Debates- Friday, 24th September, 2010

DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 24th September, 2010

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Minister of Home Affairs and Acting Leader of Government Business (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business the House will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 28th September, 2010, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if they will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

On Wednesday, 29th September, 2010, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. The House will then continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks.

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 30th September, 2010, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks.

Sir, on Friday, 1st October, 2010, the Business of the House will start with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions, if there will be any. Thereafter, there will be presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

GOVERNMENT HOUSING

35. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing how many houses were built by the Government under the following programmes from 2006 to 2009:

(a) National Housing Development Programme;

(b) National Housing Bonds Programme; and

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, under the National housing Development Programme, 620 houses were constructed.

Mr Speaker, the National Housing Bonds Trust was created to mobilise long-term finances by way through the issuance of municipal bonds for the construction of housing units in all local authorities throughout the country commencing with five pilot councils of Lusaka, Chipata, Kitwe, Livingstone and Solwezi. Unfortunately, no houses have been constructed under this programme because the trust failed to raise the necessary funds and there was no issuance of the bonds.

The Low Cost Housing Development Programme is part of the overall Government National Housing Development Programme. There are low cost houses which were built by certain districts from 2006 to 2009 and they are as follows:

District No. of units constructed

Nakonde - 5

Mungwi - 3

Chadiza - 4

Chibombo - 10

Chinsali - 7

Chongwe - 10

Kasempa - 10

Lufwanyama - 5

Luwingu - 10

Nyimba - 10

Total - 75

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, what specific interventions is the Government going to put in place to ensure that the 68 per cent of people who are actually living below the poverty datum line are availed with decent accommodation because these numbers are adequate to go round the different districts?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, these numbers are indeed low, especially when you compare them to the deficit that we are experiencing. We have placed a special emphasis on the Low cost Housing Development Programme. We have a programme in place to target the building of low cost houses. We have been allocating some of the resources from Central Government to some selected local authorities for them to be able to implement the programme. We also want the building of low cost houses to be done at local level through the councils. It is necessary that we set aside certain amounts of money to go towards low cost housing development. The Central Government will also supplement such efforts. We shall also encourage private-public partnership (PPPs). With these efforts, I am sure we should be able to reduce the deficit that we are experiencing, particularly, with special focus on low cost houses.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the trust failed to raise money, but there were reports that it raised the money but misused. May I know what the truth is?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, the information we have as Government is that the trust failed to raise these necessary resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, why is it that under the National Housing Development Programme, the Government has concentrated on urban areas, especially Lusaka and Kitwe and has not done much in the rural areas?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, a number of efforts have been made particularly in the urban areas and not rural, a situation which is of concern to the Government. Therefore, as an hon. Minister responsible for housing in the country, I have directed the National Housing Authority to ensure that the construction of houses is not done just in Lusaka, but countrywide. Our emphasis is on national housing development. I made it very clear when I attended the meeting of the new board a week ago that more efforts should be made in rural areas because the people there need accommodation. Therefore, I can rest assure the hon. Member that he will be seeing efforts very soon in as far as houses are concerned in other areas other than Lusaka.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, considering that only a small number of houses are being constructed by the Government and that a lot of people are building their houses in the urban centres, would his ministry consider putting more resources towards guiding the people who are building by providing basic guidelines on what kind of houses should be built so that the houses built by individuals and private developers meet the basic …

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member is debating.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, the suggestion that is coming from the hon. Member of Parliament for Luapula is, indeed, within the National Housing Policy. These are some of the issues that our national housing authority is mandated to address. We shall continuously remind them on the implementation of the policy which captures those elements.

I want to say to the hon. Member of Parliament that his views are in line with our National Housing Policy. We want to have a standardized way of building houses. We also want to assist private individuals to make sure that the houses that are built are of a certain standard.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF KASULU HIGH SCHOOL

36. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Education when the Kasulu High School in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency, which is under construction, would be completed and opened.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the high school project at Kasulu is being constructed under a community mode of construction which requires 25 per cent contribution from the community in form of river sand, stones, bricks and skilled labour. As the construction is a heavy load for the community, the construction has been phased as follows:

(a) Phase I is the 1x4 classroom block;

(b) Phase II is the 5 teachers’ houses; and

The 1 x 4 classroom block which is under construction is expected to be completed in 2011. The high school will only open after the three phases are completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether the ministry has put aside some money to build the teacher’s houses for the same school.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I said in my reply that Phase II will comprise 5 teachers’ houses and it will come to fruition.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, why have they put the construction of VIP toilets in Phase III instead of Phase I?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, we realise that it is important to have good sanitation at the school. That is why we have said that the school will not open until all the three phases have been completed.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF GOVERNMENT COMPLEX

37. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) when the construction of the Government Complex in Lusaka would be completed;

(b) how much money the Government had spent on the project; and

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Kalila): Mr Speaker, the completion of the remaining works at the Government Complex is scheduled for March, 2012. The Government has so far spent a total amount of K200 billion on the project.

Mr Speaker, the delay in completing the project has been due to inadequate funds from the Treasury. The Government has since secured a concessional loan from China to complete the remaining works.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, I would like to know when the construction of this building was started and how many ministries it will accommodate upon completion.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): The history is that it was started by the United National Independence Party (UNIP) as its party headquarters. If you want the specific date, we can get that for you.

Secondly, we will look at ministries which do not have accommodation and make the information available to the relevant ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, will this building accommodate all the ministries once completed or will the Government construct other offices?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I do not think it is desirable to locate all the ministries in one building. Those that are already accommodated will be left where they are. If there will be need to change state of affairs, then that will be done. However, for now, we do not have plans to move all ministries to one complex.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I would like to know how much is involved in the concessional loan from China.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, that is a new question. We can provide the details if the hon. Member wants them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how much of the K112 million he alluded to in his answer did his Government source from Zambians by force.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the figure was K200 billion and K100 million and whatever. This Government does not extort money from citizens. You will recall that the history of that building is that it was started as a party headquarters. The Government that time made a decision to request citizens to participate in the development of the complex. As far as this Government is concerned, we have not extorted any money from anybody for the purpose of that project. The building of the Government Complex is a Government project and we are doing it within the confines of the law.

I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, the last time there was a similar question, the hon. Minister said that the construction of the complex started in 1985. May I know if he remembers that information?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I said that the construction of the complex did not start as a Government project. It started as a UNIP project. Therefore, those details are available in the UNIP archives.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF MWENDA AND MUSONDA FALLS MARKETS

38. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when the construction of Mwenda and Musonda Falls Markets in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency will be completed;

(b) what the delay in completing the project was; and

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Muteteka): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that there is no provision in the 2010 Budget to support the completion of the construction of the Mwenda and Musonda Falls markets in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency;

Mr Speaker, the delay in completing the project has been caused by the council’s inability to provide funds for the project. It is, therefore, important for the council to note that developmental initiatives should be advanced by councils themselves and all infrastructure development should be planned and reflected in the council annual work plans and supported by the budget provision.

Mr Speaker, the council has not provided the ministry with information and details on how much is required to complete the project.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing whether the ministry is aware that it sent K60 million in 2007 to complete the two markets, but the funds were misapplied by the council. If the ministry is aware, what is it doing about this?

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, as the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, we send money to various councils according to the projects that we have approved. If money was sent for that purpose, we are going to look at the audit reports which we carryout, every year, in all the city councils. Should it be established that there was misappropriation of funds, the law will be applied accordingly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, what tentative plans has the ministry put in place to complete all the markets that were started under the Zambia Social Investment Fund (ZAMSIF) which did not have enough funds?

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, generally, as a Government, we have a plan of looking into the development of markets. With specific reference to those markets started by ZAMSIF, I know that there is one market in Mufulira. I have been there and took not of what still needs to be done.

First of all, these projects need to be captured in the council’s planning. From there, some bigger projects will be taken over at the Central Government level. Within the context of the Urban Markets Development Programme, we can complete some of them depending on the amounts that are required.

Mr Speaker, the basic answer is to request the local councils to start with their own planning at the local level on what needs to be done particularly in those areas where ZAMSIF had started, but did not complete the projects. Since these projects are of interest to members of the public in those areas, we need to prioritise and the Central Government will come in where necessary based on the amounts that are involved.

I thank you, Sir.

MUKOLO MULTI-PURPOSE CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY

39. Colonel Chanda (Kanyama) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) when the Mukolo Multi-Purpose Co-operatives Society was first registered; and

(b) whether the society makes any annual returns in accordance with the law, and if not, why.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mbewe): I wish to inform the House that Mukolo Multi-Purpose Co-operative Society was first registered on 8th August, 1986, carrying certificate number 1866.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, records review that the society has not been filling annual returns with the office of the Registrar of Co-operatives in the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives as required by law. Most societies have laxed in fulfilling this requirement because of ignorance about the need to do so. However, societies are now being informed, through the ministry’s sensitisation programme, to submit the annual returns.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, it is clear that this particular co-operative, which is in Kanyama Constituency, is defunct and should have been deregistered.

Mr Speaker: Order!

You are debating. Ask your question if you have any.

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that this co-operative has infrastructure that was constructed using public funds, but is now being used as a tavern by two named individuals?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, when a co-operative society is to be formed, there must be a dire need or a problem in that locality. In that light, the people in that community formed that society to solve a particular problem. In this case, there is some political intervention …

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: …where hon. Members of Parliament induce formation of co-operatives which fail to run as business entities at the end of the day. In this case, renting out a building that is under utilised is the wish of the board members of the co-operative. As a ministry, there is very little we can do, but only advise. Therefore, in this situation, we can only give advice and deregister the co-operative once it is discovered that there are other issues involved.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister in his response stated that most of the co-operatives are not filing their returns. Therefore, I would like to find out whether societies that are not doing so are receiving fertiliser support and, if so, why is the Government promoting illegalities?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, when a co-operative society does not hold annual general meetings and has no other business at its headquarters, it just exists on paper and does not serve the people. In that case, this type of co-operatives should not be given any co-operative because it is not serving the people.

I thank you, Sir

Hon. Members: Any co-operatives?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, it should not be given any fertiliser. There is a tendency of co-operatives only being formed to access fertiliser. It should, thus, be noted that we are monitoring those types of co-operatives and they will not be entrusted with the distribution of fertiliser.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Walanda bwino mudala.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, what action does the Government intend to take against co-operatives that are failing to live by the required standards?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the programme of deregistering erring co-operatives is on-going. Right now, officers are in the provinces attending to the said problem.

I thank you, Sir.

MINING TRAINING SCHOOL IN SINAZONGWE

40. Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development whether there were any plans to build a local training school to provide mining and safety skills to coal miners in Sinazongwe.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to set up a training school to provide mining and safety skills to coal miners in Sinazongwe. However, there are institutions such as the University of Zambia, the Copperbelt University, Luanshya Crafts Training School and Kitwe Trades Training School where mining companies send their employees for training in mining related courses.

Sir, additionally, mining companies are compelled by law, through Mining Regulations 202-215 (appointment of mine managers – appointment of persons in charge), to appoint only competent persons. A competent person is defined as any person who, in relation to any duty or function, has adequate training and experience so as to enable him or her perform such duty or function without posing avoidable danger to himself/herself or any person. This compels mining houses to run in-house training programmes to ensure competence of their employees.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why the Chinese Mining Company has not been compelled to obey the Government or the laws of this country by establishing a mining training school so that they can avert the constant accidents that have occurred underground in Sinazongwe.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, what the hon. Member should understand is that it is a requirement by the Zambian laws to put in place competent persons at supervisory level wherever mining operations are being undertaken.

Mrs Speaker, in the case of Collum Coal Mine, in realising that there may be methane production, the mine has even gone further in its aim to avert accidents to acquire instruments such as the methanometre to detect and ensure that there are no fires underground. However, I hope that the hon. Member realises that, in coal mines, there are a lot of rock bursts which are unavoidable.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, it is a requirement under mining regulations that each and every mining company must have a safety department responsible for training its employees on safety skills. May I know whether the two mines in Sinazongwe, Maamba Coal Mine and Collum Coal Mine, have safety departments.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member realises that, under the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Department, there is the Mine Safety Department which has been in operation for a long time and is older than most of us. It ensures that in these mining companies and sites, mine safety training is undertaken.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, as my colleague, the hon. Member for Roan has said, Konkola Copper Mine (KCM), Mopani Copper Mine and other mining companies have training schools. I would like to find out when the employees at Maamba Coal Mine were last sent for training to these safety skills?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I am sure that even the hon. Member for Sinazongwe would attest to the fact that Maamba Coal Mine, …

Mr Muyanda indicated.

Interruptions

Mr M. B. Mwale: … which is the oldest coal mine in the country, had a training school where its employees were trained in safety related matters. In the case of the recent past, it is a well-known fact that operations at Maamba have been intermittent. This means that there has been no formal training as there has been no production of coal for some time.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, may I know how often the mine is visited by the mining safety department.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, our mining inspectors frequently visit the mines in the Southern Province, which also include the gemstone mines, on a monthly basis.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out if the hon. Minister is happy with the performance of Collum Coal Mines and other coal mines in Sinazongwe and if that is the case, why are the mines being closed.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I think the term ‘happy’ is subjective. In this case, Collum Coal Mine is serving this country a lot of foreign exchange in that we would have been importing a lot of coal from neighbouring countries. However, there are some environmental issues concerning Collum Coal Mine and this Government is very proactive to ensure the retro-medial measures are put in place.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

LABOUR OUTSOURCING

41. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

(a) what measures the Government had taken to curb the practice of outstanding labour by mining companies; and

(b) how many Zambian workers had lost employment due to the above arrangement.

The Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Kachimba): Mr Speaker, the term ‘outsourcing’ refers to a situation where a company contracts another company to provide services which the contracted company is specialised in. In principle, there is nothing wrong with outsourcing services and this practice dates as far back as the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mine (ZCCM) days where certain services were outsourced from other companies that had the expertise and technical know-how such as drilling and blasting. However, the concern of the Government is to see to it that the process of outsourcing does not disadvantage employees in as far as conditions of service are concerned.

Sir, the Government has, therefore, kept a close eye on the current trends of outsourcing being done in the mining sector with a view of curing any potential mischief. An example is my recent visit to the Copperbelt where I intervened in the matter involving outsourcing of some activities at KCM.

Mr Speaker, my ministry has not received any information on job losses due to outsourcing. What happened in the cases we have dealt with is that workers were given options to either go to the contracted company or in the worst case, leave and be paid terminal benefits. Some joined the contracted companies and others decided to leave. So, where workers opted for voluntary separation, they were paid their terminal benefits. There were, therefore, purely cases of voluntary separation and termination due to outsourcing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. {mospagebreak}

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, if this is a good arrangement ,as stated by the hon. Minister, why is it that employees at KCM have continued to protest over the same arrangements when, last month, the Government and the employees agreed to stop this arrangement.

The Minister of Labour and Social Services (Mr Liato): Mr Speaker, the answer has already been given. Outsourcing is not a new phenomenon in Zambia or elsewhere. It is only logical that if an institution does not have the technical know-how, it engages other people who can do the job better.

In some instances, it may be that an institution does not have the equipment required for a particular job. Therefore, in order to do that particular job, they may acquire new technology or equipment, in which case they would incur more costs. In such a case, it is logical to engage someone who will be able to do this job. The end result is cost saving.

Mr Speaker, our primary concern, as a Government, is to ensure that nobody is disadvantaged in this process. We went to KCM and found that the case, as explained by management, was genuine. Some of the companies that have been contracted pay even better salaries than KCM. This is what is obtaining on the ground.

Mr Speaker, where there is no genuine disadvantage to employees, there should be no complaints at all. The complaints from KCM were a result of lack of understanding of the process. We, therefore, agreed with the employer to stall this process to engage every social partner in the process so that people can take ownership of this process and move on smoothly when it has been properly understood.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, …

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order.
Is the hon. Minister for Eastern Province, Hon. I. Banda, and his colleagues, the hon. Minister and Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, Hon. Peter Daka and Hon. Alan Mbewe, in order not to educate the people in Katete to stop naming children after farming implements?

Laugher

Dr Machungwa: I am aware that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives has been working hard to ensure that people are familiar with farming implements such as shovels, wheelbarrows and hosepipes. However, is it in order that they have not encouraged the people there to stop giving children names such as Fosholo?

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: I raise this point of order because in today’s Zambia Daily Mail, a man in Katete was almost lynched by an irate mob because he called his child Fosholo after visiting Handyman’s Paradise. Are they in order not to come to Luapula or Northern provinces to get proper names for their children at no cost rather than continuing to endanger the lives of our citizens in that area by not educating them farming implements are not names of people?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

The point of order that has been raised by the hon. Member for Luapula has, in fact, been raised on his cousins from the eastern part of Zambia. Therefore, the Chair is not tempted to get involved in …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … cousinship jokes. The honourable House, therefore, will continue with the serious business before it.

The hon. Member for Roan may continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, one of the disadvantages of outsourcing is that employees, particularly in mining companies, cease to enjoy certain benefits such as pension and the use of mine hospitals. I would like to know what the ministry is doing to harmonise this situation.

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, the reason we encouraged KCM to stall this process was to take care of concerns such as those that have been raised by the hon. Member for Roan. We are in the process of harmonising these concerns.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the Government is doing to help Zambians who are well-acquainted with mining to form companies that can be given these contracts.

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, the Government is encouraging every Zambian, not only those who have the technical know-how of mining, but also those in any other relevant field to form companies from which they can earn a living and contribute to the development of this country. The rules are clear. If there are people who have formed companies and need the intervention of the Government, we are more than ready to assist.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, outsourcing is one of the many options that can be taken to solve the problems in the mines. I wish to find out from the hon. Minister why the other options that can improve efficiency and production not been looked at. Why are we insisting on outsourcing? Which other options have they looked at?

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, the people who are supposed to look for options or alternatives to any programme on how to run a company are the owners of the company. It is not the responsibility of the Government to look at other options.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, KCM looked at what options were best it and they decided on outsourcing, which they implemented. Like I said earlier, our concern is to see that nobody loses out in the process.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how the Government is monitoring these contracts to ensure that expatriates are not less qualified than the Zambians currently doing these jobs. What is the Government doing to protect Zambians in this process?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, we are still insisting on the policy of Zambianisation. This means that expatriates cannot be given jobs that Zambians are qualified to do. This rule still stands and we are closely monitoring the process so that nothing goes wrong in this regard.

Mr Speaker, we are taking all the concerns being raised by hon. Members on board.

I thank you, Sir,

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, the reason they are engaging with the mining companies is that the labour laws are weak. When is the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security going to bring Bills in this House to protect Zambian workers?

Mr Kambwili: Yes!

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, I believe that sometimes there is a general misunderstanding. In this case, I do not know which law the hon. Member is referring to which is weak and affecting the issue of outsourcing. I do not know of any. He is free to give us information if there are some particular laws that are weak that could result in people being disadvantaged in the mines as a result of outsourcing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

ROADS REHABILITATION IN LUAPULA

42. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) when the Government would rehabilitate the following roads in the Luapula Province:

(i) Mwenda/Kashiba;

(ii) Mukubi/Kawambwa; and

(iii) Mansa/Kashikishi;

(b) what had caused the delay in starting the works on roads; and

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Kalila): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Works and Supply, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), has intentions of rehabilitating the Mwenda/Kashiba Road. However, in the previous years, the works have been limited to maintenance of roads and culverts only due to limited funding.

The project road was also included for improvement under the Road Sector Programme Support financed by the Danish Government in 2008/09. However, the Danish Government has, to date, not released any funds for the programme.

The project road has been proposed as one of the priority roads to be included in the 2011 Annual Work Plan of the Road Development Agency by the Luapula Province Administration. The project road was also included for improvement.

The Makabi/Kawambwa Road is also one of the prioritised roads recommended by the Luapula Province Administration to be included in the 2011 Annual Work Plan of the RDA, subject to availability of funds.

The project road was also included for improvement under the Road Sector Support Programme (RSSP) financed by the Danish Government in 2008/09. However, the Danish Government has, to date, note released any funds for the programme.

The Ministry of Works and Supply, through the RDA, has immediate plans to rehabilitate the 236 km Mansa/Kashikishi Road. In the recent years, patching of potholes has been extensively carried out on the project. However, there has been no rehabilitation carried out due to inadequate funds. The project road is expected to be rehabilitated in 2011.

Mr Speaker, as explained above, the Mwenda/Kashiba and Mukaba/Kawambwa roads were planned for maintenance under the Danish Road Sector Programme, but funds have not been released to date. The rehabilitation of the two above-mentioned roads were also proposed to be financed by the Government, but could not start because the available funds were not sufficient to rehabilitate the project roads.

It is estimated that the total cost for rehabilitating the 65 km Mwenda/Kashiba Road is K8 billion. This involves reshaping and re-gravelling, including construction of drainage and drainage structures. The estimated cost for the rehabilitation of the Mukabi/Kawambwa Road is K8.5 billion.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has informed this House that the Danish Government did not release the money for the Mukabi/Kawambwa Road. May the hon. Minister inform this House what has caused this delay?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, let me take advantage of that question to remind the hon. Member of Parliament that this is the consequence of the conduct of you, the politicians, inciting donors to stop giving funds. You are now reaping where you sowed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mulongoti: I would like you to take a message to your colleagues that we should not talk against our own Government and the projects that affect our people. Therefore, if you will continue inciting donors not to bring money, you will pay the same price.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I am delighted that this question has come on the Floor of this debating Chamber.

Laughter

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, in 2008, …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are not debating. Ask a question.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out where the money allocated to the rehabilitation of the Tuta/Kashikishi Road has gone? In 2008, Hon. Musosha said some money had been set aside …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, there is no relationship between the Tuta/Kashikishi Road and the question under discussion. The Tuta Road comes from Serenje Turn Off all the way towards Mansa and the Mansa/Kashikishi Road is a different road. Therefore, it is very difficult for me to help the hon. Member to clear that confusion and provide him with information that is very negligible.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

HIGHRISE BUILDING

43. Colonel Chanda (Kanyama) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) why the highrise building structure at the junction of Katondo Street and Freedom Way has remained incomplete for a long time; and

(b) why the owners of the building structure have not been compelled to complete it.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Muteteka): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the structure in question was originally a property of the Zambia State Insurance Corporation that failed to complete it. It was later sold to a private company which also failed to complete it citing financial constraints as the major contributing factor to the non-completion of the building.

Mr Speaker, the Lusaka City Council (LCC)has written to the new owners to complete the construction of the building and has further indicted the Commissioner of Lands to commence the process of re-entry in an event where the new owners fail to complete the structure.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how long the Government will wait before it gives notice to these people who have failed to complete the building because this building has been outstanding for a long time. In the process of long wait, it killed a mother and her baby. How long should we wait before the Ministry of Lands repossess the plot?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, indeed this particular building has taken long to complete and the Government has been concerned about it. Therefore, the action that the LCC has taken to start the process of repossessing that plot, through the Commissioner of Lands in the Ministry Land, is the right move. In terms of timeframe, the standard procedure is that specific timeframes within which projects should be completed are given once developments are approved. Indeed, I know that the timeframe was not adhered to in this case and that is why LCC has taken it further with the Commissioner of Lands.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, the overhead crane on the building in question are a safety hazard to the people. When is the ministry going to compel the owners to secure it to avoid posing a danger to the people?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, the ministry is working with Lusaka City Council (LCC), which is the planning authority for Lusaka City, to protect the lives of the people and also ensure that this building is completed. It is really an eye-sore.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that the building is an eye-sore and it has been like that for over twenty-five years. How much more time is the ministry willing to give to this process of repossessing or giving it back to the developer to complete the building? Twenty-five years is a very long time.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, as I have already indicated, we have acknowledged that the process has taken long. That is why the Government is working with the office of the Commissioner of Lands to ensure that the building is completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that the problem of this building is the fault of the authorities involved such as the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and LCC for allowing the developer not to include parking space for clients at the planning stage, and yet the plans were approved.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, in a normal process of approval, consideration of parking space and many other things are taken into account. The process starts with the planning authority and, in this case, the planning authority for Lusaka City is the LCC. It begins from there then goes to higher authorities.

With regard to the plans to improve parking space, the current approval process takes into account the issue raised by the hon. Member as well as other considerations because poor designs lead to us having inadequate parking space. Therefore, the planning authority is moving towards ensuring that considerations such as parking space are taken into account when approving designs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, a question that begs an answer is when the re-entry process is going to mature, especially that LCC applied for re-entry more than ninety days ago. I am aware that maturity for re-entry is only ninety days. Can the hon. Minister indicate when the re-entry will actually be finalised?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, the re-entry process has already reached the office of the Commissioner of Lands which is the appropriate authority.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: When?

UNIVERSITY TEACHING HOSPITAL CANCER CENTRE

44. Mr P. P. Chanda asked the Minister of Health:

(a) how many patients were treated at the University Teaching Hospital Cancer Centre since its inception;

(b) how many cancer patients had been referred for treatment outside the country in the period above; and

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, the Cancer Diseases Hospital (CDH), which is located at the University Teaching Hospital, was officially opened on 19th July, 2007 and, since its inception, CDH has treated 4,118 patients.

Sir, since the inception of the CDH, the Government has sent a total of ten cancer patients who had been referred for treatment outside the country. The main reason for this depends on the type of cancer because certain types of cancer such as liver cancer or thyroid tumours which require a high dose of radioactive iodine require specialised surgery.

Mr Speaker, cancer patients are treated at no cost. You may wish to know that it costs, on average, US$3,000 to treat one cancer patient curatively with six months of chemotherapy and six weeks of radiotherapy. The cancer patients are still being treated at CDH at no cost and the Government is meeting the cost of chemotherapy and radiotherapy.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr P. P. Chanda: Mr Speaker, how much money has the Government saved from sending cancer patients outside the country for treatment?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I do not have the figures.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister why it takes long to give appointments to cancer patients to see the doctors.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I am not sure what the hon. Member is talking about, but I know that we have a number of people at the CDH and expect the numbers to surge even more. At the moment, we believe that we are only treating a tip of the iceberg because we have not yet ventured the rural areas. We are aware that we have been besieged by a big number of people. I really do not know what she is referring to. The people at the CDH are working very hard to ensure that everyone who is brought before them is attended to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Speaker, what does the ministry do when the chemotherapy medicines runs out at the UTH? What mechanisms have been put in place to ensure that the patients are taken care of?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, at the moment, medicines for cancer patients are kept in two locations, namely UTH and CDH. Hon. Members of Parliament may wish to know that cancer patients are first diagnosed at UTH, then referred to the CDH. It is the doctors at UTH who discover that a person has cancer. What used to happen in the past was that, before a patient was referred to CDH, treatment started at UTH and, so, UTH still keeps chemicals used for treating cancer. In a situation where CDH runs out drugs, it always gets from UTH.

However, UTH still stocks chemicals that are used for treating cancer. When CDH ran out of chemicals, they always got them from UTH, but this is no longer the case. Initially, there was a problem in that we were not too sure of what kind of cancer diseases we were going to face. At the time we were not well stocked with drugs but, starting this year, we are very well stocked with drugs and we do not expect a situation where we might not have a drug that is required.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Hon. Member for Chipangali is standing up like a palm tree.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: That is not the way we do it.

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Ajembe ndiwe walenga.

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, of the 4,000 patients that have been treated at the cancer centre, can the hon. Minister tell us, how many are foreign nationals and how much they are paying?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, with regard to segregation, I do not have the answer, but all the patients who have been to CDH have been treated free of charge.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, in view of the apparent upward surge in the number of patients seeking medical treatment at the centre, may the hon. Minister tell the House what steps the Government intends to take to ensure that the centre is adequately manned by professionally qualified people.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, steps have been taken to increase the number of clinicians at the hospital. Initially, the establishment was small, but when the hospital saw that the problem of cancer in the country was quite big, it decided to increase the establishment. We hope that with the new establishment, there will not be a problem relating to care of patients.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, may I know when the Government is going to construct wards at the cancer hospital for the proper management of cancer diseases.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, if we do not start constructing wards this year then, definitely, we are going to start next year. We have the money. We are just going through the designs after which we are going to start the tender procedure for the construction of wards and houses for people working at the cancer hospital.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, are there any plans to construct another cancer hospital outside Lusaka Province?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, yes, looking at the problem that we are facing at the moment, we are thinking of constructing another cancer hospital outside Lusaka. Countries like Ghana, for example, have five hospitals. So, once we have a full establishment for the cancer hospital, we are thinking of building another cancer hospital somewhere in the country.

I thank you, Sir.
__________

BILLS

THE AGRICULTURAL CREDITS BILL, 210

The Minister of Home Affairs and Acting Leader of Government Business (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Agricultural Credits Bill, 2010. The object of the Bill is to:

(a) establish the Warehouse Licensing Authority and provide for its functions and powers;

(b) facilitate the borrowing of money on the security of charges created on farming stock and other agricultural assets;

(d) provide for the certification of warehouses;

(e) provide for the issuance and negotiation of warehouse receipts …

Mr Daka entered the Chamber.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Lungu: … and the rights conferred by warehouse receipts;

(f) provide for the rights and obligations of warehouse operators;

(g) repeal and replace the Agricultural Credits Act, 1995; and

(h) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Agriculture and Lands. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 14th October, 2010. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Occupational Health and Safety Bill, 2010. The object of the Bill is to:

(a) provide for the establishment of health and safety committees at workplaces and for the health, safety and welfare of persons at work;

(b) provide for the duties of manufacturers, importers and suppliers of articles, devices, items and substances for use at work;

(c) provide for the protection of persons, other than persons at work, against risks to health or safety arising from or in connection with the activities of persons at work; and

(d) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 14th October, 2010. Hon. Members, who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Bretton Woods Agreement (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The object of the Bill is to provide for:

(a) the acceptance of the proposed amendment to the articles of the agreement of the International Monetary Fund to enhance voice and participation in and expand the investment authority of the International Monetary Fund; and

(b) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 14th October, 2010. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

THE CITIZENS ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Citizens Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The object of this Bill is to amend the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act, 2006, so as to:

(a) facilitate the access of the incentives under the Act by targeting citizens, enterprises and cooperatives;

(b) revise the administration of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund; and

I thank you.

THE PROHIBITION AND PREVENTION OF MONEY LAUNDERING (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I beg top present a Bill entitled the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The object of this Bill is to amend the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act, 2001, so as to:

(a) repeal the provisions relating to the disclosure of information of suspicion of money laundering by supervisory authorities and reporting entities;

(b) re-define the functions of the AntiMoney Laundering Investigations Unit: and

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender Matters. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday, 15th October, 2010. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

THE VETERINARY AND PARA-VETERINARY PROFESSIONS BILL, 2010

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Veterinary and Para-veterinary Professions Bill, 2010. The objects of this Bill are to:

(a) establish the Veterinary Association of Zambia;

(b) continue the existence of the Veterinary Board of Zambia and rename it as the Veterinary Council of Zambia;

(c) provide for the registration of veterinary and para-veterinary professionals and regulate their professional conduct;

(d) provide for the licensing of laboratories and animal health facilities;

(e) provide for the recognition and approval of training programmes for veterinary and para-veterinary professionals;

(f) repeal and replace the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1964; and

(g) provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE FINANCIAL INTELLIGENCE CENTRE BILL, 2010

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Financial Intelligence Centre Bill, 2010. The objects of this Bill are to:

(a) establish the Financial Intelligence Centre and provide for its functions and powers;

(b) provide for duties of supervisory authorities and reporting entities; and

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE ANTI CORRUPTION BILL, 2010

Mr Lungu: I beg to present a Bill entitled the Anti Corruption Bill, 2010. The objects of this Bill are to:

(a) continue the existence of the Anti-Corruption Commission and provide for its powers and functions;

(b) provide for the prevention, detection, investigation, prosecution and punishment of corrupt practices and related offences;

(c) bring the law into conformity with the provisions of the regional and international conventions to which Zambia is a State party;

(d) repeal and replace the Anti-Corruption Commission Act, 1996; and

(e) provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

THE LANDS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010

The Minister of Lands (Ms Lundwe): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Lands (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The object of this Bill is to amend the Lands Act so as to:

(a) repeal the provisions relating to the Lands Tribunal; and

(b) provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Delegated Legislation.

The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 13th October, 2010.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

THE LANDS AND DEEDS REGISTRY (Amendment) BILL, 2010

The Minister of Lands (Ms Lundwe): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Lands and Deeds Registry (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The object of the Bill is to amend the Lands and Deeds Registry Act.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Delegated Legislation. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 13th October, 2010.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

THE LANDS TRIBUNAL (Amendment) BILL, 2010

Ms Lundwe: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Lands (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The object of the Bill is to amend the Lands Act.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: There is a correction to be made. It should be the Lands Tribunal now. Could you redo it, hon. Minister, the Lands Tribunal.

Ms Lundwe: Sorry, Sir, these people are confusing me.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: It is VJ!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister will not pay attention to them. Carry on with your good work.

Laughter

Ms Lundwe: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Lands Tribunal. The objects of this Bill are:

(a) to continue the existence of the Lands Tribunal;

(b) provide for powers and functions of the Lands Tribunal; and

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands to the Committee on Delegated Legislation. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 13th October, 2010.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

I thank you.

THE HOUSING (Statutory and Improvement Areas) (Amendment) BILL, 2010.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Housing (Statutory and Improvement Areas) (Amendment) Bill, 2010 so as to:

(a) empower a person aggrieved with a decision of the Minister or a registrar to apply to the Lands Tribunal for determination;

(b) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Local Governance, Human Rights and Chiefs Affairs. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 13th October, 2010.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

_______________

MOTION

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEEMEMBERSHIP

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the following hon. Members of Parliament do constitute the Public Accounts Committee for the Fifth Session of the Tenth National Assembly:

Mr E. M. Hachipuka, MP;
Mr H. H. Hamududu, MP;
Mrs A. C. K. Mwamba, MP;
Mr L. M. Mwenya, MP;
Mr V. Mwale, MP;
Mr B. Y. Mwila, MP;
Mr E. M. Munaile, MP;
Mr P. Sichamba, and
Mr C. Mulenga, MP.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I am confident that with the precedent that the previous committee set, the persons being proposed to constitute the Public Accounts Committee for the Fifth Session of the Tenth National Assembly will do even better. I know that the work of the Committee is by and large, depent upon the input from the Office of the Auditor-General. I wish to retaliate that the Office of the Auditor-General will continue to provide support to the Committee through its submission of various reports on the utilisation of public resources. The Committee will also be better and timely informed by the Auditor-General following the reorganisation of operations in that office.

Sir, some of the notable changes that have taken place include the establishment of specialised units which should be producing specialised reports such as performance, information technology and environmental audits. The office has also established offices in all provincial headquarters. Undoubtedly, this will result in more reports and, as such, the committee has to rise to the challenge to effectively carry out its mandate. It is the desire of the Government to ensure transparency and accountability in the utilisation of public resources. In this regard, the Government has put in place various measures to ensure efficient public financial management.

As you may well recall, various shortcomings were highlighted in the last meeting of the House through different reports by your Committee such as the reports on the Roads Development Agency (RDA), parastatal bodies and, indeed, the main report of the Committee. The Government has taken note of the recommendations contained in the reports and will ensure that corrective measures are taken. Some of the measures being undertaken have been extensively reported in the press such as the sending away of some managers at the RDA and forced leave to pave way for further investigations.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Prior to this, both boards at the RDA and National Roads Fund Agency (NRFA) were dissolved.

Mr Speaker, you may wish to note that the Government is in the last phase of preparing the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP). In order for this plan to succeed, it is important that we ensure prudent utilisation of resources. In this regard, the Government will continue with the effective implementation of public financial management reforms such as the Public Expenditure Management and Financial Accountability (PEMFA) and the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS). These measures, with the support of the Auditor-General and the National Assembly, will optimise the efficient use of public resources. I, therefore, wish to implore the Public Accounts Committee that will be constituted for this session to take a keen interest in the measures that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is putting in place to improve financial management and provide the necessary advice.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I wish the Public Accounts Committee for the Fifth Session of the Tenth National Assembly all the best and wish to encourage it to carry out its duties in a diligent, faithful, effective and efficient manner.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, thank you for ...

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I had just started contributing to the debate on the Motion of the membership to constitute the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) for the Fifth Session of the Tenth National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, in supporting this Motion I would like to start by saying that I have been in this House for sometime now and have seen several PACs being constituted. They work very hard to look at the task that they are given.

Mr Speaker, PAC is very important because it is mandated to scrutinise the operations of the Executive by way of scrutinising the Auditor-General’s findings which are eventually brought to the House. Year after year, the House appropriates funds which are misapplied by line ministries and spending agencies without remorse. It is, therefore, unfortunate to note that the issues reported by the Auditor-General and whose salient features are highlighted by PAC are futile because most of the culprits go scot-free. The Auditor General’s report which used to be small in volume has now increased in size because of the many issues that have been coming out.

Mr Speaker, spending agencies and line ministries do not show any seriousness in trying to follow what is stipulated on the norms and practices to be followed in the running the finances of this country. Every time the report is published, I do not see any change. This could be owed to the fact that PAC has no teeth to bite, hence the Permanent Secretaries and wanting officers going scot-free. Is there any value for money in producing a report that the committee scrutinises when, at the end of the day, nothing happens?

Maybe, it is time that the Executive showed seriousness and ensured that action is taken once the constituted PAC comes up with a report based on the Auditor-General’s Report. If it requires that people be fired or that they go to prison, then so be it. Why should politicians be the only ones to go to prison and not the Permanent Secretaries and other officers found wanting?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: It is important that wanting officers are brought to book if they do not follow the norms and practices.

Mr Speaker, I have seen that, at times, culprits are even promoted. Somebody may be said to have misapplied funds, but we see them being promoted the following year. It is important that we show seriousness by ensuring that the names that will be highlighted in the reports are scrutinised seriously and if found wanting on one aspect, they be seriously followed up. If we do not follow up these people, it will defeat the whole purpose of the Auditor-General going round to see where funds are misapplied.

Sir, it is time the Executive acted. This year, I expect to see action taken on the report that will be submitted by the constituted Committee. When action is seen, it will deter other people from misapplying funds. While I know that the people constituting this committee, at the moment, are the best, if reports are not followed up by action, even the whole purpose of the work of a committee from space would be defeated.

So, as I agree that the committee be constituted by the proposed names, I emphasise that its reports be followed by action. We want to see results and determine whether this Government is action-oriented and law abiding. If it is not, we will not see results and will continue spending tax payers’ money without any result.

Mr Speaker, the people out there are watching. They have been seeing the Auditor-General’s Report because it is a public document and they wonder because, every time, issues are brought out, no action is taken. Is there a problem? If the Government has a problem, we would like to know so that PAC should stop wasting time producing a report that is not acted upon.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, from the outset, let me say that I support the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Mr V. Mwale: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, PAC is an important committee. It works hand in hand with the office of the Auditor-General and faces many challenges.

Mr Speaker, I would like the nation to understand some terms which are brought out in the Auditor-General’s Report and magnified by PAC. An economy like Zambia cannot run away from misapplication and misappropriation of funds. There is no one who can claim the ability to ensure that these things do not happen.

Mr Speaker, for example, the death of the late Republican President was not budgeted for, but as long as you spend before Parliament appropriates, it is misappropriation.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: This can be done away with if the Ministry of Finance and National Planning did away with ceilings. The problems of misapplication and misappropriation emanate from these ceilings which are applied due to the lack of adequate funds.

Mr Speaker, in most cases, when a spending agency requests for a particular amount for activities with known demands, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has the final say. This is because it determines how much can be released according to what the budget can allow. Therefore, given a Permanent Secretary who is under pressure to spend because, maybe, a line such as administration has run dry and he or she decides to use funds of an inactive line with the aim to appropriate these amounts at a later stage, this cannot be termed as misappropriation. These issues have to be understood.

If we feel that these guys are stealing or that they are doing other things. You will find that …

Mr Speaker: Order! The word ‘guys’ is unparliamentary.

Mr Shakafuswa: If we feel that these officials are misusing or abusing money, that is wrong. There is a need to categorise these issues.

Mr Speaker, yes, there are times when people actually steal and abuse resources. There have been instances where an officer gets retirable imprest and does not retire within the stipulated time. That is wrong and such officers have to be taken to book.

Mr Speaker, sometimes, an officer may get money and instead of following laid procurement procedures, they take short cuts and procure goods which are of less value than the stated purchase price or of inferior quality. In such instances, there is no excuse and people found wanting should be brought to book.

Mr Speaker, at other times, officers bend procurement procedures and this is very rife. For instance, when a contract is advertised, procedures are laid down, but when auditing the end product, you find that it would have been bent to an extent of allowing a person who should not have qualified to have done so. Those are issues that we should condemn. However, we should not just apply a blanket condemnation.

Mr Speaker, it may be tempting to say that a given amount has been misapplied or misappropriated because a given action may look like an offence, but you would need to be a Permanent Secretary to understand the pressures of these offices. It is only then that you can suggest that, maybe, more money be made available for lines which the spending agencies are supposed to use.

Mr Speaker, indeed, this Committee is very important because it plays an oversight role on Government operations. However, it has to be made known that every administration world over requires budget supplements from time to time. Supplementary expenditure legalises the expenditure which has been made outside what is appropriated by Parliament. Therefore, when people spend outside Parliament’s appropriations, it is wrong.

Hon. Lubinda, when you spend outside Parliament, what is that called? Misapplication?

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, the point I am trying to advance is that as much as the terminologies …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Katuba will not refer to individual hon. Members because that constitutes engagement in dialogue in the House which is not allowed.

Mr Shakafuswa: I thank you, Mr Speaker. I was just trying to ask the House to give me the right terminology.

Mr Speaker, this Committee is very important because it looks at the rules of engagement with regard to how our finances are supposed to be managed. Yes, the Committee is supposed to bring out these shortcomings. However, in most instances where this happens, you find that the money said to have been misapplied and misappropriated would have still gone to the running of the Government. The only difference being that it would have gone to an activity for which it was not initially intended. Therefore, how do you refer to an instance where an officer gets money from the Office of the Vice–President to attend to an unforeseen disaster in Kanyama, which if not attended to may lead to a cholera break out, as misapplication of funds?

You find that the activity on which money is spent is acceptable. If that was not done, someone was going to ask why it was not done? We must bear in mind that a budget is just an estimation or a plan of how money is to be spent. Even companies have budgets but, later on, shift from their budgetary provisions to suit the actual commitments on the ground.

Mr Speaker, in short, I am saying this Committee is very important although there are people who want to criminalise issues that are not criminal. We should not criminalise every decision that is made by the controlling officers. However, it is wrong for somebody to use authority to shift funds because they know that they are going to benefit. There are situations where shifting of budgetary allocations is done in the best interest of Zambians. I think that should be acceptable although not encouraged. The Committee is right by going against the budgetary guidelines is wrong because it will instil discipline and remind controlling officers of their obligation in managing the affairs of this country properly.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr V. Mwale: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to the debate in support of this Motion. From the outset, I would like to say that there can be no excuse, whatsoever, for spending public resources outside the law. The law provides for how public resources have to be spent. The financial regulation is very clear on how public funds are to be spent.

Sir, we are talking about an important aspect of governance of this nation. That is, the utilisation of public resources. Let me say that the development of this nation can only be premised on the utilisation of our own resources.

Mr Speaker, yesterday, one hon. Member, on the Floor of this House, said, “God must be an Englishman”. He said this was because the Whiteman appears to be doing the correct things.

Sir, let me remind this House that 500 years ago, the economies of Africa and the Western world were more or less the same. 200 years ago or in the 1800s, the difference between our economies and those of the Western countries, specifically America, was very small. For example, the gross national product for America was US$1,200 while that of Africa was about a third at US$400.

Mr Speaker, what has happened over the last 200 years is that the gross domestic product (GDP) growth rate for America is at an average of 1.7 per cent compared to that of Africa which is about point .7 per cent giving a 1 per cent difference. This has resulted in the phenomenal difference of the Americans being about twenty-five times richer than Africans. The reason for this is that these developed countries were able to better utilise their resources.

Sir, this does not only involve the financial resources, but also the natural resources. In talking about mineral resources, I would like to refer to a story that appeared in the publication called Asian Age. This is an Indian publication and it talks about what is happening in India as follows:

“An India ministerial panel has approved a mining Bill that will see mining companies share 26 per cent of their profit with the local population of the communities affected by the mining companies …”

Mr Chilembo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, I need your guidance. Is it in order for the House to engage in a general cross-country debate when the Motion relates to membership of the Public Accounts Committee?

Mr Speaker: The point of order that has been raised by the hon. Deputy Minister of Justice has merit in it. The Chair also realises that in debating this Motion, hon. Members may refer to experiences that may help the in-coming Committee perform its duties properly. In so guiding, the hon. Member debating should actually tell the House whether or not he approves of this membership. That is what we are here for. The opportunity to debate matters of the economy will be coming fairly shortly as you will realise. For today, let the House pronounce itself on the list that is designed to compose the Public Accounts Committee.

The hon. Member for Luena may continue, but bearing that guidance in mind.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Sir, I stated from the outset that I approve of the membership of Your Committee.

For the benefit of the hon. Member, let me say that Zambia’s governance speaks of separation of powers. In terms of separation of powers, the Government has four specific roles. These are legislation, representation, appropriation and holding the Executive accountable in the manner it utilises the resources. It is through this particular aspect that Parliament exercises this role in terms of public finance through the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr Speaker, proper utilisation of public resources is key to the development of this country. Therefore, the membership that constitutes the Public Account Committee, such as the one I have just supported, must play this role effectively in order to hold the Executive to account in order that Parliament might play its effective role.

Sir, this Committee is not for those who seek favours from the Executive.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: It is not for those who seek jobs or adoption at the next election.

Mr Mulongoti: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. The hon. Member debating is the one who caused an unnecessary by-election recently. Is that a careful way of looking after funds? Is he in order to debate in that manner?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Works and Supply, through that point of order, wants to disorient the debate by the hon. Member for Luena.

May he continue, please.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, I thank you for the protection.

Sir, as a president of a political party, we are aware of minor functionaries who want to derail us.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, we forgive them.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, of tremendous worry to all of us, who ask for the proper utilisation of public resources, is lack of Executive action on the reports of the Public Accounts Committees.

All too often, the Auditor-General’s Office performed its functions very well. When its Report is presented, the Public Accounts Committee does its work very well and produces reports that this House adopts. The follow-up action is that the Executive must indicate to this House what actions have been taken through what is called the Action Taken Report Treasury Minutes. We have seen that where the system falls flat on its back, there is the action taken by the Executive. This results in the repetition of so many queries that appear in the Auditor-General’s Report. Year in and year out, we hear about misapplication, misappropriation, embezzlement of funds, delayed banking, and technical theft of projects. These issues will continue as long as there is no decisive action from the Executive. Have we not seen cases where officers cited in the Public Accounts Committee and debated on the Floor of this House, six months later, are promoted to even higher levels. We have examples of this. This, clearly, must come to an end if we all mean to move this country forward.

Mr Speaker, the country continues to lose tremendously in terms of money that is embezzled and misappropriated. I heard the point made by the hon. Member for Katuba that implied that as long as it is Government work, you can apply any funds available to any project. What we are saying is that that, in itself, even though it may not be stealing, shows gross indiscipline and tarnishes the budgeting process as it shows that we have not budgeted properly. If we have budgeted properly, then we must apply the money that is applied to us on the activities for which we ask money. Emergencies will always occur and that is why we have supplementary and contingency expenditure in the Yellow Book. If the contingency fund is exhausted and emergencies still occur, you can always apply for supplementary expenditure. I think that is a very straight forward issue. Since there is no proper follow-up action on what the Public Accounts Committee brings to this House and takes back to the Executive, the country continues to lose vast sums of money through lack of development.

Sir, let me give two examples. Some years back, this House appropriated large sums of money to develop the Mbesuma Bridge which used to connect …

Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi:…Malole Constituency to Chinsali Constituency. To date, …

Mr Munaile: Bwekeshapo, mudala!

Mr Milupi:…if you go there, there is not even a pillar in the middle of Chambeshi River to show where the bridge ought to have been. Resulting from that, many people travelling between Kasama, Chinsala, Nakonde and from Mporokoso still have to go through Mpika, giving the journey an extra distance of 200 km either way. How much money are individual people and the country losing? To date, inspite of that matter having been debated on the Floor of this House and the Report given back to the Executive, there has been no action, not even an indication of who is responsible for robbing the people of that area and this country of so much development that could have taken place.

Mr Speaker, another example is that of the famous Mongu/Kalabo Road. Up to K300 billion has been spent on this road. It is a vital link that would have opened up Kalabo District which, at the moment, is termed as the poorest district in this country. We would have opened it up for development for people to utilise their own resources on activities such as growing rice, keeping cattle and yet, to date, we still do not have that road. It is only brought up as bait on a hook during elections. “We are going to start, we are going to start,” we are told. However, to date, there has been no indication, whatsoever, on which officers are responsible for the continued isolation of Kalabo District from the rest of the country. This is the lack of action that we speak about.

Mr Speaker, there are many other projects, which have been highlighted in the public Accounts Committee Report which I can cite but, suffice to say, because of this lack of action, citizens have lost faith in the ability of the Executive to look after the resources that they give to it, through the Appropriation Bill. Citizens are, more and more, looking to this House to protect their resources. They are looking to this House, through the Public Accounts Committee, and that is why it is important for those members whose names we are debating today to recognise that they have a very serious role to play in protecting the resources of this country.

Mr Speaker, the Auditor-General’s Office which supports the Public Account Committee does wonderful work. It must be supported in every respect and with every ngwee possible. This will strengthen the work of this Parliament, through the Public Accounts Committee, and protect the public resources. Two years ago, their Budget was drastically cut and I hope that his will not happen this year. The functions of the Auditor-General’s Office have been increased. There is value for money and there are environmental audits that it has to carry out. That particular office should not only be supported through donors, but this country must also appropriate resources to make sure that it is supported.

Mr Speaker, we should not fail our citizens. We should look after the resources of this country and it is with this in mind that I fully support the hon. Members whose names appear on that list because they are all honourable. They are people we have worked with in this House and elsewhere and we know that they will make this House and this country proud. We ask you and the Executive to take this Committee seriously to support them and the work of the Auditor-General.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members indicated.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Please take your seats. The impression I get is that there are no contrary views with regard to this Motion. What appears to be the case is that hon. Members want to be heard.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I am not even sure whether this Motion requires that Members speak for 20 minutes. There is no need for that. If I decide to recognise a Member or two to speak, they should promise to undertake the following:

(a) that they are taking the Floor because they disagree with the Motion; and

(b) if they agree, then they should only say this one sentence, “Mr Speaker, I support the Motion and I thank you.”

Laughter

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity to debate the Motion which is on the Floor of the House and I totally oppose it. You may wonder why I am doing that. I remember when I first came to this Parliament in 2006, I was much younger, but now I am more mature and wiser.

The hon. Member for Kabwata enlightened us on the Standing Orders of this House, particularly Standing Order No. 153 which, with your permission, Sir, I wish to quote:

“There shall be a Sessional Committee to designate the Public Accounts Committee consisting of nine members other than the Vice-President, the Minister, the Deputy Minister or any other member appointed or acting in any office prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament appointed by the Assembly at the commencement of every Session. The quorum of the committee shall be four.”

Mr Speaker, I expected the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to declare interest because this committee is supposed to oversee his works.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Phiri: Why have we continued using the wrong procedure when the right thing can be done?

Secondly, 14 per cent of women represent this Parliament. Why should we only have one woman in this committee? The curricula vitae of some men in this committee cannot match that of the women who have been excluded.

Interruptions

Mrs Phiri: This is a fact and I have no apologies for stating it.

Mr Speaker, I do not support this Motion because I want the right thing to be done. In other countries in this region, female parliamentarians represent 50 per cent of their parliaments. We are still talking about 30 per cent just like the President came here and talked about giving us 30 per cent of the land.

Interruptions

Mrs Phiri: We are not interested in being used. Budgeting should start with the women and this is why we should be included in this committee. I was happy when the Committee on Education, Science and Technology included three women. This is good. Why should we have one woman in Public Accounts Committee when we are the ones in-charge of home affairs?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, I do not support this Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, I wish to state that with the backdrop of revenue shortages, mounting expenditures, our wish to develop our country and our quest to move our country forward, it is necessary that we have a Public Accounts Committee for the Fifth Session of the Tenth National Assembly such as the one we are constituting. It is an experienced committee, well-researched and comprises men and woman of integrity. I wish to congratulate the appointing authorities in this regard.

Secondly, I would like to state that this committee, the Auditor-General’s Office and the Accountant General’s Office begins the truthful oversight of Government expenditure. This is where it begins.

Mr Imenda interjected.

Mr Matongo: You can go to Lukulu!

Laughter

Mr Matongo: It begins from that point.

Mr Speaker, this is why we are in this House today debating this particular committee. Various committees have been appointed in this House over a number of years. They have been extremely competent in the delivery of their services. Auditor-Generals and Accountant-Generals have been men and women of high a calibre.

However, there has been a system failure in the governance of this country through various Executives. I hope that system failure, with effect from this particular discussion and this particular committee …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I wonder whether the hon. Member for Pemba is in order to go on talking about things that you have already ruled on, and disregarding your ruling that if a member agrees with a Motion, he should limit himself to only one sentence. Is he in order to disregard your guidance?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Kabwata is wondering how long the sentence that the hon. Member for Pemba wishes to issue will be. How long is the sentence?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

You may continue.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, the system failure must be corrected by practical initiatives. For instance, the structure of the Auditor-General should be improved as the hon. Minister said.

More importantly, however, we need to have practical decisions taken and let the Auditor-General report to Parliament and not to the Executive. We need to stop looking at things the way we usually do. We should strengthen the report by removing it from Presidents and bringing it to Manda Hill. This also goes for other institutions of good governance such as the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) because there is a tendency to protect our own. We will not be protected if such structural changes in the decision-making process of the Executive are not undertaken.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, and following your guidance, Sir …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: …I support the appointment of the eminent men and woman of this committee.

The Minister for Lusaka Province (Mr Shawa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Motion.

Mr Speaker, since you have already guided and most hon. Members have already supported this Motion, I just wish to state that the culture of wanton condemnation of good and well-meaning things that are being done, and which are for the benefit of our country, should be done away with.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Shawa: Mr Speaker, this is very important. This Committee has done a lot. Where people have done well, we must learn to express our gratitude and show appreciation. People may not do everything well, but it is only fair and godly to say thank you.

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister who is debating in order to claim that this committee has done well when it is being constituted today?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Kantanshi is raising a technical question. There may be continuity, but this is actually a new committee being formulated.

The hon. Minister for Lusaka Province may continue.

Mr Shawa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your protection.

I am saying this because I have taken cognisance of the fact that most hon. Members who are on this Committee have performed in the previous Committee. I, therefore, would like to say that I support this Motion. It is important for people to learn to say thank you. It is not only this particular Committee that we should thank. There are many other committees that we should appreciate. Many people in this nation have done good things and I am saying that the culture of condemning people who have done well must stop. I wish to reiterate that this Committee has done well.

Mr Speaker, when a parent has done well for his children, they will thank him and he will be happy. When a parent says thank you to his children, they will also be happy.

Mr Speaker, even you, Sir, when we stand up …

Laughter

Mr Shawa: … we say thank you to you because we appreciate. I know that we are not supposed to debate ourselves, but I support the Motion.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members will do everything possible to avoid bringing the Chair into their debates.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

It is not allowed.

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, I am one of those who are objecting this Motion on the basis that, going by the Standing Orders, we have been made to believe that the composition of these committees go on the lines of balancing of political parties and gender …

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Ms Mwape: … as one of the qualifications.

Sir, I have seen a situation where some members of this Committee have been in this committee since inception. Even if they have performed very well, are we saying there is nobody else who can do better? How are we going to know if there are others who can do better than them if we do not try them?

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Ms Mwape: There is only on woman in this Committee, and yet this Parliament has only few back benchers. Are you saying that all these women cannot do better than the men that are there?

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, I am so worried that we have women who are put in one committee and are changed from one committee every year. Are we saying that these particular women who are moved from one committee to another every year are not good enough? I was of the opinion that probably they were changed from one committee to the other because they needed to be exposed. Are these the only ones that need to be exposed? Do these other men and women not need that exposure?

Mr Speaker, there are so many questions that are raising a lot of suspicions in the selection of your committees.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, they are your committees and might bring your name into in disrupt as you may be accused of favouritism.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, we have heard before …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Mufulira shall withdraw the word ‘favouritism’ at once.

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘favouritism’ and I wish to continue by saying that if the same people or certain people are constantly placed in certain committees - I will call a spade a spade …

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Ms Mwape: If certain people are placed in committee that sit more frequently than others, there is a likelihood that many people might view that the members of these committees are put in these particular committees for a particular purpose that might benefit them and that is not good for this august House as it is bringing the hon. Mr Speaker’s name into disrepute because that is not the case at all.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Mufulira is running into very deep and dangerous waters.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let me just guide her and the rest who may feel the same way that each time the presiding officer, that is myself, announces the membership of the committee, you will notice that we cite the necessary authority that enables the Standing Orders Committee to come up with the names that are announced here.

With regard to this Committee, you have to locate it in the Republican Constitution. This is the only committee that is mentioned in the Constitution. It is important. The composition of this committee is not a personal to holder, but a National Public Accounts Committee. There are reasons given for one gender not constituting 50 per cent of what is the percentage of the other gender. I do not know if the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will give reasons as to why, for instance, committees do not have 50 per cent men and 50 per cent women. Therefore, the hon. Member for Mufulira, I do not feel any sense of disrepute in the manner these committees are constituted. Such imputations are incorrect. The hon. Member for Mufulira may continue if she has more to say.

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for the guidance.

Sir, when one qualifies to be a Member of Parliament, he/she qualifies to be a member of any committee of Parliament and qualifies to be appointed as hon. Ministers regardless of their qualifications. The qualification is that they are hon. Members of Parliament and they are backbenchers.

Mr Speaker, if gender is of essence and material as I know it is then, all women should be considered fairly and equitably. I do not see the point of putting one woman in three committees and others in one. Please, Sir, my appeal to whoever is responsible for this is that whilst there are always authorities that give them the powers to do what they have to do, the Constitution as you named it, there is what is called prosperity and it is the best judge.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to wind up the Motion. I also want to tank all hon. Members who contributed to this debate.

Mr Speaker, I just wish to take a few moments to respond to some of the issues that have been raised starting with the fact that it has been said that year after year, the volume of report from the Auditor-General is increasing.

Sir, there are a number of ways of interpreting this. Certainly, one of those is the reflection of this Government’s support to the Office of the Auditor-General. As a result o this support, what is happening is that auditors have more resources, time and more geographical space to do their work and, therefore, they are doing what they have been hired to do to bring out a lot issues.

It may be incorrect and superficial to interpret this as saying that the amount of abuse in the country is getting worse. If anything, I would congratulate the Government for this commitment to strengthen the Office of the Auditor-General and come up with more and more issues. As a Government, we are happy with that because it gives us the opportunity to work on these issues. Please, do not conclude by saying things are getting worse.

Sir, in addition, there has been a wrong impression created that nothing is done against people who do wrongs in the financial sector. Every day, we see reports in the press, including this morning, about action that Government takes to deal with those who have gone against the financial regulations.

Sir, having said that, sometimes there are high expectations that because something has been cited by the Auditor-General, then immediately what follows is the arrest or imprisonment of the person involved. I do not believe that is the way things work in Government. You will be the first people to come back and say, the rule of law has not been followed. So, what I am saying is that, when cases are cited, the due process of investigations and prosecutions where it is found to be justifiable do start. We have many examples of people who have been prosecuted. Therefore, it is not true to say that nothing is being done.

Sir, as a result of what has been said, I believe that a wrong impression is emerging, suggesting that there is wanton abuse of public resources. Earlier this morning, a colleague cautioned me against playing to the gallery, perhaps because we want to please donors or voters. Playing to the gallery can be very dangerous. One of those dangers is the one that I have already cited. In the end we are all losing out because the money for roads and other projects is being withheld. This is the fruit that we get by exaggerating things.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, and yet we know that year in year out, hon. Members of Parliament praise Government on the number of schools, clinics, hospitals and roads that are being constructed, including the works on the Kalabo/Mongu Road which are about to start.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Now, Mr Speaker, what you see from this is that, there may be abuses sometimes, but please, be moderate. These are fringes, but the big picture is that Government is doing a wonderful job using citizens’ money to do the roads, hospitals and clinics. All I have heard is lots and lots of praises for these infrastructure projects that are being constructed.

The conclusion out of this is that, even though there are people on the fringes who abuse public resources, the bulk of the government resources are being spent on doing good things for the people good which the Zambian public is appreciating.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: Gender!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, let me caution my colleagues that when they exaggerate the fringes to create an impression that the whole country is in chaos and that there is no proper public accountability of resources, all they are doing is to hurt their brothers, mothers and themselves.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, my final comment is this …

Mrs Phiri: Gender!

Dr Musokotwane: My final comment before talking about gender is …

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: … that, I would like to support my colleague, the hon. Minister of Works and Supply who indicated about the need for public resources to develop this country. Of course, Hon. Milupi also indicated that, in the absence of that, the development of the country slows down.

However, I want to re-emphasise the point that, indeed, theft of public resources is one area that can slow down development, but it is also true that unwise use of public resources like forcing of by-elections when there is no need for that …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … also slows down development.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: Chilanga!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, if you go around the countryside and see the number of schools and hospitals that we still have to build, clearly, if you are a conscientious person, you should ask yourself the question: Is it better for K4 billion to be used for a by-election or it being used for development?

Mrs Phiri: Chilanga!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, I believe that as hon. Members of Parliament, we all have a responsibility both under the law and the moral sense which we can not run away from with regard to asking ourselves how best we utilise the resources of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: This is why even the people sitting at the National Constitution Conference (NCC) agreed that presidential by-elections should be avoided. Why? It is because they cost unnecessarily so much money.

Mrs Phiri: Kafulafuta and Chilanga!

Dr Musokotwane: I believe that we need to be very careful in the way we use public resources. It is not just about picking one piece of paper, but also about examining ourselves on how we use public resources in a broader context.

Finally, on gender, Mr Speaker, I believe a lot of thought was taken in constituting this committee including all the various parameters as dictated by our legislation.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: I wish, Mr Speaker, that if only there was 50 per cent representation of women in this House, then the concerns that were raised earlier would be addressed. We would have been very happy to address them. Unfortunately, the number of women by count in this House is very few. So, under the circumstances, this is the best we could do. I am very happy that on this committee at least there is one woman. I think we have satisfied that requirement.

Mr Speaker, once again, I want to thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Female Members: Division!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I have only seen two calling for a division.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Twelve is the minimum requirement.

Question put and agreed to.

MOTION OF THANKS

(Debate resumed)

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the Presidential Speech. May I start by joining the President to send my heartfelt condolences to our late colleagues, Hon. Benson Bwalya and Hon. Chibombamilimo. I worked very closely with Hon. Chibombamilimo in the Committee on Education, Science and Technology. We popularly used to call him abena fyalo.

Hon. Members: Meaning what?

Mrs Phiri: Foreigners.

Laughter

Mrs Phiri: We used to enjoy his company. Therefore, I send my heartfelt condolences to his family and may the good Lord be with them in this time of mourning.

Mr Speaker, I will start my speech by first referring to the NCC on which a lot has been said. As I stand here, I feel proud to have listened to the people of Munali, my electorates, who stopped me from going to the NCC. Why do I say so? Are those who went to the NCC feeling as proud as I am? In the Presidential Speech, there was nothing which was referring to the NCC. What does that mean? It means that we are not going to have a new Constitution in 2011. Definitely, as the Patriotic Front (PF) and our partners take over this Government, we are going to give the people a constitution they deserve because we will know that we are not going to be in Government forever.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, how does it feel, especially facing the people of Zambia whose money was misused for nothing? People just went there to get money. Why did the President not talk about the Constitution when he came to this House?

Interruptions

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, yes, you can travel, but I am still young I will travel more.

Laughter

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, during the last Session, they were some Bills which were passed in this House, but most of the Bills which were brought by the Private Members although they were good were shot down. Are we serving the people of Zambia or we are serving the political parties we belong to? My colleagues, when the Bills which are intended for the good of the people of Zambia are brought to this House, let us support them because we will not be in these seats forever. Most of us here already have grand children who are going to blame us when visit our graves. They will be whipping at our graves for the wrong thing we did.

Mr Speaker, may I go further to congratulate you for the parliamentary reforms you have taken to our constituencies. I pray that before we end this Session, this Constituency Development Fund (CDF), if it can be directed straight to our constituencies as you have done with the reforms which have instilled fear in the cadres. I can give an example of what happened in my constituency. Can you imagine, the MMD cadres went to my constituency at the constituency office and put up an MMD chitenge, but within seconds the police from this Parliament went to the office and removed it. That is the way you are supposed to work. We are having problems in our constituencies that is why I am saying that I hope before we end this Session, this CDF can be directed straight to our constituencies so that these cadres are able to see that the money is intended for the people.

Mr Speaker, can you imagine that even with this constituency money which is talked about in my constituency in Chakunkhula, we had children who were drowning in boreholes and wells. All this happened right here in the capital city, Lusaka. Forty-six years after independence, children are still drowning in wells. They also have no toilets. We decided to use part of the CDF to construct boreholes and toilets. Believe you me, MMD cadres were sent to my constituency to come and disrupt the work which was supposed to benefit our people. As I am speaking, we have put aside money which is supposed to be used to drill the boreholes and toilets, but the work has been stopped with no shame at all. Are we serving the people of Zambia? My prayer through you, Mr Speaker, is for these reforms to make it possible for the constituency money to go directly to our constituencies. I am sure such a situation will greatly help us.

Mr Speaker, may I now talk about agriculture because even though I represent an urban constituency, I am sure everybody knows that I hail from a village in Chinsali while my children from Petauke in Musanzala Constituency. I have received messages from Musazala Constituency that the people there have failed to send their children to school because the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) has received maize from these poor peasant farmers, but not paid them. A lot of people were raised in villages, but because there was free education that is why they are even part of this House. However, because there were good agricultural policies then, peasant farmers were able to send their children to school who later became graduates.

Mr Speaker, just because we went to the university we have even forgotten where we are coming from. We have put up new hostels at the University of Zambia because we think everybody has money. I feel ashamed. Are we not ashamed to see big women and men crying on our television because they have not been given what is due to them and we call this country a Christian nation? If you were a Christian, you would follow what the Bible says when it tells us to pay what is due to our people. So, please, let us take the agricultural sector seriously because most of us were educated by our parents who were peasant farmers.

Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member for Msanzala has heard that his people are crying for money. I hope he is going to do something about it.

Laughter

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, let me talk a bit about tourism. We cannot talk about tourism because we do not have a national airline in Zambia. We only have Zambezi Airlines which is a private one. I was shocked to read in the newspaper of our president talking about Turkish Airlines coming here. Why can we not support our local airline, Zambezi Airlines? What are we doing to help it so that it can expand? If the Government officials who travel outside use Zambezi Airlines, we are going to feel proud because it is our own. Support your local airline. Our children are flying to different destinations as cabin attendants. I used to be a cabin attendant.

Interruptions

Mrs Phiri: I feel proud when our own pilots are flying aeroplanes. Do you not feel proud? Surely, why should we support other countries to fly into Zambia while we neglect our own local airline? I hope the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources is going to look into this issue. I have confidence that she will because she is a woman. Women always work to deliver.

Mr Speaker, let me also talk about our ministry which concerns Gender in Development Division (GIDD). I was shocked when the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda came to talk about the 30 per cent of land that was given to us. I was expecting that this time GID was going to be a ministry and not a department.

Our hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development is working very hard and, for the first time, we have received a hammer mill from her department. The Government should turn this department into a ministry that will have its own budget. I feel the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government, or mwadya mweka dollar Government, is taking women in this country for granted. You want to use us when it suits you and make pronouncements that do not translate to action on the ground.

Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member will address the Chair. If you address them, they will heckle you and then you will lose your direction. Address the Chair.

Mrs Phiri: I thank you for your guidance, Mr Speaker. As a woman who supports gender equality, I feel we are being used. Just today, there was only one woman on the Committee presented by the hon. Minister …

Mr Speaker: Order!

If you read your guidelines, you will find that it is unprocedural to refer, in this House, to a matter which has already been resolved. Move on.

The hon. Member for Munali may continue.

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance and I will move on.

Mr Speaker, I would now like to talk about infrastructure development which is very important to this country. When I was singing about the K48 billion, which was meant to work on roads in my constituency, having disappeared in thin air, people thought I was joking. The Government released money for the rehabilitation of the road that passes through Chainda compound and Zambia Air Force (ZAF) 16 area all the way up to Avondale. This road has been abandoned and the machinery has since moved to another constituency. Can the hon. Minister responsible, please, update me on what is going on.

Mr Speaker, there have been claims of schools being constructed. Munali Constituency has the oldest school in the country called Munali Secondary School. This is the only school in Zambia which takes care of blind children. I have been singing about this Government giving us a solar panel or generator for the school. Physically challenged children use sign language to communicate and I am sure that when there are power outages, which have not spared anybody this is country, they fail to communicate and end up fighting. My constituency has not benefited from the construction of new schools. I acknowledge the construction of the new hospital which was moved from Chongwe to Munali Constituency, but we need to maintain old structures. We should not just concentrate on new ones and neglect the old ones because this will ruin them.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you. {mospagebreak}

Dr Musonda (Chitambo): Mr Speaker, with your permission, I would like to move to another microphone because I cannot see you. I am being obstructed by the elephant tusk.

Laughter

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this privileged opportunity to say a few words on the speech which was delivered to this House by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia. I have listened to a number of my colleagues who have spoken before me and I would want to share with them what this Government is doing in Chitambo.

Mr Speaker, you may realise that I have just been in this House for about a year. At the time I was campaigning to come to this House, I promised certain things that would be done in Chitambo in terms of development. I clearly mentioned, at that time, that I would align myself to the policies of the Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: I even mentioned that I would definitely make sure that the developmental policies in my constituency were in line with those of the Government because that is the only way people were going to see development. If I made parallel structures, I would definitely not be able to get anything accomplished.

Mr Speaker, I am made to believe that is the reason some hon. Members of Parliament keep crying that there is no development in their constituencies because they have misplaced their priorities and are not in line with the Government’s policies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: Let me quickly mention the few things that are happening in my constituency in relation to the President’s speech. Thereafter, I will quickly touch on a few other issues which are affecting the nation.

Mr Speaker, in as much as I sympathise with the earlier speaker who talked about roads in her area not being worked on, I think what is happening in Chitambo is different. I am proud to mention that this Government has done a very good job there.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: As you pass through the Serenje/Mansa Road or Mukando turnoff to Mansa, the road is very beautiful. It cuts right across my constituency and people in Chitambo are very happy. At the moment, there are graders on the feeder road between Chalile and David Livingstone Memorial, which is twenty-seven kilometres, and they are doing a very good job. That road has not been rehabilitated for a very long time and people are very happy with what this Government is doing. There is another fifteen- kilometre feeder road in the area that is going to be worked on. The passage of this year’s bumper harvest of maize to satellite depots has been made very easy with these developments.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, just last year, I mentioned to this House that the biggest problem that was being faced by the people of Chitambo was that of phone network connectivity. Now, I can proudly announce that, with the help of the Zambia Communications Authority, now called Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA), I think we will receive two towers and there soon will be phone network in Chitambo. The people are extremely happy with this development.

Mr Speaker, when my colleague the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central came to Chitambo for campaigns, last year, he crossed the river using a very small banana boat, which has since gone missing, …

Laughter

Dr Musonda: … to get to Rueben Island. I am proud to mention here that we now have a pontoon in place and, very soon, vehicles will be crossing the river to get to the very remote part of the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Tell Guy Scott.

Dr Musonda: I invite him to go there again and he will be able to cross the river in his vehicle.

Mr V. Mwale: Bwekeshapo!

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, in terms of health infrastructure in the constituency, I am very proud, again, to mention to this House that the long awaited Chitambo Nursing School, which has been closed for a long time, is ear marked for opening. It was even mentioned in your Committee’s report, which was adopted in this House, that after inspecting the works in January, there was a lot of progress. It is my sincere hope that the amount which was budgeted for this in 2010 will be quickly released by the Ministry of Health so that we see the school opening by January, next year.

Mr Speaker, Rueben Island, which I mentioned earlier, was inaccessible for a long time, but it will soon have a very good health post. Works on the health post are progressing well and at a very fast rate. We have also upgraded the health centre in Chitambo which is known as Mpelembe into a zonal referral centre. It is just on the road side and was a very small centre. With the good communication network and an ambulance in Serenje, people are extremely happy. So, sometimes, it baffles me to hear others say that they do not see these developments. I am meant to believe that others want to close their eyes and do not just want to see the things this Government is doing in their constituencies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, with regard to energy, as you go along Mukambe Turn Off at the junction of Great North Road and the Mukando/Samfya Road, you will notice that the area is a hive of activity. Unfortunately, there is no electricity. Power can only be generated from Lusiwasi Power Station.

Once more, I am glad to mention that, very soon, we are going to witness the electrification of the Mukando Turn Off and this will benefit many people. As I speak, Mabondo School, which is also in Chitambo, has already been electrified from Chitambo School and the people in Chitambo have appreciated all these developments in the energy sector.

On education, Chitambo High School is about to be completed and it is one of the high schools which were mentioned among so many other schools.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, as regards agriculture, we have also started rearing livestock and we thank the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development for providing us with cattle. As Lalas, we naturally do not rear a large number of cattle as it is done in the southern part of the country. However, through the ministry’s restocking programme, we now have a lot of cattle.

Mr Speaker, all in all, there is so much that this Government is doing for the rural people, especially those of Chitambo.

Interruptions

Dr Musonda: If we continue to listen to some of these people who – for a lack of a better word − are town dwellers, it will be difficult for us to appreciate the development taking place. However, the people in rural areas are happy and this speech was actually delivered at the right time as it confirms exactly what people in rural areas are seeing.

Mr Speaker, let me quickly mention one of the most important aspects which the President mentioned and which I hold dearly to my heart, the health sector. It was very clearly mentioned by His Excellency that the main strategy through which this Government intends to achieve the vision of the Ministry of Health is by taking equity of access to cost- effective quality health care as close to the family as possible and this is the primary health care strategy. I think it is very ably mentioned on page 21 of the speech and this is a very important statement.

Mr Speaker, the President further talked about the procurement of mobile hospitals. I am very alive to the fact that people have had so many perceptions about mobile hospitals. I have got my own opinion and have consulted the people of Chitambo who have their opinions too.

Mr Speaker, it is written in the speech here that the primary health care strategy is what we are going to use, but most importantly is for the people to understand what this is all about. It is a very big package comprising eight entities whose implementation I can explain step by step.

The first principle of primary health care is the provision of food supply and proper nutrition under health. However, in our country, it is being implemented by the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. If you look at the performance of the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, this year, we have a bumper harvest and this shows that food supply is being taken care of adequately by the ministry.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, His Excellency in his speech clearly mentioned that this Government is going to continue making sure that it provides adequate water supply. So far, about 2,000 boreholes have been provided throughout the country.

Interruptions

Dr Musonda: That on its own means that this Government is making sure that it provides safe water for the people. It is also making sure that the principles of primary health care are being implemented.

Mr Speaker, the third principle is that of maternal and child health care, including family planning. I thought I should share that the progress we have made, as a country, in the reduction of maternal mortality and infant mortality, which falls under child health, which very commendable and there is a possibility of achieving the millennium development goals (MDGs) by 2015.

I have mentioned several times that as of 2005, we were at 165 per cent in terms of under five mortality rate, which is a very big parameter in the measurement of this MDG. The actual as of 2007 was at 119 per cent while our target is 63 per cent and we have five years to go. After this year’s census, we will definitely have correct figures for 2010. Definitely, we are now in the range of somewhere close to 50 per cent or so and, therefore, 63 per cent will easily be achievable. This means that the principle of primary health care which is to provide adequate maternal and child health will be achieved. I know that it is difficult for some people to appreciate this because they think primary health care is going to a clinic to get medicine.

Mr Sikazwe: Efyo twaishiba.

Dr Musonda: That is not true, the principle of primary health care is collective and as I have mentioned, we are making so much progress. If we talk about maternal mortality rate, the base line in 2005 for Zambia was 729. By 2007, it reduced to 448. The national health strategic plan, which ends this year, has a target of 420. The actual, at the moment is at 547 while our target is 164 and we have five years to go.

The President in his address clearly stated that, about a month ago, he launched the accelerated campaign against maternal mortality, which has a lot of strategies packaged together with the aim to reducing the maternal mortality. This just shows how this Government is working so hard in making sure that it reduces the maternal mortality rate.

Interruptions

Dr Musonda: I am sure we should be able to appreciate this. The other aspect of primary health care is that of the provision of essential drugs and this is the biggest contention of so many people. Through this Parliament, a lot of money to go towards the procurement of essential drugs has been appropriated and the amount keeps increasing. As of last year, 2009, we were at K97 billion and in this year’s Budget, the amount has gone to K120 billion. All these efforts are aimed at improving the provision of essential drugs by the Government.

Mr Speaker, looking at the limitation of time and the need to speak on other issues as well, let me say that, all in all, according to me, the Government is doing extremely well in the performance of the health sector with reference to the strategy of primary health care.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, the prevalence rate of HIV/AIDS was at 15 per cent, but it is now at about 14.3 per cent and we are going towards a target of 10 per cent.

Mr Speaker, Zambia is the only country around Southern Africa with the highest number of people accessing free anti-retro viral (ARVs) and in this respect it is even doing better than South Africa. In fact, Zambia is the only country using the effective drug called Truvada as opposed to Trimune being used in Zimbabwe and Malawi. All this information is on the internet for people to see.

Mr Speaker, even as regard the treatment of malaria as mentioned by the President, Zambia is the only country which is using coartem, which is a combination of two other drugs in form of syrup as opposed to chloroquine and fansidar used in Zimbabwe, Malawi and Tanzania.

Mr Speaker, with that said, I think the fight being put up by this Government against communicable diseases is good and it is something that we should be pleased about. Still on malaria, it is important to further mention that Zambia is the only country in Southern Africa which is implementing the five strategies in the control of malaria.

Mr Speaker, the five strategies in the control of malaria entail the use of insecticide nets. In addition to that, malaria is detected through the rapid diagnostic tests. This means that there is no need to use a microscope when testing for malaria as a mere needle prick gives accurate results.

Interruptions

Dr Musonda: Therefore, I urge all hon. Members to spray their homes. Following the President’s visit to Cuba last year, he announced that using Cuban know-how, the Government was undertaking a national eradication programme to reduce the number of malaria-carrying mosquitoes. This programme will soon start. Once this is done, malaria will be eliminated because it is our most common cause of death in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, due to lack of time, I would have gone ahead and talked about so many other aspects. However, I will share just one issue with the House. If I liken, for example, the political situation in Zambia to football teams, there is the MMD team with the coach being Rupiah Banda (RB) and we ...

Mr Speaker: Order! Who is RB?

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, His Excellency the President. I think he is popularly known as RB. If, for example, he is a coach, there are many other team players in the likes of the Defence Minister marking number 5, …

Hon. Government Member: They will score.

Laughter

Dr Musonda: … and there is the other team, …

Laughter

Dr Musonda: For your information, we have played the other team, three times, and it has lost.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: They have not combined and there is confusion. We could have injuries in our team and in terms of other players being sidelined, ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: ... but the injuries in the other team are grave. I am glad to announce that the President has engaged a physical trainer. This means that the game in 2011 will be tough. Those who have lost three times and not reorganised themselves will have a lot of casualties.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the President’s Address made to this House.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer!

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, I would like to start my debate by looking at page 5 of the President’s Address. The President said notwithstanding the progress which has been made in terms of economic growth, there is still a problem of distributing the benefits of that growth to the rest of Zambians. The debate of this address, in my opinion, must start and end with this paragraph. This is the greatest paradox.

Mr Speaker, for a long time in this country, we have celebrated statistics. We have celebrated Growth Domestic Products (GDPs), inflation and interest rates. However, the people of Zambia would like to know when they will be invited to join in parties and celebrations. Why celebrate when the majority cannot have three meals in a day?

Hon. Opposition Member: Even one.

Mr Sejani: Even one. Why celebrate when the majority, after labouring so much to produce maize, but cannot be paid their dues? Why celebrate when the majority of our people cannot access safe drinking water?

Mrs Musokotwane: Dr Musonda!

Mr Sejani: Why celebrate when the majority of our children in rural areas still sit on the floor in classrooms?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Why are you celebrating?

Hon. UPND Member: Ask them.

Mr Sejani: When will the rest of Zambia join in the celebrations?

Mrs Musokotwane: 2011 is coming.

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, in order to address these challenges, what does the President say? He says we need more economic growth. What is the relevance of that? The answer is not in more economic growth. The answer lies in the structures, the institutions and the programmes that will help us distribute what we have. If we cannot distribute the little that we have, what makes you sure that you can distribute more. The issue is distributional.

Hon. Opposition Member: Equity!

Mr Sejani: If you do not have the formula for distributing the little that you have, you will not have the formula for distributing the more you may have. The answers must be sought from elsewhere. It is time to look at institutions whose strength will help us deliver the goods and services to the old men and women of Zambia.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Free advice.

Mr Sejani: The answer must be sought in identifying programmes that will take the goods and services to the ordinary Zambians. That is where the answer is.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Alas, Mr Speaker, we are directing our energies in the wrong direction, altogether. Why have we ignored the fundamental institutions that would have helped us fast track the delivery of these goods and services to the majority of Zambians? Why, for example, have we continued to pay lip service to the plight of the local government in this country? Every corner of this country is serviced by the local government. However, this is the institution to which we have continued to pay lip service.

Mr Speaker, when fundamental questions are raised on the plight of local government, this Government gives the Decentralisation Policy as an answer. When we ask serious questions, you raise the issue of decentralisation.

Laughter

Mr Sejani: That has been the song for the last seven to eight years. Now they are adding a new verse to the song; Decentralisation Implementation Programme (DIP).

Laughter

Mr Sejani: Come on, let us get more serious than that. I bet we are going to hear that song about the DIP for the next five to six years.

Hon. Opposition Member: Eight months only.

Mr Sejani: No country ever developed its rural areas by ignoring the plight of local government.

Mr Muntanga: Correct!

Mr Sejani: This is the institution that is closest to the people. The one that is supposed to deliver goods and services to our people continues to be neglected. There is something wrong in a system that continues to concentrate power, resources and functions at the centre. The system is faulty. We continue to sing decentralisation for ten years without any positive steps towards its implementation.

How will the rest of Zambia join in the party and partake in the so-called growth that the few of us are celebrating. We are neglecting institutions that are supposed to help us. Local government is one such institution. It is time that we looked at the structure and financing of local government.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: The plight of local government does not lie on the establishment of the Local Government Service Commission.

Mr Mwiimbu: No!

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Once you have created capacity, financed Local Government and are able to pay well, automatically, qualified staff will be attracted.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Sejani: You can identify qualified staff now and take them to Local Government, but if the conditions of service are bad, they will leave after two days. It is high time we looked at Local Government. If we are serious about developing this country equitably, we must look at Local Government. If we are serious about developing rural Zambia, we must look at Local Government. If we continue to pay lip service to this issue, do not be surprised tomorrow, Mr Speaker, when signs of sectarianism begin to surface in this country because the Government is not looking at the development of this country equitably.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: We cannot continue to have 90 per cent of expenditure being done at the centre with only 3 per cent of public budget going directly to Local Government. That situation is unacceptable. That is why these statistics that we are celebrating about are never appreciated by the ordinary man and woman on the street.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Identify institutions and sectors that are supposed to help the Government deliver goods and services to the people. Sir, agriculture is one of them. We can praise ourselves that we have a bumper harvest this year, but it is meaningless if the farmer cannot be paid on time. It is a waste of time if the ordinary person who has laboured to produce cannot be paid.

A few months ago, we moved a Motion to talk about the problems of agricultural marketing in this country. The Government dismissed the motion with contempt, saying that everything about it was wrong. If all was wrong, why are you consulting now? Let us look at agriculture comprehensively. Please, do not reduce agricultural production to the provision of seed and fertiliser only. It is broader than that. We must also look at support infrastructure if we are serious about agricultural production.

Mr Speaker, we are faced with climate change. The President admitted in his speech that climate change is on us. The future is likely to be characterised by floods and drought, but we are not taking steps to address some of these eventualities. I do not know how many times Members of the Opposition have demanded for the need to prepare for drought. We never know where the vagaries of nature are going to take us. What will happen to Zambia’s agricultural production when we are faced with a drought if we cannot construct dams now? The President was very happy to read that in three years, from 2008 to 2010, only three dams were constructed.

Laughter

Mr Sejani: That is shameful!

Mr Muntanga: Only three dams!

Mr Sejani: Imagine three dams in three years.

Interruptions

Mr Sejani: These statistics are embarrassing. It is better not to say it at all, if you are serious minded. It means that one dam was constructed per year when you are preparing for a dry future. I think you can do better than this.

Mr Speaker, we are ignoring sectors that are supposed to help us take the goods and services to the people. Agriculture has been reduced to the distribution of fertiliser and seed. There is a lot more to it. Dip tanks are needed if we have to win the fight against cattle diseases. Where is the programme for the construction of dip tanks to help us enhance agricultural production?

In Zambia, the majority of producers of our maize are peasant farmers whose animal traction to produce is oxen. This is the oxen threatened by disease. There is no support infrastructure programme to ensure that we take care of this. We are busy celebrating statistics in Lusaka. The people are asking, “When shall we be invited to this party to celebrate? Why are you the only ones seeing growth? Your stomachs are growing ours are shrinking.”

Laughter

Mr Sejani: That is the message. These are fundamental issues which must be addressed and I realise …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, is Hon. Sejani in order to say that their stomachs are shrinking and other stomachs are growing when Hon. Muntanga can scarcely stand because of a protruding stomach.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Mapatizhya may continue.

Laughter

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, I know how Hon. Muntanga’s stomach was before he came to this House and after. I can attest to the fact that it has shrunk.

Laughter

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, I know what time is left on my side. There has been so much talk about the conduct of our politics in this country and the lack of respect among politicians. I want to say that if I want to be respected, I must respect others as well. If I want the people of Mapatizhya Constituency to respect me, I must respect them as well. I cannot go round Mapatizhya Constituency insulting my constituents and calling them names such as mambalas and vipuba and expect them to respect me. They will not. If I want to be respected, I must respect the people in turn. Those who want to be respected must also respect others. It is a two-way process. Those who are insulting risk being insulted back. We must respect our offices whether we are hon. Members of Parliament or Presidents. These are serious offices and we must respect the people. Do not go out there and insult your constituents by telling them that they are vipuba, vioneni, ba mambala and sons of dogs. That is not leadership. We are creating a very dangerous atmosphere in Zambian politics.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer!

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, I am giving a timely warning that those who want to be respected must respect others.

Mr Speaker, on page 37, the President has asked voters to look at what he has done and he has listed a number of things that he has done. I also have a long list of things which he has not done and I want to list them.

Laughter

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, I am calling upon voters to remember that since 2008, this Government should have done certain things which they have not done. I have ten of them here. As you think about what he has done, think about what he has not done.

Laughter

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, I want Zambians to think about the …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 28th September, 2010.

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