Debates- Wednesday, 24th November, 2010

Printer Friendly and PDF


Wednesday, 24th November, 2010

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to inform this august House and the nation at large on the changes the Government is making in the extension of business hours.

Mr Speaker, over the years, Zambia has gone through the process of transformation with significant changes being privatisation and economic liberalisation policies, which have resulted in massive investments and an increase in the number of sectors, including mining, tourism and manufacturing services. During this period, Zambia has seen the development of numerous shopping malls and trading activities which have resulted in increased jobs, increased household income and subsequently, increase in the shopping power.

Mr Speaker, one of the tenets of the free market economy is that players, both consumers and producers alike, have an opportunity to make a wide range of choices on how to conduct their businesses.

Traditionally, in Zambia, trading hours have been between 0800 hours and 1700 hours during the week and 0800 hours to midday on Saturdays and Sundays, and on public holidays, the shops remained closed. This was seen as a challenge for the workers in the formal sector because the shops were closing at the time of knocking off from work. However, with the introduction of the market economy, most shops and shopping malls have been operating outside these shopping hours.

Mr Speaker, the Government realised the need to provide for the extension of business hours and, in 2005, the Government, through the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, carried out a countrywide consultation regarding security concerns, public transport consideration and the labour laws.

Some of findings of the consultations were as follows:

(a) the tourism sector would benefit by allowing tourists to access the shops at hours convenient to them;

(b) the larger retail establishments would allow the consumers a wider freedom of choice to shop;

(c) the deregulation of business hours would remove the restrictions on trade and personal freedom.

Mr Speaker, this consultation arose from the need to change the Zambian business trading hours to suit the development of the private sector and market-oriented economy such as ours. Various business houses had made presentations on the need to extend business hours, particularly from the retail business houses.

Mr Speaker, since then, numerous consultative meetings have been held among the line ministries, namely, the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, and the Ministry of Justice to discuss this subject matter. Arising from the aforesaid consultations, it was evidently clear that there was a need to extend the business hours from the current scenario to give room to the retail businesses and the consumers to do business. 

Mr Speaker, there is no doubt that in Zambia, today, there has been a change in our social and work patterns such as the increasing number of duo income households, more flexible and longer working hours and an increased number of single-headed households. The above factors influence how and when people are likely to go shopping.

Mr Speaker, the Government is aware that the proposed extension of business hours will have an effect on the statutory working hours, security system to guarantee safety of workers and the conditions of service such as transportation of workers. The Government, through its line ministries of Home Affairs, Labour and Social Security and Justice, covered these concerns as they relate to particular statutes during the consultation process.

Mr Speaker, in a number of countries, laws have been liberalised to allow freedom of choice in shopping and doing business for retail outlets. In view of the findings, it has become necessary that the current business hours, as provided for by the Trades and Licensing Act, be extended from the obtaining 0800 hours to 1700 hours to 0800 hours to 2200 hours.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, there is no doubt that the aforementioned extension will increase economic activity in Zambia. One sure way of increasing the velocity of money is to extend the shopping hours so that the exchange of goods and services for money can be encouraged for longer periods, particularly for the working category of population who are busy during working hours.

Following the Cabinet decision to repeal the Trades and Licensing Act, my ministry was adequately advised to anchor the Statutory Instrument to extend the shopping hours to the Local Government Act Cap 281 of the Laws of Zambia which allows my ministry to make regulations regarding matters falling within the areas of jurisdiction of a council.

I hereby announce that the Statutory Instrument No. 94 of 2010 has been issued under my ministry, providing for the extension of business hours from 0800 hours to 2200 hours in  all council areas in the Republic of Zambia whether city, municipal or district.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, while this is good news, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how we will cushion staff from being overworked, everyday, including on public holidays.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, that is a very important question.

Sir, through our consultations, it is clear that the players in the industry, that is, the employers, workers, our trade unions and the Ministry of Labour and Social Security  will guide with regard to the hours that each worker has to put in. This means that with the extension of shopping hours, there must be an adjustment in the number of hours each employee works which must be equated to the remunerations. Therefore, in this arrangement, clearly, the worker will be paid according to the number of hours that the worker has put in.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister for this welcome statement. I have a concern because I would like to know whether the Government has considered permitting public transporters such as minibus drivers to also operate way after 2200 hours in order to assist these workers who will be knocking off at 2200 hours to get to their homes. In the same vein, since the Trade and Licensing Act include bars and taverns, I would like to find out whether there is any regulation that has been adjusted, in the statement that the hon. Minister has given, to determine what time bars and taverns will close.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, firstly, with regard to transport, we are aware that this was one of the considerations. Currently, one needs only to go to the major bus stations to find that public service vehicles continue to operate beyond that time. This will mean legalisation of what has already been going on. Minibuses and other forms of transport have been operating in the townships way beyond 2000 hours. With this statutory instrument, it means an increased business volume because all the sectors involved have been prepared to beef up security for these extended activities of shopping and transportation.

Sir, bars are covered under the liquor licensing. Actually, a liquor licence stipulates the number of hours that the bars should be operational. Currently, one category is for the bars to operate up to 2200 hours. There is also a licence for night clubs. Therefore, this statutory instrument is not impacting negatively on already existing hours of operation with regard to bars and other outlets.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, I would like to have a clarification from the hon. Minister on whether the time indicated should also be applied during weekends, that is,  Saturdays and Sundays.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the extension of business hours excludes Sundays, but Saturdays are included. One of the reasons for the extension has been to take into account our many workers who work on Saturdays, but did not have an opportunity to do there shopping once they knocked off from work. This is what has been taken that into account. Sunday, on the other hand, should be a day of rest. Depending on the flexibility of various shopping retail outlets, as we have seen, many of them operate up to midday to allow the majority of workers to rest and attend to other chores.

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Mr Speaker, I like this idea because it is a very good idea.

Sir, I would like the hon. Minister to assure the nation that security measures will be put in place so that the public are not attacked by thieves.

 Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, those who are a bit older may recall that, many years ago, filling stations used to close at 18000 hours or even 1700 hours. Progressively, with development in our economic activities and the alertness and preparedness of our security services, what is prevailing now seems to be the norm. Therefore, with a similar extension, clearly, we are ready to cater for the security of the shoppers and employers just as we changed the time for closing filling stations from 1800 hours to operating 2400 hours a day. I would like to assure the hon. Member that, as a Government, we are ready for this development.

 Sir, let me add that security is not a matter that should be left only to uniformed men and women. The participation of the citizens is very important and I am sure they will rise to the occasion in order to benefit from this arrangement.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Speaker, whilst appreciating the new directives, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what precautions have been put in place, especially that our workers work late, but their wages are meagre and most of them will not afford to use public transport, despite working at night. What steps has the ministry put in place to ensure that the police stop the shishita because most of them will be arriving quite late and the police have been arresting people for loitering at night?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I alluded to the fact that to arrive at the decision to extend the business hours, wide consultations were undertaken. As far as I am aware, there is no state of emergency that should stop people from walking beyond 1800 hours. Clearly, this will be a bargaining chip for employees that, as part of their working conditions, this issue be looked into. I am sure that the hon. Member’s concern is security, which has been taken into account, following the consultations that we had.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, this is a very good decision. However, I would like to find out whether marketeers will also be allowed to sell and market their produce up to 2200 hours, especially that there are new modern markets and some stay in the markets themselves. May the hon. Minister, please, confirm this?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, we have stated that this covers retail shopping business hours. It is business that goes on in the markets. Therefore, that covers all activities relating to business, be it in the market, shops in markets, big shops or small stores that are in various locations.

 I thank your, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, the current situation obtaining at Shoprite concerning its workers is a very good example of what is happening in the country. The Ministry of Labour and Social Security is struggling to ensure that Shoprite pays its workers the overtime allowances that are due to them.

Sir, what assurance is the hon. Minister giving to the nation that the people who work on Sundays and public holidays will be paid overtime allowances instead of waiting for industrial unrest?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, there are various roles that each one of us plays. After having consulted the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, he advised that an extension of business hours connotes the renegotiation of conditions of service. I am sure that each employer who was in the forefront of requesting for this extension of business hours will certainly take the implications of this development into account. One strong arm that negotiates for workers’ rights are the unions and I am sure they will do that, if that has not started already.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned, in his statement, that we have a liberalised economy. Why is it not possible to open the shops from 0800 to 2400 hours so that every other person works out the system as it fits them? Why not extend the business hours to twenty-four hours?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, when Zambia gets to the level of business activities like that of New York City, I do not see why this cannot happen. However, for now, it is very clear that we are stretching our luck too far.

I thank you, Sir.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!




176. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how much manganese was produced by manganese mining institutions from 2009 to July, 2010;

(b) how much had been exported; and

(c) how much money was realised by the Government as revenue from the exports.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, a total of 161,827 tonnes of manganese was produced from 2009 to July 2010 as follows:

 Period No. of Tonnes

2009   113,752 
2010 (up to July, 2010)    48,075
Total  161,827

A total of 100,285 tonnes of manganese was exported during the period under review broken down as follows:

Period No. of Tonnes

2009  98,349 
2010 (up to July, 2010) 1,936 
Total 100,285

A total of K1,006,819,368 was collected in mineral royalty during the period under review.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, it is clear that manganese business is becoming significant in Zambia. What deliberate policy has the Government put in place to improve the production, add value to the product and, indeed, collect more revenue?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, manganese production is proving to be a good business apart from scrap metal dealing.


Mr M. B. Mwale: As a Government, in trying to improve on the production, we are encouraging the local producers to partner with those who may have capital, considering that they may be deficient in that area.

Secondly, in ensuring that there is value addition, we are encouraging the producers to set up smelters. As you may be aware, there are now two smelters in Kabwe and a trial smelting process in Chambishi.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is engaged in revenue collection and the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) is vigorously working out measures to ensure that it enhances revenue collection.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how these figures were computed because manganese has always been processed in South Africa. Similarly, this is what is happening in Luapula. The ore is taken to South Africa for processing. How did you come up with these figures?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, it is quite clear that the hon. Member is not aware that there are two smelters in the country, in Kabwe and Chambishi, which are treating the locally-produced manganese. However, we acknowledge that there is some export of raw manganese to South Africa and other nations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota, SC. (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, according to the hon. Minister’s answer, in 2009, there was roughly about 98,000 tonnes of manganese exported and in 2010 up to July, only 1,000 tonnes were exported. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why there is this drastic drop in export tonnage between 2009 and 2010. I have already taken into consideration the fact that the 2010 figures are for only half the year. However, even if we had to double that 1,000 tonnes, it would still be 2,000 tonnes only.

Dr Scott: It is peanuts!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member will recall that there was a decline in metal prices. At one stage, manganese production was not lucrative. However, now that the metal price is alright, we expect an improvement by the end of the year.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, manganese is highly prevalent in the country and I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what he is doing to safeguard the people who live in the areas where manganese is mined. I am asking because in Kabwe East, in Kapiri Mposhi Constituency, people have been displaced in order to mine the manganese that is deposited there. What is he doing to protect the Zambians who live on that land?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member for that concern. However, he should know that mining of manganese is primarily being carried out by Zambians, though there may be foreign companies that may also be mining it. The hon. Member should be fully aware that there are laws that govern the relocation of individuals.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to know what measures have been put in place to ensure that the people who are exporting manganese, since it is exported in raw form, do not export it with other minerals, thereby making the nation lose revenue.

Mr M.B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, that is an issue that the ministry is vigorously working on to ensure that we tie a few notes. Currently, there is a requirement that there be export permits for any manganese to be exported. This is a way of ensuring that the products being exported are what are indicated on the export permit. In any case, we are working closely with the ZRA.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, K1.6 billion, as revenue, is a lot of money. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how much of this money has been ploughed back into the communities where the manganese is mined. I would also like the hon. Minister to outline the developments that they have come up with due to the mining of manganese.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I excuse the hon. Member, considering that he does not know that there is Control 99 in which all the resources of the Government are pooled. Through these resources, there is social service delivery such as hospitals and schools. So, there is no distinction of where a ngwee comes from.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister what measures have been put in place with regard to rehabilitating the environment after the manganese has been mined.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, this is why we need the support of the area hon. Members of Parliament in places wherever the mining activities are taking place, considering that most of the people involved in this activity are small-scale miners. For large-scale operators, there is a requirement that they contribute to the Environmental Protection Fund which is administered by my ministry.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}


177. Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe) asked the Minister of Education when science laboratories would be constructed at Kaminzekenzeke School in Mufumbwe Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the ministry has advertised tenders for the construction of a laboratory at Kamizenkezeke High School. The works for this construction shall commence in the first quarter of 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kamondo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that all the schools in Mufumbwe, which were upgraded to high school status, have no laboratories? Is he also aware that during the campaigns in Mufumbwe, His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice sympathised with the Kamizenkezeke pupils who have to travel 244 km to Mufumbwe to write examinations? I would like to know why he has delayed to construct this laboratory which is important.

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister of Education should pay particular attention to the question on Kamizenkezeke High School.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, that is the reason we have already advertised for tenders because we are in the process of building a laboratory there.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, while in the process of building laboratories, is the ministry thinking of providing mobile ones, considering the distance that the pupils have to cover?


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, our policy is to provide quality education to all pupils. We provide mobile laboratories in basic schools because many of them do not have laboratories. In the case of Kamizenkezeke High School, we have found it prudent to provide a permanent laboratory so that we provide quality education to pupils.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, is it the policy of the Government to continue making promises that they clearly cannot fulfil, especially during elections?

The Minister of Education (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, we are aware that, as a nation, we are facing a lot of challenges in the education sector because we are still a developing country. That is why, on this side of the House, we are working very hard to ensure that we respond to the needs of the people.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: What are the people asking for? They are asking for schools which we are constructing, and doubling of enrolment which is what we are doing. When we were in Mufumbwe and, particularly, during the visit of His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, it was only reasonable that the people look up to him as a leader and request for something they wanted and we responded immediately and accordingly. That is why we have tendered the construction of the laboratory.

Mr Speaker, even if there is no laboratory there, there should be Science classes because of the provision of a mobile laboratory. However, it is surprising that the Opposition say they do not want mobile laboratories and clinics but, when it suits them, they turn round and say they want mobile laboratories and clinics.


Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, it is time we became consistent and recognised that we, on this side of the House, take the needs of the people in all sectors of the economy very seriously.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, for a laboratory to operate properly, electricity is necessary. In the absence of electricity, considering that Kaminzekenzeke is very far from Kasempa, …


Mr Chazangwe: … what mechanism will the ministry use to provide power?


Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, since we will be constructing a laboratory there, we are aware that we have to provide the power to ensure that the laboratory is fully operational. In the ministry, apart from using electricity provided by the national grid, we also use alternative sources of energy such as generators and solar power.

I thank you, Sir.


178. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of House Affairs:

(a) how many police officers graduated from Kamfinsa Mobile Police Training College in 2010;

(b) how the distribution of these graduate police officers has been, province by province; and

(c) whether basic human rights are part of the police curriculum in police training colleges.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Taima): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that 443 police officers graduated from the School of Public Order Maintenance in Kamfisa. Out of the 443 officers who graduated, thirty were posted to State House, 133 were retained at the Mobile Unit and 280 officers were deployed to all provinces. The Copperbelt and Lusaka provinces received thirty-five police officers each and the rest of the provinces received thirty each.

Mr Speaker, human rights is part of the police curriculum in all training colleges.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The House was not interested in listening to the answer to that question, in view of the loud discussions that were taking place and the loud laughter which was being enjoyed on the Floor of the House. That being the case, I do not know if the hon. Member for Chilubi was interested in the response to his question. Was he? 

The hon. Member for Chilubi.


Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that human rights are part of the curriculum at the training school at Kamfinsa.

Mr Mwenya: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Chisala: May I know why police brutality is so rampant …

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 I told you that they were not interested in the answer to that question to the extent that an hon. Member has even raised a point of order. Instead of listening to your question, the hon. Members seem to be interested in the point of order. I cannot believe the disorder taking place on the Floor of the House.

Nevertheless, a  point of order is raised.


Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, thank you and I apologise to my fellow hon. Member for disturbing his question.

Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Health in order not to inform this House and the nation at large about the challenges the ministry is facing in acquiring implants for patients at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and the country in general? There are patients who have been stranded at the UTH for over six months because implants have not been acquired for them. They are being asked to buy these implants on their own when most of them are very expensive with some costing as much as K6 million. Is the hon. Minister in order to remain silent over this matter? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Nkana has raised a point of order as you have heard for yourselves in a manner which usually diverts the attention of the House from the core business of the House. On the Order Paper are questions which we refer to as Questions for Oral Answer. I do not know if the hon. Members are aware that it is through questions like Question 178 that this House is able to play its important oversight role over the Executive. Surprisingly, the hon. Member for Nkana broke into what was being discussed on the Floor of the House and started talking about implants.


Mr Speaker: Well, perhaps, we have to meet him halfway even though the majority of the House may not be aware what implants are.

Mr Sichilima: Naena teshibe.

Mr Speaker: Maybe, to meet him halfway, I shall leave it to the hon. Minister of Health to come and inform the House at  a time he will have information regarding the shortage of implants. Since the hon. Minister will have to take inventory of what category and number of implants are required as well as where they are required, I think he will need sometime. Considering that we are about to adjourn sine die, I would request the hon. Member for Nkana to remember that point of order when we return.


Hon. Government Member: Adoption.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Chilubi was raising a supplementary question.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I was saying if human rights are part of the curriculum in police training colleges, why is police brutality so rampant in some of the police stations in the country?

Mr Speaker: I will come back to that ruling after the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has answered.

Mr Taima: Mr Speaker, the position is as we have stated. Human rights are part of the curriculum in all our police training colleges. The question that has been raised by the hon. Member shows that he is doubting what I said earlier. Just because someone has been trained in specific subjects does not mean that he or she will not be able to err when it comes to the implementation part. Sadly, some of the officers might be overstepping their limits, but the truth is that we are training these officers in human rights.

A similar concern was raised recently, in fact, through a point of order on the Floor of this House. The point of order had to do with alleged police brutality. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs gave a comprehensive statement to this House regarding police brutality. He even went further to explain what constituted minimum force among other issues. I remember that very well.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I said I would come back later to the ruling that I was making on the Floor of the House. I overheard hon. Members doubting when the House may adjourn sine die. What did the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House say about that subject? Is it on Friday?

Dr Musokotwane: Yes.

Mr Speaker: I was right.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what plans the ministry has for the police officers who overstep their limits as stated to them in their training. We heard that women were being raped and people were getting killed in Garden Compound and that is why the police post in Garden Compound was vandalised. Is the Government thinking of getting money from the benefits of the officers who overstep the law so that it can use that money to reconstruct the police posts that are vandalised by the people when they are angry?

Hon. Government Member: Broken down.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minster of Home Affairs will stay within the bounds of Question No. 178.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, that is clearly a new question.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Are you inciting me to do something in any way?


Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, what measures has the hon. Minister of Home Affairs put in place to ensure that the 443 police officers who graduated are well remunerated and accommodated as a way of motivating them to stay in the service?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, though that follow-up question is out of the parameters of the main question, it is obvious that when we are training people, we also prepare to accommodate and remunerate them when they graduate. We do not do things out of the blues and, hence, the officers we recruited will be accommodated as the system stipulates.

I thank you, Sir.






Clauses, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

APPENDIX 1 – (Section 5)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Appendix 1, on page 13, in paragraph 6, by the deletion of paragraph 6 and the substitution therefor of the following new paragraph:

6. Chapter 72 is amended by the deletion in the customs duty rate column opposite subheadings 7213.10.00, 7213.20.00, 7213.91.00 and 7213.99.00, respectively, of the word ‘free’ and the substitution therefor of the figure ‘25%’.

Amendment agreed to. Appendix amended accordingly.

Appendix 1, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2010

Clauses 1, 2, 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE INCOME TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2010

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendment:

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill

Third Reading on Thursday, 25th November, 2010

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendment:

The Value Added (Amendment) Bill

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill

Third Readings on Thursday, 25th November, 2010



The following Bills were read the third time and passed:

The Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2010

The Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill, 2010




(Consideration resumed)

VOTE 65 – (Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training – K140,568,950,127).

The Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Daka): Mr Chairperson, I wish to continue where I stopped yesterday.

The Strategic Research Fund and the Youth Innovation Fund will be essential in facilitating investments in research and development. The ministry has strengthened, expanded, reorganised and rationalised the funds to target only national priority and emergencies. These funds will also be used to finance joint research with our international partners in line with our national priorities. The key targets will be projects in indigenous knowledge systems, especially in agriculture and health and K2.6 billion has been allocated to these programmes.

The ministry will continue to focus on upgrading research facilities to ensure that they are modernised and meet international standards and also ensure international accreditation of laboratories. K11.2 billion has been allocated to infrastructure and equipment for research institutions.

Outstanding personal emoluments and statutory obligations have continued to be a critical problem in the ministry. The dismantling of debt in scientific institutions will, therefore, remain a priority. K2 billion has been set aside for this programme while science institutions will receive K24.5 billion for their programmes and operations.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, allow me to appeal to all hon. Members of this august House to support the budget estimates for my ministry for it to forge ahead with its programmes for the betterment of mother Zambia and create wealth for it.

Sir, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: Before the hon. Member starts speaking, may I just remind the hon. Members to look at the programme of work for the remaining three days. You will realise that if we do not make haste, we may have to spend Friday night in this House. I just thought I needed to alert you about that so that, as we debate, we take that into account.

Thank you.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, I really appreciate the fact that this ministry is a very important one. In trying to support its Vote, let me state that I understand that science and technology will always be central to wealth creation in any nation, if it is to have meaningful development and also compete with the other nations in the First World.

A well-developed science and technology system will always be dependable and a backbone to the nation. If this system is not developed, it will be very difficult for us, as a nation, to compete with Third World countries. In order for us to do this, we need to create a cadre of human resource which will carry out research and move forward.

Mr Chairperson, after forty-six years of Independence, the country has built institutions which are involved in the study of science such as the University of Zambia (UNZA), Copperbelt University (CBU), Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce, Northern Technical College (NORTEC), Zambia Agriculture Research Institute (ZARI), Tropical Diseases Research Centre (TDRC) and National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR). However, all these institutions, both learning and those that are meant to carry out research, are grossly under funded.

Therefore, Sir, with this kind of funding and the absence of an adequate policy to support the institutes’ focus on science and technology, it will be very difficult to create a consolidated entity to advance technology and science in this nation. I am not aware of enough legislation to support the efforts being made in science and technology. It is for this reason that I urge the hon. Minister to look at the legal framework. What is it that we really want to achieve, as a nation, because we cannot just be talking about science and technology and leave it hanging?

Mr Chairperson, this morning, I tried to check the rating of Zambia, on what is called the Technological Achievement Index (TAI), but it is not among the first seventy countries. This is an index which gives an idea of how much new technology is being created and how it is being used in new and old innovations as well as in human resource. So, we need a cadre of human resource that is able to execute science and technology.

Sir, when I looked at the TAI, I saw countries such as Finland, United States of America and Sweden. These countries were ranked highly because they spend a lot of money on science and technology. If we, as a country, have to better our ranking on this rating, we need to fund science and technology adequately. At the moment, there are about 1,000 engineers and scientists per 1 million people in Zambia. So, in short, there is, at least, one scientist per 1,000 people in Zambia. Of course, that is not a very good rating. The country needs to improve these statistics. If funding is not increased, it will be very difficult for this country to employ engineers and scientists from the universities and colleges who should contribute to development.

Sir, in fact, some of the engineers and scientists who have been recruited have not been retained by the nation. We are very good at recruiting, but when these people are recruited at various institutions such as ZARI and TDRC, they do not continue to work because of poor remuneration. It is for this reason that I ask the hon. Minister to look at the perks that are being given to scientists. They spend a lot of time learning, which is an investment. Since they have invested in education, it is important that they get value for it and not peanuts because then, they cannot be retained. There is a need to understand the three ‘Rs’, which are recruit, retrain and retain. If the three ‘Rs’ are not observed, it will be difficult for scientists to work and contribute to the bottom line of the development of this country.

Sir, the other problem is that very few people are aware of science and technology. They do not even understand what it means, how it contributes to the development of this country and how it affects each and every person. Therefore, I urge the ministry to make some public awareness programmes on this so that people understand what science and technology is all about.

As regards Technical Education Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA), there is a problem in Zambia. About 200,000 students are turned down, every year, and they end up on the streets. Therefore, if 200,000 pupils complete Grade 12 and are unable to get into formal education or universities, they can go to institutes such as skills training centres regardless of who owns them. However, owing to the human immuno virus and acquired immuno deficiency syndrome (HIV/AIDS) pandemic and poverty levels in the country, the students may not continue to learn. It is for this reason that ...


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, can you consult quietly, please. I want to listen even if you are not interested.

The hon. Member for Kantanshi may continue.

Mr Mukanga: … I ask the hon. Minister to see to it that bursaries for youths are provided so that they can continue to learn at the various institutions after they finish Grade 12. The Government, through TEVETA, at one time, used to provide bursaries, but it stopped midway. Thereby, students who were enrolled at these institutions, especially last year, dropped out because they could not afford to continue.

Mr Chairperson, the other problem with regard to the various institutions that are supported by TEVETA is that the authority has been charging economic fees for registration to an extent where most of the institutes have gone under and are no longer operational. I, once again, ask and plead with the hon. Minister to look at this aspect and support the local institutions. The Government must support learning institutions so that they provide proper training to our youths failure to which they will continue to roam the streets.

Sir, in order for us, as a country, to advance in this respect, the Government must provide basic and appropriate infrastructure facilities to enhance increased enrollment at various centres in the country. This way, youths can have access to these institutions without difficulty. The Government should, also, develop appropriate training to meet the future needs of the country. It should analyse what the nation needs. With access to adequate training facilities, young people will contribute to the development of this country.

Mr Chairperson, there is a need to refocus the needs of science and technology and embrace this aspect because this is the only way to change the nation if it has to develop. Scientists without jobs should be re-engaged. We also need to revamp technologies that we had in the past. This country, at one time, used to produce, for example, Tip Top drink, which was a very good innovation, but it has since disappeared. What are we doing about it because this requires support? Therefore, I ask the hon. Minister to look at products such as Tip Top drink and Munkoyo, among others, so that the country moves forward.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chishya (Pambashe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training.

Mr Chairperson, I intend to align myself to the area of science and technology. I will, particularly, focus on issues of policy in relation to the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP) and Vision 2030. I will also say a word on survival skills training. I will be quite brief.

Mr Chairperson, in this regard, allow me to commend the Government for the positive steps it is taking in making sure that science and technology contributes effectively and meaningfully to the development of the country. I particularly praise the Government for taking broad steps in revamping science and technology in such a manner that it is now becoming one of the tools for the development of our country.

Mr Chairperson, in this regard, reference is made to what the hon. Minister talked about regarding rehabilitation and other infrastructure which the ministry is putting in place.  I will, however, try to focus on the review of the science and technology policy to which K40 million has been allocated.

Mr Chairperson, science and technology was first introduced in this House in 1967 when the First Republican President brought the idea of bringing together into one body all the institutions that were involved in science and technology. This body was, at that time, called the National Council for Scientific Research. During that time, a lot of research work was being done under various departments in the country. The research council we had was the Agricultural Research Council which was turned into the National Council for Scientific Research.

Sir, the National Council for Scientific Research had one direction which was to advise the Government on national development issues. That was the aim and it did so.

Mr Chairperson, if you have followed the progress in science and technology in this country, you will notice that things are changing. For instance, the role of the National Council for Scientific Research changed from just being advisory to the Government through a policy that was formulated in 1997 that changed the institutional arrangement. As a result, we have seen other science and technology institutions come into being. There is the Business Centre and others that have also come up.

Since these institutions have come up, what is next? I have heard that they are reviewing the policy once more to focus on issues such as the strategic research and other areas. This is commendable, hon. Minister.

Mr Chairperson, what do we intend to do? In strategic research, where they have put some funds is where we expect to see a lot done in the development of our country.  If we are not careful, this is the time that the country will miss out on the use of the value of science and technology and be misdirected. There are a lot of areas in the country in which we need to apply science and technology for us to develop. As I understand it, the Government is paying attention to this area.

Mr Chairperson, the personnel in science and technology is also one area in which we need a policy that is applicable. We have been training and losing a lot of people in this area.

Mr Chairperson, some people are naturally inquisitive about their surroundings while others just adapt to it. To train a scientist is not just a matter of getting one into an institution to have a degree or a diploma. It is not like that. Others are born scientists while others are trained. Therefore, everybody can be brought on board to contribute. It is not necessary that all scientists belong to these institutions. People who belong to other institutions can be used to partner with those who work in the research institutions.

 Mr Chairperson, the meaning of this is that you have lecturers who work at the UNZA who are carrying out research. They can partner with those who are in the research institutions of the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. There are people in the mines and industry sectors who are interested in conducting research and have the capacity to contribute to science and technology. They can also partner with the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. In this ministry, in the Department of Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training (TEVET), there are lecturers who have the capacity to carry out research who can also partner with those in the research institutions. It is not really necessary that somebody be employed by the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training in order to conduct research. They can just partner with this ministry and carry out the research. I hope that in reviewing the policy, the Ministry will look at this.

Mr Chairperson, as regards skills training, when we debated the Ministry of Education, I talked about the pyramidal system of education. As we eject a lot of pupils at an early stage in the school system, those who are being ejected may not have anywhere to go and may have limited chances of getting back into school. Therefore, we expect the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training to absorb them and give them survival skills.

It means, therefore, that the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training and the TEVET Department must be empowered to absorb those who cannot proceed in our formal educational system so that they can be able to get a skill. If we do that, we shall be reducing the problem of unemployment. It is not only technical education which the ministry is offering, but also entrepreneurship. This means those who graduate are not necessarily employees, but potential employers. They will contribute to reducing the unemployment levels in this country. I hope that the ministry will include that in the policy when it is reviewed.

Sir, I urge this House to support this Ministry’s budget so that those who are ejected from the mainstream education also have a chance to continue with education and, at least, have a skill for their livelihood.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief because I only have two points.

Firstly, I would like to remind the hon. Minister that my constituency hosts about two institutions under his ministry. The first one is the Zambia Air Service Training Institute (ZASTI) and the second is the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR). 

I notice in the Budget that meagre resources have been allocated to these very important institutions.

Sir, firstly, ZASTI has currently over enrolled. If the hon. Minister took a visit there, he would find that two students sleep on one single bed. This is a very important institution.

Secondly, the institution does not have tools for practicals. How can you say you have an institution which teaches people how to fly when they do not even have a plane to use for practicals? They just concentrate on theories, and yet they are going to be pilots. Are they not going to kill people when they get employed as pilots? The Government needs to do something about this very important institution.

NISIR is heavily under funded and the previous speaker articulated the importance of science and technology in national development very well, but the institution is poorly funded. Clearly, I do not think we are paying adequate attention to a sector which can create employment in the country. It is time we attached great importance to science and technology in action and not just paying lip service to it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for affording me the opportunity to contribute on this Vote.

I would like to begin by saying the Vote on science and technology is very important. I know that the hon. Minister is not happy because of the insufficient budget allocation to his ministry.

Hon. Government Members: How do you know?

Mr Syakalima: I know him.


Mr Syakalima: He was once at the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training and has been brought back to the ministry, but found the same problems that he left. These problems have dogged this country in the last twenty years that this Government has been in power.

If the Government wants to understand what science and technology can do to a country very well, it should go to Rwanda, which is near to Zambia, and see how it has been funding science and technology. Very soon, Rwanda will be the hub of ICTs in the whole of Africa because it has put its mind to science and technology.

Mr Shakafuswa: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: However, this Government wants to treat science and technology like a backyard garden where it can plant okra.

Mr Ntundu: Kantemba!

Mr Syakalima: Hon. Colleagues, science and technology, by their nature, are very expensive. You cannot run away from that fact. If the Government thinks it is going to treat science and technology with kid gloves, this nation will lag behind.

The African continent lagged behind during the Industrial Revolution. When the Agrarian Revolution came, we, as a continent, also lagged behind. Why should Zambia lag behind in science and technology? What type of human beings are you?


Mr Syakalima: Let me tell the Government how frustrating it is to lag behind as a nation. Look after those scientists who have remained in the country because many of them have gone for greener pastures. I would like to tell the Government that technological and artistic endeavours do not flourish in a society where people have to struggle for food and shelter. Many scientists do not have shelter. Go to Mount Makulu Research Institute and see how the researchers there are living?

Mr Chairperson, NISIR does not have a maximum number of scientists that is required at the institution. Very few scientists have remained there, but the institution is still under funded. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning did not talk about it when he presented his ministry’s budget apart from the figures that have been indicated in the Yellow Book. This shows that this Government does not consider science and technology as a priority.

I would like to inform this Government that all these developed countries invested in science and technology. The problem with our Government is that it thinks that technology can just happen. It looks at this television on the wall of this House and thinks it just happened. It did not fall from Heaven, but was created by scientists. This electricity that you are enjoying in this House was invented by scientists. Even the tables that are close to your seats were designed by experts in ergonomics. All these things were created by scientists because they think. In case you did not know, the microphones that we are using in this House were invented by scientists. They were able to do that because their governments funded them adequately.

However, this Government has been coming to this House for twenty years, but has not funded science and technology adequately. How many times am I going to remind the Government about this?

Mr Munkombwe: Utanolanga kuli ndime, kolanga ansi!


Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I never wanted to debate the budget on the Ministry of Education and Ministry of Health because I could have said the same things that I have been saying in the last nine years. I just looked at the one who was presenting the Vote on the Ministry of Education when she was reading preeeeeeeeeeeeeee


Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, she was just ‘over speeding’ …


Mr Syakalima: … when she was talking.

However, I would like to point out that scientists emanate from schools. This is why I talk about symbiotic involvement. The hon. Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training is supposed to check on the other ministries such as the Ministry of Education because when children grow up, they will feed into his ministry.

The hon. Minister of Health should know that doctors are scientists. He knows that because he, himself, is a scientist. If there are no proper laboratories in secondary schools, there will be a cadre of scientists who will not match up to the 21st Century.

The Government is boasting about increased production in the mines, but does it think those Chinese just dropped from Heaven and became miners or mining engineers? It is because their country invested in them. If the Government cannot invest in people who can be seen, how can it invest in agriculture when it is known that when a seed is planted, it will, first of all, rot? Why does the Government not want to invest in human beings whom it is able to see? It should start with human beings whom it is able to see.

In the United States of America, it has become a deliberate policy to breed a nursery of scientists. The USA Government adequately funds students who specialise in mathematics, science, physics and chemistry.

Those AK47s that you see, did not just fall from heaven. They were created through science and technology. Please, understand this.

Mr Ntundu: Quality!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, if the Government cannot invest in science and technology, we will lag behind, as a nation. At a time Rwanda has overtaken the entire Africa in ICTs, this Government wants us to cope by telling us that this is the internet and this is that. The Government of Rwanda has funded its ICT system adequately. Please, understand this. Do not ask me where the money will come from because you are refusing to get the money from the mines in order to fund science and technology adequately. Did we not tell you?

Let me tell this Government that it will not wish away this windfall tax issue because if it had collected money from the mines, it was going to be possible for us to fund the science and technology, education and health sectors adequately.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, the Government has increased the budget for the Ministry of Health in nominal terms and it thinks that we do not know this. The 2011 Budget for the Ministry of Health is only 18.6 per cent while that of 2010 was 19.9 per cent of the National Budget. This time, it has actually reduced in terms of the gross domestic product (GDP). Who is the Government telling that the 2011 Budget has been increased by 15 per cent? Yes, in nominal terms, it has been increased, but not as it relates to the GDP, it has been reduced. That is science.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I am now talking about science apart from education. I am showing the Government how these ministries are interrelated.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: If the Government does not understand that and wants to make science and technology an isolated ministry, it is in for a rude shock. It will be wasting this country’s time. The Government should start realising this.


Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I would like to show the Government how important this ministry is. Had we been adequately funding our science and technology sector, we would not have been quarrelling about employing expatriates because we would have just been telling them that we have the state-of-the-art technology as well. Our own scientists would have been able to operate those machineries which we are being told can only be operated by expatriates. Yes, they will continue telling this to the Government because it has not pumped in a lot of resources in order to breed its own cadre of engineers and scientists.

Therefore, if the Government continues to treat this ministry with less importance by budgeting for the sake of it and allocating it amounts anyhow, I want to tell it that you do not just fit in figures for research because one must first know what is being researched. At the moment, the Government is busy installing scanners at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). Do they think those machines just dropped from somewhere? No, it is because scientists were thinking. The scientist is told to keep thinking for twenty days or thirty days. He is told not to think about how little his mealie-meal is. If there are twenty scientists, they will make sure that they select those who are innovative. They will be told that there is something that they want them to create which is spectacular. Those that do so are the countries we have heard are developed now. They invested in education and science and technology later. So, for you, it is mumbo-jumbo of figures in the Budget for the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. You allocate K13 billion for this, K2 billion for that and K1 billion for something else and the hon. Minister says he is coming to present a Budget in Parliament for us to approve. I totally disagree with you. You must start by thinking. You are paid to think and not just to put figures in this Yellow Book. Very soon, the Chairperson will start going through individual items and nothing will be done to the budget regardless of whoever disagrees and agrees with them. What would we have achieved?


Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, we are now tired of such things. Your behaviour is like a person who feeds a crocodile on meat and when the meat finishes, the crocodile will eat him/her.  

Mr Chairperson, these people should not behave as if they are refugees who are hoping to be repatriated one day. This is your country and you are not going anywhere. I can tell you that next year, you shall be repatriated from the Government. We have said this several times and I am now fed up. This is the last time I am mentioning this to you.


Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, they are busy thinking of how they will fictitiously win the elections. You must be busy thinking of how to provide for the people so that you leave behind a good name. Nkoozwa kakutuba kutegwa nkoya kakutuba.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, can you translate that.

Mr Syakalima: Sir, it means that if it is good where you are coming from, then it must be good even where you are going. If you leave bad things where you are coming from, wherever you will go, it shall be bad for you. We shall pray for you so that everything is good for you even as you leave.

I have mentioned this because I am so annoyed with you. I am so frustrated by the way you are treating the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. This is the only ministry that can help society. What are the generations to come going to say about you? At least, Hon. Munkombwe and Hon. Mwaanga played their part in their generation. Some of the hon. Members like Hon. M. B.  Mwale and others have nothing to report about. This generation is doomed and you, the people in your forties and fifties, have done literally nothing, and yet you were given an opportunity to do something. Hon. Munkombwe can say that he fought for Independence, but what about you?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: You keep adding to the poverty levels, and yet you were given a chance to be in Government and fight poverty. You should have contributed to national development, but now, you are contributing in reverse gear. This includes the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. You are the one who changed the windfall tax. It shall go with you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: You are the same people who advised the Late President Mwanawasa, SC. to bring the windfall tax and then, again, you say it is a bad tax. Why are you trying to do this to us? What have we done to you?

Mr Chairperson, I want to state that if I had my way, I would have thrown this budget out so that you bring more resources to this ministry. Therefore, I do not support this on the basis of what it contains. If it had normal figures, I could have supported it.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Chairperson, I just want to emphasise …

Mr Kambwili: Order, tunweko tea!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.


Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training is actually a very important ministry, but it has not been treated that way by this Government. At the moment, it acts as a Cinderella ministry where people are thrown to when they are out of favour. I am happy that the veteran, Hon. Daka, who understands the work of science and technology, has been taken back to the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Technology.

Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, I am wondering if what you are saying is proper. Can any Government ministry be a Cinderella and resting ground for those who are out of favour?


The Deputy Chairperson: Do you have documentary evidence to prove that?


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

If not, I would ask the hon. Member to simply debate and avoid making statements that undermine ministries.


Mr Shakafuswa: When you talk, do not lower your voice. Talk as a man.


Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, there are countries that have forged ahead simply by embracing science and technology. There was a time when this country did not have enough foreign exchange. The Government had to go to the National Council for Scientific Research in the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training, in particular to ask if it could grow the input substitution and how to go about it. That is how we did away with the importation of coca cola and started producing tiptop. That brand could have done well on the market if the Government had really put in money to promote the local industry.

Sir, during the Kanyama Disaster, the First Republican President asked scientists to research on what nutrients or foods could be given to the people of Kanyama while they were waiting for the Ministry of Health to come up with remedies. Today, Speciality Foods Zambia Limited is producing nutritious foods and this is as a result of science and technology. 

Mr Chairperson, I do not know what Dr Chishya is doing here. Dr Chishya is a pioneer of the Amarula drink. The idea of making that drink came from him and a certain scientist from Botswana. At that time, I was not in contact with him. Otherwise, I could have told him how to patent it. Dr Chishya is the one who came up with the formula for the Maheu drink. This shows that, our scientists, with a little boost, can perform a lot of wonders.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training has been given K140 billion while the Ministry of Education was allocated K3.7 trillion. We need to reconsider our priorities. We spend colossal sums of taxpayers’ money to churn out graduates for white collar jobs in this country. Students of science and technology are very useful.

Mr Chairperson, we are short of bricklayers and local electricians in this country. People are asking why the Chinese are bringing in their own bricklayers. It is because we do not have trained bricklayers. A Chinese bricklayer lays 300 bricks a day whilst a Zambian bricklayer lays fifty. If someone is working on a deadline, they will definitely go for bricklayers who lay 300 bricks a day. For instance, if the hon. Minister of Works and Supply wants a hospital built within a certain period, you cannot complain that the Chinese are using their countrymen to lay bricks. We should not even complain that there are Chinese working in a smelter in Luanshya Mine. We should blame ourselves and our policies.

Mr Chairperson, artisans who were trained by the colonial Government are not there any more. We should ask ourselves where we have gone wrong. Nations are not built by rhetoric. You cannot praise yourselves every time you work on a single road. Nations are built by investing in science and technology. India and China are built on home-grown industries. Their jewelry is not designed by major industries. It is designed by people who have been trained in science and technology and these people have created huge industries.

In Zambia, we import simple things such as electrical plugs. We import sockets from Britain, and yet we have a lot of plastic material going to waste. Products made out of plastic material can be recycled to make these products. Hon. Daka should ask his scientists how to come up with such products. We are importing a lot of products which we do not have to. 

Mr Chairperson, the copper plates, here, at Parliament Buildings were not made in Zambia. We had to take our copper to Japan to make copper sheets. I am talking about forty-six years after Independence. We need to think about what we are doing wrong. We should not think of the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training as a backyard garden kind of ministry. We should start thinking of meeting these challenges. We were told schools in Kalabo, Milenge and Isoka would be built. We should not only look at these areas. We should build schools in every district and constituency because this will change the way things are at the moment.

Mr Chairperson, one of the drivers of today’s economy is the construction industry. If, therefore, every constituency had a technical college for bricklayers and electricians, there would be plenty of jobs for people and they would not have to go begging on the streets because this industry is growing. Why should we bring in expatriate bricklayers when we have such an important ministry? You must allocate more money to this ministry. This ministry should be on a par with the Ministry of Education in terms of the budget. Even the curricula for these two ministries should go hand-in-hand.

Mr Chairperson, big companies are resisting to pay tax and this Government seems to be agreeing with them. Hon. Daka came up with a very good idea before he was moved from this ministry. Pupils who are studying carpentry cannot fail to make desks which fellow pupils in primary or secondary schools can sit on. Each district with such schools must be given an order to make desks. They will have practical experience and the money will be revenue for the expansion of the institutions.

Mr Chairperson, today, we are complaining about pilots having to come from South Africa to fly our President. What else do you expect? The Zambia Air Services Training Institute (ZASTI) has no lecturers and aeroplanes.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Hon. Masebo, I hope that in your constituency, you are not using witchcraft to fly people around.


Mr Sichamba: Confirm.

Mrs Masebo: No.

Mr Shakafuswa: This shows lack of political will and policy direction.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Iwe, ichongo!

Ms Cifire: You were once here.

Mr Shakafuswa: I do not want to answer you.

Mr Chairperson, today, we are importing fertiliser at a very high cost. All we need to do is tell our scientists that we need to manufacture our own fertiliser. We have phosphate deposits in Petauke and Keembe. The Di-Ammonium Phosphate (DAP) is the biggest non-chemical material used in the manufacturing of fertiliser and it is available in this country.

I know that the hon. Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training is action-oriented. He must find out the effect of chemical fertiliser on the water tables. We are importing a lot of chemical fertilisers, at the moment, and we do not even know the effect it has on our people. Find out what is happening to the water table because of these chemicals. In the long run, we shall be drinking contaminated water. As a result of applying chemical fertilisers to our crops, the nitrates are going to our soils. The hon. Minister should also find out the effects of nitrates in the human body through the water we are drinking. Only then can we come up with substitutes.

Mozambique has come up with a substitute called green fuel made from cassava and the residue is being used as fertiliser. My bululus from Kaoma in the Western Province grow a lot of cassava. They do not even know what to do with it. We may not be able to use the green fuel made from cassava, but we can export it. There is a huge demand for it in Europe which can be satisfied. This way, we will be creating employment for our people.

 The Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training is not a Cinderella ministry, but the backbone of this country. I know that the hon. Minister has the zeal and connections to negotiate for this country’s future. Forget about all the other ministries. The Ministry of Agriculture and C-operatives has a big budget, and yet it is the one importing poison into the country. I must reiterate that the effect of chemical fertiliser has to be analysed. The future of this country lies in the hands of the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. 

I know that you have K140 billion at your ministry, and yet you are not able to do anything with.  I know that you have scientists who are able to think and have the best brains. Therefore, you should use them. They should advise you on the policy direction regarding the genetically modified organisms (GMOs).

Whilst other countries are embracing GMOs, we are saying no to them. What should we do? I know that there has been some research that you have conducted about GMOs, but I still think that you should go back to the drawing board regarding this matter.

Sir, I know that we have a supplementary budget for fertiliser since we budgeted for K100 billion, and yet we have spent over a trillion. Similarly, we have also spent some money on the purchase of maize. Therefore, you should go and lobby Cabinet to come up with another supplementary budget regarding the purchase of maize which this House will approve. It will be wise for you to go and ask for K1 trillion to carry out some research for the future of this country and this House is going to support you. We will laugh at those who will not support it and say that they are just stooges.

 Mr Chairperson, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mr Daka: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all hon. Members who debated on this Vote.

Sir, I will start with Hon. Yamfya Mukanga who spoke about the three ‘Rs’, recruit, retrain, and retain. The most important point is to involve the private sector from the beginning. Training is not only for the Government alone. The Government has twenty-seven institutions. Therefore, we feel that when we add three more in Kalabo, Isoka and Milengi, there will be much more access to training institutions in all the seventy-two districts in Zambia.

There is a training institution in each province. You would find that our traditional rulers or local administration are not able to find school leavers to go to these colleges. Most of the students who go to colleges like the one in Solwezi come from far fetched areas. Therefore, I would like to appeal to our people to utilise these colleges because the Ministry of Science, Technology and vocational training has a policy of zero entropy which means that regardless of where you come from, we will give you training so that you can find a livelihood in society.

 Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: The ministry is doing a lot of work in that area. Even if you stopped school in Grade 7, there is a career that you can pick up in any of our institutions.

Sir, we have gone further to augment the efforts of UNZA by making sure that we have a qualification framework which will have a prerequisite for anyone graduating from any of our colleges to enter UNZA.

Mr Chairperson, we feel that institutions such as Luanshya Trades Training Institute, which may be failing in a particular area, should be augmented to form a polytechnic college in engineering and many other fields. We appreciate the concerns that have been raised by hon. Members who mean well.

Dr Chishya is one of the pioneers of the work of the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Policy. As I have always said, scientists become more mature as they grow older and bring up more ideas. Therefore, even when he is in this Parliament, he should be able to assist the Government to make sure that, as its reviews its policies, he is there to add his knowledge to what we are doing.

Sir, Hon. Masebo said that ZASTI has overenrolled. Yes, it is true that we have overenrolled by twenty-five students. This is the reason we have embarked on infrastructure development at that institution. With the allocation that has been put in this year’s budget, we will make sure that all the important areas are looked at. It is not true that ZASTI has no airplanes. In fact, as I am talking now, the principal is in Zimbabwe to pick up an engine for one aircraft to make sure that it starts flying again.

It does not make any economic sense to let an aircraft remain in a hangar. An aircraft which needed attention crash-landed with a student. The truth of the matter is that we have not been inactive. If anything, we have been active. What caused the accident of that aircraft are just technical errors and we thank God that the student survived. We also want to make sure that the seven aircraft that we have at ZASTI are serviced very soon and recruit our own pilots. 

Sir, it is not correct to say that Zambia is bringing in pilots from South Africa.  I think that those were for dry lease purposes. At one time, Zambia had ninety-eight pilots. If you go to Dubai and all over the world, you would find names such as Captain Mbilika, Morris Chimbelu and many more who are trained as captains and are working as pilots. Alick Sakala is a captain who has been training people how to fly a Boeing 747 for a long time now. The truth of the matter is that we are talking to various institutions, including the Zambia Air Force (ZAF), which is on the board of ZASTI, so that it can assist in the training of our pilots. Really, we appreciate the concerns that have been raised regarding the training offered to pilots and we want to say that, as a Government, we are doing everything possible to normalise the situation.

Sir, Hon. Shakafuswa talked about a programme which was started, but later abandoned, by the ministry. It is true that we have an order from the Ministry of Education for the manufacturing of school desks from Mwinilunga Trades Training Institute, Kitwe Training Trades Institute, the Lusaka Business and Technical College and many others. The most important point is to ensure that the private sector that takes on the people who graduate or who come from these colleges add value by ensuring that they even have an input in the syllabus that we use in these colleges. They should also help these institutions to provide refresher courses such that they retain these students after they graduate.

Sir, I do not agree with my good friend, Hon. Shakafuswa, who was an hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training that this is a ‘Cinderella ministry’.


Mr Daka: I do not think so. I think that the ministry deals with cross-cutting issues. For example, if you look at the Cancer Diseases Centre of UTH, you will notice that it is a product of the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training through the International Atomic Energy Agency. Therefore, there are so many examples that we can give, today, that have brought about many developments in this country.

Sir, if you think that you have started having gray hair, it is important that you mix with professors at the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. We have also embarked on a training programme where we are going to provide about 150 scholarships at Master’s degree level and almost fifty scholarships at PhD level.

Really, the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training removes cobwebs from your brain when you think you are old and have not been able to learn anything serious. You can go in any of its institutions and pick up any career in which you require training.

Sir, in a nutshell, I would like to thank all hon. Members who have debated this Vote. I also hope that the concerns raised can be tabled before the private sector so that it can assist us in providing training programmes.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

 Hon. Members:  Hear, hear! 

Vote 65/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 65/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 65/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 65/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 65/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68 ─ (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources ─ K172,541,094,124).

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to present the policy statement for the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources in support of the 2011 Budget Estimates.

Sir, as the House may be aware, my ministry encompasses three distinct, but mutually reinforcing sectors. Zambia’s tourism sector is largely dependent on the vast wildlife resources whose habitat is provided by trees which form part of the extensive forest estate, all within a relatively unspoilt environment.

The tourism sector’s potential, as the economic lifeline of our country, will only be realised with concerted effort.  The growth of the tourism sector will not only contribute to economic growth, but greatly impact the poverty levels, especially in rural areas.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: However, for this to happen, there is a need for focused development of all elements that make up our unique tourism product, ranging from natural resources and habitat protection, enhanced marketing of our tourism product to the opening up of new areas through infrastructure development.

Mr Chairperson, the total 2011 budget estimation for my ministry is K172.5 billion out of which personal emoluments (PEs) and related expenditures account for K10.4 billion whilst non-PEs account for K162.1 billion, representing 15 per cent and 22.9 per cent increases  respectively.

Sir, in keeping with the Government’s overall developmental agenda of poverty reduction and employment creation, my ministry has ensured that the allocation of resources for 2011 reflects the priority placed on programmes with the greatest impact on the national economy and contribution towards the improvement of livelihoods of the citizens of Zambia. To achieve meaningful progress, my ministry has allocated resources to areas that will build on the efforts started in the past few years by placing emphasis on tourism promotion and marketing, tourism infrastructure development, reforestation as well as afforestation and mainstreaming of environmental issues in strategic economic sectors.

Mr Chairperson, allow me, at this juncture, to present my statement according to sectors beginning with tourism.

The Tourism Sector

In 2011, the tourism sector will focus on tourism promotion and marketing with the view of placing Zambia on the tourism world map. The Government will ensure closer collaboration with the private sector as well as a greater marketing presence in targeted tourism markets.

Sir, Zambia’s tourism industry has traditionally been dependent on international tourists, thus making it vulnerable to external shocks. In view of this, my ministry will continue to explore ways of diversifying and broadening its tourism product base in order to enhance its competitiveness even at regional level. In addition, my ministry will relaunch the ‘Visit Zambia Campaign’ focussing on international, regional and domestic markets to enhance the flow of tourists to and within our nation. The process of rebranding Zambia as a preferred tourist destination will be finalised in 2011. A sum of K12.799 billion has been earmarked for the development of tourism products as well as tourism promotion and marketing.

Mr Chairperson, the Government policy on tourism is to have a Government-led and private sector-driven tourism sector. The Government is committed to providing an enabling environment which will help to enhance the operations of the private sector. To this end, the Government will continue developing infrastructure in the Northern Circuit in order to accelerate the attraction of public and private sector investments. The Government will, also, continue to develop the Kafue National Park, the Lusaka National Park, the greater Livingstone area, including the rehabilitation of the heritage sites and museums. The Government has, therefore, set aside K7.8 billion in the 2011 Budget for the development of the core activities of tourism-related infrastructure.

Environment and Natural Resources Management

Sir, Zambia’s economy depends on exports of primary commodities from the country’s vast natural resource base. The country’s economic advancement will, therefore, depend on how well the natural resources are managed.

The sectors’ contribution to the Vision 2030 will be to ensure that development is not at the expense of the environment and its natural resources. In this regard, the strategy will be to ensure that environment and natural resource considerations are adequately mainstreamed in other key economic and social sector programmes as well as the plans under the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP). In addition, the legal framework for environmental management, currently awaiting enactment, has integrated environmental planning tools such as strategic environmental assessments (SEA) to ensure that the negative impacts of the developmental programmes are mitigated at feasibility stages.

Mr Chairperson, climate change is a significant development challenge not only globally, but also in Zambia. This august House will agree with me that the current extremes and challenges from climate variability, recently manifested through floods and droughts in the country, will be experienced for decades to come. Although we have little influence over the direct causes of climate change, we can contribute towards the reduction of its impacts by focusing on how to respond and adapt to the crisis.

Sir, in this regard, the ministry is in the process of finalising the preparation of a comprehensive National Climate Change Response Strategy (NCCRS) that will guide the nation on how to respond to the challenge of climate change. The strategy will spell out the legal, institutional and policy framework for climate change, including the mitigation and adaptation programmes that the country needs to undertake. The NCCRS is expected to be finalised and adopted by early 2011.

Mr Chairperson, it is important for the country to implement both mitigation and adaptation measures so as to address the impacts of climate change in order to lessen its potential to aggravate the poverty situation in the country. My ministry, through programmes such as the United Nations Reduction of Emission from Degradation and Deforestation (UN-REDD) is preparing itself to benefit from international initiatives such as carbon trading and the clean development mechanism.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to provide highlights to the House on some additional core environmental programmes planned for 2011. My ministry intends to strengthen the implementation of the Lake Tanganyika Integrated Management Project (LTNP) whose main objective is to effectively manage and conserve the bio-diversity of Lake Tanganyika and its basin. Through this project, local communities will receive financial support from the programme so as to support alternative income-generating activities to improve their quality of life.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will, in 2011, commence the disbursement of funds from the Interim Environmental Fund to support environment and natural resources interventions countrywide. My ministry has made significant progress in ensuring integration of environmental issues into the sector by identifying and engaging six strategic target sectors of the economy.

Mr Chairperson, a total of K45 billion has been provided, in the 2011 Budget, towards capitalising the fund to support environmental projects, mainstreaming environment into other sectors and capacity strengthening.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry recognises the important role that forests play in sustainable socio-economic development. Forests are important sources of timber and domestic energy. They provide important ecosystem services that contribute to the reduction of green house gases from the atmosphere, that cause global warming, and create opportunities for sustainable economic development.

Mr Chairperson, forests cover about 60 per cent of the total land area of the country and are a feature of the Zambian rural landscape, providing tangible communal benefits. Hence, they are an integral part of our natural heritage. According to the Central Statistical Office (CSO), it is estimated that forestry contributes 5.2 per cent to the GDP. In addition, the CSO estimates that 1.1 million people are informally and formally employed by the forestry sector. However, the forestry sector is threatened with a high level of deforestation which now stands at between 250,000 and 300,000 hectares per year.

Mr Chairperson, the drivers of deforestation and forest degradation have been identified and these include unsustainable agriculture, illegal logging for timber, charcoal production and late fires. In addressing deforestation and forest degradation, my ministry will require more support and participation of hon. Members of this House, local communities, civil society organisations and the private sector in promoting sustainable forest management.

Mr Chairperson, in order to align the forest policy and the legal framework with the changing socio-economic landscape and address the emerging forestry issues, one of the main activities in the forestry sector will be the actualisation of the Revised National Forestry Policy of 1998. The revised policy is expected to provide a platform for the commencement and amendment of the Forests Act No. 7, 1999.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will continue with reforestation and afforestation programmes with an emphasis on countrywide forest plantation expansion programmes. To this effect, a total of K2.6 billion has been allocated, in the 2011 Budget, for the forest plantation expansion programme. In order to inculcate a tree planting culture in our people, my ministry will provide 500 tree seedlings to each Parliamentarian for planting in all the 150 constituencies of the country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: This, Sir, should, indeed, help change the culture of our people. I wish to inform the House that, on the Copperbelt, large-scale commercial replanting  by the Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) is progressing well and the company will plant about 2000 hectares of exotic tree species in the 2010/2011 planting season. The Government is also encouraging the private sector to participate through establishment of commercial plantations to enhance Zambia’s capacity to meet the local demand for timber products.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude my remarks, I wish to reiterate that our economy depends on the exploitation of our natural resources. Therefore, resources need to be properly managed to ensure sustainable economic development. The programmes contained in the 2011 Budget are aimed at ensuring that the natural resources are sustainably utilised.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to comment on the functions of the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ).

Mr Chairperson, we are all aware that, as the mines open countrywide, our environment is under attack. Therefore, it is imperative that the ECZ lives up to its expectations. In our midst, there are mines which are producing uranium and when I say that the ECZ has no capacity to understand the issues of this product, I mean just that.

Mr Chairperson, through your Committee, I had the opportunity to travel with the officials from the ECZ and they admitted to not having the capacity. That is why when I look at the budget, I feel more funds should have been given to the ECZ in order to help them build capacity. If we do not take measures to build capacity in the ECZ, the consequences arising from the numerous mines that are opening throughout the country will be bad for this country. I am saying bearing in mind on what has happened to Mufulira Town, particularly in my constituency.

Mr Chairperson, in my constituency, you can hardly grow anything. I, sometimes, wonder – and I am not a proud person to be associated with the damage that has happened in Mufulira. As it is, I have been bringing issues of Mufulira, particularly those affecting Kankoyo, to this House, but nothing has been done.

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Mr Chanda: Mr Chairperson, your Committee on Economic Affairs visited Kankoyo and it was sad that none of the hon. Members of Parliament from Mufulira were invited to accompany it. Your Committee members can attest to what I am saying. Owing to the mining activities in Mufulira, houses have cracked to an extent that one does not need to go outside to greet somebody there. They just need to stretch their hands through the cracks and say, “Mwashibuka shani?”

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

What does that mean?

Mr Chanda: Good morning, how are you.

Hon. Members: Awe!


Mr D. Mwila: Akulanda, mudala.

Mr Chanda: This is exactly what has happened in Mufulira. Sadly enough, I am repeating what I said on the Floor of this House that most of houses under the Ministry of Home Affairs, in Butondo Township, are badly cracked. You can go there and see for yourselves. Nothing has been done about that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Cry, mudala!

Mr Chanda: I am not allowed to cry. So, maybe, I should mourn.

Hon. Government Member: There is no mourning in this House.

Mr Chanda: Mr Chairperson, as Parliamentarians and a nation, we need to be concerned about these issues. This is because what has happened in Mufulira will, very shortly, happen in Lumwana. My colleague, in Nchanga, should watch out because there is a smelter there. What has happened, in Mufulira, if they are not careful, will start happening in Nchanga as well.

Mr Chairperson, I have a smallholding in Chambishi and, I think, very shortly, we will be in problems because the pollution that is coming from the mines is so enormous that I do not know what will happen in future. Again, nothing grows in those areas. This is where the ECZ is supposed to come in.

Mr Chairperson, I am not trying to veer off debating the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources and, instead, go to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, but the issues of environment are crosscutting. Under the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, there is a department which is supposed to monitor the sulphur dioxide that is released into the atmosphere. I wonder if it has the equipment to monitor these fumes. This is because each time I ask for the figures, the ECZ and the department, which is under Hon. M. B. Mwale’s ministry, do not seem to speak the same language, and yet these figures are supposed to be monitored on daily a basis in order to protect our environment.

Mr Chairperson, a lot has been said about the planting of trees. Thank you, hon. Minister, for saying you will give so many seedlings or seeds to each hon. Member of Parliament, but my case is a special one. I recall, hon. Minister, that you promised, on the Floor of this House, that, come December, you and I would go to the constituency and start planting trees.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: Question!


Hon. Opposition Member: Be careful, hon. Minister. Ulula!


Mr Chanda: I am a very friendly person.


Mr Kambwili: Niexperience alelanda uyu, wachabe kubanakashi.

Mr Chanda: Mr Chairperson, my constituency needs particular attention because it is like a baby and that is why I am inviting the hon. Minister to plant these trees with me. My constituency does not need the attention that will be given generally.


Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, are the male hon. Members in this House in order to make running commentaries the time the hon. Member, who is debating, talked about planting trees with the female hon. Minister? Are they in order to set their minds wandering and dreaming about things that are not there?


Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, are they in order, considering that she is an hon. Minister, who has to work and, so, she can go with anybody to plant trees?


The Deputy Chairperson: That point of order reminds the hon. Member debating to stick to the subject or he will be misunderstood.

May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. Opposition Member: Ulula timvele.

Mr Chanda: Mr Chairperson, thank you. Sometimes, when you debate, people feel jealous …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Chanda: … and they start imagining things which are not there.

Mr Chairperson, I was talking about Kankoyo receiving particular attention in as far as the tree planting exercise is concerned because whatever is now growing there or whatever has been growing there is only lunsonga. I have not seen it in Lusaka, and it is a nuisance to the environment. However, this is what we have allowed in Kankoyo. I believe the hon. Minister has not forgotten about the programme that I asked about.

Mr Chairperson, let me move to the issue of …


Mr Chanda: What are you talking about?

… the hotel industry and tourism. It is common knowledge that we have a lot of institutions training people in this industry, who are not capable of churning out quality trained graduates. Hence, at the moment, we have a cook coming from one of these institutions who cannot even bake a loaf of bread.

Hon. Government Members: Where?

Mr Chanda: We have institutions in the hospitality industry, in our country, who train people who do not even know how to make a bed.

Laughter {mospagebreak}

Mr Chanda: Mr Chairperson, I am saying so because I am a member of your Committee on Energy, Environment and Tourism and we toured some of these institutions. I think it is high time that some of these institutions were closed because parents are paying a lot of money, they are being exploited and, at the end of the day, their children are not employed because they are just given mere certificates without any knowledge.

Mr Chairperson, unless we seriously look at our training facilities, the development of the tourism industry will remain a pipedream. This is because whoever is supposed to work in this industry will be under qualified. Until the ministry employs inspectors to look at some of the facilities being used as hotels, in my view, they will remain brothels. It is a shame. Wherever one goes, they will find lodges or houses turned into lodges. I think there is disorganisation in this industry. We need to put things right.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Chairperson, even if we say the private sector should be able to participate, there should be order in this industry. Things should not just be done anyhow. No, it is not right. Let us put things in their right perspective.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to conclude by saying that …


Mr Chanda: What is wrong with you?

… the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, in my view, needs more funding in order for it to look at the two issues I have talked about.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I going to be very brief, unlike the hon. Member for Kankoyo who said that he would be brief, but ended up exhausting all the time that he was allocated.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about issues that I have always talked about. We are all aware that the airports where our tourist attractions are found are not in good condition because of inadequate funding to this ministry. This ministry needs a lot of money to be able to advertise all the tourist destinations in Zambia. At the moment, there are no tourism advertisements by this ministry because of very poor funding.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to still regard Livingstone as Zambia’s tourist capital. I know that we need to develop the Northern Tourism Circuit but, as we do this, we should not forget to continue developing Livingstone because we still need it. Livingstone is where tourism in this country started from and still remains our tourist. I, therefore, repeat that, as we open up new tourist destinations, we should maintain the old ones such as Livingstone.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister is that of game scouts who are paid by community resource boards (CRBs) are the ones who man game park gates. Most of these people have no uniforms and, therefore, it is difficult to know who is an officer and who is not when one arrives at a game park gate. I know the hon. Minister will say the CRBs are supposed to buy uniforms for them. I understand and agree with that, but can the ministry ensure that the CRBs buy uniforms for these ladies and gentlemen so that we can easily identify them when we reach these gates without asking for their identification cards?

I believe they are doing Government work. Why should the Government not look into the issue of providing them with uniforms? If buying uniforms is the responsibility of the CRBs, the ministry should find ways of working with these boards to ensure that these men and women have uniforms. Even if they are called the CRB workers, they work for the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources or, in other words, the Government. At the moment, it is difficult for me to comply with opening the boot of my car at a roadblock when told by someone who has no proper identification, which includes uniforms.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to debate this Vote. I think I will be quite brief as I only have one issue to put across to the Government.

I would like the hon. Minister to know that I am worried about the availability of land in my constituency and on the Copperbelt as a whole. Copperbelt has a lot of forest land, and yet our people who have lost jobs in the mining industry have nowhere to do their farming activities. There used to be children’s play parks in almost every mining area, such as Section 21 which had the biggest play park. However, all these play parks have now become gardens because all other places that ex-miners want to try and start farming in are said to be forest reserves.

I, however, would like to thank the hon. Minister for accepting to de-gazette Maposa Zone A, B and C, after a lot of persuasion. That is a step in the right direction. I am now worried and appealing to the hon. Minister to resolve the issues surrounding the Chenda Mawenga Muva land.

I was extremely disappointed with one forestry officer who said that if I continued calling for the de-gazetting of forests, forest areas would finish and there would be no jobs for forestry officers. The issue here is not about creating jobs, but making land available for farming. However, I welcome Mr Sichone, who is a former Commissioner of Lands in this ministry, and is now in charge of forestry. I hope he is going to use his vast experience to make sure that a lot of farmland is made available to the Copperbelt dwellers.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, do not announce names of officers who are operating in this ministry. It is not very helpful for them.

You may proceed.

Mr Kambwili: Sorry, Sir.

I hope that the Department of Forestry will act accordingly and make land available for farming activities on the Copperbelt. This Government has been saying that we need to diversify our economy into farming. How do we go into farming without available land for farming? We all know that after the selling of the former Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) houses, miners no longer go to the village after retirement. Their villages are now where they have bought their houses. I would, therefore, suggest that the Government comes up with a deliberate policy that will ensure that every miner who retires or is retrenched is given, at least, ten hectares of land for farming. That will help the people on the Copperbelt to diversify into farming. This is the only issue that I wanted the hon. Minister to take seriously. We need land for agriculture on the Copperbelt.

Let me also just say something about the planting of trees, more especially by ZAFFICO. We have seen that this company has started replanting trees in most of the areas where it has harvested, but that is not enough. At the rate that we are going, in terms of construction in Zambia, we will have a situation where we will not have the pine trees used for timber in the construction industry. Therefore, the Forestry Department needs to open up new areas for planting more trees that will be used for timber in the construction industry.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Chairperson, I promise that I will be very brief. I support this Vote wholeheartedly, but I have a few issues that I want to raise. As you know, my constituency is in an industrial area. There is one particular type of pollution which is not taken care of by the ECZ, which is oil pollution. Most of the garages and big companies in my constituency that repair big engines do not care about the oil pollution they cause. Water mixed with oil is allowed to enter into the main streams.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon. Minister, if it is possible, to ensure that every garage in my area, at least, constructs an oil separator. This is a very simple system which uses gravel to ensure that water is separated from oil and, therefore, the oil does not flow into streams.

Mr Chairperson, there is another issue which I would like to bring to the attention of the Government. It is very difficult to separate the responsibilities of the ECZ from those of councils in terms of pollution control. The amount of garbage which is produced in this country is just too much. Let me give you the figures which I have with me and how much of this garbage is collected.

Mr Chairperson in Ndola where I come from, for instance, the amount of garbage which is produced on a monthly basis is 16,697 tonnes and only 20 per cent of it is collected. The rest is just dumped in the city. Coming to where we are, here, in Lusaka, the amount of garbage which is produced, also, on a monthly basis, is about 25,000 tonnes, and only 37 per cent is collected. The rest is just lying around and in places such as Kabulonga, you will see garbage everywhere. Sometimes, you even wonder whether the ECZ is working or not because they are supposed to caution the people who dump this garbage.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue is the new waste which is now called the e-waste. E-waste is simply the unwanted or obsolete electronic equipment, including cellular phones which are thrown everywhere. Things like cellular phones contain certain metals which, if left unattended to, this country will be in problems. Every year, the world produces 50,000,000 tonnes of e-waste. Unfortunately, some of my colleagues, here, when they go abroad, are given computers so that they can come and dump them in Zambia because they are obsolete and have outlived their lifespan, but they are brought here. This also applies to the donors. The computers which they donate to our schools is another way of dumping them here.

Therefore, I would ask the hon. Minister to put measures in place to ensure that this country does not become a dumping ground for e-waste.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I will also be very brief. Through you, I would like to support the Vote on the Floor and in doing this, I have a few comments to make.

Firstly, and relating to my constituency, is the problem of deforestation. Chongwe Constituency is one of the affected districts in Zambia, considering that we are next to the City of Lusaka where the demand for malasha is very high. I see that the hon. Minister has …

Mr Sikazwe: What is malasha?

Mrs Masebo: You know what malasha is. This is Zambia.

The Deputy Chairperson: Please, use the right word.

Mrs Masebo: I am sorry, Sir. I thought malasha was the right word. Malasha means charcoal.

I was saying that Chongwe is heavily affected by this problem of charcoal burning and I notice that the hon. Minister has made a very important statement here concerning tree planting and, therefore, I would like to commend her for that.

You will recall that recently, when I debated on the Floor of this House, I talked about simple actions that we must take, as a country, which do not need too much money or donors to tell us to do them. I think that action, in itself, is taking a step in the right direction. However, I would like to ask the hon. Minister, since Chongwe is a district that is badly affected, to triple that amount from 500 trees to 1,000 trees so that we can have a massive tree planting exercise in Chongwe District.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister, in the last two years, has been talking about the national climate change response strategy. Only yesterday, I was listening to the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) refer to a report that said, at the moment, the global warming level is at 0.6 degrees Celsius. I think that the world has asked each country to ensure that it does not rise beyond 2 degrees Celsius. However, as you know, even at 0.6 degrees Celsius, we hear of global warming effects such as floods, forest fires and other effects.

Therefore, I would like to inform the hon. Minister that I heard on the BBC that, in fact, we are already late. We should have taken certain measures to ensure that we do not go beyond the 2 degrees Celsius cap that has been set for countries. Therefore, the point is that when is this strategy going to come to Zambia and when are we going to adopt this strategy as Zambia? This is the second year this strategy that they are developing and consulting is being talked about. We have heard that, in fact, in countries such as Zambia where we continuously allow tree cutting and all these other vices which are against preserving the environment, we are already late and it will not be possible for us to get to the 2 degrees Celsius cap.

The other issue is that, in the past, the issue of environment was under a fully fledged ministry. The Government must start ensuring that we have a fully fledged Ministry of Environment because issues of environment have become very important. This budget looks big because most of the money is going to the tourist sector and not to issues of environment. As somebody has already said, the allocation to the environment is not sufficient and the work of the ECZ, it can be seen is really outstretched. It is not all over the country, but only in Lusaka and, maybe, two or three other places in the country. This means that there is a need for capacity building in that institution. Therefore, when you lumber issues of environment with other issues in the ministry, which is already big as it is, and the issues of tourism are equally important, you will see that somehow, that sector is getting a raw deal in the ministry all because there are almost three ministries in one ministry.

Therefore, considering the importance of the environment, as a country, we must start putting more money into that sub-sector. The other point, again, related to my constituency, which I wanted to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister, is that in my constituency, there is an area called Chinkuli, which is next to Kasisi. This is where the sand which is being used for construction here in Lusaka comes from. I know that the river sand comes from the Kafue River, but part of the river sand also comes from Chongwe. However, mainly, the building sand that we use comes from Chongwe Constituency in an area called Chinkuli.

Hon. Minister, if you go there, you will be sad that the whole land has been destroyed, there are big holes and I do not know who is allowing this kind of mining. I know that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development has not given licences to these people and I do not think that the ECZ could authorise that type of mining of building sand. I am appealing to the relevant ministry working with the EZC, which is the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, to do something about this problem. At the moment, this has adversely effected even the school children in that area in that most of the children have left school because they get involved in digging sand which has become lucrative. The road, itself, is being destroyed because the road network in that area is made of building sand itself. As such, people are getting tempted, instead of going right into the bush to mine the sand, to stop by the roadside and dig on the sides of the road. Therefore, the community there is stuck as it does not know what to do.

Mr Chairperson, we have been crying about this issue, for quite sometime now, but it looks like nothing is being done. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister, since I have seen that there is some money for that purpose, to get the ECZ to go to that area and see what can be done.

Lastly, let me talk about the Leopards Hill Carve in Chongwe Constituency. The hon. Member for Katombola, during her debate, talked about Livingstone being a tourist attraction. She also talked about the Northern and Eastern circuits. There is also the Leopards Hill Carve. Can it be considered by the ministry? What is the Government doing to make it a tourist attraction and ensure that the communities living around the Leopards Hill Carve benefit? I know that the Leopards Hill Road is in a bad state and, maybe, that is why people do not go there. Therefore, I urge the Government, through the ministry, to develop this curve because other tourist attractions have been upgraded in this country.

Mrs Masebo: Lastly ...

Hon. Members interjected.

Mrs Masebo: We are here to talk. We are not here to get free sitting allowances.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Lastly, somebody talked about the issue of the capacity of the ECZ.  There is a very serious problem in our country. We all know that new mines are being opened. One of them mines uranium. We all know the dangers of uranium mining because even countries that are already mining uranium have confirmed that they do not have the capacity to protect their people from contamination. Therefore, I would like the ministry responsible to work with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development on the issue of uranium mining. We should ask ourselves whether we have the capacity to mine uranium and ensure that people are not contaminated.

Mr Chairperson, we have heard of pollution in the Kafue River and, sometimes, we have even lacked the necessary political will to deal with this matter. Why? Is it because those people in the mines are giants and have money? Of course, I know that we may not be able to represent our people in an effective way, but the Kafue River has been polluted in the last two to ten years. In fact, it is not the first time we have heard of this problem.

Last time, one of your Committees visited Kankoya in Chingola where one of the hon. Members comes from. It was sad to see that people are not able to grow anything there. The soil of the whole area has turned red. This means the land is no longer fertile because of the sulphur dioxide coming from the mine. There area is polluted. Even the colour of their houses has changed because of the pollution and the Government has allowed that situation to prevail. Do we not have the capacity to evacuate the residents of Kankoya to a new residential area because where they are is a death trap? The problem can be seen with our naked eyes. I think that the functions of the ECZ are very important in as far as the health of the country is concerned. Unless the relevant ministry is supported by ensuring that there are enough resources and the capacity of the ECZ is built, we will all be dead one day.

Hon. Member: We drink bottled water.

Mrs Masebo: Maybe, the bottled water will come from the Kafue River one day and we will all drink it and die. Therefore, I appeal to the Government, through the ministry, to build the capacity of the ECZ in order to protect our lives.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Member: Chilingalinga.

Mr Muntanga: Sichifulo.


Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister does not have to worry. I will not deal with that matter.


Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much.

Mr Chairperson, I am worried about this emerging cancer ...

Mr Hachipuka and Mr Matongo crossed the Floor.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, do not cross the Floor between the hon. Member speaking and the Chair.

The hon. Member for Namwala may continue.

Hon. Members: Matongo.

Hon. Government Members: Stand up.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I fully support this Vote. My concern is the extent to which soil erosion leading to degradation and desertification of our land has become a phenomenal as a result of charcoal production. One of the areas, for example, that has been desertified is Lusitu which is on the way to Siavonga. There are obvious signs of soil degradation and desertification in this area. However, the worry is charcoal which is alien to Mbabala, Macha and Namwala. These days, charcoal bags are found on the roadsides, Hon. Munkombwe. In fact, there are two things which are alien to this area, that is, kachasu and charcoal.

Mr Muntanga: Tu jilijili.

Major Chizhyuka: These things are not associated with our way of life.

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Major Chizhyuka: I agree with you, hon. Member.


Major Chizhyuka: This area is now suffering the lowest rainfall in the entire country and that has come about as a result of the changes on the Kafue Flats associated with the emergence of the Itezhi-tezhi Dam. As a result, this has had a negative effect on the environment. Issues related to this have been discussed in the past. At the moment, the Southern Province has the lowest rainfall in the entire country. This is all in a bid to change nature so that there is electricity. However, instead of improving the situation, more and more trees are cut on a daily basis to produce the black fuel called charcoal.

Sir, I was speaking to Hon. Ntundu a little while ago when I told him that I was going to debate. Hon. Ntundu told me that in the United Kingdom (UK), it is not allowed to cut even a tree which is in the yard. It means that country has realised the value of trees. Now, what pragmatic steps is the ministry taking to deal with this matter?

There was a project for making coal briquettes and there is so much coal at Nkandabwe and Maamba. Has Cabinet, at some point, discussed the production of coal briquettes? In other words, the price of a bag of coal briquettes will be equal to the price of a bag of charcoal so that it makes a lot more sense in this country of ours to go and buy a coal briquette which, in fact, will last longer than charcoal. It will make more sense for people to buy the coal briquettes and not charcoal. When that is done, trees all over the country will be conserved. We need to conserve the trees, especially in regions like ours which have low rainfall. Therefore, I would like to specifically find out from the hon. Minister whether he has had an interface with the hon. Ministers of Science, Technology and Vocational Training and Finance and National Planning to deal with this problem of charcoal burning, especially in Namwala, where we do not want it. We do not even know where the people who burn charcoal have come from. At the moment, you can find charcoal at the corners of all the streets. The charcoal burners are cutting trees that have been standing for one thousand years to produce charcoal which is then taken out of our area. 

Mr Chairperson, my major concern is the emergence of charcoal burning. I am looking forward to a policy in Zambia on the use coal. Sir, allow me to illustrate this point. When the cellular phone was first produced, the initial ten where very expensive. However, when millions of them were produced, the price eventually went down. Similarly, since there is so much demand for charcoal, why do we not have an affirmative action to deal with the production of coal briquettes and, in the process, create everlasting employment?

Sir, Maamba Collieries and Kandabwe mines have coal. Maamba will have coal for another million years. The youngsters can sell coal everywhere, including Shang’ombo and where the other Karavina people come from.


Major Chizhyuka: They will have to have a …

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to conserve the forests in Namwala and that can only happen with a national policy on coal. That way, there  will be no need for a charcoal burner to cut down and burn a tree that has grown for 1,000 years because we would have a coal briquette which may even cost less than the price of a 90 or 50 kg bag of charcoal and also provides energy for a much longer period.

Mr Chairperson, I said I would be brief and that is all I had to say.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, I stand here to support the Vote on the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.

From the outset, I would like to say that the hon. Minister is focused and knows what she is doing. It is apparent that she has passion for her work.

However, hon. Minister, you might be let down by some of your staff who …

Dr Machungwa: Manifesto. You are not being accused, but I was accused.

Mr Chota: We are talking about development here and not parties, Hon. Dr Machungwa.


Mr Chota: I know you are a president of a party.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, do not be derailed.

Mr Chota: Hon. Minister, I am talking about instances such as the one that transpired in my constituency regarding the Nsangano National Game Park. I spoke to you about it and you gave directives with passion. However, other people are saying that they do not know about it when there is a management file on this issue that one can just pick up and he/she would know the position on this matter. The courts of law ruled over this case, but we are still talking about it since 2008. Hon. Minister, I know what you are doing and please, assist us in this matter. 

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to talk about extractive industries such as the mines. These industries are dangerous. There is what we call in situ mining which is going on.

Hon. Members: In situ?

Mr Chota: In situ.


Mr Chota: This method of mining entails the use of sulphuric or other acid on the rocks underground to extract whatever metal that is wanted and, in the process, the underground water is polluted.

Hon. Minister, unless we look at such issues, there will be a disaster one day and it will not only be the Kafue River that will be polluted, but also all the underground water in Mufulira, Nchanga and other areas where this method is being used and we will be in problems.

Sir, with these few words, I thank you.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, I thank you. I will try and deal with the issues that have been raised. I may not deal with all of them, but I will try and deal with those that are important.

Sir, I would like to start with the issue of mining and pollution. My ministry, through the ECZ, works closely with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to find a way to deal with the pollution that is taking place in the mining areas. However, there is a history to most of the pollution that the hon. Members have referred to. For instance, the mines on the Copperbelt were once owned by the Government and, during that time, there was very little consideration for the environment. We, however, are ensuring, as a ministry, through the ECZ, that we put measures in place to improve technology and that there is more accountability on the part of the mining companies so that the people are safe and that the environment continues to provide the natural resources that we need in order to develop.

Mr Chairperson, I also would like to let the House know that in the next sitting of Parliament, we will table the Environment Management Bill. Through this Bill we hope that the mandate of the ECZ will be broadened and that it will be further empowered to deal with the issues of pollution that have been raised.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the issue of waste management in townships, I get very worried when hon. Members of Parliament start complaining about the inert action of councils when they are members of the councils. If they see that their councils are not doing enough to ensure the collection of garbage or, indeed, the management of solid waste, it is their duty to ensure that councils do more.

Mr Chairperson, with the imminent Bill, my ministry will expect the councils to provide information on waste that will be generated in their respective councils.

Sir, as regards the lack of adequate training in the tourism sector, I agree that we have a challenge. However, we are working closely with TEVETA to ensure that appropriate training takes place and the private sector institutions are held accountable for the training that they offer to their students.

I note the recommendations that have been made by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kankoyo.

 Hon. Musokotwane, again, I thank you because you always talk about marketing and promotion. It is critical that we market our tourist destinations. I am sure that the hon. Member has seen that we have an unprecedented allocation of more than K12 billion for this exercise. In the past, we used to have less than K4 billion. However, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has been considerate enough to give us K12 billion for marketing and promoting Zambia as a tourist destination of choice. We will make sure that we do a good job of aggressively marketing Zambia as a tourist destination with this money.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of land, as raised by Hon. Kambwili, I would like you to know that forests have both ecological and economic value for the country. I want to take this opportunity to appeal to the hon. Members of Parliament not to promote anarchy, but order in the country. We cannot have a country where people just decide to settle anywhere and anyhow. Forest reserves are protected areas and, as hon. Members of Parliament, we must ensure that people develop their homesteads in a planned manner and not to simply build anywhere they feel like building.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the issue of commercial plantations, allow me, through this House, to encourage the private sector to come on board and take advantage of the opportunity to ensure that more trees are grown. Yes, as a country, unless we have effective private sector participation in the forestry sector, we will reach a point when we will not have enough forestry products to support not only the construction industry, but also the overall livelihood of our people.

I have taken note of Mr Zulu’s suggestion on how to handle the oil pollution that comes from our garages. Hon. Masebo talked about deforestation in her constituency and I agree that Chongwe is one of the areas where there is a lot of deforestation as a result of charcoal burning.

However, I think that there is some confusion in the information that Hon. Masebo has regarding climate change. First of all, the Climate Change Response Strategy is supposed to be implemented at country level. When we talk about the temperature being at 2 degrees Celsius, we are talking about the global levels. As a country, again, I want to state that Zambia, like many other African countries, contributes very little to the gases that cause global warming and, in turn, climate change. I hope that Hon. Masebo will find time to come to the ministry and pick up information on issues of global climate change and the role that we, as a country, must play.

Sir, I have taken note of the information that was presented on the Floor of this House regarding the Leopards Hill caves. We will take appropriate action, as a ministry, on that issue. Although Major Chizhyuka is not in the House, I would like to thank him …

Hon. Opposition Members: He is here!

Ms Namugala: … for his support. I agree with him on the need to do more to reverse the erosion which leads to environmental degradation.

With regard to the issue of charcoal burning, I have said before that charcoal burning or charcoal trading is caused by the high poverty levels in our country and also because there is no alternative form of energy in most of our rural areas. The other driver of charcoal burning is population growth. We are not at the level we were in 1964 in terms of population. We also know that even with this population growth, very few areas of our country have hydro power. Very few of them are connected to the national grid and even fewer have stand-alone mini hydro power stations. We have a challenge not just, as a Government, but as a country, to ensure that we grow the economy so that we have enough resources to provide alternative energy to our people. We have to do this together.

Again, I would like to talk about the issue of foreign direct investment. Our colleagues on your left have been condemning some of our investors who come into the country. We are not going to grow the economy if we start to selectively say this one can come and invest and this one cannot. We need to grow the economy and grow it very fast so that we can provide alternative energy for our people in order to reduce the poverty levels that this country currently has. We have to tackle this together.

Mr Chairperson, I think I have dealt with most of the issues. Let me also take this opportunity to tell Mr Chota, who raised the issue of the Isangano National Park, that it is under consideration and, very soon, we will be able to respond to him.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 68/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68/02 – (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources – Forestry Department – K16,871,505,119).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 8, Activity 02 – United Nation Reducing Emission from Deforestation and Forest Degradation (I) – K5,050,000,00. What is this money for and which projects is the Government talking about?

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, I have said this before that the United Nation Reducing Emission from Deforestation and Forest Degradation (I) is supposed to help communities that depend on forests to have alternative livelihoods. The K5,050,000,000 is for several projects under the United Nation Reducing Emission from Deforestation Programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 68/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 90 – 98 – (Office of the President – Provinces: Lusaka – K34,260,873,301, Copperbelt – K43,809,691,038, Central – K35,229,577,750, Northern – K45,657,610,904, Western  – K35,755,938,936, Eastern– K39,691,869,036, Luapula – K35,654,837,542, North-Western – K35,733,755,711 and Southern – K43,645,920,162).

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, we now move to Vote 90 and we will consider heads 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97 and 98 at the same time and three hon. Members will be allowed to debate from each province.

Mr Mubika: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice shall now deliver the policy statement.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Lubinda: Order him now!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was about to give a policy statement in support of the 2011 Budget Estimates for provinces. I thank you for according me the opportunity to present a consolidated policy statement in support of the estimates of expenditure for the provinces for the year 2011. The main objective of the provincial administration is to provide effective co-ordination, implementation and monitoring of developmental programmes and various sector policies and strategies of line ministries and the Central Government, in order to ensure the provision of quality services to the people in the provinces.

Sir, pursuant to this objective, some of specific functions of the provincial administration include the following:

(i) ensuring that the Government policies are well understood and are timely implemented in the provinces;

(ii) facilitating and co-ordinating development programmes in order to ensure sustainable development;

(iii) planning and co-ordinating developmental activities, including consolidating district development plans into provincial development plans;

(iv) mobilising development resources and monitoring their utilisation, including the execution of district development plans and programmes;

(v) carrying out statutory and audit inspections in all districts;

(vi) co-ordinating State and traditional ceremonies; and

(vii) maintaining law and order.

Mr Chairperson, arising from the above mandate, hon. Members will appreciate the important role that the provincial administration plays in the political social, cultural and economic development of our country.

Sir, a review of the performance for this year, 2010, indicates that the provincial administration recorded significant achievements in numerous areas of development, including in mining, agriculture, livestock and fisheries, infrastructure development and the social sectors as highlighted below.


Mr Chairperson, mining activities on the Copperbelt and the North-Western Provinces generally registered significant growth in 2008, but suffered serious reversals with the on set of the global financial downturn in 2009. Copper production which had picked up significantly in 2008, slowed down in 2009, owing to the global economic recession.

However, the measures introduced by the Government in 2009 to safeguard mining operations helped mitigate the crisis. As a result of these measures, complemented by improvements in world metal prices, some mines which had been placed on care and maintenance and others which had been closed were reopened. The sector continues to register growth with new mining prospects expected to come on stream soon.


Mr Chairperson, with regards to agriculture, it is pleasing to note that many provinces recorded improved agricultural harvests culminating in the bumper harvest that our country has recorded this year. The Government is committed to providing improved support services to the agricultural sector including reviewing the Farmer Input Support Programme and rehabilitation of feeder roads in order to open up areas for ease movement of inputs and produce. Further more, the Government has increased funding to the Food Security Pack Programme from K10 billion to K15 billion.

Livestock and Fisheries

Mr Chairperson, the Government will also continue to support the livestock and fisheries sector through, among other measures, earnestly fighting livestock diseases and cattle and fish restocking programmes. Indeed, in our continued efforts to diversify the economy away from mining and accelerate agricultural production, the Government has fully operationalised the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries with the aim of focusing investment in livestock and fisheries development.

Infrastructure Development and Maintenance

Sir, during the year under review, the Government carried out infrastructure maintenance and rehabilitation in all the nine provinces. Some of these works are scheduled for completion in the course of this year while others will continue.

Social Sectors

Sir, in education, the provincial administration was actively involved in the procurement and distribution of school requisites such as desks, books and other requisites in line with the Government policy of free basic education. Efforts have also continued being made to enhance access to education through the construction of infrastructure at both basic and high school levels.

Mr Chairperson, the provision of health requisites, using poverty reduction funds in order to improve access to quality health services, still remains a key priority for the Government and will, therefore, continue.

Sir, in the administration of justice, a number of local courts and subordinate courts were rehabilitated and constructed throughout the provinces in order to improve the operations of the judicial delivery system and to ensure that justice is quickly dispensed. Further, the Government has continued with the rural electrification programmes. The provision of solar panels and the connection to the national grid were carried out in …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, there is a lot of noise going on. Could you, please, speak, at least, in low voices.

May His Honour the Vice-President continue.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … some schools and health centres in the course of this year. In terms of local governance, the launch of the Decentralisation Implementation Plan (DIP) will provide further impetus for local development as decentralisation takes hold.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to state that the above list of achievements is not exhaustive, but rather illustrative in that the Provincial Administration, over the years, has made significant accomplishments which will always benefit from the support of the hon. Members of this august House.

Sir, this year and next year, the provinces will continue to pursue development programmes aimed at reducing poverty and satisfying the needs of the local communities they serve, including providing timely and reliable agricultural support services such as input supply, crop marketing and the provision of effective agricultural extension services.

Mr Chairperson, livestock production and fisheries development will continue to receive the focused attention it deserves while the provinces will ensure that infrastructure rehabilitation and maintenance are monitored through close supervision.

Provincial administration will also continue to provide an enabling environment for private sector development in line with the Government’s policy of promoting private participation in national development.

Similarly, in the social sectors of education and health, more high schools and health centres will continue to be built with the collaboration of the private sector and faith-based organisations.

Mr Chairperson, I, therefore, wish to seek the support of the hon. Members to approve the estimates of expenditure for the provincial administration in order to ensure equitable development in our provinces.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate.

Sir, some of the votes that we debate in this House are very easy to discuss because we tend to say the same things and, at the end of the day, nothing much is done. There are even times I refer to my old notes and talk about the same things. Even today, I will refer to my old notes and talk about things I have already mentioned in my previous debates because not much has been achieved.

Mr Chairperson, the Copperbelt Province was once a shining example in as far as development was concerned. In the olden days, if you went to the Copperbelt, you would see what copper had done for the province. Today, the story is different because the Copperbelt, including its headquarters, is a shadow of its former self. Nothing much has been done on the roads. The story this speaks and its conclusion is that this province has been grossly mismanaged. It is the least developed province in this country. We have not seen much development despite the fact that it habours huge mining towns. It is shameful and not acceptable.

Mr Chairperson, the environment is not cared for. I appreciate that the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) has done its part. There was a time when units were bought for this country so that they could help with the gravelling and grading of the roads on the Copperbelt. I was the first person to go to the provincial administration to ask for a slot so that the people in the peri-urban areas of Mufulira could see some development and appreciate it. I am disappointed because, despite my going there, nothing happened. The people of Mufulira would like to know what happened to the units bought under the Mwanawasa regime.

The people of Murundu and Mokambo are asking about these units. There are only a few roads in Mufulira. If we worked on the Mokambo/Murundu/Mupena, Muya/Triple S and Chandamali ring roads to Kamuchanga, we would have worked on all the ring roads in Mufulira. It is very simple. However, we were given K2 billion to work on these roads, but nothing has happened. It is not only the rural roads that needed regrading that have not been worked on, but also the roads that need to be tarred.

 We have been singing about tarring the Sabina/Mufulira Road for sometime now. We have been assured that this road will be worked on and it has been allocated K20 billion. Unfortunately, this is not sufficient because we have been told, on the Floor of this House, that K200 billion is needed to work on this road. Why are we getting these assurances when we are given K20 billion as a provision in this year’s Budget? These are the questions we would like answered. We have more questions than answers in this place.

I have a very big problem because the people of Mufulira have been crying, and yet nothing happens. The Mufulira/Ndola Road is impassable. I am wondering why we are offering lip service and turning a blind eye to the things that are happening on the Copperbelt. Mufulira has been isolated. The Mokambo/Mufurila Road is also dilapidated. Things are very bad on the Copperbelt, and yet we have spoken about them, many times, but nothing is happening.

Sir, let me talk about load shedding. This is constantly experienced in Mufulira and we are wondering what is happening

 Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear! Konga!

Mr Mukanga: Why should it be like that? A lot of electronic equipment has been damaged.

 Furthermore, the position that the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) has taken, in Mufulira, to charge commercial rates for street lights is not acceptable because street lights are supposed to be for the entire community. Why charge the council commercial rates? The tariffs are so high that people in the mining areas are failing to pay. The residential tariffs are so high that the people of Kantanshi, Kankoyo and Kamuchanga are complaining and are wondering what the Government is doing about this. They are asking whether the Government cares about them and also wondering how their friends elsewhere are managing.

Now, if you have people complaining in such a manner, what do you expect from them when 2011 is just around the corner? You are digging your own grave unless things change and you address the issues that we mention each and every day.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, there are also a lot of pending projects on the Copperbelt, which were started a long time ago. At the end of the day, nothing happens.

Sir, let me talk about the market projects. The works on the Buteko Market Project, which was started through the Zambia Social Investment Fund (ZAMSIF) in Mufulira and Kantanshi Constituency, in particular, have stalled. There has been no continuity because the money ran out. At the end of the day, nothing much has been done. We keep on singing the song of our mothers and women working and selling in the open for a long time, and yet nothing seems to be happening. When the rainy season comes and the farmers are looking for people to buy their fresh produce, our mothers, who are supposed to resell this produce, are afraid because they know that they will be soaked this time around again. What are we doing? Are we caring for people like that?

Sir, I would like to ask the Government to ensure that, before that market becomes a white elephant, some money is provided although I have not seen any in the Yellow Book. Therefore, it is important that the Government considers sensitive issues like that in order for us to move forward and help out in as far as developmental issues are concerned because there are a lot of comments that are coming our way.

Mr Chairperson, let me now look at the mining companies that are on the Copperbelt. These mining companies need to be visited and reminded. Yes, we need investors to invest in our mining operations, but they should not invest at the expense of the workers where if there is rehabilitation or planned maintenance going on, they put people on recess and do not even give them an underground allowance, but instead, say, “You cannot be paid this allowance because we are carrying out planned maintenance.” What type of a work culture is that?

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: It is important that we address these issues. It does not require an hon. Minister to go there and sort out these problems because this just adds to the many other issues that the hon. Minister needs to attend to. They should just be told, once and for all through, maybe, a change of labour laws so that these things become history.

Sir, we have miners who are getting paid K450,000 on the Copperbelt. Some miners who are working for Chambishi, which is a Chinese Company, are being told that their conditions of service cannot be improved because the company is still facing the effects of the global crisis. Are the effects of the global crisis still affecting few mines whereas some of them have come out of it? It is important that we talk to them. We want to see a change and things working for the betterment of the people of the Copperbelt.  We want to see to it that the miners also start benefiting.

Sir, we have spoken about many things. Regarding pollution, we have said that this issue will not be resolved until the Government steps in. I do not know why this Government has just been watching from the terraces while these people are doing whatever they want. The other day, the Kafue River was polluted. These mining companies even announced that they had polluted the Kafue River, and yet the Executive is just watching. Unless serious penalties are meted out, these companies will continue to pollute the rivers and the water that we drink. This polluted water will either affect us now or in future because the acid that it contains causes slow death. At the end of the day, people will die.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I have driven on most roads on the Copperbelt and it surprises me to see some strange road signs when I drive along the Kafulafuta/Luanshya Road. I do not understand some of the meanings of these road signs because they are not even in the Highway Code.

Mr Kambwili: Beware of potholes.

Mr Mukanga: There are signs which say, “Beware of Potholes”. This is not acceptable. A Highway Code should be made public. If the Highway Code contains hidden signs, we would like to know about them. There are some road signs that show arrows that I cannot interpret.

Mr Kambwili laughed.

Mr Mukanga: Sir, there is a need to rectify these road signs on the Copperbelt. Even when the Government engages the Chinese to work on these roads, they should not use their own symbols or signs. To protect the motorists, let them use the signs that we have in the country. At the moment, the road signs that are on the Kafulafuta/Luanshya Road make it difficult for a motorist to know what they are being alerted about. Where there is a symbol with an arrow pointing to the left and one might think he or she has to turn to the left only to discover that the turn is actually to the right. Therefore, it is important that we address these issues. I am not joking because these are serious issues that we need to look at and ensure they are done the right way.

Mr Chairperson, in as far as the health sector is concerned, I do not want to repeat what I said before. However, I would like to say that there is a need to provide drugs, linen and water in the hospitals on the Copperbelt. We are not happy about the prevailing situation in the health institutions on the Copperbelt. For your own information, at one time, the people on the Copperbelt were exposed to a very good medical scheme under the ZCCM. People were exposed to this very good medical scheme and the ZCCM used to handle everything.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: It provided proper medication and everything that people needed. The ZCCM was like a mother to us. It handled our medicals and also ensured that there was cleanliness in the townships. Today, if you came to the Copperbelt, you would see how filthy it is.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Garbage has not been collected for years and it is a sorry sight. The garbage collecting company is not working as it is expected to. The hon. Minister must intervene and speak with the Copperbelt Solid Waste Management Company (COP-WASTE). If Cop-Waste does not meet the standards we want, we will reject it. It collects tariffs through water bills, and yet it does not do its job on the ground.

There is historical waste pilling up in markets. Sometimes, I wonder how people buy fruits from the markets because the place is filthy. This place should be cleaned up. There is a need for us to …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member, who is debating so well, in order to debate against himself by saying that the cities on the Copperbelt are dirty, and yet it is the work of the Patriotic Front (PF)-run councils that are supposed to deal with this dirt?


Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Is he in order to debate against himself by bringing the failures of the PF here to Parliament? Mr Chairperson, I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The point of order raised has to do with how councils are managed. However, as it is known, hon. Members are free to debate even what they are expected to do the work themselves. The right to debate is theirs and it cannot be taken away from them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: May you continue.

Mr Kambwili: Four – zero! Long live the Chair!

Mr Mukanga: It is important to realise that the grants given to the councils are small. Furthermore, some statements made by the Executive, advising people not to pay land rates because they are high, have also added to the council’s inadequate funding.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: People on the Copperbelt are refusing to pay land rates because of the pronouncement that the President made when he came to the Copperbelt.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Therefore, it is important that when making pronouncements, you take all other issues into consideration. If you do not that, what is happening now regarding land rates will be the results. Instead of bringing positive development to the country, it will be negative development. We want to change things by moving forward and not remaining where we are. If you are not allocating enough money to councils because they are run by the Opposition, it is not acceptable. We pay taxes and taxpayers are not only from the PF, but Zambians who were born in Zambia and working in Zambia and are contributing to the development of the country. It is, therefore, important that we share resources equitably so that all the councils, whether run by the United Party for National Development (UPND) or PF, also benefit. Why are you giving money to councils run by the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) only?


Mr Mukanga: It is not acceptable. The councils run by the MMD are also failing because the grants they are given are insufficient. What we, as councils, want are grants. We do not want to play to the gallery, but to tell you the truth. Reverend, it is important that the people know the truth and we cannot be hiding behind the pulpit because truth is truth.


Mr Mukanga: It is for this reason that I am saying that even if we are to administer people, from the pulpit, they should have a clean environment that can only come if we make adequate provisions. You and I, Reverend, are here for a purpose. God wants to use us so that the people may receive the benefits of their God-given resources and that the resources may not be in the pockets of people.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mukanga: May God forbid.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There is only one hon. Member debating.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Copperbelt Province.

Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I would like to say that I am very disappointed with the entire administration on the Copperbelt. If I were to rate the performance of the hon. Minister for the Copperbelt Province, not that he has no ability, but because he has politicised the province, I would give him 2 per cent.

Mrs Banda: Hear, hear!


Mr Kambwili: This hon. Minister must be removed from the province. Most of the hon. Members in the province are from the Opposition and he has no time for them.

The much-spoken about rural …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, as you debate, remember that there are three arms of the Government, the Executive, Legislature and the Judiciary. The job of those of us in Parliament is to legislate, discuss and play an oversight role on the Government. However, it is not our responsibility to tell the Government who it should remove or keep because that is the function of the Executive. You know that very well, hon. Member, and it would be good to retain the decorum of the House so that the debate does not degenerate.

Will the hon. Member continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, all I am saying is that this hon. Minister must remove politics from his administration if the Copperbelt has to develop. The road equipment that has been taken to the Copperbelt has only been to Mpongwe, Masaiti and Lufwanyama and the only rural constituency where this equipment has been is Luanshya where there is an MMD hon. Member of Parliament.

Mr Chairperson, all of us have requested for this road equipment by writing to his office, but all he has told us is that the equipment is meant for rural constituencies which our constituencies are not. However, when that equipment was being allocated to the Copperbelt, the Government did not say that it was only meant for the rural constituencies. We also have peri-urban areas where there are roads that need to be worked on. Therefore, I do not hate or have nothing against my uncle and very good friend, Hon. Mbulakulima, but I have everything against the way he is running the province.

Mr Chairperson, in all the provinces, when there is a Provincial Co-Ordinating Committee Meeting, hon. Members are invited. However, on the Copperbelt, we were only invited once and when we brought out a lot of issues, he removed us from the committee by stopping to invite us. What kind of administration is that? This man is not there for the MMD, but the people of Zambia who live on the Copperbelt Province. Therefore, if he is not interested in discussing development issues with the Copperbelt Members of Parliament, he should find somewhere to go. We want a minister who will understand our problems so that together, we can develop the Copperbelt Province.

Mr Mukanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We want this equipment to come to our peri-urban areas so that we can give a service to our people. And let me just tell you, Mr Chairperson, that if you think by not giving us that equipment you are decampaigning us, to the contrary, you are actually putting us on high ground because we have been telling the people that it is Mbulakulima who is causing all these problems.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


Hon. Government Members: We do not debate ourselves. Why is he debating us?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, you can put your points down very well and very calmly without reducing your friends to a single name without a Mr or honourable. I think we must debate with decorum, we are hon. Members and I expect that of you.

You may continue.

Mr Kambwili: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. It was a slip of the tongue. Hon. Mbulakulima is causing these problems and I want to appeal to him ...

The Deputy Chairperson: He is an hon. Minister, please.

Mr Kambwili: The hon. Minister for the Copperbelt is causing all these problems and I want to appeal to him to change his attitude towards Opposition Members of Parliament. To him, everything that comes out of the mouth of an Opposition Member of Parliament is nonsense.

Hon. Government Member: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: For instance, we know that the Chinese were ill-treating the people at the stadium that is being constructed in Ndola. I went there and checked. I found the toilets were filthy and dirty and when I told the Chinese to clean the toilets, he went and said it was none of my business. If he thinks it is none of my business, I am sorry to let him know that I care for the people of the Copperbelt Province.

Secondly, at Luanshya Copper Mines, when they go on shut down, they send the people in the township on recess and remove the leave days and the underground allowance, collect Identification Cards (ID) from them, issue the remaining ones with different IDs and deny them permission to board their buses. What kind of administration is this? When we say this is wrong, he sends another MMD grouping to Luanshya to issue a statement against me that I am delaying the progress of the rehabilitation exercise. That is unacceptable. All I am trying to do is speak for an …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, as much as I would like you to continue, you have just been debating one individual. Please, debate issues. The issues are separate from the person.

Mr Mbulakulima: Ninshimbi, mwaiche.

The Deputy Chairperson: If you do not do that, you make it very difficult for us.

You may continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, thank you. So, change, hon. Minister, for the better.

Let me move on to the funding of …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Will you withdraw the last statement because I made a ruling on it that the issue of removing the hon.  Minister from a ministry is not your responsibility.

Mr Kambwili: I did not say remove, I said change for the better.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, I heard you very well. May you continue, but avoid debating like that.

Mr Kambwili: Let me move on to the funding of the basic schools on the Copperbelt. There are problems on the entire Copperbelt, more especially in my constituency, as regards bills for electricity and water in the basic schools because the Government is not funding these schools adequately. I would urge the provincial administration to take all these issues into consideration when coming up with budgets for the schools.

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about the high schools. It has now become a habit that, every year, the highs schools have to increase the user fees. The user fee was intended for a very good purpose, which is to try and improve the education standard in the schools. However, it appears now that this has become a tool to deter poor people’s children from going to school. Every year, they increase the user fees in the secondary schools, and yet the salaries of the civil servants and miners are not increased. Towards every month end, half of the school children are sent away from school for non-payment of user fees. This issue must be sorted out by the provincial administration. We need our children to go to school and we should use all means and ways to try and get money from the parents for the pupils other than chasing the students from school. It is affecting the results. One of the schools in my constituency, Twashuka High School, last year, recorded very poor results. When I went to the school to find out from the pupils and teachers why the school is performing so badly, I was told that pupils mostly spend their time at home because they are chased for failure to pay user fees. Therefore, I am appealing to the Copperbelt provincial administration to quickly sort out this problem of user fees. There must be a standard fee instead of schools charging different fees ranging from K400,000 to K600,000. What is going on? Why can we not come up with a standard user fee that is acceptable and affordable to everybody, including the poor? I am, therefore, pleading with the hon. Minister to look into this issue.

I now move to the quality of jobs being created on the Copperbelt. Surely, we can do better. The Copperbelt Province was developed by the investors who came to the mining sector in the 1930s. All the houses in Mpatamatu, Roan, Luanshya, Kankoyo, and Wusakile townships, for example, were built by these investors. They were built by Roan Consolidated Mines (RCM) and Nchanga Consolidated Cooper Mines (NCCM).

Today, the investors we are bringing are not building any houses. An example is the investors the Government has brought to Luanshya. These investors are building small quarters for their Chinese workers within the yards of the few houses that they found. They do not want to come to the council and ask for land to build houses, but prefer to squeeze in the already existing plots. Places such as the Director’s Lodge which used to look very nice now look like chicken runs.

When these investors come to the Copperbelt, we want them to build houses as was the case with RCM and NCCM. This will ensure that when they go, they leave behind some infrastructure. However, these investors do not care about the future welfare of the people in Luanshya. All they are interested in is making profits from the sale of copper.

Mr Chairperson, even the payment of salaries on the Copperbelt is not equitable. I appeal to the hon. Minister to seriously engage these mining companies and find a way forward in as far as paying miners is concerned. My brother, Hon. Mukanga, bemoaned the fact that some miners are paid as little as K450,000 for going underground. Somebody who has been underground and knows the work that is done there would feel pity for these miners.

This issue has nothing to do with the unions. There must be, at least, a set standard for miners’ salaries. I have said before that Mopani Copper Mines, Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) and Kansanshi Mine pay G7 Miners about K2.8 million while the Chinese are paying the same grade of workers K300,000 to K1.2 million. What is going on? Let us engage these mining companies on the Copperbelt and find a lasting solution so that our people can benefit from the high copper prices.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the issue of land, which I debated during consideration for the previous vote. The hon. Minister said that we should understand the need for us to have forest reserves. Nobody is refusing the fact that we need forest reserves. However, why should we maintain forest reserves at the expense of people’s survival? I can give an example of the place where the multi-facility economic zone (MEFZ) in Chambishi is today. That area used to be a forest reserve. Some Zambians had applied to use that land for farming, but were turned down. When the Chinese came and have been allowed to use it for commercial purposes. Other people had applied to use the land where the Ndola Stadium has been built but their application was also turned down.

Therefore, why are we being unfair to our own people in the use of land in this country? There are vast forests in Zambia. There is nothing wrong with maintaining forests while some parts are given to people for agricultural production. We are not saying we get all the forest areas and turn them into farm blocks.  We are saying that we should share the land in this country between forests and land for agricultural purposes.

 As regards provision of health care services, one would think that all is rosy when hon. Government Members stand to talk about this matter. All the clinics in my constituency that were formerly run by the ZCCM have been taken over by the Government. However, today, these clinics are sorry sights. Section 27 Clinic is opened only from morning up to 1700 hours.

Mr D. Mwila: Shame, shame!

Mr Kambwili: This clinic no longer has a maternity wing. I have tried all means to engage the provincial administration and Ministry of Health to ensure that this clinic starts operating for twenty-four hours, but to no avail. When people are sick at night, they have to walk and push their sick on wheelbarrows from Roan to Mpatamatu, which is about 10 kilometres away. If you cannot open that clinic for 24 hours, at least, provide an ambulance to ferry patients from the clinic to the hospital.

Mr Chairperson, the Section 9 Clinic has the same problem, and yet those clinics were excellent sometime back. Today, if you go there, you can cry because the clinics are in a bad state. The window panes are broken while some have been stolen. There is no guard to take care of the premises. What is going on? Can we change our attitude towards these things?

Mr Chairperson, you want to build more hospitals, clinics and health centres, and yet you are failing to maintain the existing ones. For instance, Section 27 Clinic runs with three nurses, while the Section 9 one runs with four nurses. Can we, please, put a human face to the health sector because the people who live in these areas are Zambians who pay tax and are entitled to good health facilities?

Mr Chairperson, as regards the District Commissioners (DCs), I think that their role has not been fully defined. We know that one of the functions of the mayor is to officiate at functions as a guest of honour. Unfortunately, today, whenever there are functions such as Independence Day celebrations and HIV/AIDS programme launches, the guest of honour is usually a DC. What is the job of the mayor now and why is it that the DCs have taken up the mayor’s role? You have a lot of important jobs to do in the many Government departments in the districts, but not to officiate at Independence Day celebrations and many other small functions. Leave these jobs to the mayors because that is their job. As the case is now, the mayor’s role has been diluted.


Mr Kambwili: Yes, that is what is happening on the Copperbelt. If, in other places, it is not happening, know that it is occurring on the Copperbelt. Can we define the role of the mayors and those of the DCs? I think the DCs are overstepping their boundaries.

  As regards the issue of the Kafubu Water and Sewerage Company ─ I do not know whether the word ‘rubbish” is unparliamentary …

The Deputy Chairperson: It is unparliamentary.

Mr Kambwili: I think it is the worst water utility company on the Copperbelt.


Mr Kambwili: It depends on where you come from, young man.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: It is the worst water utility company in the province. In Luanshya Township, tap water is brownish. Several times, I have tried to talk to the people who work for the water utility company regarding their work, but no improvement has been recorded so far. Last week, I gave them an ultimatum of one month to improve, if they do not do so, they should find somewhere else to go and do their work and move out of Luanshya. We had cases of dysentery in Luanshya recently and the hospital personnel said the outbreak was caused by the lack of water and the hon. Minister knows about this. Can we talk to Kafubu Water and Sewerage Company to change its attitude? This is the problem of appointing cadres as chairpersons of boards of such institutions.

Mr Chairperson, when you go to see the former Reverend, he does not give you answers, more especially when you are from the Opposition. He thinks that you are bothering him. Can we change that attitude on the Copperbelt Province and provide service to our people that will stand the test of time?

With these few words, I support the vote for Copperbelt Province and I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, in supporting the Southern Province budget, I have a few remarks to make. Our hon. Minister is new and welcome to the Southern Province, a place where he will either stop shaving because of problems or shave only when he has a big beard.

Mr Chairperson, I have noted that the budget has been increased only by 10 per cent. To me, this increase indicates that no other expenditure will be increased except the one related to salaries. It is anticipated that there will be a salary increment of 10 per cent which is the only allocation that has been provided with an increment. There is a reduction to a very important item in Southern Province Budget. As you all know, the Southern Province is a dry province, so we need water through dams. Last year, the budget for such purposes was K400 million and this year, you have only put aside K190 million. How can we behave like this? We know that Southern Province needs water and we have to rehabilitate dams …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Debate adjourned



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
(Progress reported)




The Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.


The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 25th November, 2010.