Tuesday, 15th October, 2024

Tuesday, 15^th October, 2024

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

ANNONCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

PRESENCE IN THE PUBLIC GALLERY OF STUDENTS AND LECTURERS FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA LAW ASSOCIATION

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I have an announcement to make. I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of Students and Lecturers from the University of Zambia Law Association, Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

______

BUSINESS STATEMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Business Committee met on Monday, 14^th October, 2024, to determine and schedule Business of the House for the period 15^th to 17^th October, 2024. In this regard, the committee resolved to lay before the House the following business for consideration:

Announcements

The Hon. Madam Speaker may make announcements, if there will be any.

Rulings

The Hon. Speaker may render rulings, if there will be any.

Ministerial Statements

Hon. Ministers will render statements on topical issues, if there will be any, during this period.

Private Member’s Motions

Two Private Member’s Motions will be considered as follows:

Mr Kangombe, MP, will move a Motion to request large-scale mining companies to produce electricity for their production on 16^th October, 2024; and

Mr Chanda, MP, will move a Motion to promote countrywide breeding of Niloticus Tilapia, on 16^th October, 2024.

Bills

The Bills listed hereunder will be considered:

The Health Professions Bill, No. 11 of 2024. This will be at Second Reading stage. The date for consideration is yet to be determined;
The National Health Research and Training Institute Bill, No. 13 of 2024. This will be at Second Reading stage. The date for consideration is yet to be determined;
The Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (Amendment) Bill, No. 14 of 2024. This will be at Second Reading stage. The date for consideration is yet to be determined; and
The Zambia National Public Health Institute (Amendment) Bill, No. 15 of 2024. This will be at Second Reading stage. The date for consideration is yet to be determined.

Reports on International Conferences

Reports on International Conferences will be presented, if there will be any

Questions for Oral Answer and Written Answer

The hon. Ministers will respond to twenty-two question for oral and written answer as set out hereunder, during the same period. The details of questions are contained in the Notice of Questions circulated to all hon. Members.

Questions on standby

The questions on standby to replace questions that may not be placed on the Order Paper on the designated day for one reason or another are set out hereunder:

Question No. Ministry

120 Infrastruct6ure, Housing and Urban Development

110 Finance and National Planning

112 Information and Media

175 Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development

198 Home Affairs and Internal Security

47 Lands and Natural Resources

10 Labour and Social Security

180 Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development

44 Local Governance and Rural Development

38 Health

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the House Business Committee, and in accordance with Standing Order No. 44 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, I have the pleasure of presenting the business for the next two weeks to this august House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

MR B. MPUNDU, HON. MEMBER FOR NKANA, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON ERRATIC SUPPLY OF FUEL

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I rise on this Urgent Matter without Notice, which I would like to direct to the hon. Minister of Energy. However, in his absence, I direct it to Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, fuel is the lifeblood of our economy. Without it, the economy would crumble or die. In his wisdom, the late Founding President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, established the Tanzania Zambia-Mafuta (TAZAMA) pipeline and Indeni Energy Company Limited to guarantee the supply of fuel and stability of its price.

Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President is aware that in the absence of electricity, some health facilities are operating on generator sets that use fuel. Without fuel at those facilities, patients who are dependent on machines propelled by power would obviously die. There is a looming disaster of a fuel shortage today across the country, which I am sure she is are aware of, owing to the flawed policy decision that was made by the New Dawn Government to step out of the fuel sub-sector. There is no government in the world that steps out of the fuel sub-sector, but the New Dawn Government stepped out, which has led to where we are.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, we are now at the mercy of the private sector and, today, as I speak, the Copperbelt Province, Lusaka Province and many parts of the country are experiencing serious shortages of fuel, to the extent that in some places to the north-west, fuel is fetching as much as K100 per litre.

Hon. Opposition Members: Eh!

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, is Her Honour the Vice-President in order to sit there very quietly, though she came in late, …

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: … and not inform the nation what the Government is doing to address the critical component of our economy, fuel?

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, regarding that matter, I think that the public needs to know why there has been erratic supply of fuel. It was experienced this week and last week, but not what the hon. Member for Nkana mentioned. It would be wise that the hon. Minister of Energy comes to the House to inform the public why there is an erratic supply of fuel in the country. I request the hon. Minister to come to the House next week on Tuesday with a ministerial statement …

Mr B. Mpundu: Kwalepa!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … just to update the nation on what is happening regarding the supply of fuel on the Zambian market.

I thank you.

MR SING’OMBE, HON. MEMBER FOR DUNDUMWEZI, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON FARMERS WHO ARE FAILING TO ACCESS INPUTS DUE TO MISMATCH BETWEEN THEIR NATIONAL REGISTRATION CARD NUMBERS AND REGISTERED PHONE NUMBERS

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. My Urgent Matter without Notice goes to Her Honour the Vice-President, who arrived in this House on time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: The reason we are asking questions is that she is in her seat.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, the United Party for National Development (UPND) has recorded great growth in –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Kapyanga interjected.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members on my left!

Ms Sefulo: Iwe, there is growth!

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mpika!

Ms Sefulo: Mupisheni!

Hon. Government Members: Mupisheni! Chase him!

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Lunte, can you please, give him the chance conclude his matter.

The hon. Member for Dundumwezi, you may continue with your Urgent Matter without Notice.

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, you wonder where some people grew up from and which schools they went to. Before I say anything, he is rising on a point of order.

Madam Speaker, what I was saying is that in the Ministry of Agriculture, something that we have never seen before is happening in this country. Right now, farmers are redeeming and collecting their inputs the very day they deposit money.

Ms Sefulo: Correct!

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, there are, however, very few farmers who have been told that their National Registration Card (NRC) numbers do not match the phone numbers registered. So, they are asking what assurance the Government is giving them for them on accessing their inputs on time.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Dundumwezi, you might as well use another forum to raise that matter so that it can be attended to. It is more of an administrative matter only affecting certain constituencies. So, please, find a way of bringing the matter back to the Floor of the House.

I thank you.

MR MUNIR ZULU, HON MEMBER FOR LUMEZI, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON ALLEGED RESIGNATION OF THE CHIEF JUSTICE

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you so very kindly for permitting the voice of Lumezi to raise an Urgent Matter without Notice, directed to Her Honour the Vice-President of the Republic of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President should not worry as it is not a problematic matter, but one that need urgent Address.

Madam Speaker, for the last few months, days and hours, this country has witnessed unprecedented levels of accidents across it. They started with the Chief Justice of the Republic of Zambia. Social media is flooded with stories. I do not want to say ‘rumors’ about the current Chief Justice having rendered in his resignation. It is the wish of the people of Zambia to get an update on the condition of the Chief Justice. They would like to know whether he resigned or if he is performing his functions, especially given that the accidents that have been taking place in the last few months, days and hours have been unprecedented.

I seek your serious indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, your issue has so many components. When you look at the requirements for a matter to be admissible, it has to deal with only one issue. In your matter, you talked about the resignation of the Chief Justice, the condition of the Chief Justice, and the accidents. It is now very difficult to pick out a single thing that you are talking about. You have to be very precise. So, because your matter is so loaded, it is not admissible.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

MEASURES TO END ONLINE SCAMS

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me the opportunity to render a joint Ministerial Statement in response to an Urgent Matter without Notice raised by the Member of Parliament for Roan, Hon. Chibuye, on the measures the Government is putting in place to curb online scams. My statement will address the extent of the scams and the efforts being made to fight the vice. Let me point out that this statement is a product of the collaborative effort of the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, and the Ministry of Technology and Science.

Madam Speaker, in recent years, we have witnessed a rise in online and mobile money scams targeting our citizens. People from all walks of life are being defrauded by criminals who exploit the convenience of digital platforms to perpetrate fraudulent schemes. One common scam involves individuals claiming to offer empowerment funds for the youth or magic money to unsuspecting members of the public. The scams can scale up their operations easily by using computers to send millions of scam phone calls, short messaging service (SMS), Whatsapp or Telegram messages daily. Phishing scams are also a significant concern. Scammers impersonate trusted entities, such as Government agencies, banks and delivery companies, misleading victims into revealing confidential information. This results in financial losses for many, eroding public trust in digital financial services in Zambia. Scammers are both locally based and part of transnational organised criminal groups. These criminals are technologically adept and use sophisticated methods to cover their tracks. Their operations are well-resourced and extensive, which makes it challenging to track them down.

Madam Speaker, between 2023 and the first half of 2024, the Zambia Police Service (ZPS) recorded 1,124 online scams, which include 320 cases of obtaining money by false pretences, 170 cases of cyber extortion, 184 cases of unauthorised access to data and 450 identity-related crimes. The combined losses amounted to over K38,948,000, of which property valued at K12,407,990 has been recovered. Investigations in 560 cases have been concluded and taken to court, with convictions secured in 117 cases. Trial is ongoing in the remaining cases.

Madam Speaker, anyone can fall prey to scams, and it is a mistake to think that only certain segments of our population are targeted. Young adults between the ages of twenty and forty are particularly prone to job and Electronic-Commerce (e-Commerce) scams, while elderly citizens over fifty years mainly fall victim to phishing, fake friend calls and investment scams.

Madam Speaker, with the challenging global economic conditions, we should expect more scams in which perpetrators request for money from victims. Many of us have received scam messages through chat applications like Telegram and Whatsapp, offering attractive commissions for simple online tasks. Scammers often ask victims to provide funds in return for promised rewards. I strongly urge the public to be cautious of such offers, as legitimate companies will never ask for money before starting work.

Madam Speaker, e-Commerce scams are another concern, especially as people seek attractive deals to cope with the rising costs of living. Victims may not only lose money, but also unknowingly give up control of their bank accounts.

Madam Speaker, our Government recognises the severe impact these fraudulent activities have on the lives of ordinary people. As Minister of Hone Affairs and Internal Security, working with the Ministry of Technology and Science, I would like to assure the public that we are taking decisive actions to combat these crimes. We are strengthening efforts to track, apprehend and prosecute scammers, and we are collaborating with financial institutions, mobile network operators and other stakeholders to implement stronger security measures and raise public awareness.

Madam Speaker, as the Government, we are not only working to stamp out scams. Scammers are constantly evolving, targeting human vulnerabilities to continue their illicit activities. Enforcement alone is not enough. So, we are also focusing on educating the public to become more aware and discerning, protecting themselves and others from falling victim to scams. While many people know about scams, they may not fully understand the steps they can take to protect themselves. We aim to bridge this awareness gap by sensitising them. The Government has heightened awareness raising activities through the establishment of the short code *707# for people to report mobile scams and fraud. I wish to assure the House and the general public that the Government is taking other proactive steps to protect citizens from online fraud, particularly on social media platforms.

Madam Speaker, the Government has also engaged all mobile network operators to ensure that their agents do not issue pre-registered Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) cards or SIM cards using National Registration Cards (NRCs) that do not belong to the SIM card owners. This will significantly contribute to managing some of the identity challenges being faced.

Madam Speaker, as with so many forms of crime, developments in modern technology have brought many benefits to our society but created new opportunities for those who seek to engage in fraud. In this regard, it is worth noting that the important work of the Zambia Police Service (ZPS) through the Cyber Crimes Unit, which we are capacitating in tackling such cyber-enabled crimes in collaboration with the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA). We are enhancing the capacity of these institutions to respond to cyber-enabled fraud and economic crimes.

Madam Speaker, in the broader area of cyber security policy and legislation, we have pursued legislative and policy changes to tackle and prevent cyber-crimes as well as improve cyber security. The Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Act No. 2 of 2021 provides for, among other cyber-related issues, cyber security, and criminalises cyber extortion and unauthorised access to data. To further secure the cyber space, the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Act of 2021 will be repealed. Two Bills, the Cyber Security and the Cyber Crimes Bills, that will be before this House for consideration have since been developed.

Madam Speaker, the objects of the Bills, among others, are to provide for offences relating to computers and computer systems, provide for the protection of persons against cyber crimes and to provide for cyber security in the Republic. We will continue working with all stakeholders to ensure that the policy and legal frameworks comprehensively respond to emerging issues.

Madam Speaker, in 2021, the Data Protection Act was enacted to provide an effective system for the use and protection of personal data and to regulate the collection, use, transmission, storage and, otherwise, processing of personal data. Through our dedicated institutions, we are enforcing the provisions of our pieces of legislation to ensure the security of the cyber space and protect the general public.

Madam Speaker, to enlist the support of the global community in securing the cyber space and heightening the fight against cyber crimes, we are taking steps to be party to a number of international instruments, including the Budapest Convention, which is a treaty aimed at combating cybercrimes globally.

Madam Speaker, we are working closely with all stakeholders to raise awareness on the importance of setting security pins on WhatsApp and SIM cards to prevent account takeovers. Furthermore, we are enhancing compliance checks to ensure that telecommunication operators and their partners adhere to strict security protocol, during SIM registration. These measures are crucial in safe guarding the personal information and financial security of all Zambians.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement made by the hon. Minister.

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security for that extensive statement.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that in regard to the scammers, their tracks are difficult to follow. We, in the rural constituency, receive messages like, “Indalama sha Constituency Development Fund (CDF) nashifuma”, or that money for the CDF has been released, and the target, sometimes, is –

Mr Jamba: Ishabalanda!

Laughter

Ms Sefulo: “Indalama shabalanda nashingila, isha CDF.” However, the targets are usually in the rural constituencies.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon Member for Mwandi, you mentioned something in a language I do not know.

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, what I said means that, the money for the poor, through the CDF, has come through. Usually such messages are sent, and the scammers even ask for our National Registration Card (NRC) numbers in order to receive the money. They sometimes target rural constituencies that do not have this information. Usually, in Lusaka, there are many activities that engage the citizenry to make sure that they understand what is involved in this country. However, in the rural constituencies, sensitisation is very low. So, what can be done to make sure that the information that exists within, for example, the urban areas also reaches the rural constituencies which have become targets of those cyber crimes?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, as I indicated, we are enhancing collaboration among the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, the Ministry of Technology and Science, and other stakeholders to ensure that members of public are educated pertaining to the increasing incidences of scams in the country. We will encourage members of the public, especially hon. Members of Parliament, to go on radio together with ourselves, and start educating members of the public and raise awareness on the issues at hand.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me a chance, on behalf of the people of Lundazi, to ask a follow-up question on this matter which is a challenge, especially for us in rural areas.

Madam Speaker, most of the times, the scammers target us, hon. Members of Parliament, by using our faces as they try to engage the poor people. It is quite a challenge because, for example, in Lundazi, you will find that if the scammers ask people to donate a K200 purporting to be the Member of Parliament, people easily fall for that. Is the Government looking at the Integrated National Registration Information System (INRIS). This definitely, is happening because anyone can buy a Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) card on the streets and utilise it. When is the Government going to start using the INRIS so that we can do away with some of those scammers? Furthermore, why is the ministry not using the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), which can translate messages into all the languages in our country, to warn the people out there?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member asked two questions; one question relates to when the Government is going to finalise the implementation of the Integrated National Registration Information System (INRIS) and the second one is why the Government is not using the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) to inform members of the public.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, you may pick one question.

Mr Mwiimbu: Exactly, Madam Speaker. I will choose the second question. The answer is that the Government is using the ZNBC to inform the public.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, it is one question per member.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for this opportunity to ask a question on a point of clarification and also, pass regards from the good people of Lubansenshi.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that people who are fond of stealing money from people, both the poor and the rich, are well-known and that some of them are appearing before the courts. Can he confirm that some of those criminals are from mobile service providers such as Airtel, Mobile Telecommunications Network (MTN) Group Limited and Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (Zamtel)? I am asking this knowing well that for someone to know the password and subsequently even manage to withdraw the money, the person understands the system very well. In the Government’s findings, does it have people from the mobile service providers who have been caught and are appearing before the courts of law?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, let me state that in the process of investigations, we have come across information to the effect that some of those involved either used to work with the mobile service providers or are agents. So, I confirm that there are such issues.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned, in his statement, that the Cyber Crimes Unit is domiciled at his ministry. The question that I have is on the tools and systems that the unit uses. He confessed that, yes, nowadays, technology, in terms of the use of smart phones, computers and the like his advanced in Zambia. Is he satisfied with the tools and systems that the Zambia Police Service has to curbing cyber crimes?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, let me state that my ministry has tools that we are utilising to track the scammers. However, as you may be aware, technology evolves and, as it does so, there is a need for us to acquire more sophisticated equipment. We are endeavouring to do that. I will not state that I am satisfied with the equipment we have.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the elaborate statement.

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, some of the scammers may be foreigners while others are our citizens. However, platforms such as social media can create jobs for our youths through what is called monetisation. As the youth create content on social media platforms, they make money. The Government needs to take that step and create jobs. However, instead of taking the step of monetising the use of social media, the Government wants to clamp down on social media using the Cyber Security Act.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Simumba: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, when they were in the Opposition, members of the United Party for National Development (UPND) said that the Cyber Security Act was a bad law. I am sure that as morality demands, the law remains a bad one. What has changed about the Act now?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I want to put it on record that we never supported the current cyber security law. We were defeated. When we were defeated, the Opposition now, at that time. The Ruling Party, were celebrating, saying that they had defeated us. So, they should continue celebrating …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: … as we implement the bad law which they enacted. Since we know that it is a bad law, we are changing it; we are amending it by coming up with a new law that will strengthen the rules pertaining to the cyberspace. In the meantime, they should continue dancing and enjoying the law which they enacted.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Ati niba former lawyer ba Jack!

Laughter

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to ask a follow-up question on the ministerial statement.

The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security has confirmed that poverty is one of the reasons for what we are debating right now. Poverty in the New Dawn Government has made the topic we are discussing worse than it was before. What measures have been put in place to make sure that this poverty is reduced and cybercrime, like the one we are talking about now, committed by scammers, is reduced, especially since many people have been buying pre-registered Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) cards to perpetuate those crimes? We expect to see this crime continue because of the poverty that the hon. Minister has confirmed exists. What measures have been put in place to fight poverty, which is causing scammers to perpetuate their acts?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, let me state, without any fear of contradiction, …

Mr Simumba: Chimbala!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: … that the poverty Zambians are facing was cooked and prepared by the Patriotic Front (PF).

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Abene ba chimbala!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, –

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, let the hon. Minister finish answering the question.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I want to elaborate further on how…

Mr Twasa: Elaborate!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: …the PF fried poverty and served it in this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, when the PF came into office –

Mr Simumba: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: That was your question.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: You want me to answer your question.

Madam Speaker, when the PF came into power, the Kwacha to the United States Dollar exchange rate was at K5 to $1. When we booted them out, packed them and ensured that they would never come back, it was at K22 to a Dollar.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: As a result of frying of the Dollar, and making it stronger than the Kwacha, …

Mr Simumba: How much was the Kwacha to a Dollar?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: … poverty started creeping into the country. Further, …

Mr Simumba: How much is the Dollar today?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: … because of the debt, which was accumulated by the PF, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: … and whose money was not properly utilised, we investigated and …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: … and some of the people are now in jail …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: … because of what they did.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, that was the start of poverty. I would go further, but because I want them to ask me another question to respond to, I will sit down.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is a point of order by the hon. Member for Mkushi North.

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister seated there in order to say that members of the Patriotic Front (PF) are the ones who brought poverty?

Mr Munsanje: Yes!

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, when the United Party for National Development (UPND) came into power, it found 1.5 million tonnes of maize, which it decided to sell to Tanzania and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) then started bringing in genetically modified (GM) food with aflatoxins to give to the people of Zambia. In fact, by now, we are supposed to take that hon. Minister to court (pointing at Mr Mwiimbu, SC.) for feeding people GM food, which is not supposed to be done.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mkushi North, –

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Simumba: Chimbala!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think that we know the rules that apply when rising on a point of order.

Hon. Member for Mkushi North, you do not need to debate your point of order. You are supposed to be precise, but you are now discussing the hon. Minister. We are not allowed to discuss ourselves. Please, refrain from discussing hon. Members. The point of order should be brief. Avoid debating it.

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, I am raising this point of order on Standing Order No. 71.

When this bad UPND Government took over from the PF, it found mealie meal selling at K120.

Mr Simumba: Yes!

Mr Chisopa: Today, the mealie-meal is selling at K400.

Mr Munsanje: Question!

Mr Chisopa: In the valley, where I come from, it is as expensive as K700.

Ms Nyirenda: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisopa: Is the Government in order to insinuate and mislead the people of Zambia that we, the members of the PF, are the ones who brought poverty when we hear that even our Head of State was telling us to start eating leftover food?

Mr Simumba: Icimbala!

Mr Chisopa: I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mkushi North, I think that the way this matter has been brought out is such that it was specifically on cyber crime and that is the matter which is on the Floor. Now, you are running away from the Ministerial Statement that is on the Floor of the House. Moreover, we still have the opportunity to ask questions. We still have thirteen minutes to ask questions. If any hon. Member has not asked the question, they still have an opportunity to ask the hon. Minister, instead of coming up with a point of order which, in my case, is not admissible because it is totally unrelated to what is held in the Ministerial Statement.

Hon. Members, can we use the opportunity to ask more questions instead of rising on points of order. We still have time.

Interruptions

Madam Frist Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister will answer his question as he takes the next question.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the growth of the fintech business or financial transactions is actually under threat due to the scammers and if this is left unchecked, we are likely to see many Zambians who are involved in fintech business losing trust. I want to know what measures the hon. Minister has put in place so that the people who are in the fintech business are actually protected from scammers.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, in responding to the question that was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasenengwa, I want to state that I answered him that the main thrust of his question was on poverty, as that was the cause. So, I was elaborating that there was poverty, which our colleagues created.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: I answered him.

Hon. PF Members: Measures!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I want to state that as a result of the concerns that are being expressed by members of the public and other users of the cyber space, we are enhancing the law, and the Bill will be brought to the House before we rise.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to ask a question and thank the hon. Minister for the response. I realise that he has actually responded favourably to the question, but I am worried that K38,948,000 was involved and, so far, from scammed people. This points clearly that this is a lucrative business.

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister says that the scammers are technologically advanced, I get worried. Is he telling us that the men and women from his ministry and the men and women form the Ministry of Information and Media are technological shallow for them to be beaten to this game? Further, could he state as to whether there are some people within the ministries who are involved in aiding scammers to perpetuate this vice?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, again, this is a reminder that you can only ask one question.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I would not want to describe my officers as shallow in the process of performing their duties. Let me inform the nation that my officers and the officers working at the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) have been working prudently and professionally. However, as the House may be aware, scammers are also technologically advanced in their field. The scams are happening in the whole world, not only in Zambia. As a way of acknowledging the problem, my ministry is coming up with a new institution that will specifically deal with cyber crimes, and it is my plea that my hon. Colleagues will support the law that will be presented to this House in order to prevent the scams from taking root in Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I only wish that one day, we will realise that we should not be politicking in this House, but rather collectively bringing out solutions to the …

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: … challenges that the nation is facing. We are elected leaders.

Madam Speaker, clearly, scammers are known individuals and some of them are facing prosecution. Probably, some have already been convicted. Is the ministry in a position to, probably, start publishing the names of such individuals in our papers the media houses, and, particularly, on social media so that our people out there can be aware of who is involved.

Madam Speaker, in my constituency, I know three farmers who just sold their maize and put the money into their Airtel Money accounts, but they lost the money, and have not recovered it. Does the ministry have any plans to start publishing the faces of those scammers so that we know them, unlike just mentioning their names? Probably, then they will stop because of the shame they will receive from their neighbours. I emphasise that at times, we should ignore people who want to politick on the Floor of this House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, I thank the good hon. Member for Chama South. there are rules and regulations in this country and going by the provisions the provisions on human rights, we will not be in a position to publicise a list of those who have been involved in scamming members of the public but, obviously, the court records are public documents. Right now, the law is in place pertaining to freedom of information, and members of the public can access the information, and have knowledge as to who is scamming them, especially those who have been convicted.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I am glad that the hon. Minister has mentioned that he is collaborating with his counterpart, the hon. Minister of Technology and Science, who has just walked into the House.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) is a critical institution in so far as managing or curbing cybercrimes and scamming, in this case. Last week, the ZICTA Chief Executive Officer (CEO) resigned citing interference from the board. We are left wondering as to whether that very important institution will rise to the occasion in protecting us from scammers. Could we, therefore, attribute this failure to manage the problem of cyber crimes or scammers to what the ZICTA chief cited as interference from the board, which made him fail to perform or make the institution fail to perform. Can we be assured that the institution is going to manage the issue of scammers arising from the revelation of interference from the board?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, a Chief Executive of the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) is not ZICTA. However, ZICTA is an institution, with officers under it with specific assignments. Therefore, if the Chief Executive resigns, it does not mean that the whole institution will halt.

Madam Speaker, I do not doubt that, as the situation is currently occurring. ZICTA is functioning well without the Chief Executive who resigned. I have no doubt that my hon. Colleague, the Minister of Technology and Science, has already made provisions for a new Chief Executive Officer to take over. The other issues are speculative; they are hearsay, so I would not want to respond.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I must state that I am one of the people who have been scammed due to my kindness. There have been requests for fake funerals, and I have contributed money. My Facebook page has been duplicated, and some unsuspecting members of my constituency and the general public have been scammed too.

Madam Speaker, following the answers by the hon. Minister and his having expressed dissatisfaction with the equipment currently being used to track scammers, and given that we are considering the Budget, I want to know if the ministry has put provisions in the Budget for purchasing advanced technology and equipment to be able to nab criminals who do not deserve to be in our society.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, it would be unprocedural on my part to start discussing the contents of the Budget, which is not yet before the House. Let us wait until the Budget is presented and then we will discuss whether there is such a provision in it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I will allow two more hon. Members to ask questions; namely, the hon. Members for Lufubu and Kamfinsa constituencies.

Hon. Member for Lufubu, you may proceed.

Mr Kolala (Lufubu): Madam Speaker, laws have changed over time, but these crimes continue to increase. Would it not be prudent to look at the human aspect; the officers involved in organisations mandated to deal with those crimes? Does the hon. Minister not think that the work attitude and the capacity of the officers, about which we have not got so much in his Ministerial Statement, could be where the root cause can be dealt with?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, in my Ministerial Statement, I mentioned that the ministry is going to a new agency to deal with cyber crimes. The new agency will ensure that we recruit competent, and qualified staff to address these issues. That matter is being taken care of.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, thank you most sincerely for the opportunity to ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security a follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Member of Parliament of Mandevu was raising the issue of funding to the ministry and, consequently, to the agencies that are supposed to fight this vice, the hon. Minister said that he could not confirm because the Budget was not before this august House.

Madam Speaker, the budgeting cycle demands that ministries submit what they need to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. I am sure that the ministry requested funding to support various activities it is undertaking. My question, which is similar to the question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu, is on whether the ministry made provisions for skills and tools that officers need to acquire and tools to fight the vice. Clearly, we are all acknowledging that we do not have the skills to fight this vice. I think, that was his question and I request that the hon. Minister responds to that specific issue, considering that the budgeting cycle demands that he makes submissions to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I will repeat the answer I gave to my hon. Colleague, the Member of Parliament for Mandevu.

Madam Speaker, I said that it would be unprocedural for me to start discussing the contents of the Budget, which is under consideration by your various Committees. Those are the rules of this House.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: This is what I am saying. I did not say that we did not provide or we are going to provide. However, the Budget is before the House, so, I cannot start discussing it before you authorise me to do so.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Madam First Deputy Speaker: By prior arrangement, we will start with Question 31 and thereafter, go back to the order of the questions.

PLANS TO BAN SCRAP METAL DEALERS FROM DEALING IN COPPER

31. Mr Charles Mulenga (Kwacha) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

whether the Government has any plans to ban scrap metal dealers from dealing in copper in order to avert vandalism of ZESCO Limited installations and thefts from copper mining companies;
if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Chipoka Mulenga): Madam Speaker, I will answer the questions as they come.

Madam Speaker, the Statutory Instrument No. 102 of 2011 of the Control of Goods Act prohibited the exportation of scrap mental. This was done in order to encourage growth of this industry in the country.

Madam Speaker, the scrap metal sub-sector contributes to the growth of the manufacturing industry in Zambia. It is a major source of raw materials for the foundries industries in Zambia. The sub-sector also helps in promoting the recycling of scrap metals, and products manufactured using the recycled scrap metal and have a huge demand not just within Zambia, but even outside the country. These products include propellers, valves, pipes and fittings, billets and castings, which are used by both mining and manufacturing firms. Hence, banning scrap metal dealers will decrease growth of the industry in that small-scale traders, who are the majority will be negatively affected.

Madam Speaker, rather than imposing a direct ban on scrap metal, trading due to significant concerns about vandalism, the Government, through ZESCO Limited, is shifting from using copper electricity service cables to aluminium cables to curb acts of vandalism and theft on its infrastructure because aluminium has less value to the scrap metal dealers. Further, the Government has increased security through introduction of monopole towers, which are less prone to vandalism due to their structural design.

Madam Speaker, as stated above, the Government is focusing on strengthening regulatory frameworks by continuous engagement with the stakeholders to ensure dealers have designated locations, maintain accurate records, and require police reports for scrap metal consignments.

Madam Speaker, as stated above, the Government is prioritising regulatory reforms to promote sustainable local trading of scrap mental over bans. The rationale is to maintain an enabling environment for both the prevention of vandalism and support to local industries, particularly foundries that rely on scrap metal. A total ban could disrupt the supply of critical raw materials to local manufacturers. Therefore, the Government is working towards better regulation, and monitoring rather than prohibition. Additionally, the Government will continue prioritising the promotion of value addition in the scrap metal sub-sector by ensuring the use of local scrap metals in the production of steel. This is evidenced by the Government’s attraction of investment commitment, by Powerful Diligent Veracious Metals (PDV Metals) Zambia Limited Steel Plant, which is now setting up in the Lusaka South Multi-Facility Economic Zone (MTEF) and scheduled to open this year. It has an installed capacity of 300,000 metric tonnes per annum of high-quality steel rebar. An initial investment of US$100 million has been set aside to create 500 direct jobs for our local citizens. When fully operational, the plant will reduce the level of vandalism and theft of scrap metals because the company will require the supplier to produce rules of origin and documents for raw material supplied.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Charles Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his response, which is quite honest. Of course, the response is an indication that the Government does not have plans to ban copper scrap business.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is saying that the Government cannot ban the scrap metal business for now but, in the meantime, we are seeing ZESCO Limited, installations being vandalised almost every other week, especially in my constituency, Kwacha. We have had many such cases. This is a scenario in which ZESCO Limited continues to lose huge sums of money through replacement of equipment. Therefore, what immediate solutions is the Government considering putting in place to prevent the utility company, ZESCO Limited, from continuing to lose colossal amounts of money through high levels of vandalism of its installations?

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I answered the question in my statement by saying that the immediate measures we are putting in place are to replace copper wire installations, with aluminium wire ones. I am equally a Member of Parliament on the Copperbelt, where the copper processing is very much happening. Deliberately, I have engaged the Managing Director (MD) for ZESCO Limited, Mr Mapani, who even went to Chingola to do an on-the-spot investigation. Further, when it was doing routine checks, maintenance and replacement, ZESSCO Limited was using aluminium as opposed to copper. Aluminium does not attract vandalism as compared to copper. This is a deliberate Government plan.

Madam Speaker, the reason the Government is not banning the scrap metal business is that if there is a vice, for instance, an escalation of road accidents, we cannot ban the use of cars because there are accidents. We see people consuming Doom poison, which is meant for mosquitoes, to take their lives. We cannot ban the sale of Doom poison, but we should enhance the regulatory framework or education of the public on how best to use cars on the roads, respect the rules and regulations and use the Doom product for what it is meant for. Therefore, we will continue to implement regulatory frameworks to support the sub-sector to maintain the right cables, which are aluminium ones.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I have read the question that was prepared by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kwacha. I am also paying attention to the hon. Minister’s responses, but I have noticed that there is something that has not been clarified. What has not been clarified is my follow-up question to the hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kwacha is saying that out of the many items that are involved in scrap metal dealing, there is one metal called copper, which is a key aspect. Unfortunately, causes people to be involved in vandalism. So, the hon. Member’s question is: Out of the many items that are involved in the scrap metal business, when the Government isolates copper, is it going to prohibit those who are involved in scrap metal dealing to also be involved in scrap metal copper, this is because there is also scrap metal copper. I think, that was his question. It is not about scrap metal dealing. In scrap metal dealing, there is a Statutory Instrument (SI) that does not allow the Government to prevent anyone from transacting. However, as far as copper is concerned, is the Government also prohibiting copper as a specific metal? I think, that was the hon. Members question. The hon. Minister has not answered that specific question.

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Madam Speaker, my response and statement were very clear about foundries using copper as a raw material in manufacturing various equipment that is used in the mining industry. However, I appreciate the question by the hon. Member, away from the statement that I gave.

Madam Speaker, it would be amiss for the Government to prohibit or ban the dealing of scrap metal copper. Scrap metal copper is scrap which is used in value addition for use in different industrial applications. Just because there are thieves who have engaged in stealing copper installations, we will not punish the reasonable traders in the facility. It is the same as in the example I gave just because we have reckless road users, we will not ban the use of cars. We will continue to allow the use of scrap metal in foundries that are used to the trade. However, the policy that the Government is putting in place is for the traders in scrap metal to have rules of origin. Currently, what has been happening is that anybody can take copper to a scrap metal dealer, who will smelt it and use it. However, once we put in place rules of origin, like we are developing as a Government, all will be well.

Madam Speaker, right now, a 300,000 metric tonnes plant, the first of its kind, called PDV Metals-Zambia Limited Steel Plant, is now setting up in the Lusaka South MTEF. When trading with it, it will demand the rules of origin of the copper. If one does not supply them with the rules of origin certificate, it will raise an alarm and the police will be on the supplier. Those are the policies that the Government is putting in place. It will not ban just because there are other thieves on the streets.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, the mining industry has always been a primary source of scrap on the Copperbelt, but what has happened now is that most mines have made it very difficult for Zambians to have access to the scrap. Hence, the citizens or scrap dealers are now rushing to vandalism to have the scrap to sell. Is the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry in a position to state whether the Government is considering coming up with a Statutory Instrument (SI) to prohibit foreigners from being directly involved in the supply of scrap metal?

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Madam Speaker, we do not need an SI to prohibit foreign nationals from accessing the same platforms as the locals.

Madam Speaker, under my ministry, there is what we call the Local Content Policy. There is also a presidential directive on positive discrimination. Even as hon. Members of Parliament in this House, we have the responsibility to lobby on behalf of our small and medium enterprises (SMEs) in our mining industries and manufacturing sectors for their priority. The presidential directive of positive discrimination is to get our SMEs to have first access to business opportunities before even foreign nationals or other would-be investors come in to have access. So, the hon. Member has a responsibility to lobby on behalf of his constituents as opposed to accusing the Government of not providing that facility.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Speaker, it is, indeed, good to note that the hon. Minister, in his statement, said that ZESCO Limited is now moving from using copper cables to aluminium. At the moment, all ZESCO Limited conductors, which are the wires people see on the poles countrywide, are aluminium. The problem is on the ZESCO Limited cables buried underground and the service cables. Those are being stolen on a daily basis, especially now, in the wake of load-shedding. When ZESCO Limited switches off power, vendors go and start cutting the service cables. So, the hon. Minister should push that as early as tomorrow or next year, in the 2025 Budget, we start buying aluminium service cables and aluminium underground cables, and then the Government will cure the problem of scrap copper.

My question, Madam Speaker, now, is: Do we have traders who are licensed to deal just in scrap copper?

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Madam Speaker, thank you for the hon. Member’s advice and guidance on the need for ZESCO Limited to start as soon as yesterday, replacing the cables.

Madam Speaker, we cannot start replacing those cables as soon as yesterday. We can only replace them when there is damage or when they are too worn out to service the public. We need to rationalise the resources we have. However, the hon. Member’s comment and advice are duly noted. In the event of replacement, we will use the aluminium cables.

Madam Speaker, as to whether we have people who are just limited to what they are dealing with, there is a general trading licence for scrap metal, but it is up to the companies where they are accessing the scrap metal, which limits them based on what they have. I can give an example of Lumwana Copper Mine (LCM); it advertises the scrap metal it has. For instance, right now, they are not giving scrap metal copper. They are only giving other things. If you do not have a rule of origin certificate or you have it indicating LCM, then it must be something fishy. So, the Government provides a general certificate for dealing with scrap metal. If there is a provision for a limited number, I am yet to be informed and will be guided otherwise.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kolala (Lufubu): Madam Speaker, the good thing is that the question was specifically on copper scrap. When you look at Zambia, the company that has more copper is ZESCO Limited. So, I think that even when a ban is put in place, not many companies would be affected. Why is it so difficult to deal with one? Right now, if you were to compare how much scrap copper the industry is bringing in with what ZESCO Limited is losing, which the Government is spending money on, you might find that the cost is too much compared to how much money the industry is bringing in.

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I need to stress this point: across the country, there is scrap copper. If I go and ban the sale of scrap copper because of those who are vandalising installations of copper under the pretext of scrap, what will happen to the scrap copper that we have? Where would we dispose of it at the expense of generating value from it?

Madam Speaker, as hon. Members of Parliament, and as elected leaders, we need to take the initiative, inform our constituents on the need to maintain the lane of not being thieves, and maintain the lane of being decent citizens. Scrap metal is there, and it has to be subjected to value addition, which creates decent jobs, especially for small and medium enterprises (SMEs).

Madam Speaker, the Government put regulations in place. In the recent past, there was no provision for a certificate of the rule of origin. Anybody could take what was legitimate and smelt it. However, we are now putting in place policies that will prohibit thieves from cutting cables, and prohibit scrupulous foundry operators from smelting the copper. ZESCO Limited is also on the path of replacing the use of copper cables. That is how far we can go. We cannot ban the use of scrap copper.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Christopher Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I am looking at a cost analysis of the company replacing copper cables laid underground with aluminium. We are looking at it from a cross section; it is the entire country. One of the hon. Members stated the fact that the copper cables are all over the country. If we were to allow the company to replace copper cables with aluminium ones countrywide, how feasible would t6hat be and at what cost to the utility company, which is grappling with many issues to maintain its operations?

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I like the question that has come from the hon. Member, which is in pure contrast to the question that came from the hon. Member for Bahati, who asked me to engage ZESCO Limited to replace cables as soon as yesterday. The hon. Member for Kwacha is saying it is too expensive. In my statement, I clearly said that we will replace the cables when their lifespan is over or maybe, when they are vandalised. We will not replace the functional cables. We do not have the resources to go and just start replacing them because there is a thief out there. Once their lifespan has been exhausted or when there is a vandalism act that has taken place, then, we will move in to replace them, as we have done in Chingola, where we are replacing them with aluminium cables.

Madam Speaker, Chingola is a hub of copper smelting. Currently, there are very few cases of copper cable vandalism. Why? It is because ZESCO Limited has proactively responded by coming and supporting us replacing cables with aluminium ones. So, it will only be done when the need arises.

I thank you. Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The last hon. Member to ask a question is the hon. Member for Kantanshi.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I think, we have heard from everybody who has spoken that, indeed, there is a very huge concern. I want to move away from the copper cables that the hon. Minister has talked about to transformers. Right now, he is aware that there is a huge syndicate, and I hope that the hon. Minister of Energy will take note of this. There is a huge syndicate that every time there is load shedding transformers are being brought down specifically to drain the oil or remove the copper wiring. What are some of the immediate actions being taken? I know the hon. Minister has talked about the rules of origin, but for the appetite to continue growing at the rate at which it is growing is alarming.

Madam Speaker, I must make mention that I expect many more problems when power starts to get restored to the hours that have been announced because transformers are being stolen left, right and center. What are some of the things the hon. Minister is going to do, beyond the issue of place of origin, so that he combats this problem, because it is really going to get out of hand, especially given that it provides good and immediate cash for the suppliers of the stolen products?

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: I thank you, Madam Speaker, and the hon. Member for Kantanshi Constituency for that question. Indeed, there are two components that are sought after in the transformers; the oil and the copper. I think that this is the point of the discussion where we need to find safeguard measures which are deterrent, probably, a technical solution that should deter people from climbing up the transfer to siphon materials. I will take up his concern and engage the technical teams so that we can find a common solution for prohibiting vandalism of transformers.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Andeleki: On a point of Order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me, on behalf of the people of Katombola, an opportunity to raise a point of order arising from the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016, pursuant to the provisions of Article 72, Sub-Article 2(c), which deals with the occurrence of a vacancy in the office of a Member of Parliament.

Madam Speaker, I would like you to make a ruling on three points. The first point is that on 20^th June, 2024, the hon. Member for Petauke Central, Hon. J. E. Banda, who was charged with the offense of aggravated robbery and attempted murder, did disappear from Chipata Central Hospital to the amazement of the country and the international community. Since then, which is literally four months ago, the hon. Member has not appeared before this honourable House. I would like you to make a ruling as to whether Hon. J. E. Banda is a hon. Member within the definition of the provisions of Section 2 of the National Assembly, Powers and Privileges Act.

Madam Speaker, the second issue arises from Hon. Nixon Chilangwa, who then was Member of Parliament for Katombola.

Laughter

Mr Andeleki: Oh, it is not Katombola.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, on 23^rd July, 2024, Hon. Nixon Chilangwa, Member of Parliament for Kawambwa Central, was sentenced to five years imprisonment with hard labour, for malicious damage of property, and he is currently serving a jail sentence.

Madam Speaker, we have a precedent that has been set by this august House relating to a convicted Member of Parliament who is serving a sentence, and since 7^th July, 2024, Hon. Nixon Chilangwa has been serving a jail sentence in prison.

Madam Speaker, we are guided by the ruling that was delivered –

Interruptions

Ms Nyirenda rose.

You are not a Presiding Officer!

Mr Kapyanga interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mpika!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, can we have order. Whether you agree or not, I think that there are rules that we are supposed to follow. Just like he has risen on a point of order, if you have an issue, you can equally rise on one at an appropriate time rather than standing up and shouting like that.

Hon. Member for Katombola, if the matter is in court, please, refrain from it and just go specifically to the aspects that are outside the courts so that I make a ruling.

Hon. Member: He is a lawyer.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I am amicus curiae; meaning, a friend of the court.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Andeleki: I speak the law.

Madam Speaker, May I be protected to enable me to raise a point of order.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member for Katombola, I have given you the floor but, please, be brief.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I take note, and I am aware of which laws are contemptuous and prejudicial because I am one of them. I was raising the issue relating to the hon. Member for Kawambwa, Mr Nixon Chilangwa, who was sent on a custodial sentence on 23^rd July, 2024. Since then, he has not appeared before this august House, and I would like you to pronounce yourself on the status of the hon. Member, as to whether he is a Member within the definition of Section 2 of the National Assembly, Powers and Privileges Act. I am guiding you to also consider the precedent that was set by the former Speaker of the National Assembly, Hon. Dr. Patrick Matibini, SC., in his ruling dated 7^th March, 2018, when he pronounced himself on the case related to Keith Mukata, then Member of Parliament for Chilanga, in which I quote him saying:

“… following his conviction, the seat fell vacant.”

Madam Speaker, the issue of whether there is an appeal was dealt with by the then Rt. Hon. Speaker. Therefore, I would like you to pronounce yourself as to whether an appeal amounts to a stay in view of the precedent that was set by court on the 7^th March, 2018 case. We do not stay criminal cases.

Interruptions

Mr Andeleki: That is why you need to go to law school is nearby. It is nearby here, at the university.

Laughter

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I would like you to also pronounce yourself on the status of Hon. Ronald Chitotela, Member of Parliament for Pambashe, as to whether he is a hon. Member within the definitions of the provisions of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act. On that basis, and fortified by the authority I have quoted, I would like you to pronounce yourself.

I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, this is a constitutional matter. I will need time to study it so that I can come back to the House with an informed ruling.

I reserve my ruling.

Mr Simumba: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, can we make progress; I hope, it is not a point of order on the issue that has been ruled upon.

Hon. Member for Nakonde, can you resume your seat.

Hon. Member for Mpika, what is your point of order.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I equally rise on a constitutional point of order, citing Article 10 of our Republican Constitution. I quote:

“The Government shall create an economic environment which encourages individual initiative and self-reliance among the people so as to promote investment, employment and wealth”

Madam Speaker, as a person who has sworn to defend the Constitution, and fortified by this Article, I rise on a constitutional point of order.

Madam Speaker, energy is the backbone of any country’s economy. For any investment to be created, we need sufficient energy; I mean both electricity and fuel or petroleum products. The challenge the country has is that the Government has failed to provide sufficient electricity. The people Zambia are only having electricity for two hours.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: On top of that, the people of Zambia have been told by the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) that the country only has petroleum products to last for twelve days. Today, as I rise on this matter, we are only remaining with six days of having petroleum products. In view of this, businesses have closed. Small businesses and industries are closing. Shopping –

Interruptions

Ms Sefulo interjected.

Mr Kapyanga: Nawishiba iwe, wilaleta ubupuba muno (pointed at Ms Sefulo)

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Mpika, are you addressing me?

Mr Kapyanga: Yes!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Were those words meant for me, since you had –?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mpika!

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I withdraw those words and ask my hon. Colleague to respect our views in here. She should not be the one to decide what we are going to say on the Floor of the House.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mpika, –

Mr Kapyanga: That is uncalled for!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, may you resume your seat.

Mr Mapani: He has even debated his point of order!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, the rules are very clear on how to raise a point of order and how to conduct business in the House. When you are given the Floor, you are supposed to address the Speaker. However, you went about chatting. I do not know whether you were chatting insulting or talking other hon. Members. That is not allowed. Can you just withdraw the words that you used.

Mr Kapyanga: I have withdrawn the words, Madam Speaker, and I apologise to my hon. Colleague and to the House.

Madam Speaker: You may proceed with your point of order.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I was saying that small businesses have closed and continue to close. Industries and restaurants are also closing, to name, but a few. Is the Government in order, therefore, to remain …

Mr B. Mpundu: Quiet!

Mr Kapyanga: … quiet without addressing what the Constitution demands under Article 10, which is provision of an environment where investments, businesses and the economic being of our country are levelled?

Madam Speaker, I seek your very serious ruling on this matter because it affects the people of Zambia, whom this House serves.

I seek your serous ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mpika, that is an important matter, and I am sure, there is a very effective platform through which you could have raised the matter instead of asking me to make a ruling on whether the Government is out of order. There is already a Ministerial Statement that will be next week on Tuesday about the shortage of fuel in the country. Can you, please, find a better avenue or platform to bring up those matters that you have stated. I am sure that the people of Zambia would like to hear more of the feedback the Government has. That point of order, in my view, is, therefore, not admissible. Can you find a better platform to bring the matter to the House.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

BOREHOLE SINKING AND DAM CONSTRUCTION IN KATOMBOLA

24. Mr Andeleki (Katombola) asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

whether the Government has any plans to sink boreholes and construct dams in Katombola Constituency to cater for people and livestock;
if so, when the plans will be implemented;
what the estimated cost of each project is at (a); and
if there are no such plans, why?

inister of Water Development and Sanitation (Eng. Nzovu): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to sink boreholes and construct dams to cater for people and livestock in Katombola Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the plans are currently being implemented from 2023 to 2025 under the following interventions:

the Government, through the ministry, with support from the Southern Africa Development Community Groundwater Management Institute (SADC GMI), has plans to sink three commercial boreholes equipped with solar pumping systems for use by the Sihumbwa Primary School and the surrounding communities in Katombola Constituency in Kanchele Ward, as piped water schemes. So far, three boreholes have been drilled and one borehole was successful. The ministry plans to drill the remaining two boreholes;
the ministry, has plans to sink two commercial boreholes under the Drought Response Plan in 2024, and three commercial boreholes in 2025. Those will be piped water schemes equipped with solar systems; and
the ministry is currently constructing Chileya Dam in Katombola Constituency in Kanchele Ward. You may wish to note that Chileya Dam is currently at 30 per cent completion and is expected to be completed by the second quarter of 2025.

Madam Speaker, the estimated costs of each project are as follows:

the cost of the SADC GMI project is US$59,000, and involves community and stakeholder engagements, borehole sinking and drilling, and the construction and equipping of water schemes;
the cost of drilling of five commercial boreholes equipped with solar systems with an average of network of 1 km and stand-by tap will be determined after the procurement process is concluded; and
the cost of the construction of Chileya Dam is estimated at K12 million.

Madam Speaker, furthermore, the ministry, through the Southern Water and Sanitation company, is implementing the Kazungula Water Supply and Sanitation Project at a total cost of €8 million. The project is financed by Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (KFW) through the Development Bank of Southern Africa (DBSA), and the Zambian Government. It involves the construction of a new water intake approximately 3 km upstream of the bridge, the construction and installation of a 200 KW PV Solar Plant, the construction of 5.7 km 11 KVA Power Line from the treatment plant facility to the new intake, expansion of the water treatment to increase capacity, rehabilitation and extension of the water distribution pipes, and construction of water reservoirs and storage facilities.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his response. My question has to do with the remaining two commercial boreholes. Where are they going to be located?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, the locations will be determined in consultation with the hon. Member of Parliament as soon as the procurement process is finalised. There are a number of points in Katombola and the ministry will get advice from the hon. Member on his priority areas.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, may I know how many contractors the hon. Minister has engaged to ensure that these projects are completed within the stipulated period?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, countrywide there are many contractors, but they will only be two contractors for the five commercial boreholes in Katombola.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, is the Southern Water and Sanitation Company Limited (SWSC) able to sink commercial boreholes in Katombola and other mid-areas such as Mbabala township in Mbabala Constituency that are suffering from having no water?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, let me inform the House that procurement through water utilities is proving very efficient, and I can confirm that SWSC is capable of doing these works through commercial borehole drillers. Let me also confirm that we have successfully done that in Pemba Constituency, which saw the drying up of a reservoir. We drilled a commercial borehole there through SWSC. So, yes, the short version of the story is that it is very capable and it has done so before.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, the issue of water is a problem everywhere besides places like Kantanshi because I have also noticed that my hon. Colleague from Kankoyo has the same problem. I would like to know from the hon. Minister, considering that we are experiencing this water crisis and that he visited Mufulira, whether Mufulira will get a borehole similar to the one our colleagues in Katombola got. That way, the borehole will cover for the failures that Mulonga Water and Sanitation Company has continued to experience this far. Our people are struggling with the issue of water.

Mr Munir Zulu rose.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I would like to state that the hon. Member of Parliament brings out a very important question.

Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to assure all the hon. Members of Parliament that the Government has come up with various interventions to mitigate the water stress in the country. One of the ways is through commercial utilities in various districts and provinces. There is a budget line for emergency works in all provinces under the water utilities.

Madam Speaker, you may be interested to note that Mulonga Water Supply and Sanitation Company Limited has isolated very urgent issues and that the Government is attending to them. Further, there are several interventions we are making; it is not only the commercial boreholes we are drilling in those areas. For example, on the Copperbelt Province, where the hon. Member comes from, the Government is trying to accelerate the completion of projects under integrated water supply, which will see a lot of water stress go down on the Copperbelt Province, the Western Province, Muchinga Province and the Northern Province. These are areas where the Government has spent several millions of Dollars, but there is no water coming out. So, there were many issues surrounding those projects, which have since been resolved. Moving forward, the Government will soon be commissioning many of those projects.

Madam Speaker, I would like to engage the hon. Member with regard to Shikabeta so that I can get more details and see how we can move forward.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take the last two questions from the hon. Members for Kankoyo and Mitete.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Lumezi, you have just walked in, what is the issue?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I did not have a copy of the Constitution in my hands. That is why I stepped out to look for one so that I could raise a point of order.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, as we talk about the Constitution, let us keep in mind that the points of order that we are raising should have an effect or must have something to do with what is happening in the House, and have an effect on the proceedings, and not just bring up any constitutional issues, that are not related to the proceedings of the House.

Interruptions

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you for the guidance. Ordinarily, I would have raised this point of order on Her Honour the Vice-President, being the Leader of Government Business in the House, but I can see that she is not in the House. Therefore, I raise it on the Government Chief Whip, pursuant to Part I of the Supremacy of the Constitution, read together with Article 77(1) of the Constitution, which reads in Clause 1: , subject to this Article and Article 78, that:

“Subject to this Article and Article 78. The National Assembly shall regulate its own procedure and make Standing Orders for the conduct of its Business.”

Madam Speaker, the Constitution uses the word ‘shall’.

Madam Speaker, you may have taken judicial notice that, in the past two weeks, Parliament did not regulate its rules, which affected the Business of the House.

Madam Speaker, the Constitution uses the word ‘shall’ and if you read Part I - Supremacy of the Constitution, in Article 1(1), it says:

“This constitution is the supreme law of the Republic of Zambia and any other written law, customary law and customary practice that is inconsistent with its provision is void to the extent of the inconsistency.”

Mr B. Mpundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, if this House cannot regulate its rules and we do not conduct Parliamentary Business for two weeks, and then, rely on the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, which are inconsistent with the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, this House is in breach of the Supreme Law of the land.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the Government Chief Whip cannot be seated there knowing that the House has breached the Constitution of the land.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious indulgence.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, as far as I am concerned, Parliament came up with the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, do you not want me to make the ruling?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, are you challenging the Speaker?

Mr B. Mpundu: No.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You are challenging the Speaker. I wanted to make a ruling.

My ruling is that the House did not breach the Constitution at all. We have our Standing Orders that were approved in April 2024, and all the processes that were required to revise the Standing Orders were followed. We had hon. Members from the Patriotic Front (PF), Independent hon. Members, and hon. Members from the Ruling Party. So, I see nothing over which the House is not in order. This House is 100 per cent in order and is following its Standing Orders.

That is my ruling.

Shall we make progress. The last member to ask a question will be the hon. Member for Kankoyo.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, despite the drought, which has affected us heavily in water supply, let me commend the hon. Minister for the programmes he has put in place to ensure that Zambians do not completely run out of water. One of the projects I thank him for is the rehabilitation of 777 dams across the country. In Mufulira, three dams will be rehabilitated.

Mr B. Mpundu: Question!

Mr Mabeta: However, –

Iwe, ulepanga icongo, Binwell. Ulimukulu sana.

Madam Speaker, I am being distracted this side.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, a Member shall not distract or disturb a Member on the Floor. Can we give him the chance to ask his question.

Hon. Member for Kankoyo, please, proceed with your question. We are also looking at time.

Mr B. Mpundu: Noti ifyakulanda pali gang.

Mr Mabeta: Nindandapo ati gang? Belakubepa!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, the Hon. Member for Kankoyo –

Mr Mabeta: Madam Speaker, may I be protected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kankoyo resume your seat.

Hon. Members on my left, can we, please, give respect this House. People are listening to the proceedings of this House. Can we, please, behave as hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Member for Kankoyo, please, go straight to your question.

Mr Mabeta: Madam Speaker, this Government has embarked on the rehabilitation of 777 dams as a way of mitigating challenges of the drought. Mufulira has been given three dams to be rehabilitated. However, I want to know from the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation the scope of the works that will be done so that as Members of Parliament, we will be able to provided oversight on the works being done and our people can get value for money from the works being done.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, indeed, we are rehabilitating 770 dams across the length and breadth of the country. This is to ensure that we have early recovery and build resilience, given the punishing drought we experienced this year. The scopes of works differ from dam to dam. However, these are basically maintenance works. Most of the dams in the country among the 77 dams are earth dams. So, we do repair damage caused by erosion, for example, clear vegetation, spillways clearing as well as place ripraps mainly on the dam walls.

Madam Speaker, most of the works actually will b supervised by our Provincial Water Officers as well as the water utilities. We would want to work very closely with Members of Parliament because most of the works will be undertaken using what we are calling public works. So, our constituents will be employed to do these works so that we can give them a token and, thereafter, they can buy mealie meal for themselves, which is available in all the areas. This is the model we will use and that is the description of the works.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, allow me to give glory and thanks to God for the rainfall. It is raining, and we are happy. Our prayer is, may it continue.

Madam Speaker, since the rain season has started, what is the timeframe for the two boreholes in Katombola Constituency to be worked on?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, let me thank Hon. Mutelo for the important question and join him in thanking God, the Lord Almighty, for the good rainfall expected and, the rain that has started falling in some parts of the country.

Madam Speaker, we envisage that most of these boreholes will be drilled before the end of December, that is, mainly in November.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

INMATES SERVING SENTENCES FOR AGGRAVATED ROBBERY AS REPEAT OFFENDERS

Mr Allen Banda (Chimwemwe) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

how many inmates were serving sentences for aggravated robbery, as repeat offenders, from 2021 to 2023, year by year; and
how many deaths of inmates, resulting from violence within the correctional facilities were recorded countrywide from January 2020 to May 2024, year by year.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Madam Speaker,
in responding to the questions asked by the Hon. Member of Parliament, I wish to inform the House that between 2021 and 2023, there were a total of 590 aggravated robbery convicted inmates out of which 10 inmates were repeat offenders. The statistics year by year are as follows:

Year 2021 2022 2023 2024

Number of inmates convicted for aggravated robbery 137 191 262 590

Number recidivists (Repeat offenders) 3 1 6 10

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Correctional Service (ZCS) did not recorded any deaths of inmates as a result of violence within the correctional facilities across the country between January 2020 and May 2024.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Allen Banda: Madam Speaker, those habitual offenders or, perhaps, you can call them criminal career offenders, seem to not really, be reducing.

Madam Speaker, we now call our prisons correctional facilities, and I believe that correctional facilities should be able to rehabilitate criminals. Looking at those ten who committed the same offences, it shows that, perhaps, the programme in place is not really working well or, perhaps, the people who are administering the programme are not doing it well. Does the hon. Minister have any plans, perhaps, for further assessment to see whether the programme suits our situation in Zambia?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, as you may have noted, the number of recidivists is low compared to the number of those convicted year by year from 2021 to 2023. There are various programmes which have put in place to ensure there is no recidivism when convicts are released. We have a budget line now with which we are encouraging ex-convicts, when they are released into the community, to form co-operatives with others, and we fund than. We are also training them when they are in our facility in various skills. We have noted that the skills which they obtained from our facilities have been very useful to them when they are released. The programme is working but, obviously, there are others who, even if you train them, they will not reform. However, our intention is not to punish, but to reform convicts.

Mr Allen Banda: Madam Speaker, on the second point, which the hon. Minister said there were no deaths, unfortunately, there was one person from Chimwemwe whose child was in prison and he was beaten to death. However, I do not believe that the prison officials picked that up. The question is: If that one death was not recorded, obviously, there are others that are not brought before the hon. Minister. Does the hon. Minister have any intentions of taking steps to double-check whether his –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours

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[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Allen Banda: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was about to ask a question, but I will just rephrase it because the thought that I had then has just escaped my mind.

Usually, deaths that happen in prison are concealed by the prisoners, themselves because they are the causers. Does the hon. Minister have intentions of putting up security cameras in prisons just to make sure that whatever happens there, especially where violence and where death concerned, are captured?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I would like to request my hon. Colleague that if he has a specific issue that he would like to bring to my attention for investigation, I am available. Otherwise, it will be difficult for me to follow up.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

FERTILISER ALLOCATED TO LUANO DURING 2023/2024 FARMING SEASON

26. Mr Chisopa (Mkushi South) asked the Minister of Agriculture:

how many bags of the following fertilisers were allocated to Luano District during the 2023/2024 Farming Season under the Famer Input Support Programme (FISP)

Urea; and
D-compound;

how many elligible beneficiaries under FISP there were in the district as of March 2024;

how many beneficiaries were given inputs during the same farming season; and

how many bags of fertiliser were given to each farmer?

Eng. Nzovu on behalf of (the Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo)): Madam Speaker, Luano District was allocated fertiliser under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) for the 2023/2024 Farming Season as follows:

a.260,145 x 50 kg bags of urea

26,0145 x 50 kg bags of D-compound

Madam Speaker, Luano District had 8,715 eligible beneficiaries who were allocated packs for the 2023/2024 Farming Season.

Madam Speaker, as of March 2024, Luano District had 8,715 eligible beneficiaries under FISP.

Madam Speaker, each farmer was allocated six bags of fertiliser, that is, 3 x 50 kg bags of D-compound and 3 x 50 kg bags of Urea.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, the farmers in Luano used to receive eight bags each. Further, when the United Party for National Development (UPND) was campaigning, it promised the farmers that it would be giving them more than eight bags of fertiliser. When is the Government going to start giving farmers the fertiliser that was promised to them?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, as an hon. Member from a farming community, everybody has aspirations. As far as the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is concerned, farmers are being given what was promised to them. We can only thank the people of Luano for farming very well.

Madam Speaker, thank you.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Madam Speaker, we are all interested to know from the hon. Minister how much fertiliser has been taken to our constituencies and districts. This time, we are talking about the situation in our hon. Member’s constituency. Is it possible for the hon. Minister to come up with a schedule of how the Government has distributed inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme per province or district so that we do not question him on how many bags of fertiliser he has taken to a particular area?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, the question was quite specific. However, I appreciate the hon. Member’s request. I can assure him that my ministry will come up with a very comprehensive list so that all hon. Members are well-informed. I think that is a very good suggestion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, we have just been told that some of our provinces were receiving eight bags of fertiliser per farmer while we, in Dundumwezi, were receiving two bags. This time, we are receiving six bags of fertiliser plus seed. I would like to know the method the New Dawn Government used to ensure that every individual, in all provinces, gets, at least, six bags of fertiliser plus enough seed.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, the question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi is a very important one.

Madam Speaker, this Government stands on ensuring that there is equity and equal distribution of the resources in the nation. Let us not look very far. For instance, when we look at the way the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is being allocated and distributed, we see that it is being done equally across all the constituencies. There is no discrimination at all. It does not matter whether the constituency belongs to the United Party for National Development (UPND), the Patriotic Front (PF) or United Kwacha Alliance (UKA). It does not matter whose it is, all are given an equal share. This also applies to FISP. There will be no province or region that will be discriminated against. Everybody will be given an equal share. Indeed, when certain numbers are mentioned, others will say eight while other will say they were receiving six or five, but those days are gone. I can assure you that the UPND Government will ensure that every citizen is treated equally.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, 8,715 beneficiaries is an old number because those farmers who have been there since 2018. When the farmers received six bags of fertiliser, they used to be given what we used to called legume. If one got a 10 kg of groundnuts, each farmer used to receive an extra two bags of fertiliser. If one received soya beans, each farmer used to receive four extra bags of fertiliser. Where has the hon. Minister taken the legume that farmers used to receive?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Chisopa for that important question, but, again, the question borders on equal distribution of resources. The hon. Member will notice that the standard pack has 3 x 50 kg D-Compond, 3 x 50 kg Urea, 1 x 10 kg maize and a legume.

Madam Speaker, on the question of where we have taken the inputs, I wish to state that we have not taken them anywhere. Actually, we have been giving them to the people of Zambia. The only difference is that, now, we are doing it equitably and methodically. For us, it may not be the same beneficiaries. Remember that we also need to graduate farmers. We have also cleaned up the system because there were many ghost recipients; people who were not supposed to have been receiving inputs.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I will take the last two questions from the hon. Member for Mbabala and the hon. Member for Lundazi.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, equity demands that those who have less are brought to the same level with those who have more. As confirmed by our brother, Hon. Chisopa, some farmers were getting eight bags of fertiliser while others were getting two bags. What is the Government’s plan to ensure that Mbabala Constituency and others that were getting two bags of fertiliser brought to the same level of eight bags to prove the equity angle, as argued in this statement?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, indeed, equity demands that everyone is treated the same, but I also want to add that the taste of the pudding is in the eating. When one goes the length and breadth of the country, one finds that everybody is receiving the same quantity of inputs. So, we will continue giving our people the same number of inputs. We still continue with equity.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, before I ask my question, I need your protection from Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, SC., who has questioned why the people of Lundazi should support the people of Mkushi South.

Laughter

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to write this note and tell me to not support my team?

Laughter

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, now, let me come to the follow-up question that I have for the hon. Minister. The New Dawn Government is very transparent, as it is being said. It indicated the names and the numbers of the health workers, those it is employing in the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, and in the Ministry of Education. However, there is a problem on the issue of distribution of inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). What is so difficult about the Government publishing the names of the beneficiaries so that it cuts off some of the people who are stealing the inputs for farmers, as that borders on the food security of this nation?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I was hesitant to rise and answer that question because I am not sure whether you have ruled on the point of order on this very powerful family in the House.

Laughter

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, a similar question was asked and I indicated that we would come back to the House when the substantive hon. Minister comes back.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, allow me to call upon the hon. Member for Kantanshi, who has a very burning question.

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence on this matter.

Madam Speaker, we have got back into the farming season with the same problems we had the previous farming season on the issues of input distribution; who is the beneficiary and who is not. I just want the hon. Minister to confirm something, since the Government works a multi-sectoral approach. Is it true that an audit has been done on the farmers under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), that it has been discovered that 50 per cent of the beneficiaries are not even supposed to be eligible and further, that the other 50 per cent cannot even be traced because their National Registration Card (NRC) numbers do not correspond to what is existing in the system. If that is the case, why is the Government scared to implement what it has already discovered so that the programme is cleansed once and for all? If we continue on this path, input distribution will remain political, and it will be tossed from the party on the left to the party on the right while the farmers are the people who are going to suffer from the misinformation. So, would he clarify if it is true that the Government has taken those steps.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member brings a very important question on the Floor of the House, if you look at how methodically this Government has been governing the country by encouraging audits everywhere and ensuring that there is transparency, not only in the distribution of inputs, but in the general management of the country, you will see that it is good. The hon. Member is right to say that several audits are currently going on; but it might be premature for me to divulge the details of that audit. So, at an appropriate time, we will come back and inform the House.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

NUMBER OF PATIENTS REFERRED TO THE UNIVERSITY TEACHING HOSPITAL FROM THE EASTERN PROVINCE

27. Mr P. Phiri (Mkaika) asked the Minister of Health:

how many patients were referred to the University Teaching Hospital in Lusaka from the Eastern Province from January 2020 to April 2024, year by year;
whether the Government has any plans to construct a cancer disease hospital in the Eastern Province;
if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Health (Mr Muchima): Madam Speaker, the numbers of patients referred to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) from Eastern Province are as follows:

Year Number

January to December 2020 289

2021 434

2022 409

2023 402

January to April 2024 359

Total 1,893

Madam Speaker, 1893 patients were referred from the Eastern Province in the period under review.

Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct cancer disease hospitals in each province, including the Eastern Province, in line with the Government policy to decentralising the management of cancer diseases by constructing a cancer diseases hospital or centre in each province.

Madam Speaker, the construction of cancer disease hospitals in each province is being done in a phased manner due to limited fiscal space. Currently, the focus of the Government is completion of renovations at the University Teaching Hospitals (UTHs) Cancer Disease Hospital and the construction of Ndola and Livingstone cancer hospitals. As such, the construction of the remaining cancer disease hospitals in the Eastern Province and other provinces will follow, subject to availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, part (d) of the question falls off, as the Government has the plans.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr P. Phiri: Madam Speaker, looking at the numbers the hon. Minister has provided, indeed, they are big every year, hospitals refer patients to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), which is a costly programme. The hon. Minister mentioned that the Government has plans to start constructing cancer hospitals and that the projects will commence when funds are available.

Madam Speaker, I would like to know why the Government is not prioritising those programmes to reduce the expenditure by constructing hospitals, or, maybe upgrading, the existing ones. There is Kalindawalo Hospital and Saint Francis Hospital. Why not upgrade them so we do not have to be ferrying patients? Many of our people have died because of transferring of patients. I know that the hon. Minister is doing well in his ministry, but why can he not prioritise the construction of those hospitals?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, it is, indeed, the wish of the Government to put up cancer hospitals or centres. However, as he already knows it is not a cheap project to carry out. Right now, renovations are going on in Lusaka and Livingstone. The Government has not yet awarded a contract for the construction of the Livingstone one, for the Ndola one, I think, it will be completed by January. After that, the Government will be looking at other areas to go to. It is not cheap. The envelope is quite limited, and that is why we are talking about agriculture, education, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and so on and so forth. We cannot put all the money into the cancer hospital projects. What will happen to this load-shedding and other issues if we did?

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Muchima: It is the same envelope. However, when the situation improves, why not? The Government wants to save the people of Zambia from dying from such diseases. It cannot take them to India and wherever else because it does not have resources. That is the priority of the Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I agree with the hon. Minister that the resource envelope might not be enough for us to start constructing other hospitals. However, if you check, we are asking about the referrals from the Eastern Province to Lusaka. The hon. Minister may agree that the Eastern Province is one of the most populous provinces in our country and as such, a good number of people there will be referred to Lusaka, which will be a drain on the Government.

Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister not think that it will be cheaper for him to upgrade hospitals like Saint Francis or Kalindawalo to the same level as the University Teaching Hospitals (UTHs) or Levy Mwanawasa University Teaching Hospital (LMUTH)? I do not know how he grades them. If you look at the numbers the hon. Minister gave, they are the same for the Eastern and Copperbelt provinces.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, upgrading hospitals depends on the availability of finances. Not all cancer cases are treated at the UTH, and other places. The steps start from the province, itself where diagnosis and minor preliminaries are done before the patients are transferred to Lusaka.

Madam Speaker, it is a wish of the Government for provinces, especially the Eastern Province, modern hospitals with all the equipment, such as Mambwe Hospital, which was commissioned recently. So, what is needed is to buy more equipment and have specialists. The limitation is the resource envelope. It is our desire that that is done as quickly as possible when funds are available.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is supporting this sector very much. This is what the Government means when it says that every province desires to have a cancer hospital.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr P. Phiri: Madam Speaker, I would like to know how much money the Government is spending on evacuating patients to India or the same treatment.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, it is not uniform; it depends, when we talk about the tickets and accommodation. However, even on that matter, we also need to come back because the question was specific. However, the cost depends on how many days the treatment takes, the type of disease and the specialist’s advice on the treatment the patient is to receive. That is what can determine the costs.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, cancer is a terminal disease that really drains the finances and emotions of the families that take care of the patients.

Madam Speaker, the request from the hon. Member of Parliament is to have one hospital, out of the eighteen, I do not know if it is twenty-one constituencies, in the Eastern Province. The 2025 Budget has passed and there is no plan whatsoever to build a cancer hospital in the Eastern Province, with the number of cancer diseases surging all the time, would the hon. Minister be kind enough to consider, under the 2026 Budget, gifting the people of the Eastern Province with a cancer diseases hospital?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, firstly, cancer is terminal, but once screened and tested early, it is treatable. Secondly, there are competing needs. The Government is stressed, especially coming from a negative position to where we are today. There is already an effort to stop the evacuations to India and other countries, and saying yes. Let us see how the resource envelop will be like. It is our desire.

Madam Speaker, when we look at the Mambwe Hospital, what are needed, maybe, specialists, artificial intelligence (AI) and equipment. When those things are put in that hospital, it will be easy. We need to do that, but the problem, at the moment, is that it is not easy because it depends on the resource envelope.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, my concern is the increasing number of referrals to the Cancer Disease Hospital in Lusaka, be it from the Eastern Province, the Northern Province or elsewhere, is putting too much pressure on the facility.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that there are renovations and upgrading works that are currently taking place at the University Teaching Hospitals (UTHs). My question is: How much work has been done on the upgrading, and when do we expect the works to be completed so that the facility can begin to accommodate a good number of people?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, the works at the UTHs have advanced and equipment is going to be put in place very soon. In Ndola, by January, it will be done. On the Livingstone one, I think, a construction contract will be awarded very soon and, from there, we will advance to the next stage. It is our desire to treat and save the lives of our people.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, I thank you so much for allowing the people of Lubansenshi to ask a follow-up question. followed the hon. Minister when he was talking about providing services and how the Government is stressed financially. The people of the Eastern Province, if I heard them well, want a lasting solution to the issue to do with cancer. Taking into account that there are vulnerable people in province, to be specific, in that constituency, it is really a huge cost if patients are referred to the University Teaching Hospitals (UTHs). You also have to look at, for instance, their families. Therefore, what is the Government’s lasting solution for ensuring that the Eastern Province has a hospital?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, it is not only the people the Eastern Province. We are even lucky that the province is close to Lusaka and that patients can easily access these facilities. There are areas like Zambezi, Shangombo and many other places. At least, we should thank this Government because it has taken the positive step to start addressing this issue in areas where the population is too big. From there, it can shift one by one. Everything cannot be done in a day. A long journey starts with one step. The Government is making that effort.

Madam Speaker, what I am saying is that if resources are made available, it is a priority of this Government to attend to issues that mostly affect our people. We do not want to lose people by death because, today, it can be someone and tomorrow, it will be me, my uncle or aunty, coming all the way from Ikeleng’i, about 1,000 km away. That is a concern of the Government.

Madam Speaker, the problem is that the Government has been limited by resources. Let the resources build up. Let it find means and ways of building up resources then the work will be done. I have said that the plans are there, except that the funds are limited.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

SUSPENDED EXPLORATION AND MINING LICENCES ISSUED BEFORE AUGUST 2021

28. Mr Chala asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

when the Government will lift the suspension of the exploration and mining licenses issued before August 2021;
what the cause of the delay in lifting the suspension is; and
what the cause of the delay in issuing mining licenses to applicants in Chipili District is.

The Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development (Mr Mubanga) (on behalf of (the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe)): Madam Speaker, the Government did not suspend any exploration and mining licenses issued before August 2021.

As indicated above, there is no delay as there were no licences suspended by the Government.

Madam Speaker, as stated above, there is no delay in issuing mining licenses to applicants in Chipili District.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chala: Madam Speaker, you are aware that Chipili has a lot of manganese, but the challenge that our people are facing is that the exploration license owners, who own almost all the areas in Chipili District, whenever a co-operative or an individual wants to get a license, have to see those people in order for the exploration license holder to be given a consent letter. However, these companies are not doing that. They are refusing to give our people the consent letters. What should be done in this case, where when one finds a place, goes to the exploration license holder and asks to be given the exploration license consent so that they can apply to the ministry, but they refuse? What can one do?

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, the Government is encouraging people to form co-operatives and apply for artisanal licenses that the Government is giving. However, obviously, in places where there is a license, it is difficult for one to apply.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, I am a very patriotic Zambian. So, when a question like this is asked, I am very interested.

Madam Speaker, there are license holders who have been holding on to the licences for speculation for the last five, ten or twenty years. Some of them were given the right to mine, but they do not have the capacity to mine. So, they were anticipating somebody from somewhere, like Chinsali, to help them out, but it has not happened. What has been happening is that the local people, who own that land and have been cultivating on it, are leaving on it. When they discover that there is manganese on the land, they cannot be issued with an artisanal licence. If they are given, it takes, maybe, six months to go through the process of getting the artisanal licence because the tenement holder does not agree to give out the licence.

Madam Speaker, we have heard His Excellency the President said that the people should apply for artisanal licences so that they do not mine illegally. When is the hon. Member going to come up with a simple way that a co-operative out there in Chipili or Nyimba can use to get an artisanal license so that people can create wealth and contribute to the gross domestic product (GDP) of the country? Those minerals are not meant for a white man or a Chinese out there, but for us.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, the policy of the Government is that Zambians must be part of the mining activities in the country. That is why it is encouraging the locals to form co-operatives, as I said. However, obviously, it is also looking into those processes, which are taking too long. We are in the process.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chala: Madam Speaker, I think that the question that I had asked earlier is on exploration. It is mandatory that where there is an exploration licence already, the person who wants to get an artisanal licence should get consent. This is happening countrywide in places such as Mumbwa and Chipili. For instance, Luapula Province has already been taken up. You cannot get an artisanal license without consent. My question is on what should be done if someone refuses to give you that consent to apply to the mines. That is the question. The other question is: I want to know whether –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, ask one question. I think that you had an allocation for one, but you are entitled to two.

Mr Chala: Madam Speaker, I was explaining the question I wanted him to answer. In the second question, I want to know whether the hon. Minister has the power to give a waiver to those who cannot be given consent by exploration holders. This problem is everywhere. I have been to Mumbwa and the problem is there because one has to contact the holder of the exploration licence.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, I already said that we encourage Zambians to participate. In any case, if the local people have found some minerals within the area where there is an exploration licence, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, and the hon. Minister are there. They should come to the ministry and we will take a look at that case. However, what we are not allowing the local people to do is coming the ministry, and if they fail to get an artisanal licence, proceeding an illegal way. That is not encouraged.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for is answers. I think that the issues of application for artisan licences and its problem come from what is obtained in the Act, where it is stipulated that if one wants to apply for an artisanal licence, one does not have to apply for the mineral the original owner of the exploration licence had applied for. So, does the Government intend to amend that piece of legislation, which does not allow artisanal licence applicants to apply for the same mineral that the owner of the original licence applied for? This is where the problem comes from.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, the Government is going through some reforms in the ministry. At an appropriate time, it will consider that suggestion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

We make progress.

SAFETY OF PEOPLE LIVING NEAR FILLING STATIONS OPERATING IN RESIDENTIAL AREAS

29. Eng. Mabenga (Mulobezi) asked the Minister of Energy what measures are being taken to ensure the safety of people living near filling stations that are operating in residential areas in the event of fire.

The Minister of Energy (Mr Chikote): Madam Speaker, approval of locations for energy infrastructure, which includes filling stations, is the mandate of the Energy Regression Board (ERB), as provided for in Section 4 (f) of Energy Regression Act No. 12 of 2019. However, in executing this mandate, the ERB collaborates with the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA), local authorities and other relevant Government agencies. When approving the site for construction of filling station, the ERB refers to the technical requirements stipulated in the Sitting Guidelines and Technical Standards for Petroleum Infrastructure (SGTSPI) that the institution has developed in collaboration with the Zambia Bureau of Standards (ZABS) and other industry players over the years.

Madam Speaker, to further enhance safety at filling stations, the developer is required to meet the construction permit conditions and technical standards, which include, but not limited to are the following safety and technical requirements;

installation of all fuel storage tanks underground in a concrete chamber to prevent the tanks from exploding to the surface in case of fire incidents at a filling station;
construction of a boundary firewall between the filling station and residential dwellings. The said firewall should have a fire resistance rate of, at least, four hours and should be certified by the fire department of the local authority of that jurisdiction; and
prior to commissioning of the filling station, the local authorities' fire departments assess and recommends appropriate firefighting equipment, which is supposed to be used in case of fire emergency. Upon meeting the firefighting requirements, a filling station is then issued with a fire certificate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Eng. Mabenga: Madam Speaker, is it possible for the hon. Minister to encourage fuel dealers to set up filling stations in rural areas rather than crowding the whole town with filling stations, especially in Lusaka? We need these people in our area. Is it possible to encourage them to invest in rural areas as well?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, indeed, those are the concerns which have been raised. Of course, as I have said, relevant conditions are certified before a filling station is issued for installation. However, working together with other entities or regulatory agencies, we will keep on encouraging investing in areas where we do not have filling stations, other than just people just looking at Lusaka.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, the outbreak of fuelling stations in Lusaka is worrying. After every other home, especially in the Avondale area and Ibex, you will find a fuelling station. Does the hon. Minister think that the New Dawn Government has considered what our hon. Member from Mulobezi has asked? Is the hon. Minister sure that we are safe? I neighbour a filling station. I can even be burnt because of the fumes. What will be the final effect of those fuelling stations, which are dotted at every corner?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, like I stated, before a filling station is put up, a number of requirements have to be met. Indeed, the local authority is in charge, especially when it comes to land allocation. Also, ZEMA is in charge of making sure that the people are safe. However, as I stated in my first response, as a ministry, we will keep on encouraging the investors or developers to start taking advantage of the opportunities in districts that do not have filling stations, and that is the only way we can communicate with the developers.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the responses. The hon. Minister indicated that developers of these fuel stations or dealers are actually involved and are told to put their tanks in concrete to avoid their exploding in case of the fire.

Madam Speaker, the worry is not only about the breaking out of fire. Could the hon. Minister go further and assure the people who are live around these areas over the contamination of the water tables there. What is the ministry doing to ensure their safety not only from fire, but even the effects of water contamination by the tanks that are put down near homes?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, indeed, the concerns are being raised. However, what we have to keep in mind is that, before anything is given to the developers, ZEMA has to certify. It has to be satisfied with the requirements to make sure that when it comes to issues like contamination of water, people are safe. I stated that as a ministry, we will continue to give guidance and encourage up people to not concentrate on putting up filling stations in Lusaka. However, it has to be kept in mind that developers of the filling stations also consider where business can be viable, taking into account the safety and lives of the people, the ministry will do everything possible to encourage developers to start investing, especially, in the districts that do not have filling stations.

I thank you, Madam Speaker,

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, I think that the complaint from all the hon. Members who are here genuine because there is rampant establishment of filling stations around residential areas. The rate at which they are being established is quite alarming and it is posing a threat to the community. Is the ministry considering establishing an independent team to carry out an investigation on what is happening, particularly in Lusaka, in order to safeguard people from the danger that is likely to be caused? I rest my case on behalf of the people of Chifubu.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, in my first response, I stated that the ERB is mandated with the responsibility to know exactly what is happening in the infrastructure of filling station. So, that is an independent body that looks into regulation of filling stations or fuel infrastructure that are being put up across the country. However, I will keep repeating that as a ministry, we take the concerns seriously as we collaborates with the local authorities that provide or issue out permits for these places.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kolala (Lufubu): Madam Speaker, when you hear such issues coming out, it means that people are complaining. I would urge the hon. Minister to go to compounds like Kanyama and Mandevu because that is where he is going to see the reason people are complaining. He said that there are certain procedures that the developers need to follow in order for them to be certified. Would he clarify at what point they are certified; is it after they build the filling station or is it at a point where they sign papers that they will do A B C and D? As a ministry, what role does it have? What is it that it does to make sure that they follow whatever they signed for?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I stated that there are a number of Government agencies that have specific responsibilities. When a developer acquires a place from the local authority, ZEMA comes in. Before ZEMA issues the certificates to the developers, it makes assessments. So, it is there to verify the places that are given by the local authority.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, I never asked the hon. Minister a question in his previous position. It is a privilege to ask him one on this matter.

Madam Speaker, I have listened to the hon. Minister’s responses, and most of them are centred on the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA).

Madam Speaker, we live in a country where we are grappling with many allegations of corruption and money laundering. Has the hon. Minister taken time to understand whether the mushrooming of filling stations in residential areas is a way of money laundering, because those transactions are for which very few citizens will ask for receipts; they just go at a gas station+

whether there are sales or no sales at all, people can declare and tomorrow we will have a Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) report justifying huge sums of transaction that never took place.

Madam Speaker, away from ZEMA, because I do not want to go into the ZEMA details, filling stations are a passport to money laundering, and that is why, maybe, you are deliberately opening up filling stations in residential areas?

Hon. Member: Question!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I do not know if the hon. Minister can attempt to answer that.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I think, as a ministry, we are not competent to either prove this is about money laundering or something else. However, the concern that we have picked up is that we need to apply our mind to the mushrooming filling stations in Lusaka, as the ministry, and provide guidance, especially when we collaborate with other entities of the Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take to the last two questions from the hon. Member for Matero and the hon. Member for Kafulafuta.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Hon. Makozo Chikote, Member of Parliament for Luampa, in the Western Province, boa tarde, good afternoon.

Laughter

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, I want to remind the hon, Minister that 1^st October passed and the power supply is still three hours. He told us that it was going to improve. However, it is restored at 0300 hours to 0600 hours. It is just a gentle reminder.

Madam Speaker, on the question on the Floor, when there was a Mayor in Lusaka, all applications for filling stations used to be rejected for the same reason; the safety of the people of Lusaka. Now, you count ten houses, next, there is a gas station, which is a huge risk. My question also provides the hon. Minister a solution. Is he considering regulating the gas stations that are everywhere? They do not even have cars. So, to put up a wall fence of, maybe, 10 m high around them and fireproof in them so that in case of fire, at least, neighbours are protected. Where I live, at Boba, I neighbour a gas station and, the other side, there is a bush. So, I am speaking from personal interest.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, indeed, as one of the requirements for a filling station, I did mention firewall fences that are supposed to be erected between a filling station and a residential area. Of course, that is why I have assured the House that as ERB, we need to apply ourselves and make sure that those measures are in place, especially for the mushrooming filling stations in Lusaka.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Speaker, it is my conviction as well as my observation that any nation that develops is a nation that has a strong rule of law.

Allow me to say that, the hon. Minister has referred to the Zambia Environmental Agency (ZEMA) being the institution that monitors whether a project can be developed, putting it in my own words. Has the Government any system that would ensure that where there is a failure by ZEMA, the Government comes in and stops such a project? I am asking this because I have personally been dealing with ZEMA for the past ten years over one issue and I have seen how corrupt the system is. Thank God for the new management that is there. It seems to be going in the right direction. Does the Government have a system that can ensure that the right projects are approved and that those we have all expressed concerns about are not approved?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I did mention a few entities of the Government and how they collaborate to make sure that measures are in place or that the right things are being done. I agree with the hon. Member. It is the more reason you saw a change in the management at ZEMA. The New Dawn Administration changed the Administration of ZEMA because it realised that those who were there before were just very corrupt.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Chikote: That is a fact and it can be attested to by the hon. Member. So, the New Dawn Administration, going forward, has put in place an administration that will work for the people. The ministry, in collaboration with other agencies, will make sure that the concerns of the people are attended to.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, from the sentiments of the hon. Members of Parliament, they are worried about the mushrooming of filling stations, especially in Lusaka, as they are representing their people.

I thank you.

We make progress.

REFERRAL OF PATIENTS FROM THOMSON HOSPITAL FOR SCANNING SERVICES

30. Mr Simbao (Luanshya) asked the Minister of Health:

whether the Government is aware that patients at Thomson Hospital in Luanshya Parliamentary Constituency are being referred to health facilities in Ndola Central and Roan Parliamentary Constituencies, to access scanning services due to A lack of a Computed Tomography (CT) scan and X-ray machine at the Hospital; and
if so, when CT scan and an X-ray machine will be procured for Thomson Hospital.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, the Government is, indeed, aware that patients from Thomson Hospital in Luanshya are being referred to health facilities in Ndola Central and Roan parliamentary constituencies to access scanning services due to the lack of functional X-ray machines and absence of a Computed Tomography (CT) scanner at the hospital.

Madam Speaker, procurement of medical equipment, including digital X-ray machines and CT scanners is being done in a phased manner and is an ongoing process, in the current phase for 2024. Medical equipment and digital X-ray machines will be delivered and installed within 2025. In particular, Thompson Hospital is expected to be a beneficiary of a digital X-ray machine. As the CT scanner, Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to procure one for the hospital due to a limited fiscal space.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I really want to thank the hon. Minister for his answers, although I find the answers the technocrats gave the hon. Minister very unfortunate. I expected the hon. Minister to tell me that the CT scanner has been provided because the answer to this question took time before he could come back to the House. The CT scan has been given to us. The problem is the X-ray machine. It is very unfortunate because Thompson is a very big hospital. People cannot talk about hospitals on the Copperbelt Province without mentioning Thompson Hospital. Not only is it a very big hospital, but also a very busy one because it caters for so many people. How could it be that for six years not the hospital has not been given an X-ray machine? Does his ministry have a department that looks at equity? One that would have seen that it is not fair to let Thompson Hospital to operate like that for six years?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, yes, equity is there, except that we disadvantaged ourselves for a long time in health care, looking at the equipment that we needed. This time, the Government is concerned and wants to address all these issues. X-ray machines are needed everywhere, and your Government is ordering them in a phased manner and will be distributing them to all places. I was on the Copperbelt recently and I know that the Toshiba CT scanners in Kitwe and Ndola are not functional. They need to be serviced so that people are not troubled by having to go very far. The new hospitals that are being built are coming with equipment. Just bear with us. X-ray machines will be provided. At least, I can give you that comfort.

In fact, it is our desire even to go to faraway places like Lundazi firstly, to since patients from Luanshya can quickly go to Kitwe or Ndola. From Lundazi, it is difficult to rush to Chipata and other places. Your Government is caring.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, I agree with my elder brother, the hon. Member for Luanshya, that, indeed, Thomson Hospital caters for quite a large population. This is affecting Roan General Hospital in my constituency, which is the only general hospital with an X-ray machine. When the X-ray breaks down, it becomes a big challenge because many people from as far as Mpongwe, Masaiti and Lufwanyama come to Roan General Hospital. Is there any interim measure that the hon. Minister has to help my hon. Colleague from Luanshya to procure an X-ray machine immediately? Is it possible for the Government to allow us to buy ambulances the Constituency Development Fund (CDF)? Is it possible for the hon. Minister to sit with his counterpart and allow my hon. Colleagues to buy an X-ray machine from funds under the CDF?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the follow-up question. Indeed, he already has one solution. He and my hon. Colleague here, can use their Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and procure one. They are not limited. What I am saying is that despite that, the ministry is going to procure an X-ray and it has taken note. The hon. Member will be given one in his hospital. That is the position. The Government is concerned about everyone. This Government cares for every Zambian and wants health care to reach every person in Zambia regardless of people’s tribe, height and colour. It is so caring that it wants everyone to be cared for.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, I congratulate the hon. Minister. I have not asked the hon. Minister a question since he was appointed.

Madam Speaker, I want to sound a little intelligent. The question is about a CT scanner. The audience out there, in Matero in particular, does not know what a CT scanner is. CT scanner stands for Computed Tomography, which is a diagnostic imaging procedure that uses a combination of X-rays and computer technology to produce images of the inside of the body. So, for a doctor to detect what is wrong with somebody, he/she needs to see that, especially for cancer patients. Doctors need to determine whether the cancer is at stage one, stage two or stage three. It is a very vital equipment that is not in all our hospitals. Here, in Lusaka, it is only found at Maina Soko Military Hospital and Medland Hospital. The one at the University Teaching Hospitals (UTHs) breaks down every week. For one to go to Medland Hospital, Maina Soko Military Hospital or elsewhere, one has to pay K4,000, but most people do not have the money. Imagine a patient from Kanyama –

Madam Speaker, there is no budget line for equipment for the Ministry of Health in the 2024 Budget to buy CT scanners or the equipment that is needed in all the hospitals. The equipment is urgently needed because people are dying of cancer. The Budget does not show that there is money reserved for that in 2024. I would like to know whether the ministry is going to prevail upon the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to find money somewhere so that a CT scanner can be bought for Roan Hospital, Luanshya. After that, the ministry can go ahead and buy one for Luanshya District Hospital and then another one for Matero Leve1 One Hospital and the other hospitals.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the question. Actually, I have not seen him in a long time ever since he was set aside.

Laughter

Hon. UPND Member: Hammer!

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, a CT Scanner is a very expensive machine. At the moment, there is one at LMUTH and, of course, the is another one at the UTH. Then, there are five others in places, including Ndola Teaching Hospital, Kitwe Teaching Hospital and other places. They just need to be serviced, and it is our desire to do that. The Cancer Hospital that is coming up will also have one.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is talking about Matero and everywhere. We just need counterpart funding, as donors are helping us in this area. The only problem we faced during the hon. Member’s Administration, and I sorry to mention this, is that there was money from the donors, but it was given back.

Mr Sampa interjected.

Mr Muchima: Yes, it was a lot of money; about US$17 million.

Mr Muchima faced Mr Sampa.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Address me, hon Minister.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, through you, that money would have been used. So, it is the policy of this Government to not let the money from donors be given back. We need every Dollar that is given to be spent rightfully for the people of Zambia. When that money is available, we need to be accountable and transparent, and the equipment will be bought for our people. It is our desire to have CT scanners everywhere in every province so that they help our people. Of course, they are quite expensive, but we are going about it through the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA). In addition, we want to broaden NHIMA so that it becomes self-sufficient and it can attend even to the poor people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will have the last question from the hon. Member for Mufulira.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, Thomson Hospital is not the only health institution struggling with equipment like X-ray machines and the Computed Tomography (CT) scanners. In our case, in Mufulira, it has been over two years since I went to Ndeke House and requested for an X-ray machine for Kamuchanga District Hospital. I was asked to put my request in writing and was promised that it would come soon, but up to now, there is no functional X-ray machine at the hospital.

Madam Speaker, in his response, I have heard the hon. Minister indicating that the ministry is in the process of procuring the machines in question. I wanted to find out if he could be specific how many, if at all the ministry is procuring any X-ray machines and, of course, the CT scanning machine this year and how many the ministry will be procuring next year so that we know whether to count on the ministry’s procurement or we need to find other means because the machines are urgently needed not only at Thomson Hospital, but in several health institutions.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, would I not say how many at the moment, but I am saying that there is a provision and the procurement is ongoing. So, as we are procuring, we shall take stock, especially on the Copperbelt. We also need to repair the one in Kitwe. There is a new one in Chimwemwe as well. All the new hospitals which have been commissioned by His Excellency the President have brand new machines. So, we shall take stock and see which one should be a priority, especially taking into consideration the distances from where the masses are. This is an ongoing process. It is quite expensive, but it is one we are giving our priority. That is what I can say.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ELECTRICITY GENERATION AT MUSONDA FALLS HYDRO POWER STATION

32. Mr Chibombwe (Bahati) asked the Minister of Energy:

(a) how many megawatts (MW) of electricity were being generated at the Musonda Falls Hydro Power Station in Bahati Parliamentary Constituency as of August 2024;

(b) whether the Government has any plans to expand the water reservoir that feeds Musonda Falls on the Luongo River;

(c) if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

(d) if there are no such plans, why.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, as of August 2024, Musonda Falls Hydro Power Station was generating an average of 4 MW.

Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to expand the water reservoir.

Madam Speaker, based on the response in part (b) of the question, part (c) of the question falls off.

Madam Speaker, due to environmental considerations, extending the water reservoir capacity would result into increased area of flooding, which would, in turn, affect the nearby resettlement.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, indeed, I should report you that in Mansa, Ntenama Village, where I come from, we have been off supply for the last forty-eight hours, yet there is a power station which is 50 km away from our village.

Madam Speaker, Musonda Fall Hydro Power Station was expanded from 2 MW to 10 MW. What remained was expansion of the water reservoir to increase the holding capacity. The station generates 10 MW during the rainy season, but we cannot harvest water because the holding capacity of the dam is small. The project that was going to start after the expansion of the power plant was the expansion of the water reservoir. There is enough space and there are plans for the expansion of the water reservoir. So, I do not know why the hon. Minister is saying that the Government has no plans.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your question?

Mr Chibombwe: Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, my question is: Where has the plan, which was on paper in the ZESCO Limited offices, gone? I know it is there because I have seen it. Why is the Government not interested in expanding the water reservoir at Mutwewankoko Village on the Luongo River so that 10 MW can be generated throughout the year at Musonda Falls?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, this is the expert response. What the hon. Member is saying is not the correct information. The correct position is that the experts cannot expand the reservoir for the reasons that have stated in the answer to part (d) of the question. As per the question, currently, the Musonda Falls is producing only 4 MW.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, it is a pity that the hon. Minister does not want the free advice and information we are providing him.

Madam Speaker, there is no village near the water reservoir. At the moment, Musonda Falls is only generating between 1.7 MW and 2 MW. In August, it was at 4 MW and today, it is between 1.7 and 2 MW. So, I do not know what information the experts are giving our hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister willing to get back to the site, together with other stakeholders, so that they relook the water reservoir or, maybe, have plans, in the future, to expand the water reservoir and produce 10 MW at the Musonda Falls Hydro Power Station …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for –

Mr Chibombwe: … so that we sort out the issue of load-shedding in Luapula Province? We will help the hon. Minister because the President said that we should help the Government and work together.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Bahati, that is not the way we ask questions to the hon. Minister. The whole nation is listening to the proceedings of Parliament. Let us follow the rules. We are not fighting. We are helping one another to serve the people of Bahati.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for this question even if he wants to use emotions to represent his people.

Madam Speaker, the question says, as of August 2024. That is what I was responding to. I said that as of August 2024, it was producing 4 MW. However, if he asked how much it currently producing, I would have given him the answer that it is 1.1 MW. I was responding to his question.

Madam Speaker, this Government has already assured us that it will continue looking into the affairs of the energy sector to provide measures that are going to respond to the challenge the country is going through. That assurance has been given by this New Dawn Administration. So, the hon. Member should not panic. We are there to provide and respond to our citizens.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you very kindly. Permit me to appreciate the response from the hon. Minister. Having had a perusal of the Hansard, I take recognisance that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central once said that to provide water in the southern hemisphere, where there is a lot of hydro power, we needed to create a canal from the Chembe River which, apparently, does not exist. What the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central could have meant then was that there was enough water in the Luapula region as a result of the Congolese influence, which could have attracted many water pools in Luapula and the northern hemisphere.

Madam Speaker, knowing very well that if Luapula was expanded, knowing that the contractor was on site, the contract suspended or terminated, I would not be certain, but it is one of the two; it cannot be terminated or suspended. The 10 MW would feed parts of the Northern Province, Muchinga Province, and the Eastern Province. Why should the Government not, then, allow the contractor to finish the expansion programme?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, like I stated, this Administration is committed to making sure that all the challenges the country is facing in the energy sector are addressed. I also want to encourage the hon. Member that there is work in progress to make sure that this Administration starts doing feasibility studies in the Northern Circuit, where we are going to invest in hydro power stations. So, I have no idea of the contractor on the Musonda Falls that the hon. Member is talking about. On that one, I do not want to mislead the hon. Member about whether there is a contractor.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

_______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1828 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 16^th October, 2024.

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