DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 10th March, 2010

The House met at 1430 hours

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER
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ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES.

CONCLUSION OF THE COMMEMORATION OF COMMONWEALTH DAY ACTIVITIES

The Deputy Chairperson: Today, Wednesday, 10th March, 2010, marks the conclusion of the commemoration of the Commonwealth Day Activities I announced on Friday, 5th March, 2010. As a follow-up to the announcement I made, I wish to inform the House that in the Speaker’s Gallery, are the eighteen pupils who were drown from the schools in the provinces to participate in the commemoration. We welcome them in our midst.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

MOBILE REGISTRATION EXERCISE AND ISSUANCE OF THE GREEN NATIONAL REGISTRATION CARDS

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, there have been a lot of queries on issues relating to the way the Mobile Registration Exercise is being conducted and that a number of people who are eligible to acquire Green National Registration Cards (NRCs) have not been captured. 

Sir, I wish to inform this august House that the Ministry of Home Affairs, through the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship, undertakes issuance of the Green NRCs at two levels in all the seventy-two districts of the country. The first level is the continuous issuance of the NRCs while the second is the Mobile Registration Exercise. This issuance of NRCs is primarily for identity of citizenship. However, an NRC is also used to access several services which include, among others, accessing the bank, hospitals, obtaining driving licences as well as registering as a voter.

Mr Speaker, it is, however, wrongly portrayed that the mobile issuance of Green NRCs is tied to the electoral process only. Despite an NRC being a prerequisite for one to register as a voter, it should be noted that to register as a voter, one needs, also, to be a Zambian citizen, who should have attained the age of eighteen years and above. Meanwhile, the issuance of the Green NRCs is for those that have attained the age of sixteen years and above. We also issue NRCs to foreign residents residing in the country for a period exceeding three months although their colours and codes are different for ease of identification.

Mr Speaker, the NRC is a security document which cannot be issued without ascertaining that the person so issued duly qualifies for it. In order to ensure that unqualified people do not obtain it, the applicant must be accompanied by a deponent and present himself before a Registration Officer by providing any of the following documents:

(i)    The Green NRC of either parent or guardian. This is the foremost or primary requirement;

(ii)    The Birth Record. In villages where people may not have the above record, a Village Register is used to confirm the birth of the applicant and parentage; or

(iii)    The Birth Certificate.

Mr Speaker, the department conducts Mobile Registration Exercises in order to compliment the work undertaken by the District Registration Offices. Previously, this exercise was conducted six months or a year before presidential and general elections. 

Mr Speaker, the current Mobile Registration Exercise commenced two years before the presidential and general elections. This exercise started with the North-Western, Western and Eastern provinces as Phase I. This was followed by the Southern, Central and Northern provinces. The third and final phase is expected to start by 1st April, 2010, to cover the remaining provinces namely the Lusaka, Copperbelt and Luapula provinces. These exercises take ninety days. The number of people registered in these provinces, so far, is as follows:

Province    Target        Registered

North-Western     100,000        83,541

Western         80,000         81,293

Eastern         120,000         155,183

Southern     100,000        95,200    

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mangani:

 Central         85,000         123,344

Northern     150,000         176,542

Grand Total    645,000        725,103

Mr Speaker, the exercise has been successful as the target set was met in most provinces and the department managed to send officers to the remotest areas in the country. The exercise, though successful, was not without challenges. Some of the challenges were:

(i)    poor road network in most remote areas leading to high maintenance costs for equipment and motor vehicles;

(ii)    the vastness of the country resulting into long distances to be covered between villages. In these remote areas, the population density in certain areas is very low;

(iii)    difficulties in accessing certain areas particularly in the North-Western and Western provinces due to being water logged for most of the year. For example, Liuwa and Imusho in the Western Province and part of Northern Province such as Nabwalya which is mountainous proved difficult to access. 

Mr Speaker, there were incidents where undue pressure was exerted on registration officers when some dignitaries or politicians ferried people and insisted that they be issued with NRCs without proper scrutiny of the applicant’s parentage or place of birth. In this exercise, the role of politicians was to help in the sensitisation by ensuring that the exercise was being undertaken properly by informing other stakeholders such as village headmen, chiefs, church leaders and other leaders in the community of the exercise. 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to thank the churches, the Ministry of Education for providing accommodation at their schools, traditional leaders and headmen, office of the district commissioner and hon. Members of Parliament, for the sensitisation and logistical support services rendered for the exercise to achieve its intended goal. Having realised that we did not cover some of the targeted areas due to the challenges mentioned above, I wish to state that at the end of phase III of the mobile registration, an evaluation of the whole exercise will be undertaken to revisit some areas which may not have been adequately covered at the time the exercise was conducted and also work on improving performance for the future.
 
Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, the target for the Southern Province was 100,000. However, only 95,000 were registered. I would like to know why this was so. Furthermore, why can areas like the Southern Province not be revisited before the commencement of the third phase?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, two main factors presented themselves in the Southern Province. The first one was that when we announced phase I of the mobile registration exercise, fortunately, people in the province responded very well by rushing to get NRCs at our district offices which were still open. It is the only province that achieved more in terms of registering at district level even without the mobile registration exercise. Therefore, although the mobile registration captured 95,000, most of the people had already collected their NRCs at district centres.

However, as I said earlier, some of the areas will be revisited and we will still look at some of the challenges we faced in the first and second phases so that we capture people who may not have been captured at the time. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, would it be acceptable for certain villages which were not covered to organise some funds and invite the district registration officers to capture them? 

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, although the idea is attractive, it may discourage a lot of other people who may not have the resources to do so. It is the responsibility of the Government to register its citizens. I have already said that we will revisit areas that were omitted and we will count on your support once we do so.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, one of the challenges that we have is the people who have lost their NRCs either by fire or otherwise. When these people go to have their NRCs replaced, they are told to bring a police report. Now that this exercise is being carried out by the Ministry of Home Affairs, is it possible for each team to have a police officer with all the necessary documents present so that people who have lost their NRCs are given reports right there and then when they go to get their NRCs?
 
Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, the NRC may look like a simple document, but some people who may not be citizens of this country are, actually, desperately looking forward to possess one. Therefore, if an NRC has been lost, we would love that somebody goes to the police station to make sure that thorough investigations are done rather than hurriedly issuing a paper at a registration centre, possibly by an officer who may not be even know the applicant. A police station, as a catchment area, may have an idea of a person who has presented himself or herself. Therefore, we would love that most of our people get these documents or certificates from our police officers well in advance before our people visit them. It will help quite a lot. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, concerning the numbers of the six provinces that were announced by the hon. Minister, I would like to state that the Western Province, which is vast, is not the least populated. Would the hon. Minister then explain why it was given the least target and why the least number of those registered was achieved? 

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, our target for the Western Province was 80,000 and we registered 81,293. These targets are, actually, obtained from our provincial registration offices that work hand in hand with our statistics office to give us an indication of how many people have attained the age of sixteen and require NRCs. Therefore, these are not figures that we just dream of here in Lusaka, but figures that are obtained from provinces, based on the statistical information that we have.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, the scenario in Lusaka is that if a parent takes three children from one family for registration, they are turned away allowing only one child to be registered and encouraging parents to go back the following day. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if this scenario is obtaining in other areas. For example, if one resides in Kakwiya Village, Chief Nyampande, how many times are they expected to go back to the Boma to get the NRCs?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, although we have not reached Lusaka yet, I will indicate that unless the parent proves that the children are triplicates, …

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: Triplets!

Mr Mangani: …born on the same day, they will not be issued with NRCs. However, if there are three children presented at the same time, we must convince the officers why the first and the second child were not registered when they reached sixteen years. It is not possible that all of them can be sixteen years if they are not triplets. We should, therefore, have enough proof before issuing an NRC. We have to verify the details before we issue an NRC.  

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the targets for the remaining three provinces are. 

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I will announce phase III at an appropriate time and give the targets then. At the moment, I am looking at what we have done so far. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, it is a well known fact that it is only an immigration officer who can ascertain the nationality of an individual. May I know whether immigration officers were attached to this mobile registration to assist the officers ascertain the nationalities of those who were obtaining NRCs?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, immigration officers are the only ones who can ascertain the citizenship of a person. It is almost impossible to draw all immigration officers to this exercise. If we have a special case that requires some investigations, immigration officers are brought in to carry out the investigation. Some of the people obtaining NRCs, through dubious means, or parents cheating that a child who is not theirs is theirs, have been arrested because our officers have managed to investigate the matters and we will take them to the courts of law.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister regarding the challenge of producing a birth certificate that parents are facing. Is there anything that they can do, in the absence of birth certificates, because I can imagine that not so many parents have these documents? 

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, in my ministerial statement, I indicated a number of documents that we need, but the most important document of all is the NRC of the parent or guardian. This may either be the father’s or mother’s, but the next part requires confirmation of the date of birth and we would ask for a birth record because most of the parents in the villages may not remember, but, at least, with a birth record, which is issued at the clinics, they will be able to know the date the child was born. If all these are not there, at least, the village headman should indicate the date of birth and ascertain the child’s parents. Therefore, the birth certificate is mostly used in towns. As I said earlier on, our people in the villages may not even have a birth certificate, but we depend on the other records which are very important.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister alluded to the fact that the mobile NRC issuance will be in the province for ninety days. I would like to cite the Lusaka Province which has twelve constituencies and if we divide ninety days by twelve, roughly, it gives us something like seven days. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the seven days are enough for people to get NRCs, considering that the urban constituencies in Lusaka are over populated, particularly Mandevu, which is the biggest constituency, not by size, but by population.

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, it s true that Lusaka has got many constituencies, but you should also look at other provinces such as the Northern Province which has twenty-one constituencies. We had to come up with a format that is uniform so that other people are not disadvantaged. I would like to agree with the hon. Member that the population is quite high in Lusaka and on the Copperbelt. The only solution that we can offer is to re-enforce the exercise in terms of personnel so that we capture as many people as possible.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to reflect over the issue of lost registration cards. To expect villagers to report to the police, with a scanty police service, which does not cover our population, may be expecting too much from them. Is it possible that we can create a situation where village headmen can keep a record of lost NRCs to enable villagers to report to their village headmen for registration of missing NRCs so that such a register is also admissible when issuing these cards because I cannot see how we can insist on police reporting

 Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, in fact, the issue of a police report in the villages has worked better than in towns. Once our people in the villages lose their NRCs, they struggle hard to get a police report. In situations where we are all convinced that the village headman or the chief is able to confirm that one may have lost an NRC and then, that person produces either a voter’s card or any document where the number is, we are able to consider that as a special case.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Speaker, there are certain areas in Malole Constituency which are very far from Mungwi District and have people who are over thirty years, but have no NRCs. This time around, they were turned away from obtaining NRCs. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the Government is doing to ensure that these people also get NRCs because they are also Zambians?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, the issuance has not started today. We, therefore, expect a responsible Zambian to have got his or her NRC when he or she was, at least, sixteen to twenty years old. Therefore, to extend it to thirty years, there has to be an investigation and we must be convinced of the reason that person failed to get an NRC at the right age. Otherwise, these are the fellows who could have come from somewhere and are trying to negotiate for NRCs.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the record of 14 per cent above target is not necessarily a measure of efficiency because it could also be a measure of low targeting. Given that background, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether in view of the fact that this is a census year, he will consider conducting another round of mobile registration exercise to capture those who will have been captured through the census. Could the hon. Minister give an assurance to us that the third phase of the mobile exercise will be concluded before the registration of voters?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I have indicated that we started this exercise two years before the general elections. This is an indication that there will be enough time to re-visit certain areas that will feel have got challenges. If we get details from the Central Statistical Office (CSO), which are different from what we have now, it is a matter that we can consider at an appropriate time. This is why I have said that we are likely to sit down and re-evaluate the whole exercise and programme for the future.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Mr Speaker, it is gratifying to note that this exercise was successful.

Interruptions

Mr Msichili: May I know why the Government exceeded the numbers that they had projected. I would also like to find out from the hon. Minister how much money has been spent on this exercise so far.

 Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, in the first phase, we spent K15 billion, in the second phase, we spent K22 billion and we anticipate to spend K24 billion in the third phase.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, this ministerial statement has been issued because of the question that I had asked the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. Could the hon. Minister assure the people of Mfuwe that come 1st April, his ministry will send officers to go and finish the exercise? 

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I know that there were challenges in your area, but I would like to ensure that I visit other areas as well. If we are going to spend all the time in your constituency, what happens to Luangwa? Our intention is to have the third phase and give an opportunity to other provinces in the third phase and once we have finished, we will visit areas, like your constituency, where there are complaints.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has announced that it will start registration on 1st June, 2010 and the National Registration Office is saying that it will start on 1st April, meaning that they will only cover the Luapula, Copperbelt and Lusaka provinces for two months. Does it mean that the ECZ will change the date to 1st July, 2010?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, in my statement, I indicated that the people who are supposed to register as voters should attain the age of eighteen, but NRCs are being given to people who have attained the age of sixteen.

Mr Speaker, it should be made clear that the voters will not only be the people we are registering now. Zambia has over seven million people with NRCs. What we are doing now is to complement by capturing some of the people who have not been captured for some reason. The seven million people will still register and that will not create any problems.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has told us that to get an NRC, you need to be taken there by one or both parents with green NRCs and should have a birth record or be in the village register. Of late, we have had a lot of refugees coming from Malawi who have received both NRCs and voter’s cards.

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, is Hon. Nsanda in order to allege that refugees from Malawi have entered Zambia without laying evidence on the Table? Is he in order?

Hon. PF Members: William Banda!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Will the hon. Member continue with his question.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: Mr Speaker, my evidence is that it is William Banda who has received …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You should withdraw that because we cannot be mentioning names of people who are not here. Can you withdraw that and continue with your question.

Mr Nsanda: Mr Speaker, I withdraw it, but I was disturbed by the hon. Minister.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not qualify your withdrawal. Just do it and continue with your question. I would like to know how these people get their documents.
Interruptions

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, the question the hon. Member raised is important although he presented it in a malicious manner. The border areas pose a lot of challenges because the people there share the language, culture and everything else and this is why we are very strict on ensuring that only eligible Zambians are registered. 

Mr Speaker, we would count on you, as hon. Member, to sensitise our chiefs not to present foreigners to get NRCs.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, what we have been hunting for this side and have not received is an assurance that Phase III, covering the Lusaka City and Province, the Copperbelt and Luapula provinces, will be completed before the voters registration begins. If not, what assurance can we have in its place?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I have made it clear that we should not tie the registration of our citizens to the votes.

Interruptions

Mr Mangani: It looks like you do not want me to answer the question.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let him answer that question. 

Mr Mangani: I was saying that we should not tie the registration of our citizens to the votes. Although it is important, the responsibility of the Government is to register all citizens of this country as long as they have attained the right age. The registration of the voting exercise is a separate issue which is dependant on the voting age, which is eighteen. We would expect that anybody responsible, after attaining the age of sixteen, would have gone to get an NRC instead of just waiting for the mobile one. All our district offices are open and those without NRCs should go and get them now so that they do not get disadvantaged at the time of registration of voters.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, in the Southern Province, the targeted number was 100,000, but only 95,000 …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! What is that bilateral discussion between the hon. Member for Lusaka Central, Dr Scott and the hon. Member for Roan, Mr Kambwili? I do not know whom they are trying to talk to there. It is not right to do that. Let the hon. Member on the Floor speak.

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Speaker, I was saying that the targeted number for the Southern Province was 100,000 and only 95,000 people were registered. Could the hon. Minister confirm that this less number was due to the fact that the officers who were employed were junior and thus they turned away a lot of people who wanted to be registered?

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

PROVISION OF MOTOR VEHICLE TO MWINILUNGA POLICE STATION

368. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when the ministry would provide Mwinilunga Police Station with a motor vehicle for operations.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Mwinilunga Police Station has a Nissan Vanette which is broken down and requires to be worked on. In the meantime, the Inspector General of Police has identified one motor vehicle which will be sent to Mwinilunga soon.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that allowing the rural and border police station at Mwinilunga to stay without transport for close to two years now is compromising the security of the nation and the people of Mwinilunga at large?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, we have had a lot of challenges in terms of transport, but the hon. Member should appreciate that we are sending a vehicle there. Instead of complaining, he should commend the ministry for sending a vehicle there.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to assure the House that the police are not only dealing with security issues.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I can hardly hear the question. Let us be orderly.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: I hope now you will be able to hear. 

Border posts are very critical when it comes to revenue collection. To have only one limping vehicle at a border post means you are making the whole country porous and we are loosing a lot of revenue arising from that inadequacy. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what he is doing about this as there are a lot of vehicles at the headquarters. Why can he not deploy one to the border with immediate effect?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I am responding to a question regarding Mwinilunga. I do not know how the issue of the border arises. I have said yes, we recognise the problem of transport in Mwinilunga and we are sending a vehicle there. If the question relates to the border, possibly, you can ask another question along those lines.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if it is possible for him to inform this House the number of police stations which are without vehicles because it is not just Mwinilunga that has been affected.

The Deputy Chairperson: That question is not relevant to the question under discussion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, obviously, the plight of Mwinilunga highlights the difficulties rural constituencies and police posts have. Is the hon. Minister considering coming up with some measures of ensuring that there is transport at all rural police stations in the future.

The Deputy Chairperson: That is a clever way of asking a question that is not relevant to the question.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I just want to find out what type of vehicle the hon. Minister is going to send to Mwinilunga Police Station, considering that this Government has a tendency of buying Chinese vehicles which have no recognised makes.

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, we are sending a 4 X 4 Toyota Hilux.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, since the vehicle has been identified by the Inspector-General of Police, why has it not been sent to Mwinilunga?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I have indicated on the Floor of the House that we will be sending the vehicle and that is enough assurance.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

TERMINAL BENEFITS FOR FORMER MECHANICAL SERVICES DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEES IN LUAPULA PROVINCE

369. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a)    when the Government would pay terminal benefits to former Mechanical Services Department (MSD) employees in Luapula Province, which was abolished in 1990;

(b)    how many employees were affected; and 

(c)    how much money was owed to the employees of MSD in Luapula Province.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Kalila): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Works and Supply is unable to indicate when all the former MSD employees will be paid. Some Lusaka-based former employees …

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: We are consulting too loudly.

Dr Kalila: … who sued the Government and were awarded payment by the Supreme Court are disputing the judgement. This did not include former employees from Luapula. The Ministry of Justice is currently handling this matter.

Mr Speaker, the number of affected employees in the Luapula Province is sixty.

Mr Speaker, we are unable to indicate how much money the former MSD employees from Luapula are owed because the matter is in court.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I have raised this question because I want to take this information to the affected people. The hon. Minister is aware of this problem because it has been there for more than twenty years now? Therefore, could the hon. Minister state when the people are going to be paid their money? In addition, is the interest going to be paid also?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, this problem has been with us for quite sometime and there have been disputes at all levels. This is why it has ended up in court. Ultimately, the same people who took the matter to court turned round and claimed that the lawyers who represented them got into a consent judgement without their knowledge. So, they disputed all that was decided and the matter started all over again. Therefore, much as we would like to do something about it, that is not possible. Once the matter goes to court, we just have to wait. If they engaged a lawyer and later turned around and claimed that the judgement that was obtained was not to their consent, it becomes a problem. So, we just have to wait until a decision is made.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, it is the Lusaka employees who took the matter to court and not the Luapula employees. Can the hon. Minister answer the question? 

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, this is one group of people. What is done for the people in Lusaka will have to be done for the people of Luapula. There are no separate contracts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the Government’s policy is on how long it should take to pay the people who retire from Government service because, I think, twenty years is too long a time for people not to be paid.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, there is no specific time, more so if one disputes the amount to be paid and the number of years served. There are a lot of issues involved. As far as we are concerned, as a Government, there is no intention at all to deprive the former employees of MSD anything, but when they decided to go to court, we abided by their decision and are waiting for the outcome. In any case, it is evident that some of them were paid, but decided to take advantage of the absence of records and time lapse to reclaim after so many years. These are issues that are quite complex.

I thank you, Sir.

TENURE OF OFFICE FOR MANAGIDNG DIRECTOR OF ZNBS

370. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    what the tenure of office for the Managing Director of the Zambia National Building Society was; and 

(b)    when the contract for the current Managing Director was last renewed.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the tenure of office for the Managing Director of the Zambia National Building Society (ZNBS) is three years.

Mr Speaker, the contract was last renewed on 2nd June, 2009 to 1st June, 2012 for a term of three years.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, I would like to know if there is a limit to the tenure of office to this office in question.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, you can answer the question if you understood it. 

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, the ZNBS has a board in place which oversees the running of that institution. It is up to the board to set the parameters. As at now, there is no policy in place which limits the tenure of office for the managing director, but, of course, there is a procedure in place to evaluate the performance of the incumbent. Since there is no limit on the tenure, it is up to the board members, using good corporate governance, to ensure that if there is a need to renew the managing director’s contract, they do so and if not, they terminate it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

MPIKA DISTRICT EDUCATION BOARD SECRETARY’S OFFICE

371. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Education:

(a)    when the new District Education Board Secretary’s office in Mpika would be furnished; and

(b)    why the ministry took long to transfer teachers in rural schools from one school to another.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Taima): Mr Speaker, the construction of the new District Education Board Secretary’s (DEBS) office in Mpika has been completed and is in use. The Ministry of Education funds the district and it is up to DEBS to prioritise needs in the area.

Transfers between schools, whether rural or urban, are based on the staff establishment and payroll. Therefore, before any transfer is effected, confirmation of a vacant post on the establishment and payroll has to be made in order to avoid misplacement of teachers. This process is the key factor in the authorisation of transfers from one school to another. Authority to transfer teachers is granted by the Permanent Secretary in-charge of human resource and administration at the Ministry of Education Headquarters which must be supported by the necessary documentation relating to established and funded vacant positions.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, some teachers are overstaying at some schools and have since started brewing local beer. What is the ministry doing to stop that bad trend?

Mr Taima: Mr Speaker, although there is no relationship between brewing beer and teachers being transferred, all I can say, as a matter of emphasis, is that we do not have any difficulties in moving a teacher from one school to another, but a number of factors have to be considered before we make that decision. I elaborated this just a couple of minutes ago.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister not considering setting the period in which a teacher can be at a particular station to avoid problems?

Mr Taima: Mr Speaker, for now, the general policy, particularly for rural-based teachers, is that they must serve, at least, a minimum of two years before they can be moved to another school.

I thank you, Sir.

PRODUCTION OF SWEET POTATOES FROM 2006 TO 2008

372. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a)    what the total amount, in kilogrammes, of sweet potatoes was produced from 2006 to 2008, year by year, countrywide;

(b)    how many kilogrammes of the sweet potatoes were exported; and

(c)    how much was earned from the exports.

Interruptions

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mbewe): Mr Speaker, the following are the total amounts, in kilogrammes, of sweet potatoes estimated to have been produced from 2006 to 2008, year by year, countrywide:

Year    Amount (Kilogrammes)

2005/2006    101,282,000

2006/2007    75,664,000

2007/2008    106,521,000

2008/2009    200,450,000

Grand Total    483,917,000

In 2006 and 2007, no sweet potatoes were exported. However, in 2008, 31,380 kilogrammes of sweet potatoes were exported. Since there were no sweet potatoes exported in 2006 and 2007, no revenue was earned. However, in 2008, K13,286,757 (US$3,584) was earned from sweet potato exports.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, in both America and Europe, every major supermarket you enter has sweet potatoes. Why is the Government not exploring this market when sweet potatoes are the easiest cash crop to grow? Why are we failing to export sweet potatoes when we have the best breed called Chingovo?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, our production rate of this crop is equal to that of consumption at the moment.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Therefore, it is quite difficult for us to start exporting when the local market is not satisfied.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, according to the hon. Minister, production of sweet potatoes is equal to consumption locally. Therefore, what is the Government doing to ensure that farmers are encouraged to grow more sweet potatoes in order to have a lot of crops to export?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, my ministry is very serious about research to find new breeds of sweet potatoes that can yield more and our farmers are alert to start planting a new variety with a good yield. So, when such a variety is found, we are going to see our farmers producing a lot of sweet potatoes, then we can consider the hon. Member’s suggestion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, in the advent of food processing, which is developing in our country, I wish to learn from the hon. Minister if he is aware of any industry in Zambia which is currently processing sweet potatoes.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the processing of sweet potatoes is done within the country, but at a very small scale.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that contrary to the information that he has imparted, there is a very large booming sweet potato export industry into Botswana, Namibia and even as far as Johannesburg. The Chingovo and Kapiri (the red one) varieties are exported in thirty-tonne trucks of thousands of kilogrammes at a time.

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your question?

Dr Scott: Is he aware of this or is his ministry failing to keep records?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, in line with the ministry’s policy, we get information from all parts of the country through our district offices every Tuesday. Now, if there is such information as mentioned by the hon. Member, we are not aware of it.

I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, in response to the question raised by the hon. Member for Kantanshi, my good friend the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives said that his Government had a programme to promote and increase the production of sweet potatoes.

Mr Speaker, Government programmes are not rhetorical ones, they are worked out and backed by financial allocations. I would like to find out from that hon. Minister what programme is in place and how much money has been allocated to promote the production of sweet potatoes because the only programme for farmer’s support is the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), which has to do with maize. Would he tell us what programme he has in place to promote sweet potato production?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, at the moment, the ministry is carrying out some research. It has intensified its research in order to produce sweet potatoes that will give a higher yield. 

Secondly, it is not possible to allocate a specific amount to sweet potato production and this is why we have changed the name from the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) to FISP. Therefore, we are very serious and have enough resources at the base to increase the production of sweet potatoes.

Hon. Members: Tom and Jerry! Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that when the research is done, farmers are going to be told the variety to grow. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there are plans in place to sensitise and educate farmers so that when the variety is ready, they will start growing it right away?

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Daka): Mr Speaker, I have just returned from the Zambia Seed Company (ZAMSEED) field, today, where ZAMSEED and other promoters of seed have embarked on a research programme to ensure that productivity is high in many crop fields let alone maize as well as cassava and sweet potatoes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chota: Mr Speaker, in response to the hon. Member for Nchanga’s question, the hon. Minister agreed that there is processing of sweet potatoes going on. I would like to learn from the hon. Minister the type of product that comes out of the process.

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, potatoes are processed in various forms. You can dry them up so that you can continue eating them even when they are out of season.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

PURCHASE OF LOCAL AUTHORITY EQUIPMENT

373. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing how much money was spent on the purchase of the following items for local authorities in 2008:

(i)    speed boats;

(ii)    life jackets; 

(iii)    boat engines; and

(iv)    tents.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Muchima): Mr Speaker, K1,000,000,000 was spent on the procurement of sixteen multipurpose speed boats for local authorities. The boats were distributed to each of the following councils as indicated below:

(i)    Siavonga;

(ii)    Sinazongwe;

(iii)    Gwembe;

(iv)    Chilubi;

(v)    Serenje;

(vi)    Kafue;

(vii)    Kazungula;

(viii)    Livingstone;

(ix)    Zambezi;

(x)    Mongu;

(xi)    Samfya;

(xii)    Senanga;

(xiii)    Kabompo;

(xiv)    Kalabo;

(xv)    Sesheke; and

(xvi)    Mpulungu.

Mr Speaker, the life jackets were not bought separately as these were included in the purchase price of the boats.

The ministry did not buy any engines as the boats were purchased with the engines already fixed. As regards tents, these were part of the consignment and were given to all councils that were given boats. However, Chilubi District has not yet collected its tent despite the ministry reminding it on the need to do so.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, in the first place, let me salute my colleagues who came up with the idea of purchasing those speed boats because they have alleviated the problem of transport in my constituency. However, I would also like to know who manufactured these boats.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for appreciating the need for these boats. The name of the manufacturer of the boats is not available, but the boats were bought from dealers. We did not go to an extent of finding out who manufactured these boats as what is important is that the boats were purchased.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Deputy Minister whether he is aware that the boats which the Government procured are for river terrain and not man-made lakes terrain like that of Lake Kariba which is rocky and hostile for the cheapest mild steel boat which he bought for Sinazongwe which is already defective and has been packed.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, I appreciate that query from a seasoned hon. Member of Parliament who is notorious for that matter.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Point of Order!

The Deputy Chairperson: No, I have already called for a point of order.

Hon. Minister, you cannot use that kind of language. You praise him and at the same time bite him. You shall withdraw that word and answer properly. 

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, thank you very much, I withdraw the word. He is my traditional cousin.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not qualify the Presiding Officer’s ruling.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, indeed, these boats were bought upon the requests which were made. We did not know exactly that they would be used on the lakes. If such a need has come up, they can return that small one so that the council budgets for the required boat in future and it will be considered.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister in his answer left out Itezhi-tezhi, which is completely cut off from the rest of the province and as a result needs a boat. As of now, we have to cover 2,000 kilometres to reach the provincial headquarters, Livingstone. What criterion did the hon. Minister use to selectively buy boats for certain districts and leave out other districts like Itezhi-tezhi? I want a very serious answer from the hon. Minister.

The Deputy Chairperson: This question was primarily on boats for Chilubi Island.

Mr Chota: Mr Speaker, does the hon. Minister realise that the boat given to Chilubi Island is not in good working condition because of the poor brand which was bought?

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are not aware. However, these boats are reparable. If that is the case, I think, we will contact the office and look at it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, in responding to one of the questions, the hon. Minister stated that the Government did not care about looking at the make of the boats and, indeed, that they did not know their application. May the hon. Minister confirm that, indeed, it is very bad practice by this Government to buy something which they do not know the make? How do they plan for maintenance if they do not know the make? Can the hon. Minister confirm that it is very bad planning on their part?

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. Member is more concerned about the make or boats. These boats have names of companies which made them. If there are problems, the hon. Member should let us know so that we contact the manufacturers. The boats can be repaired and I am sure …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: It is a bad practice.

Mr Muchima: It is not a bad practice. Boats are available in shops and we bought what we thought were good boats to be used at that time.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga:  Mr Speaker, do these boats have a warrant? If so, why not return them since we are failing to maintain them?

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, even if these boats had a warrant, owing to the time when they were bought, it cannot apply because we are learning of these problems today. Nobody has come to the ministry to indicate that these boats have problems. The boats, as far as we are concerned, are serviceable until such information is brought to us. The warrant can only apply if the defect is due to a manufacturing problem, but, at the moment, we have not experienced anything of that sort and we do not know exactly whether there was a warrant or not, but we bought what was available within the amounts of money which we had.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, now that the hon. Minister has learned that these boats cannot work because they have problems, what is the way forward?

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, most of the boats in most areas are working. In Kafue, the boat is even helping us to remove the weeds. In Kabompo, it is even being hired in several parts of that area unless there are some places which have not come to our attention. If that is the case, you can come to our office to discuss the issue, but out of the sixteen areas I mentioned, I think, three quarters of them are being serviced. Maybe, your council is not looking after those boats properly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that these boats were issued with a warrant. May we learn from him the period of this warrant?

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, I indicated that we did not check whether there were ...

Laughter

Mr Muchima: ... warrants or not.

Mr Kambwili: Question.

Mr Muchima: Yes. If there is a need, the hon. Member is free to come and check with us and we can be concerned if at all, out of sixteen, ten or eleven are defective. That is when we can review whether that was the case, but as far as I am concerned, to-date, I think, it is more than a year or two now and we have not had any queries regarding these boats. The ministry actually made a very good decision which it wants to extend in future.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Chilubi for asking on behalf of all the local authorities in Zambia. What criterion was used to buy boats for certain councils and leave other councils out, especially those councils that have lakes and rivers?

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, the criteria that were used in order to identify ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is answering and there is loud consultation.

You may continue, please.

Dr Kazonga: One was in terms of access to that particular area because we could not send boats where there was no water. In the country, we had to look at those areas that, for instance, get flooded. Those areas that have difficulties in having access to other areas like Chilubi and many other considerations. When we sat down, originally, we wanted to look at three councils and these were Gwembe, Sinazongwe and Siavonga. However, the Government knew the total picture of the nature of the problem in the whole country. We had to extend to sixteen areas, but we are not saying that these are the only ones that qualify or need boats. There are other places. Now as Government, we have said, funds being available, we shall extend this programme to other places. We are aware that there are also other needy areas that will be taken into consideration as we have resources made available to us. It is an important issue and that is why I was happy to hear the hon. Member for Chilubi, actually, acknowledging that fact.

Thank you, Sir.

MEASURES TO MITIGATE IMPACT OF FLOOD PRONE AREAS

374. Mr Mukanga (on behalf of Mr Mushili (Ndola Central) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice what measures the Disaster management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) had taken to mitigate the impact of floods in areas that were prone to perennial floods.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Sichilima): Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to brief the House on what measures the Government through the DMMU has taken to mitigate the impact of floods in areas that are prone to perennial floods. As a short term measure, the Government through the DMMU temporarily relocated the flood affected people to upper land where relief supplies such as food and non-food items have been provided for a specific period of time.

Mr Speaker, as a medium to long-term measure, the approach is to focus on disaster risk reduction which is what the Government and co-operating partners are currently advocating for. This involves the aspect of helping people in flood prone areas to relocate permanently to higher grounds. This has so far been done among communities in Kasaya Village of Kazungula District in the Southern Province. The Government, through the DMMU and the Department of Resettlement, is working with traditional leaders in Mumbwa and Shang’ombo districts on possible relocations.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members, I would like to appeal to you as representatives of the people to work closely with the Government, through the DMMU and the community leaders in the respective constituencies as well as the communities themselves, so that they see permanent relocation as a long term solution to the problems of flooding.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, what system has been put in place to ensure that the response time taken to respond to disasters is reduced whenever there is a disaster like the one we are talking about?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, recently, His Honour the Vice-President’s Office employed officers that have been dispatched to provincial centres. Previously, we only had about four officers countrywide, but, at the moment, they are in all provincial centres so that co-ordination is easily done. I am sure the hon. Member of Parliament will appreciate that, this time around, we are getting information faster than before and are responding faster than we used to in the past.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene: Mr Speaker, one of the measures the Government has always taken is to preposition food stuff such as maize and other logistics for areas that become completely impassable during the rainy season. Why has the Government not prepositioned food in these areas that are prone to floods this year?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, the correct information is that the Government was ready and did exactly what the hon. Member has said. In fact, some areas that are cut off are using the food that the Government prepositioned.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, speaking on Lusaka floods, I would like to find out from the hon. Deputy Minister what long term measures have been put in place for people that have been relocated to the Independence Stadium because Lusaka has no land.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, in the first place, in an earlier answer, I stated that we need to work hand in hand as leaders. However, with regard to the question about those that have been relocated to the Independence Stadium, I wish to inform the House and the nation at large that the President mentioned that Cabinet would seat and find a lasting solution when he toured the affected areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, with regard to what the hon. Deputy Minister has stated regarding the response time to disasters, if the DMMU is prepared to respond in accurate and good time, may I know why in Sinazongwe, it was and still is stranded because, ten days ago, the bridges collapsed and they have not even moved on site. May I know why he is misleading this august House instead of being sincere and stating that the DMMU is ill prepared to respond to disasters?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like to remind the hon. Member of Parliament that he did not to come to this House to report exactly what had happened on time because at the time he approached us, we already had more information than he did.

Ms Cifire: You see!

Mr Sichilima: As I am talking now, the correct information is that nobody from our office is stranded. As a Government, we co-ordinated the putting up of the bridges that were washed away and incorporated the Zambia Army, which has moved on site to erect the Bailey Bridge at the two positions from which Sinazongwe has been cut off.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, for his information, in case he does not know, …

Hon. Government Members: Tell him!

Mr Sichilima: … the men from this working Government are at work.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I would appreciate if the hon. Member of Parliament would acknowledge that, in the shortest possible time, we have moved ten bridges from one corner of the country to the area which he is talking about. We would like him to make recommendations on what would be the way forward because this point has been washed away several times.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, who is responsible for funding disasters related to floods in Lusaka so that we know who to turn to when such calamities occur?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank, most sincerely, the very responsible hon. Member for Chingola…

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: … for that very good and friendly question.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, he has helped me to reflect and I hope other hon. Members will take a leaf from him. I would like to state that the responsibility primarily lies with the council.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: The council needs to plan for cities and where to locate councils themselves and I know that the hon. Member of Parliament is a councillor. Therefore, when a disaster occurs, only when it gets out of hand does the Central Government, through the DMMU, come in. It is at this point when what ought to be done is verified. This means that if the local authority fails in Lusaka, the Government moves in.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, Kanyama Constituency is synonymous with flooding since time immemorial. In March, this year, Parliament appropriated K10 billion for the construction of the drainage system in Kanyama. Is the Government prudent enough to inform the House whether the release of funds for the construction of a drainage system in Kanyama in the rainy season, on 6th December, to be more specific, appropriate enough to confirm that the Government was prepared to help the people of Kanyama address the issue of floods?

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, what the hon. Member of Parliament has forgotten to add to the information he has given the nation is that Kanyama is under the Lusaka City Council (LCC) …

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: Hammer!

Mr Sichilima: … and it is run by the Patriotic Front (PF) councillors.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, on 26th September, there was a meeting where the Central Government, through the Ministry of Works and Supply and officers from His Honour the Vice-President’s Office, advised this council, which has failed Kanyama, …

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: … to handover the works of Kanyama to it, but they turned down the offer.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, they were allowed to award contracts at that particular time, but all that while, it took them upto December to access K10 billion.

Ms Cifire: Hammer, Minister!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, if this Government had agreed to release the funds and they on the other hand are prudent, they should tell the nation why they awarded the contract in the rainy season.

Ms Cifire: Hammer, Minister!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, our job was only to release the money as they requested.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, in responding to this question, the Vice-President, through his hon. Deputy Minister, has told the House that the permanent solution is to relocate people that are living in these flood prone areas.

Colonel Chanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, this is my first point of order since I came to this House. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to stand and tell the nation lies …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You know that the use of the word ‘lies’ is unparliamentary.

Colonel Chanda:  I withdraw the word ‘lies’, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in to order to mislead this House and the nation that the awarding of the contract was done by the LCC when it was done by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing? The LCC was only brought in at the last minute for the purpose of signing the contract. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! As a Presiding Officer, I would not want us to engage ourselves into dialogue. The question was asked by the hon. Member for Kanyama and the hon. Minister has answered. Therefore, in this particular case, we will have to live with that.

Can you continue hon. Member.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President has told this House that the permanent solution is to relocate the people from these flooded areas. May I find out whether the Government considers it feasible to relocate all the people from Kanyama Constituency and Zambezi West Constituency to some other areas?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, the issue is to relocate people to higher grounds. Let me also take this opportunity to remind the hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi West that the most prone flood area is, actually, on the West Bank of Zambezi. As a responsible leader, if he goes to the constituency regularly, he needs to work with the chiefs and the people of that area. He should discuss how instead of people being on the west bank, they can go to the other side of the bank where it is higher. If he grew up in Zambezi and he has just come into Lusaka, he should know that …

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: …there are high and low areas even in Lusaka. In order to help the hon. Member of Parliament understand and appreciate, I would like to say that these unplanned settlements which were supervised by the local authority, the LCC, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: have seen the building of wall fences on drainages that used to drain water from these places to the lower sides of the Kafue and Mwembeshi rivers hence the building up of water levels. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, the Hon. Minister stated that the relocation of people is a permanent solution.  Therefore, what will happen to flood victims for Kanyama and Misisi Compounds that you have relocated to the Independence Stadium? Are you going to allow them go back to Kanyama and Misisi or have they been permanently relocated?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, flooding, relocation and other options are complex issues. That is why His Excellency the President said this matter would be tabled before Cabinet.

Mr Speaker, there are various options which are to be considered in dealing with the problem of flooding. One of the options is the relocation and resettlement of people as a long term strategy. This can be applied taking into consideration the situation at hand in respect of the East and West Bank issues. We also have to take into account cultural considerations and traditional aspects such as the Kuomboka Ceremony of the Western Province, which I have been to and would not like to see lost.

Mr Speaker, we also have to sensitise people to move because this aspect of flooding is becoming a yearly occurrence. We have to look at the issues of climate change. We do watch television and we know that during certain seasons, there are no roads in other places. People have to use boats and other things. You will find streams and vehicles cannot move. 

Sir, in as far as our situation is concerned, apart from resettlement, we have to look at the issue of providing drainage systems. For example, there is a master plan on how we should address the issue of drainage in Lusaka. We can do a major drainage system that can drain water into the Ngwerere River. In other towns and districts, that may not be the case. We have to study. So, the issue of planning is very important. In other areas, our citizens are not respecting planning laws. For example, people are building houses on ponds and drainage systems. These are some of the issues which we have to considered.

Sir, there is a question of garbage disposal. As hon. Members of Parliament, we need to get involved. Drainage systems are being clogged up with garbage and you will find that the water cannot flow. You will find that there is quarrying going on in almost all the districts and some people build houses in areas which have been quarried. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are not listening.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, Councils should also prioritise expenditure towards disaster risk reduction. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing gave us a break down of how the LCC has been using money from rates. The money is used by the council for things like salaries and other internal matters such as paying councillors and hon. Members of Parliament’s allowances. 

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Now, how can we fight floods if we are going to use money in this manner?

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, this may be the case even for other towns like Kitwe and Ndola which are not being properly run.

Mr Beene: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Beene: Mr Speaker, as you are aware, I am one person who does not rise on points of order. Therefore, is His Honour the Vice-President in order to mention that he is going to move people from lower grounds to the upper grounds without telling us where people such as the Litunga will be relocated to?

Interruptions

Mr Beene:  I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! His Honour, the Vice-President may continue, taking into account that point of order. 

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I would like to advise hon. Members of Parliament to listen when we are giving answers. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I talked about cultural practices and aspects. We have to be sensitive. The Kuomboka Ceremony is an international ceremony which brings tourists to this country. We, therefore, have to be sensitive and promote our culture. We respect tradition. We do not insult chiefs. 

Laughter 

Hon. MMD Member: Given Lubinda!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, Japan International Co-operation Agency (JICA) has done a comprehensive urban development plan for the LCC, whose launch I attended. We also have plans on how to fight floods. I know that the LCC is a multi-billion kwacha council, with a very big budget which can help in fighting floods and ensuring that there is proper planning in our country. We can also deal with disease outbreaks if we do proper planning.

Mr Speaker, Lusaka is on an impervious rock. There are some areas that do not flood, but most of the flood-prone areas, where I have been, are on an impervious rock, resulting in water not sipping through. This is the position. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

PROMOTION OF TOURISM IN LUAPULA PROVINCE

375. Mr Chimbaka (Bahati) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a)    why the Government had taken so long to open a tourism promotion office in Luapula Province; and 

(b)    why the Destination Luapula Programme, which was a marketing strategy for tourism promotion in the province, was abandoned.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Mwangala): Mr Speaker, in response to the question raised by Hon. Chimbanga, ….

Hon. Members: Aah! Obama!

Laughter

Mr Mwangala: …Chimbaka, I beg your pardon, the Tourism and Hospitality Act No. 23 of 2007, provides for the establishment …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwangala: …of Provincial Tourism Development and Co-ordinating offices. 

Mr Speaker, as the House may be aware, currently, my ministry has regional officers taking care of the tourism issues in two or three provinces. Accordingly, the following are the regional offices …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours. 

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended I had started answering the question posed by Hon. Chimbaka.

Mr Speaker, the regional Provincial Tourism Development and Co-ordinating offices are Livingstone for the Southern and Western provinces, Lusaka for the Eastern, Central and Lusaka provinces, Kasama for the Luapula and Northern provinces and Ndola for the Copperbelt and North-Western provinces.

Mr Speaker, in line with the Act, provincial offices will be established as we go on operationalising the Act. Setting up provincial offices will be gradual as was done with the current regional offices and on availability of resources. The functions of the provincial offices will, among others, be tourism and investment promotion, co-ordination of tourism-related activities, facilitation of tourism planning, management and licensing of micro and small tourism enterprises, to mention but a few. 

Mr Speaker, Destination Luapula Campaign, which is an initiative of the Luapula Provincial Administration falls within the overall programme of the development of the Northern Circuit. In the Northern Circuit Development Programme, as hon. Members may recall, the Kasama office covers both the Luapula and Northern provinces. The Government has accordingly continued to focus on the development of the Northern Circuit as a second priority tourism development area after the Kafue National Park. 

Mr Speaker, the promotion of awareness on the attractions and opportunities of the Northern Circuit is done along several strategies and focuses on specific activities. The Destination Luapula activities of 2008, which coincided with the theme “Tourism Responding to the Challenges of Climate Change” of the World Tourism Day celebrations, placed emphasis on Luapula. 

In 2009, the Government continued to market the attractions and opportunities of the Northern Circuit through investment promotion fora and local and international tourism marketing events to include the International Trade Fair and the Zambia Agricultural and Commercial Show. The only exception in 2009 is that the Government did not have an anchor activity due to budgetary constraints.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, surely, Destination Luapula was a brainchild of the Luapula Province provincial administration. Could I be made to understand specific programmes and strategies in terms of what is obtaining in the Northern Province in particular and the Luapula Province, being part of the National Circuit, that are feasible and appreciable as a strategy along the lines Destination Luapula was to enhance tourism co-ordination, promotion and marketing specifically for Luapula Province.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Mr Speaker, as the hon. Deputy Minister has said, the Luapula Province is part of the Northern Circuit. We have a programme to market the Northern Circuit within the Luapula and Northern Provincial Budgetary allocation. As the hon. Deputy Minister said in 2008, the provincial administration worked with the provincial office or the regional office on tourism development to focus on Destination Luapula. They made a media tour which highlighted the tourist sites in the Luapula Province.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, we do not have any quarrel with what both the Deputy and the hon. Ministers have said. I would like to find out why when hon. Ministers are asked questions they keep on indicating that certain action can only be taken when funds are available. When are they going to know when funds will be available?

Laughter

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, that is not a fair question. I say so because we, the Government, hon. Members of Parliament and members of the civil society, the private sector and every Zambian in this country, all agree that there is a need for us to develop economically. It is, therefore, important for hon. Members of Parliament to appreciate when the Government is doing its best to ensure that there is economic development which also helps us, as a people of Zambia, to reduce poverty.

Mr Speaker, let me tell the hon. Members of Parliament that this Government is fully aware of the constraints that the country faces. If we had enough resources, we would change the status of many of our people, most of whom live in rural areas. 

Mr Speaker, I want to make a point that our friends on your left want to create the impression that this Government takes joy in seeing people suffer. To the contrary, I would like to state that the people on your left want to rejoice and make political mileage out of the suffering of the people. 

 Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Ms Namugala: As a Government, we are responsible enough and are doing our best to ensure that we provide better livelihoods for our people. We are on their side and we take ownership. On your side, you can talk without necessarily acting.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge (Mwansabombwe): Mr Speaker, the cultural village in the Luapula Province was allocated K15 billion last year. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the construction of this cultural village will commence?

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, the development of cultural villages is the responsibility of the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. However, let me say that whenever resources are available, this Government will endeavour to provide the amenities that our people require.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

TARRING OF ROADS IN THE CENTRAL PROVINCE

376. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Works and Supply whether there were any plans to tar at least one road in Central Province each year.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Ministry of Works and Supply, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), has intentions to upgrade some roads in the Central Province to bitumen standard like in any other province.

Sir, the Ministry of Works and Supply, through the RDA, has included the 120 kilometer Landless Corner-Mumbwa Road in the 2010 Annual Work Plan for upgrading, following the completion of the feasibility studies and detailed engineering design.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

ESTABLISHMENT OF THE MINSITRY OF HEALTH

377. Mr Chitonge asked the Ministry of Health:

(a)    how many ghost workers had been removed from the ministry’s payroll since the inception of the payroll clean-up exercise to-date; and

(b)    what the actual establishment of the Ministry currently was.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Musonda): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that ghost workers are workers who leave the Government as a result of retirements, dismissals, death, resignation or absenteeism, but continue to appear on the payroll. Ghost workers also include any person receiving a salary, but not offering any service to the Government.

Laughter

Dr Musonda: Sir, from 2005 to-date, the Ministry of Health continued to terminate officers who separated due to the various reasons cited above, every month, when doing payroll inputs. From the inception of the payroll clean-up exercise, the ministry has terminated 5,013 members of staff from the payroll.

Sir, the Ministry of Health establishment is currently at 51,000.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chitonge: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has defined a ghost worker as somebody who has left his or her employment, but is still being paid. May I find out from the hon. Minister if the First Lady is being considered as one of the ghost workers in this category?

 Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I will not allow that question.

Laughter

_____{mospagebreak}

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE ZAMBIA NATIONAL BROADCASTING CORPORATION (Amendment) BILL

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, firstly, I wish to thank you for this wonderful opportunity to speak on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (Amendment) Bill that has been brought before this House for consideration.

Mr Speaker, the Government attaches great importance to the media reforms and reform processes by ensuring that the public broadcaster executes its public mandate of information, educating and entertaining. It performs its social and cultural role for the good of the public. The object of the amendment Bill on the Floor of the House is to firstly rename the Television Licence fee to “Television Levy” and, secondly, to provide for the payment of the television levy through television dealers as levy collection agents in respect of television tuners, receivers and like devices.

Our lesson from global experience with public broadcasting has revealed that the payment of licences is one of the major means of ensuring that the public broadcaster is supported to enable it discharge its functions effectively and serve the public interest adequately.

Mr Speaker, the Bill also fulfils one important and long outstanding commitment by the Government, which is the transformation of the ZNBC into a public broadcaster with an independent board. This transformation is part of the media reforms aimed at providing a conducive environment under which the media will operate. 

This is in line with the pronouncement by His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, in his Official Opening Address of the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly.

With regard to the policy for the national broadcaster, the policy environment as provided in the existing legislation allows the ZNBC to address the following amongst others:

(i)    provide varied and balanced programming;

(ii)    serve the public interest;

(iii)    offer programmes that provide information, entertainment and education;

(iv)    contribute to the development of free and informed opinions and as such constitute an important element of the democratic process;

(v)    broadcast news and current affairs which are comprehensive, unbiased and commentaries which shall be distinguished from news; and

(vi)    promote production of material  of Zambian origin.

Mr Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House that the national broadcaster had from 2003 to September, 2009 collected a total of K25.9 billion from television licences. The corporation has, therefore, been able to sustain its operations to acceptable levels. The compliance levels, however, remain low and range from 47 per cent and 52 per cent.

Mr Speaker, these resources collected by the corporation have been used for operational stabilisation, purchase of motor vehicles, payment of utility bills, acquisition of transmitters and VTR spares, computers, printers and office equipment. Other items acquired with the television licence fees include cameras, television licensing software and furniture. It is, therefore, the corporation’s and Government’s conviction that once the television dealers are involved in the collection of the licence fees now being renamed the Television Levy, the ZNBC would be able to collect more resources to support its operations.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to know that the compliance levels on the payment of Televison licence fees is presently around 52 per cent because the corporation lacks the necessary facilities such as vehicles and personnel to go round all areas where it collects the fees. The introduction of television dealers is expected to push the compliance level to 65 per cent in the first year and 70-75 per cent in the second year.

It is also envisaged that with the digital migration, the compliance levels should be closer to 100 per cent, as we shall all need to replace the current analogue television sets. It is at the point of purchase that the levy would be collected and data provided for subsequent follow-up for monthly payments. This will also guarantee the corporation with a new income stream. The House needs to appreciate the cost intensive operations of the public broadcaster, which has the most widespread infrastructure, but most of which is beyond its lifespan. To keep this infrastructure running is very costly.

Mr Speaker, given the immense role to be played by the national broadcaster, the broadening of the coverage for collection of the levy will significantly improve the operations of the corporation. The intention of these amendments is to achieve better long-term outcomes for the corporation and consequently improve governance by the national broadcaster. There is no doubt that the media landscape is undergoing a period of rapid change and that the ZNBC will play a pivotal role as we develop the broadcasting industry.

Mr Speaker, the Bill puts into perspective the payment of the television levy. I wish to state that the proposed levy in the amendment is not designed to serve as a tax to the public nor is it intended to encourage the broadcaster become dependent on the Government. What this amendment does is to clarify the role for the public broadcaster and the circumstances in which resources are to be realised to help it operate efficiently. The collection of television levies is not peculiar to this country. For instance, countries such as the United Kingdom (UK) have specific legislation in favour of a licence to be paid by the public. This has also worked well in our neighbouring countries such as Botswana and Namibia.

Mr Speaker, the collection of the levy entails the public broadcaster to set limitations on its advertisements and other forms of commercial revenue, as this is not the purpose of the public broadcaster, the levy is supposed to be collected from the public so that the broadcaster is assisted in fulfilling the social and cultural role for the public good.

Mr Speaker, in the principal Act, the appointments to the board are facilitated by an ad hoc appointments committee that recommends the names to the hon. Minister, who then forwards the names to Parliament for ratification. This process has been shortened by allowing the key institutions to submit their nominees directly to the hon. Minister. The experience from the Supreme Court judgement of March, 2007 is still fresh in our minds, where the power to appoint board members lay with the hon. Minister. The process being proposed is still transparent and the hon. Minister has no hand whatsoever with institutions named in the Act.

Mr Speaker, let me assure the House that the Government is fully conversant with the role of the national broadcaster and will, therefore, ensure it fulfils its mandate to inform, educate and entertain. 

It is, therefore, the duty of this august House to ensure that the best qualified and most experienced board members are available to meet these challenges.

Mr Speaker, in order to address transparency in the public broadcaster, the independent Broadcasting Authority Act was enacted to serve as regulator for the broadcasting industry. The purpose of this legislation is to enable an appropriate balance to be struck between the public interest in free press and the public interest to access information.

Mr Speaker, at this stage, let me assure the various stakeholders that the national broadcaster has continued to make major strides in implementing the functions prescribed by Section 7 of the 2002 (Amendment) Bill. In this regard, new transmitters were installed countrywide as part of the rural television project and a new television channel called TV2 was launched in January, 2010 while the partnership with Multi-choice has continued to grow and the ZNBC is now on the digital satellite television (DSTV) bouquet and it can now be accessed on the internet. With the measures outlined above, we are able to provide evidence that the board has been implementing the Act as enacted by this House.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, once the levy is in place, the policy intention of the Government is to set limitations on the amount of advertising that the public broadcaster can carry. This is to allow it to focus more on content and ensure that substantive airtime is not compromised. This policy will shift to leave from commercial revenue space for commercial stations.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, the measure in this Bill is to deliver on the Government’s commitments to introduce a system that will allow the broadcaster to meet some of its demands and continue providing a service to our people. It is not a mere platitude to say that a well-functioning and responsible media is a vital element in our democratic dispensation.

I, therefore, wish to urge all hon. Members of the House to support this Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, I wish to highlight a few issues contained in your Committee’s report on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (Amendment) Bill No. 6 of 2010, referred to your Committee on the 23rd January, 2010 and laid on the Table of the House on 9th March, 2010. 

Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to indicate that your Committee have a lot of reservations on certain aspects of the Bill and do not, therefore, support it in its entirety.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, as the House must be aware, the Act that this Bill is seeking to amend, the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (Amendment) Act No. 20 of 2002, has not been operationalised for almost eight years now since its enactment  …

Mr Lubinda: Shame!

Mr Kapeya: … and all we have seen is the lifting of one aspect of the Act, that is the television licence fees, now to be called a levy, being implemented.

Mr D. Mwila: Landa, mudala.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, first things should be done first. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Kapeya: What the Government should have done is to operationalise the law that was meant to make the ZNBC a truly public broadcaster …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: … before asking the public to support its operations through tax or levy as it is being called now. Out of the whole law, only one aspect of it, the television levy, has been operationalised and this is a source of worry for most Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, it is also surprising that the Bill whose objectives are to provide for the payment of a television levy and authorise dealers as collection agents in respect of television tuners, receivers and like devices, has gone further to amend and repeal Section 4, Sub-section 2 and Section 4A respectively which provide for the appointments committee and its functions.

Mr Speaker, the Supreme Court ruling of 2005, on the matter between media associations on one hand and the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services and Attorney-General on the other, which your Committee had cite of, did not include the abolition of the appointments committee.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! You right.

Mr Kapeya: The repeal of this section means that the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services will now directly appoint the nine members of the ZNBC board, without any input from the appointments committee, contrary to the spirit of the Media Reforms.

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, as a matter of fact, Zambia received accolades for passing the ZNBC (Amendment) Act of 2002 and many countries in the region used it as a model. Failing to implement such a progressive law, let alone, repealing sections of it, even before it is tested, is turning the clock of democracy backwards.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr D. Mwila: Bwekeshapo mudala!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, while agreeing that the national broadcaster should be sustained by funds from the Government through taxes, your Committee note that the public broadcaster is also involved in commercial advertising, thereby taking the market from private broadcasters who do not receive any help from the Government. Your committee, therefore, recommend that ZNBC be restricted in its involvement in commercial advertising as is the practice in countries like the UK, where the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) receives huge funding from levies and is, therefore, only allowed to advertise on a limited and specified scale.

Mr Speaker, the administration of the current television levy has been beset with a lot of problems some of which have even resulted in litigations and the proposed mechanism even poses more serious challenges.

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

I cannot hear what the hon. Member is saying. There is some loud consultation going on my left.

Mr Kapeya: Your Committee fear that unless a kind of certification is issued to citizens holding television sets and paying the levy either through utility bills or other means can be identified, they are bound to be charged twice and the means of claiming this money from the ZNBC will be too cumbersome and even costly for many Zambians, especially the people who live far away from provincial headquarters, where the ZNBC offices may be found.

Mr Speaker, finally, allow me to appeal to hon. Members to take time to read your Committee’s report for more detailed information on the issues raised therein.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Bill on the Floor. In so doing, I wish to state that I do not support the amendments as proposed by the Government for the reasons I will outline.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Kambwili: Sir, it does not make sense to amend a piece of legislation without totally operationalising it. The Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (Amendment) Bill No. 20 of 2002 has not been fully operationalised by this Government. The hon. Members on your right are only interested in collecting levy from the Zambian people without making the ZNBC a proper public broadcaster.

Sir, ZNBC is an imbalanced broadcaster in as far as broadcasting of issues in this country is concerned.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Every time you tune to the news on this station, you can even tell the sequence of the people that are going to appear on television.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: On the BBC, which is a national broadcaster, it is extremely difficult for anybody to even think of the sequence of the events on the news. In Zambia, however, one knows that it is President Rupiah Banda, the Vice-President, the First Lady, cadres and of late, street adults like Charles Chimumbwa and Mumbi Edward …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! Like I said earlier, please, let us not bring in names of people who cannot defend themselves on the Floor of the House. Let us not turn the Chamber into a political arena where we fight our battles. Those should be fought outside this House. So, hon. Member for Roan, please, can you veer off that path and continue. 

Mr Kambwili: Sir, I thank you for your guidance. All I was trying to say is that in this era, everybody who speaks for the Government is given air time on the ZNBC and anybody who speaks against the Government is not aired. Even us, as hon. Members of Parliament, when we go to the ZNBC and issue statements, the reporters will even tell us that our comments would not be aired and we have just wasted our time. There is a committee which sits at 1600 hours comprising of members from the Office of the President and officials from the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting to decide which news items are going to be aired.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, the Zambian people should not pay levies and support the ZNBC because it has now turned into a propaganda tool for the party in power.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Hon. Members on your right should realise that governments come and go. When we enact laws, we should think of the future because, tomorrow, we might be in the Opposition and the same law will visit us. Therefore, we must make laws that are balanced and fair for everybody. Even during a tour by the President, there are a lot of political parties that show up, but the only cadres who appear on the ZNBC are those from Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). Whether they are saying something sensible or not, they will be given valuable air time on the ZNBC channel. Unless this Government is ready to change and balance the coverage of ZNBC, Zambians are not ready to pay the levy.

Sir, with these few words, I thank you very much.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Before I call on the next speaker to take the Floor, let me say that I know this is a subject on which as many people as possible would like to speak. Although we are timed, this can only be possible if you make your statements brief. You do not need to hold on up to the last minute because then it means only a few people will speak. So, be mindful that we have to conclude this matter.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much and will heed your guidance to be brief. Thus, I will only spend, maybe, five minutes on the matter. Just to dovetail on Hon. Kambwili’s statement, I would like to first of all say that the Bill as moved by the hon. Minister, in a society where things are equal, would be every welcome.

However, the ZNBC has been a tool of abuse by hon. Members on your right. They have continued to abuse this facility to a point where even just the thought of Zambians contributing K3,000 per month amounts to extortion. For example, if there are 2 million subscribers, it means that Zambians are subscribing K6 billion per month to the ZNBC, which is a corporation that has been highly infiltrated by the colleagues on your right hand side.

In delivering his speech, the hon. Minister indicated that we need to support this public broadcaster and that it has to provide balanced reporting to serve public interests and develop informed choices. Against this background, I want to reemphasise the point that Hon. Kambwili put across. In my view, the hon. Minister forgot to tell this House that one of the functions of this broadcaster is to actually promote propaganda.

Mr Speaker, we have a situation whereby the powerful, those who control this institution, for instance, Mr George Kunda S.C, the Vice-President, can be given air space to disparage people and this broadcaster will not even give the people being disparaged a right to respond.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: The hon. Minister who presented this Bill knows this very well because we have discussed this matter at dialogues where I have reminded him that this country does not belong to their parents or grandparents, but to all of us.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I have always said on the Floor of the House that each time we speak to our colleagues on the right in privacy, they seem to respond very well, but the moment they stand as a collective force, hallucinations start happening …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … to a point whereby even my old man, my father’s friend, Hon. Munkombwe, who is here and can defend himself if he wishes to, can go and dovetail innuendoes, telling the people that put them into office, for instance, that there are feuds in one of the political parties. That is a shame.

Mr Speaker, the Zambian people that hon. Members on your right are governing require to be told the truth and if they are going to use the ZNBC, which has the widest outreach, in order to fool people, I want to say this to them, you can fool people, sometimes, but you cannot fool the people all the time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: They are going to meet their Waterloo with their operatives. There are certain statements that propose danger to people’s lives, including what the ZNBC is currently entertaining from the Vice-President, that gentleman seated over there.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us be humane.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is only one person presiding. We cannot all be presiding. Let us be humane and use terms that we know will be well received by the people we are referring to. 

Continue, please.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, this is a very emotive matter to me.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: There is no reason why those in the Government can deliberately put other people’s lives in danger by putting propaganda across the nation and even get orgasms in believing in their own lies. How can anybody be normal believing in their own lie?

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: I would like …

Mr Pande: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, as every hon. Member of this House would know, I rarely rise on points of order, but I feel that it is important that I raise this point of order. Is the hon. Member for Mazabuka in order to use words like orgasms when referring to the hon. Members on your right?

Mr Mwenya: He is in order!

The Deputy Chairperson: Once again, let me guide. This is, indeed, a subject that we might call emotive for lack of a better word. However, notwithstanding, the idea here is that we are trying to see if the left can convince the right and the right convince the left. Therefore, it is really a question of give and take and in any situation of this nature, you must really aim at convincing the other side humanely. The use of words like orgasm is really unacceptable if I got it right. 

The point of order raised by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is, indeed, pertinent. If you used the word ‘orgasm’, I request you to withdraw it and continue. 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, gladly I withdraw the word ‘orgasm’ and replace it with razzmatazz.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! That word is also unparliamentary, withdraw it and use a parliamentary word.

Mr Nkombo: I withdraw the word ‘razzmatazz’ and replace it with ecstatic about telling ones own lie.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: How can you get to ecstasy …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

You have been issued booklets. You know which words are unparliamentary and which ones are parliamentary. Please, this is why, sometimes, you make it difficult for a presiding officer to allow you to debate freely. My being here is to ensure that we debate this matter logically and come to a conclusion in a smooth manner. However, if you flout the Chair then you make it difficult for the Chairperson who is presiding to conduct the business of the House smoothly. If you persist, that is were I become really something else. With that advice, can we debate the issue in a convincing manner so as to convince each other. Otherwise, I have the right from you people to make a decision as I see fit.

 Can you continue, please.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the ZNBC requires to be innovative. If they want to raise money, they must find some innovation within their skills that made them get jobs in that corporation to raise money and stop extorting money from innocent citizens for the purpose of just going to aggrandise a certain group of people by what they say, by loving to hear their voices or generally, just misguiding the country to believe that our society is on fire.

There is absolutely no reason that I must stand up from my house and start concocting things in my head that are untrue and then I go to the ZNBC because I am a pay master and simply say, “Today, I wish to disparage Hon. Syakalima or hon. so and so for instance.” That gives very sad reading.

Mr Speaker in my opening remark, I said that this particular Bill, which Hon. Shikapwasha moved, will be very welcome in a balanced society where people reason at the same frequency and not where you wake up on a daily basis trying to find survival instincts of how not to leave the Government.

Mr Speaker, everything that goes up must come down. That is a basic principal of physics. Everything that goes up must come down.

Mr Mulongoti: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order. Is the hon. Member who is debating in order not to declare interest in the matter because he seems to be debating from a personal position? I seek your serious ruling.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I said this subject is very emotive and I said that for lack of a better word. My saying that was to ensure that whoever was debating should have words in which to go around certain things so that if you draw conclusions, at least, for me as presiding officer, I must see that you are drawing a conclusion, but I can also have a different conclusion. So far, in his debate, I do not want to make any inferences, he has not specifically come out to look at things in a particular context.

You are in order, continue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, sooner rather than later, somebody is going to meet their waterloo. They will reach a dead end. You can run, but you cannot hide. That is a basic principal of life. You can run, ask Hon. Dr Kalumba, he can give you testimony to the fact that you can run, but you cannot hide. There will come a time, …

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: … there shall surely come a time …

Dr Kalumba: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order, but is this hon. Member for Mazabuka, his excellency, in order to draw me in his debate, and yet he knows that I just surrendered myself?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Since he made a comment on Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba that he can run, but he can be found, I think, he is out of order because he surrendered himself.

You may continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Thank you very much. Sir, I just want to reemphasise so that I do not lose my rhythm that there comes a time in people’s lives where change is the only constant thing and only those who bury their heads in the sand or who are in the thicket are too blind to see how the forest is, including the operatives of that Government on your right. Those who many times we have told to say, “Give us balanced reporting on this radio or television station because it does not belong to your parents.” You can play around with anything that is personal-to-holder. Governance is like holding a basket on behalf of the people and if you start staggering, you will drop that basket. This is part of the stagger where they want to fortify themselves. K6 billion a month is raised if there are two million subscribers. What more do they want from the poor Zambian people? Is it for them to just wake up and be told Mr Rupiah Banda this, Mr George Kunda this and so on and they do not even want to talk about floods, but Mr Hichilema has disparaged, Mr Sata this, no. This country belongs to all of us and we need to respect that fact. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: It is incorrect for the people to think that they now have title of ownership of this country. It belongs to all of us and there will come a time when they will be tired. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Nkombo: Already, when we came out of Solwezi, they showed signs of weaning. They are tired. Sadly, I must mention there is more to see in the North-Western Province when we get to Mufumbwe. They will do the same using the same co-operation to black out the message that the Opposition party have got to the Zambian people. Mr George Kunda SC. this and that, no. 

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: We will not accept that. We will simply not.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, some of us in the Government have been the subject of abuse for a long time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We are, sometimes, silent. We have been insulted relentlessly, sometimes, for three years. There is vulgar language which is used and lies are told everyday. Now, ...

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: The word ‘lies’ is unparliamentary.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Publications, I am sorry. I withdraw that word.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Your honour the use of the word ‘lies’ is unparliamentary, kindly withdraw it and proceed.

You may continue, please.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word, ‘lies’. In some of the publications, template language is used.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, it is only fair for everyone to listen. When Hon. Nkombo was debating, all hon. Members listened. I liked that. It does not matter whether you agree or disagree with what he is saying. I think it is only fair that we listen because you will have the opportunity to debate as well. I guided the House from the beginning and I know that many hon. Members want to contribute and I am also looking at the time because this subject has to be concluded. Let us, please, listen. Otherwise you will only have four or five hon. Members to debate.

The hon. Vice-President and Minister of Justice may continue, please.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, what we have seen now is that when some of us on this side react, maybe, once in a blue moon, people cry ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: ... continuously. For example, one of the Former Presidents has been the subject of abuse since 2001. He reacted just once ...

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: ...and

Hon. Opposition Member: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I will not allow any point of order. You have to listen and if you do not listen, I will use my authority and put the question because if there is disorder and you do not want to debate this, that is a message to me. I will not allow a point of order until he finishes.

You may continue, please.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This is a democracy, we must also react strongly, sometimes, and relentlessly and we shall continue to do so. Do not take us for granted. We shall also defend ourselves either through the public or private media. We are also entitled. We also have reputations to protect. Some of the people who are speaking, today, use very vulgar language. We can get past newspapers of how they have abused some of us in the Government and as a democratic system, we also have to react. Take that through the State media or through the private media, we are entitled to defend ourselves. 

The President has been abused in this country. Everyday, people are writing about him. However, when you just say something one day and everybody will be crying and calling people mad. They will become disoriented just because we have reacted once. Just giving them a single dose of their own medicine makes them lose direction.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This is what we are doing.

The public media in this country is very vibrant and professional. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This Bill which we are discussing today has got strange provisions of appointments of a committee. You will never find it in any legislation and so we must remove it today. I am urging hon. Members to restore power back to the hon. Minister like any other board.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: What is so special about this particular board? We must amend it so that the hon. Minister can enjoy his power and constitute boards. This is what we are doing. I think that is the only contentious part of this Bill.

The Bill has already been operationalised. It is already in force. There was an appointments committee which was constituted and composed of non-governmental organisations (NGOs) leaders who shared on. NGO leaders who are notorious rather who are not impartial ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … who are not impartial.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: I know that you want to raise a point of order on the use of the word ‘notorious’. I think that was unparliamentary.

 Continue, your Honour.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: It was a slip of the tongue. I did not use that word.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Sir, NGO leaders whose inclination is predictable and have entered into alliances with certain political parties …

Hon. Opposition Members: Lufwekelo!

The Vice-President: … and are partisan. Those are the ones who found themselves on the appointments committee.

Hon. Opposition Members: Lufwekelo!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice:  They were about to recommend their friends with who they shared the same views. That is not the way we want the public media to be run. Therefore, this matter went to court after we had operationalised the Act in 2002 and the court guided that the hon. Minister is the one who should have power to appoint, but recommendations can be made by various organisations for the hon. Minister’s consideration. We do not have to create bureaucracies in the appointment of members of boards.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Therefore, let the hon. Minister appoint his members. There are so many boards which are running independently after they are appointed by this professional team of hon. Ministers here.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We are impartial in the manner we constitute boards and even on this public broadcaster, the ZNBC, which has been operating professionally. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We need to restore the powers of the hon. Minister. It is not true to say that this Act has not been operationalised. We are collecting television licenses. Under which law are we doing that? It is the same amendment …

Mr Kambwili: Piecemeal! 

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … which we are using to collect television licenses. This amendment means that we have seen how the Bill has worked in practice, but we now want to remove offensive provisions which do not help the running of the ZNBC. 

Mr Speaker, I urge hon. Members to support this Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to debate this obnoxious and nauseating Bill …

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … that is intended to mislead Zambians pertaining to the MMD propaganda.

Mr Muyanda: Beautiful stuff, indeed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, all of us are aware of what transpired during the Iraq War. There was one propaganda Chief called “Comical Ali”…

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … who used to mislead the Iraqis pertaining to the war.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: The scenario that was obtaining in Iraq at the time was …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: … what is obtaining in Zambia, now.

The Deputy Chairperson: There must be order in the House.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, as I stand here in the same vein that His Honour the Vice-President urged hon. Member on his side to support the Bill, I urge all my colleagues, progressive hon. Members of Parliament, to reject this particular Bill in its totality.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we, in the Opposition, strongly believe that this piece of legislation is intended to confer the rights of propaganda in the MMD as we approach the 2011 Elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is the intention. The Vice-President has indicated that they have decided to move the amendment because the earlier law that was in place was mischievous, misleading and took away the powers of the hon. Minister. 

Mr Speaker, that so-called mischievous law was not moved by the Opposition. It was moved by the then progressive Government of the Late Mwanawasa, SC. …

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … who recommended that we needed reforms in the media. 

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Unfortunately, that progressive and upright son of Zambia is no more. As a result of him having left us, those colleagues on your right side have decided to rescind whatever progressive law he moved in the interest of the media.

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, my colleagues have indicated the biasness of the ZNBC and other print media who have become Government or MMD gazettes. Instead of portraying the image of the country, they are portraying the image of few misguided individuals. As a public broadcaster, they are under a duty to give the public the right to reply to any person who has been affected. Alas!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The ZNBC is not a public broadcaster. As it is now, it is a propaganda wing of the MMD.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes, it is a propaganda wing of the MMD!

I wish to state, categorically, here that …

Hon. Government Members: We are more than you are!

Mr Mwiimbu: … even if you have arrogance of numbers, that will not be the end over this matter. It will not be the end. We still have the avenue of going to court.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Mwiimbu: We shall proceed to court.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! It is only the hon. Member for Monze Central on the Floor of the House. All those hon. Members who are interjecting are wrong. Please, give the hon. Member for Monze Central a chance to debate.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I thank you for your protection.

Mr Speaker, the Vice-President indicated that colleagues have the right to reply. Surely, as a Government, when you are given the opportunity to reply, you must make replies based on facts and not innuendos or matters that are not far from untruths.

Mr Beene: Hallucinations!

 Mr Mwiimbu: As my colleagues have indicated, we pay money. My colleagues and I and our constituencies pay money to the ZNBC.

Hon. Opposition members: We shall stop now.

Mr Mwiimbu: The intention is to ensure that there is no bias reporting at the ZNBC, but that is not the case. As we are approaching the elections, the situation will be worse. We have lifted the veil and realised that the intension of making this amendment is not noble. The intention is to entrench the MMD in its propaganda machinations. I have no dobout that my colleagues and I on this side …

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and those who are with us will ensure that this Bill does not go through.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, if we do not get what we want, legal and others we all have the news which we shall use. 

Mr Speaker, I do not want to speak on this matter any more. I have also noted what my friends want. They want to vote against this Bill. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, I sat here listening to the counsel’s threat to go to court. There is a phrase which says, “There is a presumption of lawfulness of law.”

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, … 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You see, the guidance I gave when the hon. Member for Monze was speaking equally applies. It is now the chance for the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to speak. Let us give him a hearing.

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I was only reminding the counsel that there is what is called presumption of lawfulness of law. This implies that what this House passes, following all stages and procedures, cannot be challenged.

Interruptions

Mr Mulongoti: Therefore, please, do not mislead those who appear to be very happy that because the lawyer has spoken, he is saying the gospel truth. 

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Please, understand. I am only helping you.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, this House has got the power to make laws. Once it makes a law, it becomes lawful. If any lawyer is telling you that you will go to court, tell him he is wasting your time. 

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, however, having said so much about my learned counsel, I would like to state that this law is a bit ambiguous. I am saying so because the appointing authority, the hon. Minister who was supposed to appoint a committee to select a board, has no power thereafter. You cannot give powers to a person and then after that say he is an ultimate authority. It does not make sense. The amendment that is being made is good because it intends to give the hon. Minister authority to have a say. 

Sir, let us suppose the Recommendations Committee recommends a name of a criminal and then the security wings send a word to the hon. Minister that the person they have recommended is a criminal, what happens? Now, since the hon. Minister has got no powers, that criminal will find his way on the board. Please, understand what we are talking about. The problem is that you would want to see the negative side even in anything that is positive. The protection that is intended is for the people of Zambia to be protected from characters who will not add value. It is not that the Recommendations Committee cannot do that. What they are saying is that when the Recommendations Committee have made the recommendation, the hon. Minister must have a say after being advised by other wings of the Government. It does not make sense where an appointee says he is the final authority after you appointed him. Please, understand even if you feel very angry that we are on this side and you are on that side. It is by the will of God.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: When your time comes, if it ever will, we will accord all the respect to make you function. One of the things you will need, I can assure you, is the use of a broadcast. I was hon. Minister in that ministry and I never abused any of the powers that I had.

Interruptions

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, this country has now got over thirty-five radio stations, television stations and many newspapers. Why is it that what is said in those private radio stations and …

Interruptions

Mr Mulongoti: It does not matter to you.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Please, let me make my last appeal. Hon. Members, you have given us the power to guide and ensure that the House proceeds orderly. In this vein, we want to use this power carefully. If I am pushed to the limit, do not be surprised if I begin asking some of you to leave the House. I cannot be seen to be helpless.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that, in governance, you must have a voice. One of the voices we want is to tell the people of Zambia what we are using their money for. If you are going to insist that the Government should not even have a voice to tell the people what is happening with their money just because, once in a while, there are debates that are acrimonious between us politicians, I think, we are going too far. I said that, one day, you will find yourselves in the Government and you will need to explain to the people of Zambia what you are doing. If you are going to be emotional about broadcasting, then it will not work. Let me say that some of these things are evolutional and you should not expect them to happen overnight. 

Sir, you should understand that all of us in here except for the Chair have got our own histories. You can stand up in here and claim that you are an angel, but you should not forget that we know where you come from. So, when there is political debate in the media, please, accept that at an appropriate time, you have the right to defend yourself in the media and outside this House. What is happening is that what is debated outside the House becomes a subject of the day in here. We have a Bill here and it is talking about restoring the hon. Minister to be able even to support what the Supreme Court says in its ruling and that it is not possible for the appointing authority to become relegated to the outside in the implementation of rules and regulations in an institution. It is sheer common sense. Please, Hon. Kambwili, one day, when you are governing…

Mr Kambwili indicated on a point of order.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kambwili, when I keep quiet, it does not mean that I have not heard your comment. The hon. Minister also heard you and instead of debating, he mentioned your name because you were distracting him.  Now, why do you want to raise a point of order? 

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not do that.

Can the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I would like to acknowledge and support what His Honour the Vice-President said. This issue of respect for each other is critical. What examples are we setting to the people out there? What are our children thinking about us when we stand up on the Floor of this House and use language that makes them wonder whether we came here to work or not. 

Mr Speaker, I am a very sad politician. I came into this House in 1995 and I have seen robust debates on the Floor of this House. I saw people debate for two days in this House when we were making a constitution. 

We enjoyed listening to those debates because they made sense. The people who articulated those issues used intellect. As leaders, we must display keen intellect to be able to listen to each other and provide leadership. What I see, however, is a tendency to want to show that we are the loudest. I do not think that this is the idea. The idea is that you persuade us in a way that we will actually enjoy and end up agreeing with you.

Like His Honour the Vice-President said, it is abusive that, for eight years only, one person is being attacked. One brief response from this person attracts so much outcry from hon. Members. This Bill is intended to restore power to the hon. Minister and prepare the ZNBC for commercialisation than being a public broadcaster. It does not imply that when the ZNBC becomes a public broadcaster money will flow in from all over. It must be a commercial commitment. 

Mr Speaker, I am sad that we have spent a lot of time listening to angry people over issues that have nothing to do with this Bill. I am appealing to the hon. Member for Monze to be helpful because we are dealing with the law and he has an obligation to help those of us who do not understand to appreciate it. 

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter 

Hon. Members indicated to speak.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can I have order? When I say order, it means sit down. Simple. 

I do not want you, hon. Members, to use the Chairperson, who is now presiding as an excuse not to debate this Bill. I want you to debate it. Therefore, no amount of insubordination will compel me to curtail this debate. I want you people to debate. I am looking at my time and we still have quite a bit of time after the break at 1830 hours. Let us, therefore, debate nicely. 

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to what appears to be an abortive debate. Although the topic is emotional, I will not allow myself to be swayed by emotions. I want to contribute in a sober and constructive manner as a well trained economist, journalist and former editor of a national newspaper, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kakoma: …as well as a person who has been involved in media reforms for the last fifteen years. We started it and we are still in it. 

 Mr Speaker, the purpose of media reforms, especially those related to broadcasting in Zambia, were because of the fact that public confidence in the ZNBC had gone down. The public feared that the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services had an overbearing hand in the operations of the ZNBC and was viewed as a person who censored the ZNBC. In order to bring confidence back to the ZNBC and transform it into a public broadcaster, it was necessary to remove most of the powers of the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services, which tended to erode public confidence in the corporation. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: At the time, the hon. Minister had power to hire, not only the directors of the board, but also the director general. The hon. Minister had the power to fire at will. He had the power to determine the programming and programmes at the ZNBC and even had a say on issues concerning licensing. He would decide whom to license and whom not to. 
    
Mr Speaker, it was against this background that the well-meaning people who wanted to reform the media in Zambia decided that we needed to bring back public confidence into the broadcasting industry. One way of doing this was to try and remove some of the powers of the hon. Minister by firstly amending the ZNBC Act so that the powers of the hon. Minister to appoint directors of the board are shared with other stakeholders. In this way, there was transparency and accountability and biasness in the appointment of directors was removed. 

Mr Speaker, we went further and removed the powers of licensing from the hon. Minister and created the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) so that issues of licensing and programming of not only ZNBC, but other broadcasters as well were in the hands of an independent authority the IBA. We also had other media reforms such as the Freedom of Information. All this was meant to create a public broadcaster where everybody had confidence and moved away from a view that the ZNBC was an MMD broadcaster. 

Mr Speaker, a public broadcaster should be distinguished from other broadcasters. The ZNBC is not a Government broadcaster. It is a public broadcaster and the definition of ‘public’ should not be narrowed down to the Government in power. The Government in power is not the public. Everyone in Zambia, including members of the Opposition, is a stakeholder. We are the public and each of us has a stake in this broadcaster. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!  

Mr Kakoma: These reasons necessitated the transformation of ZNBC from a situation where it was viewed with suspicion to a public broadcaster. In order to transform it into a public broadcaster, we had to bring in the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Amendment Bill of 2002. 

It is, therefore, very disappointing and shocking that eight years down the line, the Government can come back to reverse the reforms that were initiated several years ago. They want us to revert to the years when the hon. Minister was given power to censor, hire and fire directors of the board and director generals and where the chief executive of the ZNBC edited with fear and favour because they were scared of being fired if they aired anything that annoyed the Government. 

Mr Speaker, public broadcasting is not about whether what will be aired will annoy the Government or not, but to tell the public the truth and tell it objectively. It was for this reason that we introduced the Appointments Committee to appoint the board so that the hon. Minister did not have the sole power to appoint, for instance, party cadres to sit on the board of the ZNBC. Various stakeholders were invited to nominate people who could sit on the Appointments Committee and bring confidence to the whole process. 

so that the director general who is appointed eventually by the board of directors has the trust of the Zambian people and can enjoy the confidence of the Zambian people unlike what the situation  is like, at the moment, where the Director-General of  the ZNBC is seen to be the minister’s appointee and can be manipulated any time.

Sir, the proposed amendment to delete the appointments committee from the current Act is being done in bad faith. It was meant to cure something by bringing impartiality in the appointment of the board of directors as well as the Director-General. If we remove this, we are back to the old days when the hon. Minister appointed only people who were seen to be singing the party song.

Mr Speaker, it is important that we distance the hon. Minister from the operations of the ZNBC. The hon. Minister or the Vice-President referred to a situation where one citizen was granted the privilege to have his press conference broadcast and aired for one hour on the ZNBC at no cost, and yet that press conference tended to attack other political players in the country . I do not want to sound like I am using innuendoes which are against the rules of debate of this House. Now, because one former Head of State was attacking leaders of two political parties, Messrs Hakainde Hichilema and Michael Sata, the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services found it so exciting that he ordered the ZNBC to have it edited and played several times. Such a privilege cannot be given even to me as an hon. Member of Parliament. I can have something to say about my constituency, but I will never be given that privilege to be aired free for one hour on ZNBC.

 Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Kakoma: I have to pay for it.

Sir, this Bill has been brought in bad faith. I would, therefore, like to support the stand taken by your Committee that the proposed amendments to the Bill be rejected because they are not adding any value to the Media Reforms that we started sometime back.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson of Committees:   Order! 

It will be amiss for me not to say something. I was listening very carefully to the last few minutes of debate. It is that kind of order that we require in the House − to listen very carefully. I, therefore, want to commend the hon. Member of Zambezi West for being very careful in the use of words, but it was clear and we got what he was aiming at. Therefore, I hope that those who will speak from now own will emulate his example.

The Deputy Minister for Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for affording me this opportunity to debate this particular Bill.

Sir, I want to join the Chair in congratulating Hon. Kakoma on being mature even if I do not like what he said.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: He was absolutely mature in this particular debate.

Mr Speaker, throughout my twenty-three years as hon. Member of Parliament for this House, and records are there, I have never insulted anybody. It is true that I use very strong words, but non-insulting. Therefore, I join the debate particularly if I feel that the debate has a smell of immaturity.

Sir, while this debate is about correcting something that has been missing for some time, I want to implore my honourable colleagues on your left that they should never debate the bad way. If they say they are on their way in 2011, this debate is in their favour.

 Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: If they do not ever hope to be in the Government one day, they should fight this Bill. If they form parties not thinking that they will ever be in Government, then this Bill is bad for them. If they hope that in 2011, and I want to wish them well, …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … they will really come over here and we will be on the other side of the House, this Bill is in their favour because, as a Government and as leaders of the nation, you are supposed to have a platform by which you can inform people how the Government’s development projects are run. They have platforms of some private media who form clubs of ridiculing people every day.  They look for people and show them as debaters, and yet those people are empty in the heads. All they know is that I want to …

Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: This is a very mature debate. Unfortunately, it is beyond the understanding of some people.

 Laughter  

Mr Munkombwe: Well, they are entitled to that type of life. I am saying that if you are on that side of the House and you are sure, though I do not know what miracle will happen, … 

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe:… that we shall be out, this is your Bill. If you think that you will be in Government, as the case is at the moment, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: … I do not think that it will be right for you not to support this Bill. 

Mr Speaker, these threats of, “We are going that side and you will come on this side”, where they not there in 2001, 2006 and on 30th October, 2008? Were they not there? 

Hon. Government Members: They were there.

Mr Munkombwe: Everybody…

Business was suspended from 1815 hours to 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was advancing a point on the notion which many hon. Members on your left harbour and think that anybody in the Government at any particular time, straight away, is consigned to uselessness and is a sell out. That is not right. As a Government, we listen to reasoned debate and pick whatever is valuable, but when there are nasty words being used, we too are human beings and can react.

I will work with anybody who is elected by the people in that particular area, but all I request from them is not to speak their politics in my presence and I will also not speak their politics. That is the normal thing to do, but when you stand up to say, “So and so is horrible,” what is it that we want to achieve? We want benefits for our people. Therefore, rather than thinking of going into the bush and begin fighting, all you need is to bargain for your people even when you are on the Back Bench. 

Mr Speaker, those who bargain achieve more for their constituencies than those who tend to be arrogant.

Mrs Phiri: Is that in the Bill?

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, this Bill seeks to normalise what has not been normal by doing away with the appointments committee which has no powers. We are saying that the power to make recommendations must come back to the hon. Minister who will also seek authority from this House. What is wrong with that?

Mr Speaker, I always give the example of some students who are erroneously accepted at the university and, every time, they are going to write an examination, they create problems so that they are permanent students.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: They will create problems and, sometimes, to the extent of stoning people’s cars and so on and so forth. I want to encourage hon. Members of the Opposition to look at real issues because, hopefully, they may be here, depending on the mathematics they are using, which I do not see at the moment.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, in Tonga we have a saying which goes, “Koshya, konsika” which means dig and close. If you insult us thinking, tomorrow, you are coming on this side, what about if you do not come back in 2011? 

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Again, you will start telling people that in 2016, we will be in power and if you do not make it, you will tell the people that in 2021 we shall be in power.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: This is dangerous. If you are a guaranteed permanent member of the Opposition, that is alright, you are justified to fight this Bill, but if you have any hope at all, this is your Bill. You will have power to control the instruments of the Government. You yourselves have private radio stations and some press which ridicule anybody who is in leadership. If you read from the front to the last page of the paper, the leadership is being ridiculed. 

Mr Speaker, you talk about the so-called democracies, the BBC, for example, but we do not know it. We only hear about it. Some people refer to countries where there is no peace. You can talk about certain countries in East Africa where they are fighting everyday, but here we have peace. This country is envied by all African countries because of the peace we are enjoying although we have some problems here and there. It is better to have problems in peace and have life no matter how temporary that life may be. At least, nobody is eating his son or daughter because they are hungry.

Mr Speaker, there is no controversy and we should not magnify. If you have a problem with any person in leadership, particularly if that is aimed at me, I will not react to senselessness. I will even embrace whoever insults me because that is my nature, but I am a tough person and those who know me know that.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I will embrace those who think I am useless because I want to convince them that I am not useless. Nobody can survive in a political life …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Minister, Come back to the Bill.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, on the Bill, a lot of hon. Members have gone astray by calling some people names, but I am a humble debater and I will not go into their shoes because they think it is a right to them although I am not into that kind of thing. This Bill is innocent and if you advocate that it be rejected, you are just rejecting yourself.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: It is very innocent and I want to appeal to all our colleagues on the other side to be reasonable by supporting this Bill because it is for their future.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on the Bill. I would like to thank His Honour the Vice-President for his input in the Bill.

Mr Speaker, it is wrong for us to talk about the ZNBC being unbalanced, but it is important for us to show the imbalance being talked about. 

  Many of the hon. Members from the Opposition on your left, Mr Speaker, are always carried on the ZNBC television, radio stations and many vernacular programmes. They speak and the nation hears them. It is, therefore, important for anybody who has complaints to bring them to a proper body that will understand and be able to deal with those areas or inadequacies. 

Mr Speaker, I want to speak on what Hon. Kambwili said. He said that there is a committee from the Office of the President that vets what to air. There is no such committee.

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: No one from the Office of the President or the ministry sits on any such committee. They have their own operational committees which they operate under. I want to assure the nation that what was said is a figmentation of Hon. Kambwili himself. There is no such a committee at all.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka spoke at length about the ZNBC being a Government propaganda organ. Now, the ZNBC, as a public broadcaster, needs to be showing the people of Zambia how the Government in place is spending their money. How much more transparency do you want other than us making what we are doing public for everybody to see, and yet you are saying it is propaganda? It can only be propaganda if it is coming from a point of view where it is political, but when it is showing development, you must accept. For example, I heard Hon. Mwiimbu on Radio Phoenix saying that there is nothing that this Government has done in the Southern Province.

Mr Beene: Nothing!

Laughter 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Now, naturally, the people of Zambia and the Southern Province would love to know that there is development going on in there area and the Government would like to show it.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: A very simple example is that there is a road that is just being constructed …

Mr Muyanda: Where?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: … from Zimba to Livingstone. That is a multimillion dollar road. So, how can you say there is nothing that is happening? We must grow out of simple propaganda and allow for the truth to come out in this nation. This is important for the country.

Mr Speaker, let me also respond to a few other issues. The hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka, Hon. Nkombo, said that the ZNBC is only fooling the people. There is no government that wants to fool anybody. A government stands for the people because it has been voted in by the people.

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Really, you know that consulting loudly is not right. We have always advised you to consult nicely without interfering with the debate, but that is not what is going on.

Can you continue, hon. Minister.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, this Bill is asking for the powers to appoint the board to be given to the hon. Minister. Many times the hon. Members of Parliament on your left have complained and said the hon. Ministers on your right have lost their power to Permanent Secretaries. Now, this Bill seeks to give power to the hon. Minister in the same manner they have suggested, but they oppose it. That which you speak here, the Government takes note of and goes to deal with it. This is what we are doing today. So, I urge you to support that which you alone have spoken about.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, there are also a number of areas that are being forgotten. The powers that are being given to the hon. Minister are not absolute. The hon. Minister will come back here according to the law in order for those names to be ratified.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: So, there is no absolute power in the amendment that is being made. It is for the hon. Minister to bring here the names to be ratified. This amendment is removing a lot of bureaucracy that is totally unnecessary so that Parliament can be able to discuss and ratify those names. So, when you say that you do not want this amendment, you are saying that Parliament does not want to ratify the names. In my view, it is better to support a clear method of allowing for the board to be put in place rather than us to continue with the present Act that has ambiguities where there should not be.

Mr Speaker, I want to thank many wonderful hon. Members that have debated here. I was particularly touched by Hon. Mwiimbu when he said that the ZNBC should not be an organ through which people are going to be spoken against. I think that is a good debate, but then we should not just leave it there. In his constituency, Sky FM does a bad job. It would be better to follow the adage which says ‘charity begins at home’. 

Interruptions 

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: It is important, therefore, for us to deal with such areas and allow ourselves to be national leaders so that we can take the agenda of transparency everywhere, including into private radio stations. This is important.

Mr Speaker, there was also somebody, I cannot remember now who spoke. I think it was Hon. Kakoma, who spoke very strongly about one citizen who went to the ZNBC to castigate two political leaders whose names I do not want to mention here. It is important to do some research before you bring things here because that particular eminent former Head of State paid for that programme.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr V. Mwale: Mwaona a Kakoma!

Interruptions 

Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us listen.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Let me continue. Mr Speaker, not only the ZNBC showed it, but Muvi Television also showed it. Furthermore, Radio Inchengelo also aired it. So, how can you blame the ZNBC when other radio stations and, indeed, a television station aired it? Therefore, it is not right to talk about the ZNBC being propaganda machine when after all the others, including Muvi Television, showed the same programme … 

Hon. Government Member: QFM.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: So, it would have been better when doing your research to have looked at all these areas, Hon. Kakoma.

Mr Speaker, it is Hon. Nkombo who said that there are certain things that where spoken by His Honour the Vice-President that endangered the lives of those that he spoke about. I think it is also necessary to look at ourselves. Several times the hon. Members of Parliament on your right have been called many names that indicate that they are thieves, corrupt and so on and so forth on Radio Phoenix. Their lives are also being endangered when they are called such names. It is necessary that we understand that every word that we speak must have facts in order for the people of Zambia not to be misled. You should never mislead the people of Zambia just because you are being political. No! It will all come back to you because the Bible says “Whatever a man sows, so shall he reap.”

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Kakoma: Mr Speaker, let me also thank all those that have debated. I have many areas that I wanted to touch on, but I know that it is necessary that we move. My appeal to all the hon. Members of Parliament that are here is that they should not look at this as a bad Bill. This is a Bill to move the reforms forward instead of us going backwards. The Supreme Court ruled and gave a direction on how we must proceed. What we are doing, as a Government, here is to streamline what that ruling was all about. Therefore, opposing the amendment is not going to help at all. It is necessary that we agree and move this amendment in order to ensure that the ZNBC operates well and has enough finances.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division. 

Question that the Zambia National Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill, 2010, be read a second time, put and the House voted.

Ayes – (85)

Akakandelwa
Banda. A.
Banda C. K. B., SC.
Banda I
Changwe
Chibamba
Chibombamilimo
Chilembo
Chimbaka
Chinyanta
Chipungu
Chishya
Chituwo
Chizhyuka
Chongo
Cifire
Daka
Imasiku
Kachimba
Kaingu
Kakusa
Kalenga
Kalila
Kalumba
Kapwepwe
Kasongo
Kawimbe
Kazonga
Konga
Kunda
Liato
Lundwe
Lungwangwa
Mabenga
Machungwa
Magande
Malwa
Mangani
Mbewe
Mbulakulima
Misapa
Molobeka
Mubika
Muchima
Mufalali
Mulonga
Mulongoti
Mulyata
Munaile
Munkombwe
Musonda
Mushota
Muteteka
Mwale V.
Mwale M. B.
Mwangala
Mwansa E. C.
Mwansa T. K.
Mwanza
Mwapela
Mwila B.Y.
Namugala
Namulambe
Ndalamei
Ngoma
Nkhata
Nyirenda
Pande
Phiri
Phiri F.
Sayifwanda
Shawa
Shikapwasha
Sichamba
Sichilima
Sikazwe
Silavwe
Siliya
Simama
Simbao
Sinyangwe
Sinyinda
Taima
Tembo F. R.
Zulu

Noes (45)

Banda E. M.
Beene
Chanda Colonel
Chazangwe
Chisala
Chitonge
Chota
Habeenzu
Hachipuka
Hamududu
Hamusonde
Imbwae
Kakoma
Kambwili
Kapata
Kapeya
Kasoko
Katema
Katuka
Limata
Lubinda
Lumba
Malama
Masiye
Mooya
Mukanga
Mulenga C.
Musokotwane
Muyanda
Mwamba B. C. K.
Mwamba G. B.
Mwango
Mweemba
Mwenya
Mwiimbu
Mwila
Nkombo
Nsanda
Ntundu
Phiri M. J. 
Scott
Sejani
Simuusa
Sing’ombe
Syakalima

Abstentions – (02)

Msichili
Sikota

Question accordingly agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 11th March, 2010

____________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

____________

The House adjourned at 1904 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 11th March, 2010