DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 16th June, 2011

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MANSA RIOTS

508. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) (on behalf of Mr D. Mwila) (Chipili) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) what the cause of the riots in Mansa in April, 2011 had been;

(b) how many people had been shot at by the police and subsequently died during the disturbances;

(c) how many police officers had been arrested for the deaths at (b); and

(d) what the total value of property lost during the riot was.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, ...

Mr Speaker: Order! I will suspend business for five minutes because the machines have stopped working.

Business was suspended from 1436 hours until 1442 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Speaker: We are now communicating, and so, we shall have to start from the top with questions for oral answer.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Taima): Mr Speaker, the riots in Mansa were caused by false rumours that there were ritual murders being perpetuated by some prosperous business people in the district.

During the riots in Mansa, no person died as a result of being shot at by the police and, therefore, no police officer has been arrested in connection with the shootings.

Lastly, the total value of property lost during the riots is estimated to be K14.9 billion.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, I would like to know how many police officers were involved in looting of property.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the exact number of police officers involved has not been ascertained, but we know that some officers were involved and these were arrested and taken to the courts of law.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, a riot of that magnitude should worry the Government. I would like to know whether the Government has gone further to ascertain whether, indeed, what ignited these riots was just a rumour and if the Government has contacted any sangomas to try and find out if these ritual killings really transpired.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the Government does not believe in sangomas and so it did not involve them in the exercise. However, what is true is that these rumours ignited the riot. As to whether they were true or not is difficult to ascertain.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, it is believed that the rumour that sparked the riot started after people listened to a radio programme famously known as ‘Ilyashi Lyapano Isonde’ on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC). If this is true, I would like to find out what measures the Government is going to take because we have seen a radio station being closed in the Western Province in connection with similar circumstances.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the alleged rumours, as indicated by the hon. Member, are not true. I fail to understand the link between the alleged rumours in Mansa with what she says happened in the Western Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Lungu: That is what she said and I am answering according that.

Ms Lundwe: Yes, continue!

Mr Lungu: Those rumours were not true.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, earlier in the year, the President issued a directive that the police should not use live bullets. I wonder if that directive is still in force.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the law is still in place. His Excellency the President emphasised that point and I reiterated it. We are appealing to our law enforcement agencies not to use live ammunition. The sad part is that because people know that the Government has told the police not to use live ammunition, they tend to get into riotous behaviour in order to force the police to do what they are not supposed to do.

Let me, therefore, seize this opportunity to appeal to our people to be calm and not riotous.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, the propensity to riot whenever there is a grievance by members of the public has been growing in this country. Is this a sign of the public not having confidence in Government institutions to resolve their issues?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the propensity to riot seems to be on the increase, according to the hon. Member’s statement. It is difficult for us to tell whether people who tend to be riotous have lost confidence in the Government. What I can say is that people should desist from being riotous. The responsibility of the Government is to ensure that law and order is maintained. People have to co-operate with us for them to live in peace.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Members will confine themselves to the question.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister indicate how many deaths occurred during that riot.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister did indicate. May he reiterate.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I will read the written answer, again, and this was in relation to question (b). I said that, during the riots, in Mansa, no person died as a result of being shot at by the police.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Lungu: This is our answer. What else do you want me to say?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, do not engage them. Address the Chair.

Laughter

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that after that incident, some businessmen and women are now running away from Mansa? If he is aware, what assurance can he give to the business community in Mansa in as far as security is concerned?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that some businessmen and women are running away from Mansa. Our concern was to ensure that there was peace in Mansa so that the business people could continue conducting their businesses in peace. If they decide to run away, well, that is up to them.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, it is a well-known fact that eight people died as a result of the brutal beating in Mansa. Could the hon. Minister state whether the Government has started the process of compensating the families whose relatives died during the same fracas.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that eight people died during the fracas. The question was about the number of people that died as a result of being shot at by the police. So, if the hon. Member is aware of the eight people who died, he can give me the details when he so desires.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, as a consequence of the riots in Mansa and other parts of the country, can the hon. Minister confirm that this Government has procured two high pressure canons and that seven are on the way. Can he, further ,state which country they are coming from.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, it is not as a result of the riots in Mansa that the Government is buying what the hon. Member has mentioned. That is part of our everyday responsibility. We will definitely have equipment to deal with people who do not abide by the law.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

BUS STATION AND MARKETS OPERATIONS

509. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing why political parties had been allowed to interfere with the operations of the bus stations and markets, especially in Lusaka contrary to the law.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Muteteka): Mr Speaker, first and foremost, the markets and bus stations are non-partisan. The Lusaka City Council (LCC) is running these places for the benefit of marketeers, commuters and drivers. In accordance with the Markets and Bus Stations Act, 2007, local authorities are mandated to administer these public utilities.
 
Mr Speaker, the Markets and Bus Stations Act, 2007, under Section 5 (1), states that:

 “all markets and bus stations shall be under the control of local authorities having jurisdiction in the area in which they are situated.”

Sir, furthermore, in Section 34 (4) the Act states that, “after the commencement of this Act, any market association operating within a market that is under the management of a local authority or management board shall since operate within that market.”

 Mr Speaker, this proviso takes care of those associations or political parties that existed in the markets before this Act was enacted. Any association office or political wing is merely for membership recruitment and organisation purposes and not to run the markets per se and cannot be cited as interference in the operations of these public structures.

Hon. Member: Question!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, the Government has not permitted nor has any local authority requested for permission to have any political party establish an office within a market. Therefore, if any political wing is occupying space within a market, it is doing so illegally and the respective local authority has been mandated to have this wing of party structure removed from the market premises because no one is above the law regardless of political affiliation.

Interruptions

Mr Muteteka: Sir, I, therefore, urge all councillors and hon. Members of Parliament, especially those from Lusaka that are members of different political parties, to promote political harmony at our public amenities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that the cadres move around the markets and bus stations. Can he explain to us what impression he thinks this gives to the passengers and the public as a whole?

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member’s observation could be right but, as I have explained, no one is above the law. If at all the members of the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) are proud of their progressive party and can wear their regalia publicly like others do, they can go ahead. We have seen members of the Catholic Church, United Church of Zambia and other church organisations dressed in their uniforms because they are proud of their associations. Therefore, if the MMD can wear their regalia publicly, it means that their party is progressive and that they are proud of it. So, they are actually recruiting members at the bus stops and markets though they do not have offices there. They are not above the law.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, while the MMD cadres put on their regalia at these bus stations and markets, are they allowed to build an office on which they write MMD in block letters …

Mrs Phiri: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane: …. and even hoist a flag as is the case at the Intercity Bus Terminus?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: What is the House going to do now, to listen to formal business or points of order? My choice and my ruling is that the Business of the House takes precedence over points of order. 

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I have already addressed this concern. For the sake of the hon. Member, however, I wish to state that there are members of different churches at our bus stations and markets who wear uniforms.

Interruptions

Mr Muteteka: The difficulty here is, maybe, because the MMD members have uniforms and other parties do not, hence they have nothing to wear.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker is the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing aware that other than their presence at the Inter City Bus Terminus, cadres have gone further to collect the levy which the LCC is supposed to collect? 

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, the issue at hand here is the running of markets and bus stations. Our Constitution protects the right of association and assembly. We have been very clear in our answer that such activities are merely for membership recruitment and not to run bus stations or markets.

Ms Kapata: But they are collecting money.

Dr Chituwo: As far as we are concerned, the revenue that is due to the council is being collected. There are managers of bus stations and markets and so moneys that transporters pay are receipted. Beyond this, as far as we are concerned, we cannot say that anyone has taken over this responsibility from the councils.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.{mospagebreak}
 
Dr Scott (Lusaka central): Mr Speaker, it is well-known and established and I have witnessed it myself that, every Friday, at the Inter City Bus Terminus in Lusaka, the MMD cadres, who are in charge of that place, force all the call-boys and other people conducting business there to wear a sort of underpant sized piece of cloth, …

Laughter

Dr Scott: …which seems to belong to the MMD. If anybody does not wear it, he/she is not allowed to conduct business.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Scott: Is this constitutional?

Hon. MMD Member: Yes!

Mr Nsanda: Kuya bebele!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, we have been clear in our response. Therefore, if what has been presented by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central is true, then all it depicts is the enthusiasm …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Chituwo: … of our cadres and how proud they are of their regalia.

Interruptions

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, by law, they are not allowed to intimidate anyone. All they are doing is showing off and asking anyone who is free to join the party …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Chituwo: …because we are a credible party. That is all that is happening.

Mr Speaker, the functions of the bus stations and markets are going on as per the law that we have put in place.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister admit that the money which is supposed to be given to the youth for empowerment has been used to buy buses for Sichilima and Mubika Mubika, forcing the cadres, who are supposed to be empowered …

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Mr Nsanda: … to do business, to go and steal money at the bus stations.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

You are deliberately irrelevant.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The hon. Member for Chasefu may proceed.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, the LCC is responsible for running markets in the city of Lusaka. Is the hon. Minister in a position to know whether the people running the council have authorised political parties to operate from markets?

Hon. Opposition Members: He is aware!

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, we have been very clear and categorical in our answer. This situation can be likened to evangelism.

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: Anyone who is in the business of recruiting must go out and attract people that are not members …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: … so that they become so.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Chituwo: For the sake of emphasis, the LCC is still in charge of markets and bus stations.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, by law, we only have one flag in this country as a national symbol. Therefore, why should we have other flags bearing the face of the Head of State in markets and bus stations? This simply shows that we have MMD …

Mr Speaker: Order! 

You are debating.

The hon. Minister may proceed.

Hon. MMD Members: Boma ni Boma!

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, this is just a sign of how proud of their party …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Chituwo: … the MMD members are.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: We do recognise that, in important designated areas, there is only one State flag. However, there is no law that prohibits anybody from identifying oneself with what he or she believes in. It is for the sake of identity that we see this kind of enthusiasm. In fact, it is spreading throughout the country. This is a sign that really we are getting there. So, the Opposition must watch out.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Misapa (Mporokoso): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I appreciate the response given by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. However, can he clearly inform this House what law the Zambia National Marketeers Association (ZANAMA) is applying to operate from Chisokone Market where its headquarters are?

Mr Speaker: Order! 

This question is not related at all, but if the hon. Minister so wishes, he can deal with it.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, for the sake of clarity, we stated in our response and I want to emphasise that ZANAMA is not running the market. ZANAMA offices are there to recruit members and to look after the welfare of their members. The two, therefore, are completely different even though they are complementary.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, during the time of the late President Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace, and, indeed, during the time Hon. Masebo was Minister of Local Government and Housing, all these things we are talking about now were not tolerated. Why is it that, all of a sudden, we are tolerating all this nonsense?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

You shall withdraw the last word.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the last word and replace it with ‘’totally unacceptable activities’.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I have stated here that nobody is above the law. Time and again, we have explained that everyone is free under our Constitution to belong to or associate with any organisation and what those young men and women are doing is exercising their freedom of association. They are not interfering with anybody.

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah! They are.

Dr Chituwo: Therefore, Mr Speaker, there is a law on running and managing markets and the councils are doing that.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, may I find out …

Mr Speaker: Next Question on the Order Paper.

Laughter

FUNCTIONS OF HEAD OF STATE

510. Mr Lubinda (Kabwata) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice:

(a) whether the late President Mwanawasa had legally delegated the functions of Head of State before he left for Egypt on his last trip in 2008; and

(b) if so, under which Gazette Notice the functions had been delegated and, to whom.

Mr Speaker: The House appears to be in an unusually jubilant mood this afternoon.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Mr Chilembo): Mr Speaker, the late President Mwanawasa, SC. did legally delegate the functions of Head of State before he left for Egypt on his last trip in 2008.

Under Gazette Notice No. 307 of 2008, the functions of the President were delegated to His Honour, Mr Rupiah Banda, MP, and Vice-President of the Republic of Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

It may help, unless that is what follows, to read the actual Gazette Notice. Do you have it?

Mr Chilembo: Yes, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Read it.

Mr Chilembo: Gazette Notice No. 307 of 2008, the Statutory Functions Act, the Statutory Functions of the President (Delegation) Notice, 2008:

“It is notified for public information that in exercise of the powers vested in Article 39(1) of the Constitution of the Zambia, His Excellency the President did delegate the functions of President to Hon. Mr Rupiah Banda, MP, and Vice-President of the Republic of Zambia from 28th June to 2nd July, 2008.

“Dr J. L. Kanganja, Secretary to the Cabinet.”

With your permission, Sir, I will lay the paper on the Table.

Mr Chilembo laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I want to appreciate the stammering by the hon. Deputy Minister when reading that Gazette Notice.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Lubinda: May I find out the circumstances under which the then Minister of Defence acted during the early part of the absence of the late President because there is evidence of the fact that Hon. Mpombo was acting …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … when His Honour the Vice-President, Mr Rupiah Banda, then, was actually attending the burial of his late mother. Can we know the circumstances and what Gazette Notice was issued to that effect?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, that statement is totally false. There was an instrument of delegation of power to the then Vice-President which I saw, as Minister of Justice.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This was the document which was gazetted here. There is no document in existence which refers to Mr Mpombo acting as Head of State. There is nothing like that. It is totally false.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

LOCAL AUTHORITIES’ PERFORMANCE

511. Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) how effective and efficient, in terms of performance, the local authorities were countrywide;

(b) whether local authorities countrywide were performing their functions as by law authorised in terms of service delivery; and

(c) whether communities were happy with the performance of their local councils.

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that most councils are making every effort to perform under challenging circumstances with limited financial and human resources, among others. However, there is room for services to be enhanced.

One of the challenges for councils and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is the absence of a system of regular performance assessment of councils. This has been mainly attributed to the shortage of staff and funding for the monitoring activities under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and the Provincial Administration offices.

However, the ministry has already started the preparation of a system for the regular assessment of councils’ performance. The ministry is aware that allocation of part of grants to councils should be based on performance so that councils can be motivated to make systematic improvements on their performance year by year. Once this system is put in place, the ministry can provide this august House with more concrete data on the performance of each council.

Sir, allow me to remind the august House that there are mechanisms and frameworks that are being implemented in order to improve the performances and capacities of councils. The Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) which has the mandate to place officers, who have suitable and appropriate qualifications, for appointments to local authorities has already begun the process of proper placement of manpower and expects a more efficient service to be provided as a result. In addition, the Baseline Survey of Local Government Capacities is underway, and the Comprehensive Capacity Development Programme for councils will soon be developed based on findings from the survey.

Mr Speaker, not all the sixty-three functions stipulated in Section 61 of the Local Government Act, Cap. 281 Second Schedule, are being performed by councils. Over time, the local authorities have been performing part of the Government’s functions in collaboration with the private sector. This is evident in the areas of waste disposal, water and sewage and other public amenities.

In order to ensure that the local authorities perform their mandate, from 2012, the Government intends to undertake sector devolution, which will contribute to effective and efficient service delivery.

Mr Speaker, some communities within the jurisdiction of local authorities may not be satisfied with the performance of their local authorities.

The ministry believes that to satisfy more communities, it is crucial to enhance transparency and accountability of local authorities towards communities as well as create more opportunities for communities to participate in the decision-making process.

Sir, in this regard, the ministry has been preparing the establishment of area development committees at sub-district level. It is expected that communities and local authorities will better interact through the area development committees.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister explain to this House and the nation that hon. Members of Parliament have no responsibility to mend potholes as that is the purpose of local councils.

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I have indicated that we are improving the capacities in the local authorities and, once we do so, through the LGSC, the service delivery will also be improved. We have realised that the performance in some councils is questionable because some people are not in places where they qualify to be. That is why the Government is ahead of things and has brought back the LGSC to ensure that some complaints which should be attended to are dealt with accordingly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that all councils are trying to be efficient, under difficult financial circumstances. In contrast, on three occasions that His Excellency the President has been on the Copperbelt, he has claimed that councils have been failing to perform despite being given a lot of money by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. May I find out from the hon. Minister why His Excellency the President misled the nation for political gain with impunity?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

As you all know, the Head of State has no seat in this Chamber and, therefore, you cannot direct a question to him. The Executive seated here comprises the personalities through whom the President speaks. Your question is faulty. I have difficulties in allowing the hon. Minister to answer it because you are asking the President and not the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing.

Will the hon. Member for Itezhi-tezhi ask a question.

Mr Kambwili: Aah!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Yes!

Laughter

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, over the years, the Government has spent billions of kwacha to organise the Decentralisation Policy in the councils but, to date, nothing has happened. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why this Government has failed to implement this policy so that the councils can serve the Zambian people.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is implementing the Decentralisation Implementation Plan (DIP) in which there is a clear roadmap on what needs to be done prior to the complete decentralisation which is by devolution. What we have done, in the past, is sensitise our various communities.

Secondly, we have had to look at the financial manuals. Thirdly, there is the aspect of devolution of functions from sector ministries, an exercise which is on-going currently. I would like to assure my colleague that it is only in 2012 that many aspects of decentralisation will be implemented. Prior to that, there is only preparation.

Lastly, I would like to mention that decentralisation is not like an electric switch which goes on and off, but truly a complex issue that requires various steps because the players are many.

Hon. Member: He does not know.

Dr Chituwo: In this process, you also need to have the mindset change with regard to the powers and functions that will be devolved to the councils. I would like to assure my colleague that this is in the process and our people will finally get involved in actual decision-making when the decentralisation implementation starts.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, it is very well-known that one of the biggest challenges for the councils countrywide is limited funding or lack of financial resources to these councils. That being the case, what are the long-term plans for your ministry to improve the funding base or the availability of funds to the councils?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, while acknowledging the low revenue base, particularly for the rural-based councils, we strongly believe that when we have qualified staff in various positions, they will be able to prudently use even the so-called insufficient resources that are allocated to them.

Mr Speaker, the prudent use of resources is the starting point because even if you give billions of kwacha to a management that cannot account for it, the services would not reach the people. The starting point is what we have started working on, that is, ensuring that we have the right people who are qualified in the right positions and working on the systems because without that, all the other resources might go to waste.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, in part (b) of the question, the hon. Member for Kwacha wishes to find out whether the functions of councils as established by law are being implemented. In his response, the hon. Minister stated that the sixty-three functions provided for in Cap. 281 of the Laws of Zambia are not being fully implemented by councils. In effect, does that not mean that this Government is in breach of the law by not ensuring that councils fulfil the functions that are provided for in the statute that authorises them to perform those sixty-three functions?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, we were very clear in our answer that, of the sixty-three functions, some are being performed directly by the councils themselves. Others are being performed through partnerships or by franchising with the private sector. Therefore, when there are some omissions, it is not that the law is being breached, but simply that, at that particular time, either the human or financial resources are not there to carry out that particular function. However, as I have stated, in the area of partnership, we are able to ask the private sector to assist as we have done in solid waste management and water supply and sanitation.

Mr Speaker, when that is done, it means we are doing our best to provide services to our people.

I thank you, Sir.

HEALTH CENTRES IN KWACHA

512. Mr L. J. Mulenga asked the Minister of Health:

(a) how many health centres were in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency as of April, 2011;

(b) of the centres above, how many had functioning maternity wards; and

(c) what the total cost of constructing the wards at (b) had been.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Kalila): Mr Speaker, as of April, 2011, there were six health centres in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency and these are:

(i) Kwacha;

(ii) Bulangililo;

(iii) Ipusukilo;

(iv) Riverside;

(v) Nkana East, which is under construction currently and is at roof level; and

(vi) Mwaiseni.

Mr Speaker, none of these health centres mentioned have functional maternity wards, but they have provisions for delivery services. Since none of the health centres above had maternity wards, no expenditure was incurred in their construction. However, the cost of constructing a maternity ward at a heath centre is estimated at K200 million.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, arising from the answer that has been given by the hon. Minister, may I find out from him if he is aware that Kwacha and Bulangililo clinics have maternity wards that were constructed under the Zambia Social Investment Fund (ZAMSIF). The equipment and everything else has been provided, but there is no personnel.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, that supplementary question is very much in line with our response that there are no functioning maternity wards currently. I am, indeed, aware that at the two centres in question, maternity centres with complete equipment exist, as he has rightly pointed out. However, due to the critical shortage of health workers, in particular midwives, these maternity wards are not operational, at the moment, and cases are referred to Buchi Main Clinic, which is very near these centres.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.
INCINERATOR CHIMNEYS

513.    Mr Mwenya asked the Minister of Health whether there were any plans to increase the number of chimneys of the incubators at the following health facilities in Kitwe:

(a) Kitwe Central Hospital; and

(b) Buchi TB Clinic.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, an incubator is a piece of equipment used in the maternity ward and does not have a chimney. An incinerator, on the other hand, is equipment or a structure which is used for incineration of medical waste.

Laughter

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, this equipment or structure normally has a chimney to draw off gaseous products of the process of incineration. The chimney for the incinerator can be extended to ensure that the noxious gases are released into the atmosphere at a higher level without causing a nuisance to the people and surrounding environment. In addition, the capacity of the incinerator can be increased by installing a bigger incineration chamber as well as increasing the incineration temperatures.

Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament meant increasing the capacity of the incinerators at the health centres in question, plans are there to build another incinerator at Kitwe Central Hospital that will have the capacity of 70 kg an hour, and this will have to be built in accordance with the specifications by the Zambia Environment Management Agency (ZEMA), formerly EnvironmentAL Council of Zambia (ECZ). There are also plans to construct an incinerator at Buchi Tuberculosis (TB) Clinic. ZEMA will have to provide specifications for the incinerator.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, arising from the answer that has been given, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister when these incinerators are going to be constructed, taking into account that, for a long time now, the people of Buchi and Kamitondo have suffered from the smell and smoke of medical waste. Could he tell us when these incinerators are going to be constructed.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is my Member of Parliament in Kitwe. As I have indicated, Kitwe Central Hospital has incinerators. One is electric while the other is not. However, it is true that the TB clinic in Buchi does not have a modern incinerator and, as we have indicated, plans are there to procure one. All we are waiting for, as stated, are specifications from ZEMA. As soon as we have these specifications, the hon. Member will see us on the ground.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the Government will start constructing these incinerators at the same time that they construct the health centres.

Mr Speaker: That question has just been answered. Nonetheless, may the hon. Minister of Health emphasise.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I would like to emphasise that, indeed, we have plans to build an incinerator at the small TB Clinic in Buchi as soon as we have the specifications from ZEMA. I cannot be any clearer than that.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, when the incinerators at Kitwe Central Hospital and Buchi do not work, which does occur, how is the waste from these institutions disposed of?

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, incineration is not the only method of waste disposal. At all these centres we also have waste pits, which we use in the unlikely event that the incinerators stop working. However, as I have already indicated, we have electric and manual incinerators at Kitwe Central Hospital. So, there is a backup system.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

CLIMATE CHANGE

514.    Mr Simama (Kalulushi) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) what the Government’s policy on procurement of motor vehicles and equipment, with regard to climate change, was; and

(b) how the policy addressed challenges of climate change.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, pollution caused by motor vehicles, which contributes to climate change, is regulated by the Environmental Protection and Pollution Control Act of 1990. All vehicles imported into the country have to be compliant with the provisions of the Act. All modern vehicles and equipment purchased do meet the standards provided for in the Act.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, although I appreciate that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning would be better placed to answer this question, why is it that electric utility vehicles, such as electrical pickups that one can buy from China, have a duty of 100 per cent, which is the same as any old vehicle and, in fact, the same as a Golf cart, when an obvious climate change sensitive move would be to reduce the duty? I am sorry the hon. Minister is buying blankets for his constituency in Liuwa, but, perhaps, the hon. Deputy Minister knows the answer.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! Question 514 is directed at the hon. Minister of Works and Supply and since your question refers to an entirely different hon. Minister, we have difficulties dealing with it.

ORGANIC MANURE

515. Mr Simama asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives what measures had been taken to encourage farmers to use organic manure instead of chemical fertilisers that contribute to land degradation.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mbewe): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives is aware of the benefits of using organic manure and the detrimental effects of continuous use of chemical fertilisers. The ministry, therefore, encourages farmers to use a combination of organic and inorganic fertilisers so as to increase and sustain productivity. Some of the measures that have been taken to encourage farmers to use organic manure include:

(i) making available technologies like improved varieties of sun hemp, velvet beans and agro-forest trees that can be used as green manure, through the Zambia Agriculture Research Institution (ZARI);

(ii) demonstrations to show the benefits of using organic manure in the farming system are carried out throughout the country by Camp Extension Officers;

(iii) field days are held at research stations and at on-farm field demonstration;

(iv) farmer-training programmes are  held at the farmer training centres throughout the country, where farmers are trained in sustainable agriculture, including the use of organic manure; and

(v) outreach programmes on radio, television and publications are produced to provide knowledge and information on the benefits of organic manure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, could I find out whether the Government collaborates with the Conservation Farming Unit, which is involved in the promotion of organic farming in outreach programmes, to reach the farmers through the co-operatives.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, we have involved many farmer groups, co-operatives and farmers’ associations to get engaged in conservation agriculture. This is one way we have used to ensure that farmers put in very little, but have impressive harvests.

Mr Lubinda: Conservation.

Captain Moono (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether sewage is part of organic manure. If not, why have people in Lusaka been allowed to grow vegetables such as rape around sewer ponds?

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, human waste can be used as manure. However, the condition is that it has to be treated before it can be used in those vegetable fields because without that treatment harmful effects can arise.

I thank you, Sir.

ZAMBIANS WITH ALBINO PIGMENTATION

516. Colonel Chanda asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

(a) how man Zambians with albino pigmentation had been registered as of December, 2010, province by province;

(b) how many of the above were school going, by gender;

(c) whether any form of assistance had been given to the albinos and, if so, what type;

(d) how many cases of assault or murder of albinos for ritual purposes had been reported in Zambia; and

(e) whether the Government had taken any measures to protect the interests of albinos and, if so, what these measures were.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Malwa): Mr Speaker, according to figures compiled by the National Voice for Albinism (NAVA), as at 31st December, 2010, there were 2,123 persons with albinism in Zambia. The table below shows the distribution province by province:

Province No. of Persons with Albinism

Lusaka 367

Copperbel 422

Central 157

Western  76

Luapula  124

Northern 215

Southern 371

North-Western 176

Eastern 215

Total 2,123

Mr Speaker, out of the figure above, 1,420 were male while 703 were female. A total of 401 albinos were of school going age, comprising 225 boys and 176 girls.

Mr Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia treats albinos as citizens and accords them the necessary assistance as that given to other citizens who are in need of assistance. In addition, the Government, through the Zambia Institute of Special Education (ZAMISE), under the Ministry of Education, assists children with albinism in Government schools with the provision of sunscreens, a special skin lotion used by albinos to prevent them from suffering from skin cancer arising out of sun burns, and sunglasses to reduce the intake of light in their eyes. This is given free of charge through NAVA. The MMD Government now intends to extend this service to community schools and private schools which have albino pupils.

Mr Speaker, there are no known cases of assault or murder of albinos for ritual purposes which have been reported in Zambia to date.

Mr Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia takes the same measures of protecting all its citizens, as is enshrined in the Constitution of Zambia and through the law enforcement agencies. The same is the case when it also comes to safeguarding the lives of albinos. Furthermore, the MMD Government has encouraged concerned citizens to form organisations to champion the welfare and interest of albinos like in other countries.

Furthermore, the MMD Government has encouraged citizens to form organisations to champion the welfare and interests of albinos like in other countries. The Government has not hesitated to register non-governmental organisations (NGOs) wishing to advocate for the rights of albinos.

Mr Speaker, in 2010, for instance, our hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services registered NAVA, which is now the leading NGO in the promotion of the welfare of albinos. In November, 2010, a national workshop on albinism was held at the Fairview Hotel in Lusaka at which a number of resolutions were proposed to the Government. We have already implemented some of them while we are still studying the other ones.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, in 2008, there were sixty cases of ritual murders of albinos in Tanzania. Have we taken any steps, hon. Minister, to ensure that there is no spillover of such occurrences in our country because people presume that albinos are very valuable in terms of monetary gains?

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Kaingu): Mr Speaker, our answer to that question is very clear since we are a Christian nation which values life. This Government protects its people and does not interfere with what is happening across its borders. It is important that this nation continues to be governed by people who believe in Christianity like those in the MMD because if we take a risk and bring in people who believe in homosexuality or rituals, we will put the lives of our people at risk, especially the albinos.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, there are some business houses which are helping these albinos, especially in the procurement of the sunscreen lotion which is very expensive. I would like to find out if this Government has any incentives to give to these business entities so that they can give more to the albinos who really need the sunscreen lotion.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, we do not know of any organisations helping albinos with sunscreens or sunglasses. As we have stated in our answer, all the efforts to take care of albinos are being undertaken by this Government. The creams and sunglasses which are given to the albinos which are known to us so far are distributed by this Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: On who?

Mr Speaker: It is quite obvious that the hon. Member for Munali is not satisfied with the answer which has been given by the hon. Minister. However, we shall have problems if we start allowing hon. Members to raise points of order each time a question has been answered. You may take advantage of the hon. Member for Nchanga.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that there were no …

Mrs Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order on the Minister of Community Development and Social Services. Is the hon. Minister in order to insinuate that I have created the idea that there are some NGOs that help albinos with sunscreen lotions? In fact, I did not mention sunglasses and I can even cite an example of a private school which gives sunscreen lotions to albinos, Lulu’s Little School. Is he in order to claim that it is only the Government which is helping the albinos, and yet there are other organisations that help them? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: My serious ruling is that any organisation which delivers a service that assists, in any way, our albino community should inform the hon. Minister responsible so that he may take note of what is happening. It is just a matter of communicating and that is all.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister indicated that there were no cases recorded of assaults or murders of albinos in Zambia. I wish to find out from him whether the Government monitors the lives of albinos by way of recording every death of the 1,400 registered albinos so that we are sure that each death is natural and the burial is conducted in a normal manner unlike what happened in Tanzania.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, may I take an advantage of that question to correct the hon. Member that the registered number of albinos is not 1,400, but 2,123. As far as we are concerned, we have been working with our police officers and, so far, there is no known case that relates to ritual deaths involving albinos. However, if the hon. Member, who is from the Patriotic Front (PF), believes in rituals and knows of any death that involve rituals, let …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, time and again, presiding officers have guided hon. Members to be factual and not to use this House as a political anthill. Is the hon. Minister in order to state in this House that the PF party believes in ritual killings without laying evidence to that effect? Is he in order to turn this very honourable House into a political anthill?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! Let me pass my ruling.

The hon. Member for Kabwata has raised a point of order which I have chosen to sustain. There has been no evidence of a statement made by any political party, including the PF, that such and such a party believes in ritual killings or murders. Therefore, the hon. Minister is out of order.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The use of phrases such as ‘anthill politics’ is out of order. Look up your records and see what that means. The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr V. Mwale: The cobra is a ritual!

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, as far as the Government is concerned, it is not aware of any ritual killings involving albinos. If Hon. Simuusa is aware of any such deaths, which could have happened within the circles that he associates with, he can bring them to our attention so that we can put them on record.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

DAR-ES-SALAAM PORT

517. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport when the clearing and registration of motor vehicles that were imported through the port of Dar-es-Salaam in Tanzania would be decentralised for the benefit of the northern part of Zambia.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, Nakonde as a border entry point has a high frequency of motor vehicles entering the country through it. However, most of these vehicles are destined for other parts of the country. The distribution of the population of Zambian vehicles in terms of the residence of their owners is as follows:

Province  Percentage

Lusaka over 50

Copperbelt over 35

Other towns 15 
put together

Total 100

Mr Speaker, therefore, with a population of 15 per cent of vehicles for other towns, including Nakonde, it means that Nakonde, as a town, does not warrant the establishment of a Road Traffic and Safety Agency (RTSA) vehicle registration centre.

As for the clearing of customs duty on imported vehicles, this is a mandate of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), which is currently clearing motor vehicles for customs duty purposes at Nakonde.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister state the provinces in which registration and clearance is done out of the nine provinces in the country?

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, motor vehicle registration is currently being done in Livingstone, Lusaka, and Ndola. The reason this is the case is the proximity to other agencies that are important in the registration of motor vehicles such as Interpol whose offices are found in the three locations mentioned above.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, at a point of entry like Nakonde, when the taxes are paid for a vehicle, a duty and customs clearing certificate is issued. Why is it not possible for the Government to ensure that as soon as a clearance certificate is issued for a motor vehicle as well as other formalities are completed, a motor vehicle is registered at Nakonde unlike the situation obtaining now where a vehicle moves for one year without a number plate?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, clearly, the hon. Member for Gwembe was not attentive when I was giving the answer to the hon. Member for Chilubi’s question. The registration of motor vehicles is not done by one agency only. Other agencies, namely, Interpol are also involved. The two agencies, RTSA and Interpol, work hand in hand to ensure that the registration of motor vehicle takes place. That is the reason, at the moment, motor vehicles are not registered in Nakonde.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is in the Government to improve on the governance of this country. If the Government has been able to reduce the trading licences, why not do exactly what the hon. Member for Gwembe has asked for so that when people buy vehicles in Nakonde, they can have them registered there? That is the job of an hon. Minister. Why is the ministry unable to do that?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Mbabala should know that it is not cost efficient to do that.

I thank you, Sir.

ACP-EU ENERGY FACILITY GRANT

 518. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development which projects countrywide had benefited from the grouping of the African, Caribbean and Pacific states and the European Union (ACP-EU) energy facility grant of 10 million euros approved in 2007.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Imasiku): Mr Speaker, I am happy to report that the application to access funds available under the ACP-EU grant of 10 million euros was a Government-driven initiative spearheaded by the Rural Electrification Authority (REA).

REA submitted an application to the EU for financing in October, 2006, and, in 2007, the proposal was, in principle, approved for funding. After a protracted exchange of information, the EU was finally able to sign a financing agreement with my Government in March, 2008 wherein the EU agreed to provide 9,980,750 million euros to finance two grid extension projects. The two grid extension projects involve the electrification of Mumbwa Big Concession Farm Block and Kaoma TBZ Farm Block.

Mr Speaker, after exhausting the lengthy tender procedures, I am happy to inform the hon. Member that the procurement of the supervision consultants and the works contractor was finalised in December, 2010. The two project sites were handed over to the consultants and contractor on 9th March, 2011 for the Mumbwa Big Concession Farm and on 10th March, 2011 for the Kaoma TBZ Farm Block to coincide with the end of the rainy season. Project implementation at both sites has started and is expected to be completed by the middle of 2012.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister categorically state the criterion used in arriving at the provinces where these projects are being carried out.

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Mr Speaker, the EU and the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through REA, exchanged information after which it was agreed that they would finance the two projects in the Mumbwa Big Concession as well as the Kaoma TBZ Farm Blocks.

NORTHERN PROVINCE SCHOOL DESKS

519. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Education:

(a) how many desks had been procured for the Northern Province schools as of December, 2009; and

(b) how many desks had been sent to the province as of December, 2010, district by district.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Dr Kawimbe): Mr Speaker, 71,950 school desks were procured and sent to the Northern Province as of December, 2009, as follows:

 District No. of Desks

 Chilubi 3, 472

 Chinsali 7, 593

 Isoka 6, 422

 Kaputa 3, 679 

 Kasama 7, 634

 Luwingu 5, 445

 Mbala 8, 765

 Mpika 9, 640

 Mporokoso 6, 557

 Mpulungu 3, 046

 Mungwi 5, 169

 Nakonde 4, 528

Mr Speaker, 10, 608 school desks were procured and sent to the Northern Province as of December, 2010, district by district, as follows:

 District No. of Desks

Chilubi 741

 Chinsali 1, 462
  
 Isoka 1, 096

 Kasama 896

 Luwingu 1, 071

 Mbala 1, 207

 Mpika 1, 676

 Mporokoso 1, 003

 Mungwi 698

 Nakonde 758

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister state the total number of schools that benefited from the two allocations in the period stated.

Dr Kawimbe: Mr Speaker, clearly, that is a new question that demands great detail.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Members should try to keep time up to the very end of the session otherwise the indication would be that we are too tired and that has its own implications.

Mr Hamusonde: Madam Speaker, I would like to know why the Government finds it difficult to procure enough desks for schools.

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Speaker, this year, 2011, the Ministry of Education has plans to procure over 200, 000 desks and this is a continuing programme. We want to make sure that, in the course of the shortest possible time, all our pupils across the land sit on comfortable desks as they learn.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central): Madam Speaker, desks are very important in the teaching and learning process and the ministry has procured a lot of them. However, I would like to know what measures have been put in place to ensure that these desks are durable.

The Minister of Education (Ms Siliya): Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Education and, indeed, the Government continue to remain committed to ensuring the provision of an enabling learning environment in the classroom. I suppose this is why some hon. Members on your left are surprised that the Government is able to provide such a high intensity level of development, including the provision of desks in schools, in a very short space of time.

Madam Speaker, this year, we expect to spend close to K200 billion on the procurement of extra desks so that we reduce the deficit. With this huge investment in desks, it is important that we buy quality desks and also that we try to include, in the procurement process, local supply of desks so that there are backward linkages in terms of providing wealth and jobs for Zambians as we try to attend to the education delivery issues.

Additionally, there must be awareness that schools do not just belong to the Ministry of Education, but to the teachers, the students, the parents and the community at large who have to look after this investment that we are making in our schools.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

2010 EXAMINATION PAPERS

520. Mr Mwango (on behalf of Mr D. Mwila) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) how much money the Examinations Council of Zambia (ECZ) had spent on printing examination papers in 2010 for the following examination classes:

(i) Grade 7;

(ii) Grade 9; and

(iii) Grade 12;

(b) which company had been contracted to print the examination papers above; and

(c) which company had been contracted to print the examination papers for 2011.

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Speaker, the amount of money the ECZ spent on security printing, packaging and delivery of examination question papers, in 2010, per level is as follows:
 Amount Amount
 (£ )  (K) 

Grade7 379,267.44 2,926,522,847.29

Grade 9 528,837.15 4,080,640,258.63

Grade 12 295,022.58 2,276,468,309.09

Madam Speaker, these amounts include the cost of printing, packaging and delivery up to the ECZ headquarters in Lusaka.

Madam Speaker, the company that was contracted for security printing, packaging and delivering the question papers for 2010 was Stephen Austin & Sons Limited based in the United Kingdom (UK).

Madam Speaker, the company that has been contracted for security printing, packaging and delivering the examination question papers for 2011 is, again, Stephen Austin & Sons Limited.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwango: Madam Speaker, this company name sounds like it is a private company and not a government institution. May I know why we prefer international institutions printing examination papers for our children instead of local printing companies such as the Government printers?

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Speaker, electronic centering is the main focus when we pick a company to print our examination papers. Let me explain a little bit about what electronic centering means. This is a facility whereby once you press a button to start printing the examination papers, there is no human contact up to the point where the examination papers are packaged and ready for shipping. Therefore, there is no opportunity for anybody to pick a copy of the examination paper. This facility, unfortunately, is not available locally. It is only available in the UK.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwenya: Madam Speaker, why has the Government not taken an initiative to procure such equipment instead of spending billions and billions of kwacha yearly?

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Speaker, my plea is that, when we come to request for funds to procure this equipment to have examination papers printed locally, the hon. Member will be supportive of that budget request.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, following the fact that  a Grade 7 Certificate is no longer a relevant document in securing employment in this country, when is the ministry going to do away with the Grade 7 examinations to cut down on costs?

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Speaker, clearly, that is a new question.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Madam Speaker, in the hon. Minister’s response to the previous supplementary question, he urged the hon. Member for Nkana to support the ministry when it brings the budget for this equipment to the House. Is he, therefore, saying that the printing of these papers is free of charge where it is done? If it is not, why do we not use the same money that is being spent on printing to procure the same machinery?

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, everyone is aware that we have, in the Ministry of Education, the Zambia Education Publishing House. Under normal circumstances, we would expect that a lot of the printing in the ministry would be done in that outfit but, unfortunately, not. While the printing business in this country is increasing, this Government-owned entity is failing to be a going concern. Currently, it has a lot of problems and, as a ministry, we are trying to analyse and see what possible solutions can be provided so that this institution can be recapitalised or have a partnership formed. Until those decisions are made, examinations will continue and we have to find somewhere to print the examination papers.
 
Madam Speaker, this is why we put international tenders out there. In this case, the company that won the tender was a British company. We have had examination papers printed in South Africa before, but we noticed some security concerns. This is why, for the past two years, examination papers have been printed in the UK. We are very aware of the fact that this money is being externalised. If it was possible to do it locally, it would have made economic and business sense. However, it does not necessarily have to be the Government itself to do that. We, as a Government, can do it in partnership with any private sector institution that has the capacity. So, maybe, this is an opportunity for those that want to get into this business.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

___________

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General for 2008 on the accounts of parastatal bodies, for the Fifth Session of the Tenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 1st June, 2011.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Yes, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hachipuka: Madam Speaker, your Committee, in line with its terms of reference as specified in the Standing Orders, considered the report of the Auditor-General for 2008 on the accounts of the parastatal bodies. Allow me to start by commending the Auditor-General for the commendable work her office continues to do in ensuring accountability and transparency in the Public Service.

As Leader of Government Business in the House, I hope that His Honour the Vice-President will listen.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: Madam Speaker, a total of twenty-two institutions were cited in the Auditor-General’s Report, but as hon. Members might have noticed, only twenty-one institutions appeared before your Committee, following the change of ownership of the Zambia Telecommunications Company (Zamtel).

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes, from the outset, that, in general terms, parastatal bodies have continued to perform poorly in as far as adhering to financial regulations and accounting procedures is concerned. Particularly, your Committee expresses concern at the continued failure by the Chief Executive Officers of the cited parastatal bodies to abide by the requirements of financial regulations and accounting procedures in the management of funds. Your Committee notes, for example, that guidelines pertaining to vouching of expenditures have continued to be flouted by most institutions. Among the major culprits on this score are the University of Zambia (UNZA) and the Judiciary, …

Hon. UPND Members: Ma lawyers!

Mr Hachipuka: … that had no documents to support expenditure of up to K7 billion …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Hachipuka: … and K4.8 billion respectively.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is uncomfortable with this state of affairs because what this means is that the Office of the Auditor-General was not able to scrutinise the missing documents. Forty-seven years after independence, we still have a problem in finding supporting documents for payments made on behalf of Zambians.

Madam, your Committee also sadly notes the growing tendency by some institutions not to follow laid- down regulations on banking of receipted funds, resulting in delayed banking of up to 500 days in some cases. This is one-and-a-half years …

Interruptions

Mr Hachipuka: … of a Government institution holding on to moneys belonging to the State.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is concerned that if this situation continues unchecked, and it can only be checked by the Government, it will lead to rampant abuse of public funds through teeming and lading. Your Committee, therefore, implores controlling officers to put in place internal controls to correct the situation and ensure that disciplinary action is instituted against officers responsible for delayed banking without any reasonable excuse.

Madam Speaker, another challenge faced by most bodies that were audited is the failure to prepare financial statements. This has continued to be a worrying trend in Zambia involving such entities as the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), Times of Zambia, Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH), the Judiciary and the National Airports Corporation (NAC). Your Committee is perturbed by this state of affairs because failure to have in place audited financial statements resulted in the Auditor-General failing to ascertain the financial position and performance of these institutions.

In the same vein, it was difficult on our part, as legislators, to assess the stewardship of management teams in these institutions in the absence of financial statements and annual reports. I wish to repeat myself; it was difficult, as legislators, to assess the stewardship of management teams in these institutions in the absence of financial statements and annual reports.

Madam Speaker, your Committee concurs with the submissions by the Secretary to the Treasury that failure to prepare these statements is a sign of poor corporate governance, lack of supervision and laxity on the part of the leadership in these entities. Your Committee observes that this matter should be addressed without further delay and the Government is strongly urged to expedite the finalisation of the State-owned Enterprises Act through which it is hoped parastatal bodies will be properly monitored.

Madam Speaker, another thorny issue, which your Committee observes, is the growing number of loss- making companies. Prominent in this category are companies such as the Chambishi Water and Sewerage Company, ZNBC, the Tanzania-Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) Pipelines, Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) and Zambia Railways Limited. The concern of your Committee is whether these parastatal bodies will remain at the forefront of effective operation to fulfill their necessary mandates. Your Committee observes that this matter should also be addressed through the implementation of aggressive turn-around measures and urges that the proposed State-owned Enterprises Act be expeditiously finalised and brought to Parliament.

Madam Speaker, as a direct result of the above, your Committee observes that there is an increasing number of institutions failing to remit statutory contributions to the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and National Pensions Scheme Authority (NPSA). Concerned institutions in this are UNZA, with outstanding remissions of K211 billion; the NCZ, with over K123 billion, while the Judiciary has outstanding amounts of up to K16 billion. Many other institutions have outstanding remittances averaging over K1 billion each. There are measures of governance. So, if we are governing these institutions, why are they failing? 

Madam Speaker, the worry of your Committee is that if this matter is not urgently addressed, these institutions will accrue penalties that will be too huge to offset. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Secretary to the Treasury takes concrete steps to assist parastatal bodies to clear the huge backlog while the institutions concerned should endeavour to remain current with remittances.

Madam Speaker, allow me to touch on issues that your Committee found to be unique to specific institutions. Firstly, let me talk about the failure by UNZA to pay terminal benefits to the tune of K187.3 billion. This is a very serious problem that must be addressed urgently. Your Committee was informed by the Secretary to the Treasury that this situation has arisen because the conditions of service set by the university have far outgrown the capacity of the institution to pay. I think that we should not just sit like lame ducks. Someone must intervene and do something about this. Your Committee takes note that to address this challenge, UNZA is only employing people on contract basis until the outstanding amounts are dismantled. However, who will dismantle them? Where will the money come from? Someone has to answer this. 

Madam Speaker, your Committee urges the Government, through the Secretary to the Treasury, to step up monitoring mechanisms so that other parastatal bodies do not find themselves in this unfortunate situation.

The last issue I wish to talk about is the handling of assets that were forfeited to the State by the Task Force on Corruption. Madam Speaker, your Committee is perturbed that the DGH Poly Products, Motor City in Lusaka, former United Bus Company of Zambia (UBZ) premises and Ndola Trust School in Ndola, have not been disposed of because Cabinet approval is still being awaited. The main worry of your Committee is that despite the assets being run as going concerns, no agreements have been signed with those running them. This has resulted in loss of revenue to the Government. The Secretary to the Cabinet is, therefore, urged to ensure that a decision on the status of these properties is taken without further delay. In the meantime, agreements should be entered into, detailing how the proceeds that are coming from the running of the properties can be shared with the Government.

In conclusion, allow me to say that the parastatal system remains the best avenue for the Government to participate in public affairs in an economy like ours, where there are bound to be market failures. What the Government should endeavour to do is to put people in management who are able to turn around these entities so that they can fulfil their respective mandates.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of your Committee, I wish to express gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk for the support rendered to us when considering the report of the Auditor-General for 2008 despite a three-year lapse on the accounts of parastatals.

I thank the Secretary to the Treasury, controlling officers, chairpersons and other members of the boards of directors and management teams of the institutions that were audited for their co-operation.

Your Committee also acknowledges the valuable input from the Office of the Auditor-General and that of the Accountant-General when considering submissions from the witnesses.

Finally, Madam, I wish to thank sincerely the Members of your Committee for allowing me to lead them, this year, and for their unwavering commitment to duty which allowed us to accomplish the tasks that were before us.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr V. Mwale: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam, I beg to second the Motion urging this House to adopt the report of the Public Accounts Committee on the report of the Auditor-General for 2008 on the accounts of parastatal bodies.

Madam Speaker, the mover has highlighted the major findings of your Committee on the report of the Auditor-General on parastatal bodies and the subsequent replies from the controlling officers and management teams of the various institutions. I wish, therefore, to confine my discussion to only a few issues.

Firstly, let me comment on the difficulties faced by the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) in ensuring accountability for funds disbursed to local authorities for purposes of facilitating elections. Your Committee is concerned about the failure by the various local authorities to adhere to guidelines and regulations on the utilisation of the funds. During the period under review, for example, the ECZ disbursed a total of K109 billion which your Committee was sad to learn was subjected to all sorts of irregularities, including the following:

(i) K1.2 billion was held as unretired imprest;

(ii) K1 billion had inadequate supporting documents;

(iii) K263 million went unaccounted for; and

(iv) Fuel worth K890.4 million was unaccounted for.

Madam Speaker, this situation cannot be allowed to continue. Your Committee, therefore, recommends stern action against officers who failed to account for the funds. In stating this, your Committee is aware that the controlling officer at the ECZ cannot easily institute disciplinary action because the officers that administer the funds are not under her direct supervision. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Secretary to the Treasury to assist the ECZ in streamlining the reporting system in respect of these funds.

Madam, the mover of the Motion has bemoaned the fact that many parastatal bodies have continued to underperform. This is very sad, especially that these parastatal bodies were created to help bring about greater efficiency to Government action and ensure more speedy delivery of service. Some parastatal bodies have become so inefficient in service delivery that they have become extremely costly to maintain. Your Committee, therefore, agrees with the Secretary to the Treasury that some of these institutions need to be restructured so that they can effectively fulfil their respective mandates. There is also a need to ensure that persons selected to serve on the boards of these companies have the experience and relevant professional backgrounds to enable them add value to the institutions’ operations.

Lastly, Madam Speaker, let me touch another issue that I feel requires urgent attention. This is the ever rising debt by parastatal bodies, especially in respect of unremitted statutory obligations. As a way of illustration, during the period under review, the Auditor-General discovered that the Times of Zambia owed K247 billion while UNZA had outstanding remittances of up to K211 billion and the NCZ had K123 billion.

The worry of your Committee is that if these amounts are not urgently dismantled, the institutions will continue to suffer penalties, which will make the debt even more difficult to dismantle. Further, failure by these institutions to remit taxes to the ZRA denies the Treasury and, in turn, the Government, funds to meet the ever rising demands of national development. Your Committee, therefore, strongly urges the Government to find a lasting solution to this problem.

Lastly, Madam Speaker, let me, on behalf of your Committee, express concern at the failure by the parastatal bodies and their parent ministries to address your Committee’s recommendations. As can be seen from your Committee’s report at Appendix (1), out of 311 issues that were outstanding, only sixty-five or 20.9 per cent were resolved, leaving a balance of 246 or 79.1 per cent outstanding. Due to the passage of time, some of the recommendations of your Committee risk being overtaken by events. Your Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury to put measures in place to ensure that recommendations of your Committee are addressed in an expeditious manner. There should also be sanctions for parastatals that fail to respond to audit issues.

With these few remarks, Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor. First of all, I wish to commend the mover and seconder of the Motion.

Madam Chair …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Please, do not use the phrase “Madam Chair”.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: I beg your pardon, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, initially, it was a very good idea for the Government to do business by setting up parastatal companies. However, it became a bad one due to mismanagement. For example, if you look at most of the audit queries from most of the parastatals, you will find that if these parastatals were run as private entities, a lot of good could have come out of them. Therefore, it is important that the Government looks at these parastatals as business entities.

Madam, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has the mandate to run these parastatal companies, hence it should ensure that they are run as business entities. At the moment, the only entity which can be worth its sort is the Zambia State Insurance Corporation (ZSIC) which, I believe, at the moment, is paying dividends to the Government.

The rest still have a socialist mentality where people go into these companies because they are cadres and some of whom do not have the experience or the expertise to run the companies. They are just there to draw huge allowances and salaries which is a huge expense on the Government.

Madam Speaker, sometimes, the Government, especially in the case of the Food Reserve Agency (FRA), although there are many companies I can cite, every year, pumps in over K500 billion but, at the end of the day, that amount goes to buy stocks which are of less value. However, instead of those stocks adding value to the company or earning the company enough money to buy produce in the next season, the FRA goes back to the Government to ask for more money. The Government has a lot of obligations and the K500 billion or trillion given to the FRA can be used to tar the roads in compounds instead of the gravel, which is being put there and from which a lot of dust is raised.

Madam Speaker, instead of the people appreciating the roads, they are now complaining of the dust which is coming from there. Given more money, the Government would have, at least, tarred these roads so that the people can appreciate the services being given to them by the Government. That said, I would like to add that it is we, the politicians, who are strangling our parastatal companies. I would, therefore, like to urge the hon. Ministers who appoints boards for these parastatal organisations to appoint people who can add value to the organisations.

Madam Speaker, the example I would have wanted to give would make a lot of people cry. I will just say that we should not have political influence in these organisations. I know that a lot of us, politicians, have children who do not excel academically and cannot get jobs. If someone asked me to give an example, I would give several which are very embarrassing, indeed. There is somebody who has been given a managerial position in a very huge parastatal organisation and this position requires a person with a master’s degree. However, because this person is related to very senior people, although he does not have a degree, he has been given a managerial position, denying the job to those with degrees. This is shameful. I want someone to ask me so that I can name this person in this House.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member will debate without threatening anybody with exposure …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Only information which the hon. Member thinks is suitable is what he should give to the House.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Shakafuswa: Hon. Konga, you are the hon. Minister responsible for the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO). Therefore, you help in the cleaning up this company. At ZESCO, the appointments which are there are questionable. A number of employees have forged certificates and most of them are relatives of you, hon. Ministers.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: I can give examples …

Mr Konga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Konga: Madam Speaker, I have never risen on a point of order. Is the former Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, who is also the hon. Member of Parliament for Katuba, in order to allege that I have employed people who have forged certificates at ZESCO? I would like him to bring the evidence thereon to the House. I need your serious ruling.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The point of order is truly a serious one and the hon. Member on the Floor should remember that he should not draw, in his debate, people who are not in the House and, are, indeed, not even known by the House and may not stand here to defend themselves.

Secondly, when issues of criminality come in, the hon. Member knows exactly where they should be taken. Issues of forged certificates are of a criminal nature and this House will not go into such kind of investigations. I would like to guide that such kind of information be taken to the right wings of Government, rather than to debate them in this manner and leave the entire nation wondering regarding what is happening. It is important that what we bring here is information that can be verified and is suitable to be verified in this House, if not, we should take it to the right place.

The hon. Member may continue bearing in mind this guidance through that point of order.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, I did not say that the hon. Minister …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, I will provide the hon. Minister with the information that I have and I know he will find it relevant to pursue the matter.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

When a ruling is made, you move on without going back to tell the House what you are going to do.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, I will move to another parastatal body and this is the NCZ.

Madam Speaker, the Government is spending a lot of money on this company on litigations and other challenges. This company can be helped easily. The Government has to make a decision on whether the NCZ has to exist or not. This company was the most efficient fertiliser supplier in the last season. It beat the preferred suppliers because the order which the company was given was honoured on time. The other companies which were given tenders delayed to supply the commodity. I would like to find out why the Government chose to give an order of 35,000 metric tonnes additional fertiliser to a private company when the NCZ had the capacity to supply it. These are issues that raise a lot of questions and bring a human hand in the dealings of the Government and parastatal organisations.

Madam Speaker, as a baby of the Government, the NCZ should be helped so that it becomes viable. The NCZ Nitrate Plant is the only one in this region because the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) imports from Zimbabwe. The nitrate plant at the NCZ, with a bit of investment, can be made viable and a big market created for it because it supplies nitrates to the mines for their explosives. With a little bit of thought, that company can start to produce and Kafue can come back to life. The economic activities have gone down because of mismanagement and maladministration.

Madam Speaker, I urge the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to do something about the NCZ. I have faith in him because he is an intellectual like me, and even when he came to my constituency, he did not talk ill of me. Hon. Dr Kazonga is capable of doing a great job and I hope that he will also think of the people of Kafue by giving them concessionary orders for them to produce and supply.

I know a lot of people talk about preferring private suppliers because of the hidden hand. However, I know Hon. Dr Kazonga does not believe in hidden hands. Therefore, he must clean up his ministry and move this country forward by making this parastatal tick.

Madam, I think it is in everyone’s interest that these parastatals operate as efficient entities and not used to employ our cadres. There are very brilliant people running these parastatals such as engineers and doctors, but it is we, the politicians, who put the cadre mentality into them and, thereby make these parastatal organisations not tick. In most cases, the problem many complain about is the interference from the Executive and us, politicians. I could have cited several examples, but it is just that I do not want to do that.

As politicians, let us be content with our appointments and what we get. If our children were eating rubbers at school instead of working hard, that is their problem. We should not push them into parastatal organisations because of our positions. There are other people’s children who are brilliant and are looking for opportunities to bring out what they posses in terms of abilities and capabilities. Therefore, we should not keep all the opportunities in public companies to ourselves and our families. Why do we not form our own companies and put our dull children into those companies rather than taking them to parastatal organisations? I think let me stop here.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, I thank you …

Mr Mabenga interjected.

Mr Muyanda: Pepe kaka, ndilaamba kabotu amundijatile …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Ndilaamba kabotu.

Madam Speaker, I must pay special tribute to the mover of the Motion, a very well experienced chartered accountant, Hon. Emmanuel Hachipuka, who has been in this august House for a very long period of service to the nation. I pay tribute to him and wish to also commend the seconder of this Motion. I am not going to say very unwanted words, such as greenhorn because he is no longer a greenhorn. Now, he is an hon. Member of Parliament who is a seconder of this Motion.

Madam Speaker, my submission will be very brief. I am in full agreement with the Motion and want to, basically, tell the Government, firstly, that the source of failure by parastatal bodies to perform to the public’s expectation is not only based on political interference, but also on what is called, in technology, as “putting a square peg in a round hole”. This phrase can only be clearly understood by the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development. He knows that if you took a square pole, like in the case of ZESCO, and fitted it into a round hole, it would not hold or stand.

Madam Speaker, there is no quarrel about employing a cadre in a parastatal organisation. All political parties the world over do that. However, do you know what they do in developed societies? They get people with relevant qualifications. That is all. The failure by this Government to employ cadres who are qualified in parastatals is the reason these companies do not run efficiently. I believe Hon. Mwaanga, whom I personally have a lot of respect for, is aware of this because of his vast experience.

Interruptions

Mr Muyanda: He remembers very well when I was a member of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). When we started the MMD, you were not there (pointing at hon. Government Members), but I was there.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Debate the report.

Mr Muyanda: Madam Speaker, I am coming to the report. One of the promises the MMD gave to the people of Zambia was that all parastatal jobs would be advertised to the public. When we were donating money to form the MMD, there were receipts which were being issued by the secretary. Hon. Mwaanga will remember this, but I will not disclose those details. The receipts were stating “secure your future and donate generously. All parastatal …

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: … jobs will be advertised”. Are they being advertised? The answer is a big no. Those on your right have betrayed the cause of the MMD at its foundation and it is a pity Hon. Mwaanga is alone. Maybe, that is why the initial policies have not been followed. Hon. Mwaanga is just alone among them and, therefore, his ideas may not be respected.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Those were the origins of the MMD. I was a member and I am proud of that. There is no hiding that fact but, today, when …
 
Mr Mwaanga: You should come back.

Mr Muyanda: I will not come back. I am not interested.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Debate through the Chair.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Why should an executive of a parastatal organisation stay in office for over a period of five years without tabling before you, Madam Speaker, a set of final accounts? In the corporate world or in business, when we say final accounts, we are talking about an audited set of accounts.

Mrs Musokotwane: He is a relative.

Mr Muyanda: Final accounts are supposed to be presented so that a true and correct picture of the performance of the parastatal entity can be viewed by the entire nation.

Mr Hamududu: Exactly!

Mr Muyanda: Thank you.

I have the support of my colleagues, which shows that I am right, Madam Speaker. This is where the Government goes wrong.

Mr Hamududu: Yes!

Mr Muyanda: We have no quarrels with an hon. Government Member recruiting a relative or cadre but, please, do not fit a square peg into a round hole. It will not stand. Never! All this relative or cadre will do is what is called conduit performance. He or she will suck or filter money from the company.

Madam Speaker, ten years ago, while on the Floor, when I used to sit on the last bench over there …

Mr C. Mulenga: Where I am.

Ms Cifire interjected.

Mr Muyanda:  It was ten years ago. You came yesterday, do not even argue. You are less than five years …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Member!

Mr Muyanda: You are my good friend, but do not interject my debate.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member will …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member will debate within the parameters of the rules of the House and, for him to do that, he will not listen to any hecklers and will try, by all means, to face and speak through the Chair. Do not respond to hecklers. The hon. Member seems to also enjoy those comments and that is why he responds.

Can you, hon. Member, look at the Chair and speak through the Chair.

Interruptions

Mr Muyanda: Madam Speaker, I am much obliged to your guidance.

Why should an institution be supervised by an hon. Cabinet Minister? The duty of supervision is a burden of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. UNZA is failing to pay wages. Is this true or not? That is the institution where most scholars have come from. Tell us if UNZA has paid wages. Madam Speaker, I am asking the Chair. Is UNZA …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Have the wages been paid at UNZA? The answer is no and that is the highest institution of learning in this country. Now, if you starve the staff at the highest institution of learning, who will run or administer Zambia tomorrow? Why should there be an hon. Minister in charge of administering UNZA when you cannot pay the lecturers? You also cannot pay other employees and retirees.

Interruptions

Mr Muyanda: Madam Speaker, I am also well-guided by my wonderful colleagues who have reminded me that the Government has taken K7 billion. Where has it taken it, my dear brothers?

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: If the hon. Member has run out of his own ideas, the Chair will compel him to end his debate.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Thank you, Madam, but I will continue with my own line of thought.

Madam Speaker, …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Muyanda: Please, Mr Shikapwasha, sit down. You are Forum for Democratic Development (FDD).

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

I think the hon. Member has too much energy today and, maybe, he can debate on the next Motion.

Mr Muyanda: No, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: This is the last warning. The hon. Member will speak only through the Chair and not to respond to anybody else.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Is the hon. Member who is debating in order to mislead the nation by saying that parastatal jobs are not being advertised, when, in fact, I have evidence here of parastatal jobs being advertised in the Times of Zambia newspaper by the Road Development Agency (RDA) and ZESCO? I can even lay it on the Table. Is he in order to misinform the nation, Madam Speaker?

Mr Kakoma: Lay it on the Table.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: I will lay it on the table.

Hon. UPND Members: You quote first!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Sorry, I forgot to quote.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Never mind. On page 5, ZESCO is advertising jobs.

Hon. Opposition Member: What is that?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: I have just said the position that is being advertised in the Human Resource Directorate. They are advertising employment opportunities for many jobs that are laid out here. Also, the RDA, on page 6, is advertising many jobs and both are parastatal companies. Is he in order to misinform the nation that there are no parastatal jobs that are being advertised? I need your ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Although the date for the newspaper was not given, it is seen that it is truly one of the daily papers in the nation. Therefore, the guidance is that, hon. Member, as you debate, you have to take that into consideration because the nation must be told the truth. If not the truth, let it be facts. This is because when we debate here, we send a message to the nation and, as I said before, we can make the nation feel totality insecure if we are not telling them that which is 100 per cent factual. It is a very serious matter to say that there are no advertisements for parastatal jobs, particularly senior jobs. So, the hon. Member on the Floor will have to be very careful and justify his statements. Let me also use this opportunity to say that the hon. Member will need to be very serious and not respond or he will cancel himself from continuing with his deliberation.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Muyanda: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your good guidance. In the last ten years, you have been here, I have a lot of respect for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, the K247 billion owed by the Times of Zambia has been adduced as a fact and irrefutable evidence in the report of your own Committee is presented. This is a parastatal company. This is taxpayers’ money. The people of Zambia are paying huge sums of money not for the sake of this Government to misuse or siphon it through a given conduit system of the Executive. I am talking about executives employed as conduits. Why are some executives of parastatals who are caught red-handed having committed serious financial offences reported as having committed ‘financial misdemeanours’ and transferred or promoted instead of being sacked?

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Muyanda: Madam Speaker, this is a very bad point at which to conclude. As I wind up, those of you who will not come back to this House after the elections and those of you who will be lucky to return, remember that public funds are meant to be protected because they belong to taxpayers …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Muyanda: … and taxpayers’ money is not to be abused or misused by the Executive and that is the principal danger of a fused parliamentary system. When you have the Executive or Cabinet Minister coming from among the hon. Members of Parliament, he runs back to go and defend his misdemeanours or offences.

Madam Speaker, I have tabled my points strongly and I thank you very much for listening to me.

Thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to share my views on the report of your Committee. I will begin by borrowing two key words that we have been using in this country more or less like our mother tongue: ‘accountability’ and ‘transparency.’ I want to draw strength from my accounting knowledge and the corporate experience that I have amassed.

Madam Speaker, for any organisation to run its affairs, it must, on a daily basis, know where it is, where it is coming from and where it is going. On a monthly basis, for management purposes, it must know how it has performed, where it went wrong and how to rectify its position. On a quarterly basis, reports must be made to the board of directors, who must take them into account as they assess the performance of the business. On an annual basis, the organisation must prepare the final accounts to be subjected to audit. After that, the board will sit and come up with policies and plans for the company.

Madam Speaker, the revelations of your report are quite worrying. This issue does not concern the Executive alone because it is a national concern. Transparency and accountability are the two virtues that will serve us in the end. To delay accounts up to about three years means you are running the affairs of an institution in a very dangerous manner.

It is like starting off on a journey when you do not know where you are going. You drive until fuel runs out. These are situations where statutory obligations are not honoured and this is not a fault of the Executive as such. I think this country has embraced a culture of lack of accountability and transparency. We need to start thinking deeply on how we would want to be remembered when we are dead, what levels of contributions we would have made to improving the lot of Zambians, how we helped them change and begin to think positively about everything that they did. We cannot have a parastatal chief whose responsibility is to secure the interests of a company being the one working against them.

Madam Speaker, financial regulations and accountability measures have already been put in place, and these are critical issues that every well-meaning employee must adhere to. When issues of this nature are brought before the House, it should not be a matter for us to just gloss over, but one on which we must give serious reflection as an indication of where we are as a nation.

The twenty-two parastatals which were called by the Public Accounts Committee, you will notice,  have almost similar problems.

Madam Speaker, I have been in this House five years now and every time that I have listened to the report on Public Accounts, I wonder whether recommendations of your Committee are ever taken into account. Out of the issues raised, only 24 per cent were responded to while 76 per cent were not. This is very serious. Like other debaters have indicated, these are public funds and it does not matter which side of the coin you are in this House. What matters is that we have accountability and transparency. We must send a strong message to our colleagues who are managing our parastatals that time for them to continue doing wrong things is over.

Preparing financial statements is no longer manually done like it was in the past. All parastatal companies have been computerised and transactions are recorded and entered as they are being made. It is no longer a burden because now there are various accounting packages that assist those who are too lazy to do it manually.

Laughter

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Madam Speaker, critical institutions like the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) having problems, is a serious concern because issues have been raised in this house about how they will improve performance and so on. It is only prudent that production of financial statements is not seen to be negotiable, but mandatory. In fact, even the Companies Act does indicate that it is mandatory that audited accounts should be presented every six months of the financial year. This matter should never be subject to negotiation. It is a matter of principle that every well-meaning Zambian, who wants to contribute positively to this country, adheres to this. The country needs serious development and thinkers. We are tired of people who cannot think and need to be dragged. Zambia is in desperate need of people who can think and do things correctly. It is not about which side of the coin you belong to, but about people getting serious.

If this country has to move forward, accountability and transparency, even in our livelihoods and political organisations, must be emphasised. This is because, without them, how are our organisations and people going to account for public funds?

Ms Cifire: Osa shauta iwe!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: We need to be accountable to one another. Time for begging is finished. We need to understand that time is dynamic. Every minute counts.

Madam Speaker, to allow public institutions, like UNZA, for instance, to get K297.3 billion in terminal benefits is a crisis. You need serious thinkers on how this will be resolved because thinking that this is going to come from the National Treasury is asking too much.

Madam Speaker, all the parastatals in the country have got a mandate to run their affairs profitably. If you did not produce a monthly report at the company that I worked for, you would be fired immediately. I agree with those that say that South Africans are terrible work pushers because, at any given time, they would like to know where you are standing, as a company, and what strategic plan you have to resolve pressing issues.

Madam Speaker, for UNZA to resolve its issues, it must come up with a dynamic strategic plan on how to do so. Not doing so and pushing the blame on the Executive is not right. Parastatals must, to some extent, detach themselves from the National Treasury. They must only look up to grants that are given on an annual basis. It will be careless spending if, for example, you want to raise salaries because you do not only raise net pay, you also raise gross pay so that you are able to meet all the obligations such as the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), Pay-As-You-Earn (PAYE), Pension and so on and so forth.

However, there is a tendency, in this country, where most employers would rather raise net pay and leave the gross for later to attend to other obligations, and many of them have found themselves in this problem.

Madam Speaker, the point that I am trying to belabour is that there must be a shift in the minds set of our people. They must take these institutions like they are running their own personal businesses because if you run into a huge debt, you risk being liquidated. In fact, if some of these institutions were not parastatal companies, by now, they should have been liquidated based upon financial considerations. My advice to the Executive is to seriously look at the issues raised in this report and see how to make the parastatal chiefs account for the huge debts which these institutions have acquired. If they fail to properly account for the debts, they must kiss their jobs goodbye.

Madam Speaker, like I did indicate in my preamble, accountability and transparency are what every Zambian is crying for. As a nation, we have limited resources. We cannot afford to waste not even one ngwee if we have to push this country forward. Every ngwee has to be accounted for. The prudent management of financial resources must be emphasised so that it sinks in the brain of every Zambian. We must account for our money so that we get value for what we have.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hammer.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Madam Speaker, it is my view that everyone must get involved in the running of parastatal institutions. All the people of Zambia must be reminded to put the country first by protecting its resources so that it can move forward. What is the point of paying yourselves allowances when you have not remitted workers’ contributions to NAPSA? Why not forgo your allowances and pay NAPSA what you owe it? We need to be accountable and transparent in our dealings.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing me to contribute to the debate of the report being considered currently on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, I would like to join the others in commending your Committee for a well-written report. I would also like to commend the Chairperson for moving this report very eloquently. Let me commend my good friend whom I normally refer to as mu Zambezi, Hon. Muyanda, for the issues he raised. I will not adopt everything he said, but, I think, there are some issues that he raised that are critical to the development of this country. The matters that my friend, the hon. Member for Kwacha, looked at are also very important. Indeed, the report by your Committee, much as it is well-written, makes sad reading. It saddens all those who genuinely feel for this country and understand the issue of stewardship of public resources. I do not agree with my colleague, the hon. Member for Kwacha, who said that the parastatal heads must not end up blaming our colleagues in the Executive for the debts of the institutions which they are running. The contrary is actually the truth. Those sitting on your right, Madam, should take total responsibility for everything that happens in parastatal companies because they are the ones who are, for the time being, entrusted with that stewardship over the resources of the State.

Madam Speaker, the issue is not whether or not the top jobs in parastatal companies are advertised in the newspapers. The issue is the selection after people have applied and that is what Hon. Shakafuswa talked about. I do not think that he talked about the Executive not advertising the jobs. When we are selecting people to head these parastatals, do we select the right or genuine people?  Are we using parastatal jobs to reward cadres? The citizens of Zambia have numerous examples to cite of constituency party chairpersons landing jobs as heads of some parastatals even after the same jobs are advertised. When they take up those jobs, are you sure that they are divorcing themselves from the political parties to which they belong? Not necessarily.

It is extremely disheartening, Madam, to read in your report that ZAMTEL, simply because it was sold in very disturbing circumstances to Lap Green, did not want to appear before your Committee. It is sad that ZAMTEL management thinks that the fact that the company was sold means that it is not answerable to the Government. A responsible controlling officer of the company should have gone to respond to the questions of your Committee.

It is recorded, Madam, in this very well-written annex of your Committee’s report at page 83, that actually, ZAMTEL, to date, has outstanding issues. Some of these issues date as far back as 2005. The fact that ZAMTEL was sold does not mean that we should not follow up the issues surrounding the sale of ZAMTEL houses. This Parliament, on behalf of the Zambian people, deserves to know fully how the sale was conducted. You should not abandon your responsibilities. I would like to appeal to His Honour the Vice-President to ensure that the ministry responsible presents itself before the Public Accounts Committee for it to respond to questions regarding these matters that are outstanding in this report. The sale of ZAMTEL does not mean that these matters must be forgotten because they involve public resources. Parastatals ought to report nowhere else, but to this House. I hope that the next time we see a report from your Committee, we will see that these matters have been addressed.

Madam, another matter that that my colleagues referred to and which is very disturbing is the non-banking of public funds. Imagine what amount of money this country is losing because of these criminals. There is no other name you can use to define people who instead of banking public money decide to keep it in their pockets for as long as 500 days. I have no other word to use other than calling them criminals. I am extremely shocked to hear people here mentioning names of people who should be blamed for the problems affecting parastatals when they are the ones who are superintending over the resources of this country. That is being cowardly. You will not stop me from debating properly just by mentioning Mr Michael Sata’s name. The truth of the matter is those on your right, Madam, are the ones charged with the responsibility of taking care of the country’s resources today. Ninyenile Ahulu, meaning I am annoyed.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member should really calm down and manage his anger for anger tends to derail your focus. There is no room for anger here. We always debate issues. The hon. Member will debate with a very calm voice so that he can be heard properly by those who want to hear him speak.

The hon. Member may continue in a calm manner.

Mr Lubinda: I thank you Madam Speaker. Following your guidance, I will struggle to calm down. However, discussing matters of criminality, especially those involving the colossal amounts of money that we are talking about, is painful. Shame upon those whose hearts do not bleed when they hear about such colossal amounts of money being abused at the expense of the development of this country. Shame upon them!

Madam Speaker, before I leave the banking issue, let me comment on something which the Chairperson of your Committee said. He said “if this situation”, referring to the issue of the non-banking of public funds, “continues unchecked, it will lead to the rampant abuse of public funds through teeming and lading”. I actually think it was actually a slip of the pen when the Chair was writing his speech because that is not a potential problem, but an already existing one. There is rampant abuse of public funds. What other explanation would the learned Vice-President and hon. Minister of Justice give for anyone keeping money away from the parastatals and the banks? What other motive would there be except the abuse of public resources?

Madam Speaker, this is happening and it ought to be stopped. I want to add to the words that were used by the Secretary to the Treasury when he appeared before your Committee when he said that this problem is as a result of lack of supervision. I think that the problem is not only as a result of a lack of supervision, but also lack of leadership as well. There is a total breakdown of corporate governance and leadership which, for the time being, is held in the hands of the Movement for Multiparty Democracy (MMD). There is a total breakdown in the leadership structure of this country. That is why people are busy abusing money from parastatals in the manner that they are doing without any recourse being taken whatsoever.

Madam Speaker, we have allowed them to run this country in a laissez faire leadership style. No one seems to take control of anything. It is fili ukotuleya. We seem to think that we will get there somehow. We hope that we shall develop somehow. You will not be able to develop if you are not able to take responsibility over resources which you have been given a mandate.

Mr Sichilima interjected.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I just want to remind my good friend, Hon. Sichilima, that not too long ago …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Such debate attracts points of order. Speak through the Chair.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I will remind those who are heckling that not too long ago, Daniel Johannes, the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the darling of Zambia, the Millennium Challenge Corporation, said the following about accountability:

“In order for Africans to realise their dreams, African Governments, including  Zambia, must take ownership and possess responsibility and be accountable to their people.”

Madam Speaker, is this Government being accountable to its people?

Hon. Government Member: Yes!

Mr Lubinda: Yes, it says, and yet we have here in appendix I of your report 311 cases dating  from as far back as 1994. This Government, which brags of being accountable to the people, has failed to acquit itself of those 311 cases. From 1994 to date, it has only been able to acquit itself from sixty-five cases, which translates to 20 per cent of the total number of cases, and yet it says that it is accountable. For any ordinary person, that, obviously, is dismal performance.

Madam Speaker, I want to reveal the fact that of the 311 cases, thirty-seven are the ones that are less than five years old. The remaining ones are more than five years old. This means that this Parliament did not even handle them. They were handled by the Public Accounts Committee of the Eighth National Assembly, and yet they are still appearing as outstanding issues. Surely how can the people on the right credit themselves for being accountable to the people of Zambia? Obviously, they should not.

Madam Speaker, let me look at some specific issues. Some of the issues covered here do not even require investigations. They require outright arrests, and yet your Committee made a recommendation that these matters must be investigated.

In many cases, if you read this report, it states that the information from controlling officers was not available. Controlling officers did not give any report regarding certain issues. A matter occurred in 1994, but to date you are still waiting for the controlling officer to come and present the report. Some of those controlling officers have since died. The reason for that is laxity on the part of the people on your right.

Madam Speaker, let me give some specific examples. On page 79 of your report, there is a matter regarding irregular payments of gratuity and allowances. If controlling officers irregularly pay themselves gratuities, is that a matter that you would want the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to investigate? The Auditor-General has already told you that certain people irregularly paid themselves allowances. What should follow are arrests. Let them go and be tried by the courts of law. Surprisingly, a matter that occurred in 2005 is still being investigated.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Lubinda: Another matter that I have to cite as an example, I am afraid, is about ZESCO. It was talked about by Hon. Shakafuswa. In 1994, your Public Accounts Committee was informed by the Auditor-General that some General Manager paid himself education allowances which he did not quality to earn. In the good year of the Lord, 2011, that matter is still outstanding. Where is that General Manager? He has gone six feet down. What that means is that that money is gone. It has been wasted.

Madam Speaker, there is matter in the report about the scandalous purchase of white maize from Argentina. The maize was bought, in 2004, but it never reached Zambia and, to date, we do not know who pocketed that money. The poor Zambian taxpayers paid for maize to be purchased from Argentina in 2004.

Interruptions

Mr Chota: It is a fact.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, for the sake of my friends who do not seem to have time to read, if they turn to page 49 of your appendix, they will see in paragraph 24 and 25 of the 2004 Auditor-General’s Report that there was an import of white maize from Argentina and, to date, it has not been seen in Zambia. Why are you not effecting arrests?

Hon. Government Members: Guy Scott!

Mr Lubinda: I do not mind who it is. Just effect the arrests. Do not be cowards. Effect the arrests. It is not just a question of mentioning political party leaders’ names. That is cowardly as I said earlier.

We know that there are surrogate MMD members in this House, but they need not start mentioning the names of people who are not here. The public funds used for purchasing that maize from Argentina ought to be accounted for not by people who are outside this House, but those in this House who are on your right.

Madam Speaker, I also want to state that it is extremely saddening to read in this Report that some named political party, which is actually accessing public resources, is also owing a parastatal to the tune of more than K400 million. What kind of party is this that has no respect, whatsoever, for its own parastatals?

Madam Speaker, I want to assure the House that we shall use this as a campaign message. We shall go out and campaign and tell the Zambian people that that party on your right (Government) is not only a reckless borrower, but also does not honour its debts. We shall do this until we make sure that it pays back the money that it owes Mulungushi China Textiles.

Madam, after all, even to stand as a councillor, you ought to be in good books with your council. You cannot qualify to stand as a councillor if you owe your council rates. This party cannot say that it is a good one when it is owing K400 million to a parastatal. I would like to appeal to the chairperson of that party to urge that Government to pay back the money it owes before he is thrown out by the people of his Constituency.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, let me end by stating very clearly that this Report is very good for us to campaign on. I want to thank your Committee for making it available to us because, now, it has become a public document and we shall make sure that we show it to the Zambian people so that, as they go to the polls, they know how irresponsible that Government is.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor, which is to adopt the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General for 2008 on the Accounts of Parastatal Bodies.

Madam Speaker, may I start by commending your Committee for a well-written Report which will help our ministry to focus on areas which need strengthening in terms of adherence to regulations and procedure, good corporate governance and other measures which will strengthen the efficient management of public resource in parastatal institutions.

Madam Speaker, as the House is aware, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, through the Secretary to the Treasury, has made submissions to your Committee on issues raised requiring our attention. Therefore, I will be very brief.
Madam Speaker, the ministry is aware of the main issues, some of which are non-preparation of annual financial statements and reports, non-remittance of statutory obligations, poor financial performance and poor record keeping, amongst others. We also note the recommendation by the Committee …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Time for response is also as important as the time that hon. Members raise issues. It is very important that the responses are listened to. May I, therefore, ask the House to try and be silent and listen.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: … to speed up the finalisation of the State Owned Enterprises Act, which will enhance the monitoring of parastatal bodies. For us on this side, we are a responsible Government. We will take the recommendations and take action on them. We will not stand up and make sensational debates just to attract attention. We mean serious business on this part of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: We are, therefore, going to focus on what we are here to do and not to listen to sensational debates which are picking issues and making mountains out of mole hills.

Laughter

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Madam Speaker, this Act, which we are going to bring to the House, will strengthen Government capabilities in the oversight of parastatal bodies and we anticipate a significant reduction in the shortcomings that are being reported in the management of public resources in these institutions. We also note a number of loss making companies. This is why we are emphasising on preparation of strategic and business plans so that these entities can reposition themselves in the changing business environment. It must be remembered that when most of these were created, we had a completely different market environment. Therefore, they have to go back to the drawing board and make sure they come up with survival plans in a completely liberalised economy. We stand ready to reinforce our oversight function through new legislation, closer monitoring, improved corporate governance and other measures aimed at safeguarding public resource.

Madam Speaker, in some instances, institutions are looking at options of coming up with business modules that can raise revenues in sustainable ways. For example, the University of Zambia (UNZA) is looking at avenues of partnering with the private sector. Having a private equity injection to revamp the infrastructure and come up with initiatives which can generate income will reduce the university’s reliance on the central Treasury.

Madam, once again, we have taken note of various recommendations and we are committed to the improvement of public resource management not only at Treasury level, but also at parastatal level. As a Government, we have demonstrated our commitment to strengthening the management of public funds, for example, by appointing Audit Committees in all ministries, provinces and spending agencies. We have made great progress on computerising our own accounting system so that we have an increased response to the challenges that we are faced with and we can improve the accounting control environment.

Madam Speaker, we have also introduced single treasury account. We have employed adequately qualified staff in ministries, provinces and spending agencies, again, to react to the situation on the ground.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to say that the Government is committed to ensuring that parastatal bodies perform to acceptable standards. We, as a Government, will put in place appropriate legislation, enhance our oversight function, improve corporate governance, support formulation of strategic business plans and apply more rigour in the enforcement and adherence to regulations and all the requirements, including functions which will further improve compliance. We will also support efforts by institutions to adopt business modules, like I said, that are sustainable and are reflective of the current business environment. We will also, of course, emphasise on accountability and transparency. We are looking at a holistic approach to addressing these challenges. We are not looking at picking at issues as it may be put, but we are a committed Government that will take on board your recommendations.

Madam Speaker, I would like to, once again, thank the Committee for a very good Report which we will find useful as we find ways of addressing these challenges.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Madam Speaker, I just want to augment what Hon. Kapwepwe has debated and state that, indeed, we have some constructive observations in the Report by the Committee. This is also evident from the speech delivered by the mover of the Motion, Hon. Hachipuka. We have taken note of such observations.

Madam Speaker, indeed, the suggestions made in the Report are aimed at improving on accountability in parastatals and also, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1805 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that the suggestions made by your Committee and the mover of the Motion are aimed at improving accountability in the running of parastatal bodies as well as engender adherence to good corporate governance in these institutions. I must commend the Public Accounts Committee for performing its oversight function effectively.

Madam Speaker, Hon. Kapwepwe has substantially responded to the issues raised in the Auditor-General’s Report and in the report by your Committee. I, therefore, wish to take her words as reflecting the position of the Government on this report. We, in the Government, shall do everything possible to improve operations of parastatals as well as financial accountability.

Madam Speaker, the issues raised regarding assets and properties seized by the defunct Task Force on Corruption will be enquired into with a view to taking remedial action.

Madam, Hon. Lubinda made some wild suggestions that if an allegation is made against a public officer, he or she must immediately be arrested. 

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, we believe in the rule of law and it is important that only cases which merit arrest be the ones in which public officers are subjected to arrest. This is because, after investigations, it may turn out that such officers may be innocent. We do not believe in vindictiveness. For instance, we had allegations relating to land allocations at the Lusaka City Council. If we were to go by what Hon. Lubinda is suggesting, everybody would have been arrested without …

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: That is jungle law.

There is a need for us to adhere to the rule of law and justice. Justice is important. Some of the people alleged to have done something may have an explanation for it. For instance, if one takes money arising from his or her conditions of service, they may believe that they are entitled to those funds and the actions may not amount to a criminal offence. Not all cases are criminal. Some cases may be civil and money can be recovered. We have recovered money this way. In the same way, we have been taking cases to court. It cannot be denied that there are cases of financial impropriety in the courts of law. Some people may even be serving sentences.

In conclusion, I want to state that, we shall respond substantively in a treasury minute to your Committee, in due course, regarding the action that would have been taken specifically.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon. Members, who have debated, as I can conclude, in support of the report.

Madam, if I were in utopia and, if one day, I became president of this country, I would certainly consider making the Auditor-General’s Report a Cabinet paper for debate at Cabinet, as the Tanzanians do. I have said this before. I would also make sure that before people are appointed to any position, as we always do security clearance, I would insist on financial clearance too. Otherwise, I would like to thank the debaters and Parliament in general.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! 

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON PARLIAMENTARY REFORMS AND MODERNISATION REPORT

Mr B. Y. Mwila (Nchelenge): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation Committee for the Fifth Session of the Tenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 3rd June, 2011.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

MrS Sinyangwe (Matero): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr B. Y. Mwila: Madam Speaker, under its terms of reference, your Committee is charged with the responsibility of examining and proposing reforms to the powers, procedures, practices, organisations and facilities of the National Assembly, provided that, in proposing such reforms, the Committee shall bear in mind the balance of power between the Executive, the Legislature and the National Assembly and also the roles and the duties of other house-keeping committees.

Madam Speaker, allow me to highlight some of the activities that your Committee undertook during the year.

Progress on the Capacity Building Component of PRP III

As the House is well aware, the National Assembly has been implementing the Capacity Building Component of the Parliamentary Reforms Programme Phase III (PRP III) for the last three years. This project is implemented as a distinct component of PRP III, Madam Speaker. Implementation of the project commenced on 1st June, 2008 and it is supported by four co-operating partners, namely Department of International Development (DFID); the European Commission (EC); Irish Aid and the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP). The goal of the Capacity Building Component of PRP III is to increase the effectiveness of the National Assembly as a representative agent of oversight and reform through capacity building.

Madam Speaker, as part of this project, a number of activities in the period under review have been implemented with a view to improving the operations of the Committee system. As the House is aware, the Committee system plays a critical role in Parliament’s ability to provide effective oversight over the Executive. In recognition of this, numerous interventions have been put in place over the years, under the Parliamentary Reforms, to enhance the capacity of the National Assembly and its Members to undertake this role. In the current year, furniture for the new Committee rooms, public address and recording systems have also been procured and installed. This has significantly improved the ease with which committee meetings are held and the record thereof kept.

Madam, the House may also wish to know that, under the Reform Programme, preparations are underway to commence live broadcasts of Committee proceedings on Parliament Radio. To this end, test broadcasts were done and proceedings of the meeting of the Committee on Estimates were aired live on Parliament Radio on 4th May, 2011. It is anticipated that live proceedings of Committee meetings will form part of the normal programming for Parliament Radio and thereby further opening up Parliament proceedings to the public.

The House will recall that one of the recommendations contained in the Report of the Ad hoc Committee on Reforms that was approved in 2000 provide for interaction between Members of Parliament and Civil Society Organisations (CSOs). One of the activities that were conceived to achieve an increased level of interaction between Members of Parliament and CSOs was an annual meeting between the two. The first such meeting was held at Kafue Gorge from 5th to 7th November, 2004. This was with funding under the Parliamentary Reform Project Phase II (PRP II). However, due to a number of reasons, the meeting was not held in subsequent years, even thought it was intended to be an annual event.

With funds provided under the Capacity Building Component of PRP III, this tradition was resuscitated with the holding of a consultative workshop between Members of Parliament and CSOs at Kafue Gorge Regional Training Centre from 25th to 27th March, 2011. The workshop was held under the theme “Enhancing Parliamentary Oversight through Partnership with Civil Society Organisations”. The purpose of the workshop was to provide a platform for Members of Parliament and CSOs to share views on how to improve relations between the two. Further, the workshop was intended to find common ground from which CSOs can input into the various roles of Parliament. It is anticipated that this was the beginning of more focused and fruitful interaction between Parliament and Civil Society.

Madam Speaker, the House will recall that fifty motor cycles were procured in 2009 for use by constituency staff. This was done with a view to improving the mobility of the staff as they facilitate the parliamentary work of Members of Parliament within their constituencies. Staff in these offices have now overcome the challenge previously faced in reaching constituents in far flung corners of their constituencies. In addition, forty-nine motor cycles were purchased at the end of 2010. This brings the total number of motor cycles procured to ninety-nine. A motor boat was also purchased, in place of a motor cycle, specifically for Luapula Constituency considering the swampy nature of the terrain in that constituency. The purchase of the remaining fifty motor cycles is planned for this year.

As the House is aware, due to the rural nature of the vast majority of constituencies in Zambia, many constituency offices have no access to electricity because of the absence of supply to their respective areas. To alleviate this problem, an activity to provide solar power equipment to these offices was mooted. Subsequently, solar power equipment has been procured for all constituency offices that are not on the national electricity grid. This is intended to improve the effectiveness of the constituency offices as the provision of this equipment will enable the offices utilise the computer and other equipment that has been provided to enhance their efficiency. Your Committee is pleased to report that installation of solar equipment at twenty seven constituency offices will be concluded within the course of 2011.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament require access to quality information in a timely fashion for them to contribute meaningfully to debates on the Floor of the House, and to proceedings in Committee meetings. In this regard, the Parliament Library is critical. In order to effectively service the information needs of Members of Parliament, a number of interventions have been put in place with funding provided under the Capacity Building Component of PRP III. The document retrieval system in the library has been successfully automated using what is called the In-Magic System. This is network based software which efficiently enables the lending out and return of library materials. The system has given the library the ability to catalogue and retrieve documents in the shortest possible time. This means that Members of Parliament can now access information they are looking for faster. The system also facilitates the development of databases enabling the storage of information. Therefore, I urge all hon. Members of Parliament to fully take advantage of these facilities by utilising them to enrich their knowledge.

As part of efforts to modernise the Library, the process of digitisation of library materials has commenced. This entails creating soft copies of all documents in the library. The materials earmarked for digitisation include debates, acts, Committee reports and Bills and other related publications. The fundamental objective of the digitisation is to preserve and maintain the original collection of Parliament papers and archives as a unique and rare collection and, at the same time, provide access by Members of Parliament and other stakeholders. Digitisation also aims to prolong the lifespan of the documents and archives by preserving them in a media which can facilitate migration of data with the change of technology in future.

Madam Speaker, digitisation also increases accessibility of the documents and archives by way of establishing finding guides, catalogues and publishing databases. The database of the digitised materials will be linked to the Parliament website for increased accessibility through the internet. Further, digitisation will promote research among Members of Parliament, researchers, scholars and the general public. Digitised material will also become easily searchable through text-based systems.

Madam Speaker, the first step to digitisation, which is procurement of appropriate computer equipment and software, is almost complete. It is anticipated that the whole process of digitisation will be completed by early 2012.

Construction of Constituency Offices

Madam Speaker, your Committee made a decision in 2008 to construct constituency offices in all the 150 constituencies in the country. This was intended to reduce the expenditure on office rentals and ensure the long-term sustainability of constituency offices. Your Committee decided, further, that an initial nine offices would be constructed, one in each province. Since then, and as reported in your Committee’s report for 2010, four offices have been constructed at Chasefu, Masaiti, Mwembeshi and Rufunsa. Currently, works are under way at sites for the Katombola, Lukashya, Pambashe and Zambezi East. Works at the Lukulu West site are expected to commence soon.

Your Committee also decided that construction of another six offices should commence within the course of 2011. these six offices are to be constructed at Chifunabuli, Chongwe, Dundumwenzi, Lufwanyama, Nangoma and Sinda. However, the House will recall that the criteria used to select the constituencies where offices would be constructed have been based on party representation, rural constituencies and gender balance. However, your committee is of the view that these criteria are inappropriate as they fail to take into consideration the severity of the need for accommodation in different constituencies. Your committee, therefore, recommends that the criteria used to select the constituencies where offices should be constructed should be amended to take into consideration the severity of the need for accommodation for constituency offices in respective constituencies. This will accommodate the constituencies with offices that do not have adequate or reasonable office space, or have very dilapidated buildings.

Visitors/Media Centre

Your Committee wishes to report that construction of the Visitors/Media Centre has commenced within the precinct of Parliament. This construction project is being implemented with support from the Government of the People’s Republic of China and construction works are expected to be completed within six months.

Madam Speaker, the House will recall that the Visitors/Media Centre was designed in recognition of the need to accommodate the increased flow of members of the public and the media which is a result of numerous interventions that have been implemented, under Parliamentary Reforms, to open Parliament to the public. The purpose of this centre is to provide a facility where visitors and members of the media can be received. This centre will distribute passes to the galleries, conduct tours of the facilities, control limited public access to the library, distribute information and educational materials on the National Assembly and serve as an overall information centre for public inquiries. The presence of a Visitors/Media Centre will lead to an increase in public awareness on the proceedings at Parliament and will enable National Assembly take a significant stride towards becoming truly open to the public and the media.

Committee’s Study Tour to the Parliaments of Uganda and Ghana

Madam Speaker, one reform that is critical in ensuring the autonomy of Parliament is the establishment of the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC). This activity has been held in abeyance pending the conclusion of the Constitution-making process. This was because it was felt that the PSC needed to be constitutionally defined considering its importance in the separation of powers. Therefore, as part of preparations for the establishment of the PSC, your Committee undertook study tours to the Parliaments of Uganda and Ghana. The purpose of these visits was to study the set up and operations of the commissions in these jurisdictions and learn best practices that will form the process of establishing one in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that the composition of the Ugandan Commission was more comparable to the proposed Zambian Commission than to the Ghanaian Board. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the House considers adopting the composition of the Parliamentary Service Commission of Uganda, with modifications. In deciding the modifications required, some of the best practices such as autonomy, both financial and otherwise and optimum composition of the commission and tenure of office of members, should be further studied by a committee of senior staff of the National Assembly, to be constituted by the Clerk, and appropriate recommendations be made to the Standing Orders Committee on the form that the Parliamentary Service Commission for the Parliament of Zambia will take. Your Committee recommends further that the National Assembly of Zambia establishes a budget office under the office of the Clerk. This will enhance Parliament’s ability to undertake its oversight role through the provision of objective, independent and timely analysis of the National Budget.

Conclusion

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to take this opportunity to, once again, express my gratitude to all our co-operating partners for their invaluable support and contributions to the Parliamentary Reform Programme, in particular, DFID, the European Commission, Irish Aid and UNDP.

Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for the inspiration and wise guidance you gave to your Committee throughout the year. I also want to thank you for giving us the opportunity to serve on your Committee.

Madam Speaker, last but not the least, may I also express my gratitude to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the invaluable assistance rendered to your Committee.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later.

Mr Machila stood up and started walking behind the Government benches.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members: Order!

Mr Machila sat down.

Laughter

Mrs Sinyangwe: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I stand to second the Motion which has been ably moved by the Chairperson of the Committee. As indicated by the mover of the Motion, most of the reform activities in the period under review have been done under the Capacity Building Component of the Parliamentary Reforms Project III (PRP III). Therefore, I wish to highlight the Committee’s achievements through this project as follows:

(i) in an effort to improve hon. Member - constituent relations through good management of constituency offices, five training workshops were held for staff in the Northern, Eastern, Southern, Lusaka and Copperbelt provinces. The workshops were held at central locations in the named provinces and their objective was to enhance the ability of the staff in managing the constituency offices;

(ii) budget monitoring tools have been developed for use by hon. Members of Parliament and staff. The tools are in the form of a manual whose objective is to standardise approaches to monitoring implementation of the National Budget after it is approved by the House;

(iii) a number of training activities for hon. Members of Parliament and staff of the National Assembly were also undertaken in the form of workshops and specialised training, covering a variety of specialisations, including scrutiny of performance, Information and Communications Technology (ICT) and environmental audit reports and an HIV/AIDS workshop to enhance the support function of staff to hon. Members of Parliament in dealing with HIV/AIDS issues;

(iv) the Bill drafting capacity of the National Assembly has been enhanced in the past few years with a number of staff in the Legal and Journals Department undergoing training. Further, under the Parliamentary reforms, the National Assembly now meets the cost associated with the process of introduction, before the House, of Private Member’s Bills. However, it has been noted that hon. Members of Parliament still do not take advantage of this opportunity that has been provided. Hon. Members are encouraged to make use of this opportunity; and

(v) a training needs assessment of the National Assembly staff was carried out to identify skill gaps that exist at the institution and propose training that would fill these gaps. The training needs assessment was finalised in December, 2010. Numerous training activities for staff have been since been undertaken in the first half of 2011, following the recommendations of the training needs assessment. This training needs assessment has provided a basis for the National Assembly to undertake a more focused training which is appropriately prioritised.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also undertook a study tour to the Parliaments of Ghana and Uganda to learn about the operations of the Parliamentary Service Commissions in those jurisdictions. Allow me to highlight some observations your Committee made:

(i) the Parliamentary Service Commission in Uganda, or the Parliamentary Service Board as it is known in Ghana, focuses mainly on the welfare of staff and hon. Members of Parliament and on the efficient running of Parliament;

(ii) the bodies are autonomous and operate without interference from the other arms of Government. As is also proposed in the Draft Constitution for the proposed Parliamentary Service Commission in Zambia, the two bodies prepare the budgets for their Parliaments. These budgets are not subject to review;

(iii) in Uganda, the hon. Minister responsible for finance is an hon. Member of the Public Service Commission, this makes verification of the Parliamentary budget easier. On the other hand, the hon. Minister of Finance in Ghana is not an hon. Member of the service board and this makes it difficult to negotiate the budget for Parliament;

(iv) the Ghanaian Parliamentary Service Board has the Speaker as chairperson with the other four hon. Members being appointed by the Speaker in accordance with the advice of the Committee of Parliament and the Clerk, who is an ordinary member of the board. The secretary is separately appointed usually from among the two Deputy Clerks; and

(v) a key aspect of interest in the Ugandan Parliament is the role of the Parliamentary Budget Office in the preparation and execution of the National Budget. The purpose of the Parliamentary Budget Office is to provide Parliament and its Committees with objective, independent and timely analysis of the National Budget.

Madam Speaker, these observations should be taken into consideration when the process of establishing a Parliamentary Service Commission in Zambia commences.
 
Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I beg to second.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to enable me to contribute to the debate on this very important Motion on the Floor of the House. I wish to begin by commending the mover for a very well-presented report and the seconder for supporting the ideas that have been mentioned.

I must say that, clearly and, speaking from experience, the reforms have made a big difference in the way this Parliament operates. They have made it easier for hon. Members to perform their duties and also interact with members of the public. Considering that we have offices which have been established in all constituencies, this makes it quite easy for hon. Members to interact because even when they are at Parliament, their professional assistants and other staff can keep in touch with members of communities in the constituencies.

I must say that there are still challenges because it is still very difficult to communicate with some of these offices. For offices in the very remote areas of Zambia, communication is still difficult and the Solar Installation Programme has not started in these areas. The programme of establishing communication networks such as cellular phone communication has still not reached all the constituencies. In fact, a major proportion of constituencies has not been reached yet. Therefore, it is not easy, at this stage, to communicate very well. As a result, these offices do not function as effectively as they can once these facilities are available.

In this regard, I would like to urge the National Assembly to put a lot of effort into this to ensure that the Solar Installation Programme and provision of computers and other facilities is expedited so that these offices can function like the offices which are in the urban areas.

Madam Speaker, let me come to the issue of Parliament Radio, which has made it very easy for us to follow what is happening in Parliament and for the members of communities to listen to Parliamentary proceedings. The only problem with this is that this service is only available in the provincial headquarters and, maybe, some towns near Lusaka. If you go to districts such as Samfya, you cannot listen to Parliament Radio.

Madam Speaker, it is important that Parliament Radio is extended to all the districts. However, even more challenging will be to ensure that apart from Parliament Radio being accessed at the district or Boma, it reaches all the constituencies of our country so that when hon. Members are debating, they can be appreciated and heard by their constituents. There are some hon. Members who have been here and made their maiden speeches but have, probably, never spoken and will not speak until their term in Parliament comes to an end.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: If Parliament Radio reaches all parts of this country, members of their constituencies will be able to tell how these hon. Members of Parliament are representing them.

Hon. Members: Yes.

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, the other reform which involves scrutinising of Bills by the Committees is quite effective because it is true that not all hon. Members have the time to read every single Bill, go through all the clauses and be able to debate meaningfully on all the Bills and pieces of legislation that are introduced. The Committees are able to go through these Bills thoroughly and bring in other stakeholders, including the Government, non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and community. This has definitely enriched our legislative process in this country and should be supported. I also noticed that the reforms are trying to bring or build a closer working relationship with members of NGOs and Parliamentarians.

Madam Speaker, I had an opportunity to participate in a seminar at Kafue Gorge, where hon. Members of Parliament were in a joint seminar with officials from various NGOs. It was quite interesting and difficult because it seemed and, at some point, felt like there was a lot of acrimony between the two parties. However, it is important for us, as hon. Members of Parliament, and NGOs to understand that we are all trying to serve the same communities and that our work is supposed to be complementary despite the difficulties that surfaced in the debate that, at some point, was robust and heated. In the end, we agreed that we needed to work together to support our society.

Madam Speaker, in concluding my very short remarks on this debate, the reforms have been started, but the challenge is to ensure that they are sustainable. A lot of these reforms have been instituted with the help of funding from some bilateral partners. I would like to believe, and we must be cognisant of the fact that, that financial support will not be there forever. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us, as a country and Government, to see to it that the National Budget supports these programmes. It will be a pity if, after having started these programmes, we do not sustain them and extend them to other areas. For instance, as I indicated, Parliament Radio does not reach all our constituencies. Therefore, there is a need to extend it to all constituencies. I am sure the people in our constituencies would like to see us debate on television so that they can know what happens when points of order are raised and when the hon. Madam Speaker, and her procession is entering and leaving the Chamber. All those are the things that our people in the constituencies would like to see and we need to provide adequately for these reforms to continue and be sustained.

Madam Speaker, with those remarks, I wish to support fully the report of the Committee and I thank you for this opportunity to debate.

I thank you, Madam.{mospagebreak}

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this chance to debate on this report and I am going to be very brief. I would like to thank Parliament for having started building offices in my constituency, though they are being built in a wrong place. The purpose of those offices is to bring Parliament closer to the people, but because of where it is being built, it will not be closer to the people as very few people will reach that office.

Interruptions

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I raised this issue earlier. I remember we were in the Amphitheatre when I brought it up. I was promised that Parliament would look into it. However, the offices are being built at the border which is a corner in my constituency. Even from where I live, as an hon. Member of Parliament, there are 125 km in-between. Can you imagine having to drive 125 km, every morning, to get to my office and driving back home in the evenings? I have to drive 250 km everyday. It is not possible. If we are going to build these offices for the people, then, we need to build them in places where the majority can access them. I know we were supposed to build these offices where we conduct our nominations. However, nominations are conducted once in five years, but the people must reach this office every day. In my opinion, the offices are supposed to be built where people can access them because nominations take place only once in five years.

Madam Speaker, maybe, this will give the Government an opportunity to demarcate my constituency so that we build other offices in those places because, presently, I do not think where we are building the office is the right place.

Madam Speaker, the other issue is on transport. Yes, again, I appreciate that we have a Honda but, in my constituency, there are places where a Honda is not a reliable means of transport. I hope Parliament will start thinking about buying 4 X 4 vehicles for constituencies such as mine. I am not suggesting that Parliament should buy these type of vehicles for all constituencies, of course. My staff need a 4 X 4 vehicle in order for them to go round the constituency. A Honda is not good enough.

Madam Speaker, we appreciate that our offices are being built, but I do not know how quickly we can also build accommodation for staff. As you are aware, Kazungula Border is a very small place and accommodation is a problem. At the moment, my professional assistant is living in a lodge. As you are aware, lodges are very expensive there, but because there is no other accommodation, Mr Mukomba is living in a lodge. It should be noted, therefore, that while we are building the offices, we should also speed up the issue of accommodation for the staff.

Madam Speaker, I would like to repeat what Hon. Dr Machungwa has said about our radio programmes. When my people go to Livingstone to visit, they hear me talking and debating on radio and they feel very happy. As a result, they have requested that, please, you extend this service to Kazungula so that they do not have to go to Livingstone for them to listen to their hon. Member of Parliament talking. They have also requested that, if possible, please, they also want to see me on television. I know that, with the help of our co-operating partners, it is possible for us to have a television station because I am sure that this station will not be biased. It will allow each and every one of us to be shown on television. As long as we say or do something, they will see us.

Madam Speaker, with these few words on where my constituency office is being built, I thank you very much.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Speaker, as usual, I will be very brief. I will talk for less than four minutes.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: Madam Speaker, I support the report, but, in doing so, let me make some few comments. The first comment is on the new Committee Room Building, that is, the one which was completed a few months ago. My advice here is that we should stick to standards because there are certain items that are not up to standard. For example, I think the urinals are too low. We need to stick to Zambian …

Mr Mubika: What is that?

Interruptions

Mr Mooya: … standards.

Laughter

Mr Mooya: Madam Speaker, I think there is a minimal height for that but, as it is there, it is terrible.

Laughter

Mr Mooya: Madam Speaker, the other issue is that we must have provisions in the gents where to hang a jacket but, as things are now, it is terrible.

Laughter

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, let us stick to Zambian standards. I know the contractor is not Zambian, but let us take the Zambian standards. I hope that the building that is being constructed there, next to the gate will stick to Zambian standards.

The second comment is on the construction of constituency offices. I thought the report was going to include the timeframe. At the moment, we are going at a very slow pace. I had heard that, by this year, 2011, twenty-seven offices would have solar energy. I am wondering, in a country of 150 constituencies, how long it will take to put solar panels. My suggestion is that we come up with a time-framed programmes so that, within the next three years, we can finish with all the 150 offices.

I am happy that the construction of the Visitors and Media Centre has started. I saw the builders busy excavating. As I pointed out, let us have Zambian standards there.

Finally, my suggestion on Parliamentary vehicles is that they must be paid for at the end of the term at book value, just like the …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is overstepping. We do not debate those issues.

Hon. Members: Quality!

Mr Mooya: Madam Speaker, I am a man of very few words, so let me end here.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Y. Mwila: Madam Speaker I thank the hon. Members who have debated on this Motion for their constructive contributions. I also thank those who did not debate because I know they have approved what we are doing.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

________________

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

THE COMPANIES (AMENDMENT) BILL 16, 2011

Clauses 1, 2, 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 – (Repeal and replacement of section 41)

The Minister of Livestock and Fisheries (Mr Machila) on behalf of the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, I beg to move an amendment in clause 5, on page 4, line 27 by the insertion, immediately after the word ‘name’ of the words ‘or the name of an existing company’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause 5 amended accordingly.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 6 – (Amendment of section 57)

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 6, on page 5, line 26 by the deletion, immediately after the word ‘a person’, and substitution therefore of the word ‘subject to section sixty-four and sixty-six, a person’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause 6 amended accordingly.

Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 8 – (Insertion of new sections 109A and 109B)

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 8, on page 7, line 13 by the deletion, immediately after the word ‘an’ of the word ‘appeal’ and the substitution therefor of the word ‘application’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause 8 amended accordingly.

Clause 8, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 10 – (Insertion of new section 111A)

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 10, on page 9, line 22 and 23 by the deletion of words ‘proceeds of the company’ and the substitution therefor of the words ‘gross proceeds of the realisation of the receivership of the company;.

Amendment agreed to. Clause 10 amended accordingly.

Clause 10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 11 and 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 13 – (Insertion of section 118A)

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 13, on page 10, line 36 by the insertion, immediately after the word ‘receivers’, of the words ‘by the Registrar’; and

On page 11, in line 16 by the deletion of the word ‘secured’ and the substitution therefor of the word ‘preferential’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause 13 amended accordingly.

Clause 13, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 14 and 15 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 16 – (Insertion of new section 189A)

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 16 as follows:

(a) on page 12, in lines 34 to 35, by the deletion, immediately after the word “company”, of the words “by registered post” and the comma; and

(b) on page 13, in line 5 by the deletion, immediately after the word “company”, of the words “by registered post”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 16, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 17 and 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 19 – (Insertion of new sections 218A and 218B)

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 19, on page 15, in line 22 by the deletion of the word “shareholders” and the substitution therefor of the word “members”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 19, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 20 – (Repeal and replacement of section 224)

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 20, on page 15:

(a) after line 27 by the insertion of the following new sub-clause:
“(2) The Register shall be available for inspection by any person.”;

(b) in line 28 by the re-numbering of sub-clause (2) as sub-clause (3); and

(c) in lines 32 by the re-numbering of sub-clause (3) as sub-clause (4).

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 20, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27 and 28 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 29 – (Insertion of new section 346A)

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 29, on page 20, in lines 24 and 25 by the deletion of the words “proceeds of the company” and the substitution therefor of the words “gross proceeds of the realisation of the liquidation of the company”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 20, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 30, 31 and 32 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.
_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Companies (Amendment) Bill, 2011

Report Stage on Friday, 17th June, 2011

REPORT STAGE

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (2009) BILL

Report adopted.

Third Reading on Friday, 17th June, 2011.

_________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_________

The House adjourned at 1938 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 17th June, 2011.