DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 14th October, 2010

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

STATUS OF THE FOOD RESERVE AGENCY CROP MARKETING PROGRAMME FOR 2010

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to make a ministerial statement on the status of the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) Crop Marketing Programme for 2010. In my statement, I will give an update covering crop purchases, payments to farmers and measures taken to secure the purchased crops.

Mr Speaker, the unprecedented bumper harvest of maize amounting to 2,795,483 metric tonnes, which is rounded off to 2.8 million tonnes, that was recorded this year, has brought about a lot of challenges with regard to buying, mobilising and storing the crop.

The Government has had to look for resources in hundreds of billions of Kwacha to buy maize from farmers, transport and then store it in silos.

Mr Speaker, our objective is to make sure that the produce is safely stored before the onset of the rains so as to maintain the national strategic food reserve and food security of our country.

Mr Speaker, in terms of crop purchases, as at 12th October, 2010, a total of 740,361 metric tonnes of maize valued at K962,468,910,000 had been bought. As for paddy rice, a total of 1,199 metric tonnes valued at K1.798 billion had been bought.

Mr Speaker, the distribution of maize purchases per province in the country is as follows:

 Province Quantity (Metric Tonnes)

 Central    90,207.45

 Copperbelt   31,773.85

 Eastern 188,031.85

 Luapula   29,576.05

 Lusaka   76,317.05

 Northern  110,688.40

 North-Western    46,846.00

 Southern 160,889.10

 Western    11,413.25

 Total  752,743.00

Mr Speaker, in order to give an opportunity to farmers to deliver their produce to the FRA satellite depots, the Government has decided to extend the crop marketing season by one month up to 31st October, 2010.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, as at 12th October, 2010, we had cumulatively disbursed a total amount of K681,721,835,195 to farmers with an outstanding balance of K282,545 094,804 to be paid.

As regards outstanding payments, with effect from last week, we have been disbursing an amount of K150 billion weekly with a view to clearing all outstanding amounts owed to farmers.

Mr Speaker, to make use of what we have already acquired, we are in the process of securing all the crops that have been bought properly before the onset of the rains.  For our national strategic reserves, we have intensified our efforts in securing storage facilities throughout the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: So far, an additional capacity of 100, 000 metric tonnes storage space has been sourced. In situations where the silos are full to capacity, alternative measures such as concrete slabs covered with tarpaulins will be used.

We require about 2,522 tarpaulins to secure the crop. So far, we have distributed 1,979 tarpaulins, representing 78 per cent progress to regions where they are needed.

Mr V. Mwale: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: The remaining tarpaulins are expected to be supplied before the end of this week.

Mr Speaker, as regards the transportation of maize from satellite depots to the national silos for storage, we have accelerated the exercise following the payment of most transporters that we owed.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to assure this august House that the Government will make sure that the entire crop that will be purchased by the FRA is secured going by the measures that we have put in place.

 I thank you, Sir

Hon. Member: Ema doctor aya.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement which has been made by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the FRA is still buying more maize in addition to the 160,000 tonnes that was bought from the Southern Province.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, first of all, as I indicated earlier in my ministerial statement, the crop marketing season has been extended to 31st October, 2010. I would like to confirm that the 160 metric tonnes was up to 12th October, 2010, but we shall still continue buying up to 31st October, 2010.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, why is the Government only buying 90,000 metric tonnes of maize from the Central Province when the province is the food basket of this country? May the hon. Minister shed more light on that?

Mr Munaile: Ubulimi bwakale tabutalalika mwana.

Mr V. Mwale: Iwe, commercial farmers sell their own crops.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, it looks strange that the hon. Member does not know that most commercial farmers do not sell their crops to the FRA. The FRA targets small-scale farmers. That is why commercial farmers are not captured in these figures.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I am concerned about the Western Province where the hon. Minister indicated that only 11,413 metric tonnes of maize were produced. Despite the province being given fertiliser through the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) why did the province produce this low figure of maize?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, indeed, the figure for the Western Province is quite low, but I wish to inform the hon. Member of Parliament that, in that province, farmers also grow rice. The figure is low because some farmers concentrated on growing rice.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, let me also take advantage of this question to indicate to this House that this Government has paid all the rice farmers in all the areas the FRA bought rice from.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I would like some help with regard to the balance sheet. According to the hon. Minister’s information, there are two and three quarter million tonnes of maize being grown. Three quarters of a million tonnes was the 730,000 we heard about. One million will be taken care of by internal consumption through the hammer mills, but it still leaves a million tonnes outstanding and unaccounted for. Can the hon. Minister confirm that it exists and whether he has some kind of plan to do something with it?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, I would like to assure the hon. Member for Lusaka Central that the balance he is talking about is not fictitious but real. With regard to the issue of surplus maize, I would like to state that we intend to export it to areas of need in the region and wherever a market will be found.

I thank you, Sir.
 
Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the maximum tonnage for the national strategic reserve is.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, it is estimated at 1.2 million metric tonnes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, it is reported that over 1 million tonnes of maize will be exported and that it will be subsidised. May the hon. Minister shed light on whether it is fair to subsidise exports at the expense of local consumption considering the high price of mealie-meal.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, currently, this Government is going into consultations with the various stakeholders to look at the pricing the hon. Member has talked about. When there is a surplus, definitely, there is a need to get rid of it for it not to go to waste. Therefore, we are discussing with the stakeholders to look at the issues of sale and transportation to countries that require maize. At the moment, the pricing is also going through careful analysis. Once the committee that is looking at that has presented its report to me as hon. Minister responsible, the Government will consider its recommendations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Mr Speaker, it has been reported that maize is being stored in an incomplete hospital in Shang’ombo District. I would like the hon. Minister to clarify this.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, as a Government, we always plan how to do things. When we see that there are problems, we design a programme to address them. We have a programme to specifically construct storage facilities. We are also encouraging the private sector to go into the construction of storage facilities as a business because the FRA is actually renting some of the storage facilities from the private sector. If the community sees the need to have a storage facility as an initiative, they will be encouraged to put up one. As a Government, we have a programme of constructing storage facilities in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, recently, the Government embarked on a programme to rehabilitate silos. May I find out from the hon. Minister how many silos have been rehabilitated and what their holding capacity is.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, indeed, a number of silos are being worked on and we shall continue working on new ones. At the moment, you may wish to know that in Chisamba we have worked on a particular storage facility with a capacity of 22,500 metric tonnes. You may also be aware that there are storage facilities which are being worked on in Kapiri Mposhi. This programme will continue. In addition to this rehabilitation programme, we have also established sheds under the FRA amounting to 462.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, looking at the high production levels from the Eastern and Northern provinces, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is considering increasing fertiliser allocation to these areas.

Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, indeed, the Government is planning to increase not the amount of fertiliser given, but the number of beneficiaries. We want more and more small-scale farmers to benefit from this programme.

   The FISP was clearly one of the contributing factors to the bumper harvest we had this year. This is because more farmers benefited from the FISP last season, as we saw the number of beneficiaries increase from around 200,000 to 500,000. In the next farming season, we hope to cater for more small-scale farmers than we did in the last one.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that tarpaulins should be distributed all over the country in two weeks time. We all know that the North-Western Province has produced 46,000 metric tonnes of maize and that in the news yesterday, it was reported that 11 millimetres of rainfall was recorded there. I would like to find out if the maize in the North-Western Province has not been spoilt.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, as a Government, we are aware that the North-Western Province is one of the regions where the rains start early. Therefore, we have already put in place measures to take care of such an occurrence. The North-Western Province was one of the first provinces that we considered in the distribution of tarpaulins. Part of the 1,900 tarpaulins which were bought in the first phase went to the North-Western and Luapula provinces because we are aware of that particular factor.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how soon the transporters will be paid for this year’s work.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, I wish to state that by yesterday, the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) had paid all the transporters from the last farming season. At the same time, those who have been engaged this year are being paid accordingly and we shall continue paying the transporters.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the Government plans for certain eventualities. However, we have had challenges that suggest to the contrary. Can the hon. Minister assure this House that from now onwards, the Government will be planning properly, especially with regard to issues to do with storage facilities because I know that, in the past, maize in the Northern Province has gone to waste due inadequate storage facities.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, there is clear evidence that this Government has been planning.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: Sir, if you look at the way the ministry allocated financial resources in this year’s Budget, you will be able to tell that this Government was able to plan for eventualities.

Interruptions

Dr Kazonga: Sir, despite not knowing that we were going to have a bumper harvest, this responsible Government was able to quickly moblise the required resources. That is part of responding to eventualities. It takes a very systematic and orderly Government to address such issues.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Kawandami (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, since we have a bumper harvest all over the country, have we put in place measures to protect the maize from rotting, including that which is under tarpaulins?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, indeed, the Government has taken measures to ensure that no maize goes to waste. At the moment, the storage facilities are being fumigated. On Saturday, last week, I went to Chisamba and Mwachisompola to check on the storage facilities. At Mwachisompola Depot, all the storage facilities that are there are full. In addition to that, all the storage facilities at the depot have already been fumigated. This is evidence that we have continued to put in place measures to protect our maize from going to waste.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, in view of the hon. Minister’s admission …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I rarely stand on points of order. Is the hon. Minister in order to mislead this House that the Government was not prepared for a bumper harvest when the then hon. Minister of the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives stated in a ministerial statement last year that by reducing the number of bags to four per farmer from the initial eight, the Government’s plan was to record a bumper statement, …

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: … sorry, I meant a bumper harvest. I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Kabwata may continue.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, in view of the hon. Minister’s admission that his Government did not anticipate the bumper harvest and also in respect to the response he gave to the question raised by the hon. Member for Roan to the effect that there is a committee in place which shall consider the pricing of the maize to be exported, could the hon. Minister indicate what issues this committee will be considering when the price of maize in the sub-region is already known to be around US$165 per tonne, and yet he paid farmers in Zambia US$265 per tonne. Can he kindly indicate where he thinks he will sell the maize at more than US$165 per metric tonne?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, let me start by correcting one impression that has been created by the hon. Member of Parliament through his question. The bumper harvest can be attributed to a number of issues. The first one is that of Government polices and programmes. That is one variable that we need to take into consideration. The second variable contributing to this bumper harvest is the hard work demonstrated by farmers. The third one, which we have no control over and is always a possibility, is the good rains.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Kazonga: We can never be sure of what the rainfall pattern will be. However, all the other policies that I have talked about were already in place by the time the rainy season was starting. We also knew that our farmers were going to work very hard. We also had put in place a number of measures meant to encourage conservation farming and the use of certified seed. All those are within the umbrella of variables known as Government policies and programmes. With regard to the export of maize, one of the factors which is being analysed is the cost of transport. The committee is looking at all the factors involved in the export of maize which contribute to the pricing. The committee is so competent that it will be able to analyse all the issues involved in coming up with the pricing for the maize that needs to be exported and then make recommendations to us.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has complained about the inadequacy of the silos in the country. As a result, the ministry wants to rent some facilities. May I know why it has failed to rehabilitate silos in Monze for more than thirty years despite the assurances that this Government that fails to plan has continued to make in this House.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, the Government plans to rehabilitate silos countrywide. It is, however, not possible to rehabilitate all of them at once. I have already indicated the ones that have been worked on and those that are currently being worked on. We will move to the ones that the hon. Member referred to later on.

Mr Speaker, this is our programme and we are slowly implementing it based on the available resources. This Government is busy looking at modalities of financing this rehabilitation programme.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, we had a bumper harvest in the last farming season. The common man, however, looks at the pricing of mealie-meal. I would like to find out what the Government is doing to ensure that, at the household level, people benefit from this bumper harvest through the pricing of mealie-meal. 

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, we hope that people will benefit from this bumper harvest. We have been seeing some millers reducing mealie-meal prices, particularly the National Milling Company. We hope that it can continue reducing so that mealie-meal is affordable to most Zambians.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the 22 per cent shortfall of tarpaulins will be made available to satellite depots because if that is not done soon, the maize will be at risk.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, we are hopeful that the tarpaulins will get to the farmers within the next two or three weeks so that we can secure the crop. As I indicated earlier, we have put in place measures for areas that get early rainfall. We will ensure all the 2,522 tarpaulins are acquired.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives comment on the non-availability of storage facilities in Malole. We only have two big storage facilities and one of them is inaccessible due to impassable roads. What is the ministry doing to ensure that more facilities are constructed in Malole Constituency?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, there are two dimensions to this question, the first part being about storage facilities. The Government, on its own, cannot afford to build storage facilities everywhere at once. This is why we prefer that the private sector gets involved.

 I am aware that some of the constituencies have already started planning how they will use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to erect storage facilities in their areas. The Central Government, private sector and individual efforts at the constituency level can help in improving the storage capacity of this country.

Mr Speaker, the second part of the question was on accessibility to these areas. As you know, we have a programme under the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) where some of the feeder roads are being rehabilitated. This is part of the strategies and initiatives of this Government. As we heard from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, quite a lot of resources have been put in the Budget for next year for infrastructure development. Part of that infrastructure that will be developed is the road network. This will address the issue of accessibility to the areas where maize is produced.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, yesterday, it rained in Luwingu and the maize which was scattered on the ground was soaked. Can the hon. Minister confirm that Luwingu was not catered for in his plans to secure the maize in the country?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, at the moment, I do not have that information. However, making use of that information, I would like to advise all our officers to secure the crops countrywide and make use of the tarpaulins. We need to secure crops that are still in satellite depots before we look at transporting them to bigger storage facilities.  I will however countercheck that information and I will deal with the people responsible because instructions were given to all the officers on the ground to secure all the crops before the rainy season.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Katema (Chingola): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what precaution the ministry has taken to avoid what happened last marketing season where we started importing maize after exporting it because we had a shortfall of mealie-meal even though we had recorded a bumper harvest. What precautions have we taken so that we do not have a repeat of last season’s scenario?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, the FRA is responsible for strategic reserves. The figure for the maize to be exported is determined after considering our consumption levels. We shall make sure that we do not exceed our consumption levels so that we do not fall into the situation that was described by the hon. Member which occurred last year. We know the average consumption level in the country per year and, through this number, we should be able to determine how much we can export and how much we can keep for local consumption.

Mt Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chella (Wusakile): Mr Speaker, how will the removal of import duty on hammer mills affect the pricing of mealie-meal?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, there is one impact that we expect from the measure that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning indicated to this House. Once the hammer mills are available in the rural areas, the people in those parts of the country will be able get mealie-meal cheaply. In turn, even retailers who sell mealie-meal which they buy from milling companies will have some form of competition. On one hand, we will have people getting mealie-meal straight from the hammer mills and, on the other hand, people will continue getting it from those who buy it from the millers. Through the comparative differences in the expenses of the methods that are used to get the mealie-meal to people, there will be an induced reduction in the prices.

As indicated by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, our farmers will add value to the maize bumper harvest and it will have an impact on the price of mealie-meal in turn.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Mwape (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister the interest rate at which the Government borrowed for the purpose of the purchase of the maize and what the repayment period is.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, I do not have the figures of the borrowing rate. Therefore, I am not able to give an answer to that question.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, since 20,000 metric tonnes from Luapula is not reflective of the productivity of people in a province that does not have the support to grow maize, what is the ministry doing to support the traditional cassava growing which the FRA does not buy and, when it does, it is at a very cheap price?

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, indeed, we, as a Government, are aware that there is a lot of cassava produced by the people of Luapula Province. Traditionally, this crop has been grown as a staple food. Therefore, what we are doing to encourage our farmers to continue growing this crop is to ensure that the varieties that are in use are improved upon. The Government is also trying out certain varieties to ensure that they produce even more.

Sir, as regards the issue of the pricing of cassava vis-à-vis being sold to the FRA, indeed, the farmers recognised, according to their assessment, that the price at which they would sell their crop to the FRA would be lower than when sold to any other private organisation. Therefore, using the principle of demand and supply and price negotiations, it was felt that they could sell to other private companies because the price offered by the FRA was much lower.

Sir, in addition to this, a few years ago when the FRA bought cassava, there was a problem of adding value to it because the demand was quite low. However, we shall still be encouraging the people of the Luapula Province to continue growing their staple food, cassava. At the same time, we are seeing some diversification in the crops that are being grown. We are seeing them growing rice and also maize which is very good and we hope that they can continue.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is going to call upon the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to give incentives to local manufacturers of hammer mills instead of encouraging their importation which is creating business for the manufacturers in other countries.

 Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, all these are some of the issues that we are currently studying. Once we have finished studying them, we should be able to make appropriate recommendations to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

REGISTERED VEHICLES

95. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a) how many vehicles had been registered from 2006 to date year by year; and

(b) how many road traffic accidents had been recorded in the same period.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that from 2006 to date and on a yearly basis, the following categories of vehicles were registered:

Motor Vehicles 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Light Passenger 101,441 138,476 167,055 184,713 186,525
Vehicle

Heavy Passenger    3,711    4,653     5,615 6,207    7,723
Vehicle

Light Load Vehicle 37,640 47,195   56,953 62,953  68,354
(GVM3 500 kg/less)

Agriculture Tractor      772     967    1,167   1,291    2,425

Agriculture Trailers       110     138      167     184       245

Heavy Load Vehicles  23,073 28,930 34,900 38,590  40,112
(GVM equals or
Greater than 3.500 kg)

Trailers    3,196     4,008     4,835    5,345    5,756

Total 169,943 224,367 270,674 299,283 311,140

Mr Speaker, the following were the recorded road traffic accidents from 2006 to the second quarter of 2010, year by year and province by province:

Province 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

  1st Quarter 2nd Quarter

Lusaka 10,513 10,889 11,180 11,430 3,692 2,691
C/belt   4,105   5,400   3,442   6,137    970 1,060
Central   1,047   1,382   1,311   1,339    293    378
Southern   1,279   1,431   1,234   1,074    253    285
Eastern      632      401      469      769    133    196
Western      342      735      470      394    136    105
N/Western      549      693      882   1,017    194    226
Northern      443      569      493   6,055    135    138
Luapula      185      190      246      213      33      49
Total 19,095 21,690 19,727 22,978 4,839 5,128

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, seeing that the figures of the number of accidents have been increasing as a result of the increase in the size of the fleet, I would like to find out what the Government is doing to ensure that the number of accidents is reduced.

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, a number of measures have been put in place and, if the hon. Member cares to listen to the radio, read the newspapers and watch television, he will realise that the Road Traffic and Safety Agency (RTSA) has intensified educational programmes on traffic. Some of the educational programmes are on obeying traffic rules and what should be done by the drivers and passengers on the roads.

In addition, Sir, a number of efforts are being made to improve the state of our roads. That is why there is a concerted effort of infrastructure development countrywide.

Besides that, the Highway Code has been reviewed which, I believe, a number of hon. Members here have so that we can make the regulations and rules of traffic signs easily accessible to our people.

Mr Speaker, we have also intensified traffic patrols on our roads. If hon. Members care to see what is happening around, they will see that we have traffic patrol vehicles almost in every province. In addition, we have also procured motor cycles for traffic patrols for all provinces. All these are measures being taken by the Government to minimise road traffic accidents in the country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I am sure that Lusaka Province has more registered vehicles than other provinces. I would, therefore, like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures his ministry has put in place to reduce congestion caused by heavy vehicles that pass through the town centre in the early hours of the day.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the number of vehicles on our roads is an indicator of how well the economy is doing.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Clearly, in any economy, those who understand and know the intricacies of economic development understand that those who are buying vehicles are not doing so, to a large extent, from their incomes, but because they have disposable income.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Clearly, the number of vehicles on our roads is an indicator of the disposable income that is available to people.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: This is good for the economy.

Sir, to contain the number of vehicles on our roads, a number of actors should be at play and one of them is the councils. That is why the hon. Member, who is a councillor at the Lusaka City Council, should be interested in the number of vehicles that are being registered here in Lusaka and play an active role in her council come up with measures on how best the issue of traffic congestion can be addressed.

Mr Mubika: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister says that seeing so many vehicles on the road is an indicator of the economy doing well. However, I would like to find out whether the Government can do anything about the unfettered importation of motor vehicles in the country that are crowding our roads and causing a lot of accidents.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, allow me, at this point, to indicate to the House the response of citizens to the good economic policies of our country.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Indeed, a number of people are responding to the good economic policies.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: For example, the number of tractors that have been registered between 2006 and 2010 has risen from 772 in 2006 to 2,435 in 2010.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: This is an indication that our people are responding to the good economic incentives that this Government is providing.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Part of the reason we have recorded a bumper harvest is that people can see the value of accessing equipment like tractors for mechanisation of the farms.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: In addition to that, for example, the number of light trucks such as canters with less than 3.5 gross vehicle mass has risen from 37,640 in 2006 to 62,953 in 2009.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: This is an indication of the responsiveness of our people to the good economic policies and what is happening in the rural areas to facilitate transportation. So, clearly, Mr Speaker, I do not think that a responsible Government such as ours would actually take the route the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukashya has suggested. Instead, the Government should encourage people to access vehicles as the incentives are given in order to improve the transport sector.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, in the recent past, there was a ban on public transport moving at night …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order.

Sir, on 26th June, 1945, the world community adopted the United Nations (UN) Charter with the following as some of its purposes and principles:

(i) to develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples; and

(ii) to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace.

Mr Speaker, on 18th of April, 1964, in accordance with the United Nations Charter Article No. 51, member States of the UN agreed on the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. The convention came into force on 24th April, 1964 and Zambia gave its assent on the 16th June, 1975 and, therefore, became bound by that convention.

Sir, Article 27 (1) of this convention provides as follows, in part:

“The receiving State shall permit and protect, from communication, on the part of the mission for all official purposes.”

Article 41(1) of the same convention states as follows:

“Without prejudice to their privileges and immunities, it is the duty of all persons enjoying such privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State. They also have the duty not to interfere in internal affairs of the State.”

Mr Speaker, the observance of this charter is considered seriously internationally. To illustrate, I wish to give an example of how the Consultative Group Meeting of 1992 in Paris raised concerns about two Zambian dignitaries whose conduct was considered to have been inimical to the international community because of their alleged involvement in international drug trafficking.

Mrs Phiri laughed.

Mr Lubinda: Records will show that the then hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs for Zambia and the then Deputy Speaker of this House had to be relieved of their duties as a consequence.

I am told, Sir, that the former Minister of Foreign Affairs is still a persona non grata in some countries, meaning that if he was to be seen in any of those countries, he would be arrested forthwith.

Mr Speaker, Article 41 (2) says:

“All official business with receiving State entrusted to the mission by the sending State shall be conducted with or through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the receiving State or such other ministry as may be agreed.”

Mr Speaker, Zambia has not been left behind in ensuring that these provisions are adhered to by the members of the diplomatic community in Zambia. To this end and in keeping with the said article, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Zambia on 5th October, 2009 released a Note Verbale No. 1996/2009, which reads as follows:

“The Ministry of foreign Affairs of the Republic of Zambia presents its compliments to all heads of diplomatic, consular, trade missions and international organisations accredited to the Republic of Zambia and has the honour to remind all esteemed members of the diplomatic corps about the need to uphold the provisions of the 1961 Vienna Convention in particular Article 41 sub-paragraph (1) which calls on all diplomats to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State and not to interfere in the internal affairs of the host country, as well as, sub paragraph (2) which stipulates that all official business with the receiving State shall be conducted with or through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

“In this regard, the Ministry wishes to advise that henceforth, all contacts with Government ministries and institutions will be conducted through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. To this end, direct contacts by members of the diplomatic corps will, with immediate effect, no longer be entertained.”

Mr Speaker, the emphasis is to be found in the words:

“… all official business with the receiving State shall be conducted with or through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.”

The advice of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to the diplomats and other missions accredited to Zambia is that:

“Henceforth all contacts with Government ministries and institutions will be conducted through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.”

Mr Speaker, following these very clear provisions of the UN Charter and the Vienna Convention as well as the Note Verbale of the Government of Zambia that I referred to, is the hon. Chief Whip, who is a career diplomat and a former Minister of Foreign Affairs who is well known worldwide, in order to issue threats to the diplomatic community in the manner that he was quoted in the Zambia Daily Mail of Tuesday, 12th October, 2010 which I now wish to quote:

“Parliamentary Chief Whip, Vernon Mwaanga, has warned that some diplomatic missions should not be surprised if diplomatic sanctions are imposed on them for meeting Patriotic Front (PF) leader, Michael Sata, without Government’s knowledge.

“Mr Mwaanga said this in an interview yesterday in reaction to the recent meetings between Mr Sata and some diplomats.

“If the diplomats decide to cross what is called ‘diplomatic correctness’, they should not be surprised should there be diplomatic sanctions against them because the normal diplomatic channel is that they should make their requests and contacts with various groups through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,” Mr Mwaanga said.”

Further, is the hon. Chief Whip in order to create an impression that some diplomats are misleading people that there are two Governments in Zambia when he said the following words, again, quoted in the Zambia Daily Mail of Tuesday, 12th October, 2010:

“There can only be one Government at a time and for now, the MMD Government is in the driving seat …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda:

“… Mr Mwaanga said there is a misleading impression that has been created that there are two Governments in Zambia.”

In addition, is he also in order to create an impression that before diplomats can meet citizens of Zambia, civil society organisations, churches, political parties, they ought to seek the approval of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs …

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mr Lubinda: … which will imply that for citizens to meet with representatives of the foreign missions in Zambia, they should seek the clearance of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs?

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I wish to quote his words, again, in the Zambia Daily Mail of Tuesday 12th October, 2010 where he said:

“Meetings between diplomats, institutions and citizens are supposed to be channelled through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I am sure that the diplomats concerned, who are meeting Opposition leaders, will have to bear in mind how they view their relationship with this Government.”

Mr Mwaanga: Yes!

Mr Lubinda: Finally, is he in order to imply that there have been clandestine meetings between some diplomats and Opposition leaders, and yet the meetings referred to in the newspaper article are meetings between some Ambassadors and Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, who is not only a citizen, but also a respected president of a respected political party?

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Sata, under the Constitution of the land, has the freedom of movement and association.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Is the former Minister of Foreign Affairs, who is now Chief Whip, in order to imply wrong doing …

Mr Kambwili: It is not even his job. His job is to call for a quorum!

Mr Lubinda: … on the part of Mr Sata and the ambassadors whom he met when the meetings have been taking place in public and in full view of members of the press as was quoted in the Zambia Daily Mail that these meetings were taking place in hotel lobbies and cafés?

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Chief Whip in order to make all these misleading statements? I seek your well considered and very important ruling on this extremely crucial matter which hinges on the UN Charter, the Vienna Convention, the Note Verbale of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the human rights of individuals. With your permission, I wish to lay this newspaper and the Note Verbale on the Table for your further scrutiny.

Mr Lubinda laid the papers on the Table.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker:  Order!

The hon. Member for Kabwata who raised this point will recall or, in fact, should remember that I made a ruling in this House as to what constitutes a point of order.

It must have been last year or the other year when a point of order such as this one was raised by another hon. Member and I reiterated the fact that hon. Members should look up the ruling I made in this House on the matter of what constitutes a point of order. I did not stop there, I instructed the Clerk of the National Assembly to reissue that ruling to all Members of Parliament. That ruling was accordingly reissued.

My serious ruling on this point of order is that it does not constitute the sort of point of order that should be raised in this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: To define a point of order; it is a statement from a Member of Parliament of this House, drawing the attention of the presiding officer that something is wrong with the procedure that is being followed by a particular individual or the House itself. It is then up to the presiding officer to bring the House back on the rails as it were. That is my serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair.

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, as a way of reducing on accidents sometime back, there was a ban on public transport moving at night. May I know if that ban is still in force?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, in answering the hon. Member for Kankoyo, let me point out that indeed, heavy passenger vehicles have been on the increase in our country which includes, of course, buses. For example, these have increased from 3,711 in 2006 to 7,723 in 2010, representing 108 per cent growth rate. As a Government, we are happy that people are no longer waiting for buses, but buses are waiting for people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: This is a good indicator of economic performance as it relates to the transport sector. In that vein, we would like to see free movement of people. Therefore, we have not banned the movement of buses at night but, instead, are taking measures to ensure that people are safe on the roads either during the day or at night.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, four way stops are a recent introduction in Zambia as a means of controlling traffic, but when will the Government carry out an extensive campaign to teach people their correct usage as a safety measure?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, as I indicated, the traffic education campaigns are on going and are being undertaken by the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RATSA) on various media in our country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, currently, the vehicles for traffic control are only based at the provincial level. May I know when their service will be extended to the rural districts?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member should commend the Government for having taken a positive step to ensure that road traffic vehicles are in all the provincial centres. As resources become available, the service will be extended to areas that need them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwamba (Kasama Central): Mr Speaker, coming from a business background of transport, I would also suggest to the Government to impose a ban on public transport vehicles moving at night because no driver can drive for more than twelve hours without dosing.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we have taken measures to address that particular problem because we are aware that driving from Lusaka to Kasama and beyond, clearly, can result in major problems on the part of a single driver. This also applies to driving from Lusaka to Livingstone or any other part of the country. We have, therefore, taken measures to ensure that the transporters comply with safety measures for the sake of people on the roads.

I thank you, Sir.

SOLWEZI/CHINGOLA RAILWAY LINE

96. Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a)  what the progress on the proposed construction of the Solwezi/Chingola railway line was; and

(b)  who the promoters and financiers of the project were.

Mr Mubika: The Government, through my ministry, has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with the consortium comprising three companies, namely China Railway Engineering Corporation (CREC), AYR of Australia and Trans-Zambezi Railway Company Limited to develop the railway line in August, 2008. However, works on the project have not commenced due to litigation by an interested party.

The courts have since made a ruling on the matter in favour of the Government, but the plaintiff has appealed to the Supreme Court which is yet to decide on the matter. The Ministry of Communications and Transport has written to the Ministry of Justice to seek their legal opinion on the matter and is still awaiting an official response on the outcome of the matter before it can proceed with the project.

Mr Speaker, the matter will be determined after the Supreme Court judgement.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lumba: Mr Speaker, the state of the Solwezi/Chingola Road is becoming bad because of the heavy trucks. When will the Government find an alternative railway promoter if the earlier ones are in court?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, under your guidance, this matter is in court and we cannot proceed beyond the comment we have given.

I thank you, Sir.

COST OF DOING BUSINESS

97. Colonel Chanda (Kanyama) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry why the cost of doing business in Zambia has remained high.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, the Government recognised that one of the major contributors to the cost of doing business in Zambia was the costly and cumbersome business licensing regime. It was found that the business processes and procedures lacked transparency and were time consuming. There were approximately sixty-seven Acts of Parliament regulating business in Zambia. A review of the licensing regime identified 517 business licences affecting business operations in Zambia.

In this regard, the Government instituted measures to reduce the cost of doing business by reducing the number of licences. Cabinet has since directed that 170 licences be eliminated, fifty-seven be reclassified and ninety-nine amalgamated into twenty-one.

The cost of doing business is also increased by the process of starting a business which is characterised by multiple agencies and stages. This adds to the cost as these institutions and agencies are not located in one place in most cases. To this effect, the Government, through the Doing Business Reform Programme, has taken a number of measures, including the establishment of the one-stop-shop (OSS). The objective of the OSS is to improve on service delivery by enhancing the efficiency with which these services are delivered. The OSS was launched in May, 2010.

Further, the time it takes to register a business has been reduced to two days. Other reforms aimed at reducing the cost of doing business include the establishment of the one-stop-border-post at Chirundu which was launched in December, 2009 and the introduction of the simplified trade regime to facilitate cross border trade for micro or small and medium enterprises at the Victoria Falls, Mwami and Chirundu border posts.

Another major contributor to the high cost of doing business is the limited availability of infrastructure such as railway, road, airports and information and communication technology (ICT). Zambia, being a landlocked country, requires cost-effective means to transport goods. Currently, with the insufficient railway system in place, the road transportation which is more expensive is mostly used.

The Government has since put in place the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) Policy and legislation to facilitate the provision of infrastructure and delivery of social services in partnership with the private sector.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that elaborate answer. However, he mentioned in his answer, inter alia, that lack of transparency is one of the factors contributing to the high cost of doing business. Can this be attributed to corruption?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, before the reform process, it took a long time to get a licence. Therefore, members of the public were tempted to make offers in order to get the licences quickly. However, because of the reforms that we have put in place, members of the public are able to register their businesses and conclude everything within two days. So, there is no incentive in giving offers to the members of staff working in these institutions.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

RP CAPITAL

98. Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

(a) what the discounting factor used by RP Capital in the valuation of Zambia Telecommunications Limited (ZAMTEL) assets was;

(b) what the period of future cash flows used in the valuation was; and

(c) what other assumptions made in the valuation were.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, a discounted cash flow (DCF) approach was used in deriving the value of ZAMTEL. The purpose of the DCF approach was to capture the impact of market and business-related assumptions on the implied value of the company, reflected in terms of their impact on ultimate cash flow. The valuation methodology was used to derive a value of the company based on forecasts of free cash flows as well as assumptions on cost of capital. Thus the discount factor applied for the valuation of ZAMTEL was 14 per cent based on a weighted average cost of capital. The cash flow forecast period was eleven years.

The key assumptions made in the evaluation were as follows:

(a) cash flow forecasts were in respect of all facets of the business; sales, capital expenditure, operating expenditure, working capital and so on and so forth;

(b) the DCF technique applied in the valuation of ZAMTEL was the unlevered free cash flow i.e. free cash flow available to ZAMTEL, excluding all financing costs and debt payments;

(c) the optimal ZAMTEL staffing level post-privatisation was assumed to be 30 per cent of the privatisation level;

(d) Zambia’s population growth was assumed at 2 per cent in the first five years of the forecast period and 1.5 per cent thereafter to year ten; and

(e) foreign exchange fluctuations assumed that the Zambian Kwacha would maintain its relationship with copper price fluctuations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lumba: Mr Speaker, in view of the interest rates or cost of capital in Zambia, why did RP Capital use a very low discounting factor of 14 per cent?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, we have technocrats who advised us according to the assumptions that were made such as the one I read out last that clearly states that it was assumed that foreign exchange rates would maintain their relationship with fluctuations in the cost of copper.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I just want to guide hon. Members that this question is an example of what we refer to as a very technical question. You have to have good grounding in economics to understand what is going on.  This is not  to say that most of us are irrelevant to matters of this nature but, frankly, I have no idea how many of us here grasped what was going on between the hon. Member and the hon. Minister over there. However, I see that the hon. Member for Nchanga still wants to follow up on this technical question.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, this is a technical follow up. Why was eleven years used for future cash flow considering that this transaction is actually in perpetuity?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, as you rightly pointed out, these are technical issues that need technical input.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

I did not mean that you could not handle the question. Please, go ahead.

Laughter

Dr Puma: However, I would like to refer hon. Members to the speech that was given by the hon. Minister in July. It was quite comprehensive and contained about 40 pages on this issue. I would, therefore, encourage hon. Members to read it in order to get more information regarding this matter.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, if the fluctuations in the prices of copper was one of the assumptions in the valuation, could I learn from the hon. Minister what he assumed the  price of copper would be within eleven years.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member would like to learn more about the assumptions in the valuation of ZAMTEL, I would advise him to come to our office so that our technical staff …

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Dr Puma: … can sit down with him and explain what assumptions were made and the details of the fluctuations in the currency that was considered.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, I think the hon. Deputy Minister deliberately avoided answering a very simple question. The cost of borrowing in Zambia which is the interest rate is averaging 26 per cent. In the evaluation of ZAMTEL, a discounting factor or interest rate of 14 per cent was used. Why did they lower the interest rate when the cost of borrowing on the market is around 26 per cent? In the same vein, can the hon. Minister tell us what the pay back period for investment by LAP Green Networks in ZAMTEL is?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister must attempt to agree or disagree whether the DCF is the same as interest rate. How are they related?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member should know that the 14 per cent in this response talks about dollars ...

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Dr Puma: ... and the 26 per cent that he talked about is in Kwacha terms.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: The hon. Member is also aware that if he went to the bank he would borrow the dollar and Kwacha at different rates.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: We go to the next question.

Laughter

BANK LENDING RATES

99. Colonel Chanda asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) why bank lending rates in Zambia have remained high in spite of the inflation rate being less than 10 per cent; and

(b) whether the Government has any plans to compel banks to reduce their respective base rates.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, it is important to note, from the outset that, although not at the desired pace, interest rates in Zambia have been declining for both commercial banks and the micro-finance sector. The weighted average lending base rates declined to 20.6 per cent in August, 2010 from 22.7 per cent in December, 2009. Further, large corporations are able to borrow at interest rates below 15 per cent with some borrowing funds at below 10 per cent. However, the growth and health of small firms is central to employment creation and poverty alleviation. It is for this reason that the Government places high priority on addressing the issue of high lending rates.

Mr Speaker, the Bank of Zambia recently completed a survey on the determinants of high lending rates as viewed by commercial banks. The survey results reveal that there are several structural reasons for the high lending rates prevailing in Zambia despite inflation slowing down to less than 10 per cent.

The survey results also reveal that judgmental factors contribute significantly to the determination of base lending rates, in particular, large information asymmetries with the domestic market and the high difficult rates experienced in Zambia, resulting in large risk premiums being attached to macro-economic factors such as inflation rates.

Mr Speaker, for most banks, achieving the required return on equity and covering operational costs are among the most important factors in the determination of base lending rates. In such a situation, although there is some response to lower inflation, lending interest rates cannot fall significantly or to the same degree.

Another factor contributing to high interest rates is the problem of high and widespread default on loan repayments.

Mr Speaker, the Government remains committed to liberal economic policy. This is based on the fundamental changes and benefits to this economy that the policy has brought about since introduction.

The above notwithstanding, the Government has worked hard to facilitate an environment in which interest rates should come down. Maintenance of prudent fiscal policy has, for example, reigned in Government borrowing, thereby resulting in significant reduction in yield rates on Government borrowing. This has, in turn, resulted in lower inflation to single digit numbers. As a result, there has been some lowering of interest rates, but the challenge is to see a more rapid reduction. To this end, the following measures are being undertaken:

(i) improve the credit information on borrowers through the expansion of the Credit Reference Bureau;

(ii) publish interest rates and account charges of commercial banks on a quarterly basis in the national press. This is intended to provide new information for the choice of the customers;

(iii) increase competition by allowing more credible financial institutions on the market;

(iv) the Zambia Competition Commission to look at consumer welfare issues and also offer an important avenue through which the benefit of competition in the financial sector on consumer welfare can be assessed.

The Bank of Zambia to also collaborate with other regulatory bodies, particularly Phase II of the Financial Sector Development Plan (FSDP) to ensure that the deployments in the financial sector lead to improvements in consumer welfare;

(v) sustain low inflation and fiscal prudence; and

(vi) address structural issues through the FSDP that impact on the cost of credit such as the legal costs and processes that creditors face in trying to recover assets when loans go bad. This is done through the enhancement of the Judiciary in the resolution of commercial transactions through the courts. The introduction of the Small Claims and Commercial courts is a step in this direction.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that elaborate and comprehensive answer. However, is he aware that banks, at the moment, are charging double the base rate when calculating the interest on loans? Is that a justifiable practice?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I am puzzled by that assertion because if your base rate is, say 20 or 21 per cent, double that will be 40 per cent plus. I am not aware of any commercial bank in Zambia that charges that much.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether among other factors that have contributed to high bank lending rates is the financing of our budget deficit which attracts money from the banks since it is safer for the banks to lend to the Government than the private sector.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, over the last five years, the amount of money the Government has been borrowing, in relation to the gross domestic product (GDP), has been declining. I, therefore, do not believe the point raised by the hon. Member to be a critical factor.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister be clear on whether his Government is defending the banks, and hence justifying the current high interest rates. Can he admit that the Government has failed to break the cartel that the banks have formed, resulting in the high interest rates?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, this very capable Government …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … has never defended the banks.

In the President’s Speech, in mine and in those of most of our colleagues, we have always said that we are unhappy about the level of the lending rates. This is why we have also taken the measures that I described earlier in order that we have an informed way of dealing with the issue instead of an irrational manner without a thought process like some political parties tend to do.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, ‘cartel’ is a term that refers to a situation whereby a few players, capitalising on their limited number are allowed to manipulate a price such as interest rate.

Mr Speaker, anyone who has observed the happenings in this market will note that credible banks are being allowed to come on the scene every year. That is evidence enough to demonstrate that this Government is not promoting cartels, but doing the opposite.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Sikota, SC. (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether or not the Government has made considerations …

Mr Speaker: Order!

I want to listen to that question, please.

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government has considered giving incentives to the banks that will lower their interest rates by way of ensuring that the large amounts of funds that the Government has as deposits from these banks with high interest rates are shifted to the banks that will take up the responsibility of lowering their interest rates, of course, with a caveat stating that, in spite of their low rates, they should be credible banks.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, there are measures that the Government has been considering through the Bank of Zambia (BOZ) which we are pursuing. In addition, I take note of the suggestion being presented. I would like to indicate that the suggestion by the hon. Member could work, but the banks from where the deposits are withdrawn may be tempted to hike interest rates to preserve their profits since the economies of scale remain low. Nonetheless, I take note of the suggestion by the hon. Member and will study it further.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether BOZ has power to influence commercial banks to reduce lending rates.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, unfortunately, I cannot recall the question.

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: It was irrelevant.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, it has been reported that in the last two years, Zambia has attracted a lot of investment in the banking sector and that one of the reasons for this is the high interest rates obtaining. Can the hon. Minister confirm whether that assertion is true or not?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I would rather think that what is attracting investment in the banking sector is the good business environment prevailing in the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in fact, it is not just investment in banks that has been attracted on account of our good policies, but companies in the agriculture, tourism, mining, manufacturing and other sectors.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile (Malole): Madam Speaker, while it is appreciated that the base rate keeps going down, would the hon. Minister consider intervening as regards the margin that is added on top of the base rate because that is what makes the interest rates high.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, it would not be desirable for us to do that because one of the big cost factors leading to the high interest rates is the default rate. Any defaults are an expense to the bank. When a customer fails to pay back a loan, it becomes a cost which clients who are able to service their loans must now shoulder.

Now, if we said that we control this, most banks will shun risky clients since that margin was set to cushion them. The cushion that the good clients provide for the bad ones will not be there. Therefore, it would not be in the interest of the economy to introduce such a measure because the small and medium enterprises (SMEs) will not have access to credit.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that one of the reasons for high interest rates in this country is the high default rate. Is the hon. Minister aware that, apart from asking for collateral, the banks in this country are also insuring loans? If a Zambian or any individual company defaults, the bank will claim some money from an insurance company. Therefore, defaulting clients are not an issue. Is he aware that these loans are insured?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I wish to correct the hon. Member who imagines that just because a loan is insured, therefore, there is no cost incurred when a client defaults. We have seen that even with ordinary insurance, if you have insured your car and you have a tendency of causing accidents, …

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: … your insurance premiums will increase. Insurance does not absorb the costs associated with defaults. Therefore, the hon. Member’s assertion is not correct.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning why the Bank of China has two lending rates. The lower one is for the Chinese nationals and Chinese companies while the higher one is for Zambians, non-Chinese people and non- Chinese companies.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I am not aware of that matter. Now that it has been mentioned, I will have to investigate it and see whether it is true. If it is, we will have to understand why the situation is the way it is.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Mwape (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that banks needed to cover their costs as they engage in their business. However, the financial statements that the banks publish in the media show that they are making huge profits. This means that they are more than covering their costs.

I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how this Government is preventing the formation of cartels which are generally believed to be determining the interest rates. How is the Government preventing the formation of cartels because the hon. Minister indicated that the Government is doing so?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, just this afternoon, I answered a question about whether there are cartels or not. I indicated that we will continue to encourage credible institutions to come into the country and that, by itself, is an indication that we are doing something about it, if there is such a phenomenon.

On the other hand, with the ever increasing number of banks in the country, I think the chances for cartels being formed are minimal.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister which bank is charging 19 per cent as a borrowing rate per annum.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I am sorry I do not have those details with me.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Mwamba: Madam Speaker, lending and inflation rates are some of the indicators of the status of the economy. Is it not a contradiction that lending rates remain high when the economy is reported to be doing well?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I think the indicators that we have on the performance of the economy are quite clear. We look at whether the economy is expanding or not through the GDP growth rate. Regarding the external factors, we look at whether or not our balance of payments is improving. We also look at other obvious indicators like employment and so on and so forth.

Now, with regard to the issue of interest rates, we are saying that, although the economy is doing very well, we would like the interest rates to be lower because, if that happened, we would expect our economy to perform even better. There is no contradiction in what we are saying. The economy is growing and it continues to grow, but we would like it to do even better. This is why we are working hard to influence the interest rates downwards.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Ntundu: Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to state if the prevailing environment would not compel the banks to reduce their lending rates if BOZ allowed the commercial banks to keep the money they deposit with it.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in the response that I gave earlier, I outlined very clearly the outcomes of a survey that was undertaken to try and understand the factors behind the interest rates that are higher than what we would desire to see given the current status of the economy. The factors which were identified in the survey are the most critical ones. The point raised by the hon. Member does not feature in the responses given by the banks. The key issues are the ones that I have already indicated. These are the cost of doing business and default rate.

Madam Speaker, let me also say that, on a comparative basis, the deposits kept by commercial banks at the Central Bank, which the hon. Member was referring to, are within range with the ones that are in place in other countries. I do not believe that should be the factor we should focus on so much.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): The answer that has been given by the hon. Minister is a clear confirmation that most of the banking institutions in this country.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Ask your question.

Mr Chisala: That being the case, could the hon. Minister tell us whether the prevailing situation is in line with the policies of the MMD Government.

Mr Sichamba: Yes!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I think the question was extremely unclear. Maybe, the hon. Member could repeat the question because I did not understand it.

Mr Chisala Stood up.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Clerk will read the order of the day.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
________

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY BILL, 2010

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, the Bill before this august House seeks to:

(a) establish the Occupational Health and Safety Institute and provide for its functions;

(b) provide for the establishment of Health and Safety Committees at work places and for the health, safety and welfare of persons at work;

(c) provide for the duties of manufacturers, importers and suppliers of articles and substances for use at work; and

(d) provide for the protection of persons other than persons at work against risks to health or safety arising from or in connection with the activities of persons at work.

Madam Speaker, some occupational diseases have been recognised for many years and have affected workers in different ways depending on the nature of the hazard, the root of exposure and the dose amongst other things.

Madam Speaker, every year, new chemicals and new technologies, which present new and often unknown hazards to both workers and the community, are being introduced. These new and unknown hazards present great challenges to workers, employers and everyone concerned about workers’ health and the effects that hazardous agents have on the environment.

Madam Speaker, in presenting this Bill before this august House, the Government is very aware that, everyday, workers all over Zambia are faced with a multitude of health hazards and thus the need by the Government to enact a Bill that will promote occupational health and safety in the country.

Madam Speaker, occupational health and safety encompasses the social, mental and physical well-being of workers. Successful occupational health and safety practice requires the collaboration and participation of both employers and workers in health and safety programmes. This Bill seeks to achieve this much- desired collaboration and participation of both employers and workers in health and safety programmes.

Madam Speaker, the Bill seeks to provide a legal framework for the establishment of the Occupational Health and Safety Board with defined functions and sufficient powers to effectively discharge its regulatory functions. This Bill will help in the prevention of occupational diseases and ensuring that work places are made safe. The Bill provides for the duties of the employers and employees in ensuring that occupational hazards are identified and accidents are minimised at places of work. This will, in the short and medium term, benefit our country as costs of most work related accidents or illnesses to workers and their families could be very high.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is not controversial. It is progressive and timely. I, therefore, urge hon. Members of this august House to support it.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to brief this august House on your Committee’s consideration on the Occupational Health and Safety Bill, 2010 which was referred to it on 24th September, 2010. The objectives of the Bill are as follows:

(a) to establish the Occupational Health and Safety Institute and provide for its functions;

(b) to provide for the establishment of Occupational Health and Safety Committees at workplaces and for the health, safety and welfare of persons at work;

(c) to provide for the duties of manufacturers, importers and suppliers of articles, devices, items and substances for use at work;

(d) to provide for the protection of persons, other than persons at work, against risks to health or safety arising from or in connection with the activities of persons at work; and

(e) to provide for matters connected with or incidental to the forgoing.

Madam Speaker, your Committee considered the Occupational Health and Safety Bill, 2010 and, in doing so, consulted widely in order to gain insight into the ramifications of the Bill. Your Committee invited various stakeholders to make both written and oral submissions before it. These included the relevant Government ministries, trade unions, stakeholders from the private sector and a representative of the employers.

Madam Speaker, before I go any further, allow me to give a brief background of the Bill. Your Committee was informed that, currently, there is no specific institution that deals with general occupational health and safety at places of work in the country. The Workers’ Compensation Act, 1999 mandates the Occupational Health Management Board, which runs the Occupational Health and Safety Bureau, formerly known as the Pneumoconiosis Medical and Research Bureau, to carry out medical examinations of miners, focusing on the effect of silica on them. The Occupational Health and Safety Bill, 2010, therefore, seeks to expand the mandate of the Occupational Health, Safety and Management Board to include occupational health and safety services of all workers in the country.

Madam Speaker, furthermore, the enactment of the law will ensure that there is increased coverage of occupational health and safety services in all sectors of the economy in order to contribute to the promotion of health and safety at places of work.

Madam Speaker, most stakeholders, who appeared before your Committee, were in support of the Bill. However, they raised a number of concerns on certain issues and provisions in the Bill. I will not spend much time on the concerns as they are well documented in the report which hon. Members have read. Nonetheless, let me highlight just a few of them.

Madam Speaker, stakeholders raised concern on the relationship between the Occupational Health and Safety Regulator list in Clause 25 (4) of the Bill and the proposed institute.  They contended that the Bill is silent on whether the institute will take over the functions completely and what will happen to these regulators.

Madam Speaker, other witnesses were concerned about the use of the words, “reasonable practicable” in Clause 16 of Part IV when outlining the duties of employers to employees. It was feared that if this was left in the law, it would give latitude to employers to justify their failure to perform duties placed on them.

Madam Speaker, some of the stakeholders also submitted that provision for exemption in Clause 33, part VII does not state the circumstances and conditions under which the exemptions would be given. They recommended that the circumstances should be clearly stated in the Bill in order to promote transparency and avoid abuse of the provision.

Madam Speaker, like many other stakeholders, your Committee is in support of the Bill. In supporting the Bill, your Committee makes the observations and recommendations which I now highlight.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes that the Bill in Part II, Clause 7 (2) provides that the Minister shall appoint the Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson of the board from amongst the members of the board. Your Committee recommends that while the Chairperson may be appointed by the Minister, latitude should be given to the board members to elect the Vice-Chairperson from among themselves.

Madam Speaker, in Part I, Paragraph 6 of the First Schedule, the Bill provides for immunity for a member of the board or a member of the committee of the board. Your Committee observes that there is no immunity provided for authorised officers appointed for the purpose of enforcing the Act once enacted into law. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the immunity should be extended to authorised officers appointed under Clause 25 (1), of part V.

Madam Speaker, the Bill in Part III, Clause 12 (1) (B) provides that a Health and Safety Committee established in accordance with Section 11 shall be chaired by the employer or the senior most member of management on the committee. Your Committee is of the view that this provision is unfair to the representative of the employees as they would be denied an opportunity to chair meetings of the Health and Safety Committee. Your Committee recommends that the Health and safety Committee should be given the latitude to choose a Chairperson on a rotational basis between the employer or senior most member of management and representative of employees.

Madam Speaker, your Committee further observes that membership of the Occupational Health and Safety Board is skewed towards Government representatives and the private sector may not be well- represented on the board. Your Committee recommends that there should be six members representing various sectors from the Government and five members representing various organisations from the private sector on the board.

Madam Speaker, your Committee realises that the Occupational Health and Safety Board will be handling issues that may be varied and complex in nature in accordance with its functions provided for in Clause 8 of part II. It is concerned that the composition of the board, as provided for in the Bill, may lack certain expertise that may be necessary for the effective performance of its functions. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Bill empowers the board to appoint experts to help it with matters before it whenever need arises.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also observes that the Bill provides for a representative of a trade union to be a member of the board. Your Committee is concerned because there are many trade unions and choosing from one of them may leave many workers unrepresented. In view of the foregoing, your Committee recommends that the provision be amended to read “A representative of a federation or congress of trade unions.”

Madam Speaker, your Committee would like to urge the House to consider the contents of its report as the House proceeds with the Bill.

In conclusion, I wish to pay tribute to the witnesses who appeared before your Committee and tendered both oral and written submissions before it despite the short notice. I also commend the members of your Committee and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for their dedication to duty during the consideration of the Bill. Let me end by stating that your Committee is grateful to you, Madam Speaker, for affording it the opportunity to study the Bill.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, you will notice that some of us look a bit red eyed and exhausted today. This is because we spent most of the night watching the rescue of the trapped miners from San Jose Copper Mine in Chile. The head of the rescue team of the six people who went underground was the last one to come out. He was transported upwards at 5 am this morning and he fell into the arms of the President of Chile who …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

You have a Motion on the Floor.

Dr Scott: Madam Speaker, I am talking about safety.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Yes, but the preamble is a little off and a little too long.

Can the hon. Member focus on the Motion. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Scott: The head of the rescue team said to the President of Chile, “This has got to stop. You are not serious about regulation.” This was the point I was driving at. The President, I think, was waiting to be told off because he said, “Yes, we are very seriously considering the question not just of mining safety in Chile, but also fishing and industrial safety among others.” 

Madam Speaker, the point I wish to underline is that, in this country, when we have a problem, we think that the solution is always a new institution whereas the solution is a new serious attitude. The world at large has been plagued with bumper harvest regulatory failures in the past few years. There have been all sorts of failures such as those in the oil and financial industries due to a culture of careless regulation that is growing up worldwide where the regulator is seen to be a nuisance when he impedes the rapid flow of profit on development.

Madam Speaker, one wonders whether thirty-three Zambian miners would be rescued if trapped nearly a kilometre underground in Chambishi.

Mr Lubinda: Mamama.

Dr Scott: In fact, one wonders whether the pre-conditions for such an event are entirely absent.

The San Jose Mine in Chile was known to be well below the legal standard of any mine in terms of escape and alternative routes and access and underground shelter. International experts knew that the local regulatory framework could not bring itself to enforce the minimum standards that the law required.

Madam Speaker, all I am saying is that along with this new institution, should not just be a rationale of workshops in Kariba or Siavonga, but a serious attitude by the Executive to ensure that the numbers of accidents in the mines, on buses, in factories and farms go down. There must be performance monitoring and a serious attitude. It is very easy if you have a lax culture of enforcement for people to actually enrich themselves by overlooking this or that. I would like to see some mechanism for performance measuring of this new institution. How will the assessment of the accidents going down or increase in number be made? We have the environmental protection unit which it has to interface with.

My brief contribution is simply to say that you do not solve the problems we have merely with new institutions. They have to be done with a new attitude of mind and one would stand and say well, God intended you to die  so, who cares?

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Laughter

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this chance to contribute to the debate on this Bill.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I would like to say that I support this Bill which is well intended because its intention is to protect the workers’ safety.

Madam Speaker, however, like I have read in the report, I wish to say that this Bill was misplaced in the sense that the Ministry of Health cannot handle such delicate issues. You may ask whether the Ministry of Health has the capacity to identify hazards many of which may not be visible. The environment, itself, may tell somebody who is competent that it is not safe and this is what is required to be done. This requires somebody to undergo training related to the particular activities that are being undertaken in such areas.

My understanding is that we are debating an all-round issue that affects many ministries and industries. Therefore, I thought the Ministry of Labour and Social Security would have been the lead ministry to handle this sensitive issue. Now that it has come before the House, I hope that His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, as the presenter of this Bill, will look into that matter and probably revise it.

For instance, the issue is not just mining, but also silica. Do we have the capacity in the Ministry of Health to identify that? Do we have the capacity to determine the amount of dust? Do we have the capacity to determine the amount of heat in the mines? All these are the hazards that can culminate into serious consequences to our workers. I believe that the Ministry of Health is not the right ministry. We need to have independent people such as Government inspectors who must go from industry to industry to check safety issues.

Madam Speaker, let me also comment on the composition of workplace committees. As it has been indicated by the Chairperson of your Committee, I believe that management representatives should not be chairing these committees. If anything, management representatives should just be the secretariat whereas the chairpersons should be the workers, themselves, so that they can also bear that responsibility. We are talking about workers and not the interest of management because management is interested in the end product, that is, the production level that must be achieved. Sometimes, they are blind to how that goal is going to be realised, but the worker is concerned about safety. After all, even before you get the result, you should always ensure that the environment that one is going to work in or under is very safe. I, therefore, suggest that the chairmanship of these committees be given to the workers.

Madam Speaker, the other aspect I want to talk about has to do with the controversy of the regulations that stipulate the maximum penalty of 700,000 units.

Madam Speaker, the value of that unit must be stipulated so that it makes sense. We should know that if somebody contravenes the regulations, this is what is going to be charged. Therefore, it should be specified clearly. Now, since that unit is not known in value terms, I suggest that monetary value should be attached to it.

The other issue is the body corporate institutions who contravene these regulations. The penalty that must be charged if they are found deliberately wanting must equate to the loss that any particular person can suffer and not, for instance, where they are charged K10 million whereas the loss that this particular individual has suffered is worth K100 million. Otherwise, it will not stop these industries and management will not be so effective and concerned because they will realise that after all, we are only going to be charged K5 million. They will say we are not going to buy a fan that is required when they look at the cost of a fan which may be about K20 million. Then, they will think that it is worthwhile for them, should they be found wanting, to actually pay K2 million to the inspectorate rather than buying a fan at K30 million because they are also looking at a way of reducing costs. Therefore, the cost that the body corporate institutions must be charged must be equated to the loss that will be incurred.

Madam Speaker, the other aspect is on the constitution of the board. Whilst I agree on the constitution, I believe that there is an important ministry that has been left out because one of the objectives is that:

… “Not only to protect people in the workplace, but even other persons.”

 There are other overspill activities from operations which, after they overspill, would negatively impact on the lives of the community at large. Therefore, there must be some competent people and environmentalist to also get involved so that they can, at least, advise the industries that this should not be done because it has the potential not only to impact on the worker, but also the community. Therefore, I suggest that the Ministry of Environment, Tourism and Natural Resources should also be involved.

With those few words, I wish to support the Bill.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, I wish to add my voice to the debate which is currently on the Floor concerning the Occupational Safety and Health Institute.

Madam Speaker, to begin my debate, I wish to mention that as this institute is being created by this Bill, we should be mindful that there is already an organisation that has been in existence for a very long time. The Occupational Safety and Health Bureau in Kitwe has been doing this job which the new institute we are creating is supposed to do.

Madam Speaker, I know and I am also sure that the Government knows that the bureau in Kitwe is not operating optimally. It has serious challenges. Most of the times one visits this institution, he/she will find that there are issues of funding and it is not operating to its intended capacity.

Madam Speaker, there is an organisation already set up to look at the safety standards in industries in Kitwe that is not operating optimally, but we are now creating an even bigger institution, through this Bill which we are calling the Occupational Health and Safety Institute which I am not very sure about, but I believe will take over from the one in Kitwe.

This Bill will kill the organisation in Kitwe because it will allow for a new one, which is bigger and more bureaucratic. Madam Speaker, my concern is that we have not succeeded with the other one. Why are we reinventing this one? We have not succeeded with the other one, and yet we are creating a bigger and more bureaucratic institute.

Madam, my proposal to the Government is that we strengthen and improve the operations of the one already in existence. Once it is operational, it will take care of a lot of shortcomings.

Madam Speaker, when I looked through this Bill, I saw in it, already, seeds of failure of this new institute. In particular, I am looking at the scope that has been given to this institute. I will call it the scope of influence. In the Bill, this institute will look at the safety and occupational hazards, as we know them, especially in the mining industry which is what the other institution was doing. It has also been extended to look at buildings. If the design of a building is not correct, the person who designed it will be liable to an offence. It also states that substances or chemicals which are not taken care of correctly will also constitute an offence.

Madam Speaker, in this case, if one talks about designs, he/she is talking about architects. If one talks about substances, he/she is talking about chemical engineers. This institute has been given the mandate to look at the mines so, obviously, it will look at the fumes and electricity. How will this institute cover such a wide scope?

In building designs, architects are governed by their own institution, which is the Zambia Institute of Architects that regulates their profession. Does it mean they will start reporting to this new institute? I believe the answer is no.

Engineers also have the Engineering Institute of Zambia (EIZ) that regulates them in mechanical and chemical fields. If there is any malpractice by any of the members, EIZ regulates its members. These powers have now been given to this new institute, but what will be the correlation? There will be a serious conflict.

Likewise, the oversight role of the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ) has been given to this institute. So, what will the ECZ be doing? Does it mean the ECZ has lost its powers or will it be reporting to this institute? Therein lie the seeds of failure for this institute. It is because the scope has been made wider than that for the other institutes. I do not know if these institutes will be subordinate to this one. This is not clear in the Bill. I do not know whether these ‘subordinate institutes’ will lose their powers to regulate its members to this new institute. It is not clear. For this reason, I would like the drafters of this Bill to make this clear. Already, therein, lie the seeds of failure because of the scope being too wide.

Madam Speaker, essentially, what we need is an industry that will first capture the occupational health and safety industry and then, it can widen its scope from there. We are not managing this.

Madam Speaker, the previous debater mentioned that we have safety challenges in industries in the country. There are a number of fatalities in the mining industry. We have questions of standards. Mine owners flout safety rules by not buying protective equipment and clothing for their workers and this is on record. The owners of some mines do not buy enough tools and equipment because they want to lower their operating costs. All this is happening. As a Government, we are powerless to control these mines. That is where the issue of safety comes in even before you talk about mine accidents. That is where it starts from. There is not enough money invested in safety by the mines.

Madam, underground works attract money. However, when it comes to protecting workers, no measures are taken. It has to take an institute to alert the Government to force mine owners to spend money and ensure that the mining industry is safe. As a country, we have not achieved this and it is not a secret.

However, before the institute we have in place can even achieve this challenge, we have created another institute with a scope so wide that it will not manage. Madam Speaker, therein lie the seeds of failure for this institute. For this reason, I would like the drafters to consider reducing the scope so that we can achieve the basics that we want to achieve. There should be safety in our industries before we start running in all directions, and yet we do not even have the capacity and the expertise to control the situation.

Madam Speaker, as regards the powers given to the hon. Minister, I have noticed that this trend has continued in this Bill. The last time I debated, I called it the bamba zonke trend which means holding all. I do not know why this trend has been followed by the Government.

Madam, Speaker, every Bill that has come to this House in the last few months and has called for the creation of an institute, I have noticed, has given excessive powers to the hon. Minister. Why are we insecure, if I may use that word? Do we not trust the people we give these jobs to? Do we not trust that they will do their jobs?

Madam, for example, in this Bill, as the Chairperson mentioned, the hon. Minister has the power to appoint the board. Besides this, the hon. Minister will also appoint the chairperson and vice-chairperson of the board. Why? The Chairperson of your Committee suggested that only the vice-chairperson of the board should be appointed by the board, but I am saying no. If the hon. Minister appoints the board, let the board choose its own chairperson and vice-chairperson.

Again, in this Bill, the hon. Minister has been given the powers to specify the definition of occupational diseases in a statutory instrument (SI). In the definition, occupational diseases are not defined. However, this provision has been given to the hon. Minister to issue an SI to list down all the diseases. Madam Speaker, I find this very strange because this is not a new science. We know what occupational health and diseases are. There is even a bureau that has been in operation for a long time. Mines and industries have been there and we know all the diseases. Why should we leave it to the hon. Minister to write an SI that will list all the diseases? What if there is a disease, maybe, which is so expensive to treat and he does not want to include it? What do we do as a country?

Madam Speaker, these diseases are known. Let them be listed properly because this is not a new science. We know the diseases that are dealt with in safety health. It, therefore, should not be left to the Minister to write an SI.

Madam, I repeat, please, as a Government, we should not be jittery. We know that you want to control the operations of the country, but when power is excessive, the way it is in these Bills, it becomes a negative. Let the technocrats and the people you have appointed do their job. Give them enough confidence. Otherwise, we will have excess influence by the hon. Minister which we have seen already and the results are poor.

Madam Speaker, I resubmit that the hon. Minister must be restricted to only appointing the board which will do its job.

Again, Madam, in this Bill, the hon. Minister is given the powers to appoint an Appeals Board whose chairperson and vice-chairperson he will appoint. This Appeals Board is questionable. According to the Bill, if anyone has a dispute after the penalties have been submitted, he or she will appeal to the Appeals Board to hear the case, and yet this board is appointed by the hon. Minister. Again, this is a recipe for confusion.

This is worrying because, in the first place, the composition of this Appeals Board is inadequate. If you go through the Bill, you will notice that the composition of the Appeals Board will not be able to handle the complicated cases that come from industries. It is not adequate at all and, already, that is a problem.

The other question is: Where does this Appeals Board report to? This is silent in the Bill. Which board is senior or subordinate? Will it be the main board which the hon. Minister appoints or the Appeals Board? So, we are going to have two boards in this institute. Which board has more powers than the other? Therein lies a big problem which will cause a lot of conflict. For this reason, the drafters of this Bill should specify and state the hierarchy of the two boards. They should specify whether it will be the main board or the Appeals Board that will be superior in order to avoid problems of conflict.

Madam Speaker, in that regard, I wish to state that the appeals procedure should be very clear. I have spent all my working life in industry and I can say that there are complicated cases that arise with regard to safety. If we have this Appeals Board which is inadequate and have a process of the Appeals Board sitting and making decisions, if the appellant is not happy, he/she will appeal to the Supreme Court to consider the case.

Madam Speaker, when such issues are taken to the Supreme Court, they may take more than five years. If that case is serious as is always the case and calls for the closure of the mine, it means the industry will be affected. To avoid the creation of an over bureaucratic system, which is what is happening here, we should simplify the system by creating only one board. We should let one board attend to all issues. We do not need the Appeals Board when the same case is required to go to the Supreme Court. The institute should be allowed to manage issues on its own.

Madam Speaker, coming to penalties, these are specified but the offences are not. I would like to request that these come out clearly because the powers given to the authorised officers are excessive. The inspectors have been given the power to shut down an operation and search the institutions at will. These powers, in my opinion, are excessive. If I am an inspector, I can walk to any institution and shut it down using the powers I have been given in this Bill.

Madam Speaker, if, as an inspector, I am wrong and has a bias against that company or has been sent, what will the companies have as recourse? To avoid such a scenario, we need to be clear on what the offences are so that in administering this Bill, we do not have issues of abuse but harmony in industry. If this Bill is not amended in line with what I have mentioned, we shall have serious discord in industry.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, looking at this Bill, I had problems understanding why it should fall under the Ministry of Health instead of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. The issues found in the Bill fall directly under the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and not the Ministry of Health. As such, I feel the Bill is misplaced.

Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to commend your Committee for the good report that it has produced. When we talk of issues on occupational health and safety, we are talking about issues that need to be prioritised if the people who are working so hard are to be protected from recognised hazards and those anticipated. Hazards come in many forms, but the faithful and committed workers need to be provided with an environment free of these.

Madam Speaker, looking at issues prevailing at the moment, we see a situation that everything that is happening with regard to occupational health and safety has been left in the hands of the employer to decide on what is good for the employees. In supporting this Bill, we should not depend on the goodwill of the employer, but the law to see us through if workers are to be protected.

Madam Speaker, after further scrutiny of the clauses, I found that the Government does not seem to have a policy. I checked at both the Ministry of Health and Labour and Social Security but found no policy on occupational health and safety.  Therefore, I do not know how we came up with all these things.

I would like to say that workers need to have proper protective equipment and clothing which is appropriate for the particular environment they are operating in at all times.

Madam Speaker, currently, what is prevailing in the country is that the people working in industry do not have adequate protective clothing. The contractors are more interested in man hours than the people providing the man hours. In short, they do not have proper protective equipment and clothing. If you go to Manda Hill or Arcades, you will find people working without protective clothing. This morning, when I was driving along Alick Nkhata Road, I found people digging a trench without any safety attire. The safety of the people has been compromised. So, it is important that the Government takes measures to ensure that whatever is stipulated in this Bill is implemented.

Madam Speaker, even the Government workers from the Buildings Department who are working on the roads have highly compromised safety attire. I hope that this Bill will be compelling enough to ensure that people work in a safe environment.

Madam Speaker, when I looked at the report of your Committee, I discovered that the Mines Safety Department (MSD) should have been invited as witnesses and not the Ministry of Mines alone because they have the best experience in this area. They have been working with the various mining firms and they know what regulations to guide their operations are needed.

Madam Speaker, I would like to say that the Bill needs further refining because there are a lot of issues that are misplaced. Some definitions are found in the main body. I feel that clauses like 21(2) should be moved to interpretation. Some terms such as protective clothing have not been defined. We need to have these definitions in their rightful places.

Madam Speaker, when I look at Clause 7 which talks about constitution of the board, while I appreciate the fact that members of the board are representatives of various ministries and institutions, I see a situation where we can have members coming from nowhere. I quote Clause 7(1) of the Bill:

“there is hereby constituted an occupation health and safety board which shall comprise the following part-time members appointed by the Minister”.

I believe this refers to the Minister of Health but I think it should be the Minister of Labour and Social Security. I have no problems with the representatives coming from the ministries lined up under Clause 7(1)(a-i), but my concern is under (j) where it says there are two other persons.

That has been left too open. What are the qualifications of the two other persons mentioned? Are they coming from the community? Where exactly are they coming from? My point is what will stop the hon. Minister from appointing cadres or people who are very close to him/her such as relatives? What will stop him from appointing people who not even qualify if they are his/her friends? It is important that we clearly define these issues so that we know the people who would constitute this board. If it just says two other persons, then I can see a problem with these regulations.

Madam Speaker, further, in Clause 7(v), it says the office of a member shall become vacant upon the member’s death or resignation, but we have not stated that in the  case when the environment that was prevailing at the time these members were appointed changes, they can also leave office. Suppose one was in the Ministry of Health and represents that ministry, if he/she is transferred to the Ministry of Works and Supply, definitely, he/she ceases to represent the Ministry of Health. That is why I thought we should have included a clause to cover that. If we say the two persons are coming from the community and suppose one of them becomes a lawyer then he/she is supposed to vacate the office.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the penalty unit for breaches that may arise, I have no problem with the employer being given 500,000 penalty units. If I am not mistaken, that is about K90 million, but I stand to be corrected. However, for an employee who breaches and is given 300,000 units which is about K54 million, that is a lot of money equivalent to somebody’s pension. I think we need to review that. This might be a deterrent in that the employer and employee might form a cartel and not report these cases and, at the end of the day, we stand to lose out. We must correct these issues rather than being punitive. So, it is important that we reduce on these penalty units for us to have a better law.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to comment on where we have said that the engineers who design plants and workshops should come up with a design that is good enough to provide for everything that we need. We should also add to that clause that engineers should ensure that whatever they design should provide enough access and outlets in case of emergency. Also, to cater for people living with disabilities, I think we should include in the clause that the building should be accessible to people with disabilities.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I thank you.

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Liato): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion on the Floor. Let me start by saying that I was hoping this Bill would be noncontroversial and I still believe it is because it deals specifically with issues to enhance the safety and health of workers at workplaces.

Madam Speaker, let me say that this Bill seeks to bring into being an institute on occupational health and safety. This is very critical and important not only to the safety of our industry, but also enhances issues of health and safety of our fellow country men and women at various workplaces. This Bill seeks to enhance and establish systems. I think that we need systems in our workplaces. When one hon. Member was debating, he said that we need to change our culture. That is what we need to get things going, but attitude in many cases can be moulded by regulations that we put in place. If people are not taught to behave in a particular way, obviously, we cannot change their attitudes. So, when we put systems in place, we obviously work towards changing the work attitude and work culture of our people. This Bill seeks to achieve just that.

Madam Speaker, we have to establish systems so that we can deal with issues of functional capacity, data collection and analysis dissemination of all activities that should go either to individuals or groups of individuals, enterprises, communities and a nation like Zambia as a whole.

Madam Speaker, the intention of this Bill, like I have said before, is to ensure that there is health and safety at workplaces and create an environment that is conducive for our people to work in, but also monitor workers’ general wellbeing at places of work. This will enhance productivity that is so critical in creating wealth and growing our economy.

Madam Speaker, I have heard some people say that we have no systems in place. To the contrary, we have systems in place. In fact, that is the reason we do not have issues of health and safety only at the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. One hon. Member said when he went to check at the Ministry of Labour and Social Security there was no policy. We have a policy. In fact, we have a Department of Occupational Health and Safety and we also have a Factory’s Act in place which was passed by this same House. So, we have a law in place dealing with issues of occupational health and safety. This is what empowers the ministry to go and check what is happening in various institutions such as industry and work in collaboration with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and mines safety commitees to ensure that there is safety at places of work, including the mines. So, we have policies in place and let no one be misled into believing that we do not have policies or programmes in places of work.

Madam Speaker, this Bill seeks to achieve the issues of consolidation and harmonisation because it is not good to work in bits and pieces. One hon. Member of Parliament was talking about the issue of the Occupational Health and Safety Bureau in Kitwe. Now, if you have followed the activities of this bureau, you will see that it has concentrated more in dealing with issues of miners on the Copperbelt. It works with mines safety committees very closely and that is why miners go there for examinations to check on the conditions of their chest and chest diseases. It works very closely with the Workers Compensation Fund Control Board to deal with issues of compensation. So, it has limited functions, but I think that what this Bill will do is obviously to take an interest of what is happening there and what is happening at the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and the Ministry of Health itself, harmonise and consolidate the position that will be more accommodating to all.

Madam Speaker, I want to say that this Bill seems to give us a clear and comprehensive picture and harmonise diverse interests that may be existing in various ministries so that we come up with a consolidated position. I still want to say that this Bill is non controversial and, in fact, I thought that we should have just been giving more encouragement and praises to your Committee. I want to give praise to your Committee for having done a good job in presenting this Bill to this House.

I think I can only equate the negative comments to a situation in a village whereby someone dies from natural causes, but a witch just has to be found and blamed for the death …

Laughter

Mr Liato: … without realising that people can die from natural causes.

Madam Speaker, I wish to support this Bill and thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, indeed, this Bill should not be controversial. I must congratulate your Committee which prepared this excellent report.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Your Committee did a very good job in analysing this Bill and, of course, the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security has also explained, in an expert way, issues to do with occupational health.

Hon. Simuusa should get some expert advice from the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security on what is involved in this type of subject.

Madam Speaker, most of the provisions are not different from some of the provisions contained in other Bills which have passed through this House. I think we have set precedence regarding the appointment of chairpersons and vice-chairpersons of boards of public institutions. The hon. Minister is usually granted powers to appoint persons to these positions. 

As regards the issue of the Appeals Board, this is not the only law with an Appeals Board, as this provision has been included in several other pieces of legislation. I, therefore, do not understand why this should be an issue now. This particular Bill is progressive as we have a National Health Policy and what we are doing is in line with that policy.

As for the issues of which ministry should handle which piece of legislation, that is the prerogative of the President through the Statutory Functions Act.  However, there are pieces of legislation such as this one that require the joint participation of different ministries. Under the piece of legislation which we are considering, the Ministries of Labour and Social Security and Health both have roles to play. So, I urge hon. Members to support this Bill.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 20th October, 2010.

THE BRETTON WOODS AGREEMENTS (Amendment) BILL, 2010

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, the Bill before the House is principally seeking to amend the Bretton Woods Agreements Act so as to provide for the acceptance of the proposed amendments to the articles of agreement of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) so as to enhance the voice participation of other countries and expand the investment authority of the IMF.

The reforms at the IMF are aimed at strengthening the representation of smaller economies through enhancing their basic votes and making the investment authority within the IMF more flexible.

The amendments of the articles of agreements provide for a tripling of basic votes and a second alternate executive director for larger constituencies such as the Sub-Saharan chairs on the executive board. The effect of this increase in basic votes will be to strengthen the representation of smaller economies and protect their vote share in the years to come.

Madam Speaker, by making the investment authority of the IMF more flexible, the reforms will facilitate an increase in resources available for the fund to meet its mandate. I now seek the wholehearted support of this august House in approving this important Bill.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to debate the Bretton Woods Agreements (Amendment) Bill, 2010 which was referred to your Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour for detailed scrutiny. I believe that hon. Members have seen your Committee’s report on the Bretton Woods Agreements (Amendment) Bill, 2010.

Madam Speaker, the Bill before the House is a procedural one in the sense that Zambia, as a member of the IMF, has a responsibility to domesticate or accept resolutions that are passed by the Bretton Woods institutions; the International Monetary Fund, popularly referred to as IMF and the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, popularly known as the Word Bank.

Madam Speaker, the Board of Governors of the IMF, in 2008, passed two major resolutions:

(a) Resolution 63-2 on 28th April, 2008 on quota and voice; and

(b) Resolution 63-3, on 5th May, 2008 on investment authority.

For these resolutions to take effect, three-fifth of IMF members, representing 85 per cent of the total voting power, have to accept them. Most countries, including Zambia need to show acceptance of these resolutions through legislative changes. This is the process we are going through now.

Madam Speaker, let me briefly give some detail on the resolutions. Resolution 63-2 on quota and voice proposed an amendment of the IMF’s Articles of Agreement which will enhance the voice and participation of low-income countries through:

(a) a tripling of basic votes;

(b) a mechanism that will keep constant the ratio of basic votes to total voting power in the IMF going forward; and

(c) provisions enabling each of the two executive directors representing African constituencies to appoint an additional alternate director.

These reforms will result in a significant shift in the representation of dynamic economies, many of which are emerging market economies such as China, India, Brazil and Turkey. The reforms will give poorer countries a greater say in the running of the IMF.   

Madam Speaker, one of the issues your Committee wanted to be clear about is on the benefits to Zambia arising from the reforms. These were given as follows:

(i) increase in the collective voting power of low-income nations. The IMF programmes, as the House may be aware, are well known for their conditionalities. Enhancing the voice of low-income countries will result in greater scope to lobby for reduction of conditionalities and also redefining the use of IMF resources away from the traditional short-term balance of payment support; and

(ii) Zambia’s interests will be effectively represented by the appointment of a second alternative executive director.

Madam Speaker, your Committee was informed that the possible financial implications arising from the reforms regarding the quota and voice will be insignificant. Zambia’s quota share will actually reduce from 0.225 per cent to 0.205 per cent. In the unlikely event that there is a need for Zambia to make additional payments, these will be met from her international reserves. The IMF can also arrange bridge financing for this purpose.

2. Resolution 63-3 on Investment Authority

Madam Speaker, in order to lessen reliance on subscriptions from member countries to finance the operations of the IMF, a new income model has been proposed. The aim of the proposal is to enable the fund have greater efficiency and savings by prioritising activities and lowering administrative spending. The fund further proposes to raise more resources by, among others:

(i) broadening its investment authority;

(ii) selling a limited portion of its gold holdings; and

(iii) declaring a dividend to members when the IMF records a surplus.

Madam Speaker, Zambia will benefit from the reforms by receiving a dividend when it is declared. This means that we shall be assured of resources from the IMF in case of difficulties. The IMF is a good source of short-term financing for balance of payments. The reforms at the IMF are in conformity with the cry of low-income countries for a long time now. Your Committee recommends that the House supports the reforms by passing this Bill.

Madam Speaker, let me end by thanking your office and that of the Clerk for the guidance provided when considering the Bill. I further wish to thank all the witnesses for their written and oral submissions on the Bill.

On behalf of hon. Members of your Committee, I wish to urge the House to support the Bretton Woods Agreements (Amendment) Bill, 2010.

Thank you, Madam.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the House for the overwhelming support.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 20th October, 2010.

 

___________

MOTION

BUDGET 2011

(Debate resumed)

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to say something about the 2011 Budget.

Madam Speaker, allow me, firstly, to say that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is my former lecturer and so I will have some professional humility when debating. Therefore, allow me to openly express how I feel about this budget because I intend to tear it apart.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, with humility, may I debate ...

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

There is no lecturer/student relationship in this House. Therefore, the hon. Member will debate according to the rules of the House.

You may continue.

Mr Hamududu: Madam, thank you very much for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, from the onset, let me say that Zambia, not out of our making, hard work or planning, is standing at a verge of greatness, but lacks strong and political will to move forward. This country is blessed with natural resources, rich soils, good rains and investors come with a high level of mining activities, but failing to take off because of poor political will at the very top. If it were a plane, it would have just been at the airport, but failing to take-off. This is very unfortunate. I hope we shall not lose the opportunity to take off on account of time. We can enjoy a lot if we were to take off. I appreciate the work being done by the civil servants across the country under very difficult circumstances. However, this country lacks political will to move forward.

Madam, the figure for personal emoluments in this country’s budget is too high. It should be reduced to a particular threshold. It is very ironical that the majority of civil servants still earn meagre salaries, and yet the figure for personal emoluments is big. What is the problem? We must address it. I appeal to the Government to do something about this.

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Hamududu: We do not even have that many civil servants. There is something wrong. The people at the top in the Civil Service hierarchy enjoy hefty conditions of service at the expense of the majority. That must be addressed.

 The Government is under pressure from the IMF and other agencies it works with to control the wage bill, and yet people earn very little. There is something wrong with the formula or the matrix of the salaries in this country that needs to be addressed. Civil servants need to be rewarded accordingly.

Madam Speaker, this budget is too ambitious and ironical. An ambitious budget has been presented in the environment of a growing economy and declining revenue. What a paradox. How are we going to finance a K20 trillion budget? The President clearly mentioned, in this House, that our revenue was declining proportionately to the growing economy. How can you be so ambitious as to embark on so many things? Are we headed for a debt trap?

Madam Speaker, our economy is growing with high mining activities, but with no corresponding revenue going to the Treasury.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Hamududu: There is something wrong. Whose growth is that? How will the expanding social services be financed? I note that the Government is building a lot of schools and health facilities. However, what is the price in the long-term? How will the Government finance the operations of those social services if it does not get enough revenue to diversify the economy? Mining and the high copper prices are temporary. The prices will go down and, eventually, the copper will deplete. We are supposed to be getting enough revenue to diversify the economy, and yet we are not doing that. We are making a very big mistake.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, sometimes, I get tempted to say that, perhaps, we should put mining on hold and allow ourselves to think properly. Our resources are being raped. Of what benefit is the growth in mining to our economy? Yes, we have recorded an impressive growth of 6.6 per cent, but for what? Most of the mining companies pay workers below the tax threshold and, therefore, we cannot even get enough taxes.

Madam Speaker, I have heard the argument on the windfall tax by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I contend that if the Government substitutes the windfall tax for something else, let that something else show. However, it is not. It is as simple as that.

Madam Speaker, when the windfall tax was introduced in 2008, it was evident that we, as a country, were poised to get enough revenue into the Treasury. However, we are now borrowing, and yet we can get money from the mines. It is not right.

Madam Speaker, I am not being rigid, but if we did away with the windfall tax, the expectation would be for the substitute to work. However, from what we have seen, it is not working. At the moment, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is struggling to release money to the spending agencies because there is no revenue going to the Treasury. Hon. Dr Musokotwane is even growing older by the day because he is struggling to get money, and yet we have such mining activities. What sort of investment is this?

Madam, I know that there is no windfall tax in Chile, but the biggest mine there is owned by the State and, therefore, money is directly obtained from the mining operations.

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: To go without windfall tax in our mining industry, perhaps, we should have owned Konkola Deep Mines in Chingola after Anglo-American Corporation pulled out so that the Government would have had a stake in copper mining, particularly in view of the current favourable price of copper.

The Government is still busy inviting investors into the mining sector. Can it start its own mines if it cannot tax the foreign companies that have invested in the mining sector so that we, as a country, can also enjoy the benefits of the mines?

Madam Speaker, the Copperbelt developed because the mines were owned by the Zambian Government and, therefore, the money earned from the mines was ploughed back into the communities.

Hon. Member: Tell them.

Mr Hamududu: You can say that the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) failed. Yes, it failed in some areas, but made it in others. Chingola and Luanshya were the most beautiful towns in Southern Africa because the money from the mines was ploughed back into beautifying them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mining in Zambia has boomeranged. I have been to Lumwana, which is such a massive investment. It is good for the investors because, while they send their money out of the country, our Kwacha grows weaker and our interest rates higher. They make the money and take it away. This is why we are now wondering who, really, owns this economy.

Madam Speaker, as regards the issue of per capita income, Hon. Dr Musokotwane knows very well that the gross domestic product (GDP) that we are using is not the right term to use because it does not exclude the contribution of foreign investment by foreign nationals to the economy. If we exclude the net property income from abroad, the wealth that is produced by foreign nationals, and arrive at the gross national product (GNP), which is close to what Zambians own, you will be shocked to learn that this country is owned by foreigners.

 Now, the Government is boasting about the per capita income. Which variable is it using? If it is using the national income, the true national income … – my lecturer is smiling. I think he is proud of me.

Madam Speaker, the GDP minus the net property income from abroad with foreign ownership will give you the GNP. If you subtract depreciation, you then arrive at the net national product (NNP). The NNP is what you call true income. It is this that you divide by the population to find the per capita income.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: This per capita income that you are flashing around is not correct because that is not our ownership.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Hamududu: We need to know what the Zambian nationals own. I do not care whether they are of Asian origin or the Chinese who have become Zambians because they have become my brothers. However, how much wealth do the Zambian nationals who possess the Zambian national registration cards own?

Madam Speaker, this reflects the status of our economy because whereas we have a growing economy, the revenue is declining because the economy is owned by foreigners. Therefore, we must tax them.

Madam Speaker, our country is being robbed of its resources. We know that mining is a wasting asset and you continue to seek more investment. Yes, the economy will grow even at 12 per cent and you will get nothing. It is good that the Government is building schools and clinics, but it must also consider the source of the money needed to sustain quality in these schools and stock medicines in the health facilities.

Hon. Mulyata, listen.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: You know, if I were in the Government, I would listen to the Opposition and heed their advice, but you are just arguing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: We will meet on the political platform. Next year, will be a very serious year. Some of us are at the gym and will be ready to take you on. In propaganda and at rallies, we are going to hit and a few of you should be prepared to come to this side. We need to manage this country better.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Let it be known that we shall tax the mines and use the money to diversify the economy. At the moment, this country, with so much mining activities going on, is failing to buy maize. What is maize? Oh my goodness! We are failing to raise K1 trillion to buy maize.

Madam Speaker, earlier, in his ministerial statement, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives said that the Government needed K1 trillion to buy maize. However, in this budget, K150 billion has been allocated to buy maize. Is this a campaign gimmick because the Government usually borrows money to buy maize? Why does it not plan? Get the money from the mines and buy the maize.

Hon. Opposition Member: Correct!

Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, the maize marketing in this country has to be reviewed. We are failing to buy maize at just K1 trillion. The envisaged revenue from the windfall tax was supposed to be about US$500 million per year. This was going to be around K2.5 trillion, is it not?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Hamududu: With that kind of money, we could have bought maize and worked on our roads. We are letting the mining companies get away with that word which is unparliamentary, ‘murder’. It is unparliamentary and I withdraw it.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, the theme of my debate is “Growing economy, Proportionately Declining Tax Revenue.” This is bad. We are struggling with the energy sector needing serious investment in the wake of wonderful opportunities to export power in the region. However, we are failing to raise money to improve and increase the energy generation in this country. Instead, we are resorting to borrowing. We can export power and the electricity sector alone can bring so much revenue to this country.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Give us the power and see how Tonga economics work and my colleagues and I will show you how to manage the economy.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, I would like to continue my debate from where I left before business was suspended by quoting Ellen G. White who said that:

“The world today is in want of men and women who will stand for the truth even when the Heavens fall down. The world is in want of men and women who will not be bought …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Hamududu:

“… and will speak the truth.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: This must also come into politics because we must provide the necessary leadership.

What is lacking in Zambia and Africa is the right political will to move this country and continent forward. Actually, in the political arena, this country is populated with people with a very weak political will. The political will in this country must be heightened to give the people the right leadership to take this country forward. We really stand right at the balcony of greatness, but we are failing to come out and enjoy the greatness that God has bestowed on this country. I want to tell this Government that there is a lack of a strong and correct political will to change this country for the better. This is lacking and we will make it very clear as we go forward.

Madam Speaker, as my time to debate is almost coming to an end, I would like to comment on the issue of empowerment funds, which I would like to urge the Government not to politicise. You know, we are not learning from history. In the past, we had the Zambia Co-operative Federation (ZCF), Lima Bank, Credit Union Savings Association (CUSA) and many other agencies. Loans from these organisations were given politically and what happened to these organisations is history. These loans must be given to viable projects. It does not matter who gets a loan. It can be a politician or not, but the project must be viable. Already, the empowerment funds are being given on political, friendship or patronage lines and, very soon, the repayment will be very poor. Where are the repayments from loans being acquired from these funds? We want to see a report of how people who got money are repaying that money so that other Zambians can also borrow.

Mr Chazangwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: This money must not be given once and for all. It is not fair.

Mr Chazangwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Madam, these funds must not be politicised. It will not help to just complain about the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) not working properly. Let the CEEC work professionally and give money to viable projects. It does not matter whether it is a politician applying for funds or not, if the project is viable, he/she must be given the money.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: The basis of giving these loans must be their viability. That is all.

 Madam Speaker, very soon, we shall ask that a report of how the empowerment funds are performing be tabled in this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: There is no need in allocating so much money, K67 billion, on something that is just going to go bust. We must learn from what happened a few years ago. I resigned from the ZCF as an undergraduate because ploughs were being grabbed from the farmers. I refused to be a part of that and resigned in the corridor.

Mr Mabenga: Coward!

Mr Hamududu: I just demanded for a paper from the manager on which to write my letter of resignation. The manager asked, “Are you resigning?” I told him that I was resigning because I could not get a plough from a farmer. I asked him why they were giving loans to farmers when they knew that their projects were not viable. So, I resigned in the corridor, in Choma. I said, “No, I cannot stand this.”

Hon. Government Members: You are a coward!

Mr Hamududu: Yes, I resigned.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member debating must do so through the Chair.

Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Hon. Government Members: You failed your people.

Mr Hamududu: Madam, I cannot fail my people.

Hon. Government Members: You did!

Mr Hamududu: Yes, a man cannot live on bread alone. That is the problem with you people in Government. You just want to live on bread to make your tummies bigger.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: You must be principled.

Finally, one of the biggest problems that the hon. Ministry of Finance and National Planning is facing is that of poor service delivery by the line ministries, provinces and spending agencies. Again, it is because of the lack of political will. When I become minister, …

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: … I will tell the President that I am ready to shake up everything in my ministry and if he will not want that, he should not appoint me. In the same vein, hon. Members in the Executive must push the President. If nothing is happening, kulibe kulibe.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: There is nothing.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member has already warned of what will happen at some campaign rallies. That is where that language may be used. This is Parliament and the language used must be parliamentary. No ‘palibe palibe’.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member may continue.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance and I withdraw the words ‘kulibe kulibe’.

Finally, as regards work plans, there are a few examples …

Professor Lungwangwa: Yes, they are there!

Mr Hamududu: … such as the Infrastructure Department, under Hon. Lungwangwa, that have clear work plans. We really take note of clear work plans. The hon. Minister of Health has clear work plans on health posts. Why do other ministries not have work plans? For example, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development does not have a clear work plan to guide us on how many dams it is going to construct in a particular year. Nothing! At least, the Ministry of Works and Supply has clear work plans on roads, but there is no funding. Why have plans without funding? Get money from the mines and fund the road sector.

Madam Speaker, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to impress upon the hon. Ministers to have clear work plans so that we know what they are going to do by name. How can you construct three dams in one year? The whole lot of Government! That is not right.

 In the last few months that you are in power, please, people in Government, pull up your socks and deliver a little before we come in.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Deputy Minister of Lands (Mr Mabenga): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Motion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, on 8th October, 2010, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning walked into this House with a copper briefcase.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: In that briefcase, he was carrying a message from His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia to this House and the nation at large on what this Government, here, has planned for next year.

Madam Speaker, I personally found the message that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning delivered to this House to have a lot of goodwill from the leadership in the Government. Goodwill only comes when there is planning and people are able to see, touch and hear what is being done for them. I find that this speech is one that must be commended and accepted by all the people of this country.

Madam Speaker, the duty of any government is to ensure that its people do not go hungry.

Dr Puma: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: That is the primary responsibility of any well-meaning government. It is to ensure that the people do not go without food by encouraging them to go into agriculture.

Madam Speaker, in this speech, this is explained very clearly for the people of this country to see what their Government is doing.

Madam Speaker, on page 7 of this speech, it clearly states:

“Mr Speaker, the Government continues to pursue national and household food security. In my last address to this House, I allocated resources for the nationwide rehabilitation of grain silos and storage sheds. I am pleased to report that the storage sheds at Chambeshi, Chisamba, Kalomo and Kapiri-Mposhi have been completed. Sheds in Mbala, Mufumbwe, Petauke and Serenje will be completed by the end of the year.”

Madam Speaker, the fact that these silos and storage sheds have been rehabilitated means that they were in a bad state at one point. If the Government is able to put things right for the good of the people of this country, I think and believe that that is what political will is all about. The Government should be able to prepare for the people of the country. The goodwill that Pule was talking about is here.

Hon. Government Member: Lubinda has run away.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, the goodwill is here to be seen, felt and heard about. I do not want to talk about seeing only, lest I be accused of not talking about other people who can only feel and only hear. What the Government is doing is there for the good of everybody in this country, regardless of what they are. 

Madam Speaker, the fact that agriculture is being addressed adequately in the speech indicates the need to encourage people. I will give a typical example of my own constituency, if you allow me, Madam Speaker. In my constituency, it has taken years to see development. In my area, we built sheds which were just like white elephants because they never stored anything. This year, in that part of the country, we are able to see thousands of bags of maize being produced. If you go to Nawinda, you will see what is happening there. Those guys (pointing at the Opposition) came to Nawinda and they were beaten twice.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Chair advises that you speak through the Chair and stop pointing at people because the Chair cannot see any guys in this House. There are hon. Members in the House.

The hon. Deputy Minister may continue.

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. I meant the hon. Members from the other side. What I am trying to emphasise is that the good policies of this Government have been received very well by the people, even in the remotest parts of this country. I have received reports that every farmer in that area, who supplied maize to the FRA, has been paid.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: So, no one has not been paid. The people in that area are now able to buy canters, land rovers and a lot of other commodities. That is what development is all about. That is exactly what the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport was talking about in this House. The number of vehicles is increasing because people are able to have money to buy those vehicles. This is because of the good policies that His Excellency the President and his Government are formulating. No one should doubt the possibility of President Banda winning back his presidency next year …

Interruptions

Mr Mabenga: … because people are able to see.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mabenga: Those who question this, will question no more because next year, President Banda is going back to State House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I also would like to talk about energy. People have already talked about it on the Floor of this House. Hon. Minister, you have my support. As far as I am concerned, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development has a master plan. Those who do not read what they receive in their pigeon holes should begin to do so. The master plan was given to every hon. Member of Parliament. In fact, at one time, there was a workshop somewhere and people were asked to indicate their priority areas. Today, we see Kabompo being transformed into a hydro-electric power station. Is that not progress? Who, for many years since this country became independent, ever thought of Kabompo having such a facility?

Interruptions

Mr Mabenga: If you thought about it, have you ever put anything in place, practically? You have not because you do not have the means and plans. You should go to Itezhi-tezhi, Kafue Lower Hydro Electricity Station and other places and see the developments there. In fact, the Rural Electrification Authority (REA), today, is, indeed, an authority in the rural areas.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: There are many places that have received and will receive electricity through the REA. If you go to Luapula and Northern provinces, it is there. It is in every part of this country. In fact, like I mentioned last time, for so many years, Sichili Mission Hospital and Mulobezi Township were not connected to the national grid. No one had ever thought of having that place connected to the grid. Today, things are happening there.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: You think you can win when you go there as a small president? You can never win in that place.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: This is because you are doing nothing. I have been charged today. K25 billion is going there and that is not a small amount of money. That money is going to light up that area. After so many years, this will be done.

Madam Speaker, the other time I was talking to the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources about some facility which could be promoted. It would have been very difficult to operate without electricity, but now with electricity, I am very sure that it will be easily promoted. The electrification programme is not only in Mulobezi, but also Luampa and Sikongo. What else are people talking about when they talk about political will? What kind of political will do you talk about? Unless you talk about political will along the streets, somewhere in some compounds, then you can talk about it. Otherwise, if it is political will in the country, then this is the political will we are talking about.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I would like to very briefly talk about sport which many people have talked about in this House. This is one area that is being promoted by this Government through the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, sport is very important to keep fit. If one is not fit, he/ she will either not live long or become old too quickly and begin to blame other people for his/her creased head and skin.

Laughter 

Mr Mabenga: This Government is encouraging people to get involved in sport. We have a very capable young man heading the Zambia Amateur Athletics Association (ZAAA).

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Those who hate him must know that he is capable …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: … of running that organisation extremely well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: We are very happy with him. Those who hate him must drink their water properly.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: I see some of them holding their water bottles right now.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I am emphasising that people must never ever have any hard feelings for other people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: When people are doing the right thing, they must be left alone. Do not talk about other people for no cause at all. It does not help in life. It is very important that you say good things about people because they will also say good things about you. As far as we are concerned, the young man is doing a very good job.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: We will make sure that he continues to lead that organisation because he is teaching people to fight against malaria and HIV/AIDS through sport.

Madam Speaker, as far as we are concerned, sport in this country is beneficial to the people. You must never attempt to fight a person like him because we will fight you instead.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister should not dwell on this person who is not being mentioned. Let us also not debate individuals in that manner. The fear is that you may incite other people to debate negatively.

Can you, therefore, come back to the Budget Speech?

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I am responding.
 
Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The ruling has been made.

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I withdraw my statement.

Madam Speaker, with regard to health, it is true that the figures that have been indicated here show that this Government is there to service the people of this country. This is why I am saying that there is political will in this speech. No one in this House can refute the fact that hospitals, health centres and health posts are being built all over the country …

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: … for the good of the people of this country.

Madam Speaker, we are doing this so that people can see that their resources are being put to good use. This is unlike going to Taiwan to get loans that you cannot pay back like certain people who are now being followed.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, education, in this speech, has been supported very strongly. It is just proper that we take cognisance of the fact that the Government has put forward a plan through a speech and by a group of people who plan the financial disbursement of the funds of the country. We must be able to understand that they are doing this for the good of the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, we know the good works that the Chinese are doing in this country in building schools throughout the country. They are a very good co-operating partner.

Two new schools have been constructed and electrified in my constituency. I am yet to come across any problems concerning these schools. If you have problems, you have to solve them. I would like to emphasise that the Chinese, Japanese and all other co-operating partners who are helping to deliver services to people must be commended. We must be able to work with them and thank them for a job well done. A person cannot be bad simply because he/she will not do what you want him/her to do.

Madam Speaker, I wish to emphasise that what this Government is doing is not an experiment. We are doing this so that come 2011, the people of this country will be able to see what else they can get if they vote for this Government. As a matter of fact, it is not if they vote, but when they vote for this Government. We will come back and you will still be sitting there, only in smaller numbers. We know that some of you will come to this side of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: I know them because I am the Chairman.
 
Laughter

Mr Mabenga: They will come here.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

There is only one Chair here.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member is not known by that title.

You may continue.

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I am sorry. I am Chairman outside.

Laughter
 
Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to debate. I hope that my debate has indicated the fact that this Government has good and exemplary political will …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: … to move this country forward.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema (Chingola): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to participate in the debate of the 2011 Budget Address whose theme reads: “A people’s Budget from a People’s Government”.

Madam Speaker, in any budget, the domestic, corporate or national resource envelope is always a challenge. This is so even in the biggest world economies. The trick, however, is in the prudent use of the resources in terms of prioritising.

Madam Speaker, the other component which is cardinal is transparency. This can be illustrated in a domestic economy. No matter how equitably you think you have used the resources in a home, if there is no transparency, fights will not end. This is even more so in the national economy where the stakeholders are many and divergent in their views.

Madam Speaker, when the Mines and Minerals Development Act was amended in this House, we were told that, with the introduction of the windfall tax, monies collected from this tax shall be put in a separate account and that the Executive will be updating this House on how this money will be utilised. To date, I have never heard any update. I stand to be corrected, but I have never seen or heard the Executive coming here to tell us how this money has been used. The only thing we heard was the Executive coming to this House to remove the windfall tax.

Madam Speaker, allow me to zero in on a sector which I understand best and that is the health sector. For quality health to be delivered, there has to be infrastructure, tools and qualified manpower to carry out the work. No matter how beautiful and modern the infrastructure that you have put up is, without qualified manpower, there is no health service delivery to talk about. That is where the issue of priority creeps in.

 Madam Speaker, we have seen surgery, obstetric and gynecology and medicine being conducted successfully even under a tree if there is a qualified, well motivated and innovative cadre and equipment. This is done in war-torn places. If you remove manpower from a beautiful building that building ceases to be a health centre.

Madam Speaker, you will be amazed to watch how many procedures I can conduct on that very table that you are sitting at given the correct equipment …

 Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member will debate without pulling the Chair and the Table into his debate.

 May the hon. Member continue.

Dr Katema: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for that guidance.

Madam, those are the issues which doctors at the UTH were raising when they went on strike. We are seeing health centres which the Government is hurriedly putting up before sorting out the issue of shortage of qualified manpower in the existing health centres.

Madam Speaker, today, there are  classified daily employees (CDEs) or one overworked and demoralised nurse running an entire health centre, acting as a clinical officer, midwife and an environmental health technician, all in one, and  yet we are hurriedly putting up a lot of infrastructure without sorting out the existing problems.

Madam Speaker, I once worked in Mbala in an area called Iyendwe. When I went there in 1991, the health centre was run by a school leaver who was a CDE. When I left that area, I left the same person as the only one running that health centre. To date, this health centre is being run by a CDE, and yet we are busy building other health institutions which we cannot even man.

Madam Speaker, from time immemorial, the health sector has been greatly assisted by our co-operating partners. It is correct to say that, to an extent, if this sector is not assisted by our co-operating partners, it can collapse right in our faces.

Madam Speaker, let me demonstrate this by saying that universal child immunisation which has been so successful to the extent that the hon. Minister of Health came to this House and said, “We can boast of a very high percentage of children who are fully immunised and protected in the African region” is heavily funded by our co-operating partners.

Madam Speaker, the Roll Back Malaria Programme, which has seen incidences of malaria reduced reasonably, has been assisted by the Global Fund. The treatment of TB and HIV/AIDS has been successful because of the Global Fund. Even the Rural Retention Scheme for doctors was begun by our Dutch partners.

The Government has pledged, on the Floor of this House, to scale up this scheme to other cadres such as clinical officers, environmental health technicians, laboratory technicians and others. Where will the money come from?

Madam Speaker, all of us were served with a copy of the Strategic Health Plan, a very beautiful document, indeed. This document has stipulated how the gap in the establishment of the health sector shall be closed up and how the issue of the brain drain shall be addressed.

Madam Speaker, there is a very large deficit in resource mobilisation in the plan. I assume that it was assumed by the Government that the gap shall be closed by our co-operating partners. So, to come to this House and pretend that we can do everything without any assistance from our co-operating partners, is like playing hide and seek.

Madam Speaker, the Government will do well to sit down with our co-operating partners and iron out the transparency issues in the usage of the money which is being given to us rather than continuing to play hide and seek.

Madam Speaker, prudent budgeting is all about careful prioritisation. If, today, we went to any rural health centre or any health centre and asked the people who are working there what should be done to improve the health of the people in their catchment area, nobody is going to talk about a mobile hospital. Let me illustrate this. The answer will be uniform. It will be, “Please, increase the manpower” because the health workers who are there are overstretched. To motivate the health workers, please, give them equipment, drugs and transport.

Madam Speaker, there is nothing more frustrating for a midwife in a rural health centre, maybe 100 or 200 km away from the nearest district hospital, than to watch a woman die in labour or a baby with diarrhoea who is severely dehydrated. In some instances, the nurse cannot put up drip on the baby because the veins have collapsed. The child needs to be transported to the nearest health institution where a doctor can do a very simple procedure of putting a drip on that child. However, there are no ambulances to transport that pregnant woman or sick child to the nearest district hospital. There is nothing more frustrating than that.

Interruptions

Dr Katema: Instead of buying an ambulance, alas, Madam Speaker, the Government decided to buy mobile hospitals to be stationed in provincial centres, as if it is possible to plan when a woman shall go into labour somewhere in a village or when a child shall be hit by a very life-threatening condition. In this case, how do we reduce child mortality and maternal death? People need an ambulance at every health post and health station so as to transfer their patients promptly.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order.

Dr Katema: Madam Speaker, before the infamous mobile hospital comes, a pregnant woman somewhere in a village or in a health post would have been in pain a hundred times …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Dr Katema: … over than a woman who has received adequate medical attention.

Ms Kapata: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: That is if she is unlucky. If she is lucky, she will end up with a very bad complication such as the vesicle vaginal fistula (VVF) or rectal vagina fistula (RVF).

Ms Kapata: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Madam Speaker, these are health conditions I would not want to dwell so much on. However, I would like to point out that no woman would want to end up with such conditions. They would rather die than have such a condition.

Mr V. Mwale: Aah!

Dr Katema: That is how bad the complications can be.

Ms Kapata: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Madam Speaker, I feel sad when I look at the cover of the Budget Speech. I can see a child with an elongated finger which is disproportionate to the rest of the fingers. I do not know whether the photographer was trying to show the symbol of some political party here. Of course, when a child has a problem with a finger, she might manage to wait for a mobile hospital. However, when the child is hit by a life-threatening condition, that child cannot manage to wait for a mobile hospital.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Madam Speaker, you have observed that the people on your left are not very keen to take part in the debate regarding this budget. Why? This is because this budget is all about the Executive putting in place a lot of things that the Zambian people can see, but not use, enjoy and appreciate, such as …

Mr V. Mwale: Like what?

Dr Katema: … clean hospitals without manpower, health centres which have not been opened and may never open because the Government cannot even manage to provide manpower for the existing ones. We also have stacks of maize out there which might get soaked in due course when the farmers …

Mr V. Mwale: On a point of order.

Dr Katema: … are interested in seeing money being put in their pockets after working so hard instead of them just looking at their produce. There is nothing enjoyable about that because they have seen it all before.

Mr Lubinda: Go on man!

Dr Katema: Madam Speaker, the hon. Members on your left, are not participating in the debate regarding the Budget Speech because it is empty and composed of just mere campaign rhetoric.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Dr Puma): Madam Speaker, thank you very much, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Ee ma doctor aya!

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for the Budget Speech that was delivered on the 8th of October, 2010.

Madam Speaker, in my view, this Budget Speech is quite unique compared to other budget speeches which have been delivered before in this House. It is unique in the sense that it was detailed to the extent that by the time we were leaving this House after its presentation, we had an idea, at least, of what the budget was all about.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: I know that there have been budget speeches before this one whereby you just know the actual figures by the time you are leaving the House and not what the figures will translate into. I would like to commend you for coming up with a system which actually gives us an idea of what is going to be done with our money as you present the budget.

This Budget Speech was unique, factual, very specific and unambiguous. I commend you for that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, I would also like to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for the work that he is doing in raising revenue for this country. Looking at the budget presentation and what is prevailing in the country, it is very clear that Zambia, today, has been turned into a country where a lot of construction works are taking place.

The Government and the private sector are working together to ensure that construction works are going on across the country. When you drive around Lusaka, you will see a lot of construction works going on. If you go to the Chainama area, you will find that there is a beautiful hospital coming up there.

Mr Lubinda: Mukachose chi poster!

Dr Puma: If you go to Chadiza, …

Mr Mbewe: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: … you will find that there is a hospital being constructed there. If you go to Lufwanyama, you will find that there is a hospital being constructed there, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: …including Masaiti. The whole country has become a construction site.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: This is what development is all about.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: For the first time in the history of this country, we have twenty-six hospitals being constructed at the same time. If this was the situation in the past, whereby in one year, twenty-six hospitals were constructed, I think, by this time, we would not be talking about hospitals.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: We would have been talking about something else. This is commendable.

There are 125 health posts being constructed in one year.

Mr Kapeya: Where?

Dr Puma: If this was the situation in the past, I think we would not have been talking about health posts and clinics. We would have been talking about something else. This is commendable.

Mr Lubinda: Niva campaign chabe!

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, there have been insinuations that the hospitals being constructed will not be matched with available manpower. I would like to inform the hon. Members who are in doubt that this Government has already put measures in place for the purposes of satisfying the labour needs of these hospitals being constructed. If you go to most of training institutions, you will find that we have already constructed hostels and expanded classroom space for nurses.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: If you go to Chikankata, Monze and Mwinilunga, you will find that we have expanded these training schools. You can see that as we construct the hospitals, we are also already training the manpower required. So, do not worry about the manpower issue. We are working on it.

Hon. Government Members: Tell them!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Commerce!

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, it is also good to note that over thirty high schools and many basic schools are being constructed in many districts.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: This is pure evidence that the whole country has been turned into a construction site and this is commendable. Now, what more development do people need? If I asked anyone who wished to be in politics what they would do if they became either president or Member of Parliament, they would talk about constructing hospitals and schools and training health professionals and teachers and this is what this Government is doing.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: In other words, the people should give this Government a chance to continue delivering, particularly that the country has been turned into a construction site.

Madam Speaker, on page 20 of the Budget Speech, there is a statement the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning made on the issue of the empowerment fund. He said the following:

“The spirit of entrepreneurship runs in every Zambian. This Government will continue encouraging this spirit, …”

Madam Speaker, this was a very good statement. Based on this statement, I would like to urge Zambians to continue with the spirit of entrepreneurship and the hon. Members to start, if they have not started, or enhance this spirit.

Madam Speaker, research has shown that 95 per cent of the dollar billionaires are self-employed. When you find yourself preparing a curriculum vitae (CV) to find a job, it means that you are running away from a profession that is known to produce billionaires. If you have children across the country preparing CVs for jobs, it means you are not on the right path. We need to encourage them to be entrepreneurs because those known billionaires worldwide are in self-employment.

Interruptions

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, it is clear that there are very few jobs in the country and worldwide that can satisfy one’s daily needs and so the best alternative is to become an entrepreneur if one has to succeed and become one of the billionaires of this world.

Madam Speaker, as we look at what the Government is doing for the country, we need to reflect on what we, as individuals, are doing to develop the country. As I interact with my colleagues, I see that almost each one of them has plans on what they intend to do in the year to come. Unfortunately, a good number of people die with their plans in the head. Even when they are sick and bed ridden, they still say, “If I was given time, I would have done this”, and yet they did not do those things when they were able to.

Madam, I tried to closely analyse what is hindering us from improving economically. I looked at some of my findings. When one looks at the life expectancy in Zambia, as it is now, it is forty years at birth. I have placed an emphasis on ‘at birth’. This means that the chances of someone born today, with all the probabilities of diseases, accidents and whatever issues prevailing, are that he/she will live up to forty years. However, the life expectancy for a person who is twenty years old is no longer forty years because it goes up. For example, it does not mean that one has reached their expiry date when they are forty years.

Laughter

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, the life expectancy of someone who is forty years old changes and they may live up to the age of seventy or eighty years as long as they are healthy and free of disease. If one is sixty years old and they have no high or low blood pressure, no sugar and other diseases, their life expectancy changes and they can live up to ninety years old.

Interruptions

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, this is why when we talk about life expectancy, we insist on it being at birth.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us listen to the explanation.

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, coming back to developmental plans, which remain in the heads, I looked further on the reflections and analysed that the life expectancy of most hon. Members was no longer forty years because some are beyond that age whilst others are approaching it. Furthermore, most hon. Members who do not have major health problems will reach the age of seventy years and above.
 
Mr Munaile: Like VJ will reach 100.

Laughter

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, I looked further because I was trying to establish why, despite living on earth for seventy years, a number of people seem to die with plans in their heads. I started calculating that if one made a decision to rest one day of each week, for example, on Sundays, and lived for seventy years, he or she would have spent ten years resting.

Laughter

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, I went a step further …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Puma: … and said, suppose …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

I think this is an opportunity for all of us to listen to information which is being offered at no charge and analyse whether it is going to be useful or we want ten years of rest.

The hon. Deputy Minister may continue, please.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, I used to rest on Sundays and I added Saturdays, but when I made the calculations, I discovered that if I continued with that way of life for seventy years, it would mean that I would have been resting for twenty years of the seventy years, which is very dangerous.

Laughter

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, as doctors, we advise people to rest, by way of sleeping, for, at least, six to eight hours in a day. When I calculated, I found out that if you sleep for eight hours in a day for seventy years, it means that you will have spent twenty-three years sleeping.

Laughter

Mr Munaile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munaile: Madam Speaker, this is the first time I am raising a point of order. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to tell hon. Members of this House and the nation that we are not supposed to rest, and yet God tells us that we need to have a day, in every week, in which to rest and we are in a Christian nation?

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

 The Chair has been listening quite carefully to what has been said, so far, and the conclusion is yet to come. However, up to this point, the hon. Deputy Minister started his debate with talking about entrepreneurship and now he is giving advice on planning our time and how we should utilise it or how we can fail to utilise it. This is what the Chair has heard this far. We hope the hon. Deputy Minister will conclude in the same manner and, therefore, that is commercial information.

Will the hon. Deputy Minister continue, please?

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, I was saying that if you rest for eight hours per day, which is recommended by doctors, for seventy years, you will spend twenty-three years sleeping.

Laughter

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, when you add twenty-three years of the seventy years sleeping, twenty years resting on Saturdays and Sundays, that is forty-three years resting.

This means that you are left with twenty-seven years in which to do some activity on earth. Now, when you join my colleague from Kwacha for a drink every evening, …

Laughter

Dr Puma: … then, even the twenty-seven years will be reduced to twenty years.

Laughter

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, the point I am trying to say is that we cannot …

Mr L. J. Mulenga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I normally do not want to raise points of order.

Laughter

Mr L. J. Mulenga: I would just like to ask, in the spirit of kulibe, kulibe, twakana, twakana, whether this hon. Minister is in order to mention my name when he is forgetting his friend who also spends the same time and that is why he does not know any  other …

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The point of order concerns the hon. Member drawing another Member into his debate. Our rules state that you do not draw each other, personally, into your debate because then the other person may defend himself/herself. In this matter, the hon. Deputy Minister is out of order.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Dr Musonda: Hammer!

Dr Puma: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

In summary of this analysis, we need to analyse how we spend our seventy years on earth. Otherwise, we might find that we are spending less than twenty-five years, out of the seventy years, doing some economic activity. This explains why most people have lived seventy years on earth and the plans have remained in the head because most of the time, they have been sleeping and resting. So, let us reduce on the time of sleeping and resting if possible and engage in economic activity in our life so that we develop our lives.

Madam Speaker, for an entrepreneur, market access is very important and the more Zambians we have, the bigger the market we have. At the Patents and Company Registration Agency Office there are many queues of people registering companies everyday, but out there in the communities, there are no companies being formed. What this means is that our people have the ideas which they do not seem to translate on the ground. So, we need to assist them where possible. In fact, it is said that to open a shop, it is very easy, but to keep it running, is an art. There is another saying which says that the market and Almighty God are similar …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Iwe!

Dr Puma: … because both are everywhere where there are people. Where there are people, the Almighty God is there and the market is there.

Interruptions

Dr Puma: The difference is that the Almighty God will forgive those who do not know what they are doing, ...

Mr Mukanga: Like yourself.

Dr Puma: … but the market will not forgive those who do not know what they are doing.

Laughter

Mr Munaile: Blasphemy.

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, this is very crucial and we need to be careful as we do business because the market will not forgive us if we make mistakes.

Madam Speaker, I would like to talk briefly about the interesting situation of politics. I recall when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was giving the speech that it was amazing and interesting to find that some people made comments that this was the last budget he was presenting.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, I had an opportunity to look at the booklet which you gave us during the Official Opening of Parliament by the President. It clearly stated how the current situation is. MMD – 72 …

Mr Hamududu: Is this budget.

Dr Puma: … with full candidates and Parliamentarians. PF – 42, UPND – 24. And that document was very clear. Now, you will find that even my colleague …

Hon. Member: And the others?

Dr Puma: The others have, each.

Laughter
 
Dr Puma: This is according to that booklet which Madam Speaker gave us at no cost.

Laughter

Dr Puma: Now, it makes me a little concerned and I find it very interesting to note that people with only twenty-four Members are the ones who are saying next year, we shall be there and take over Government. How?

Laughter

Dr Puma: What mathematics are we using? People with forty-two Members, thirty Members less than us are saying we shall be there next year? How?

Laughter

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, from the inroads that we have made, so far, from my assessment, come next year, we shall get more than ninety seats.

Mr Lubinda: Iwe, siuzabwela.

Dr Puma: We have made serious inroads.

Mr Lubinda: Ask ba V. J. Siuzabwela, iwe.

Laughter

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, coming back to the Budget Address on Page 23, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning proposed to increase the threshold at which an individual requires the use of a clearing agent for customs clearance purposes, from $500 to $2,000. This is very commendable, particularly that the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry has introduced a simplified trade regime where our cross-border traders are enjoying this facility.

Recently, when I was in Livingstone to launch this regime between Zambia and Zimbabwe, it was interesting to note that our people now are exporting simple goods such as goats and groundnuts. This Government does not make them pay taxes on those goods. I am sure they are quite happy and that is why all these are ours.

Laughter

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, so with the increase to US$2,000, what it means is that those who have been able to sell goods worth US$500, with very minimal taxes, are now able to increase to US$2,000 and be able to clear the goods themselves. With this incentive, we can see a lot of our people becoming traders.

Madam Speaker, finally, I would like to say that the Government has made the business environment very conducive by making sure that the country is very peaceful and stable. We have also shortened the registration period for business. The macro and micro economic stability is there and, of course, the Government has mentioned that it will not be in the habit of doing business. In other words, the Government has made the situation conducive for us. We need not continue to complain that there is so much water and so many minerals. What are you doing about it yourself? The Government has said if you are able to go into mining go ahead, but you have continued to complain that there are many minerals. Who are you complaining to because you are the one who is supposed to exploit them?

Interruptions

Dr Puma: Find partners and go into these ventures. You must wake up and realise your potential.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing to me to contribute to the  very interesting debate on the Floor of the House regarding the Budget Speech by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, in starting my debate, I wish to say to say that I adopt the debate of Hon. Hamududu as my own …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: … because a lot of the things he said are 100 per cent correct.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Madam Speaker, in leading the nation, my colleagues on the left like parroting phrases.

Mr Lubinda: On the right.

Mr Simuusa: Well, they are on my left, nonetheless, on Madam Speaker’s right. They like parroting phrases which are supposed to be meaningful, but are meaningless because they only want to paint a picture which appears to be rosy but is not. One of the phrases is that they are a listening Government.

I remember that last year when I started my debate on the Budget speech, I pointed out that this is a national document and, as such, it should bear a national character. I went on to mention that we should be sensitive when we producing these documents.

Madam Speaker, last year, this Government was boasting about foreign investment and showed a picture of a Chinese national dancing with some traditional dancers on the front page of the Budget Speech. I stood on the Floor of this House and said that we should be sensitive about such things because this is a National Budget and we have lot of other investors apart from the Chinese. As much as we give the Chinese all the support, we need to be considerate of such implications.

Madam Speaker, is this a listening Government? The answer is no because this year on the front page of the Budget, and my colleague Dr Katema also mentioned this, there is this child (holding the Budget in her hand). I do not know how many sweets and chocolates were given to this child to show what I call a Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) symbol. This is not a manipulation of graphics. This is subtle and intentional by the Government. Let us be sensitive as a nation. We are all Zambians and this is a multi-party State and we should not, therefore, put an MMD symbol on the national Budget. Otherwise, let us also have Patriotic Front (PF) and United Party for National Development (UPND) symbols there as well.

Hon. Government Members: But who is ruling?

Mr Simuusa: Madam Speaker, that is the mistake our colleagues are making. They say, “Who is ruling?” This is a National Budget for all Zambians.

Interruptions

Mr Simuusa: The mistake of our colleagues is that they make the Budget for the MMD. Where the MMD is popular is where resources are going. I have stood on the Floor of this House …

Mr Munaile: Bwekeshapo apo!

Mr Simuusa: … and said that the way the national cake is distributed is not equitable. Even last year, we mentioned that the Government was using the Budget to appease or reward areas where the MMD has support. Hon. Members who spoke before me said that there are construction projects taking place in various areas. I took note of the names that were mentioned such as Masaiti, Mpongwe, Mulobezi, Lufwanyama and so on and so forth.

Dr Puma: Kamfinsa.

Mr Simuusa: What about Chingola?

Madam Speaker, what we are saying is that a bigger piece of the national cake is going to MMD controlled areas. Hon. Members on your right even agreed on the Floor of this House that they are using the National Budget to reward areas that voted for the MMD. That is a wrong approach and, again, I bemoan this attitude which must change forthwith. I challenge this Government to prove me wrong by taking development to Opposition held areas.

Mr Lubinda: To Kabwata.

Mr Simuusa: Madam Speaker, I noticed that on page 18 of the Budget, at least Chingola is mentioned regarding road works. However, to date, these road works have not started. I am, again, challenging the Government to prove me wrong by ensuring that these road works start in Chingola. It is good for the Government to allocate resources towards road works in Chingola. However, what about the rest of the Copperbelt because Chingola is the only town on this list?

Madam Speaker, roads and other infrastructure on the Copperbelt are dilapidated. The province does not look like that is where the wealth of this nation is generated from. This should not be the case and, again, I challenge the Government to prove me wrong by doing something about this. In Chingola we are waiting anxiously for the contractor called the Red Lion, as has been mentioned, to start the work. Like I said, then I would be proved wrong and I will stand up and say that on one score, the Government has showed that the budget is not just for the MMD but for the whole country, including those who belong to the PF and UPND.

Madam Speaker, road works are not meant to please the MMD only. Roads in this country are not only used by the Ruling Party members but every citizen. So, the saying that this is an MMD Budget is a misconception which must be corrected by my colleagues on your right.

Madam Speaker, I want to very quickly point out some key issues in the budget. I must say I am presently disappointed with this Budget and I will dwell on an aspect that I normally talk about withy regard to mining. Both the President and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning mentioned the same point in their addresses that mining is the mainstay or driving engine of this economy. Whether we are diversifying or not, the fact still remains that mining is the mainstay of this economy. However, in the budget, only one and half paragraphs have been dedicated to mining. It is not even given a heading or subsection. This shows that we are not serious and this is the parroting I talk about. We just parrot phrases, and yet we are not serious when it comes to implementation.

Madam Speaker, the only paragraph where the hon. Minister referred to mining was on page 3, paragraph 19, and he said:

“Mr Speaker, I am pleased to report that copper production in 2010 will exceed 720,000 metric tonnes, a level of production that was last seen in 1973. This places us within reach of our medium-term target of one million metric tonnes per annum.”

Madam Speaker, I want to say that this Government should stop embarrassing us as a nation. The hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning and Mines and Minerals Development and the President should stop embarrassing me as a Zambian. I did say that let us not boast about production which is not ours. Why are we boasting that we are going to reach levels of 1973 copper production when it is not our production? This is very embarrassing. It is like that proverbial saying of the mouse riding on an elephant, and I think hon. Members are well familiar with it. They cross a bridge and it shakes. However, the one who is boasting is the mouse that they shook the bridge. That is what we are doing as a nation.

Laughter

Mr Simuusa: We are like that mouse that claimed to have shaken the bridge.

Mr Lubinda: Like Mulongoti.

Mr Simuusa: That is what we are doing and it is very embarrassing. Let us talk about production that is ours and not boasting over production that is for others. The Chinese and Indians can boast about this because it is their production and money. We are not getting any benefit from this production.

Madam Speaker, that notwithstanding, if we are going to talk about production going back to the levels in 1973, then we should compare it with all other parameters.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Simuusa: In 1973, employment in this country was at its best and I want to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for doing his research …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member debating in order not to mention that on behalf of the Zambian people, the Government has shares in mines through the company that is established on the Copperbelt?

Hon. Opposition Members: Which company?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: The Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines- Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH). Is he in order to mislead the nation? I need your serious ruling.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services is concerned with the information that the hon. Member on the Floor is giving and his concern is more of what the hon. Member is leaving out. The guidance is that when the hon. Minister has an opportunity, he will also bring out the information which he is aware of. For now, the hon. Member on the Floor may not have that as part of his debate. So, when the time comes, issues must be clarified.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Simuusa: Madam Speaker, with your permission, later in my speech, I will respond to that point of order regarding ZCCM-IH. I was saying that if we are going to claim glory that our production is going to go back to the way it was in 1973, let us also compare with other parameters because we cannot just say production is increasing. What was the employment rate in 1973 when our production was at that level? What was the status of our infrastructure? During that time, the unemployment and poverty levels were very low. The Poverty levels were not at 80 per cent. In 1973, our roads were spick and span. Our infrastructure was good. In fact, I commend the hon. Minister of Finance for having done his research before he delivered his speech because he also said that this country was doing fine in 1973. That is true. However, this country started going downwards economically in the years that followed. If we want to genuinely compare where we are today in terms of development with where we were in  the 1970s, we need to look at all the parameters of the country’s development and not just celebrating production outputs that are not ours.

Madam Speaker, we must also look at the issue of street children. In 1973, we did not have street children, beggars and a high poverty level. Let us be genuine and not paint a picture which is not real. To have a better picture of where we are in terms of development, let us compare ourselves with other countries. A good benchmarking exercise can give you a real picture of where we are today in terms of development. One of the countries we can compare our country with is Chile because it is similar to Zambia.

Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister correctly pointed out in his speech, at independence, our per capita income was slightly over US$1,500. In 1973, Zambia’s per capita income was US$507 and our country was ranked No. 69 out of 130 countries. Chile’s GDP was US$1,624 in 1973 which was similar to what we had at independence. Chile was No. 49 at that time. In 2006, Zambia’s per capita income dropped to US$919 and the country was ranked at No. 123 out of 171 countries. Chile, in the same year, had a per capita income of US$8,800 and was ranked at No. 39.

In 2010, Zambia’s per capita income is at US$1,400 and ranked No. 193 and Chile’s per capita income is at US$14,000 and that country is ranked No. 77. Despite the figure being close to the one we had at independence, Zambia is now in the bottom twenty in terms of the world rankings. Let me also point out at this point that I was impressed with Hon. Hamududu’s analysis regarding the country’s per capita income. Why boast about the per capita income when the income being earned by most of the sectors in this country is not ours? The country dropped from No. 69 in 1973 to No. 193 in 2010. We are not even in the range of the middle-income countries. Does it make sense for us to say things are going back to where they were in 1973 when we are in the bottom twenty? Our ranking has kept dropping when those of others are improving. It is shame on us as a nation. Therefore, I appeal to the Government to be serious when it comes to such issues. Let us be factual and realistic when looking at matters regarding the development of our country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Madam Speaker, facts should be presented to us so that we can have the real picture. This can help us to face reality.

Madam Speaker, let us not paint pictures of a situation which is not there on the ground. Let us not celebrate production outputs which are not ours.

Madam Speaker, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

______________

The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 15th October, 2010.