Wednesday, 31st July, 2024

Wednesday, 31^st July, 2024

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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No Quorum

Madam Speaker: If the quorum is not formed by 0924 hours, unfortunately, we will adjourn until tomorrow. Please, call other hon. Members to join us. We have ten minutes before the House adjourns.

The bells rang.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

We now have a quorum.

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other Government Business, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Mr Jacob Jack Mwiimbu, SC., MP, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House from today, 31^st July, 2024, until further notice.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA STUDENTS IN THE PUBLIC GALLERY

Madam Speaker: I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of students from the University of Zambia (UNZA) under the Development Studies Association in Lusaka District.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome the visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

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URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

MR KAMPYONGO, HON. MEMBER FOR SHIWANG’ANDU, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, MR MUCHIMA, ON THE STATE OF DRUG SUPPLIES IN HOSPITALS

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter Without Notice is directed to the hon. Minister of Health.

Mr Kampyongo resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: You may proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, this matter relates to drug supplies in our health facilities. The country is grappling with the issue of lost trucks that were laden with medical supplies and we are yet to get concrete reasons for that scandal. Today, the nation has woken up to another scandal related to medicines. There is a screaming headline in the News Diggers newspaper of today, which states:

“Copperbelt Police Intercept Truck Carrying Government Drugs and Nab Five”

Madam Speaker, this is a matter of life and death. While our people are grappling with illnesses in hospitals, there are trucks of imported consignments that are not accounted for. According to the story in the news today, the truck that was intercepted was destined for some neighbouring country.

Madam Speaker, these are serious matters that require us, as people’s representatives, to hold our hon. Colleagues in the Executive accountable.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious guidance on this matter.

Madam Speaker: I think, the issue of missing containers of drugs graced the Floor of this House the whole of last week. We talked about it several times, and our Standing Orders do not allow us to repeatedly discuss a particular matter.

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, I suggest you file in a question, especially that this issue stems from a newspaper headline. We do not know the veracity of that headline; whether it is true or not. Of course, all Zambians would like to know the status of medical supplies in our hospitals. So, by filling in a question, the hon. Member will be able to assist the Executive to come to the Floor of the House and provide some answers so that the people of Zambia know the status of medicines in our hospitals.

Mr Kampyongo: Can I file in an urgent question?

Madam Speaker: Yes, you can file in an urgent question.

DR MWANZA, HON. MEMBER FOR KAUMBWE, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON KAUMBWE DISTRICT ALLEGEDLY NOT RECEIVING INPUTS UNDER THE FARMER INPUT SUPPORT PROGRAMME

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, the matter I wish to raise is directed to the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Spoke in Chinese).

Laughter

Dr Mwanza: I was just saying good morning to the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Laughter

Dr Mwanza: Madam Speaker, certain districts recently received inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), such as D-compound fertiliser, for the 2024/2025 Farming Season. Is the hon. Minister of Agriculture in order to not emulate his counterpart, the hon. Minister of Technology and Science, who distributed a list of the Starlink Internet connection kits to our constituency offices? What I am asking is when we expect the people of Kaumbwe in Petauke District to receive the inputs for the 2024/2025 Farming Season.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kaumbwe, you can file in an ordinary question. I would also like to encourage you to engage the hon. Minister of Agriculture. He is here and willing to provide an answer, but our Standing Orders do not allow him to provide an answer now. So, I would like to encourage the hon. Member for Kaumbwe to, please, engage the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Maybe, he can even learn some Chinese from you.

Laughter

MR AMUTIKE, HON. MEMBER FOR MONGU CENTRAL, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR MWIIMBU, SC., ON RECENT INCIDENCTS OF CRIME IN THE COUNTRY

Mr Amutike (Mongu Central): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the people of Mongu Central a chance to raise an Urgent Matter Without Notice. I am aware that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is coming to make a statement tomorrow over the death of the Director-General of the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA). However, I think, it is very compelling for me to raise this matter now.

Madam Speaker, I would like to quote the Inspector-General of Police, who said, “There are junkies in the Police Force”. I want to put it on record that it is a fact that some of the people who have been arrested in connection with this incident are policemen. It is also a fact that these policemen were recruited under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. Further, it is also a fact that some of the people who have been arrested are related to top figures in the PF party.

Madam Speaker, the people of Mongu are asking whether we should begin to connect the dots. The first time we heard about an abduction, it was in a case of self-abduction of a PF hon. Member of Parliament from this House.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security in order to sit there quietly without coming to the House to give a statement on the connection of all the dots regarding these matters?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I sense a raw nerve here each time this matter is raised. Anyway, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is coming to issue a statement in the House tomorrow. Please, hold on to your questions and them when the hon. Minister comes to deliver that statement tomorrow. So, please, let us not argue. Otherwise, how will it be tomorrow when the hon. Minister’s statement is delivered?

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, notwithstanding your guidance, Standing Order No. 71 demands that matters that are tabled in this august House must be verifiable and factual.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member, who has the propensity of debating while seated and making sweeping allegations, in order to make such unverifiable and sweeping allegations against hon. Members on your left-hand side? He has alleged that the people who have been arrested are related to the Patriotic Front (PF) when he has no facts to lay on the Table. Is he in order to get away with that kind of misconduct on the Floor of this august House?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I have already guided on that matter and I ruled the hon. Member for Mongu Central out of order by saying that the hon. Minister is coming to deliver a ministerial statement tomorrow. So, I have already guided. Let us not flog a dead horse. Please, hold on to your questions.

I cannot pre-empt what tomorrow will be like, but let us make sure that tomorrow, we maintain order and decorum. The thing is that if tomorrow, an hon. Member comes to the House with allegations, he or she should be prepared to lay the evidence on the Table of the House. Otherwise, let us desist from making allegations that we cannot substantiate.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ERRATIC WATER SUPPLY IN CHINSALI DISTRICT

407. Mr Mukosa (Chinsali) asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

whether the Government is aware that Chinsali District has been experiencing erratic water supply;

if so, what the cause of the erratic water supply in the district is; and

what urgent measures are being taken to prevent an outbreak of water-borne diseases and loss of life.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Eng. Nzovu): Madam Speaker, yes, the Government is aware that some parts of Chinsali District are experiencing erratic water supply and the most affected area is the central business district (CBD), which receives water from the Boma plant.

Madam, the cause of the erratic supply in some parts of Chinsali District is the loss of the pump at the Boma intake, which was damaged due to high electricity voltage.

Madam Speaker, the urgent measures being undertaken to prevent an outbreak of water-borne diseases and the loss of life are as follows:

raw water for the Boma treatment plant is now being obtained from Lubu Dam, located about 7.5 km away. However, this supply is not adequate; and

the ministry has since allocated a sum of K5.2 million to the Chambeshi Water Supply and Sanitation Company to enable the commercial utility to procure water treatment chemicals, non-revenue water materials and a standby pump to replace the damaged pump at the Boma pump station.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, the problem of erratic water supply in Chinsali has been going on for almost three months and the central business district (CBD) has not been having water. When are we expecting the Chambeshi Water Supply and Sanitation Company to fix the pump, which has been the problem that has resulted in the people of Chinsali not to be receiving water?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very important question, and we really apologise for the erratic water supply in Chinsali. This is not the way it should be. However, we have taken every measure to ensure that we resolve this issue. This is why the ministry has transferred K5.2 million to the Chambeshi Water Supply and Sanitation Company to solve the problem.

Madam Speaker, I think, the good news for the hon. Member of Parliament is that the ministry took it upon itself to help the Chambeshi Water Supply and Sanitation Company to fix the problem. As we speak, we have found the pump and I think that we will be delivering it to the site tomorrow. Within the next few days, the people of Chinsali will start receiving normal supply of water.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I am very thankful to the hon. Minister for his response.

Madam Speaker, water supply from utility companies has been very problematic. You may wish to know that water utility companies perform poorly in most cases. We, the residents who consume this water are taxpayers in this country, but we do not receive this service. When utility companies do not raise enough revenue, they even go to the Treasury to look for money to pay salaries.

Madam Speaker, on the Copperbelt Province, if it is not Kitwe, Ndola or Luanshya with no water supply, it is Mufulira. In Mufulira, we have no water from the Mulonga Water Supply and Sanitation Company. Since the hon. Minister receives reports on the Floor of this House, has his ministry taken an audit to check the real performance of companies under his ministry? This issue is getting out of hand. Everybody is concerned about water-borne diseases that are prevalent as we go towards the rainy season and it is becoming worrisome.

Madam Speaker: The question under consideration is constituency-specific. I do not know if the hon. Minister is ready to answer a general question.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, this Government is always alert and ready to answer any question. Therefore, I invite more and even harder questions.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kantanshi has asked a very important question and I will start by updating him. Indeed, erratic water supply is a big problem. This problem stems from there being old and inadequate infrastructure, vandalism, increase in population, non-revenue water and low tariffs in the water sector. As it is, most commercial utilities are barely surviving. Most of them do not even generate enough revenue for maintenance works, let alone pay statutory obligations. They are among the most indebted institutions right now and they are struggling to pay salaries. This is the reason the Government pays their bills. A classic example is what we are doing in Chinsali, where the Chambeshi Water Supply and Sanitation Company is not able to supply water to many towns.

Madam, we are aware of the problem and we have done an audit. My predecessor did quite well. I have also been on board to see that all commercial utilities are audited. What is happening right now is that there is a very detailed audit going on to see what the Government can do to help.

Madam Speaker, we are taking advantage of the drought response programme to address some of these challenges. So, on one hand, the drought is an advantage for us. We want to see what we can do to improve water supply to our people. I think, we have heard His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, continuously talk about water harvesting. We need to harvest water. One of the biggest problems is that the drought is climate change-induced. Many water sources, such as boreholes and raw water from rivers and lakes, are depleting. This makes it very difficult to get raw water.

Madam Speaker, we need to increase the capacity of treatment plants and extend the distribution networks to our people because the capacities are small. These are the challenges and we need a water revolution in the country. We need to fund the water sector more. I am thankful that the Government is taking this matter very seriously. So, there will be a lot of investment into the sector. I am sure, we have all seen that Parliament has allocated quite a substantial amount of money to the water sector. We can only ask for more. So, we need to do more in the water sector.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us not open up the questions too much. We have a lot of work on the Order Paper. This is a constituency-specific question and I will ask the hon. Member for Chinsali to pose his second supplementary question.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the assurance he has given me in this House and the people of Chinsali that tomorrow, the Chambeshi Water Supply and Sanitation Company will take a pump to Chinsali. If that does not happen, I will go and see the hon. Minister so that we ensure that it is done.

Madam Speaker, in addition to the pump not working, the other problem is load-shedding. If the department of water at the Chambeshi Water Supply and Sanitation Company had a generator, this problem was not going to be there. So, is the Chambeshi Water Supply and Sanitation Company considering buying a generator so that when there is load-shedding, water can still be pumped for the people of Chinsali?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, let me inform the hon. Member that we are working very closely with the Ministry of Energy to ensure that we address challenges of energy supply. Where we do not have dedicated electricity supply to public institutions, we are, indeed, looking at the option of supplying generators. Further, we are also trying to ensure that we increase the storage capacity to pump water in such areas during the few hours when electricity is available.

Madam Speaker, finally, I want to assure the hon. Member of Parliament, and through him, the people of Chinsali, that the Government is doing everything possible to end erratic water supply. They should be assured that we have found the pump. In the next few days, this problem will be a thing of the past.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

PLANS TO REPAIR THE FRIENDSHIP BOAT ON LAKE BANGWEULU

408. Mr Fube (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Transport and Logistics:

whether the Government has any plans to repair the cargo boat commonly referred to as ‘Friendship Boat’ in order to ease the transportation of cargo on Lake Bangweulu;

if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

what the estimated cost of repairing the vessel is.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (on behalf of the Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali)): Madam Speaker, in response to Question No. 410 –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Sorry, hon. Minister, it is Question No. 408; the one about the Friendship Boat.

Eng. Milupi: About what?

Madam Speaker: Question No. 408.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I apologise. These responses were given to me recently and there is another question from Hon. Fube.

Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to repair the MV friendship vessel in order to ease transportation of cargo on Lake Bangweulu. Kindly take note that the vessel was given to the Zambia Postal Services Corporation (Zampost) to repair and manage in 2021.

Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to start repairs on the vessel once resources are available.

Madam Speaker, the cost of repairing the engines and super-structure is estimated at K3.5 million.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the repair of the vessel has been urgent and still is. Many businessmen and women constructing things in Chilubi Island have wasted a lot of money due to materials being thrown in the water. This is because of the vessels being used to transport cargo.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that the vessel in question will be repaired when funds are available. I want to know the timeframe for that because people are currently stressed. There is the Lucheleng’anga passenger boat which people are forced to use to transport items such as cement. We may just have a double disaster if we continue using the Lucheleng’anga boat for long stretches. So, can the hon. Minister give the timeframe for repairing of the Friendship Boat.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Government always sympathises with our citizens who undergo difficulties. However, I will give more information. An assessment was done on the engines and fabrication of the super-structure. The hon. Member’s question is when it is going to be done. The engines will be repaired by Barloworld Equipment Zambia Limited in Kitwe, while the super-structure fabrication will be done by local artisans on site.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has referred to cargo currently being ferried through the Samfya coast using the MV Lucheleng’anga boat. His question was: When will funds be made available to repair the Friendship Boat? The answer is that no funds are appropriated without reference to this august House. We are in the process of preparing the National Budget. I will ask the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi to take keen interest in the preparation of this Budget so that matters of this nature that he feels very strongly about can be taken into account.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I have special interest in this matter in the sense that fifteen or twenty years ago, if not twenty-five, I was one of the people who went to assess the same Friendship Boat. At that time, the engines and electrical part of the whole system which were there were run-down. Today, we have been told that Barloworld Equipment Zambia Limited will fix those engines. These are engines that were made in the 1970s and I know Eng. Milupi understands very well that they are a nightmare.

Madam Speaker, is it possible to just replace the boat or get brand-new Caterpillar engines for the boat? I am saying this because I am one of the people who went to assess the boat about fifteen or twenty years ago and there was nothing to write home about. So, repairing that boat today is practically impossible. So, does the hon. Minister not think that it is important to just replace the whole system instead of trying to repair the super structure?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Nyimba for that intervention. It relates to something fairly technical in the engineering profession. In other words, he is talking about repairing versus replacing the boat. For the sake of giving a bit of engineering education, here is what happens when we make a decision on an asset on whether to repair or replace. We first look at the repair cost. If the repair cost is more than 60 per cent of the cost of a new item, like the machine we are talking about, then automatically, it means you need to replace it. The economics of running it, in terms of operational costs and so on, would not be viable.

Madam Speaker, secondly, you have to look at the asset’s lifespan after repairs. If the lifespan that you are able to achieve for the asset is at least 80 per cent of the lifespan of a new one, then you can proceed with repairs. With respect to this particular item, and I am glad that the hon. Member saw it, I am sure our technical people in the ministry and those associated with the asset have made suitable assessments. The assessment they have come up with is that this asset should be repaired. As I said, the repairing of the asset will be undertaken by Barloworld Equipment Zambia Limited. So, we have to go with the assessment which our technical team has made and this is what I have presented to Parliament.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has referred to the 2025 Budget as what we can rely on to fill the gap. I want to find out what can be done between now and the implementation time of the 2025 Budget. We can no longer emphasise the fact that people are using the post boat, and not the passenger boat the hon. Minister referred to, carry heavy things like machinery or vehicles. This boat is stressed because it is being used mainly by contractors to ferry stones. As you know, there are no stones at Chilubi Island.

Madam Speaker, I have scanned what is in place in other parts of the country and I have gone as far as Kazungula. I have seen that there is a lot of machinery lying around that could be used as ferries to help the people of Chilubi. I have even reached out to the substantive hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics, but he gave me what I considered a bit of a casual answer. Is the Government considering putting in place some measures that can assist the people in Chilubi to transport heavy things like vehicles to the island?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, since the beginning of our stay in this House, I have come to like the hon. Member for Chilubi for the simple reason that he is very proactive on behalf of his constituency. On this matter, however, what I have stated is the answer. I urge him, as he does on other matters, to engage us further so that if what is proposed here is not satisfactory and this problem continues to inconvenience our citizens, we can look at other options. He has identified other machinery that, in his view, can be useful in that particular area. We are one country. So, I would urge him to engage further, to the extent that even when the substantive hon. Minister is back, he can continue to use me to be the go-between himself and the substantive hon. Minister.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: We move to the next question.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, Question No. 14.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, what is the question number?

Mr Kapyanga: It is No. 410.

Madam Speaker: No, it is 409.

Mr Mposha: Youth chairman.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, it is Question No. 409.

PONTOON ON LUANGWA RIVER TO CONNECT MUCHINGA AND EASTERN PROVINCES

409. Mr Kapyanga asked the Minister of Transport and Logistics:

whether the Government has any plans to provide a pontoon on the Luangwa River to connect Nabwalya Chiefdom in Mpika District, Muchinga Province to the Eastern Province;

if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

if there are no such plans, why.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Mpika looks young to me. So, he must not be fumbling on matters of this nature.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Government will install a pontoon on the Luangwa River to connect Nabwalya Chiefdom in Mpika District to the Eastern Province once resources are made available.

Madam Speaker, as stated above, the Government has plans to implement the installation of a pontoon on the Luangwa River once resources are made available. Further, since the function of pontoon services has been devolved to the local authorities, the Government will consider making provisions for the installation of a pontoon through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for Mpika Constituency. The ministry has since been engaged by the local authority to conduct an assessment of how much will be required for such an installation and a bill of quantities (BoQ) has been raised.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, let me remind the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development that I remain very youthful and energetic.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: It is just that today’s Order Paper was revised and I did not see the revised one.

Madam Speaker, I am happy that the hon. Acting Minister of Transport and Logistics is the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, who should have taken care of the Mpika/Nabwalya Road. If that had been done, the issue of the pontoon would not have been a topic of discussion today.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that we have been guided to use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Initially, the Ministry of Transport and Logistics went to Nabwalya to assess the issue of the pontoon so that it could be included in the 2024 Budget under the ministry’s annual work plan. I want to find out from the hon. Minister when that plan was abandoned because we do not have money under the CDF. We are still attending to Presidential directives.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I am always very cautious about directing works towards the CDF because I know that the CDF takes many projects under its wing. However, sometimes when we have an urgent matter and the costs are not high for that particular project, I think, it is proper that the CDF is put up as one of the options for funding that particular project.

Madam Speaker, the pontoon has been inspected and a lot of work has been done on it. Therefore, the fabrication, transportation and installation of a 15 tonne pontoon at Nabwalya Chiefdom in Mpika District to connect that chiefdom to the Eastern Province is estimated to cost K1,481,754.46. In our view, that is an amount that is perfectly affordable even within the CDF. Here is a breakdown of those costs:

Works Cost (Kwacha)

Fabrication of pontoon vessel 1,650,943

Supply and installation of pontoon engines and propulsion units 70,000

Supply of pontoon accessories 80,992

Supply of pontoon safety materials 19,050

Transportation of pontoon floaters and other materials to site 91,956.48

Pontoon vessel assembly on site 153,812.98

Total 1,481,754.46

Madam Speaker, what I am saying to the hon. Member is that this is well within the scope of the CDF, but in case it is not, he should engage with the ministry during the preparation of the 2025 Budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, the Engineering Services Corporation (ESCO) Zambia Limited, which operates pontoons on different crossing points, generates some revenue from motorists who use pontoon facilities. It is expected that the corporation keeps some funds to go towards maintenance and other works. Is it so difficult for ESCO Zambia Limited to spare some funds, looking at the amount the hon. Minister mentioned, from its revenue basket to deal with this very important crossing point on the Mpika/Nabwalya Road?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu for raising this particular supplementary question. He was a very senior hon. Cabinet Minister in the previous administration and so, he knows the financial management structure of the country.

Madam Speaker, yes, those who have crossed certain points using pontoons have been made to pay certain fees. The very fact that there is no pontoon at this particular site shows that you cannot use that crossing point to raise revenues to procure a pontoon. That is why there is no money being generated by the pontoon. That is my assessment.

Madam Speaker, in any case, there is what we call non-tax revenues that are collected throughout the country. The financial management system is that all Government revenues are consolidated in Control 99. So, it is from Control 99 that the revenues are then apportioned by this House to fund various cost centres.

Madam Speaker, it is not possible to ring-fence revenues arising from a particular operation and say that the revenue will be used for a particular project. If that is allowed, the situation will become very wild and difficult to control. Further, this House will come down very heavily on Government officials who allow that to happen. The chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) will not allow a situation in which public revenue is just used anyhow.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF ADDITIONAL EMBANKMENTS IN CHILUBI

410. Mr Fube asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

whether the Government has any plans to construct additional embankments in Chilubi Parliamentary Constituency under the Transforming Landscapes for Resilience and Development Project, to improve road networks in the area;

if so, how many embankments are earmarked for construction;

whether the project will include the stretch between Mofu and Chiloba Wards;

what the estimated cost of the project is; and

when the project will commence.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct additional embankments in Chilubi Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, a total of 10 km of additional embankments has been earmarked for construction in Chilubi Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the earmarked project does not include the embankments on the stretch between Mofu and Chiloba Wards.

Madam Speaker, the estimated cost of the project is US$10 million.

Madam Speaker, the project is expected to commence once the Treasury secures the required funds.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that the earmarked project will cost US$10 million. It is important to note that there are twenty-one crossing points in Chilubi that need embankments, but I isolated one in my question, which is the stretch between Mofu and Chiloba Wards. The hon. Minister has ruled out this stretch from being worked on under the earmarked project. Maybe, he can be so kind as to tell the people of Chilubi which embankments this US$10 million is going to be spent on among the twenty-one crossing points.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the follow-up question from the hon. Member gives me an opportunity to expand a bit on the answer.

Madam Speaker, I wish to state that the Government is implementing a project with the World Bank, properly identified by the hon. Member as the Transforming Landscapes for Resilience and Development (TRALARD) Project for Zambia. The project is financed through a US$100 million loan from the World Bank. It is a five-year project, which started in 2020, and is supposed to end in December 2025. The project aims to improve natural resource management to support sustainable livelihoods and is being co-ordinated by the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment.

Madam Speaker, the project is being implemented in three provinces, namely Luapula Province, the Northern Province and Muchinga Province. It will cover fifteen districts, which include Kawambwa, Lunga, Samfya, Nchelenge, Chama, Lavushimanda, Mpika, Mafinga, Isoka, Kanchibiya, Chilubi, Mungwi, Nsama and Mpulungu. Two embankments, connecting Chupa to Chinfwenge and Mukumbwa to Mwenge and 22.5 km of access roads have been undertaken under the project at a cost of US$5,110,361.

Madam Speaker, the envisaged additional embankments earmarked for construction by the Government is the 10 km Ndela to Chifwenge stretch, which connects the Chifwenge and Chupa embankments in Chilubi Parliamentary Constituency. The detailed designs were prepared in 2020 by Messrs. Newtech Consulting Group.

Madam Speaker, the Government is in the process of concluding the procurement for the engagement of a contractor to carry out the identified rehabilitation works subject to availability of funding from the Treasury. Even the World Bank’s money has to come though the Treasury, but this should not be too much of a problem.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has pointed out that the stretch that has already been worked on. This stretch connects the Mukumbwa Embankment in Mwenge Ward to the embankment in Chifwenge Ward. This work was carried out at a cost of US$5 million. The stretch from Ndela to Chifwenge Ward that he has talked about is shorter than the two embankments that have been worked on. Further, the hon. Minister mentioned that the earmarked project will cost US$10 million. I do not know what other works are included in the project that will cost US$10 million. I know we have to take into consideration the issue of inflation. The two embankments that were worked on cover 22 km, which is longer than the 10 km stretch that is yet to be worked on. So, I want to understand what other works the US$10 million is going to take on board.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, as the hon. Member knows, the World Bank-funded projects are very closely monitored to ensure that there is accountability on the monies spent. In his question, the hon. Member has stated that the stretch to be worked on is shorter than the one which has already been worked on. Maybe, he is questioning whether the money is being spent properly. I want to assure him that when we deal with World Bank-funded projects, they are monitored meticulously to ensure that there is no fimo, fimo on site.

Laughter

Eng. Milupi: So, this particular project is being implemented correctly because this is the World Bank’s money.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

The hon. Member for Chilubi wants to know what you meant by the words you referred to as ‘fimo, fimo’.

Laughter

Eng. Milupi: It means there is no hanky-panky and we do this on a number of projects. For example, there is the Improved Rural Connectivity Programme, which is funded by the World Bank. We sit down and make sure that we account for every cent that the World Bank gives us. So, let me assure him that the projects that I have mentioned, which are going to be funded under the remainder of the US$10 million, will be done correctly. Further, he is free to continuously monitor this project to make sure that his constituency is serviced properly.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SPECIAL AUDIT REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL ON THE EXTERNAL DEBT OF THE REPUBLIC OF ZAMBIA

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House adopts the Report of the Select Committee on the Special Audit Report of the Auditor-General on the External Debt of the Republic of Zambia, for the period 1^st January, 2006, to 31^st December, 2022, for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 26^th July, 2024.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Speaker, in accordance with Order No. 197(b) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, your Committee considered the Special Audit Report of the Auditor-General on the External Debt of the Republic of Zambia, for the period 1^st January, 2006, to 31^st December, 2022, and now has the rare honour and privilege to present its findings before the House.

Madam Speaker, to acquaint itself with the queries cited in the Auditor-General’s Report, your Committee interacted with all controlling officers and other stakeholders whose institutions were cited. These tendered both written and oral submissions before your Committee. May I highlight a few pertinent issues that emanated from your Committee’s deliberations.

Madam Speaker, one prominent issue in the special audit report was the failure by the Ministry of Education to properly manage the contracts to supply school requisites. Allow me to state from the outset that your Committee is very disappointed with the manner in which the procurement process and delivery of school requisites was done.

Madam Speaker, it is apparent that the Ministry of Education did not conduct a needs assessment before entering into an agreement with Mikalile Trading Limited. This resulted in the supply, for instance, of computers to schools that did not have power supply and other supporting infrastructure such as staff rooms, as well as the distribution of carpentry tools to schools that did not offer carpentry, among others. If public funds are to be used prudently, your Committee implores the Executive to ensure that Regulation 30(1) and (2) of the Public Procurement Regulations of 2011 are adhered to. These regulations state as follows:

“

A user department shall document all procurement requirements in a procurement requisition in the format set out in the Third Schedule...

A user department shall:

in preparing the statement of requirements, ensure that it seeks and adheres to technical advice ...”

Madam Speaker, in addition, the controlling officers in the Ministry of Education are urged to ensure that an urgent reconciliation is conducted with regard to the contract with Mikalile Trading Limited in order to ascertain the level of indebtedness of the ministry to the contractor.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that a number of audited institutions, including the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, did not take the audit process seriously. This can be seen by their failure, on many occasions, to comply with the Public Finance Management Act, No.1 of 2018, which, under Section 73, mandates the audited entities to provide access to all information to the Office of the Auditor-General. For instance, as at 31^st January, 2024, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning had not provided details on how K100 million drawn from the third Eurobond account and deposited into Control 99 for budget support funds on 28^th December 2015, was utilised.

Madam Speaker, in addition, as at 31^st December, 2023, the ministry had failed to provide disposal details for the disbursed amounts totalling US$30,645,278.86 from the Eurobond account to a named commercial bank for the repayment that was drawn on 28^th August, 2015. Failure to provide the loan agreement on which the Government contracted the debt makes it difficult to ascertain how much the Government owes.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed with concern that most of the queries cited in the report are of an administrative nature. In this regard, your Committee urges the controlling officer to ensure that punitive measures are instituted against the officers who failed to provide the requested documents to auditors.

Madam Speaker, in addition, the Office of the Auditor-General is urged to ensure that reconciliations are done with the ministries at the time of audits in order to avert queries escalated to the Committee. Your Committee further notes with concern the continued contraction of works before commitment of funds, contrary to the Public Procurement Act No. 8 of 2020, Section 56(2)(a).

Madam Speaker, on the construction of the 321 km Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway by the Road Development Agency (RDA), the RDA entered into a contract on 31^st May, 2017 of US$1,245,775,986.98, when only US$187 million, representing 15 per cent, and only secured on 28^th May, 2019, was committed for the execution of the project. This resulted in a two year delay of the project. In a letter dated 11^th October, 2020, the RDA was later informed by the Treasury that it was not in a position to secure the financing for the remaining 85 per cent component of the project, which led to loss of time and funds.

Madam Speaker, in light of this, your Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury to ensure that projects are carried out once funding is secured in full.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to express my sincere gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee during its deliberations. Your Committee is also indebted to all the stakeholders who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary information that informed your Committee’s report.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Nyirenda: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving a chance to the people of Lundazi to second this Motion and to also be part of the Select Committee that scrutinised the national debt, which has been talked about a lot. The chairperson of your Committee has already highlighted some of the major issues contained in the report. I know that hon. Members have taken time to read through and will be able to debate the report adequately. Therefore, I will only speak on two issues that caught my attention during interactions with the witnesses.

Madam Speaker, the first issue that I wish to speak about is the questionable advance payment for the construction of the Frederick Jacob Titus (FTJ) Chiluba University, which is on page 56. The second issue I will speak about is the poor repayments of on-lent loans, which were given to water utility companies, Zamtel Limited and Zesco Limited.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of the FTJ Chiluba University, there has been a public outcry that money amounting to US$33,750,000 was paid but nothing happened. There have been questions as to whether this money was given to an individual or maybe it was stolen. However, the audit report has been able to clear some of the issues and Zambians know exactly what obtained. Since there are figures involved, allow me to quote:

“On 24^th April, 2024, Government entered into a financing agreement with the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China of US$191,250,000 to finance the construction of the FTJ Chiluba University. The contract sum of US$225 million was entered into between the Ministry of Education and China Energy Engineering Group and Heinen Electric Power Design Institute Company Limited with a contract duration of thirty-six months commencing on 23^rd September, 2017. An advance payment of US$33,750,000 was paid to the contractors on 30^th June, 2018.

However, following Cabinet’s decision on 28^th July, 2022, prior to any disbursements being made – I repeat: prior to any disbursements being made, the financial agreement was cancelled and the contract terminated on 31^st December.

Issues that were raised by the Auditor-General indicated that the management failed to provide the project closure accounts, engineer estimates and the consulting engineer’s report. It was, therefore, difficult to ascertain what was due to the Government or the contractor at termination. The controller’s response was there was nothing illegal about the advance payment as the contract was made in line with the provisions of the commercial contract Clause 14 (2).”

Madam Speaker, allow me to also speak about some of the on-lent loans that were given to state-owned enterprises, such as water utilities. The water utilities that were given funds by the Government then were not allowed to use what they were calling ‘cost reflective rates’. In 2019, there was the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. During the COVID-19 pandemic, there was a directive to suspend all disconnections of customers who defaulted on payments. It has been very difficult for the utility companies to pay back some of the loans because of the nature in which these companies operate. They are service delivery companies and their businesses depend on the lifestyles of individuals. In this case, there was an issue of the water utility companies obtaining money and failing to pay.

Madam Speaker, when the witnesses appeared before your Committee, the utility companies expressly mentioned that it was difficult for them to raise funds, especially when policies were being changed. The same situation obtained when we recently had cholera in the country. The water utility companies were given a directive to not disconnect people who had accrued water bills. It was the same thing that happened during the time when there was COVID-19. They were informed that there was no need for them to disconnect the people who had arrears, hence the companies continued to lose revenue.

Madam Speaker, Zesco Limited was also given an on-lent loan. The company has been making losses because it is offering services in far-flung areas where it is very difficult to charge commercial rates. The challenges that utility companies have been facing are similar to those of Zamtel Limited. You may wish to note that some of the monies which they were given were not enough. The companies indicated that it was very difficult for them to raise money because the operation costs had increased over time. It was very difficult for them to raise revenue, especially when the Governments is the one with control and giving different policies.

Madam Speaker, the people of Lundazi are grateful that you gave them a chance to second this Motion. Many issues have been highlighted and can now be settled.

Madam Speaker, I beg to second and thank you.

Mr Mumba rose.

Madam Speaker gave the Floor to Mr Mumba.

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, I was trying to briefly excuse myself to go to the Budget Committee. I was actually looking at the time.

Madam Speaker: Alright.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to make a few comments on the very important and special report of your Committee on an audit that was conducted to address a number of issues that have been reported to the public.

Madam Speaker, let me start my preamble by stating that fighting corruption requires political will. Therefore, whenever there are suspicions of corrupt practices, it is important that we address those suspicions through investigations. A special audit is one of the most important forms of investigation that can be conducted for us to arrive at what the correct picture is regarding particular suspicions.

Madam Speaker, what has confronted us over the past has been a lot of propaganda and sensationalisation with regards to issues of corruption. So, for us to be able to arrive at the correct picture, what has been done by your Committee is what ought to be done.

Madam Speaker, there are a number of issues that have been highlighted in your Committee’s Report, which were raised by the auditors. I will speak on two or three issues. One of the issues raised in the Auditor-General’s report was on the Frederick Titus Jacob (FTJ) Chiluba University in Luapula Province. I am sure that we are all aware that there has been a lot of sensational reporting on the FTJ Chiluba University. The reports have been insinuating that some people pocketed money meant for that university. However, the report by the auditors is very clear. The auditors noted that the query was whether the advance payment of US$33 million to Chinese contractors was an anomaly. This was the beginning of the problem the country is dealing with today.

Madam Speaker, the auditors stated that there was no anomaly in the payment of US$33 million to the contractors. This money was paid as counter funds by the Government for the construction of the FTJ Chiluba University. It was not an irregular payment. Standard practice dictates that there are two parties to a contract and in this case, it was the Government and the contractor. They were supposed to contribute money and the Government was expected to contribute 15 per cent of the total contract.

Madam Speaker, the US$33 million paid to the contractor was what the Government needed to pay and this has been presented in your Committee’s report. We are now aware of why the FTJ Chiluba University Project did not take off. All the projects that were started, including those where contractors were supposed to contribute funds, were cancelled because Zambia’s debt burden was chocking the nation.

Madam Speaker, it must now be brought to light that there was nothing sinister about what happened to the FTJ Chiluba University Project. The Committee’s report is very clear …

Mr Amutike: Question!

Mr B. Mpundu: … and anyone who wants to argue should go and check the contents of the report. The Secretary to the Treasury and the Attorney-General appeared before your Committee and stated that there was nothing irregular in the contract for the construction of the said university. So, why are we being sensational, casting aspersions on people and naming them that they were involved in corruption? Now the report –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members on my right, can we allow the hon. Member to debate. If hon. Members on the right have any responses, they can take notes and respond to the hon. Member’s debate at the appropriate time.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, some people in this country are sensational. They call others thieves and many other names, when we can carry out investigations to clear the air, as it was done by your Committee. So, there is nothing sinister about what happened to the FTJ Chiluba University. Nobody stole money for that project. There was no irregular payment. It was a clear transaction and your Committee reported as I have stated.

Madam Speaker, the other issue in the report is on the Eurobonds. Zambia Railways Limited needed about US$1 billion to overhaul the railway infrastructure and the Government gave the company US$120 million from the Eurobonds. According to your Committee’s report, the Secretary to the Treasury submitted that there was no form of irregularity in the way the money was spent, save for only US$3 million, for which goods were not supplied.

Madam Speaker, reconciliations were done and the Secretary to the Treasury put this on record, according to the report. This again, goes to show some people’s love for sensationalisation, and people have been called names. It has been alleged that individuals pocketed money from the Eurobonds. The US$120 million given to the Zambia Railways Limited did not go into anybody’s pocket and so, we must not be sensational.

Madam Speaker, allow me to speak on another issue contained in your Committee’s report. This is the supplier credit agreement between Mikalile Trading Limited and –

Mr Syakalima: You are too young to be lying!

Mr Syakalima left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, that hon. Minister is unreasonable in the way he is conducting himself. Bakulu sana balya.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I did not see how he acted. I was concentrating on the debate.

Please, proceed, hon. Member.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister was passing a lot of unpalatable comments as he was walking out and it is uncalled for.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, just continue with your debate. You have the protection. You may proceed.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, your Committee’s report speaks about supplier credit agreements between Mikalile Trading Limited and the Ministry of Education as well as the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. A supplier credit agreement is like a public-private partnership (PPP) arrangement. When the Government does not have the money, it seeks a supplier who can finance the supply of goods and services.

Madam Speaker, we have been told that in these instances, Mikalile Trading Limited supplied cameras to the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security and furniture to the Ministry of Education. The audit query was whether the contracts were irregular. However, a supplier credit agreement is not an irregular arrangement. A PPP project or arrangement is not irregular. These arrangements are provided for by the law.

Madam Speaker, there are people who want to stand on the mountain top and allege that there was corruption when we are talking about a Zambian who ordinarily should be supported. In Zambia today, people would rather give support to foreigners and not indigenous Zambian business owners. In this case, we are talking about a gentleman who had money to supply the Republic of Zambia with what was needed when the country had no money. Today, however, the Government has constituted a team to undertake a special audit because we believe that Zambians cannot do business in their own country. Should a Zambian not make money? There is poverty mentality in this country to the extent that if a Zambian is doing well and also doing business with the Government, that person is alleged to have conducted illegal businesses.

Madam Speaker, the supplier credit arrangements between Mikalile Trading Limited and the Government were not irregular. This House should not allow Zambians to be sensational on the issue of corruption. Any corrupt allegations must be proved through investigations and an audit, such as the one your Committee’s report is based on, is a starting point.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Your time is up.

Mr Amutike (Mongu Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Mongu Central a chance to support this Motion. I am very glad that the University of Zambia (UNZA) students are in the House today. They can assess the kind of leadership they previously had. If the Government can spend US$32 million –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The University of Zambia (UNZA) students are guests. So, please, do not involve them in your debate.

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, they need to understand why they were not receiving meal allowances. If the Government can spend US$32 million on the Frederick Titus Jacob (FTJ) Chiluba University, …

Mr B. Mpundu: It is US$33 million.

Mr Amutike: … but there is no building built on site, and somebody calls it perfectly done, then I do not know how I can describe a person who utters such a statement.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, if the Government procures computers that are supposed to cost K5,000 or K6,000 at K90,000 each through Mikalile Trading Limited and calls that prudent spending, then I do not know how to describe that kind of leadership.

Mr Munsanje: Nibakabolala!

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, allow me to remind the people of Zambia, through this House, that when the New Dawn Government took over, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government had defaulted on debt repayments. Our hon. Colleagues in Government then could not pay civil servants or recruit teachers and doctors. There were no medicines in hospitals at that time. This was simply because the Treasury was bankrupt. Somebody was pocketing public funds, and hence the stories we have heard of people giving several properties, such as filling stations, to family members. If it was not from public resources, where was the money coming from?

Interruptions

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, that was stealing, but our hon. Colleagues in the Opposition claim that they were prudently managing the economy of the country.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mongu Central!

Hon. Members, let us remain calm and let us not interrupt –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Menyani Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I am in the middle of guiding the House and you are raising a point of order.

Mr B. Mpundu: Bafwayeko bambi abakuchitako debate.

Hon. Government Members: It is alright. Bakabwalala!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member for Nkana, you were allowed to debate and nobody interrupted you. I protected you. So, when other hon. Members are debating, let us allow them to debate. If any hon. Member has a point to raise, please, write it down. That is the reason the House is sitting from morning until night time. This is meant to give hon. Members sufficient time to debate various reports.

So, hold your fire and take down notes on various points. When it is time for you to debate, then you can debate. Let us not interrupt any hon. Member’s debate by raising points of order.

May the hon. Member for Mongu Central continue.

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, if the PF Government contracted the road from Lusaka to Ndola at US$1.2 billion and the New Dawn Government is able to construct the same road at one-third of that price, and yet our hon. Colleagues in the PF call themselves prudent managers, then I do not know what is wrong with some people in this country. The New Dawn Government has been able to reduce the cost of constructing the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway to just over US$600 million, which the PF Government was supposed to contract at US$1.2 billion. The people of Zambia are obviously wondering where the PF Government wanted to take the rest of the money.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Amutike: Mr Speaker, just before business was suspended, I wanted to put it on record and remind hon. Members of this House that the report we are debating now looks at the period from 2006 to 2022. We all know who was in charge of this country for most of that period.

Mr Speaker, on a light note, I would like to reveal that I was approached by one of my hon. Colleagues, who is a friend of mine, from the PF. I will not mention his name because I do not want to embarrass him. However, he said, “Please, do not hammer much on me because I only ‘ate’ US$5 million from that money”.

Laughter

Mr Amutike: Mr Speaker, if an hon. Member of Parliament can stand on the Floor of this House and justify what happened to the project for the FJT Chiluba University, where US$33 million was spent and only the foundation was done, then there must be something wrong with that individual. How do you justify paying US$33 million for a foundation only? How do you justify buying fire tenders for US$1 million each when those things can cost just over US$100,000 each? How can that be justifiable? How do you justify being awarded a contract for solar power and not deliver? Some of the people who want to raise points of orders on me were awarded contracts to build solar hammer mills across the whole country, but nothing was delivered. That is why people are suffering in the rural areas. How do you justify doing that?

Mr Speaker, some people were also awarded contracts for feeder roads. When we went to Itezhi-Tezhi, we discovered that people were awarded contracts to work on the road network in the area, but there are still no roads. The roads are dusty. Those people are in this House. How do you justify all that and say it is prudent management of the country?

Mr Speaker, I think that we need to be serious as people in this country. How do you justify one person dishing out K90 million, sixty-nine vehicles and several properties to his son, when his whole salary for the seven years he was in power cannot amount to K90 million? Can we call that prudent management of the country and justify it?

Mr Speaker, as a country, we need to move away from shenanigan-kind of politics. We need to be serious on the leaders we choose.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Ms Chisenga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: There was an earlier announcement by the Hon. Madam Speaker that hon. Members will be given an opportunity at the right time to rebut the debate of others.

May the hon. Member for Mongu Central continue.

Mr Amutike: Mr Speaker, when the United Party for National Development (UPND) took over power, there was a dead python on the neck of this country. There was an outcry in this House and people begun fabricating stories, which they have now abandoned.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mongu Central, please, ensure that you refer to the report on the Floor of the House for us to avoid misguiding ourselves. As we debate, let us all ensure that we refer to the Committee’s Report.

Mr Amutike: Mr Speaker, let me refer to your Committee’s report. The report has highlighted the contract between the Government and Mikalile Trading Limited, which your Committee was very disappointed with. At this point, it is important to note that the New Dawn Government has now streamlined the processes in public procurement. Under the contract in question, Mikalile Trading Limited was supplying computers at K90,000 each to the Ministry of Education. These are computers that cost K6,000 each. Mikalile Trading Limited delivered computers even in rural constituencies like Luena, instead of delivering desks there. Since the New Dawn Government is prudent and does things meticulously, it has now introduced the procurement of school desks at the local level. Even those who are making noise here are now buying desks in their own constituencies because of the New Dawn Government.

Mr Speaker, since the New Dawn Government is not stealing public resources or getting money illegally, like some people were, teachers and doctors are now being employed. There is medicine in hospitals, despite a few scandals happening in this sector. We have brought such scandals to light so that the Zambian people can see how transparent their Government is. That is how a transparent and meticulous Government does things.

Mr Speaker, I know those who were doing illegal things in the past. The law will catch up with them very soon. They should not sit in this House and hide and think that the people of Zambia have forgotten because they are making noise here. The long arm of the law will soon visit them and they will be where they are supposed to be.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I always mistake you for Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Ah!

Mr Chala: Mr Speaker, many of the issues have been mentioned, especially by the seconder of the Motion. However, I am still interested in the issue of the Frederick Titus Jacob (FTJ) Chiluba University, although it has been cleared in the report. I think, it is important to understand how a contract is made. If a contract says that the contractor would receive advance payment for mobilisation or design, you should do that. The contractor for the FTJ Chiluba University Project was given US$33 million as part of the contract. This condition was in the contract signed by this Government.

Eng. Milupi: Which one?

Mr Chala: When I say this Government, I mean the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ). We do not have two states and there is only one GRZ.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala: Sir, I am sure that the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development is familiar with or is aware of the contract in question. The Government was supposed to pay 15 per cent of the total cost of the construction to the contractor in advance. The money was specifically for mobilisation and design. The contractor moved to the site and started doing something. The contractor did not abandon the project. It is the Zambian Government that terminated the contract after failing to fund the contractor.

Mr Speaker, I have heard people in and outside this House saying that they will recover the money. The people of Zambia, especially the people of Luapula, are waiting for the New Dawn Government to recover the money so that the construction of the university in Luapula Province can continue. We are expecting the Government to recover the money because it promised the people of Zambia, in particular the people of Luapula Province, that the money would be recovered. However, I can assure you that that money cannot be recovered. Why do I say so?

Laughter

Mr Chala: It is because the money was for the mobilisation of the contractor and designing of the university. It cannot be recovered, unless it was due to the failure by the contractor to undertake the work or poor performance. That is when we would say that we can recover the money, but in this case, the State cancelled the contract due to its failure to finance the project.

Mr Speaker, it is high time people started telling the truth. We should not continue being propagandists. Some people are known to be propagandists and are very good at creating the narrative of stealing. So, the people of Luapula are looking forward to the recovery of the money as promised so that the Government can continue building the FTJ Chiluba University.

Mr Speaker, there is also the issue of the US$120 million from the Eurobond which was given to Zambia Railways Limited. I am happy today. Why am I happy? I am happy because some of us here said that the previous Government was not employing qualified personnel. However, the current Board Chairperson of Zambia Railways Limited was one of those who superintended over the company in the past.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Chala: Yes, he was there. Check your records.

Interruptions

Mr Chala: Check your records.

Mr Speaker, the current Board Chairperson of Zambia Railways Limited will be able to explain to the Zambian people exactly what happened to that US$120 million.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for according the people of Katombola Constituency an opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion on the Report of the Select Committee that was tasked to scrutinise a special audit. This subject is so touching because it is merely a tip of an iceberg of what transpired in the previous Government. This is the unprecedented corruption that we have been talking about.

Mr Speaker, while supporting the report that has been presented before this august House, the people of Katombola demand that we appoint forensic auditors to try and get into the depth of the special audit. I think, what was done is commendable, but it needs to be followed up by independent minds because there was looting of the worst kind in the Republic of Zambia. We, who preside over rural constituencies, get so touched over such matters.

Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I want to begin by addressing the issue of the Eurobonds. Under the Patriotic Front (PF), the Zambian Government procured debt which was targeted at achieving particular milestones. A debt of US$4 billion was acquired under the Eurobonds. Part of this money was intended to capacitate Zambia Railways Limited by buying new locomotive trains. The trains were never procured and the money ended up in people’s pockets. This is very serious. The audit report has categorically shown that Zambia Railways Limited did receive the money to procure new locomotive trains, acquire new equipment and modernise the railway line. However, the money never reached anywhere, but ended up in the hands of a few individuals in the previous Government. We need to get to the bottom of this matter and try to isolate the people who embezzled money belonging to the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I thank the New Dawn Government for restructuring the Eurobond debt. This debt has been successfully restructured under the New Dawn Government. However, we need to put it clearly that the people who misused and stole that money must be punished.

Mr Speaker, I will also speak on the issue of Zamtel Limited. Zamtel Limited received money for putting up new telephone towers. It is so shameful that it is only now that we have been given nineteen towers to roll-out in Katombola Constituency, yet there was money that was previously allocated. Zamtel Limited was given US$382,923,884 to put up telephone towers, but the money went into people’s pockets. As the people of Katombola Constituency, we are demanding for further action because we are the recipients of the problems that were left by the PF Government through the embezzlement of Eurobond funds. We still have a problem with the telephone network. People still have to climb trees to get phone reception, yet money was procured through debt.

Sir, I think that the people who perpetrated corruption and stole from the people of Zambia must pay back. This can only be successively done through a forensic audit by external auditors and not auditors from the Government. We know the general tendency of auditors. They protect one another.

Mr Speaker, it is the same scenario with Zesco Limited. Today, Zesco Limited has a challenge with supplying power. We are agonising with load-shedding and people are trying to blame the New Dawn Government, yet there was money from the Eurobonds that was given to Zesco Limited. Zesco Limited was allocated US$642,335,498.40 from the Eurobond debt to buy equipment for setting up infrastructure for a nuclear plant, so as to address situations like the one we are going through now. The intention of setting up a nuclear plant through that loan was to ensure that in case of lack of rainfall or the El Niño scenario, like the one we have today, power would still be generated. However, the men and women that presided over the affairs of Zambia at the time decided to direct the money to their own pockets and as we speak, Zesco limited is an empty shell. They started employing party cadres in Zesco Limited. People were on the payroll for Zesco Limited when they did not work for the company and this is what has brought us to where we are today.

Mr Speaker, I want to indicate that the issue to do with the Eurobonds must be revisited. My appeal to Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu is that we need to get to the bottom of who stole from the Zambian people. As we speak, my people are climbing trees because of the lack of phone network, and they have no access to drinking water, yet monies were drawn. So, we are the ones bearing the brunt for the Eurobond debt. However, as I said, I thank the New Dawn Government for ensuring that the debt was restructured. Otherwise, I do not know where we would have been today.

Mr Speaker, coming to the issue of the Frederick Titus Jacob (FTJ) Chiluba University, it is so shameful that people can steal from themselves. There is this tendency of people to think that the Government’s money does not have owners. This was the problem that was precipitated and prevailed during the time of the PF Government. Money was allocated for the construction of the FTJ Chiluba University. So, where is the money? On the site for that institution, there is no visible structure worth even K100,000. Some of the people who got that money are in here today. They can even walk freely in the streets pretending that nothing happened. They keep saying that the advance payment on the contract for that university was a normal deal and the money did not go to any one.

Mr Speaker, I want to end with the Mikalile Trading Limited issue. The issue of Mikalile Trading Limited is a typical example of transactions that took place under the New Dawn Government whereby people were supplying air.

Hon. UPND Members: PF!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Andeleki: People were supplying air during the PF regime. Can you imagine somebody delivering a computer to a village where there is no school?

Mr Speaker, the Mikalile Trading Limited issue should be revisited through the special audit that I referred to earlier. This special audit should be forensic so that the perpetrators of such transactions or those who worked with Mikalile Trading Limited are told that there is no room for stealing from the Zambian people.

Mr Speaker, as Katombola Constituency, we continue to advocate for the strengthening of the law against corruption. Today, the law against corruption is not strong enough to deter would-be offenders. We know very well that the Anti-Corruption Act No. 3 of 2012 is so weak. The sentence for anybody who even steals K10 billion is just five years, and such cannot be supported. We continue to encourage the Executive to present an amendment Bill on the Anti-Corruption Commission Act ...

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Andeleki: ... so that perpetrators of crime such as corruption can be punished.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you most sincerely. I also want to thank the Select Committee for doing a wonderful job.

Mr Speaker, I have noticed that for a long time now in this House, the Auditor-General’s Report or reports relating to misuse or misappropriation of funds have become tools for political jabbing of one another, instead of learning from these reports and seeing how best we can look after meagre resources. While we are here, the people who actually carried out the instructions or transactions that led to the issues in the report are in their offices right now. Even when we leave Parliament at the end of our terms, we will leave them in public offices. Some of them are probably the ones who have even been appointed to the positions of Permanent Secretary (PS). So, the question is: What are we learning, as a country, from the transactions contained in your Committee’s report? I think, that is what the House should try to deliberate on. As was suggested by the previous speaker, we should try to enact laws that are going to help us look after our meagre resources.

Mr Speaker, I will go straight to the heated issue of Mikalile Trading Limited and what the report has talked about. It was essentially mentioned that the intention of the Government, particularly the Ministry of Education, regarding this transaction was good, but the question is how the implementation was carried out and whether that implementation makes sense. That is why I mentioned that we should focus on how best we can optimise what we are learning from these reports so that our people out there are able to follow and see how the Government is going about trying to ensure that these sorts of misdemeanours that are going on do not continue.

Mr Speaker, in this instance, computers were procured even before schools where these computers were supposed to be taken were electrified. Not even solar power was provided. We have for a long time bemoaned the tendency of schools being built without power being provided. After a school has been built, people only talk about providing power later on. At the time the tender for the construction of a school is being advertised, even the tender to supply solar energy should be advertised. Schools are only open for eight hours and, therefore, do not need so much power. Maybe boarding schools require more power. However, solar energy has worked almost everywhere.

Mr Speaker, in this particular case, computers were supplied by a private company to various schools, but they are not being used due to the lack of power. This is happening at a time when we have so many competing needs, as a country. For example, suppliers have not been paid because the Government has channelled resources elsewhere. I think, the lesson here is to look at how the Public Procurement Act is performing. Is it really supporting our economy by ensuring that the Government works in a structured manner? It does not make sense to buy computers when you know very well that you have no power to use them.

Mr Speaker, let me talk about road infrastructure, which has highly indebted this country. I have been on the Floor of this House on several occasions asking the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to relook at the issue of road contracts. Why should it be indicated in a road contract that there will be standalone time and interest on non-payment of invoices? Even at the household level, you can ask for a K100, for example, from a friend and promise to pay the next day, when you know very well that you will not pay the next day. This has now even escalated to the Government because that is our nature. We never ever pay for things on time. For example, look at the amount of debt that the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) is sitting on. I think that it is now around K3.5 billion, if you include the principle.

Mr Speaker, how does a poor country like Zambia lose US$187 million? I am sure that even our financiers and co-operating partners must be scratching their heads looking at how a country that is struggling to improve the income status of its people can lose money meant to construct an institution like the Fredrick Titus Jacob (FTJ) Chiluba University. How can we lose money like that?

Mr Speaker, as we are debating Committee Reports, we need to learn lessons from their contents so as to ensure that the people in the Civil Service, who are the implementers of programmes meant to alleviate poverty, do the right thing. We need corrective laws in place to not only protect ourselves, as leaders in this country, but also create a platform for the right things to be done. How can K100 million move from Control 99 and become untraceable? How possible is that?

Mr Speaker, I will end with a clarion call that let us make sure that when Committee Reports come on the Floor of the House, they become the basis for us to do the right thing. We have to enact the right laws so that we protect our meagre resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, this is one of those rare occasions for me to comment. Yesterday, I had to find time to look through your Committee’s Report. Then, I had to go to the Auditor-General’s Report because the advice was that when you are reading a Committee Report, you had to go through the initial report from the Auditor-General.

Mr Speaker, the report we are looking at now covers the period from 2006 to December 2022. In this report, the Kalabo/Sikongo Road is mentioned. Having gone through the report, I have seen that over 40 per cent of the money which was allocated for the project was spent, but when you go on the ground, you find that the Kalabo/Sikongo Road is not constructed. Where is the money because there is no road? There are potholes through out the stretch. The bridge which was supposed to be constructed to join Zambia to Angola is not there, but money was spent. Out of the more than K900 million allocated, over 40 per cent of that money was spent. So, where is the road? Is it in the air?

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I do not know what is wrong with us. It is not good for me to say ‘us’ because I am not part of the people who are involved in those issues. Some of us are not part of the undertakings mentioned in the report. So, who are those people?

Mr Amutike: PF!

Mr Miyutu: From 2006, who are the people who utilised that money?

Mr Speaker, there is a name of a contractor called Mikalile Trading Limited in the report. The name Mikalile is on many contracts, like for the supply of police uniforms, riot gear …

Mr Amutike: Computers!

Mr Miyutu: … and school requirements. What is common on those contracts are the words ‘overpricing’ and ‘non-supply of goods’, but money was spent. We are not talking about K1 or K2, but thousands and millions of American Dollars.

Mr Speaker, how can somebody plan to take a computer to a school where there are no Grade 9 learners? The school also has no power supply. There was an incident where fifteen computers were delivered. After some time, the supplier went back to the school and collected seven computers. Those seven computers have never been taken back to that school.

Mr Speaker, I feel that as Zambians, maybe, we are not meant for prudence. I wish the current President was in office earlier. Maybe this corruption, or the word which we avoid using in this House, would not have happened.

Mr Amutike: Masholi!

Mr Miyutu: The word which we do not want to use in here is the one which is applicable to this issue. Yesterday, an hon. Member said that Zambia is poor. So, I googled the word ‘poor’. It turns out that Zambia is not poor. We are just not prudent with the usage of resources.

Mr Amutike: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: We do not cherish the nation and one another. We only like ourselves. Those who have the mandate will put public resources in their pockets instead of allocating the money for the intended use. To them, they have supplied public goods. When people in rural areas are suffering, millions of public funds are bundled up somewhere and we know the money is there somewhere. It is in United States (US) Dollars. As we are speaking right now, the money meant for public use is in some people’s homes.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, for those who have been given the mandate to occupy public offices, such as the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and hon. Minister of Justice, this is the right time to bring back that money. It is there and is in US Dollars. It is piled up in some people’s homes.

Mr Chala: Why do you not catch them?

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, the report mentions that the auditors had site visits. So, it is not a report that was prepared in an office. The Auditor-General’s Office went to various sites. When I read through the special audit report, I realised that it is a practical report because visitations were made. The auditors even travelled to Sikongo. This means that the money we think is not there is in some people’s homes. For those of us who believe that the Almighty will work, let the Almighty work now so that the people keeping that money can be prompted to bring it back.

Mr Speaker, going through the special audit report, you can lose the appetite of being Zambian. Who does such things when people in villages are suffering and have no access to money? Under the previous regime, people were paying for examinations, boarding facilities and everything else. Meanwhile, money was being bundled up in some very few people’s homes. It is with disappointment that I say that that long period has robbed Zambia of its rightful resources, which could have been used for development.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu will be the last one to debate and then the Executive will respond.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Speaker, when we suspend the Standing Orders, I think, it is a quest to have all the time to delve into various matters.

Mr Speaker, I appreciate you giving me this opportunity to make a few comments. When we have a report such as the one on the Floor, it is prudent that we focus on its contents so that we do not just speak from an emotional point of view.

Mr Speaker, most of the issues that are contained in your Committee’s Report, like matters to do with the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ), which has now gone under, Zambia Railways Limited and many other institutions, have been reported before in other Committee Reports. So, I would like to just focus on other issues that have been raised.

Mr Speaker, the issue of Mikalile Trading Limited has been lamented upon so much. The issue that is coming out is the aspect of overpricing of items supplied by Mikalile Trading Limited, as an audit query. The report captures that matter on page 32. I will just extract what the report states:

“A review of the contract documents for lot 3 and 4 for the supply of 10,000 laptops and 30,000 desktops at a contract sum of US$39,000,000 and US$45,000,000 respectively reviewed that when compared to the ZPPA Price Index for 2021 and 2022, the equipment was overpriced by US$405,466.78 in 2021 and US$43,114,250 in 2022.

The Treasury submitted that the observation made by the Auditors regarding over pricing of items supplied by Mikalile Company Limited was noted. However, the Treasury added that at the time of signing the contract in 2016, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority price index did not exist. The Treasury added that the contract was cleared by the Zambia Public Procurement Authority at the time of signature.”

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I do not know why people are debating while seated instead of listening to facts. The report is very clear on this matter. We cannot start applying the law in retrospect. The price index came into effect when the Zambia Public Procurement Authority Act was changed in 2022. One wonders how a 2022 law could be applied to a contract that was signed in 2016. When debating these matters, let us not just have individuals in mind.

Mr Speaker, Mikalile Trading Limited is a Zambian company and most of the issues that have been highlighted in the report can be addressed administratively, as recommended by your Committee. So, trying to insinuate that there was wrongdoing is unfair. We have heard reports of foreign companies that were registered just in 2023 and they were given contracts for huge sums of money by the new Government. However, since it was a Zambian-owned company that was involved in earlier contracts, it should be an issue. This is a Zambian who has employed fellow Zambians. So, the issue of overpricing has been addressed.

Mr Speaker, the other matter of interest has been the Fredrick Titus Jacob (FTJ) Chiluba University. The matter is on page 38 of your Committee’s report and there has been talk about the advance payment that was made of US$33,750,000. This is what your Committee’s report informs us as follows:

“The advance payment was made in accordance with provisions of the commercial contract (Clause 14.2). Similarly, the project was financed through an Export Credit arrangement which required the borrower to make an advance payment to the contractor before the main lender could commence disbursements to the project.”

Mr Speaker, all these are matters that can be followed through. The challenges that were faced in the execution of this project are stated in the report. In addition, the recommendations made by the Government to terminate the project are well-highlighted. At the bottom, the information that came from the controlling officer is shown and it is stated that:

“Following the guidance given by the Attorney-General dated on 6^th March, 2024, the Ministry was currently in the process of terminating the contract. Therefore, the US$33,750,000 paid as advance payment would be recovered in full once a final account is prepared.”

Mr Speaker, that is what the report is saying. So, if someone had pocketed this money, how then is it going to be recovered in full?

Mr Kapyanga: Ignorance!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, it is important that when we are deliberating on these matters, we do not use emotions or propaganda, which could be churned out to try and malign certain officers, be it in the Government or at ministerial level.

Mr Speaker, let me now come to the issue of the Frederick Titus Jacob (FTJ) Chiluba University. The report is very clear, and we have not been told that anyone should be subjected to law enforcement agencies for arrest over this matter. What was interesting, and I must commend your office, is that you allowed the meetings of the Select Committee to be aired live on radio. The Secretary to the Treasury did respond adequately to all the matters that were raised in the special audit report. So, there is no need for hon. Members of Parliament to start speculating because the document has now become public.

Mr Speaker, those who had queries over this matter now have a response. Therefore, we must thank your Committee for making sure that recommendations were provided for all the matters that it dealt with. Where there is a need for particular officers to be isolated and punished, it should be done, but we should avoid audits that are meant to be witch-hunts. Surprisingly, the same auditors who were auditing these matters before are doing the special audit because there are other reports that are reflecting some of these transactions which have already been tabled in this august House.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Three hon. Cabinet Ministers will respond and we will start with the hon. Acting Leader of Government Business in the House.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity –

Hon. PF Members started walking out of the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, resume your seats or else we will consider you absent.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I will use my discretion and consider you not present in the House.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: If this continues, I will just use my discretion to determine which hon. Members were not present in the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: We have to remember that we are using taxpayers’ money and there should be value for money.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to respond to some of the issues that have been raised by my hon. Colleagues on your left hand side. Unfortunately, there is no courtesy on the part of my hon. Colleagues. Courtesy demands that when you make a submission on the Floor of this House, you wait for a response from the Executive, but they have decided to walk out.

Mr Speaker, you are aware that my hon. Colleagues on your left have been making demands that anyone who is mentioned in an audit report or Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) Report should be arrested. Are they today retracting their statements and asking us to not investigate or arrest anyone who is mentioned?

Hon. Opposition Members: Arrest!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Alright!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Mr Speaker, I will take the issues item by item and start with the more than US$35 million advance payment towards the Fredrick Titus Jacob (FTJ) Chiluba University Project. The report is saying that we must recover the money from those who are responsible.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta: From the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who was there!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: The hon. Member for Chienge, who hails from Luapula Province, should be ashamed – Ooh, I withdraw the term ‘ashamed’.

Mr B. Mpundu: Ah! Why?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Sir, the people of Luapula Province have been demanding for justice and have said that a university should be built in the province. However, our hon. Colleagues are now defending the irregularity highlighted in the audit report.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Mr Speaker, the hon. Members from Luapula Province and others have been saying that there is nothing wrong with the irregularity regarding the FTJ Chiluba University. However, your Committee’s Report is saying that we must recover the money.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chienge, avoid debating while seated.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Mr Speaker, if there was no irregularity, why should we recover the money? When there is an irregularity, other formalities will follow, including an investigation by security wings. I want to state here, as Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, that we shall follow this matter.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Mr Speaker, those who will be held responsible and found liable will be dealt with accordingly.

Mr Speaker, as hon. Members of Parliament, our responsibility is to speak, on the Floor of this House, on behalf of the people and not to defend individuals. I have heard some hon. Colleagues defending certain individuals on matters highlighted in the audit report. That is very unfortunate. Our responsibility, as hon. Members of Parliament, is to ensure that if there are any irregularities, those irregularities are corrected and those responsible are held accountable. I adopt the submission of the hon. Member of Parliament for Kantanshi regarding our responsibility. We should not be used as agents for defending individuals here when there are issues. A wrong is a wrong.

Mr Speaker, my ministry has been cited in the audit report pertaining to supplies that were made to the ministry. I want to state that we shall follow this matter to its logical conclusion on behalf of the people of Zambia. That is my responsibility. I am not here to blame anybody, but investigations will take place and that is what we are going to do.

Mr Speaker, I have heard my hon. Colleagues on the left defending the irregularities pertaining to infrastructure construction. They are defending the indefensible pertaining to the construction of the Lusaka/Ndola Road. Our hon. Colleagues were going to spend US$1.9 billion on constructing the Lusaka/Ndola Road, but we, who are prudent, are only going to spend less than US$600 million on the same project.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Mr Speaker, surely, should we be proud of such irregularities? Our hon. Colleagues are aware that there was even an advance payment of more than US$30 million on the contract for the same road.

Mr Amutike: Where did they want to take it?

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Mr Speaker, it is our responsibility, as hon. Members of Parliament, and the Executive to hold those who are supposedly have done wrongs to this nation accountable. We must have collective shame over such issues. We must all be saying that never again should we allow such things to happen.

Mr Speaker, if we aggregate the amounts mentioned in the audit report, we will find that it is more than US$500 million. This is a colossal amount of money which should have been used for the good of the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I want to state that we shall take a keen interest in the special audit report in particular. My ministry and all the security agencies will take appropriate action.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Mr Speaker, we need to ensure that the money that belongs to the people of Zambia is recovered. That is a commitment on the part of this Government. Once again, I want to state that we should never again ...

Hon. Government Members: Never!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: ... allow the continued use of this forum, this House, to scandalise innocent individuals. Just because we have immunity, we should not use this forum to say things which should not be said against anyone. We, on this side, will not say anything against anyone, unless there is a report and in this case, we are relying on the audit report.

Mr Speaker, it is our duty and responsibility, on behalf of the people of Zambia, to defend the interests of this country. That is why we are here. If we fail to do that, we should not be called honourable. We will be dishonourable Members of Parliament.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (on behalf of the Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane)): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to react to your Committee’s Report. First of all, before I go into the written reaction, I wish to comment on a few things raised by the hon. Members of Parliament who have debated.

Mr Speaker, in all my years in this House, I think that this is probably the first time that I have heard hon. Members of the Opposition debating in a manner that seems to be supporting those who have done wrong. I was the chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee for many years and at no time did we have a situation in which hon. Members of the Opposition, which I was, rose to support that which was wrong.

Mr Speaker, I wish to make reference to the 15 per cent secured on the contract for the Ndola/Lusaka Road and the hon. Minister beside me was absolutely right. The contract sum was US$1.245 billion with interest, and not US$1.9 billion. The project cost has now been reduced to US$649 million. I would expect that hon. Members of this House, if our collective interest is to safeguard the resources of this country so that they can be directed to work for our citizens, would take interest in these matters.

Mr Speaker, issues have been raised on the Frederick Titus Jacob (FTJ) Chiluba University and the debate that emanated from our hon. Colleagues from Luapula Province was supporting that which has gone, which is the US$33.75 million advance payment. Let me make it very clear that even if the Committee Report says that the advance payment was made in accordance with the commercial contract, it does not mean that the use of this money was proper.

Mr Speaker, what this Government is saying is that when money has been borrowed, it is reported on the balance sheet of the country as a liability. Therefore, we normally want to see on the assets side where the money has been used. The biggest complaint that this responsible Government has regarding the monies that have been borrowed is that there is very little to show on the assets side. I expect the hon. Members, those who come from Muchinga Province and the Northern Province, with relative to Nakonde/Mbala Road, to be equally upset when they see a road that was constructed at a huge cost falling apart within four years.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: The state of that road has deprived the people of that region and elsewhere an opportunity to use that particular asset. Therefore, I do not expect hon. Members to defend such a situation.

Mr Speaker, in the desire of the Opposition to defend such things, wrong things have been mentioned. For instance, the money that was given to Zambia Railways Limited from the Eurobonds was US$120 million. The Member for Chipili, Hon. Chala, went to the extent of saying, “Go to the current board chairman”. We know the person he was referring to and he is my friend. We worked together at the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) at the time he was there. He was not at Zambia Railways Limited at the time the Eurobonds were obtained in 2012 under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government.

Mr Amutike: Mwanvela ka?

Eng Milupi: At that time, the gentleman had long left Zambia Railways Limited. I can actually tell the hon. Member where he went. He is a decent man and he should not be maligned on the Floor of this House. I am talking about Hon. Hachipuka.

Mr Amutike: Chipili, enhance your knowledge!

Eng. Milupi: In fact, at the time that the hon. Member is saying that Hon. Hachipuka was at Zambia Railways Limited, he was actually in this House as hon. Member of Parliament for Mbabala.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Mr Speaker, there are many things that have gone wrong in our country and we need to correct them.

Rev. Katuta: How do we correct things when people are stealing maize?

Eng. Milupi: Mr Speaker, with respect to your Committee’s Report, allow me to start by thanking your Committee for its hard work and for the recommendations made to address concerns observed in public debt management. As the House may be aware, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has been advocating for transparency in public debt management through the enactment of the Public Debt Management Act No. 15 of 2022, which provides for the National Assembly’s approval on all loan contractions. Your Committee’s observations and recommendations to the ministry show the Government’s commitment towards upholding transparency and accountability in the general management of public debt. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning welcomes this level of dialogue and oversight.

Mr Speaker, your Committee recommended that all borrowings be made in line with the Public Debt Management Act No. 15 of 2022. Since the enactment of this Act, which was brought by the New Dawn Administration, the ministry prepares and submits the Annual Borrowing Plan for approval by the National Assembly in each year during presentation of the National Budget for the coming financial year. Further, the ministry provides bi-annual updates on the implementation of this plan and any deviation from the borrowing plan is subjected to approval by this House. The House may recall that not too long ago, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning presented the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan amendments, which show the ministry’s adherence to the provisions of the Public Debt Management Act.

Mr Speaker, to tighten controls regarding contraction of loans through supplier credit agreements, such as what has been discussed by various contributors to this Motion, the ministry is finalising the operationalisation of the newly-established Debt Management Office. This office will be guided by a procedures manual which will provide clear guidelines on ensuring that loans are only recognised as debt upon the successful delivery of goods or services, instead of the fresh air we have seen in certain contracts. The ministry will further update the existing manual to provide for possible flaws in management of supplier credit.

Mr Speaker, your Committee raised concerns on delays in the disbursement of some of the already contracted loans, resulting in failure to timely meet project implementation milestones. I wish to acknowledge that the issue of delays in the implementation of projects is of serious concern and needs to be holistically addressed. The House may be pleased to know that some of the steps being taken to address the matter include constant dialogue with the parties involved in the implementation of projects. For example, we have had country portfolio review meetings with the creditors and project managers. Through this process, the ministry has been able to unlock challenges and come up with solutions to ensure timely execution of projects.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is committed to adhering to the Public Procurement Act No. 8 of 2020 to avoid having contracts signed for which finances are not secured. We have heard here of some contracts that were signed with very little money secured and, therefore, did not go anywhere. The ministry will only grant Treasury authority to procure services after reaching significant milestones in securing financing prior to execution of the supply contract.

Mr Speaker, I further wish to inform the House that through the operationalisation of the Public Debt Management Act, the ministry has increased oversight of external debt contraction by public bodies. The utilisation of funds, cost of borrowing and debt carrying capacity of these public bodies will be assessed and a report will be submitted to the House for approval prior to contraction.

Mr Speaker, with regards to the concerns raised on the use of on-lent instruments to fund projects that provide essential services to the community, the ministry will ensure that the on-lent instrument is only used where it has been determined through appraisal that the project is economically viable and the project returns are sufficient to allow the public body to meet its loan obligations.

Mr Speaker, the auditors’ report has highlighted several internal control weaknesses, most of which are now being addressed by the Public Debt Management Act No. 15 of 2022. Going forward, the ministry will ensure …

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Minister wind-up.

Eng. Milupi: ... efficient and effective contraction and utilisation of public debt by strengthening controls and adherence to the Public Debt Management Act. The ministry will take proactive measures to address the unresolved issues identified in the report based on your Committee’s recommendations.

Mr Speaker, the ministry remains confident that the close collaboration of offices of the Accountant-General, Auditor-General and Controller of Internal Audit as well as relevant controlling officers will culminate into continued prudent public debt management going forward.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Mr Speaker, I think, most of the issues have been exhausted by my hon. Colleagues. So, I will not take long, but just to agree with the two hon. Ministers and a few people here (pointing at hon. Members of the Opposition). We need to remind ourselves that we cannot bury something that happened; never at all.

Rev. Katuta: Exactly!

Mr Syakalima: Sir, with regard to the Fredrick Titus Jacob (FTJ) Chiluba University in particular, which was supposed to be built by now, money was paid, but where did it go?

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: It grew wings and suddenly flew away. Sometimes the power of social shame must dawn on some of you (pointing at hon. Members of the Opposition). You are shameless characters.

Hon. Government Members: They have run away. Tell them!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, the power of social shame must dawn on people. If I were in the shoes of my hon. Colleagues in the Patriotic Front (PF), I would disappear from the House. I would not want to be present in this House. I was telling my brother next to me that I do not know the type of blood we have. My blood type would not allow me to stand up and defend individuals over wrong doing.

Sir, a week ago, the Permanent Secretary (PS) in the Ministry of Education refused to engage a supplier because the person is cited in your Committee’s Report and only started supplying computers last week. When your Committee was writing its report was when this supplier started supplying computers to the Ministry of Education. What kind of carelessness is that?

Mr Munsanje: No shame!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I repeat that the power of social shame must dawn on people. When the chairperson and your Committee were writing the report, a supplier was supplying computers until the PS told the ministry not to accept the computers. This supplier was just doing this to get money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning because nothing had been supplied initially.

Mr Munsanje: Masholi!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, nothing was supplied, but air. Now, how much can the Government pay for air? This world must come to its senses, especially our country Zambia. The little that the country saves is the money that goes towards free education. As my hon. Colleague mentioned, if we aggregate the money cited in the audit report, it is US$500 million. How much money does the Ministry of Education spend to provide free education and pay for the examination of children, who at one point were not writing examinations? The Government has taken over that responsibility.

Mr Amutike: Including meal allowances for students.

Mr Syakalima: Yes, we are also paying meal allowances for students. The Government has taken over everything. Where do some hon. Colleagues in this House think the Government gets that money from? So, money that was misused will be recovered and when it is recovered, it will go into the school system because this is what the Government has agreed to do. The K65 million which was recovered from a certain little girl went straight to paying for student bursaries. The same characters were arguing about whether the Government paid that money towards student bursaries.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, if the Government did a proper audit, we would discover that a number of such little children received huge amounts of money because they were all over. So, the money we recovered went straight to students’ bursaries. The President said that the money recovered must go to the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Board (HELSB) and students received the money. For the first time, the Government sponsored more than 5,000 students at the University of Zambia (UNZA). This was due to the money that was collected from the said little girl. If we extended the net, how many such little girls would we find?

Hon. Government Members: Tell us!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, it could be that twenty or even forty such little girls are with Government money. If we multiplied K65 million by forty such girls, how much would that be?

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, such a situation should tell the House how morals were degraded. There was an hon. Member of the Opposition who talked about the price index for suppliers coming later. What about morality? Is not having a price index a reason to steal?

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, where were the morals? Every year, the President would come to this House and talk about national values, morals, patriotism and principles. How could the President talk about these things when people were stealing and overpricing goods because there was no price index? Morality dictates that leaders must have courtesy for their own people.

Mr Speaker, let me terminate my debate by warning the people of Zambia to never go back to the past. Further, our hon. Colleagues should start wearing jackets of social shame. They should never stand up to speak in this House and then run away when we want to respond to them. Nonetheless, I know they are listening to this debate and so are the people of Zambia.

Mr Mposha: Zambians are listening.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I was addressing our hon. Colleagues in the Opposition on where they took their morals. They called Zambia a Christian country, yet stole from their own people. The Bible says, “Thou shall not steal and thou shall not kill”.

Rev Katuta: Amen!

Mr Syakalima: However, our hon. Colleagues wiped out public resources and then hid in Christianity.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: They should behave as Christians.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Rev. Katuta: Preach!

Mr Second Speaker: Order!

Before the House subjects the Motion to a vote, the bells will be rung because there is no quorum.

Mr Mwambazi: Mr Speaker, let me take this opportunity to thank my hon. Colleagues who debated the Motion; Hon. Binwell Mpundu, Hon. Oliver Amutike, Hon. Chala, Hon. Clement Andeleki, Hon. Anthony Mumba, Hon. Chinga Miyutu and Hon. Stephen Kampyongo. I also thank the hon. Minister of Education and Hon. Charles Milupi, who is acting as the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, as well as Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, who is the hon. Acting Leader of Government Business in the House.

Mr Speaker, many pertinent issues have been raised in our report and in the contributions of various debaters. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning highlighted issues on the operationalisation of the Public Debt Management Act and the establishment of the Debt Management Office. This is very important in ensuring that we take stock of our debt, as a country. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning also needs to come up with a benchmark on all the borrowings so that we have consistency in terms of calculation of interest, be it on the straight line method or libel.

Mr Speaker, many hon. Colleagues debated on how we should ensure that there is prudent management of the scarce resources of the country as well as the need to have morals as we execute public assignments. They also mentioned issues of project monitoring and evaluation. We have to know that the projects being undertaken by the Government are evaluated and are only carried out when the Government has sufficient funds. This would ensure that the Government does not lose colossal sums of money through certain arrangements, such as advance payments. As we speak, recoveries have not been done because the final accounts have not been audited to ascertain what has been done on the ground and what the contractor was paid.

Mr Speaker, hon. Colleagues also talked about the debt swap for fertiliser worth US$28 million, which was not done in good faith.

Sir, with all these issues, for us to ensure that the meagre resources we have as a country are properly managed, it is very important for the Treasury and Accountant-General’s office to ensure that there is heightened collaboration between them. We should ensure that we all speak the same language as we make public policies.

Mr Speaker, we are very grateful that moving forward, the coming in of the Public Debt Management Act No. 15 of 2022 and Annual Borrowing Plan will mitigate some of the issues which have been highlighted in our report, which are important. As a country, we need to ensure that we do not find ourselves in the predicament we found ourselves in due to poor fiscal management. So, there needs to be prudent management of financial resources.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move and thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY ON THE AFRICAN REGIONAL COOPERATIVE AGREEMENT FOR RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT AND TRAINING RELATED TO NUCLEAR SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology on the African Regional Cooperative Agreement for Research, Development and Training Related to Nuclear Science and Technology, for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Simuzingili (Gwembe): I beg to second the Motion, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kamboni: Mr Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference, as set out under Orders No. 206(c) and 207(f) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, your Committee considered the African Regional Cooperative Agreement for Research, Development and Training Related to Nuclear Science and Technology (AFRA).

Mr Speaker, after considering the agreement, your Committee has made some observations and recommendations which are documented in the report. I am aware that hon. Members of this august House have had time to read the report. Therefore, allow me to highlight only some of the issues that came to the attention of your Committee during its interrogation of the agreement and the resultant Committee’s observations and recommendations.

Mr Speaker, Zambia has been a member state of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) since 1969. Since joining the IAEA, the country has been utilising nuclear science and technology on a small scale in various sectors, such as health, agriculture, industry, energy and mining. However, the House should be aware that the country has failed to fully harness the potential benefits that come from nuclear science. I cannot fully delve into the benefits that were presented to your Committee during its interaction with stakeholders. Suffice to mention that the benefits of nuclear science can be used in the health and energy sectors, among others.

Mr Speaker, one of the issues that continue to plague the country is that nuclear energy is not safe. However, one of the aims of the agreement being presented to the House today is to provide for the advancement in research, development and training related to nuclear science and technology. As with all new undertakings, the importance of training, research and development cannot be overemphasised.

Sir, in light of the above, your Committee strongly urges the Government to ratify the agreement as it speaks to capacity building. Education and training play a crucial role in ensuring the safe application of nuclear science and technology across all sectors. Given the interdisciplinary nature of nuclear science and technology and the rigorous regulatory framework governing its operation, it is imperative that professionals in this field possess the highest levels of knowledge and skills.

Mr Speaker, currently, Zambia faces a shortage of qualified personnel in nuclear science and technology across multiple sectors, including engineering, physics, medical fields and agriculture. The existing number of graduates in these fields is insufficient to sustain the sectors’ needs. The agreement presents an opportunity for knowledge exchange and support in capacity building between member states. Zambia should use this opportunity to learn the benefits from countries and organisations that are ahead in the realm of nuclear science.

Mr Speaker, a glance at the existing policy and legal framework governing nuclear science in Zambia reveals that there is a need for review to align them to the regional agreement. This will enable the country to fully enjoy the benefits that emanate from safe and clean energy.

Mr Speaker, allow me to conclude by stating that the Zambian people need to be fully sensitised on the benefits of nuclear science to avoid speculation, fear of the unknown and rejection of the use of nuclear energy.

Sir, finally, I wish to pay tribute to the witnesses who interacted with your Committee for the valuable insights they provided. Gratitude also goes to you, Mr Speaker, and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move and thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Simuzingili: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, in seconding the Motion on the Floor of this august House to adopt the Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology, allow me to thank the chairperson of your Committee for having ably moved the Motion. I agree with the mover on the need to ratify the African Regional Co-operative Agreement for Research, Development and Training Related to Nuclear Science and Technology (AFRA) as it will enhance Zambia’s ability to develop knowledge and capacity to harness nuclear energy for safe use. The following are my few concerns as I support the Motion:

Procurement of Protective and Response Equipment

Mr Speaker, as the country embarks on learning and developing science around the area of nuclear energy, it would be prudent to deliberately acquire equipment for quick response in the event of a nuclear catastrophe.

Infrastructure Development

Mr Speaker, since Zambia began enacting laws around nuclear science, there have not been aggressive and deliberate measures to develop infrastructure around this area. Therefore, ratifying this agreement will help the country to enhance its capabilities in nuclear science and technology and address challenges related to nuclear safety and security. Ratifying the agreement will enhance Zambia’s co-operation and collaboration with other member states in the application of nuclear science. It is, therefore, of great importance that Zambia ratifies this agreement and join other African countries seeking growth around nuclear science for safe use.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I beg to second and thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, the people of Chilubi want to add their voice to the debate on the proposal to ratify the African Regional Co-operative Agreement for Research, Development and Training Related to Nuclear Science and Technology (AFRA).

Mr Speaker, since Zambia became a member of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in 1969, five years after we gained Independence, we have not invested in nuclear energy to interact globally. Nuclear science in Zambia is underdeveloped. We cannot make an argument on this fact because even the nuclear science we have been using in the health and agriculture sectors depends on knowledge from outside. It is not mainstreamed into our learning system.

Mr Speaker, we have not had any other opportunity in Zambia to ratify a regional agreement regarding nuclear energy. In talking about ratifying this regional agreement, I have in mind the fact that we have uranium in Zambia. We also have other nuclear-related minerals in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the problem comes in when you look at Article V of the agreement. Under Article V, it is stated that domestic laws have to be recognised in regional co-operation of nuclear projects. In the interaction between international laws and our legal system, what Zambia has taken is a dualistic approach, as opposed to a monolithic one. When it comes to nuclear science, the problem we have had is whereby the big ‘guys’ – if that term is parliamentary – control the sector and benefit from it. Countries such as Zambia, which are seen as the Third World, are told what they should do about their nuclear potential. I think, Article V of this agreement speaks to that fact. It talks about recognising domestic laws when participating in regional co-operation on nuclear science.

Mr Speaker, Act No. 34 of 2015 of our Constitution talks about incorporating and ratifying international agreements. However, Article V of this agreement states that regional agreements should be in line with the domestic laws of the parties involved. That is where the problem comes in. Due to the provisions in international agreements, most African countries have not been able to harvest much from their nuclear potential.

Mr Speaker, as I have already said, we have uranium in Zambia, and I think the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development can agree with me. Whether it is still at the stage of occurrence, we have uranium in Zambia. That is where the problem comes in; ratifying such agreements.

Mr Speaker, I also want to underscore that when we talk about factors that concern nuclear energy, there is a need for skills and knowledge transfer. If we have identified the problems, we need to wake up, as your Committee has pointed out. We have had these problems since 1969 when we joined the IAEA. We have been passengers in the agency and therefore, we need to wake up and pull up our socks so that we compete favourably.

Mr Speaker, we are currently having problems with hydropower because water levels are low, but we are sitting on uranium which we can utilise to generate energy. The international community always tells us that nuclear energy is dangerous for a nation like owes and that we do not have the infrastructure to handle uranium and other factors. I think that we have reached a stage where international players and stakeholders should relax the restrictions on nations with potential for nuclear development. They should just come in and ensure that nations like Zambia obey the protocols laid out in nuclear conventions.

Mr Speaker, we will be shooting in the dark if we keep on looking at science through events such as the Junior Engineers, Technicians and Scientists (JETS) fair, which is just a grandstanding arrangement. We can churn out university graduates, but at the end of the day, we will keep on coming out with nothing if the graduates do not help us facilitate the harvesting of nuclear energy.

Mr Speaker, I will do a disservice if I do not narrow my debate to talking about the Mines and Minerals Development Act No. 11 of 2015, which will be affected by the Minerals Regulation Commission Bill we are looking at currently. If we look at most of our pieces of legislation, we will see that they do not address our nuclear potential. Even the Bills that are currently before Parliament are not speaking to this matter. The Environmental Management Act No.12 of 2011, which was amended in 2023, also does not address the issue of nuclear energy and how we are supposed to utilise it.

Mr Speaker, in my closing remarks, I want to speak about the Energy Regulation Act No. 12 of 2019. It has equally not taken on board the issue of our nuclear potential. It is narrow due to the fact that it mainly speaks about existing energy sources, especially around hydropower, management of fossil fuels and other factors. We need to up our game to be able to participate in nuclear science. We should not just be ratifying agreements without preparing ourselves for effective participation in nuclear science. We will not harvest anything at all if we do not prepare our local environment for this field.

Mr Speaker, the people of Chilubi truly support the recommendations that have been forwarded by your Committee. In this regard, we would like to emphasise on developing national capacity to harness the nuclear potential that we have, as a nation, as opposed to belonging to agencies like the IAEA simply as passengers.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Mr Speaker, I just want to add a few words to the debate on this very important topic.

Madam Speaker, when we look at the year we joined the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), we see that it is almost fifty-six years ago, if I am not mistaken. However, even the nuclear-related equipment we have in our health facilities does not work. The biggest problem in Zambia is that we do not spend enough money on research. Similarly, we spend very little money on research on nuclear science. We are not spending enough money on fields or professions in our schools and universities that require research. We are, instead, spending more money on business and other courses which people think will make them rich fast. This is at the expense of courses which will develop this country so that we can have a stabilised economy and earn enough foreign exchange.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development knows that we have uranium in this country. However, if I asked him to tell me if we have reached the stage of enriching this uranium, he will tell me that we do not even process it. We heard of people having stockpiles of uranium in the North-Western Province in the past, but if we asked if it is still there today, we will find out that it is not there. The biggest problem we have, as Africans, especially our governments, is that whatever a white man tells us, whether wrong or right, we accept. The white people, especially from the West, have spoiled our country and the African continent.

Mr Speaker, today, we should not be talking about water levels in the Kariba Dam. We are supposed to be talking about the number of nuclear plants that we have. We have been told that nuclear energy is not safe. However, the same people who tell us that it is not safe are using it in Europe, for example. Ukraine, which is at war right now, has the biggest nuclear power plant in the world. That nuclear plant is being bombed, but nobody is saying that it is not safe.

Mr Speaker, my plea to the Executive is that we have an opportunity to address all these issues right now. The agreement we are talking about is on research and training and related to nuclear development. If we are going to ratify this agreement, how much money has the Ministry of Education allocated for nuclear science? I know that the hon. Minister of Education is a lecturer and I will challenge him that we need more research and training in this sector so that in the next few years, we should not be talking about low water levels in our dams with regard to power generation.

Mr Speaker, in my constituency, we are experiencing seventeen hours of load-shedding. We do not have power for seventeen hours, sometimes even for twenty hours. Some areas are lagging behind in terms of development due to the lack of power. However, it is business as usual because we have to wait for the Kariba Dam to be filled-up to provide power to the Zambian people, but we have a mineral which the whole world is looking for.

Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and hon. Minister of Education constitute an expert team to look into the issue of nuclear science so that we can come up with something tangible. We heard stories under the previous Government about Russians coming to help us develop nuclear power plants. Where are we now on that issue? There should be continuity of national programmes, despite power changing hands. It is good for the nation. If there was a plan to start something to do with the energy sector, can we see to it that we develop it. We cannot even defend ourselves because we are fifty years behind in everything. We need to start asking ourselves whether it is our skin which has a problem or it is our mindset.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Syakalima (on behalf of the Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati)): Mr Speaker, let me begin by thanking you for allowing me to debate in support of the adoption of the Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology in respect of the recommendation for Zambia to ratify the African Regional Co-operative Agreement for Research, Development and Training Related to Nuclear Science and Technology (AFRA). The report was laid on the Table of the House for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly on Tuesday, 30^th July, 2024.

Mr Speaker, from the outset, I wish to express my gratitude to the mover and seconder of the Motion. Your Committee’s diligent efforts and the comprehensive report presented to this august House are of paramount importance, especially in the context of nuclear science and technology. Its thorough analysis and insightful observations and recommendations demonstrate a deep commitment to the advancement of our nation’s development agenda in this crucial area.

Mr Speaker, let me also thank the hon. Members of Parliament who have passionately debated the report, bringing forth insightful perspectives. I want to assure your Committee that the Ministry of Technology and Science remains committed to building on this insight for the effective implementation and advancement of the country concerning the peaceful application of nuclear science research and development.

Mr Speaker, today, more than ever, there is a need for Zambia to have access to a broader network of research facilities and expertise. This will not only enhance our national research capabilities in nuclear science and technology, but also play a crucial role in technological advancements and the adoption and development of new technologies. We need a network of expertise that will improve various sectors, such as health, energy, environment, agriculture and industry, and also enhance nuclear-related training programmes and capacity building initiatives that are decisive for gaining benefits from nuclear science and technology.

Sir, as we strive to develop the use of nuclear technology, it is imperative that we become an integral part of the broader network of other African countries. This network promotes the exchange of information and experience among member states in nuclear science and technology, and the development of national infrastructure for the safe and secure use of nuclear technology. Such collaboration not only strengthens our national capabilities, but also enhances our global standing in the field.

Mr Speaker, I am pleased to note that the Committee Report highlights the numerous benefits that the ratification of this convention will bring to Zambia. These include access to technical support, expertise and resources provided by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and other AFRA member states. Such support could significantly enhance our capabilities in nuclear science and technology and improve infrastructure for the safe and secure use of nuclear technology in the health, energy and agriculture sectors, which are key drivers of economic development.

Sir, I must hasten to say that Zambia is already benefiting from these opportunities through the Cancer Diseases Hospital (CDH) at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR) and Zambia Agricultural Research Institute (ZARI), among others. The capabilities of our scientists and researchers in these institutions have also been enhanced.

Mr Speaker, as a responsible Government, we take note of the concerns of the hon. Members of Parliament and your Committee to ensure that all legal and policy re-alignments are undertaken in line with the provisions of international protocols and instruments. I am pleased to inform the House that the Government has already commenced policy and legal reforms in the nuclear sector. These reforms are aimed at ensuring that our policies and legal frameworks are internationally comparable. We are developing the nuclear policy and also revising the Ionizing Radiation Protection Act No. 16 of 2005 to replace it with the Nuclear Safety and Regulation Protection Bill. This commitment demonstrates our dedication to ensuring the safe and responsible use of nuclear technology in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, we are fully aware that nuclear science and technology applications are often viewed with apprehension by some sections of our population. However, we are committed to changing this narrative. Nuclear technology when used responsibly, offers several benefits in the sectors I have already cited, and we are determined to communicate this positive message.

Mr Speaker, given this scenario, Zambia’s readiness to deal with a nuclear catastrophe is critical. I must point out that this is the reason we are ratifying this convention and other conventions under the IAEA to ensure that all applications of this technology are undertaken in a safe manner and within the confines of internationally comparable standards.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to, once again, thank your Committee and the hon. Members for their work. I urge all hon. Members of this august House to support the adoption of the Committee’s Report. Their support is crucial in ensuring the successful implementation of AFRA and the advancement of nuclear science and technology in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, before I terminate the written speech, I just want to respond to the hon. Member for Nyimba by saying that we are continuing with the nuclear programme which was started earlier. Almost 200 of our young physicists are in Russia pursuing courses for advancing nuclear capabilities.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

_______

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER

LUNCH ARRANGEMENTS

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the following arrangements have been made for lunch from today, Wednesday, 31^stJuly to Friday, 2^nd August, 2024. The lunch break will be from 1300 hours to 1415 hours. The House will resume sitting at 1430 hours.

Hon. Members will have their lunch in the restaurant here at Parliament Buildings. Members of staff and officials from ministries will have their lunch at the Members Motel. Transport to and from the Members Motel for staff and ministry officials will be made available at the foyer by the main entrance to the Parliament Buildings.

Lunch for hon. Members, staff and ministry officials will be provided courtesy of the Rt. Hon. Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May I urge all hon. Members here to be punctual as well as the Whips to ensure that a quorum is formed at 1430 hours.

I thank you.

_______

(Debate resumed)

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member for Kalomo Central wind-up the debate on the Motion.

Mr Kamboni: Mr Speaker, may I take this opportunity to thank all the people who debated the Motion. As usual, there was the hon. Member for Chilubi, Hon. Zulu and the hon. Minister of Education. Their debates are well-appreciated. As we have said, we already have the nuclear programme and, therefore, it is good that people have agreed to ratify AFRA.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move and thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1356 hours until 1430 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Madam Speaker: I hope hon. Members enjoyed their lunch.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

_______

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY (Amendment) BILL, 2024

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, permit me to express my profound gratitude for allowing me this rare privilege and opportunity to address this House and the nation at large on the Civil Aviation Authority (Amendment) Bill, No. 9 of 2024, which seeks to amend the Civil Aviation Authority Act No. 7 of 2012. The Bill aims to enhance Zambia’s civil aviation safety and security profile. This will play a key role in attracting more airlines to the country and ultimately contributes to the Government’s aspirations to transform Zambia into an aviation hub for Southern and Central Africa.

Madam Speaker, Zambia is a state party to the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) Chicago Convention signed in Chicago in 1944. As a state party, Zambia has a obligations under the convention, including ensuring the safety and security of civil aviation within its territory, granting certain privileges to the aircrafts of other state parties, co-operating in the development of international air navigation and adhering to the principles and standards outlined in the convention to promote the safe and orderly growth of international civil aviation.

Madam Speaker, the proposed amendments will ensure that Zambia complies with the Chicago Convention and the ICAO standards and recommended best practices and addresses identified gaps in Act No. 7 of 2012. The following are the identified gaps that the Civil Aviation Authority (Amendment) Bill, No. 9 of 2024, seeks to address:

the current Act does not provide for the domestication of Article 83 Bis of the Chicago Convection. The Article assists with the structuring of cross-border aviation transactions by providing a mechanism for ensuring safety oversight of an aircraft that is operated from another state. Owing to the increase in the number of foreign airlines operating in Zambia, domestication of this article is cardinal to enhancing the safety of Zambia’s aviation industry;

the current Act does not provide for the domestication of the protocol relating to an amendment to the Convention on International Civil Aviation Article 3 Bis, which provides some mechanisms to address the threat posed by the use of weapons against civil aircraft in flight and enhanced security measures to protect the safety of passengers and crew on board;

the current Act has inadequate provisions to ensure that air navigation services called for under Article 28 of the Chicago Convention are provided in accordance with ICAO as established from time to time; and

the current Act has inadequate provisions on monitoring and enforcing compliance. The Act does not provide for authorised officers to inspect and have access to the manuals, certificates, approvals, authorisations, permits, procedures, technical files, personnel files and personal licenses in enforcing any of the two laws. Enhancing powers of authorised officers is cardinal in enhancing compliance and thereby safety.

Madam Speaker, additionally, enactment of the Bill will ensure that Zambia avoids registering any significant safety concerns during the ICAO audit scheduled for August 2024. For the information of the House, ICAO audits have aviation safety and security oversight capacities of its 193member states. ICAO assesses a state’s capabilities in providing safety oversight by assessing whether the state has effectively and consistently implemented the eight critical elements of a safety oversight system. The organisation also conducts co-ordinated validation missions for the states with significant safety concerns based on various factors, including risk indicators, previous audit results, deferrals, level of activities in the state and progress made by a state in resolving identified deficiencies, once sufficient information is received indicating that the significant safety concerns has been resolved.

Madam Speaker, since the European Union (EU) ban of 2009 barring Zambian registered aircrafts from flying in the EU airspace, Zambia has made significant strides to address safety and security concerns. During the 2014 audit, Zambia stood at 48 per cent in its effective implementation, which is a measure of a state’s safety oversight capability, and at 60 per cent during the 2016 audit.

Madam Speaker, once this Bill is enacted, it will complement the efforts of the Government and the Civil Aviation Authority (CCA) to continuously improve the safety and security of Zambia’s civil aviation industry. It is my earnest appeal for all of us to support the enactment of this Bill.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubusha (Chipangali): Madam Speaker, in accordance with Order No. 207(j) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, your Committee on Cabinet Affairs was tasked to scrutinise the Civil Aviation Authority (Amendment) Bill, No. 9 of 2024, referred to it on Thursday, 18^th July, 2024.

Madam Speaker, allow me to bring to the attention of this august House the fact that Zambia is a state party to the Chicago Convention signed in Chicago in 1944. As a state party, Zambia has certain obligations under the convention, which include, among other things, ensuring the safety and security of civil aviation within its territory. In addition, Zambia is required to co-operate in the development of international air navigation and adhere to the principles and standards outlined in the convention to promote the safety and orderly growth of international civil aviation. The Bill, therefore, seeks to amend the Civil Aviation Authority Act, No. 7 of 2012, to enhance Zambia’s aviation safety profile, as well as enhance efficiency in the operations of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).

Madam Speaker, the amendment was necessitated by the country’s scheduled continuous monitoring approach audit and the International Civil Aviation Organisation’s (ICAO’s) co-ordinated validation missions in August 2024. Therefore, it is imperative to address some of the gaps in the primary legislation in order to get positive results.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that the amendments are progressive and will enhance Zambia’s standing in international aviation. I will point out some of the progressive provisions of the Bill, which are highlighted in the Committee’s report.

Madam Speaker, the Bill allows the CAA to establish or acquire an aviation training school for public use on a commercial basis. This is commendable as it will have a multi-faceted positive impact on the aviation sector of increased availability of qualified personnel, which is essential for the safety and efficient operation of the aviation sector.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that the Bill allows the CAA to enter into bilateral agreements with the aeronautical authority of another country and consent to transfer to that country all or part of the authority’s functions concerning a Zambian registered aircraft engaged in international navigation. This is meant to ensure compliance by the aircraft operator with rules and regulations of that country relating to the flight and manoeuvre of aircraft and the use of aircraft radio transmitting apparatus. This is a positive move with regards to enhancing the power of the CAA.

Madam Speaker, the amendments in the Civil Aviaition Authority (Amendment) Bill, No. 9 of 2024, collectively aim to modernise Zambia’s civil aviation regulatory framework, improve safety and security standards and ensure compliance with international aviation norms. The improvements in regulatory clarity, safety oversight and international co-operation will lead to a safer, more efficient and globally integrated aviation industry in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I wish to pay tribute to you and the Clerk of National Assembly for the unwavering technical support services rendered to the Committee on Cabinet Affairs. Your Committee also wishes to thank all the stakeholders who tendered valuable written and oral submissions during its deliberations, which formed part of the report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, permit me to thank you for the opportunity to make a few comments. I do not intend to say much today because I think the context of the amendments and the report that the chairperson and hon. Member of Parliament for Chipangali have presented are aligned with my submissions.

Madam Speaker, the Bill has specific amendments. There is a request from your Committee that we support the proposed amendments and, obviously, this is one of those Bills which we do not intend to argue a lot or differ in opinion about. This is fundamentally so because we need to enhance safety in this very sensitive sector. This sector requires enhanced safety for those who are flying our planes; those coming into Zambia and those going for business across various countries.

Madam Speaker, the gist of the amendments is well-understood. However, the last point that the chairperson of your Committee has raised is the issue of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and one of the proposals was that we need to have a school that will be able to train our young people who want to operate commercial flights.

Madam Speaker, we have to ask ourselves how many of our young men and women coming out of high school today would want to be pilots. The majority of them may have that dream, but, unfortunately, there is no opportunity to acquire the skills and actual expertise required. We do not have the facilities available locally. If I were to ask how many of our citizens can afford to go to the United Kingdom (UK), South Africa and one of the countries where aviation training is actually offered, chances are high that very few privileged ones will be able to do that.

Madam Speaker, as I support the proposed amendments, I want to emphasise to the hon. chairperson of your Committee that many Zambians are not privileged to acquire the skills to start flying planes. I hope that as we make these amendments, we must ask ourselves how much money we need to set up training facilities.

Madam Speaker, Zambia is surrounded by many countries. If we had a good training facility within Zambia, chances are that many foreign nationals would actually come into the country to acquire aviation training and go back to their respective countries to fly commercial planes. The people of Kamfinsa support the amendments, but I think that we need to interrogate the issue of an aviation training school.

Madam Speaker, I know that the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation wants to debate, but allow me to summarise my submissions. These are very important submissions because somewhere in his constituency, someone wants become a pilot, but, unfortunately, the training is not affordable. So, here is an opportunity, as we amend the law, to go a step further by establishing a good training facility for the aviation industry. I know there is something that we have in Kabwe, but I think we cannot do more unless we provide the resources.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for allowing me to –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: That is what we are here for. We are here to do this job.

Madam Speaker, I want to start by thanking the hon. Member who moved the Motion. He is a pilot and a member of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO). So, he was, indeed, the right gentleman for the job.

Madam Speaker, the amendment Bill is intended at enhancing civil aviation security and ensuring that Zambia remains a safe destination. The Bill also seeks to enhance the operations of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA). This is the authority which performs an oversight function of ensuring that all aviation facilities, starting from aircrafts to various airports, are safe. It also conducts investigations when an accident occurs in the aviation sector.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is important because we have heard from the report that we are going to be audited by ICAO in August this year. So, what the audit report reveals is what most of the international stakeholders in the civil aviation industry consider. I heard the hon. Minister say that we want Zambia to be a safe destination so that more airlines come into the country. That is how it should be. That is why it is important that when there are certain occurrences, investigations are expedited so that we are not caught napping.

Madam Speaker, with me here (holding up a piece of paper in hand), I have information on instances that were recorded not too long ago. Aircrafts from another country were allowed to land in our airspace. They entered the airport and some of them were even allowed to access restricted areas near the very, very important persons (VVIP) apron. These are the kind of things that paint a negative picture when an audit is carried out by the international community. You may recall that some of these aircrafts where even found carrying firearms. These are the things that ICAO tries to restrict by ensuring that the safety of vessels and airports is guaranteed.

Madam Speaker, the foreigners who were allowed to fly into our country while carrying huge stacks of money could have been terrorists because that is how terrorists move. So, such incidences must be thoroughly investigated and the hon. Minister should render a report. Due to the fact that the aircrafts I am referring to were registered internationally, such incidences end up in the records of ICAO. So, the hon. Minister should strive to ensure that when such incidences occur, they are investigated thoroughly so as to be cleared by ICAO. That will enable us to avoid what transpired in 2009. You may recall that all Zambian-registered aircrafts were banned from flying into Europe, as stated in the report.

Madam Speaker, we must strive to avoid such occurrences and where lapses like that happen, we must see to it that heads roll. Lapses of allowing elements that seem criminal to fly into our airspace to try and transact using United States (US) Dollars while carrying firearms in their plane are very dangerous. The hon. Minister should not let such incidences go quiet. He needs to render an investigative report so that we are not put into the category of dangerous destinations by the global civil aviation industry.

Madam Speaker, I thought I should just add those few comments. I, therefore, wish to support your Committee’s report and commend the mover of the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Any further debate? Since there are no indications, the hon. Member for Chipangali, wind up.

Mr Mukosa interjected.

Madam Speaker: Oh, sorry, it is the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics. It is my mistake, the after effects of lunch.

Laughter

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the chairperson and the rest of the Committee on Cabinet Affairs. We are also grateful to all stakeholders who, obviously, had an input in coming up with an apt report on this particular Bill.

Madam Speaker, allow me to basically speak to some of the issues that the hon. Member for Kamfinsa raised. I would like to thank the hon. Member for his observations, but perhaps simply state that he may be preaching to the converted. The ministry is obviously cognisant of the importance of aviation training and is addressing that matter through the CAA. Among the many reforms we shall be undertaking is to ensure that our training school, the Zambia Air Services Training Institute (ZASTI), is reformed into operating in a more commercially viable way. Hon. Members may appreciate the fact that ZASTI was created to basically provide aviation staff training for Zambia’s own aviation sector. With the slump and decline we saw in our aviation sector post 1994, for instance, there was no chance for ZASTI to be able to attract students from within the sub-region.

Madam Speaker, one of the reforms we shall be undertaking is looking into this aspect and allow ZASTI to perform that very crucial role and to also take advantage of the civil aviation hub that we are trying to create. I think that there are many incentives to attract students from our neighbouring countries and beyond, and enable them to bring resources into this country. Nonetheless, I am very thankful to the hon. Member for that observation.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu could not have put his comments in a much better way, and I totally concur with him. What had happened in that particular incident was, indeed, very regrettable. This is something that we took very seriously and it did, obviously, result in a number of changes within the structure of the CAA. We are also taking steps to really enhance security systems that are going to look at our international airports especially. Indeed, we cannot afford to have Zambia labelled a dangerous destination. So, ours is to try and walk the talk and actualise what has been a going concern for various administrations in making Zambia an aviation hub.

Madam Speaker, I just want to say, once again, that this amendment Bill is truly non-controversial and non-partisan. It is actually a national priority that we make these reforms so that our aviation sector can thrive.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 1^st August, 2024.

THE CIVIL AVIATION (Amendment) BILL, 2024

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, once again, thank you for according me the opportunity to address the House and the nation at large. This time, I present the Civil Aviation (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2024, which seeks to amend the Civil Aviation Act, No. 5 of 2016, just like the Civil Aviation Authority (Amendment) Bill, No. 9 of 2024, which I just presented.

Madam Speaker, the aviation industry is dynamic, with technological advancements and evolving security threats necessitating continuous updates to aviation legislation. This Bill will also ensure that Zambia complies with the Chicago Convention and ICAO’s standards and recommended practices and avoid registering any significant safety concerns during the ICAO audit, which is scheduled for August 2024.

Madam Speaker, additionally, the amendments will enhance the operations of the CAA and Aviation Accidents and Incidents Board (AAIB). In particular, the AAIB needs to be empowered to operate in accordance with ICAO’s standards and recommended practices.

Madam Speaker, there are identified gaps in Act No. 5 of 2016. Allow me to highlight the critical areas that are being proposed by the Civil Aviation (Amendment) Bill, 2024.

Providing a Legal Basis for the Zambia Civil Aviation Requirement Part 14

Madam Speaker, in the operations and management of aerodromes, this amendment is being proposed as the Act currently only recognises ICAO requirements and not Zambia’s established requirements.

Introduction of Provisions on How to Handle Obstructions at an Aerodrome and Provisions to Reduce Wildlife Strike Hazards

Madam Speaker, these provisions are being proposed to enhance safety at all aerodromes, which includes measures to address the construction of structures within or around the aerodrome and the designation of dumpsites and landfills that attract wildlife and so on and so forth. These provisions will address the continuous challenge we face of constant encroachment and building of residential dwellings in or around airports. This behavior is completely unacceptable and should be deterred before it gets worse.

Enhancing the Authority of the AAIB During Investigations

Madam Speaker, the proposal is being made to provide a legal basis for the AAIB to exercise its functions in accordance with Annex 13 of the Chicago Convention as follows:

enhancing the AAIB’s unhampered Access to Aircraft Accident Evidence

Madam Speaker, the proposal is being made to provide the legal basis for the AAIB to exercise unhampered access to, and control over all relevant material and evidence, which includes flight recorders and air traffic services;

enable the AAIB Carry out Detailed Examination

Madam Speaker, the proposal is being made to provide a legal basis for the AAIB to carry out detailed examinations of relevant material and all evidence without delay relating to aviation accidents or incidents; and

provide non-disclosure of information to AAIB

Madam Speaker, the proposal is being made to ensure that the legislation has provisions to provide for the non-disclosure of investigation records to unauthorised personnel relating to aircraft accident and incidence investigations.

Madam Speaker, I wish to reiterate the Government’s commitment to continuously improve the safety and security of Zambia’s civil aviation industry. The Bill being proposed serves to protect passengers, crew members and the general public, while also promoting the orderly growth and development of the aviation industry. I, once again, urge all hon. Members to support the enactment of this Bill.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubusha: Madam Speaker, the Committee on Cabinet Affairs was tasked to scrutinise the Civil Aviation (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2024, which was referred to your Committee on 18^th July, 2024. In executing the task, your Committee consulted various stakeholders who made both written and oral submissions before it.

Mr Speaker, let me hasten to state that all witnesses who interacted with your Committee were in support of the Bill. A summary of the stakeholder’s submission is recorded in your Committee’s report for the consideration of this august House. Your Committee is also in support of the Bill. However, allow me to highlight some pertinent issues contained in your Committee’s report.

Madam, Zambia is a state party to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, also referred to as the Chicago Convention. As a state party, the country has to comply with the requirements of ICAO. This organisation provides standards and recommended practices in the aviation industry globally. The Civil Aviation Act, No. 5 of 2016, is one of the principle laws in aviation and provides for the safe, secure and efficient use of civil aviation in Zambia. Among other provisions, the Act provides for the grant of permits for air services and airport services, the implementation of a state safety programme, establishment of an independent aircraft accident investigation board, security for civil aviation, a national aviation security programme, air services, airport services and air navigation services in compliance with the Chicago Convention and its annexes.

Madam Speaker, as I alluded to earlier, the Chicago Convention, to which Zambia is a state party, provides standards and recommended practices for the aviation industry. ICAO, which has membership of 193 countries, including Zambia, provides oversight to its member states through a number of interventions such as the universal safety oversight audit programme.

Madam Speaker, past safety and security audits conducted in Zambia highlighted the need for the Civil Aviation Act, No. 5 of 2016, to be amended in order to address identified gaps and bring the law into conformity with international standards and best practices. In this regard, the Bill has provided, in Clause 15, for Zambia’s civil aviation requirements as enshrined in the Chicago Convention that each contracting state develops and promulgates national legislation and standards to comply with ICAO requirements.

Madam Speaker, the Bill has promulgated regulations to enhance aerodrome safety, alleviate wildlife strikes and ensure wildlife control in the vicinity of an aerodrome. It has introduced provisions that give an aerodrome operator power to remove any obstructions that are likely to be hazardous to aircraft operations. Additionally, aerodrome operators have further been endowed with the responsibility to take measures aimed at minimising collisions between wildlife and aircraft at an aerodrome.

Madam Speaker, the Bill has further augmented the provisions regulating construction, maintenance and use of aerodrome infrastructure. The Bill prescribes for consent of the CAA prior to an airport operator constructing a structure beyond the obstacle limitations. This is progressive as it supports the regulation against obstacles at aerodromes.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is confident that the enactment of the Civil Aviation (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2024, will, among others:

enhance the country’s aviation safety profile;

ensure compliance with the Chicago Convention and ICAO standards and recommended practices; and

enable Zambia to avoid registering any significant safety concerns during the audit scheduled for August, 2024.

Madam Speaker, your Committee supports the Bill as the proposed amendments are non-contentious and are crucial for enhancing safety and security, improving competitiveness of the sector and ensuring adherence to current international standards and practices. This will ultimately lead to the overall development of the aviation sector and enhance Zambia’s desired goal to be an aviation hub.

Madam Speaker, in winding up, your Committee urges the House to support the Bill, taking into account the concerns raised in its report. The Committee on Cabinet Affairs is grateful to the stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions. Your Committee also appreciates the assistance that it received from your office and the Office of the Clerk of National Assembly.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me, once again, to thank the chairperson of the Committee on Cabinet Affairs for bringing your Committee’s report to this august House on the amendment of the Civil Aviation Act. I am grateful to the hon. Minister that the specific reference to one of the mandates to this proposed amend is, obviously, the issue of airport services.

Madam Speaker, the House is aware that Zambia, currently, has international airports in Ndola, Lusaka and Livingstone. What you may have noticed by now is that the volume of traffic coming into our airports is not yet up to the desired levels. Since we do not have enough people coming into our airports, we are not maximising the benefits that are supposed to come from these airports.

Madam Speaker, in making amendments to the Civil Aviation Act, one of the issues that the chairperson referred to is airport services. As we support these amendments, I think it is important that we ask ourselves how we are going to ensure that we maximise benefits from our airport facilities, which were built at a huge cost to the taxpayers. How do we ensure that the international airport in Ndola, which is supposed to be a facility that should allow us to do business with other countries, is utilised?

Madam Speaker, I think, we need a strategy to address those questions. We should not just change the law and end there. We need a strategy on how airport facilities can actually help us maximise revenue to support our economy.

Madam Speaker, I want to quickly mention that the people of Kamfinsa support the proposed amendments and I hope that the hon. Minister responsible for transport will take note of the request that the people are making. We should not have that beautiful facility in Ndola not being fully utilised.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the Committee on Cabinet Affairs and all who made submission in coming up with a very thorough report. It was a good job, indeed. The chairperson of your Committee has pretty much summarised it all , in terms of what it is that we intend to achieve in this exercise.

Madam Speaker, insofar as the hon. Member for Kamfinsa’s comments are concerned, I want to say that the Government is alive to the fact that airport infrastructure was built at a great cost to our balance sheet, meaning that it was built, obviously, with debt. We need to refocus on what we are calling non-aeronautical revenue. This means that there must be other ventures that must be undertaken in order to help boost earnings from the good international infrastructure that has been built in our country.

Madam Speaker, I wish to disagree with what the hon. Member said about the volumes of people coming into the country through our airports. Since the New Dawn Administration took over, the scenario has changed. You just need to take a walk to the airports to see that we have surpassed the pre-Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID) levels in terms of air travel. In fact, more airlines have now been registered in Zambia. This is why we are being proactive and giving back some of the authority which is vested in my office, such as the issuance of air service permits and licences. This authority must be devolved to the CAA in order to enhance the effectiveness of this body as it is monitored by ICAO.

Madam Speaker, this is truly in an effort to clean up the aviation sub-sector so that we can answer to various challenges. It is meant to ensure that the dream of making Zambia an aviation hub in the region becomes a reality.

Madam Speaker, may I add that there are other benefits in addressing issues surrounding air safety. Once safety is enhanced, it is not just about the act of landing a plane in this country. Having safe airspaces entails that even the aircrafts flying over this country do leave us a token in the end.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 1^st August, 2024.

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Avoid unwarranted utterances or else you will be given a month to rest.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

THE ZAMBIA QUALIFICATIONS AUTHORITY BILL, 2024

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Interpretation)

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 7, in lines 25 to 28, by the deletion of the definitions of “State organ” and “State institution”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 – (Functions of Authority)

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 8, in lines 39 and 40, by the deletion of paragraph (c) and the substitution therefor of the following paragraph:

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 20 – (Sub-frameworks)

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 20, on page 15:

in line 26, by the insertion of the word “and” immediately after the semi-colon;

in line 28, by the deletion of the semi-colon and substitution therefor with a full stop; and

in line 29 to 34, by the deletion of subparagraphs (iv) and (v).

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 20, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill

CLAUSE 22 – (Application for registration of qualification)

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 22, on page 16, in lines 13 to 16, by the deletion of Clause 22 and the substitution therefor of the following Clause:

22.

Subject to subsection (2), an awarding body shall apply to the Authority for the registration of a qualification on the National Qualifications Framework in a prescribed manner and form on payment of a prescribed fee.

The Authority shall only register a qualification for a learning programme that is accredited by an appropriate authority.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 22, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 23 – (Registration of qualification)

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 23, on page 16, after line 24, by the insertion of the following new subclause immediately after subclause (3):

n awarding body shall, where a qualification is registered under this section, ensure that learner achievement records are submitted to the Authority within ninety days of the award of a qualification, as prescribed.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 23, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 24 and 25 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 26 – (De-registration)

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 26, on page 16, in lines 34 to 36, by the deletion of Clause 26.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 26, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 27 – (Variation of qualification)

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 27, by the renumbering of Clauses 27 and 28 as Clauses 26 and 27.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 27, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 28 – (Suspension and revocation of certificate of registration)

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment after Clause 28, on page 17, after line 36, by the insertion of the following new clause:

De-registration of qualification

The Authority may, where a certificate of registration is revoked under section 27, de-register a qualification to which that certificate or registration applies.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 28, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 29 – (Prohibition of employment, appointment or enrolment without verification of qualification)

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 29, on page 18, in lines 3 to 14, by the deletion of Clause 29 and the substitution therefor of the following clause:

29.

A person shall not employ, or appoint a person to an office, whose qualification is not verified by the Authority.

A higher education institution or institution registered under the Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Act, 1998, shall not enrol a person in a programme of study whose qualifications are not verified by the Authority.

A person who contravenes subsection (1) or (2) commits an offence and is liable, on conviction, to a fine not exceeding one hundred thousand penalty units or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year, or to both.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 29, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42 and 43 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 44 – (Regulations)

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 44, on page 22:

in line 12:

by the deletion of the semi-colon and the word “and”; and
by the insertion of a full stop immediately after the word “Act”; and

after line 13:

by the insertion of the following new paragraphs immediately after paragraph (d):

the procedure for the revocation of a certificate of verification or certificate of verification and evaluation; and

the appointment of inspectors and the powers of inspectors.; and

by the insertion of the following new subclause immediately after subclause (2):

Regulations made under the provisions of this Act may create offences and may for that offence impose a fine not exceeding three hundred thousand penalty units or imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years, or to both.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 44, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 45 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule ordered to stand part of Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE MINERALS REGULATION COMMISSION BILL, 2024

(Consideration resumed)

CLAUSE 3 – (Minerals to vest in President)

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended yesterday, as stated, the response to Hon. Chewe was that the Government still stands by the fact that that provision can be taken care of through a Statutory Instrument (SI).

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, before I say anything on the proposal made by Hon. Kalobo, I just want to draw the attention of the House to the remarks the hon. Minister made before adjournment yesterday. He said that he does not know why people in Africa just want to waste time talking about something when they know the position of the Government and the direction being taken. I was taken aback by these sentiments because this Bill is here for us to debate and make some changes, if at all we can.

Mr Chairperson, I concur with the proposal to make changes to the Bill so that we do not just rely on Statutory Instruments (SIs). If we have an Act that clearly states that the Government will have a 40 per cent stake of any mining venture in Zambia, foreign inventors will have to adhere to the law. Every potential investor in Zambia’s mining sector will know that this provision is not negotiable. So, we cannot rely on an SI for such a provision.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, the Government’s answer still stands that we can achieve such a provision through an SI.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Mr Chairperson, we note the responses from the hon. Minister. Yesterday, he said that we have a very serious Government. This means that it should be serious about raising our shareholding in the mining sector.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister also told the House that the way the Government has proposed the Bill is the way it wants the law to be. The Government cannot take a policy direction that is against the interest of its people. The people’s will should prevail. Therefore, it is a bad answer to tell this House that things have to be the way the Government wants them to be. If we have a serious Government, why is it scared to ring-fence our stake in the mining sector, as I am proposing?

Mr Chairperson, the reason we do not want this proposal to be addressed through a Statutory Instrument (SI) is because one person can easily wake up one day and change the SI. Currently, multi-national mining corporations are full of corruption. They will just bring a bag of Dollars and an individual will fail to contain the pressure of being compromised. That is why I am saying that it is easy for someone to just wake up and change the regulations. Going forward, the tendency of saying one individual should have the power of prescribing the regulations should come to an end. Looking at history and experience, mineral royalty and mineral wealth are what have built nations. A good example is South Africa.

Mr Chairperson, in the past, we had 51 per cent shareholding in the mining sector before privatisation. We owned the mines and had control. Our country developed and the economy was diversified using local resources. After privatisation, we lost ownership and control of our mining sector. We now have to depend on external borrowing for development. What kind of living is that? If we are to turn this country into a holy place of gold and hope, we first have to define mineral loyalty and ring-fence on our shareholding in mining ventures at 40 per cent …

Mr Chibombwe: Minimum.

Mr Kalobo: … as a minimum. Any adjustment can be made between 40 per cent and 100 per cent.

Mr Chairperson, to justify the proposal I am submitting, maybe I should give examples of what we have experienced, as a country. We liquidated the Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) and brought in the Rabobank of the Netherlands. The Government has a controlling shareholding of more than 40 per cent and I have never heard any arguments coming from our hon. Colleagues there (pointing at hon. Government Members). This has allowed the bank to progress. It is the same scenario with Indo-Zambia Bank.

Mr Chairperson, during the time of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government, our mining sector was privatised. From that time to date, we have experienced retrenchments in the sector. When the multi-national corporations running our mines say that they are going to retrench miners, they go ahead and do it, despite the Government saying that it will not allow mine workers to be retrenched. We have given so many examples on this issue, such that our debates now seem monotonous. However, in Bemba we say, “Apakomaila nondo nishi pali ubulema”. When there is too much emphasis on something, it means there is a problem.

Mr Chibombwe: Naupya iwe!

Mr Kalobo: Mr Chairperson, as we have said, having shareholding of below 30 per cent in mining ventures means that we have lost control of the sector. Having 30 per cent shareholding is partial control, while 40 per cent ensures control. We have been passengers on the boards of mining companies. Should such a scenario continue?

Mr Chairperson, we do not hear about any fights or conflicts on the board of Indo-Zambia Bank or ZANACO because everyone’s voice is respected. Issues are addressed in the boardroom. By the time board members walk out of a meeting, issues would have been tended to through a give and take approach. This is because no one shareholder has more than 40 per cent. That is why we are saying that we should ring-fence a 40 per cent shareholding in the mining sector. If we do not do that, then there is no need of even amending the law. What advantage is this Bill giving to us without such a provision? It is actually taking away our advantage in the mining sector. Anyway, I am not going to pre-empt other things.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, the reason this Government has decided to draft the Minerals Regulation Commission Bill is to bring sanity in the mining sector.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabuswe: We want to regulate mining activities. The Bill is trying to achieve exactly that. If I was to go into details, I would still refer to the past. It takes the first step to climb a mountain. This is what this Government is doing. We have given a way out in terms of the threshold on our shareholding in mining ventures. We are saying this is not the end of the road. We want this Bill to be as it is, but if the Government sits down and people feel that we need to have thresholds in terms of –

Mr Kalobo interjected.

Mr Kabuswe: I was not speaking when you were on the Floor. Please, do not provoke me. I will hit you.

Interruptions

Mr Kalobo: Ba Kabuswe!

Mr Kabuswe: Can I be protected, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are protected. I am observing what is happening.

You may proceed, hon. Minister.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, I want to give a very controlled response.

Mr Chairperson, the Government’s position is that we can achieve the hon. Member’s suggestion through an SI.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Question that Clause 3 be amended put and negatived.

Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 4, 5 and 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7 – (Board of Commission)

Mr Kalobo: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 7.

The Deputy Chairperson: I did not hear you, Sir. What did you say?

Mr Kalobo: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 7, on page 16:

in line 16, by the deletion of the word “three” and the substitution therefor of the word “two”; and
after line 17, by the insertion of the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph (d):
a representative of the House of Chiefs.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, the Bill has provided a diverse composition of representatives on the board of the commission. We feel this is adequate. As regards the representative of the House of Chiefs for purposes of effective administration of the commission, there is a window for the House of Chiefs to contribute through the sub-committees of the commission.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to reiterate that the traditional leadership is already part of the process of issuing mining licences. You cannot get a mining licence without the consent of a chief. This means that chiefs already have power at this point. For an exploration licence, a chief’s consent is not required, but when an entity wants to get into mining, a licence is only given if there is consent from a chief. So, the issue of chiefs is already taken care of. They are part of the process and are involved in strategic decision making. As for chiefs’ representation on the commission, that could be taken care of through sub-committees.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Chairperson, we do appreciate the explanation that has been given by the hon. Minister. He has said that chiefs may be catered for under sub-committees. He has further said that chiefs play a role by giving consent before any mining activity happens, be it exploration or actual mining.

Mr Chairperson, what we are suggesting is not for every chief to be part of the board of the commission. The mover of the amendment is saying that a representative of the House of Chiefs, which is a national organ, should sit on the board of the commission. Yes, chiefs can be included in the sub-committees, but they need representation on the board, which is the main decision-making organ. Therefore, it would have been prudent for their royal highnesses to be included on the board of the commission through a representative from their institution called the House of Chiefs.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the hon. Member’s submission, which is very important. I want to remind the hon. Member and the rest of the Zambian people that having the authority to either allow or stop the issuance of a mining licence is a lot of power. If the hon. Member applied for a mining licence today, it would require the consent of a chief.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to, first of all, explain the difference. At the exploration stage, people are just searching or looking for minerals. There is no guarantee that actual mining will be done in the area being explored. When the mineral resource is defined in a certain area and the explorer wants to get into mining, a licence cannot be obtained without the consent of a chief, unless there is lawlessness and corruption. So, you cannot be given a mining licence if there is no consent letter from a chief attached to your application,It is not possible. This, therefore, actually gives their royal highnesses power in the issuance of mining licences. It means that potential mining investors have to first go and sit down with the chief in a given area before even going to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. The investors have to explain to the chief that they have a mining company that has been carrying out exploration works in the area and they require the chief’s consent to undertake actual mining activities.

Mr Chairperson, in fact, it is important to go and see their royal highnesses, just out of respect, before mineral exploration can be carried out in a particular area. When it comes to converting the exploration licence to a mining licence, it cannot be done without a letter of consent from a chief. This gives chiefs the ability to have a say in the mining activities. So, that aspect is completely taken care of.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kalobo: Mr Chairperson, we take note of the hon. Minister’s explanation. If he was to check the activities of all the multi-nationals holding large scale mining licences, he would find that they are being carried out in chiefdoms. It is like the mining is taking place inside the homes of chiefs. So, chiefs being represented through sub-committees will not work. They are supposed to be part of the board of the commission so that they are part and parcel of the decisions that affect them and their people.

Mr Chairperson, maybe, the hon. Minister should explain to us the advantage of not having the chiefs’ representation on the commission’s board so that we understand and move on. As far as I am concerned, the explanation of the hon. Minister does not show that chiefs will be at an advantage. Can the hon. Minister enlighten this House and Zambians at large on that matter. I am sure, many people are listening to this discussion wherever they are.

Mr Chairperson, what is so difficult about including chiefs on the board of the commission when they are the custodians of the land where the mines exist? Why is the Government scared of having chiefs represented on the board of the commission? Can we have that conversation? Is the hon. Minister scared of the chiefs’ opinion or is the Government worried that they will stand for their people and that there will be no room for manipulation? Can the hon. Minister make us understand so that we buy into his idea.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, one of the greatest attributes of the United Party for National Development (UPND) Administration is that we are not scared to face our people because we have nothing to hide. We are a straightforward Government and we do not want to extend presidential terms. It is our hon. Colleagues on your left who wanted to do that through the infamous Bill No. 10.

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Kabuswe: They were going with bags of money to people. So, what are they talking about? They should not spin things around because they were the ones doing that.

Mr Chairperson, we have given a lot of power to our chiefs by asking for their consent regarding mining activities. That is a very powerful position. It means that no one can mine if chiefs do not give consent. The Mining Cadastre Department will not give a mining licence without the consent of a chief. If that is not enough power, what more power do our hon. Colleagues want us to give the chiefs? If one can stop mining activities from taking place, what more can one ask for? If we allow what the hon. Member is suggesting, it will just be a multiplicity of roles. This Government is very smart and it does not want to rule in confusion like what our friends were doing.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Question that Clause 7 be amended put and negatived.

Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 8, 9, 10 and 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 12 – (Disqualification from holding mining right and non-mining right)

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment after Clause 12, on page 20, by the insertion of the following new clause immediately after Clause 12:

Preference for Zambian products, contractors and services and employment of citizens

13.

A holder of a mining right or a mineral processing licence shall, in the conduct of mining operations or mineral processing operations and in the purchase, construction, installation and decommissioning of facilities, give preference to the –

materials and products made in Zambia; and

contractors, suppliers and service agencies located in Zambia and owned by citizens or citizen-owned companies.

A holder of a mining right or mineral processing licence shall, in the course of operations –

give preference in the employment to citizens with relevant qualifications or skills; and

conduct training programmes for the transfer of technical and managerial skills to Zambians.

A person who contravenes subsection (1) or (2) is liable to pay a fine of five hundred thousand penalty units and an additional fine of twenty thousand penalty units for each day during which the default continues.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the hon. Member’s concern on local content. However, allow me to remind hon. Members that during presentation of this Bill at First Reading stage, I informed the House that the current Mines and Minerals Development Act No. 11 of 2015 is being repealed and replaced by two Bills; namely the Minerals Regulation Commission Bill and Geological and Minerals Development Bill. As such, the issue which has been raised by Hon. Kang’ombe is well covered and ably drafted in The Geological and Minerals Development Bill, 2024, which will be presented to the House in due course. So far, the Bill has reached an advanced stage and it will soon be tabled on the Floor of the House.

Mr Chairperson, let me assure the hon. Member that The Geological and Minerals Development Bill has provisions for the creation of a new institutional framework and department to deal with issues of local content. We will have a directorate that will be charged with the responsibility of ensuring that issues of local content are broadly dealt with. Therefore, it would be amiss at law to have two pieces of legislation that would have the same provision for one issue. Further, it would equally be difficult to regulate that only one entity should have the mandate to enforce local content.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Chairperson, first of all, I want to put it on record for the benefit of everyone who is gathered here this afternoon that by procedure of Parliament, the Bill we have right now is the one which the hon. Minister is requesting us to support. According to the procedure of Parliament, we cannot be discussing a Bill that is not before this august House. Further, I want to make it very clear, for the benefit again of not only those of us who are here this afternoon, but also for those who are following this conversation, that the hon. Minister came to this august House with a Bill entitled the Minerals Regulation Commission Bill and the objective at part (d) reads:

“repeal and replace the Mines and Minerals Development Act, 2015.”

Mr Chairperson, this refers to the Act we are using currently. As we debate this issue, there is already a law in place which we are using to deal with issues of mining. So, there is no vacuum.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has come here with a Bill and we want to support it. The Bill is saying that we repeal the current law and come up with a new one. The hon. Minister has said that there is another Bill that will come, where the proposals I am making today will be captured. According to the procedure of Parliament, we are supposed to be dealing with the law that we have under consideration.

Mr Chairperson, the Bill which will come later, when will it come? Will it come in 2025 or 2026? What will happen to Section 20 in the current Act? I want to help my hon. Colleagues once again. In the current Act –

Interruptions

Mr Kang’ombe: Let me help you so that you appreciate the proposed amendment.

Mr Chairperson, in the current law, there is a provision under Section 20. This section has wording on two items. I hope my dear hon. Colleagues, who are hon. Members of Parliament, are following the issue that I am raising. Section 20 in the current law achieves two things. Firstly, it ensures that a mining company operating in Zambia and looking for a contractor to undertake any work must first look to a Zambian-owned entity. The same provision states that if a mine wants to decommission a plant, it must first look to a Zambian-owned company. When there is no Zambian company with capacity is when foreign-owned companies can be considered. That is what Section 20 in the current law we are using provides.

Mr Chairperson, under the same provision, it is stated that if a mining company is looking for an accountant, the first people to be considered are Zambians. When no Zambian has the requisite skills is when outsiders can be considered. If a mining company is looking for a geologist, it must first employ a Zambian with the required skills. That is what Section 20 says.

Mr Chairperson, today, I am proposing that since the current law has these nice provisions which help our Zambian personnel and companies, why not cut them out from the current law and place them in this Bill? As we finish our business today, provisions which are meant to protect our people should be captured in this Bill. This is a good Bill and the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development should allow this proposal to be part of the law. When the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and the Ministry of Justice feel that they are ready with the other law the hon. Minister is talking about, they should simply delete the provision in the old law but maintain it in the new law.

Mr Chairperson, we need to finish business over this Bill today. If we have to finish business over this Bill, we cannot allow the new law to not have any provision which protects our people, especially those who need employment.

Mr Chairperson, I do not think this is a controversial issue. The impression I am getting from the hon. Minister is that this is not a problem because there will be another law that will come in future. However, if the ministry agrees, we will not be doing justice if we leave out this proposal now. Let us keep this very nice provision in the law. When the other Bill comes, we will tell the hon. Minister that Section 20 of the current Act was captured in this new law. I think that is something that is not controversial and there must be consensus. We need to agree on things which are not complicated. Therefore, the people of Kamfinsa are appealing to the conscience of everyone here. We are coming up with a new law and as we change the law, let this provision sit in the new law.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, what I was explaining here is just additional information for the benefit of my hon. Colleague. We have even had a side discussion on this matter. This Government cares about local content. Additionally, I would like to inform the House that we are already working on a local content law through an SI. I am giving additional information because some hon. Members in here are projecting to the public that this Government does not care about local content. We do care.

Mr Chairperson, we have drafted a Bill for geological surveying and artisanal mining, where the issue of local content has been inserted. The Bill has already passed through the Ministry of Justice and it will soon come to this House. So, it is on its way to Parliament. We do not want to have a multiplicity of things. So, the Bill we are discussing now stands on its own and is sufficient.

Mr Chairperson, we are very committed to local content. Like I said, I have discussed the matter with the hon. Member on the side. So, there is nothing wrong with the approach we have taken. We want this Bill to stand as it is. We are alive to the fact that we need to insert issues of local content in the law and that will be done when the other Bill comes to this House.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I must say that I feel very proud, as a Member of Parliament, when I see hon. Members actively participating in matters of legislation. First and foremost, this is our primary duty.

Mr Chairperson, the concerns raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, who has proposed that we retain a particular section which is in the Mines and Minerals Development Act of 2015, is very valid. As he has already said, this Bill intends to repeal and replace the Mines and Minerals Development Act of 2015, where the section he is talking about is contained.

Mr Chairperson, the section in question compels the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, which enforces the Immigration and Deportation Act, to look at both Acts when mining companies are requesting permits for foreign human capital. The essence is to ensure that the ministry only gives work permits for those skills that are not available on the local labour market. Therefore, the hon. Member is saying that Section 20 should be returned in the new Bill to complement what is provided for in the Immigration and Deportation Act No. 18 of 2010. This request is simple and straightforward.

Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Minister is suggesting that he will bring another piece of legislation, we should ask him the rationale behind the decision to remove Section 20 as it is in the Mines and Minerals Development Act, which we are replacing with this Bill. It is important that we understand the rationale behind complete removal of that section and why it does not appear in the new Bill, which seeks to replace the Mines and Minerals Act where that section is well-anchored.

Mr Chairperson, like I said, the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, which is responsible for issuing work permits to foreign experts, has to look at Section 20 as well. There is no harm in just agreeing to put this section in the proposed Bill so that when the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development next comes back to the House, we shall be dealing with other elements. If the objectives of the Bill did not have part (d), we probably would have given the hon. Minister a benefit of doubt.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for his submission. I have also had side meetings with him over these matters and, clearly, we have given assurances that we will achieve what is being proposed in the amendment through the Bill that will come later. So, he can rest assured that it is going to be done.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kalobo: Mr Chairperson, I agree with the hon. Minister’s statement that we have been having side meetings over this Bill. Our expectation was that it would just take maybe two minutes for us to agree on certain things and we would be done with the Bill. However, we are seeing things that we never agreed on with the hon. Minister, hence this debate.

Mr Chairperson, Section 20(1)(a) and (b) and 2(a) and (b) of the Mines and Minerals Development Act are the ones that are contentious because they talk about preference for Zambian products, contractors and services. These provisions also talk about training programmes for technical and managerial skills transfer. In Bemba, there is a saying that, “Ichintu chintu umwene”. This means that a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Kalobo: What we are trying to do here is like having a bird in hand …

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear! Wusakile!

Mr Kalobo: … and then wanting to let it go and saying that you will catch another one tomorrow.

Mr Kang’ombe: No, you cannot!

Mr Kalobo: How can you do that? The other Bill the hon. Minister is talking about should have also come to the House today. He is also talking about using a Statutory Instrument (SI) to implement what is being suggested, but we are saying no to such an approach. What was the wisdom behind including this particular aspect in the current Act? That should be the starting point. We are refusing to leave this provision out of the Bill because one individual can be presented with a bag of Dollars to be compromised and this is what we are saying to the hon. Minister. We do not want to put too much power in the hands of one individual.

Mr Chairperson, can the hon. Minister allow the proposed amendment to be part of the Bill because if not, we are going to have a vacuum between now and the time he is talking about, which we do not even know when that will be. All of us here have no ability to foresee what lies ahead. We only know of the past. None of us in here knows what will happen twenty minutes from now. Therefore, we cannot talk about a Bill that is not there.

Mr Chairperson, we are speaking on behalf of the people. We are the voices of the people here. What we are suggesting is what the people on the Copperbelt Province, and Wusakile in particular, want. That is the will of the people in mining townships. The hon. Minister himself comes from a constituency where mining activities are conducted. So, can we agree on this matter.

Mr Chairperson, I repeat that a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. We may not have this opportunity again. So, let us not release the ‘bird’ we have now until we catch those five that the hon. Minister is talking about.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member and I want to assure him and the Zambian people listening out there, because I know they are, that this aspect will not be addressed through an SI. We are going to bring a Bill to deal with this issue. This is one of the things in the programme of this Government. It is part of our party’s manifesto and we will do it.

Mr Chairperson, if we are not there, life is about abafumapo paisa bami. Filyafine ifintu fileya kuntanshi. That means that even if we do not know what will happen in twenty minutes time, as long as the UPND Government will run up to 2026, the issue will be addressed. If we do not deal with it, then our hon. Colleagues can come and judge us that we never handled it.

Eng. Nzovu interjected.

Mr Kabuswe: No, in 2026, we will go for examinations. We will pass those examinations and go forward.

Mr Kapyanga: It is not even possible for you to win in 2026.

Mr Sing’ombe: Ukashala muli mwamoneni!

Mr Kabuswe: Iwe ukalaikalafye ku Mpika ifyofine.

Laughter

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, we have made a promise to our hon. Colleagues. I know that after this, we will ensure that this Government fulfils its promise.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I am following the debate. In my three years of being in Parliament, I have never had the privilege of moving an amendment until this particular opportunity presented itself and the reason is very simple.

Mr Chairperson, this Bill was sent to His Excellency the President for assent. I read the letter which came from State House addressed to the Clerk of the National Assembly, where the President directed that this Bill undergoes further consultations.

Mr Chairperson, there are different stakeholders who have concerns regarding this Bill. One of the concerns is that we have deleted a particular provision in the law. Let me just highlight for those who are not aware of the provision which has been deleted. In the current law, there is a provision which has been left out in this Bill. Allow me to read since I have the privilege to stand here right now and I will take my time. Section 20(1) states that:

“A holder of a mining right or a mineral processing license shall, in the conduct of mining operations or mineral processing operations and in the purchase, construction, installation and decommissioning of facilities, give preference to the:

materials and products made in Zambia; and

contractors, suppliers and service agencies located in Zambia and owned by citizens or citizen-owned companies.”

Mr Chairperson, this provision is in the current law, but it has been deleted in the proposed law. The Bill we are debating now does not have this provision. What I have basically done is to just copy this provision. In Bemba, we say, “Ukubula fye”. I have just copied nokubika muli new law or mwifunde lya new. I have just picked from an old document and proposed it as an amendment in the new document. That is what I have simply done. I have not created new words. So, Christopher Kang’ombe has not come up with any new words. I have simply said that this is not a bad provision, but why is it missing in the new law?

Mr Chairperson, I want to help my dear colleagues. Sub-section (2) of the same provision says that:

“A holder of a mining right or mineral processing license shall, in the course of operations:

give preference in employment to citizens with relevant qualifications or skills;”

Mr Chairperson, this is in the current law. I have not added any words. I have just copied and put it back in the law. So, my appeal today to my dear hon. Colleagues is that this is not a controversial provision. There are things that we can debate, such as having 40 per cent or 50 per cent shareholding in mining ventures, but we are just copying and pasting this one in the new law. This is my amendment and there are no new words that I have added.

Mr Chairperson, as I wind up my submission, let me quote the last part of that provision. It states that:

“ …

conduct training programmes for the transfer of technical and managerial skills to Zambians.”

Mr Chairperson, this provision is in the current law. So, I am basically saying that there is no need to include this provision in the other Bill that the hon. Minister is yet to bring to this House. We have an opportunity today to put a provision in the law that protects our people. Is this provision a complicated one? Is the Government rejecting it because Christopher Kang’ombe is standing on this other side? No, there is no need. This is about our people.

Mr Chairperson, have I brought any complicated provision? The answer is no. I am basically reminding our dear hon. Colleagues on your right that Parliament has given us this privileged opportunity to stand in this House. Are we going to be on record that we deleted a good provision? Are we going to be on record that we did not retain that provision? Is that what we should be remembered for?

Mr Chairperson, if there will be another Bill in future, even those other amendments that the hon. Minister brought can be –

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, you are debating very well, but you are being repetitive. From the time you rose to debate, you have been saying the same thing over and over again.

You may continue.

Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I was asked what I was trying to amend. So, I was reading for the sake of hon. Members and I think that they now appreciate that the provisions I am proposing are not complicated. I want to speak to the conscience of each hon. Member in this House. We can differ on other things, but this particular provision is not complicated. I am aware that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development has a way in which it would want to work, but can this provision be retained. The House will support the ministry when it brings the next Bill. I am also aware that there will be other good things that will need the support of the House.

Mr Chairperson, on this particular amendment, I seek the indulgence of everyone gathered here to support it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, the Government is very flexible. We have given assurance that we want to achieve what hon. Members have talked about in a different style. The Government wants the Bill that has been brought to the House today to pass and achieve all the issues contained therein.

Mr Chairperson, one thing that I would like to remind the House is that the Citizen Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Act also talks about such issues. It clearly states what the Government needs to do. However, past Governments were not religious about such laws. The New Dawn Government wants to be religious in following these laws. The provisions in the Citizen Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Act are very clear. These provisions take care of all the issues raised by the hon. Member. The problem was that the laws were neglected by previous Governments, but this Government will follow them to the letter. The Government will achieve what it intends to achieve.

Mr Chairperson, it is for this reason that the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development works closely with the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development. The Government wants to achieve preference for the citizens of Zambia in various jurisdictions, including the mining sector.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to augment the arguments that hon. Colleagues have made on this amendment to the Bill.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has promised that the proposed provisions will appear in the Bill that has not yet been seen by the House. If that Bill was treated with the urgency and importance attached to the Bill the House is currently debating, the two Bills would have been moving at the same pace. My worry is the gap that will be created once this Bill passes. The moment this Bill is assented to, the current Mines and Minerals Development Act will be repealed and it will stop being in effect. This is the Act which guarantees that small and medium enterprises (SMEs) have business deals with the mining companies. The law currently in place provides opportunities for people to be employed in the mines.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister is aware of the kind of mining investors that the Government is dealing with. Even with the law in place, mining investors do not give the required opportunities for local contractors and suppliers and employment. They still bring their own contractors to do business with them, side-lining our country’s SMEs. They still bring their own staff to take up positions which Zambians are capable of occupying even with the law that is there.

Mr Chairperson, imagine a situation in which there is a gap in the law. The SMEs that want to do business with foreign investors will be chased away at the gate. They will be no law that will compel mining companies to entertain SMEs and sit with them at the table to give them opportunities. The cry of every Zambian is that the country must benefit from the mineral resources that it has. If you cannot be employed, you can at least have an opportunity to supply or be contracted by the mining companies. Hence, the current Mines and Minerals Development Act of 2015 provided Section 20 to ensure that Zambians in their individual capacity and SMEs can have a share of our mineral wealth.

Mr Chairperson, the gap that will exist will push Zambians away from the mineral wealth and leave investors free to do as they wish. There will be no law that will compel investors to hire or contract a Zambian to supply even things like stationary or offer secretarial jobs. They will come with their own chain of suppliers, which will exclude Zambians from the beginning to the end. Further, employment in the mining sector will exclude Zambians. Everything will be at the mercy of mining investors.

Mr Chairperson, the Government should, therefore, allow this amendment now. Whenever the other Bill the hon. Minister has talked about comes to the House, we can remove this provision because it would have been taken care of. After all, the House is still dealing with the mining sector. We can remove this provision from the Bill that is yet to come to the House, if it is included in this Bill.

Mr Chairperson, we should not create a gap in the law. Let us protect the Zambian suppliers, contractors and people looking for employment by continuously covering their interests in the existing law. A gap would bring chaos, especially in the Copperbelt Province, where people look for opportunities to supply and do business with the mining companies. So, I repeat that we should not allow a gap to exist in the law.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, I made it clear that there will be no gap because there have not been any gaps. This is why I referred to the Citizen Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Act, which also takes care of Zambians. The Government is not trying to alienate its own people. That is not the spirit in which this Bill is being proposed. We have laws, such as the Citizen Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Act, which take care of all the issues that the hon. Member has raised. That Act is comprehensive and takes care of all that.

Mr Chairperson, the UPND Government created the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development because small and medium business owners were not taken care of in the past. So, there will be no gap, whatsoever, and the people of Zambia must rest assured about that.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I just want to respond to some of the issues that have been raised by my hon. Colleagues pertaining to a vacuum that might be occasioned as a result of repealing the Mines and Minerals Development Act.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to assure this House and the nation that there will be no vacuum. There is no person who is not a citizen of Zambia who can be employed in the country without a work permit given by the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. Our people must be assured that there will be no vacuum in the law. Even if we delete Section 20 in the Mines and Minerals Development Act, whoever would want to bring in foreign labour in the country will have to apply to the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security through the Department of Immigration to be granted a work permit. That is the position of the law.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: The Bill has been over-debated. However, there has been an omission of an Independent hon. Member.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Chairperson, I have heard the debates and I earlier debated this important Bill. I come from the Copperbelt Province. I was born and bred there.

Mr Chairperson, before investors come to invest in this country, they first study our laws to see the loopholes. Our people are not treated according to the law because of the loopholes. The issue of local content, as outlined in Section 20 of the Mines and Minerals Development Act, is very important. If we are repealing and amending the law, what is the essence? The essence is to extinguish the shortfalls or issues which the current law does not address. An important provision in the Mines and Minerals Development Act has not been included in the Minerals Regulation Commission Bill. I do not know where the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has an issue because this provision was in the previous law. It looked at the interest of our citizens and, therefore, it is compelling that we retain it in the new law.

Mr Chairperson, the Citizen Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Act is a subsequent law. I think that it is important for us to protect our local manufacturing industries and our citizens. We need to maintain Section 20 in the law to ensure that our people are well-taken care of. If our local products are not consumed in the mines and other sectors, and we give preference to imported products, how then can we talk about industrialisation? I think, it is important to protect local content to ensure that the people endowed with mineral resources also benefit.

Mr Chairperson, there is also the issue of 20 per cent of works in the mining sector being sub-contracted to Zambian-owned companies. This is not provided for in any piece of legislation to be enforced on anybody. However, it is important to implement this policy to protect local industries.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of local content is already addressed in the law. Therefore, I do not see the contention. It is important to retain what is already provided in the law to protect our people, unless there are other issues which we do not understand.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, I have heard the hon. Members very clearly. I think, what is important is the assurance that the Government is giving. What is being proposed will be dealt with in the Bill that will come later. As I said, the Citizen Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Act takes care of the issue of local content. That is the purpose of the Act. It is there to promote local content.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: The last hon. Member to debate on this issue will be Mr Miyutu.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, the current Constitution is referred to as the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, No. 2 of 2016. This amendment Act of the Constitution, which was assented to on 5^th January, 2016, delineated hon. Members of Parliament from councils. At the moment, hon. Members of Parliament are crying to be part of councils. Where was that mistake made? It was within these walls here. It was done in these walls with this very roof.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: It was done right here.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Kang’ombe read a particular statement. I will not read that statement, but I want to mention that it was about Zambian citizens. This Parliament is for Zambian citizens and the laws should be made for them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Miyutu!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, some time back, I stood here and said that Governments are meant to serve the have-nots. That is why Governments exist. They are meant to protect the less privileged.

Mr Chairperson, most of us have two hands. If you have one hand, you are disabled. A lame person is a human being with one hand. Naturally, we are meant to have two hands. I am wondering why the hon. Minister is not referring to the law being repealed. He referred to the Citizen Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Act. However, these two do not match. One deals with minerals, while the other relates to general business. When it comes to local content, why are we repealing the law related to mining to just remain with the Citizens Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Act? Why are we doing this? The hon. Minister is contradicting himself.

Mr B. Mpundu: Ebaume aba!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we do not have a mine in Kalabo at the moment. However, nobody knows what will come in future. Who knew that there would be gold in Mumbwa? Who knew that there would be gold in Kasenseli? Who knew that there would be lithium in Mapatizya? Who knew that there would be sugilite in Serenje? So, nobody knows the future. Right now, exploration is going on in various places.

Mr Chairperson, for the sake of the Zambian citizens, let us make laws to protect them. I urge the Government to take that into consideration. If I had the power, I would not temper with a law that is trying to protect the interest of the Zambian people. Therefore, I do not want to be part of the group that is going to reject this amendment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: I do not want my soul to be part of this because we are here to serve our citizens.

Mr Chairperson, let us ask ourselves why the President did not assent to this Bill initially. In his letter to this House, which Hon. Kang’ombe referred to, the President said that the Bill had to come back for further consultations. Indirectly, the President was telling us to look at the interest of disabled people, for instance. However, here we are in this House trying to ignore that directive. When we walk out of here, we will find the people we are ignoring in the law we are considering today. What are we going to say?

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I want to urge my hon. Colleagues that let us not throw away what we already have. We already have the law in place.

Mr Chairperson, the Government is saying that there will be no gap. What does a gap mean? A gap means space which is not occupied. The space right now is occupied, but we are removing what occupies it. In the English language, when you remove something from where it was, that space becomes unoccupied. When space is not occupied, it becomes a gap. So, why are we creating a gap? I want somebody to explain to me why we want to create a gap.

Mr Chairperson, procrastination is defined as deliberate delay. Why should we throw away what we have in place already? We want to throw something away and then run to catch it. A zebra does not have horns. What made a zebra not to have horns is that it thought it was fast at running. It did not know that other animals can run faster than it. That is why today zebras have no horns. So, let us not throw away what we have in hand.

Mr Chairperson, in short, look here boss, I am here for the people of Zambia. I am not here for any individual. In summary, I am going to stand with the law that is sealing a gap. That is the law I am going to stand for. What Hon. Kang’ombe has read is what I am going to support because it is meant to protect the interest of the Zambian citizens.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chisanga interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not debate while seated. Mr Chisanga, do not do that.

Mr B. Mpundu: Mwaume sana!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, looking at the flow of debate, I seek leave of the House to defer consideration of the Bill to tomorrow.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members: Ulimwaume sana iwe!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

The deferment of debate on the Bill, by leave, accordingly granted.

Mr Kapyanga: It is a listening Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Zambia Qualifications Authority Bill, 2024.

Report Stage now.

REPORT STAGE

The Zambia Qualifications Authority Bill, 2024

Report adopted.

Third Reading now.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Zambia Qualifications Authority Bill, 2024

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Madam Speaker, I have to report to the House that consideration of the Minerals Regulation Commission Bill, 2024, has been deferred to tomorrow.

Madam Speaker: Day for consideration of the report?

Mr Kabuswe: Tomorrow, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Consideration of the report to be taken tomorrow.

_______

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

MEETING ON CONSTITUENCIES SEVERELY AFFECTED BY THE DROUGHT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, you may recall that the Office of the Vice-President had planned to hold a meeting on Tuesday, 30^th July, 2024 with hon. Members of Parliament from the eighty-four districts which have been severely affected by the drought in the 2023/2024 Farming Season. The objective of the meeting was to discuss strategies for the distribution of relief food within the respective constituencies with Her Honour the Vice-President.

I wish to inform the House that the meeting will now take place on Thursday, 1^st August, 2024, which is tomorrow, soon after adjournment. The meeting will be held in the Auditorium here at Parliament Buildings. All hon. Members are encouraged to attend the meeting, including those whose constituencies are not directly affected by the drought. Kindly, note that attendance of the meeting is on a voluntary basis.

I thank you.

_______

Madam Speaker: The hon. Acting Leader of Government Business –

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Madam Speaker: Oh, sorry. Is there a matter, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, it is just a procedural matter related to the Bill which has just been deferred for consideration tomorrow. As you were posing the question to the hon. Minister with regard to the Report Stage, which should only be posed tomorrow after the Bill has been concluded, the hon. Minister went on to say that consideration of the report will be done tomorrow. So, just to clear the record, the procedure should have been for the hon. Minister to indicate that consideration of the Bill at Committee Stage will continue, rather than going straight to consider the report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member. So, the Bill at Committee Stage is deferred to tomorrow. Only after we have gone through the process is when the report will be considered.

Mr Kampyongo indicated assent.

_______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1714 hours until 0900 hours on Thursday, 1^st August, 2024.

____________

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