Thursday, 3^rd July, 2025

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

 

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM CHRIMA ACADEMY SCHOOL

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from Chrima Academy School of Chirundu District.

 

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

 

I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM KWAMWENA CHRISTIAN ACADEMY SCHOOL

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from Kwamwena Christian Academy School of Lusaka District.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

 

I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other Government business, the Minister of Defence, Hon. Ambrose L. Lufuma, MP, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House from today, Thursday, 3^rd July, 2025, until further notice.

 

I thank you.

 

OBSERVANCE OF PARLIAMENTARY ETIQUETTE AND DECORUM

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, it has been sadly noted that decorum and etiquette in the House, and observance of the rules of debate, as contained in Chapter 11 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, are on a decline. To this effect, I wish to reiterate what the Hon. Madam Speaker said in her announcement on 23^rd February, 2023, on the need for decorum and etiquette in the House. Order 63 provides that hon. Members may only speak when called upon by the Presiding Officer. Further, Order 72 prohibits the use of unparliamentary language in the House. Unparliamentary language includes the use of offensive, provocative, insulting, threatening or obscene language.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

 

We are talking about decorum.

 

In terms of Standing Order 214, hon. Members are required, among other provisions, to:

 

1. listen in silence to the debates in the House;

 

1. not obstruct, interrupt proceedings or make disruptive running commentaries when another hon. Member is speaking;

 

1. resume the hon. Member’s seat as soon as the Presiding Officer rises to speak or calls out “Order” or when a point of order is raised; and

 

1. to not argue with another hon. Member who is debating.

 

Any hon. Member found in breach of any of the rules of parliamentary etiquette and decorum will be dealt with in accordance with the rules of the House.

 

I thank you.

 

_______

 

URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

 

MR SAMPA, HON. MEMBER FOR MATERO, ON THE ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE, ON WITHDRAWING THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA (AMENDMENT) BILL NO. 7

 

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, on an Urgent Matter without Notice.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: An Urgent Matter without Notice is raised by the hon. Member for Matero.

 

Mr Sampa: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter without Notice is current, of national interest and specific. It deals with an illegality. On 27^th June, a ruling was made on Case No. 2025-CCZ-009, in the Constitutional Court of Zambia, involving Celestine Mukandila and Munir Zulu versus the Attorney-General, effectively versus the Government, and some of the orders in the ruling rendered the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 7 (Bill 7) illegal and unconstitutional.

 

Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter without Notice is directed at the hon. Minister of Justice, Madam Kasune, but I see that she is not in the House. I presume that the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, the hon. Minister of Defence, will take it up. Is the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House in order to keep Bill 7 alive on the Table of the House? The Bill was only deferred, meaning that it is still active. Is he in order to keep an illegal Bill in this House instead of withdrawing it permanently? Is that not flying into the teeth of contempt of court for this House to sit with the Bill still on the Table?

 

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Matero, I think, somebody tried to bring that matter to the House, and Madam Speaker gave a ruling on it. Moreover, Urgent Matters without Notice are supposed to be raised within twenty-four hours of occurrence. However, you mentioned 24^th June, 2025, in your matter. So, because of those two reasons, your matter is not admissible.

 

MR CHEWE, HON. MEMBER FOR LUBANSENSHI, ON THE ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE, ON A WATER SHORTAGE IN LUWINGU DISTRICT

 

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, on an Urgent Matter without Notice.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: An Urgent Matter without Notice is raised by the hon. Member for Lubansenshi.

 

Mr Chewe: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Lubansenshi, to raise an Urgent Matter without Notice.

 

Madam Speaker, the matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, but in his absence, it is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President through the hon. Minister of Defence. As I raise this important matter, I am upset about what my people in Luwingu District under Lubansenshi Constituency are going through. Yesterday, when people woke up early in the morning, they found that the whole district had no water. You may wish to note that Chambeshi Water Supply and Sanitation Company Limited (ChWSSC) is the company mandated to provide water to the district. As we speak, schools within the central business district (CBD), have no access to water. So, some pupils have been requested to go back home, meaning that they are missing out on their learning programmes. Some clinics and hospitals also do not have water. People are now asking me, as their Member of Parliament, what has happened and what should be done. I tried to engage the relevant authorities at the Chambeshi Water Supply and Sanitation Company Limited, but their phones went unanswered. So, I decided to bring the matter to this House so that, together, we can find a lasting solution for the people of Lubansenshi District and Luwingu District to have clean water. That is the prevailing situation and it is very sad.

 

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. Did you try to discuss the matter with the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation?

 

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, as you can see, the hon. Minister is not in the House, unless he has just joined us.  His phone is not reachable.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My main reason for asking is that what you have raised is an urgent matter, which cannot wait for a Ministerial Statement to be issued. At least, try to get hold of someone at the ministry. Furthermore, you can file in an urgent question that can be attended to, maybe, by Tuesday. In the meantime, please, try to make an effort to resolve the matter. We are going into the long weekend. So, try to go to the hon. Minister’s office or you can come with an urgent question.

 

MR MUTINTA, HON. MEMBER FOR ITEZHI-TEZHI, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF LABOUR AND SOCIAL SECURITY, MS TAMBATAMBA, ON ILLEGAL DEDUCTIONS MADE ON PAY SLIPS FOR CIVIL SERVANTS

.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): On an Urgent Matter without Notice, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: An Urgent Matter without Notice is raised.

 

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter without Notice is directed to the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security. The matter concerns the illegal deductions made on the pay slips for most civil servants, particularly teachers and those in the health sector.

 

Madam Speaker, I have two pay slips that were generated yesterday for demonstrative purposes. On some teachers’ pay slips, almost the entire salary has been deducted with payments to unions, online lending institutions and banks. In some cases, no agreement was signed and there was no consent from the civil servants. Therefore, civil servants are stressed. Those are some of the causes of mental health disorders and many other challenges like suicide that we are witnessing among civil servants.

 

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to not come to the House to guide and tell civil servants, who are working very hard to move the machinery of this country, what the Government is doing to ensure that such theft is dealt with? Civil servants need to lead decent lives by using the money they work for and not have someone deduct it without their prior knowledge.

 

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi, when did that happen?

 

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, I have a pay slip that was issued yesterday. Somebody showed me a pay slip that was received yesterday. So, as far as I am concerned, it is an issue that happened yesterday.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I feel the matter has been ongoing for some time. Hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi, you can file in an urgent question so that the hon. Minister responsible can respond to the concerns that you have about deductions on teachers’ pay slips.

 

We make progress.

 

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 

ADJUSTMENT OF TRANSPORT FARES IN RESPONSE TO FUEL PRICE REDUCTIONS

 

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali): Madam Speaker, allow me to begin, first of all, by congratulating the United Party for National Development (UPND) …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Tayali: … on its resounding success in the by-elections that were recently held in our country. As a follow-up, kindly permit me to equally congratulate our newly-elected hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi and join my hon. Colleagues, both on the left and right, in welcoming him to this august House.

 

Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this rare opportunity and privilege to deliver a Ministerial Statement to this august House and, through it, inform the rest of the nation on the adjustment of transportation fares. I will also take this opportunity to avail information to this august House on the mechanisms that the Government uses to regulate bus fares in response to changes in fuel pump prices.

 

Madam Speaker, for the record, it may please this august House to learn that it is the operators, in collaboration with the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA), that have the responsibility of adjusting bus fares on a monthly basis, depending on adjustments to fuel pump prices. The adjustments are determined using a cost-based fare model that was developed by the Bus and Taxis Owners Association of Zambia (BTOAZ), in collaboration with the Government through RTSA. This model provides a structured framework to assess the impact of fuel price movements on operational costs for public service transport providers. The model is evidence-based, taking into account variables such as fuel consumption, maintenance, depreciation and administrative costs. The changes in fares are implemented to ensure fairness to both transport operators and the commuting public.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to state that the Government, through the Minister of Transport and Logistics, a position that I currently hold, courtesy of the Zambian people, through the appointing authority of His Excellency, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, President of the Republic of Zambia, approves the proposed price adjustments by the operators in collaboration with RTSA. That is done in a manner that balances the need to sustain public transport operations, on one hand, and protecting the commuting public, on the other hand, from unjustified increases. From January to June, 2025, my ministry, through RTSA, and in collaboration with BTOAZ, has consistently applied the bus fare adjustment model in response to fuel price changes. This period recorded various fluctuations in pump prices. Accordingly, the bus fare model was applied to determine appropriate adjustments.

 

January, 2025

 

Madam Speaker, I will now provide an update for January, 2025 to date. In January, 2025, there was no increase in the price of diesel, but there was an increase in the petrol price. However, the increase in the price of petrol was below the trigger point of at least K2 to effect a change in fares. Therefore, there was no adjustment to the bus fares and, consequently, no announcement.

 

February, 2025

 

Madam Speaker, in February, 2025, there was a marginal increase in the price of diesel and petrol, which was below the trigger point of K2. Therefore, there was no adjustment to the bus fares.

 

March, 2025

 

Madam Speaker, there was no increase in both the price of diesel and petrol thus, there was no adjustment to bus fares and consequently, no announcements.

 

April, 2025

 

Madam Speaker, there was a significant reduction in the price of diesel from K32.54 to K30.23, which resulted in a reduction in prices for intercity routes by 2.4 per cent. Other routes, mainly inter-mine and peri-urban routes in Lusaka and other towns were reduced by K1.

 

May, 2025

 

Madam Speaker, there was again, a significant reduction in the prices of both diesel and petrol from K30.23 to K27.38 and K34.98 to K32.14 respectively, resulting in the reduction of prices for intercity routes by 3.3 per cent while prices for inter-mine and peri-urban routes reduced by K1.50

 

June, 2025

 

Madam Speaker, there was yet another significant reduction in the price of diesel from K27.38 to K25.13, resulting in a price reduction for intercity routes by 2.7 per cent. Petrol reduced from K32.14 to K31.36, resulting in a reduction of prices for all the local routes by an average of K1.

 

Madam Speaker, this august House may wish to note that on one hand, there has been a gradual reduction in prices for intercity routes of 8.4 per cent from March to June, 2025. On the other hand, the gradual reduction of prices for local routes has been 3.5 during the same period.

 

July 2025

 

Madam Speaker, for the month of July, the prices for diesel and petrol have reduced from K27.12 to K23.13 and from K31.36 to K28.00 respectively. The Government has engaged the Bus Owners and Taxis Association of Zambia (BOTAZ) on the proposed bus fare adjustments.

 

Madam Speaker, once the fuel price change is announced, the operators, together with RTSA undertake a process to assess and implement fare revisions. The following steps are undertaken:

 

Analysis

 

Madam Speaker, when the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) adjusts fuel prices, the Government through the RTSA initiates an immediate technical review using the fare model.

 

Stakeholder Engagements

 

Madam Speaker, the RTSA meets with BOTAZ to validate the model's output.

 

Ministerial Approval

 

Madam Speaker, proposed fare adjustments are submitted to my office for policy and administrative clearance.

 

Public Notification and Enforcement

 

Madam Speaker, once approved, new fares are publicly announced through formal communication channels. Enforcement teams ensure compliance across the country.

 

Madam Speaker, it is important to note that the model also accounts for modest thresholds in fuel price changes. This prevents reactionary fare increases or decreases for marginal fuel price fluctuations and ensures pricing stability and predictability for the public and operators alike.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to reiterate that the Government remains committed to fairness and transparency as it creates an enabling environment that balances the needs of stakeholders, passengers and operators alike. The Government will continue to monitor bus fare adjustments in line with the fuel pump price adjustments while upholding the principles of consumer protection, affordability and operational sustainability.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

 

Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the Ministerial Statement rendered by the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics.

 

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): I am grateful, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, the statement that the hon. Minister has just read out gives me hope that we shall continue on the same trajectory. I am sure passengers expect more reductions in bus fares. The hon. Minister mentioned the associations that are involved in the reduction of bus fares, but I did not hear him mention the passengers' association. He just said that BOTAZ comes up with a fare, which it takes to his office for policy and so on and so forth. Does the ministry engage the passengers in effecting the reduction of the fares?

 

Mr Tayali: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I also thank the hon. Member for the question.

 

Madm Speaker, the hon. Member will agree with me that what we are talking about is sustainability of public transport operations. When there are adjustments, either upwards or indeed, downwards, the people who are affected are those who offer a service, who at the end of the day, obviously, expect a return on the service that they offer. Therefore, the Government is there to provide guidance so that passengers are not unduly subjected to unreasonable bus fare adjustments. I do not think, that it is reasonable to expect and engage passengers to ask them how they feel about what sort of adjustment we must be able to make. So, the Government comes in to protect the social aspect of our citizens to ensure that an increase is basically within the margins that are acceptable for operators to make a return.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the statement.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister may wish to note that the biggest component in the transportation and commuter industry is fuel, which fuel we import. So, the biggest factor is the exchange rate. The exchange rate appreciated in the last two or three months by a good 17 per cent from about K28 per US$1 to about K23 per US$1. Its performance against the US Dollar and other major currencies has started improving. The Kwacha was the best performing currency in the whole world.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Sampa: Now, my funso, question is: best-performing since the Kwacha was performing, the hon. Minister’s statement is hinting that prices for everything else need to come down. From experience, when the exchange rate goes up, bus fares are increased by a huge margin. Now, when the exchange rate is doing very fine, prices are reduced by a small margin. Further, the hon. Minister is only talking about commuter buses. What about the price of Jet fuel because the price has also come down? Are we going to see Zambia Airways reducing flight fares?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, will the Government ensure that there is a significant reduction in the fares by the same margin that the exchange rate appreciated; the 20 per cent? Why is the Government not reducing the mini-bus fares by 20 per cent and not by 1 per cent and start making headlines on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Television or radio by saying it has reduced the price of fuel? Is that also becoming Tayalinomics?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Matero, I have heard more than three questions or so. What is your question, so that the hon. Minister can answer? Just one question for the hon. Minister.

 

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, is Tayalinomics increasing the bus fares so that it reduces again by a small margin? Is that what he is doing?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, if this were a courtroom, somebody would have objected to say, ‘Relevance!’

 

Madam Speaker, there was very little relevance in the question that the hon. Member posed. We are dealing with a very specific question about bus fares and what modalities the Government utilises in order to ensure that the commuters in the country are protected.

 

Madam Speaker, I gave a very comprehensive statement, a factual statement, on the Floor of this House. So, the hon. Member should have done well to pay attention. The question that the hon. Member has posed, perhaps, should be directed to the Energy Regulation Board (ERB). He has talked about the crude oil price adjustments on the global stage and that is not contained in the question that was posed and in the Ministerial Statement that I have issued.

 

Madam Speaker, I shall waste no further time on that question.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, most of us who travel from Lukulu, Zambezi, Lusaka and vice versa, suffer. We have heard the hon. Minister say that there is engagement. When is the engagement going to finish so that we can see the benefits of what is happening?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, there is an indication for a point of order. So, before the hon. Minister comes in to answer, I will allow the hon. Member for Lunte to raise his point of order.

 

Hon. Member, what is your point of order?

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for according me the chance to raise an extremely important point of order on the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics.

 

Madam Speaker, is it not the practice or tradition that when a follow-up question is asked by any Member of Parliament, you, Madam Speaker, direct the hon. Minister to answer the question? Is it not the practice? How can you direct a Minister to waste time?

 

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics in order to tell you that a directing him to answer the question is wasting time?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, you made an announcement on decorum, not long ago. Where is decorum in a Minister telling you that your direction is wasting time?

 

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, you have not cited the Standing Order that has been breached. Secondly, when you come up with a point of order, you are supposed to have one matter in mind. You have talked about decorum and the response from the hon. Minister. You were supposed to be very specific. Is your point of order on the response by the hon. Minister, or is it on the decorum of the House? So, because of that, your point of order is not admissible.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: It is not complete as well.

 

The hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics may respond to the hon. Member for Mitete.

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, yes, indeed, the current system is obviously on a month-by-month basis. Today being 3^rd July, 2025, I said that the latest bus fare adjustments are yet to be concluded. I am pretty sure that the stakeholders, the Bus and Taxi Owners Association of Zambia (BTOAZ) and the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) should be winding up. As soon as the decision is brought to my attention, I shall be able to approve it for public announcement.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, the transport service in this country is not provided by the Government but by private operators, just as many other goods and services. In Zambia, we have a free market economy. A free market means that prices of goods and services will be determined by the market itself. Demand and supply should set the price for transport, which we are discussing, and for mealie meal or any other thing. Why has it been so difficult to just let the market determine the bus fares, rather than coming up with a formula for setting prices and meeting with the Bus and Taxi Owners Association of Zambia (BTOAZ)? Transport is a service run by the private sector.  So, why not allow demand and supply to determine the prices?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, let me just say to the hon. Member that we are talking about mass transportation, not taxis. There is a difference between the two. The Government reserves the responsibility to take care of the social aspect of transportation to regulate it. In regulation, we are not determining the price. The operators, through BTOAZ, sit with RTSA to adjust the prevailing bus fares and look at how they will impact people negatively or positively in the case of a downward or upward adjustment. Then, they figure out what would be reasonable, and that is where the Government aspect comes in, to ensure that there is reasonableness in the adjustments, particularly, with bus fare increases.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, the issue which was raised by the hon. Member, of  when the cost of transport would come down, is very topical in Feira. Therefore, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask a question.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, in his statement, referred to himself as the Minister of Transport and Logistics, courtesy of the people of Zambia through President Hakainde Hichilema. Allow me to make this statement. A minister, by the way, is a servant. The word ‘minister’ means servant, and in this case –

 

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Feira, we are not here to educate anybody. Your role, right now, is to ask a question on points of clarification. What is your point of clarification on the Ministerial Statement presented by the hon. Minister in the House.

 

You may go ahead.

 

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, I was not going to take too long on that one, but it is very important for me to explain that because most of these hon. Ministers think that they are bosses, instead of servants. At least, today, they have known that a minister is a servant.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr E. Tembo: It is in the dictionary.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what is your question?

 

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, the people put us in office, and the majority are commuters. The model that the hon. Minister has explained, I was hoping that he would not take long on it, but he did. In my view, that model is biased towards the operators, not the commuters. Why not relook at the model? Like I proposed earlier, the Government needs to include the association responsible for commuters or, indeed, to take a strong stance on behalf of the poor Zambians. Of course, we are mindful of the need to strike a balance. So, it is very important to include the consumers. Why not change the model?

 

Madam Speaker, I think that we need the answer on the reduction in the cost of transport as soon as possible.    

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I am at pains with the hon. Members on your left. They are somewhat quick to forget the role of the Government as far as this sector is concerned. Let me put on record that this is not a formula that has come with this Administration. It has been that way since the Government pulled out of running the transport sector. The Government needed to find a balance between what it would take to have the public transport sector sustainably operate in this country, courtesy of the second republic of the late President Fredrick Chiluba, and the liberalisation of the market, which the hon. Member referred to. I think, this formula has worked well. Hence, the reason we now see that wherever one goes, one finds that buses wait for passengers, not vice versa, as was the case before the liberalisation of this sector. The Americans would say, “If it ain't broke, don't fix it”. This is something that works. I am sure, it worked under the Patriotic Front (PF) and the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Governments, and it is still working under the New Dawn. I am sure my hon. Colleague knows that the Government is a going concern. We get rid of the things that do not work, but so far as this particular model of price adjustments is concerned, reacting to fuel price changes, I think that this has served us well.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mabumba (Mwense): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister spoke about fairness and transparency. Looking at the broader picture, the Government’s role largely focuses on regulating public passenger services. Maybe, the reason is that when fuel prices reduce, we need to safeguard public disposable income as well as the impact on the cost of living. However, when one looks at the players within the transport sector under which the hon. Minister is the custodian, there are also truckers, and as the hon. Member for Matero mentioned, even airlines. When fuel prices reduce, they are not regulated. So, in terms of regulation going forward, while the ministry regulates passenger services, why not also focus on the truckers, because they also have an impact on the cost of living and the disposable income of the public?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, once again, we are dealing with a specific question that gave rise to a specific Ministerial Statement on bus fares, and that has been adequately tackled. The hon. Member is perhaps being mischievous or is forum shopping, as he has now brought in the aspect of truckers, which is completely different. The level of profit that truck operators have to operate with compared to those who operate buses is different. Those who move copper, for instance, make sufficient money. That is not a subject for today.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Musanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, sorry, I have withdrawn my question.

 

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for presenting the Ministerial Statement.

 

Madam Speaker, I am alive to the fact that it is not only fuel that constitutes operational costs for bus owners. There are other factors such as escalating costs of spare parts, insurance and road tax. So, when the ministry engages the stakeholders to arrive at the fares, does the ministry take into account the factors that I have mentioned to achieve a win-win situation in which the travellers and the bus owners are happy and are able to sustain their businesses?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member puts it as though the Government dictates the terms under which it responds to fuel pump price adjustments. That is contrary to the spirit of the statement that I have just issued on the Floor of this House. From the outset, I stated that this is a collaborative effort. The bus and taxi owners, working in conjunction with the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA), know best the conditions under which they operate. They are the ones to put into consideration all the factors that affect their businesses. They are the ones who propose the percentage of adjustments in bus fares. The Government comes in, again, to look at the reasonableness aspect. Once that has been determined, it is rare that this office declines an adjustment either upwards or downwards because one would believe that the two critical stakeholders would have built consensus on the matter. So, they take care of their interests. We look at ensuring that the commuting public is not unduly subjected to unfair upward adjustments of bus fares.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I understand that there are many factors in bus fare adjustments and that bus operators have many issues to handle, like spare parts and tyres, which are highly priced. The major component of a transporter business is fuel. I was checking the numbers when the hon. Minister was giving out figures. He started from thirty-two to the current figures. Fuel has reduced by 25 per cent. Our colleagues have also reduced. Adding up the statistics coming from the hon. Minister, the reduction is less than 6 per cent. The United States (US) Dollar depreciated and the Kwacha has appreciated, meaning that we also expect the price of tyres and spare parts to reduce because those are sold for equivalent to the US Dollar.

 

Madam Speaker, I know the hon. Minister has no power, and I understand, to negotiate. However, his team negotiates with bus operators. So, as the team negotiates, is it in a position to tell the operators to pass on the benefits that they have at a given time, in terms of fuel reduction from the Government, to the passengers at a certain rate? If there has been a 25 per cent fuel reduction in the last four months, why not give out a 10 per cent bus fare reduction? The hon. Minister may wish to note that bus fares from Nyimba to Lusaka have not changed. They have been the same since January. So, the figures may be on paper, but there is no implementation. Therefore, is the ministry able to advise bus operators to pass on the benefit that they get from the Government to the consumers?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, that sounds like a question that I answered another hon. Member. It appears as though the hon. Member is being myopic in the assertions that he has made. I have restated on this Floor that all the factors are actually put into consideration and that ours, as a ministry, is to ensure that we protect both parties. This Government wishes to promote job and wealth creation for our citizens. Therefore, we would not allow those who offer a key service, in order for this country’s economic wheels to continue turning, to be subjected to unprofitable or loss-making businesses. That is why, to date, I do not think any stakeholder would complain about the state of affairs.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you. 

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, the manner you have used the word ‘myopic’ is unparliamentary. Withdraw it and replace it with a better word.

 

Mr Tayali: I withdraw the word ‘myopia’ and replace it with ‘shortsightedness’.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Zulu rose.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Nyimba!

 

Hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics, withdraw the second word you have used and replace it with a better word that would not be disrespectful to the hon. Member of Parliament for Nyimba, who asked the question.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, for want of a better word, I withdraw the word ‘shortsightedness’ and replace it with the phrase ‘the hon. Member, perhaps, lacks reasonableness in his viewpoint’.

 

Mr Zulu rose.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, kapena ni cimbuya.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I withdraw what I have just said. Perhaps, the hon. Member may find a suitable word to make the point I was trying to drive at.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr S. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for putting in place a good mechanism to reduce bus fares. However, is there any punishment for those who will not comply with adjusting the fares downwards? If there is, what punitive action will be taken against them?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Naupya iwe!

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, suffice to say that since stakeholders, such as the BTOAZ, are engaged, we expect self-regulation. Once it is agreed, they will implement what the Government has approved regarding the adjustment of bus fares. I do not think that punitive measures in this case are the way to go. We must continue to build a spirit of co-operation among stakeholders in the public transport sector. However, I urge the RTSA to up its game insofar as enforcement is concerned. I know that those who are found wanting in that respect have to pay a fine.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, fuel is one of the components in the running costs of bus services. When fuel was at K17 per litre, the people of Nakonde were paying K200 as bus fare from Lusaka to Nakonde. After the New Dawn Government came into power, the people of Nakonde are now paying a bus fare of K500 from Lusaka to Nakonde. What is the hon. Minister, the chief advisor to the President, doing to ensure that the promise that fuel would cost K9 per litre is fulfilled, for the people of Nakonde to benefit from the reduction?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, it is in such instances that one would pray for protection. Questions like the one from the hon. Member makes one sad to listen to, especially given that the public is watching. He has given me a title, which I do not have, as the chief advisor to the President.

 

Mr Simumba: At the Ministry of Transport and Logistics!

 

Mr Tayali: He wants me to go and remind the President to reduce fuel to K9 per litre. Surely, we are conducting serious business here. I have tackled a serious question and justified and given credence to the processes that the Government undertakes insofar as ensuring that bus fares are adjusted upwards or downwards depending on the fuel pump prices.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, the fuel pump price is determined through a formula of reviewing certain factors every month. Every month, people expect to see new fuel prices. We get excited when the fuel pump price goes down, just as it has done recently. In that regard, we are looking forward to commuters enjoying the benefits of reduced  transport fares.

 

Madam Speaker, my question is: Can the fuel pump price adjustment model be related to the transport fares adjustment done by the Bus and Taxis Owners Association of Zambia (BTOAZ) and the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA)? The bus fares model has to feed into the fuel pump price model. Every month, when new fuel pump prices are announced, we should also see a price reduction or increment for transport fares. Is the ministry considering announcing fuel pump prices concurrently with transport fares?

 

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, we are not thinking along those lines. What I can state is that, first of all, there is constant interrogation of the adjustment model to determine its continued efficaciousness or whether it is working or not. It would bring a lot of confusion if we were to tie that model to the announcement of fuel pump price adjustments. Such a situation would arise if there were no consultations at all. However, there is a process of consultation with various stakeholders. We must build consensus. Only then are the stakeholders able to bring to my attention the proposition of adjustments in bus fares. Upon my approval, yes, indeed, the announcement can be made.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

 

The last person to ask a question is the hon. Member for Chama South.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, clearly, here we are seeking a reduction in bus fares. However, we are not considering all the factors that lead to such a reduction. We are only discussing fuel. What is the cost of servicing a bus or taxi, such as payment for identity? How much does it cost to replace a bus tyre? How much do these bus owners pay in terms of road tax and other requirements? Taking into account all the factors, is it possible, really, to explain to the citizens so that they understand? Is it possible to have a review of fuel prices while they are also reducing the fares? Is that attainable?

 

Madam Speaker, I know that there are other costs. Otherwise, everyone will withdraw their buses, and there will be no movement for our citizens. Is the hon. Minister in a position to explain other costs associated with running buses?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

 

The Ministerial Statement was also specific on the bus fares adjustment in view of the fuel price reductions.

 

Mr Tayali: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member who has clearly put some perspective to what I have been talking about. I am sure he will agree with me that this is what I have been explaining, that as a matter of fact, the reason we bring out all the other factors that are attendant to sustainably operating buses is that there are quite many. This is why we bring on board the most affected bus and taxi operators themselves. They have all these statistics about what they need to do to sustainably continue to offer this very crucial service, which must allow the economic wheels of our country to continue to turn by moving our people from one place to another as they go about their day to day business activities.

 

 Therefore, Madam, Speaker, we will not be able to bring all those aspects in this House and interrogate them. Those that may be in doubt, may perhaps go a step further by going to the association and speak to the members and find out if they are operating under some duress that they are actually not able to sustainably offer these services. The reason they continue to offer this service and the reason they continue to bring in more buses is for the Zambia's public transport sector to continue to be vibrant because there is something that we are doing right.

   

Madam Speaker, with those obvious remarks, I would like to thank you more sincerely.

 

Madam Speaker: Thank you so much. We make progress.

 

______

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

DELAYED FUNDS BUDGETED FOR REHABILITATION

 

369. Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

 

1. why the Government has delayed to release funds, which were budgeted for the rehabilitation of the following crossing points in Chembe Parliamentary Constituency; 

 

1. Mwami;

 

1. Pandwe;

 

1. Kalasa-Kando; and

 

1. Senkwe; 

 

1. when the Government will release the funds; and

 

1. whether the Government is aware that residents of Chembe Parliamentary Constituency have been cut off from accessing social amenities, such as schools, health facilities, as well as markets to sell their agricultural products during this marketing season due to the break-down of the said crossing points. 

 

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, the council picked four bridges to be worked on using Constituency Development Fund (CDF) funds. The CDF was released to the various local authorities in January and April, 2025 to facilitate various projects. However, later, it was changed that the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development was to fund the works using a budget line under the head of expenditure. The Treasury is still trying to look for the resources to fund the gaps.

 

Madam Speaker, in the second quarter of 2025, specifically June, the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development requested for funds amounting to K100 million for crossing points and feeder and urban roads. However, due to fiscal constraints, coupled with a huge debt of applications which the Treasury had to honour, it was not feasible to release the requested funds during that period. In the meantime, I urge the hon. Member for Chembe to utilise the CDF to undertake emergency works to meet the urgent local needs. The Government is aware that the damage to the road infrastructure in crossing points affects access to social services and amenities, including the case in Chembe.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr C. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the response.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that the crossing points are on the road which was contracted, but the contract was terminated. The hon. Minister is again telling us that the crossing points cannot be worked on immediately when he is able to see the frustration of our people. Is the hon. Minister trying to treat the people of Chembe to be of a lesser God?

 

Dr Musokotwane: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, the answer is no. The Government is trying everything possible to find money to fix the crossing points, of course, through the budget line of the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. So, I urge the hon. Member to remain in contact with the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. Please, be in contact with it and also with my office, and let us see what we can do.

 

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr C. Mpundu: I want to put it on record, Madam Speaker, that the crossing point does not need colossal sums of money. There are small tributaries that run into the Luapula River. We need less than K10 million. That is the money that we are looking for. So, is the hon. Minister able to do something about that? We have fixed about seven crossing points using the CDF. The Central Government said that it would work on the remaining seven crossing points. I know the hon.  Minister is definitely able to do something within the shortest period because we are about to enter the rainy season. We are only remaining with two months.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is no question.

 

I do not know whether the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning would want to comment.

 

Dr Musokotwane indicated dissent.

 

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, most of the people in rural areas are facing many challenges because of the kind of terrain they have, unlike our colleagues in urban areas. The people in rural areas depend on agriculture for their livelihood. Now, if their crossing points or bridges are not fixed on time, I do not know how they are going to survive. Now, the question to the hon. Minister is: Does the Government not have a Sinking Fund account? I would like the nation to understand. Maybe, it is me who does not know about that account. I remember that in the past, there used to be some kind of Sinking Fund to be used in case of such emergencies.

 

Eng. Milupi and Mr Mwiimbu, SC. laughed.

 

Rev. Katuta: I have seen the two hon. Ministers, Hon. Eng. Milupi and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, laughing. What I am asking is –

 

Interruptions

 

Rev. Katuta: I do not know why they are laughing at me. I want the hon. Minister to educate me.

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, the fact that you do not know why they are laughing, just continue with your question.

 

Rev. Katuta: They are whispering, Madam Speaker. I can hear them.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chienge, continue with your question. Just conclude your question.

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to help the nation understand. I know that it seems no money can be released tomorrow so that the crossing points are worked on in Chembe. Does the Government not have an account where it can get money to use in such situations?

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chembe for that question. I suppose the two who were laughing – Anyway, that was not part of the question.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I really sympathise with colleagues in Chembe. However, as somebody said yesterday, the needs across the country are huge, but right now, things are tight. I advise the hon. Member to keep in touch with the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development and this office so that we can see what we can do. Those challenges are not unique to Chembe. Most of the hon. Members seated here, including myself, face similar challenges. If we had all the money at one goal, of course, we would solve the problems right there and then, but that is not the situation. Nevertheless, I think that I have provided advice on the next course of action. Please, adhere to that. That is what we can do.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the answer. I want to begin by stating that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has a listening ear. I had a similar challenge in my constituency. I effectively engaged him together with his counterpart at the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, and the crossing point that was a perennial problem in my constituency has since been worked on.

 

Madam Speaker, it is gratifying to hear the hon. Minister giving hope to the hon. Member for Chembe, that the ministry is doing something about the problem. That is what the hon. Minister has said. Bearing in mind that the people of Chembe Parliamentary Constituency have been cut off from quite a number of social amenities, such as health, schools and markets, what is the Government going to do to help the hon. Member for Chembe so that the people are able to crisscross to and from either side to access many important places, such as schools, health facilities and markets? Knowing that tamwafilyapo ba hon. Minister, what are you going to do?

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Roan for that question. I think my answer remains the same. Let us talk.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

______

 

MOTIONS

 

REPORT OF THE PLANNING AND BUDGETING COMMITTEE ON THE CONSIDERATION OF THE 2025 ANNUAL BORROWING PLAN AMENDMENT

 

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Planning and Budgeting Committee on the consideration of the 2025 Annual Borrowing Plan Amendment for the Fourth Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House, on Tuesday, 1^st July, 2025.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

 

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, in line with Section 9 of the Public Debt Management Act of 2022 and Standing Order No. 206 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2024, the amendment of the 2025 Annual Borrowing Plan was referred to your Committee for consideration. The amendment arises from the increased financing needs following the presentation of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1, of 2025.

 

Madam Speaker, the amended plan seeks to raise an additional K14.8 billion in domestic financing, increasing the total net domestic borrowing ceiling for 2025 from K15.4 billion to K30.2 billion. Of this amount, K10.8 billion is earmarked for the settlement of fuel arrears while K4 billion is directed towards general Budget support, including expenditure on key social programmes, such as the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) and the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP).

 

Madam Speaker, the Committee interacted with various stakeholders, including the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, Civil Society Organisations, and professional bodies. While there was general support for the amendment, stakeholders raised several concerns. These include the risks of crowding out private sector investment due to excessive domestic borrowing, exposure to exchange rate volatility, lack of detailed cost justifications, and partial compliance with legal provisions under the Public Debt Management Act, 2022.

 

Madam Speaker, with specific reference to partial compliance with the legal provisions to include the overall net change in public debt, as required under Section 8(3)(g) of the Public Debt Management Act, 2022, the Committee recommends that future revisions to the Annual Borrowing Plan remain within prudent fiscal limits and be accompanied by clear strategies for risk mitigation and accountability. The Committee further urges the Government to enhance transparency and oversight by providing timely information to the National Assembly. Further, the Government should ensure that the fiscal and monetary policies are properly aligned to safeguard macroeconomic stability. In supporting the amended plan, the Committee remains mindful of the need to balance immediate financing needs with long-term fiscal sustainability.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I want to place on record the Committee’s appreciation of the support and advice rendered by your Office and that of the Acting Clerk of the National Assembly. I further wish to thank all stakeholders who contributed to the work of the Committee, including the hon. Members of the Committee themselves. I urge all hon. Members of this House to join the Committee in supporting this Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

 

Mr Mulebwa: Now, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to congratulate the United Party for National Development (UPND) for scooping the Lumezi Constituency parliamentary seat. I also wish to congratulate and welcome our brother who has joined us in this honourable House.

 

Madam Speaker, I rise to second the Motion on the consideration of the 2025 Annual Borrowing Plan Amendment ably moved by the chairperson of your Committee. I commend the Committee for its diligent scrutiny of the proposed amendment and the valuable insights gathered through stakeholder engagements.

 

Madam Speaker, the increased financing requirements reflected in this plan underscore the fiscal pressure the country is facing, including the need to clear longstanding fuel arrears and support underfunded priority programmes. However, I wish to echo the Committee’s concern regarding the growing reliance on domestic borrowing. The revised borrowing ceiling now stands at K30.2 billion, which is significantly above the initial projection and this, consequently, raises the domestic borrowing to Gross Domestic Product (GDP) ratio to 3.6 per cent, nearly double the approved target. This trajectory, if not addressed with a robust consolidation plan, poses a great risk of undermining fiscal discipline and private sector growth. I wish to remind the Government that all borrowing decisions must be grounded in strong legal compliance supported by transparent information, and subjected to regular performance and expenditure audits. We must ensure that debt is contracted on favourable terms and that funds are used efficiently to deliver services to our people.

 

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I wish to join the mover of the Motion in urging this august House to support the adoption of the Committee’s report and recommendations contained therein. We must collectively ensure that Zambia’s public debt trajectory is managed prudently, transparently and in the best interest of the nation.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, thank you, sincerely, for the opportunity.

 

Madam Speaker, yesterday, I noted that you spoke about me raising my voice. I want to speak in a calm voice today, and also noting that you have talked about decorum.

 

Madam Speaker, this conversation we are having today on the borrowing plan is more of a continuation from the conversation we had yesterday regarding the Supplementary Budget. Now, for the public who follow this conversation, yesterday, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning came to this august House to suggest that we present a Supplementary Budget to the 2025 National Budget. Part of what is supposed to finance the Supplementary Budget is borrowed funds. So, because the law dictates that for the Government to engage in any form of borrowing, this Parliament must approve that borrowing and, today, we are discussing that intention. I want us to per attention to these details.

 

Madam Speaker, when we passed the 2025 National Budget, the hon. Minister provided the Annual Borrowing Plan to finance that Budget. According to plan, we were supposed to borrow K15.5 billion. Now, because the hon. Minister is proposing that we supplement the 2025 National Budget, he is further suggesting that we, again, borrow K14.8 billion. K14.8 billion plus K15.4 billion gives us K30.6 billion. So, the hon. Minister is suggesting that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is going to borrow K30.6 billion for the 2025 National Budget. K30.6 billion translates to US$1.27 billion. In one fiscal year, Hon. Dr Musokotwane has asked that we borrow US$1.2 billion. Interestingly, the UPND has always sung about being prudent to the point of borrowing concessionally. Concessional borrowing means that one borrows at cheaper interest rates. In this intention on the Floor, the hon. Minister, is going commercial, and borrowing at 13.5 per cent, which is a commercial interest term.

 

Madam Speaker, yesterday, you castigated me to a point that I was humbled into withdrawing my statement when I spoke about commissions. In this borrowing plan –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Nkana, if a ruling was made over that matter, there is no need to bring it back as a continuation. Just continue with the debate.

 

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, it will interest you to note that every time the hon. Minister borrows, particularly in this borrowing plan –

 

 First of all, the House may wish to note that, as opposed to concessional borrowing, he is borrowing commercially at 13.5 per cent, and not anywhere else but locally. Secondly, the hon. Minister is providing for an arrangement fee. An arrangement fee means that whoever is going to negotiate this borrowing will walk away with a commission of not more than 1 per cent.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, it is in the report.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

Do we have evidence on that?

 

Mr B. Mpundu: Yes, Madam Speaker. This report. On page No. 2 of the borrowing plan, on table 2, there is an arrangement fee of not more than 1 per cent. So, it begs the question: Who gets this arrangement fee? An arrangement fee simply means a commission, umuzela.

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, an arrangement fee is a commission you give to anybody who arranges this borrowing.

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: No!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, what are we murmuring about?

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Nkana, you have to be sure of the things you are bringing up in your debate. I am going to allow the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to raise his point of order.

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 71. The hon. Member is alleging and imputing wrongdoing on the part of the hon. Minister. We are all aware that it is not allowed under the Standing Order to make imputations on another hon. Member or hon. Minister, but that is exactly what he is doing. Further, the information he is giving is wrong. Whenever an individual, an institution or a company borrows from a bank, there is always an arrangement fee. Those of us who have borrowed before know that there is an arrangement fee that is charged by the bank itself.

 

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to cast aspersions and mislead this House pertaining to the way he is debating?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Nkana, you were guided yesterday on the same matter of giving statements without providing evidence. You should understand that the whole country is listening and you are talking about the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning getting a commission. Really, that is too deep. If you do not understand the term ‘arrangement fee’, it is better to ask the hon. Minister, rather than accusing him of getting a commission. We ruled on that matter yesterday. So, let us not open a Pandora’s Box again. I will not allow that. Otherwise, I will just name you because it is like there is just something that you have against the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Bring evidence if what you are saying is true. Your words are going too far, actually. The whole country is listening to you saying that the hon. Minister gets a commission. You are denting his image. Can you be serious and factual. Otherwise, I may have to even curtail your debate.  With that guidance given, can you go to another issue.

 

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to stress that for the 2025 National Budget, the hon. Minister is going to borrow US$1.2 billion. For this particular Supplementary Budget, according to the borrowing plan that he has brought to the House today, the hon. Minister is going to borrow K14.8 billion. He will borrow that money locally at 13.5 per cent commercial interest rate. Of course, that arrangement will come with not more than a 1 per cent arrangement fee. The implication of those moves – First of all, those are short-term fixes that the hon. Minister is attempting to do; continuing to borrow. In the past, there were statements that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government would not go as far as other Governments did in terms of commercial loans as well as over borrowing. If we are going to borrow US$1.2 billion in a year, I do not see a departure from the norm. What the UPND Government used to castigate the previous Government for doing, which is continuing to borrow, is exactly the route that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has taken. US$1.2 billion is a lot of money.

 

Madam Speaker, I keep on lamenting the fact that this is a country that is blessed with opportunities, and we should have been leveraging our natural wealth to explore those opportunities. The reason people keep on borrowing is because they have no fall back plans. Clearly, from what he is proposing, the hon. Minister is stating that we have no fall back plan. What begs an answer is what our natural resources are for.

 

Madam Speaker, yesterday, I belaboured the same point. When we are endowed with minerals resources in places like Mfumbwe, Kanyelele and Mumbwa, where huge deposits of gold have been discovered, why should the hon. Minister be fixated on continuing to borrow to sustain our social programmes? Is it an indication that we are prioritising personal interest? Is it to show that we would rather enrich foreign entities? If we cannot harness our own natural resources that are being discovered, we are allowing looting and reckless management of those resources. Therefore, what does that say about a Government that proclaimed to be prudent in managing public resources?

 

Madam Speaker, this is the time for the hon. Minister to rethink his approach. The old way of governance with continued borrowing cannot be the norm.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, your time is up.

 

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank you for the opportunity to debate the report of your Committee, which speaks to the Annual Borrowing Plan.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning draws his powers from Section 7 of the Public Debt Management Act of 2022, which this House passed. The hon. Members who have debated before me are aware that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning draws his powers from that piece of legislation because we comprehensively scrutinised it and that is why it exists. Therefore, this particular activity that we are carrying out on the Floor of the House now is actually provided for by the law, and it is expected to happen. It should not be debated as if it is a surprise that the Annual Borrowing Plan is being revisited. It is provided for by the law and that is why I had to cite that piece of legislation. Therefore, as we debate, we must be clinical and refer to things as they are.

 

Madam Speaker, indeed, yesterday, we passed the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2025. That is another exercise for which the hon. Minister is entitled to come back to the House, depending on the situation. Even in a home, there is no budget that cannot be adjusted because situations change.

 

Madam Speaker, in the recent past, we had a big debt mountain, especially for domestic debt related to fuel arrears. That was a legacy debt, but it needed to be taken care of. It was a debt that we inherited from the previous regime because of the recklessness of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. We are where we are trying to correct the situation, but if you listen to how our hon. Colleagues debate, it is as if we do not know what we are doing. We know what we are doing and we will explain to the public exactly what is going on.

 

Madam Speaker, since we passed the Supplementary Estimates yesterday, that needs to be complemented by the resource envelope and that is what we are looking at now. When we adjust expenditure, we also need to adjust where the money will come from. What we are doing now is analysing where the money will come from. The hon. Minister has been magnanimous enough to check what is contained in your Committee’s report. That is different from the pronouncements that were made in past years, whereby our friends would just make decrees and contract things like the Eurobonds. We are saying that we are going to borrow domestically. Domestic borrowing has advantages because it is done within our economy. There are financial instruments that are used, which the hon. Member who has just completed debating may not be aware of. Financial intermediaries such as banks usually administer financial instruments. When financial intermediaries are involved, there are arrangement fees. Therefore, let us not talk about the arrangement fees because we do not understand how financial instruments are traded on the market. That kind of ignorance should not be encouraged.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, coming to the real issue, fuel arrears were at K10.8 billion and need to be liquidated from this Budget. In addition to that, we have also appropriated about K4 billion for operations. The report of your Committee cites the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) programme and it also talks about the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP).

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Members on your left are the same ones who come on the Floor of this House to complain about how the FISP has been underfunded and why we should include more players and beneficiaries on it. We are methodically implementing this year's budget to ensure that we provide all social services whilst adjusting the economy the way it is supposed to be done. So, when you look at the borrowing, …

 

Mr B. Mpundu: You are shameless!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

Hon. Member for Nkana, we have just been talking about the need to observe the decorum and the etiquette of the House, and how hon. Members should not debate while seated, but you have continued doing so.

 

Mr B. Mpundu: I rose on a point of order, but you did not give me a chance.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: That is not the reason you should debate while seated. There are rules in this House.

 

Mr B. Mpundu interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There are rules in this House, hon. Member for Nkana. Apparently, this House does not belong to you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: This is the people’s House. Let us observe the rules of this House.

 

Mr B. Mpundu conversed with Rev. Katuta.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I have seen that the hon. Member for Nkana is not remorseful. I am trying to guide, but he is busy chatting with the hon. Member for Chienge.

 

Hon. Government Members: Let him go out!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think, I should give you a break because your behaviour seems to be getting worse each day despite the warnings we give you and all hon. Members of Parliament about observing the decorum of the House. However, you are going against the guidance.

 

Mr B. Mpundu: She is the one who was talking to me.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You are even answering back at the Presiding Officer. I think, I have been so patient with you. Some Zambians are also tired witnessing the unruly and disorderly behaviour in the House. My hands are tied.

 

The hon. Member for Nkana, Mr B. Mpundu, I find your behaviour grossly disorderly and sending you away from today's sitting is insufficient punishment. I, therefore, in accordance with Standing Order No. 221, name you.

 

I suspend business for fifteen minutes.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Business was suspended from 1414 hours until 1629 hours.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Question that Mr B. Mpundu be suspended from the service of the House for a period of seven Sitting days, from 4^th July, 2025, up to 17^th July, 2025, inclusive, put and agreed to.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We are supposed to have twelve members standing for a division to occur, but we have only ten. Therefore, the question is resolved in the affirmative.

 

 Mr B. Mpundu, in accordance with the decision of this House, you have been suspended from the service of the Assembly for a period of seven sitting days. Before I order you to leave the Chamber, I wish to inform you that in accordance with Section 28(3) of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act, Chapter 12 of the Laws of Zambia and Standing Order No. 222(2), during the period of your suspension, you shall not enter the precincts of the Assembly, and this extends to the National Assembly Members' Motel, or participate in any business or activity of the Assembly, or a Committee of the Assembly in your capacity as a Member of Parliament, and lastly, be paid the salary or allowance that you are entitled to as a Member.

 

I now order you, Mr B. Mpundu, to leave the Chamber through the main entrance for seven days, with effect from tomorrow, 4^th July to 17^th July, 2025.

 

I thank you.

 

Mr B. Mpundu left the Assembly Chamber.

 

_______

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We make progress.

 

The hon. Member for Zambezi East was debating; he may continue.

 

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, before I was interrupted, I was about to wind up my debate. In doing so, I am just going to recap what I said earlier concerning the Annual Borrowing Plan revision. I said that it stems from the authority given by the law in Section 7 of the Public Debt Management Act, 2022, from which the hon. Minister drew his power to bring the Annual Borrowing Plan for approval by this Parliament.

 

Madam Speaker, indeed, when I look at what he wants to borrow for, I see that it is for very pertinent issues that we need to address, that add value to the economy. One of the reasons for borrowing is taking care of fuel arrears. In any case, I was just about to extend my debate towards how this matter came about and how methodical we are in approaching it.

 

In 2024, we came up with the liability management operation. We have been engaged in detailed negotiations and the negotiations have given birth to the present status, which we are clear of. We are revising the Budget in order for expenditure to fit within the programme. So, before people debate, they need to revisit what we agreed on and the reason such measures are being undertaken. Therefore, there is nothing sinister about revising the Annual Borrowing Plan to provide for the extra amount required in the Budget, because it is going to cover something cardinal.

 

Madam Speaker, we are now very clear about our debt. For sure, domestic debt is the best way to go because the money stays within the economy. If anything, even those who will participate in this will also make a profit out of it, which profit adds to the gross domestic product (GDP). So, we need to look at this issue that way. We should make a comparison of domestic debt with the Euro bonds that the people in the previous regime borrowed for consumption. In this case, we are actually looking at domestic borrowing. In any case, most of the instruments that have been issued by the Government have been over-subscribed, which shows that they are actually doing very well.

 

Madam Speaker, I wish to submit these contributions, and I urge hon. Colleagues on your left-hand side to research a little more so that they can understand the purpose of what we are doing.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.  

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We have two more Members to debate, that is, the hon. Member for Kalomo Central and the hon. Member for Chienge.

 

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, I am an academician and when wrong things are said, I get very concerned.  This is a respected House where there must be proper interpretation of issues. We have the Research Department here. If hon. Members are not clear on certain things, they should make use of the department. We also have the Budget Department here that can also guide hon. Members to understand what is being said in this House.

 

Madam Speaker, there is nothing wrong with borrowing. Even the richest nation, the United States of America (USA), borrows. What is important is that, as we borrow, we need to be transparent and know exactly what we want to use the money for. We should not borrow for the sake of borrowing. However, the people in the previous Government would borrow while staying in a hotel, and they would never bring the reasons for their borrowing to Parliament. This Government is very transparent. Every debt is brought here so that the country can know about it.

 

Madam Speaker, the money we are talking about is going to be used to clear fuel arrears but the question is: Who left the fuel arrears?  It is the previous Government. The same people who contracted the debt we are trying to clear are now saying that we cannot do it.  Why are we now borrowing domestically to clear the arrears? The interest for the arrears is very high. If we clear those arrears slowly, we will end up paying more than what we are borrowing because of the high interest rate.  The interest we are being charged now on domestic borrowing is far less than the arrears that the previous Government failed to pay.

 

Madam Speaker, the same previous Government overborrowed and failed to pay even the first instalment. It defaulted the first installment. The Government is clearing the same debts that the previous Government left. It cannot even appreciate. All we get from its members are wrong things. Now, its members are asking where the Government is taking the money.  How about the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway project? Who is constructing that road? The same people who use that road, all they bring are insults. The same people who come here to say things that are not correct, have roads like the Chibuluma Road, that was built by the Government. I wish that road was in my constituency because I would have said, “thank you” and celebrated.

 

Madam Speaker, the mentality that everything must come from outside the country must end. We must learn to plan within the country. When we borrow domestically, we empower people in our own country. We give business to our banks so that they can grow and employ more people, unlike when we borrow outside the country, as the interest on the debt will enrich the people there. By borrowing domestically, we are leaving the money within the country. So, in the end, the economy grows. So, people must change. When we borrowed from the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) for the same Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway, when a company that is building the same road borrowed within Zambia, somebody refused to say we borrow from Zambia, not from outside. That kind of thinking is what led this country to where it is now. We must change.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government has brought mathematics in the management of the country's resources. So, if one cannot see the mathematics, maybe, one still needs to go to night school.

 

 Madam Speaker, when you borrow a loan, there is a handling fee, which can also be called an arrangement fee. Anyone who has an account knows that. So, how can one say that the arrangement fee –  

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

 

_______

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was debating a point on borrowing.

 

Madam Speaker, when one wants to buy a fritter or scone, one can just wake up and buy it. When one wants to buy a car, the process is different as when one wants to buy an aeroplane. When one wants to invest in minerals, one does not just wake up one day, and start digging for minerals and selling them. This Government has done well in that area. The hon. Member said that we have gold and other minerals that we have not started mining. So, we are not planning properly. No. It is this same Government that has increased copper production, which has led to the Kwacha gaining and being the best-performing currency in the world at the moment. That takes time. When we talked about free education, people said that it was not possible. Now, they have stopped talking about it. There is free education. We told them that we wanted to invest in maize production so that the prices could naturally reduce. Now, the price of mealie meal is reducing; they are no longer asking about it. They were also talking about fuel. All these investments, which are well planned, are bringing the results. We have mineral deposits that are being discovered. We have identified them. They need proper planning and investment. One cannot just wake up and say that because one has gold, one should dig it up and then sell it the following day. No. Everything is in process.

 

Madam Speaker, if the Patriotic Front (PF) was still in Government, copper production would have been reduced lower than what it was when it left. From the time the PF came into power, copper production decreased. Now, it is increasing, and the Kwacha has gained.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: Mealie meal prices have reduced.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: Fuel prices are lower.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: Say something about that.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: Mealie meal prices have gone down, kwenyu!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: The production of mealie meal has gone up, kwenyu!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Kwenyu!

 

Mr Kamboni: Fuel prices have gone down, kwenyu!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Kwenyu!

 

Mr Kamboni: The Kwacha has gained, kwenyu!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: By kwenyu, I mean, correct.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Correct!

 

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, that is what happens. Even when one is investing, first one spends, and after spending, that is when one gets the results.

 

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

Mr Kamboni: One has to break even. One cannot make profits immediately.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kalomo Central!

 

There is an indication for a point of order.

 

Hon. Member for Chinsali, what is your point of order?

 

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity you have given me to rise on a point of order. I think, you have noticed that I rarely rise on points of order.

 

Madam Speaker, I am following the debate that my elder brother, the hon. Member on the Floor, who is an eloquent debater, is putting across. While the things he is talking about may be true, our Standing Orders guide that when an hon. Member is debating, he or she must be relevant. The report on the Floor is on the borrowing plan. Now, the issues that the hon. Member is talking about do not relate to what we are discussing.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, is he in order to talk about issues that are not relevant to the report that is on the Floor of the House?

 

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Kalomo Central has his views. I was following his debate well and attentively. He talked about borrowing and the effects that it has generated. The hon. Member for Kalomo Central was simply putting across his facts and views. Those are his views. If he is not correct, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will respond. Each one of us, in this House, has their views, so long as the views are in line with the report on the Floor of the House. So, the hon. Member was not out of order.

 

Hon. Member for Kalomo Central, wind up your debate.

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, my good honourable friend may not have been in the House, but the question that was asked was why would the Government borrow when it can use the gold that it has not yet started mining.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

 

Mr Kamboni: So, I was explaining that it is a process.

 

Madam Speaker, we have invested and opened many mines, and copper production is high, which has led to the Kwacha gaining value and fuel prices reducing. The price of mealie meal has also reduced after investing, and that is because of good policies. So, I was trying to justify the fact that it is necessary for us to borrow. I do not understand why some people should be confused in this House. How the money that is borrowed is going to be used is clearly stated. A Committee was set up, people were called, and they all approved. All the witnesses, who are stakeholders in the economy, said that this is all right. That is what I was trying to explain. I think, borrowing K14 billion is all right. The mathematics of this Government is good.

 

Mr Nkandu: Hear, hear!

 

Quality!

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, it is high time we thanked the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. He is doing a fantastic job.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Kwenyu!

 

Mr Kamboni: What are the results or the signs? Madam Speaker, it is the Kwacha gaining value, mealie meal prices reducing, copper production increasing and fuel prices also reducing. All these are signs that the ministry is doing a good job, and it is the right time to say job well done to the hon. Minister. I thank him very much.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: So, we remain with what? Kwenyu!

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Chienge, to add my voice to the debate on this important Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, my debate will be in form of questions, which I expect the Executive to respond to when I am done. I understand why the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is borrowing.

 

Before I continue, Madam Speaker, I would like to say that we are a democratic country where Back Benchers are allowed to question the actions taken by the Government. We should not be like some Parliaments I know of in East Africa where no one can question why the Government is doing this or that for fear of going to jail. Allow me to debate with a clear conscious whether I go to jail or not.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

 

Question!

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, the question that –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chienge, I think, there is no need for you to mention going to jail. I do not think Parliament has taken anyone to jail after debating. So, just focus on the report and debate freely without the fear of going to jail.

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, thank you for the guidance. I know what I am talking about.

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to find out if it is prudent to borrow in order to settle a debt. This Government stated there was no room for borrowing. I would also like to find out why it is borrowing. As I mentioned earlier, I know exactly why the Government is borrowing according to the report.

 

Madam Speaker, we are 20 million Zambians. The 156 of us cannot afford to borrow without making somebody in Chienge understand why the Government is borrowing to settle debts for fuel. The question I have is: Did this Government not foresee that this would come? These are eventualities that it should have planned for and put in the Budget. We cannot be borrowing and borrowing. We are borrowing US$1.2 billion in one fiscal year. I find that to be wrong. Should this Government leave office, the Government that will come in will have problems. We are where we are because of borrowing by the PF Government. The question is: Who is going to repay the money that the Government is borrowing now? Last week, I asked the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning how he can make Zambians understand that our economy is doing well. His response was that people are getting employed in the mines. When I asked again why our economy is not doing well, I was told that new mines have opened.

 

Madam Speaker, if you go to Mtendere or Chienge, you will see how Zambians are suffering. My hon. Colleague who has just debated said that the price of mealie meal has gone down, but is it at K50? Today, if you buy electricity units for K1,500, you will get about 500 units, which never used to happen before. In the past, if you bought electricity units for K1,500, you would have more than 1,000 units. The questions I have are: Why are we still borrowing? Who has given the Government the right to borrow because ordinary Zambians are shareholders of this nation?

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, the Government cannot borrow without telling the main shareholders. We are here to add to the Budget.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I do not want to be disturbed.

 

Interruptions 

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

 

Rev. Katuta: Guys, tubeko serious. Lekeni ndelanda, please. Cilishani?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members, can we give her room to debate. We are running behind time. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will be given time to respond. So, whatever issues she brings out, the hon. Minister will come and respond. We are behind time and we have to deal with the Committee of Supply for the Supplementary Budget.

 

Hon. Member for Chienge, you may continue.

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, as a Backbencher, I need to hold the Executive accountable. I am here to ask questions, not to be told by those on your right hand that I should not question. I have made it clear that I am here to question the Executive and, therefore, my debate is in form of questions.

 

Madam Speaker, has the mealie meal price gone down to K50? Have the electricity tariffs gone down? These are the questions I want answers to. We are still borrowing, yet we were told that there was a ceiling for borrowing and we could not borrow anymore. Who will pay back the debt we are accruing now? It is our children. Most of the hon. Members in this House will not even be alive when the time to pay back the debt comes. So, that is the reason I am asking those questions.

 

Madam Speaker, Zambians deserve to understand why the Government is borrowing and how the debt will be paid back. Is the private sector not disadvantaged when the Government borrows from commercial banks at 13 per cent, as written in the report? What will happen to the private sector?

 

Madam Speaker, I am not a technical person, but I am looking at what is on the ground.  Documents can tell me one thing, yet the reality on the ground is totally different. That is why I am asking the Executive questions. All that I am asking for are answers. It would be nice or a good idea for the Government to explain the situation to the Zambian people in vernacular so that they can understand why the Government is borrowing. Is it to settle the old debt or what? We are here debating, yet the debts affect every Zambian, not only the hon. Members of Parliament who are here speaking in English or the policy makers. That is the reason I am questioning and I want answers. Why is the Government not informing the nation that it wants to borrow? It is very important to inform every Zambian because we will all pay for the debt. It is not only the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government that will pay the debt, but every Zambian.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is going to borrow money to settle the fuel arrears, right? Once again, we want to hear answers to those questions so that people may know that it is prudent to borrow to settle what we owe.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, just for your information, the official language used in the House is English. The people chose you to come to this House and represent them. So, it is your duty and you have the mandate to do the work we are doing here in English. That is just an addition.

 

Seeing that we are behind time, I will allow the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to debate.

 

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Madam Speaker, I would like to state that I support the proposal by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning pertaining to the matter under consideration. I will try to respond to some of the issues that have been raised, not on behalf of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, but on behalf of the Government.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana lamented and blamed this Government that it is not doing anything whatsoever to provide funds and ensure that we benefit from the mineral endowment that we have in this country. I would like to state that from the time of our Independence to date, the United Party for National Development (UPND) is the only Government that has commissioned a nationwide exploration exercise to determine the minerals that we have in this country.

 

Mr B. Mpundu: Question!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, it has only been done by this Government and the results will be showing very soon.

 

Madam Speaker, we are the first Government since Independence that has decided to create the Minerals Regulation Commission to ensure that Zambians benefit from our mineral endowment. We are the only ones since Independence. We are the only Government that has passed a law to ensure that Zambian companies and individuals benefit from foreign investments in this country. We are the only ones.

 

Mr Syakalima: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, we are the only Government that has decided to ensure that Zambians are given artisanal licenses for large-scale projects.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, why are we doing that? It is because we are trying to prop up our citizens so that they can be empowered. When Zambian citizens are empowered, the money remains in this country.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, when Zambian companies are empowered and make money through their businesses, the Government will be able to collect taxes. Once we collect taxes, we will be able to provide social services to the people of this country. We are a Government that does not believe in sharing poverty because one cannot share poverty. As such, we are empowering Zambians so that they can have wealth. That is what we are doing.

 

Madam Speaker, we have heard about the mining issues in Mufumbwe, Chongwe and Mpika. It has been stated that people are not benefiting from mining activities in those areas. My colleague, the hon. Minister of Defence, is here. Together, we are doing everything possible to prevent illegal miners from gaining access to those areas. The Government has further given a directive that Zambians must start mining legally by getting artisanal licenses. We have been challenged even us here because we have the right to get licences. That is what a responsible Government can do.

 

Madam Speaker, we have heard from the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge that we should not be debating here and that we should not be acquiring debt because the people of Zambia have not been consulted. She has forgotten that we are in representative democracy. That is why we are here representing the twenty million Zambians.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: That is why we are here. If other people do not know why they are here, we forgive them just like Jesus did.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.:  He forgave those who did not know what they were doing.

 

Madam Speaker, this Government is proposing the investment it is making in order to ensure that it pays back the debt. Once we pay back the debt, there will be money in the economy. Some of the fuel suppliers are local businessmen and women. Our hon. Colleagues have been urging us to ensure that there is money in the economy, and that is what we are doing.

 

Madam Speaker, I have been advised by my hon. Colleague, the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, wherein he has likened the Opposition to a spoiled spouse. The spouse goes out, borrows money extravagantly, but he is not able to pay it back. When the other spouse pays, it becomes an issue and tells the spouse that I will divorce you because you are paying the debt which I had acquired.  That is how spoiled the PF members are. If they had not borrowed, we would not have been …

 

Hon. UPND Members: There is no PF.

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: I hear there is no PF.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, if it were not for the debt, which they had incurred in this country, we would not have been in the situation that we are in. Our colleagues had defaulted on repaying the debt, and as a result of the default, they were not able to marshal resources to provide for our people. However, because we are a responsible Government, we have decided to pay back the loans they got irresponsibly. That is what we are doing.

 

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, you may be aware that some of the debts that our colleagues incurred were not utilised prudently. That is the fact.

 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

 

I will allow the last point of order because, like I had mentioned, we have a lot of work.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, it is a procedural point of order.

 

Madam Speaker, first of all, I want to say, nkongole ni nkongole, which means borrowing is borrowing. It does not matter who borrows and how the borrowing is done. 

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, hon. Ministers have portfolio functions. The standard practice in this august House is that the mover of the Motion is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Now, we are developing some unprocedural arrangement where an hon. Minister responsible for other portfolio functions starts responding on behalf of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we need to guide one another because it is very important. If we are saying the decorum of the House and conduct of business must be orderly, it must be orderly on both sides. This Motion is for the hon. Minister responsible for Finance and National Planning, and he should therefore, be the one to respond. Hon. Cabinet Ministers should not take the space for the hon. Backbenchers to debate the Motions and start debating on behalf of their hon. Colleagues. It is procedural. We need to set the right standards.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kampyongo: We have been here longer than they have been and they should learn when we are coaching them.

 

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you are now debating and you did not cite the Standing Order that has been breached by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

 

If you were in the House earlier, you would recall that I had indicated that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is going to sum it all up. He is still coming to respond to all the issues. However, if there is an hon. Cabinet Minister who wants to debate, I am sure he/she has the right to do so. However, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will come before the mover of the Motion winds up debate. So, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security may continue.

 

Mr Mwiimbu S.C: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, I just want to remind my hon. Colleague who was Minister of Home Affairs that what I am doing is exactly what he used to do when he was sitting here.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.:  He used to defend the Government on the Floor of this House even if the Motion was not for the ministry responsible for home affairs. So, I am doing exactly what he used to do. I want to remind him that he used to debate very well defending the PF and I am defending the UPND Government very well. So, there is nothing wrong, as the hon. Madam Speaker has indicated.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Laughter

 

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to intervene on the Motion that has been presented.

 

Madam Speaker, to start with, I want to thank the Committee for the wonderful work it has done, the analysis that it has conducted and the conclusions made in support of the borrowing plan.

 

Madam Speaker, I would just like to say that this Government borrows responsibly. This is the Government that puts handbrakes into law to make sure that every loan that is taken up by the nation comes on the Floor of this House. This is something new because it was not there before. Therefore, we can be the last one to allow a situation in which reckless borrowing comes back.

 

Madam Speaker, let me answer some of the concerns that have been raised by hon. Colleagues from across. To start with, I want to say that I am saddened because young people, who should invest their energy and time in getting knowledge and being informed are not doing so. That is why in the past, I have always said ignorance can be very dangerous to oneself, society and to the country.

 

Madam Speaker, yesterday, we went through some of the important items that made it necessary to ask for the Supplementary Expenditure and why it has become necessary to borrow. Let me repeat: We are faced with a situation whereby, there was debt that was accumulated by our hon. Colleagues from the Patriotic Front (PF) on the fuel. That debt has been on our books. Unfortunately, it was procured carelessly because in certain cases, the interest for not servicing the debt was as high as 27 per cent. There is nowhere in the world where you borrow at 27 per cent interest in Dollars, but that is what was done, and the debt has been on our books. If we did not do anything, it would have kept growing. The big chunk of the money that we are borrowing is for paying off the existing expensive debt. I am surprised that somebody said that 13 per cent is too high, forgetting that the interest on the fuel debt they left is 27 per cent.

 

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, surely, if you borrow at 13 per cent to pay a debt at 27 per cent, that is wisdom. The debt is already on our books. It is not, as economists say, a net increase in borrowing; what is happening is that we are replacing an existing expensive debt with a cheaper debt.

 

Rev. Katuta left the Assembly Chamber.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Amutike: Decorum!

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, this is the matter; it is as simple as that. On top of that, here is something interesting I need to add. In all the years that the debt was on our books, as I said, it was growing and growing. In paying off the debt, the institutions that we owe money have been persuaded to write off a significant amount of the accumulated interest. In certain cases, the interest forgiven is as high as 70 per cent. So, if 70 per cent of accumulated interest can be written off, the amount of money that remains to be paid attracts 13 per cent instead of 27 per cent. That is what we call wisdom. Therefore, it is very sad that the young people whom we thought are educated, knowledgeable, and so forth cannot see this. It is very, very sad.

 

Mr Mubika: They are the most useless!

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I think, Hon. Mubika says …

 

Laughter

 

 Dr Musokotwane: … that this is why Situmbeko Musokotwane must not retire. The young ones are not ready.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in short, I want to say that the decision that has been made to borrow and extinguish some of the expensive loans is in the best interest of the country. That is why, if you read and listen to international media, you will notice that they are all saying, ‘Zambia, well done,’ because they can see the progress being made.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to thank you.

 

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to wind up debate on the Motion on the Floor. I can only thank the hon. Members, that is, those who have debated and those who have not debated. I also thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security for their responses.

 

Madam Speaker, I request my hon. Colleagues to support the Motion.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS ON THE REVIEW OF THE STATE OF INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE DEFENCE FORCE

 

Brig-Gen. Sitwala (Kaoma): Madam Speaker, allow me to join my hon. Colleagues in congratulating and welcoming Hon. Lufeyo Ngoma, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi.

 

Hon. Member, you are most welcome.

 

Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs on the Review of the State of Infrastructure in the Defence Force for the Fourth Session of the 13^th National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 1^st July, 2025.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Ms S. Mwamba (Kasama Central): I beg to second the Motion, Madam Speaker.

 

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: Madam Speaker, it is my firm belief that hon. Members have read the report of the Committee. Therefore, allow me to highlight only some of the salient issues that were observed during the deliberations with all the stakeholders who were invited.

 

Madam Speaker, the Committee observed that the effectiveness and the efficiency of the Defence Force is mainly dependent on good and adequate infrastructure. However, the Committee observed, with concern, that some of the infrastructure within the Defence Force dates back to the pre-independence era, some as far back as 1933, when the Northern Rhodesia Regiment, now the Zambia Army, was established.

 

Madam Speaker, as hon. Members are aware, infrastructure refers to virtual systems and physical assets that support the operations and the training of Defence Force personnel. These include military bases and barracks, command and control centres, training facilities, airfields, medical facilities, among others. The Committee observed that the state of some of the infrastructure in the Defence Force is dilapidated and requires a clear policy and legal framework if we are to achieve the nation's agenda for modernisation. We, therefore, appeal to the Government to amend the Defence Act, Chapter 106 of the Laws of Zambia, to expressly provide for infrastructure development to support the operational needs of the Defence Force. When the Committee undertook its local tour to Lusaka, the Central Province, the Copperbelt Province and Luapula Province, it observed that almost all barracks had old and dilapidated housing units. The Committee, therefore, recommends that sufficient funds be allocated in the National Budget for the construction of new housing units, office space, as well as the rehabilitation and maintenance of the old infrastructure. This goes for water and sanitation facilities. Your Committee observed that they were in a deplorable state and infested with termites. That is aside from the fact that they were recently constructed. Your Committee also noted that maintenance and renovation were a challenge as buildings were prefabricated. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government considers using brick and mortar to construct housing units and office space for military personnel countrywide for durability and quality assurance. A good example of barracks constructed using brick and mortar is the Kara Barracks, or the 48^th Marine Commando Unit Special Forces in Kawambwa. Kara Barracks is a modern standard military barracks, which your Committee recommends serves as a benchmark for all defence force infrastructure development in Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee also toured Buffalo Park Barracks in Chalala, right here in Lusaka, which is under construction, and the brick and mortar model is being used. However, your Committee learnt with dismay that the Government is still owing the contractor US$57 million for Phase 1 of the project. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government pays the contractor urgently so that the first phase of the project can be completed.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed with great concern that despite the defence force having sufficient manpower and qualified engineers to undertake construction projects to improve the state of infrastructure for the defence force, their valuable manpower has not been utilised to its full potential due to insufficient resources allocated towards maintenance and construction of new infrastructure. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government, through the Ministry of Defence, establishes a fund directly; a special contingent fund for the construction, maintenance and renovation of infrastructure for the defence force. An example we saw was when we toured one of the units under the Zambia National Service (ZNS).

 

In conclusion, Madam, your Committee wishes to express its gratitude to you and the Clerk of the National Assembly of Zambia for the support services rendered to it throughout the deliberations. Gratitude also goes to all the stakeholders who provided your Committee with both written and oral submissions. That greatly assisted the work of your Committee.

 

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

 

Ms S. Mwamba: Now, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to second this progressive Motion before this august House.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to also thank the mover of the Motion and chairperson of your Committee for the able manner in which he presided over your Committee's deliberations.

 

Madam Speaker, I will only focus on four silent issues, starting my discourse with a comment on the low budget allocation towards maintenance, renovation and construction of defence force structures. During our local tours, your Committee learned that the Zambia Defence Force continues to face many challenges, in regard to the unsatisfactory state of infrastructure, due to inadequate resources to build and maintain barracks to the required standard. Your Committee strongly recommends that the Government increases the defence force budgetary allocation to that effect. By increasing its defence infrastructure budget, Zambia is not just spending on buildings, but investing in a more secure, responsive and resilient nation while protecting the welfare of those who defend it.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee also noted with great concern that a number of military cantonments and units do not have adequate essential medical drugs to support the welfare of personnel in the units. For instance, at the Zambia National Service (ZNS) Apollo Camp, the clinic, which was designed for a population of not more than 200 people, but has a catchment of over 500 people, only has two small rooms that are used.  In addition, the camp clinic at Kalewa Garrison Barracks, which services a population of 1,299 officers and soldiers and has a catchment of more than 3,000 people, has a tiny single room used as a male ward. Your Committee noted that most clinics lack the pima analyser which, in lay terms, is a clusters of differentiation 4 (CD4) count machine, and other medical equipment and essential drugs. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government increases funding towards the purchase of medical equipment and essential drugs in military cantonments, units and barracks to support the wellbeing of service personnel and surrounding communities.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee continues to observe with great concern that water supply in most defence force barracks, military camps and cantonments is erratic and that the sewer systems are in poor condition due to old broken pipes, sewer pipes and calcium accumulation exacerbated by load management. To illustrate, the L85 Apollo Camp in Lusaka West serves a catchment area of 28,000 people, which include military personnel, their families and surrounding communities. The camp has water supply for approximately two to four hours a day. At times, the camp goes without water. Out of fifteen sunken boreholes, only five are operational. Most of the pumps that are used to pump this water are faulty. That poses great concern. This is just to mention one of the camps, but that is the prevailing situation in most.

 

Madam Speaker, I will further comment on the lack of modern training facilities. Your Committee noted the lack of modern training facilities in most of the defence force training schools. That is due to an increase in the number of recruits enrolled over the years. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government purchases modern training equipment and improve facilities to enhance operational readiness of the Zambia Defence Force.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to state that improved infrastructure will strengthen national security, improve troop welfare, save costs, through proper maintenance, and also create jobs. I, therefore, urge my fellow hon. Members to support this non-controversial Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity you have given me to add my voice to the debate on the Motion to adopt the Committee’s report.

 

Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to state that I support the Motion on the Floor of the House.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to look at some critical issues that have been raised in the report. The first thing is the legal framework that governs infrastructure in the defence force. The framework is there although it needs a bit of amendments so that it can suit the current trends of our country. The Zambia Defence Force is one of the best in Africa in terms of training and discipline. If one goes to countries that are provided with peacekeeping missions, one will see that the Zambia Defence Force is talked about. The people will tell one that the Zambia Defence Force is one of the top forces in Africa. They are well-trained and disciplined. However, there is a challenge that we have with this defence force. Allow me to be blunt because we are the only ones who can speak for these individuals. They cannot come and tell the House the challenges they go through. We appreciate the funding that was given to the Ministry of Defence. However, to be honest with you, I do not see that the funding that has been given to the Defence Force is sufficient to address some of its current challenges.

 

Madam Speaker, the report of the Committee that was presented by the chairperson talks about infrastructure that was constructed way back in the colonial days. Some of it was constructed as far back as 1939. We cannot have the best-trained and well-disciplined Defence Force, yet the state of infrastructure in which it operates is a disaster. Therefore, I call on the Executive to reconsider and see how best it can inject more funds into the Ministry of Defence for it to address some of the challenges that the Zambian Defence Force is facing. The 1,000 housing units being constructed for military personnel in Bufalo Park, Chalala will be the best solution to the accommodation challenge that the Zambian Defence Force is facing. We need to ensure that we liquidate the amount owed to the contractor working on that project. We cannot talk about motivating a soldier or having the best Defence Force when officers are struggling with issues such as accommodation.

 

Madam Speaker, we have been hearing stories of how soldiers have been fighting with civilians and some have moved out of barracks and constructed their own houses. One of our colleagues was battered and taught a lesson by the military because of the Defence Force officers mingling with civilians. I think it is high time we differentiated the residence of the Defence Force officers from that of civilians.

 

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the Lusaka West Apollo Military Camp (L85). There are soldiers who live in Lusaka West who are struggling with transport. They are unable to report for work. That is a challenge that needs to be sorted out. If we leave that situation unattended to, those military officers will continue struggling. We will end up with renegade soldiers who will fail to take instructions from their superiors. That is the reason we are calling upon the Executive to consider buying enough vehicles for the Zambian Defence Force.

 

Madam Speaker, if you went to the barracks, you would find officers exchanging batteries. Achosa– oh sorry. You find that a soldier would remove a battery from one vehicle and transfer it to another. Military officers are also exchanging what we call alternators. I think, that is not right.

 

Madam Speaker, the Zambian Defence Force is one of the best in Africa. It is well-trained and disciplined, but lacks motivation. For our soldiers under the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) and the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to receive the best motivation, the Government needs to increase funding to the Ministry of Defence.

 

Madam Speaker, procurement is another issue that needs to be addressed. Suppliers have stopped taking food to the Zambian Defence Force, leading to some soldiers going hungry. In the past, the Zambian Defence Force over-procured supplies. As a result, the army accumulated a huge debt that needs to be liquidated. How do we expect a soldier to defend the nation without eating?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kabwata, please, be cautious. Otherwise, our army will be attacked. Let us be a bit sensitive to how we are bringing out certain issues.

 

Mr Tayengwa: Thank you for your guidance, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, the other issue I want to talk about is the obsolete equipment that the Defence Force is using. We have the best engineers in the Zambian Defence Force. We have seen how some of them have managed to construct temporary bridges. However, the challenge is that they are not given the state-of-the-art equipment that they need to use. It is for that reason that I am calling upon the Government to consider funding the Zambian Defence Force adequately so that it can enhance the skills of engineers.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, let me talk about the issue –

 

 Eng. Milupi: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is an indication for a point of order.

 

Mr Kampyongo: No more points of order.

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, it is a serious point of order.

 

Mr Chisopa: It is the same rules for everybody.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, I had indicated that I would not allow any more points of order.

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, it is very serious because of the way things are going.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

 

Eng. Milupi: My point of order is with regard to the procedure of the House, Madam Speaker. We are dealing with a sensitive subject.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Okay, do you want to talk about the sensitivity of the report?

 

Eng. Milupi indicated assent.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may go ahead.

 

Mr Chisopa: Awe, namutukanya ifwe!

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the subject before the House is about the security of this nation. Those of us who have been in this House for a long period understand that in the past, subjects like this were discussed in camera because there are issues that border on the security of the nation. So, it is a question of procedure. Is this debate live? If it is, should it not be in camera because we are dealing with the security of the nation?

 

Madam Speaker, I seek your ruling.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much, hon. Minister.

 

That was the more reason I had to guide the hon. Member for Kabwata. That is a valid and important point. So, in this case, I will ask the strangers or visitors in the Gallery to leave us, and then the television and radio should be switched off as we continue.

 

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang'andu, I have been guided that the House can actually decide whether to debate in camera or not. As it has been brought out, the report is a bit sensitive so we have to be mindful and responsible as we debate. There is no way we can give the whole world such information contained in the report. Otherwise, we might attract enemies to invade our country. So, with that said, we can continue as instructed.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kabwata, did you finish? Please, wind up your debate.

 

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Speaker, I think, I will just end my debate here.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can wind up.

 

Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for this opportunity that you have given –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Kanyama, sorry, I made a mistake. The hon. Member for Kabwata had not finished debating. He is supposed to wind up his debate. You can wind up your debate, hon. Member for Kabwata.

 

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Speaker, I am grateful.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the people of Kabwata support this report.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chinkuli: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.  

 

Mr Amutike: This one also.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Chinkuli: Madam Speaker, I need your protection.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue, hon. Member.

 

Mr Chinkuli: Madam Speaker, thank you.

 

Madam Speaker, to start with, I want to thank the Committee for coming up with this report. It is very important to review some of the issues that are happening or conducted time and again because by so doing, we will look at the gaps that are there. We will be able to look at the needs and what should be done to address them.

 

Madam Speaker, looking at what the report states, there are many challenges in the operations of the Defence Forces. However, I would want the hon. Minister to respond to the employment of technocrats, and I want to thank the Government for employing a number of staff. Among them, there are some who have been employed for specific tasks. For instance, the clergy, architects, civil engineers and so on and so forth. They are all there.

 

Madam Speaker, the question is: Why are we employing them if we cannot utilise them? They are employed for a specific purpose. The answer to the question is actually in the report. It is due to the lack of adequate funding. So, if that is the case, why should we keep on employing people with skills such as doctors or technicians whose salaries are high at the expense of those who go to the battle front? So, these are some of the issues we need to look into seriously.

 

Madam Speaker, the report has actually come at the right time when it is needed. For example, we have issues in neighbouring countries and so, for the Defence Forces to work efficiently, motivation is required. There must be incentives for them such as troop’s well-being allowance. When they leave their homes, do they think about their families? If they have good housing units with water, good sanitation and the like? If those things are in place, they will be content and as such, they will focus on executing their duties well.

 

Madam Speaker, I do not want to speak much, except to say that there is a need to look at the funding to the unit. We have technocrats who can do a good job other than the ones we just hire from elsewhere and instead, give us prefabricated structures which do not even last for two or three years because they are eaten by termites. So, there are people who have been employed to carry out certain tasks to the point that if they fail us, they are led off because the system is there.

 

Madam Speaker, let us concentrate on the funding of this unit so that everything that is supposed to be put together is brought forward.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.  

 

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, from the outset and on behalf of the people of Solwezi, I want to support your report, of course, with a few areas that I need to highlight.

 

Madam Speaker, indeed, your report has brought out certain sad aspects concerning our men and women in uniform, especially with regard to their conditions of service.

 

Madam Speaker, I just want to pick one item, and this is to do with the ranks in the Defence Forces. We look at the administrative support for our men and women in uniform and ensure that motivate them. When we look at the Zambia Army and maybe, the Defence Forces in general, we see that one may hold one position in terms of rank for many years. Some even retire just with a watch; the emblem they use. Sometimes, it happens that for one to move from one rank to another, it takes so many years and it actually demotivates many of them. So, we, indeed, need to administratively support our defence people by considering the ranks. One should not stay on one rank for many years. If one is corporal, he/she will remain corporal for ten, fifteen or even twenty years. We need to motivate them by promoting them in the established hierarchies, at least within a good time, which builds motivation.

 

Madam Speaker, secondly, I want to talk about their salaries. These people spend a lot of time in training, but look at what they get. On average, the gross salary for a soldier is between K4,000 and K10,000.   

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Solwezi East, the report is specifically talking about the review of the state of infrastructure in the Defence Forces. Now, …

 

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, I have just picked one aspect which talks about administrative support. I am talking about motivating our men and women in uniform, and also looking at their salaries because that is part of the administrative support in terms of motivating them. So, a salary that ranges from K4,000 to K10,000 is demotivating.

 

Madam Speaker, what I am saying is that we need to motivate our men and women in uniform, and that is what I just wanted to talk about.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The last hon. Member to debate is hon. Member for Shiwang’andu. Let us be mindful of the time.

 

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

 Madam Speaker, this report is very important. As my hon. Colleagues have stated, a motivated Defence Force guarantees national security.

 

Madam Speaker, I will start by talking about the current law or what we call “The Protected Places and Areas Act No.125 of the Laws of Zambia.”

 

Madam Speaker, barracks and military training grounds are supposed to be protected areas where movements are restricted and controlled. However, of late, we have witnessed casualties of people straying into these protected areas because we have not secured them.

 

Madam Speaker, entry into the barracks must be restricted, but we have cantonments now, where people can walk across at any time of the day, be it at night. So, restricting entry to such a place requires a lot of funding, and so, the hon. Minister of Defence must make sure that he applies his mind to that.

 

Madam Speaker, on page 7, the report highlights some of the challenges, which my colleague, Hon. Katakwe, tried to touch on. There is an issue of inadequate funding towards leave, travel grants and settling allowances. As the House may be aware, these are small motivation factors for our men and women in uniform. If we cannot manage to fund them on these little issues then, it poses a challenge.

 

Madam Speaker, the reason we confine our trained men and women in cantonments is for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is easy to mobilise them when they are in a cantonment. Now, if there are soldiers living in Kanyama or Msisi compounds as it is now, it is very difficult to mobilise them at a time of need. Secondly, they are also subjected to risk factors in the communities they live. So, projects such as the Buffalo Camp, which my hon. Colleague spoke about, were meant to address the challenge of accommodating our men and women in the Defence Forces in designated areas. It is practice anywhere in the world to have military men confined in places. We provide facilities there for sports, social amenities, bars and messes so that the military personnel are kept in those surroundings. If you expose them so much to interaction with civilians, you can end up experiencing some chaos. So, the hon. Minister of Defence should do what he can to mobilise resources. He should find time to engage the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on these issues. Having been in the security cluster myself, I know that it is not easy to mobilise resources for the infrastructure required for our men and women in uniform.

 

Madam Speaker, let me come to the issue of adequate water supply. Our men and women are subjected to health challenges. Through one of the Committees, we found that Kafubu Water and Sanitation Company Limited (KWSC) on the Copperbelt lamented on the challenges it has with our men and women in uniform. The company has to cut water supply to the Defence Forces because of non-payment of water bills. So, I think that it is important that we prioritise those areas.

 

Madam Speaker, regarding health facilities, they have seen the modern hospital that the Patriotic Front (PF) embarked on improving, such as the Maina Soko Military Hospital. It is a modern facility now and is a marvel. However, that should be replicated everywhere. I have heard that Kalewa Barracks Hospital in Ndola is catering for many people, but the facilities are limited. The whole idea was to replicate what is happening at the headquarters in other cantonments so that our men and women in uniform and their families are catered for in terms of healthcare. So, the hon. Minister should try to address that issue. Like I have said, it is not easy to mobilise funds, but through continuous engagement with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the hon. Minister of Defence can easily find a way around those challenges.

 

Madam Speaker, regarding drugs and medical supplies, we have military men who are well trained as medical doctors and nurses. However, if they are not given the proper medical supplies, it comes to nothing, and they will be frustrated. So, let us put our money where it matters most.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to urge the hon. Minister of Defence to follow the hierarchy as the ministry provides the infrastructure and all the necessities for our Defence Forces. We all know that the Zambia Army is on top, followed by the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) and then, the Zambia National Service (ZNS). Let us not short-change the hierarchy at any given time. He should prioritise the hierarchy to avoid a situation like the one happening in Sudan. The hon. Minister of Defence and I know exactly where that emanated from. So, it is important that we maintain the hierarchy even as we support the Defence Forces financially and in the way that we give them support systems.

 

Madam Speaker, on the same page, we have issues of inadequate buses, troop carriers. How can the hon. Minister respond to that? He is doing so well in the conflict areas, such as the Central African Republic (CAR). We are proud to have our men and women there. However, if we do not motivate them with troop carriers, how will we move them at the time of need?

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Defence needs to be aggressive in Cabinet. We have the Defence Council where he needs to prioritise these issues. It is very difficult to get people to understand them, but the hon. Minister must, at all times, carry his men and women on his shoulders. He should feel for them. He should go on the ground and see what they are going through, because if they are not motivated, you and I will not feel safe. It is important that we, collectively, find a way to make sure that our Defence Forces are properly taken care of. This is a national issue, and I urge the hon. Minister to address it. It is not easy to make people understand why we should prioritise security matters.

 

Madam Speaker, this report is basically talking about the general welfare of the Defence Forces. Indeed, our men and women in uniform need to be supported by all of us because if we do not, national security will be at risk.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My apologies to the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwana Mkubwa. We are behind time. We have two more hon. Ministers who want to debate.

 

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you and the Committee for the wonderful work done and the way that the Motion has been presented, moved and seconded.

 

Madam Speaker, the issue of the infrastructure for the Defence Forces, our cantonments and our barracks is well-known. As a member of the Defence Council myself, and as Hon. Kampyongo has said, I understand this very well. We know that we need a motivated Defence Force. In order for the Defence Forces to be motivated, they need to live in areas which enable them to be motivated. We have buildings which were built many years ago; some of the houses in the barracks were built during the colonial times. Over time, they have become very old and therefore dilapidated. That is the situation we have.

 

Madam Speaker, the issue at hand is the size of our economy. We can sit here and talk about increased allocation to this particular ministry or that ministry, but whatever we do, we take from ‘a’ to add to ‘b’.  Any ministry, if I were to bet on the Floor of the House, would say that it is underfunded. So, the key issue here is exactly what this Government is doing to grow the economy. We have President Hakainde Hichilema, who does not sleep. He dreams about growing the economy, and he puts in action the policies that can grow the economy. When that is done, we will then be in a position to address most of these issues.

 

Madam Speaker, let me talk about specific areas. We understand the fabricated units which have prematurely failed because of termites. I think that the prefabricated units that were brought a long time ago may not have been suitable. The New Dawn Government has allowed a prefabricated factory to be put up in a Multi-Facility Economic Zone (MFEZ) by a company known as China Jiangsu International (CJI) in partnership with the National Housing Authority (NHA). The prefabricated units that will come out of there are reinforced panels. In terms of tested strength, those panels are much stronger than ordinary concrete blocks. So, we should not be afraid of prefabricated panels, except we should have the right ones. I would urge the Committee to go and visit that factory, which will soon be commissioned, to see the panels that are being used.

 

Madam Speaker, the use of the Defence personnel for construction is a good suggestion, but the key issue is resources. This Government is and has been using Defence Force personnel in the infrastructure space to build roads, bridges, and other things. Therefore, building houses, such as what is happening with the Zambia Correctional Service, can be extended when resources are made available. The Defence Forces, that is, the Zambia Army and so on, can be engaged to build houses in their barracks. The seconder said that the Government should increase the allocations. However, it is a question of resources. Indeed, the works at Buffalo Park Barracks are at a standstill. The Government takes note of that. Further, there are consultations on the L85 Apollo Camp, in Lusaka West, between the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Ministry of Defence to see what can be done.

 

Madam Speaker, the critical issues have been outlined, and I support the Motion to adopt the report. We, as a ministry, have taken note and what can be done shall be done.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

The Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to present our views, as the Ministry of Defence, on the Motion that has been presented to adopt the report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs.

 

Madam Speaker, in the first instance, please, allow me to thank your Committee for a job well done. I think that the report is very good, thorough, objective and factual in many ways. So, I thank your Committee for doing a damn good job.

 

Sorry about that.

 

Madam Speaker, I must say that the recommendations that have been put across, on the Floor of Parliament today by various hon. Members who have debated, and more so in the report, are correct. As a ministry, we take the recommendations seriously. As your Committee might have observed during its tour, most military infrastructure was built before Independence. We have heard that some of the buildings were built in 1933. Naturally, buildings built in 1933 and post-Independence without proper care would be dilapidated. It is true that attempts have been made recently by the Government to build some infrastructure for our men and women in uniform. For example, the modern facilities at Kara Barracks, 48^th Marine Commando Unit Special Forces of the Zambia Army in Kawambwa. Nevertheless, infrastructure remains inadequate, and has been compounded by recent massive recruitment in the defence force, as expanded personnel require additional housing and office accommodation.

 

Madam Speaker, I think, the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development said something on the prefabricated housing units. On L85 Apollo Camp, it is unfortunate that the type of prefabricated housing units that we went for were not as durable as they ought to be. Fortunately, there is new technology. So, should we use prefabricated housing again, we will use it. The advantage of prefabricated housing is that we can build many units in a short space of time. Given the shortfall of infrastructure for the defence force, we need technology that can quickly, efficiently and effectively assist us in building housing units in a short time. With the example that has been given and a programme, which we will put in place with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, in terms of financing, we should be able to use technology that is better than mortar and concrete.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government is committed to improving the status of infrastructure at all its military facilities. However, that goodwill is constrained by our limited fiscal space. That matter has come out clearly from the hon. Members who have debated. Fiscal space is a challenge, and we know that those are legacy issues; the borrowing. The economy is small and cannot support the various needs that the nation requires such as health, the military, roads, etcetera. Everybody looks to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to get a bit of what they can get to ensure that certain facilities are put in place. So, working within that limitation, we would like, nevertheless, to improve the infrastructure that is required by the defence force. It is necessary and important that the defence force gets the basic minimum infrastructure.

 

Madam Speaker, let me immediately talk about the water situation. I think that was emphasised in the report. It is important. We have a special programme that we have put in place to ensure that all military cantonments have the necessary water and sanitation needs. Water is life, and sanitation is health. Having a grouping of people, especially the military, in one place without water and sanitation is a recipe for disaster. So, a good programme has been put in place, together with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, to ensure that, at the minimum, water is made available.

 

Madam Speaker, as Minister responsible for overseeing the effectiveness in executing the constitutional mandate of preserving, and defending the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Zambia, I will endeavour to ensure that the ministry provides decent infrastructure for our men and women in uniform.

 

Madam Speaker, once again, I would like to take this opportunity to thank everybody who has contributed to the debate on the Motion to adopt the report, and for the support that has been rendered. The debate was good.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: Madam Speaker, I think, my task now remains simple. I would like to thank all those who have debated and, indeed, the general House for supporting the Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, it is not my intention to open up the debate again. However, maybe, let me say a few words to emphasise and advise on the infrastructure for our defence force. I want to say this earnestly from my heart, having served in the defence force for thirty-five years. I am aware that we will never have the resources to sort out accommodation in the short or long term. However, we can look at one of the recommendations in the report, of allowing the defence force to build its own accommodation with supervision from the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, while releasing money in bits.

 

Madam Speaker, we have lived with that problem in the Defence Force for a long time, and this country will never have millions of dollars to attend to it. What we found on the ground is that the issue of accommodation requires more money. The young men and women being recruited now are coming from our homes. They have special educational qualifications. Some of them are bricklayers, electricians and carpenters. I want to believe, for now, that building more housing units for the army will be the cheapest way of trying to solve that problem. The Government recruited many of them since 2021. In a few years, those young men and women will grow up and get married. The question we should be asking today is: Where are they going to stay? We cannot have them scattered around in compounds. Soldiers are assets of the nation and they need to be looked after. If we are going to have soldiers unaccounted for because they cannot report for work due to staying in distant places, it is a security issue that should not be allowed.

 

Madam Speaker, I thought I should emphasise that point in my closing remarks. Otherwise, I want to thank the House, once again, for supporting the Motion. I am happy that the hon. Minister has taken note of the report and I am sure we will see more support for our Defence Force.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Question put and agreed to. 

 

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

 

[ THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES NO. 1 OF  2025

 

Vote 03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission of Zambia – K342,082,000)

 

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane):  Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K342,082,000 be approved in respect of Head 05 – Electoral Commission of Zambia, as part of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2025.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, in line with Standing Order No. 171(4), debate on this Head shall be restricted to not more than one hon. Member from each political grouping, meaning that each political party has to present one debater. This procedure shall apply to all subsequent Heads.

 

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Thank you so much, Mr Chairperson, for allowing me to make a very brief comment on Head 05.

 

 Mr Chairperson, in the substantive Budget for the 2025 fiscal year, we approved a total sum of K327,976,373 for this Head. The hon. Minister has come back to us seeking approval for an additional sum of K342,082,000. As we all know, 2026 will be an election year. We are going to conduct presidential, parliamentary and local government elections. I was part of the Committee that scrutinised the estimates in the substantive Budget and we raised concerns about finances not being adequate even at that time. The minimal increase in the Budget through the Supplementary Estimates does not speak to the issues that were raised when we were scrutinising the estimates for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). There are activities such as sensitising people, continuous voter registration and the voter registration that will have to be conducted in 2026.

 

Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that the ECZ is properly funded because, even as we speak now, it is conducting by-elections. I do not see any budget line where the institution drew funds to conduct the various by-elections that we have had. So, it is important to plan for various activities, especially for next year, in order for the ECZ to conduct credible and acceptable elections. We would like to see a lot of engagement between the ECZ and various stakeholders to make sure that all stakeholders are carried on board. The preparations for the general elections should be done with inclusive input from all necessary stakeholders. To be able to do that, the institution will require adequate funding.

 

Mr Chairperson, I will conclude by urging the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that the planning component of elections is prioritised. In that regard, I do not think that the money we are allocating to the ECZ is adequate for the institution to execute its mandate of ensuring free and fair elections. So, we would like to reconsider the figures that are indicated. These issues were raised as we were dealing with the main Budget for this year. I thought the Supplementary Budget would do more in ensuring that adequate resources are allocated to the ECZ.

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Dr Musokotwane: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Chairperson, there is no debate about what Hon. Kampyongo is saying. We all want good, peaceful and credible elections next year. This is why we have provided the Supplementary Budget, and we are doing that now. If it proves that the amount is not enough, of course, after making a careful evaluation that the money is being utilised properly, the state will have to decide what to do to provide more resources. As for by-elections, they were to be done under the contingency plan as of now. I think, we are catered for. More importantly, this is why the Constitutional Amendment is required to deal with issues like this one of by-elections. Honestly, we are spending too much on by-elections. So, if we cannot afford as a country, we would rather invest that money into development, but that requires changing the Constitution.

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Vote 5 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 8 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – K337,328,328)

 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K337,328,328 be approved in respect of Head 8 – Cabinet Office – Office of the President - K337,328,328, as part of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2025.

 

Vote 8 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police Services – K80,000,000)

 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K80,000,000 be approved in respect of Head 11 – Zambia Police Service - K80,000,000, as part of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2025.

 

Vote 11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K408,794,928)

 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K408,794,928 be approved in respect of Head 14 – Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development - K408,794,928, as part of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2025.

 

Vote 14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security – K226,186,774)

 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K226,186,774 be approved in respect of Head 15 – Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security - K226,186,774, as part of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2025.

 

VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security – K226,186,774)

 

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Thank you so much, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Chairperson, indeed, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is proposing to supplement the expenditure of Programme 4176 – Legal Identity, Civil Registration and Citizenship Services, Sub Programme 002 – National Registration Services – K226,186,774.

 

Mr Chairperson, indeed, this is a key component under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. As the House maybe aware, I spoke to the upcoming general elections next year. The Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security under this programme is conducting mobile registration of citizens, which includes issuance of National Registration Cards (NRCs) to those who have attained the age of sixteen and the replacement of those who have lost their NRCs.

 

Mr Chairperson, I hope the sum being proposed here will address the challenges and the feedback we have received from different areas. Unlike in the past, we have been told that the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security is sending officers to selected polling stations because in the past, all polling Stations could receive officers to be stationed at a particular polling station for a period ninety days in order for people to have access to Government services. Unfortunately, this year, we have been told that the officers are only going to selected polling stations, which is posing a challenge to many citizens because they still have to cover long distances in order to access the national document, which they are entitled to. So, we hope that with this funding, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security will probably extend the period for people to access the services of the National Registration so that all other areas that have been left out can be catered for because people cannot miss the opportunity to have their NRCs to enable them exercise their Constitutional right to participate in the elections next year.

 

Mr Chairperson, we hope that with this funding, the Ministry of Home Affair and Internal Security will probably extend the period for people to acquire the National Registration Cards (NRCs) so that all those in areas that have been left out can be catered for.  People cannot miss that opportunity to get their NRCs so that they exercise their constitutional right to participate in the elections next year.

 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to say that the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship still requires more funding because there is a very important Integrated National Registration Information System that the Minisry of Home Affairs and Internal Security has halted. That system should have migrated us from manual NRCs to biometric identity cards as is obtaining in other countries.

 

I therefore, wish to remind the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that, in as much as that programme was halted, it must be funded so that it is fully implemented due to the upcoming elections. In future, the programme should be funded because it provides answers to issues of identity fraud. People are being defrauded in so many ways. Pensioners have lost their funds because of the porous nature of our identity cards. The rationale behind the introduction of that very important digital system was to enhance our civil registration processes, which have been done manually over the years since independence. So, it is very important that we do not lose sight of mobilising resources for this important programme. We want the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security to be funded so that the National Mobile National Registration Card exercise that is going on as we speak can cater for all the polling stations, as it were.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, this is precisely why we are supplementing the Vote so that all those nice things that Mr Kampyongo is talking about are realised.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Vote 15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

_______

 

HOUSE RESUMED

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

(Progress reported)

 

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The House adjourned at 1858 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 4^th July, 2025.

 

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