Wednesday, 26th March, 2025

Wednesday, 26^th March, 2025

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM POPLAR PRIMARY SCHOOL

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of pupils and teachers from Poplar Primary School in Lusaka District.

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VISITORS FROM LUSAKA CENTRAL PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of visitors from Lusaka Central Parliamentary Constituency, Lusaka District.

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM MACHA GIRLS SECONDARY SCHOOL

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of pupils and teachers from Macha Girls secondary school in Choma District.

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VISITORS FROM SOLWEZI EAST PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of visitors from Solwezi East Parliamentary Constituency in Mushindamo District.

Mr Mweene: Balonga bami!

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

CONSTRUCTION OF A CRÈCHE WITHIN THE PRECINCTS OF PARLIAMENT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that as part of its reform agenda, the National Assembly of Zambia, has commenced engagements aimed at constructing a Crèche within the precincts of Parliament. The Crèche is a daycare facility for young children while their parents and guardians are engaged in official business.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: I will, therefore, be unveiling the foundation stone for the construction of the Crèche on Thursday, 27^th March, 2025, at 0900 hours, at Parliament, Buildings. The detailed programme will be shared to guide the hon. Members. The unveiling of the foundation stone for the Crèche is being done in March, the month that is globally designated for women. This is testament of our commitment to creating a gender and child friendly environment within the precincts of Parliament. I am, therefore, extending an invitation to all hon. Members of Parliament in the House to attend the unveiling of the foundation stone for the Crèche on a voluntary basis.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Imita ufole!

Laughter

Madam Speaker: The Crèche can also be used by male hon. Members whose spouses have left them to care for their children or grandchildren. So, we need the support of the male hon. Members of Parliament.

Thank you very much. Let us make progress.

Hon. Members, there is no Urgent Matter without Notice that will be admitted today. As guided yesterday, in accordance with our Standing Orders, hon. Member for Chilubi, we need to give the responsible hon. Ministers forty-eight hours within which to come back with a Ministerial Statement. So, on that ground alone, we cannot admit because we will be in breach of our Standing Orders.

Mr Fube interjected.

Madam Speaker: Let us make progress.

Madam Speaker: Do you want me to answer you, hon. Member for Chilubi? You can come to my office and I will give you a response.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

ON-GOING VERIFICATION PROCESS FOR STUDENTS ON BURSARIES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity to update this august House and the nation on the screening process for students at the University of Zambia (UNZA), under the Government Student Loan Scheme administered by the Higher Education Loan and Scholarships Board (HELSB). This response follows an Urgent Matter without Notice raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte Constituency, Mr Mutotwe Kafwaya, regarding the screening process of students at the university.

Madam Speaker, allow me to take this opportunity to express our sympathy to students who may have experienced disruptions in their leaning during the screening exercise. However, I must clarify that the Ministry of Education is not undertaking any validation or matriculation for student loans at UNZA. The term matriculation refers to the formal process of becoming a student at a university or college by fulfilling specific academic requirements. In the case of UNZA, students are already admitted and registered by the institution itself, and there is no stage at which the ministry validates this admission process.

Further, I wish to clarify to the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Mutotwe Kafwaya, that the Government does not provide bursaries at UNZA, but, it administers the student loan scheme through HELSB. For this reason, what is taking place at UNZA is not a validation or matriculation, but rather a screening process for students receiving Government loans.

The screening exercise is a critical process designed to verify and authenticate students benefitting from Government-sponsored student loans. The process ensures that financial support is disbursed accurately and transparently to deserving students. The verification process is conducted in two phases targeting first-year and returning students. For first-year students, the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Board (HELSB) initially releases a provisional list of loan awardees. Once the students have registered with the university, they are required to present themselves to HELSB for authentication before being formally captured in the HELSB Student Management System. At that stage, key personal details, including banking information necessary for student allowance disbursement, are collected. The step is crucial in mitigating fraud risks and ensuring that funds are allocated correctly to registered students.

Madam Speaker, for returning students, the loan is valid for only one academic year and must be renewed annually subject to satisfactory academic performance. Further, some students may secure alternative sponsorship during the academic year while others may not progress to the next level. The screening process ensures that only eligible students continue receiving financial support. Additionally, the exercise provides an opportunity for students to update critical information, such as changes in bank details, study programme or address. Screening is conducted in close collaboration with university management and the University of Zambia Students Union (UNZASU). The university advises HELSB on the appropriate dates to carry out the process ensuring minimal disruption to academic activities. Students are notified accordingly and screening is conducted only after they have completed their course registration and obtained their confirmation slips as proof of registration.

Madam Speaker, the Government acknowledges the concerns raised regarding the potential disruption of academic activities due to the screening process. In response, HELSB and UNZA have implemented the following measures to streamline the process and minimise disruptions:

students have been advised to present themselves for screening only when they do not have classes;

screening is organised by school and year of study to manage student flow;

HELSB officers are working on weekends to ensure all students are attended to efficiently;

the screening exercise, originally scheduled for twenty-four days from 17^th March, 2025, will be reviewed at the end of the given period and extensions will be made if necessary; and

the university has provided HELSB with a dedicated office where students who may not have been screened within the allocated timeframe can still be attended to.

Madam Speaker, to further enhance efficiency, HELSB is leveraging digital systems to streamline student verification. The Government is committed to modernising student administration processes by integrating HELSB’s screening procedures with existing student management systems at universities. Additionally, HELSB has been developing its own student management system, which is expected to be operational before the end of this year. Once fully implemented, the system will eliminate the need for in-person screening, thereby, reducing delays and improving efficiency.

Madam Speaker, the Government remains committed to improving higher education administration to enhance service delivery and minimise disruptions to students’ academic progress. Through continuous engagement with key stakeholders, we will ensure that loan disbursement and screening procedures are efficient, student-friendly and aligned with best practice.

With those remarks, Madam Speaker, I wish to assure the House that the ministry, in collaboration with HELSB and UNZA management, will continue working towards a more seamless and automated system that enhances access to student loans while upholding transparency, accountability and operational efficiency.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I am glad that we have saved about thirteen minutes. I am saving time because I know that hon. Members will need more time during the next Ministerial Statement. So, let us move fast on this Ministerial Statement and save time for the next one. Depending on how much time we save, we can accord more time to the next Ministerial Statement.

Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the Ministerial Statement presented by the hon. Minister of Education.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, with the guidance you have given regarding the less important state of this Ministerial Statement, I would like to be specific. I wish to appreciate the hon. Minister for recognising the disruption caused to students at the University of Zambia (UNZA). I just want to correct him. What happened last week was not potential disruption, but actual disruption because students stayed out whole days trying to go through the screening process. The hon. Minister should clarify what his ministry officers think I should have said for the nation to be lectured on what matriculation is. My problem was and still is that UNZA –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Lunte!

Ask a question on a point of clarification. Do not debate or challenge the contents of the Ministerial Statement.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, let me shoot directly.

Madam Speaker, both UNZA and the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB) are under the Ministry of Education. The matriculation that the children achieved is under UNZA, which is also under the same ministry. Why should the children be subjected to long hours of screening when their details sit in one ministry? They have been matriculated by UNZA.

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, at the risk of repeating myself – I explained the details adequately. It does not matter whether UNZA or HELSB is under the Ministry of Education. I explained the reason students have to undergo the process again. The board cannot award a student a bursary if he or she fails. The board has to authenticate the results. That is why I said that the ministry is trying to streamline the process by ensuring that those processes are digitalised. For a long time, that was not being done, but we have started.

Madam Speaker, in 2024, there were only 14,000 students who were undergoing screening, but now we have 19,258 students. The number is growing. It is better to give them loans, and increase the numbers. I have already stated to the House how much work the ministry is going to do by the end of the year. We have already piloted the systems at another university; the Zambia University College of Technology (ZUT). It is a small university, but we have managed the numbers. We will transfer the project to bigger universities, such as UNZA. Otherwise, I answered the hon. Member’s question, as contained in the response.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity you have given me to ask a question, and I thank the hon. Minister for the elaborate Ministerial Statement.

Madam Speaker, I just want clarity on eligibility for student loans. I think, students who perform well in Grade 12 and score six or seven points have access to the loans regardless of where they come from, even if they come from well-to-do families. When there are students with nine points who come from vulnerable families, how does the ministry harmonise that situation?

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, that is a totally new question, away from the Ministerial Statement I presented. The hon. Member can come to my office to get the information on the criteria that are used. I cannot just give that information off the cuff. My statement was in response to a matter that was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte. So, the things that the hon. Member is now bringing in are totally different.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us ask questions on points of clarification arising from the statement that has been presented by the hon. Minister.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, twenty years ago, when some of us enrolled at a university, the manual process was very normal. However, because times have advanced, we clearly need to digitalise the process of capturing details for students.

Madam Speaker, for first-year students, it is definitely a must that their details are captured because it is the first time that they are interacting with a university. However, for returning students, whose details have already been captured in the system. Clearly, there must be a different way of dealing with that particular problem so that we focus on the first-year students.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has not indicated the timeline for migration to a digital process. He has only mentioned the pilot project in Ndola. For the bigger universities, when is the ministry migrating to a digital system that will not require students to keep registering or screened every year when their details are already in the databases?

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa was very attentive when I was reading the statement; I could see him. I indicated that we will do that by the end of the year. That is what I said.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Katakwe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, I am rising on a point of order concerning the strange things people carry in the House. Hon. Fube is carrying a very big envelope and, maybe, it contains some drones carrying ammunition or guns.

Madam Speaker: May the Serjeant-At-Arms verify and see what is being carried. I have not seen anything. The hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi is said to be carrying some big envelope. It could be kasaka ka ndalama.

Laughter

Mr Fube gave an envelope to a House messenger.

Madam Speaker: We have saved thirty-six minutes from the first Ministerial Statement. So, we will see how we can increase the time for the next item under this segment by the thirty-six minutes that we have saved from the first item, if we need to do so.

PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS

The Minister of Justice (Ms Kasune): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you most sincerely for giving me this opportunity to issue a Ministerial Statement on the proposed constitutional amendments.

Mr Chisopa: Question!

Ms Kasune: The keyword is ‘proposed’.

Mr Kapyanga: Question!

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, you will recall that the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, during the Fourth Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, on 28^th February, 2025, presented to this august House the Progress Made in the Application of National Values and Principles. The President highlighted a number of measures taken by the New Dawn Government to uphold National Values and Principles. Among the key notable issues was the need to amend the Constitution, primarily to improve equitability and fairness in the distribution and delivery of national resources, especially the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), through delimitation and subdivision of overly large constituencies both by land mass or geographical size and population.

Madam Speaker, delimitation is a critical issue in addressing equality versus equity. The two words mean different things and the concern of this Government is that there should be equitable distribution of the national cake to all, regardless of tribe, region where they come from or creed. Therefore, the New Dawn Administration, as outlined in the Party Manifesto for 2021 to 2026, remains committed to establishing a constitutional order that will catalyse the political, economic and social development of the country.

Madam Speaker, the Government is fully aware of the need for broad-based consensus among all Zambians, upon which the Constitution reform agenda will be anchored. However, that approach requires a wholesome amendment to the Constitution, which process, as we all know, is costly and lengthy. In this regard, the Government intends to deal with only non-contentious issues so as to address the lacunae or gaps identified in the Constitution. The identified non-contentious issues shall be published in the Government Gazette for thirty days before the introduction of a Bill for First Reading in the National Assembly so as to garner wide and inclusive consensus building on the issues, especially through the hon. Members of Parliament as representatives of the people. This approach, as provided under Article 79 of the Constitution, is not only consultative, but cost-effective.

Madam Speaker, over the years, this country has undertaken various constitutional review processes, which included the:

Chona Constitution Review Commission in 1973, before I was even born;

Mvunga Constitution Review Commission in 1991;

Mwanakatwe Constitution Review Commission in 1996;

Mung’omba Constitution Review Commission in 2005;

Zaloumis Led Electoral Reform Technical Committee in 2005;

National Constitutional Conference in 2005; and

Annel Silungwe Led Technical Committee on drafting of the Constitution in 2012; and

National Dialogue Forum established by the National Dialogue Constitutional Electoral Process Public Order and Political Parties Act No. of 2019.

Madam Speaker, these constitutional review commissions and dialogue forums produced progressive reports on key issues as follows:

to enhance the representation of the marginalised members of our society, particularly women, youth and people with disabilities;

delimitation of constituencies, which was also highlighted in the 2019 Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) report under the then leadership of the Patriotic Front (PF);

the inclusion of Members of Parliament in local authorities;

the electoral petitions that we have witnessed as a country;

by-elections;

election of mayors and their term;

qualification of the Secretary to the Cabinet; and

the timeframe and the appointment of the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, the Government, in the spirit of transparency and accountability, wishes to highlight the key non-contentious issues, which have been raised over the years and advocated for refinement in the Constitution by various stakeholders who include, among others, different political parties, civil society organisations, religious mother bodies, Judges of our Supreme Court, academia, professional bodies and associations, traditional institutions, constitutional experts, student bodies, women organisations and the youth.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to be advised that in July 2024, the ECZ embarked upon the Electoral Reform Technical Committee (ERTC), whose membership as of last year July included the following:

the Zambia Centre for Inter-Party Dialogue (ZCID), representing all political parties;

the Evangelical Fellowship of Zambia (EFZ);

Zambia Conference of Bishops (ZCB);

Council of Churches in Zambia (CCZ);

Independent Churches of Zambia (ICOZ);

Islamic Supreme Council of Zambia (ISCZ);

Christian Churches Monitoring Groups (CCMG);

Academia;

University of Zambia (UNZA);

Copperbelt University (CBU);

Human Rights Commission (HRC);
Government Departments;
eminent persons, represented in particular to name Mr Robson Chongo; Centre for Young Leaders in Africa (CYLA);

Operation Young Vote (OYV); and

Zambia Law Development Commission (ZLDC).

Madam Speaker, these are a few among others. The ERTC was put in place to collect views from the different stakeholders on what should be done to improve the electoral system. The ECZ will make its publication on the views of the ERTC. Among the issues discussed was the need for delimitation. Stakeholders also called for the amendment of the Constitution because it affects elections and how they are managed in this country, citing Article 52 on the cancellation of an election as a result of resignation of different candidates, leading to the disruption of the entire process. Article 58(5) also needs to be actualised because Article 68(2), which prescribes the number of Members of Parliament as 156, prohibits the delimitation process unless these two provisions are harmonised.

Madam Speaker, allow me to outline the prominent issues we will present to our hon. Colleagues and the nation. They are as follows:

Delimitation of New Constituencies and Wards by the Electoral Commission of Zambia

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, and, indeed, my hon. Colleagues, the Constitution, Chapter One of the Laws of Zambia, provides for a fixed number of constituencies in the country, which today stands at 156. The ECZ is mandated, at intervals of not more than ten years, to review, name the boundaries of constituencies, wards and districts, one would add. Let us remember, this came into force in the amendment of the Constitution of 2016. It is proposed that Articles 58 and 68 be amended to provide for the actualisation of delimitation of constituencies and wards to be determined by the ECZ. As already referred to, delimitation will provide equity in the distribution of resources particularly the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), based on the population and the geographical size of the landmass. Equality versus equity. One would liken it to having the same amount of money when you have ten children and another person has one child. Guess who is going to go far? Who is going to do more for their child? It is the one with one child, not the one with the ten children. Imagine constituencies which are so large, such as Kanchibiya, Katombola, Kasempa and compare them with my brother’s constituency, Lufubu, Ngabwe and my constituency, Keembe Constituency. This is the injustice and the inequality that the Government and the people of Zambia are concerned about.

The Need to Revise the Provision Relating to the Fresh Nomination on Resignation of the

Candidates in an Election

Madam Speaker and indeed, my hon. Colleagues, I really want us to follow the items so that there is no speculation or addition. The Constitution, under Article 52(6), mandates the ECZ to cancel an election and require fresh filling of nominations once a candidate resigns. The proposal, therefore, is to amend the aspect relating to candidates resigning for the purpose of disrupting the entire election process, so that the remaining candidates will proceed in the participation of the election, as opposed to requiring the new filing in of nomination and starting the process all over again.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: This has been an unnecessary cost to the Government and indeed, to all of us who are in the political arena. Who knows, unreasonable leaders could use this Clause to allow others to resign so that they continue to run for many unneeded years. This is part of what we are suggesting to be cured.

Introduction of an Electoral System that Enhances the Presentation or Representation of Women, Youths and Persons with Disabilities in the National Assembly and the Local Government (Seats for Mayors and Councilors)

Madam Speaker, it has been noted that the current electoral system of first-past-the-post does not provide or guarantee seats for women, youths and persons with disability in the National Assembly. Therefore, it is proposed that the Constitution under Article 47(2) and 68, be amended so as to guarantee representation of women, youths and persons with disabilities.

Introduction of Members of Parliament in the Council.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members should go back to the councils.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, the Constitution, under Article 153(2), does not include hon. Members of Parliament –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, please, let us listen. If you have any comment, just take note. We want to listen and the public wants to hear what the issues are. That is why the statement has been brought. So, let us not interrupt, please.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Ms Kasune: Thank you, Madam Speaker and thank you, hon. Colleagues.

Madam Speaker, as I said, the Constitution, under Article 153(2), does not include hon. Members of Parliament as being part of their respective councils. It is, therefore, proposed not forced, but proposed, that Article 153(2), be amended in order to include Members of Parliament on the list of people to constitute the council.

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: This shall ensure that hon. Members of Parliament as the people's representatives take part in the developmental activities undertaken by the council and indeed, play their role as hon. Members of Parliament.

Provide for The Hearing and Determination of An Election Petition.

Madam Speaker, I hope hon. Members are tracking. The Constitution in its current form, according to Article 73(2), 101(5) and 103(2), provides that a Parliament election petition and Presidential election petition shall be heard within ninety and fourteen days of the filing of the petition, respectively. The proposal is therefore, that this provision be amended to clarify that the petitions shall not only be heard, but also be determined within the specified time frame as provided in the Constitution. This will avert the unforeseen or unnecessary situation that the country was or found itself in 2016.

Revise the Provision Relating to By- Elections.

Madam Speaker, the Constitution under Article 57(1), provides a by-election in the event of a vacancy in the office of a Member of Parliament, Mayor, Council Chairperson and Councillor. We are all well aware that people have repeatedly lamented that we have become a country of election and less is put on developmental issues. Not only that, the cost on the Treasury and indeed, from all of us derails and destabilises the developmental projects and indeed, the business that we should be doing as a country. The House may wish to note that from 2021 to date, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), spent K264 million plus just on by- elections alone, elections at constituency and ward levels. This does not include the money that each one of you as hon. Members spent. Statistics have shown that an hon. Member would spend nearly or about K3.9 million during the same period.

Madam Speaker, by-election distracts business and development by diverting people's attention and resources in this unnecessary process. This money could have built schools, hospitals, bridges and indeed, many other things that are important to save our people. It is, therefore, proposed that Article 57, be amended to do away with by-elections as has already been mentioned.

Increase in the Number of Nominated Members to Parliament.

Madam Speaker, the Constitution under article 68(2)(b) provides that there shall be not more than eight nominated members by the President. It is proposed that Article 68(2)(b) be amended to increase the number of nominated members based on the same ratio we have currently and the constituencies that will be enforced. The key point is that the same percentage and ratio is as it is. Hon. Members, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Ms Kasune: … for example, out of the 156 constituencies which are currently there, if you do maths properly, Hon Kafwaya, you will see that it is about 5 per cent plus that has been used. That is how we get the eight nominated Members. The same 5 per cent plus will be used if we have 200 constituencies, for example. So, the percentage does not change, but it may change in numbers because of what will be suggested by the ECZ.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Harmonise the Term of Members of Parliament

This is where hon. Members need to hear me.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members

Interruptions

Ms Kasune: I hope when I am done, they will say, “Question!” Number eight seeks to harmonise the tenure of office for hon. Members.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: Currently, hon. Members are actually short changed by three months. Tell me this is not a Clause you want to see, hon. Members. The Constitution, under Article 81, provides that the term of the Member of Parliament shall be five years starting from the date that the Member of Parliament is sworn into office after the general election until Parliament is dissolved.

This is a period of only four years and nine months, short-changing hon. Colleagues and those who have gone before us by three months. Therefore, the proposal is that Article 81 and Article 266 be amended to actualise the term of office to provide for the full period of five years according to the Constitution.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Vacancy of the Office of the Minister

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, the Constitution under Article 116(3) provides for vacancy in the office of the Minister. It is proposed that the Article be amended so that the office of the Minister becomes vacant ninety days before holding the next general elections.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, which means that the five-year tenure proposal is only applicable to hon. Members. That shall avoid the illegal stay –

Interruptions

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, can I get the attention of the House.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let us listen so that we get the points. You might ask a question that is wrong because you were not listening. So, please, bear with the hon. Minister. Allow her to give you the information.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I am grateful to you and my hon. Colleagues.

Madam Speaker, the amendment of Article 116 provides that the office of the Minister becomes vacant ninety days before holding the next general elections. That shall avoid the illegal stay of Ministers in office and use of public resources for campaign purposes, as was seen in the previous …

Hon. UPND Members: Regime!

Ms Kasune: … regime. This is in line with the judgement of the Constitutional Court, as stated in the case of Steven Katuka suing as Secretary-General of the United Party for National Development (UPND) and the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) versus the Attorney-General, Ngosa Simbyakula and sixty-two others.

Removal of the term limit for the Office of the Mayor

Madam Speaker, you will note that there is no term limit on hon. Members and Councillors. Why is there a term limit for Mayors? We find that discriminatory. Article 154(2)(b) of the Constitution provides that the Mayor and Council Chairperson hold office for two terms. That does not apply to other offices, as I have already alluded to. It is proposed, therefore, that Article 154(2)(b) be amended to remove the two-term limit for the offices of the Mayor and Council Chairperson to stop the discriminatory practice, and ensure consistency and equality in the running of our Government.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: I am almost concluding, Madam Speaker.

Revision of Qualification to the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet

Madam Speaker, the provision of qualifications to the Office of the Secretary-General –

Hon. Members: Which Secretary General?

Ms Kasune: Sorry. I mean the Office of the Secretary to Cabinet. Madam Speaker, the Constitution under Article 176(3) limits the qualification to only individuals who have been at the level of Permanent Secretary (PS) for over ten years or equivalent. It is proposed, therefore, that Article 176(3) be amended to revise the qualification of the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet to five years and equivalent in order to expand the pool of suitable and qualified candidates who may not have been at the PS level.

Revision of the Provisions Relating to a Vacancy in the Office of the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General

Madam Speaker, the Constitution under Article 178(1)(b) and Article 179(4)(b) provides that the Office of the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General be vacated whenever a new President assumes office. It has been noted that that creates an unnecessary vacuum which affects the operations and, indeed, the country in terms of sound legal advice during that period. It is, therefore, proposed that the Articles be amended to provide for the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General to continue holding office until the formal appointment of new office bearers.

Revision of the Definition of a Child and an Adult

Madam Speaker, the Constitution under Article 266 provides for the definition of the word “child” as a person under the age of eighteen and “adult” as a person who has attained or is above the age of eighteen. It has been observed that the Article lacks clarity because it deems a child as a person who has attained the age of eighteen. It is proposed, therefore, that the word “child” be amended to provide clarity.

Madam Speaker, it is in light of the above that I wish to present to this august House the proposal for the roadmap on the enactment of the Constitution with proposed timelines as follows:

Madam Speaker, as of 26^th March, 2025, I have stood in front of this House to clearly spell out and number the items that are being proposed. By 22^nd April, 2025, the report by the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) will be submitted to the Executive, as we saw in the submission of the report in 2019. The report will look into delimitation, by-elections and a system to provide for equal representation of women, youths and persons with disability. The Ministry of Justice will then commence drafting the amendments into a Bill. So, to be categorical, there is no Bill that is already out there. We put that to rest.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisopa: Ask Hamasaka!

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, the provisions I have outlined are proposals to be considered in the Bill. The process will go on for a month from 23^rd April, 2025, to 20^th May, 2025. The House may wish to note that the report will be for public consumption. From 21^st May, 2025, to 21^st June, 2025, publication of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2025, will be in the Gazette to run for thirty days, as prescribed in our Constitution under Article 79.

Madam Speaker, on 24^th June, 2025, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2025 will be presented in the House. Thereafter, from 26^th June, 2025 to 15^th July, 2025, the Select Committee will look at the Bill and prepare a report. By 17^th July, 2025, the Select Committee will report back to the House with its observations and recommendations. The Second Reading of the Bill will be on 22^nd July, 2025, and the Third Reading will be on 25^th July, 2025. That is how we shall proceed.

Madam Speaker, in Article 79, there is a caveat in relation to the amendment of the Constitution. Therefore, hon. Members will be given a chance to vote. That is not simple voting because it will require a two-third majority.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: Only then, will the Bill pass.

Madam Speaker, we are all aware that in accordance with Article 79 of the Constitution of Zambia, Cap. 1, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2025 is required to be supported by a two-third majority of hon. Members of Parliament at both Second and Third Readings. Sorry, I had gone ahead of my written speech. That provision is a safeguard to ensure that the sovereign will of the people of Zambia is exercised through their hon. Members of Parliament. Therefore, no one, not even this Government or future Governments, can bulldoze the process. Hon. Colleagues are responsible for what they want for the Zambian people.

As I conclude, Madam Speaker, I want to make it clear for the avoidance of doubt that there is no intention or mention whatsoever in the proposed amendments by the New Dawn Government to increase the tenure of office for the Republican President to more than five years.

Interruptions

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I want to make it clear that there is no proposal for a seven-year term for the Presidency. That is the point I am making, unless my English is becoming difficult for some people to understand. There is no such proposal Hon. Members should hear it from the horse’s mouth; there is no proposal for the President’s tenure of office to increase from five years to seven years. There is none at all.

Madam Speaker, I want to be very clear because we are bound by the statements we make in this House. There is no proposal to remove the requirement of 50 plus 1 per cent of the vote for one to become President. This is a statement that I want to make publicly to all hon. Members. I want it to sink in to the naysayers that they are adding things to this matter that do not exist. So, there is no draft law or proposal to increase the tenure of office for the President from five years to seven years. Further, there is no clause in the proposed Bill to remove the 50 plus 1 per cent provision for the Presidency.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, as I wind up, I want to be categorical by stating that Mr Hakainde Hichilema became President of the Republic of Zambia because of the same 50 plus 1 per cent requirement for the Presidency. Without that provision in the Constitution, maybe, he would not be President today. So, that is an important provision that we need to safeguard as Zambians so that we are not ruled by someone who wins by a majority of less than 50 per cent.

Madam Speaker, allow me to repeat, as I have already done, that the above mentioned proposals are the only provisions we are asking to be considered. Therefore, I wish to urge this august House and the public to take this rare opportunity to ensure that the identified non-contentious proposals are supported to help us attain a constitutional amendment that is cost-effective, timely and durable for the sake of generations yet to come.

Madam Speaker, we need to collectively address the general concerns of the Zambian people because the issues mentioned above have repeatedly been advocated over the years by a cross section of people in our nation, as highlighted by the constitutional review reports I outlined earlier. We must put those issues into effect, once and for all, and give the Zambian people a Constitution that is timely and meets the needs of our time.

Madam Speaker, I wish to end by saying that the Constitution is a live document. It must have all the provisions to guide us. Therefore, every generation has a responsibility to amend the law to address prevailing challenges and needs.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: That was a long statement.

Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarifications on the Ministerial Statement presented by the hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Chisopa (Mkushi South): Madam Speaker, when I tell the hon. Members in the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government that they are going, they always argue.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let me give guidance. We are not here –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, this is a very serious process. We are not here to make jokes or to pull at each other’s legs. Please, when you stand up, ask your question. You should get to the point and ask a question. I am giving every hon. Member not more than one minute within which to ask a question on a point of clarification. If any hon. Member goes beyond the time allocated, we will skip that person and go to the next hon. Member. I am doing this because I want as many hon. Members as possible to ask questions on points of clarification. Are we agreed?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: So, hon. Member for Mkushi South, please, be serious and get to the point. Do not worry about who is going or coming back. I am giving you a second opportunity.

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, what has been brought to this House is what was contained in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019.

Interruptions

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, today, we have been vindicated. That shows that we can never trust the UPND Government.

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, just a few weeks ago, the Head of State was on record as having said that the draft Constitution is ready. Where have they brought –

Madam Speaker: Order!

We can skip this process and go to the next item.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: Yes, let us skip it because even us, we will not take the nonsense. We also will not allow the nonsense. Isa tufume.

Hon. Opposition Members: Skip it!

Madam Speaker: You are not serious.

Hon. Government Members: Where are you going?

Hon. Opposition Members left the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Matero –

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, may I ask a question?

Madam Speaker: You may ask. What is your point of clarification?

Hon. Member for Matero, you are next. We forget about the hon. Member for Mkushi South because he did not have any question to ask. He wanted to debate.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, thank you. I will direct the question straight to the hon. Minister.

Interruptions

Mr Sampa: Let us go for it, gentlemen.

Priorities, what are the Government’s priorities? If you are a mother, when children cry, it means they want food, they have had no food, they have not eaten the whole day. Instead of giving them food, are you going to tell them about rules, what time to wake up, what time to sleep, what time to go out?

Laughter

Mr Sampa: The Government is like a mother to the Zambian people. They are hungry. They want to hear that the price of mealie meal has been lowered, but the Government wants to give them rules, the Constitution. Is it urgent?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Matero, what is your question on the point of clarification? Point of Clarification, please.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, I am not clear whether I am asking the hon. Minister a question or we are moving on. If it is about the question, I can ask.

Madam Speaker: We are still on points of clarification. I said that if people are not serious, we will to move to the next segment.

Mr Kafwaya: No, she said that she has cancelled the segment.

Madam Speaker: Then, I said that the next person to ask a question on a point of clarification on the Ministerial Statement rendered by the hon. Minister of Justice is the hon. Member for Matero. So, you have been given the Floor to ask your question on a point of clarification. What is your point of clarification?

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, this Government is broke. Where will it find the money to undertake the constitution review? The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) has pulled out. The Government cannot pay bills when they are due. Where will the Government get the money? Why can it not wait to deal with the Constitution after the 2026 General Election?

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Matero!

You have asked your question on a point of clarification. Let me give guidance, hon. Members. Hon. Member for Matero, you are senior Member of this House. You know what the Standing Orders say. Whatever you say must be factual and verifiable. You are saying that this Government is broke. Do you have any evidence to confirm that the Government is broke? Is that a fact or you are speculating? Do not say things which cannot be supported. If you have any proof that the Government is broke, lay it on the Table.

May the hon. Minister answer the question.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, we want to get something out of this process. Now, if you keep on interrupting with points of clarification and points of order – the hon. Member for Matero has just asked a question on a point of clarification. The hon. Minister is trying to answer, but the hon. Member for Bangweulu wants to raise a point of clarification. Why not give the hon. Minister an opportunity to answer, and then listen and see whether it is still necessary to raise your issue?

The hon. Minister of Justice may respond.

Mr Mweene: He is a problem.

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, thank you. First of all, this Government is not broke. This Government ensured that no Zambian died when we had a drought. That is on record. We have been praised for averting the impact of the drought. We all, including my brother from Matero, have attested to the fact that no one has died of hunger in our different constituencies.

Madam Speaker, I think, he is talking about prioritisation. Is this a priority, given some of the challenges we have, like climate change and other forces? The point is that a government is a multi-faceted institution. While the Ministry of Agriculture is working on food security, we, as the Ministry of Justice, are working on the Laws of Zambia. How many ministries do we have? Twenty-five. It would not be necessary to have all the other ministries, if all issues came to a halt because one issue, for example, in agriculture. He is calling this Government broke, but his Government, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, I do not even know if the hon. Member for Matero is still in that party, only gave us the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) twice, as Members of Parliament from 2016 to 2021. First of all, his Government was very selective when giving the CDF. Secondly, it gave constituencies K700,000 each. The last CDF was K1.2 million, when it saw that we were nearing elections. Now, this Government, under the able leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema, who is pro-poor, is walking the talk. The CDF went from K1.6 million to a whopping K20 million to the current K36.1 million.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, do you call that broke? No. Knowing your priorities, what has been lacking in this country is leadership. Now, we have proper leadership. We have a man who has a vision for this country, and we are seeing development. He has not ended there; he is saying that these provisions are for us. If Keembe, for example, was split into two constituencies, how much CDF would I get? It would be K72 million. So, why – I do not even know what word to use, which is parliamentary. Why would we argue against such a provision? I know that deep down his heart, my brother is happy …

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Yeah, he is.

Ms Kasune: … because he wants Matero to be considered for delimitation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister and her Government for bringing these issues to the fore. The Constitution is a document by the people. So, it is important to be transparent and look at what the people have suggested. I want to thank the hon. Minister for being transparent about this issue. However, when do we expect to see the non-contentious issues in the Government Gazette so that people can look at them?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: I do not know if some people were here or not.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice may respond for the sake of the people who did not hear clearly.

Mr Mukosa touched the microphone as he rose to leave the Assembly Chamber.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chinsali, as you leave, please, be gentle with the equipment. You will break it. I do not know what wrong it has done to you. You just threw it like this, why?

Mr Mukosa: Who?

Madam Speaker: Yourself, hon. Member for Chinsali.

Mr Mukosa: I just touched it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: No, you threw it. You did not even switch it off. Be careful with it. It has never wronged you in any way.

Laughter

Mr Kabuswe: Lomba ubwelelo.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Hon. Member for Chinsali, enjoy your tea or whatever you are going to drink.

The hon. Minister of Justice may proceed.

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I think, I will not go through the table. I will say to Hon. Chinkuli, my brother from Kanyama that the table has been laid. I think, because it is in the statement, he can go through it. Clearly, what we are trying to clarify is the notion that there have not been consultations. In my speech, I talked about different commissions that have been set up in the past and how they have actually somehow, touched on the same concerns we are bringing out. It is the reason we are saying that this is a non-contentious amendment process. So, we hope that using Article 79, hon. Colleagues will be able to vote when the Bill is brought to the House for second reading. They will be able to indicate whether they agree or not. Additionally, there is a period for gazzetting, where hon. Members can send their concerns. In terms of the entire timetable, I do not think time will allow. So, we will allow people to ask questions so that we can clear the misinformation out there.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the statement which is quite crucial for this nation. A study conducted by Prof. Ndulo reveals that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2016 (Bill 10) was very highly manipulative because it sought to establish Constitutional dictatorship in Zambia. The amendments to the same Bill were too broad. Now that the Government has given us a road map and has stipulated the Constitutional amendments that are not manipulative, but smart, it means that they are specific, measurable, attainable, realistic and timely. Hon. Minister, what is the main difference between the dead Bill 10 and the smart Constitutional amendment proposal that has been given to us today?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, the question from the hon. Member of Parliament is valid and it has been asked in different forms in this House.

Madam Speaker, we clearly want to indicate that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2016 (Bill 10) brought to light the provision of Article 58 which talks about the delimitation of constituencies by Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). However, the amendment indicates “not more than ten years.” For example, the PF Government, through a statement made by Hon. Lubinda (former hon. Minister of Justice) in this House, indicated that the delimitation process would happen after they had won the elections. From the little conversations I have had around that issue, I think their need to implement what they wanted was overtaken by them being thrown out of Government. So, that could be the only the difference.

Madam Speaker, I also want to inform the House that in the beginning in Siavonga, perhaps Hon. Jack Mwiimbu might have been there, the UPND participated in the conversations relating to Bill 10. The reason the UPND no longer participated in those conversations was because it did not agree with certain clauses that were proposed.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the statement as it has put to rest some of the misinformation out there.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister touched on Article 52 and specifically, Sub-article (VI), where she referenced a situation where a candidate dies, resigns or becomes disqualified in accordance with Articles 70, 100 or 153. Her emphasis was on the event that a candidate resigns. In that situation, the Article provides for the holding of elections within thirty days of the filing of fresh nominations, but it does not say anything about how soon the filling of fresh nominations should actually take place. It means that there is a big lacuna of what could happen between the postponements of elections and when the elections could be called for before we the filling of elections. Has her team considered in revisiting that particular Article so that the dangerous lacuna becomes non-controversial and therefore, taken care of?

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. Colleague for the question. If I heard him clearly, he is concerned about the timeframe of the resignation process. Am I correct?

Mr Katakwe indicated assent.

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, what is important to underscore is the reason we want to cure that. We want to ensure that once somebody resigns –

Madam Speaker, people have been doing it deliberately. Some have been paid to just disturb the process. Some of the concerns out there are based on leaders who do not mean well for the country. The former Presidents, including the current one has never invoked that clause. It would have been easy for people to keep sponsoring individuals to disturb the process so that they can continue to stay in office. So, I believe that by curing the word “resign” out of the Constitution, will cure even the concerns the hon. Member is raising.

Madam Speaker, I submit.

Mr Mabumba (Mwense): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me.

Madam Speaker, in her submission, the hon. Minister has indeed, indicated that there has been participation in the constitutional reforms process. However, as we are all aware, there are some stakeholders who have indicated that there is need for members of the public to participate in the Constitution process. How does she reconcile the statement that she given in terms of the people who have participated, with the stakeholders who are arguing that there has been no participation in this particular process?

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I am grateful to my colleague, Hon. Mabumba.

Madam Speaker, it is important for my fellow hon. Colleagues and the general public out there to underscore the fact that we should consider the amendments. Firstly, they are non-contentious. Secondly, the process of bringing a Bill to Parliament using Article 79 will cost less.

Madam Speaker, in terms of consultation, I want to state that Hon. Mabumba, being a Member for Mwense, his constituents will need to advise him as their representative on whether to agree with the provisions or not. That is what the people of this country need to know. When we speak in this House, we say we speak on behalf of the people of Mwense, for instance, or whichever constituency. So, by virtual of that hon. Member, you are speaking on behalf of the people. I therefore, encourage the public to interact with their hon. Members of Parliament. They need to bring out their concerns so that they are taken into consideration. Whether one voted for the hon. Member or not, that member is their representative and fortunately, the member has the power to veto or agree to the Bill that is proposed.

Secondly, I mentioned the thirty days of gazetting the Bill. If I can remember well, it was articulated in the road map that with all things being equal, the draft should be published on 21^st May, 2025. It will be given thirty days. I therefore, wish to urge my fellow colleagues and indeed, the public out there that the thirty days is not for show, but for us to write to Government Printers and to our ministry so that we can get the concerns.

Madam Speaker, last but not the least, because of the topical nature of what we are dealing with, I believe that the Committee will be as expanded as possible and given as much quality time. Other stakeholders will be invited without negating the different commissions, which I already highlighted, and have participated, like the Electoral Reform Technical Committee (ERTC), which is undertaking a review that is ongoing, in which all the political parties, including the Patriotic Front (PF), are members. We are saying that enough of the talking. Let us continue talking but also act together in the interest of the people of Zambia. The process cannot be bulldozed because the Constitution is clear and there are safeguards.

Mr Mabumba indicated assent.

Ms Kasune: I am glad the hon. Member is nodding. Those are the criticisms and responses we need so that we can build a better Zambia together.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, it is important that we address the issues. The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, No. 2 of 2016 may have some additional non-contentious issues. For example, a provision moved the campaign period from forty-five days to ninety days. When Parliament is dissolved, it means that we campaign for ninety days, which is too long. I want to find out at what point in the process, the ministry will receive additional submissions for non-contentious issues that may not be on the shopping list.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Nalolo. He is another friend in the cause for a better Zambia and equal distribution of resources.

Madam Speaker, those of us who have run campaigns twice have, indeed, felt the ninety days. The actual campaign starts about two months before the elections. That was a decision that was made then. However, as I have already alluded to, the Constitution is our document, which needs to be altered at any time. The hope is that one does a good job so that one does not keep going at it. That is the idea. Neither at any time, should one feel prohibited to amend the Constitution because it is ours. If the concerns are legitimate and widely noted, then, they should be added. Not only that, the centre of Parliament, as the House may know, and to tell the public, is the Committees. If there is a place where one can make real friends or where all hon. Members are colleagues in the true sense, it is the Committees. Hon. Members will agree with me. What people see in this House is more of politics and drama, which obscures the great job that hon. Members do regardless of their political parties and affiliations. When hon. Members attend Committee meetings, they are objective and clear, and put the wellbeing and concerns of the people of Zambia first.

Madam Speaker, according to the road map, after the Bill passes First Reading, it will be taken to a Committee. Hon. Members should write their concerns. I also invite the public to come on board. People can actually attend the meetings, as citizens of this nation. Maybe, we also need to advertise because many people do not even know that one can sit in the galleries on any day. That is why the reforms are critical. Zambia is considered as having one of the progressive Parliaments because we are on radio and television stations. Even that Committee session can be broadcast. When the report is presented to this House, the public will be able to participate. So, I encourage all my hon. Colleagues to bring the other issues on board. That is to clearly show this House that we are a listening Government and we want the process to have the buy-in of all citizens for the sake of a better future for the many generations to come.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I can see the hon. Member for Nkana is seated like this (holding her head). Maybe, we should give him an opportunity.

Hon. Member for Nkana, you may proceed.

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, altering the supreme law of the land cannot be compared to this House coming up with an Act of Parliament. The process requires broad consultations. In the hon. Minister’s submissions, she intimated that the Government would want hon. Members to consult their people in the communities. That would require resources and a deliberate arrangement for us to sit with the people. Amending the Constitution, whether it is one or two provisions, requires resources. The 2025 Budget –

Mr Amutike interjected.

Mr B. Mpundu: Can you behave yourself (pointed in Mr Amutike’s direction).

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us allow the hon. Member to ask his question.

Please, hon. Member for Nkana ask your question.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, the 2025 Budget did not provide a line to support the amendment of the Constitution. Where is the Government going to draw the resources to embark on the exercise?

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, many thanks to my hon. Colleague. We speak on many progressive issues away from the politics that we see sometimes.

Madam Speaker, the process that the hon. Member has referred to is actually going to be legislative. So, altering the Budget or looking for more funds does not exist. That is number one. It was in the wisdom of those who undertook amendments in 2016. I believe that we need to give credit where it is due. In 2016, Article 79 was not touched. I think, it was in the wisdom of the people then because they knew that a need could arise at a certain time from Parliamentarians, that is hon. Members, who do not come to this House in their capacity, but carry all the people of Kamfinsa, for example, as their representatives, whether they voted for one or not.

Madam Speaker, Clause 79 states –

Madam Speaker, I want to find it so that I do not misrepresent it (checked the documents she had).

Madam Speaker, the Clause states:

“(1) Subject to the provisions of this Article, Parliament may alter this Constitution or the Constitution of Zambia Act, 1991.

(2) Subject to Clause 3, a Bill for the alteration of this Constitution or the Constitution of Zambia Act, 1991, shall not be passed unless –”

These are the safeguards, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, they wanted to ensure that it is not just this House, even though we have the power, but also the public, speaking on the process with their concerns. Secondly,

Madam Speaker, if we did the math, currently, we are 156 hon. Members. So, we are talking about 111 votes or so. It is then our responsibility to ask how we are going to caucus and listen to our members. Hon. Members have offices. The people can visit the offices or call hon. Members. The idea is that even as hon. Members are in this House, what the hon. Member has asked me, for example, is not necessarily his question, but a concern raised by some of his constituents. It is through that provision that was left in the wisdom of those who sat in 2016. They left it deliberately for such a time as this. Hence, that is the process that will be used. It will consume less time and will be more effective. I hope we will amend the said clauses and others we may not have thought of. So, the hon. Member should take advantage of the Committee Stage and the process of submission. He is part of this nation and his concerns and submissions matter.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I wish our hon. Colleagues who walked out had remained inside the House because the Constitution is for all of us and, therefore, we need to find consensus. They need to tell us the issues they are concerned about from what the hon. Minister has presented. We can then sit down and amicably find consensus. It is very sad that they did not ask any questions. Therefore, I am at pains to see what their issue is. What is being proposed has nothing to do with the precedent that was set with the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019. We need to look at what is in the interest of the people of Zambia and come up with progressive laws. What happened in the past is long gone. We are here today. So, let us focus and move forward as a country. I have looked at some of the proposals and they are non-contentious. The proposals will help us because the law is dynamic and it should not be repugnant.

Madam Speaker, my issue is in relation to what my hon. Colleague, the hon. Member for Mwense, asked about concerning the people in our constituencies. Is there any proviso for us to find ways and means to consult our constituents and hear their views so that we can have wider consensus?

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa for a progressive question.

First of all, Madam Speaker, because of the nature of this topic, I hope that my hon. Colleagues who have walked out are listening from their cars or wherever they may be. The information is not only for the consumption of this House, but for the nation as well. Therefore, I am grateful that your office allowed me to come with this statement.

Madam Speaker, I want to set the stage before answering the hon. Member’s question. Many of us have heard and seen people celebrating on social media about what has happened in Namibia. The Namibian Cabinet has more female hon. Ministers than the male and, rightly so, we need to celebrate that achievement. That is why, in some of the provisions, we are proposing an increase in women’s representation across various sectors in this country. Fifty-one per cent of our population is female, and yet women have remained behind. We got our independence earlier than Namibia and we need to be progressive. The Namibian population is less than we are. I can cite many other examples.

Madam Speaker, when we talk about the need to consult people when we go out there, I want us to continue contrasting our population size with the population of other countries. That is why I said that I want to set the stage at the beginning. As I have already alluded to, Namibia only has 2.9 million people, compared to Zambia, which has about 20 million people. Namibia has 121 constituencies, and I stand to be corrected. Malawi has 21 million people and 193 constituencies. In the current conversations in Malawi, there is a proposal to increase the constituencies to 228. Again, I stand to be corrected. Zimbabwe has 16.1 million people and 211 constituencies. Zimbabwe’s population is almost 4 million people less than ours. However, we are still arguing about the need to delimitate our constituencies.

Madam Speaker, it is difficult to comprehend why people would oppose delimitation. Take, for instance, a constituency such as Katombola in Kazungula District in the Southern Province. Kazungula is the second largest district in the country, but it has only one constituency and gets the same Constituency Development Fund (CDF) as smaller constituencies. Kazungula needs twice the current allocation for the CDF, if the resource envelope would allow. If the district had one more constituency added, it would receive about K72 million, instead of K36.1. Should we all not say, “Hear, hear” to that point? It breaks my heart to learn that some people do not want to be part of the constitutional amendment process.

Madam Speaker, as I respond to hon. Members’ questions, let me take advantage of the statement I have presented today and to correct some impressions that have been created to people out there. I hope those who spoke against the constitutional amendment exercise will go back to the media and retract their statements. Removing the 50 plus 1 per cent constitutional provision and extending the President’s tenure of office from five years to seven years are not part of the proposals. I hope we are all clear about that. As the Government, we are saying that if there are more things that require amending in the Constitution, hon. Members should submit them. They should take advantage of the statement I have issued today to raise their concerns. The proposed amendments are in the public domain for us to have constructive conversations. We need to take advantage of the time the proposals will be published in the Government Gazette. The amendment of the Constitution is not only for hon. Members, but for all Zambians.

Madam Speaker, I hope to stay in my current portfolio long enough to see the Constitution translated into our major local languages. I think that is something that will be helpful to us. Since I took up this position, I have been forced to read so that I understand things better. So, if all of us took time to read, we would be amazed at how easily we would understand and interpret the book that contains the laws that govern us. Understanding the Constitution should not be a preserve of a few. It is the right of every Zambian. The Constitution deals with so many aspects of our lives. It emphasizes that all women and men should be treated equally. So, every citizen should have some basic knowledge of the Constitution. That will help cure some of the concerns and misinformation out there.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, the constitutional amendment process has been motivated by two major factors. One of them is the enhanced Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which is not achieving equality and equity. The roadmap shows that the delimitation exercise will be undertaken at the end of July or early August this year. Furthermore, we expect the 2026 Budget to be announced in September, 2025. The delimitation exercise will come with increased costs for human capital, space in the Assembly Chamber, accommodation, emoluments and many other issues. Is the Government already considering incorporating the expected costs in the 2026 Budget?

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I want to thank my hon. Colleague. In many ways, we share conversations that relate to this nation’s progress.

Madam Speaker, I think, we have all heard the saying, “Where there is political will, anything is possible”. What has been a problem in this country is the lack of leadership. We lack leaders who can say ‘I have heard everything, but because you have given me the mandate to lead, let us proceed and do this for the sake of the nation.’ Sometimes, when you are a leader – I am learning that leadership can be a lonely place. I remember President Chiluba saying, ‘Imfumu Taitukana abantu, abantu eba tukana imfumu.’ I was young, but I really took those words. It means that as a king, chief, chieftainess or queen, people can insult you, but you cannot go and stand on a mountain and insult them back, because then they will say, ‘what kind of a king or leader do we have?’ So, most times, leaders hold their anger because of the positions they hold. That wisdom from Chiluba, I took it so seriously, and it is coming in handy for me in my position. This goes for the President and other leaders.

Madam Speaker, when Mwanawasa was being inaugurated as President, his aunt spoke in lenje. She said, ‘ono Levy, bonse aba mbako,’ meaning, ‘all these people, whether they voted for you or they did not vote for you, they are all yours.’ I share those words from those leaders, and in my own little corner, I have come to attest that those words were full of wisdom. So, what am I saying, hon. Colleague? We have to have the will. Like Nelson Mandela said, “It always seems impossible until it is done.” That is why there are people who break records. It had never been done, but they did it. Look at the Commonwealth. Some of us spoke in the Parliament of the United Kingdom (UK) during the celebration of the 100 years of Women's Rights or Suffrage. In the UK, not all hon. Members of Parliament go to the House; they go as they are needed. I stand to be corrected. Hon. Chonya agrees because she is a leader in an organisation of women in politics. In Uganda, where I went with the hon. First Deputy Speaker, hon. Members do not go to Parliament unless they are needed. Even the issue of the quorum that we still have here, may be something we may want to interrogate. Every hon. Member wants to come to the House so that the people can see him. However, if you know that you do not have business in the House, why come to Parliament? Maybe, we need to think outside the box.

Madam Speaker, what about this whole Chamber? Can it be expanded? Are there artefacts we are worried about? We go to museums. Chicago is one of the best cities with the best museums. What they do in some places where there are artefacts is that they push the wall to preserve whatever they are trying to preserve, and the public is still able to see the original stone from the 18^th century, for example. So, I think, what we need to do is agree and not limit ourselves because of space. What about those public galleries? Maybe, some hon. Members, especially the Independent hon. Members can sit in that gallery (pointed at the Diplomatic Gallery).

Laughter

Ms Kasune: I am making a joke out of the situation.

Mr Katakwe: The PF.

Mr Wamunyima: Mpundu.

Ms Kasune: Hon. Member for Nalolo, pardon me. That is my friend (pointed at Hon. B. Mpundu).

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Ms Kasune: Then ambassadors or whoever you think is a dignitary sit in the first rows on both sides. If there is something we are learning from President Trump, it is that sometimes, it takes a president who dares to do the unthinkable for a government to make a difference. I think, this President, in the name of Hakainde Hichilema, is that one leader who wants this country to change for the betterment of our children. As a grandmother of two, I am excited for Zambia right now.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisopa: Question!

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Hon. Member for Nkana, hold on to your point of order. I want to go through this quickly because we do not have much time. Hon. Members on my right, forgive me, please, I want to concentrate on hon. Members on my left.

Eng. Daka (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that elaborate statement.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned a technical committee on the electoral reforms, and she stated that almost all stakeholders are involved or were involved in coming up with the aforesaid technical report. I am not surprised that the technical report contains some of the amendments that will be brought before the House, like delimitation. Delimitation requires constitutional amendments. Now, listening from the general public, it is like those very stakeholders are already busy criticising this House for the proposed constitutional amendments. Now, how genuine are the stakeholders? They participated in the process and they knew very well that we would eventually require constitutional amendments. What picture are they portraying to the general public? I would like the hon. Minister to just make a statement with regard to what I have asked.

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, this is why it was so important to bring this statement for the Zambian people, through your wisdom. Unfortunately, the world we are in, whether we like it or not, is fast. It is a world of misinformation, and everyone is the chief editor of news. There is no way you can verify who is saying what, and that is unfortunate. That is why your question is critical, hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza. I just mentioned a few of those who are members of the ERTC, whose works are still ongoing and we are waiting for, so that we can also inform part of the drafting process. We can also use it. In a way, we can say that it is part of the consultation process. I think, the dilemma or the challenge we have, as Zambians, is that we want to do the same things the same way but expect different results. I was very categorical when I talked about the commissions. One of the commissions, that is, the Chona Constitution Review Commission (CRC), was established before I was born. We cannot throw away the wisdom, the knowledge, the time and the money that were put into the commissions. The recommendations from those commissions have been taken on board.

Madam Speaker, what about the Mvunga, Mwanakatwe and Mung’omba CRCs, and so on and so forth? Those men and women made contributions and many of them spoke to the same issues. What has been lacking is the ability to do what is needed. That is what we have been lacking. That is why we are saying, as the Government, we are governing this country with all the wisdom that has been harvested from the different reports from the CRCs. Even the ERTC report and what will come out of the Select Committee will help us move forward, together. It is now time for Zambians and my hon. Colleagues to go out there.

Madam Speaker, Hon. Kambwili, who was my closest friend in this Parliament, likes saying, “insoni e buntu.” If we were saying that there is the 50 per cent plus 1 Clause, but you have heard that it is not there, accept that you were misled. If you heard that the President wants to extend his tenure to seven years, you have to hold me accountable. We can never put that in the Constitution. How would Zambians look at us? That is why I was given ample time to present this statement. This document is no longer my document, and neither is it for the Ministry of Justice. It is for the public. The public can now say, here, we judged them wrongly, and here are the things they have missed. Can we add them for the sake of the progress of this nation? What we cannot afford, my hon. Colleagues and Zambians out there, is to continue to be a country that is celebrated because of our democracy, yet we hide many things.

Madam Speaker, I have heard people say that there are clauses in the Constitution especially on nominations. The President could have nominated more women. The hon. Member is right even though it says, “men” and not “child”. In Article 259, there is a leeway for the appointing authority to consider gender or equal representation. I can actually tell the hon. Member that in this Parliament, when Speaker of the National Assembly was Hon. Matibini, SC., my loudest voice was on the need for more women in Parliament. The Speaker would look straight into my eyes and say, “Hon. Kasune, I hear what you are saying. I know you have been an advocate of women issues for years, but as long as Zambia does not have a legal framework to even actualise or bring to life some of the Articles such as the one on appointments, we will never get the numbers that we want.”

The countries we are celebrating today, that are at 46 per or cent, 39 per cent and almost 50 per cent of women representation, are those that have been unapologetic and have ensured that women are part of the fabric of governance.

Madam Speaker, may I make it clear to male hon. Members that statistics can show, and that our hope is that traditional constituencies remain as they are. This means that men should not be intimidated by women thinking that they will take over their constituencies.

Interruptions

Ms Kasune: Those can remain under the simple majority.

Interruptions

Ms Kasune: No, I want to clarify this issue because some of the concerns may be that the 156 constituencies will be divided into half, so that one half is for a woman and another half for a man. I hope Hon. Jack is listening. If it comes to fruition, our hope is that the simple majority, where we all fight, where the winner or the fittest takes it all, those can possibly remain. Maybe, then, we can create seats for women whether it is by district, province or whatever system we can agree upon as Zambians. By so doing, some countries have managed to increase the number of women in leadership.

Ms Chonya: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: It is simple if we are willing to do it. It can also be difficult if there is no political will. Where there is political will, anything can happen. I am grateful for people like Hon. Mpundu –

Hon. Member: Mpundu is not here!

Ms Kasune: No, no! I mean this one here (pointed at Mr Kang’ombe).

Madam Speaker: I would want to have more hon. Members ask questions. I know the hon. Minister –

Ms Kasune: I am getting heated up, Madam. Let me conclude. Hon. Kang’ombe is one of the ‘HeForShe’ advocates who supports women to come in numbers because he is not intimidated.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: Hon. Jack Mwiimbu and Her Honour the Vice-President reminded us that if women do not stand together, it means that what they are looking for will only come into fruition in 2031. Hon. Colleagues, especially my fellow women, do we want to miss the opportunity when we have the first female Speaker of the National Assembly or first female Minister of Justice? So, all women in the House should raise their voices louder so that we have more women in Parliament. Women have been known to be effective, honest, and committed. We need people like Hon. Kang’ombe, who is a supporter of the ‘HeForShe’ initiative to stand with us in this endeavour.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I can see hon. Member for Kamfinsa agreeing to what the hon. Minister is saying.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: I am sure you have a mother or a daughter somewhere.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the people of Chama South, I am grateful to this Government and the hon. Minister of Justice for the Ministerial Statement. The people of Chama South and I cannot wait to have Chama divided into one or two constituencies. Chama starts from Lundazi to almost Isoka, which is almost 300 km. It is one district with two constituencies. So, we cannot wait to have the amendment passed.

Madam Speaker, after this announcement, has the hon. Minister put in place measures to ensure that those of us who are in support of the amendments get on the ground and probably, give us air time for community radio stations so that we explain to people what the amendments mean for them, and just to counter disinformation that is already going around?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister of Justice, please, try to be brief so that we have two or three more questions.

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, it is also good to buy time, but I note the guidance.

Madam Speaker, like I have said, unfortunately, the world is full of misinformation. Really, we can take advantage of community radio stations. I do not think community radio stations will require us to pay. So, every media house should support this conversation. So, it is up to us hon. Members of Parliament to make ourselves available in our constituencies, including Lusaka because this is where a lot of talking and misinformation is happening. Definitely, we have to share information where we have windows especially with the hon. Minister of Information and media. I wish he was here, but all radio stations are looking for people to go and speak. The problem is, just like Martin Luther King said, “The blame on racism and slavery will not be only on the people who did the acts, but the people who kept quiet.” So, that is what we are trying to address, hon. Member. Many times, the loudest are the ones with misinformation. Those with opposing or supporting views for the amendments are not as loud as they should be. So, I encourage all hon. Members to go out there and counter some of the misinformation especially that we have listened to the statement.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to ask a question. I want to sincerely thank the hon. Minister for the Ministerial Statement. However, we can only hope that the roadmap the Government has drawn up is adhered to so that as we go back to constituencies, we will also have an opportunity to disseminate the information as hon. Members of Parliament. Just as my colleague from Chama South asked, it is important for hon. Minister to provide platforms for hon. Members of Parliament to start disseminating information, so that we can tell the people exactly what the Government's intention is. As she is aware, there is too much misinformation. Kindly, assure us that as we adjourn on Friday, the Government will provide platforms for us to disseminate the correct information to the masses.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, that was a comment. Let us listen to the hon. Member for Kabwe Central and then, we can have the hon. Member for Katombola.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to ask a follow-up question. We are grateful to the Government and the Cabinet for the important document they have given us. She has given us a roadmap and has brought out non-contentious issues.

Madam Speaker., in 2016, there were recommendations on some constituencies that needed to be delimitated. Is the Government going to use the same report or it is going to recommend for another because we need to participate as hon. Members of Parliament by giving reasons why some constituencies need to be delimitated?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister of Justice, quickly answer so that we allow another question.

Ms Kasune: Noted, Madam.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member said 2016, but it was 2019. The same report is there for public consumption. All of us can get it from the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). It will be up to the ECZ to either start from zero or to use that as a base of what they will recommend to the Executive. As we know very well, Hon. Lubinda did make a statement before the 2021 General Elections. Their basis of the ninety-four constituencies that were recommended was from the same report. That mandate sits with the ECZ. So, we will be waiting to hear from it. This is why we are still using the same process so that they can inform us on the way forward. I think the roadmap I gave did speak to that. So, they are yet to give us that recommendation and it is from there that we will know what they are recommending and then, the Executive will decide how they will go about it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Speaker, what advice would the hon. Minister give to the PF hon. Members who have run away from the House when we are discussing a very important national document? I am saying so because very few hon. Members from the PF have remained in the House. Maybe, they are less than ten. They ran away when we were discussing a grand norm of the country, the Constitution, which is going to bring more women and young people into this House. What is your advice to them, hon. Minister?

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, as I mentioned, there are safeguards in the Constitution. That means that after the Committee Stage, there will be a report that will be brought to the House, and people will have to vote. My hope and prayer are that the two-thirds majority of this House will vote in support of the amendment. That is number one. That is why some PF hon. Members like Hon. Binwell Mpundu, Hon. Kang’ombe and others, including independent hon. Members have stayed because they know that even though they are PF, they support the amendment because it is progressive. They are in support of the leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasune: So, we are here because we support the process. We appreciate them for staying and supporting the process too.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1641 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was just about to assure the hon. Minister that the Government assurance he has offered to the people of Chewe Ward will reach them. I will go there personally to deliver the message, in spite of the misbehaviour of the Zambia Police Service. Unlike the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts, I do not use Government facilities, but I will still go there and deliver the message.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, how long does the hon. Minister think it might take before we get resources for the bridge at Kaungo in Shibwalya Kapila, in fact, at Kapatu Mission?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte for being the good emissary who will go and tell the people at Chewe Bridge in his constituency that the Government, under the leadership of His Excellency President Hakainde Hichilema, is the first Government that has put that crossing point at Chewe, ever since Adam and Eve. I wish the hon. Member can go further to remind the people that there have been six Presidents before the one who is here. So, I am grateful for doing the Government work of giving recognition where it is due. I give accolades to Hon. Kafwaya for that.

Madam Speaker, regarding the issue of the bridge at the other place, again, I give the hon. Member my open invitation to his office, the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. President Hakainde Hichilema has continuously said that whether you are on the left or right side of the Speaker, you are part of the Government. The Government works according to the hierarchy of needs. The more you speak to us about what your constituencies need, the more we are likely to respond. My neighbour here, Hon. Mutati, served in Lunte Constituency for a considerable amount of time, that is, three terms or fifteen years. Hon. Kafwaya is running towards ten years of serving the constituency. Both were members of the Cabinet when they served the constituency. So, the hon. Member should just assure the people that the Government will do the needful. Ask the hon. Member of Parliament for Lundazi if she is here. She is on the left side of the divide. Ask the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusangazi. He is on the left side of the divide. However, we respond according to the amount of pressure that a representative such as himself exerts on the Government. The hon. Member knows, without any doubt in his mind, that there are competing needs for the people whose interest and aspirations we chose to serve. So, he should come on board. Please, let him take the message to the people the way he put it here, that the Government has made an assurance. I want him and I to work closely together to complete the project expeditiously.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

EXPANSION OF MPIKA SKILLS CENTRE

231. Mr Kapyanga asked the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts:

whether the Government has any plans to expand Mpika Skills Centre in Mpika Parliamentary Constituency, so as to cater for the increasing population;

if so, when the plans implemented; and

what the estimated cost of the project is.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, the Government has the desire to transform youth resource centres into hubs of technology and production, so as to ensure that the youth have access to employment opportunities and self-sustaining livelihoods through the skillset they will acquire, thereby, contribute to wealth creation in the country. Ultimately, this will contribute to the socio-economic development of the country from increased incomes at the household level.

Madam Speaker, the ministry is aware that Mpika Youth Resource Centre requires upgrading and expansion. Therefore, the resource centre is within the infrastructural development plans to undergo upgrading and expansion.

adam Speaker, start-ups are created by young men and women in universities or other institutions, who think that they can participate, for instance, in the Information and Communication Technology (ICT) space. Therefore, this Motion is about young people, those who are slightly above the age of a youth, and those who are even in their fifties, who feel that they now need to start running a business.

Mr Speaker, start-ups usually face various challenges. I have been doing a lot of consultation over the last couple of weeks and the feedback from various people who want to engage in business for the first time is that the available opportunities to access finance do not allow start-ups to actually grow in business. I will give a very practical example of people who want to venture in business in the ICT space. They may feel that there are opportunities in the ICT sector because most people are now using electronic gadgets, but there are too many requirements to acquire a licence to operate in the ICT space. Therefore, people are asking: How is it possible for a company to come from a country as far as China and be able to register and begin operating in Zambia quite easily? The answer is that foreign companies are accessing finance at a cheaper cost from where they are coming from. So, the first challenge that most local start-ups are facing is access to financing.

Madam Speaker, secondly, there has been a huge outcry from those who want to set up a business for the first time that there are too many licences that have to be paid for. If one is going to register a company at the Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA), a fee is already prescribed. After the company has been registered as a start-up, one is required to now comply with other regulations. One needs a business permit and a health permit to operate in any district. You are also required to pay for a fire certificate to operate any form of business. When we add the requirements for those who are starting business for the first time, we find that the complaint about the requirements being too many is genuine.

Madam Speaker, the Motion I am moving today is very clear. The Motion is not to discuss those who have operated businesses for many years because those may have found a way to survive. The Motion is basically saying, “Can we look at incentives for local start-ups”.

Madam Speaker, I will give another example. There are requirements for one to get an investment licence in Zambia. Foreigners need to commit US$250,000 towards an investment in Zambia. For Zambians to benefit from the incentives under the same scheme, they need to invest US$50,000. My question is: Are we concerned with those who can raise US$50,000 and claim benefits from the Ministry of Commence, Trade and Industry? Those are not the people we are concerned with. We are concerned with people who have ideas and want to start running businesses. We need to give them space to grow. The request from the people of Kitwe and all the young men and women going into business is that they should be given a grace period of two to three years to allow the business to grow. Further, they should be allowed to navigate around the challenges of starting a business for the first time because they want to grow.

Madam Speaker, I am a bearer of that simple message. I know that the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry may have interventions that cover a broad spectrum of people. However, I want to say to the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development that the conversation we have today is about people who want to start a business. They believe that they have business ideas and that there is potential for business in Zambia for them to make money. However, upon registering a company with PACRA, they are faced with many challenges. For instance, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) expects them to pay taxes and comply with so many regulations. The young people are wondering why a foreign company is exempted from paying certain obligations. I know that there are development agreements signed for foreign direct investments (FDIs). However, why not start packaging incentives for that special group because we want young people to grow in business? Why not agree as the Government or policymakers that that group of people who want to start business deserve incentives?

Madam Speaker, my standing here today is not about any other complicated issue, but to appeal to the two hon. Ministers responsible for commerce and small and medium enterprise (SME) development. I know that this Motion might be about a cross-cutting issue, and I will give the last example. When you go to any mining company in Zambia to register as a supplier of goods and services, you will be given a long list of requirements, even if your company is just a start-up. Can you penetrate the business environment with such conditions? It is practically impossible. So, the message from the people of Kamfinsa directed to the Government is very simple and straightforward. We are not discussing people who have learnt the ropes or those who understand different ways of accessing finance. We are discussing people who have innovative ideas and their conviction is that they should be allowed to grow their business.

Madam Speaker, the Motion for which I seek public support from both your left and right today is that while we are looking at the big businesses that have stabilised, can we also sit down and ask ourselves: What could be the incentives for those who want to create start-ups? I am not discussing start-ups owned by foreigners. I am discussing start-ups or businesses starting for the first time that are owned by Zambians. The request that I have been asked to forward to the Government is that we need to develop incentives that are targeted at local start-ups owned by Zambians. The hon. Ministers concerned will do justice to grant us that wish because it will help young people to be innovative and implement their ideas.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for this great opportunity to present a matter that concerns our people out there.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Mwila: Now, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the mover of the Motion for a brilliant idea aimed at supporting Zambians with entrepreneurial minds, who want to contribute to the growth of commerce and industry in this country. Indeed, this is a Motion worth supporting because start-ups, as the mover has defined them, are companies that are beginning business for the first time. In this case, we are looking at those businesses that are being started by Zambians.

Madam Speaker, start-ups belong to a category that we would call micro, small and medium enterprises (MSMEs). When they start, they are micro entities. If they are successful, they grow into SMEs and, ultimately, they become big corporations. However, the problem is at the beginning of a business, especially for those that are Zambian-owned.

Madam Speaker, it is very important to consider this Motion positively because start-ups form MSMEs and worldwide, most commerce and business is actually conducted by MSMEs. There was a report in 2021 with evidence that about 70 per cent of the gross domestic product (GDP) of this country is contributed by SMEs, which begun as start-ups. They contribute 88 per cent of employment and 97 per cent of the overall business in the country. By supporting start-ups, we would actually be broadening the economic base of this country. However, the problem is that without incentives, start-ups are expected to hit the road running, just like businesses that have been operating for a very long time. As a result, we see many people moving around with papers in envelopes year in and year out just to renew licences. If you ask them whether they have ever had a business, they would say no, but they have had opportunities. After registration and acquiring the necessary documentation, someone would receive an order for the first time. However, without an incentive for that person to fulfil that order, it remains a pipe dream for the business to grow. Therefore, incentives should be aimed at facilitating access to affordable finance. Many people end up selling their invoices because they fail to raise money to support or finance their orders.

A start-up company with an order is expected to go on the commercial market and access finance. In the worst-case scenario, start-ups are even asked to provide collateral. Where can a start-up get collateral? How do we expect start-ups to find enough cash to finance their businesses? That is why this Motion is urging the Government to create some incentives for local start-up companies. We need to give start-ups access to affordable finance and create incentives for businesses providing affordable finance. I know that the Government itself has financing avenues, such as the Zambia Credit Guarantee Scheme (ZCGS), which can partially finance Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs) and start-ups, the loan component of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund (CEEC). However, these schemes have failed to come to the aid of start-ups and SMEs because they are inadequately funded. There is competition and there is no co-ordination among the entities I have mentioned. You will find that one start-up is looking for an opportunity to access affordable finance from the CEEC and the CDF. So, because the fund managers for the two funds do not interact, we end up duplicating assistance or not assisting those who need the funds. So, as we talk about giving opportunities to start-ups to access affordable finance, we also need to co-ordinate existing opportunities. Access to affordable finance is a very big challenge. If there was an incentive, or if the Government collaborated with the private sector and increased funding to the available institutions, then, start-ups and SMEs would grow.

Madam Speaker, I have already talked about access to affordable finance, but we must also consider incentives that will benefit large corporations. Large corporations should include start-up companies in their value and supply chains. Large corporations should be given incentives to support start-ups. Then, they will have reasons to do so, and they should also provide statistics on this to the Government. So, large corporations must be included because start-ups need a helping hand to move on.

Madam Speaker, the other challenge start-ups face is access to markets. So, we need to give them access to foreign and local markets. It is one thing to start a business and it another thing to have a market. One might have an idea and financing, but where is the market? You will find that market opportunities are blocked by large corporations. Large corporations block all the supply networks and outlets. However, if there was a deliberate way to create opportunities for start-ups to penetrate supply networks, they would grow and sustain their operations.

Madam Speaker, there is also a need to promote technology and innovation. The mover of the Motion gave an example. For example, if someone wants to venture into Information and Communication Technology (ICT), that involves a lot of innovation and technological input. So, if there is no incentive in that regard, the undertaking would remain a pipedream. There are many brilliant minds out there, but they cannot penetrate because they are treated as big corporations that have been running and operating for a very long time. Hence, they face challenges.

Madam Speaker, as I wrap up, in support of the Motion, if we are to create employment and grow our manufacturing base, as a country, we need to look up to SMEs whose beginning is a start-up. How are we going to hold their hands and support them? We should not fall in the statistic that worldwide, many start-ups collapse within five years of commencing operations. Why? It is because of these barriers. However, with incentives, these challenges can be lowered, and we will be sure of growing our economy because of supporting those with entrepreneurial ideas to start businesses with a promise and an assurance that they will receive incentives and grow.

Madam Speaker, with those words, I beg to second and support the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Having listened to the mover and the seconder, I do not know who is opposing the Motion. I have no idea. Do we have anybody opposing?

Hon. Members indicated dissent.

Madam Speaker: So, we are pushing an open door. Then there is no need for us to continue debating. I call on the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry to respond.

Interruptions

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Chipoka Mulenga): Madam Speaker, I am sincerely grateful to you for giving me an opportunity to make a submission on the debate on the Private Member's Motion urging the Government to develop incentives for local start-up companies owned by Zambians.

Madam Speaker, the Government wishes to acknowledge that the Motion moved by the Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, is very progressive and resonates very well with the Government's aspirations, and it is embedded in various policy documents, such as the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP). In this regard, I categorically wish to state that the Government supports this Motion. We support the Motion because the Government has already started rolling out what is contained in the Motion. This is evidenced by the amendment of the Investment, Trade and Business Development Act of 2022 and 2024, to which Hon. Kang’ombe, Hon. Golden Mwila and every hon. Member of Parliament in this House were part of.

Madam Speaker, I must mention that as Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, the first mandate I was given by His Excellency the President was to review the Investment, Trade and Business Development Act, which is housed at the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) in my ministry. Yes, before 2021, no incentive was allocated to Zambian business owners and Zambian start-ups. All the incentives in this country were based on Foreign Direct Investment (FDI). I must thank all the hon. Members of Parliament in the Government, from the Ruling Party and Opposition hon. Members to Independent hon. Members because at the instruction of His Excellency the President, we amended the Investment Trade and Business Development Act in 2022. Now, it provides for investment and incentives for local investors, and those incentives are equal to the ones that were given to foreign investors. Beyond that, incentives are not provided for local start-ups.

Madam Speaker, the Government, has recognised the crucial role that our local start-ups play in driving economic progress, and has made progress in its concerted effort to create an enabling environment for local enterprises to thrive. This commitment is reflected in the establishment of various policies and institutions that support programmes aimed at fostering the growth, competitiveness and sustainability of start-ups. The Government, through agencies such as the ZDA, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and the National Technology Business Centre (NTBC) offers a range of incentives and support mechanisms to foster the growth of start-ups.

Madam Speaker, let me address the incentives and benefits to encourage the growth of enterprises. They include, but are not limited to the following:

Tax holiday and Reduced Tax Rates

Madam Speaker, tax holidays and reduced tax rates now include Zambian start-ups and Zambian-owned businesses. They are also included in the Investment Trade and Business Development Act which this House passed. Our start-ups might be eligible for a tax holiday for the first five years. I will repeat this for the benefit of the hon. Members in the House and outside, because since 2022, this has been new in the country. Depending on their location and sectors of operation, local startup companies may be eligible for a tax holiday for the first five years of operation.

Madam Speaker, it was in this House where we amended the Investment, Trade and Business Development Bill, 2024, to ensure that even local or rural areas benefited through incentives. So, that is work in progress. What remains the most is for the hon. Members of Parliament to go back and read the Investment, Trade, Business Development Bill, which was passed in this House in 2022 and revised in 2024. They also need to inform or educate the Zambia Association Chambers of Commerce and Industry on the incentives that lie in that document for locally based startups.

Madam Speaker, the Government has gone a step ahead to reduce Corporate Tax rates typically ranging from 35 per cent to 15 per cent, depending on their taxability income and the sector that we have. I should be very categorical for avoidance of being misquoted. It is not every sector that is going to get incentives of Tax Holidays. There will be priority sectors. I want to emphasise this point because it has been left open where it says, “Zambian Startups get incentives” and they have gone ahead to mention a number of them.

Madam Speaker, I urge my dear hon. Colleagues and hon. Members of Parliament that every Government has priorities in how it wants to grow its economy. This is not only Zambia, but the world over. What we are talking about today is value addition from our raw materials and processing them more. When we give value addition, we create jobs. When we create jobs, we create businesses. When we create businesses, we create taxes which are being used for free education and paying pensioners on time, among many others. So, it is in these priority sectors, which the hon. Member for Kamfinsa and the hon. Member for Mufulira are fully aware of the Investment, Trade, Business Development Bill, which we passed in this House. They just have to fully understand it so that they inform the public in their constituencies.

Madam Speaker, in addition to financial incentives that the hon. Members are calling for, we agree. Indeed, the Government should be very deliberate in supporting startups to access financing. I am glad that it is the hon. Members of Parliament from the Opposition who raised this issue. The same hon. Members of Parliament, excluding Hon. Kang’ombe and Hon. Mwila, hon. Member for Mufulira, have downplayed the influence of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). His Excellency, the President has provided a fund only for Zambian business startups, where loans are given at 5 per cent, Madam Speaker. They do not need to go to financial institutions which give loans at 12 per cent. It is in this House where we have hon. Members of Parliament who downplay the influence of the CDF, where we are even giving to a maximum of K200,000 per applicant of the CDF. Whether we are hon. Members of Parliament from the Opposition, Independent or the United Party for National Development (UPND), we need to unite and do the right thing to our people who are starting businesses in our respective constituencies.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Charles Mulenga: So, a fund has been provided. Out of the K36 million or K30 million that they have, there is a provision for their people. So, they should take this message to their people.

Madam Speaker, the Government has not limited itself to only helping startups from the CDF. Even under my ministry, the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) has developed a fund primarily for the Zambian business startups. Hon. Members of Parliament should take responsibility and be deliberate in engaging the Executive on how the Government can support their respective constituencies to finance the business entrepreneurs and the startups that are coming on board. We are giving out grants that do not accrue interest.

Madam Speaker, under the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, there is the Zambia Agri-Trade Project (ZATP), which is a financing project worth US$170 million. We have rolled it across the country. Forms are available and every hon. Member of Parliament in this House should apply through ZATP. It is accessed online through the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. We are giving grants to the tune of K2 million per cooperative in their areas. Hon. Members of Parliament should appreciate this initiative and take information to their people. Irrespective of the party or region they belong to, this Government is providing the fund. Beyond the grants we are giving, there is also a loan facility that we have provided for our people. All it takes is for the hon. Members of this House to take the message to their people. Ultimately, we agree to the proposal and the secondment by hon. Members of Parliament that it is progressive to be deliberate in growing and supporting the startups in this country.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. There was an indication from the hon. Member for Lunte for a point of order and I told him to wait, but he has walked out.

Mr Kafwaya entered the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: He is just coming in. At this rate, we cannot …

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Madam Speaker: Ah! Hon. Member for Lunte, is it your first term in Parliament sure?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am here.

Madam Speaker: It is too late now. May the hon. Member for Kamfinsa wind up the debate.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I thank you very much once again for the opportunity to present this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I was not going to move this Motion if there was no problem to address. The fact that this matter has been presented today and a commitment has been made by the hon. Minister, there is a requirement under Parliament that when a Motion is accepted by both sides, a report must be prepared within thirty days on its implementation. My request on behalf of the people who requested me to raise these issues is that we need to comply with that procedure because a commitment has been made that incentives will be implemented for our people. I have taken note of the issues that the hon. Minister hinted upon. Some may not qualify as benefits for Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs), for the lower bracket of businessmen and women, but we will rely on your report, which will be prepared within thirty days, on the implementation of the commitments that the hon. Minister made.

Madam Speaker, I am grateful that the hon. Minister has responded to some of the key issues that we highlighted. The expectation from our people out there is that we need to see results out of the various Government policies. I want to thank the seconder of the motion, Hon. Mwila for having taken time to elaborate some of the challenges that our startups are facing.

Madam Speaker, once again, I am grateful.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

BILL

SECOND READING

THE CYBER CRIMES BILL, 2024

(Debate resumed)

The Minister of Information and Media (Mr Mweetwa): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to ventilate on the Motion that is on the Floor of this House.

Madam Speaker, I know that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security will do justice in responding to some of the concerns that were raised. I thought I should join him in responding to some of the issues that were raised as concerns that in fact should not be presented as such on the Cyber Crimes Bill.

Madam Speaker, an assertion was made yesterday by the hon. Members of your left to the effect that not enough consultations have been conducted. I think, the hon. Minister responded to that, and also the fact that there is still an opportunity for further input to be received on this Bill. I wanted to add that in the last month or two months, as a result of the deferment of this Bill from this House, it has gripped the attention of many citizens across the nation, including the traditional leadership. Only a few weeks ago, in the company of the board of the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA), I visited the Litunga through the Barotse Royal Establishment (BRE). The BRE put it in black and white it was part of the news items on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) television channel, I believe – that it was calling for this Bill to be passed by this House to take care of people who are abusing others in cyberspace. A few weeks further back at the Nc’wala Traditional Ceremony in Chipata, we saw, and it is in the public domain, Paramount Chief Mpezeni publicly, in the presence of the Head of State, President Hakainde Hichilema, calling on this Government to pass this Bill to mitigate the abuse that is being occasioned in cyberspace, particularly the bullying of women and the insults that are being unleashed by young people on the elderly, which is something that is not traditionally accepted in this country.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that some of the people who have raised concerns about this Bill taking away the freedom of expression and freedom of speech, for example, are perpetrators of some of the vices that this Bill seeks to address. Some of them hold important offices in this land at levels like being hon. Members, and they are on record shooting videos or recording audios unleashing divisive hate and tribal sentiments using that space.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, it is very important that this Bill, therefore, is passed to ensure that the vices are addressed.

Mr Kampyongo: He is debating his fellow hon. Members.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I have given an example of people who hold important positions like being hon. Members. You know it is a foreign language. So, it is understood.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, as a Parliament, we need to recognise and accept that cyberspace has become a dangerous platform for those people who want to divide this country. They exploit cyberspace to divide this country, and they are flourishing. We must stop them here and now to keep the unity and peace of our country. Also, there are many incidents of scamming, which the hon. Minister already alluded to. People are scammed daily on cyberspace platforms.

Madam Speaker, let me quickly respond to the issues I thought were important for my concern. The hon. Member for Kamfinsa, and I think another hon. Member, wondered what measure of reasonableness will be used by the officers who will be apprehending people. I speak with a background of being a police officer. Under the Zambia Police Act, we already have provisions based on which a police officer or any citizen, on reasonable suspicion, can arrest someone who is about to, has, or is suspected to have committed an offence. So, why should the question of reasonableness appearing in the Cyber Crimes Bill be different from the provision of reasonableness that we are already accustomed to? It is not a new invention and, therefore, there is nothing to worry about. Further, reasonableness is not to be determined just by the arresting officer, when questioned, it is determined by the courts of law. The measure of reasonableness is determined by a reasonable man. Common sense, the man on the Clapham omnibus. That is what it is at law. So, if a police officer has exceeded his or her authority in arresting someone without reasonable cause, there is a remedy that the law provides, which is found in Article 28 of the Constitution of the Republic, wherein, it provides that if one feels that one’s rights are about to be violated or have been violated, one can seek recourse with the courts of law. Therefore, an assertion that the rights of people will now be in the hands of arresting officers is highly misplaced and, maybe, should be categorised as fallacious. The law already provides for remedies to deal with those issues. For clarity’s sake, Article 28, being part of the Bill of Rights, supersedes any other Article in the Constitution written or unwritten.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mweetwa: Therefore, whatever provisions the Cyber Crimes Act will bring in, if they will be at variance with the Bill of Rights, which is entrenched, it means that the Bill of Rights will take precedence and, therefore, the courts will outlaw whatever provision may be passed through the Cyber Crimes Bill. So, there should be no worry about that. The rights that some people were asserting that will be taken away are protected through the Bill of Rights. Amending the Bill of Rights has to be done through a Referendum.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, what is your point of order?

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I am shocked that today the hon. Minister has alleviated the Bill of Rights to be very important and can overlook other provisions. This is the same hon. Minister who, yesterday, stood against Article 17 of the Bill of Rights, which talks about privacy, and said that it does not even exist. Is he in order to alleviate the Bill of Rights to the position that he has lifted it to today?

I submit, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I do not know what breach has occurred or how the point of order has been raised or if it is just an argument. I think, we will give you time to discuss outside the House. In the meantime, we need to do our work.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Let us make progress.

The point of order is not upheld.

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you also wanted to raise a point of order but the hon. Minister of Information and Media responded.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker –

Madam Speaker: He explained.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the point of order I was trying to raise is pursuant to Standing Order 71. We have a report on the Floor in this House from your Committee. Most of us who debated yesterday referred to that report. Your Committee submitted that the time it was given to consider the Bill was short. It mentioned that it was given two days to scrutinise the Bill. Premised on that, it advised that the Bill be deferred. Is the hon. Minister responsible for television and radios …

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: … in order –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us refer to one another with some form of dignity. When you refer to the hon. Minister of Information and Media as a Minister of televisions and radios, surely, it is demeaning to say the least.

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you are a senior Member of this House. I am sure, you know the language that we are supposed to use and the respect that we should give to one another. Those issues that you have raised will be responded to by the substantive hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. We do not want to open up the debate because it was done yesterday. The hon. Minister of Information and Media was just responding to a few issues. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is going to wind up the debate. So, he is going to respond to that concern.

Hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, wind up debate.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind-up debate pertaining to the Cyber Crimes Bill, 2024.

Madam Speaker, I would like to appreciate the submissions made by various hon. Members of Parliament on this very important matter. I take note that most of the submissions were made pursuant to the report of your Committee. As you are aware, when the Bill was presented in December last year, I graciously agreed to have the Bill deferred with a view to consult further with stakeholders. As I mentioned, the consultations were made with stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, I assured hon. Members of this House that I was going to bring amendments to the Bill. True to my word, I have circulated amendments to the Bill to hon. Members of Parliament for them to scrutinise. Hon. Members are at liberty to also propose amendments. I have noted that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa has proposed some amendments to the sister Bill, which is the Cyber Security Bill, 2024. That is how it should be.

Madam Speaker, today, I would like to be very reconciliatory. I want to thank most of the hon. Members who submitted and earnestly request them to support this Bill. I especially urge the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte to graciously support the Bill on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you most sincerely.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 27^th March, 2025.

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE GEOLOGICAL AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT BILL, 2024

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Interpretation)

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2:

on page 5, after line 9 by the insertion of the following definition:

“artisanal mining” has the meaning assigned to the words in the Mineral Regulation Commission Act, 2024; and

on page 7, after line 4 by the insertion of the following definition:

“small-scale mining” has the meaning assigned to the words in the Mineral Regulation Commission Act, 2024;.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3 – (Appointment of Directors)

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3, on page 7, in lines 17 to 18 by the deletion of paragraph (c) and the substitution therefor of the following:

Director of Large-Scale Mining and Mineral Investment Promotion; and.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 6 – (Functions of Director of Geological Survey)

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6, on page 9, after line 28 by the insertion of the following new paragraphs:

promote mineral beneficiation and value addition;

establish and maintain an accredited mineral laboratory for analysing mineral samples, rocks, mineral concentrates, tailings or minerals; and

provide data on the geology and mineral resources in the Republic and information to the public on geological matters.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to make comments on Clause 6. I do not agree with the hon. Minister’s proposal to insert paragraph (i), which is about the promotion of beneficiation and value addition.

Madam Chairperson, the words being proposed for insertion are making the Bill rhetorical. There are no clauses supporting that proposal in the Bill. For example, the Bill does not talk about a 40 per cent equity share for the local people in mining activities. Therefore, how can we promote beneficiation without the Bill demanding mining companies and licence holders to be listed on the Lusaka Securities Exchange (LuSE) so that citizens can buy shares?

Madam Chairperson, as regards value addition, economic diplomacy demands that we should be attracting foreign direct investments (FDIs) for the prospect of opening up new mines and processing minerals locally and then exporting finished products. Therefore, we expected this Bill to demand for a certain percentage of minerals produced in Zambia to be reserved for value addition. In the absence of that, the Bill is just rhetorical and the Government is hoodwinking Zambians to think that this Bill will promote beneficiation and value addition. So, I do not agree with the hon. Minister. We expect the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) to do more in attracting investors. So, I do not agree with the misuse of those words. The hon. Minister and his Government are misusing words in this Bill.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, I think that as we come to debate, it is important that we carry out a lot of research. Firstly, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry is working around that figure. Secondly, the Critical Minerals Act now caters for that. In fact, this Government has announced that it is forming a special purpose vehicle (SPV), which I spoke about on this very Floor. The SPV will one, focus on value addition, and two, mineral trading. We are going to do that by having access to metals. These are things I have mentioned on the Floor of the House.

Madam Chairperson, I still insist that this stands amended, as it is.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7 – (Geological survey, mapping and exploration)

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 7, on page 11:

after line 6 by the insertion of the following new subclauses:

(9) A determination of the compensation claimed under subsection 8 shall be prescribed.; and

in lines 7 to 9 by the renumbering of subclause (8) as subclause (10).

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Chairperson, this is not complete. We wanted a process that was going to clearly spell out the framework, the timing and everything else for the landowners who are affected. Now, this Bill gives power to the hon. Minister. It says that the hon. Minister shall prescribe, giving him a blank cheque. We want administrative control here. We wanted the complete thing to be given here. We expected the Bill to clearly spell out the framework, not to give power to an individual. The hon. Minister must be controlled administratively.

An hon. Member interjected.

Mr Kalobo: Yes, I know, it is an office, but that is why there is administrative law. The hon. Minister is just an individual.

Madam Chairperson, the same applies to the local content. The Bill has given the hon. Minister power to spell out the threshold for local content. This is legalising corruption. I am not saying that the hon. Minister is corrupt. We might have an hon. Minister who is corrupt in office, and multinationals in mining may say to the hon. Minister, “We will open an account for you in Panama and put money in it.” Someone might fail to contain that pressure, and that is why we want thresholds and a clear roadmap to be spelt out in the Bill, including the timing and how the landowners who will be affected will be compensated. These must be clear. Why should an individual be given a blank cheque? It is daylight robbery. We are legalising corruption.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: Thank you.

Just a reminder to the hon. Member, you were given an opportunity to bring your proposed amendments. However, I will ask the hon. Minister to respond.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, in fact, I think, the procedure of Parliament is that these things should have been brought to our attention twenty-four hours before the Bill was presented, so that we could have a proper response to the debates being put forward.

Madam Chairperson, I think, this article has been misinterpreted by my hon. Colleague, the Member for Wusakile. If we carry out works on any land, and there is extensive damage because of exploration, the Bill is very clear that where substantial damage is caused by the exercise of a power conferred under this section, an owner or occupier of the land may claim compensation. So, that person is actually given leeway to claim compensation.

Madam Chairperson, when we debate a constitutional matter or anything of that nature, we must not narrow it to the people holding particular offices; we must look at institutions. This law is not meant for Hon. Paul Kabuswe, because I am not going to be Minister of Mines and Minerals Development forever. We should look at the institution, and that is why we have couched the law the way it is. As such, I still stand by what I said, which is that let it be as it is.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, first of all, I want to appreciate the hon. Minister for acknowledging the debate we had when the Bill came for Second Reading.

Madam Chairperson, the genesis of this matter is that landowners who have titles to their land must retain some rights. The compensation we are talking about, which was absent in the initial Bill, was to the effect that people can come to one’s land, explore minerals and leave without any benefits to the landowner. We also have traditional land, which is owned by our traditional leaders. The compensation that the hon. Minister is proposing here is for damage caused to any portion of land. The Bill has left compensation to be determined by the hon. Minister. I agree that the hon. Minister may have good intentions by saying that it can be prescribed. However, why not just put that in the law so that it can be clear? People can refer to the law that provides that anyone whose piece of land has been damaged through the exploration of minerals is entitled to compensation. Then, we can just determine how the compensation can be worked out. If we leave the matter to an office holder, a challenge comes in because it will depend on which side the person whose land has been damaged is. If he is a weakling, he might not get any benefits. So, it is important to put the issue in a section which can be referred to, rather than leaving it to the hon. Minister to prescribe. I think, that is the argument the hon. Member of Parliament for Wusakile was trying to bring out.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, I want to make it clear that when you look at the Minerals Regulation Commission Act, you will see that those issues have been dealt with very clearly. You cannot start doing things on a parcel of land which is on title, because you have a mining licence, without the consent of the title holder. That is protection number one. Regarding damage to a piece of land, when you read this Bill, you will see that the words “as prescribed” have been inserted, as the hon. Member said. So, really, owners of land are actually protected in these two Bills. That is why I said that we must read this Bill together with the Minerals Regulation Commission Act when it becomes an Act of Parliament. I remember that as I was watching the Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development presenting in this House, the issue that the Government has not taken care of chiefs came up on the Floor. In fact, the Minerals Regulation Commission Act adequately empowers chiefs to have a huge say in licensing.

Madam Chairperson, I still insist that we go by what I have said. It should stand amended as it is.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 9– (Functions of Director of Mineral Investment Promotion and Local Content)

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 9, on page 12;

in lines 1 to 4, by the deletion of the marginal note and the substitution therefor of the following:

Functions of Director of Large-Scale Mining and Mineral Investment Promotion; and

in lines 1 to 2, by the deletion of the words “Director of Mineral Investment Promotion and Local content” and the substitution therefor of the words "Director of Large-Scale Mining and Mineral Investment Promotion".

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 9, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 10 – (Preference for Zambian products, contractors and employment of citizens)

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Chairperson, I want to make a comment.

The Chairperson: On which one, hon. Member?

Mr Kalobo: On Clause 10.

The Chairperson: There is no amendment that has been moved.

Mr Kalobo: I want to comment in reference to the report that was rendered to this House.

The Chairperson: Yes, hon. Member, but what I am saying is that there is no amendment that has been moved on Clause 10. So, it remains as it is.

Mr Kalabo: Madam Speaker, yes, it is an old Clause, but I am rising to defend what I had submitted to your Committee. I tendered in a written submission. The report anonymously went through after being supported by the Executive. Now, the Executive has veered away from what it supported, hence, my comment.

Madam Chairperson, there is a component of a proposal to include a threshold for co-mining and non-co-mining activities as an administrative control measure, where the hon. Minister cannot go below. According to your report, the Executive agreed to that proposal. I know one would contend that the report is not binding, but the social contract between the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government and its people is binding. So, we want to know what is so difficult for them to include a threshold that will not allow them to go below. For example, …

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

In as much as we appreciate your submission, according to the procedure, we are looking at the clauses one by one. I do not think there is any issue where there is no amendment. The Clause remains as it is. As I mentioned to you hon. Member, you could have submitted the changes within twenty-four hours, if you wanted to. As it is now, there is nothing we can do because you did not give any notice. Therefore, we cannot change it. The hon. Minister has also not submitted any amendment over the same. We move to Clause 10 again.

Clauses 10 and 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 12 – (Establishment of Artisanal and Small-Scale Mining Fund)

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 12, on page 14:

in lines 17 to 20, by the deletion of subclause (5); and

in lines 21 to 24, by the renumbering of subclause (6) as subclause (5).

Mr Kalobo: Madam Chairperson, I agree with the deletion of Sub-clause 5 because it was at variance with the Public Debt Management Act of 2022. However, we want to bring it to the attention of the hon. Minister that we have read all the documents such as the Minerals Regulation Commission Bill and the Geological and Minerals Development Bill. I say so because the hon. Minister just said we should read. I want to tell him that we have read and we have been advising him, but he does not listen.

For example, we have told him that the meaning of local preference in the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission Act means that no indigenous Zambian will benefit from the incentives, but he does not listen. That is where we are drawing all these comments from. We have read and we made our submissions to the Committee. We are not fighting here, asking on behalf of the people. I have the Minerals Regulation Commission Act, the Geological and Minerals Development Bill, which is under discussion, and the report.

Madam Chairperson, the genesis of all this is the repeal of the Mines and Minerals Development Act. The hon. Minister promised that everything that was left out would be catered for in the Geological and Minerals Development Bill. Unfortunately, the hon. Minister and the Government have technically curtailed people from commenting on other things using the objects of the Geological and Minerals Development Bill. I expected the hon. Minister to strengthen the Mines and Minerals Development Act through fragmented laws he has brought but he is using them to weaken the process. He was told on the Floor to bring the two laws together to prevent local preference. What is happening at Mopani Copper Mines is that once contracts for Zambians end, Indians take over all the businesses, including transport. Now, the Zambians in senior management have also joined.

Mr Kabuswe: You are veering off!

Mr Kalobo: So, if the UPND is genuine and wants to sanction Mopani Copper Mines for what is happening there, which law is it going to use? After the Geological and Minerals Development Act becomes a law, it will not be reversed because the law does not operate retrospectively. So, there is no subsisting law in between when Mopani Copper Mines acts in a way that is not Zambian. We need it to be patriotic because the contractors and suppliers are suffering. The hon. Minister has been telling us through Parliament that contractors have been paid and that business is being given to contractors. Can the hon. Minister parade the contractors who were paid so that we see them? I am saying so because people crying.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, the hon. Minister cannot parade the people in this House.

Mr Kabuswe: He is veering off.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kalobo: Madam Chairperson, no, I am not veering off. It is him who went to the Mines and Mineral Regulation Commission.

Mr Kabuswe: On point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Munir Zulu: Takwaba!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Kalobo: This is his Bill.

Mr Kabuswe: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson. He is veering off.

The Chairperson: Order! Resume your seats, hon. Members.

If we start debating ourselves, it will lead to this. Mr Kalobo, you are just supposed to debate the Bill. Ask a question or debate the Bill. Do not debate what the hon. Minister has done or what he has not. Let us focus on the Bill.

Hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, respond to the hon. Member.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, I still maintain that the Clause be amended as it is.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 12, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr Kalobo: Why does the hon. Minister fail to answer questions?

The Chairperson: Mr Kalobo, you have issues that cannot be resolved in this House, as we are following the procedure, but I am sure you can visit the hon. Minister's office so that you iron out some of those things. We are following the procedure.

We make progress.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Clauses 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through the Committee with amendments:

The Geological and Minerals Development Bill, 2024.

Report stage on Thursday, 27^th March, 2025.

REPORT STAGE

The Plant Health Bill, 2024

Report adopted.

Third Reading on Thursday, 27^th March, 2025.

_______

ADJOURNMENT: ADDRESS CHALLENGES OF THE DELAYS IN THE PAYMENT OF LOCAL CONTRACTORS AND SUPPLIERS BY MINING COMPANIES

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Madam Speaker: We have an item for debate to be introduced by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa. It is not a Motion and it will not be seconded. At 1955 hours, the debate will end and the debate will lapse.

Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, you may proceed.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I am grateful, once again, for the opportunity to make a few comments on an issue that concerns local suppliers and contractors in the mining sector.

Madam Speaker, some of the reasons people look for business opportunities is for them to support their families and create jobs for those who cannot find employment. The practice has been that when one is given a business opportunity, within thirty days one needs to be paid for the goods supplied. Unfortunately, we have a challenge in the mining sector. Today I will try to speak from a general point of view without specifically mentioning any particular mining company. When people are given opportunities to supply goods, in most cases, they have to borrow money from financial institutions. Now, if one’s invoice indicates that one will be paid in thirty days, yet a mining company cannot pay that money, the interest on the money that was borrowed begins accruing. Now, because the interest accrues on the supplier’s side, by the time the supplier gets his or her money in three months or four months’ time, for example, the value of that money would have been affected. We have many cases of people who have lost property simply because a mining company was not able to –

Mr Michelo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Sorry, hon. Member for Kamfinsa. There is an indication for a point of order from the hon. Member for Bweengwa.

What is the point of order, hon. Member?

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to rise on a serious point of order.

Madam Speaker, we are debating a very important Motion that the hon. Member for Kamfinsa has brought to this House. If you look at your left side, 95 per cent of hon. Members from the Patriotic Front (PF) are not in the House.

Hon. UPND Members: They have run away.

Mr Michelo: They have run away. Imagine.

Madam Speaker, as I was counting hon. Members present in this House, I noted that we do not have a quorum. I do not know if you can proceed with the Business of the House when the PF hon. Members are out and we do not have a quorum.

Madam Speaker: Clerks-At-the-Table, can we confirm the quorum?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, it does not mean that we can now exchange pleasantries.

Madam Speaker conferred with the Clerks-At-the-Table.

Madam Speaker: Unfortunately, we are only fifty-one. We are supposed to be fifty-six. Maybe, ring the bells.

Mr Sampa: Let me go out and look for them.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: You will reduce the number of hon. Members who are in the House. You can use your cellular phone to call your other hon. Colleagues.

Business was suspended from 1828 hours to 1836 hours.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, it appears that we still have no quorum. We rung the bells for five minutes and then added another two minutes, but there is still no quorum. So, in accordance with Standing Order No. 238, we have no option but to adjourn.

Hon. UPND Members: The PF has run away!

Madam Speaker: Order!

_______

The House adjourned at 1836 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 27^th March, 2025.

____________

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