Wednesday 12^th November, 2025

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_______

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

 

STAFF FROM THE PARLIAMENT OF KENYA

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following members of staff from the National Assembly of Kenya:

 

Mr Benson Inzofu Mwale                         -        First Clerk Assistant, Legislative and

                                                                Procedural Services and Leader of Delegation

 

Ms Ella Kendi Mwenda                            -        First Clerk Assistant, Audit, Appropriation

                                                                            and General Purpose Committees

 

Mr Mike Kalama Mwahunga                    -        Hansard Reporter I

 

Mr Peter Wafula Barasa                            -        Legal Counsel II

 

Ms Irene Nduku Makau                            -       Third Clerk Assistant Legislative and

                                                                            Procedural Services

 

Mr Simon Tililei Kanda                             -        Third Clerk Assistant, Legislative and

                                                                            Procedural Services

 

Mr Sakana Ole Saoli Nkanae                    -        Third Clerk Assistant, Departmental

                                                                            Committees;

 

Mr Stephen Okuto Otieno                        -        Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms II

 

I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive the guests and warmly welcome them into our midst.

 

You are most welcome.

 

Karibu sana.

 

I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM EAST VIEW SCHOOL LIMITED IN LUSAKA DISTRICT

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of pupils and teachers from East View School Limited, Lusaka District.

 

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome the visitors into our midst.

 

I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

_______

 

URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

 

MR MTAYACHALO, HON. MEMBER FOR CHAMA NORTH, ON ENG. NZOVU, THE HON. MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, ON DRY BOREHOLES IN CHAMA NORTH CONSTITUENCY

 

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): On an Urgent Matter without Notice, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: An Urgent Matter without Notice is raised.

 

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter without Notice is directed at the hon. Minister of Water and Sanitation.

 

Madam Speaker, Chama District was severely hit by a devastating drought during the 2024/2025 Rainy Season. The drought did not affect just household food security but also access to water. The most affected area is Mazonde Ward in Chama North Constituency, where almost all boreholes have dried because the water table has gone too low. As a result, our people are going through serious challenges. They are now drawing water from shallow wells, which is not safe at all.

 

Madam Speaker, you have always encouraged us to engage Government officials before bringing up issues on the Floor of the House. This issue was brought to the attention of the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, including the Permanent Secretary (PS). As early as yesterday. I even sent a video of people drawing water from shallow wells, but to date, no action has been taken. Our people will think that we are not addressing their concerns.

 

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious indulgence.

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, the hon. Member for Chama North is complaining that you are not reachable. I encourage hon. Members to engage hon. Ministers, but the hon. Member for Chama North is saying that you are not reachable. So, please, hon. Minister, if you are not reachable, make yourself available so that you can address the concern of the people of Chama North.

 

Hon. Member for Chama North, you are also encouraged to engage the hon. Minister. From what I have seen in the House, from my assessment, I believe the hon. Minister is an accessible Member of Cabinet. So, engage him. On the issue of drought, I do not think it is an urgent matter because we are even going into the rainy season. So, see how you can engage the hon. Minister. Well, they say water is life. It is very important to have water, and clean water for that matter. However, if you are not satisfied, you can file in a question and the hon. Minister can address it.

 

The hon. Minister wants to say something.

 

Hon. Minister, are you accessible or not?

 

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Eng. Nzovu): Madam Speaker, as the hon. Member correctly said, we engaged in conversation on the issue yesterday. So, between now and tomorrow, we will have an answer for him. We are aware of the situation, and we have been engaging the hon. Member of Parliament. Let me just assure the people of Chama that this Government will do everything possible to reduce their water stress.

 

 So, hon. Member, please, come to my office again so that we outline what we are going to do in Chama.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

MR CHEWE, HON. MEMBER FOR LUBANSENSHI, ON MR MWIIMBU, SC., THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON MOBILE PHONE SCAMMERS

 

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): On an Urgent Matter without Notice, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: An Urgent Matter without Notice is raised.

 

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for the opportunity you have given me to raise an Urgent Matter without Notice, on behalf of the people of Lubansenshi. Before I raise the matter, I would like to update you that Lubansenshi Constituency or Luwingu District received K20 million this morning for payment of farmers. This is good, and it is a move in the right direction. It is our hope and prayer that more money will keep coming so that farmers can be paid quickly.

 

Madam Speaker: I do not hear hon. Members say, “Hear, hear.”

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, I am speaking on behalf of the people of Lubansenshi. So, it is up to each and every hon. Member to ensure that the money is paid to farmers. This is good. The people of Lubansenshi are eager to see more money, so that they can buy fertiliser, seed and other things that they need in their fields.

 

Madam Speaker, let me now come to my Urgent Matter without Notice, which is directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. Last night, I received phone calls from my people in Lubansenshi Constituency and others from within Lusaka on the issue of scammers and hackers who are sending messages like, “impiya shabalanda nashiisa,” “send your National Registration Card (NRC), the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has been released” and “use this number, I am waiting to receive the money.” Due to a lack of information, at times, people tend to lose money. I know of three people that lost money. One lost K6,000, the other one lost K2,100 and another one lost K900. I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security for guidance because it is this House that passed the law on cybercrime. People would like to know if that law is helping the situation, or what measures the Government is putting in place to ensure that people’s resources are secured, especially people in rural areas. If that issue remains unchecked, people will keep on losing money.

 

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

 

Madam Speaker: I am sure we have all received the messages in question. Even today, this morning, I received a message saying, “Tumeni. Imwe na imwe tumeni”.

 

Laughter

 

Madam Speaker: That means send. So, we all receive those messages. Please, let us be careful as we dispatch money to another number.

 

Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, maybe, you can file in a question. That issue has been on-going. So, it does not qualify to be treated as an Urgent Matter without Notice.

 

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 

GOVERNMENT’S INTERVENTIONS TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF MOTORCYCLISTS ON PUBLIC ROADS

 

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali): Madam Speaker, to avoid sounding discourteous, kindly permit me to place on record my sincere gratitude for according me this opportunity to issue a Ministerial Statement on the Government’s interventions to ensure the safety of motorcyclists on public roads countrywide, following your directive on Wednesday, 29^th October, 2025.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government has observed with deep concern the increasing number of road traffic crashes involving motorcycles and tricycles across the country. These accidents have resulted in a growing number of fatalities and debilitating injuries, particularly among young people who depend on motorcycles and tricycles for their livelihoods. Motorcycles have become an important mode of transport, especially in peri-urban and rural areas where conventional transport services are limited. However, their rapid growth, if not accompanied by proper regulation and safety measures, poses serious risks to the riders, passengers and other road users.

 

Madam Speaker, while it is difficult to determine the exact number of motorcycles in Zambia, due to many being unregistered, available official data provides some insight. Allow me, therefore, to share the statistics covering the last three years and the first three quarters of 2025:

 

1. in 2022, the number of motorcycles registered on the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) electronic Zambia Transport Information System (e-ZAMTIS) system was 4,296. During the same year, there were 1,890 recorded motorcycle road traffic crashes with 112 fatalities;

 

1. in 2023, there were 9,755 motorcycles registered. In the same year, 3,051 motorcycles were involved in road traffic crashes, which resulted in 262 fatalities;

 

1. in 2024, 9,414 motorcycles were registered and 3,526 motorcycle road traffic crashes were recorded, resulting in 331 fatalities; and

 

1. during the period January, 2025 to September, 2025, a total of 8,463 motorcycles were registered. During the same period, 2,795 motorcycle-related road traffic crashes were recorded, resulting in 375 fatalities.

 

Madam Speaker, the majority of the crashes occurred in urban and peri-urban areas, including Lusaka Province, Copperbelt Province, the North-Western Province and the Eastern Province. The data clearly indicates an upward trend in motorcycle-related crashes and fatalities, underscoring the need for a co-ordinated national response. The other reason for concern is that we are ending up with survivors who are amputees from motorcycle accidents. Young people who are in their prime productive age are being decapitated. That is a sad situation, as our country is neither at war nor infested with landmines.

 

 Madam Speaker, the main causes of motorcycle crashes, as established by the RTSA, include:

 

1. unlicensed and untrained riders;

 

1. overloading and carrying multiple passengers;

 

1. failure to wear helmets and other protective gear; and

 

1. general non-compliance with traffic rules and regulations.

 

Madam Speaker, in response to these challenges, my ministry, working with the RTSA, the Zambia Police Service and local authorities, has continued to implement and scale up the following interventions:

 

Enforcement and Licensing

 

1. the RTSA has intensified roadside checks and compliance operations to ensure that motorcycles are registered, licensed and insured;

 

1. all motorcycle riders are required to undergo both theory and practical driving tests before obtaining a licence; and

 

1. the RTSA has decentralised motorcycle testing and licensing services to all provinces and districts countrywide to enhance accessibility.

 

Safety, Education and Sensitisation

 

1. continuous road safety campaigns are being undertaken through community radio stations, schools and meetings in our traditional leaders’ areas to raise awareness on helmet use, speed limits and passenger limits. Recently, the RTSA undertook sensitisation campaigns in the Eastern Province and the North-Western Province; and

 

1. the ministry has also partnered with the Zambia Road Safety Trust (ZRST), World Vision Zambia, Yango Zambia and Zambian Breweries to promote responsible riding and helmet distribution programmes.

 

Madam Speaker, this august House may also recall that in September, 2025, Zambia hosted over 1,500 motorcycle riders from across the Southern African region for the exhilarating Mosi-O-Tunya Rally, which this Minister of Transport and Logistics participated in. We rode our motorcycles from Lusaka to Livingstone, eventually to Kazungula and back to Livingstone, before we rode back to Lusaka. This was primarily to raise awareness on this very, very disturbing trend. The event was a success and brought into focus the need for safety for motorcycle riders.

 

Stakeholder Collaboration

 

Madam Speaker, firstly, my ministry is working closely with the local authorities to harmonise the regulation of motorcycle and tricycle operations within towns and districts. Secondly, discussions are also underway with insurance companies to develop affordable third-party insurance products for motorcyclists.

 

Legislative Reform

 

 Madam Speaker, the Government, through my ministry, is in the process of amending the Road Traffic Act No. 11 of 2002 and the Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Regulation No. 63 of 2013 to provide for the licencing of motorcycles and tricycles as Public Service Vehicles (PSV) for the carriage of passengers and goods in peri-urban and rural areas. The proposed amendments have already been circulated for ministerial consultation and upon the Cabinet approval and broader stakeholder engagement, the Bill will be presented to this august House for consideration. This amendment will provide a comprehensive framework for licencing, training, enforcement and safety compliance, specific to motorcycles and tricycles.

 

 Madam Speaker, the Government is also addressing infrastructure-related factors that contribute to motorcycle crashes. Working with the Road Development Agency (RDA) and local authorities, we are doing the following:

 

1. improving road markings and lighting in high-risk areas;

 

1. supporting designated motorcycle parks and stops within markets and township areas; and

 

1. ensuring that, where possible, roads should have should provide motorcycle lanes.

 

 Madam Speaker, while the Government continues to implement these measures, the safety of motorcyclists ultimately depends on the responsible conduct of riders, passengers and motorists alike. All road users must exercise caution and consideration, particularly towards vulnerable groups such as motorcyclists. I, therefore, wish to appeal to the general public to:

 

1. ensure that every rider is licenced and trained;

 

1. ensure that riders and passengers to always wear helmets and reflective jackets;

 

1. avoid carrying multiple passengers or overloading; and

 

1. ensure riders refrain from reckless riding and over-speeding.

 

Madam Speaker, parents and guardians should also discourage under age riding of motorcycles on public roads.

 

Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Administration remains committed to ensuring that Zambia's transport system is safe, inclusive and accessible to all, including users of motorcycles and tricycles. Through a combination of strong enforcement, legislative reform and public awareness, we are determined to reduce road traffic fatalities and promote safe mobility for all road users. I, therefore, wish to assure this august House that my ministry will continue to work closely with Parliament, the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, the RTSA, the Zambia Police, local authorities, the private sector, and the general public at large to make Zambia's roads safer and more efficient.

 

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the Ministerial Statement presented by the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics.

 

Mr Mubika (Shangombo): Madam Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister urged parents to talk to the motor riders to not overload, and to wear helmets. However, we have a situation whereby the people in charge of maintaining law and order on roads, especially in the Eastern Province and the North-Western Province, where there is an influx of motorcycles, allow a motorcycle to pass through a checkpoint, with a rider and three passengers not wearing helmets. So, the traffic police officers allow such mode of transportation to pass through the checkpoint. What should be done to such traffic officers?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Shangombo for that potentially good question, except that the hon. Member, obviously, misunderstood me. I did not ask on parents that they should be asking riders to wear helmets. When I mentioned parents in the statement, I was advising them to not allow underage riders, and in that case, I am referring to their children. However, the hon. Member has touched on an important point where law enforcement officers, those in the Zambia Police who are under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, allow with impunity the recklessness of not only overloading the motorcycles, but also doing so without the use of protective helmets. This is a scourge that we, as a country, are facing, and it requires all of us to get involved, because the consequences of these motorcycle crashes shall have serious repercussions on the Government's aspiration to really utilise the young productive population of this country to work for the country and help it achieve economic gains.

 

Madam Speaker, we are really working very hard. We want to collaborate with the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security so that the Zambia Police can equally come to the party to help us enforce these existing road traffic rules and regulations.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to ask a question. I would also like to thank the hon. Minister for his statement.

 

Madam Speaker, indeed, the situation is alarming, especially in rural areas. We witness accidents each and every day. Some of them, like the hon. Minister has said, involve more than two people on one motorcycle. In his statement, the hon. Minister mentioned that one of the causes of the accidents is unlicensed and untrained riders. This is because, during the licensing process, someone is taken through a level of understanding of the rules of riding  motorcycle.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) is now in all the districts. Unfortunately, in Itezhi-Tezhi, we do not have the RTSA. Therefore, when will the RTSA establish an office in Itezhi-Tezhi?  I ask because covering that distance from Choma to Lusaka, just to license a motorcycle, I think that would not work for them. As soon as one buys a motorcycle, he/she straight away starts riding it. The same is true in most of the main areas where we do not have physical officers. When are we expecting the RTSA to set up an office in Itezhi-Tezhi?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I wish to concur with the hon. Member, that it is very unfortunate that,  indeed, we do have quite a number of unregistered motorcycles on our roads. The reason may be attributed to a number of factors, one of which is our porous borders, whereby our people who are trading with some of our neighbouring countries are taking merchandise across the border, and part of the payment is a motorcycle. So, owing to the porous nature of our borders, they simply ride back into the country. Those motorcycles are devoid of the necessary paperwork to allow their registration. We are working hard to create some kind of an amnesty to allow people to bring their motorcycles to our offices so that we can regularise the acquisition of those motorcycles.

 

Madam Speaker, as to the specific question of when the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) will set up an office in Itezhi-Tezhi, I would like to encourage the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi and other hon. Members to not wait to come to this august House when they have a problem of this nature that needs to be resolved urgently. I think that as an administration, we run an open-door policy. Hon. Members should come through and present their cases. I think that is why we are called the people's representatives. We can look at the case of Itezhi-Tezhi and see how we can urgently resolve it.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, I think that part of my question was answered by the hon. Minister when he responded to the question from the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to make a case for Kalomo. Riding a motorcycle requires some degree of energy. Is the Government going to consider setting an age limit? For example, will it consider setting a restriction on the age of riders in the Western Province, …

 

Ms Sefulo: Question!

 

Mr Sing’ombe: … for example, not allowing anyone above sixty years to ride a motorcycle?

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Hon. Government Member: Wamana wamadala.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: At that age, many of my hon. Colleagues from the Western Province would have lost energy to ride a motorcycle. There should be an age limit to reduce accidents.

 

Mr Kafwaya: On a Point of Order, Mr Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Dundumwezi is treading on dangerous waters.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I doubt whether I am competent to answer such a tribal war-inclined question.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has referred to the age limit. I was hoping he would talk about the lower age limit, but he spoke about the higher age limit. One of the reasons that we need to renew our drivers licences is to undergo some kind of re-examination. Even motorists who got their licences at a tender age develop poor eyesight over time or with age. They no longer have 20/20 vision. So, I guess it is that kind of thing which should inform us as to what stage somebody should be prevented from riding a motorcycle or a motor vehicle. I think that the problem, which I have spoken to in the Ministerial Statement, mostly involves young persons. I think that it is very important to ascertain at which age it is acceptable to allow young persons to use public roads for motorcycle riding.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam Speaker: Stop the clock. There was an indication for a Point of Order.

 

Hon. Member for Lunte, what is the Point of Order?

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, when standards are being developed, it is important to clarify them. It now appears as though we, your hon. Members, are irresponsible. Every time we bring issues to the Floor of the House, where we have official time allocated for us to speak for our people and give checks and balances to the Executive, hon. Ministers admonish us and ask us to go to their offices.

 

Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister was responding to a question posed by the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi, he repeated that very unfortunate directive, which is not supported by any Standing Order.

 

Madam Speaker, why should your hon. Members be told: “Come to my office before you bring this matter to the House” as if we also have positions at the offices of the hon. Ministers, when our positions are here?

 

Madam Speaker, this matter should be clarified. I seek your serious ruling as to whether hon. Ministers should be asking us to go to their offices when, in fact, we should be speaking here on the Floor of the House.

 

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to continue on that trajectory?

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

 

The guidance for hon. Members to go to the offices of hon. Ministers, I think, came from the Presiding Officer. So, the hon. Member for Lunte is raising a Point of Order on the Presiding Officer, which is a breach of the Standing Orders.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, on a serious note, the reason hon. Members are encouraged to engage hon. Ministers is to ensure that problems are addressed. I have realised that just coming to mention problems on the Floor of the House, debating and talking about them does not bear the fruits we want.  When hon. Members and hon. Ministers engage with one another, the problem can be sorted out. For instance, we can talk about the issue of the payment for maize by the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). It was raised before the House, and the hon. Minister was informed. Yesterday, I encouraged the hon. Member for Lubansenshi to engage the hon. Minister as some money was being arranged to pay farmers. Now, the people in his constituency have received their money. We want results. We want things to be done. We do not want to just talk.

 

Hon. Members, I know that you are representing the people from various constituencies, and they want to hear that you are speaking on their behalf. However, talk alone will not solve their problems. That is why we encourage you to interact with hon. Ministers and various responsible agencies so that you can resolve your issues. So, I think that guidance still stands, and I believe it is the correct way in which we can address the challenges that hon. Members are facing.

 

So, the Point of Order is not admitted.

 

We can make progress.

 

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, I have followed the hon. Minister’s Ministerial Statement and the responses well. I can say that he actually understands the issue we are talking about, not just as a Minister but also, at a personal level. I would say that Mufulira has not been spared from the problem. There is an outbreak of motorcycles, and fatalities have occurred. Before I ask my question, allow me to give some examples, because I have interacted with the riders in Mufulira. Firstly, I asked them why they ride unregistered motorcycles. The hon. Minister gave an answer to this question. I was given the same answer that the hon. Minister gave. Someone crosses the border into the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) with some bags of maize or merchandise and comes back with a motorcycle. To have it registered, that person has to raise about K6,000, which is far more than the value of the motorcycle.  That is the feedback I got from riders. One rider said that he was not able to raise the money to register his motorcycle.

 

Madam Speaker, the other riders I interacted with were riding motorbikes without a helmet, and they were young. I asked them a question similar to the question that the hon. Member for Dundumwezi asked. All they told me was that they ride motorcycles for survival. Even the passengers they carry do not wear helmets. The riders also have no licences. They say, “I have to survive, boss.” So, basically, riders who own motorbikes know the laws and the measures that the Government has put in place. What is happening is simply lawlessness. It is disregard for the law.

 

Madam Speaker, motorbikes are here to stay. Firstly, is the Government considering issuing an amnesty so that riders can register their motorcycles for free? Let people just go to the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) offices and register their motorcycles, so that we do away with the issue of unregistered motorcycles. Secondly, I do not think that it is very costly to train a motorcyclist. Would the Government consider sending officers from any Government department across the country to hold training sessions so that people can be trained how to ride motorcycles?

 

Then, the problem of headgear and anything else would be the only things left, but in terms of registration, give amnesty so that people can have them registered. Provide schools or training. It is mostly young people who use motorcycles. Provide a period so that they can all be accorded the opportunity to be trained on how to safely ride the motorcycles. Otherwise, the motorcycles are not going anywhere. They are here to stay. So, the Government must provide an environment to avoid fatalities.

 

 Madam Speaker: That was more of a debate than a question.

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the question.

 

Madam Speaker, I am left to wonder at what stage the hon. Member walked into the House. He has referred to amnesty, and I have already tackled that issue. I said that through the RTSA, we are trying to see how we can bring in those people through an amnesty and regularise the acquisition of those motorcycles.

 

Madam Speaker, commenting on one of the hon. Member’s other points on how we can train the motorcycle riders, I do not know where this culture of fearing institutions came from in this country. We ought to demystify that and encourage our people to visit these institutions because they are there to serve them. Our young people do not come forth. You have to go out there, and when you do, it is more punitive as opposed to being corrective. We are working hard on that. This is why I am calling upon all hon. Members and, through you, the general public, as we ought to work together. Like the hon. Member has clearly stated, this new phenomenon in Zambia started as though we woke up one day and, lo and behold, there were motorcycles everywhere. In certain jurisdictions, such as those in the Far East; in China and India, in West Africa; Kenya and Tanzania, there are many motorcycles, yet not as many accidents. They co-exist. Mutual respect has developed over time. So, all hope is not lost. We too shall get there. Like the hon. Member said, this is a new form of transport that is offering some of our people an affordable way of getting from one point to another.

 

Madam Speaker, I guess that would be my response to the hon. Member for Mufulira.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the statement he has presented.

 

Madam Speaker, Mufumbwe is a rural constituency, and there are many motorcycles. I remember well that previously, firearms were licensed by the local council. Is the ministry not thinking of coming up with a desk at the district level where registration of motor vehicles, as well as issuance of licences, can be done to help people in rural areas also have that facility? The process of moving from district to district might take too long.

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Mufumbwe has asked an apt question, and I concur with him. As a matter of fact, such efforts are underway. Some services have been devolved to the local areas because of this Administration’s devolution policy. The question of how quickly and efficiently that is being implemented is something that, perhaps, I should take an interest in and follow up on to see how far the issue has gone.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East). Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, this phenomenon of passenger motorcycles in Zambia, quite rightly, is a new development. Secondly, drawing from the hon. Minister’s statement, we do not have a policy and legal framework in place yet to govern this kind of situation. So, one can understand the seeming confusion or, indeed, chaos that reigns in that space. I am particularly concerned about the number of deaths. It is actually an emergency when you look at the figures that have been given this afternoon. I solved simple calculations. The ministry registered 9,000 motorcycles, and 3,000 of them were involved in accidents within the same year. That means one out of every three motorcycles that are purchased is involved in an accident, which, quite often, is fatal. I think, we cannot afford to take the matter casually. We must move with speed to arrest the situation.

 

Madam Speaker, the Road Traffic Safety Agency (RTSA) is not sufficiently present in all our districts. As you may know, the accidents are happening more in the rural areas, like in my district, where people just buy motorcycles. They buy them from Angola, and start riding them as soon as they do. There are many of them. I am sure, it is happening everywhere else. Is the ministry considering appointing honorary traffic control officers who can be easily deployed to all the areas to inspect, control, check and ensure that the young men have safety equipment, and that only those who have been trained are allowed to ride the motorcycles, as the hon. Minister has said that the ministry has started training the motorcycle riders.

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has asked a pertinent question. I have been on record on the Floor of this House saying that one of the ways we can respond to the flouting of traffic rules and regulations, not just by motorcyclists but also by motorists, was to beef up the staffing levels for the RTSA, and the commencement of honorary traffic inspectors programme is underway. I truly believe that, at this stage, everything has been done. However, for the actual identification and recruitment of these honorary traffic inspectors, I think that there are discussions in the background with the Zambia Police Service in terms of drawing up a programme on how honorary traffic inspectors can be furnished with basic enforcement rules and regulations through the Zambia Police Service and the requisite attire for them to don whilst they are on public roads.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member must also be reminded that the RTSA, for instance, is predominantly an institution that is supposed to look at the affairs on highways. When you talk about township roads and what goes on, we really want to rely on the Zambia Police Service. We are stretched, and that is why there must be a collaborative effort with the Zambia Police Service so that we can work together and nip this problem in the bud. As the hon. Member clearly pointed out, this scourge is predominant in the rural areas, particularly the border towns. So, honorary traffic inspectors should be unveiled soon. I do not want to give a specific time, but I think that we are nearly done. It has taken awfully long, something which I am not happy with, but we are almost there.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.  

 

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for his elaborate statement. I took note that the hon. Minister mentioned that he will soon bring a law or regulation to officially establish a legal framework for motorcycles and tricycles operating on a commercial basis. I would like to commend the hon. Minister for that.

 

Madam Speaker, the unregulated operation of motorcycles and tricycles on a commercial basis has been happening for many years. I hope the Ministry of Finance and National Planning sees an opportunity in uncollected taxes for motorcycles operating on a business basis, but are not remitting taxes. In rural areas like my constituency, many youths conduct business using motorcycles. However, most of them are untrained and do not comply with remitting the mandatory taxes. I have noticed that the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts is not in the House. I am sure he is in the constituencies empowering youths with motorcycles. I would like to know whether the proposed Bill that the hon. Minister talked about will be presented in this Parliamentary Meeting.

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Nalolo for that important question. The answer is yes. The Bill will be presented in this particular Sitting of Parliament.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Is it Sitting or Meeting?

 

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that comprehensive statement. Indeed, the problem is huge. One of my party members, the vice-chairperson in our ward, had one of his limbs amputated at Macha Hospital following a motorcycle accident. A number of our party members and constituents have also lost limbs as a result of such accidents.

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to know if the hon. Minister is considering a mandatory camp approach to training motorcycle riders within wards or constituencies. For example, a ministry can camp within each ward or constituency to conduct quick training on safety and riding procedures for a week or two so as to save lives. This is an emergency, considering the number of accidents involving motorcycles. We cannot afford to lose more limbs.

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, a camp approach sounds workable. I can say that we shall consider it.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the responses.

 

Madam Speaker, looking at the statistics that the hon. Minister has given, year by year, is very alarming. I agree with him that motorcycles, or boda-bodas, as they are called in other countries, are here to stay. The hon. Minister alluded to working with other ministries to curb this new phenomenon, especially the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. I am concerned about the number of fatalities. In 2022,  there were 1,993 accidents, In 2023, there were 262 fatalities and in 2024, there were 331 fatalities. The hon. Minister also alluded to the number of amputees, which is increasing.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to suggest a different route of saving lives from the accidents that are happening. As the ministry tries to address the issue of competencies and related matters, is it working in collaboration with the Ministry of Health to ensure that the focus is on how we are going to save the lives of those who get involved in such accidents? How much collaboration is there with the Ministry of Health in terms of putting up facilities, especially in rural areas, so as to save a leg before it is amputated or referred to Lusaka, which is far away?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for a very good question. I think that his concern is not for the ministry alone, but for the whole Government. The hon. Member should realise that in the spirit of one Government, in almost every health institution now, there is a designated ward where particular accident victims are treated. That just goes to show how closely we are collaborating. The Ministry of Health, through its various health institutions, has designated specific wards so that there can be speedy processing and attendance of health personnel to specific accident victims. Like I stated in the Ministerial Statement, it is something that we are very concerned about because it is affecting the very productive age of our population. We so desperately need to nip this in the bud.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the statement.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister gave examples of so many countries that are managing to regulate motorcycles. However, when other people come to Zambia, they admire our country for how clean our roads are regarding motorcycles. The hon. Minister will agree with me that in countries that have been managing motorcycles, they are a nuisance on the road. I did not want to mention names, but when you go to Tanzania or Uganda, they are a nuisance. These countries have gone ahead to introduce specific wards where people involved in motorcycle accidents are attended to. Those are people who do not pay taxes, but at the end of it all, there is a service that needs to be given to them. We are allowing a problem to rise as we watch it happen. In the next ten to fifteen years, if we allow the influx of motorcycles at the rate it is happening, we will have the same challenge that our colleagues are failing to sort out.

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if there is any regulation that we can come up with, since we have seen a problem coming in the near future, so that we do not get to the level where motorcycles become a nuisance on our roads.

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the question. However, I just want to say that what the hon. Member may refer to as a “nuisance” is actually a very busy economic activity.

 

Ms Sefulo: Ah!

 

Mr Tayali: When we go to places where we think motorcyclists are a nuisance, we should know that those are people conducting businesses and we cannot even compare the gross domestic product (GDP) of such countries to ours. Our country must simply be abreast with current trends. It is just like the statement I made when I spoke about online taxi hailing businesses. It is something that, as a country, we cannot resist. As the country’s economy begins to flourish, more people should be able to move from one place to another in a much more affordable fashion because not everybody can jump on a bus or afford an ordinary taxi and definitely, not everybody can jump on an aeroplane. So, we must, as a country, simply be able to adapt. So, how do we then accommodate new trends? The hon. Member will see that future road designs will be speaking to the fact that motorcycles, as a form of transportation, are here to stay. We  just have to try to regulate them. So, what we must be looking for are solutions and not to try and run away from something that is here to stay.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

_______

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

 Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, we move to the next item, Questions for Oral Answer under Standing Order No. 80. The hon. Member for Kalabo Central.

 

Hon. Members: He is not in the House.

 

Madam Speaker: It is very unusual for the hon. Member to not be here. Since there have been no prior arrangements, the question lapses in accordance with our Standing Orders.

 

We move to the next item.

 

Mr Miyutu entered the Assembly Chamber.

 

Madam Speaker: Your question, hon. Member, has lapsed. You were not here.

 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I am here now.

 

Madam Speaker: Okay, I will use my discretion. I will allow you to ask the question.

 

Hon. Member for Kalabo Central, you may proceed.

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I apologise to the people of Kalabo Central. Anyway, it happens because I am a human being. I went to attend to some things which I could not avoid.

 

Hon. Government Members: Human nature.

 

Mr Miyutu: Yes, human nature.

 

Laughter

 

PROCUREMENT OF X-RAY MACHINE

 

69. Mr Miyutu asked the Minister of Health when the Government will provide an X-Ray Machine for Kalabo District Hospital.

 

The Minister of Health (Mr Muchima): Madam Speaker, a floor-mounted digital X-ray machine valued at approximately K5.3 million has been procured for Kalabo District Hospital through one of our co-operating partners. It is currently undergoing clearance at Kazungula Border with the Radiation Protection Authority (RPA). The X-ray will be delivered, installed and commissioned by December 2025 once the clearance process is completed.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, if I were allowed, I would have danced to that answer.

 

Hon. Members: Cry.

 

Mr Miyutu: Dancing. The opposite.

 

Madam Speaker, if you went to Kalabo District Hospital, you would find a queue which never ends at the X-ray unit. Sometimes, patients are referred to Mongu, you can imagine that. You know that location. So, people have to secure transport to go to Mongu just to get an X-ray. We have lived like that. That is why I believe that every change comes with a good thing. We changed the Government in 2021 for the purpose of receiving – hon. Minister, I will come and dance at your office.

 

Hon. Members: Even here, you can dance.

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I do not think I have any other questions. Thank you very much.

 

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. There is a difference today. The hon. Member for Kalabo Central will go to the hon. Minister of Health’s office to go and teach him how to dance konga.

 

Mr Kamboni:  Konga?

 

Madam Speaker: Konga is a dance for Kandanjis. I saw the hon. Member dancing konga. One day, the hon. Member for Kalabo Central sent me a video in which he was dancing the same dance.

 

Laughter 

 

Madam Speaker: So, it was good.

 

_______

 

MOTIONS

 

INTRODUCE A LEGAL AND POLICY FRAMEWORK TO REGULATE THE PROVISION OF IN-VITRO FERTILISATION AND FERTILITY SERVICES

 

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to introduce a legal and policy framework to regulate in-vitro fertilisation (IVF) and fertility services in Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

 

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, IVF is a type of assistive reproductive technology that has become a beacon of hope for countless couples struggling with infertility worldwide. However, the journey to parenthood through IVF is not just a medical process. It involves navigating a landscape of legal and ethical considerations. As a branch of science, it involves the collection of reproductive cells from a male, the sperm, or the egg, from a woman, and storing them in banks for future fertilisation. Later, they can be implanted into the uterus of a woman who wants to have babies.

 

History of IVF in Africa

 

Madam Speaker, in Africa, with the exception of Egypt and South Africa, until 2001 there has been little or no interest in sub-fertility prevention and treatment in Africa. South Africa, for example, has well-established regulations, a comprehensive framework for fertility treatment and a growing number of fertility clinics offering a wide range of assistive reproductive technologies and services, including IVF. It has, for example, regulations relating to the artificial fertilisation of persons. Egypt also has a well-established regulatory framework. For example, in 1990, the Grand Mufti of Egypt issued what we call the fatwa which issued regulations of IVF and intrauterine insemination (IUI).

 

The Zambian Context

 

Madam Speaker, originating in 2000, Zambia’s National Reproductive Health Policy explicitly addresses infertility care, including assisted reproductive technologies such as IVF, alongside other key areas like safe motherhood, family planning and adolescent health. The policy emphasises the integration of infertility services into a broader framework of reproductive health delivery, recognising infertility as a significant public health concern.

 

Madam Speaker, despite this recognition, Zambia remains limited in terms of urban clinics that have access to IVF. In Lusaka, for example, we have an IVF clinic. Recently, another IVF clinic has come on board.

 

Accessibility and the Cost of IVF Services to Citizens

 

 Madam Speaker, IVF costs quite a lot of money. This can range from K150,000 going up for people who want to have babies who are produced in a laboratory.

 

 Madam Speaker, the procedure, of course, is quite complex. Sometimes, it involves intracytoplasmic sperm injection, embryo freezing and optional services like genetic testing or donor involvement. According to the Ministry of Health, IVF services are not easily accessible to citizens because of the cost involved.

 

 Collection and Availability of IVF Statistics

 

Madam Speaker, like I said, since its inception the Lusaka IVF and Fertility Clinic has had about 6,125 patients, but only 58 per cent received the treatment. It needs to be noted that the success rate stands at 40 per cent, meaning that if ten people go for IVF, only four are likely to succeed. So, the 60 per cent will have to repeat the procedure, which is actually quite costly.

 

The Legal and Policy Framework Governing IVF in Zambia

 

Madam Speaker, currently, in Zambia, there is no adequate policy and legal framework governing assisted reproductive technology services in the country. That means these services need to be regulated, and the sooner we do that, the better. For example, the Constitution of Zambia is silent on reproductive health technology, such as IVF. Since 2015, Zambia has had only one IVF centre located in Lusaka. Recently, another centre called Seeds of Innocence, located within Lusaka, has come on board. That means that these services do not exist widely. This trend highlights the increasing need for awareness and the need for fertility treatment among the population. As such, it is crucial that a supportive and well-regulated environment is fostered to ensure accessibility, affordability and quality IVF services for all individuals and couples seeking to conceive in Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, it is worth noting that many issues regarding IVF are ongoing, because gametes or sex cells are mixed in the laboratory. There are also issues of surrogacy. For example, a seed may be harvested from one person, fertilised in the lab, and then implanted in another person who is willing to carry a baby for a couple that has been struggling to conceive. All these processes require legal issues. In terms of parenthood, when a child is conceived using IVF, he or she may need to know who the donor was, and who the father and mother are as well. So, all those issues bring in ethical conditions that need to be considered. Hence, a need to come up with a legal and policy framework to regulate IVF and fertility clinics in Zambia. We do not have such policies currently.

 

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

 

Ms Nyirenda: Now, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, I appreciate this chance you have given me to second the Motion that my hon. Brother has moved. I have taught with him at the same university before. So, when he approached me to second this Motion, I just had to say yes.

 

Madam Speaker, being a woman and mother, I know that failure to conceive, sometimes, brings a lot of tension in homes. If in vitro fertilisation (IVF) is one of the modern ways of using science to assist our women and couples conceive children, then, I do not find it a challenge.

 

Madam Speaker, anything that is done without any legal or policy framework is bound to be abused. Laws are made so that people conducting business in a particular country can behave in a particular way. I will just speak to a few things that the mover highlighted and, maybe, due to time, may not have talked about them.

 

Madam Speaker, the mover talked about safety and quality assurance. Whilst one is trying to conceive a baby using IVF, the process may cause one to lose the womb, cause menopause or other health issues. I stand here as a woman, and I know that most times, if a couple does not have children in the home, it is the woman who is blamed. You will find that a mother-in-law will say to her son, “This woman is failing to produce” when the challenge is actually with the man.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Members: Question!

 

 Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, I am just trying to be– It may not be the woman who has a challenge. It may be your son who has a problem. He is failing to produce what can be effective. As I support this Motion, I would also like to look at some of the challenges that women go through, especially, if they cannot conceive a child, to be considered.

 

Madam Speaker, the mover has also spoken on exploitation and commercialisation. Who has K150,000 to pay for IVF services today? If the procedure fails, one needs to pay K150,000 again. If we, as regulators, can formulate a law to state that a service provider should promise that when one pays K150,000 for the first procedure and it fails, the next one maybe, at least, should cost up to K50,000. Then, that way, our people will be saved. We are in this Parliament to ensure that we make laws that can help everyone. Desperation is one of the ways in which people lose most of the resources that they gather. Some people have used their pensions, while others have sold their properties just to conceive. At the end of the day, if they sell their house, at K150,000, and the money is used up, they, again, sell their vehicle, and another K150,000 is spent. Many of our fellow Zambians have lost a lot of resources, not knowing the issue of protection, because of the assertion that one can only be called a proper woman if they have a child.

 

Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleague also talked about promoting public confidence. If I walk into a clinic and I do not know whether that clinic is regulated, I would be doing something, but with a thought at the back of my mind. However, if I know that the clinic is regulated, and its management knows that it has to ensure that it remains ethical and follows the rules that have been set by the nation, when I seek services from such a place, I would be doing it with a clear conscience.

 

Madam Speaker, a long time ago, surrogacy used to happen in instances where a couple failed to conceive, then, the man would automatically be given, maybe, the woman's young sister or cousin, so that they would help the couple have a baby.  However, today –

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Nyirenda: Yes. That is what used to happen a long time ago.

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President indicated assent.

 

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, I can see Her Honour the Vice-President nodding. It is true. That is what used to happen. However, surrogacy currently, involves one being able to contract a womb when one has viable eggs, but does not have the right facility to use. So, they can use someone else's womb to implant their egg, and get their baby, as it is a contract and it has been agreed upon. Therefore, one can also have the joy of holding that baby in their life.

 

Madam Speaker, I think this is a non-contentious matter. It is a move that I can support, hoping that the ethical and professional standards will be assured; the safety of the people who participate, control of the prices and, in addition, protection of the rights of the people who are accessing these services.

 

Madam Speaker, these are some of the services that are supposed to be freely available when you walk into the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). There must be an IVF clinic where people who have had challenges for fifteen or twenty years, and do not have children, can easily walk in and seek IVF services, especially from a Government point of view.

 

 Madam Speaker, without wasting much of your time, I fully support this Motion, and I pray that everyone in this House says yes to what we have agreed upon.

 

I submit, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the good people of Kabwata, I sincerely thank you for the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion . Firstly, I want to echo that I support the Motion that is on the Floor of the House.

 

Madam Speaker, as the seconder stated, among the challenges that women face in our society, is the issue to do with tradition and culture. Culture has always promoted men to be above women, even when it comes to producing children. Whenever there is a problem in the family, it is always transferred to the women. It is for this reason that we need to deal with the issue of culture and tradition, and the only way we can do that is by providing a legal framework that answers to the needs of In-Vitro Fertilisation (IVF).

 

Madam Speaker, I totally agree with the mover of the Motion. For many years, there was only one centre in Zambia that provided IVF services, and it is within Woodlands, near Prospects. However, another one has been established, but some of the women who want to have children face the challenge of the cost of conducting IVF, which is very expensive. Today, in countries like Egypt, due to the legal framework in place, the cost of conducting IVF is very affordable for many Egyptians. However, in Zambia, it is very expensive for anyone who wants to undergo IVF. Many people cannot afford to pay for the service.  So many vulnerable people are failing to have children, but conducting IVF is quite expensive.  

 

Madam Speaker, facilities that conduct such procedures need well-trained personnel. How well are the personnel trained? Are there experts who were trained in different countries? It is very difficult to determine if a person conducting IVF is qualified or not. So, we need to come up with a legal framework that will speak to that.

 

Madam Speaker, let me also talk about the issue of opening up more centres. Lusaka alone is not the only place where you find people struggling to conceive. Even in the Copperbelt and rural areas, you will find people who are also affected.

 

Madam Speaker, the issue of safety is something that is eating me up, because most of the people who undergo IVF sometimes end up having the worst nightmare of losing their wombs. I think, there is a need for us to come up with a legal framework on how best we can protect the women in our country. When we have a legal framework that speaks to the issue of parenting, I think it will be easier for us to encourage more women to undergo IVF, especially when the cost is also lowered.

 

Madam Speaker, let me conclude with the issue that I started with, that of qualifications. People are coming into the country to offer the service without being checked. It is difficult to know whether those offering IVF services are qualified. There is a need to come up with a legal framework that will speak to the qualifications of the people providing IVF services. Yes, I know that there is the Zambia Qualification Authority (ZAQA), but do we have a legal framework that can counter that? Do we have a legal framework that will speak to the people who have the necessary qualifications?

 

Madam Speaker, with these few words, on behalf of the people of Kabwata, I support this Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion, which is on the Floor of the House.

 

Madam Speaker, let me begin by saying that the people of Kafulafuta support the Motion, but with a caveat, that the users of such facilities should be married or couples. It should be done only when a couple agrees to be provided this kind of service. I say this to protect children who might be born from women who are thirty-five or forty, who decide to undergo the procedure so that they do not die without a child. Based on my experience and what I have discovered, it is not good for a child to grow up without knowing its father, and I am speaking on the flip side of the coin. I support the Motion, but I want to emphasise the fact that In-Vitro Fertilisation (IVF) should be restricted to people who are married, or in an arrangement of boyfriend or girlfriend, or whatever the case is, because the child must be protected psychologically.  Let not a child grow without knowing who the father is, or whatever the case might be.

 

Madam Speaker, I have personally witnessed situations in which children who grow up without knowing their fathers do things that sometimes stun you because of wanting to be recognised in society. Most of the children who have grown up without knowing their fathers end up wanting to be recognised in a wrong way. It is a well-known fact that one of the responsibilities of a father is to ensure that the child is brought up with good manners, is mentored, and knows that it has a mentor or a father figure, one that it can run to for protection, care, and so on and so forth. When children lack mentorship, they end up causing problems in society. They have nothing to fear.

 

Ms Sefulo: Question!

 

Mr Mulebwa: They have nothing to worry about when doing certain things. So, the people of Kafulafuta support the Motion, only if the service can be restricted to couples so that a child does not grow up without the father.

 

Madam Speaker, I know that the issue of finances has been factored in, but there are women who have good jobs, who can easily afford what other women might not; money is not an issue. However, I think that there must be a point where we make laws that should protect children as they grow up by knowing the father figures in their lives.

 

With these few words, Madam Speaker, the people of Kafulafuta would like to support the Motion.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, thank you so much.

 

Madam Speaker, I also thank Hon. Dr Katakwe and Hon. Nyirenda for this Motion, which I support, on behalf of the people of Mbabala, on the premise that we are talking about child rights. As a Member of the Parliamentary Caucus on the Rights of Children, I am interested in the Motion, given the fact that, as a country, we do not have the legal framework to protect and safeguard the rights and welfare of children born through In-Vitro Fertilisation (IVF), including issues of parentage, citizenship and inheritance.

 

Madam Speaker, these matters become crucial, hence the need and the urgent call for a legal framework, because children, in line with the Convention on the Rights of Children, to which Zambia is a signatory, and through the Child Code Act, which this House passed and was ably assented to by His Excellency President Hakainde Hichilema, have the right to identity. There is need to identify who a child’s mother and father are. As such, IVF, if done without considering these factors, becomes a danger. Hence, I wish to call for a legal framework. It also impacts on citizenship, as to where the children may belong. There could arise the issue of inheritance, like I mentioned, at a later stage when the child loses its parents.

 

Madam Speaker, we also need to stop the exploitation resulting from commercialisation of such services. Without regulation, there is a risk of unethical practices, such as the sale of embryos, surrogate exploitation or fertility tourism, which can lead to taking advantage of vulnerable people. Further, the high cost of services currently provided by private facilities puts fertility services out of reach of many Zambians. So, we need a legal framework that is going to allow ordinary citizens who wish to conceive to be supported through public hospitals, not only private fertility clinics that charge exorbitant prices. For example, some fertility clinics charge US$5,000. How many rural women and men out there can afford that amount to have a child? Therefore, we need a clear legal framework to avoid commercialisation, abuse and exploitation in this sector. Soon, we may start having foreigners coming into the country to use some of our women for such services. As a country, we do not want to see that, so we have to protect ourselves. We have to anticipate some of those things. I am sure that some hon. Colleagues will remember the case in the United States of America (USA) of a surrogate mother who refused to give a child to the people who contracted her. The issue ended up being a protracted legal matter, and millions of Dollars were wasted.

 

Madam Speaker, there are also matters of safety and quality assurance. We need to protect the citizens of Zambia. We do not know if those who went to IVF clinics were satisfied with the services they received. We cannot have quality assurance without a legal framework. We do not know the quality of the medical and laboratory facilities being utilised. We do not know the results coming out of such procedures. We do not have any standards. We do not have any minimum health requirements for donors and children. As a result, the people choosing to use fertility clinics are going into a dark world where they do not know what the result will be, since there are no set standards and quality assurance.

 

Madam Speaker, we also need ethical and professional standards. Medicine is guided by ethics. Therefore, fertility clinics that are being set up are required to have professional standards and ethics. Right now, we do not know what professional standards fertility clinics are maintaining.

 

Madam Speaker, finally, there is the issue of protection of patients’ rights. Without a legal framework, confidentially for couples cannot be protected. For example, if couples, whom Hon. Mulebwa wishes to see access fertility services, go to fertility clinics, there is no protection of confidentiality and their rights as citizens. Therefore, we need to protect the rights of the people who seek such services.

 

Madam Speaker, I concur with Hon. Nyirenda when she talked about blame being placed on women. As we grew up in villages, we heard stories that women were helped with fertility issues, but men were never blamed for fertility problems. It was always the women who were blamed, and that is still going on in our society. So, we have to protect the rights of women and other citizens by bringing standards to fertility issues. Our society has continued to evolve and come up with new things that may not have been anticipated many years ago. We have, for example, issues to do with the Termination of Pregnancy Act, which is an old law from 1972. Some people have tried to avoid going to public hospitals because of the requirements in that outdated Act. We need to revise the law so that we can provide for different scenarios and protect the rights and health of mothers. We need to do that in order to avoid complications at birth and disabilities that can occur during the process of accessing services at fertility clinics. We do not want such things to happen. We want to avoid them.  

 

Madam Speaker, with those words, on behalf of the people of Mbabala, I rest my case. I support bringing regulations to the issue of fertility.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, earlier I did not want to speak on the Motion, but I will address some misconceptions that have been raised. Being a woman, I want to speak to them.

 

Madam Speaker, let me begin by saying that I support the Motion on the Floor. I want to indicate that with or without men, women are great mentors. We have seen many women who have raised children alone, and their children have grown up to be successful in different countries. So, a woman is a great mentor. We have seen children who have grown up in homes where there was a mother and a father, but the children ended up not being okay. So, we do not want to say that when a child is raised by a single woman, that child will not contribute positively to society. I refuse to say that. Women are great mentors. I just wanted to indicate that.

 

Madam Speaker, in our tradition, there is no man who is impotent. Every man can have children.

 

Mr Amutike: What?

 

Ms Sefulo:  Yes, that is what is believed traditionally. You know what I mean.

 

Madam Speaker, this is because a man does not need to carry a pregnancy. Traditionally, every man can have a child. The one who is placed with the shame of not having children is a woman. If I cannot have a child, everyone will know that I cannot have a child.

 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, when you ask a man how many children he has, I think, the best answer he should give is that he has two or three at home, because he does not know some of the children he might have elsewhere.  

 

Hon. Members: Question!

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Sefulo: That is on a lighter moment.

 

Madam Speaker, what I am trying to say is that the stigma attached to not having children is on women. However, gone are the days when women needed to consult before making their own decisions. If I want to have a child, and I am stable, why should I not get a donor and access in-vitro fertilisation (IVF)? When we are speaking about policy, we are addressing the issues that affect those who are victimised the most. If we introduce the policy on IVF and donors, why should we say that for a woman to have a child through IVF, she needs to have a husband? Not at all. A woman who is stable can get a donor and raise successful children. People say that women are the ones who ae barren. Who creates stability in a home? The one who creates stability is a woman. I will give you an example. If a man who is very stable marries an unstable woman, his home will be very unstable because the woman in the house is not  stable. For lack of better terms, I will tell you that those men whose behaviour was not okay when they were growing up, such that people asked the question, “Are these people normal?” have stable homes when they marry stable women. So, the person who provides stability is a woman.

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Members: Question!

 

Ms Sefulo: Yes.

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, we can conduct an experiment. We will take someone’s wife for one month, and see what will happen.

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, just two days after we take away the wife, that person will not even know where their socks are.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Mulenga: Even your wallet!

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, the ones who provide stability are women. Women should be allowed to make the decision to have children without –

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

 

Ms Mulenga: Quality!

 

Madam Speaker: Let us listen to this serious debate.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, many families have been affected by disease because of tradition. There was an intervention that would be made by families when there is no child in the home. They would ask the woman to bring her young sister to help.

 

Mr Mubika: Yes!

 

Ms Sefulo: In the end, you see infections happening. If that younger sister came with a disease, then, the disease would spread in the family. When you introduce services such as IVF, and regulate them, a couple can conceive a child even when they have fertility challenges. The woman can conceive through the process of harvesting her egg and fertilising it with semen. That will ensure that women do not experience that discrimination

 

Madam Speaker, secondly, a long time ago, talking about donating organs and all that was unheard of.  As science improves, even women who have challenges with their uteruses can conceive children, as there are surrogate options. I know that that comes with a lot of stigma, but the woman conceives a child that is biologically hers because she can produce the egg. As it is currently, you find that the woman is not able to conceive because the uterus is not okay, although she produces eggs. The introduction of IVF services means that we will also have surrogacy services. The only thing that I would speak to is that, as we are looking into legislating surrogacy services, we should ensure that we do not commercialise the services to the extent that our girls go into surrogacy to make money. It should be something that is done because a family is in need. Those who are identified to offer surrogacy services should already have children. In other countries, you cannot be a surrogate if you do not have children of your own. I think that is something that we should speak to as we are regulating these services.

 

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to say that women should be given the leeway to have children when they are financially independent, without it being the man’s decision.

 

Hon. Male Members: Question!

 

Ms Sefulo: Yes. They should be given that opportunity to have –

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, we want to go back to a time when it was said that if you want to access family planning services, you should come with your husband.

 

Hon. Male Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Sefulo: Do you remember that they used to say that?  Madam Speaker, as long as a man says no to family planning, that means that every year, as a woman, you will conceive. The woman’s body is hers. As long as I am financially stable, even though I am not married, and can conceive, I should get a donor and have a child. I can tell you that women can provide that stability.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, with that said, I submit.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Mulenga (Kalulushi): Tulefyala!

 

Laughter

 

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Kalulushi, to add my voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor.

 

First and foremost, Madam Speaker, I would like to commend my dear sister from Mwandi. Her words are exactly my thoughts.

 

Mr Kafwaya: Question!

 

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I would like to add more spice to the debate on what In-vitro fertilisation (IVF) has brought to society. Most of my male colleagues on this side of the House have been whispering to me that they do not have knowledge about what IVF has done in homes.

 

Mr Kafwaya: Question!

 

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, IVF has helped sort out many infertility issues. We have children who are born with down’s syndrome. With IVF, the embryos are assessed, and the mother is given healthy ones. What a happy beginning for a family.

 

Madam Speaker, IVF has brought a lot of happiness to homes. You can imagine that as a woman who has been married for many years, I do not have a child, would my in-laws on one side not mock me from morning to noon. To them, the reason their brother is unhappy is that I have not given him a child? Thanks to modern medicine through IVF, I have experienced the good, and I know of many of my relatives and friends who had torn-up marriages, conceive their own children because of IVF. Today, men are called bashi mpundu.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, because of IVF, we are allowing those women who, I believe, some of the men in this House have called rejected, have been able to conceive. Those who have been married, but have not been able to conceive, are now able to have children whom they love and raise in stable homes. It does not matter. Some men and women have been in marriages, but their children are a wreck. They are drug addicts,  yet they come from stable homes. So, marriage should not be a form of –

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Mulenga: Come again. Any form of what?

 

Ms Sefulo: Measure!

 

Ms Mulenga: Yes. Madam Speaker, it should not be any form of tick on the score that shows that if you are married, then your children will be the best. No, there are single parents who have raised credible men and women. I believe that the legal framework should not be limited. There should not be a hard thing about how people choose.

 

Madam Speaker, as the ministry responsible comes up with the legal framework, I would like to emphasise that it should not accept provisions on same sex marriages because that would be out of context. We are a Christian nation. IVF services also offer conception options to married same sex couples. As the legal framework is formulated in Zambia, we should do it according to our culture. That other aspect should be taken out. Otherwise, IVF for us, as women, is a plus. We were having difficulties. Madam Chisopa and I are planning on having triplets  after the general elections next year because IVF can offer that.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mulenga: It does not matter what age you are. We were restricted years back as it was said that when you reach the age of forty-five, you cannot have children, but with the creche that you, Madam Speaker, launched, the good news is that my colleague and I will bring triplets.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: Go ye and multiply. We need more voters.

 

Laughter

 

The Minister of Health (Dr Muchima): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Dr Alex Katakwe and the seconder for bringing to the attention of this House this important Motion on the need for a legal and policy framework to regulate the provisions of in-vitro fertilisation (IVF) and other fertility services. This is, indeed, a matter of great national and public health significance.

 

Madam Speaker, currently, the Health Professions Council of Zambia (HPCZ) guidelines for IVF are limited to married couples. Secondly, there is a provision for the full disclosure of donors, which is done voluntarily. Our health facilities can also conduct fertility tests, such as hormone analysis, sperm count and viability, and anatomic variability analysis and ovary health status.

 

Madam Speaker, infertility remains a major reproductive health challenge globally, including in Zambia. It affects both men and women almost equally and often leads to social stigma, emotional distress and marital disharmony, particularly among women who in many cultural settings are unfairly blamed for childlessness. Although national data is limited, regional evidence suggests that infertility rates in the Sub-Saharan Africa are higher than global averages, mainly due to untreated reproductive tract infections, sexually transmitted infections, and tubal damages.

 

Madam Speaker, to address this challenge, the Government, through the Ministry of Health, recognises infertility as a critical component of reproductive health. Accordingly, assisted reproductive health (ARH) services have been integrated into the national health care standards, developed under the Health Professional Act, No. 17 of 2024. These standards provide for the licensing and accreditation of health facilities that offer ARH services, including in vitro fertilisation (IVF), intrauterine insemination (IUI), ovulation induction, and related interventions.

 

Madam Speaker, under this framework, the Health Professionals Council of Zambia (HPCZ) is mandated to licence health facilities and accredit specialised services offered, therein. HPCZ has developed specific standards for facilities providing ARH services, covering infrastructure, staffing, laboratory quality, infection prevention, and ethical compliance. To date, two health facilities in Zambia have been licensed to provide IVF services in accordance with these standards.

 

Madam Speaker, while this development represents progress, the provision of IVF and related services has also raised a number of ethical and legal challenges that require comprehensive policy guidelines and legal provisions. These include issues of surrogacy, gamete and embryo donation, storage and ownership of embryos, the determination of parentage, and the rights of children born through ARH technology. To address these complexities, the Ministry of Health, in collaboration with the HPCZ, the Ministry of Justice, and other key partners, including the Zambia Association of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians (ZAGO), has completed a multi-sectoral stakeholder consultation process and submitted a comprehensive report to my office. My office is currently studying this report and will soon engage with the Ministry of Justice and other relevant stakeholders to undertake the necessary legal reforms to regulate ARH. Some of the key recommendations arising from the process include:

 

1. developing a new legislation, specifically dedicated to assisted reproductive health; and

 

1. conducting a desk review of existing legislation, that is, the Health Professions Act, the Nurses and Midwife Act, the Public Health Act, and the Data Protection Act, and proposed legislation, that is, the National Health Services Bill, to introduce the aspect of assisted reproductive health.

 

Madam Speaker, these matters have been considered in the revised National Health Policy, awaiting Cabinet approval. The policy has aligned current health priorities with emerging issues, including ARH, genetic medicine, and advanced medical technologies.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the Government remains fully committed to ensuring that ARH services are provided within a strong ethical, legal, and professional framework that safeguards public safety, upholds human dignity, and expands access to comprehensive fertility care for all Zambians.

 

Madam Speaker, in light of the above, I support the Motion.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, I just heard a whisper asking what motivated me to move this Motion. What motivated me were the sentiments expressed by the various debaters, who raised issues of stigma on women or couples who are not able to bear children, and also, the fact that we have very few clinics that undertake IVF services, which are mainly quite exorbitant, out of reach in terms of accessibility, affordability, and quality.

 

Madam Speaker, the people of Solwezi East would like to thank all the debaters, the seconder of the Motion, and also the hon. Minister of Health for his response. Indeed, this is the way to go. As a nation, we need to have strong policies that should be able to regulate the issues of IVF to create dignity for human race. Without proper regulation, we may end up bringing aliens or certain races that may not be of African origin. However, through proper regulation of IVF, research and embryology, we can, indeed, regulate the kind of race we need. We will be able to pass laws that will regulate such services in Zambia. So, I am so grateful that, indeed, everyone has supported this Motion, and I beg to move.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

INTRODUCE OPTIONAL ACCESS TO LUMP SUM RETIREMENT BENEFITS UNDER THE NATIONAL PENSION SCHEME AUTHORITY

 

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, that this House urges the Government to reform the retirement benefit structure under the National Pension Scheme Authority to allow contributors have the option of accessing lump sum payments upon retirement.  

 

 

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

 

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I want to thank you sincerely for according us this opportunity to move this Motion.

 

 Madam Speaker, this Motion is founded on the principle of collective responsibility that is upon this House. This particular Motion is apolitical, but it calls for all of us to take collective action and responsibility.

 

Madam Speaker, I rise to move this Motion and, in my preamble, allow me to make a clarion call and clarify that the Motion being tabled this afternoon is to allow for optional partial access to lump sum retirement benefits under the National Pension Scheme Act in a structured and sustainable manner without compromising the long-term viability of a pension fund.

 

Madam Speaker, at the centre of this Motion are over 1.1 million Zambian contributors, including workers who give a portion of their monthly salaries every month without fail. For many of them, their pension contributions are the only structured savings they will ever accumulate in their productive years, yet under the current legal framework, these contributors are locked out from accessing any portion of their funds until they either reach retirement age or exit employment permanently.

 

Madam Speaker, I move this Motion not to dismantle the NAPSA or drain pension savings, but to introduce a choice. This is because pension contributions are not a burden on the State; they are monies deducted from personal savings.

 

Madam Speaker, this Motion is guided by three principles as follows:

 

1. optional access: No one is compelled to access a portion of the funds. Contributors decide whether or not they want to access a portion of their funds at retirement stage;

 

1. sustainability: The proposal safeguards accrual integrity, ensuring the fund continues to grow in value and capability; and

 

1. preservation of retirement income: The remaining balance earns investment returns to secure dignity for contributors post-retirement in monthly annuities.

 

 Madam Speaker, the House will agree that the 1.1 million active NAPSA contributors are workers who have laboured, sacrificed and contributed faithfully to our national pension system. This includes the 3.3 million registered NAPSA members. They are not numbers. These are teachers, miners, nurses and police officers. These are ordinary Zambians whose lives sustain this economy, and it is incumbent upon this House to take a collective decision.

 

Madam Speaker, our Motion is not calling for the dismantling of NAPSA, for purposes of repetition. Our Motion is not calling for reckless withdrawals. Our Motion is not calling for the collapse of pensions. We are calling for one thing: choice. The Motion calls for partial lump-sum access at retirement, while maintaining the monthly pension structure and ensuring the long-term sustainability and strength of NAPSA. This Motion protects both the contributor and the institution.

 

Madam Speaker, NAPSA belongs to workers. A pension is not a favour. A pension is not a privilege. A pension is deferred income earned over thirty to forty years of service. All the millions of workers are asking from this honourable House this afternoon is: If the money is mine, then the decision must be mine too. Our proposal gives retirees the dignity to access part of their money when they need it the most, while preserving a monthly pension to safeguard their future and the sustainability of the institution.

 

Madam Speaker, we rise today not to break the system but to improve it. Upon retirement, partial access unlocks household liquidity. When households have liquidity, they spend. When they spend, businesses grow, jobs are created and tax bases increase. The multiplier effect of liquidity is developmental, not extractive. Allow me to provide a regional context. Countries such as Kenya, Namibia, South Africa and Botswana have adopted partial pension access reforms. These countries did not collapse their pension systems. Instead, they achieved three outcomes:

 

1. increased contributor confidence;

 

1. increased compliance; and

 

1. increased pension fund assets.

 

Madam Speaker, why? This is because people are more willing to contribute to a system that acknowledges their needs in real time upon retirement.

 

 Madam Speaker, we propose a structure of optional partial access with a cap. The amount accessed is limited. A percentage of accumulated contributions leaves the remaining balance to continue compounding interest. This ensures that post-retirement contributors will have an income in the form of monthly annuities. Let me emphasise that this Motion does not introduce a full withdrawal of pensions. It does not promote reckless depletion of pensions, and does not undermine investment returns.

 

Madam Speaker, under the current regime, the worker suffers twice; deductions throughout their entire life as well as financial strain at the point of retirement when they are transitioning into a new phase without financial flexibility. The current minimum amount of our national average earning annuity is K1,800 per month. What can a retiree do with this money? This is part of the elephant in the room this afternoon.

 

Madam Speaker, the question before this House is simple, yet critical: Should retirement savings save the worker only through monthly annuities averaging K1,800 per month, or should they also provide flexibility at the point of retirement through an optional lump sum? If our pension system is to reflect the lived reality of our people, then, it must evolve. Under the current framework, when a contributor dies and leaves behind biological children above the age of twenty-one, those children are automatically locked out from accessing the parent's benefits, even if they are still in college or university or not yet economically independent. Education in Zambia does not end at twenty-one, and life certainly does not become financially easier after a parent passes away. This is not just a policy gap. It is an injustice. The families already dealing with emotional trauma or loss should not be subjected to financial hardship imposed by the very system meant to protect them. The NAPSA should never be an institution that says to a biological child of a deceased contributor: “We have your parents' money, but we cannot give it to you because you are twenty-one.” That does not reflect social security. That reflects bureaucratic insensitivity. The policy must reflect the reality of today's education journey and the financial vulnerability that follows. Our pension system must protect families, not add to their pain.

 

 Madam Speaker, I heard of an argument that retirees should not be allowed to access a partial lump sum at retirement because many of them make bad investment decisions. This is precisely why financial literacy is a critical pillar of this Motion, to ensure that contributors are empowered with knowledge to make informed decisions. However, we have to be honest and fair. It is not individuals only who sometimes make bad investment decisions; even pension funds do. The NAPSA has in the past made investment decisions that did not yield the expected returns. A case in point is the Society Business Park. This investment had consequences. Some businesses that occupied the property, including major employers such as the Hilton Hotel and Pick n Pay Zambia, exited or downsized operations. Some employees were even declared redundant as a result, the very contributors whose funds were invested in this scheme.

 

Madam Speaker, this example demonstrates two realities:

 

1. bad investment decisions are not exclusive to individual retirees; and

 

1. a well-structured institution like NAPSA is capable of misallocating funds, too.

 

Therefore, the argument that retirees cannot be trusted to manage their own money cannot stand. This afternoon, the clarion call to this House is that we stand with the workers and support this Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.  

 

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

 

Mr Mwila: Now, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for affording me this opportunity to second this progressive and non-controversial Motion, ably moved by the Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya, Hon. Sunday Chanda.

 

Madam Speaker, from the outset, let me state that, as the mover of the Motion has put it, this Motion is not about dismantling the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA). It is aimed at modernising the way the State pension system under NAPSA is managed. Yes, the people who framed the law regarding NAPSA in 2000 considered the circumstances or events at that time. However, with the passage of time, many changes have happened economically and socially in our country. Retirees of now and in the future are not in the same situation as the retirees of the past when the National Pension Scheme Act was established.

 

Madam Speaker, this Motion is urging the Government to provide for optional access to partial or lump sum payment upon reaching the pensionable age. Yes, some people may argue that we are actually pushing an open door with this policy. Yes, the door may be open, but it is partially open for some and closed for others. The National Pension Scheme Act, under Section 18, provides for the conditions under which one obtains a pension. The first one is that one must reach the pensionable age, and the second is that one must have contributed not less than 180 monthly contributions. When one meets these conditions, among others, then, one qualifies for a lifetime pension under NAPSA. That is in Section 18. However, if you go to Section 21 of the Act, you will see why I am saying that this door is partially open for some and partially closed for others.

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was explaining what the law is, as it exists under the National Pension Scheme Act, and I explained what Section 18 means.

 

Mr Anakoka: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

There is an indication for a point of order.

 

Hon. Member for Luena, what is your point of order?

 

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order on the mover as well as the seconder of the Motion. I have been listening attentively to the debates and have been referring to the Motion constantly. The Motion is about introducing optional access to lump sum retirement benefits under the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA). However, both the mover and the seconder have constantly mentioned partial withdrawal, which is different from what is on the Floor of the House for debate. Are the two hon. Colleagues in order to debate something different from the Motion that they have presented to the House? The nation is waiting to hear whether the House will say, “Yes” or “No” to the Motion, and yet what is being debated is different from what is on the agenda.

 

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The mover and seconder, I hope that you know the focus of your Motion. The Motion states:

 

“That this House urges the Government to reform the retirement benefit structure under the National Pension Scheme Authority to allow contributors have the option of accessing lump sum payments upon retirement.”

 

That is the Motion on the Floor of the House. I am sure you agreed that this was the subject matter surrounding the Motion on the Floor. So, as you debate, focus your debate on the Motion on the Floor.

 

Hon. Member seconding the Motion, please, debate according to the Motion on the Floor of the House. You may continue with that guidance.

 

Mr Mwila: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, the Motion is clear. In seconding, the points that I am raising are in line with the Motion, if only I can be allowed to finish my submission. I was giving the background. As you said, the gist of this Motion is to allow contributors to have the option of accessing lump sum payments upon retirement. Do we have that provision currently? The answer is no. That is why I was saying that the current National Pension Scheme Authority Act, under Section 18, sets the conditions for accessing the pension, which stipulates that if one has reached retirement age and has made not less than 180 monthly contributions, then, they qualify for a pension. However, in the same Act, there is an option for a lump sum payment, which is provided under Section 21, but the condition states that someone must reach the retirement age and must have contributed less than 180 monthly contributions. So, there are two classes of contributors: one who qualifies and one who does not qualify. This Motion seeks to level the playing field so that anyone who reaches the retirement age has the option to access the lump sum payment upon retirement. Unless the law is reformed to provide for that, as things exist, it is not permissible.

 

Madam Speaker, the majority of retirees fall in the category under Section 18, where they do not have an option to access lump sum payments. They are placed on a life pension, which, in most cases, as it stands, is K1,200 minimum. One can imagine a worker who contributes to NAPSA from a salary of K10,000 or K15,000, receiving K1,200, monthly, at the end of his or her working life after he or she is referred to NAPSA for their pension. The maximum is about K10,000 or K11,000, which is far less than what most of workers would even have been getting when they were working.

 

Madam Speaker, why is this Motion being moved? This Motion aims to financially empower retirees and save them from destitution. Someone would have spent twenty-five or thirty-five years of their life working. If he or she worked for thirty years, and failed to have decent accommodation from their monthly income and, at the time of retirement, they are still renting a house, what would become of them when their monthly income is reduced as a result of the current law, as far as NAPSA is concerned? How would that person survive? Some people are working and contributing to NAPSA with ideas in mind. They are pushing some businesses, but at a small scale, because they do not have enough money or capital to inject into those businesses. They hope that upon retirement, they will have access to some money, which will boost their businesses and help them send their children to complete their education at college or whatever level of education. Their hope is in receiving a lump sum amount. Their hope is in having access to a retirement package that would enable them to sort out the financial challenges that may have been boggling them throughout their working life. As things stand, it is not possible. Hence, this Motion urges the Government to reform the law so that, upon retirement, retirees have access to lump sum payments. This situation is not unique to Zambia. That happens in our neighbouring countries, like Kenya. Once this Parliament approves this Motion, actuarial experts should be tasked to design a system that will incorporate what this Motion seeks.

 

Madam Speaker, those who work in the Public Service and contribute to the Public Service Pensions Fund (PSPF) have what we are pushing for under NAPSA. Upon retirement, they access a bigger chunk of their pension. A minimal amount is paid to them after the lump sum is paid. Those who contribute to the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) have the same conditions. The situation is only unique to NAPSA. Of course, the design of the three funds I have mentioned; LASF, PSPF and NAPSA, is different, but the NAPSA law needs to catch up with the PSPF and LASF.

 

Madam Speaker, this Motion is progressive and non-controversial. The House should not dwell on the language being used. The point is that this House must urge the Government to introduce a law that will allow NAPSA contributors to have the option of accessing lump sum payments upon retirement.

 

With those words, Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, about twenty of you have indicated to debate. So, please, let us avoid repeating ourselves. If you have nothing significant to talk about, you can even take five or four minutes so that as many hon. Members as possible can debate this Motion.

 

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would like to also thank my colleague, Hon. Sunday Chanda, the mover of this Motion, and the seconder, my brother, Hon. Mwila.

 

Madam Speaker, this Motion, in my view, is very clear. I believe it seeks to introduce choices for those who qualify, but are not provided for under the existing law. This refers to individuals who reach retirement age and have contributed for more than 180 months to the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA). The questions that came to my mind while considering this Motion are many, but I will discuss just a few.

 

Madam Speaker, employees contribute to NAPSA not on a voluntarily basis, but on a mandatory basis. It is compulsory. If you work, then deductions will be made, and NAPSA will receive the money. At the end of your working life, you then go to NAPSA and you are put on a monthly annuity. This means that NAPSA will begin to pay you on a monthly basis. Again, this is not your choice. If you have contributed for many months, much more than 180 months,  NAPSA takes away your ability to choose to get a lump sum. Therefore, the mover is suggesting that those who have contributed for more months should be able to go to NAPSA and say, “I have now come to the end of my work life. From the money I have contributed, give me a part of it now, or give me all of it now.” This is a choice being offered to a retiree who has served  the nation, whether in the public or private sector. We are currently serving . We are contributing to NAPSA.

 

Madam Speaker, time will come when we shall go to NAPSA, then we are told, “Go home, we will be paying you on a monthly basis.” We will have no choice but to follow that. However, let us consider what choices we offer people. Choices shape lives. If I am given a choice, I can shape my life in a much more dignified manner because I decide how to use my money. I can decide where to invest that money. I feel more dignified because it gives me a sense of control. It is my money, and I should be in control of it. This is a worker's money, someone who has retired, he/she needs to be in control. Why should a retired person, someone who has served the country with dignity, be prevented from having a choice over his /her own money? I do not believe that anyone can deny the fact that choices foster personal growth. NAPSA will not make one grow.; It will give one a monthly annuity, a monthly salary. It uses its own formula in which contributors do not participate. So, the outcome is for NAPSA. However, at the end, if one is told that his/her money is K10,000 and they ask to be given K9,000, and to be receiving an annuity of K1,000, that is more dignified because out of K10,000, one can start a grocery store. One cannot start a grocery store from K1,500. It is not possible.

 

Mr Amutike: On a Point of Order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, these issues of choice will give one what I consider a sense of fulfilment because –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

A Point of Order is raised.

 

 Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, I am seated here, wondering what the debater, who is on the Floor, is talking about. He was an Executive hon. Member, a Cabinet hon. Minister, and had the opportunity to implement such a law …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Amutike: … and even the possibility of having a 100 per cent withdrawal of one’s pension. Currently, only the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has shown the appetite to take care of the workers by introducing this Motion.  We, on your right, also support this Motion because it seems to be progressive. However, we want to ensure it is carefully examined by professionals so that it can be sustainable. Is it in order for a person who was an hon. Minister and who failed to implement this issue to start debating it now when he had an opportunity to do so while serving as an hon. Minister?.  For ten years, he had that opportunity to change things. He now wants to debate the Motion, which, we on your right are already agreeable to and ready to support. We just want to subject it to ensure that it can be sustainable.

 

Madam Speaker, I raise this matter pursuant to Standing Order No. 71, on relevance.

 

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, today is Wednesday, when hon. Members of Parliament are supposed to bring Motions to this House freely. Any Member who wishes to debate simply needs to indicate and then proceed. This day is open to all hon. Members of Parliament, whether they are former hon. Ministers or current hon. Ministers, to bring Motions or participate in debates. It is the duty of hon. Backbenchers to bring Motions to the House, and all hon. Members have the right to debate. Therefore, the hon. Member for Lunte is in order to debate the Motion.

 

Hon. Member for Lunte, you may continue.

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, your grace is radiating in my heart. I can see how your power can be challenged. It is you, Madam –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon.  Member, just proceed with your debate. I have already ruled. Please, continue with your debate.

 

Mr Kafwaya: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I was about to say that you recognised me to debate. It is shameful how your authority can be challenged by a Member of Parliament.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, please, continue with your debate.

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the point I was trying to make is on  boosting self-confidence. This means that if I take control of my decisions, as a worker now retired, I feel I have control over my contribution to the nation. By the way, NAPSA is already making a lot of payments. I do not understand why anyone should be concerned about a lump sum going to a former worker, a retired worker, when NAPSA can pay over US$600 million to a foreign contractor for road works.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, NAPSA is already paying lump sums.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker:  Hon. Member for Lunte, can we stay focused on the Motion. Let us focus on the exact matter in the Motion. What we are discussing in the Motion.

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, this is opening up opportunities for those workers who made contributions.  This is about offering choices and dignifying retirees. This is about increasing the lifespan of those who die because of re-grading their pay from K35,000 to K5,000 a month.

 

Madam Speaker, if someone is given K100,000 as a partial lump sum upon qualification, or even more or less, they can use it to buy a car for  Yango business, and it can help them much more than that monthly annuity. This is why I support this Motion. When I was a Minister, no Motion of this nature was promoted by a Backbencher. If a Backbencher had promoted a Motion like this, I would have supported it. If a Motion like this came after six months, assuming the United Party for National Development (UPND) refused it, I would still support it. Supporting a Motion like this is like agreeing that people have suffered through paying mandatory contributions, and that it is time for them to take control of their own money. It is also agreeing to say that it is time for those who utilised the people’s money to pay them a lump sum, as they wish. This could be a full lump sum or a partial lump sum. However, NAPSA should not discriminate. It should not say that it can pay only those who have contributed for more than 180 months. It should pay everybody because all workers are the same. All workers should be seen as the same.

 

Madam Speaker, NAPSA should not behave like ZESCO Limited. ZESCO Limited is funded by taxpayers, but when it comes to getting power, people are told that the company can provide power for only three hours. So, NAPSA should be different.

 

Madam Speaker, I wish, once again, to appreciate my hon. Colleague for bringing this Motion.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I just want to add one or two words to the debate on the Motion. First of all, let me thank the Member for Kanchibiya, Hon. Sunday Chanda, and the mover, Hon. Mwila, Member of Parliament for Mufulira.

 

Mr Kolala: The seconder.

 

Mr Miyutu: The seconder, yes.

 

Madam Speaker, the Motion on the Floor of the House has one or two words which are very significant. The Motion has introduced the words, “optional, lump sum, and pension.” Human beings are unique. We are quite unique, and our uniqueness is not transferable. What I am is not what someone else is. My wish cannot be another person’s wish. This is what we have to bear in mind.

 

Madam Speaker, a pension is the money which is paid to a person at the end of their employment. This implies that a pension is the last money a person receives. So, when it slips out of a person’s hands, then that person becomes vulnerable. A person can register as a beneficiary under the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) programme. Maybe, I have not stated my position. I am not against the Motion. However, we have to be realistic with this Motion. We want someone to get a pension in its totality, hoping that he or she will do something to sustain life. I have talked to two or three people who are getting monthly annuities from the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA). Yesterday, I had a conversation with someone who wants a full pension. I was encouraging him by telling him that when he gets his last money, he should have to be very careful. We have seen people get a full pension but at the end of the day, they become stressed and destitute in the community, yet they got all their money.

 

Madam Speaker, for example, in a park, if you see a hyena, just know that there is a lion or a leopard nearby. So, hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, why has this Motion come to the House today? A hyena follows a leopard because it knows that a leopard is going to catch something. The hyena will scare the leopard, and then the leopard will leave the carcass. Hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, to me, this Motion has come because there is hope that the Government is attending to the people’s needs. To me, the Motion adds credibility to this Government. If there was no hope, I do not think that this Motion would have come to this House. I have been here for ten years; such a Motion has never been here.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

 

Mr Miyutu: The reason is simple. There was no care for the worker.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Miyutu: Now, there is light at the end of the tunnel. That is why an hon. Member had the courage and strength to move this Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, the policy of partial withdrawal of 20 per cent of a pension was implemented. It was not there …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Before this Government!

 

Mr Miyutu: … from 1964. It became a policy only when the United Party for National Development (UPND) New Dawn Government came to power. This is where the strength and inspiration for the Motion came from. It is natural.

 

Madam Speaker, whilst I understand this Motion, I am still saying that we should not encourage what is going to make some people vulnerable, that will make them go back to the Government to seek for help when they become destitutes after spending the money.

 

Madam Speaker, a person can work for thirty or forty years but would want to build a house with their last money. Is that the way we plan? We do not plan like that. Do they know the cost of a house? Why would they want to spend their last money on a house? Some people bury- The money will finish before they even finish building the house.  What will happen then? We do not plan like that. Dear workers, do not do that. As you start working, plan for your house before you retire. When you retire, go to your house. When you spend the pension, that is when you will realise that there is nothing like a lot of money or a little money, because you already have a house. You cannot use a pension to build a house. For me, this is the word of caution I have added. We should not rush, or else, we might put others in a state of destitution.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to debate, on behalf of the people of Chienge.

 

Madam Speaker, we are here as the people’s representatives. We are here to present what people want to hear, not what those who belong to political parties want to hear. This is a very emotive Motion. It is not about what we feel. Where on earth do people want to be told how to spend their money? Even we hon. Members, here, would we want somebody to tell us how to spend our money at our age? Many teachers and civil servants have been crying and “in boxing” nearly every hon. Member, saying, “Please help us.” How do you expect the monthly pension from the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) of about K1,000 to help somebody? When they were working, they were getting a minimum of K3,000. With the high cost of living and inflation in our country, you go and pay someone K1,000. For what? That is a mockery.

 

That is our money. I am also a contributor to NAPSA. I would want to use my money. To show the nation that we mean business, as hon. Members of Parliament, we are supposed to talk about how to introduce financial literacy. During the period that people wait to receive their money, they should undergo training to learn how to use the money. This Motion is about having options. The provision is an option; we are not talking about everyone. It is not mandatory. We are asking the Government to revisit the Act so that it can help the very people who gave it the mandate. People did not send us to this House to mock them. This is an emotive Motion. We should not trivialise it. Civil servants are highly indebted. Currently, they receive nothing because NAPSA is busy enjoying their money. They borrow from shylocks and, at the end of the day, they walk away with nothing. So, when they retire, the pension is their hope.

 

Madam Speaker, what is lacking in how we have been trained as Zambians is entrepreneurship skills and knowledge on how to manage finances. We have not been trained in these two components. That is why, for those I would say it is too late to attain that training through education, the Government should train them during the waiting period, for when they want to collect the money, even if it means getting a minimal percentage of their money. We have been doing it with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) loans. We educate loan beneficiaries on financial literacy before they receive the loans. We can do the same with NAPSA. Others do not even know how to manage the funds.

 

Madam Speaker, in our country, we believe that agriculture is what one ventures into when one retires. Agricultural skills were supposed to be taught when we were in school so that we would practice them after school. When you look at managing finances, nearly every Zambian cannot manage his or her finances properly. It is done poorly. Everyone in this House owes whosoever or the banks, because we believe that borrowing is a way of life. I urge my hon. Colleagues on your right to not look at the Motion through political lenses. This is their litmus test. They should think of their sisters or brothers who are civil servants.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, they can say, “Question!” because they know where they have been getting money.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chienge!

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I want to tell them, and I want them to know. ­

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Chienge, you are debating through the Chair, not through the hon. Members. So, just address the Chair.

 

Rev. Katuta: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, I want them to know. They can say, “Question!” and, if they want, they can even shoot the Motion down like they do to other Motions.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, the truth of the matter is that this is not a Motion we should joke about. We are talking about lives. People have committed suicide after retirement because they carried over the debts that they had. Their hope was that if they got something, at least, they would start keeping chickens or whatever.

 

Mrs Masebo: On a Point of Order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A Point of Order is raised.

 

Hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources, what is your Point of Order?

 

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, apologies to the hon. Member on the Floor. I am not one who normally interrupts when another hon. Member is debating.

 

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to insinuate that we are against this Motion when the truth is the opposite? Is she in order to mislead the public?

 

Hon. PF Members: What Standing Order has been breached?

 

Mrs Masebo: Standing Order No. 71.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Chienge, it is like you are thinking on behalf of your fellow hon. Members. Only one hon. Member from the right has debated. We are yet to hear from other hon. Members so that they tell us, through their debates, whether they are against the Motion. So far, we do not know. That is why it is important to bring out your own views. Give an answer on whether you are for or against the Motion. Please, do not involve other hon. Members. You have the Floor now. Are you against the Motion or are you for it? You were out of order.

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I am a Zambian, and I am passionate about civil servants. I come from a family where there are many civil servants.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Rev. Katuta: I live with them, and I understand their pain. I do not come from an elite family. So, I understand exactly what the mover of the Motion is talking about.

 

 Madam Speaker, all the mover is asking is that the contributors, including myself, have an option, not the way it is at the moment. For that reason, I support this Motion. When, as a House, we agree, I will be the first one to rush …

 

Ms Sefulo: To where?

 

Rev. Katuta: … to NAPSA next year to get my money.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Mwandi, to add my voice to the debate on the Motion that is on the Floor of the House. I have no intention of taking up the whole eight minutes allocated to me, as I debate this Motion. I will go straight to the point.

 

Madam Speaker, when the New Dawn Government came into power, one of the things that it did was introduce the 20 per cent partial withdrawal option under the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA). I remember very well because the matter was under the consideration of my Committee. The sentiments at the time were that NAPSA would collapse, as it would not be able to make the payments. As you may have seen, the Government has managed to pay everyone who has applied for the 20 per cent withdrawal. That is how much this Government cares for the civil servants.

 

Madam Speaker, let me also declare that we are in support of this Motion, and I will explain why. Firstly, as the chairperson of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters, I am well aware that NAPSA is currently undertaking reforms. From what I gather from the hon. Member who has moved this Motion, he is also aware of the fact that the Government has intentions to make reforms, which include the matters in this Motion.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, that is why I am taken aback. The technocrats will help bring reforms to this House to take care of the civil servants. As hon. Members of Parliament on the right, we are in agreement, because the mover of the Motion is knocking on an open door. The matter is something that is already being addressed. There are reforms that will be presented on the Floor of this House to ensure that we take care of the concerns that are being raised by hon. Members. When I look at the list of indications for the debate, I do not understand why we should even continue debating because everyone agrees. As I support this Motion, I am saying that the reforms are on the way. They are already being worked on. My Committee has already been briefed on the reforms that are coming under NAPSA. The technocrats have already done the background work, but before they can even bring the reforms to Parliament, there is already a Motion on the Floor of the House discussing what is already being done. How do you urge someone who has already been urged?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, how do you knock on a door that is already open?

 

Mr Chewe: On a Point of Order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members, this is the last Point of Order that I will allow. We are behind time.

 

What is the Point of Order, hon. Member for Lubansenshi?

 

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for, once again, giving the people of Lubansenshi the opportunity to raise a point of order.

 

Madam Speaker, let me first apologise to my colleague, hon. Member for Mwandi, for disturbing her line of thought.

 

Ms Sefulo: The chairperson.

 

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 71. Is the hon. Member for Mwandi in order to continue debating when, in the actual sense, she has already agreed to the Motion? All of us are in support of this Motion, which should be allowed to pass so that civil servants or those in both the formal and informal sectors can start accessing lump sum payments for their pensions. Is she in order to continue debating when the House has already agreed?

 

I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, there is a procedure that we follow when dealing with Motions. We cannot just stop an hon. Member from debating a Motion simply because everybody else has agreed to it. There is a question that has to be put forward at the end. The hon. Member for Mwandi has the right to debate. So, she was given the Floor. Therefore, she is not out of order. In fact, hon. Member for Lubansenshi, you are the one out of order.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwandi, you may continue.

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, let me point out that the hon. Member for Lubansenshi, who rose on a point of order, is in my Committee. As you can see, he has not indicated to debate because he knows that the reforms are on the way. He is actually one of those involved in the reforms. That is why he has not indicated to debate. He is very much aware that the reforms are coming.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you may continue with the debate.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to say that, as I already indicated, one cannot knock on a door that is already open. The door is open and what we are waiting for – Actually, for me, I think NAPSA is well ahead of this Motion. The Motion is behind and NAPSA is ahead. We are very behind.

 

Hon. UPND Member: Very behind!

 

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, the Motion has been presented late because, from what I have been informed, reforms are already underway. So, inasmuch as the Motion is good, and it speaks to the social security of civil servants and other related issues, it is running behind everything else that has already been done.

 

Madam Speaker, we fully support Hon. Chanda. However, it is just that the Motion is behind schedule. We support him and I can assure him that the Government is already doing something about the issue under discussion. I know him and from that smile, I can tell that he is aware. With that said, I submit.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker:  Hon. Members, having heard from the Patriotic Front (PF), the United Party for National Development (UPND) and Independent hon. Members of Parliament, we can now make a decision. So, I will allow the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to respond.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba): Madam Speaker, there is so much to be shared and debated, but I am aware of the time limits. I just wish to begin by thanking the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya Constituency, Mr Sunday Chanda, for moving a Private Member’s Motion entitled, “Introduce Optional Access to Lump Sum Retirement Benefits Under the National Pension Scheme Authority”. I also want to thank other hon. Members of Parliament, including the seconder from Mufulira, for having debated the matter. I also want to acknowledge the public debate that has been going on for a long time over this matter.

 

 Madam Speaker, as the Minister of Labour and Social Security, I wish to assure all the stakeholders that the Government is not oblivious to the concerns raised. It remains committed to ensuring a sustainable, equitable and secure pension framework for all citizens. That is the reason the hon. Member for Mwandi said that this Government, the New Dawn Administration, came in with an agenda to reform the pension system or rather the social security system. Therefore, the reforms that are going on are to ensure that we look at the whole package beyond NAPSA and address all the flaws for the purpose of ensuring that our workers, our dear social partners, are well taken care of and well covered, not only from the pension point of view, but also from other perspectives of benefits for social security.

 

Madam Speaker, as the Government, we have demonstrated commitment by the introduction of the partial withdrawal of pension benefits; one benefit that was unimaginable before the New Dawn Administration came into office. Not many believed in us, but it was delivered, and many who were naysayers were the first ones to go and stand in the queue to benefit, but no one was left behind. This was a significant step aimed at providing pension fund members with immediate financial support, while preserving the long-term integrity of the pension system. This measure was part of our broader efforts as the Government to adapt our pension schemes to the evolving needs of our population, especially on the labour market.

 

Madam Speaker, as you may be aware, on 30^th January, 2025, the Cabinet approved, in principle, a comprehensive package of pension reforms under the leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema. This approval marked a critical milestone, demonstrating the Government’s resolve to modernise and strengthen our pension systems. The approval included the repeal and replacement of the National Pension Scheme Act No. 40 of 1996, aimed at enhancing benefits, compliance and sustainability of the scheme. The reforms will also review the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF) and the Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF) and open them to new membership. Further, the reforms will introduce the Specified Officers Pension Benefit Bill in order to establish a contributory statutory pension scheme for state officers.

 

Madam Speaker, the reforms are being spearheaded by the steering and technical committees, comprising various stakeholders. There are two committees; the technical and steering committees, comprising various stakeholders, have take in the principle of tri-partism, ensuring that the Government, employers and workers’ representatives are all present. This will ensure that no one is left behind in terms of providing input, as we do through the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council (TCLC). So, the technical committees are a mirror of that.

 

Madam Speaker, with specific reference to the lump sum payment, the proposed amendment that we are undertaking, as approved by Cabinet, provides for the following:

 

More Flexibility with the 20 per cent Early Withdrawal into a Lump Sum

 

Madam Speaker, currently, a worker can get 20 per cent of their pension savings before retirement. The new provision will allow members to access a 20 per cent lump sum at retirement as well. Further, the current considerations include increasing the partial withdrawal to a percentage higher than 20 per cent. This means that the members will have the option to access partial withdrawal as well as a lump sum at the time of retirement, other than just the time they are working.

 

Voluntary Extra Contributions

 

Madam Speaker, the Government is being innovative through the technical committee. The NAPSA will introduce an additional sub-scheme, which will be voluntary in nature. Current contributing members and new members will be allowed to save extra money from their pockets, banks or businesses into NAPSA if they want to. This option will help them to get even more money after retirement, which they can take as an additional lump sum.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Extra Pension for Civil Servants

 

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, civil servants like teachers and nurses employed after 2000 are currently only covered by NAPSA. The proposed reforms will allow civil servants to also contribute to the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF) or the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF), where they will be entitled to obtain lump sum benefits at 40 per cent. The payment from NAPSA will be the first pot of their pension, while the PSPF or LASF will be the second pot. This is in addition to the retirement lump sum that is to be introduced under NAPSA.

 

Madam Speaker, for the private sector, there are over 230 occupational pension schemes under the supervision of the Pensions and Insurance Authority (PIA), which also provide for a lump sum. Private sector employers are encouraged to establish private occupational pension schemes or join existing ones.

 

Madam Speaker, while the idea of a lump sum has garnered a lot of interest, I want to clarify that the Government is focused on implementing reforms that will balance not only the immediate but also the future financial security of the members, as well as the long-term sustainability of the scheme. We do not want to leave retirees vulnerable without adequate annuity structures. Members have different requirements and priorities throughout their life cycle. Monthly pensions become more important as people age, as they provide a predictable and regular source of income after retirement, helping retirees meet their daily needs, especially the majority without savings or family support.

 

Legal Provisions to Support the Reforms

 

Madam Speaker, the legal provisions to support these reforms are now in their final stages of refinement. We are about to embark on the second round of provincial consultations, engaging with stakeholders, trade unions and employers to ensure that our reforms are inclusive, transparent and effective. I wish to inform this august House that after the provincial consultations, the proposed reforms will be presented to the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council (TCLC), which is the legitimate consultative body as espoused in the Industrial and Labour Relations Act Chapter 269, after which recommendations will be submitted to the Cabinet.

 

Madam Speaker, we have aligned our proposals with the International Labour Organisation (ILO) Convention No. 102 - Social Security (Minimum Standards) Convention, 1952, which allows for lump sums with the caution that they must be regulated to safeguard minimum periodic monthly payments, because lump sums should complement and not compromise the adequacy of monthly pensions.

 

Madam Speaker, the ministry, working in collaboration with the ILO and the Embassy of Ireland, today, 12^th November, 2025, launched the Gap Analysis Report, which seeks to encourage Zambia to ratify the ILO Convention No. 102 to ensure total coverage. We are moving progressively, as we have already met the four requirements. We will be allowed to ratify the convention even when we have the first four requirements. That indicates that Zambia, under the New Dawn Administration, is safe for all workers and retirees because the Government is seeking a comprehensive social security system.

 

Madam Speaker, the door is open for the proposition that has come through the Motion, because the Government is already way ahead. The door is open, and this Government is ready to take on the propositions that have come through this Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, allow me to pay glowing tribute to my dear sister, the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security. Allow me to take this opportunity to thank the Government for the magnanimity with which it has responded to this Motion. Allow me to also thank the hon. Members on the right and the left for supporting the Motion.

 

Allow me, Madam Speaker, to emphasise that the reason for this Motion was not partisan. It was not political. It is because I believe in collective responsibility. Let me thank the seconder, my very good brother from Mufulira, Hon. Mwila. We are believers in collective responsibility. The Government has three tiers, that is, the Executive, the Judiciary and the Legislature. When we come into this House to deal with matters such as this one, we take out what is political and look at what is good for our people.

 

Madam Speaker, let me also salute the interventions underway by the ministry and encourage it to heighten and quicken the interventions so that more benefits can accrue to our people.

 

Madam Speaker, I do not wish to prolong my winding up of the debate. I just want to say thank you to the Executive and to this honourable House for unanimously supporting the Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

MOTION OF SUPPLY

 

(Debate resumed)

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, before I pick an hon. Member to debate, just be reminded that tomorrow will be the last day for the hon. Backbenchers to debate the Motion of Supply.

 

I thank you.

 

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to debate the Budget for 2026.

 

Madam Speaker, today, I will not talk much. I want to simplify the things we have been talking about since I came to this Parliament. I will use terminology that the people of Chasefu can understand, as we look at the estimates.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the New Dawn Administration for always being prudent. In my opinion, the budgeting system that the Government adopted in 2022 is pro-poor. Why do I say so? The Government is looking at the people of Zambia equally, without segregation. For your information, in the past, if you had gone to Chasefu and looked with your physical eyes, you would have thought that it is not part of this country. However, since the New Dawn Government came into power, there has been an increase in the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which is given directly to the people.  The Government has proposed to increase the CDF to K40 million in the 2026 Budget.

 

That is unprecedented and incomparable. We, as Zambians, should be thankful that this allocation is being given to all parts of this country without segregation. Whether you are an Independent hon. Member of Parliament, like me, an Opposition hon. Member, like my brothers on the left, or an hon. Member of the Ruling Party, you are given the money equally. That is how a country should be run.

 

Madam Speaker, there are certain terminologies that I hear people use when debating. I hear them talk about what the previous Government did. Indeed, the previous Government did something. However, I want to qualify and make some terminologies simple for the people of Zambia.  I hear the Executive using terminologies like debt restructuring. The people of Chasefu and an ordinary person in the compounds should know what debt restructuring means. We should take time to explain that. Yesterday, I was taken aback when an hon. Member who was debating said that there is nothing that this Government has done. That prompted me to debate today. Those who were part of the previous Government say they built airports, constructed roads and the flyover bridges in Lusaka. I see the infrastructure, and I use it because I live here, but that Government did nothing in Chasefu. What happened? If that Government built infrastructure, which is very good for the country, then, the people of Zambia should know that. No one should fault it, but did it pay cash? It borrowed extensively without paying back. When the current Government; the New Dawn, came into power, it started paying off that debt.

 

Mr Chala interjected.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Iwe, sit down!

 

Mr Nyambose: Now ­

 

Mr Chala: On a Point of Order, Madam Speaker.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, I need your protection. I want to make the terminology simple. Debt restructuring means mwakongola ndalama, then, you–

 ­

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What does that mean?

 

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, I am coming to that. I want to use cinyanja so that the people can understand. When we say debt restructuring, it is like this person akongola ndalama kuti ayende apange ici cintu; apange airport or ma road. Akongola ndalama zambili zamene akangiwa kulipila. They borrow a lot of money to build airports, which is good for the country, but they have not paid for that infrastructure.

 

Mr Chala: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Nyambose: They borrow a lot of money to build airports, which is good for the country, but they have not paid for that infrastructure.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chasefu!

 

 Hon. Members, I had ruled that we are behind time. Tomorrow is our last day. We also have less than twenty-one minutes before adjournment.

 

You may continue, hon. Member for Chasefu.

 

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, we need to tell the Zambians.

 

Mr Chala: No. Do not mislead them.

 

Mr Nyambose: When you hear about debt restructuring, those who borrowed–

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Did you complete the translation?

 

Mr Nyambose: Yes, Madam Speaker, I am explaining now.

 

Madam Speaker, those who borrowed to build infrastructure did not pay off the debt. Now, the people are told that when this Government says that there is no money, it is because the people who lent the Government the money are demanding it back, and a failure to pay means that they will grab anything from us. So, since this was a new Government, it asked if it could be allowed to pay back the money slowly. The previous Government did not pay, but they built infrastructure. So, now, who built those things, if these are the people who are paying back the money?

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nyambose: Wamene alipila olo uja wamene anakongola nomanga, no lipila, or the one who is now paying off the debt?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What does that mean, hon. Member?

 

Mr Nyambose: Who built the property? Is it the one who is paying off the debt, or the one who built? If you borrow money, you have to repay the owner.

 

Madam Speaker, I wanted the people of Zambia to understand. What does it mean when you have this jargon like debt restructuring? We are confusing the people. People borrowed recklessly and, because of that, Chasefu had nothing. Works on the Chipata/Lundazi Road were abandoned. The work was supposed to be the regrading to bituminous from an all-weather gravel, which they did not even do. However, they borrowed, and they were doing things in Lusaka. I always say that Lusaka is not Zambia. Chasefu is part of Zambia, a rural part that the Government is giving K40 million. So, we should be thankful because now we all belong to one country. So, while this Government needs to deal with the electricity challenge and work on the Chipata/Lundazi Road, as it extends to Chipangali, Lundazi, Lumezi, Chasefu and Chama, when I hear people say that this Government has not done anything, I think that is not accurate. The road has not been worked on to bituminous standard. We want this Government to work on it so that we can fully benefit.

 

Madam Speaker, let us explain debt restructuring in detail. Baja bana kongola to build did not do anything; it is the people who are paying back the debt are the ones who built infrastructure.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you translate that, hon. Member.

 

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, those who borrowed did not do anything; the people who are repaying the debt are the ones who did all those things.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Mr Nyambose: That is the reality.

 

Ms Phiri: Question!

 

Mr Nyambose: That is the reality, Madam Speaker. We should be able to tell the Zambians the truth. It is unfair to attack this Government. The people in this Government are human beings too, but they have done better in four years than the previous Government. I have K40 million to decide on what to do with it, given by a responsible Government. So, to fault people, and to say that President Hakainde Hichilema is not doing anything, and that you built this and that is not fair. If we go to church, we should tell the truth. Wakongola, siubweza. Bamene babweza, baja, ndiye bamanga. That means that those who borrowed did not do anything, those who are paying back are the ones who are responsible and prudent.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, I thought I should debate in that manner so that the people of Zambia people can know. We should appreciate what the previous Government did, but it borrowed for majority of the things that it did. No one is burning money now. They were burning part of the money they borrowed in bars. You borrow money, you burn some of it, then, you neglect Chasefu. The people of Chasefu cannot abandon a Government that gives them K40 million.

 

 Madam Speaker, I need more time so that we can talk about real things.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

Mr Nyambose: Let us help the people.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Sabao (Chikankata): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Chikankata, to add my voice to the debate on this important Motion, and the report of the Expanded Budget and Planning Committee.

 

Madam Speaker, before I go into details of my debate, allow me to congratulate the New Dawn Government for working so hard that 82 per cent of the 2026 National Budget will be locally funded. That means that the Government is working, and that is what we call a methodical Government. I would also like to thank the New Dawn Government because sixty-one years after Independence, the people of Chikankata will have a bituminous standard road. The contractor is currently on site, and that is because of the hard-working team under the leadership of Mr Hakainde Hichilema.

 

Madam Speaker, I will focus my debate on page–

 ­

 

Ms Sefulo crossed the Floor.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mwandi.

 

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, I will focus my debate on Page No. 5 of the report, where it states the following:

 

“The Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC)

 

The allocation to ACC has increased from K179.9 million to K199.96 million in 2026. However, the funding remains inadequate to meet staffing needs, with only 365 officers against the establishment of 407[PMC1] .”

 

Madam Speaker, the ACC is a strategic institution in this country, considering that the fight against corruption is one of the top agenda items for the New Dawn Government. So, a human resources challenge under this institution is not good. More money needs to be allocated to the ACC so that it can have more human resources. We need officers in the field to educate our people on the dangers of corruption. When we talk about corruption in this country, the first person you think of is a politician. Corruption is a mind game. It starts in our homes. In our communities, when you greet someone, the next thing he or she will say is, “Tulyemo”. That is corruption.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What does that mean?

 

Ms Sabao: Madam Speaker, meaning let us eat with you, so, you will have to give them something. Therefore, it is very important that more officers are employed so that they can go out there and sensitise the communities on the dangers of corruption.

 

Madam Speaker, as hon. Members of Parliament, we are here working for the Government, but someone out there is giving out 1 kg of salt, manipulating people’s minds that since he has given them salt, come next year, he wants to be their Councillor, Member of Parliament or President. What does that mean? That is corruption, but we have focused on looking at hon. Members of Parliament. In this country, the moment an hon. Member of Parliament or an hon. Minister builds a house, he/she is called a thief. Let us change the mindset by ensuring that even the communities understand the dangers of corruption, because corruption encourages poverty in the country.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Sabao: So, it is very important that we increase the budget allocation for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) so that it can employ more people.

 

Madam Speaker, the other issue is that most officers trained by the ACC only work, maybe, for two years, then they go to other institutions, such as the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), because of low salaries. So, it is very important that the Government changes the conditions of service for officers at the ACC so that there is sustainability of workers at the institution.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Sabao: Madam Speaker, allow me to discuss why the Local Government has remained inadequate in managing the resources under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). We have had a challenge with the Local Government in relation to the CDF. When we go to the local authorities, we often find that the Council Secretaries, the Directors of Engineering and the planners are out attending workshops. Every week, these officers are either in Livingstone or Kabwe attending workshops. What time do they implement whatever they are taught at those workshops?

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Sabao: Madam Speaker, this has really affected the implementation of projects under the CDF. I urge the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to change its strategy. It can hold one workshop in a year to educate its officers. Thereafter, the officers should be given an opportunity to go and implement whatever they have been taught, unlike attending workshops the whole year. The allocation to cover administrative costs under the CDF, is all used by officers who attend workshops in Livingstone. When we call the Council Secretaries or Town Clerks to find out the progress on the CDF projects, we are told that they are not in the office because they would be attending a workshop. So, when are they going to implement the projects?

 

Mr Munsanje: Hammer, hammer!

 

Ms Sabao: Madam Speaker, the ministry should look at this issue because these people cannot be spending more time in workshops, unlike implementing projects. We all know that the CDF is a flagship of the New Dawn Government. So, our officers need to be on the ground so that they are able to monitor the projects being funded by the Government. When projects are not monitored, contractors do not go on site. Contractors are given resources, but if there is no engineer on the ground to supervise the works, they leave the site. By the time it is realised that the job done was not right, money would have already been spent, and it is very difficult to reverse that. So, the ministry must give workers an opportunity to be in offices and go out in the field to monitor the activities being implemented using the CDF.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to talk about the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), and in the report, there is an issue of restructuring it. To be honest, FISP is not a problem, but the problem lies in the way our officers are working. You will find that a co-operative with twenty people is only given five packs, and those people are forced to share the five packs among themselves. The Government’s plan is that farmers on FISP graduate after three years, but how do they graduate if five packs are shared among twenty people? It means that we are digging a hole to bury a hole. It is important that all the twenty people in a co-operative get an equal share so that after three years, they graduate and other co-operatives are also given the packs. However, the situation on the ground is different …

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, your time is up.

 

Ms Sabao: … and that is why the programme is not even changing the lives of people. It is like we are now encouraging poverty using FISP.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simunji (Nalikwanda): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to debate the 2026 Budget.

 

Madam Speaker, my debate will revolve around debt restructuring, which the hon. Member for Chasefu talked about. Debt restructuring refers to a situation in which a debtor goes to a creditor to renegotiate the conditions and terms on which a debt was incurred. In our case, the country had reached a stage where it was not able to pay the loans it had acquired from the international market. Between 2011 and 2020, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government borrowed a lot of money, such that it was not able to pay the interest on the loans. The Government defaulted on the loans it had gotten from the international market. Now, if it failed to pay interest on the loans, what about the principal? The country was not able to pay both. As a result, the following happened. The economic growth rate became negative, inflation grew day in and day out, the Kwacha was devalued, the country was not able to employ teachers and medical staff and it was not even able to buy medical equipment for hospitals. The country had reached a stage where it did not know where it was going. I wonder why the hon. Members on the left are even saying that this Government is borrowing and they do not know where it is taking the money.

 

Madam Speaker, the people of the Central Province and the Western Province know that in 2013, the PF Government floated a tender for the construction of the Kafue Hook Bridge. For eight years, the PF Government could not work on that bridge. The New Dawn Government came to power and worked on the bridge. Currently, we are very happy with that bridge.

 

Madam Speaker, after debt restructuring, what has happened? Currently, inflation is going down. Everyone here in this House knows that inflation is going down every day. The Kwacha is appreciating because of debt restructuring. The terms and conditions of the loans were relaxed, and we can see enough cash flow in the country, which is why the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has been increased. Further, we have seen the employment of teachers. Our schools have enough teachers now. When you go to schools in places like Nalikwanda, you will find that they all have desks. In 2021, when we took over the Government, children in schools were sitting on the floor. How would you feel if you went to a classroom and found your children sitting on the floor? Teachers had no tables and chairs to sit on. Today, because of debt restructuring, the Government has enough resources to employ people even in the defence forces.

 

Madam Speaker, what I can say to the hon. Members on your left, who say that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is borrowing a lot of money and that they do not know where the UPND is investing the money, is that they should look back and see whether what they are talking about is a reality. The PF Government promised the people of the Western Province that it would construct a university there. Maybe, my eyes or ears do not tell me the truth. When I go to the Western Province, I see that the site for the university is there, but nothing has been constructed. Nothing has happened. However, with the New Dawn Government having restructured our national debt, I can see hope in the future.

 

Madam Speaker, currently, children can go to any Government school anywhere in the country and learn for free. What we do, as parents of the children who are attending Government schools, is just buy uniforms and books. Children are fed at school. Where is the money coming from? The PF said that it was not able to offer free education. When you look at the Budget, you will see a portion that has been allocated for paying local creditors because of debt restructuring. The Government is also able to service the external debt, which our hon. Colleagues failed to do. This means that the people who are leading this country know what they are doing.

 

 Madam Speaker, I do not want to talk much.  I think this is enough.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, allow me to focus on Vote 03, which is the National Assembly.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

 I think, we cannot just stop the proceedings like that for Vote 03. We arranged that those who want to debate on Vote 03 will do it tomorrow, so that we have some order. So, you will be given the opportunity tomorrow.

 

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Speaker, thank you. Then, I will debate tomorrow.

 

Mr Ngowani (Mpongwe): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, let me start by commending the Republican President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, for showing leadership when the country is going through many challenges. The country is going through many challenges, but the President and the Cabinet are seeing to it that things are put in order. The economy is on the right track, with a projected 5 per cent increment next year, 2026. The President is up to the task of ensuring that the economy of Zambia is placed where it is supposed to be. With the Budget being funded through domestic revenue, I see that going forward, it will be implemented 100 per cent without relying on foreign support.

 

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Ngowani: Madam Speaker, in 2022, the Government ­

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpongwe, we are almost winding up. It is, in fact, time up. When you are given the opportunity to continue with your debate tomorrow, please, be factual so that you do not mislead the public.

 

Mr Ngowani rose.

 

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: You will do that tomorrow.

 

Mr Ngowani: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

ADJOURNMENT

 

The Vice-President (Dr Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

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The House adjourned at 1825 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 13^th November, 2025.

 

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