Debates- Wednesday, 3rd March, 2010

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 3rd March, 2010 

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________ 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ZAMBIA’S CONTRIBUTION TO ZIMBABWE’S ECONOMIC RECOVERY

313. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice:

(a)    how much money the Zambian Government intended to contribute to the economic recovery of Zimbabwe;

(b)    why the Government decided to make this contribution; and

(c)    whether this contribution would be beneficial to the Zambian people.

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Mr Chilembo): Mr Speaker, the Government’s contribution towards the economic recovery of Zimbabwe has principally been in the form of humanitarian aid and has since made and intends to contribute to this cause by doing the following:

(i)    in January 2009, the Government released K2 billion to assist fight the cholera outbreak in Zimbabwe. Of this amount, K667 million was a one-off donation of medical supplies and equipment to the Zimbabwean Government and the balance of K1.33 billion was directed at supporting cholera prevention activities in the districts bordering Zimbabwe.

(ii)    a sum of US$600,000 or K2.773 billion (using the current exchange rate of K4,622 per US dollar), in humanitarian aid, will be given to Zimbabwe by the end of this year. By the end of the year, the Government projects to contribute approximately K3.4 billion.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the assistance given to fight cholera, the following is the background. In December, 2008, Zimbabwe experienced a serious outbreak of cholera which affected almost all its provinces. This, in turn, started to affect some of our districts bordering Zimbabwe in the Southern Province. This called for immediate action so as to contain the outbreak as it was going to affect Siavonga, Livingstone and Sinazongwe districts. Consequently, the Zambian Government, through the Ministry of Health and other stakeholders, was obliged to take action by providing cholera medical supplies, materials and equipment to the Zimbabwean Government. In addition, surveillance and preventive activities to contain the cholera outbreak were done in the affected districts of the Southern Province.

During the same period, the Southern African Development Community (SADC), which Zambia is a member of, met and tabled the problem of the cholera outbreak in Zimbabwe and a resolution was passed for all the SADC member states, especially those bordering Zimbabwe, to assist it contain the outbreak.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, as you are aware, Lusaka has been hit by floods and people have started dying. Yesterday, the hon. Minister of Health reported that we had 108 cholera patients. Could the hon. Minister, therefore, explain to this House and the nation the criteria used to give money to the Zimbabwean Government.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, the criterion is that Zimbabwe is a neighbour and, as such, we are obliged to assist our neighbours when they have problems. Secondly, in our reply, we have indicated that if we had not assisted Zimbabwe, cholera was going to spread to some of our districts along the border with Zimbabwe and that was going to cause problems for Zambia as well. Therefore, the criteria were based on humanitarian grounds and our SADC membership. Whenever we have a problem, other SADC members come to our aid as well and therefore, we cannot isolate ourselves from the regional family.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, Zambia, Zimbabwe and Namibia share borders on the same stretch. May I know if Botswana and Namibia also helped Zimbabwe?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I am not able to answer on behalf of those countries. If the hon. Member of Parliament is interested in knowing that, he can visit their embassies and get the details.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, Zambia contributed a lot to the liberation struggle of Zimbabwe. What reward have we received for our contribution?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, when Zambia was contributing to the liberation struggle of Zimbabwe, we did not expect any monetary gains.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mangani: We did that on humanitarian grounds because Zimbabweans are our brothers. When they got their independence, we were proud that our brothers were free. Therefore, as Zambians, we are happy that Zimbabwe is free and there is nothing that we can talk about in terms of monetary gains apart from appreciating the freedom of our brothers.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister what budgetary vote was used for this generous gesture to Zimbabwe because we are talking about public funds?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, we used contingency funds.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I will first quote the Bible which says, “Remove …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order! Ask your question.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has not come out clearly on the rationale behind the decision to assist Zimbabwe when, here, in Zambia, we have similar situations. I will give a very good example of the people of Mazyopa who have lived in tents since 2007.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu visited the cholera centres, she would find a number of organisations assisting us. In the same vein, Zambia cannot just sit idle when other countries are facing problems. Therefore, Zambia is also being assisted because we have been good to others.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, will the hon. Minister confirm that assisting other countries is a matter of policy for this Government? In the same line, would he indicate to this House other neighbouring countries that have received similar assistance other than Zimbabwe?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, indeed, the policy of this Government is to assist our neighbours, hence Zambia’s great sacrifice to liberate the Southern Region. Apart from Zimbabwe, we fought very hard to liberate Mozambique, South Africa and other neighbours. Therefore, Zambia has done a lot in terms of assisting its neighbouring countries.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the cholera in Zimbabwe broke out at the beginning of 2009 and, as we have been informed, the Zambian Government contributed a total of K2 billion in the form of materials and drugs. Given that the cholera situation in Zimbabwe has been contained and, in the meantime, the people of Kabwata, Mandevu and Kanyama constituencies, including Misisi Compound, are in floods and at the risk of contracting cholera, would the hon. Minister and his Government consider withdrawing the offer of the US$600,000.00 which they intend to give to Zimbabwe in 2010?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, we have not failed to deal with the situation in the areas mentioned by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata. We are responding very well …

Mr Lubinda: Ha, ha!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mangani: … by resettling some of the affected people at the Independence Stadium. You can go there and check what is happening. So far, the programme is running very well. The issue of the assistance being rendered to the neighbouring country is not conditional.

I thank you, Sir.

INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUNDS FOR POVERTY REDUCTION AND GROWTH FACILITY FROM 2006 TO 2008

314. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    how much money the Government had received from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) under the Poverty Reduction and Growth Facility from 2006 to 2008; year by year; and

(b)    what other benefits came with the funds above.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, over the period 2006 to 2008, the Government received a total of US$81.9 million from the International Monetary Fund on a yearly basis as follows:

    Year                Value (US$)

2006    24.2 million
2007    41.8 million
2008    15.9 million
Total    81.9 million    

As regards part (b) of the question, a number of benefits have come with the receipt of these funds and these include the following:

(i)    the disbursed funds boosted Zambia’s international reserves to higher levels, thereby enhancing the country’s ability to manage external shocks such as the effects of the recent financial crisis;

(ii)    in general, it has resulted in a healthy position with respect to foreign reserves. This has contributed to relative stability in the foreign exchange rates and market;

(iii)    increased reserves improved confidence in Zambia’s micro-economic management, resulting in other co-operating partners contributing to financial support; and

(iv)    confidence in the economy which is important for stimulating growth and wealth creation was created.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government received money under this facility in 2009, and if so, how much?

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member will follow what he asked in the principal Question Number 314. He made specific reference to the years 2006 to 2008. How does he now slip in 2009?

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, in her answer, the hon. Minister talked about wealth creation. Would she explain further what was created in terms of wealth?

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, stimulating growth and wealth creation is as I said it is. When you create confidence in the economy, investment comes in and jobs are created. That is what is meant by wealth creation. This is a very straightforward answer, which should be understood by all hon. Members.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that the support from IMF assisted Zambia boost her international reserves. Could she indicate to this House what the reserves were at the end of 2008.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Daka) on behalf of The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, this House and the nation should note that the Zambian reserves, today, are at US$1.8 billion, are at their highest level for more than thirty years. Let us separate what IMF gives us, as a Government, because it is reserve support whereas the support that the Africa Development Bank (ADB) and World Bank gives us is budget support. Reserve support helps us sustain our imports. Therefore, what we have, today, can keep this country for four months on import support.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe: Ulabeja!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to explain the policy of borrowing to put in reserve. Is that a sensible policy to embark on?

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, at one point, this country could not even import commodities that were supposed to be used in the industry. The issue of borrowing is to give confidence to the manufacturing industry, farming community and many other sectors. In other words, the policy of this Government is to borrow for sustainable growth.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the interest rate at which these loans were received by the Zambian Government in 2006 and 2008.

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, the figures are not dreamt and if he had asked this question, we would have come with a prepared answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out if there were any conditions attached to these loans and whether there was conformity.

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, the conditions that were attached were the normal international ones. IMF, ADB and the World Bank have continued giving us this support because we have followed the rules and regulations.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, one of the conditions IMF gave the Government was that we should privatise the national entities. Now that the privatisation process is a disaster, what is the comment from IMF?

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, I do not know what the hon. Member means by saying it is a disaster. The Government is not IMF. However, IMF has continued supporting us and this gives us the confidence that we are doing the right things.

I thank you, Sir.

CUSTODIANS AND USE OF KEEP ZAMBIA CLEAN CAMPAIGN MOTOR VEHICLES

315. Mr Mushili (Ndola Central) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)    who the custodian of the “Keep Zambia Clean Campaign” motor vehicles was; and

(b)    what measures had been taken to ensure that the motor vehicles were put to effective use.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Muchima): Mr Speaker, the custodians of the “Keep Zambia Clean Campaign” motor vehicles are councils. 

As regards part (b) of the question, specific guidelines were given to councils on the usage of the vehicles such as garbage collection and any other official council works.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushili: Mr Speaker, the vehicles have always been referred to as constituency utility vehicles. That is what we were told by the late hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. How come the vehicles are always parked at the Local Government offices and are now considered to be for the councils?

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, the guidelines that were sent to the local authorities are very clear. Local authorities are, indeed, the custodians of the vehicles, but they can operate in constituencies in, for instance, Ndola City Council. One of the functions they can perform, among others, is that of garbage collection. They should also ensure that by-laws are adhered to or any other official works such as monitoring projects in the constituencies, cities and districts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, what corresponding fund was given to the councils to ensure that the vehicles are maintained because, at the moment, most of the vehicles are not running and are on blocks?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, as the Central Government, we have done our part by providing tools in the form of vehicles. Local authorities have a maintenance programme that will ensure that the vehicles are used for a long time. 

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the vehicles were bought in 2008 and, therefore, they have only lasted two years. Most of them are down. Is it possible for the hon. Minister to tell this House whether there was any guarantee on the vehicles and how long it was? 

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, I am not sure what is really meant by guarantee in this context. If the vehicles are down because of misuse, then those responsible will have to take appropriate measures to address the issue so that the vehicles are put back on the road. In case a report comes to my office indicating the misuse of the vehicles, I can rest assure the hon. Members that my ministry will take appropriate action because these vehicles were meant for a purpose. Yesterday, there were complaints on the outbreak of cholera and some of the related issues have to do with public health. Therefore, the vehicles have to be used for that purpose.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister said that the vehicles were meant for, among others, garbage collection. Secondly, these are supposed to be constituency-based motor vehicles. Given that background, can I find out from the hon. Minister whether he consulted hon. Members of Parliament before arriving at the guidelines that he gave to councils? Why did he not bring those guidelines to the attention of hon. Members so that they are aware of the conditions under which the vehicles ought to be utilised and exercise their supervisory and oversight role on the management of assets by their councils?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, I remember the former hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing explaining, at a great length, the purpose of the vehicles and everybody was informed about it. Therefore, I would simply say that this was communicated to all the councils, including the hon. Members who are here and are also de facto councillors. 

Interruptions

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, there are a number of questions that were raised on these vehicles. In our responses, we included issues pertaining to enlightening our colleagues so that they understand the use of the vehicles. I would like to remind the hon. Member that these questions, sometimes, serve the purpose of information sharing. This was done through responses to questions.

With regard to the issue of consultation, let me make it clear that this is not mandatory. The policies being implemented are ours and, where necessary, we shall consult. Where it is not necessary, we shall not consult. If we feel that it is an administrative issue, we shall consult within the framework of the local authorities.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the four vehicles which are at the Ndola City Council have been given to heads of departments?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are not aware. As I indicated, if there is that arrangement, take it that it is not according to the guidelines. These vehicles are meant for garbage collection, development, and enforcement of by-laws. Anything outside that is illegal and action has to be taken, starting with the council itself.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the make of the vehicles is not as common as Toyota, hence the difficulty for councils to source spare parts? Councils do not know where to buy spare parts from for such a lesser known make of vehicles.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, whenever we buy items such as vehicles, we take that into consideration.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, for the purpose of records, may inform the House the brand of the vehicles.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, I cannot pronounce it correctly, but I will make an attempt. It is something like Yuejin.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, in purchasing the vehicles for a supposedly good cause, did this Government also consider the rural areas because the vehicles are two-wheel drives? Did they consider the fact that some constituencies such as Luena are very sandy and require only four-wheel drive vehicles? Why was this not taken into account?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, the ministry was aware that some places, in our country, are sandy. Consequently, two-wheel drive vehicles may not be appropriate. We acknowledge that the vehicles may not be appropriate for some of the places that the hon. Member of Parliament has indicated and these are some of the challenges we are facing, unfortunately.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC., (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, was the supplier of these vehicles the same Top Motors which supplied the hearses?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, yes, it was Top Motors.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, the vehicles are not suitable for the purpose for which they were purchased, that is, garbage collection. Garbage collection needs proper dump trucks or garbage collection trucks. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why unsuitable vehicles were bought and when the Government will buy proper garbage collection trucks for the councils.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, with the available resources, we were able to acquire those vehicles. I would like to make this very clear. Let us learn to acknowledge something that has been done by the Government. The Government has made an effort to, at least, collect garbage and perform other duties using the light trucks. The tipper trucks that are meant for heavy duty work such as garbage collection can come later, but let us learn to accept the efforts that are being made. Additionally, we would like to hear from the councils that they are making similar efforts. The Central Government purchased the light trucks, but we also want corresponding efforts from the local level in terms of acquisition of some equipment.

I thank you, Sir.

NUMBER OF NON-GOVERNMENTAL AND COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANISATIONS IN NDOLA CENTRAL CONSTITUENCY

316. Mr Mushili asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

(a)    how many non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and community-based organisations (CBOs) were operating in the Ndola Central Parliamentary Constituency as at September, 2009; and

(b)    how the activities of both NGOs and CBOs were monitored by the Government.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Malwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that by September, 2009, there were twenty-seven non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and two community-based organisations (CBOs) operating in the Ndola Central Parliamentary Constituency. These are detailed as follows:

No.    Name of Organisation    Type    Area of Focus    Area of Operation

1.    Ipusukilo    CBO    Education Support    Nkwazi
            HIV/AIDS Awareness

2.    Hope Humana    NGO    Sensitisation on HIV/AIDS    Northrise
            Provision of VCT Services

3.    Zambia Orphans & Women’s    NGO    Care and Psycho-social     Chipulukusu
    Association (ZOWA)        support for OVCS, the
            aged, widows and disabled
            Economic empowerment

4.    Living Hope    NGO    Care & Psycho-social     Northrise
     Intenational        for OVCs
            Education support

5.    Children Life Touch    NGO    Care & Psycho-social    Northrise
            Support for OVCs
            Education support

6.    Chichetekelo Youth    NGO    Care & support for    Nkwazi
    Project        OVCs
            Education support
            Advocacy & sensitisation 
            on HIV/AIDS

7.    Natweshe    CBO    Care for OVC, and teenage    Kansenshi
            Mothers
            Education support

8.    Vulnerable Ophans &    NGO    Care & support for OVCs    Nkwazi
    Widows Assocation        Education support
            Economic Empowerment 
            Nutrition support
            Advocacy & sensitisation 
            On HIV/AIDS

9.    Savoire Faire    NGO    Advocacy & HIV/AIDS    Twapia
            sensitisation
            VCT services
            Entrepreneurship training

10.    Hosana Mapalo    NGO    Care & support for OVCs    Town Centre
            Education support
            Economic empowerment
            Nutrition support
            Advocacy & sensitisation 
            On HIV/AIDS

11.    Child Care & Adoption    NGO    Care & Psycho-social     Kansenshi
    Society        Support  for OVCs and
            dumped children
            Education support

12.    Kitwe Road    NGO    Education support    George
    Omni-Community School        (Community School)    Twapia
            Nutrition support

13.    Umukolamfula    NGO    Care & Psycho-social    Kansenshi
    (Rainbow)        support for street children    
            Economic Empowerment

14.    Twapia Transit    NGO    Care & Psycho-social    Twapia
    Home        Support for OVCs
            Education support

15.    CINDI Kansenshi    NGO    Education support    Kansenshi
            Care & Support for     Nkwazi
            OVCs

16.    Share an Opportunity    NGO    Care & Psycho-social    North-rise
            Support for OVCs
            Education support

17.    Vulnerable-Child    NGO    Care & Support for OVCs    Chipulukusu
    Advocacy Programme        Education support

18    Buseko Children’s Home    NGO    Care & Psycho-social    Kansenshi
            Support for OVCs
            Education support

19.    Holy Family Children’s    NGO    Care & Psycho-social    Kansenshi
    Home        Support for OVCs
            Education support
            Advocacy & sensitisation
            on HIV/AIDS

20.    Lubuto Father’s Love    NGO    Care & Psycho-social    Kanini
            Support for OVCs
            Education support

21.    Garment of Praise    NGO    Care & Psycho-social    Hillcrest
            Support for OVCs
                Education support

    
22.    Oil of Joy    NGO    Care and psychosocial    Northrise
    support for OVCs
    Education Support

23.    Eagle’s Wings    NGO    Care and psychosocial    Twapia
    support for Street
    Children

    Education support
    Advocacy and sensitisation 
    on HIV/AIDS

Under the Department of Community Development

No    Name of        Type of     Area of Focus    Area of Operation
Organisation       Organisation

24.    Seeds of Hope      NGO    Installation of bio-sand filters    Chipulukusu
                    awareness raising on hygiene            Misundu
                     and sanitation through community        Nkwazi
                     sensitisation meetings            Mandondo

25.    Helfer     NGO    Empowering households with                   Misundu
            International             livestock    

26.       Ndola                       NGO      Empowering Gender in Development     Mandondo
            Resource               groups in basic accounting & book-           Kawama
            Centre               keeping                       Kaniki

27.       Caritas                     NGO         Empowering women in various                Chipulukusu    
            Ndola              activities such as livestock rearing,          Nkwazi
               literacy programmes and awareness
              on protection of women’s rights

28.        Programme             NGO                    Promotion of Energy Saving Brazier        Chipulukusu
            For Basic              called (Pulumusa Stove)
            Energy and
            Conservation
            (PROBEC)

29.       Project Concern     NGO    Promotion of Micro-Savings by      Chipulukusu
            International        training groups in entrepreneurship              Nkwazi
                          skills

Mr Speaker, the activities of the above-mentioned NGOs and CBOs are monitored through the Department of Community Development and Social Services provincial, district and sub-district level office structures on a quarterly basis. In most of the programmes, the ministry has been involved in linking the NGOs and CBOs to the communities where they are now operating. 

Sir, additionally, the officers have also been key in the identification of the beneficiaries, using our selection criteria, as a way of strengthening these activities. A joint monitoring programme is conducted with the NGOs, CBOs and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services to assess the performance of their implementation. However, the ministry would like to inform the House that there are cases where some NGOs and CBOs have a tendency to report only to their donors with the introduction and operationalisation of the NGO Act. This teething problem will soon be a thing of the past.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. 

Mr Mushili: Mr Speaker, is the ministry aware of certain NGOs that are providing some education facilities which are supposed to serve the community and the leaders of such NGOs claim those facilities to be theirs and run them commercially?

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are aware that there are some NGOs that are providing education facilities, but we are not aware of the NGOs that have turned those facilities into their personal belongings.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, amongst the NGOs and CBOs that were mentioned by the hon. Minister, some happen to be women’s groups. Could I find out from the hon. Minister when the Women’s Empowerment Fund will be released as was the case in 2007 and 2008, through hon. Members of Parliament, to women’s groups in Ndola Constituency?

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, in my answers, under the Department of Community Development, I outlined the women’s groups that are being assisted. At the moment, we have waived the system of assisting through hon. Members of Parliament. All the assistance to women’s groups and women’s clubs will be directly handled by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services at the district level. The hon. Members of Parliament are welcome to come to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and present these project proposals for the women’s clubs.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

RADIOLOGISTS IN THE COUNTRY

317. Mr Simuusa asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    what the approved establishment of radiologists in the country was;

(b)    how many radiologists were working in Government hospitals countrywide as of 30th September, 2009;

(c)    what the reason for the shortfall was; and

(d)    how many radiologists, on average, graduate from Evelyn Hone College annually.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Musonda): Mr Speaker, the approved establishment of radiologists in the country is fourteen and this is as follows:

Institution    Section    Unit    Salary/Scale    Post    Structure

Arthur Davison    Radiology    X-Ray    MDS01    Consultant    1
Specialised Hospital                            Radiologist

Kitwe Central    Radiology    Radiology     MDS01    Consultant    1
Hospital                                Radiologist

Ndola Central    Radiology    Radiology     MDS01    Consultant    1
Hospital                                Radiologist

University    Radiology    General          MDS01    Consultant    1
Teaching        and Imaging    Radiology            Intervention
Hospital        Diagnostic                    Radiologist

University     Radiology    General           MDS01    Consultant    1
Teaching        and Imaging    Radiology            Nuero
Hospital                         Diagnostic                    Radiologist

University    Radiology    Administration     MDS01    Consultant    1
Teaching    and Imaging                    Radiologist
Hospital    Diagnostic

University    Radiology    Computerised    MDS01    Consultant    1
Teaching         and Imaging    Tomographic            Radiologist
Hospital        Diagnostic

University    Radiology    General    MDS01    Consultant    1
Teaching        and Imaging    Radiology            Radiologist
Hospital        Diagnostic

University    Radiology    General    MDS03    Registrar-    2
Teaching        and Imaging    Radiology            Radiology
Hospital        Diagnostic

University    Radiology    General    MDS02    Senior    2
Teaching        and Imaging    Radiology            Registrar-    
Hospital        Diagnostic                    Radiologist

Headquarters    Cancer     General     MDS01    Consultant    1
            Hospital        Radiology            Radiologist

Chainama Hills    Clinical    Radiology    MDS01    Consultant    1
College Hospital    Services

Total                                            14

Mr Speaker, there were four radiologists who were working in Government hospitals countrywide by 30th September, 2009 and these are as follows:

The University Teaching Hospital (UTH) has three radiologists. Of these, only one is a Zambian while the other two are from China and Ukraine. Ndola Central Hospital has one radiologist from Ukraine and one more radiologist from China, giving us a total of five.

Sir, the reason for the shortfall is that the course is not offered in Zambia and it is very costly to sponsor people to study it abroad. However, we have started sponsoring some doctors who want to specialise in this course. As I speak, one is already undergoing training abroad. It is our hope that with the introduction of the new course at the University of Zambia Medical School, radiology training will be considered. 

Sir, Evelyn Hone College does not train radiologists, but it does train radiographers at the diploma level.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. 

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, this is definitely a very essential requirement in the hospital. For Evelyn Hone College, it would just be a question of upgrading.

Mr Speaker: Order! Do not debate. Ask your question.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, why do we not upgrade the facilities at Evelyn Hone College so as to offer this course at that institution?

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, I would like to educate the hon. Member on what type of personnel a radiologist is. A radiologist is a doctor who has specialised in medical imaging. More importantly, it should be in diagnostic or interventional medical imaging. They specialise in how to use very sophisticated medical equipment such as the magnetic resonance imagining (MRI) one of which we currently have in the country. There is the Computed Tomography (CT) scan and the radio isotope administration, which we do not have in this country, among others.  

Mr Speaker, the training of such a cadre of personnel at Evelyn Hone College would require the equipment I have mentioned. As such, it is far-fetched for the college to train radiologists. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that the establishment is fourteen, and that, currently, we have only four in position. This is just slightly over 25 per cent of what we need. Will the ministry not consider declaring this an emergency for the country so that more resources are allocated to this sector for the training of more radiologists so as to go some way towards meeting the needs of our country in this particular area?

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, it is the wish of this Government to have radiologists in almost all provinces in the country. This will ensure that we have, at least, one radiologist per general hospital that we have in each province. It would be good to have one radiologist stationed at each of these hospitals. The best action, however, would be to acquire the equipment that is needed for use. The equipment and instruments that we have, at the moment, are adequate. It is our wish to proceed with the little that we have. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Mushili: Mr Speaker, with the lack of radiologists in the hospitals in our country, who is expected to run or operate the MRI, which is a very sophisticated and expensive machine, when it comes into the country?

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, I was quite clear in my answer that we have four radiologists at UTH, where the MRI and CT scan will be installed in a short while. I think that, for now, the four are adequate. 

I thank you, Sir.

REHABILITATION OF THE MATERNITY WING AT SANTA MARIA MISSION HEALTH CENTRE IN CHILUBI BY LUTHEN CONTRACTORS

318. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    why Luthen Contractors had taken long to complete the rehabilitation of the maternity wing at Santa Maria Mission Rural Health Centre in Chilubi District; and

(b)    why the contractor was not paying the workers at the construction site. 

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, the completion of the rehabilitation of the maternity wing at Santa Maria Mission Rural Health Centre by Luthen Contractors has taken long mainly because of the differences between the Irish Aid that sponsored the project, and the contractor on the quality of the work that was being done. It is for this reason that a meeting held on 3rd November, 2009 between the contractor, the Buildings Department and the Provincial Health Office resolved to terminate the contract of this contractor. The remaining works, therefore, mainly plumbing and water reticulation, shall be awarded to another contractor to finalise. 

Mr Speaker, the non-payment of the employees is a contractual issue between the contractor and his workers and the ministry was not party to it, hence it is quite difficult for the ministry to comment.

I thank you, Sir.     

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the contractor in question was last at the site in September, 2008? This being the case, how does the ministry intend to help the people of Chilubi, especially those at Santa Maria Rural Health Centre where there is no Labour Ward? 

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member should appreciate the Government’s efforts in trying to make sure that the health centre is completed. I mentioned earlier that it is because of this delay that a meeting was called. The funders of this project went into a contract with the mission administration and the Government did not have much say on this issue. However, because there was too much delay, the Government and the Provincial Health Office stepped in and called for the termination of the contract. We are taking over to ensure that we complete the facility and sort out this problem resolutely. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said the contract was terminated. I would like to find out whether there were any penalties. 

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, I do not know whether there were any penalties because this contract was not between the Government and the contractor. The Government just stepped in to try and facilitate the completion of the works in the quickest possible time. 

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the quantification of the project completion process has been in losses. I would like him to indicate to this House how much has been lost because of failure to complete the project on time. 

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, I have consistently mentioned that the project was not between the Government and Luthen Contractors. It was between the mission administration, which is just our partner, and Luthen Contractors. The Government only stepped in to make sure that the works were completed so that we could help the people by delivering quality health services. We are, therefore, not privy to the details that the hon. Member is asking for. 

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, regarding the Millennium Development Goal (MDG) number five which talks about reducing maternal mortality rates, would the hon. Minister tell this House what has been put in place for this particular health centre to see to it that women deliver in a safe environment? 

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for her concern. 

Sir, this goal should not be based on one health centre. It is supposed to be based on the countrywide services that we are providing. It is not true that there is absolutely no provision of maternity services for the people at Santa Maria Mission Hospital. Deliveries are probably not as comfortable as we would wish them to be because they are not up to standard, but other maternal services such as antenatal are being offered. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. {mospagebreak}

DEMARCATION OF CHIEFDOM BOUNDARIES

319. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)    when chiefdom boundaries were last demarcated; and

(b)    when the next demarcation exercise was expected to begin.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that chiefdoms were last demarcated in 1958 and the maps showing chiefs’ boundaries were drawn in the same year.

Mr Speaker, there are, currently, no plans to re-demarcate the chiefdoms as this may just cause more wrangles. The House may wish to know that the House of Chiefs unanimously agreed, during the May, 2007 sitting, that the 1958 maps should be maintained.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, from the answer given by the hon. Minister, it is clear that the last map was drawn by our colonial masters. What have we done, from as far back as independence, to redraw this map and avert the numerous disputes between our chiefdoms?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, the 1958 maps have consistently been referred to and used for any boundary disputes. We want to maintain that position. Indeed, we got independence thereafter, but we resolved to continue using those maps because we feel that if we, again, start a new chapter of re-demarcation, numerous problems will arise. Therefore, for now, we are going to continue using the 1958 maps and even our House of Chiefs has agreed with us on using these maps.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that, currently, there are wrangles because of the 1958 maps. I would like to know exactly what practical steps this Government is taking to harmonise the existing disputes among our chiefs, especially the ones between Chief Inyambo Yeta and Chief Moomba in Kazungula District and, particularly, between Chief Hamusonde and Chief Mwanachingwala.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, wherever boundary disputes arise, we make sure that we liaise with the chiefs and the House of Chiefs and advise adherence to the 1958 maps. In case two or more chiefs disagree on these boundaries, they are free to go to the courts of law. The first case that the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central referred to, the one between Senior Chief Inyambo Yeta and Chief Moomba, is in the courts of law. Therefore, the courts will determine the correct position. The courts are some of the avenues that some chiefs are using to have their disputes resolved.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that the boundary wrangles are persistent, what is the Government doing to sensitise or educate the chiefs, including those who are not yet in dispute, to follow the 1958 maps and thereby reduce the number of wrangles among chiefs?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, the Government is using members of the House of Chiefs to abate the wrangles. Being representatives of chiefs, they are able to share this information with other chiefs. Whenever we meet these chiefs, we talk to them about the 1958 maps. Even at the district level, the local authorities are aware about our insistence on the 1958 maps. Therefore, we shall continue raising that awareness so that everybody knows about the use of those maps.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, in view of the wrangles that keep coming up from time to time, would the hon. Minister not wish to consider printing out the 1958 maps and distributing them to all chiefdoms in the country so that they all know where their borders end?

Dr Kazonga indicated assent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Luapula for that proposal. I feel we can consider moving in that direction so that everybody is aware about those maps and the chiefdom boundaries.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order! May I guide the hon. Minister to include hon. Members of Parliament in the distribution of the 1958 maps.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker gave the Floor to Mr Chimbaka.

Mr Chimbaka: The Chair just read my mind.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. 

Laughter

YOUTH CITIZENS’ ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT FUND BENEFICIARIES IN 2008 AND 2009

320. Mrs Musokotwane asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

(a)    how many youth groups and individual youths benefited from the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund in 2008 and 2009; and

(b)    of these youth groups and individual youths, how many were from Katombola Parliamentary Constituency.

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that no funds were disbursed to any youth group or individuals in 2008 as the mechanism to do so was not yet in place. A total of twenty-five individual projects, with a total sum of K4.5 billion, benefited from the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) in 2009.

Sir, the information collected was not disseminated at the constituency level.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that they did not disseminate the information to the constituencies, what is the hon. Minister going to do to ensure that we get the information so that we give it to our youths?

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, we are working on that so that the information is disseminated at the constituency level and we shall make it available to hon. Members of Parliament.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. 

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the Government is doing to ensure that the forms for the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund are made user friendly to youths and women.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, the issue of the forms has always been coming up. What we did last month was redesign and simplify the form for amounts of up to K50 million, including collateral, where collateral will also be simplified and will only be attributable to referencing so that we can make sure our people access these funds easily.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, is there any help that the Government is currently offering to help groups understand or easily fill in these current difficult forms?

Mr Mutati: A number of sensitisation programmes, whose sole purpose is to make the communities understand how they should be able to fill in these forms, have been carried out in most of the districts.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, what kind of collateral will be required from people applying for amounts of K50 million, but have no houses? 

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Chimwemwe was not listening because the hon. Minister did actually say something on that matter. The hon. Minister may emphasise the point for the benefit of the hon. Member for Chimwemwe.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, we said that for amounts of up to K50 million, collateral had been simplified to the extent that one only needs a reference from the community saying that the borrower has the capacity to pay back.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, I note that, recently, the Government decided to transfer funds from CEEC to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services in order to benefit women’s clubs and the people in that category because it was difficult to access funds from CEEC. Can that not apply to the youths who have found it extremely difficult to access the funds? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, in the 2010 Budget, this Parliament approved allocations to the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development and to the Ministry of Gender in Development for the same reason.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I am wondering if the CEEC empowerment is all about giving out money or there are other projects of empowerment.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, empowerment is much broader than merely the extension of cash to various projects. It also includes capacity building in terms of maintaining records and preferential procurement, particularly with regard to Government departments and ministries.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we have been lamenting the bureaucracy that is associated with the actual acquiring of the funds once approvals have been made. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if anything has been done to simplify the process of accessing the money after approvals have been done.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, we did face that challenge and we took the decision that the disbursement of funds should be decentralised to the provincial level to ease the constraints that were being faced. Henceforth, all the cheques up to K50 million will be issued at provincial centres.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I have been following the disbursement of these funds keenly. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether these funds, which are supposed to empower our people in the country, should be disbursed on partisan lines because when people go to apply for them, they are asked to state which party they belong to.

Interruptions

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, on the form used for applying for the funds under CEEC, there is no column for indicating which party one belongs to.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, some of the beneficiaries of the CEEF have complained about the lack of a moratorium on the repayment of the loans. Would the hon. Minister indicate whether CEEC is considering providing moratorium to give an opportunity to these people to start their business and have a gestation period? 

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, what basically happens is that when one submits a business proposal, one indicates, in that proposal, one’s capacity for repayment. If one is unable to pay in month one, one has to indicate to us in which month one can start paying and that is equivalent to a moratorium.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Mwape (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I am wondering at what point the citizens access the facility of capacity building. Is it prior to obtaining the loan or after? I ask this question because I would like to know whether the people are initially prepared or they only prepare once they have accessed these loans.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, it is basically at two stages, prior to obtaining the loan and when the loan is obtained. CEEC continues to monitor the ability of the applicant regarding the repayment schedule.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, from the time CEEF was created, what has been the performance in terms of repayments and what is the situation is at the moment.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, what we have done at the ministry is request CEEC to indicate, to us, the performance particularly on the repayments so that we take measures on areas where we have difficulties.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mushili: Mr Speaker, will the hon. Minister tell us the timeframe within which an applicant should have the money released to them if there are no problems? 

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, it is difficult, at the moment, to indicate a timeframe for each and every application at the provincial centre. What we are attempting to do is on the basis of best endeavour.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF A YOUTH RESOURCE CENTRE IN MUFULIRA

321. Ms Mwape asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development:

(a)    when a youth resource centre would be constructed in Mufulira Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b)    whether the Government would consider using existing infrastructure in the constituency as a resource centre with the consent of the stakeholders.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that my ministry has no immediate plans to construct a youth resource centre in Mufulira Parliamentary Constituency. However, the policy of the Government is to construct, at least, one youth resource centre in each district. Currently, eight youth resource centres are under construction in various parts of the country. At the moment, there are two youth resource centres on the Copperbelt in Lufwanyama and Mpongwe. The ministry will continue to build more youth resource centres as and when financial resources are available.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the existing youth facility infrastructure, that is, youth resource centres in the constituency, I wish to advise that the ministry will turn available infrastructure into youth resource centres after establishing its suitability for such purposes. The infrastructure must meet the laid-down standards in line with the Technical Education Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA) and the building plans set by my ministry together with the Ministry of Works and Supply. In addition, there should be a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) between my ministry and the owners of the infrastructure.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, I am wondering how the Government will ensure that Mufulira Constituency youth residents fully partake of their share of the national cake other than through the general district arrangement, particularly the support that is given by the International Labour Organisation (ILO) in the form of library and other facilities. However, does the ministry or Government realise that infrastructure is cardinal for the purpose of monitoring projects that are not only spearheaded by our co-operating partners, but also the Government such as projects initiated under the Youth Constituency Development Fund (YCDF) that Hon. Banda just referred to? Really, what do you have for Mufulira Constituency with regard to having its full share of the national cake since we cannot have a resource centre immediately?

Amen. Thank you, Sir.

Laughter 

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Chipungu): Mr Speaker, let me start by thanking ILO and the other co-operating partners that are operating in Mufulira and encourage them to try and assist the vulnerable youths. I would also like to say that these skills training centres are a very good concept for helping the youths, engaging them and finding something for them to do. This is so because the youths will be equipped with the necessary survival skills. However, at the moment, like the hon. Deputy Minister has indicated on the Floor of this House, we have no resources. For now, the most important matter is to wait until the resources are made available and, like the hon. Member indicated, perhaps, we could assist her with a resource centre in her constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, we are all aware that K5 billion was allocated to this ministry for youth empowerment, Can the ministry, therefore, consider getting part of this money to construct a resource centre for the vulnerable people of Mufulira Constituency?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, it is not possible to transfer these funds from the youth empowerment vote to the construction of a resource centre because empowerment is a very noble cause in terms of its purpose. The K5 billion that this august House approved, under my ministry, is exclusively for youth empowerment. Again, very soon, perhaps around October, this year, Parliament will be considering allocations to various ministries. Maybe, then, I can ask my colleagues to support my ministry to get more funding than it did this year so that this money could be allocated to various districts for the construction of youth resource centres.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lumba: Mr Speaker, can the Government consider turning some of the buildings left by Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) that are all over the towns on the Copperbelt into youth resource centres?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, if he was listening carefully, he would have heard that we have said it very clearly that while we appreciate that some of these buildings may be available, they should meet the standards of TEVETA as well as the plans that the ministry, in conjunction with the Ministry of Works and Supply, has. Perhaps, to go further, there is no harm for us in going to look at these buildings or structures which the hon. Members may be having in their constituencies for that purpose.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, it is on record that the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) manifesto mentions that it is going to support all youths in the country. However, the hon. Minister stated that they are going to build resource centres selectively, based on criteria which we do not know. Can they confirm to this House and the nation that they have failed the youths of this country, particularly that they have no plans to make sure that the youths are taken care of at all?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member, who was once MMD and District Commissioner for Itezhi-tezhi, for that follow-up question.

Laughter 

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, my ministry has not failed the youths of this country at all.

Mrs Phiri: Question!

Mr Chipungu: This is the more reason that a sum of K5 billion was given to my ministry, as Youth Empowerment Fund and this money will be disbursed starting from 1st April, 2010. Again, it is up to the hon. Members of Parliament to go back to their constituencies to form clubs, do project proposals and submit them to my office. 

Mr Speaker, I think the hon. Member of Parliament for Munali has done very well in her case because she has a very beautiful resource centre that is offering several courses to youths. Therefore, she must appreciate and give this Government a pat on its back.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter 

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether it is possible for him to ask the provincial youth development officers, who are in various provinces, to inspect the former ZCCM buildings because they meet international standards so that he can be urgently availed with a report in order for us to move quickly in that direction.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, that is good advice from the hon. Member. Perhaps, there is a need to take that approach.

I thank you.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, skills training centres are very cardinal in preparing youths for informal employment in this country. Is the Government not considering giving loans to youth groups and individuals for carpentry tools?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, it is important that after youths graduate from these centres, they are given some start-up capital. In fact, we have been doing this, in the past, except that, along the way, we stopped because of lack of funds. However, since we now have the Youth Empowerment Fund in my ministry, and hopefully, in subsequent years it will be increased, it is important to consider the prospect of giving some funds to the youths after they graduate from these very important institutions.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I would like to know the hon. Minister’s assessment of the number of youths who are suffering and thus require empowerment and whether the K5 billion allocation to youth empowerment is sufficient to rectify this situation.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I think the situation is very pathetic. We all know that Zambia is a youthful country. Out of the total national population of 12 million, 68 per cent or 7 million people are youths. We are also aware that almost every year, about 300,000 children leave school at the grades 7, 9 and 12 levels and very few of them go beyond Grade 12 into colleges and universities. There is also a segment of youths that has never been to school for one reason or the other. 

Mr Speaker, the figure is alarming and, therefore, the K5 billion allocated to my ministry for youth empowerment is insufficient. As for the way forward, we have to do with what we have, at the moment, due to insufficient resources. I am optimistic that, in the subsequent years, the allocation to this fund, in my ministry, will increase and we will be able to help our youths countrywide.

I thank you, Sir.

EXTENSION OF MTN, ZAIN AND CELL-Z SERVICES TO CHASEFU PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

322. Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. asked the Minister of Communications and Transport when MTN, ZAIN and CELL-Z would extend their services to the following places in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency:

(a)    Khulamayembe;

(b)    Mwata;

(c)    Munyukwa;

(d)    Nkhanga; and

(e)    Chizingizi.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, Zain has a repeater at Magodi which, once upgraded to a full site, may be able to provide coverage in Mwata and Chizingizi. Zain will also undertake appropriate technical tests to determine the impact of this option in addressing the coverage areas. As for Khulamayembe, Munyukwa and Nkhanga, Zain shall undertake geo-marketing surveys to establish the potential for investment in these areas.

The other two mobile operators do not have immediate plans to extend their services to the areas mentioned by Hon. Chifumu Kingdom Banda, SC. However, the Government, through the Universal Access Fund Facility, which is administered by the Zambia Information Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA), is planning to construct Global System for Mobile (GSM) transmission towers in all rural areas, including Chasefu Constituency, where there is no mobile phone service. It is the Government’s hope that the Universal Access Fund Facility will provide the necessary incentives to allow mobile services roll out to all the seventy-two districts within the next eighteen months, to be followed by the extension of the same to remote areas.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government is working with these mobile service providers to come up with a master plan to extend their services to areas such as the constituency that has been mentioned.

Laughter

Mr Mubika: Mr Speaker, I have indicated that, through the Universal Access Fund Facility, we will cover all the remote areas in the country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

____________ 

MOTION

INTRODUCTION OF BIRTH REGISTRATION DESKS AT ALL HEALTH FACILITIES 

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Sir, I beg to move that in view of the Government’s decision to make birth certificates a pre-requisite for obtaining national registration cards, this House urges the Government to introduce birth registration desks at all health facilities.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to move this important Motion whose main purpose is to highlight the importance of scaling up efforts towards the achievement of universal child birth registration in Zambia. Permit me to begin by giving the House an understanding of what birth registration is.

Sir, during this debate, I would wish birth registration to be understood as the official recording of birth of a child, through an administrative process of the State, and is co-ordinated by a particular branch of Government, in our case, the Department of National Registration, Passports and Citizenship.

It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence which establishes the child’s legal identity. This process ends with the issuance of the birth certificate as evidence of registration.

Sir, the importance of birth registration cannot be overemphasised. Globally, birth registration is acknowledged as a fundamental human right which not only legitimises the existence and identity of a child, but instills a sense of belonging to a family, community and a nation in the child. 

Birth registration and issuance of a birth certificate, as a right, facilitates protection of the child from exploitation and abuse in many areas, including child labour and trafficking. It also facilitates access to juvenile justice within the judicial system. In all cases, it is the birth certificate that is used as a basis for authenticating the identity and age of the child. 

Mr Speaker, as we are all aware, in Zambia, the birth registration process is facilitated through the Birth and Death Registration Act of 1973 under Chapter 51 of the Laws of Zambia. Despite this Act, however, birth registration is estimated to be lower than 10 per cent which is a very shameful and an unacceptable state of affairs.

Mr Speaker, not registering children means denying them not only the birth right to identity as provided for in the Birth and Death Registration Act, Cap 51 of the Laws of Zambia and as enshrined in Article 7 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC), but also many other rights which every citizen is entitled to. 

For example, some children have had difficulties in claiming their deceased parents’ pension dues to lack of proof of identity and relationship. Some children who have been abused have had to shoulder the burden of proving that they are actually minors. Further, juvenile offenders have, in some cases, been treated as adults in the justice system due to the failure to prove their correct age.

Mr Speaker, the decision to make the possession of a birth certificate for one to obtain a national registration card (NRC) has created a lot of difficulties and frustrations among the citizenry, especially those in rural areas who are poorly resourced. Imagine an old grandmother who takes a child to obtain an NRC having to be asked to find a Commissioner of Oaths to swear and confirm the identity of the child. This can be discouraging and can make some citizens shy away from obtaining NRCs. There is an urgent need, therefore, to find ways of ensuring that all children are registered at birth. One of the strategies is to decentralise the system through the involvement of many stakeholders who have the potential to enhance the process.

Mr Speaker, recent research has demonstrated that there are many stakeholders who are involved in child protection and development although these are not recognised as key players in the birth registration process by the Birth and Death Registration Act of 1973. One such stakeholder is the Ministry of Health that maintains a record of all births at health facilities, and yet it only has a limited role in the birth registration process. We are all aware that the ministry, through … 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was saying that we were all aware that the ministry, through health facilities, issues records of birth and under five cards that are used to show proof of birth of a child. I have no doubt that the ministry has the potential to support birth registration services on a sustainable basis by playing an active role in awareness creation and being birth registration centres.

Mr Speaker, a recent study supported by the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) and disseminated in January, this year, reported that out of 670 children covered, 70.5 per cent were born at a health facility while 28 per cent were born outside the health facility system, but reported to the health facility. Only 1.5 per cent born outside the system were not reported. Clearly, the health facility provides the best opportunity for the attainment of universal birth registration.

There is, therefore, an urgent need to develop a strong partnership with the Ministry of Health at all levels, especially at delivery service points. The current book for deliveries could be redesigned in order to capture data that is required in the issuance of birth certificates. Children born at home would be captured to receive under-five services at their first visit. 

As I end, I appeal to the Government to urgently decentralise the registration system as is being suggested here. Apprehension bordering on the security concerns posed through the decentralisation of the system should not be allowed to override the need to afford every child an opportunity to be registered.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later.

Mr Sing’ombe Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, the mover of the Motion has already acquainted the House with its most significant aspects and I only rise to add a few thoughts to the debate.

Sir, the usefulness of reliable birth registration data is widely understood by many stakeholders in the country, and yet our registration rate has remained very low. As the mover has noted, it still remains below 10 per cent. For our country to develop, we must recognise the need for vital statistics in effective policy formulation. We must not condone data gaps of up to 90 per cent, especially in delicate matters such as those concerning the plight of children. Without children’s data, I wonder how the Government is able to efficiently plan and monitor national policies and programmes for children. I shudder to imagine how we would account for the children if the country was to be struck by a disaster such as an earthquake.

Sir, recent surveys on birth registration in Zambia have revealed the main underlying factors for failure to achieve higher levels of birth registration that I now wish to share with hon. Members. 

Firstly, there is an evident lack of knowledge or understanding of birth registration amongst the populace. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Sing’ombe: Most people have neither knowledge nor information about birth registration. They lack understanding of the value and importance of birth registration. There is no urgency or motivation on the part of parents until they experience problems later in the development of their children. There is, therefore, a need for a mass awareness campaign to make people realise the importance of the registration of children at birth. The campaign must be designed along the same lines as the anti-polio campaigns in which radio, television and newspapers are used to send messages so as to promote child birth registration across. I am also aware that other countries have, in partnership with mobile phone companies, designed campaigns ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

We seem to be consulting loudly. The hon. Member debating cannot be heard by the Chairperson.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Sing’ombe: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am also aware that other countries have, in partnership with mobile phone companies, designed campaigns based on the transmission of text messages to promote birth registration. This could be emulated.

Secondly, Sir, there is the issue of the low priority placed on birth registration by the Government. During election periods, the Government does not talk about birth registration as much as it does NRCs. It does not have the political will to commit more resources to this purpose. Further, the people’s representatives, like hon. Members and councillors, do not further this issue in their areas at all. It is important that all political, civic and traditional leaders talk to the masses about the need to have children registered as required by the law.

Thirdly, financial, material and other resources are not adequate to improve birth registration. The Department of National Registration has continued to be so poorly funded that it cannot support birth registration. The Government should enhance its funding to the department and the relevant line ministries. Further, the Government should encourage stakeholders to have an integrated approach to birth registration so as to pool resources together.

The final point is the well-known geographical barriers and access to district offices, given the high poverty levels which are a major challenge for the rural poor and vulnerable people. Most parents or guardians in rural areas, in particular, earn very little income to think of spending it on birth registration through transport and associated costs. This is the point this Motion is making. Therefore, why not decentralise the exercise to all health facilities most of which are in the vicinity of most Zambians?

Mr Speaker, as I second, I ask all hon. Members to support this Motion on the Floor.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me, in the first instance, thank the mover of this Motion, Hon. Jean Kapata, and the seconder, Hon. Edgar Sing’ombe, for a wonderful job done.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: I think many of us had put this out of our minds ...

Mr Muyanda crossed the Floor.

Hon. Members: Order!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

When mistakes are made, you just sit quietly because, once you begin talking, then everybody will know that you have made a mistake.

The hon. Member for Luena may continue.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, I am not very surprised. Some of those doing those things do not know their birthdays. This is what this Motion is meant to address.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, I am very happy to be able to support this Motion on the grounds that it is long overdue. The Government needs to be reminded or helped to put in place a system that will ensure that every child that is born in this country does, indeed, have a birth certificate based on a birth record. The Motion also talks about all health facilities having a birth desk that will register all births. 

Again, in this Motion, we are reminded of one fact that the vast majority of citizens of this country are left out of important issues. I remind this House that even though we have health facilities not only in towns, but also in some parts of rural areas, the vast majority of births in rural areas take place in homes in the villages. Therefore, even as we pass this non-controversial Motion, we must recognise that a great number of children will still be born in rural areas and not be captured. As I said, a number of children will still be born in homes and villages. In view of this, I urge that in addition to ensuring that all our health facilities have this facility, we recognise the plight of those in rural areas. As for the Western Province in particular, I would add that in addition to health centres, the silalo kutas and kutas, which are courts for the chiefs, and are, indeed, administrative centres in those areas, should also be empowered to register births that take place in villages so that every child in this country is registered.

  We are already aware of many births, even for some hon. Members in this House, whose records of birth are made with reference to some events like the first plane landing somewhere or locusts that came in a particular year.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: Muntanga!

Mr Milupi: At this particular time, we must ensure that all children’s births are registered. Why do we need to do this? First of all, it is a pre-requisite for this country to understand and know the exact number of its citizens. 

Mr Speaker, we must also move to a stage where certain issues are done automatically. Let it be a birth right for every child born in this country to have a record of birth through what is being proposed by this Motion.

Let every child that is raised in this country also have an automatic right to possession of an NRC when they turn sixteen years of age, unlike what is happening now where most of children have to go through trials and tribulations just to get an ordinary document such as an NRC. We can even go further and let every youth who reaches the ripe age of eighteen also have an automatic and guaranteed registration as a voter so that all these elements of birth registration and voter’s cards are given automatically like it is done in other countries. Why do we need to do this?

As I said, we need to know the exact population that we have for the purpose of planning for the utilisation of the resources of this country. All too often, we see that in certain parts of this country, we rely on people taking an oath or, indeed, claiming that they were present when a particular person was born all because they do not have birth certificates. We see that the demographics of certain areas have changed, especially in the light of the fact that we have many refugees residing in this country. All of a sudden, they have transformed themselves, with the help of unscrupulous people, into citizens of this country. 

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: If we allow this Motion to go through and the Government implements it, it will be difficult, at a later stage, for someone who did not have a birth record to claim that they were born in a particular part of this country. We need to ensure that those who come when they are already old attain citizenship through other methods such as registration or marriage or something like that.

Mr Speaker, these points are cardinal, but above all, I urge this House to support this Motion and, especially, emphasise that this is one of those things that should be done automatically. The resources should be provided for that.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this straightforward Motion.

Sir, this is a Motion that, more or less, reminds parents about their responsibilities. It is a Motion that reminds us that we need to have birth certificates for our children. I am aware that birth certificate issuance is already decentralised. Each district issues birth certificates, but the problem is with the parents who fail to take the information to the district to have a birth certificate issued. I can imagine what will happen when we will have the rural health centres issuing birth certificates. There will still be a problem in giving birth certificates because a birth certificate cannot be issued if the father denies paternity of the child. A man must accept that he is the father of the child and that his name be put on that birth certificate. Men should accept that they fathered the children.

Mrs Phiri: Zoona!

Mr Muntanga: Therefore, the certificate will show that the child belongs to Mabenga …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … without which, you will not …

Mr Mabenga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, is Hon. Muntanga in order, first and foremost, to behave like a charged buffalo when he is speaking ...

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: … and secondly, refer to my name when it does not come anywhere near his vocabulary? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: This point of order, maybe, serves to remind those debating that they must, as much as possible, avoid giving examples of individuals whom we know may not take kindly to those examples. To that extent, the hon. Member for Kalomo Central was out of order. 

Continue, please, hon. Member.

Mr Muntanga: It is actually important that this document bears a surname. I can imagine that …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I have got cousins on the Government side and I have to give examples. This is because there is no way I cannot talk about …

Hon. Opposition Members: Lungwangwa!

Mr Muntanga: … Hon. Professor Lungwangwa.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: I have to …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let us avoid doing that because you are giving examples that are controversial.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Let us stop giving examples. This is a final ruling. Do not disobey the Speaker’s ruling. 

Continue, please, hon. Member.

Mrs Phiri: Hon. Professor Lungwangwa!

Mr Muntanga: However, it is important that as we talk about children who need birth certificates, this Motion reminds all of us to own up and accept that a child is born …

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … and that it needs a father.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the father must accept that his surname be used. I know that, in the villages, there are traditions where a woman must not mention the name of the husband.

Mr Mabenga: Which village?

Mr Muntanga: We have heard of that even in Mulobezi.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: When a woman is asked who the father of the child is, she asks another person to mention it because it is taboo for the wife to do otherwise as it is considered to be disrespectful. Therefore, it is important that this Motion reminds everybody that it is important that children have birth certificates. It is a very harmless Motion. 

Mr Speaker, it is important that the Government recognises the existence of birth certificates. However, we tend to ignore them when we, in fact, need them most. For example, if a child needs to get a passport, and has a birth certificate, one will still be asked to take an oath that they know it. Of what significance is it if we do not accept the birth certificate? This Motion is reminding us and the Government to respect birth certificates.

Mr Speaker, I experienced a funny situation where my son died and his child wanted to get a passport.  Even with an original birth certificate from Kalomo, I was asked to sign an affidavit to prove the day the child was born. This is even after I had told them that there was evidence of a birth certificate that was signed by the District Registrar. Therefore, this Motion is just reminding the Government that birth certificates must be respected. In all situations, when a child is born, the hospital will give us a document that will prove the identity of the child.

Sir, there is one document that is easily obtained from hospitals and this is the death certificate. As long as the doctors sign that death certificate, it will be accepted everywhere as a legal document. Why can we not do the same with the birth certificates so that we solve some of these problems especially regarding when a child was born? Sometimes, when a child asks the mother when it was born, the mother may not be sure. Sometimes, a parent would say, “I think it is the time they were celebrating in Shang’ombo or, maybe, the time there was a flood or there was the Kuomboka Ceremony”. We still have people who may not really know the real birthdays of their children. 

Therefore, this Motion is very important because it reminds us that we should help people have proper records. We know the population of the people because we have the Central Statistical Office, but we also need to have records. There will be no more arguments because we will know that only one child was born with certain particulars. We also know that there is only one change which is from a youth to an adult. I will not give an example as per your ruling, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, it is important for this nation to know what this Motion entails. It simply entails that we should know that if Hon. Mwangala is old, it is a fact. We shall not call him a youth chairman.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, these birth certificates will confirm that one was born at a particular time and place. We shall avoid situations where someone who is born near the Lundazi Border can claim to be either a Malawian or a Zambian as that person wishes. The hospitals and clinics in Lundazi will have to confirm those who are truly Zambians and those who are not. Therefore, this Motion reminds us of responsibility. 

Mr Speaker, I am very grateful to the mover and the seconder of this Motion for reminding the Government that this document, that is already issued up to the district level …

Hon. Government Member: The mover is from Angola!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga:…is important in proving that the mover was born in Zambezi and not Angola.  

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: This particular document will help us know that a child is now supposed to go into Grade 1. We shall stop what we used to do, in the past, when we had to do this (Hon. Muntanga made his right hand go above the head to touch his left ear). 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: If the child was able to touch the ear, they would say he has grown enough to start school. I remember, in here, someone was told to stand up when he was actually standing.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: I think we will save people from such embarrassments. If someone is short, when he is old, we will know because we will know exactly when he was born. 

Sir, there are also people who have changed their years of birth. They say that they were born in nineteen-something, but when confronted, they will say they only changed it for the NRC purposes. This document is very important for the accuracy of the date of birth, place of birth, and nationality. This will also provide the details of our parents. Therefore, this Motion is asking all of us to check ourselves. Do not refuse the fact that you are the father of your children. Once a woman has said you are the father, why should you to refuse?

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: I am saying so because the woman cannot just say you are the father ... 

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: … besides when you look at the child, it actually looks like you. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Therefore, a birth certificate is important. I wholesomely support this Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Now, let me guide before the hon. Member comes on the Floor. From what the two have said, it is very clear that we are supporting the Motion. Before we can conclusively say so, let me have the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs say something because the Hon. Member for Kalomo seems to have been in love with Lundazi for a reason.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Speaker, I have read through this Motion and I have also listened to the mover and, indeed, the other debaters. It gives an impression that this Government has decided that the birth certificate be a pre-requisite for obtaining the green NRC. To the contrary, this is not true. The requirements for one to obtain a green NRC, as stipulated by law, are that an applicant should be: 

(a)    a Zambian Citizen and should have attained the age of sixteen years and above;

(b)    an applicant should be represented by a guardian, who is a biological relation to the applicant.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You will miss the qualifications.

Mr D. Phiri: Sir, however, other supporting documents such as birth certificates, birth records, under-five cards and village registers may be required for determination purposes. I would also want to bring to the attention of this House that birth registration, currently, takes place at all health facilities in the country while births that occur in villages are captured when children are taken to health centres for under-five health services. The Ministry of Home Affairs works together with the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to ensure that all births are efficiently registered.

Mr Speaker, the House should also note that the issuance of birth certificates is only done in Lusaka at the Office of the Registrar-General. Therefore, the Government realises that the issuance of birth certificates is centralised and this makes it difficult for parents to obtain birth certificates for their children. In view of the above, the Government cannot, at this stage, make a birth certificate a prerequisite for obtaining an NRC. 

Sir, the Government is committed to ensuring that the public is sensitised on the importance of birth certificates. The Government will streamline the operations of the ministries involved in birth registration to ensure effective birth registration and the obtaining of birth certificates.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I still want to emphasise my earlier position that this Motion is defective, but that notwithstanding, it is my hope that the actual position will be appreciated by the movers of the Motion, and the House at large.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Legal Affairs (Mr Chilembo): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs stated what I wanted to say. I would like to confirm that this is the legal position. Clearly, there is no evidence that the Government made such a decision. 

Mr Speaker, I am of the view that before this Motion was brought to the House, there should have been some research done or documentation of some sort provided to show that there was such a decision taken. From what we have heard, however, there was no such decision. Therefore, if a decision that there must be a birth certificate as a prerequisite for issuance of an NRC was not taken, what are we debating?

Hon. Opposition members: Aah!

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, in my view, the lack of such a decision shows that this Motion is a non-starter, is still-born and a waste of time. 

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, as a Government, we appreciate the importance of the registration of births and deaths. However, this is not the manner in which a Motion should be brought to this House. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilembo: This Motion is trying to state a problem which is not a problem. 

Interruptions

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, as we heard from various speakers, at the moment, we are registering births at health centres. What is lacking is the initiative on the part of parents to take these records to the various registration offices so that their children could get birth certificates. I have found time and done this … 

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Why do you want to debate for him?

Mr Chilembo: …and all my children are registered. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, as hon. Members of Parliament, we must sensitise our constituents. The problem is that we do not sensitise the general public on the need to register their children. This information is lacking. We are climbing this tree from the top. Let us go back to our constituencies and educate our people on the need to register the births of children. The real problem was, of course, stated by Hon. Milupi who said that this Motion will not cover births at the village level. These are the areas which we should really be concentrating on. 

Mr Speaker, I have also experienced situations where when I go to the Passports Office with a birth certificate, they still ask me for an affidavit. The problem, therefore, that my brother, Hon. Muntanga, mentioned is real. This means that even when we sensitise the public, we will need to educate our officers on the fact that there is no better document than a birth certificate. An affidavit is a secondary document. In reality, therefore, we do have a big problem. We need to really sensitise the general public. As things are, …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister, who started his debate by saying that this Motion is a waste of time, in order to continue raising issues about a Motion he believes is a non-starter? Is he in order?

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister may continue, taking that point of order into account. 

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Member agrees that debating this Motion is a waste of time, I will not belabour the point any further. I further wish to thank everybody for agreeing that it is a waste of time and that the Motion should be withdrawn because it is not addressing any problem. It has not shown that, indeed, there was a decision to make a birth certificate a prerequisite to obtain an NRC. I urge hon. Members not to support this Motion unless it comes in a different form. I would like to urge the hon. Member to withdraw this Motion forthwith.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, I will try to be brief in my contribution. 

Mr Speaker, I believe that nobody in this House will deny that there is a need for people in different parts of the country to obtain birth certificates. It is true that, today, for various logistical reasons, it is neither possible nor easy for people who, for instance, are born in my constituency, in various villages, on various islands, to obtain birth certificates or even register a birth. This is something we cannot deny. 

Mr Speaker, it is, however, not true that a birth certificate is a prerequisite in order to obtain an NRC. This is not what the law says. Having said this, we must accept that the situation, as it is now, must be improved. We need to ensure that all children born in this country are registered and also able to obtain birth certificates. 

Mr Speaker, one of the important issues that has been touched on by the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs and the hon. Deputy Minister of Justice is that there has not been much sensitisation of our population, especially in rural areas, on the importance of having all births and deaths registered. I would even go as far as saying that it should be one of the subjects taught in Civics, at the primary level, in an effort to sensitise children and their parents of the importance and necessity to register births. How this can be done is something we need look at. 

We might have rural health centres in some villages, but some of these centres are far-flung. One may have to go ten or twenty kilometres before reaching a health centre. The long distances make it difficult for our people to register births. It may even be necessary to empower headmasters and headmistresses at schools so that when there is a birth, they register the details and transfer them, through the rural health centre system, to the District Registrar. I think that this is quite important. 

Mr Speaker, there is too much political mudslinging of where one was born and from whom. 

Laughter 

Dr Machungwa: We need to have these issues resolved, especially in the political arena. However, even without this, it is extremely important that something is done to ensure that all the children born in this country, including foreigners, are registered. The current situation, definitely, leaves much room for improvement. This is my contribution.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to support the Motion. 

Mr Speaker, in supporting this Motion, contrary to what the Government is saying about it being a waste of time, we need to look at what it is trying to address. In my view, data capturing is more important. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Sense. 

Mr Lumba: We need to capture data that will help us plan for our country. When we get this information, we need to look at how it will help us in future. This is what is important. I know that there are other issues, but we cannot throw away the whole Motion. 

Mr Chilembo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, is it in order for us to continue debating this Motion when it has been generally agreed and established and it is a well-known fact that it is not a legal requirement that a birth certificate be produced before one can get an NRC? The legal provisions were ably quoted by the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs. Given that position, is it in order for us to continue debating on a wrong premise that it is prerequisite for one to get an NRC when the legal provisions have been ably quoted? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I see a point in what we have discussed. The issue is that the Motion is still being discussed. Therefore, to answer your point of order, hon. Minister, it is in order for us to debate despite the fact that we seem to be agreeing, somehow. I could only stop the debate if, for example, the mover decided to withdraw the Motion but, up to now, that is her decision. Therefore, it is in order for us to continue to debate it.

Can the hon. Member for Solwezi Central, please, continue?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Long live, Mr Speaker!

Mr Lumba: Mr Speaker, the gist of this Motion is to have a registration desk at each health centre. That is important. We should not throw away that aspect. We want to have a registration desk at the point of birth because it will help. If you look at the distances some people have to travel to have their children registered or obtain a birth certificate, it is pathetic. The important argument is to have a desk at that point which will help capture the data on the child. If that is made available, it will help us to know how many children are being born in a certain area. It will also help us to know where or in which district we have more children so that we start planning for future developments such as schools. It will also help us to know where most of the street children are coming from. These are some of the factors that will help us if a child is registered at the point of birth. Therefore, if we leave it open, we will have a problem.

Sir, most of the places and constituencies we are representing do not have such facilities to register. If this Motion is supported, it will help our colleagues on your right to plan properly in future. Therefore, they cannot just throw away something which is good such as this Motion. We should not look at issues in terms of our political orientation. We should look at what a particular issue may address, in future, and the problems that we have which can be sorted out. This is a very small aspect which I am trying to add to the debate which is very progressive. We are all saying that there should be a desk to register a birth at a health centre. Therefore, let us support the Motion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, it is important that we should have birth certificates for our children, but the difficulty that we have with this Motion is that it is giving an assumption that the Government has made a birth certificate a prerequisite for one to obtain an NRC. The only argument that we have is that the Government has not given this position. Right now, we have issued close to 900,000 NRCs. I asked my officers how many parents were able to produce birth certificates and I was told that less than twenty managed to do so. Despite that, we still issued NRCs. In other words, a birth certificate is not a condition for somebody to get an NRC. The importance of a birth certificate is agreed. We have agreed that it is important that our children have birth certificates, but is it a pre-requisite for somebody to get an NRC? No! Therefore, the Motion is defective. That is the argument that everybody is trying to bring out.

I would like to agree with the observations made by Hon. Muntanga that we need to educate our people on the importance of obtaining birth certificates. 

Sir, in most cases, when a child is born, they are given a birth record and, based on that record, we have, at least, 90 per cent of information on the child who is born because we have a co-ordinated approach with the Ministry of Health to know how many children are born throughout the country. It is also important that children get birth certificates eventually. Therefore, the argument is not the importance of the birth certificate, but what it is a pre-requisite for. The document is, definitely, important. We need it and we need the children to have these certificates.

Mr Speaker, it is a well-intended Motion but, somehow, the manner in which it has been presented is defective.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let me guide, if at all my guidance can be of help. From what has been said, so far, two points seem to come out clearly in as far as I am concerned. Firstly, it is important that children who are born have birth certificates. That is not in contention and that is where I can see a problem. The other issue is that having a birth certificate is not a prerequisite for obtaining an NRC. At the moment, even without a birth certificate, one can get an NRC. In view of these observations, I would like to seek the position of the mover of the Motion. Could I get the views of the mover of the Motion?

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, the main aim of moving this Motion was to urge the Government to introduce desks at all health centres to issue birth certificates. Like one hon. Member mentioned, death certificates are given when somebody dies in a hospital, why can we not give a birth certificate to a child that is born in a hospital set up? In that way, I agree with them and I agree that this is the way the Motion should go.

Mr Speaker, having said that, I would like to take this opportunity to thank those who have debated the Motion and those who have debated silently, like Hon. Mulongoti.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: My understanding from the mover of the Motion is that she has withdrawn it.

Ms Kapata: Sir, I would like it to be amended.

The Deputy Chairperson: What is that amendment?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I would like to say that I am not withdrawing the Motion, but I would like it to come with amendments. I would like to remove the part that states “to make a birth certificate a pre-requisite to get an NRC” and replace it with urging this Government to make sure that desks are introduced in all health centres so that children being born can be given birth certificates.

I thank you, Sir

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! If we got the amendment right, the mover is saying that the Motion should now read that “birth registration desks be established at all health centres.”

Hon. Government Members: They are already there!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! With that amendment, the rules require us to take a vote on it to indicate whether we are agreed or not on the amendment.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Where is the amendment!

The Deputy Chairperson: I will read it because the rules allow it. The amendment reads as follows:

    “That, in view of the Government’s decision …”

Can you put it in writing?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! This is now the amendment:

“That, this House urges the Government to introduce birth registration desks at all health facilities.”

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Question that the Motion be amended to read “that this House urges the Government to introduce birth registration desks at all health facilities” put.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Now I will call upon the mover of the Motion to debate the amended Motion.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon. Members for supporting this Motion and would like to tell the Government that this is a noble cause and that we are not doing it for personal gain. We only want the children’s data to be captured at birth so that it is easier to identify a child even in the event that the parents die.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I would like to thank all hon. Members for the support.

Mrs Phiri: Quality!

Mr V. Mwale: Ma birth records yaliko kudala. Nivichiani ivo uleta!

Hon. Government Members called for a division.

Question that, this House urges the Government to introduce birth registration desks at all health facilities put and the House voted.

Ayes – 40

Mr C. B. K. Banda
Mr E. M. Banda
Mr Col. Chanda
Mr Chazangwe
Mr Chisala
Mr Chitonge
Mr Chota
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imbwae
Mr Kakoma
Ms Kapata
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kasoka
Mr Katuka
Mr Lumba
Dr Machungwa
Mr Malama
Mr Mooya
Mr Mukanga
Mr L. J. Mulenga
Mr Muntanga
Mrs Phiri
Mr Mushili
Mr Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwansa
Mr Mweemba
Mr Mwenya
Mr D. Mwila
Mr L. J. Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Nsanda
Mr Ntundu
Mr Nyirenda
Mr Sikota
Mr Simuusa
Mr Sing’ombe
Mr Syakalima

Noes - 54

Mr Akakandelwa
Mr Band I.
Mr Chella
Mr Chibamba
Mr Chilembo
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Ms Cifire
Mr Imasiku
Mr Kakusa
Mr C. M. Kapwepwe
Mr Kasongo
Dr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Ms Lundwe
Mr Mabenga
Mr Machila
Mr Magande
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Misapa
Mr Mubika
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulongoti
Mr Mulyata
Mr Munaile
Dr Musonda
Mr Musosha
Mr Mutati
Mr Mwaanga
Mr V. Mwale
Mr M. B. Mwale
Mr Mwangala
Dr Mwansa
Mr Mwapela
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Professor Phiri
Reverend Sampa-Bredt 
Mr Shawa
Mr Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simama
Mr Simbao
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Taima

Abstentions – (03)

Mr Chanda
Mrs Masebo
Mr Munkombwe

Question accordingly negatived.

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1746 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 4th March, 2010.

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