 14th July, 2009, the delegation visited the site at Independence Stadium, held a meeting with my ministry, the Ministry of Works and Supply and the service providers, namely, the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO), Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company and Zambia Telecommunications Company (ZAMTEL) to come up with a work plan. The new stadium in Lusaka will have a seating capacity of 44,000 while the capacity at the Livingstone Stadium will be 30,000.

Once the preliminary studies and all the procedures are completed, we shall seek the final authority of the Zambia Public and Procurement Authority. When this is done, the progress is expected to culminate into the signing of a contract for a concessional loan by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Therefore, commencement of the construction of the two stadia will be expected soon after. As is the case in Ndola, the workers will all be recruited locally in Lusaka and Livingstone. Wages and working conditions will be in accordance with our labour laws.

Rehabilitation of existing Independence and Maramba stadia

Mr Speaker, my ministry is also making arrangements to rehabilitate the Independence Stadium in Lusaka and Maramba Stadium in Livingstone in order to attract teams that will qualify to the World Cup to train and acclimatise here prior to the World Cup. We already have the co-operating partners in Lusaka, Zambia, to undertake the renovations of these two stadia. There is no doubt that the World Cup will render the Southern African Region a place of strategic importance by attracting high levels of tourist inflows. We are also geared to take full advantage of the influx of the tourists during the World Cup and to maximise on foreign currency earnings.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I earnestly appeal to this august House to support efforts to develop sport infrastructure in this country. It will be a matter of great pride two years from now towards the end of 2011 that this country will have three ultra-modern stadia in Ndola, Lusaka and Livingstone. This is not just a dream, but will be a reality come 2011.

I thank you, Mr Speaker, and may God bless you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members indicated to ask questions.

Mr Chipungu: This is straightforward. Why do you want to ask questions?


Mr Speaker: You are free to stand and I will say nothing.


Mr Speaker: Hon. Members may now ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement which has been made by the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I want to know whether the hon. Minister is happy regarding the capacity of the Independence Stadium which has been increased by only four thousand from forty thousand. I also want to know whether he is happy that we will have three stadia that will look the same.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, regarding the first question, obviously, I am happy. At least, an attempt is being made to have a stadium of international standards but with funds permitting in future, there will be a provision for extension.

Mr Speaker, obviously, I would be happy to have the three stadia looking alike, but what is at stake right now is the finance. We are constrained by finances and although it is a concessional loan, I think it is important that we get what we can afford because we do not want to commit so much money which we will fail to pay back at the end of the day.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just stated that there is provision for expansion. I would like to find out from him whether this provision for expansion has been taken into account in terms of the designs as they are now so that when there is this future expansion, there would be no need to demolish the structures which are currently being built.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, we are no longer interested in demolishing structures because we have learnt terrible lessons from the past experiences. I would like to inform the House that we are engaging real engineers who will ensure that there is provision for that. If we had money in this country, we would have asked for stadia that would cater for 65,000 people and above, but since we do not have money, we are going for smaller ones which can cater for 44,000 people.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the rehabilitation of the Independence and Maramba stadia will be completed.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, in case the hon. Member of Parliament may not have gotten the answer, I would like to state that the two stadia should be complemented before March 2010.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, football, tennis, rugby and athletics are businesses. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what he is doing to get these practitioners in these sports fields to help start generating internal revenue. I have asked because all I heard was gratitude for the outsiders without thinking of the internal people investing in sport. Are you embarking on another Highly indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) in sport?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member is aware that the Government has good economic policies to do business in this country. If hon. Members of Parliament would like to invest in sport, they are welcome.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Mr Speaker, the camping of our national team in South Africa is a good thing and it is assumed that it is for purposes of preparing the team adequately for its future encounters. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what value this adds to our team when they camp in South Africa and end up playing with teams that are in lower divisions. Could this be one of the reasons the national team is not performing well in this group?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, my ministry does not interfere in the technical aspect of running football in this country. The running of football in this country is under the leadership of the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ). As a Government, our role is to give advice and I am sure that they took what the hon. Member is talking about into account when they made a programme to go and practise in countries like South Africa.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, this Government, through the former Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, Hon. Gabriel Namulambe, stated that the studia that were going to be constructed were from a grant provided by the Chinese Government. I would like to find out why the situation has changed from a grant to a concessional loan and whether these stadia will be economically viable to the extent that they will be able to repay these loans.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, certainly, they will be economically viable and, in any case, a plan may be made today, but changes tomorrow. Therefore, the Chinese Government changed and said it was no longer a grant, …


Mr Chipungu: … but a loan. What do we do in such a situation? Sir, we had no choice, but to take it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, from what the hon. Minister has just stated, I would like to find out from him if he does not think that we have been duped into getting a loan from the Chinese Government by them initially indicating that it was going to be a grant. Why did they Government accept without asking the people of Zambia whether they would accept such a loan?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, to the contrary, we were not. If anything, I would like to thank the Chinese Government for coming to our aid. I am sure that these facilities will give a different face to this country because it is not easy to have stadia of this magnitude and are all of international standards.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to inform this House and the nation at large why we lost to Algeria two-nil at home after spending so much money training footballers within Africa.


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, it is difficult for me to state why we lost because there are several reasons. This could be psychological …

Hon. Government Member: Or we were just unlucky.

Mr Chipungu: … or just being unlucky on that day.


Mr Chipungu: There are so many factors.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the estimated cost is for camping the team in the Netherlands which will all be funded by Rabbo Bank. By the way, is this the same bank which His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, this morning, at the airport, mentioned that the former Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Magande, made a bad sale on?


Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister will not comment on the later part …


Mr Speaker: … of that question.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, at the moment, my office has no figures of how much Rabbo Bank will spend on the camping of our national team. I am sure that information will be availed to us in due course.

However, I would like to say that whatever they spend is very significant because, for now, we are relying on co-operating partners to run soccer in this country, just like I indicated in my ministerial statement.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, arising from the statement that has been made by the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development about the Government having obtained a loan to construct the stadia in Zambia and that this Government has been single sourcing for the construction of these stadia, can he confirm that the single sourcing is part of the conditionalities of the loan that they got from China.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I cannot confirm that. I would rather say that it is very normal to single source.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, soccer is number one sport in the country, and yet we have seen our team performing badly. When are you thinking of having professional soccer in this country?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I think, it is very important to appreciate that our National Team has, certainly, shown signs of improvement in their standard of playing. Therefore, it is not correct to say that our boys are not doing well at all. It is important that we give them time and support them. Let us see what they will do in the remaining three matches. As I have indicated in my speech, I am asking this august House to give support to my ministry and the national team.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, we are also joining in welcoming you, hon. Mr Speaker.

Sir, is the hon. Minister being fair to this august House by stating that single sourcing, which is a yard stick measure of corruption, …


Mr Muyanda:… in order? Should it be tolerated by a democratic Government, which should have even gone for three quotations in order to find out the fair price, although, I have respect for taking Chinese technology?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, let me say that, perhaps, I was caught in between.


Mr Chipungu: Sir, Anhui Economic Construction Company was not brought to this country by my ministry or myself. It was an agreement between the late President…


Mr Chipungu: …and the Government of the People’s Republic of China. They are already in the country, therefore, what do you want me to do?


Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, for instance, if I went out and said let us have another contractor to come and build a stadium, the same people would be questioning why the one already on the ground doing the job would be left out. Therefore, since Anhui Economic Construction Company is on the ground doing the Ndola Stadium, it is justifiable that they are given other contracts to do the stadia.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development tell this House whether the three new stadia will have adequate training facilities in order to help us reduce on costs of training in South Africa.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, they, actually, have a lot of facilities. I am just checking on the document to show what they have. Besides the football field, they have an athlete field with eight synthetic tracts of 400m, ten synthetic tracts of 100m, hurdle and high jump arenas.

Mr Speaker, they also have rest rooms for very important persons. In fact, let me just say that they have so many facilities.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, following the demolishing of the Dag Hammerskjoeld Stadium in Ndola, a committee headed by Pat Puta was set up to raise money to rebuild that stadium. This saw a lot of money being spent on the preparation of the grounds for building. Is the Government considering building another stadium there or has it decided to abandon that project and the money that was spent on it?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, it is not possible to have two stadia in a place like Ndola. For now, our attention is drawn to the construction of the Ndola Stadium.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, given the hon. Minister’s response about the sophistication of this particular stadium that has been proposed and the foresight that President Mwanawasa had in building upon good diplomatic relations with the People’s Republic of China, what cause has the hon. Minister to feel apologetic about this particular contract?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I think, we are not apologetic, at all, to anybody and for anything.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, I wish to find out why the offer from Zain or MTN to help raise funds for the National Team was turned down?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, there was nothing like that. My statement states very clearly that there is raising of funds through Zain and Multi-Choice.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, when do you intend to give the same attention that you have given to football to other related sports like rugby?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, we are giving attention to other sport disciplines. In fact, the policy of our ministry is to support all the sport disciplines in this country. There is no segregation at all.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.



361. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) when the road leading to Chief Nabwalya’s Palace in Mpika District would be constructed;

(b) how the K2.8 billion previously allocated for construction of the road at (a) above was spent; and

(c) whether Supreme Contractors who were engaged to construct the road above would continue with the project.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, it is the immediate intention of the ministry to re-advertise the tender for the construction of Mpika/Nabwalya Road in 2010, following the mutual termination of the contract on 2nd June, 2009, that was awarded to Messrs Supreme Construction in 2006. The contract could not be implemented properly due to inadequate funding.

Further, the current scope of the work is not sufficient since there is need to carry out additional works in order to carry out meaningful works. The amount provided in the 2009 Annual Work Plan is not sufficient to meet the cost of carrying out the revised scope of the work. The project will, therefore, be carried out in 2010, subject to availability of funds.

Mr Speaker, the contractor has been paid a total amount of K884,007,000 since the project started in 2006. The contractor has not yet submitted the final claim after termination of the contract. The original contract sum was K2,794,197,000. There is only K1,000,000,000 provided in the 2009 Annual Work Plan for the construction of Mpika/ Nabwalya Road.

Finally, the successful bidder will be awarded the contract for the construction of Mpika/Nabwalya Road upon evaluation of the bids that will be received by the Road Development Agency (RDA) in 2010.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I am sure that everyone in this country knows that Mfuwe Constituency is one of the richest in terms of tourism. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why it has taken forty-four years to work on this road and whether his ministry will engage the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to use the funds sourced from tourism activities to improve the road network in this area.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, we have a lot interest in this area. This is why we are committed to ensuring that the road is done. As to whether the money earned from tourism activities can be used for this purpose, I am aware that the hon. Member knows that the community also benefits from the funds that are generated through the management programmes in tourism. We have equipment in this area and he can use some of the money for the purpose of improving the road network in the constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, tourism is an important way of raising revenue for this country. Can the hon. Minister confirm whether the Government has serious plans to up grade the road leading to Nabwalya by tarring it?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, at the moment, we have no serious plans.


Mr Mulongoti: We shall up grade the road to a standard that is usable by the tourists, but not necessarily tarring it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, K1 billion was budgeted for this road in 2009. Can the hon. Minister inform this House when the contractor will go on site?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, it is possible to get the contractor on site. However, just the question of mobilisation will consume much of that money. It is not reasonable to use money this way. We are hoping that in the coming budget, we will top up on that amount and be able to get a contractor on site. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is, in no doubt, aware that the greater part of South Luangwa National Park and all of North Luangwa National Park are in Mfuwe Constituency. However, the South Luangwa National Park is only accessible from Eastern Province for historical reasons. Does he not feel obliged to improve access to the north-end of that park such as Mfuwe and Nabwalya’s area in order to redress the losses of the people in the Northern Province at the expense of people in the Eastern Province?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, we have plans to connect the Eastern Province to the Northern Province, not only by road, but also by rail. We have serious plans and at the right time it will be done.


362. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development what Government findings were on the industrial strike by the Chambishi Smelter employees which led to the fight between the Zambian and Chinese nationals.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, there was no industrial strike at Chambishi Smelter because there was no withdrawal of labour which could have constituted a strike.

There was, however, on 4th March, 2008, an industrial unrest involving 100 local employees who were protesting to force management to increase their salaries. During this unrest, there was damage to property and two Chinese nationals were injured in their effort to protect machinery and equipment. The House may wish to know that there was no Zambian who was injured. The unrest was resolved between management and the union.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how many Chinese nationals are employed at the smelter and whether, indeed, it is a condition of their investment to come with Chinese labourers to work at the smelter.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M Mwale): Mr Speaker, I would like to advise the hon. Member to put this as a new question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why this country is facing a lot of problems from the Chinese mining companies in as far as conforming to industrial labour laws and safety rules is concerned.

Mr M Mwale: Mr Speaker, understandably, we are used to the British, South African and American work culture. 

Mr Speaker, we are now in the age of globalisation and it is up to us, as a host country, to introduce the Chinese to our work culture. The challenge is upon my ministry to ensure that they conform to our working standards.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of labour laws, the Chinese have not broken our laws because whatever they are doing is within the laws of the land.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, if you went to Chambishi Copper Smelter, you would find that the Chinese live inside the plant. I would like to find from the hon. Minister whether he is aware of this and if he is what he is doing about it because it is against the Pneumoconiosis Act.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of that, but I will follow it up. However, one of the hon. Members who is busy saying, “Question! Question”, wines and dines with the Chinese when it is dark.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.



363. Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West) asked the hon. Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) what the findings of the feasibility study on the proposed construction of a bridge on the Zambezi river in Zambezi district were; and

(b) when the said bridge would be constructed.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that in 2005, a feasibility study was done by Scott Wilson Piesold and the findings of the study were that the construction of the bridge is economically viable.

Sir, the standard Government procurement procedure is that after the feasibility study has been done, a detailed engineering design should follow. It is for this reason that in November of 2008, proposals were invited from consultants to do a detailed engineering design. The services were secured at a cost of K2,426,720,000. However, due to budgetary constraints, no funds were allocated for this project in the Annual Work Plan for 2009. Hence, the delays in the construction.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker,…

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I stand on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development in order to insinuate that I wine and dine with the Chinese at night without producing facts? In any case, I have never had dealings with any Chinese company. I need your serious ruling.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! That point of order is an indication that the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan is denying the allegation by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development about his wining and dining with the Chinese.

Mr Speaker: That point of order is sustained and corrects the record.


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me an opportunity to raise a supplementary question.

Mr Speaker, the answer by the hon. Minister indicates that this feasibility study was done more than three years ago, yet, the hon. Minister is still talking about funding not being available for a detailed engineering design. Could the hon. Minister confirm that this Government has a relaxed approach to issues of development? They are not in hurry to develop this country and have no justification to continue being in Government and, therefore, they should be voted out.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the answer from our ministry was that the services were secured at a cost of K2,426,720,000. What is not available are funds for construction works. Therefore, I do not know what the hon. Member wants us to do with another engineering design because we have already done that. What is not available are funds for construction.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order! My microphone was off.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, single sourcing where there is no major competition is not against the rules. It can be used in a normal society. Here is a bridge which has been found economically sound that needs to be done. The design has already been done, but there are no funds for its construction. Based on his experience on the Copperbelt, could the hon. Minister find a donor to single source and build this bridge in my brother’s constituency in which we need development. I want a serious answer from the hon. Minister.

Mr Muntanga: Single source!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for educating his colleague on single sourcing.


Mr Mulongoti: We are seriously considering this. First of all, we are proceeding with the tarring of the road into that area. Therefore, when you see the project to tar the road begin, the implication is that we will not use pontoons for those who will use the tarred road. The last time I answered this question, I said that between four and five years, we will have taken tar to his area. Within that time, we will also have constructed a bridge.

Sir, we are considering a Bill on public-private partnership (PPP) in this House. As soon as this Bill is passed, we would like to invite the private sector to participate in the construction of these bridges. Therefore, with his help and the help of all the other hon. Members, it is possible to partner with the private sector to construction bridges on the critical rivers of our country.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.


364. Mr Tembo (Nyimba) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives what disciplinary action had been taken against staff who were involved in the abuse of authority in distributing fertiliser during the 2007/08 farming season countrywide.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that only two cases involving the abuse of authority by Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives staff in distributing fertilser during the 2007/08 farming season were reported countrywide.

   This was in Luapula and Southern provinces. In Luapula Province, one officer was involved and has since been suspended and is appearing before the courts of law.

In the Southern Province case, which happened in Kalomo, one officer was implicated and subsequently suspended. The Zambia Police Criminal Investigations Department, (CID) which handled the case, however, attributed the loss of money deposited by farmers for fertiliser to bank officials who teamed up with farmers to swindle the Government and expressed doubt in aligning Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives staff in the syndicate.

Consequently, the audit team cleared the ministry’s staff member implicated and it was recommended that the suspension be lifted. This has now been done.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Tembo: Mr Speaker, I am now getting confused.


Mr Tembo: Last week Friday when the House was considering Question 350, the hon. Minister indicated that eleven cases of theft were reported. However, today, he has reported to this august House that only two cases were reported. Can he justify the two statements?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Boma ya boza!

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, it is true that we reported to this august House about the eleven cases. However, not all these eleven cases involved members of staff of the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. In fact, we even indicated that some of the cases involved the staff of the distributing companies while others were at sub-district level. Therefore, there is no contradiction.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mubika: Quality!


365. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing why the positions of Legal and Social Secretary had been abolished in councils country-wide.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the position of Legal Secretary was not abolished in councils. This position is still there in municipal councils, but the title has been changed to Director of Legal Services. The position of Legal Secretary existed in district councils, but lawyers never accepted to work in district councils and eventually the councils abolished it.

Sir, the position of Social Secretary was abolished in the Third Republic due to the political changes that took place in the country. Councils were reorganised and the new structures did not recognise the importance of the position of Social Secretary who, in the Second Republic, combined his council work with political party duties.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that local authorities without chief officers with a legal background owe legal practitioners huge sums of money due to court proceedings? If this is the case, how does he intend to redeem such councils?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are aware that this occurs in councils with inadequately qualified staff. However, as the hon. Member is aware, we are going to consider Bills that are now in Parliament which will enable my ministry to ensure that staff who are properly qualified and have the capacity to handle the issues being mentioned, are employed in the councils. After that, we will ensure that councils have adequate staff so that we do not have cases pending in these councils.

I thank you, Sir.


366. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing how many local authorities had qualified Chief Executive Officers as of 31st January, 2009.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that according to Statutory Instrument No. 115 of 1995, there were forty-six councils with qualified chief executives as at 31st January, 2009.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, financial mismanagement in some councils is as a result of having unqualified chief officers in key positions. What mechanism has the Government put in place to normalise the situation in such councils?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I wonder whether the hon. Member is getting my answers. I have stated that we have identified that a number of councils have ill-qualified staff.  It is for this reason that we are amending the law so that we are able to send qualified staff to enable the councils run in the best way possible so that they are able to pay some of the staff that has not been paid for a long time.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear! Good answer!


367. Mr Chongo (Mwense) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) when teachers’ houses at Lubunda Basic School in Mwense District would be renovated;

(b) whether there were any plans to construct more teachers’ houses at the school to resolve the critical shortage of housing accommodation; and

(c) when the classrooms at the school would be electrified.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, currently, the ministry has no plans of renovating teachers’ houses at Lubunda Basic School in Mwense District. However, the school will be considered in the near future as funds are made available.

There are no plans to construct more teachers’ houses this year. The district may consider budgeting for the construction of the teachers’ houses in the near future.

The ministry will liaise with the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) to have Lubunda Basic School electrified when it embarks on the programme in Mwense District. However, the teachers’ houses at the same school are electrified.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that the houses at this school are in a bad shape and he does not consider constructing more houses. Is the ministry ready to lose these houses which are in a very bad state as well?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, as we indicated in our answer, we are considering that issue seriously as funds are made available. However, just to show that we are serious, this year alone, in the same constituency and the country as a whole, we are building a number of houses. We have budgeted for the construction of four houses at three different basic schools.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


368. Dr Kalumba (Chienge) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a) when Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) would connect Kaputa District to the national electricity grid through the Chienge Power Station; and

(b) what the estimated cost-savings for the connection above as compared to the continued use of a diesel generator in the next five years would be.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Mbewe): Mr Speaker, Kaputa District is earmarked for electrification by the REA under the 2009 Rural Electrification Programme (REP) at a total cost of about K10 billion. This will be achieved through the construction of a 33kV transmission line from Mununga to Kaputa District over a distance of 125 kilometres.

It should, however, be noted that the on-going initiative to install a biomass gasifier plant at Kaputa Boma, with assistance from the United Nations Industrial Development Organisation (UNIDO) will continue as this will supplement power supply in the area and help to improve the voltage profile considering the Northern and Luapula provinces experience frequent low voltage profiles during peak hours.

Mr Speaker, ZESCO is currently spending K1,500 to generate one unit of electricity (kWh) from diesel generator sets in Kaputa and sells this power to its customers at around K200 to K250 per unit (approved national tariff).

  When connected to the national grid, the savings by ZESCO will, therefore, be around K1,250 for each unit of electricity sold. Based on the capacity of 400KVA of the diesel generator set currently installed and assuming 50 per cent  power availability per annum, the estimated total savings are about K10 billion over a period of five years.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, given that very elaborate answer and I thank the hon. Minister for it, can he confirm whether the budgeted amount for this year is actually going to be released this year or has there been any variation in the budget for this year?

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Mr Speaker, an amount of about K10 billion will be released subject to the usual treasury resource availability.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


369. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Works and Supply whether there are any plans to rehabilitate the feeder road linking Nachibila School to Chombwa School in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, the rehabilitation of the feeder road linking Nachibila School to Chombwa School has been included under the feeder roads rehabilitation programme for Central and North-Western provinces being financed by the European Union under the Sector Budget Support Programme. The rehabilitation of the project road is expected to begin later this year.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, I would like to know when these graders in Central Province will go to Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, the equipment for rural road units is in the hands of the provincial administration and there is a timetable for its use. The hon. Member should consult the Provincial Minister or the Permanent Secretary for the programme for use of the equipment.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how much money the Government has allocated for fuel for these graders.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is the one who approved the money in this House and for the sake of assisting him to remember, we allocated K2 billion for each province for the equipment.


Mr Ndalamei: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


370. Dr Machungwa (Luapula) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice:

(a) how much money the Government spent on paying lawyers engaged by the Task Force on Corruption from 2003 to 2008, year by year; and

(b) how much money the Government does anticipate to spend on procuring the same services in 2009.

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Mr Chilembo): Mr Speaker, from 2003 to 2008, the Government spent, year by year, the following amounts to pay local and foreign based lawyers engaged by the Task Force on Corruption:

Year Foreign Legal Fees Local Legal Fees
2003 US$76,889.25 K1,202,204,000.00
2004 US$291,548.08 US$85,280.00
2005 US$3,336,616.00 US$460,000.00
2006 US$2,767,344.00 US$900,000.00
2007 US$4,280,132.00 US$820,000.00
2008 US$408,231.94 US$95,333.33
TOTAL US$11,160,761.27 US$2,360,613.33 plus
  K1,202,204,000 earlier alluded to.

The outstanding bills for the year 2008 are as follows:

Foreign Legal Fees US$1,338,231.06
Local Legal Fees US$480,000.00

Mr Speaker, it is anticipated that the Government will spend US$720,000 on procuring the services of three local advocates in 2009 at a cost of US$20,000 per firm per month. It is not known for certain how much the Government will spend on procuring foreign legal services.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, by any standards, these are huge amounts of money, is the Government considering continuing to spend these amounts in 2009 and the years coming and what is the cost benefit analysis of all this?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, the Taskforce was given the mandate to investigate offences that had been committed in the ten-year period from 1991 to 2001. So, it has by and large discharged its mandate and we have no intention of continuing to spend these amounts of money. As you are aware, the Government approved the Anti-Corruption Policy, recently, which is going to designate the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) as the lead institution in the fight against corruption. So, there will be no other institution that will continue working in the area of preventing and prosecuting offences of corruption.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, looking at the legal fees which are so high, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the fees which have been paid match the amount of money and goods which have been confiscated from these cases.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, information relating to the value of recoveries in relation to the amount of money spent on the activities of the Task Force is in the public domain for people to access it and make comparisons. However, what I want to say is that, as I indicated in my previous answer, the expenditure on the Task Force is going to be very minimal now because its mandate has been discharged, by and large.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has told the House that a sum of US20,000 per month per firm is payable to the lawyers handling these cases. Are the fees dependent on the number of cases being handled or they are irrespective of whether a firm is doing one case for five years or not.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the fees are payable in accordance with the amount of work and time spent on each case.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, arising from the immediate answer just given by the hon. Minister, can he please clarify whether the three firms he has stated are receiving US$20,000 per month based on the exact same amount of work, as he says that it is dependent on the number of cases done. What is the hourly billing rate which has been agreed upon and does it conform with the Zambian lawyers usual fees?

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, I would like to state that these amounts do conform to the scales available and the work involved is substantially the same hence justifying their legal fees.

Hon. Opposition Members: What are scales?

Mr Chilembo: The hon. Member asking is aware of the scales which apply. We are complying with the legal provisions when it comes to the legal fees.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, arising from the earlier answer given by the hon. Minister in which he indicated that the Taskforce was given a mandate to investigate corruption cases for the ten year period between 1991 to 2001, can the hon. Minister indicate the special reason as to why only this period should be investigated and not after 2001 up to-date.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, this was a Task Force which was given a particular task that was defined in terms of time, but as I said, the other cases before and after this period will be handled by the ACC. This Government is committed to strengthening this institution in form of man power development and providing it with equipment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, when will the Government initially assist legally constituted institutions such as ACC, instead of investing colossal sums of money on this illegal body, the Task Force?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the long-term interest of this country in terms of fighting corruption lies in strengthening the ACC and not setting up ad hoc institutions with limited time and space and that is what has been incorporated in our Anti-Corruption Policy ACC policy. Setting up ad hoc institutions sometimes brings rivalry and friction within the system. We are trying to prevent this by strengthening the regular institutions which we have established for ourselves so that in future we do not create ad hoc institutions.
I thank you, Sir.


Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when the Government would assist to resolve the dispute concerning the installation of Chief Mwenda in Mwense District;

(b) what had caused the delay in resolving this dispute; and

(c) whether there was a stipulated period attached to the installation of a new chief and, if so, what was the period.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, the Government can only assist in resolving the dispute concerning the installation of Chiefteness Mwenda in Mwense District after the electoral college submits the minutes of the meeting where the chief was elected to accede to the Mwenda throne.

Mr Speaker, my ministry has written to the Provincial Administration to ensure that the minutes of the meeting are submitted to my ministry so that the process of recognising the chiefteness commences. The chiefteness can only be installed when the President recognises her.

Mr Speaker, the delay in resolving the installation dispute has been caused by the family members’ failure to agree on the selection of Ms Sophia Thomas Chibaye as the successor to the throne after the death of the previous chief, Dr Chibwe Chibaye.

Mr Speaker, there is no stipulated time frame in which a chief can be installed because the Government does not interfere in the selection process of chiefs in the country. The process of selecting chiefs is the mandate of the respective royal families and electoral colleges while the Government recognises them.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister will agree with me that it is now fourteen years since the death of the previous chief and the successor has not been recognised. She is also …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are debating. What is the follow-up question?

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister give a time frame when this dispute will be sorted out because it is now fourteen years without the Government sorting out this problem?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the Government does not impose who should be chief. The members of an electoral college should organise themselves. If the hon. Member is keen on resolving this issue, he should ensure that the electoral college is brought together in the presence of the Provincial Local Government Officer. The minutes of such a meeting should be taken down, giving details of how the selection process was done and who had been selected.

These minutes should be presented to my ministry to ensure that the chief chosen is recognised. Without that, it is not possible for us to recognise the chief because there are no minutes indicating that the one who is there was properly selected. In the event that the selection process goes on smoothly but some family members go to court, again we do not proceed to recognise the chief until the court process runs its course.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Shawa: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find from the hon. Minister whether the Government is considering reviewing its policy on the recognition of chiefs vis-a-vis paramount chiefs in this country. Of late, we have had talk about paramount chiefs from other provinces other than the four paramount chiefs that at are currently recognised by the Government.

Mr Speaker: The question on the order paper was specifically addressed to Chipili Parliamentary Constituency in Mwense.

372. Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:
(a) how many immigration assistants were trained at Lilayi Police College in 1993;

(b) of the officers at (a) above, how many had been promoted to the following ranks:

(i) assistant immigration officer;
(ii) immigration officer; and
(iii) senior immigration officer; and

(c) how many officers from the 1993 intake had not been promoted and what the reasons were.

Mr D. Phiri hesitated in standing up.

Mr Speaker: Is the hon. Minister not in the House?

Mr D. Phiri stood up.


The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Speaker …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.


Mr D. Phiri: Madam Speaker, a total of sixty-nine immigration assistants were trained at Lilayi Police College in 1993. Out of this number, sixteen officers were promoted to the rank of assistant immigration officer. One was promoted to the rank of immigration officer and no officer was promoted to the rank of senior immigration officer.

Madam Speaker, from the 1993 intake, a total of fifty-two officers have not been promoted. Twenty-seven of these officers are no longer in the system due to various reasons such as deaths, dismissals and resignations. There is a total of twenty-five officers who have not been promoted to higher ranks.

Madam Speaker, the major challenge has been the limited staff establishment at the Immigration Department. The department was restructured recently and the establishment has been increased from the current 473 to 850 officers. Once this is implemented, a number of officers will be elevated.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, arising from the answer given by the hon. Minister, could he confirm that the twenty-five immigration assistants will be considered for promotion bearing in mind that the establishment has been increased from about 500 to 800 officers?

Mr Milupi and Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Phiri: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that concern. There are two issues in dealing with the hon. Member’s concern. First of all, as I said in my earlier answer, we will consider elevating some officers due to the fact that the establishment has been increased. Secondly, aspects of competence in performance will also have to be taken into account before we promote any of these officers.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that most of those who resigned did so because they were told by the ministry that they would not be promoted because they were deemed to have told a lie upon recruitment by saying that were Grade 9s when they were, in fact, Grade 12 school leavers.

Mr D. Phiri: Madam Speaker, that is news to us and, therefore, I can not confirm that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.


373. Mr Mukanga asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) what the amount of gemstones exported from Zambia in 2008 was; and

(b) how much revenue was collected by the Government as a result of the gemstone exports at (a) above.

          The Deputy Minister of Mines Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Madam Speaker, the total amount of gemstone exported from Zambia in 2008 were worth US$28,599,151 broken down as follows:

Gemstone  Qty (Kg)  Value (US$)

Amethyst       874,893    1,696,262
Emerald/Beryl  37,046,002  25,783,343
Tourmaline    9,088,901       171,492
Aquamarine    7,986,087       357,215
Citrine            6,107       395,081
Quartz          85,304         62,265
Garnet            3,404.42       118,852
Topaz               473.98         14,641

As regards part (b) of the question, Madam Speaker, the revenue collected by the Government as a result of exports, a total of K5,170,257,279 in revenue was collected, broken down as follows:

(i)  Mineral Royalty   K4,204,537,032

(ii)  Company tax    K    939,720,247

(iii)  Gemstone valuation charges  K      26,000,000

Total     K5,170,257,279

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, Zambian gemstones are among the best minerals in the world and, if properly regulated, would contribute greatly to poverty alleviation in the country. I would like to find out what the Government is doing to regulate and monitor the gemstone industry from the mining point to the selling point in order to stop the activities of foreign exchange flight in the industry currently prevailing.

The Minister of Mines Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Madam Speaker, the hon. Member, in essence, is recognising that the gemstone industry is quite complex. Zambia is not an island and wherever gemstone mining is taking place, he knows fully well that smuggling is one of the problems of the industry.

As a Government, what we ought to realise is that the sector is in private hands and is driven by the private investors. We, as a Government, take keen interest in ensuring that we receive what is due to us. However, what the hon. Member should realise is that it is us, Zambians, who are perpetuating the same issue of smuggling the emeralds outside the country.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that most of these gemstone mines are in private hands, but if you look at the statistics, it is a lot of foreign companies that are dealing in these gemstones. What are we doing, as a Government and as Zambians, to see and make sure that we have locals who are also key in gemstone mining because, as of now, we do not have any?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, before I go on to respond to the supplementary question by the hon. Member, I would like to inform the House that Government shareholding in Kagem Mining Limited has been diluted from 55 per cent to 25 per cent, which means that the private owners have 75 per cent.

As regards the issues that the hon. Member has raised, I am surprised that the hon. Member can raise that issue because if he is fully aware, and he should know, that we had Kamakanga Mines which was owned by a Zambian, but it is the same Zambian who sold it to a foreigner. The same issue has been repeated over and over where we, Zambians, when we have assets, quickly sell them to foreigners. Just like here, we have an area called Madras where the Zambian Government decided to empower Zambians with houses, but if you take a walk there now, you will see who owns those houses.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, if I heard my former party member correctly, he said that revenues were less than K6 billion from the entire gemstone industry. Even at last year’s exchange rates, it is not even US$2 million and is not even enough to buy one vehicle or a mobile hospital. On what basis does he pretend that there is a gemstone industry with these kinds of peanuts as all that we are getting, as a country, from the exploitation of our natural resources?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I share his concern that, as nation, we should benefit more from our mineral resources. However, I would suggest that if he has ideas on how best we can go about it, we can share them with him and I am free to meet him.

I thank you, Madam.


374. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport what measures the Government had taken on public service vehicle drivers who, in most cases, have caused unnecessary accidents on Zambian roads.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Madam Speaker, Public Service Vehicle (PSV) drivers play a very important role in the development of the economy by moving people and goods from one place to another thereby creating value. In order to make these PSV drivers create an even greater value by avoiding unnecessary road traffic accidents, the Ministry of Communications and Transport, through the Road Traffic and Safety Agency, has put in place a two-pronged approach response as follows:

(a) Strategies to reduce the occurrence of accidents.

These are measures which focus on minimizing the occurrence of accidents. They include:

(i) examination of the PSV drivers on first issuance and renewal of their PSV licenses;

(ii) ensuring that applicants of PSV licenses have medical reports which will determine whether the applicant has any medical condition which may negatively impact the safety of other road users; and

(iii) RTSA endeavours to ensure that all PSVs licensed have, at least, third party insurance to compensate appropriate RTA victims.

(b)Strategies to reduce the impact of RTAs if they occur

These measures are aimed at reducing the impact of RTAs if they occur. The ministry, through the RTSA, has facilitated implementation of a multi-sectoral response to RTAs among the RTSA, National Road Fund Agency (NRFA), Zambia Police Service, Ministry of Health and the insurance fraternity through the setting up of a committee to investigate the possibility of setting up an accident fund. This committee is, however, yet to meet.

Further, in order to discourage other PSV drivers from being careless and committing similar offences, erring PSV drivers are punished and their driving licenses revoked if they are found guilty. The ministry, through the RTSA, has also intensified road traffic patrols in Lusaka and on all the high ways in the country.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Katuka: Madam, may I know from the hon. Minister, in his infinite wisdom, if these measures taken have yielded any tangible results.

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Speaker, it was only last week that we answered a question on the number of accidents that have taken place in the last three years and in the statistics that we gave, it was clear that the accidents were not increasing with high proportions.

Madam Speaker, these measures that we have taken are at two levels. The first level deals with deterrence and the second level is compensation. Clearly, in terms of deterrence, the measures that we have taken if one is to do a clear assessment, he would find that they are contributing to improvement on the roads on the part of the PSV drivers.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Madam, how will the ministry ensure that victims of public transport accidents are compensated?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam, in our response, we indicated that possession of insurance is part of the requirement for possessing a PSV driving license, but at the same time, possession of insurance of a vehicle is, of course, a requirement in having the vehicle used on Zambian roads. It is through the insurance system that compensation is assured to the victims of road traffic accidents.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu):  Madam, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the Government has any plans to introduce breathalysers for the PSV drivers at check points throughout the country so that drinking of alcohol whilst driving is stopped.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam, I think, in the first week of this session, I answered that question. I said, yes, we have breathalysers on the roads and they are in effect.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam, as for me, there is no adequate compensation to loss of human life. May I find out, as a matter of interest, how many licenses were revoked from the PSV drivers.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam, clearly, the hon. Member knows that such a question will require us to look for the figures and if he can ask it, we shall be able to give him definite figures at the right time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Madam, the worst culprits are the mini-bus drivers. What difficulties has the Government encountered in trying to bring these mini-bus drivers to normality?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam, I wish the hon. Member was clear in his question. What is abnormal about mini-bus driving? I think that is what he needs to clarify. If he can clarify that, then we shall give him a response.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Madam, sometime back, buses were stopped from travelling at night, but now most buses are starting off from the Inter-City Bus Terminal at night and arriving at their destinations in the morning. This is causing a lot of accidents. What is the Government doing about this?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam, interventions in terms of safety are responses to situations as they arise. The stoppage of buses from travelling at night was a response, of course, to the preponderance of accidents at that time. This cannot be a perpetual intervention because it might contribute to inconveniencing the passengers and that is why the ban was lifted.

I thank you, Sir.


375. Ms Kapata (Mandevu) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) how many privately owned nursing schools were operating in Zambia, province by province;

(b) what the pass rate of the institutions at (a) above were; and

(c) whether there were any institutions at (a) above which had been deregistered due to poor performance.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Madam Speaker, there are eight private nursing schools and colleges operating in Zambia. Of these, seven are registered nursing schools and one is an enrolled nursing school. The schools are as follows:

   Name of school   Location

  Lusaka Health Institute,   Lusaka

  ESU School of Nursing,   Lusaka

  Lusaka Nursing Institute,   Lusaka

  Dovecot Nursing College   Lusaka

  Makeni College of Nursing   Lusaka

  Copperbelt Polytechnic   Ndola

  Western College of Nursing   Livingstone

Western College of Nursing  Mongu 
 (Enrolled Nursing School)
 and Midwifery.

As regards (b), Madam Speaker, in 2008, only forty-four schools, namely, Western College of Nursing in Livingstone, Lusaka Nursing Institute in Lusaka and Lusaka Health Institute in Lusaka managed to graduate students. The pass rates for the schools were as follows:

Name of School  No. of Students Passed Exams  Percentage

Western College    33   9   27
Nursing – 

Lusaka Nursing      7   7   100
Institute – Lusaka

Lusaka Health     17   11      65
Institute – Lusaka

Western College of   33     9      28
Nursing and Midwifery       (June 2008)
- Mongu (Enrolled 
Nursing School)

Western College of    44        10           43
Nursing and Midwifery (December 
- Mongu (Enrolled     2008)     
Nursing School)

There are no figures for the remaining schools as they have not yet graduated any students.

Madam Speaker, none of the above schools have been deregistered.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out why the Ministry of Health funded the ESU Nursing School which is situated in Chudleigh at the expense of our own Government-run institutions?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, although the hon. Member has not explained for what purpose the funding was made, I would, also, like to find out whether it was for student sponsorship or school establishment. I will leave it at that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures have been put in place to ensure that only properly qualified and nurses of good standing join the profession.

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, every institution has got its own prerequisites and standards which are regulated by authorities. If a student does not meet the prerequisites for minimum entry, they would not be qualified to join the profession.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe): Madam Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether these schools are attached to the Government or private hospitals for their practicals.

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, I can confirm that during the last strike, we had students from these private colleges attached to Government institutions.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Madam Speaker, one of thes nursing schools the hon. Minister referred to was mentioned in the recent ‘Kapoko Plunder Cases.’ I am sure that everybody is aware that these nursing schools are accommodating a lot of vulnerable women in our society. If the worst comes to the worst, as we have seen some institutions being closed down because of what plunder has done to this country, and we see this school closing down because it benefited from the plunder, what will happen to the students? I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures the Government has put in place.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member seems to be trading on issues that may be in court and that would make it difficult for the hon. Minister to comment freely.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures the ministry has put in place to ensure that there is gender balance among the people who are going enrolling at these institutions and those that are graduating.

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, whilst we can have input in who goes into a school in terms of gender equality, we cannot foretell, out of these, who will make it and pass the examinations. Therefore, I cannot guarantee, hon. Member.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}


376. Dr Katema (Chingola) asked the Minister of Works and Supply when construction works on the proposed Kitwe/Chingola dual carriage way would commence.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Works and Supply, through the RDA, has immediate intentions to increase the traffic-carrying capacity of the Kitwe/Chingola Road in order to promote safety on the road. To this end, the RDA awarded and signed a contract for carrying a technical economic study, detailed engineering design and preparation of tender documents for dualling the Kitwe/Chingola Road. The agreement was signed on 7th November, 2008 with Messers Rankin Engineering. The consultant has since completed the assignment in July 2009. The ministry shall start on the tender process to get a contractor.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Katema: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if he is aware that along this proposed road at Chambishi, on the left hand side, there is a plant for the mine and on the right hand side the land has been alienated right up to the road side to the developers of the Chinese Multi-facility Development Zone (MFEZ). If he is aware, what is the Government doing to safeguard that land which has been alienated so that the road can be constructed?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Madam Speaker, the purpose of a consultant conducting a feasibility study and an engineering design is to attend to those issues in particular. There is no way you can construct a road without conducting feasibility studies and an engineering design. Therefore, all those issues have been taken into account.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, with the coming of the MFEZ at Chambishi and the construction of a modern stadium in Ndola, which will attract more people from neighbouring countries, is the hon. Minister considering constructing a Kitwe/Chingola Dual Carriage Way before the two facilities are completed.

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, in fact, we are proceeding very quickly under the Private Partnership Programme (PPP). We have already been approached by an investor who would like to construct a dual carriage way and I suppose the construction should begin as quickly as possible. Therefore, we are anxious to have it done not only because of what you have said, but to also just safeguard the lives of the people who use that road.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Speaker, the lives of our people are very important. Over the past few months, we have seen carnage on this Kitwe/Chingola Road. A few days ago, we read in our papers that about seven lives were lost and several other people were injured in a Mopani bus which was involved in a road accident on the same road. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether his Government has not seen this as an urgent matter to push the contractor on site, as soon as possible, to ensure that the road is worked on.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, I have explained that we have finished the design and engineering works and the next part is to, first of all, find money or invite the private sector to participate. We are conscious of the fact that, yes, there are accidents on that road and the problem is not so much about the road itself, but road users as well. I made an appeal, last time, that we must be very cautious in the way we drive on these roads because at the end of the day, we have got lives to protect.

   We still have accidents even on the dual carriageway between Ndola and Kitwe. Therefore, what is important is not so much whether a road is a dual carriage, but the manner in which people drive on it. It is the drivers that must be cautious as they drive on this road so that safety is a priority. Therefore, even when you construct a dual carriageway, if people are reckless, we will still have accidents.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, the proposed dual carriageway is being developed under the PPP initiative. This means that when it is commissioned, they will be told to charge people.

Madam Speaker, many peasant farmers, small-scale farmers, ordinary people and I have farms along that road. Therefore, when this road is completed, will everybody, including the people I have mentioned be expected to pay these tolls?

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, I did not say that this road is being developed under the PPP initiative. It is a Government project, but we have invited investors to participate. I said that because of the PPP initiative, some investors have said that they are willing to participate in this development. However, there is a law that already exists for the tolling of roads. This law was passed a long time ago. One thing we are conscious of is that of course, there are people who cannot afford to pay this. Whenever you toll a road, there is always an endeavour to make an alternative available to those who cannot afford. We are mindful of the fact that not all of us can pay. There has been a slight delay in tolling the roads just to ensure that those who cannot afford are also given a law to use.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, I wonder why we are still talking about the Chingola Dual Carriageway because, at one time, hon. Members of Parliament from the Copperbelt were told to forego any road project in their constituencies and concentrate on this road. What happened for us to still be talking about this road?

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member did not tell the House whether they did actually forego the projects. Therefore, without that information, I am unable to say anything.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simuusa: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether we are talking about constructing a dual carriageway or simply widening the current road to make it a four lane highway. Could the hon. Minister clarify that?

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, I do not know whether dual carriageway means that there must be an island in between or a mere four lane highway. I think the hon. Member can be the best person to define that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, we had foregone all road contracts on the Copperbelt three years ago and were told that we were going to have a dual carriageway. Unless the plan was changed, I would like to find out how many contractors have come forward to partner with the Government on this road project under the PPP initiative.

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, the first task is to do the feasibility study and the engineering design. Once we have done that, we will advertise the project. We have not advertised yet. We have just concluded the engineering design. All I will mention to you is that one investor has already come to offer themselves to do this project. An advert is going to be done because we are a transparent Government. 
I thank you, Madam.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Madam Speaker, is there a general plan by the Government to consider turning congested roads into dual carriageways. I am taking into consideration the needs of the people of Chingola and those who use the Great North Road.

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, it is not only the issue of turning roads into dual carriageways. As we develop, we might go beyond that. As far as we are concerned, whenever it is possible, it is going to be done. This is why this House will debate the Public-Private Partnership Bill which intends is to establish a framework to get the  private sector to participate in infrastructure development. Therefore, I would like to encourage the hon. Member for Katuba to entice those people he knows who have the capacity to help in the construction of dual carriageway roads and bridges.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, I need to be guided. The hon. Minister mentioned that they have done the road design. He also stated that there is a law known as the Public-Private Partnership Act which is coming in. Are we making the law in anticipation of that particular contractor or as a matter of principle?

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, I am worried that the hon. Member has not been following what has been happening. We launched a PPP Policy, as a Government, some months ago. The reason we are enacting the PPP law is to support that policy. It is a general policy that we would like the public and private sectors to partner in infrastructure development. Therefore, as far as we are concerned, we are not targeting a specific investor. We are targeting everybody, including the hon. Member, if he has the capacity to do a project.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.


377. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a) how many hotels were in the Bangweulu Game Management Area (GMA) in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency;

(b) whether there were any plans to construct more hotels in the GMA above;

(c) when the airstrip in this GMA would be improved; and

(d) when the road leading to the Bangweulu GMA would be constructed.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Mwangala): Madam Speaker, there are no hotels in Bangweulu Game Management Area (GMA). There are only two tourist camps in the GMA namely Shoebill and Nsobe Camps.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) has indicated in the business plan for Bangweulu GMA the need to encourage private investors to build tourist facilities in the area. The number of possible tourist facilities that could be built in the GMA will be specified in the general management plan, which ZAWA is preparing.

Madam Speaker, there are two airstrips in Bangweulu GMA namely Chikuni and Chiundaponde. The rehabilitation of both airstrips will commence as soon as funds are available.

Finally, Madam Speaker, the Chiundaponde Road that leads to Bangweulu GMA already exists, but requires rehabilitation regularly. The Road Development Agency (RDA) started rehabilitating the road last year and is expected to complete the works soon.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister indicated that there are only two camps in Bangweulu GMA. I would like to find out whether there are any plans being put in place by the Government to entice investors to invest in the hospitality industry.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Madam Speaker, Bangweulu GMA is part of the northern circuit that, as a Government, we are working on in terms of infrastructure development and marketing. 
Madam Speaker, the development of accommodation facilities in areas like the Bangweulu GMA is a private sector initiative which even the hon. Member can undertake. For instance, building a lodge is something that every one of us should be interested in because it is a business venture. I would like to take this opportunity to appeal to the Zambians at large not to consider investors as only those who come from outside the country because they too can be investors.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, it is quite perplexing that whenever we talk about access to GMAs, we only talk about roads. When will the Government think of constructing canals to lead to places such as GMAs since they play an important role in the tourism sector?

Ms Namugala: Madam Speaker, accessibility to tourist sites can be by air, road or canals. As a Government, we are committed to progressively providing that accessibility.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, one of the reasons we may not be attracting investors in the area is the bad state of the roads and the general facilitation that is required to be done by the Government. I am very certain that if we demanded for this, the Government would tell us that there is no money. However, we have about 6.5 tonnes of ivory going back and forth between Nairobi and the Far East. Surely, if that ivory was disposed of, my friend, the hon. Minister, would raise enough money for the rehabilitation of the infrastructure so that investors can go in.  Has she a comment to that effect?

Ms Namugala: Madam Speaker, the issue of the ivory in Kenya is not related to the question on the Floor. However, I would like to shed some light on this issue. Indeed, there is 6.5 tonnes of ivory lying in Kenya. The Government, through my ministry, has made attempts to communicate to the Lusaka Agreement, in whose custody this ivory is, to try and retrieve it. However, even if we retrieved this ivory, its disposal would be subject to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) conditionalities.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC, (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, poaching is one of the serious problems that the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has to contend with. However, apart from poaching, there is a tendency by some foreigners to fly into GMAs and land at airstrips in order to steal wildlife. Does your ministry, through ZAWA, guard these airstrips which are being used for poaching and stealing wildlife?

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources may choose to answer that question. We are, again, moving away from the original question.

Ms Namugala: Madam Speaker, indeed, we have a problem with poaching. The airstrips in the GMAs and national parks are patrolled by ZAWA police officers. However, if the hon. Member for Chasefu is aware of any foreigners who fly into a particular GMA and poach, we will be glad to get the particulars of such a person or entity.

I thank you, Madam.


378. Mr Mwenya (Nkana) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:
(a) what the maximum detention period was before a suspect detained by the Zambia Police Force appeared in a court of law; and

(b)   who was responsible for the detainee’s well-being, such as food, water and beddings, during the detention period.  

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Madam Speaker, persons arrested without warrant …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Let us lower our voices when making consultations.

Mr Bonshe: … for offences which are not punishable by death must be brought before a competent court within twenty-four hours. However, persons arrested under a warrant who need to be transferred to a district where they committed an offence may appear after the stipulated twenty-four hours due to the time involved in travelling.

Madam Speaker, the officer in-charge of a police station is responsible for the detainee’s well-being. He appoints an officer called custody officer to be in-charge of police cells. Although the police do not provide food, the custody officer facilitates that food provided by relatives to the detainee is given to such a detainee. There are no beddings in police cells, but relatives are free to bring them for the detainees.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwenya: Madam Speaker, it is a known fact that a person detained without a warrant is deemed innocent until proven guilty. Looking at the state of the cells in this country and the manner that they detain suspects, is that not the worst kind of human rights abuse?

Mr Bonshe: Madam Speaker, there is no human rights abuse. Suspects are kept in police custody for a period authorised by law, which is twenty-four hours, and thereafter appear in the courts of law.


379. Dr Kalumba (Chienge) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how many mining companies were granted licenses for the following in Chienge District:

(i) large-scale mining;

(ii) exploration; and

(iii) small-scale  (artisan) mining;

(b) what the known extent of mineralisation in Chienge District was today; and

(c) when a comprehensive survey of minerals was going to be conducted in Chienge District.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that a total of seven mining companies were granted licences in Chienge district as follows:

 i. Large-scale mining      Nil
          ii. Exploration 

Name Type of  Number of Date of  Date of  Minerals
 Licence   Licence   Grant  expiry

Anvil   Large-      LPL 205    26/10/05   25/10/09              Cobalt
 Mine   scale        Copper
 Ltd   prospecting       Gold 

 Central   Large-                  10459 29/05/09  28/05/11              Copper
 African    scale       HQ-LPL     Cobalt
 Mining   prospecting       Gold
 Ltd         Diamond
          Zinc, Silver
          and Manganese

        iii. Small Scale Mining

Name Type o f Number of Date of  Date of  Minerals
  Licence Licences Grant  Expiry

 Central  Small-scale SML 263 04/08/06               03/08/16             Cobalt
 African   mining                   Copper
 Mining  licence                   Gold
         Ltd  Zinc     
Central    Small-Scale SML264               04/07/16    03/07/16 Cobalt 
African    mining        Copper
Mining       licence                                                                                                    Gold
Ltd                     Zinc
Emmanuel Small-Scale SML 266  31/08/16    30/08/16 Cobalt
 Chisala     Mining       Copper
                 Licence       Iron

 George     Small- Scale  SML 283   24/11/06      23/11/11 Copper
 Shebele     Mining       
 Mwase     Licence

iv.   Prospecting Permit

Northern            Prosp- SPP 294              10/09/07     09/09/09        Copper
Star  ecting       Cobalt
International        Iron
Ltd         Silver

      v.   Artisan Mining Nil

Madam Speaker, Chienge District has already been geologically mapped by my ministry through the Geological Survey Department. However, the report and maps have not yet been published. The area has copper, salts, uranium and occurrences of diamonds.

Madam Speaker, a comprehensive survey of mineral exploration activities has been left to private companies because of the huge costs involved. Currently, Anvil Mining Limited holds a large-scale prospecting licence covering the Chienge District. However, part of the Anvil Mining Limited’s prospecting area has been granted to Central Africa Mining Limited which has been considered for a large-scale prospecting licence.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}


380. Mr Nyirenda (Kamfinsa) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when the ministry would improve sanitation and provide clean drinking water to residents of Kamfinsa Mobile Unit and Kamfinsa Prison in Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Kamfinsa Mobile Unit and Kamfinsa Prison in Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency have a common reservoir and the water is treated. However, last year, due to Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) power cuts, the installation faced an erratic supply of water that subsequently affected the sanitation at Kamfinsa Mobile Unit and Kamfinsa Prison.

The Police Service has a programme of rehabilitating water and sewer systems under the Poverty Reduction Programme (PRP) this year. The programme will be extended to Kamfinsa Constituency in order to improve sanitation and provide clean drinking water. However, it must be borne in mind that huge sums of money are required because there is also need to reconstruct the dam which was made when Kamfinsa was established in 1958.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker

Mr Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the tank and borehole which were erected and drilled in the 1990s have not been utilised. If he is aware, what is the ministry doing about it?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Madam Speaker, indeed, we are aware, but we are looking at the major problem that is affecting Kamfinsa Prison. This is to say that we have to handle the problem of water supply, particularly, from the dam. As you know, there was an assessment which was done by Nkana Water and Sewerage Company. The company recommended that the long-term solution to this problem is the improvement of the dam. That is what we are looking into. Right now, we are doing routine maintenance and trying to unblock the system.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr P. P. Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, alternatively, are there any plans to drill boreholes in this area?

Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, it may be a duplication of functions. The long-term solution is to work on the dam.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.






Clauses 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4 – (Repeal and replacement of section 16)

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa) (on behalf of the Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, on page 7:

(a) in line 1 by the insertion of ‘(1)’ between the number ‘16’ and the word ‘Upon’; and

(b) after line 4 by the insertion of the following new subsection:

 (2) The person holding the office of Director of Public Prosecutions, shall, on the commencement of this Act, be conferred with the rank and dignity of State Counsel by the President.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.




The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through the Committee with amendment:

The Legal Practitioners (Amendment) Bill, 2009

Report Stage on Thursday, 30th July, 2009.




The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.


Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to develop and gazette the Citizens Economic Empowerment Sector Codes.

Madam Speaker, I would like to express my gratitude to you for according me this opportunity to move my Motion on the need for Government to Gazette the Economic Empowerment Sector Codes and accelerate implementing the Citizens Economic Empowerment Programme (CEEP).

Madam Speaker, programmes designed and aimed at economically empowering the poor people of Zambia are not a new concept. They have been tried by the previous administrations, although in different forms.

We had the Zambianisation Programme under Dr Kaunda’s Administration where strategic companies such as copper mines and electricity companies were nationalised to allow for greater control and benefit by the indigenous people of Zambia.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear! That is nice to hear from you!


Mr Sikota: We also witnessed the creation of over 300 state owned companies and farms for the benefit of ordinary Zambians. Free education was also introduced in order to deal with the skills deficit we inherited at independence.

Madam Speaker, other programmes designed to economically empower ordinary citizens were done under Dr Fredrick Chiluba’s Administration. The Vendor’s Desk at State House, we believe, was another attempt at helping poor people come out of poverty.

The other programme was the introduction of the Presidential Housing Initiative (PHI) which was aimed at providing affordable accommodation to ordinary citizens.

Madam Speaker, one of the major empowerment programmes which was done under Dr Chiluba’s Administration was the privatisation of state owned companies. Nearly all state owned companies and farms were sold to private companies and individuals.

The ordinary and poor Zambians lost out under the Privatisation Empowerment Programme (PEP) because of the failure by the Government to provide sector codes that would have protected the interests of poor Zambians.

Madam Speaker, here lies the greatest danger of any citizens economic empowerment programme. We must as a nation guard our empowerment programmes from being hijacked by foreign interests. Empowerment programmes must truly benefit the ordinary people of Zambia and not a few foreign businessmen and those in Government.

Madam Speaker, despite the many flows that were witnessed under these empowerment programmes, we appreciate all the efforts that were made by previous administrations towards the economic empowerment of the ordinary among our people.

Madam Speaker, the current Government has also introduced what is known as the Citizen Economic Empowerment Programme (CEEP), under which the Economic Empowerment Act of 2006 was enacted.

Madam Speaker, allow me to quote from the preliminary statement to the Economic Empowerment Act of 2006 for the benefit of those in Government and this House that have not taken time to read the Empowerment Act:

“An Act to establish the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) and to define its function and powers; establish the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund (CEEF); promote the economic empowerment of targeted citizens, citizen empowered companies, citizen influenced companies and citizen owned companies; promote gender-equality in accessing, owning, managing, controlling and exploiting economic resources; encourage an increase in broad based and effective ownership and meaningful participation of targeted citizens, citizen empowered companies, citizen influenced companies and citizen owned companies in the economy in order to contribute to sustainable economic growth; remove social customs, statutory provisions or other practices that limit access to any particular gender to skills training that is essential for effective participation in the economic sector; promote the employment of both gender by removing structural and discriminatory constraints that hinder any particular gender from employment opportunities and in so doing ensure equitable income distribution; promote equal opportunity of targeted citizens and citizen empowered companies, citizen influenced companies and citizen owned companies in accessing and being awarded procurement contracts and other services from state institutions; promote greenfield investment through joint ventures and partnerships between local and foreign investors in order to enhance broad based economic empowerment; and provide for matters incidental to or connected to the foregoing.”

Madam Speaker, the preliminary statement is loaded with very good intentions, but our worry has been the slow pace at which the Government is moving towards implementing the economic empowerment programme.

Madam Speaker, I am very familiar with the struggles of poverty and hunger that the poor people of this country are going through. Anybody else familiar with the struggles of the poor people of Zambia should support and guard against the manipulation of any efforts that are genuinely designed to help the poor people of this country.

Madam Speaker, there is no dignity in poverty. That is why everything possible should be done quickly in order to economically empower the majority of poor people in Zambia. Poor people are, in most cases, subjected to harsh working conditions. The poor are denied access to finances to help themselves get out of poverty by the very banks that the Government has identified to administer the CEEF.

Madam Speaker, if I had my way, I would not allow the banks that have denied poor people access to finances for many years to administer this fund. Allow me, at this moment, to propose to the Government not to put CEEF money in banks and financial institutions that have a history of refusing to give loans to peasant farmers and the poor people of this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, if the Government has already put money in these banks, there is need to reconsider this issue and withdraw economic empowerment funds from these banks. In short, poor people have no choice of what type of life they need to live and hope for the poor people of any country in the world is vested in the hands of the Government. The Government should be responsible enough to help our people break out of the shackles of poverty without any further delay.

Madam Speaker, it is for this very reason that I have decided to introduce this Motion which I hope will make the Government accelerate the process of implementing the citizens’ empowerment programme, including sector codes. In emphasising the need for the Government to accelerate the implementation of the CEEP, allow me to remind the Government of the very high levels of poverty prevailing in our country.

It is unacceptable to have over 80 per cent of our people are living in abject poverty when funds are available to help them get out of poverty. Why is there a delay in implementing CEEP? We hope the delay is as a result of identifying the true beneficiaries of this programme and that is the poor of this country. I must warn the Government that the CEEP is not for a few privileged officials and their relatives. It is for every poor and disadvantaged Zambian who needs to be assisted to break out of the shackles of poverty.

Those who are given the responsibility to manage the CEEP and disburse the funds will be judged harshly, should they allow this programme to be manipulated to the benefit of those who are not entitled. It is almost impossible for this country to become a middle income economy by 2030 with 80 per cent of the people living in abject poverty. If the Government is serious about transforming this country into a middle income economy by 2030, it has to accelerate implementation of the CEEP so that within five years, the majority of our people can be moved out of the shackles of poverty.

Madam Speaker, in order for the CEEP to effectively benefit the poor people of Zambia, there is an urgent need for the Government to gazette the sector codes under the priority areas identified under this programme. The priority areas in which the Government should gazette the sector codes include mining, agriculture, tourism, infrastructure development, education, health and financial services. In emphasising this point, allow me to explain what I mean by sector codes, for the benefit of my brothers Hon. Ng’andu Magande, who is not in the House at the moment, Hon. David Matongo and Hon. Request Muntanga and others …


Mr Sikota: … including Hon. Major Chizhyuka that sector codes, in this case, do not mean the ropes that Hon. Muntanga uses to tie up his tobacco when curing it at his farm in Kalomo.


Mr Sikota: Again, sector codes do not mean the ropes that Hon. Magande uses to make straight lines when planting his maize after the cows have ploughed his fields. Hon. Matongo and, indeed, Hon. Tetamashimba should remember that sector codes in this case are simply not ropes.

Madam Speaker, on a serious note, by sector codes, I mean levels of involvement with which we want ordinary and poor Zambians to participate in the mainstream economic activities of this country through ownership of a meaningful percentage of shares in the companies that are already involved in the priority areas of this economy and the foreign companies that wish to invest in areas such as mining and infrastructure development. Allow me to give examples of areas in which sector codes, if quickly gazetted, can benefit the poor people of this country. We want sector codes to apply in tourism, mining and infrastructure development.

In the sector of tourism, most of the money that comes into this country through tourism, unfortunately, leaves this country as quickly as it came because the tourism industry is dominated by companies that are largely owned by foreigners, and this needs to change. We are urging this Government to gazette sector codes so that companies such as Intercontinental Hotel and others that are involved in dominating the tourism sector appropriate a good percentage of the shares to ordinary indigenous Zambians for the benefit of the poor in this country.

Madam Speaker, I am afraid that without the Government gazetting the sector codes in priority areas of the economy, our people will continue to be confined to the “Tuntemba” sections of our economy while the foreigners will continue harvesting from our resources. It is important that the sector codes are gazetted to make the CEEP meaningful to the lives of the poor people in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the infrastructure development is another area of priority where the Government needs to enforce sector codes to allow for the participation of ordinary Zambians as this is an area which will develop the country. Whether by design or by coincidence, it is common knowledge that the majority of contracts to rehabilitate and develop new infrastructure in Zambia, particularly the road network, are given to foreign-owned companies  and the smaller percentage to Zambian businesses with links to those in authority.

Madam Speaker, this practice of awarding contracts mainly to foreign firms and local businesses that have links to those with the responsibility of awarding contracts have disadvantaged the poor people whom we all preach to want to serve. There is need for transparency and fairness in awarding contracts for infrastructure development so that even the ordinary Zambians can benefit from investments in this sector. The Government should also ask foreign companies that wish to get contracts in infrastructure development to implement sector codes for the participation of indigenous Zambians. Government should ensure that foreign companies that are currently involved in road rehabilitation and other infrastructure development works surrender not less than 35 per cent of their controlling shares to indigenous Zambians who will be identified under the CEEP.

Madam Speaker, mining is another area of the economy which requires urgent gazetting and implementation of sector codes that would allow for indigenous employees in mining companies such as Konkola Copper Mines and poor indigenous Zambians to own a percentage of the mining activities and enjoy the benefits of their mineral resources. Foreign companies should go beyond the social responsibility of giving out desks to rural schools and painting buildings. There is need for these companies to voluntarily surrender some shares in line with the proposed sector codes in mining and tourism. The Government can learn from the black economic empowerment programme being implemented by the South African Government on sector codes, particularly in mining.

Madam Speaker, the black economic empowerment programme of South Africa is reshaping the ownership of the mining industry in that country. I will cite a few examples from which the Government of the Republic of Zambia can learn.

In 2007, black economic empowerment deals in South Africa’s platinum industry have resulted in the transfer of US $4.8 billion or R35 billion worth of assets to previously historically disadvantaged black South Africans and employee groups. This is a good deal from which the Government can pick ideas.

South African’s platinum industry is changing fundamentally with two black empowerment groups Anooraq and Mvela Resources taking up control respectively of the third and fifth largest Platinum Group Metals (PGMS) resource bases in South Africa.

The transaction involved Anglo Platinum selling an effective 51 per cent of Lebowa Platinum and an effective 1 per cent of the GA-Phasha Project for a total consideration of R3.6 billion or US $495 million to Anooraq.

Following on from this deal Anooraq, being the current owner of 50 per cent of GA-Phasha, now owns an effective 51 per cent of the Lebowa and GA-Phasha through a newly created vehicle under the black economic empowerment, called Lebowa Holdco. Mvela resources also purchased Anglo Platinum’s 50 per cent interest in the Booysendal project and 22.4 per cent direct interest in Northam for R4 billion or US $550 million.

Employee Share Ownership in Mining Companies

Madam Speaker, Anglo Platinum also announced an Employee Share Ownership Plan (ESOP) that will enfranchise 43,000 employees. This new scheme includes all employees, who do not participate in any Anglo platinum share scheme and will comprise up to 1.5 per cent of Anglo Platinum’s issued share capital, the current market value of which is around R3.3 billion or US $454.

These transactions, together with Anglo Platinum’s Employee Share Ownership Programme, resulted in about R35 billion of assets being put under the historically disadvantaged South Africans’ control.

In Zambia, most companies who promised employee share ownership, when acquiring entities through the privatisation process, have not implemented this, as they see no urgency in terms of sector codes by the Government. Even, currently, it is only last week that we heard that the sale of Nanga Farms from ZAMBEEF to Ilovo which, under the provisions of the ownership, needs shares to go to Zambians. These shares are not going to go to targeted citizens, but it is proposed that they go to management and directors, who are Zambian and not targeted citizens. A targeted citizen, under the Act, is defined as a citizen who is or has been marginalised or disadvantaged and whose access to economic resources and development capacity has been constrained due to various factors including race, sex, educational background, status and disability.

Madam Speaker, clearly, what is proposed with the sale from ZAMBEEF to Ilovo will not impact on the targeted citizens. It also means that we shall not get good or the best workers and citizens’ participation. One of the aims of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act is to get broad-based economic empowerment. Sections 27 and 29 of the Act deal with this and require that there should be broad-based economic empowerment. With these sector codes being put in place, it would be possible to ensure that this broad-based economic empowerment of targeted citizens does take place.

Madam Speaker, the examples from the South African Black Economic Empowerment Programme should compel the Government to quickly gazette the sector codes so that ordinary people of Zambia can start to participate in the mainstream economy and to benefit from the abundant natural resources of the country. The provisions for share ownership by workers should be in all sectors and not only the mining sector.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to urge the Government to gazette the economic empowerment sector codes in order to speed up the implementation of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Programme for the benefit of ordinary Zambians and not for those in authority.

Whilst appreciating that funds are now being disbursed through the CEEC, it must be emphasised that citizens economic empowerment is best enhanced not be merely releasing small sums of money ranging from K50 million to K500 million.

Madam Speaker, it is exactly three years, two months and eighteen days to this day since the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act which established the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission and the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund was assented to on May 12, 2006.

This is a very long time for Zambians to wait for assistance under the Economic Empowerment Programme. The positive impact on the lives of ordinary and poor Zambians that will come with the quick and full implementation of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Programme should encourage the Government to gazette the sector codes without delay.

Madam Speaker, the Government should work quickly and efficiently to ensure that the Citizens Economic Empowerment Programme does not become an administrative burden on the people of Zambia or merely a fund to help Zambians make small investments of $10,000 to $100,000, but an investment in equal prosperity for all Zambians which allows them to become major players in Zambia’s major industries.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Can I borrow that definition?

Madam Deputy Speaker: Debate, hon. Member. There is no borrowing here.


Madam Deputy Speaker: If you want to borrow, do it quietly. There is no need to tell us what you want to do. Can you give your own speech?


Major Chizhyuka: Thank you, Madam Speaker. First of all, I want to stand and support the Motion on the Floor which was delivered to a point where I was telling myself it is presidential - well delivered and well researched to the point of addressing the economic quagmire in which the people, particularly the down trodden people of this country, live. I want to thank the mover for bringing such a very important Motion to this House and, therefore, I would like to second it.

Madam Speaker, at the centre of this whole debate are issues which we have discussed in this House in piecemeal, in some instances.  The examples that have just been given have been discussed before and I would love to see the hon. Minister of Health and the new hon. Minister of Education paying attention …


Major Chizhyuka: … because we are talking about empowering the people that they are leading in this country. An important Motion like this must be given the due attention it deserves.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: A little while ago, the hon. Member for Chienge was talking about mineralisation in his constituency. I know, for instance, that Chienge, as a matter of fact, has one of the largest concentrations of copper in this country. In fact, there is a belief that one can easily mine copper in this area with a hoe. However, going by this Government’s way of doing things, I can see Hon. Kalumba’s grandfather being displaced from his forefather’s land in order to give way to an Australian or Chinese firm to mine copper there. The Chinese, Australians or Indians would become richer while Kalumba’s father’s and grandfathers become poorer.

Madam Speaker, is there a problem in getting this Government to understand the intricacy of wealth creation for its people? Is there a problem for the people in the Executive to understand that by sheer acknowledgement of equity participation of their people, as Hon. Sakwiba Sikota was putting it, they would be creating a lot of wealth for themselves and their people, especially the downtrodden?

The example of Anglo Platinum that was given is one that I have used here before. Today, as I came into Parliament after a meeting, the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development was talking about construction of a stadium through a loan from the Chinese. Zambia is rich in copper, cobalt, uranium, gold, gemstones and 47 per cent of the water resource in the Sub-Sahara Africa is all embedded on its territory. Why should the people in the Government go to China to borrow money for building a stadium? This is the richest country in the sub region in terms of natural resources.  In case they are not aware, Hon. Sakwiba Sikota’s example of the platinum industry in South Africa was about a tribe called the Bafokeng, who are building, not a stadium, but an Olympiad.


Major Chizhyuka: An Olympiad houses all sorts of sporting facilities that one can think of. Due to the capacity of this facility which has been built by one tribe, and not the whole country, its stadium has been approved for the 2010 World Cup. It is surprising, Madam Speaker, how hon. Members, on your right, can even call themselves hon. Ministers of this and that or hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources …


Major Chizhyuka: … but unable …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member might provoke the other side to start heckling. The hon. Member must choose to take on straightforward manner of debate. Do not attract heckling to yourself.

You may continue, please. However, address them through the Chair.

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. This debate is profound and very close to my heart. I wish I new that this debate was coming in this manner. I would have done deeper preparation for it. However, I am saying this because by a mere 22.6 per cent participation in the second largest platinum mine in the world, a tribe in South Africa is able to do the things like tarring of roads which are the responsibility of hon. Ministers like Hon. Mulongoti here. They are able to do things on their own without Government support. They are able to build hospitals …

Mr Kaingu: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised. Is it on procedure?

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, it is in reference to what the hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala is saying. Is the hon. Member in order to propound in this House when he knows very well that …

Mr Syakalima: What is he propounding?

Mr Kaingu: Whatever he is propounding here.


Mr Kaingu: … that himself, myself and others are in the committee on land and environment at the National Constitution Conference (NCC) and we have delved and discussed the matter concerning land. We have decided that land will be used as equity as far as participation in projects is concerned.

Mr Syakalima: What is your point of order?


Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, knowing that this Government and him have recommended to the NCC for local citizens to use land as collateral so that they can be empowered, is he in order to be debating in the manner he is doing? I need your serious ruling.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! The very serious ruling is that, to start with, the hon. Minister wants to debate and he will have his time to do so. Secondly, I think that whatever the NCC may have debated in its committees, according the NCC Act, is still very private until brought to Parliament. Therefore, this House is not aware of what the hon. Minister has brought to the Floor.

The hon. Member may continue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, I am very grateful for that guidance. There is a game called the merry-go-round. In China, there are Chinese merry-go-rounds. Somewhere in the middle of a Chinese merry-go-round is a dragon. At some point, people get swallowed by the dragon and by the time they are exiting, I do not want to use a word which is unparliamentary, they actually land where they came from. This is the problem with this Government, especially with points of order like that.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member is not the Chair and if, at all, that remark on merry-go-rounds was on the point of order, the hon. Member must withdraw it because the Chair made the ruling on the point of order. Withdraw the whole remark on merry-go-rounds.


Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, the remark on merry-go-rounds is withdrawn. The point is that we are talking about empowering our citizens so that they can move out of the cycle of poverty, which is the core problem. Do we think that we can empower our citizens, even as we are in Government, by restricting ourselves …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}


Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, I thought that it should be registered, also, in my debate and I repeat just to buttress the point and get it home that the majority of our people are encompassed in the definition that was read by the mover of the Motion, Hon. Sakwiba Sikota. ‘Targeted citizen’ means a citizen who is or has been marginalised. Think of our people in our constituencies at home or the disadvantaged people whose access to economic resources and development capacity has been constrained due to various factors, including race, sex, educational background, status and disability.

A definition like that, immediately, tells you that the people that brought you to Parliament, by far or, maybe, 90 per cent of them, fall in this definition.

The reason I agree so much with the mover of this Motion is that if we took the approach of thought to create a paradigm shift and started thinking the way Hon. Sakwiba Sikota has presented this Motion, it would mean that because of their equity participation in the mine in Chienge, the parents of Hon. Katele Kalumba, his family and extended family will continue to benefit by that 15 or 20 per cent participation for the next 100 years that the mine will be in operation. It means you have created wealth in Chienge for the down trodden and targeted citizens as defined.

Madam Speaker, you can replicate this example to whatever tribe you belong to and wherever you are on this land of Zambia. The situation is exactly the same. The question that is always asked is, why we, Zambians, cannot believe in ourselves and why have we lost the confidence to believe that we can make it? The other day, I was asking the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning why it always makes sense for the Government to ask  foreigners to come and dance on our land, make money and fly away leaving the country poorer than they found it.

You are creating multi-facility economic zones (MFEZs) now and you think that by doing so, Zambians are going to become rich. What rich? The ones who own the mines are foreigners and they will be the operators of the MFEZs. They own the manufacturing capacity and hotels and they will be the operators in the MFEZs while you are going to remain just workers, maybe, to use the old phrase ‘hewers of wood.’ Let us start to believe in ourselves as Zambians. The onus is on this Government to understand that we must create a broad-based capacity as stated in the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission so that instead of allowing management to be the ones to participate in the running of operations, for example, in farms like the Nanga Farms, let us allow workers to participate. When you deal with the workers, then you are talking about broad-based participation.

Take for instance, the construction of roads. A lot of money goes into road construction. If we had a paradigm thought process from this Government, the K167 billion would be given to the Chinese to work on the Choma/Namwala Road, while the responsibility to collect stones would be given to indigenous Zambians. By pro-activity, this Government would ensure that the groups of young youths, whether in Chienge, Chipata or wherever, would come up with an arrangement where the Government would provide these groups of youths with tippers and crushers. The task of these broad-based groups of youths would be to provide stones so that the indigenous Zambians that Hon. Sakwiba Sikota is talking about start participating in the use of this K167 billion instead of allowing it to be used by the Chinese only.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Who tells you that our youths cannot extract stones from the Zambian land if you gave them crushers and tippers?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: When that contract is over, those Zambian youths would have raised, maybe, K2 billion to K3 billion to their credit. By so doing, they can buy their tippers and crushers and employ other youths and then bid for a project in, for example, Kasama. That way, the Government would have been broad-based and it would have created wealth for those youths whom, in turn, will be empowered to employ other youths in the country. As a hon. Government minister, start looking at this as a process by which you can empower your people and not flying in first class to China, all the time, with a begging bowl asking the Chinese to come to Zambia to construct stadiums. Since you have insufficient funds, you end up using the same plan for all stadiums to be constructed in places such as Livingstone. At the end of it all, all stadiums in the country will be Chinese with the same plan and appearance.

You have to start thinking that this is our country. Hon. Namulambe, this is our country, therefore, we have to think of the possibilities of getting wealth.

When I was young, I used to read the World West Novels so let me tell you what investors are all about all over the world. In these novels, where there was gold, investors always reached and thought out a plan of exploitation. Therefore, where there is uranium or copper, an investor will always come. Thus, the onus is on you, the Government, to craft the exploitation of natural resources in such a manner that it benefits the investor, but above all, that it benefits you, your family at home and the Government of the Republic of Zambia. It is possible to do that, if you start believing in yourself.

Our forefathers fought for the independence of this country, Hon. Daniel Munkombwe, seated there, used to go to Congo to see Moise Tshombe to get resources in trying to get independence for our country. They had an onerous responsibility, but they did their job well. It is possible for you colleagues to sit there as hon. Cabinet ministers because those men died a little for the sake of this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Major Chizhyuka: This stage we have reached, hon. Ministers and the Government at large is a stage for creating wealth for your people so that they leave a better life …

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … and find it pleasing to be Zambian. This is why you heard me saying that I was so happy to hear Hon. Sakwiba Sikota talking so profoundly about indigenous citizens. Let us put this as our theme, maybe, in a small way, we shall start getting people like Hon. Shikapwasha to understand that, after all, this country belongs not to the Chinese, but the indigenous Zambians.

Madam, I want to support this Motion and say that I am exceedingly grateful to Hon. Sikota not only for bringing the Motion to House, but also for presenting it in such a presidential manner. I am beginning to think that there is hope when hon. Members like Hon. Sikota can think through processes and thoughts such as this one for the future of our country.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order! I would urge those that would like to speak that if you all want to speak, you must use time very effectively and, indeed, economically so that others can have an opportunity to contribute.

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Kaingu): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Sikota for bringing this Motion to the House.

Madam Speaker, the First, Second and Third republics have come up with programmes to try and empower  the Zambians. Actually, Hon. Sikota alluded to this issue. Why have the Zambians failed to buy into the programmes which the Government has brought to its people?  For me, I strongly believe that Zambians have failed to help themselves using the money that has been provided by the Government. For example, we have the Citizens CEEC.

I was the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources at one time and there was a credit fund which Zambians borrowed. Now, I think, that Zambians have a problem and the biggest problem is that most of them have no business acumen like the last speaker said.


Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, factors of production is not cash. It is capital, land, entrepreneurship and technology. It is not necessary for the Government to provide these factors of production for its people. In fact, the Government receives from its people through taxes. For example, the people of Namwala have been rearing cattle for a long time, but they have failed to become rich because of lack of business acumen and leadership.


Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, these programmes Hon. Sikota talked about have been discussed in various fora. One of them is the one we are deliberating on, but we have discussed in many fora concerning empowering the people using land.  Land can be used as equity. I have always said that factors of production include land.

The Government and a few colleagues, on the other side, in this forum are seriously discussing how land should be used as collateral. I understand and accept what Hon. Sikota said, but, I think, generally, it is the people themselves who have failed to actualise the programmes which the Government has put in place. They have borrowed the money, but they have failed to use it for the purpose it was intended for. Some people have borrowed money and instead of using it to build lodges, they have ended up…

Hon. Government Members: Marrying and eating.

Mr Kaingu: It is not me who has said it, Madam Speaker.


Mr Kaingu: However, that could be true.


Mr Kaingu: I want the Zambians to realise that they should not on rely on the programmes which the Government brings about to empower them to be entrepreneurs, but, as individuals, they should to go to school and learn how to run businesses. Most people want to engage in businesses because their colleagues are doing it. If, for example, Hon. Hamududu starts running a Kantemba or selling cattle, someone else will be borrow to, also, start doing the same. No, business is much more than that. One must know his or her human resource, marketing and financial status. However, Zambians want to simply borrow money and before they can even put it to good use …

Mr Hachipuka: On a point of order, Madam.


Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to add a few remarks to the wisdom of Hon. Sikota. I want to adopt Hon. Chizhyuka’s debate as mine.

Madam Speaker, according to my research, the major constraints Zambians are facing in entrepreneur development are the result of the curriculum in our schools. I think there is need for the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training to redesign the curriculum. You, Madam Speaker, are coming from the teaching fraternity. You are aware that…


Hon. Government Members: Order!

Mr Chimbaka: The curriculum has been designed to suit the English fashion of Zambians being clerks, police officers, soldiers, office orderlies and drivers unlike that of the Democratic Republic of Congo where skills for survival are embedded in the curriculum such that whenever someone is graduating, even, at Grade 4, he or she would have acquired a survival skill to utilise in their life.

Hon. PF Member: You are right.

Mr Chimbaka: Madam Speaker, I am one of those who attended the Zambia National Service training and I experienced a lot of things. Unlike what my elder brother has said, the Zambian women and youths are ready to go into entrepreneur undertakings, but there are a lot of problems. Firstly, because they have never been exposed to the project proposal writing, they have literally failed to access money. I hope the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development can bear me witness. I organised a workshop where I invited agricultural officers, community development officers and the Ministry of Education officers to the forum for them to buy into what the CEEC was doing to allow the people in Bahati and Mansa, in general, to do what they do with ease. 
Further, I provided fuel for all the heads of department to go and assist people to come up with project proposals. Madam Speaker, I was told by CEEC personnel that the people in my province did not know how to write project proposals and, as a result, could not access the money. I then asked for the way forward. I believe it was on the Floor of this House where it was announced by the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry that very few people in Luapula Province accessed this loan because they were inadequately trained to do this. That is why I said that the way forward was for the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development to advise their personnel to play a keener role. For example, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services should be able to interact with the women’s clubs and assist them come up with project proposals which the CEEC can consider for funding.

Therefore, it is not that Zambians do not want that and neither is it out of ignorance, but it is the way their father, which is the Government, is addressing issues of poverty in this country. The example that Hon. Chizhyuka alluded to is quite clear. What stops the Government from going to Mulobezi where the people have been dealing in timber? That has been their economic activity. Provide them with electric saws and what is necessary. Surely, do we need the Chinese to go to Mulobezi to cut timber and transport it to Lusaka for export? No. I think we need to change our mindset both as citizens and as a Government. The role of the Government should be to understand and appreciate the circumstances of those they lead and then fill up the gaps so that people can access this money. If we did that, as a Government, the politicking which is going on in the country would not be there because people would appreciate the Government.

Therefore, with these few words, I would like to urge the Government to move in at Government level, through the formulation of policies, and gazette the codes based on each ministry so that our people who are virtually ready, today, should begin to buy-in. That way, we shall appreciate governance and it shall be easy for the Government to campaign because it would have driven home.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Speaker, I promise to spend a very short time on this very important topic.

Madam, it is very clear that the mover of the Motion, Hon. Sakwiba Sikota, is coming from a particular philosophical position. This is a position of neo-liberal thinking.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: In his neo-liberal thinking, he is very passionate about issues of equity in any policy and that is very important.

The examples he has cited of South Africa are deeply rooted in a philosophical thinking of equity dimensions in national policy formulation. This is exactly what this Government has been doing for a long time.


Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, this Government’s policy context is clearly rooted in equity considerations. We have, as a Government, taken into account matters of horizontal, generational and vertical equity as we try to address the problems of poverty in our country.

As a result of this Government’s deep concern for the equitable distribution of wealth and the need for the greater majority of our people to participate in wealth creation or the control of the economy, we have very good examples of how the citizenry, in general, is participating in wealth creation and management and development of the economy.

Madam in the tourism sector, we have a number of Zambians who are participating and establishing lodges all over the country. These are very clear examples of Zambians coming forward to respond to their Government’s call for them to participate in the tourism sector.

Madam Speaker, the transport sector has a number of Zambians who are participating in areas like running trucks, mini-buses and buses. At the moment, we have very good luxurious buses not only moving from one provincial headquarters to another, but also taking on regional routes to Botswana, South Africa and even East Africa. This is a clear example of Zambians coming forward and responding to the Government’s call for them to participate in the transport sector. In the airline sector, we have the Zambezi Airline, at the moment, in which Zambians have come together and are participating in the skies of Southern Africa.

Madam, areas like the health sector have not been left out. Many Zambians have come forward to establish private clinics and hospitals in which Zambians are treated. Many Zambians have also come forward to establish private schools and universities which are running to respond to the needs of the country.

Madam Speaker, there is also the farming blocks which have been created by the Government in which Zambians are participating in the agricultural sector. The infrastructure and construction sector have not been left out. Many Zambians have formed companies to participate in the building of their country.

Madam, all these are just many examples in which the citizenry, in general, has come forward to respond to the call for equitable participation in the development of the country and generation of wealth for the good of the country to alleviate poverty. This is in response to the general vision of this country which is deeply anchored on matters of equity, social justice and fair distribution of wealth as we try to exploit the abundant resources of this country for the good of our people in order to improve the quality of lives in all areas of our lives in the villages and urban areas.

Madam Speaker, with these few comments, I would like to say thank you for the opportunity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very good Motion that has been moved by my brother, Hon. Sakwiba Sikota, which is long overdue.

Madam Speaker, let us understand from the outset that the modern state of Zambia was created by the colonialists not for the purpose of empowering the indigenous people. We must understand that. Unfortunately, successive administrations have continued to disempower the indigenous people.

Madam, I will give you examples. From 1932 when the first copper was mined at Luanshya, to date, a total of 75 million tonnes of copper has been taken out of this country. A total of 5 million tonnes of finished cobalt has also been taken out of this country.

Madam Speaker, if you use the present value, copper now is about US$5,000 per tonne. It means that at present value, a total of US$3.75 trillion has been taken out of this country.

    At a total average cobalt price of US$50,000 per tonne, a total of US$250 billion has been taken out of this country, and yet, we, as a country, have nothing to show for this immense wealth that God put in our soils. If you go to Dubai, Abudabi and Saudi Arabia in the Middle East, which were once deserts, today, you will find modern towns with skyscrapers. The reason for this is that they were able to use the resources that God gave them for the development of their countries and the empowerment of their citizens. We, as a nation, need to recognise that and say that it is not too late.

Madam Speaker, following in the steps of previous administrations, the current administration has continued on the path of disempowerment of the indigenous people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, I will go by way of points so that I am brief.

Let us look at Copperbelt Province. The discontinuation of skills training programmes such as the Artisan Training Programme, which was put in place by previous administrations, has disempowered our youths, who were able to get world class skills as electricians, fitters, mechanics and plumbers. That is no longer available.

Madam, secondly, we have allowed mining companies to bring in ill-qualified expatriate staff. Every expatriate staff you bring in disempowers one Zambian who would otherwise do that job.

Madam Speaker, we have also allowed preferred contracting companies to come in with the new mining companies. Every one of those contracting companies that you have brought in has disempowered a Zambian contracting company and the workers that work for that company.

Madam, the removal of windfall tax from the mining taxation regime has not only disempowered Zambians at an individual basis, but also us, as a State.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: The resources that are taken elsewhere are developing and empowering the citizens of those lands.

The repeal of the Industrial Minerals Act, which was very specific and sought to empower Zambian companies and Zambian influenced companies, has disempowered Zambians.

 Madam, allowing banks to continue to charge high interest rates on borrowing and pay low interest rates on savings …

Mr Sing’ombe: Bulela!

Mr Milupi: … continues to disempower the indigenous people in Zambia while empowering the people in the foreign lands where these banks take this money.

Madam Speaker, the poorly managed Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP), which is targeted towards the poorest of the poor, peasant farmers and small-scale farmers, serves to disempower the people that we seek to empower.

Announcing producer prices for our agricultural producers, when they have already suffered the cost of inputs and so on, serves to disempower them and, as a result, no Zambian indigenous person, …

Mr Sing’ombe: Mu utwile mina!

Mr Milupi: … shall be rich from engaging themselves in agriculture, especially at the small-scale level.

Madam, the poor state of the infrastructure in rural areas where the poorest of the poor are continues to disempower our people.

Mr Sing’ombe: Apu!

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, the no market arrangement for agricultural products where a farmer has to grow a crop and look for a market serves to disempower our people.

Madam Speaker, when I was young, I benefited from my parents selling one animal in order to pay my boarding fees for the whole year. Allowing cattle diseases in areas where they keep cattle to decimate the cattle population has served to disempower people that previously were able to look after themselves.

Mr Sing’ombe: Manyando feela!

Mr Milupi: The dying development of the livestock industry continues to disempower our people. The marketing of cattle in the rural areas at lower prices than they fetch in urban areas is a serious programme of disempowering our people.

Madam Speaker, selling fuel in Kaputa, Kalabo and other far-flung areas where people have less resources at higher prices than in places where they can afford to buy it serves to disempower our people.

 Yesterday, we talked about the emerald industry. Allowing money from the emerald industry not to benefit this economy in the manner that we were told yesterday and today by the hon. Minister serves to disempower our people.

Allowing money to go out of the country through concessions given to foreign owned companies operating in Zambia like Shoprite, in the manner that our administration has allowed, serves to disempower the local people.
Madam, poor education standards, where people leave the education system with very poor educational standards serves to disempower our people. It is said that when you educate a person, you empower them for life.

Even simple matters like having no national registration cards (NRCs) in a country where you know you cannot do anything without an NRC, including voting, serves to disempower our people.

Madam, foreign banks and companies banking their sales revenue, not just dividends or profits, but sales revenue in foreign countries where that money can then be borrowed by the people there and where our local people have no access to it serves to disempower our people.

 Continuing to allow the gross abuse of public resources which we can see…

Mr Mwangala: Kize ng’ata!

Mr Milupi: …serves to disempower our people.

Above all, facilitating the take over of this country by foreigners, through the acquisition of land, mineral exploitation rights and oil exploration rights serves to disempower our people.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mubika Mubika!

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, finally, the establishment of multi-facility economic zones (MFEZs) in areas that will only benefit foreigners and in none of the areas where the poor people are serves to disempower our people.

Madam Speaker, through this Motion, I will join the mover of this Motion to urge this administration that the time has come to put in measures that will empower our people. That is why they put you in power.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to debate this Motion and thereby the opportunity to correct the wrong views in some of the statements that I have heard this evening.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I want to start by congratulating the mover of the Motion, regarding the issue of empowerment.  As it goes, I think it is a legitimate concern. Our people need to be empowered because this is what the Government is there for. Therefore, I congratulate him for this.

Madam, if you look at our history, various administrations have done exactly that. The Credit Organisation of Zambia in the 1960s, the Lima Banks of this world and the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) are all meant to empower our people. I, therefore, agree with the hon. Member on this issue.

Madam Speaker, I do however disagree with the tendency in this debate to create the impression that Zambians are poor because of foreigners. I strongly disagree with some debaters. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, a number of times people have given examples in this House of successful economies. The last time we debated this Motion was around January or February, and people gave examples of Mauritius and Malaysia. Immediately after that sitting, we had the Indaba Conference. In that conference, we had one speaker from Malaysia and one from Mauritius. The interesting point is that the path to success for these countries is totally the opposite of what I am hearing this evening.


Dr Musokotwane: Some time back, I did mention in this House that many of us travel and have opportunities to open our eyes and see what goes on in other countries, but we do not do that. What I am hearing today is an indication of that problem, which makes me very sad.

Madam Speaker, the way I see it, the problem is that many of us adopt elitist attitudes. We are elitist in our thinking and drink our tea and wine. When a fly drops into that glass of wine costing K10,000, we throw it away instead of putting a finger in the glass and taking out the fly.


Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, people are prepared to do this because they are elitist.  The point is that because they are elitist, they do not want to recognise one of the most important forms of empowering people which has worked over centuries in other countries. I am talking about employment.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: They are elitist because they want to see themselves as business people. For them, the fact that in the streets of Lusaka thousands of people would appreciate the K10,000 they used to buy the glass of wine which they threw away, does not matter.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: The fact that you are business people, your concern is what kind of cuts you can make. For us, as a Government, our concern is what kind of job opportunities can be created for our people.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the people on your left side are elitist. They do not care about the poor people looking for jobs.

Mr Mukanga: Who are they?

Dr Musokotwane: Yourselves!


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister may have to speak through the Chair otherwise he risks having a conversation with hon. Members of the House. Speak through the Chair.

You may continue.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, what I am driving at is that rather than us complaining all the time about the Chinese, Indians and Rwandese, we must recognise the basic problem that is there, which is that there are insufficient jobs in the country. Our most important task is to create jobs. When poor people are lining the streets of Lusaka looking for jobs in desperation, not knowing where the next meal will come from, they do not ask whether the job will come from the Chinese, from someone from the Southern Province or from someone from Chipata. The most important thing for them is whether the job is available or not.

Madam Speaker, as Government, we give opportunities to all entrepreneurs. If they are Zambians, we are even happier to help. However, if the Zambians are not willing to come forward, we cannot say no if the Chinese want to open a factory because hundreds of people will be denied job opportunities.

Madam Speaker, someone suggested that we take a look at Dubai. This brings me to an earlier point I mentioned. Are we really opening our eyes and ears? By the way, Dubai has no oil. Most of those glamorous buildings you see in Dubai were built with foreign capital. We are very happy to go to Dubai and do our shopping, but we do not want to ask questions.

Madam Speaker, I was privileged to sit with some government officials and rulers in Dubai. I asked them what had transformed the desert and they said it was foreign capital. Why are you refusing it? What is your interest?


Hon. Member: Continue with that one.


Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, hon. Members are saying that when we open up to foreign investment, the local people get displaced. Are you aware that the local population in Dubai has been overtaken by the expatriate population? In other words, the local people are actually fewer than the foreigners. Are you not aware of this?

Madam Speaker, are they not aware of this?


Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in the process of allowing this capital to come into Dubai, so much of the wealth that we admire has come up. The local people are not willing to do many of the jobs in Dubai because there are too many jobs available. This is why so many people from Asia go to Dubai because of the many jobs that have been created by foreign capital. Are you not aware of these things?

Madam Speaker, a few weeks ago, some colleagues travelled to China, which has become one of the most industrialised countries in the world.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Dr Musokotwane: The history of the industrialisation of China is unprecedented. In a matter of thirty or forty years, they have become the third biggest economy in the world, something that has taken other powers 300 years. Time and again, the Chinese tell us that their success came as a result of the policy of opening up to foreign investment.

Madam Speaker, why does this country want to deny itself the opportunity to emulate the success stories? Why do you want to karma for the failures?

Madam Speaker, in my conclusion, I would like to state that I know that what is being said here sounds very popular and nationalistic. Unfortunately, it is the exact opposite of the reality of what has made countries successful. I want to urge my colleagues on your left side to spend a little bit of time looking at magazines.

Hon. MMD Member: And thinking.

Dr Musokotwane:  I would like to appeal to you to ask questions as you travel. Find out what transformed those countries. You should discard these archaic ideas that you have about development.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.


 Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! We will give a few minutes to the hon. Member for Kabwata to also contribute. Twenty minutes may not be allowed.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, first of all, let me salute Hon. Sikota for moving this timely motion. I also want to salute Hon. Major Chizhyuka for his contribution.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, the philosophical issues around this matter should awaken all of us to the fact that the Government is quickly moving this country towards the right at a very high rate. Therefore, whoever thinks that this motion is neo-liberalist is missing the point because this motion is all about trying to urge this Government to move a little bit to the left to become less neo-liberal. That is the essence of this motion.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Lubinda: That is if they are understand what I am talking about.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Lubinda: Madam, some have said that empowerment programmes…

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a very serious point of order on the insinuation that the hon. contributor, hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata is raising.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member for Kabwata in order to insinuate that the people on your right do not understand the underlining philosophical thinking behind this motion when the people on your right have read widely, including on contemporary thinking as written in books such as a classic called “The Theory of Justice” by John Rawls…

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa:…which the hon. Member  from Kabwata Constituency may never have seen.


Professor Lungwangwa: Is he right to insinuate that hon. Members on your right have no understanding on issues regarding the Motion. Is he in order to bring up such an insinuation? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The very serious ruling is that the Chair is very confident that hon. Members on both sides of the House do understand the issues that are being debated. Therefore, the hon. Member on the Floor may not question the understanding of either side of the House. The purpose of the debates in this House is to communicate. If the hon. Member believes that they will not understand the language he is using, let him use that which befits this House which hon. Member will understand because there is no need to speak in a manner that others will not understand. The purpose is to communicate your point across. As far as that is concerned, he is out of order.

He may continue.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, some have argued that the reasons why the numerous empowerment programmes have failed in Zambia is because the citizens themselves have failed the programmes. While that might be true for some classes of citizens, surely, it is not, entirely, true for all citizens. I will come to this point later.

Madam Speaker, what ought to be understood is that is that if you want to take the people towards a destination, it ought to be towards the vision that attracts their beliefs in which people can see themselves and their aspirations. That vision must be presented to the people in such a compelling way that they are willing to follow it. That vision must be implemented consistently so that the people see the value of implementing that particular vision or strategy.

Madam Speaker, What do I mean by this? What I mean is that various governments have come up with programmes, but before the people get the hung of those programmes, there abandoned. Before the people can even understand the purpose of the programmes, there thrown out. How then, will you blame the people for not following the programmes? If there is anyone to blame, it is the one who is supposed to be implementing and creating awareness around those programmes. In this case who is it?  Please, do not blame the people out there. Do not blame the very people who are meant to be empowered by these programmes. You should blame those who have the power to implement and the ones who have the power to discontinue the implementation of such programmes.

 Madam Speaker, this country has had several programmes. Like I said, how consistent have we been in implementing them? Let us look at the Women Empowerment Fund (WEF). It is referred to as an empowerment fund. Before our women folk could know that this Parliament was appropriating money to them through WEF, like that game children play, we decided to abandon it. We also had youth funds. Before, the youth even got to understand that there was money that they could access to empower themselves, form clubs, start block making companies, rearing goats and pigs ,  even before they new that their hon. Member of Parliament had access to that money, we gathered in this House again and decided end it like that game that children play. I will not name it. It is like that game in which you throw something and it comes back to you. No matter how far you throw it, it still comes back to you. Again, we decided to abandon the Youth Empowerment Fund. Are we really going to blame the youth for not having participated in that fund? No! We should blame ourselves and those who make such decisions.

Madam Speaker, there is another one. I am sure that when many hon. Members in this House went to school, they used to have a very important empowerment programme in their schools, the young framers’ club.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: What happened to the young farmers’ club? Who abandoned it? Please do not blame the children in schools for abandoning the young farmers’ concept. It was abandoned by the people sitting on the right of this House. It is not the people on the left or the children out there or the people who have told us what kind of books and theories they have read. It is not those people out there, but the people in this House.

Madam Speaker, another programme is the Cultural Policy. I have debated the Cultural Policy on the floor of this House. To date, the Government has not implemented the Cultural Policy. Yet, that is a very important instrument for empowering artists in this country. Surely, you can import people to come and build your stadium, but you will not import people to come and recite those beautiful Mwansabombwe songs. You will not import people to come do Kuyabila. That has to be done by the local people. Therefore, the Cultural Policy was meant for that purpose. Yet, twelve years after that policy was adopted by this very Government, nothing has been done to implement it. Will you today, stand and blame the artists for not empowering themselves when the environment is not conducive enough? Do not blame them, but yourselves.

Madam Speaker, a lot has been said about foreign countries, but I will come to them, later. What about the contracting process in Zambia. My hon. Colleagues have spoken about this. Therefore, I want to say that what is very clear is that…


Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, if people want to go home, they are free to do so, but they should not disturb me.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Debate through the Chair.


Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I want to say that the contracting purpose in his country indicates only one thing, the level of lack of confidence that this Government has in the Zambian People.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: A case I have in mind is on the evaluation of assets of one important parastatal company. There are many qualified Zambians who can evaluate property. However, through single-sourcing, we decided to go outside the borders of Zambia and paid as much as US $2 million to R P Capital.

Major Chizhyuka: An agent!

Mr Lubinda: That money could have been paid to a Zambian consultant. We could have empowered a Zambian company to evaluate the assets of Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL). Are you surely going to blame the consulting firms in Zambia for not getting that bid which you did not allow them to participate in? Do not blame them, please. Blame yourselves! Let us have a feeling in ourselves that when things go wrong, we should not turn our backs to the voiceless. They have no role whatsoever in empowering themselves, but it is the duty of Government.

I would like to agree to what the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport said that the duty of the Government is to empower the people. It is not their responsibility to empower themselves.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: That is the reason they vote for a government every five years. The people think that when they vote for that government, it will take care of their plight and quest for empowerment. Therefore, we should not blame them at all for not getting that empowerment.

Madam, can you imagine that building a two-roomed small hostel at Mansa Lodge was given to a Chinese firm? Would you say that you are empowering citizens?

Mr Syakalima: No!

Mr Lubinda: Who are the people building that hostel if you go there? The artisans there who are lifting the blocks and mixing concrete are the Zambians. Can you compare how much that Chinese man who sits on a wheel barrow dozing half the day, like I found one two weeks ago, gets to what goes in the pockets of the Zambians?

Major Chizhyuka: It started with the Minister of Finance and National Planning. 
Mr Lubinda: Will you call that empowerment? The mere fact that some foreign company has come and created jobs, will you call that empowerment?

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: That is not empowerment. When we talk about empowering, we are talking about making it possible for the indigenous people to also employ and not only to be employed.


Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, one of my colleagues talked about the amendment Bills. This shows that this Government has no respect, whatsoever, for the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act of 2006.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: What do I mean? Let me illustrate this by saying that, last year, when this Government came to this House and decided to amend the Mines and Minerals Development Act, to take away that provision in the law for citizens-influenced, citizens-empowered, citizens-owned companies to be engaged in industrial mining, that very day, they buried the spirit of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: That law did not say that foreigners are not able to come and invest in industrial minerals. What the law says is that anyone is free for as long as they come and partner with Zambians. The fact that Zambians do not have money does not mean that they do not have collateral. Like somebody said, ownership of land, in itself, is sufficient collateral. Therefore, foreigners who come with their money must come and partner with the Zambians who own land. However, this Government is walking away from the spirit of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act.

Madam, I have just talked about the issue of land. However, this Government is aware that because of their very skewed land allocation process, the majority of Zambians do not have title to land. That is the reason why, in the recent past, we have heard of Zambians who deserve to be empowered by this Government being displaced in the interest of foreigners. Sichifulo is a question at hand. The people who deserved to be empowered by agricultural support were displaced from their own land for whose sake?

Major Chizhyuka: My mother!

Mr Lubinda: They were displaced because some foreigners had to go there for the sake of creating employment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Do the people of Sichifulo want employment? The people of Sichifulo want land and empowerment programmes for them to produce maize and employ themselves.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: They want land for them to rear goats and cattle and not to be employees. This Government, in its very strange way of thinking, brought in a foreigner and said, “All of you abandon your fields and come and work here. Come and labour.” Is that what you call empowering? Obviously not!

Madam Speaker, look at the issue of Baobab Land. Lusaka City Council demarcated that land to empower citizens. What did we do to that land? We grabbed it from the citizens and gave it to one company. Are we empowering citizens? Now, that same company is asking for much more than what Lusaka City Council was asking for a plot on that same piece of land. Who have we empowered then? Can this Government ever claim that it has any serious programmes to empower Zambians?

Mr Syakalima: No!

Mr Lubinda: The answer is an emphatic no.

Madam, one of my colleagues spoke about Multi-Facility Economic Zones (MFEZs). Let me state that nobody is against foreign investment but what the Zambians are against is this bias against them by their Government in their own country. If there is bias against Zambians in Zambia, for goodness’s sake, where will they receive any favour? They will not go to Malaysia and be treated favourably in Malaysia. If they are denied their birth right in their country, then you have damned them to disempowerment and to their early graves. Who is responsible? It is the Government that is disempowering them.

Madam Speaker, how do you expect this country …

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata in order to blatantly ignore the glaring example of a project to empower indigenous Zambians, which he has heard about, which, only yesterday, was implemented by this Government to a tune of US $5.9 million in Manyonyo and Nega Nega? Over 500 hectares of land has been allocated to the people so that they can gain income to reduce poverty. Is he in order to ignore such an excellent example which the region wants to come and see as a model of empowering our indigenous Zambians? Is he in order?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: I think that point of order is offering information. The hon. Member may use that as one example of empowerment.

You may continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, reference has been made to Dubai but, again, I would like to appeal to us that when we make references like that, we must make full disclosure of information. I agree with the hon. Minister who said that when we travel, we must ask and read widely. There are many people in this House who read very extensively.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The hon. Minister said things correctly and very well. However, I wonder why he did not want to mention to us the fact that even before foreign direct investment started to trickle into Dubai, the per capita income of the people in Dubai could not, in any way, be compared to a poor country like Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Why did he not mention to us that even before foreign direct investment started to flow into Dubai, there were no local Dubai citizens who were in employment because all of them were employers? Why did he not disclose that? Why does he not want to tell us …

Hon. Government Member: You cannot narrate everything!


Mr Lubinda: … that in Dubai …

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … for every company that goes to invest there, the law requires that there must be participation of the locals? Why did he not talk about that?

This is what people are saying they want. Copy what is happening in Dubai. We want that model because it includes empowering the citizens. It does not mean taking away the gold from the people and giving it to foreigners.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Nobody in this House has spoken against foreign investment. Please, hear us right. We are not xenophobic at all but the only thing we are is nationalistic and …

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … and patriotic. We want to ensure that that every dollar that the foreigner brings to Zambia adds value to the lives of Zambians and not impoverish them.

Madam Speaker, I am aware of the issue of the K5.9 billion at Manyonyo but did I not start by saying that many programmes to empower citizens have come and gone and left the Zambians poorer than they were when the programmes came? So, even this programme under this Government which acts like that game I was talking about, very soon, will abandon this project even before it materialises and before we take over Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulyata: You will remain in Opposition forever.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker that is the reason Hon. Sikota has said, please, may you now be serious about implementing the concept of citizen’s economic empowerment. The Citizens Economic Empowerment Act is not only about the establishment of the fund but the concept includes much more than just a fund. After all, we were told only two weeks ago that the most impoverished people in this country are women and yet this Government told us that their target is only forty-eight women’s group.

Mr Mbulakulima: Do you have a woman, you?

Hon. Member: Zero!


Mr Lubinda: If you are only going to have forty-eight women’s groups to benefit from the fund, will you say that the fund qualifies to be considered an empowerment fund?


Mr Lubinda: The question is: how many hon. Members gathered in this august House have already benefited from the fund even before the first women’s group got any money? That is a fund that is empowering people here and not the people out there and that is the cry of the people on your left.

Mr Mbulakulima: Iwe ulandafye but do nothing for the people.

Mr Lubinda: Can this Government, please, for once become responsive to the plight of the people, especially for hon. Ministers like Mwansa Mbulakulima who has a lot of poor people on the Copperbelt? Can he wake up and empower the people there, instead of debating from the seat because he cannot face me.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Livingstone (Mr Sikota) for bringing this Motion.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member urges the Government to urgently develop and gazette the citizen’s economic empowerment sector codes. I wish to give an update on the Adjournment Motion raised by the hon. Member.

Madam Speaker, sector codes as we have heard are specific targets that outline plans to achieve broad based economic empowerment in Zambia. Actors in the sector are expected to voluntarily participate in the economic empowerment of targeted citizens by providing opportunities, resources and strengthen the involvement of targeted citizens in ownership, management and control of national assets. These codes should be able to state and define rights and responsibilities as well as the principals and rules of conducting business by enterprises, employees and service providers and foster a conducive, stable environment that strengthens ethical values and the image of the economic sectors including services and professionalism of its employees and members.

Madam Speaker, in September 2007, the CEEC started developing the guidelines for developing sector codes. In December, 2007, the process of developing sector code guidelines was completed. In February, 2008, the guidelines were launched. There are eleven sectors identified under the Fifth National Development Plan and each of these sectors needs to develop a sector code.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: The following are the sectors:

Agriculture Zambia National Farmers Union
Information & Com. Technology E-Brain Forum
Financial Services Bankers Association of Zambia
Tourism Tourism council of Zambia
Construction National Council for construction
Mining Chambers of Mines
Manufacturing Zambia Association of Manufacturers
Transport No consensus has been reached
Retail and Trade Zambia Chamber of Small and Medium Business Association (ZCSMBA)
Energy Zambia Chamber of Commerce and Industry
Services No consensus has been reached.

Madam Speaker, in May 2008, the CEEC organised a consultative workshop where the eleven sector leaders discussed the guidelines on the preparation of the sector codes. At this meeting a document titled guidelines to developing economic empowerment sector codes was issued to all sector leaders. Subsequently, between September, 2008 and March 2009, three workshops were held at the Southern Sun, Mika Lodge and Mulungushi International Conference Centre, respectively, to discuss the sector codes.

Madam Speaker, the response to the development of these sector codes has been mixed, resulting in only one sector having developed and finalised a draft sector code. This is the agriculture sector and the lead agent is the Zambia National Farmers Union (ZNFU). The agricultural sector through the ZNFU engaged a consultant using funds from the private sector development and was able to quickly conclude their draft sector code. The draft sector code for the agricultural sector was completed in June, 2009. The ZNFU has shown an exemplary leadership role and the draft sector code will soon be subjected to validation by all the key stakeholders.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: Madam Speaker, as regards the other sectors, such as information communication and technology (ICT), financial services, forestry, manufacturing, construction and others, these are engaged in extensive consultative processes with the CEEC to find a quick solution to the development of sector codes in each of their sectors. We hope that by October, 2009, a consensus will have been achieved by the above sectors.

The process of consultations has been long and often difficult due to sector leadership problems. Apart from internal wrangling within sectors, the other biggest hurdle has been lack of capacity within and among the sectors in formulating these sector codes. The various sectors have been approaching CEEC for funding to engage consultants.

Madam Speaker, the CEEC, therefore, in an effort to accelerate the development of the sector codes has developed a working relationship with the South African Broad Based Black Economic Empowerment Commission (SABBBEE) which in September, 2008 conducted training in upgrading skills in sector code development where all the sectors were in attendance.

Further, the CEEC is encouraging the sector leaders to request the PSD for funding to engage consultants to conclude this assignment. It is hoped that the relevant Statutory Instrument (SI) can then be issued and the sector codes would then become law.

Madam Speaker, this is a non-controversial and non-binding Motion and the Government will not oppose it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: It seems the subject has been exhaustively debated.

The House adjourned at 1953 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday 30th July, 2009.