DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 29th March, 2011

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

ZAMBIA-TANZANIA ROAD SERVICES COMPANY CLOSURE

399. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a) when the Zambia-Tanzania Road Services Company was closed;

(b) how many people were employed by the company at the time of its closure; and

(c) Whether the employees were paid their terminal benefits and, if not, when they would be paid.

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, the Zambia-Tanzania Road Services Company was closed on 8th August, 1985 when it went into liquidation. At the time of the closure, the company had 398 employees in Zambia.

The ex-employees of this company were paid their terminal benefits in accordance with the Companies Act Cap. 686 of the Laws of Zambia relating to liquidated companies. This was done following discussions between the joint liquidators, which were Zambia Industrial and Mining Corporation (ZIMCO) and the Ministries of Communications and Transport in Zambia and Tanzania.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I have had representation from 200 employees of this company claiming that they were not paid their terminal benefits by the receiver. Can the hon. Minister reconcile this? What is his source of information because the people are still claiming that they have not been paid?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the information we have given is authentic. If there are any doubts, we would be very glad to know the list of names of those who are claiming that benefits have not been paid to them.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, may I find out how much money was raised from the sale of assets since this company was liquidated.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we shall be very glad to provide an answer to such a question if the hon. Member so desires, but that is a totally new question.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

___________{mospagebreak}

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA BILL, 2010

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, before I call upon His Honour the Vice-President and Learned hon. Minister of Justice, I wish to guide the House as follows:

The House should note that the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010 precedes the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The Bill is a technical necessity as it generally deals with savings and transitional provisions of existing laws, offices and institutions, among other things, that are affected by the extensive amendments to the Constitution of Zambia Act, 1991, as a result of the amendment Bill. The Bill also provides for the commencement date, printing and publication of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, 2010.

Further, hon. Members should note that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010 is the one which deals with the substantial provisions of the Constitution which is the Schedule to the current Act.

Hon. Members, as this is a constitutional Bill, Article 79 of the existing Republican Constitution and Standing Order No. 100 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2005 Edition, provide that a Bill to amend the Constitution shall not be passed unless it is supported, on Second or Third Readings, by the votes of not less than two-thirds of all the hon. Members of the Assembly. However, any amendment at Committee Stage requires only a simple majority to stand as part of the Bill.

Thank you.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010 seeks to amend the Constitution of Zambia Act, Chapter 1 of the Laws of Zambia, by providing for the printing and publication of the amended Constitution; the savings and transitional provisions of existing State organs and institutions, administrations, offices, institutions and laws; the savings of succession to assets, rights, liabilities, obligations and legal proceedings; and related matters.

Sir, I wish, from the outset, to draw the attention of this august House to the inextricable link between the Constitution of Zambia Act and the Constitution of Zambia, the latter being a Schedule to the former. It is on occasion of this very link that I will make constant reference to the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010 which seeks to amend the Constitution of Zambia.

Sir, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010 contains proposals that, among others, will affect existing laws, rights, duties and obligations of the Government, offices, pensions, gratuities and other benefits, the Legislature and Judiciary.

With respect to legislation, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010, once enacted, will require the repeal of certain legislation or the re-enactment, with or without modification, of existing laws and the promulgation of new legislation. This may negatively affect accrued rights, existing duties and obligations of the Government, offices and office holders, pensions, gratuities and other benefits, the Legislation and Judiciary.

Mr Speaker, for example, with respect to Members of the National Assembly who form part of the Legislature, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, proposes that a person shall be eligible to be elected as a Member of the National Assembly if that person, among others, has obtained, as a minimum qualification, a Grade 12 certificate of education or its equivalent. This qualification is novel and does not exist in the current Constitution of Zambia.

Consequently, by implication, any serving Member of Parliament who does not hold a Grade 12 certificate of education or its equivalent would not, once the Constitution is enacted, qualify to continue as a Member of Parliament. The application of the clause in such manner would result in vacancies which, in turn, would, undoubtedly, cause untold disruption to the functioning of the Legislature. This is just an illustration, Sir.

Therefore, it is imperative to save matters such as those to which I have already made reference so as to preserve, beyond doubt, their functioning or existence. This is the tenor of the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010.

The Bill seeks to preserve laws which would otherwise be repealed or cease to have effect, once the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010 comes into effect. In particular, the Bill proposes the preservation of all legislation in existence before the coming into effect of the Constitution as amended provided the legislation is consistent with the Constitution as amended.

Mr Speaker, the Bill also proposes to save existing offices such as the Office of the President, Vice-President, Minister and Deputy Ministers and the holders thereof. It also preserves the other two State organs being the Legislature and the Judiciary. The preservation of these offices and their respective holders is cardinal for the continued effective functioning of the Government without causing unnecessary disruption or incurring unnecessary expenses requisite for any change of Government.

Further, the Bill provides for the continuation of the Government’s subsisting rights, duties and obligations, as the passing of a new constitution cannot be a means of abrogating Government’s responsibility for any duties and obligations owed. In similar light, accrued benefits such as pensions and gratuities will be preserved.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to highlight the setting forth, in the Bill, of transitional provisions which, on the enactment of the Bill, will have the effect of deferring the immediate commencement of certain provisions until the enactment of legislation which is necessary to give them effect.

Mr Speaker, as you are aware, the legislative process that culminates in an Act of Parliament is not an easy one. It is an inclusive process which requires that the Government undertakes much consultation with stakeholders whose operations will be affected by the proposed legislation. Such consultation and the legislation resulting therefrom would not be possible without the deferral of the coming into effect of the provisions that require the enactment of legislation for their effective operationalisation. This is, wherein, the importance of transitional provisions lies.

Mr Speaker, further, the deferral of the operation of certain provisions is important so as to allow the legislative process to run its course and to ensure that the resultant legislation stipulates all matters that are cardinal to, pertain to or are connected with, or incidental to, the effective operation of the said provisions.

Mr Speaker, one provision for which transitional provisions are required is Clause 65(1)(b) which provides for an enlarged composition of the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the enlargement of the National Assembly, such deferral is necessitated by the requirement for an Act of Parliament to give effect to the proportional representation segment of the mixed member representation system. However, the promulgation of an effective piece of legislation on this subject is dependent on, among others, extensive consultations with all relevant stakeholders with respect to the manner of operationalising the system. Without the deferral of the coming into effect of the provision, much doubt is cast as to whether these important consultations would be possible.

Mr Speaker, from the foregoing, it is evident that the proposed legislation is cardinal for the purpose of ensuring that there is no disruption of the function of the three arms of Government and governance, in general, arising out of the enactment of the new Constitution.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is not controversial. It is progressive and I, therefore, urge the hon. Members of this august House to support it.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Question!

Mr Speaker: This is just to remind the august House that there are two Bills before you. For emphasis, one is the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010 and that is Order No. 1. The other, Order No. 2, is the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010. This is also Second Reading. We have to take each at a time. So, right now, under consideration is the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010. We will have to conclude the Second Reading stage of this Bill before we go to the next Order. His Honour the Vice-President debated the way he did to show the connection between the two. My assumption, and I believe I am right, is that there is another speech that he will deliver when dealing with Order of the Day No. 2. As for the rest of the hon. Members, avoid making reference to Order No. 2, but confine yourself to Order No. 1 which, as you may have heard, sounds, to me, like straightforward. So, if you do not have much to say on this, we can proceed to a vote so that we give more time to the meat under point No. 2. However, procedure requires that I call for any further debate. The Chairperson of the Special Select Committee on this matter, hon. Member for Livingstone may debate.

Mr Sikota, SC. (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, allow me to acquaint this august House with some of the salient issues that your Committee encountered during their deliberations on the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010.

Mr Speaker, your Committee notes that the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010, provides for the printing and publication of the amended Constitution; the savings and transitional provisions of existing State organs and institutions, administrations, offices, institutions and laws; and savings of succession to assets, rights, liabilities, obligations and legal proceedings.

Mr Speaker, to assist in its deliberations, your Committee invited various witnesses to submit their written views on the Bill. The witnesses also appeared before your Committee to make their oral submissions. Sir, I wish to report to the House that none of the witnesses that appeared before your Committee raised any concerns or issues regarding the Bill as it was generally viewed that it is principally concerned with a transitional rather than substantive provision. In agreeing with the witnesses, your Committee observes that the Bill is consequential to the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010, and that its enactment is essential because the amended Constitution can only be published and come into operation once this Bill has been enacted.

Your Committee, therefore, observes that the provisions of the Bill are non-controversial and recommends that all hon. Members of the House support the Bill.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, the members of your Committee wish to thank you for appointing them to serve on this important Select Committee. Your Committee is also grateful for the services and advice rendered to it by the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly during its deliberations.

Your Committee further wishes to pay tribute to all the stakeholders that appeared before it, for their oral and written submissions which assisted it in making informed recommendations to the House.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I wish to thank the hon. Members for their unity and overwhelming support in the House.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, as I said earlier, this is a Bill regarding the Constitution and I shall put it to a vote which shall be recorded accordingly. This is part of the formalities in this House.

We require a division and, hon. Members, instead of going into the lobbies as we used to do before, shall vote electronically. However, since I believe that we have two or so hon. Members of the House who are new, I shall go through the procedure for voting electronically.

When you hear the paging sound, remove the card from the unit before you and reinsert it. After the card is identified, the word ‘present’ appears. Press the button corresponding to ‘present’. The next stage offers you three options. It offers you the number two if you want to vote yes. If you want to vote no, press three and if you want to abstain, press four. The amber light flickers on each option. Select your choice and the flickering light on the other options will go off. Then, you have voted. Now, do it.

Let us hear the paging sound first. Remove the card from the unit before you reinsert it. If there are any machines where there are no hon. Members, please, let us ensure that these are removed. The House messengers will go round and remove the cards where there is no hon. Member of Parliament.

I hear some slots do not have any card at all. If there is a card, remove it. Can you see the word ‘present’?

Hon. Members: Yes.{mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker: Press the button corresponding to present. You have four options there. Those who wish to vote yes should press two. Those who wish to vote no should press three and those who wish to abstain should press four. I believe the amber light is flickering or it did so on each option. If you have voted, that flickering light should go off. Well, you have all voted. Let us wait for the results.

I shall announce the results as soon as everyone can see them.

Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Speaker: Well, the total electorate or whatever you may call it, yourselves, is 114.

Question that the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010, be now read a second time, put and the House voted.

Ayes – (96)

Mr Akakandelwa
Mr R. C. Banda 
Mr A. Banda
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.
Mr I. Banda
Mr Beene
Mr Chanda
Ms Changwe
Mr Chella
Major Chibamba
Mr Chikwakwa
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga 
Dr Chituwo
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chongo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Hamududu
Mr Imasiku
Ms Imbwae
Mr Imenda
Mr Kachimba
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kakoma 
Mr Kalenga
Dr Kalila
Mr Kamondo
Ms Kapwepwe
Mr Kasoko
Mr Kasongo
Mr Katuka
Mr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Mr Liato
Ms Limata
Ms Lundwe
Mr Lungu
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Machila
Dr Machungwa
Mr Mangani
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Milupi
Mr Mooya
Mr Mubika
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukuma
Mr L. P. J. Mulenga 
Mr Mulyata
Mr Mung’omba
Mr Munkombwe
Mr Muntanga
Mrs Musokotwane
Dr Musonda
Mr Muteteka
Mr Muyanda
Mr Mwaanga
Mr V. Mwale
Mr M. B. Mwale
Mr Mwangala
Mr Mwansa
Dr Mwansa
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mweemba
Mr Mwiimbu 
Mrs Nalumango
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nkhata
Mr Nkombo
Mr Nyirenda 
Mr Phiri
Professor Phiri
Dr Puma
Mr Shakafuswa
Lt. Gen. Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Sikota, SC.
Mr Silavwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simama
Mr Simbao
Mrs Sinyangwe
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Syakalima
Mr Taima
Mr Tembo

Noes – (17)

Mrs Banda
Mr Chota
Mr Kambwili
Ms Kapata
Mr Kapeya
Ms Kawandami
Mr Lubinda
Mr Malama
Mr Misapa
Mr Mukanga
Mr C. Mulenga
Mr Mushili
Ms Mwamba 
Mr Mwenya
Mr D. Mwila
Dr Scott
Mr Simuusa

Abstention – (1)
Mr Lumba

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I hear there is a technicality. What I want to do is to physically count all of you in here minus the 17 who voted against the Bill and the one who abstained. Let us do a head count right now.

The Clerks-at-the-Table counted.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! There was an omission. The bells did not ring.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! Let us wait. Later on, I will want to know where those who are coming in have been because you knew that this is a crucial Bill. Why are you late?

Hon. Opposition Member: Daka!

Mr Speaker: When you have a situation like this, there is even no need to call for the bells because certain steps are automatic.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! The number of hon. Members who are here present and who voted is 118 and not 114. The total membership of the National Assembly is ...

Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Speaker: No, there is a vacancy, I believe. How many vacancies are there?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I hear that there are two vacancies. There should be 156 of you here. Where are the rest? Where are they on this particular day?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Well, the good thing is that I did not finally announce the results. I was simply stating what was happening here. As you know, this is really the door to the main Constitution which we are going to debate. Now, to avoid any doubts, we now have to physically divide into groups.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Oh, yes.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! We now have to physically divide into groups.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Speaker: Order! Do we have the division charts here?

I will sit down while we deal with the mechanics in the old-fashioned way.

Now, while we are waiting for things to be put in place, let me explain to you the consequences …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: ... of what happens if you do not open this door to Order No. 2. It means you are stuck with the current Constitution …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: ... which I believe most of you do not seem to favour.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! There is a better explanation. I am sorry to say the machine is malfunctioning.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Unfortunately, the machine is malfunctioning. That is the verdict of the electronic people over there.

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Mr Speaker: The machine is malfunctioning. However, the machine cannot stop this House from proceeding with its business. Now, with that technical explanation in mind, it is clear that we now truly have to divide physically into groups.

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! We are now going to do it in the old-fashioned way. The bells must ring now.

Interruptions

PF Members of Parliament walked out of the Chamber.{mospagebreak}

Question that the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010, be now read a second time, put and the House voted.

Ayes (91)

Mr Akakandelwa
Mr A. Banda
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.
Mr W. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr Chanda
Ms Changwe
Mr Chella
Mr Chikwakwa
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Dr Chituwo
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chongo
Ms Cifire
Mr Daka
Mr Imasiku
Ms Imbwae
Mr Imenda
Mr Kachimba
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kakusa
Mr Kalenga
Kalila
Mr Kamondo
Ms C. M. Kapwepwe
Mr Kasongo
Mr Katuka
Dr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda, SC.
Mr Liato
Mr Lumba
Mr Lungu
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mr Machila
Dr Machungwa
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mubika
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukuma
Mr L. P. J. Mulenga
Mr Mulonga
Mr Mulyata
Mr Mung’omba
Mr Munkombwe
Dr Musonda
Mr Muteteka
Mr Mwaanga
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwangala
Mr Mwansa
Dr Mwansa
Mr Mwanza
Ms Mwape
Mr Mwapela
Mr B. Y. Mwila
Mrs Nalumango
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nkhata
Mr Nyirenda
Mr Phiri
Prof. Phiri
Dr Puma
Mr Shawa
Lt. Gen. Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Sikota, SC.
Mr Silavwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simama
Mr Simbao
Mrs Sinyangwe
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Taima
Mr Tembo
Ms Tembo

Noes (0)

Abstentions (19)

Mr Beene
Mr Chazangwe
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kasoko
Mrs Limata
Mr Mooya
Mr Muntanga
Mrs Musokotwane
Mr Muyanda
Mr Mweemba
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Shakafuswa
Mr Syakalima
Question accordingly negative.

Mr Speaker: Since the minimum two-thirds majority is 106, the Bill has failed. It is negatived and I understand that this means that the door is shut to the consideration of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010, Second Reading stage.

As I hinted, the implication is that the Republic of Zambia still has a Constitution, the current one of 1991 as amended, substantially, in 1996. I can hear a pin drop in the Chamber. The House still has business to transact tomorrow and we will assemble here, as usual, at 1430 hours.

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1622 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 30th March, 2011.