Friday, 19^th July, 2024

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM MAAMBA SECONDARY SCHOOL IN SINAZONGWE DISTRICT

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of pupils and teachers from Maamba Secondary School in Sinazongwe District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome them into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

YOUNG FARMERS FROM BWEENGWA

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of young farmers from Bweengwa, in Monze District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome them into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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BUSINESS STATEMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the House Business Committee met on Thursday, 18^th July, 2024 to determine and schedule Business of the House for the period 23^rd July, 2024 to 2^nd August, 2024. Accordingly, the House Business Committee resolved to lay before the House the following business for consideration for the next two weeks:

Announcements

The Hon. Speaker may make announcements to the House, if there will be any.

Rulings

The Hon. Speaker may render Rulings, if there will be any.

Ministerial Statements

Hon. Ministers may render Ministerial Statements, if there will be any.

Bills

The Bills listed hereunder will be considered:

1. The Zambia Qualification Authority Bill, No. 7 of 2024, will come up for Second Reading on Tuesday, 23^rd July, 2024;
2. The Minerals Regulation Commission Bill, No. 1 of 2024, will come up at Committee Stage on 23^rd July, 2024; and
3. The Human Rights Commission Bill No. 8 of 2023. This will be at Committee Stage, and the date is yet to be determined.

Reports on International Conferences

The Report of the Zambian Delegation to the Fifty-Fifth  (Southern African Development Community-Parliamentary Forum (SADC-PF) Plenary Assembly held in Luanda, Angola from 1^st to 7^th July, 2024 will be considered on Friday, 26^th July, 2024.

Parliamentary Committee Reports

The following Committee Reports are scheduled for consideration during the period:

1. Report of the Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism on the International Agreements on the Convention on the Protection and Use of Transportation Watercourses and International Lakes. This will be considered on Tuesday, 23^rd July, 2024;
2. Report of the Committee on Parastatal Bodies on the Report of the Auditor-General on Accounts of Parastatal Bodies and other Statutory Institutions for the financial year ended 31^st December, 2022. This will be considered Wednesday, 24^th July, 2024;
3. Reforms and Modernisation Committee on the Capitalisation of Artificial Intelligence to Enhance Efficiency in the Zambian Parliament. This will be considered on Thursday, 25^th July, 2024;
4. Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters on the International Agreement on Eliminating Violence and Harassment in the World of Work. This will be considered on Thursday, 25^th July, 2024;
5. Select Committee on the Special Report of the Auditor-General on External Debt of the Republic of Zambia for the period 1^st January, 2006 to 31^st December, 2022. This will be considered on Friday, 26^th July, 2024;
6. Committee on Transport, Works and Supply on the Nacala Development Corridor Agreement. This will be considered on Tuesday, 30^th July, 2024;
7. Committee on Transport, Works and Supply on the Central Corridor Transit Transportation Facilitation Agreement. This will be considered on Tuesday, 30^th July, 2024;
8. Committee on Transport, Works and Supply on the Beira Development Corridor Agreement. This will be considered on Tuesday, 30^th July, 2024;
9. Committee on Local Government Accounts on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of Local Authorities for the Financial Year ended 31^st December, 2022. This will be considered on Wednesday, 31^st July, 2024;
10. Committee on Local Government Accounts on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for the Financial Year ended 3st December, 2022. This will be considered on Thursday, 1^st August, 2024; and
11. Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism on the Special Audit Report of the Auditor-General on the Procurement and Management of Petroleum Products for the period 1^st January, 2019 to 31^st December, 2022. This will be considered on Friday, 2^nd August, 2024.                        

 Questions

Hon. Ministers will respond to sixteen Questions for Oral Answer as set out hereunder. The details of the Questions are contained in the Notices of Questions circulated to all hon. Members and other stakeholders. However, questions may not be put on the Order Paper when there are requests for Ministerial Statements in order to accord more time for reports.

Suspension of Standing Orders

Madam Speaker, on Tuesday, 30^th July, 2024, I intend to move a Motion to suspend relevant Standing Orders to enable the House to sit from 09:00 hours on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday until all business on the Order Paper is completed and to consider more than one stage of a Bill at a single sitting. The House is scheduled to adjourn sine die on Friday, 2^nd August, 2024.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the House Business Committee and in accordance with Standing Order No. 44 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, I have the pleasure to present the Business for the next two weeks to this august House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S VISITORS FROM LUSAKA PROVINCE

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of visitors for Her Honour the Vice-President from the district, provincial and youth wings of the United Party for National Development (UPND) in Lusaka Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome them into our midst.

I thank you.

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URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

DRUGS DIVERTED TO A PRIVATE WAREHOUSE

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me, on behalf of the people of Katombola, an opportunity to raise an Urgent Matter Without Notice.

Madam Speaker, the people of Katombola have asked me to get back to the issue of drugs. We were almost in a sabotage situation in which containers containing drugs that were supposed to save the people of Zambia were taken to a private warehouse called JJ Warehouse. I do not know if it is connected to the Patriotic Front (PF). Of course –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker:  Order, hon. Members!

Mr Andeleki: The Urgent Matter –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, give the hon. Member a chance to complete his matter.

Hon. Member for Katombola, you may proceed. Take your time allocation into consideration.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the protection.

 Madam Speaker, my question is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President. Does she know the motive of the people who directed those drugs to be kept somewhere else so that the people of Zambian can die?

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we have to make progress.

My ruling on that Urgent Matter Without Notice is that there was a discussion on this matter and a ministerial statement was rendered to this House on Wednesday. We learnt that the matter was under investigation. So, we have to wait for the investigation to be concluded. Then we will know. Whatever questions we have, I think, the investigations, once concluded, are going to inform the nation what exactly transpired.

So, that matter is inadmissible. We move on to the next hon. Member to present the next matter.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, I indicated to ask a question during The Vice-President’s Question Time.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let us move according to how the items are lined up. I announced that the next segment is Urgent Matters Without Notice. That is where we are.

Information and Communication Technology (ICT) staff, delete the list so that we make progress.

Mr B. Mpundu interjected.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker:  Hon. Members, I cannot tell who has indicated for what business. The hon. Member said he indicated to ask a question during The Vice-President’s Question Time. So, because of that mix-up, I am compelled to make progress.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

_______

THE VICE PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Eng. J. Daka (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, under the Emergency Cash Transfer programme, Chadiza was allocated 4,099 beneficiaries. However, to date, only 3,200 have been enrolled and 899 have not. They want to know when this exercise will be completed and to acknowledge that the programme is positively impacting the livelihoods of people in the constituency.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I think that hon. Members must know what they can and cannot ask me.

Interjections

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, truthfully speaking, the hon. Member cannot ask me constituency-specific questions. I would not have the answer here; I would be dreaming. In as much as I appreciate the fact that the hon. Member needs to know about what he has asked, I would not know the answer because I would need to get information from the concerned ministry. I think, it would be good to have a question directed to the ministry so that it tackles it properly.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) Report is out and many people are excited about it.

Mr B. Mpundu: We are not excited. We are disappointed.

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, this is not the first time the FIC Report has been released to the public.

Hon. Government Members: Hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I remember that when the FIC Report in the previous regime was released, the Chairperson, under the Patriotic Front (PF), was relieved of his job, but this time around, the FIC Report is out, and no one has been fired from the FIC. What can Her Honour the Vice-President say about the integrity of our President and the Government concerning the people in their offices?

Mr Amutike: Yaa!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interjections

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Interjections

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Mwembezhi for that question.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us have some order in the House.

The hon. Member for Lumezi, please, we have the Standing Orders that stipulate that hon. Members cannot rise on a point of order during The Vice-President’s Question Time.

Hon. Members, can we have order!

Her Honour the Vice-President may proceed.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I was thanking the hon. Member for the question. He has asked me to comment on the integrity of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia and the entire Government premising the question on the fact that –

Interjections

 The Vice-President: Please, let us relax.

Madam Speaker, he premised his question on the fact that FIC reports have been released before. This is not the first FIC report. FIC reports have been there. I think, I mentioned it yesterday. In fact, I did not think that we would even be talking about the FIC because we spent some time yesterday talking about it. The truth of the matter is that FIC reports have been there. The difference between the past regime and the current one is that now, there is integrity, ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … in the sense that His Excellency the President has freely said that investigative wings must investigate.

Interjections

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, honestly, yesterday, we went through the report, and the understanding was that the FIC report is very important. However, remember that what is contained in the FIC report is not an investigation, but an indication of suspicious transactions. The Government cannot start firing and arresting people on suspicion. The investigative wings must work. I am not debating the President, but he; President Hakainde Hichilema, has not said do not investigate.  He has not said that it is umfwiti, that it is witch-hunting.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, it is not witch-hunting, the allegations must be proven right or wrong through investigations. Those who will be found guilty with evidence must be dealt with by the law. Nobody should be a sacred cow in the fight against corruption.

Madam Speaker, I want to repeat what the President said: We have to fight corruption because it is a terrible vice, and all of us in here must run with it. We will fight corruption of yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Hammer!

Interjections

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, I commend the people of Keembe for coming up with a group called KBS, which is Keembe Booing Squad.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, in 2020, when the Patriotic Front (PF) was in power, the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) Report revealed suspicious transactions amounting to K2.2 billion, and the members of the United Party for National Development (UPND) called the previous regime corrupt, and called people plunderers and thieves. Today, the FIC report has revealed that there are some transactions relating to corruption, amounting to K13.5 billion. I want to know why we cannot call them thieves, a corrupt Government and plunderers because the amount in the report has risen from K2.2 billion in 2020 to K13.5 billion in 2023.

Mr B. Mpundu: Ema question aya!

Mr. Kafwaya: Standard!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Nakonde for that question. It is a very important question. He has the right to be a little upset, especially after the by-elections.

Madam Speaker, it is important to look at the report comprehensively, and see how far back the suspicious transactions go. That is something to look at. Money is liquid. Sorry, I am giving you an answer that may not be as professional as you may want it to be, but another thing to look at –

Madam Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. Member was in the House in the last Assembly.

Hon. Government Members: No!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, he is new. I know that the former hon. Minister was in the House.

Ms. Mulenga: Ah!

The Vice-President: I am not debating you, Madam.

Madam Speaker, I am just saying that the figures of money are never the same. What is important is the value.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Listen to me!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us not debate while seated.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Nkana should listen to me. He may agree with me that the value of money is not only in the figures, but in what it can buy. The value of the allowances we get may be the same, but the prices of goods have risen. I hope I am saying something here. The prices go up, but the value of money is the same –

Interruptions

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, they cannot get it. What I am saying is that the amount that I used to buy a notebook in 2020 is not the same amount that I used to buy a notebook this year. I may have had K2 to buy a notebook in 2020, but today, I am buying it at K10. So, it does not mean an increase. It is simply the figures that have risen. However, if it is like that, and the Opposition chooses to call the Government corrupt, it has to prove it.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members on my left!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the Government can be called anything, but the point is that the Government has said that matters have to be investigated, and the truth will come out. The Government is not hiding the investigation. The Government will be proven corrupt after the decoding by investigative wings, of what truly happened. Some allegations might have been true and some might have been based on suspicions, but the reality came to the table. So, they should not make conclusions too fast because their records may still be kept at the top.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, yesterday, when the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security was debating the Report of the Committee on Government Assurances and during debate on the Second Reading stage of the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE) Report, he mentioned many cases in which contracts under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government were awarded and executed. He said that before the contracts were executed, contractors had upfront payments. One such contract is that relating to the US$30 million FTJ Chiluba University project and the US $30 million Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway project. Among the seven contracts that were awarded, US$200 million was paid for one contract under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, but no work was done. These are huge sums of money.

Madam Speaker, does Her Honour the Vice-President not think it would be good for the Government to list down all the dubious contracts that were awarded under the PF Government? The contracts and the amounts should be listed so that the people of Zambia know how careless the PF Government was in executing contracts.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you may wind up your question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, the people of Zambia want to know what happed to the huge sums of money. Is it the desire of Her Honour the Vice-President to bring to the Floor of the House the list of the contracts with huge sums?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, we will soon be looking at the Auditor-General’s Report. I think, the people of Zambia must take interest in such documents because issues such as the one the hon. Member has brought up are documented. If it is the wish of the House that the Government compiles a list of the incomplete projects, on which money was paid, it can be done. Nonetheless, I believe that the people of Zambia know the truth and they make decisions based on the truth. When the truth came out, my friends moved from the right side of the House to the left side. The Zambian people are the best judges. The House can shout all it wants, but the people of Zambia know the truth and, one day, they will make a decision. They made a decision, and they can make another one. They will look at the integrity and corruption records.

Madam Speaker, the record is not erased. Ours is being made in a transparent manner. People who are involved will be known.

I thank you, Madam.

Interruptions

Mr Ackleo Banda (Vubwi): Madam Speaker, in most parts of the country, mobile network has become a big challenge. It is affecting most network users who earn a living through the provision of services that are dependent on network. What immediate mitigation measure does the Government plan to put in place to work on the network problem?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thought the issue raised by the hon. Member was brought to the House not long ago, unless I am mistaken. I think, the hon. Minister of Technology and Science may have to give the House a comprehensive answer regarding the situation because the complaints on the issues of Internet providers have continued. The hon. Minister of Technology and Science should explain to the House what is happening in that field. I may not have the answer.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, greetings to Her Honour the Vice-President. I have known her for a long period of time; when she was Deputy Minister in the Government of the Republic of Zambia, Cabinet Minister and Deputy Speaker. Currently, she is holding a very important position in the land, the position of Vice-President of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I sympathise with Her Honour the Vice-President for defending the contents of the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) Report when she has not benefitted in any way.

Laughter

Ms Mulenga interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you know very well that we do not debate ourselves. Please, refrain from that and go straight to the question so that Her Honour the Vice-President can respond.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, thank you for the guidance.

Madam Speaker, it is very sad that the institution through which corruption is supposed to be fought is where corruption is rampant.

Madam Speaker, the Anti Corruption Commission (ACC) Director-General resigns, the President of the Republic of Zambia dissolves the ACC Board and US$65 million worth of drugs are marooned somewhere.

Mr Amutike: We want to ask questions.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, is it an indication that there is rampant corruption in the New Dawn Administration? People want to know how His Excellency the President reached the decision to dissolve the ACC Board. Is it an indication that all the members of the ACC Board are corrupt?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the question and I return my greetings. I appreciate the hon. Member complimenting my persona and character. However, I would like to clarify one small mistake. I have never been a Deputy Minister. I am aware that it comes on my profile, but I have never been one.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member says he feels sorry for me because I am not a beneficiary of corruption. He is 100 per cent right because I am not a beneficiary of corruption and I do not intend to be one.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Let me move on.

Rev. Katuta interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chiengi, please do not shout.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member goes on to sound like he is so sure of the beneficiaries.

Hon. Opposition Member: We know them.

The Vice-President: You know them?

Madam Speaker, if the hon. Members know them by name, I am sure that they are not using the FIC report. They have another source; another report. They are now the investigators. So, if they know something more, why do they not report it? Why do you not go and say it is –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: I am not defending corruption. I am defending the FIC report. Let us –

 Interruptions

The Vice-President: Hear me out.

Madam Speaker, in the FIC report, there is no one mentioned there with evidence. Counsel Chisanga, I have said many times that the fact that they are implications or suspicions, the Government needs to prove it. Therefore, hon. Members could be part of proving who is the ones involved are. They could be –

Madam Speaker, the FIC report is an indicator. It is a red flag and shows suspicions. Therefore, one cannot convict anybody on suspicions. He/she cannot.

Mr Mabeta: Teach them, mummy!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the credit the hon. Members should give to this Government is the fact that the President has said that the suspicions must be investigated.

Madam Speaker, white color crime is not easy to investigate and have someone convicted.

Madam Speaker, remember the issues of the forty-eight houses –

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am still speaking to the FIC report. How long has it taken to have the owners of the forty-eight houses convicted?

Mr Amutike: They failed!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, there were allegations in which some people were named as being part of the issue about the forty-eight houses. Can you imagine what would have happened if the Government had used that information to arrest those people? The Government would be –

 Interruptions

The Vice-President: Can I speak, please.

Madam Speaker, they would be saying that the person who was named wrongly connived with the Government and is now getting compensation.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

 The Vice-President: This is what they would be saying. We do not want to fall into that trap. So, all matters have to be investigated. Let us be firm so that people must be investigated and evidence must be found. It does not matter who is mentioned. You see –

There is nobody who can –

The Vice-President drank some water.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can stop the watch.

Laughter

The Vice-President continued drinking water.

Hon. Opposition Members: On the watch!

The Vice-President: I am not taking time.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 In fact, the minutes have been taken back so as to catch up from when she started drinking water.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, honestly, I, and the Government collectively, cannot stand and defend corruption. However, we have received the FIC report in the manner it is. We take it as true or false, but matters mentioned there must be investigated, and whoever is found guilty must pay for their crimes. That is what the Government is saying. So, nobody should be saying that the report is nothing. The Government has not said that. It has not called it a witch-hunt or anything else, but it has received it. The President has received it and has taken it seriously. Can the investigators do their work. Let us not add things that are not true. Sometimes, we are picking information from sources that may not help us.

Madam Speaker, I hope that this does not mean that I am defending corruption. No! I will stand against corruption, as Vice-President and as a national of this country. Let us do it the right way.

Madam Speaker, sometimes, it is easy when for someone outside to say ba gwileni, then the following day, he/she turns and asks why that was done. So, let us calm down and insist on investigations.

Madam Speaker, when we talk of the US$65 million – the hon. Minister of Health can confirm that actually, it is not US$65 million, but US$24 million.

Ms Mulenga: All that money!

The Vice-President: All this needs verification. If they say no, I will say what I know and what I am given by the officials. I do not dream figures. However, if they have another figure, and they have verified it, I think, it is important that they come and lay that information on the Table of the House so that we all know the truth. I have been told today that it is not US$65 million, which we may all have believed. It is now proven that it is US$24 million. So, let us not argue with facts, we cannot do that.

Madam Speaker, the Director-General (DG) resigns and the board is dissolved. When there is a dent in an institution, I think you would rather start afresh. It does not exonerate the people from any wrongful doing. That is what I said yesterday. If there was corruption, and I am not saying there was, for example, if the DG was corrupt, does resignation protect him? No.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Madam Speaker, this Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) was moved to State House under Gazette Notice No. 1123 of 2021. Now that the ACC is very close to His Excellency the President, why has it become so corrupt than ever before?

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, it is like a child is expelled from school because of bad behaviour and you bring him closer.

Interruptions

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, the ACC has been moved to State House under Gazette Notice …

 Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Daka: … No. 1123 of 2021. Why has it now become very corrupt?

Madam Speaker, since the inception of this institution, we all know that it was a very good institution. When it conducted investigations, it was on point. So, why is it that – It is like a child who was in boarding school and was caught, maybe, stealing or something like that …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, wind up.

Mr Daka: … and now you bring him closer to your home, but becomes very cantankerous. What is the problem? I want to know what the problem is with the ACC today.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Msanzala says the ACC has moved. Where has it moved from?

Hon. PF Members: It is now under State House, which is a fact.

The Vice-President: I think that there are former hon. Ministers here. Gazette Notice No. 1123 of 2021 was just indicating where institutions were falling; some of them did not have to move. It falls under State House. That is a fact, and so has it been. 

Hon. PF Members: It now falls under State House. That is a fact.

The Vice-President: That is what I am saying. I am correcting that. You do not have to quarrel –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, do not engage Her Honour the Vice-President. Give her chance to respond.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the more they engage me, the better because we can spend twenty minutes on the same question.

Madam Speaker, the fact that it appeared under the Office of the President does not mean that it was somewhere else before. That is a correction. It is important that we know.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members are saying that it has become more corrupt.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: I think that we have gone through that. I think, it is an assumption that the ACC has become more corrupt.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: So, why are the people with information sitting quietly and not bringing evidence? Have they brought any evidence?

Hon. Opposition Members: The Zambian Whistleblower did.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, maybe, I missed something. Forgive me. However, what I understand based on the information from the one they are calling the Zambian Whistleblower, hopefully it is the same Zambian Whistleblower, is that the fight is not going on. The ACC is not fighting corruption as it should, and not necessarily that it is the most corrupt, No! That is my understanding, though I could be wrong. To say it has become corrupt is not right. Individuals within it could be corrupt.

Madam Speaker, the statement that the hon. Member has made contradicts the one that was rendered by the hon. Member in 2022. We have to remember the debate. I think, it was the hon. Member Lumezi, sitting somewhere there (pointing at the opposite Bench). We had this interaction in which he said that it was the most corrupt institution. So, it has been the most corrupt in his opinion. It is not the first time. I hope I am justifying something here. If he says it is corrupt, and the hon. Member sitting there said it was the most corrupt in 2022 when we came here, I have to refer to the debates of this House. So, it is not a fact that the institution has become corrupt. Even in my response to the hon. Member, I said that individuals can be corrupt, but the institution cannot. If the institution was corrupt – I said that individuals there could be corrupt, but the institution is good and it will continue to help us fight corruption.

Madam Speaker, let me drink some more water.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, I am troubled with the report of the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC). One of the roles of the FIC is to receive and analyse suspicious transactions or reports from financial institutions in Zambia. Do financial institutions only conduct business with the Government? There is an allegation that people in the Government are corrupt. Where are the people in the private sector? Suspicions can come from the private sector. We know that from the previous regime, there was a lot of money that was found, sometimes buried in houses and might still be there. It now finds itself in the financial institutions and the FIC is able to pick that up.

Madam Speaker, I am troubled. Can Her Honour the Vice-President tell the people of Zambia if it is only the Government that conducts business with financial institutions. I know that even the private sector conducts business with them. I just want clarity on this issue.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Her Honour the Vice-President, I do not know if you got the question.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I did not get the whole question. However, I can respond to the bit that I got. The hon. Member said that the FIC’s responsibility was to receive and analyse information from financial institutions. At least I got that. I think, the question at the end was whether the private sector is also involved. She asked if it was only the Government that conducted business with the private sector. Really, all of us here know that it is not Government to Government. That means there is a private sector corrupt person or institutions that corrupt those in Government. That is why when we are fighting issues such as these, we should also talk of the private sector because it is the one that comes into offices to make the weak souls fall prey by offering them –

Mr Mundubile interjected.

The Vice-President: Hon. Member for Mporokoso, we miss you, but it is true.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, in almost all acts of corruption, there is the private sector. So, I think, it is important that the narrative does not remain only with the Government. This is distortion in the economy and the private sector must also be seriously considered.

Madam Speaker, I am not a legal person, but I wonder what the outcome is in situations in which someone is corrupted by a certain company. What happens to such companies? I think that the hon. Member can teach me. If a corrupt private company corrupts me, and I lose something, let it also lose something. I think that if I am jailed, let it be jailed too. I hope that is the way it goes. Otherwise, it is the private sector that is always making people in the offices get tempted. Tempting them is not correct. People should get rich through corruption. If they do, they are just creating problems for their children and somebody in that lineage will pay for that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sialubalo (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, in 2019, the people of the valley or the southern part of the Southern Province never received rainfall. As a result, there was severe drought. Clarion calls were made to the then Government for help, but nothing came forth. The people depended on animals for survival. In 2023, the people of Sinazongwe, again, experienced severe drought and we have seen a lot of effort from the Government, which did everything possible to help. Maize for community sale is available. We have seen the revised Social Cash Transfer programme and the Cash for Work programme to help the people. We thank Her Honour the Vice-President for showing leadership. The people of Sinazongwe are grateful.

Madam Speaker, when the United Party for National Development (UPND) won elections, the President indicated that he was giving an amnesty to public workers who were employed on partisan lines. What the people of Sinazongwe have noticed is that some public workers are still loyal to the former Ruling Party, yet they are serving in the Government.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Sialubalo: Madam Speaker, these are the people who are taking information from the Government system to feed the Opposition. The people of Sinazongwe are no longer happy. They want Her Honour the Vice-President to indicate when the Government is going to clean the system so that those who are loyal to the Government and the nation can serve the people of Zambia diligently.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Sinazongwe. Allow me to respond to the hon. Member’s concerns. The first thing that the hon. Member has said is that Sinazongwe has experienced drought twice in the last few years. In the 2019 drought, the Government did not come through. He also said that in 2023, another severe drought was experienced, but the Government is responding to that.

Hon. Member interjected.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has also talked about the interventions that the Government is putting in place. I thank him for that. Sometimes, you need to hear some good things or appreciation. I think, the hon. Minister of Agriculture is feeling energised.

Mr Mtolo: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I also feel energised given that some people have noticed that we are making an effort on this matter and we will continue doing so. We have said that humanly, nobody should die because we have limitations. Therefore, we will do everything possible to ensure people have food, at least, to survive.

Madam Speaker, on sentiments that people who were employed on partisan lines are the ones who are probably taking information to the Opposition from their offices, it is wrong if it is happening. I am using the word ‘if’ because every time I must have evidence. If that is what is happening, it is wrong, particularly for senior offices where oath is taken. They cannot divulge information that they are not supposed to give. I think that is what the Government has said. To say that those who are employed on partisan lines must be removed, it is difficult for this office to tell who was employed on partisan lines because there is no record to show that.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Therefore, we take every public servant as a Zambian. However, we have a disciplinary code. If a person is caught taking information that should not be taken out, if it is an offence, then let that person be dealt with. I cannot make a blanket statement because it is difficult to pinpoint who was employed through partisan lines. Whoever commits an offence according to the disciplinary code and conduct should be fired there and then. That is the way we should go. So, my advice to the civil servants listening to me is that they know their responsibility. They must stay in their offices. If they get fed up, they should walk away. They should not stay in the office and filter information because that is not allowed.

Mr Chisopa: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Antotelako uyu lelo.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We have not heard from the Independents.

Hon. Member for Chienge.

Mr Kapyanga: Aha, mayo nga ba youth?

Laughter

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I do not know if I am allowed to say to Her Honour the Vice-President that she looks beautiful

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: She looks younger than her age in that attire.

adam Speaker, we have recorded many deaths of Yango drivers in the country. I have not seen a Statutory Instrument that has been brought to this House to protect the hard-working Yango drivers. What measures is the Government going to put in place to save the souls that are being wasted every day? We have not seen many arrests of those who have been killing the young Yango drivers.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to say good morning to the hon. Member for Chienge. A correction to her speech: I am not old, but young.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: The hon. Member said I look young. This is my age. I am only fifty-two years old.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Vice-President: That was on light note.

The deaths of Yango drivers are a concern. The concern is what the Government doing. Is it arresting people? To me, this is a field that we need to understand, but I will not go that way. All I will say is that some people connected to the deaths have been arrested. They will be appearing in court. It is important that this criminality comes to an end because we do not know where it is coming from. Maybe, as prosecutions go on, we will learn what motivates people to kill others who are working hard just to survive. I cannot give a full detail of what is happening. This is all I can say. The Government is not sitting idly. The police is arresting some people. We will soon hear that some are in the courts of law.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mandandi (Sioma): Madam Speaker, Sioma Constituency was not spared from the discrimination that the Western Province suffered under the Patriotic Front (PF) regime.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mandandi: To an extent that even the provision of safe and clean water to our people was never considered a priority. As we speak, Sioma has no water reticulation plant to enable us to provide clean water to our people. When will this Government, my Government, which believes in equity, consider putting up a water reticulation plant for the people of Sioma?

Mr Kapyanga: Use CDF!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Sioma. I think, his question is similar to …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: … the question asked by the hon. Member for Chadiza. I can speak generally, but not about Sioma on when exactly this is going to be done. Generally, the Government is working on the issue of water supply. If you look at the Drought Response Plan, you will note that the Government has taken the issue of water very seriously, particularly in areas that have been hit by drought. So, it is my hope that Sioma is surely included on the programme for drilling boreholes. Whether there is a need for a dam, I cannot respond to that at the moment, but where we have had drought and water levels are low, the Government is working on that through the Drought Response Plan. The hon. Member may have to check with the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, the happenings at the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) are an indictment of what has been happening for the last two years. The ACC has not been providing closure on cases of current corruption. I will give an example of one case of a US$100 million hospital deal signed by the former Permanent Secretary (PS) in the Ministry of Health.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, the former PS was summoned, two years down the line, the ACC has not closed that case or even cleared that PS, if he was innocent.

Madam Speaker, we have lost two years with the ACC being on a sabbatical. One of its board members says that it was captured by corrupt elements. How does the country recover from these two years of sabbatical that the ACC took by being under the capture of corrupt elements?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!   

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, since we have run out of time, I will start by saying that the hon. Member’s statement may not be 100 per cent true. It is an opinion. It is not true that the ACC has gone on sabbatical because there are people who have been convicted in the past year. So, how can he say it was on sabbatical?

Madam Speaker, I was talking about the forty-eight houses. Investigating white-collar crime is not easy. It takes time. So, let us give the AAC time. The allegation of corruption at the AAC is not something that I cannot handle. I have said that the allegations are subject to investigation, and when evidence is adduced, the Government will agree that something is going on. Yes, there are allegations, but when it comes to investigations, the Government has to take its time. It does not mean that cases are over.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member gave an example of a case involving a former Permanent Secretary (PS). I am not sure if the case is over. Closure is important, but the ACC cannot close cases until it ensures that there is no case or if there is a case, the matter goes through the court process. We have to be patient because it is not easy. Everybody wants closure, but let us close cases properly. I do not know whether the case of the PS is still running. Maybe, we can find out later and know whether it has been thrown out or know what happened to it. I cannot answer that at the moment.

Maybe, we need to get more information from the courts of law all the time.  That is where we should be paying attention so that we know which cases are being prosecuted, which ones are pending and so on and so forth, but I can assure the hon. Member that white-collar crime is the worst to investigate. It takes too long to conclude, has too many twists and turns, and many lies.

Oh! The day is over, Madam Speaker.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

_______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

ALLEGED PLANNED COUNTRYWIDE PROTESTS BY THE ZAMBIA CONGRESS OF TRADE UNION (ZCTU)

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity given to me to render a ministerial statement to this august House and the nation, at large, on the alleged planned countrywide protests by the Zambia Congress of Trade Union (ZCTU) following the Government’s alleged proposed amendments to the Employment Code Act No. 3 of 2019 to remove gratuity and other allowances.

 Madam Speaker, from the outset, let me state that the Government is committed to addressing inequities and fostering national development in line with the 2021 to 2026 United Party for National Development (UPND) Manifesto. The manifesto, among other things, promises to:

1.  to create new jobs, which we are doing;

1. to empower small businesses to succeed and grow, which we are doing as demonstrated by the setting up of the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise, which is new; and

1. to develop an education system that is robust and prepares young people to be leaders and job creators of tomorrow.

 Madam Speaker, in the quest to create an enabling environment for a competitive labour market, the Government, through my ministry, has strengthened the labour market institutions through the following:

1.  the enactment of the Zambia Institute of Human Resource Management Act No. 3 of 2022 that gives them powers of regulation of human resource management practice;

1.  the revision of the statutory minimum wages, which was undertaken;

1.  the amendment of the National Pension Scheme Act No. 40 of 1996 to empower workers who are members of the scheme with capital through the pre-retirement pension benefits, popularly known as the partial withdrawal. So far, 460,947 members have benefited and K9.7 billion has been paid out to the beneficiaries, who are workers of Zambia. Further, the same amendment introduced penalty waivers to provide relief to businesses that are the creators for sustainable jobs. To date, 3,286 employers have benefited and about K326 million has been waived; and

1. the development of the Occupational Safety and Health Policy. In addition, the ministry is in the process of undertaking further policy and legislative reforms.

 Madam Speaker, in order to strengthen labour administration, the Government, through my ministry, has rehabilitated five district labour offices, enhanced integrated labour inspections, revived the call center that both employers and workers can reach us on through the Zamtel toll free line, 7010. In addition, the ministry has developed the Frequently Asked Questions and Responses Handbook aimed at providing useful labour related information to the public.

 Madam Speaker, regarding the proposed amendment to the Employment Code Act No. 3 of 2019, let me state that the labour market has faced practical difficulties in the implementation of certain provisions that are vague or ambiguous and have a negative impact on business operations and employee protection. The amendment, therefore, intends to respond to these challenges, enhance stability of the labour markets and accelerate job reaction. On 12^th July, 2023, the Cabinet granted approval, in principle, for these legislative proposals.

 Madam Speaker, let me update this august House on the events of Tuesday, 16^th July, 2024. The ZCTU delivered a press statement that, among others things, expressed grievance and displeasure on the stakeholder engagement process, particularly, the Siavonga Stakeholders Meeting, seeking to withdraw from the process. Further, the congress leadership expressed concern on the named provisions of the content.

 Madam Speaker, I have come to this august House to provide clarity to the nation and to the labour markets on the proposed amendments and the process, which is being done through a consultative process in line with the best international practice.

Madam Speaker, as a State party to the International Labour Organisation (ILO), Zambia is required, under the Convention of 1976 No. 144, to promote effective tripartite consultations regarding all labour matters. The convention emphasises the importance of tripartite consultations bringing together Government, employers and workers’ representatives. The requirement is domesticated in the Industrial and Labour Relations Act through the establishment of the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council, which, therefore, plays a crucial role in fostering social dialogue and tripartism all the time.

Madam Speaker, let me now update the august House on the process undertaken thus far towards the Employment Code (Amendment) Act.

Madam Speaker, before the Cabinet approval, in principle, to amend the Employment Code Act, consultations were done with our tripartite partners regarding lacunae in the Employment Code Act. Later, a tripartite consultative labour council meeting was held on 9^th May, 2023, to agree on the roadmap for the Amendment of the Employment Code Act.

Madam Speaker, in line with the agreed roadmap, my ministry received proposals from social partners who included workers, employers, organisations and other stakeholders. The submissions were consolidated into a zero draft Bill, which was subjected to stakeholders for initial comments at a consultative meeting held in Siavonga from 7^th to 10^th May, 2024 at Lake Safari Lodge. The outcome of that meeting was a set of instructions that were formally submitted to the Ministry of Justice for generation of a draft amendment Bill on 13^th May, 2024.

Madam Speaker, it is important to emphasise that the drafting instructions issued to the Ministry of Justice were intended to include comments and the positions of key stakeholders, which were included in the draft Bill, but are not final. I repeat: They are not final. However, they shall be subjected to the tripartite partner’s discussions, which include the ZCTU, for further consultation and approval before the Bill is formally submitted to the Cabinet. It is important to stress that the Siavonga meeting was a beginning of a long consultative process in the spirit of social dialogue for consensus building, in good faith.

Madam Speaker, the ministry, in line with the law, shall consult the tripartite partners and endeavour to reach a consensus on the proposals in the Bill. Thus, it must be emphasised that the process of reviewing the Employment Code Act is still in its infancy stage.

Madam speaker, I wish to allay the concerns raised by the hon. Member for Mpika Constituency that the amendment seeks to remove gratuity and other allowances. To the contrary, the proposed amendments are not repealing the entitlement to gratuity, but are seeking to specify the circumstances under which gratuity will be payable and the applicable rates. This is subject to their deliberations in the forthcoming consultative fora that are planned.

Madam Speaker, I, therefore, wish to assure the House and the nation, at large, that my ministry shall continue to engage all stakeholders to ensure that the proposed amendments to the Employment Code Act are a product of meaningful social dialogue, as always, that emphasises consensus building. What transpired is purely due to misinformation by some stakeholders.

 Madam speaker, in summary, as regards the Bill, the roadmap for the consultative process is as follows:

1. receipt of the zero draft Bill from Ministry of Justice;

1. circulation of the draft Bill and engagement of the stakeholders for its validation;

1. tripartite consultative labour council meeting for resolution; and

1. submission of the draft Bill to the Ministry of Justice for finalisation and submission for protocols leading to the Cabinet for approval before introduction in Parliament.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I am raising a point of order on the hon. Minister of Health pursuant to Standing Order No. 139.

Madam Speaker, there has been creation of a very strong public apprehension. I wanted to indicate during the Urgent Matters Without Notice segment, but you went straight into the Vice-President’s Question Time segment and I did not have a chance to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

 Madam Speaker, the public, including the Pharmaceutical Association of Zambia, has expressed great concern on the efficacy of the medicine that was marooned in Beira for three months and seven months in Lusaka.  It was kept in storage for ten months. That information was in the media yesterday, and today, the news is in all the newspapers. People have complained and wondered whether the hon. Minister of Health will proceed to distribute the medicine for public consumption without testing its efficacy so that the people of Zambia are assured that what they will be consuming is safe.

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance on this subject.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, there was some confusion when we were dealing with Urgent Matters without Notice, and since you have raised that matter, I would advise you to file in a question so that it can be brought to the Floor of the House. At the moment, the hon. Minister of Health cannot answer that. Please, come back to the House with a question so that the hon. Minister of Health can be given an opportunity to tackle it.      

 Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement rendered by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I am aware of the rules of the House pertaining to raising points of order when Her Honour the Vice-President is on the Floor, and so I could not raise it contemporaneously.

Madam Speaker, the point of order I am raising is anchored on Standing Order No. 71. I am raising it on the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwacha Constituency pertaining to the statement and question he put to Her Honour the Vice-President, and on that issue, I chug in the walkout and the press statement.

Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleagues on your left had walked out of the House yesterday because of issues of corruption in the nation and, according to them, in the Government. I am very happy that they walked out because they do not support corruption.

Madam Speaker, I congratulate them.

Ms Mulenga: Thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I would like you to take judicial notice of what I am going to say.

Madam Speaker, as he raised the point of order, and the demonstration that the hon. Members on your left had yesterday, I want them to also demonstrate –.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mpika, honestly, can you stand to raise a point of order when there is another one being raised?

Mr Kapyanga: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, no, you do not do that. You have to wait for the person on the Floor to conclude. Just indicate. You do not have to shout.

Hon. Minister for Home Affairs and Internal Security, you may continue.  

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwacha in order to make such allegations, yet he participated in the walk-out that took place yesterday? In actual fact, there is evidence to suggest that the issues he was raising happened under the Patriotic Front (PF) regime. There is an issue of K65 million, which is not disputed anywhere. Are the hon. Members on your left going to demonstrate against the blesser who gave that lady, who is known to them, the K65 million?

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, she is known to the hon. Members on your left and they know who the blesser is. Are they also going to demonstrate against the person who gave US$700 to somebody to keep in a house because those are corrupt activities? Are they in order, in particular hon. Chisanga, to not bring out those very serious corrupt issues that are in public domain and cannot be disputed?

Madam Speaker, is he in order to not tell Her Honour the Vice-President –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Ms Chisenga interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member of Parliament for Mambilima, are you pointing at me?

Ms Chisenga: No.

Hon. Members interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mambilima, I am talking to you and you have continued talking.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I am talking to the hon. Member of Parliament for Mambilima. You are all not hon. Members for Mambilima. She has the capacity to respond. You do not need to help her. Can that practice stop because you are not supposed to debate while seated. I was talking to the hon. Member for Mambilima.

Ms Chisenga interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mambilima, there is a way in which you can bring that matter to my attention rather than shouting. You can raise a point of order.

Mr Amutike Kakolewa ako.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta rose.

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, can you resume your seats.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chiengi, may you resume your seat.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, can you respect yourselves. You are all hon. Members in this House; whether woman or man. In whatever state, you are all hon. Members. Can you, please, respect yourselves. We need respect here. Can you respect the hon. Member for Mambilima.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I was raising a point of order on Hon. Mushanga on whether he is in order to not have raised this very important issue pertaining to corruption, especially that the Opposition hon. Members are now the champions in the fight against corruption. Why is he not raising the issue of the blesser who gave that lady K65 million? Is he in order to remain quiet and not demonstrate against that blesser, who is very high ranking in the Patriotic Front (PF)? Is he in order to not also mention that the property –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, wind up your point of order.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I am winding up now.  Is he also in order to not mention that the high property in New Kasama, which the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) seized, is jointly owned by an individual in this House? Is he in order to not mention those things?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, my ruling is that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security has sufficiently debated the point of order. Further, some of the issues that he has raised in his point of order happened yesterday. In fact, there is a way of bringing such complaints to the House; through a written complaint, if a matter happened as recent as yesterday. However, because he has sufficiently debated his point of order, it is not admissible. 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take one more point of order and then we make progress. No more points of order. I will only allow one person to rise on a point of order, and that will be the end.

Mr Kafwaya: On a Point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, you may have realised that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security highlighted that he was aware of the rules of the House. Indeed, points of order are supposed to be raised contemporaneously. The right time for me to have raised this point of order was during Her Honour the Vice- President’s Question Time segment, but I could not do so, for obvious reasons.

Madam Speaker, I rise on this very important point of order on the hon. Member of Parliament for Sinazongwe who asked Her Honour the Vice-President when the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government was going to clean up the public service because, according to him, the public workers are giving information to the Opposition.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Health came to the House and told us about the sixty-one containers of medicines. Was the hon. Member referring to her?

Madam Speaker, the Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) resigned and the chief communication expert at State House communicated that to the nation. Was the hon. Member referring to him?

Madam Speaker, the ACC Board, just yesterday, was dissolved on account of corruption issues. What has that got to do with innocent public workers? The Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) reports are on the FIC website. All of the reports are on the website; the US$2.8 billion, the K68 billion, the K61 billion, and the K13.5 billion in the UPND Government, and this has nothing to do with public workers, but has everything to do with systems because the reports are on the website of –

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, sugilite, which was stolen and from the police –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, do you want to debate your point of order?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, no.

Interruptions

Mr Amutike rose.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Member for Mongu Central, please resume your seat.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, I do not know if you want to take the route that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security took in which he debated his point of order. There will be nothing for me to rule on because you would have sufficiently debated your point of order, leaving the Presiding Officer with no room to make a ruling. Do you want to wind up or not?

Mr Kafwaya indicated assent.

Hon. UPND Members: No.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Why not?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, just complete your point of order; we are going for tea break.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I listed the issues. I did not repeat them like the hon. Minister did.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you wind up your point of order.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, let me now complete my list.

Madam Speaker, gold was stolen at the airport. Has that got anything to do with civil servants?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, resume your seat. I do not know what you are aiming at. You have been given a precious opportunity to raise a point of order, but you want to provoke the whole House.

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before Business was suspended, the hon. Member for Lunte had just finished raising a point of order.

My ruling is that the hon. Member for Lunte debated his point of order sufficiently.

 Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security.

Mr Mabumba (Mwense): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the statement that she has delivered. In recognising the statement, the Employment Code Act, in terms of its architecture, should be anchored on protecting the interests of the workers as well as promoting the growth of the businesses in this country. In her statement, the hon. Minister recognised that there have been challenges that have been associated with the implementation of the Employment Code Act of 2019. Would she share with this august House what the practical challenges have been faced in the implementation of the Employment Code Act during her social dialogue processes.

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, indeed, the New Dawn Administration of the United Party for National Development (UPND) and its alliance partners place a premium on the Decent Work Agenda that seeks to ensure that workers are protected at their workplaces and at the same time ensuring that they have quality jobs through sustainable employment and productivity. So, it is expressed in the manifesto of the Government. 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member wants to know some of the issues that gave impetus to the need to amend the Employment Code Act.

Madam Speaker, there have been protracted debates and conversations among members of the public, at the industry level, our social partners, employers and workers. These arise from lacunae as well as duplications that are inherent in the Employment Code Act. So, the issues that have been raised vary. They came through the submissions from our social partners, the workers’ organisations and the employers’ organisations. Some of them include leave, maternity and paternity leave. These would need to be looked at as well. So, they vary and are still under the process of consolidation through stakeholders.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Members, the consultations are too loud. Kindly minimise on that. We want to hear the responses from the hon. Minister.

 Hon. Minister, sorry for that. You may continue.

Ms Tambatamba: So, there are quite a range of them. As expressed in my ministerial statement, those matters are still under discussion for consolidation by the members through the tripartite forum. They will be known as we progress with the reform.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Charles Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to ask a question on a point of clarification to our hard-working hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security. Let me take this opportunity to thank her for the Ministerial Statement. 

Madam Speaker, a few days ago, we held a public hearing at the Government Complex, where I was privileged to chair the meeting.  We had stakeholders drawn from various institutions. There were officials from the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, officials from the Zambia Federation of Employers (ZFE) and parliamentarians from this House. There were also workers drawn from across the spectrum, who included shop workers, domestic workers and general workers. During that meeting, revelations were made as we reviewed Statutory Instruments (SIs) No. 48, 49 and 50. Many workers indicated that the minimum wage was not being adhered to.

Madam Speaker, I want to know what is holding the ministry from enforcing adherence to the minimum wage.

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, indeed, the minimum wage is one of the areas of enhancement that the Government has attended to in the more than two years it has been in office.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to note that from the time the New Dawn Administration took over office, one of the things it undertook was to sharpen the process of inspections. In the past, inspections were done in groupings. The ministry conducted its inspections while the other statutory institutions under the ministry such as the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), the Workers Compensation Fund Control Board (WCFCB), the team from the Occupational Safety and Health Services Department undertook their inspections. However, the hon. Member may wish to note that now the ministry has combined all the teams. It has created an integrated platform for enhanced inspections, which includes our social partners. So, the federations representing the workers are party to the inspections, and the federations that represent the employers are also party to the inspections. That way, they all hold one another accountable for what they do on the labour market.

Madam Speaker, the platform for inspections has been focusing quite a bit on ensuring that the SI on the minimum wage, like all other pieces of legislation that supervise the labour market, is adhered to. Any employer who does not adhere to that SI breaks the law, and when one breaks the law, it visits that person. So, we are going to continue on this trajectory and we are putting together many more. That is the reason we have enhanced communication between the labour market and the ministry, through the mechanisms we have put in place. They include the Zamtel toll-free line, 7010, as well as the frequently asked questions (FAQs) booklet that gives information on what workers should hold their employers accountable for, through the structures they have at the work place and, indeed, the call centre that we have activated where members of the public, who may be in places where there is no labour office, can also reach out to and alert us of any incompliances. Incompliances include that which has been debated or brought to your attention by the hon. Member.

Madam Speaker, my ministry sends a message that everyone on the employment market or the employers are expected to comply with the Statutory Instrument that requires that workers who are not unionised have access and are given their minimum wage. That does not mean that employers can only pay minimum wage. A good employer is one who motivates his/her worker because that is a means of improving that business. There should be a win-win situation between the employer and the worker, if that enterprise is going to succeed and be sustainable.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has talked about the retirement benefits, labour matters and the wider tripartite consultations in order to foster social dialogue. There has been talk, in the public domain, about the retirement age versus the benefits that the hon. Minister talked about. The talk has been that those who were employed before 2015 and have reached the retirement age of fifty-five should be getting ready to process their papers, and those who were employed after 2015 should be able to retire at sixty years. It is not clear as to what is really happening. I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether the assertions are true, and could have been part of the alleged causes for the country-wide demonstrations. Can the hon. Minister just state her position.

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Solwezi East for that question. Categorically, no. It has to do with the process of the Employment Code Act.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that there have been consultations to do away with the retirement benefits. One of the key indicators at the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council (TCLC), which workers are a party to. Earlier on, the hon. Minister stated that there was misinformation. Were those workers part of the TCLC or were they just informed of the decision? Was the decision to review and look at the possibilities and the criteria that one member should qualify for the terminal benefits made and did they participate in the process?

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Pambashe who was also Minister at the ministry. He has put it very correctly that the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council (TCLC) is fundamental to every decision that we make on reform of policy and of law. Let me repeat what I said earlier: This Administration places a premium on consultation, in line with the definition of democracy as expressed in our Constitution, “Government of the People, by the People and for the People”. For that reason, therefore, right from the beginning, the ministry officials cannot sit in isolation, in a corner and decide to amend or repeal any law. Therefore, the very debate that led to this decision comes from the workers and the employers, who are our social partners and with whom we have to be adept at social dialogue. Before even going to the Cabinet, the decision to move the amendments was discussed at the TCLC and thereafter, at the ministry to put together the Cabinet Memorandum to request the Cabinet to approve the process. It starts with a general debate, general dialogue, then it goes to the TCLC, and from the TCLC, when everybody acknowledges the need, it goes to the Cabinet for approval, in principle.

Madam Speaker, letters were written to our social partners to start making and putting together submissions, recognising that employers and worker organisations do not also decide on their own. They go to their members to dialogue and put together the submissions. The submissions were then were made before we went to the Siavonga meeting. Indeed, I agree that the TCLC is fundamental and that it is a prerequisite to any such process.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, byepi mama ba Brenda?Kana mwakosa mama.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What does that mean, hon. Member?

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, it means, “How are you my sister, Hon. Brenda? I hope you are okay.”

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that the hallmark of great leadership is the ability to listen to the people one leads and to act as dictated by the people. The House has seen happenings in which the Governments tried to enact particular laws, but citizens rose against that. For instance, citizens in Kenya rose against its Government and forced it to retract the intended enactment of a particular law. Today, the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU), with its fifty-eight affiliates, has warned of countrywide protests if the Government proceeds with its intention. I would like to believe that the reason it is apprehensive is that the issues are not sitting well with the workers, who have not received sufficient adjustments to their pecks for many years amidst all the challenges of the ever-increasing costs of commodities. It is only right that the Government does not attempt to take away anything that would make their lives better.

Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister not think that it would be prudent on her part as a leader to withdraw the intention? Owing to the fact that the people the Government wants to enact the law for are against it. Their intention to protest is a sign that they do not agree with the intention to amend the law.

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to agree with what the hon. Member has said. Indeed, good leadership listens to the people. That is the reason I explained the process that the Government undertook to get to this point. At the same time, I would like to caution my colleague, the hon. Member for Nkana Constituency that responsible leadership does not alarm the people it leads on issues of dialogue, which clearly have been seen and validated to have platforms where they are discussed. Without consulting and listening to people, the Government’s social partners, the workers of Zambia, who are the premium of the Government’s productivity and nation building, leaders should be last to look away when people talk. How can an honourable leader want to promote the language of Kenya and all that when the workers of Zambia are not interested in disturbing the peace that Zambia has enjoyed since independence?

Madam Speaker, the Government is on a process that is still open and it is up to the workers, employers, social partners, who kicked off this process, not forgetting the leadership of the ZCTU, to withdraw the intention. They are still undergoing different steps and they will go through three or four more steps before they can come to a final decision. The decision should be befitting for their children and the future generations. The decisions made will have to take into account the needs of children; born and unborn.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang'andu): Madam Speaker, my question is a rider to the question that was posed by the hon. Member for Nkana Constituency. It is common knowledge that the workers in both the public and the private sectors are stressed due to the fact that whilst the numerations remain static, the cost of living has been sky-rocketing. This has made it difficult for them to make ends meet.

Madam Speaker, the question that the hon. Member for Mpika raised, that necessitated the hon. Minister to present the ministerial statement, emanated from a public statement that was made by the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) that forms part of the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council (TCLC). The issue was public knowledge. For a big trade union like the ZCTU to go public in that manner, it meant that there was a dispute being declared. Can the hon. Minister assure this august House that the issues raised by the ZCTU have now been addressed. If the hon. Minister does not do that, then she should not accuse the hon. Member who brought this matter to her attention of alarming the nation because the statement that came from ZCTU is in the public domain. Can the hon. Minister assure this august House that the Government has addressed the issues before the Bill is tabled and presented in the House?

Hon. Members interjected.

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, the statement that was made by the Government’s dependable social partner, the ZCTU, is part of the democratic process in which it is able to raise issues and flag the processes that it is undertaking with the Government. This is done in case there is a matter left behind and, there is the fear of it being be left behind. The fact that the ZCTU was able to express itself by agreeing that the nation is in a situation that it finds itself in due to nature and maladministration over the past ten years or more. These are issues of national development and I recognised the situation that the country has found itself in. Hence, I was able to highlight the progressive housekeeping steps the Government has taken in improving the efficiency of the ministry to serve the social partners better. Further, re-structuring the organisational structure to serve them better. That way the Government will deliver better services to the social partners and, the reforms that the House is discussing so that the Government can sharpen the industry within the labour market for a better tomorrow.

Madam Speaker, the Government is in constant dialogue with the social partners at every moment. The Government cannot sit out there without making an effort to understand where the social partners are coming from. Therefore, to assure the hon. Member for Shiwang'andu, the Government is in discussion to clarify where the issue of the press statement came from.

Madam Speaker, between the two sides, I think that the Government knows where it is coming from. It is about the process and concern that the members of the social partners organisations and the workers organisation’s representative will be left out.

Madam Speaker, the Government is addressing that issue by clarifying to the nation and this House. The Government also made clarity on the roadmap that contrary to what the people heard that the labour movement had been left out of the consultations relating to the Bill and that the Bill was at Second Reading Stage in Parliament, which is not the case. The Bill is still too far from reaching its final stage. It is at the Ministry of Justice for the first time at drafting stage and it will be returned to the stakeholder consultation review and the TCLC. It will go through the same process; from the first stage all the way up to the the stage of it to being brought back for administrative process and then be taken to the Cabinet, and finally, Parliament. So, indeed, our social partners understand the process that I have explained to the nation through this House.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, on a point of order.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the statement issued by our hon. Minister of Labour and Security on the statement made by the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU).

Madam Speaker, coming from the labour movement, I am prompted to give my position and ask a question to the hon. Minister. Firstly, I would like to appreciate the hon. Minister for what she has outlined because, clearly, that is the process. I thank her for that. The fears that were out there have been addressed by the statement that consultation and engagement is still on-going. The Tripartite Consultative Labour Council (TCLC) is the main platform where consensus with the social partners, the employer, the employee’s representatives and others will be built.

Hon. B. Mpundu remained standing.

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, in appreciating that consultation and engagement is still on-going, and that the hon. Minister is engaging positively, has there a consideration of informal engagements with the social partners to allay their fears other than the formal TCLC? Did the hon. Minister engage in the informal engagements or discussions so that such statements would be avoided, and to ensure that their hearts are settled instead of being agitated?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Nkana, I had ruled that there would be no more points of order. The hon. Member for Lunte was the last one to raise one. So, with that ruling, I think, I am not going to take your point of order or anybody else’s.

Ms Tambatamba: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member for Chasefu who, indeed, is a social partner even up to today. This is because he takes the consultative and advisory role such as the one he has given that the TCLC is the bedrock for building consensus, and that is exactly the way we are moving with our social partners.

Madam Speaker, on informal engagements, yes indeed, we can never sit back and wait for a quarterly meeting or a meeting to come in a month plus when there are issues of urgent attention that our social partners, the ZCUT are calling out for. So, to assure the hon. Member, we are, indeed, undertaking this, and yesterday we had one such meeting. We also have other conversations through other platforms.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu asked a question in which he wanted to know if the issues that were raised by the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) were addressed or have been addressed. However, the answer that the hon. Minister gave was a little subjective. So, is it possible for the hon. Minister to be a bit more categorical in responding to the question because it is a similar to the one I have.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will add five minutes to this segment.

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, information that came from our social partners through our engagement with them was such that we have moved on and we have left them behind, and that we have passed a, b, c and d of the content. The content that came from the submissions of the two social partners to respond to the call have a wide range of issues. Those are what the stakeholder engagement meeting that will be attending to the draft bill from the ministry, that put together those issues, will be attending to.

Madam Speaker, we think that the ZCTU will be able to examine the issues that were received to have been passed. Of course, I have been assured that nothing has been passed because the process is still in its infancy stage. So, it is going to look at all those matters, including what they raised to see whether they have been put in the Act, and if they want the Amendment Bill there or not. So, it will be at liberty to examine the content, which came from itself and the employers through submissions, and whether these are still valid and if they want to proceed with these submissions. So, they are a wide range, and I, therefore, think that it will be premature to begin to debate this because eventually, they will come to this House when they have thrashed them through the different stages remaining that I have outlined.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I have a strong feeling that whenever a Bill or a policy is going to be discussed, it always gets a huge backlash from the public. I am referring to the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019, and this also sounds like ‘Bill 10’.

Madam Speaker, when people start giving indications that they do not want something, it means that there is something wrong. Why can this ministry not give a chance to the very stakeholders who are the employees to say what they want? It sounds like something is being imposed on the employees.

Madam Speaker, would it be fair for the hon. Minister to call for a public hearing where even the media houses would show that, indeed, the main stakeholders, the employees, have been engaged and not those who represent them who can compromise?

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, may the hon. Member repeat the question.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, my question to my hon. Minister is that: Why can the Government not engage the main stakeholders, who are employees, and not their representatives, in a public meeting where even the media can be present? In most cases, the employees’ representatives are compromised. The public is saying or rather the section of employees is already indicating that they are not happy. So, why not call for that public hearing where the employees themselves can be engaged and not their representatives?

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, perhaps you will permit me to read something that would answer the question on what was mentioned in the statement as having been removed, as I respond to the hon. Member for Chienge.

Madam Speaker, in my ministerial statement, I did say the following:

“I wish to allay the concerns raised by the hon. Member for Mpika Constituency, the assertion that the amendment seeks to remove gratuity and other allowances.”

I went on to say that:

“To the contrary, the proposed Siavonga amendments are not repealing the entitlement to gratuity, but are specifying the circumstances under which gratuity will be payable and applicable rates as per what the social partners will finalise.”

So, the gratuity has not, at all, been removed.

Madam Speaker, the TCLC, according to the law, is the body that decides the process that we must undertake. At this moment, the Siavonga meeting brought together a wide range of stakeholders and, of course, the representatives of the workers who were at that meeting. I have a list of the representation that was at the meeting. If at all the members of the TCLC see it fit that we undertake a process in which we go to the workers – When we say workers, the labour market is huge. How we would reach very work place? I am not sure. Whether there is precedence to undertaking this process in that manner where you go to the workers will be a matter of deliberation, debate and decision in the TCLC.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Maybe, the ministry can also consider meeting Members of Parliament as part of the consultations through a seminar or something like that.

I thank you.

Mr Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, that is well noted.

I thank you, Madam.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MEASURES TO REDUCE NON-COMMUNICABLE DISEASES

390. Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Health what measures are being put in place to reduce the prevalence of non-communicable diseases (NCDs) associated with unhealthy diets, countrywide.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, I express gratitude to the hon. Member for Kanchibiya for raising this crucial question, which allows us to address non-communicable diseases (NCDs) linked to unhealthy diets. In Zambia, approximately 29 per cent of all deaths are attributed to NCDs, including conditions such as obesity, cardiovascular diseases, diabetes, chronic respiratory diseases, hypertension or high blood pressure (BP) and certain cancers.

Madam Speaker, the following are the measures being taken to reduce the prevalence of NCDs associated with unhealthy diets.

1. strengthening health service delivery where nutrition services are offered in all health facilities. This includes promoting breastfeeding, addressing malnutrition, and ensuring micronutrient supplementation; integrating health support systems where nutrition is integrated into maternal and child health programs, school health services and community-based initiatives; and

1. monitoring and evaluation where we regularly assess nutrition related indicators to track progress on malnutrition rates, micronutrient deficiencies and the effectiveness of nutrition programme.

Madam Speaker, the Government is working in close collaboration with various stakeholders to implement the National Dietary Guidelines that reflect local food cultures and health priorities. The guidelines help educate the public about health diets and appropriate portions, aiming to shift dietary patterns towards healthier and sustainable choices.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the National Food and Nutrition Commission (NFNC) in collaboration with the University of Zambia (UNZA), developed a food composition table. This is a tool used in counseling on healthy eating as it provides nutritive value on various foodstuffs. Working closely with the Zambia Bureau of Standards (ZBS) and the National Fortification Alliance, health inspectors are dotted across the boarders where they conduct physical laboratory analysis to ensure that imported food meets the dietary requirements.

Madam Speaker, the other measure being employed is the recruitment of nutritionists, dieticians and nutrition technologists, who play a crucial role in promoting health. Nutritionists address nutritional needs in people with specific medical issues, such as hypertension, obesity, diabetes, and food sensitivities. Nutritionists help clients identify destructive eating habits and implement a healthier dietary plan. The Government, through the Ministry of Health, has enhanced public awareness of the prevention and control of NCDs through community outreach programmes, social behavioral change communication, dissemination of information, education and communication materials using television, radio, print and social media, among other measures.

Madam Speaker, in 2021, the Eat-Well Campaign Zambia was launched by the Vice-President. The campaign championed by the National Food and Nutrition Commission and supported by partners such as the World Food Programme was aimed at improving household nutrition by promoting healthy eating habits. The campaign encourages people to adopt a diversified diet (emphasizing locally produced foods) for a better well-being and a healthier future. That why Her Honour The Vice-President once advised the public to change from eating white mealie to roller meal, sorghum and others, which are much more nutritious than the breakfast mealie meal. The campaign is done through community cooking demonstrations emphasizing locally grown foods that represent essential food groups.

Madam Speaker, the Government is committed to promoting healthy lifestyles to ensure that the people of Zambia are healthy. I, therefore, urge all the Members of Parliament and the public to take a leading role in promoting healthy diets and, indeed, all Zambians to eat healthy local foods. Eat Zambian food.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, the country has become what I would call vulnerable in that we have seen on the market a number of drugs and so called ‘food supplements’, some of which are not even written in languages that the people of Zambia people can understand.

Madam Speaker, to what extent is the ministry ensuring that all the food products that are from outside the country are being investigated and are safe for the people.  .

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, first of all, Zambia does not allow a food product that would come in a foreign language which is not our official language. For example, a product that has instructions only written in Chinese. That kind of food product is not supposed to be allowed in the country.

Madam Speaker, regarding the food, there are institutions under the Government that are tasked with that role, including the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. It is also important for Zambians to be told to not buy products that do not have the information that is required.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for her response. Of the risk behaviours around non-communicable diseases are tobacco usage, harmful use of alcohol, physical inactivity and unhealthy diet, which the hon. Minister has stated. My question is around tobacco, as a risk factor and what the ministry is doing to ensure that the Tobacco Control Bill, which is supposed to implement the World Health Organisation (WHO) Framework on Tobacco Control sees the light of day. I ask this question because this draft bill has been on the table since 2010 and has probably become part of the table. When are we likely to see the Tobacco Control Bill?

Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, the WHO estimates that by the year 2025, which is next year, Zambia will record 300,000 new tobacco users. So, when are we seeing the Tobacco Control Bill gracing the Floor of this House?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very important follow-up question. The Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Cabinet, did, indeed, approve the introduction of the Bill that is being talked about. The processes of that Bill have reached an advanced stage and the Government hopes that before the end of this year, the Bill should be before this House for enactment. Suffice to say that there is the Legislative Committee of the Government that looked at the Bill and out of the so many clauses in there, we disagreed on two. This is because various ministries participate in the Alcohol Bill, that is, the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Ministry of Agriculture. You will note that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning did bring a Bill that talked about tobacco and we passed that. So, there was some kind of conflict and so, the Government is looking at that conflict and trying to harmonise it. We hope that the various ministries that are still considering those two clauses will finalise this matter as quickly as possible so that this important Bill comes into effect. It is true that tobacco is killing our children.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Minister for her response. The statement indicates that 29 per cent of deaths in this country are attributed to NCDs. One of the major risk factors, as stated, is tobacco usage, with 300,000 new smokers, mostly the younger generation. There is a question where we have to balance profit on one side and preserving lives on the other. Would the Government consider prioritising preserving the lives of our people over what would look like economic growth by multi-national cigarette manufacturers?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the follow-up question. Indeed, it is an issue that is before the Cabinet Committee that has been tasked to look at this issue. Suffice to say that generally, the Government agrees to the effect that tobacco does have some negative impact on the health of not only children, but the elderly people also. To that effect, the Government intends to ensure that this Bill which seeks to limit the use of tobacco and ensure that those who use it are educated and to stop those who sell tobacco to not mislead the public with advertisements which may be misleading. So, all these issues that the hon. Member for Kanchibiya has raised are correct. The Government is alive to that fact. As I said, we have to synchronise the various pieces of legislation. It is our hope and desire that the Act comes into effect as quickly as possible.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I am the chairperson for those advocating for the control of the use of tobacco; the Parliamentary Caucus on the Control of Tobacco, and I have great interest in this matter, especially on the control of tobacco. I would want to see that Bill brought to the House. Would the hon. Minister outline the challenges or the details of these clauses which could be contentious or conflicting with other laws that exist in the country?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I can try. Firstly, the Tobacco Act seeks to put some controls and to alert the public and ensure that the people in the industry, when they are selling tobacco packets of cigarette should, for example, indicate in bold writing a warning to the young ones that tobacco is dangerous to young children and that kind of thing.

Madam Speaker, as you know, there are people in the country who may seem to be selling a ballpoint and somebody would think it is actually a ballpoint pen when it is a cigarette coated with some sweets so that children get encouraged to smoke. So, the controls are around that. With the current Act, which we have proposed under the Ministry of Health, those in the industry feel that we will put them out of business, and it is exactly what the hon. Member for Kanchibiya talked about; the issue of profit.

Madam Speaker, then there is the issue of business. If the Government causes those in the tobacco industry to lose business because now you are telling people the truth and people are scared to buy tobacco, then it is destroying the industry. That is the argument. However, let me just make this comment: this is one of the biggest challenges Zambia will continue to face. Business houses will use their muscles to influence legislators and other people because they have the resources to get what they want. I pray for a time when Zambians will rise up and look at an issue and say, is this good for our children, the next generation and the country? If we all say no, nobody should twist our arms or convince us, or use street language or resources. That is my prayer.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Speaker, the emphasis on mitigating non-communicable diseases (NCDs) is nutrition. How prepared is the ministry in terms of staffing levels of nutritionists who can guide those who may be victims of this vice?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his supplementary question because the issue of staffing in this sub-sector called nutrition has been low. You will recall that in 2022, the Government of the Republic of Zambia for the first time was able to recruit a good number of those who fall under this sector and tried to place them in all the districts of Zambia. The following year, we did the same. The good news is that this year, we shall continue to employ more nutritionists so that they can help us because this problem is real. 

Madam Speaker, at the moment, Zambia is among those countries where nutrition is a big problem. Therefore, we have a lot of work; to teach our people to stick to traditional foods, to be proud of their traditional food, get away from the fast foods, get away from alcohol and from tobacco. Zambians should join forces for once on such non-political issues, and understand that there are always forces behind businesses.

Madam Speaker, I am speaking like this because this is the same story around drugs. It is the forces behind business people that will always continue to make this country fail. Therefore, all Zambians must rise up as one to get to the real root cause of the problem, solve that problem and not to politicise it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Frist Deputy Speaker:  Thank you, hon. Minister.

Let us make progress.

_______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE ON THE REPORT OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL ON THE ACCOUNTS OF THE REPUBLIC FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR ENDED 31^ST DECEMBER, 2022, FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTEENTH NATIONAL ASSEMBLY.

 Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House adopts the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of the Republic for the Financial Year Ended 31^st December, 2022, laid on the Table of the House on 18^th July, 2024.

Madam Frist Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mwambazi: Madam, in accordance with Order No. 203 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, your Committee considered the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of the Republic for the Financial Year Ended 31^st December, 2022, and has the rare honour and privilege to present its findings before the House.

Madam Speaker, to acquaint itself with the queries cited in the Auditor-General’s Report, your Committee interacted with all controlling officers whose institutions were cited. The controlling officers tendered both written and oral submissions before the Committee.

Madam, I am aware that hon. Members of this august House have already perused through the Committee’s report.  Therefore, I shall endeavour to highlight only a few pertinent issues that emanated from the Committee’s deliberations.

Madam Speaker, one prominent issue in the Auditor-General’s Report is the procurement of fertiliser. Let me state from the outset that the Committee is very disappointed with the manner in which the procurement and delivery of Urea Fertiliser and D-Compound Fertiliser was conducted by the Ministry of Agriculture during the 2022/2023 Farming Season.

Madam, it is apparent that the procurement failed to follow the bidding and evaluation guidelines as well as the provisions of the Public Procurement Act No. 8 of 2020, and its regulations.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes that a company that failed to submit financial statements for two consecutive financial years, prior to bidding for the supply of fertiliser, was awarded a contract to supply fertiliser. This is contrary to the requirement in the instruction to bidders. Your Committee, therefore, implores the Government to ensure that the provisions of the Public Procurement Act and its regulations are followed and that instructions to bidders are strictly adhered to if the procurement and distribution of fertiliser has to improve in this country.

Madam Speaker, another matter of concern to your Committee was that in most ministries, the misplacement of payroll area is very common. This has led to a number of officers in some stations drawing salaries from pay points that are different from their physical stations. The practice makes it difficult for most ministries to account for their officers. For example, a reconciliation of the payroll and staff returns under the Ministry of Education revealed that 20,831 officers at thirty-six stations drew salaries amounting to K1.8 billion from pay points that were different from their physical stations. In light of this, your Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury to ensure that the anomaly of misplacement of payroll area for officers in various stations under different ministries is urgently resolved.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is deeply saddened that an analysis of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) database revealed that 1,002 motor vehicles whose value for duty purposes was K464,930,734 procured by various ministries using their Tax Payer Identification Numbers (TPIN’s) during the period under review were not accounted for. The motor vehicles were not recorded in the various ministries, provinces and spending agencies (MPSAs). Fleet management registers could not be traced by the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) database. What is more disturbing is that their physical whereabouts were not known as at 31^st July, 2023.

 Madam Speaker, during its interaction with the controlling officer, your Committee was informed that out of the 1,002 motor vehicles, the registration of 924 vehicles had been traced with regard to the physical location. The controlling officer submitted that the ministry had so far acknowledged the locations of 560 vehicles, but were not physically verified.

Madam Speaker, your Committee urges the controlling officer under the Ministry of Transport and Logistics, as a matter of urgency, to ensure that the Office of the Auditor-General conducts a verification process in order to ascertain the existence and physical location of the 1,002 motor vehicles bought using the TPINs of various ministries.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also inspected infrastructure projects on the Copperbelt Province, Central Province and the Southern Province to augment the findings in the Auditor-General’s Report for the Financial Year Ended 31^st December, 2021. The Auditor-General’s Report revealed several irregularities on the construction of office blocks, police stations, post offices, houses and associated external works.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is deeply saddened that stalled projects are being vandalised because contractors left the sites after the President’s pronouncement to focus on projects that were at 80 per cent and above. While acknowledging that securing a project under construction is a preserve of the contractor, your Committee notes that it has become expensive for contractors to secure projects when they do not know when funding to complete the projects would resume.  Your Committee, therefore, urges the controlling officer at the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to give a clear roadmap on how the Government intends to complete all the outstanding projects to prevent further damage to the public resources. 

Madam, your Committee also bemoans poor workmanship exhibited by the contractors on some building projects toured by your Committee. It also observes that some of the building projects do not meet the prescribed standards. That was witnessed at the police station in Chibombo District that the certified handover of works to the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security that had some parts of the ceiling already falling off. Your Committee is of the view that it is purely as a result of the lack of supervision and it wondered how such poor works were certified. In this regard, your Committee urges the controlling officer at the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to ensure that supervision of projects is enhanced.

Madam Speaker, while acknowledging that the law provides for punishment for contractors who abrogate contractual obligations, the failure to institute stern measures has exacerbated the provision of poor workmanship at the most, even abandoning projects. Contractors who have breached contractual obligations have not been stopped from participating in Government projects. In this regard, your Committee urges the controlling officer to consider blacklisting contractors who have abrogated contractual obligations to deter others from committing similar offences.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is dismayed at the non-receipt of the report on the outstanding issues for the Financial Years Ended 31^st December, 2009 to 2019. The failure by the Office of the Secretary to the Treasury to submit the report deprived your Committee of an opportunity to follow up outstanding issues and report to the House. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Secretary to the Treasury to ensure that the report on the outstanding issues is brought before the National Assembly of Zambia within the stipulated timeframe, going forward.

As I conclude, Madam Speaker, allow me to express my sincere gratitude to you and to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to it during its deliberations. It is also indebted to all the stakeholders who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary information that formed your Committee’s report.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Wamunyima: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for allowing the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) to present its report. I would like to thank the chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwana Mkubwa for ably moving this Motion.

 Madam Speaker, as earlier stated by the hon. Chairperson, the PAC, through its mandate as provided for in Article 117, Section 5 of the Constitution of Zambia and Order No. 203 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, took time to interact with witnesses.

Madam Speaker, in addition to most of the glaring disparities in the Auditor-General’s Report, I will take time to highlight a few pertinent issues as I am well aware that the hon. Members have gone through the report.

Madam Speaker, one of the pertinent issues that came up through this report, under the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation, was the questionable award of a contract by the ministry then, to the tune of over K17 million to DDYPE Company for the sinking of 192 boreholes in the Eastern Province and the Copperbelt Province. Your Committee was dismayed that that contract was awarded using a direct bidding system to a supplier who had, earlier on in 2019, an expired contract and did not deliver on similar terms. Your Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury to ensure that controlling officers follow the provisions on direct bidding as provided for in the Public Procurement Act of 2020.

Madam Speaker, further, your Committee noted the irregular inclusion of beneficiaries on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) and also getting food security packs.

Madam Speaker, your Committee was also dismayed to realise that there is no system that can pick whether a FISP beneficiary is also on the food security pack. It implored the controlling officer to ensure that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and the Ministry of Agriculture reconcile the database of the list of beneficiaries.

Madam Speaker, almost all the ministries had issues to do with the failure to settle outstanding arrears on payroll matters, and the Committee implored the controlling officers and the Secretary of the Treasury to ensure that the human resource payroll issues are adequately addressed.

Madam Speaker, the majority of ministries also had the historic issue of the Government infrastructures not having title deeds, which abrogates Section 41 of the Public Finance Management Act. For example, the skills training centre in Katete has sixteen houses illegally built by people because of the lack of title deeds.

 Madam Speaker, in addition to the 1,002 vehicles, which could not be accounted for under the Ministry of Transport and Logistics, there was an issue of 274 unaccounted for vehicles valued at K88 million that were available in the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) database, but were not at any ministry.

Madam Speaker, various glaring irregularities have been raised in this Auditor-General’s Report.

 Madam Speaker, another issue was in Chinsali District where nine teachers were employed without Grade 12 certificates and were put on payroll during the teacher’s recruitment exercise.

Madam Speaker, the controlling officers were urged, in this particular instance, to urge the Teaching Service Commission (TSC) to ensure that the matter is investigated and the report to this effect was given that the same teachers were removed from payroll and had their employment terminated.

Madam Speaker, in addition, we had issues with under-utilised developed services. It was observed that some Government entities were not willing to fully utilise mobile enforcement applications, such as Government Service Bus (GSP) and Government Payment (GP). This includes RTSA, which has failed together with the Zambia Police Service to properly use the RTSA mobile enforcement application and has insisted to continue using a manual system.

Madam Speaker, in addition to the glaring irregularities in the Ministry of Agriculture, where the ministry, together with the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) could not reconcile its imports and exports due to the lack of a proper link between the Automated System for Custom Data (ASYCUDA) system at ZRA and Zambia electronic single window, the weakness exposed the usage of the same import or export permit more than once because there was no proper online system to identify whether a permit was used for export or imports.

Madam Speaker, in addition to these observations, I would like to state here that one of the major issues that came to light was to do with eight Government vehicles registered into a personal name for a known person.

Hon. Members: Question!

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, the controlling officer was advised to ensure the issue is resolved by law enforcement officers.

Madam Speaker, with these remarks, I would like to thank you most sincerely for allowing us to deliberate with various witnesses on the Auditor-General’s report for the period under review.

Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I would like to appreciate Hon. Mwambazi, the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwana Mukubwa and the Chairperson for the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) for moving this Motion and the same goes to the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalolo, Hon. Imanga Wamunyima, for seconding it.

Madam Speaker, the report that the hon. Chairperson is proposing for the Assembly to adopt relates to the Financial Year Ended 31^st December, 2022. That means that it is from 1^st January, 2022, to 1^st December, 2022.

Hon. UPND Members: No.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, let me read from the cover of the report.

“Public Accounts Committee on The Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of the Republic for the Financial Year Ended at 31^st December, 2022.”

Madam Speaker, I have serious problems with the revelations in this report. We have been talking about direct bidding as a source of concern. What this report has said, today, on the Floor of the House is that Agrizam Investments Limited and First Seed Company were direct-bided to supply seed to the nation. The report has said that the two companies did not even meet the criteria, which are established for them to have been contracted. However, the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government went ahead and contracted –

Mr Chaatila: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Sorry, hon. Member for Lunte.

Hon. Members, there will be no more points of order. However, what I would request from the hon. Members is that, please, let our debates be focused on what is contained in the report. The hon. Ministers are going to respond to the issues that will be brought out. Let us not exaggerate and bring in things which are not part of the report. Give examples that are appropriate. That is the guidance to all the people who are going to debate.

Hon. Member for Lunte, you may continue.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, let me just clarify with you before I proceed. I do not want to appear – I am clarifying. I am not debating.

Madam Speaker, did I appear to be debating outside the report?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, do not challenge me. I was guiding the House since there will be no more points of order.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the two companies that have been cited in the report of having been contracted to supply seed in the previous farming season did not qualify, according to the very well-established criteria. This is clearly stated on page 176 of the report.

Madam Speaker, contracts for the supply of fertiliser, which went through the proper process, were cancelled. After cancelling the proper process, the UPND Government went again and allowed companies that, again, did not qualify, to bid directly.

Madam Speaker, other than causing this direct bidding, the fertiliser was even delivered late. It is in your Committee’s report and I would like to request those who do not read reports to check what is in the report. This direct bidding did not end with the Ministry of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, when you go to Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation, you will find that there were two companies which directly bidded to sink boreholes. The justification that the UPND Government gave to directly bid those two companies to sink boreholes on the Copperbelt Province, the Eastern Province and the Western Province do not appear in regulations as reasons for direct biding. What type of Government is the UPND becoming?

Madam Speaker, somebody used to stand there and say, “This bad Government, the Patriotic Front (PF)”. Now, to be very honest with you, what the Auditor-General has said, that which has been picked by the Committee’s report, is disgusting, to say the least.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, find a better word.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, it is hateful to me who represents the people of Lunte. I think that it is also hateful to those who represent other people.

Madam Speaker, here, hon. Ministers and my hon. Colleagues said that 30,000 teachers were recruited. However, how do you recruit teachers who do not have Grade 12 certificates?

Mr B. Mpundu: Hear, hear!

Basakala nyongo aba!

Mr Kafwaya: How can they say that those who do not have Grade 12 certificates should acquire them? How did they even allow those people to get teaching licenses? Those teachers are teaching to date, and the Government is saying it introduced free education. Does it know who is teaching the children in those schools where free education is being offered? Does it know the quality of teachers who are there?

Hon. Opposition Members: Failures!

Mr Kafwaya: The quality of teachers is poor because they do not qualify.

Madam Speaker, secondly, what are the conditions in the learning environment? There is a serious problem with the United Party for National Development (UPND); a serious problem that requires the people of Zambia to observe and say that this is not fit to lead the nation.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the UPND is destroying the country. You cannot have such a volume of the report (whilst holding the copy of the report) talking about the irregularities in one year; 2022. It is impossible. The volume is too big.

Ms Mulenga: Niba sakalanyongo!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the UPND must –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, talk about the content, not the size of the report.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, can you imagine ministries buying motor vehicles that are registered in individuals’ names? Can you imagine a ministry buying vehicles to the tune of K464 million, but they cannot be traced to ministries? What type of country is that?

Ms Mulenga: Muka kakwa!

Mr Kafwaya: Some people will be arrested.

There is even a case of the health personnel with two contracts, one contract with the Government and another contract in the private sector, to try to survive, but was arrested and beamed by the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) interrogators.

Be serious, you are the Government for the people. Govern the people. Do not govern thieves.

Hon. B. Mpundu: Abangeli!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, this is a –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, continue speaking to the report. Do not counsel people. Just debate the report.

Mr B. Mpundu: Angels have fallen!

Mr Nkandu: Bitterness yachilamo!

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, Mr Nkandu, thinks I am bitter. He is saying bitterness yachilamo.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us have order in the House.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am bitter about corruption. I am bitter about maladministration, I am bitter about –

Mr Mposha: You had only a few weeks as Minister!

Mr Kafwaya: Well, I have been Member of Parliament for eight years. You have been Member of Parliament for – Madam Speaker, look at this dialogue. I need your protection.

Ms Mulenga: Protect him!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, when you are on the Floor, you are supposed to address –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

When you are on the Floor, you are supposed to debate through me, regardless of whether other hon. Members are interjecting. However, all the hon. Members who are commenting or making running commentaries, please, do not debate while seated. Let us listen to the hon. Member of Parliament who is debating. We want as many hon. Members to debate. He is just the first one. He has his views. I will come to you. You will also give us your views.

 Hon. Member for Lunte, wind up your debate.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am speaking on behalf of the people of Lunte. They are the ones who elected me.

Madam Speaker, as I represent the people of Lunte, I must register my disappointment with the UPND Government. I must state that I am completely unhappy with the revelations of the Auditor-General, as reflected in the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) Report.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, the people of Luena are grateful for the opportunity to debate this report.

Mr. B. Mpundu: Interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon Members!

The hon. Member for Nkana, please, –

Interjections

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I thank you very much –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon Ministers, please try to avoid constantly communicating with the people behind you.

Interjections

Mr B. Mpundu: You are failing to control them. They are just making noise!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let us not debate while seated.

The hon. Member for Nkana, I am guiding you and the House. I do not need your feedback.

Interjections

Mr Kafwaya: Stood to leave the Assembly Chamber.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, you have just finished debating and you want to go out.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon Members!

Hon. Member for Lunte, let us observe our rules.

Interjections

Mr Kafwaya: Resumed his seat.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, for the benefit of the hon. Member for Lunte, who is a former Minister of Transport, the vehicles that he is talking about; that were not accounted for, were bought under the Patriotic Front (PF) regime.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, if anyone should have traced those vehicles, it is him.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Anakoka: Therefore, I, on behalf of the people of Luena, am happy to debate this report and thought that I should put that on record for the benefit of the people of Zambia. The report is for the year ending 31^st December 2022.

Mr Chisopa interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mkushi South, I think that the behaviour you are exhibiting is not acceptable. We all know the procedure of raising a point of order, and moreover, we said that there would be no more points of order. Therefore, let us observe –

Mr Chisopa interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mkushi South, please, leave the Chamber for today.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutinta: Kabiye ku Luano! Go to Luano!

Mr Chisopa left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, since the people of Luena are not in the habit of making statements without evidence, I will quote page 110 of the report.

Mr Amutike: Hammer, hammer, hammer!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, under Motor Vehicle Management, the vehicles were reported in the years 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2021. The report states that:

“The total number of motor vehicles recorded in the register as of 31^st December 2021 …”

Madam Speaker, the 1,000 missing vehicles were in the 4,121 registered vehicles as at December 2021.

Madam Speaker, the audit took place in 2022. The nation, therefore, should not be misled that what was reported here as findings, relates to what happened in 2022, as that was when the audit was done.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, we are grateful to recognise the background to this report. This is a report that was done at a time that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government was not in power. It has been in power for exactly one year. Therefore, what is it that the UPND Government was taking over from? It was taking over from the year 2020, when the country had defaulted on the first Euro bond. The UPND Government had taken over from an environment where there was zero international credibility, there was zero inheritance in the coffers of the country, and the corruption was at Olympic levels.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, there was a complete breakdown of the system in governance in the country. There was zero accountability and a huge mountain of debt when this Government took over. There was also zero budget credibility.

Madam Speaker, the first full National Budget to be owned by the UPND was in 2022. Soon after 2022, all the activities done by the UPND are in the report. Inflation rates were brought under control, budget credibility was restored, international respect and credibility were restored and more importantly, the Government embarked on the debt re-structuring negotiations, a very difficult process occasioned by the recklessness of the previous regime.

Madam Speaker, there was enhanced reinvigorating governance systems in the country. The UPND Government is mindful that it still has remnant and systemic issues as a result of the extent of the damage that was occasioned by the previous regime. So, the Auditor-General’s Report is highlighting some challenges that the Government has to deal with. It has a number of accounting irregularities being highlighted and a number of cases of failure to account for assets, including the 1,000 vehicles that my hon. Colleague talked about, except that he erroneously believed that they were bought under the UPND Government. I hope, the hon. Member will help, as part of the investigations, since he had a privilege to serve in the ministry as a member of the Executive.

Madam Speaker, as we, the people of Luena, support the report, we would like to encourage the Government to continue on the good path of re-organising the systems because we see that the culture of the lack of accountability is something that has become endemic and it will, obviously, take time to eradicate. The systems are designed for what is being highlighted in the report. There is a litany of unfunded projects that the Government was committed to, and that is exposing the Government to financial losses.

Madam Speaker, there is a list of incomplete projects where advance payments were made and later, the contracts for those projects were cancelled because of violation of the public financial management rules and regulations. The people of Luena hope that, moving forward, the measures that the Government has put in place will yield the desired results.

Madam Speaker, the systemic failures that people see in the system provide very fair ground for corruption to thrive on. It is no wonder that in the Financial Intelligence Center (FIC) Report that the House has been talking about throughout the week, people will find that contracts worth US$ 100 million are being reported in 2024, which were entered into in 2012. There is US$43 million that cannot be accounted for in a contract entered into in 2017. Let people not go to town and claim that all that is reported in the report is what happened since the UPND took over power. This is a record of what happened from the time of the PF Government to date, and any responsible citizen needs to understand that the country should have concerted effort applied in order to fight against the systemic challenges that the country is facing. Making political capital out of a situation that, in fact, was fertilised by the regime that the UPND took over from is not only unfair, but also irresponsible.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, the people of Luena Constituency support the report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang'andu): Madam Speaker, I would like to make a few comments on the report. I would like to start by commending the mover of the Motion, Hon. Mwambazi, and the seconder.

Madam Speaker, the report must be read holistically. I will start from where my hon. Colleague ended. He spoke about the motor vehicles. The query is about the failure to record motor vehicle details and update fleet management registers. That is the query that was raised by the Auditor-General. The vehicles were registered between the period 2016 and 2021.

Madam Speaker, as at 2021, according to the report that I have, on page 110, the number of motor vehicles recorded in the register as of 31^st December, 2021 was 4,126. So, what the Auditor-General was querying in 2022 was what had happened to that number of motor vehicles in 2022.

Madam Speaker, as hon. Members of this House we should acquaint ourselves with these reports. So, in the recommendations and observations, your Committee urges the controlling officer to expedite the automation of the registration process for motor vehicles without delays. The Committee further recommends that the controlling officer should avail supporting documents to the Office of the Auditor-General.

 So, let us be sincere as we make reference to the report, because, what my Colleague raised and the issue that I raised is well articulated in the report. So, there is no need to start showing that there was an omission from the previous Administration because it does not say that.

Madam Speaker, I will quickly go the issue raised by the chairperson of the Committee. In his submission, he talked about the procurement of fertiliser at the Ministry of Agriculture. He also highlighted the issues pertaining to the failure to adhere to the Public Procurement Act by responsible officers at the Ministry of Agriculture.

Ms Mulenga interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we lamented on the Floor of this House that the failures at the Ministry of Agriculture by the technical staff were pointing to corruption, because that is the only way to beat the law.

Madam Speaker, we also heard how difficult it was for the Auditor-General to access information from the hon. Minister of Agriculture. So, it was an issue of the information being availed by those responsible for the procurement of fertiliser. Where have we ended up? The production of food has been affected.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, Her Honour the Vice-President received maize from a small country, which is the same size as Muchinga Province.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kampyongo: Now, –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, is that in the report?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, it is in the report on procurements.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yesterday?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, let us try as much as possible to stick to the report.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you may continue, but please stick to the report at hand.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I am talking about the irregularities that were highlighted in the procurement of farming inputs. My colleague (pointing at Hon. K. Mulenga) was talking about the seeds.

Ms Mulenga interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, if we ignore the law –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member of Kalulushi, I think, we are tired of that behaviour.

Mr Mapani: Ati Chairlady!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, this is the last time I am warning you.

Hon. Member for Shiwangandu, you may continue.

Ms Mulenga: Lekeni ndeya.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, this query is very significant because it affects the food security of this nation. We complained in this House of how our farmers were sharing fertiliser in ama meda, why? It was because the people who were given the contracts to supply fertiliser were not competent, and they did not deliver in accordance with the contracts and as required by the law. What did we end up with? Poor yields for our farmers, and some of the fertilisers that were supplied were of sub-standard. Why? This is because the law was ignored.

Madam Speaker, we have established companies that have been in the business of supplying farming inputs, but they were ignored. So, because of corruption, companies were selected without due diligence, and without making available the financial statements. As a result, we got small harvests in areas where we should have had huge harvests.

Madam Speaker, today, we should celebrate receiving maize from Rwanda which we can feed with food from one province. So, if the people who are responsible for procurement had done their duties by following the law, that would not have happened.

Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleague was talking about the imbalance as highlighted in the report and as alluded to by the seconder of the Motion, between the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) and the Food Security Pack (FSP). What has happened is that because of the lack of co-ordination, most of the viable and productive farmers, who were beneficiaries of the FISP, were denied an opportunity to have inputs. This was because of the change of Government and some people thought it was time to just favour those who were in the Ruling Party. As a result, others were benefiting twice; beneficiaries of both the FISP and the FSP, disadvantaging the vulnerable, but viable farmers who could have produced food and made Zambia food secure.

Madam Speaker, today, the cost of a bag of mealie meal is high because we do not have maize, and we should celebrate with Her Honour the Vice-President for receiving a few metric tonnes from Rwanda, a small country that can be fed by one province, Muchinga Province. If farmers are capacitated and given the right inputs –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, from the way you are talking about that donation, how do you think the people from Rwanda or the Government of Rwanda are feeling?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam, I am speaking the truth.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let us try to be very careful with our words.

Mr Kampyongo: They are being generous to us, but we could have avoided the generosity.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: However, even the reason for the donation is not that people failed to produce because of misappropriation or anything. It is because of the drought. So, let us, please, be more factual as we are debating.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, yes, we acknowledge the drought, but remember that in areas where we did not have drought, people did not have fertiliser. That is a fact. Yes, we appreciate the donation we received from the bigger country, Rwanda, but we would not have needed that donation if our farmers were capacitated to produce their own food. That is a fact. In here, we told our hon. Colleague, who was jumping when saying that he was not going to stop exporting maize (pointed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture). He exported the little that was produced. We lamented here.

Mr Mtolo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo: A few metric tonnes which we produced were sold off. Today, he should seat there and say nothing.

Madam Speaker, the highlighted queries in this report affect the nation negatively. Now, we are grappling with food insecurity. We could have prepared for the drought. It is not the first time we are experiencing a drought.

Madam Speaker, I want to support your Committee and it must be urged to continue holding controlling officers like those at the Ministry of Agriculture accountable for their corruption.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Kampyongo: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank you for the opportunity to debate the report of your Committee on Public Accounts.

Madam Speaker, indeed, I would like to state from the outset that I support the report of your Committee, which was professionally done. The Motion was well moved by the chairperson, the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa and seconded by the hon. Member for Nalolo.

Madam Speaker, my debate will take quite a different approach. I want to just put things into context so that we understand why we debate reports such as this one when we come to the House.

Madam Speaker, Article 249 of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016 creates the institution of the Auditor-General and Article 250 outlines the powers that have been given to that very important office of our land. It describes the work that it is supposed to do for the Republic, which includes auditing accounts of public institutions that are being reported to the public through this House.

Madam Speaker, indeed, the Office of the Auditor-General did carry out its work in accordance with the provision of the law. In carrying out its work, the key statutes it used were the Public Finance Management Act No.1 of 2018 and the Public Procurement Act, which guided its work so that it can come up with a sound report that we can rely on to take corrective actions. It is from that and understanding the work of the institution that we would be meaningfully debating and not have a situation in which the Opposition is all over saying things just to hoodwink people out there to listen to what they are saying.

Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to put the record straight. By the way, the Office of the Auditor-General is mandated to audit institutions on the accounts for periods that have not been audited and report in a particular fiscal year. So, the report we are looking at here, is for the fiscal year 2022. However, the periods being audited are past. Can this very important submission be noted.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, the periods that it is looking at are past periods. For example, if one looks at pages 59 to 76 of the report, one will notice that they contain details of incomplete infrastructure. Contracts were awarded and people took off with money and the like.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, there is a column in the report showing dates. I can see a date in 2014. In 2014, was the United Party for National Development (UPND) in power?

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Kambita: The latest date I am seeing is somewhere around 2020. In 2020, was the UPND in power?

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Kambita: Those are the details contained in this report. So, one needs to, first of all, understand the mandate of the Auditor-General in terms of audits and how it carries out its work for one to address the report appropriately. We have all this time. The Opposition will have a field day as we look at the report and the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) Report.

Madam Speaker, the first item in the FIC report, for instance, is one of the issues that is in the debate. The FIC report is mostly talking about issues to do with a contract of US$100 million which was awarded in 2012.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: If I read the FIC report correctly, in 2012, ‘ministry S’ signed a contract with ‘company A D’’ for the design, rehabilitation and building of Government infrastructure units across the country. It was noted that all the time the contracts were awarded to ‘company A D’, it had only been in existence for one year.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: This is an example. This was 2012. Who was in charge in 2012?

Hon. UPND Members: The PF!

Mr Kambita: So, as we debate, can we put these things in context.

Madam Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) has the audacity of being everywhere in the media, social media and on the Floor of the House to speak louder than everyone else, but, …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you are doing fine. Just concentrate on the report.

Mr Kambita: …just saying something that would hoodwink people who are not knowledgeable. No, no. I think, we have a duty to set the record straight. For us who are well-informed, one will not lie to us. We will inform the people of the correct position. This report addresses past issues. If there is anything current, please, pinpoint it. That is why you can see that when they come out strong, they come up with blanket statements. They cannot itemise issues the way I am itemising them.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: So, this is the difference. For now, that is the difference between us and that regime. For us, we are emphasising on budget credibility. Expenditure will not be expended without looking at the budget.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: We are following the statutes I have referred to in managing public resources.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Wait, in a few more years, you will see the kind of audit report that will come out for the periods that will have been managed by the UPNP. They will be of a very good quality.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita:  So, for this, we are still dealing with the mess –

Madam Speaker, I do not know if that word is allowed. If not, I will replace it with the challenges that these people left. We are still dealing with them and, therefore, they need to salute us.  For now, they need to salute us. Going on top of the mountain to say anything that they want to say just to be relevant will not help them to salvage some popularity.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita:  Madam Speaker, I thought I should set the record straight in their faces so that they stop waffling all over, and just be relevant in this debate.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 23^rd July, 2024.

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