DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 4th November, 2010

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

SESSIONAL COMMITTEES - MEMBERSHIP

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order 131, the following members have been appointed to serve on the following Sessional Committees:

1.  Mr G. Mung’omba, MP, to serve on the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply;

2.  Captain C. Moono, MP, to serve on the Committee on Education, Science and Technology; and

3. Mr K. Kakusa, MP, to serve on the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare.

Thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CITY STATUS

145. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when Mongu District would be given city status;

(b) what the minimum qualifications for conferring city status on a municipal town were; and

(c) whether any provincial centres outside the line of rail qualified and, if so, which ones.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Muteteka): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the establishment of councils is governed by the provisions of the Local Government Act, Cap. 281, of the Laws of Zambia. The aforesaid Act provides that for purposes of local government administration, the Minister of Local Government and Housing may, by statutory order, establish for any district, a city council, municipal council or district council.

However, Sir, my ministry cannot give a definite time when Mongu will be declared a city, as it has to go through all the necessary processes. In this regard, therefore, Mongu Municipal Council must present to the hon. Minister its intent to be declared a city upon which the hon. Minister will determine its viability and make recommendations to the President.

Mr Speaker, the Act further provides that the powers to confer city status on any established municipality is vested in the President of the Republic of Zambia. The President may, by statutory proclamation, confer on any municipal council established, therefore, the status of a city and shall determine the name by which such a city shall be known.

Mr Speaker, the factors that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing considers before upgrading a particular council include:

(a) the development potential;

(b) economic viability to carry the status;

(c) level of infrastructure development; and

(d) size – population area.

Mr Speaker, in view of this scenario, my ministry is currently developing the minimum administrative standards to be the guiding factors when considering the upgrading or downgrading of councils in the form of a matrix.

Mr Speaker, there are a number of provincial centres that may or may not be upgraded to city status and these include Chipata, Mongu and Solwezi. They will, therefore, be considered once the standards are finalised.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Imenda: Mr Speaker, are the local authorities aware of what is required of them, considering that Mongu meets the economic status and population requirement?

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, indeed, the local authorities throughout the country are supposed to be aware of these provisions. If Mongu is ignorant of these facts, we can fax or send them through the hon. Member of Parliament to the council where he belongs.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central) : Mr Speaker, what benefits accrue to a town when it becomes a city?

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, the benefits are that the municipal area will be upgraded compared to the current status. When it is upgraded, there are a lot of benefits in the sense that even the revenue base will be improved and there are a number of other factors such as infrastructure that will benefit the people of that locality.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is in charge of the overall planning for all towns in the country, when does the hon. Minister think Mongu will meet the qualifications which he has clearly explained in question (b) so that it can achieve this status, according to his plans?

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, I think we have been very explicit in our answer that, in fact, the onus is on Mongu Municipal Council to indicate its preparedness for such a status.

I thank you, Sir.

HIGH SCHOOLS COUNTRYWIDE

146. Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) how many high schools were there countrywide; and

(b) of the high schools, how many were grant aided.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, there are 180 government-run high schools. The schools offer Grades 10 to 12 classes. There are seventy-five grant-aided schools which are mainly administered by churches and are still running as secondary schools offering Grades 8 to 12 classes.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether, when allocating funds to schools, the size of the province and population are considered.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, as the hon. Member may be aware since she worked for the Ministry of Education for a long time, we give money directly to high schools from the ministry headquarters. Therefore, the money is given according to the number of high schools that are in a province.

Secondly, money is given according to the grade of a high school. The majority of high schools are grade one, two or three.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi):  Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the distribution of the 180 high schools is province by province.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, at the moment, I do not have that information, but I can come up with it at a later date. What I know is that apart from the 180 high schools that I have mentioned, all in all, as a Government, we have 388 secondary and high schools. When we say high schools, we are talking about schools that offer Grade 10 to 12 classes and when we talk about secondary schools, we talk about schools that include Grades 8 to 12. If the hon. Member can give us time, we can come up with the distribution of high schools province by province.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister explain to us whether there is any equity when giving grants to Government and mission high schools.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, probably, I should give guidance. When we say grant-aided schools, we are referring to schools that are run by churches, but the Government gives teaching and learning materials to these schools as well as some grants to enable them run. Government schools are those that are wholly run by the Government. Like I have already indicated, schools are given money according to size, which is the grade of the school.  Grant-aided schools that are grade one are given a little more than those that are grade two or three.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, seventy-five grant-aided schools is a very high figure. It is almost half of the number of Government-run schools. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what other incentives, apart from the grants, are given to non-governmental institutions or churches that are running these schools for the job that they are doing so well and helping you as a Government.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to correct the impression given by the hon. Member for Nchanga that grant-aided schools are just half of the schools that are owned by the Government. The Government owns 388 secondary and high schools. That is the first thing that I would like the hon. Member to know. Secondly, I have already stated that apart from the grant that is in monetary form, we give learning and teaching materials and also provide teachers. The teachers in grant-aided schools are on the Government payroll.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I would like to find from the hon. Minister what the policy of this Government with regard to higher education is. Is it to run high schools or secondary schools? Further, what is the advantage of running high schools as opposed to secondary schools?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, the policy of this Government is that, if it were possible, by 2015, all primary schools are supposed to be basic schools. When they become basic schools, which are from Grade 1 to 9, pupils who are in Grade 9 must proceed to Grade 10. Therefore, the Government has thought it wise that a good number of schools must be turned into high schools so that basic schools can feed into them. In some areas where we may not have enough basic schools that have Grades 8 and 9 classes, the Government has decided that some schools must still continue with Grade 8 to 12 to cater for pupils in the local community. That is the reason we have high and secondary schools. At the moment, both are still useful, but we are looking forward to a time when we will phase out Grade 8 and 9 from some schools so that they only remain in certain schools.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker,

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, out of the 180 high schools, how many are boarding school.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I may not have the statistics at the moment, but I can bring the information a little later if the hon. member would like to have it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

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BILLS

REPORT STAGE

The Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering (Amendment) Bill, 2010

The Financial Intelligence Centre Bill, 2010

The Anti-Corruption Bill, 2010

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Speaker: What does that mean?

Laughter

Report adopted.

Third Readings on Friday, 5th November, 2010.

________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

VOTE 09 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – K2,742,385,421).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended yesterday, I was saying that if the Teaching Service Commission has to produce good results, it must be funded reasonably. I also gave examples of other commissions that received more funding than the Teaching Service Commission.

Hon. Members are aware of the functions of individual commissions, and therefore, are not saying that all the commissions should be given equal allocations. However, the allocations must be given according to the activities that are supposed to be undertaken by the commissions.

Sir, I also said that this Government has now become a biased institution which favours some institutions.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Sir, the other day, when we were debating the Vote on the Ministry of Home Affairs, one hon. Member raised an issue to the effect that the Zambia Police does not look after its vehicles properly. For argument’s sake, if you compare the budget allocation for the Zambia Security Intelligence Service (ZSIS) which is about K281 billion …

Mr Kambwili: VJ!

Mr Ntundu: … and the allocation given to the Zambia Police, one would wonder which institution between the two has more work. The Zambia Police are given Nissan vehicles, and yet they are on the road doing their work twenty-four hours non-stop.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Teaching Service Commission!

Mr Ntundu: I am giving you an example.

Mr M. B. Mwale indicated dissent.

Mr Ntundu: I have always told you that the reason you keep shaking your head is that you cannot think beyond your current level.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Ntundu: You cannot think more than that.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May the hon. Member debate what is on the Floor and ignore the hecklers. What he is doing is not helping matters at all.

You may continue, please.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, the police are given Nissan vehicles whilst the Zambia Security Intelligence Service is given land cruisers. It is unfair for someone to stand up and say the police are misusing vehicles, and yet they are not serviced.

Sir, for example, if you bought a car today and you do not service it or you have no time to take it to the garage, it would not last long.

Mr Chairperson, we, from the left side of the House, have always said that we do not hate anyone from the right. In fact, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government is very lucky because we have been giving them ideas on how to run some of these institutions for free. If this Government was able to accept our advice, it should have been doing better by now

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: It is not a joke when we, in the Opposition, say that when we take over government, we shall seriously look into what is supposed to be done for these institutions.

Hon. Member: What about the money?

Mr Ntundu: It is not an issue of not having enough money because we have the money. We are not a poor country as you like putting it. We have the resources, but we do not put our priorities right.

Mr Malama: No!

Mr Ntundu: Sir, some time back, someone asked me where the money was going to come from for us to do the things we promise the people and I told this person that when we come into power, we shall save the money by avoiding certain costs. The money that you misuse and give those hooligans during by-elections is the money we shall give to the commissions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: The money is there!

Mr Chazangwe: Hammer!

Mr Malwa: On a point of order!

Mr Munaile: Aah!

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, arising from the concerns that were raised by the hon. Members from this side of the House whilst debating the 2011 Budget, I did not expect to see only K2,742,385,421 as the allocation for the Teaching Service Commission.

If you look at the report that was presented to this House two years ago, you will find that the Teaching Service Commission could not function properly due to lack of funds. For example, how many sittings were conducted to look at cases from districts? Ask the people at the commission how many sittings they had.

Sir, I am urging this Government to do what is right.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: We do not hate the MMD Government and we have supported it very much. In fact it is high time the people in Government commended us for having supported them very much.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: However, when we criticise them, they think that we hate them when, in fact, we do not. Mr Vice-President, you are a very good friend of mine, please …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May Hon. Ntundu, please stick to his debate. His Honour the Vice-President is quietly listening. Do not draw him into a conversation.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Please, debate what is on the Floor of the House.

Mr Ntundu: Thank you, Sir, for your guidance.

Lastly, Mr Chairperson, through you, when His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice comes to wind up debate on this Vote, I would like him to respond to some questions. What is the Government’s plan for the commission and what does it hope to achieve through it?

If you may recall, in the previous year, His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice promised, through this House – and I am able to fish out the verbatim report through you, Mr Chairperson, that his Government would make changes to this commission to ensure that it produces good results. When His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice comes to wind up debate, he should put on the Table the changes that this Government will make and how it hopes this commission will meet its obligations.

Sir, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, under this commission, there are professionals who are failing to tick because of insufficient funds. When His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice stood to highlight the functions of the commission, he talked about the transfer of teachers. This is a good function of the commission, but is not implemented because of lack of funds. I doubt if we have an allocation for this function in the Yellow Book. It takes such a long time to transfer a teacher that some have even become headmen or headwomen in their localities. They have even forgotten that they are supposed to be transferred.

Mr Chairperson, when you go to some rural schools, you will find that some teachers are the first to go beer drinking. I can simply say that things are not alright in this country and we must be serious about what we are doing. Yesterday, I was baffled when one of us said teachers are supposed to support the Government of the day. Surely, to me, that was a joke and I expected the hon. Member to further explain how teachers are supposed to support the Government of the day. Are they supposed to leave the board and chalk to go and campaign for the Government of the day?

Interruptions

Mr Malama: What did this hon. Member ‘meant’…

Laughter

Mr Malama: … when she said teachers are supposed to support the Government of the day? The hon. Member needed to explain or qualify what she meant. I want to state here that we all know that teachers are civil servants who are not supposed to participate in active politics, just in case she meant that. Teachers are just supposed to continue with their work of teaching. That is how they are supposed to support the Government of the day.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: Mr Chairperson, teachers are not supporting the Government of the day because they are frustrated in their efforts to produce quality work. Surely, the root cause of this frustration is the commission. We do not need to consult witch doctors to be told how teachers are supposed to support the Government of the day because we can come up with the answer using common sense. 

The Government of the day will never have support from civil servants because they are not well remunerated. This is making them look unprofessional, and yet they are very educated and important people. Taking into account what has been allocated to the commission, I do not know if we will see  any change.

Mr Chairperson, …

Mrs Sinyangwe: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Chairperson, I need your ruling. Is this hon. Member who has never been a civil servant in order to mislead the nation by saying that teachers who are civil servants must not support the Government of the day?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!  

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The point of order is a reminder to the hon. Member now debating that drawing other people into the debate is not helpful and it deviates the flow of debate. I will expect the hon. Member debating now to deal with the issue before the House.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Malama: Mr Chairperson, how I wished the former teacher …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

If the hon. Member does not want to debate the commission, I will have to ask him to sit down, but if he has points to raise, I ask him to do so. However, he should avoid mentioning the hon. Member who raised the point of order.

Mr Malama: Mr Chairperson, I stood up to deliver a point regarding the issue of teachers …

Interruptions

Mr Malama: … who are supposed to be transferred and disciplined by the commission. We have this commission in place because of the same teachers I am talking about. You cannot separate the two. I would like to urge the commission to be in charge by controlling the teachers because there is total indiscipline amongst the teachers, especially those in the rural areas.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Malama, there is the Ministry of Education which is yet to come, but for now, deal with the commission and the responsibilities it has under the Constitution.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I can see that there are some advisors seated next to you. Please, ignore them and deal with issues to do with the commission.

Laughter

Mr Malama: Mr Chairperson, I am looking at the board that disciplines the teachers. The point I want to deliver is that there is a lot of indiscipline amongst teachers and the commission is the body which is supposed to discipline them. I am asking the Government to give the commission enough money which will make its commissioners mobile so that they can perform their duties effectively. We need to buy them vehicles like land cruisers for them to reach the remote areas. That is the point I was trying to make.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: Mr Chairperson, I cannot say that teachers should support the Government of the day when I know that they are frustrated because of what I pointed out here.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor of this House.

I believe that this is an important commission because it helps a lot in ensuring that teachers are recognised. It is important to ensure that the commission is adequately funded so that its commissioners can go round the country. We have a lot of teachers in the country who have been serving for many years without being confirmed. I believe that when the commission does its job adequately, some of the issues being discussed here will be resolved.

However, we have observed that the kind of funding the commission gets is extremely limited and this makes it very difficult for it to carry out its job. This commission is meant to assist the Ministry of Education see to it that the administration does not just deal with disciplinary cases, but also promotions, transfers and even reducing on what are known as posthumous promotions. Surely, how can a person be motivated when they are promoted after he/she is dead or confirmed after leaving the job?

Mr Chairperson, we want teachers to be recognised. Further, some of the problems that they meet everyday must be brought to the attention of the ministry. It is, therefore, extremely important that the Teaching Service Commission sees to it that this happens.

Mr Chairperson, it is also important to ensure that commissioners are people with a lot of experience in teaching. Really, this should not be a place where those who may, at some point, have performed very well should be placed as a reward. We need people who are committed, energetic and dedicated to work.

Mr Chairperson, there is an issue of the human immuno-deficiency virus/acquired immuno-deficiency syndrome (HIV/AIDS) in the ministry that we need to ensure is addressed. I believe that the commissioners can do a good job in helping us in this regard.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor.

This nation can only progress on the right course with the right level of investment in the education sector. Without knowledgeable citizens, we cannot develop. We are debating the Teaching Service Commission and we are aware of its responsibilities. It is not the Ministry of Education. However, we have to tie the two. While the Government is carrying out certain levels of investment in terms of infrastructure, that will amount to nothing if we do not have a motivated teaching force.

Mr Chairperson, the teaching fraternity is known as a noble profession and there is a reason for that. This is because it is what underpins the very essence of the development of a nation and succession planning, that is one generation planning for the next generation. The only way we can advance is if every successive generation is better than the one before it. The teaching fraternity is the key to ensuring that this nation progresses in that manner.

Mr Chairperson, whereas we may be constructing classroom blocks, we also have to look at the motivation of the teachers who are supposed to impart their knowledge on the children of this country, and that is where the Teaching Service Commission comes in. At the moment, the teaching fraternity has the lowest morale we have ever seen all these years. Each and every one of us in this House can remember that we had a very highly motivated teaching fraternity when we went through the set educational levels compared to now. The Teaching Service Commission must come in and raise the morale of teachers.

Mr Chairperson, it is not enough to put up infrastructure such as classroom blocks if the teachers whose responsibility is to educate our children have low morale and do not have enough teaching aids. We live in a world where, in other parts, children do their homework on computers while the state of our classrooms, especially in rural areas, leaves much to be desired.

Mr Chairperson, the low morale of teachers is also evidenced by the low salaries …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I am trying to follow the hon. Member’s debate and I can see that he is really trying to bring the issue of teachers into the Teaching Service Commission. The hon. Member has seriously tried to tie the two. At this moment, it is the commission that falls under the Office of the President that we are discussing. I know that it is difficult to draw a line, but it must be drawn. Otherwise, we shall debate the Ministry of Education before we get to the Vote.

I know the hon. Member has tried to move right on the tight rope, but may he swerve towards the commission rather than towards education.

May be hon. Member continue.

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, I am trying to emphasise the need for those who are charged with the responsibility of raising the morale of the teachers. It is the commission that is responsible for promotions, transfers, ….

Mr Shakafuswa: And conditions of service.

Mr Milupi: … conditions of service and all the matters that have an impact on the morale of the teachers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: It is the morale of teachers that I want to focus on. We need to have a system that increases that morale for our children to have the right level of education.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, now that you have mentioned it, the budget for the Teaching Service Commission, this year, has gone up from K2.5 billion to K2.7 billion. That shows the level of support that the commission is getting from the Government. Just for reference’s sake, the overall Budget of this nation has gone up by 23 per cent and the State House Budget has gone up by 30 per cent. This K200 million increase in the Teaching Service Commission is 8 per cent. That means that in terms of the level of priorities, this Government rates the commission very lowly. It is the least of its priorities and this is sad.

Mr Chairperson, in an effort to raise the morale of teachers, here are some of the few areas that I think for Teaching Service Commission should focus on. The first one is what is happening with regards to the conditions of service and interference in the allowances of the teaching fraternity. Those of us who are Members of Parliament of constituencies in rural areas are aware of the complaints of teachers at the moment. The complaints are centred on the housing, remote and rural hardship allowances. Today, they are given these allowances and are not given the other day. This tends to demoralise the teachers and it is the responsibility of the Teaching Service Commission to ensure that the allowances, once agreed upon, are paid on time.

Mr Chairperson, in talking about remote areas, let me say that rural areas which are very far from administrative areas such as Liuwa – and I can see the hon. Member for the area, there is a school called Siluwe, where a teacher has to take five to seven days to travel to Mongu and …

Mr Chilembo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to continue debating the Ministry of Education when you have already guided that we are dealing with the Teaching Service Commission? Is he in order to confuse us?

Hon. Opposition Members: You are confusing yourself.

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, that point of order serves to emphasise the point that there is a distinction between the Ministry of Education and the Teaching Service Commission. I will give the hon. Member a chance to continue debating to see whether he will stick to the Teaching Service Commission.

Therefore, he can continue, bearing that in mind.

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, I am talking about conditions of service which are the responsibility of the Teaching Service Commission …

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Milupi: … that should ensure that the conditions of service for teachers are of an appropriate standard. If someone cannot understand that, I wonder how they got their qualifications to be called learned.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi:  Mr Chairperson …

Mr Chilembo: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Milupi: … in terms of the conditions …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Milupi: … and morality …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Deputy Minister knows that he cannot raise two points of order during the debate of any given hon. Member. However, the hon. Member who is debating now …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

… will avoid drawing the hon. Deputy Minister, who is sitting quietly after raising a point of order and listening to him, into his debate. So, please, stick to the matter under discussion and avoid drawing the hon. Deputy Minister into your debate.

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, I am much obliged for your guidance, but I think people should have respect for elders.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member will withdraw that phrase and continue debating.

Mr Milupi: I withdraw the word ‘elders’ and replace it with ‘presidents’.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, in order to keep the morale of teachers high, the Teaching Service Commission should focus on one issue that affects many married teachers. All too often, we have had teachers who are married either to fellow teachers or people in other professions being separated because of deployment to other areas. I think this is quite inhuman. I am sure that if the commission officials applied their minds to this matter, they could find quick solutions to ensuring that those in marriage are separated only for the shortest possible time.

Mr Chairperson, if someone is away from his/her spouse, he/ she will not concentrate on the job and this affects the quality of teaching that he/she provides to the pupils. I want to urge the Teaching Service Commission to also expedite the process of appointments in order to motivate those who are appointed. Promotions boost the morale of teachers.

As regards transfers, we have seen, in recent times, the specter of politically-motivated transfers, especially during by-elections. Those who are perceived not to have supported the so-called Government of the day are always victimised after elections. Let me take this opportunity to point out that there is a difference between the Government of the day which, by the way includes us here in the Opposition as hon. Members of Parliament, being a part of the arms of the Government, and the Ruling Party. When hon. Members on your right refer to civil servants supporting the Government of the day, they are not really referring to the support that should be given to the Government. They are implying that the Ruling Party must be supported by civil servants. That is totally different and should not be accepted in a democracy.

Now, going back to this specter of politically-motivated transfers, I have seen situations whereby, after a by-election, an arbitrary decision is made by those in provincial and district centres to transfer teachers that they think did not favour them. I think this is totally wrong. The Teaching Service Commission must intervene and ensure that nobody is victimised. In most cases, teachers are victimised for the wrong reasons because they may not even have supported the Opposition.

Mr Chairperson, in any case, you and I remember the time when we were children and used to fight in the playground. It was wrong, after being beaten by an age mate, to revenge by beating up that age mate’s younger brother or sister. So, if someone has clobbered you in a by-election, it is wrong to seek retribution on civil servants that you perceive to have supported that person.

Mr Chairperson, with those remarks, I say thank you very much.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (MR Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I just want to thank the hon. Members for supporting this Vote. A number of issues have been raised, especially on the efficiency of the commission. We have taken note of some constructive suggestions on how to improve on this. However, some hon. Members raised issues which are not relevant to the commission and, therefore, I will not comment on that.

I thank you.

VOTE 09/01 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – Headquarters – K2,742,385,421).

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, I seek clarification on Programme 8 – Staff Welfare – K59,000,000. Can I find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice what necessitated the decrease in the allocation to staff welfare from K91,453,063 to only K59,900,000 when this programme includes Activity 01 – HIV/AIDS Prevention (World Aids Day) – K4,950,000, Activity 02 – Gender Mainstreaming – K4,950,000 and  Activity 03 – Staff Loans – K50,000,000.

Sir, with your permission, may I have further clarification on Programme 9, Activity 01 – Provincial Tours – K156,440,000 and Activity 02 – Provincial Tours (Southern) –K153,740,000. Could I find out why His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice has found it expedient to have all the eight provinces covered under one provincial tours’ allocation of K156 million while the Southern Province has been given its own allocation. What is the rationale behind this? If he wants to split the allocations for every province, why does he not do that for each one of them and not just for the Southern Province? Furthermore, he has actually caused a decrease in the total allocation for provincial tours for the commission whose job, as we have heard, is to go out and inspect the performance of teachers.

The Deputy Chairperson: You have made your point.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, regarding staff welfare, the breakdown shows that the allocation for staff loans has increased. The increase in the provision is to cater for more applicants.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice flipped through his notes.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members can you stop making running commentaries.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, this is the money available for undertaking these activities. We have taken into account the estimated costs of these activities and have, as a result, provided this allocation. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, clearly, His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice has not given answers to my two questions. Just for his sake, because I saw him looking through his notes very quickly, let me just repeat my question. What is the reason for the decrease to allocations such as HIV/AIDS Prevention (World AIDS Day), Gender Mainstreaming and Staff Loans? The second question that I raised has to do with provincial tours where there is also a decrease. What is the rationale behind allocating money to eight provinces under one Vote and one province separately?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, we will undertake two provincial tours and these are the Southern and North-Western provinces. We cannot cover all of them at the same time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This is a continuous process. We have already toured some of the provinces and this will continue until next year.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, budgeting also depends on the resources available and also estimates of the cost of undertaking that particular activity. Therefore, this is the money which we have provided, taking into account all that criteria.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, is His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice not encouraging the delay in confirming and promoting teachers in the other seven provinces that will not be visited this year because teachers are supposed to be promoted or confirmed after six months?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You have made your point.

You may continue.

Mr Kambwili: Secondly, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 03 – Fleet Management – Nil. Has the Teaching Service Commission sold off all its vehicles because there is no provision for fleet management? Last year, they were given K160 million, but there is absolutely nothing this year.

The Deputy Chairperson: Which one are you talking about?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, this is on Programme 2, Activity 03– Fleet Management – Nil.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, we did not start the provincial tours this year. Provincial tours were there even before 2010. Therefore, some of the provinces have already been covered and this is a continuous activity.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 09/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 10 – (Police and Prisons Service Commission – K2,972.944.523).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me the opportunity to present this year’s Estimates of Expenditure for the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

Hon. Members of the House may wish to be reminded that the Police and Prisons Service Commission was established under Section 7(c) of the Service Commission’s Act No. 24 of 1991. Some of the functions of the Police and Prisons Service Commission are as follows:

(i) carry out functions directed to it by His Excellency the President;

(ii) appoint persons to hold or not or act in office in the Office of the Zambia Police and Prisons Services;

(iii) admit officers to permanent and pensionable establishment in the Zambia Police Force and Prisons Service;

(iv) promote officers to higher ranks in the Police and Prisons Service;

(v) establish disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in such offices and remove any persons from exercising the functions of his/her offices in the Police and Prisons Service;

(vi) review appeals submitted by officers against punishments imposed on them departmentally or by the responsible officer as provided for under the Police and Prisons Service Commission;

(vii) decide on the requirement and normalise resignations of officers in the Zambia Police Force and Prisons Service;

(viii) consider the granting and distribution of pension benefits accruing to the deceased estate;

(ix) direct on the compensation of officers who die or get injured in accidents arising from and in the course of duty; and

(x) consider transfer of officers arising from the exigencies of the service.

Mr Chairperson, in 2010, the commission received K2,593,733,057. This enabled it visit two provinces, namely Northern and Lusaka provinces. During these visits, the commission did not just process confirmations, appointments, retirements, discipline and reinstatements, but also noted the environment and conditions under which Police and Prisons officers were serving. The House may wish to know that the commission is currently touring Lusaka Province and will conclude the tour by the end of November, 2010.

Mr Chairperson, I now appeal to hon. Members of this august House to consider approving the Estimates of Expenditure for the Police and Prisons Service Commission for 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Before the hon. Member for Chilanga begins to speak, let me alert the hon. Members that there are some microphones that are not working properly. If yours is not, please, move to the one next which is working as you start to debate.

Captain Moono (Chilanga): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Vote on the Floor.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I wish to say that, at one time, I was privileged in this House to belong to a Committee that covered the Police and Prisons Service Commission. The first issue I would like to raise to His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is the appointment of the Chairman of this Commission. Most often, the Government has been appointing former commanders or officers who were at one time in charge of the police or prisons. This has created a lot of conflict in the Police and Prisons Service Commission in terms of reporting and operating.

Mr Chairperson, I also would like to echo His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice’s sentiments on the deplorable conditions in which this commission operates as outlined. The commission is supposed to look at the environment and conditions of service for police officers.

Mr Chairperson, though we have recruited a lot of police officers, most of them are not accommodated. In my constituency, in particular, police officers are squatting in deplorable housing conditions. Police officers rent structures that are supposed to be chicken runs.

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame.

Captain Moono: This state of affairs demoralises them. There is a need for this commission to seriously look at the conditions under which police officers live. I have in mind the Paramilitary Camp which is in Lusaka West. The structures were built up to roof level during the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government, but are still incomplete.

Hon. Opposition Member: UNIP is back.

Captain Moono: I am of the view that if the Government was concerned about the welfare of police officers, the Paramilitary Camp would be completed and water and sanitation provided to improve the conditions of service of the officers.

Mr Chairperson, I urge the Government to take this matter seriously and visit the camp in order to see the incomplete structures for themselves.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to look at the conditions of the prisons in Zambia. I am particularly familiar with the conditions to which prisoners are subjected because my constituency houses the famous Mwembeshi Open-Air Prison which is a very productive prison establishment.

Mr Chairperson, during the peak of labour demand, particularly in the rainy season, there is an increase in the number of prisoners taken to the Mwembeshi Prison. However, the structures remain limited. I, therefore, urge the Government to consider the construction of accommodation for prisoners.

Sir, when you squeeze prisoners in a small space, you expose them to vices such as homosexuality and, thereby, put them at risk of contracting HIV/AIDS. Prisoners do not lie down when sleeping, but sleep in a sitting position in small rooms. This is inhumane.

Yesterday, I heard the Government complain about building more prisons and that if certain laws and regulations were kept, this would not be so. I think it is important to increase and improve the conditions in prisons before you become prisoners yourselves.

Laughter

Captain Moono: Prisons are meant for all of us.

Mr Sejani: Especially those in Cabinet.

Captain Moono: Mr Chairperson, let me comment on the delays in the disposal of disciplinary cases by the commission. Many police officers remain on suspension and receive half salaries for as long as five years. There is a need to improve the funding to the commission so that it is able to handle the disciplinary cases in time. The delays frustrate police officers and prison warders who serve this country. Sometimes, the alleged cases are not true and, therefore, it is unfair to punish someone for a long time when he/she is innocent.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy to hear from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice that the commission looks at the benefits of police officers, particularly those who die on duty. The conditions currently obtaining in the Police and Prisons Service leave much to be desired. There are officers who die on duty after serving for seventeen to eighteen years and the widow goes away with K5 million in benefits. I think we are promoting destitution in such families.

Mr Chairperson, I am of the view that if an officer dies on duty, he is supposed to be compensated and rewarded more than an officer who retires normally because the loss of life on duty is not by design. Therefore, the Government should compensate such families so that the children of the deceased officers have something to fall back on.

Mr Chairperson, currently, when one loses a husband or wife who is a police officer or a warden, he/she becomes destitute the following day. As a Government, you have the responsibility to ensure that you look after the welfare of the officers.

Mr Chairperson, I now would like to look at the promotion of police officers and wardens to higher ranks. There is a conflict of interest in the manner the promotions are done. Most often, you hear an officer is promoted on the spot by either the Commissioner of Prisons or the Inspector–General of Police without the consent of the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

This is unfair because instead of carrying out their duties professionally, most officers are busy trying to please their immediate bosses to be considered for promotion at the expense of other officers who have served for longer periods in the police or prisons.

Mr Chairperson, I would like the Police and Prisons Service Commission to look at the rotation of police officers. Some officers are highly de-motivated because certain departments, such as the Department of Traffic Control have become a preserve of a few police officers. There is no specific training for that duty when officers are recruited. Police officers are not trained to perform specific duties such as traffic control or general duties.

To reduce corruption in the Police Service, it is important to rotate traffic officers so that they can have a feel of the other departments. This will, in turn, enrich their curriculum vitae and enable them get employment elsewhere should they decide to leave the service. Currently, there are some officers who are doing traffic-related duties on a permanent basis, leaving others disgruntled and disappointed. The commission should look into this issue to boost the morale of all the police officers and prison warders.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to debate on this Vote.

Sir, I wish to briefly comment on the budget allocation for the Police and Prisons Service Commission. I am a little disappointed with the allocation of K2,972,944,523.00 billion because it is too small. This is petty cash for some people. We remember that, at one time, some people carried cash worth K2 billion in suitcases …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … here at Parliament.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: That is an amount of money equivalent to the total budget allocation for the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

Mr Muntanga: This shows lack of seriousness.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: And handbags!

Mr Muntanga: The job for the Police and Prisons Service Commission is very important, but …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … look at the conditions of service for police officers and prison wardens. The Government has allocated K120 million for touring all the police stations in this country, but this is not possible with this kind of money. The distances to Livingstone or places like where the hon. Madam Deputy Speaker comes from, …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … Kaputa, are too far for the commissioners to travel by bus.

Mr Lubinda: Kaputa!

Mr Muntanga: How is this money going to be spent, honestly? Cases of officers being paid K1,500.00 as risk allowance are still pending. Police Officers were paid K1,500.00 for risking their lives while guarding these hon. Ministers. After we complained about it, it was withdrawn. Today, police officers are not paid a risk allowance for them to protect these hon. Ministers. This is too much of a risk.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: We need to pay these officers descent wages. The Police and Prisons Service Commission should come up with proper recommendations. I wonder why they are failing to do so. I am of the opinion that the people who are on this commission are retired police officers and, therefore, should appreciate what it takes to be a police officer or prison warden.

Mr Chairperson, another issue that needs to be addressed is that of transport because prison warders cover long distances to escort prisoners to hospitals from most prisons in the country. For example, in Kalomo, prison warders cover about 8 km to get to the hospital. Why should this be so? Why should officers be treated like outcasts, and yet we need their services? Whereas junior police officers have no proper transport, …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … the guys at the top at the ministry headquarters have several vehicles, including cars which their families use to go shopping.

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Muntanga, there are no guys in the police service. Please, use the right words.

Mr Muntanga: Police officers.

Mr Chairperson: Withdraw that word.

Mr Muntanga: I withdraw the word ‘guys’ and substitute it with the word ‘officers’.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Police officers live under difficult conditions, and yet these are the people who provide security to the nation. It will not be surprising to see a number of police officers become negligent because of their poor conditions of service. It is the duty of the Police and Prisons Service Commission to provide good conditions of service for its officers.

Mr Chairperson, I am also concerned about the issue of discipline. It takes long to discipline a police officer. When there are some malpractices at a police station and the officer-in-charge would like to discipline an officer for abetting crime, he/she cannot do so because he/she has no powers. When the officer-in-charge recommends to senior officers that an officer should be punished, the senior officers just decide to transfer the officer from Kalomo to Choma or Livingstone, for instance, without disciplining him/her. They claim that it is a long process to discipline an officer. We are appealing to the Police and Prisons Service Commission to look at such cases because they are many.

Mr Chairperson, for example, there are cases of police officers being involved in cattle rustling, but they have been moved from Kalomo to Choma or Monze and the rustling has continued because they have not been punished. This commission is supposed to start working. It will be worse now because only K2 billion, which is petty cash for others, has been allocated. With this kind of money, police officers will not manage to visit all the affected areas. What are we doing about this? With corruption becoming rampant in Zambia, how do we abate it? In the process of stopping corruption, officers end up being corrupted because they are not properly paid.

Mr Chairperson, the commission recommended that officers should dress properly in uniform and there has been an improvement since.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka: In tatters.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I hope I am allowed to use words such as tatters.

Mr Chairperson, we want to see a situation where uniforms are provided for officers quite often. However, we still see some prison wardens in tattered uniforms. This is improper. It is this commission that should traverse this country and inspect and make various recommendations so that officers are given proper conditions of service. The more police stations we put up, the more this commission is required to work hard so that conditions of service for officers are improved.

With these few remarks, I support the Vote.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for affording me the opportunity to contribute to debate on this Vote. In the first place, I would like to state that I stand to support the Vote on the Floor of the House.

Mr Chairperson, before I go into detail, I would like to pay tribute to the Police and Prisons Service Commission for the simple reason that, last year, when the commission visited Luwingu District, a reasonable number of police officers from Chilubi District were promoted. Indeed, this is commendable.

I say so because the officers had worked for over six years without being promoted. Therefore, the kind of spirit which the Police and Prison’s Service Commission exhibited should be kept burning.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to raise a concern that relates to marginalisation. Each time the commission goes to the Northern Province, it never reaches Chilubi District. Since I became Member of Parliament for that area in 2006, the commission has been to the Northern Province twice, but has never bothered to visit Chilubi District. This is totally wrong. As far as we are concerned, Chilubi is neither a sub-district of Kasama nor Luwingu. Chilubi is an old district which was established in 1979. Therefore, when the Police and Prisons Service Commission go to the Northern Province, the commissioners are supposed to reach Chilubi.  I do not know what they fear. If they have a phobia for water, the best they can do is make arrangements with us to take them to Chilubi on the post boat which is reliable. We can easily take them there. If they continue to avoid visiting Chilubi District, the problems that police officers are facing will never come to an end. The Police and Prisons Service Commission is the only commission which can bring to an end the problems faced by police officers.

Sir, secondly, I want to mention that being a member of the Parliamentary Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, I have been disappointed with the behaviour of certain police officers out there on a number of occasions. When you go to a police station, you will find some officers drinking while on duty.  When you complain to the officer-in-charge about the behaviour of some police officers, you will be assured that the officer would be disciplined, but nothing is done about it. The point I am trying to make is that the Police and Prisons Service Commission should ensure that there is total discipline in the Police Service. If police officers fail to behave as expected of them, it will be very difficult for an ordinary citizen such as my grandfather in the village or a civilian like me to abide by the laws of this nation.

Mr Chairperson, let me now come to the issue of positions in the Police Service. There is a limited number of positions in the Police Service. As a result, there is always a fight for the position of sergeant, which is the first rank in the Police Service from that of constable. Therefore, I suggest that, next year, the Government should ensure that some more positions are created. There should be two ranks below the position of sergeant such as assistant sergeant or corporal.

Laughter

Mr Chisala: Those are just examples. I think by so doing, we are going to motivate a number of constables. We are also going to reduce the issue of fighting for positions of sergeant.

Lastly, Mr Chairperson, I want to make a humble request to the commission that it will be prudent for them to ensure that …

Mr Shakafuswa crossed the Floor.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member of Parliament for Katuba was crossing the Floor when the hon. Member was debating. Surely, the hon. Member knows the procedures of this House.

May the hon. Member for Chilubi continue.

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, I was about to say that in the Police Service, we have officers-in-charge, both in rural and urban areas who are manning the districts. Some of them are holding positions of chief inspector and assistant-superintendent. It does not auger well for a district to be manned by someone whose rank is below that of superintendent. In this regard, I suggest that with effect from next year, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the commission, should ensure that the officers manning the district are not below the position of superintendent. Chief inspectors should not be allowed to man the districts. Once we do that, it will help us motivate officers in the Police Service, particularly constables who have little hope of being promoted.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote on the Floor. The Police and Prisons Service Commission is a very important commission that plays a very important role to try and improve the working conditions and other matters affecting the police and prisons service.

Mr Chairperson, I want to mention that police officers are the lowest paid, poorly accommodated and most neglected workers in the Civil Service. When police officers retire, most of them end up becoming security guards. This is not by choice but because the Government does not make sure that the retired workers are paid on time so that they are able to invest in other ventures. Usually, benefits for retired officers take long to come out and so they continue occupying houses in police camps which, again, affects the new entrants who cannot be accommodated. Usually, police officers end up living outside the camps.

Mr Chairperson, I think it is very important that the commission ensures that upon retirement, officers are quickly given their benefits so that they can plan for their future outside the Police and Prisons Service.

Mr Chairperson, again, we have had situations of police officers becoming vulnerable to being compromised in their work because of being poorly paid. We have read about cases of officers being involved in criminal activities and some of them very serious indeed. Again, we are saying that it is because of the poor salaries they get.

Sir, lately, we have seen police officers amassing a lot of wealth which is not commensurate with their earnings. Again, we cannot blame them because police officers are working in a very difficult and tempting environment. In their efforts to make ends meet, officers end up being compromised. So, it is very important that the commission should speak to the Government on behalf of the officers so that they can be paid a living wage so that they can, in turn, take their children to better schools and buy a few items that they want to possess.

Looking at what the officers are being paid today, I do not think there is a single officer out there who can afford to buy a car from his/her salary. Despite someone having worked for twenty-five years as a police officer, he/ she can still not afford to buy a small car, and yet in the region, in South Africa and other countries, police officers are well looked after. They are taken care of very well. We are saying that the commission should ensure that officers in the Police and Prisons Service are also remunerated in such a way that they cannot be compromised.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to mention that crime has become very advanced and sophisticated. Therefore, it is also important that capacity is enhanced to make sure that officers also start benefiting from exchange programmes, starting from the rank of constable. They should be allowed to travel to foreign countries to go and learn how their fellow police offices are performing in those countries so that when they come back here, they are able to share the same ideas that have been put in practice in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Region or, indeed, the whole world. These attachments should not be for officers at a higher level who are frequently in and out of the country. Even officers at lower levels should be going on these attachments.

Mr Chairperson, we have also noticed that despite the curfew and State of Emergency not being in effect in the country, officers have continued arresting people and detaining them …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, you are now diverting from the commission. Can you debate the commission?

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for your guidance.

Sir, what I am trying to say is that our…

Business was suspended from 1615 hours to 1630 hours.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was about to say that as long as the Police and Prisons Service Commission fails to provide better remuneration to officers, the challenge of having a corrupt-free Police and Prisons Service shall always be there.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to see Police and Prisons Service officers enjoy realistic loans. Let us try, by all means, to motivate officers by giving them home ownership loans that are realistic. They should also have access to motor vehicle loans.

Mr Chairperson, I believe that if we attend to these two issues, we will be able to motivate our officers. I am aware that the Government has tried to offer such loans, but the amounts given are unrealistic. Alternatively, officers could be given an opportunity to own land because it is not easy for officers to access plots from the council or Ministry of Lands. We would like to see such a policy in place so that the hardworking police officers and prisons warders do not become destitute upon retiring from service.

I would like to concur with Hon. Muntanga’s sentiments that the K2,972,944,523 allocated to the commission is inadequate. This is because this commission has a huge task to motivate officers in the police and prisons services.

With these few words, Sir, I support the budget estimates for this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon. Members for the support.

Some hon. Members mostly talked about the conditions of service while others condemned the police officers. However, I must assure them that there are a lot of officers who are disciplined and dedicated to duty. As a Government, we have a lot of confidence in our officers.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 10/01 – (Police and Prisons Service Commission – Headquarters – K2,972,944,523).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on page 75, Programme 3 – Utilities – Nil and Programme 6 – Utilities – K47,500,000, what is the difference between these two programmes? Further, on Programme 3 – Utilities – Nil, but on Programme 6, there is a provision of K47,500,000, may I know the difference because I believe they could have been under one programme?

Sir, may I also have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K560,951,000, I would like to find out why there is a reduction from K855,231,711 to K560,951,000 when we need increased administrative oversight this year?

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Chairperson, Programme 3 – Utilities – Nil, the provision is required to pay for telephone charges. The increase in the provision is due to telephone bills accrued …

Hon. Members: There is no provision! It has moved!

Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: Sorry, Programme 3 has been moved to Programme 6.

Mr Nkhata: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, firstly, the question by Hon. Mukanga was that why are the two programmes still appearing in the budget when Programme 3 has been made a part of Programme 6.Why is this so?

May I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 02 – Logistical Support – K170,000,000, last year, this activity was allocated K37,500,000 but, this year, the allocation has increased to K170,000,000. Why such an increase?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, the increase in the allocation for logistics is meant for the purchase of motor vehicles and furniture. The issue of moving money from one head to another is just a budgeting technicality which is normal.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We have done it with several heads.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Why? Why?

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, I wish to follow-up a question raised by my colleague on Programme 2, Activity 02 – Logistical Support – K170,000,000 to which His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice has offered an explanation that the increase is as a result of the need to purchase vehicles. Can he explain how many vehicles are to be bought by the Police and Prisons Service Commission using K170,000,000. Are these second hand vehicles to be bought on the internet?

Secondly, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Processing of Cases from Ministry of Home Affairs – K9,498,000, I would like to find out what this activity actually entails, given that the amount of money allocated to it is a paltry K9,498,000. What activity is this? Should it not have been allocated more money?

The Deputy Chairperson: You have made your point.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to cater for the procurement of stationery and printing of action sheets in provinces.

Interruptions

Hon. Members: Microphone!

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President, obviously, intends to speak to us. However, is he in order to be speaking to the papers he is holding in his hands and not through the microphone so that we hear the answers to the questions we have asked?

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister who was speaking, could clearly be heard by the Chair. I do not know whether Hon. Lubinda was listening or not.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I did not hear what he was saying.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Deputy Minister, please, continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to cater for procurement of stationery and printing action sheets in provinces. The increase in the provision is due to an increase in the provincial tours to be undertaken.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubika: Baadala!

Vote 10/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K25,727,996,933).

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Chairperson, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr V. Mwale: Boma!

Mr M. B. Mwale: … I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver the policy statement on the estimates of expenditure for my ministry for the 2011 fiscal year.

Sir, allow me to begin by thanking the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for presenting a development-oriented National Budget which focuses on key economic sectors of agriculture, tourism, energy, education, health and infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, as I have stated before in this House, the mission statement for my ministry is, “To facilitate the development of the efficient, safe, viable and sustainable mineral and petroleum resource industries for the maximum benefit to the people of Zambia.”

My ministry is responsible for managing the mineral resources of the country, monitoring the operations of the mining industry and seismic activities to facilitate appropriate interventions.

Let me now give the highlights of the performance of the mining sector in 2010. I wish to report that there was a marked improvement in the performance of the mining sector during the aforesaid period. As I have recently stated in this House, this is evident in the increase in mineral production and the resumption of production at mines that had suspended production following the global financial crisis.

Mr Chairperson, the House may wish to know, at the end of June, 2010, copper production at 308,110 tonnes had increased by 4.4 per cent from 295,151 tonnes in 2009 during the same period.

It is projected to reach a high of 740,000 tonnes compared to 667,173 tonnes in 2009. Nickel production resumed and the country recorded a total of 14,434 tonnes of concentrates from the Munali Nickel Mine.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry continued with mine inspection programmes to ensure compliance with mining and explosives regulations. The House may wish to know that the sector has recorded a decline in fatal accidents in 2010 compared to 2009. Ten fatal accidents were recorded by September, 2010 compared to thirteen during the same period in 2009. The decline in the number of fatal accidents is attributed to increased inspections by my ministry and enhanced safety awareness programmes by the mining companies.

My ministry is concerned about the impact of mining on the environment. To ensure that resources are available for rehabilitating the environment after mine closure, implementation of the Environmental Protection Fund (EPF) continued in 2010. As at August, 2010, thirty-five mine sites were assessed. Twenty-five of the sites assessed were in the first phase while ten were in the second phase.

From the assessments made, mining companies are expected to contribute US$190 million towards the cleaning up of the environment after the mine closure. The contributions are made in cash and guarantees. So far, contributions of US$7,700 million cash and US$8,900 million guarantees have been made. These contributions will ensure that the Government is fully indemnified from providing resources to clean up the environment after mine closure.

Mr Chairperson, let me now discuss the budget estimates for my ministry. The budget estimates for my ministry stand at K25.7 billion. My ministry will endeavour to undertake its programmes within the budget allocation to enhance the contribution of the mining sector to the economic development of the country. The ministry’s focus in 2011 will be on the following:

(i) stopping illegal mining. The Government is concerned about the rampant illegal mining of manganese going on in the Luapula Province and Mkushi District leading to the loss of the much-needed Government revenue. My ministry will be taking necessary measures shortly and will need the support of the hon. Members in those areas;

(ii) geological and geochemical mapping of parts of the North-Western Province;

(iii) improving laboratory facilities and analytical techniques in order to monitor mineral exports;

(iv) engaging in activities relating to licensing, mines safety and compliance to environmental regulations;

(v) small-scale mines development which will involve the provision of technical advice on geology, mining, processing, safety and environment;

(vi) monitoring products’ true value of exports for revenue collection;

(vii) continuing investment promotions in order to attract both domestic and foreign private investment to the country to develop the mining industry to its full potential;

(viii) inspection and monitoring of petroleum exploration activities and finalising the strategic environmental assessment for petroleum exploration and development; and

(ix) mineral resource surveys for non-traditional mineral commodities, especially industrial minerals for the construction industry.

The Geological Survey Department will continue with reconnaissance rock sampling of carbonates in the North-Western and Copperbelt provinces to assess the carbonate rocks’ suitability for cement manufacture in order to attract investment in the cement industry.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the mining sector still remains an anchor to our economic development. In this regard, I would like to assure the House that my ministry will continue to promote investment and diversification in the sector, especially for the non-traditional minerals. It is anticipated that the sector will continue growing in 2011 and beyond. I would like to urge the House to support the ministry’s efforts to exploit mineral resources for the benefit of our people.

I, therefore, urge this august House to approve the 2011 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for my ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

Mr Chairperson, tagging from the policy statement by the hon. Minister, I would like to say that I do support the projected expenditure with a bit of reservation and the reasons are very straightforward.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has, for a very long time, together with his colleagues, been persuaded to make maximum use of these mines that exist in our country for purposes of generating revenue to develop this country. Unfortunately, I feel that the right word to use in the way that the Government has responded cannot be far from arrogance. The  Government has displayed unprecedented levels of arrogance in terms of collecting revenue from these mines and this is why I am saying that I do support this Vote, but with  a bit of reservation.

I will take my debate straight to my constituency at Munali Nickel Mine where the hon. Minister has said that the mine has produced 14,000 tonnes of nickel in the last year, coming out of the global recession. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister, from the value of the 14,000 metric tonnes of nickel, how much revenue has remained in the country, considering that concentrates are exported and payments are made away from here. I would also want to know how much benefit has accrued not only to the people of Munali, but also the country as a whole.

Mr Chairperson, this concern can be replicated to even the hub of mining in this country, the Copperbelt. We have been extremely arrogant in the way we have interfaced with the issue of collecting taxes from the mines and we are forgetting that minerals are a wasting asset. We all know that, one day, these minerals will be depleted.

Mr Chairperson, there is already proof of this fact. For instance, at Nkana, there are just pits left and slug, which is of little value, while the minerals have been sold on the London Metal Exchange Market and we have not optimised the revenue that is due to this country.

Mr Chairperson, it is for that reason that I am a very sad person to see that the hon. Minister’s policy statement has just been confined to fatal accidents and no mention was made of general accidents. We agree that there has been a reduction, but the hon. Minister has not made mention of accidents that do not amount to fatality. It would have been prudent for the hon. Minister to indicate safety compliance countrywide.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has also not mentioned the issue of attitude of our investors. On this issue, please, I do not want anyone to misunderstand me because I want to make a fundamental statement here that apartheid has come back to this country. It is at our doorsteps.

We have heard reports of how employees of certain mines on the Copperbelt and in other parts of this country are transported to their workplaces and back to their homes. There are buses for expatriates or foreigners and those for Africans, Zambians. I expected the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to speak on that issue because he has been very silent about it. This is an indication to me that, probably, the fact that apartheid is back forms part of the entertainment in our country.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister spoke about compliance on environmental protection and how the ministry has been firm on indemnification of whatever hazards occur due to these mining activities. Well, that is okay. However, hon. Minister, I think that there is more that can be done and an example that I can give is just what happened a few days ago. Something that happened, three years ago, has happened in Chingola again. We know how the Kafue River has been contaminated and polluted, but there has been no statement from the hon. Minister to indicate exactly what recourse the Government is taking against the perpetrators of this contamination. You know water is life.

 How I wish the hon. Minister could actually pay attention to what I am saying for me to get the satisfaction that I am performing a duty for the people of Mazabuka, instead of him engaging into a discussion with His Honour the Vice-President.

The Deputy Chairperson: Would you, please, continue with the debate. The Cabinet is one and it is listening.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: May you proceed.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate your guidance wholeheartedly. I want the hon. Minister to listen to what I am saying and stop engaging in conversations.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, you are debating through the Chair. Cabinet is listening.

Can you continue with your debate?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, this Cabinet does not listen.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 Is the hon. Member trying to argue with the Chair? If not, then he may proceed with his debate without arguing.

Mr Muyanda: Carry on.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I have just been talking about the contamination in the Kafue River and I want the hon. Minister, as he is winding up debate to, please, indicate to this House and the country, especially the people of Chingola who have been vulnerable as a result of this contamination that has happened two times in a period of four years, the recourse the Government is taking.

Mr Chairperson, in the Southern Province where I come from, some investors shot Zambians in Sinazeze. Since I started off by saying that I wanted to talk about attitudes of our investors, let me mention that, while I appreciate the fact that we need to partner with the investors because they have the money and we have the natural resource, we need to have utmost respect for one another. This is because without our natural resources, they cannot achieve anything with their money. It is of utmost importance for the Government to show a certain amount of responsibility by not protecting people who do not value human life.

Mr Chairperson, it is disheartening to note that, in his statement, the hon. Minister talked about monitoring and compliance, among all these things that he talked about, and yet part of compliance and monitoring means taking people before the law when they are in breach of it.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, please, tread carefully because the matter is in court.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate your guidance. I am now making a general reference to perpetrators of crime. In this country, people shoot each other anyhow. Even around here, we have gunrunners.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Aliko Musonda?

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: The police, in many instances, because we have a dual justice system, can either summon someone to the police or get a warn and caution statement from a perpetrator’s home. That is a dual way of doing things.

Mr Chairperson, I think that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development must look at these matters much more cautiously for him not to be misunderstood. We only have one country and every citizen of this country is a property of the State. They do not need to be threatened with death at whatever level.

Mr Chairperson, moving on to Mazabuka, where I am very fortunate to represent fellow human beings, please, my plea is for the hon. Minister to ensure that, while he supports these investors, certain undertakings that are sealed by ink and have been signed for between his ministry and these investors must come to fruition. Please, make sure that if the undertakings such as corporate social responsibility are what have been given to these mines in exchange for tax holidays, they must perform on what has been agreed.

At Munali, the people I represent were promised a school up to Grade 4 in 2006. To date, not even a foundation stone has been laid at that school which is supposed to cater for pupils up to Grade 4. Look, through you, Sir, Grade 4, come on, hon. Members, …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … is it a sign of seriousness on the part of the Government to negotiate for an investor to build a school up to Grade 4? Can a Grade 4 become a nurse, teacher or lawyer like you, Mr Chairperson? I think the answer is no.

Mr Muyanda: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Do not draw the Chair into your debate.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the Leader of Government Business in the House is a lawyer. Can a Grade 4 become a Leader of Government Business in the House? I think the answer is no.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I have made my point. I would like the Minister, Hon. Mwale, my brother and friend, to look into these few comments and do me a favour of understanding things from my perspective so that, as he responds, he can probably give some amount of hope for the people of Mazabuka, especially that we do have a mine in that part of the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Kambwili.

Mr Lubinda: Tiye mwana.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

Mr Chairperson, to begin with, let me clearly state that the amount allocated to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is not adequate. We have been told, in this House, by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice that the mining industry is flourishing and is developing at quite a fast rate. Now, the allocation of K25.7 billion, this year, to cater for all the areas which the hon. Minister stated that the ministry engages in to monitor the performance of the mining industry, is not enough. I am appealing to the hon. Minister to make sure that the amount allocated to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is increased next year.

Mr Chairperson, windfall tax will never stop being an issue in this House as long as this Government continues to be arrogant. There is absolutely no way the Government is going to convince us that we do not need windfall tax. Windfall tax is inevitable. Unless somebody has a reason that doing away with this tax is only enough to satisfy his own personal needs and pockets, we will not understand. However, if they are representing the people of Zambia, I think, we need to get the windfall tax back. The hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning and Mines and Minerals Development and this Government in particular, have failed the people of Zambia by failing to reintroduce windfall tax.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili: The price of copper is unprecedented. It is over US$ 8,000 per tonne. When these investors came, they said they would make a profit of 15 per cent at a price of US$3,300.

They were comfortable with a 15 per cent profit. Therefore, why are we refusing to introduce windfall tax when the copper prices have increased? The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning told this House that we are the only country that is talking about charging windfall tax. If we are the only country, why is the International Monitoring Fund (IMF) and hon. Ministers from other countries telling us to reintroduce windfall tax? For once, the hon. Minister should stop being arrogant and reintroduce windfall tax.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You have made a direct attack on an individual and you will withdraw that statement.

Mr Kambwili: He is shaking his head. I withdraw that statement, but the hon. Minister should stop shaking his head.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Let us reintroduce the windfall tax and raise money on behalf of the people of Zambia to develop the country.

Mr Chairperson, the last time I spoke on the conditions of service for the Luanshya Mine workers, the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, who is not here today, stood up on the Floor of this House and said the people of Luanshya …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I can see the hon. Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security there.

Mr Kambwili: I am talking about the hon. Minister and not the hon. Deputy Minister.

The hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security stood on the Floor of this House and said that the problem of the Luanshya Mine workers getting low salaries is the unions’, whose duty it is to negotiate for better salaries. I, however, would like to remind this hon. Minister that, last year, when the two unions, Mineworkers’ Union of Zambia (MUZ) and National Union of Mine and Allied Workers (NUMAW) decided to negotiate for better salaries, it was the hon. Ministers of Mines and Minerals Development and Labour and Social Security who told the unions to give the Chinese a chance to settle down.

It is retrogressive for the hon. Minister, who came to plead with the unions in Luanshya to give the Chinese time to settle down, to come to this House and mislead the nation that it is because of the unions that the people at Luanshya Copper Mines get low salaries. I stated in my last debate that there is no way Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) and Mopani Copper Mine can pay K2.8 million for a G7 employee, but the Chinese in Luanshya are paying K1.2 million. All the mine companies on the Copperbelt sell their copper at the London Metal Exchange, therefore, why should the mineworkers in Luanshya be paid peanuts?

I want to tell the hon. Minister, in plain language, that the miners in Luanshya and I have declared war on the Chinese …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: … until they increase the salaries for the miners.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Kambwili, you know the words to use in this House. How can you declare war on individuals? That is not allowed in here. Can you withdraw that statement and continue debating properly.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, we are not going to accept …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: You will withdraw that statement of declaration of war. You cannot declare war. 

Mr Kambwili: I withdraw my declaration of war.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: However, we have declared a dispute with the Chinese investors in Luanshya until they increase the salaries of miners. We want to find out who are the true owners of the copper mines in Luanshya; whether it is the Chinese or Zambians living in Luanshya. If it is the Chinese, they will continue paying the people low salaries. However, if the copper belongs to us, we are not going to accept any more peanuts from that mine.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I want the hon. Minister to make it very clear to the owners of the mine in Luanshya that enough is enough and we are not going to be mistreated in our own country.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We need to get benefits from the mining industry in Luanshya. I said it before …

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Mr Malwa: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor, who is debating so clumsily, in order to state that the Luanshya Copper Mines workers have declared a dispute with the Chinese mine owners, and yet that mine was closed and workers had no jobs, but now the mine has provided employment to the miners and they are getting paid? Is he in order, really, not to acknowledge that? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister has debated his point of order. However, let me take this opportunity to say that the hon. Members on my left are a little loud and it will help if they allow the hon. Member on the Floor to speak. Let the hon. Members on my right, that is the Government, listen properly and respond thereafter. I also wish to say that much as they are listening to you quietly, I will expect you, on my left, to also listen quietly when it is their turn to respond.

Hon. Kambwili, continue.

Mr Kambwili: Sir, I was saying that we are not going to accept low salaries any more in Luanshya. If the Chinese want to continue paying low salaries, they must be prepared to leave Luanshya. This is a friendly and timely warning to the hon. Minister to advise the Chinese that low salaries will not be accepted in Luanshya any more. What is happening at the Luanshya Copper Mines is very bad …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Kambwili, may I just remind you that some words you are using are being listened to outside and can be misunderstood. You may mean well for the people of Luanshya, but you may create a problem in the process. Therefore, please, debate, but tone down the threats and bring the concerns of the people of Luanshya to light.

May you continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, the problem that we have is that when the people complain, it is the Government that is first to defend the Chinese and that is why you see people becoming emotional. Surely, how can an hon. Minister, who knows that he came to plead with the unions to give the Chinese a chance, turn round and come to this House and say the issue of low salaries is a problem for the unions.

These hon. Ministers must listen to us. We live with these Chinese and when we tell them that these Chinese are bad, they must listen and not defend them. The hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development keeps saying I am a beneficiary of Chinese investment. I do not benefit from the Chinese for nothing. I give them business and they pay for the service that I provide to them and, therefore, that should not be a reason for anybody to rebuke me. Anybody else who wants can also do business with the Chinese.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: If I am doing business with the Chinese, it does not mean that they must ill-treat my electorates.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Kambwili: I am not going to accept anybody to mistreat my electorates. Foreign investors must respect the people of Zambia. Copper is a wasting asset. A few years from now, there will be no copper in Luanshya, but what will we account for when the Chinese leave Luanshya? When I was debating the President’s Speech, I said that miners in Luanshya have more problems on their pay day than on an ordinary day because of low salaries. You will find shylocks hovering around the banks chasing miners. They do not get their money freely because they get very low salaries. They are forced to go to shylocks to borrow for them to sustain their lives.

As a Government, we must be able to tell the Chinese that enough is enough. They must pay the miners well. Even the treatment of employees at Luanshya Copper mines is not good. For instance, wherever there is a Zambian manager, there is a superior Chinese manager. The Zambian managers do not make decisions at all. They are just figureheads. We have allowed engineers who are not affiliated to the Engineering Institute of Zambia to practise in Zambia. Surely, can a Zambian go and practise in China without being affiliated to the …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Please, take a seat.

I can see the hon. Member is passionate about the plight of his electorate, but I need to remind the hon. Member that we are discussing the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and not that of labour. You need to take that distinction into account as you debate. Otherwise, you will have veered completely from the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

May you continue.

Mr Kambwili: Sir, I think the treatment of Zambian miners in Luanshya must be checked. The hon. Minister, in his policy statement, said that one of the ministry’s functions is to monitor the operations of the mining companies. It is because the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development has failed to monitor the operations of Chinese-run mines that our people are being mistreated. The situation at Chambeshi mine is the same.

There is a Zambian human resources manager and a Chinese human resources manager and a Zambian section engineer and a Chinese section engineer. When it comes to management meetings, the Zambians and Chinese hold meetings separately. They also do not even follow retrenchment and dismissal procedures. A Chinese will just come and say, “Today, you, no jobo, no jobo,” and a worker is fired, and yet there are disciplinary procedures that are supposed to be followed ...

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: ... and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development does not do anything to put this to a stop. I appeal to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to help the people of Luanshya. I am passionately debating because I would like the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to help us by resolving these problems. Do not create an impression that we hate the Chinese because we do not hate them. All I am asking for ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May the hon. Member for Roan, please, debate the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development?

You may continue.

Mr Kambwili: But, what is wrong with that? I have stopped.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote on the Floor.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to say that the issue of mines is very close to my heart because I worked for the mines for a long time. Therefore, when I see the mines go down, I get concerned. It is for this reason that we cannot continue to bury our heads in the sand and expect this country to prosper. We need to be involved in the change of things. We are all praying for this change to take place. The change should be there at all levels. We want to see change in its fullness because there are briefcase investors who have come into this country. I have said this before. They come into this country without money as contractors and engineers. They get loans from our banks and, at the end of the day, go away with billions of Kwacha.

I get concerned when the hon. Minister says production has increased. He also said that copper production will now be 740,000 metric tonnes in 2011 and projecting 677,000 metric tonnes. What are Zambians going to benefit from the figures that he quoted? Zambia has a lot of minerals such as emeralds, blue stone, nickel, uranium, gold, diamonds, and cobalt and so on and so forth, but what do we benefit from all these resources as Zambians? We talk about these minerals but, at the end of the day, we do not get anything from them. 

Sir, copper, for example, generates about 70 per cent of the foreign exchange that this country earns, but we only get 1 per cent as revenue from it. Is that something to boast about? Therefore, it is important that we look seriously at this aspect. If we do not, we will continue to be ground for investors and remain at the same level. Zambia is a rich country. God gave us the minerals, and not the MMD Government, that we may prosper. However, Zambians have not prospered. There might be prosperity in the pockets of a few people who have been rubbing shoulders with investors, but we need equity in the distribution of resources and wealth of this nation.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: If there is no equity, we will continue to suffer as a nation. Why should we continue to suffer, as a nation, forty-six years after independence when we have copper? There are countries that have only few minerals such as zinc, for example, but are doing better than us. At one time, we were once the largest producer of copper in the world, but is there anything to show for that now? There is nothing. Why should it be like that? That is why we have been saying we need the windfall tax because it has worked. If we had windfall tax, we would not be complaining. The Government just talks about variable tax. Why should the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning borrow money from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) if we are able to utilise our resources properly? If resources were utilised properly, we would have been lending money to other countries because we would have had the capacity to do so. However, there is no capacity and political will and so we will continue to suffer. It is important that we look at these issues seriously because if we do not do this, the status quo will remain the same. Once beaten, twice shy. We should learn from the mistakes that we made in the past and make sure that we put measures in place for the future.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue is about the plight of miners. They are suffering. They work hard, but earn very little. They cannot afford to take their children to decent schools, but we are told in this House that the country is collecting revenue from the mines. What revenue is collected when the miners who toil so much do not earn enough for them to look after their families and let alone their future? Most miners die two months after being retrenched because of the unacceptable conditions of service that we have allowed investors to give to the local people. Therefore, I appeal to the Government to ensure that our people are given proper conditions of service, but this can only be done by the ministry.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the mines on the Copperbelt. If you talk about the Chambishi Metals where the Chinese are and the rest, I can assure you that all the mines that are under the Chinese are still experiencing the global economic crisis. The workers are being told by the Chinese that they have not yet recovered from the global economic crisis. What does that mean when Zambia and everybody else has? Why are they still paying workers K200,000 per month? How can thew survive on so little? So, it is important to address these issues. We cannot continue to bury our heads in the sand when our people are suffering. We will not stop taking about this because it affects us directly. The people are suffering and the Government should be concerned.

When the pact comes into power, and I am appointed Minister of Industries, these are the issues we will look into ...

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mukanga: ... because we do not want our people to suffer. We need to change. Why should there be double standards? A Chinese section engineer gets more than a Zambian section engineer. This is also happening at the Kafue Sugar Company in Kafue. The Zambians are given low salaries compared to Zimbabwean expatriates. It is important that we address these issues. The hon. Minister and I are former miners and so, he knows what I am talking about. Why should these anomalies continue in this country? Therefore, it is important that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development addresses these anomalies. I will make sure that I change things, next year, when the pact takes over so that the Zambians have the best conditions of service.

Hon. Government Members: When will that be?

Mr Mukanga:  When the pact comes into power in 2011. This is the year of the Lord and we will take over because of what is happening. The Government has been advised several times but nothing is being done about this. At times, when I sit here to listen to the answers given by the Executive, I wonder whether they really listen because the advice that comes from the Opposition is very important. If only it got our advice, it would be difficult for us to push the MMD Government out of office in 2011 ...

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: ... but because you do not listen, it will be a walk over for the pact. People are wondering whether there is a Government which cares and protects its people if the Chinese can shoot people like they did on the Copperbelt at Chambishi Mine. When such issues are raised in this House, the Government complains. In fact, this did not just happen at Chambishi Mine, but also at Collumn Coal Mine in the Southern Province all because the Government does not follow up issues. Therefore, this is not going to be the last time it has happened. The Chinese will continue to shoot people.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member for Kantanshi should be aware that he is veering away into labour issues. You started very well. Please, debate the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

You may continue.

Mr Mukanga: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Regarding the shooting of people on the Copperbelt, I want to say that there is a need for people to be protected as far as safety is concerned. We need to look at the safety of the mines seriously.

When miners were trapped underground in Chile, I expected the Government to send a team of experts to go and learn from there. What did our Government do? Nothing. We were busy watching what was happening on television. What I saw was exactly what the hon. Minister saw too. It is not supposed to be like that. The hon. Minister should have seen more to appreciate what went on there.

Mr Chairperson, we need to learn from the experiences of other people. If we do not, it will be difficult for us when faced with a similar situation.

Sir, we need to improve the safety standards in our mines. However, the Vote we are considering at the moment exhibits a lot of gray areas. I see a problem because how do you expect to improve the operations and safety of people when the inspectorate has been given such little money? What can we do with K24.8 million for inspection, K150 million for inspection of mine sites, and K194 million for monitoring large-scale mines when we have a number of large-scale mines?

I am very concerned about the safety of the miners who work on the mines at night. They are at risk. People cannot be assured of any protection from the Government looking at this provision.

Captain Moono: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. Is it procedural?

Captain Moono: It is, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Captain Moono: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member debating the Vote on Floor so well in order to forget to advise the Government …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Captain Moono: … to buy bullet proof jackets for miners?

The Deputy Chairperson: There is nothing procedural about that point of order.

The hon. Member on the Floor may continue.

Interruptions

Mr Munaile: To protect them from the Chinese.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, it is important that we look at issues relating to the protection and inspection of the mines seriously. How can we protect the miners if we reduce the allocations in the Yellow Book? The reductions are big and range from K50 million to K24.8 million, K100 million to K36 million, K300 million to K150 million, K449 million to K124 million and then K50 million. How do you expect any protection?

If we are to see change at all levels of our operations, we need to be serious about the way we make our allocations. If we want to increase mining activities we also have to handle environmental pollution. We need to take care of environmental pollution because the amount of pollution that is taking place currently is not acceptable.

For instance, where I come from, in Mufulira, there is a lot of sulphur dioxide which is a serious pollutant that can suffocate and kill young children.

Interruption

Mr Mukanga: This has happened in the past. The buildings in Mufulira need to be painted three to four times a year because of the sulphur dioxide. What are you doing as regards environmental protection? What have you done about the pollution taking place in the Kafue River?

When similar pollution occurred in Mufulira, we were told on the Floor of the House, that there would be no recurrence of such pollution on the mines because we have done everything possible. However, on Saturday, we saw serious pollution that led to a lot of fish dying. Now, what are the effects on the people who eat that very fish? As a result of that pollution, some people thought that was a feast. What are you going to do about that?

In Mufulira, when people were made to consume acid, you did not do anything about it. Is there any compensation that will be given to the people of Chingola?

You might think that the pollution in the Kafue River will only affect the people of Chingola. Kafue flows all the way to the Indian Ocean. You will also be affected by the pollution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Whether you like it or not, part of it will affect you. Do not think that you are only getting rid of the people of Chingola, but yourselves too. That is why the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ) needs to be strengthened. It needs to have teeth to bite, unlike the current situation where, when somebody pollutes a river or the environment, they are only charged K500, 000 or K100, 000. It does not pay.

We need to protect the people of the land. The reason you are in those offices is to ensure that there is no serious pollution.

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: You are in those offices to monitor the operations of the mines. If you do not monitor the operations, some of the new methods that the investors are using might be disastrous in the future. If this happens, where will you be? You might think that you will not be there, but some of your relatives will be there. Some of the happenings are pending disasters.

Ms Lundwe: Finally,

Mr Mukanga: Sir, it is important that we look at the issues that are raised from the left because they are serious. We are serious about these issues and by the time we take over office, we want things to be in place so that there is a smooth transition.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: With the way you are operating, you will be running from one end to the other, hiding files because of the things that you are doing. We want things to be done well in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development as well as every body that has been created to supervise and monitor the operations of the mines.

Sir, the Mines Safety Department (MSD) needs to be empowered to ensure that it does a good and clean job.

Mr Lubinda: Kamba futi ati we will form Government.

Mr Mukanga: Yes, we will form Government in 2011.

Ms Lundwe: Finally!

Mr Mukanga: Do not say ‘finally’ because I have not finished. We are forming Government in 2011 whether you like it or not.

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: The Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is one area where we will change a lot of things in order to empower Zambians.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this Vote.

From the outset, I wish to record my support for this Vote. However, before I continue, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and his Government for …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: … bringing more investors to the mining industry. The other day, we witnessed the hon. Minister sign a Memorandum of Understanding for prospecting in the Central Province.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: I want to encourage the Government that this is what we need in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: We need to go beyond just mining by supporting other ventures such as farming. However, we should not cheat ourselves that we should phase out mining operations …

The Deputy Chairperson: The word ‘cheat’ is unparliamentary. You will withdraw it and proceed.

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the word ‘cheating’ and say that we should not pretend that we do not need mining operations in this country because we have a long way to go before we can diversify into other areas that can make as much impact on the development of this country as mining has. It is for this reason that I encourage the Government to go to all the provinces and see where we can prospect for different types of minerals.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, I was taken aback last week when I heard one hon. Member of Parliament bemoan the plight of peasant farmers in Chilanga whom he said were being disturbed by mining operations. I said …

Captain Moono: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Captain Moono: Mr Chairperson, that was my maiden speech and it is not subject for discussion here.

Interruptions

Captain Moono: Is he in order?

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Member: Be careful rebel.

Mr Chongo: Be careful rebel, muno?

Ms Lundwe: Mwasuke, iwe!

Mr V. Mwale: Kalipa, Chongo!

The Deputy Chairperson: The point of order that has been raised is valid because that was a maiden speech and you cannot raise issues on it.

The hon. Member should continue and veer away from that subject.

Laughter

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for that guidance.

I would like to state that we encourage mining activities wherever they are taking place regardless of issues that arise during the process of mining. I am an advocate of mining activities, having been a miner myself.

Interruptions

Mr Chongo: I have been taken aback by seeing that the mapping exercise that has been conducted in Luapula Province in the last two years has no allocation in the 2011 Budget.

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: I am wondering whether the project has been abandoned because I am aware that the province has not been fully covered.

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: Therefore, I am asking the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to reconsider this issue so that, at least, this exercise in Luapula Province can be completed.

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: Sir, since I only have a few issues to talk about, let me talk about the safety aspect in the mines and mining in general.

Mr Lubinda: Kamba, mwana!

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, in the 2010 Budget, K516, 072,171.00 was allocated for seismology geophysical exploration, but this has been reduced to K325,500,785.00 in the 2011 Budget.

Ms Lundwe: Given, face the Chair!

Mr Lubinda: I want to listen properly. That is why I am looking at him.

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, this is an important activity, especially that we need to be monitoring seismic activities in Zambia in areas where we have underground operations because we need to understand how the ground is behaving. For example, in the Kankoyo area of  Mufulira,  there are houses that are reported to be cracking and sinking.

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: This is as a result of tectonic movements of the ground caused by earth quaking or giving-in of the pillars that support mining in underground areas. When those areas start giving in, it is expected that houses that are closer to those areas will start giving in as well. Therefore, we need to intensify this exercise. I do not agree with the hon. Minister that the amount of money for this important exercise should be reduced. I wonder why the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development cannot go to the Kankoyo area to check what is happening there.

Currently, there is a war between the municipal council and Mopani Copper Mine. Why should this be so when we have a ministry in place that can determine the extent of this problem? If need be, relocate these people if the ground will be caving in because Kankoyo Section A, which we are talking about, is just about 30m away from a shaft. In the 1970s, that is an area which caved in most in the entire area. Therefore, we expect such things to happen in the area. People who are competent in this field must go and determine the extent of the caving in and, if need arises, the people should be relocated and compensated …

Mr Lubinda: Very good.

Mr Chongo: … so that they can build houses elsewhere.  In fact, the ministry has what we call an Environmental Protection Fund to which all these mining houses are contributing. This is the fund that must be used to carry out this exercise.

Mr Chairperson, in the same area of safety, I have seen that on Unit 2, Programme 8, Activity 07 – Sensitisation of Small-Scale Miners on Safety, Health and Environmental issues (SHE) – Nil, has not been provided for in the 2011 Budget while K30 million was provided in the 2010 Budget.

I am wondering whether we are through with the sensitisation programme because a lot still needs to be done. For instance, small-scale miners and emerging contractors are competing for jobs in the mines. As a result, they tend to under-quote their tenders so that they can win the contracts. Consequently, the people who are affected most are their workers because they are exposing them to a lot of dangers. They are not buying them the safety equipment that they need to use during the course of their work. Why should we not allocate more funds to this activity? I am requesting the hon. Minister to allocate something to this activity so that this exercise can continue.

Finally, …

Mr Lubinda: Talk about manganese!

Mr Chongo: … a few years back, after realising that mining was a wasting asset, the Government introduced a diversification programme. I think this was about six years ago. Now, this exercise is no more. It is important to plan for miners who are going to leave employment because of retirement and, maybe, because there will be no minerals to mine. Today, miners leaving employment are becoming more destitute than we see in any other sector. Therefore, it is important to intensify the diversification programme for the miners and not to start when they leave employment. It should be a process that must start at some point before miners leave employment. There are youths who are unemployed. Miners have children and wives who can be empowered through giving them agro inputs so that even as the breadwinners stop work or copper runs out, they will swiftly move from this sector to another without becoming destitute.

With these few words, I wish to support the Vote and thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to …

Mr Munaile: Mwebene bamigodi landeni po!

Mr Milupi: … contribute to debate on this Vote.

I will confine my debate to three items. The first one is on large-scale mining, that is precious stones. Secondly, I will talk about small-scale mining, that is precious metals and, of course, the oil explorations which fall under this ministry.

Mr Chairperson, as far as we are concerned, among the economic sectors that must drive this country forward, to me, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is perhaps the most important ministry in this country. It is one ministry that has the potential to contribute to what we, on this side, call accelerated development. Therefore, what we do about that ministry determines how well we shall achieve our developmental goals.

Now, let us look at how far on the ladder of priorities this ministry is. Its budget has gone up from K24,484,817,871 to K25,727,996,933 which is an increase of 4.8 per cent. We are boasting that inflation has come down to 7.3 per cent. So, this is the only ministry which has an increase way below inflation levels, and yet, as I have said, it should be one of the most critical ones.

Sir, let us look at some of the programmes that the ministry intends to participate in. Already, the hon. Minister has talked about an increased volume of mining which has to be monitored. The 747,950,000 tonnes that will come out of our soils will entail a lot of work and, therefore, with the potential for environmental degradation and accidents. Will all these activities be monitored by this ministry?

Secondly, there are other minerals being discovered, mines coming up and the geological mapping of this country which the ministry has to undertake. There is oil exploration which is covering three districts in the North-Western Province and three districts in the Western Province. All this, to me, suggests a heightened level of activities for this ministry, and yet this is the ministry that can only get a 4.8 per cent increase in the budgetary allocation. Why is this so? Has Hon. Maxwell Mwale not been able to prevail on his counterparts in Cabinet so that he can make them recognise the importance of this ministry? It is this shouting of, “Hear, hear”, in this House that is making these colleagues in Cabinet treat the ministry in this manner.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia is a blessed country because we have a variety of minerals such as copper, cobalt, nickel, gold, manganese and silver. These are gifts that were given to us by God. Our premier mineral is copper. Those who have studied the pricing of copper from way back in the 1930s to date, will tell you that the price of copper is cyclical. It goes up and down. As much as the price of copper is as high as it is at the moment, it will surely come down at some stage. It is incumbent upon those nations that depend on this mineral to get maximum benefits during the times of high copper prices.

Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Milupi: The hon. Minister was able to say that one of the priorities or responsibilities of his ministry is to get maximum benefits for the Zambian people. That is what he said in his statement. Let us look at what the ministry is doing in this regard. When we were debating the speech of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, we were able to show that, in terms of taxation, the contribution is in the order of 1.5 per cent to 2 per cent.

Mr Chairperson, copper is to Zambia, what oil is to the Middle East, what gold was to South Africa and what diamonds are to Botswana. It is upon these natural resources that nations develop. If you go to Johannesburg now, the mines have stopped operating. The former mines are now tourist attractions. You can go there and you will not see any mining activity in Johannesburg, but because they were able to use those resources from gold for developing the town, it has remained the metropolis it has always been. It is a very attractive place. If you look at the Middle East, it is developing at such a fast rate because countries in that region are able to properly utilise the resources from oil. Botswana is now a middle-income country with a per capita income of over 8,000 dollars because of utilising the resources it gets from diamonds properly.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of profit retention, Botswana retains 65 per cent of the profits coming from the diamond sales. In Zambia, we are told that we can only retain 5 per cent of the profits from copper. Even though that is the case, nobody, least of all myself, can speak against the killing of the mining companies. I am what I am today because of my experience in the mining industry. I am glad that the Chairperson has been careful when picking speakers to contribute to the current debate on the Floor of the House as the first four debaters are ex-miners. These are Hon. Kambwili, Hon. Mukanga, Hon. Chongo and me. Among us, we have over 200 years experience in mining and, therefore, we are entitled to say what we are saying.

Mr Chairperson, if you look at a country like Norway, you will discover that it relied on North Sea oil to develop. Norway is a European country which has a listening government in place and this can be seen when you look at their windfall tax. They have a 28 per cent corporate tax. In addition to that corporate tax, they have a 50 per cent windfall tax. The total taxation that is on those natural resources is in the order of 78 per cent, but the North Sea companies which are in that country are still making huge profits. A similar structure of taxation was brought to this House by this Government. The reason the argument about windfall tax will not disappear from the Floor of this House and this country is that these hon. Ministers who are still in Government are the ones who came here, not long ago, and told us about the beauty of introducing windfall tax and even raising mineral royalty tax from 0.6 per cent to 3 per cent.

Interruptions

Mr Milupi: Hon. Kalombo Mwansa, who was hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, was in the forefront of bringing that proposal here. Hon. Maxwell Mwale who was the hon. Deputy Minister in Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development was in the forefront of supporting it. The then Vice-President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, was leading them in supporting that proposal. The current Vice-President was Minister of Justice then. All these hon. Ministers were there. They brought it here for us to support. We, in the Opposition rose to support it in national interest and because it made good sense. We did not support it for the sake of supporting a new proposal. We understood exactly what needed to be done. We listened to their explanations carefully. The trigger point for the windfall tax at $2.50 per pound was well thought out. They convinced us that they took into account the production costs, including those of the high cost producers and they allowed for reasonable profits. That is why they put in place the trigger point mechanism. We agreed with them when they told us that the proposal was reasonable. They then went ahead and introduced the proposal. The same people, today, come here to tell us that things have changed and that no country has windfall tax in place anymore. Who told them that?

Mr Chairperson, the point we are making is that due to the cyclical nature regarding the prices of copper and other minerals, there will come a time when the prices will be very low. We should not treat the investors the way we are treating them. Bear in mind that I have always said that no one is against the investors. I am really in support of the vast investment that is going in the mining sector. We want more mines opened and more jobs created, but let us look at who is benefiting the most from our resources. If you go to Kitwe and Nkana West in particular, go onto Mindolo Road and it will give you an indication of the state of the main roads leading into the Copperbelt towns. The roads are damaged because of the increased tonnage going into the various mining areas. Some of them are like canals.

Hon. Oppositions Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: They are grooved now. I do not expect the mining company to repair those roads because those are public roads. It is the Government which is supposed to repair the roads. For Hon. Mulongoti and his ministry to repair them, they need funding and that funding can only come from our natural resources. We shall continue to say that we shall not change our original stance regarding windfall tax passionately, despite the Government moving away from its original position.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, let me just briefly talk about small-scale mining. The mining of precious stones such as emeralds is scandalous. The Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development should come up with a programme to ensure that this country also benefits from the emeralds. The value of the emerald industry in the whole world is about US$3 billion. Out of that, 20 per cent of that money is from emeralds from this country. So, we are talking about revenue of US$600 million, but none of it is for the Treasury. Why? Please, understand that these things are not difficult to control. You cannot say that because the minerals are small, they can easily be taken out of the country without the Government knowing. The diamonds that are making Botswana rich are smaller than our emeralds. We can put in place the same measures that have been adopted in Botswana. You still have the opportunity to put them in place. You were put in power to govern us. Before Hon. Yamfwa Mukanga takes over, make sure that you do something to sort out that problem.

Mr Mukanga indicated assent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about oil exploration. I think …

Interruptions

Mr Milupi: He will be my minister.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: I will be in another house.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the oil exploration that has excited a number of people in this country and quite rightly so. However, if there is the potential for oil in Chavuma, Zambezi West, Kabompo, Kalabo, Lukulu and Mongu, we must accelerate efforts to confirm whether there is oil or not in those areas. We must also make sure that even when this oil is found, we take the route which will ensure that it is not only the investors who will benefit through their profits and dividends, but also the local communities through employment as well as equity participation.  It is not too difficult for us as a country to say that if this resource resides in our country, you can only exploit it if you work together with our people.

Hon. Chizhyuka, who is now your friend, is always talking about the Bafokeng Tribe.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I have seen Hon. Chizhyuka seated and quietly listening to you. Why are you drawing him into your debate? Can you leave him alone and continue.

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, I am the one who made him know about the Bafokeng Tribe.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, the point I am making is that these resources must benefit us. That is why we have the specter of an increasing gross domestic product (GDP), but increased poverty and suffering amongst the people. It is wrong for such things to be happening. That is why we are passionately saying that you should do something about the current situation because you have an opportunity with these vast resources. Next year, at the copper price you are projecting, the mining sector, through copper and cobalt alone, will have revenue in excess of US$6 billion, and yet you, as a Government, will only have a total budget of US$3.5 billion. Think about that and do something about it.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for affording me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor of the House. My debate will be extremely brief.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Hachipuka: Sir, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and, indeed, to the Government to spend some time in ascertaining the various sources of our minerals. We have copper, cobalt and various other minerals coming out of the various mines across the country. Unless, this Government can invest in the skills that can help us determine the acceptable costs of production internationally in each of our mines,…

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: … we will be groping in the dark and posterity will not judge us favourably.

I do not want to believe that the present hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning and Mines and Minerals Development are the alpha and omega. I do not believe they are because they are human beings. We have had many governments before which have all been made up of human beings. They could be right or wrong in what they do, but the country must move on. We must accept that within the confines of human error, the country must go on.

Seriously, I do not believe that this country has been able to spend sufficient resources to assist this Government to know what the cost of production from each source of our minerals is. There is new technology in the mines which some of us did not leave at the time we were leaving the mines. Not even Hon. Milupi left some of the new technology in the mines today. Therefore, to say in this House and pretend that we know the average cost of production of each source of the minerals that we are exporting is a fallacy. I want to appeal to this Government to seriously consider investing into manpower, whether it is through the University of Zambia or Zambia Revenue Authority, so that we can have people in this country who can determine the various costs of production of the various minerals. I think that is what Chile and many other countries have done.

Sir, His Honour, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is an eloquent lawyer while some of us are politicians …

Mr Lubinda: Aah!

Mr Hachipuka: Yes! You cannot debate that fact. His Honour the Vice-President is a good lawyer, but he cannot be a good miner or accountant. You cannot be everything because the world is not like that. We all pick areas which we can specialise in because the world is big.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice indicated assent.

Mr Hachipuka: Therefore, I would like to admonish you that in the process of your failure to secure good advice, you are bound to make mistakes because we are all human.

All of us in the United Party for National Development (UPND) go to the party president, Mr Hakainde and tell him the best information that we know about the world. That is how he is able to know about a lot of different things. Even you in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) go to President Banda and tell him the best information that we know. It is not a crime to give your President the best information that you know. I am imploring you to improve your source of technical competence. That is all I am asking for. I hope you have heard.

The second point I want to make is that I am not amongst those who are calling for windfall tax to be reintroduced because I am educated.

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka:  Even though I do not subscribe to the idea that windfall tax should be reintroduced, I still want to ask that we put in place a mechanism which will give the Government the freedom to adjust prices as and when necessary. If the prices of copper go up, you must have a mechanism in place to get sufficient money from the mines to spend elsewhere. You must retain the right to be able to fully negotiate with the investors running the mines. There are arguments in support of both windfall tax as well as variable tax. Those are two separate arguments. Who knows the merits and demerits of those arguments? They are all just debates from my perspective.

I have no doubt in my mind that the issue at hand is that the Government knows, for certain, that the copper industry is a wasting asset. One day, the mining companies will leave holes in the ground and I think you know that. However, this Government must retain the right to ask the mining companies to spare more money to spend in other areas when, for instance, the price of copper is at US$ 8,000 or US$ 11,000.

Mr Chairperson, the fight of the average Zambian is that of asking this Government to get money from the mines and spend it elsewhere. That is the argument. The formula on how that is to be done is left with the Executive.

Mr Munkombwe: You are speaking like a president of a political party!

Mr Hachipuka: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka: However, it is important that you retain the right of taking money from one area and spend it in another area. That is the argument. This is what we are discussing here.

Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: You should have that right.

At the moment, the people of Zambia have given you the mandate to govern this country. Please, look at how best you can help them.

Today, I was listening to the radio and I believe most of you did. The Americans made history when they voted Barrack Obama into office. Yesterday, they voted and, today, the results show that the Democrats have lost one of the houses. I can assure you that President Obama is going to change his course. He cannot afford to lose two years down the line and this is because the Americans have spoken. When people vote, they indicate to you where they want to go and you cannot be oblivious of that fact. You cannot ignore that.

Mr Munkombwe interjected.

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka: I am just humbly asking the Government to do what the Zambian people want but, please, keep me out of your debate over the withholding or variable taxes.

I, therefore, urge His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, through the Chairperson, to take responsibility. Zambians are saying that they want water. Should an argument on whether to get this water from the donors arise, Zambians are not saying that get it from the donors. They are reminding this Government to use the only asset we have as country. That is all they are asking this Government to do. They are not asking for anything else. You can sit back like lame ducks and say, “We will continue governing,” but do not forget this and I want to repeat …

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not repeat, hon. Member, but only emphasise.

Mr Hachipuka: I can emphasise, thank you.

Sir, I do not know whether this Government has noticed that the Zambians are getting impatient. For example, some of the arguments I listen to on radio or read in newspapers are symptomatic of impatience. Sometimes, when people get impatient, they do not listen to reason. People riot because they do not listen to reason. Some of the issues that are discussed in the newspapers are not reasonable, but the Zambians are looking for something else to sustain their livelihood.

Mr Chairperson, for the first time, I would like to refer to Hon. Major Chizhyuka’s debate in relation to the Bafokeng of South Africa, which is the same issue Hon. Milupi raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: The other day, as I flew back from Durban, I picked a magazine which depicts where the world’s wealth rests. It had pictures of the Arabs and whoever else has amassed wealth. I kept it and brought it for my wife to read. If you want, I can also bring it for the House to read. This magazine clearly shows how one king helped his people develop through the mining industry.

As you argue amongst yourselves, as a Government, which investors you would want to bring to this country − fortunately, I am not a part of your Government or anyone else’s, but by virtue of being an Opposition hon. Member of Parliament, presumably, I am − you have to think about tomorrow.

If one man amongst the Bafokeng could actually stand for his people, who are substantially illiterate, and demand that a high percentage of whatever the mining companies’ produced be retained to advance the cause of his people, I do not see why the President, the Vice-President and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning cannot do better than one man. I cannot see why.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: The argument is that we, as a country, cannot continue being beggars. In the recent past, we had an issue of donors withholding their funding, and yet the Government is sitting back when the world is urging it to look into the only asset it has, copper. The Government is insulting us, and yet we are just advising it.

Interruptions

Mr Hachipuka: Do not do that. Look at what you have and use it to better yourselves. You cannot continue being beggars.

Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, I do not have the answers to how to redeem this country from being a beggar because I am not in a position to. However, if I were in your shoes, I would spend money on improving the skills of the officers at the ZRA. I would also spend money on any university to give me the skills and advice I need.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to state that I am disappointed with the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, hon. Ministers and, indeed, the President of the Republic of Zambia because they are educated people who should be able to sit and reason together. My advice to them is that they should not sit as a Cabinet because they will all be intimidated by the authority that rendered them into those offices. Do not do that. Be honest like Hon. Munkombwe. I respect him because he is honest and will tell you exactly what he thinks about something.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: Be like him and tell the President the truth about where this country is heading. If you do not, God forbid. This country needs peace and development.

Mr Ntundu: I told you!

Mr Hachipuka: It has to head in the right direction. This has nothing to do with political parties, but where this country should head to.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Hon. Members, you will realise that it is not possible to call on all of you who are indicating to debate. We have already had seven hon. Members debate and I will only allow three more to speak because we have to make progress.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me contribute to the debate on the policy on mining in our country.

Sir, as I listened attentively, very attentively, to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development deliver his policy statement, I held on to some hope to hear him mention the Government’s policy on the mining industry which is important to this country.

Mr Chairperson, unfortunately, I was soundly disappointed and saddened that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, as he delivered his policy statement on mining, did not come up with a policy that we, as a country, can follow in relation to the mining industry.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, there is only one hon. Member who has been given the authority to speak and we will listen to him.

Mr Simuusa, you may continue.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that I am saddened that, as a country, we still do not have a clear policy on mining.

The previous speakers said, and I would like to adopt their debate as my own, that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is the most important ministry in this country. This is in the sense that the mainstay of this economy is mining. I am glad that the President as well as the hon. Minister admitted the fact that the mainstay of this economy is mining and it shall be so for a very long time. As such, Sir, I would like to know what the policy regarding mining is.

Listening to the hon. Minister …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was advancing a point that after listening to the hon. Minister’s policy statement, I asked myself where the policy for our country on mining was because I failed to identify it.

Mr Chairperson, I can safely say that, as a country, we have failed to come up with a policy for the mining sector. Even though we make statements such as mining being the mainstay of the economy, I have bemoaned the attention given to it. This is because the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, when presenting his Budget Speech, only dedicated one and half paragraphs to it, and yet this is the sector which is supposed to be the mainstay of the economy. This shows that we are not being sincere and we have run out of ideas concerning this sector.

The hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development talked about a policy on gaining benefits for the Zambians. This is also the cry of the Zambians and this is what my predecessors have said. As a Government and country, we have failed to derive any benefit from the minerals. I would like to know the policy of the Government on mining because it is missing and that is why you hear us giving suggestions such as bringing back the windfall tax.

 When we talk about windfall tax, we are coming from a background where we saw the presentation of what it involved. When that was presented …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The House has become extremely loud. I am being distracted from following the debate of the hon. Member on the Floor.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, when the windfall tax was presented to this House, I remember that it was in my first year in the House. It was well-researched. There were figures presented and projections of production and price were made. At that time, the price of copper was about US$ 6,800 and there was a projected revenue of about US$300 to US$400 million, which was even put to a Vote and we all supported it because it was a job well-done. We did that because we saw that this Government was serious at the time.

Mr Chairperson, after the removal of the windfall tax, I get embarrassed by some of the reasons advanced for its removal and I wish to urge the Government to stop embarrassing us as a nation.

Interruptions

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, one of the reasons being given for withdrawing the windfall tax is that the mining houses will fail to do exploration. That is an expression of ignorance because exploration is included in the budget. When their budgets were worked out at a copper price of  US$3,300, exploration was taken into account and that can only be stopped if the price goes below that amount. It is not because we have introduced windfall tax at US$8,000. I find it embarrassing that the Government and the entire hon. Minister can tell the nation that the windfall tax cannot be reintroduced because there will be a failure to do exploration.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Simuusa, you will agree with me that the issue of windfall tax has been debated. Could we have new points coming up.

You may, please, proceed with your debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I am talking about the policy of getting benefits from the mines. If the Government is sincere about the variable profit tax, let it come in the same manner it did when introducing the windfall tax and give a projection of production and price and what we expect from the tax. Maybe, then, we can understand. However, we are, again, caught in the trap of parroting since we do not know what our policy is.

Mr Chairperson, on benefits, I would like to refer to the Zambia Consolidate Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH). The last time I debated, there was a point of order raised on whether I did not know about the creation of the ZCCM-IH. Again, on this one, I am trying hard to know what the policy of this company is. As Zambians, that is our watchdog for the mines and that is where we should be getting the data on the figures from the mines.

Mr Chairperson, at the moment, I have not heard the ZCCM-IH give any dividend to the Government. It has just been declaring losses from the time it was created and so what benefits are we getting from it? I would have expected the ZCCM-IH to have produced a report. However, from 2005, we have bemoaned the lack of a report, and yet this is a company which is supposed to be a direct beneficiary of the mines. This shows that we, as a nation, are not serious and I would like to urge the Government to be clear about what we are doing.

Mr Chairperson, furthermore, I would like us to be innovative. However, listening to the policy statement by the hon. Minister, there is nothing about how we can benefit from our mining companies. I expected to hear ideas such as those that have been floated before since the price of copper fluctuates like the previous speaker, president Milupi, mentioned.

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Simuusa: The prices of copper rise and fall. When the prices drop, you would expect companies such as the ZCCM-IH to suggest the stock piling of copper. We can do this and pay US$3,000 after negotiating with the mines and when the price goes up to US$8000, for example, we can offload it onto the market and get three times more than what we would have paid. That is the innovation I was looking for in the policy statement, but it is not there.

Mr Chairperson, we had asked the Government to let the ZCCM-IH increase shareholdings to, maybe, up to 50 per cent in some of the mining companies so that, per adventure, we can get more benefits. However, to date, the Government has not increased shareholding or invested in the mining companies. At the Lumwana Mine, the Government owns 1.28 per cent shareholding and I am shocked by this because we sit here and say our policy on mining is to derive maximum benefits for the Zambian people. This indicates that we have miserably failed in this area. We should change drastically and it must be soon.

Mr Chairperson, before I end, I want to refer to Chile because this is a country we need to use as a benchmark although the performance, as regards mining, is worlds apart compared to our country. Chile’s gross domestic product (GDP) is about US$14,000 and it is a medium-income country. It is positioned at thirty-something in the world. At independence, its GDP was at US$2,000, but has since made a lot of progress.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia has retrogressed because, at independence, the GDP was about US$1,500, but it is now at US$1,000. As a country, we have dropped from the world position of sixty-nine to the bottom twenty among slightly over 200 countries. It is a shame on us. I gave an example of Chile because I want us to learn from it.

Interruptions

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, looking at the recent mine accident in Chile, what have we learnt from that? As a country, it looks like we did not learn anything. The question we should ask ourselves is: If those miners where trapped in a mine here in Zambia, would they have been rescued? The answer is no. We would have had dead miners on our hands.

Interruptions

Mr Simuusa: In the same vein, the hon. Minister talked about ten fatalities in 2010. This is totally unacceptable because we should be talking about no fatal accidents …

Interruptions

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, this is reflected in the budget that we have allocated K3,943, 434, 291 billion which is about US$100,000 to the Mines Safety Department. This is somebody’s petty cash as it has been already mentioned. If we are serious about safety, let us increase that Vote. We cannot do anything with US$100,000. Therefore, our seriousness about safety should be reflected in the allocation to this department.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I wanted to give an example of those miners we saw being rescued on television, as they were coming out from underground one by one, wearing shades and being welcomed by the Head of State. Those miners were heroes and were highly respected.

Mr Chairperson, in Zambia, we do not respect miners because if a miner walks into an office, a secretary would chase him out saying you are dirty, ifiko, go out. That is the way we treat miners here.

Mr Chairperson, if we want to be a developed nation, we have to change our attitude. These days, if you ask a child what he/she wants to become after he/she leaves school, he/she would tell you, I want to become a lawyer or an accountant or I want to pursue Association of Chartered Certified Accountants (ACCA). This is because we have glorified lawyers and accountants in this country. They are the ones who drive posh vehicles and get billions after a few minutes of consultation. As a result, you will never hear our children, after they leave school, say that they want to become miners or mechanics or engineers or welders. It is all because, in this country, we have put things backwards. There is no way we are going to become a middle-income nation like Chile as long as that attitude continues.

Mr Chairperson, I can bet you, if you ask a child in Chile what he/she wants to become after he/she leaves school, the/she will tell you, “I want to become a miner and support the nation.” This is because they still remember how those miners came out from underground as heroes and superstars with the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) and Cable News Network (CNN) beaming their rescue. They had all the respect and are highly paid but, in this nation, we have put things backwards. As long as that attitude is not changed, I can assure you, this middle-income status we are talking about is a pipedream. We cannot and will not achieve it.

Mr Chairperson, in learning lessons from our benchmarking partner and other people, let us learn them well. This nation is going backwards. We are retrogressing and it is not helping us.

Mr Chairperson, as Chairman of Mines for the Patriotic Front (PF), …

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: …  I want to say that in revealing our policy for mining, we are going to show you how it is done because I have seen that you have run out of ideas. The Zambians are crying and saying, as a Government, you have failed. As a Government, can you give us your ideas and tell us what you want to do? You have failed to tell us. I have been sitting quietly and listening to your debates, but I have not heard anything concrete you want to do. Therefore, I challenge the Government to tell us what they want to do. Let us not be political or defend ourselves for nothing. Tell us what you are going to do and how are you going to derive that benefit. It is simple. I repeat, let us not boast about production which is not ours. That is totally embarrassing.

Mr Chairperson, I will repeat, it is like that mouse and elephant …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We do not repeat in this House.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I emphasise, it is like that mouse and elephant that crossed the bridge and when that bridge shook, the one who made noise was the mouse who said look, how we shook the bridge and the elephant was just quiet. In this case, we are the mouse. Let us be quiet because we are the mouse and let the giants talk because they are the ones who are shaking the bridge. Let us not boast about production which is not ours, unless this Government can say, clearly, how they are deriving benefit from this production, but they are failing to tell us .

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Major Chizhyuka.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: Imwe ba Major, support us for today.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving an opportunity to the humble people of Namwala to say something on this topic that is purely on mining, despite there being no mines in Namwala. However, I would also like to state that I do not need to come from a mining area to talk about the mines. My task is to provide leadership at the national level and in this House. Regarding how we should approach this topic, I would say that it should be approached from the leadership perspective.

Mr Chairperson, Mr Edward Shamutete, one of the best Chief Executives in the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM), did not come from a mining area, but Namwala on the Kafue Flats. Hon. Emmanuel Hachipuka, comes from the plateau on the Tonga Plains, but he became the Director of Finance of the biggest giant and, at that time, it was the second largest company in the entire African Continent, which was ZCCM. Hon. Charles Milupi, comes from the bu Lozi Plains …

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … but he became somebody substantial in the mines. Therefore, I want to provide leadership with regard to this topic which is at the centre of the development of this country. In trying to provide leadership, I would like us to, firstly, focus on where we have come from since a year ago. We have come from an era in which the entire American Continent was in depression as a result of the world economic crunch which, in fact, started from there.

Ms Lundwe: Kakoma, listen.

Major Chizhyuka: We have come from an era in which Germany, Britain and Europe, as a whole, downsized because of the world economic crunch. These are the countries where the so-called investors come from. They had little money to invest in Africa and other regions of the world. The Americans, Germans, British and French were not available for Mother Zambia. Therefore, should our Government have sat back, squirm and let its people die? Just think of that miner in Mpatamatu or Roan. He used to have three square meals a day, but because the mine was shut down, those square meals were not available. That miner in Roan used to send his child to school and had the option of sending his child to the best school, but the money to do that was not available because the mine was shut down. The mine is shut, there is no employment and, therefore, the family does not have money. That miner’s mother, the woman who kept the miner for nine months in the womb needed to go to the hospital. The miner in Luanshya, in Roan, Mpatamatu, was not able to take his mother to the hospital because there was a world economic crunch.

Mr Mwenya: Akulanda pa ng’ombe.

Major Chizhyuka: However, Mr Chairperson, the Zambian Government saw the situation which was obtaining in the world. The American Energy Bill, President Obama’s Energy Bill, was being financed by Chinese money at the time of the world economic crunch. The Energy Bill for the United States of America was being financed by Chinese money. Who are we …

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: We are talking about the mine which is the heart.

… to fail to go to the Chinese and ask for investment so that the mines can be reactivated? Indeed, you can see what has happened to the Luanshya, Mugoto and Munali Nickel mines that have come to fruition. Admittedly, the salaries may not be the best.

I keep telling hon. Members in here that I come from the Kafue Flats. In this area, we deal with projects in cattle that have what is called a gestation period. I have heard some of my colleagues here asking how cattle rearing is done. Those who want to join me must be prepared for a minimum of five-year gestation period in cattle rearing.

Mr Munkombwe: Tell them it is ten years.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Thank you. It is ten years.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, is it possible that Konkola Deep Mine, which is now sinking a US$1 billion shaft, this year, can start giving the most astronomical salaries to workers? This company is making a huge investment in this country, this year, …

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: … by sinking a US$1 billion shaft.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, this is how these guys screamed (pointed at Hon. PF Members) in the 1970s. The PF policy, which the hon. Member for Nchanga was talking about, is based on nationalisation.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: We have been through the route of nationalisation …

Mr Simuusa: On appoint of order, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka: … and we have even spelled out the problems of nationalisation in the Budget.

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

It is Mr Simuusa who has raised a point of order.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member, …

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Laughter

Mr Simuusa: … whom we are not sure which party he belongs to, in order to talk about a policy he has no idea about and misquote it?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson:  Major Chizhyuka may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I have laid bare the PF policy on mines on television. Anybody can go and see this documentary in which we read the specific segment that deals with mines.

Mr D. Mwila: Where is that same document?

Major Chizhyuka: If you want, I can lay it on the Table tomorrow because I have the PF policy on mines.

Hon. PF Members: Lay it now.

Hon. Government Members: Tomorrow.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I want to proceed to show that the ordinary Zambian has benefited, to some extent, and that the wheel of development is turning on the side of the poor miner in Mpatamatu and Roan.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Major Chizhyuka: This benefit can been seen in Mugoto, at Munali Nickel Mine in Mazabuka, which was closed down, but now has some vibrancy. It may not be the kind of vibrancy you expect, but you must understand that even in mining, there is a gestation period.

Mr Chairperson, I was impressed the other day when somebody told me something interesting about Hon. Dr Machungwa. Somebody went to Hon. Dr Machungwa’s constituency and when this person wanted to hold a meeting, he was asked if they had first spoken to Hon. Dr Machungwa.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: This shows that Hon. Dr Machungwa is a household name in that area …

The Chairperson: Order!

You are veering off the matter on the Floor.

Hon. Government Member: Hammer!

Major Chizhyuka: I was going to deal with the issues of mining in that area. Hon. Dr Machungwa, as he deals with matters regarding the islands, may not need a political party. Major Chizhyuka may have, in fact …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to rise on a very serious point of order. Is this man, who is debating so poorly …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Is this hon. Member of Parliament, who is debating so poorly …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

You will withdraw the words ‘this man’. Hon. Kambwili, you can debate calmly.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw those words. Is this hon. Member of Parliament, who is debating so poorly and without facts, in order to mislead the whole world that in the mining industry, there must be a period of return before you start paying good salaries when Lumwana Mine, which was only opened two years ago, is paying three times more than Luanshya Copper Mines which was only partially closed and was sold as a going concern? Is he in order to mislead the people that you have to have a gestation period before you pay good salaries? I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: The point of order has been debated. May the hon. Member continue.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, you may wish to know that Lumwana Mine is mining at surface. Therefore, the cost of mining is not the same as that of the most expensive mine in Africa, Konkola Deep Mine.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, this is why I was talking about leadership. When leadership is like that (pointed at Mr Kambwili) …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … always screaming, …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: … you are going to go back to the 1970s and mislead this country that nationalisation is the way to go.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Major Chizhyuka: It is this screaming leadership which, as much as possible, we must discourage in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: We need leadership that is informed …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, you have made your point. Can you move on to mining.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I wanted to show …

Mr Munkombwe: That is our product.

Major Chizhyuka: … that it is true there is a level of vibrancy in the mining sector and our people have benefited, whether some people like it or not. Admittedly, this is not enough because the expectations of the people are high. It is because of these expectations that I take Hon. Hachipuka’s debate as my own. Time might have come for the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, Mr. M. B. Mwale, to go back to the drawing board. You should not listen to screamers …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: … but review the preponderance of facts before you to see whether you can hear the cry of the Zambian people by providing appropriate leadership.

Mr Chairperson, when Parliament opened, I was away for about a week half. I specifically went to visit two places. The first place I visited was Polokwane, where the Bafokeng people own 22 per cent of the world’s second largest mine. I had the opportunity to even enter that stadium built by a king, not the Government of South Africa, from an equity participation of the Bafokeng people in the affairs of the second largest platinum mine. These indigenous people were able to build a World Cup status stadium. Interestingly, the British came to play at this stadium during the World Cup.

I also went to Masivingo in Zimbabwe to see how the Zimbabweans, who took over from white farmers, are doing. I will deal with that matter when we deal with issues of lands. However, regarding the Polokwane situation, it is quite clear that our Government must start thinking about equity participation of Zambians in our mineral resources.

Mr Munkombwe: We are listening.

Major Chizhyuka: That is the formula for Zambia to fully benefit from mining. I am glad that the former Director of Finance, Hon. Hachipuka, said that he does not support the calls for the reintroduction of windfall tax. He took this position because he is educated.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: So, according to him, those who are not educated will continue talking about windfall tax.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: They will continue singing, “windfall tax, windfall tax”. The issue …

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Namwala in order to indicate that those who are talking about the reintroduction of windfall tax are not educated? I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: The point of order raised by Hon. D. Mwila reminds Hon. Major Chizhyuka that all the hon. Members here are honourable and debate as it relates to the concerns in their various areas. Therefore, he will avoid statements that will incite others to say, contradict or even shout back at him.

The hon. Member may continue.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I was only quoting a verbatim report from Hon. Hachipuka that said he is educated and, therefore, he does not debate such. So, all I am saying is that let us deal with equity participation. If we find green fields, the best direction to take is equity participation of the Zambian people. Once this is done, the Government will not borrow money from the Chinese to build a stadium and, even elsewhere, to build schools, hospitals and roads. Equity participation is the direction to take. In fact, I can give many examples all over the world to show that equity participation of Zambians will yield that benefit which we want. Can you imagine how much the Mafokeng in South Africa, with only 22.6 per cent shareholding, are able to do? Zambia, which is supposed to be a super power due to the preponderance of mines and oil, should be able to do much better.

So, I thought I should balance this debate and I think I have done justice by balancing it to show that, in fact, in Roan and Mpatamatu, where Hon. Kambwili is Member of Parliament, the people are benefiting.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Copperbelt Province (Mr Mbulakulima): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate.

Sir, firstly, I want to clarify on the state of affairs on the Copperbelt. Some of you might agree with me that when you are outside Zambia and read what is going on, you might think that Zambia is falling apart and that the heavens are falling, but when you come into this country, then you realise that Zambians are going about their usual business. It is as peaceful as usual.

I also want to state that when you listen to some of the debates, you might think the Copperbelt is on fire when there is nothing of that sort. I want to assure the House that the Copperbelt, including Roan in Luanshya, is as cool as a cucumber.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, in line with what Hon. Chizhyuka said, it does not require a miner to debate, but if that is the qualification, let me state that I do qualify as a son of a miner, born and brought up in Mufulira.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima:  If you are not aware, let me state that I can pose a challenge to you because most of you do not even know how the title, ‘Mighty Mufulira Wanderers’ came about. I was there when the team was known as Mufulira Mine United until we played a team from the United Kingdom (UK) called Middlesex Wanderers. That is where we got the word ‘wanderers’ from. We commissioned the Shinde Stadium in the month of April. In Bemba, April means Shinde, and that is how the name came about. I am a Copperbelt person and if you want to know the history of the mines, ask the engineers in the mining sector, and sons and daughters of the miners.

Mr Chairperson, I was a spokesperson for the union and, at the time of my exit, I was a spokesperson for management. I have a balanced view of what it takes to be a unionised member and in management. Some of the issues that we face with our colleagues are because we have never passed in the system.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I am not going to scream and I thank Hon. Chizhyuka for that wonderful message.

Sir, I want to state that the political atmosphere on the Copperbelt actually favours the MMD.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: I want to assure you that we shall not only win in Mpulungu, but also in the cities.

Mr Chairperson, the Opposition has acknowledged that the conditions of service in the mines are not as bad as they are portrayed. They have acknowledged that the least paid employee at KCM and Mopani Copper Mines is about K2.8 million. The worry that they have is that they are lowly paid in Luanshya. However, the least paid employee in Luanshya gets K1.3 million and we are not satisfied with this as a Government. There is room for improvement.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I am not being sarcastic, but when people talk about the mining sector and, indeed, the pay back period, anyone who has done accounts or has been to school will agree that the pay back period for the mining sector is not less than five years. This is the reason you can see that the long-serving mining companies like KCM and Mopani Copper Mines will pay slightly more than the new mines unless somebody has not learnt what we call internal rate of return and net present value (NPV) to really understand this.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: All these must be taken into account. There are very few people who understand such terms. As a result, we shall continue to face such challenges.

It is common knowledge that at the time of closure of the mine in Luanshya, there were only 1,300 employees. Today, there are slightly over 3,000 employees. Therefore, I do not understand how one can come and say that the Government has done nothing unless you do not know what you are doing. One cannot say that it is now agonising when a few months ago, as Hon. Chizhyuka said, the mine was shut down. Today, we have over 3,000 employees walking with their heads high. Therefore, you can only rubbish us when you do not know what you are doing. So, I say that the political atmosphere on the Copperbelt is conducive.

Mr Chairperson, the statistics on the employment levels are real and genuine. Before privatisation, the employment levels had fallen to about 35,000 in the mining sector. Today, we are talking about over 55,000 employees. How can somebody say that the mining sector is shrinking? Let us use the actual statistics. Production has increased from 250,000 to 720,000 tonnes. So, how can somebody trivialise this kind of development? I think it is important, also, to understand issues. You cannot say that we must be ashamed of that production. If, for example, you go to Japan today, you will find that some big industries in Japan are not owned by the indigenous Japanese and if you go to the United States of America today, businesses are not just owned by the Americans. The same prevails in China. Today, the world has become one. So, we should not sit here and believe what is Zambian should be owned by Zambians only. That is not going to happen.

Mr Chairperson, the employment levels have improved and the output has also increased. It is a known fact …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: … that today, as you walk around the Copperbelt, you can see that the state of affairs is not as bad as it was in the 1990s. Life on the Copperbelt has improved. However, because our colleagues want to take over power, they will not acknowledge this. Mr Chairperson, if wishes were horses, all would ride them

Sir, the situation on the Copperbelt has improved tremendously. Yes, there is room for us to improve. You can go to Chililabombwe and look at the Konkola Deep Mining Project (KDMP). You can see that these are serious investments.

Mr Chairperson, I believe that even without us screaming about our achievements, the people of the Copperbelt know what is going on and will not be swayed into believing otherwise because they know that this Government means well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, before I sit down, …

Mr Kambwili: You will continue losing elections.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I would like to talk about windfall tax. However, before I do that, I want to thank Hon. Hachipuka for his debate. That is the way people are supposed to debate. He is very reasonable.

Mr Shawa: Mature!

Mr Mbulakulima: We can learn a lot from such kind of discussions.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, when talking about windfall tax on the Floor of this House, I gave an example of a motorist since of all of us here are motorists. When we engage the gear, the idea is to move forward. It is only a fool that does not disengage after seeing that there is danger in front. This Government has analysed the benefits of removing the type of tax from our tax regime. It believes that going forward in the same gear will bring destruction to the mining sector.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Members who have contributed to debate on the budget for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

Mr Chairperson, may I begin by acknowledging the debate of Hon. Hachipuka which was mature, particularly when he referred to us improving the skills which would help in ascertaining the cost of production of our mines.

May I assure the hon. Member that my counterpart at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has made progress in that direction.

I also acknowledge the debate of Hon. Chizhyuka which informed this House that the way to move forward is not through the introduction of punitive taxes, but by equity participation.

Mr Chairperson, we are in Government and the people on your left would like to come where we are. When you are in a position of governance, you look at things from a bigger picture and not from a narrow view. What do I mean by that?

The computers which we have in our offices give us access to what is obtaining world over. Zambia is part of the global village and through the click of that button, we are able to know the risk areas or the low cost areas where FDI would flow.

Mr Chairperson, in today’s world, FDI will only flow to low risk and low cost areas. As one of the countries which competes for FDI, we have to ensure that we fall in that category. What are the benefits which can come to our country? Taxes are being paid, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister will explain FDI for the consumption of all.

Hon. Government Member: For the sake of the layman.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, for the benefit of those who like to scream, in particular, FDI means foreign direct investment.

Interruptions

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, when people ask us to outline the benefits that come to this country as a result of FDI, I am left to wonder why they cannot see them. Taxes are paid to the Government by these investors, and hence we are able to invest in social services that our people require.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the issues that were raised were cross cutting. There was an issue about pollution. I commend the water utilities on the Copperbelt who quickly moved in to stop the supply of polluted water to the people who live in the areas where the mines are found.

Mr Chairperson, somebody talked about the IMF. I agree that the IMF benefits us a lot. However, the hon. Member failed to appreciate the fact that when mineral royalty tax was introduced at 0.6 percent and corporate tax at 25 per cent, the IMF did not raise any objections.

Mr Chairperson, later the Government raised the mineral royalty tax to 3 per cent and the corporate tax to 30 per cent. The president of my colleague’s party wrote to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, which the hon. Minister laid on the Table, urging us to go back to the development agreements (DAs) whereby the mineral royalty tax would be charged at 0.6 per cent and the corporate tax at 25 per cent.

It is for the Zambian people to judge whether they are getting more benefits from the current system or through the DAs which the leadership of those on the left is urging this Government to adopt again.

Interruptions

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, as regards the people of Luanshya, I would like to remind them that when they had no jobs, somebody who is debating in here so passionately against the Chinese, was debating in a comforting manner. He is able to debate the way he has debated because he has a steady source of income. When the people in Luanshya were out of employment and on the streets, it is this responsible Government which acted swiftly so that they could have their jobs back.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, as I speak, The People of Luanshya can leave their homes with their heads high, knowing that they will be able to provide for their families at the end of the month.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I am at a loss when I see the manner in which some people debate. How can you compare an operation which is under development with another that is mature? You cannot compare Mopani and KCM with Luanshya Copper Mine or Konkola North Mine which is under Vale and ARM.

In operations like Mopani and KCM that have matured, the employees have benefited through annual increments negotiated by the unions. In any case, those operations have revenue streams which Konkola North may not have at the moment. Luanshya is at a lower level, considering that it has not yet developed its production to its full potential.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, as a people, it is best that we have a long-term view of our industry.  We should not aim at instant benefits or gratification which will lead to problems a few years down the line.

I would like to thank Hon. Chizhyuka for reminding this House that only a year ago, our mines where in trouble. He also reminded this House that in the 1970s, when our mines were nationalised, they suffered from lack of capital. I wish Hon. Milupi was here, he would have attested to this fact. I also hope that Hon. Mukanga can still remember how the mines could not find the spare parts for the loaders which were underground. Thank God, through privatisation, the mines are now vibrant. They are back to what they used to be.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I would like to urge this august House to support my ministry’s budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 14/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 14/02 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – Geological Survey – K8,741,460.229).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on why Unit 2, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Geological Mapping of Luapula and Northern provinces has no budget allocation. Furthermore, I would like to find out whether this exercise has been completed to the satisfaction of the hon. Minister.

May I also have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 9, Activity 01 – Preparation of the Structure – K100,000,000.00. Why has this figure been reduced from K200,000,000.0 in 2010? Has the structure already been completed?

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Namulambe): Mr Chairperson, as regards the concern on Unit 2, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Geological Mapping of Luapula and Northern Provinces, there is no provision because there are prudent activities to cover other provinces, hence K717, 300.000.00 has been provided for geological mapping.

With regard to Unit 3, Programme 9, Activity 01 – Preparation of the Structure – K100,000,000, some works have already been done regarding the preparation of the structure and the Articles of Association. So, the provision for 2011 is to complete the structure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: May I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 04 – Revolving Fund for Members of Staff – K300,000,000.00. What is this money meant for? In my understanding, when you have a revolving fund, there is no need to be putting …

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Kambwili, ask your question.

Mr Kambwili: What is this revolving fund to which we keep allocating K300,000,000.00 every year for?

Secondly, may I also have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Construction of Wall Fence – K480, 000,000.00. What type of wall fence is going to be built at the Geological Survey which is going to gobble K480,000,000.00?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairpersons, with regard to Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 04 – Revolving Fund for Members of Staff – K300,000,000.00, this money is paid back by the workers and then given to others who may not have benefited. As a result, it rotates amongst the workers in that department.

Mr Chairperson, in relation to Unit 1, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Construction of Wall Fence – K480, 000,000.00. In case the hon. Member does not know where the Geological Survey Department is, it is along the road that leads to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH).

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: What is the name of the road?

Mr Namulambe: I have forgotten the name of that road.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: It is Nationalist Road.

Mr Namulambe: Yes, it is Nationalist Road. Bear with me, I am not a Lusaka person. So, I do not know the names of some of these roads.

However, it is costly to construct a wall fence because we are trying to protect a lot of equipment that is in the building and, sometimes, we keep gold which some people bring for testing, hence we need to put up a wall fence that is able to inhibit thieves from entering the premises.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 14/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/03 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – Mines Safety Department – K3,943,434,221).

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7 , Activity 01 – Arrears – 2002 – K 50,000,000.00. I would like to find out why we are dismantling arrears which were accrued as far back as 2002 in 2011?

Secondly, may I also have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 8, Activities 01 – Review of Mining Regulations – K50,000,000.00 and 02 – Review of Explosives Act and Regulations – K10,000,000.00. I believe these activities have been funded in the last two years. So, why should we continue funding them? How long are they going to take to be completed?  They are supposed to have been concluded by now.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Arrears – 2002 – K 50,000,000.00. I would like to inform the hon. Member that, sometimes, you may negotiate with the people you owe money, but not pay in that particular year. Therefore, when money is available, you provide for them and clear the debt.

Secondly, as for Unit 3, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Review of Mining Regulations – K50, 000,000.00, day in and day out, people complain about the need for the inclusion of certain aspects to the regulations. So, we consult stakeholders so that we keep updating the regulations to conform to the requirements at that particular time.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 14/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/04 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – Mines Development Department – K4,439,534,405).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 2, Programme 9, Activity 02 – Large Scale Mining Inspections and Monitoring of Operations – K 194, 240,000.00. Last year, K449,760,000.00 was allocated, but this has been reduced. Why should we reduce this amount when we want to enhance safety?

Mr Chairperson, I also seek clarification on Programme 10, Activity 02 – Inspections and Assessment of Mining Sites and Programmes of Operation – K150,880,000. Last year, we had K300 million and this year, we have K150,880,000. Why do we have this reduction when we need our people to be safe?

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Chairperson, the provision will cater for expenses in association with compliance inspections and monitoring of large-scale mining operations. The bulk of the inspections will be carried out by the Mines Safety Department, hence the reduction in the allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: There is also Programme 10, Activity 02 – Inspections and Assessment of Mining Sites and Programmes of Operation.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the provision will be used to purchase fuel and pay subsistence allowances to officers undertaking inspections in small-scale mines. The decrease is due to the increased role of regional offices in carrying out inspections as we have set up regional bureaus like in Mansa.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 14/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 18 – (Judiciary – K189,486,588,990).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to give a policy statement on the 2011 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Judiciary.

Mr Chairperson, as hon. Members of this august House know, the core functions of the Judiciary include the following:

(a) administer justice through resolving disputes between individuals, individual private companies and or between the State and individuals;

(b) interpret the Constitution and the Laws of Zambia;

(c) promote the rule of law and contribute to the maintenance of order in society;

(d) safeguard the Constitution and uphold democratic principles; and

(e) protect human rights of individuals and groups.

Mr Chairperson, the above functions are executed through the existing court infrastructure which includes the Supreme Court at the apex followed by the High Court, Industrial Relations Court, Subordinate Court or Magistrates Court, Small Claims Court and Local Courts.

Mr Chairperson, with the available resources of 2010, the Supreme Court planned to have twelve sessions in Lusaka, Kabwe and Ndola. The High Court planned to have eighty-one sessions, covering all provincial centres and Kitwe. So far, the sessions are on schedule.

Mr Chairperson, in my policy speech for the 2010 Budget, I informed this House that I had officially launched the operations of the Small Claims Court which, at present, is fully operational in Lusaka and Ndola. The House may wish to know that, so far, the Small Claims Court has performed to expectation and assisted to speed up the disposal of cases. The indigent can now litigate their cases without involving any lawyer.

Mr Chairperson, regarding court constructions, the House may wish to know that in 2010, the budgetary allocation to the Judiciary for the construction of local courts was K33 billion. Construction of seventy-four local courts countrywide was initiated. To date, six local courts have been completed and sixty-eight are under construction.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Construction of the local courts will go a long way in bringing justice closer to the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, the construction of Shang’ombo and Mansa Subordinate courts is nearing completion and should be ready by the end of 2010. Construction of Kalomo Subordinate Court started in August, 2010 and should be completed mid-2011.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: You will agree with me that the construction of these courts will greatly enhance and improve accessibility of justice to all people in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, the Judiciary has obtained funding from an organisation called Investment Climate Facility for Africa (ICF) to computerise court operations under the Zambia Justice Information System (ZAJIS) Project. The computerisation project is on course.

Under the contract with ICF, the Judiciary is required to provide 35 per cent counterpart funding towards the project.

Computerisation of court operations will go a long way in improving the case disposal rate and the general case management.

Mr Chairperson, as you may recall, this House passed a Bill to increase the number of Supreme Court Judges from nine to eleven and the High Court Judges from thirty to fifty. These Bills were assented to by His Excellency the President in November, 2009. With the increased number of Judges, the Judiciary plans to place a resident High Court Judge at each provincial headquarters once High Court buildings have been secured and support staff recruited and trained. At present, the Eastern, Luapula, Northern, North-Western and Western provinces have no resident Judges. This contributes to the delays in people accessing justice in the provinces.

Mr Chairperson, the 2011 Budget allocation for the Judiciary will assist in the completion of construction of courtrooms initiated in 2010. Rehabilitation of a number of courts and construction of new ones will also be embarked on in 2011. Most importantly, the Judiciary will continue with the dispensation of its core function, namely adjudication.

I now urge this august House to support the 2011 Judiciary Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure of K189,486,588,988.00.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important Vote, the Judiciary.

Sir, I note that the budget for the Judiciary has been increased form K162,752,648,014 billion in 2010 to K189,486,588,990 billion in 2011, an increase of about 15 per cent. This is important. In fact, it would have even been better, resources allowing, if the increase was more.

Sir, it must be remembered that the Judiciary is the mirror of society and final resort for every person to obtain justice and fairness in our society. Society looks to members of the Judiciary to be exemplary in their conduct, especially in the handling of cases to deliver justice and fairness. However, for this to happen, Sir, certain conditions must be present in society. Firstly, society must ensure that members of the Judiciary are left to handle cases without interference from any quarter.

Mr Shawa: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Unfortunately, in our country, what we are seeing lately is a situation where, if a court ruling does not please certain sections of society, then the Judiciary is condemned, but only if it pleases certain people will it be alright. However, we must remember that the Judiciary is there to deliver a ruling that is fair and not meant to please or appease anybody. We have to ensure that the Judiciary is left to do its work independently.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Commenting on cases that are in courts should not be there at all.

Mr Chairperson, the laws that we pass in this House must be fair and crafted in such a manner that they protect the rights and freedoms of citizens.

Hon. Members, we must understand that the State is more powerful than any individual. In this House, we cannot make laws that make it difficult or impossible for any individual to defend himself/herself against a powerful institution such as the State, for instance.

For example, if we pass laws in this House that presume individuals guilty and then we put them on our books and ask such individuals to prove their innocence, then we are departing from the principles of law.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Such laws jeopardise citizens and put them at risk. In this regard, I commend the Government …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: … for removing Article 37 from the Anti-Corruption Act …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: … because such provisions disadvantage individuals.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: They are repugnant to modern law.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

That law has already been passed. Make your points in some other way, but that has already past and it is history.

Dr Machungwa: Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members must realise that if the State wants to fix an individual, and it has laws that do not protect the rights of individuals, it can easily do that.

Mr Mukanga: Did they fix you over the K2 billion?

Dr Machungwa: There is nothing the Judiciary can do if we, in this House, have come up with laws which make it impossible for individuals to defend themselves in a fair manner. If the laws are bad, they are bad. Then it is incumbent upon all of us in this House to ensure that the laws that we pass protect individuals fairly.

Mr Mukanga: Point of order! Nga ilya K2 billion?

Dr Machungwa: Sir, for those who are new in this House or those who have very short memories, let me give a clear example of how well-intentioned laws could be abused against individuals.

In the 1980s and 1990s, …

Mr Mukanga: Landeni ba mudala!

Mr Kambwili: Ba mudala, do not go there!

Dr Machungwa: … it was noted in this country that motor vehicle thefts were rampant.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: What we also noted was that those who were involved …

The Deputy Chairperson: Dr Machungwa, I hope you will relate that to the Judiciary.

Dr Machungwa: Yes, Sir. I am coming to that.

Mr Kambwili: But bamudala!

Mr Mukanga: Bamudala, you are a doctor!

Dr Machungwa: Sir, what we noted was that those who were involved in these thefts, continued to be involved in more thefts even as they were appearing before the courts of law. Therefore, to try and deal with that issue so that the Judges or the Judiciary could provide justice, it was resolved, in this House, that we pass a law that said that those involved in motor vehicle thefts could not be bailed out. What this meant was that when one went to court, the law said there was no bail. Although that law was well intentioned, it was being abused. If you had a falling-out with the system, you were simply slapped with a charge for motor vehicle theft and, therefore, you would not get bail and simply put behind bars. This used to happen.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, at one time, even a former Head of State was threatened to be charged for motor vehicle theft. Now, if a former Head of State could be threatened, what about the rest of us out there?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member knows the rules and regulations of this House very well. We are debating the Judiciary and certainly, those laws would have been better argued earlier when we were debating another Bill. We are dealing with the Judiciary and so, the hon. Member should confine himself to that.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, the point I am trying to make is that if a law is bad, it does not give the Judiciary any chance to make the right decision and the individual who will be appearing in the courts of law will not get justice. I wish to stress the point that this House has a responsibility to ensure that justice is carried out by the Judiciary by passing just laws that defend justice and fairness. If we lose sight of that, we are going nowhere, but just making it difficult for all.

Mr Chairperson, what is surprising is that when we try to ensure that the Judiciary dispenses justice by passing just laws in this House, others get a cluster of people to come and protest against that. These are people who do not even understand the implications of such …

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Mr Mukanga: Bamudala, kabili eko mwaya uko.

Dr Machungwa: … decisions because, if they are locked up and they go to court, action will be taken because that is the law we will have passed. Therefore, I commend the Judiciary for increasing the number of …

Mr Mukanga: Bamudala, lekeni ifya bu nyamulenge ifyo.

Dr Machungwa: … Judges of the Supreme Court …

Mr Mukanga: Ni bu Jonas Savimbi ubo, bamudala.

Dr Machungwa: … and we expect that …

Mr Kambwili: Ba leader baba  nyamulenge in the PF.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: … the dispensation of justice is going to be speeded up. We have heard from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice that he has increased the number of sessions of the Supreme Court and the High Court. With those conditions, we can expect that justice will be dispensed more speedily.

Mr Chairperson, for us to ensure that the Judiciary performs, we have to work to ensure that our judicial system and laws protect all the citizens of this country. If you are driving a defective vehicle and you end up in the ditch, there is very little you can do because the vehicle is defective. We have a responsibility, here, to ensure that the vehicle the Judiciary is driving, which are the laws they administer, are fair and defend the rights of the people of Zambia.

Mr Kambwili: Ikaleni ba mudala fyafula.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, in supporting this very important Vote, we also look forward to the Judiciary working independently. It is surprising that even some officers of the court, for example, are in the forefront of condemning the courts. I do not know what the professional bodies are doing about that because there are certain regulations that say that officers of the court have certain ethics that they must follow.

Mr Kambwili: Mwalanda sana ikaleni.

Mr Mukanga: Lekeni balande.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, if the courts decide that, they know what to do. They can appeal if that is allowed under the Constitution, but to be shouting …

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: … on the top of their voices like some political something or non-governmental organisations (NGO) and saying that this Judge or that particular magistrate is not performing, is simply not acceptable. In fact, that is contempt.

Hon. Government Member: Yes.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, as hon. Members who enact these laws, I think we expect to follow the laws of the country. With the separation of powers, we shall make the law and let those who are capable of interpreting it, in this case the Judiciary, interpret it. What we owe the people of Zambia is to make sure that we make just laws so that those who interpret them can continue to interpret them justly.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, in supporting this Vote, I wish to state that, from the outset, I am pleased that there is an increase of K16 billion in the allocation to the Judiciary. Although, in my view, I thought we should have given it a little more because of what it does. It is the third wing of the arms of Government. There is the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary. As we call for its independence, we need to give it more money. We do not want the Judiciary to be begging money from the Executive whenever it wants to do certain things.

Mr Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice has gone round saying how we are doing with the building of various local courts and subordinate courts. I am pleased that there is one being built in Kalomo finally …

Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … because it was actually operating from a storeroom. I still think that we need to build more local courts because even the ones we are talking about are in a deplorable state. Most of the local courts that were built immediately after or before independence have had their roofs blown off. The roof of the Choma Local Court was blown off and it is now deserted. The same applies to Ufwenuka Local Court.

Mr Matongo: Hamaundu.

Mr Muntanga: Also Hamaundu Local Court. As a result, cases are referred to Chitembo Local Court. Therefore, the Judiciary needs more money to build more local courts.

Mr Chairperson, I will be happy if, after building the court in Kalomo, we go further and build some courts in Siachitema and Sipatunyama. The two courtrooms are too small and are in a bad state. So, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_______

The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 5th November, 2010.