Friday, 15^th November, 2024

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have three announcements to make.

VISITORS FROM LUANSHYA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY OFFICE

Madam Speaker: I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of Mr John Chulu and Mr Charles Sikalonzo from Luanshya Parliamentary Constituency Office in Luanshya District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst. Our visitors were welcomed yesterday, but unfortunately, they were not present. They are welcomed once again.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM MEANWOOD SCHOOL IN VORNA VALLEY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from Meanwood School in Vorna Valley in Lusaka District.

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

OFFICIAL OPENING OF THE YOUTH PARLIAMENTARY ACADEMY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform you that the National Assembly in collaboration with the Parliaments in Partnership Inter Pares will host a Youth Parliamentary Academy (YPA) from Monday, 18^th November, 2024 to Thursday, 21^st November, 2024. In this regard, I wish to invite all hon. Members to the official opening of the YPA, which will take place on Monday, 18^th November, 2024, in the Amphitheatre, Parliament Buildings. 

However, attendance will be on voluntary basis.

Mr Chisopa: Question!

Madam Speaker: The pocket matters?

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED ON WEDNESDAY, 16^TH OCTOBER, 2024, BY DR C ANDELEKI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KATOMBOLA CONSTITUENCY, ON THE CONTINUED STAY IN THE HOUSE OF THE NINE EXPELLED PATRIOTIC FRONT MEMBERS

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, you will recall that on Wednesday, 16^th October, 2024, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No 34, and Hon. M. Chikote, MP, Minister of Energy, had just concluded responding to a supplementary question by Mr K. Kabaso, hon. Member of Parliament for Mwansabombwe Constituency, Dr C. Andeleki, hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola Parliamentary Constituency, raised a point of order.

In raising his point of order, Dr C. Andeleki, MP, explained that on 27^th June, 2024, the Constitutional Court dismissed the petition of Mr R. K. Chitotela, MP; Mr N. Chilangwa, MP; Mr Mpakata Musonda, MP; Mr C. C. Kang’ombe, MP; Mr R. C. Mutale, MP; Mr B. M. Mundubile, MP; Mr S. Kampyongo, MP; Mr M. Fube, MP; and Mr M. L. Kafwaya, MP, hon. Members of Parliament for Pambashe Constituency, Kawambwa Constituency, Lupososhi Constituency, Kamfinsa Constituency, Chitambo Constituency, Mporokoso Constituency, Shiwang’andu Constituency, Chilubi Constituency and Lunte Constituency, respectively, on account that it lacked jurisdiction on the matter. He added that the Constitutional Court stated that the petitioners did not raise any constitutional matter requiring interpretation, as the matter was one relating to the political party to which they belonged. As a result, the petition of the nine hon. Members, who were expelled from the Patriotic Front (PF) by their Secretary-General, Mr Morgan Ng’ona, failed.

Dr C. Andeleki, MP, further added that on Wednesday, 3^rd July, 2024, the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker delivered a ruling announcing that vacancies had occurred in the nine constituencies of the hon. Members, following a point of order raised by the hon. Minister of Information and Media against the nine PF hon. Members.

Dr C. Andeleki, MP, also asserted that on Tuesday, 15^th October, 2024, the Constitutional Court ruled on the matter between the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) and Belemu Sibanze. The Court held that once the election process is triggered by a vacancy, it must run its course until the election, with no extension provided for in the Constitution. He further contended that, in light of this judgment, the seats of the nine hon. Members had become vacant.

Dr C. Andeleki, MP, therefore, enquired whether the nine PF hon. Members were in order to remain in the House and participate in its business given the holding of the Constitutional Court and in light of their expulsion from the PF.

Hon. Members, in her immediate response, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker reserved her ruling in order to study the matter. I have since studied the matter and will now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, before I delve into the merits of this point of order, I wish to address the issue relating to its admissibility.

Hon. Members, Order No.139(3) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, requires a Member who wishes to raise a point of order to cite the Standing Order, law on privilege of Members, rule of procedure or practice that has been allegedly breached. In addition, Order No.139(4) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, provides that where a Member does not cite the Standing Order, law on privilege of Members, rule of procedure or practice breached, the Presiding Officer may insist on him or her doing so, and if he or she fails or does not adequately do so, the Presiding Officer may rule that the point of order is inadmissible.

Hon. Members, a review of the verbatim record of the proceedings of Wednesday, 16^th October, 2024, reveals that Dr C. Andeleki, MP, did not cite the Standing Order, law on privilege of Members, rule of procedure or practice on which his point of order was based. Therefore, Order No.139(4) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, would ordinarily require me to rule the point of order inadmissible. However, given the significance of the issues raised, I will proceed to render my ruling.

Hon. Members, Dr C. Andeleki, MP’s point of order raises issues of whether hon. Members of Parliament who have lost their seats can continue to remain in the House and participate in its business.

Hon. Members, Article 72(8) of the Constitution of Zambia, Chapter 1 of the Laws of Zambia, obliges me to inform the ECZ of any vacancy in the National Assembly within seven days of its occurrence. In accordance with this mandate, I promptly notified the ECZ following the ruling delivered by the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker on 3^rd July, 2024, which announced the vacancies in the nine constituencies.

Hon. Members, in light of the announcement made on 3^rd July, 2024, by the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker regarding the vacancies that had occurred in the nine constituencies, the nine affected hon. Members commenced judicial review proceedings in the High Court challenging that decision. On Wednesday, 23^rd October, 2024, the High Court declared that the decision by the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker was ultra vires and consequently quashed it.

Further, hon. Members, I wish to add that the nine hon. Members of Parliament have challenged their expulsion by Mr M. B. Sampa, hon. Member of Parliament for Matero Constituency in the High Court under Cause No.2024/HP/1056. Therefore, I cannot delve into the merits of the point of order as the matter is subjudice.

I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: I am sure the blood pressure (BP) has settled.

Laughter

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URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

MR MENYANI ZULU, HON. MEMBER FOR NYIMBA, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO ON THE UNCOMPLETED WORKS AT THE NYIMBA DISTRICT HOSPITAL

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter Without Notice was supposed to be directed at the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, but since he is not in the House, I will, instead, direct it at Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, for the past two years or so, an area of about 12,000 m² has never had a fully-fledged hospital. Regarding  Nyimba District Hospital, two years ago, we were promised on the Floor of this House that the hospital would be running by June 2023. To date, there has been no contractor and nothing has been done, yet the money was available. Where has the money meant for the completion of our district hospital gone? The money was available and the contractor was assigned to complete the hospital.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nyimba, clearly, that matter does not qualify to be admitted as an Urgent Matter Without Notice. I advise that you file in a question.

DR MWANZA, HON. MEMBER FOR KAUMBWE, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON THE SECURITY SITUATION IN LUSINDE WARD, IN KAUMBWE CONSTITUENCY.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter Without Notice is directed at the hon. Minister of Defence, but since he is not in the House, I will direct it at the Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam Speaker: You may proceed, hon. Member.

Dr Mwanza: Madam Speaker, in Lusinde Ward, Mtukudzi Village of Kaumbwe Constituency, three of our citizens who were farming in Mozambique got into a fight with the Mozambicans and one Mozambican was hacked to death. At the moment, the three Zambians are held in Mozambique and our people, in retaliation, have held one Mozambican who was trading in Zambia. So, there is chaos.

The Government of Mozambique has sent more than 200 soldiers to Luka Village, which is at the border with Zambia. Last night, the people of Mtukudzi Village, in Lusinde Ward did not sleep in their homes for fear of their lives.

Madam Speaker, this problem has been escalated because of the informal border that exists between Kaumbwe and Mozambique. Most of our people farm in Mozambique, whereas Mozambicans seek medical services and essential commodities in Zambia. So, there is some form of trade between the two countries.

Madam Speaker, this matter has been presented to the District-Joint Commission and to our traditional leaders so that they can have a dialogue with the Mozambican side to live in harmony. However, at this time of the year, which is the rainy season, and there is a need for farming, there is definitely a threat to peace between the two nations.

Madam Speaker, what assurance is the hon. Minister of Defence in collaboration with all other defence wings such as the police, giving to the people of Zambia in Kaumbwe that their lives are secure? Further, what assurance do the people of Kaumbwe have that the presence of more than 200 soldiers at the border town will not escalate into war?  Rumour has it that the Mozambicans want to come to Zambia to avenge the death of their fellow citizen that occurred when the three Zambians and a Mozambican fought in their farm fields.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kaumbwa, I suggest you file in an urgent question since the matter borders on national security. Then, the hon. Minister of Defence or Her Honour the Vice-President will come to the House and respond to the question once you have submitted it.

MR SAMAKAYI, HON. MEMBER FOR MWINILUNGA, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON THE DELAYED DISTRIBUTION OF SEED FOR THE 2024/2025 FARMING SEASON IN MWINILUNGA

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Speaker, shukran.

Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter Without Notice –

Hon. Opposition Member: Ati shani?

Mr Samakayi: Oh! Shukran means ‘thank you’, in Arabic.

Mr B. Mpundu: Nomba mwaleta Arabic muno!

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter Without Notice is directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture, but in his absence, I will direct it at the Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam Speaker, in Mwinilunga, it is already raining quite heavily, and the Government has done very well to provide fertiliser, but there is no seed. The people are ready to plant, but there is no seed. So, my question is: When is the Government taking seed to the people of Mwinilunga?

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Mwinilunga.

It is the planting season and everybody will be looking for seed and fertiliser. Of course, there was a drought so even the seed was scorched. So, I suggest that you file in an urgent question which –

The Vice-President indicated to respond.

Madam Speaker: Her Honour the Vice-President wants to respond, but usually, we are supposed to –

The Vice-President interjected.

Madam Speaker: We need to make sure that Her Honour the Vice-President is ready to respond to that matter. Maybe, a Ministerial Statement can be rendered on Tuesday or Wednesday next week.

The Vice-President: Tuesday.

Madam Speaker: It will be rendered on Tuesday next week since the matter is urgent. Our current Standing Orders do not allow the matter to be responded to there and then. We do not want to take Her Honour the Vice-President by surprise. So, Her Honour the Vice-President or the hon. the Minister of Agriculture will render a Ministerial Statement on Tuesday next week.

Thank you very much.

Hon. Members indicated in advance to ask questions during the Vice-President’s Question Time.

Madam Speaker: I have not come to the next item yet. Can the Information and Communication Technology (ICT) desk help us to clear the list.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Until it is cleared, I will not say anything.

Interruptions

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THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Ackleo Banda indicated first.

Hon. Members: Vubwi!

Mr Ackleo Banda (Vubwi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving a chance to the good people of Vubwi to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, since 2022, the Government has been making pronouncements to complete most of the projects, that are at 80 per cent. Some of these projects include the hospital in Vubwi and many other projects across the country. However, since then, those projects have not been completed. I want to know the Government's position on why the completion of some projects has been delayed.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Vubwi for that question and concern about many infrastructures that had not been completed before we came into office. He says that they are still not completed.

Madam Speaker, I think that it is important to take note of  the fact that, maybe, not all, but many of them have been completed and the programme continues for us to complete. Before we start new projects, we want to see that we complete the ones that had been started by our colleagues. I know that there was a time when there was some kind of mockery that we, the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government were only commissioning and completing the infrastructures that we found. That is the way it is. We still believe that we have to complete those projects that were started by our colleagues because it is still Government. If the infrastructure in your area is not done, I am sure it will be done. I do not think that we gave a timeframe within which to complete a project. However, we will continue with that programme.

I thank you. Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, the Kwacha keeps on depreciating and the foreign exchange rate keeps on rising, meaning it is unstable. What measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that we stabilise the exchange rate?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Chinsali for that question. Whatever is on his mind, I think that his question would properly be answered by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Here, I am just talking about my capabilities of explaining the issues. However, for a while, we have been quite stable. Yes, there is a need to stabilise the exchange rate. I know there are many ways in which you can stabilise it. The most important thing, without even going into academics and how things are done in terms of monetary issues that people are putting in place and from the political point, is that we need to grow the economy and be competitive. We need to be competitive on the international market so that we earn foreign exchange (Forex), which will then make our Kwacha stronger.

However, Madam Speaker, as to the methods that are used to stabilise the exchange rate, I think, I would not want to touch there. If the hon. Member wants a more comprehensive answer, I will allow the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to come with a full statement. I think that will be helpful. I do not think I will be helpful to you if I respond to that question.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr P. Phiri (Mkaika): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, opposition is key in a growing democracy like Zambia. You will remember that when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) was in Government, the Patriotic Front (PF) party was in the Opposition. The PF party did very well as it used it was a good opposition to the MMD Government. Similarly, when the PF was in power, the United Party for National Development (UPND) was a good opposition. We saw how the PF Government performed well in terms of infrastructure development.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr P. Phiri: However, to the contrary, Madam Speaker, we have seen and as evidenced by one of the hon. Ministers, that the PF has gone for good.

Madam Speaker, this is really sad because I expect the UPND Government to protect these opposition political parties because it is from the opposition that it will be able to deliver.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 Please, ask your question.

Mr P. Phiri: My question to Her Honour the Vice-Present is: Does the Government want to make our State a One-Party State?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Mkaika for that question, which he premises on the past. If I followed him well, he talked of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) in power and the Patriotic Front (PF) in opposition. If I heard him right, he said that the PF party was a good opposition. He also said that when it formed Government, the United Party for National Development (UPND) provided good checks and balances as the opposition. Now that the UPND is in power, is the PF being a good opposition? I am just following what he said. I hope I am not misquoting him.

Madam Speaker, I think that the last part of his question, therefore, is a misfit in this scenario as to whether the UPND Government wants to have a One-Party State. Not at all. We are a democratic party and we want democracy. As he stated, indeed, opposition becomes very important in a democracy. However, it is never the Ruling Party that provides for the Opposition. From what he said, the PF party for example, which is back in the Opposition, was in the Opposition and provided good check and balances. So, why is it failing to be a good opposition now? Is it because there is a hangover from having been in Government?

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Yes!  I am just answering.

Hon. Member for Mkushi South, is it because there is a hangover from having been in Government? It may be difficult. Remember, when the PF party was in Government, it was not only the UPND that was in the opposition, but also the MMD. Did they offer good checks and balances? How many MMD hon. Members are here, in the House?

Mr E. M. Musonda: You are one of them.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I am not MMD, but UPND.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Let us talk, this is a very important House to bring out issues. There are people on the left side of the House who were in the MMD, but they are not MMD members. I can point at my fellow hon. Members who were in the MMD. So, let us not talk about who moved from where. That is why we should remain Zambians because we still change parties. At one time, we were all United National Independence Party (UNIP).

Mr Chisopa: Not me.

The Vice-President: You were not born then, Sir.

Laughter

The Vice-President: That time, it was compelling because we had no option. So, you were UNIP, whether confessed or not. However, what I am saying is that providing good opposition is up to the Opposition. If you remain hanging, thinking you will still be in power and that you are still ruling, then you will lose it. I asked where the MMD is.

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: It is no longer there. It has disappeared into PF or UPND like me. So, it is up to the Opposition to want to remain relevant. Otherwise, relevance out there is not good enough. So, are you providing good opposition? The hon. Member used a very good phrase; ‘good opposition’.  We are in Government and we will continue to be. We want to grow and grow, unless you give us space. It is not for us to decide, but for Zambians if they want a One-Party State. However, we do not want to go that way. That is why I am saying you must provide good opposition.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, thank you. I would like to say good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, corruption remains a cancer that erodes the very fabric of our nation. The Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) of Zambia has done a very bad job in concluding cases of current corruption. I want to give you an example. On 9^th August, 2022, former Ministry of Health Permanent Secretary (PS), Dr Magwende appeared before the ACC to be questioned about an irregular contract of US$100 million, which the Ministry of Health irregularly awarded to TFM Holding (Pty) Ltd to construct the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) prefabricated isolation hospitals. Today is 15^th November, 2024, and there has not been closure on that case.

Ms Mulenga: Kano nga ni Bowman!

Mr Wamunyima: My question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: What is the Government doing to give credibility to this institution considering that it has demonstrated that it can investigate a case for two years?

Mr B. Mpundu: One-man committee!

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member that corruption is a cancer that erodes the very fabric of any society. It is a cancer and, therefore, nobody wants cancer in any form. We should all stand and fight corruption. So, I agree with the hon. Member.

Madam Speaker, maybe, I did not really get what the hon. Member said. He spoke of a case of a former Permanent Secretary (PS). Did he say that he was arrested or fired?

Hon. Opposition Members: Both!

The Vice-President: He was fired?

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Was he arrested?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: No.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I have to know what I am responding to.

Madam Speaker: I think, the hon. Member said that he was fired and appeared before the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC).

The Vice-President: Great!

Madam Speaker: Yes.

The Vice-President: That is true. So, he was fired and then appeared before the ACC for investigation. I have personally spoken to the ACC on such cases and I have issued statements here, on the Floor of the House, that not all cases that are investigated end up in court. That is why I was asking if he was arrested. That is a fact. If there is an allegation against me, the ACC officers will definitely investigate and they will call me. They may find that – Landa, my son (pointing at Mr B. Mpundu).

Laughter

The Vice-President: They will find that ndi wakaele. He likes making such comments when I am on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, if the ACC, in its investigation, finds that what people are saying is not true, will it go to court? It may not see the court. So, this is the way I understand it. The ACC will investigate and when it finds no case, it dies there. However, if there is a case, with evidence, because that is the purpose of an investigation, then it will proceed to the courts of law.

Madam Speaker, I cannot answer directly on a particular case that was given as an example because I do not know the details of that case. This is a general process. If anybody is alleged to be involved in a corrupt activity, they will be investigated. If no case or evidence is found, then it dies there. So, maybe, this one is dead. However, he said investigations have been going on for two years, I do not know whether he is aware that investigations are going on. I would need to be informed by the ACC. As I am here, my imagination is that probably, it found no evidence or maybe administratively, there was something wrong and the employer did not think that they needed to keep him. There are cases whereby someone does something wrong, but may not really be a matter of criminality and they still lose their job.

Madam Speaker, I think that is what I would say.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Her Honour the Vice-President used the term, “wakaele”. What does it mean?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, when that man (pointing at Mr B. Mpundu) shouts ndi wakaele, it means I am innocent.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: If they find me innocent, they will not take me to court.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu: Mayo, muli bakaele!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nkana, please, stop shouting and debating while you are seated. It is unbecoming of an hon. Member.

Mr Chisopa (Mkushi South): Madam Speaker, I would like to say good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President. I know that she is a reverend or is it bishop? Are you a bishop or reverend?

Laughter

Mr Mwene: She is the Vice-President, iwe!

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has announced a by-election for Kawambwa, ignoring a stay that was issued in Chinsali by a High Court Judge. The Government sent the police to go and surround the Pope Square when we had a memorial service for the late President of the Patriotic Front (PF) Party, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata. The police were sent to go and surround a church in Ndola when there was a rumour that Mr Edgar Lungu was going to worship at the Catholic Church there.

Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President, if the Government is promoting lawlessness or democracy.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for that question and good morning to him.

Madam Speaker, the problem that I have with the hon. Member is that he has mixed-up issues. It is very easy for me to just answer the last part of his question and say, no, we are a law-abiding Government that follows the rule of law. That is a fact, except he started by referring to the by-election, which he alleges to be unlawful. Is he implying that it is unlawful that there is a by-election against a stay?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: He is implying that the by-election is unlawful. I think, that is the direction he is trying to take. The answer is no. We are law-abiding and we have said that we will ensure that the rule of law prevails, even in this matter.

Madam Speaker, I will say something, not to put Parliament on the spot, but it is the reality that the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), which is an autonomous body, has not been given a stay. To start with, there is no stay for the commission to stop the elections.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Eh!

Mr Simumba: Tatumufwile apo!

The Vice-President: Sorry, Madam Speaker, I will try to explain it the way I understand. There is no stay against the ECZ, which has its process.

Ms Mulenga: Ah!

The Vice-President: Yes. By law, when there is a vacancy, ECZ is informed. This morning the Hon. Madam Speaker told us that she has a duty to inform ECZ. Therefore, the ECZ will do nothing until it is informed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hmm!

The Vice-President: When the commission is informed –

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Let us listen, counsels there, I see lawyers, even student lawyers pulling their faces. There is nothing notifying the ECZ. What is there is that those who found the vacancy have notified the institution of the vacancy here. So, why do want to say that there is a stay?

Mr Mundubile: What about the ninety days?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, even with that, there is a recent Constitutional Court decision in Kabwe over a councillor. Nothing can stop the ECZ from going ahead with its processes. Nobody has obtained a stay against the ECZ. So, hon. Member for Mkushi South, the ECZ has on its records a vacancy and it is going right ahead. That is the situation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, I am so grateful this morning, and good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, there is a perception being created that whenever Eagles Mealie Meal, which is produced by the Zambia National Service (ZNS), is being sold, many people are queueing up everywhere. It really hurts me a lot to see people fight for mealie meal. What is it that the Government is doing to try and minimise the queues? For me, it appears like the Government has just chosen certain shops where this commodity can be found.  What is it that we can do to avoid creating a very bad perception to outsiders who are seeing the queues?

The Vice-President: I thank you, Madam Speaker, and good morning to the hon. Member for Chitambo. I do not know which perception he wanted cured there. He is saying that there is always fighting and there are selective shops where the Zambia National Service (ZNS) Eagles Mealie Meal is sold. I suppose that is what he referred to as the perception.

Mr Mutale rose.

 Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chitambo, just resume your seat so that Her Honour the Vice-President can answer your question.

The Vice-President:  I will answer the way I understood it.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is talking about creating a perception. Eagles Mealie Meal is produced by the ZNS and there are other millers that are also providing mealie meal. Maybe, people do not know which shops have the mealie meal, but that is the truth. People fight for the ZNS mealie meal because it is cheaper. However, it is important that people know that there are other shops that sell mealie meal produced by other millers. Yes, there are selective shops where this particular mealie meal is sold because the ZNS cannot provide the mealie meal in every shop. That is what is happening.

Madam Speaker, hoping that the hon. Member is speaking for the people of Chitambo, why should the people of Chitambo fight for Eagles Mealie Meal when in fact, our advice is that we must have community maize sales under the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). That is to encourage them to get maize which is cheaper, mill it at an affordable cost and in the manner that they want it. It will end up to be even healthier. Together, let us encourage people. They do not have to wait for Eagles Mealie Meal because there is maize.  People can buy maize and mill it. If one mills a 50 kg bag of maize at a hammer mill, one will produce a 48 kg bag of mealie meal, which is better than waiting for the Eagles Mealie Meal. So, the ZNS milling is not the only source, people can find another cheaper source, which is maize and is available countrywide.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Her Honour the Vice-President of the hard-working Government; the New Dawn United Party for National Development (UPND) for the good policies that have brought unprecedented economic development in Zambia regardless of the political party that a Parliamentarian belongs to. The New Dawn Government is doing wonders.

Madam Speaker, the Tateyoyo/Katunda Road is already being worked on and works are progressing very well. That stretch was not done by the previous regime.  In simple terms, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government failed to work on that stretch despite giving many promises to work on it

 Madam Speaker, after the Tateyoyo/Katunda Road Project, the Government promised to work on the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa Road, which everyone in Mangango, Kaoma, Lukulu, Mitete and Watopa is looking forward to it being worked on and has hope that it will bring about economic development because a good road network is the first infrastructure that can bring investors in an area. I would like to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President when our good and hard-working Government is going to start the construction of the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa Road.

 The Vice-President:  I thank you, Madam Speaker.  I also want to thank the hon. Member for Mangango for that question, which he premises on the fact that this Government has worked very hard and that it has good policies that are helping and to bring development to Zambia. However, the hon. Member’s concern is on when the Katunda/Tateyoyo/Lukulu/Watopa Road will be constructed.  Maybe, the question should be, when will it be completed? I could be wrong, but I thought there was a groundbreaking ceremony for the start of the construction works on this road. Was it from Tateyoyo? Maybe, it is the completion, I may not have enough information, but work on this road has started, going all the way to Watopa, hopefully. So, this is what is going on. Indeed, money has to be looked for, but this project has started. So, the hon. Member can rest assured that this Government will continue to provide the services that it promised..

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity you have given me to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question, and good morning to her.

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the New Dawn Government for the many mitigation programmes and projects that it has put in place to mitigate power shortages in the country.  Among others, of course, we saw the commissioning of the Maamba Collieries 300 MW Power PlanT. At the moment, preparations are going on in Kabwe, under the Mulungushi Textiles to construct a 100 MW solar plant. We also saw the construction of the 100 MW Chisamba Solar Power Plant, which is about to be commissioned.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, we saw the hon. Minister of Energy working on the mini-grid in the Eastern Province. There is also a promise from the European Union (EU) that it will construct a 25 MW mini-grid in the Western Province and many other projects that are coming up. Despite all this, we have heard sentiments that the Government has not allocated funds in 2025 Budget to mitigate the power shortages.

Madam Speaker, I would like Her Honour the Vice-President to help us tell the nation what measures the Government is putting in place to mitigate the power shortage. I know that the Government is equal to the task and that it has done a lot to mitigate the power shortages, but just to make sure that the nation is up to speed and that the peopke do not take any negative sentiments that the Government is not doing anything, can we have the privilege of Her Honour the Vice-President to, at least, tell the nation, what the New Dawn Government is doing in this regard.

 The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I think, the hon. Member wants me to comment on what is happening in the energy sector. It is important that all of us understand where we are and why we are in this space, particularly, concerning electricity in the energy sector. We are in a space that nobody would want to be in.

Madam Speaker, I will still repeat what we said before because she has asked me to speak for the Government. As a nation, we took a long time to start improving the energy sector. We have been dependent on hydropower for a long time.  Yesterday, I heard one hon. Member debating that we are 80 per cent dependent on hydropower.  We did not invest much in the energy sector, from the United National Independence Party (UNIP) time. We must all understand that as a nation, we did not invest much in the energy sector and so, we have found ourselves in this crises, not just because of the growing economy and industry that needs energy, although that is part of it, but also because of the climate change, and unprecedented drought that has hit us. Therefore, it is wrong for anybody to finger-point at a Government that has been in power for three years and a few months, when they were in power for twenty years, twenty-seven years or ten years. This is a situation that has found us.

Madam Speaker, the President of the Republic of Zambia said that this terrible situation can be and is an opportunity for us to wake up and do what we must do to ensure that we have enough power. That is by looking at the different alternative energy sources other than just being dependent on hydropower. Even hydropower was not fully developed because there are still many areas that we could have developed. So, nobody should point at this Government. It is a legacy issue. However, this Government –

Mr B. Mpundu: It is crying.

The Vice-President: Yes, it is crying because people are crying.

Madam Speaker, what the hon. Member has referred to, shows that a lot is being done in this sector. The rainy season has just started, in earnest this week. We went down to two hours of power provision in many places, but we have improved the number of hours of providing power. The hon. Minister of Energy is not in the House –

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

The Vice-President: We have improved the number of hours we are providing power to the nation. Where is the improvement coming from? Yes, it may come from the import. The Government is working to ensure that we can develop other alternative sources of power. The hon. Member mentioned Maamba Collieries Company. We are growing there. There is a project there to increase power to 300 MW to improve on the power provision.

Madam Speaker, I can mention the solar power plants in Kabwe, Chisamba and many other places, but generally, we are trying to ensure that we leverage on solar and we are now doing it. Of course, we will still have to work on the infrastructure for the distribution of power. All these are in the plans so that there is much coverage for the amount of power produced.

Madam Speaker, it is wrong for anybody to stand anywhere and shamelessly say that this Government is doing nothing. This Government is doing a lot and we believe that we will overcome this particular challenge which has hit us. We will overcome this challenge even when hydropower is resuscitated because water comes back. God is giving us power –

Mr Mundubile: I thank you.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am still talking, why is he thanking me? We will still continue on this trajectory to ensure that we can provide alternative sources of power so that we do not once again fall into this trap.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Her Honour the Vice-President of the Republic of Zambia, One Zambia, One Nation.  One Nation, One People.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, three years have passed since August 2021. I would want Her Honour the Vice-President to comment on the state of affairs in relation to the retirement of civil servants in national interest, which used to take place in the last regime. So far, how many civil servants in Zambia have been retired in national interest without explanation?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President:  Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Kalabo Central, who I think addressed his question to the Vice-President so that the hon. Member for Mkushi South has no doubt of who I am, as I stand here.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I noticed that he struggled to address me. He thought I was a bishop or reverend. I am everything, but here, I am the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member said that it has been three years since this Government came into power. The question is how many people have been retired in national interest. I would have asked for help if people here wanted help. We saw many people retired in national interest. I would have asked the hon. Member for Chama North who is looking at me to describe national interest and public interest because they are not the same.

Madam Speaker, we do not retire a person who has done nothing, in public interest. That goes through processes. Now, people were being retired in national interest. I do not know what that meant. Those people who were retired were not re-assigned. Normally, national interest is re-assignment to another post. You cannot go back to what you were doing before, therefore, you are retired and appointed elsewhere for the good of the nation

Madam Speaker, people were being retired in national interest and asked to go home.  Which national interest is that, counsel? Since we came into office, as far as I know, standing here, nobody has been retired in national interest.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, it is very clear that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has abandoned the fight against corruption.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalolo stated his fears concerning the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). I am not sure if Her Honour the Vice-President knows that the ACC does not have a chief executive officer (CEO) and that the Government dissolved the board at the ACC.

Madam Speaker, what is happening at the ACC is exactly what is happening at the Auditor-General’s Office. Dr Ron Mwambwa has been in that office illegally for a long time, it is overage. His two deputies have been in acting positions since the UPND assumed office. These are watchdog institutions. Given that the Government has destroyed the ethics of watchdog institutions such as the ACC and the Auditor-General …

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: … would the Government still maintain that it is still fighting corruption?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, thank you and I would like to thank the hon. Member for Lunte for that question.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has said that the Government has squandered the fight against corruption. Did the hon. Member use the word ‘squandered’? The Government has not at all squandered the fight against corruption. In fact, I thought that the cry would be the other way round. I thought the hon. Member would say that the Government’s fight against corruption is adequate.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am happy that the hon. Member is still comfortable with the fight against corruption.

Hon. Opposition Members: How?

The Vice-President: Yes, because we, as the Government are fighting corruption. We will continue to fight corruption. We have not destroyed the ethics. 

Madam Speaker, I do not know why the hon. Member feels that Dr Mwambwa cannot perform his duties. We have talked about this issue many times on the Floor of this House. Dr Mwambwa and the other young lady at the ACC, who are acting in those positions are doing a great job. It has nothing to do with the work that they are doing unless it is something else.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members continuously receive reports through my office from the Auditor-General. Are they saying that those audits have queries and are not good? Hon. Members go through these reports and they are up to date. They bring out issues as they are audited. So, how is the Government squandering the fight against corruption?

Madam Speaker, the ACC is still doing its work. The question that the hon. Member for Nalolo asked referred to a matter that happened two years ago. Even then, the ACC still had a chief executive officer (CEO). However, the work is still going on even with the Acting CEO. The Government will continue to fight corruption and bring it to a certain level in the courts of law. Where it is necessary, these matters will be concluded. For this reason, the Government has established the Economic and Financial Crimes Court so that it can quickly deal with such matters, particularly, corruption matters that have to do with finances.

Madam Speaker, we are working. The ethics remain strong. Please, stay away from corruption because the law will surely catch up –

Mr Kafwaya rose.

The Vice-President: I am speaking to the people. Sorry, I will use another phrase. Sit down hon. Member.

When hon. Members ask me questions, I speak to the public through them. So, allow me to maybe, say through the hon. Member and particularly through the Hon. Madam Speaker, all of us must stay away from corruption.

Hon. Members: Corruption!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, under this Government, if one is involved in corrupt activities, one will be found and dealt with. Hon. Colleagues, I have said it before in this House that, umulandu taubola. There was an interpretation that a case never rots. However (laughs), I am sure there is a legal language to that matter. Criminality will always be followed.

Mr B. Mpundu: A crime does not rot?

The Vice-President: Yes, that is what I said, a crime will not rote.

Madam Speaker, let us not take advantage of our positions. If you commit a crime, you will be charged. That is why we have to strengthen the laws here, in this House so that a crime is dealt with.  In other places, they say: Your sin shall surely seek you out.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: On that note, we have come to the end of Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, with the advice that we must keep away from corruption.

–––––––

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, the rules of the House do not permit hon. Members to raise points of order during Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. I would like to premise my point of order on Standing Order No. 71.

Madam Speaker, the law of the land dictates that for constitutional offices, one cannot act if they do not qualify to be appointed as such. Here I am confused, that Her Honour the Vice-President has justified the acting of the Auditor-General as CEO, who, by the Constitution, does not qualify to even be appointed. In her response, she intimates that even if he is not substantively appointed, we still read his reports. In essence, Her Honour the Vice-President is justifying the holding of a position by a person who constitutionally is not qualified even to act.

Madam Speaker, is Her Honour the Vice-President in order to place it on record and rub it in our faces that we have a man, who is illegally in an office, which he does not even qualify to hold by the Constitution?

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Nkana is now presenting legal arguments in his point of order. He has not cited any authority to back his argument. Since he has sufficiently argued his point of order, we will leave it at that. Therefore, the point of order is not admitted.

Maybe, the hon. Member needs to consult legal gurus on who is qualified to act in constitutional offices.

CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES IN LUNDAZI DISTRICT

126. Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

1. whether the Government is aware that two people have been killed and another injured in the past one month in Lundazi District, following attacks on people riding motorbicycles; and

1. If so, what measures the Government is taking to safeguard the lives of the people in the district.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware of criminal activities that have occurred in Lundazi District in the Eastern Province in the last one month. The Zambia Police Service (ZPS) recorded two murders and aggravated robbery cases following attacks on people riding motorbicycles, as stated below.

Madam Speaker, on 4^th October, 2024 at 2240 hours, the ZPS received a report of murder through Lundazi Police Station, in which a teacher at Mankanka Primary School in Lundazi District reported that he and the others were attacked on their way back home from Mwase area after attending the 2024 Teacher’s Day celebration. He reported that he was with Mr Fred Musinda, aged thirty-one years, a teacher at Kaviskeske Primary School of Zinyoni Village, Chief Kapichila in Lundazi District, who was murdered and robbed of his unregistered Gatoma Motorcycle red in colour and valued at K25,000 by two unknown criminals armed with sticks. The victim sustained a cut on the forehead, and three other cuts on the head, a fractured arm and a dislocation on the right shoulder, while the deceased sustained multiple head injuries and a fractured skull. Sticks were alleged to have been used in the act. This incident occurred on 4^th October, 2024 around 2200 hours, along the Mwase/Mankanka Road about 20 metres from the Bowe turn-off in Lundazi District. Investigations have been instituted into the matter and no arrests have been made so far.

Madam Speaker, on 4^th November, 2024, at 0400 hours, the ZPS received a report of murder, and aggravated robbery through Lundazi Police Station. A male aged thirty years of Ntitimila area also of Bottom village, Chief Mwase in Lundazi District reported that his nephew, Mr Muzondi Moyo, aged thirty years was murdered by two unknown persons armed with sticks. This was after being attacked together with his two friends on their way back home from Chisinga area of Kasungu District in Malawi, where they had gone to watch a football match. The criminals also robbed them of an unregistered Sinola Motorbicycle, black in colour and valued at K22,000 a property of the deceased. The murder victim sustained a fractured skull and fractured lower jaw, while his two friends escaped unhurt. Sticks were allegedly used in the act. This occurred on 3^rd November, 2024 around 2000 hours at Kasungu National Park area in Malawi.

Madam Speaker, the brief facts are that on 3^rd November, 2024, around 1400 hours, Mr Muzondi Moyo left his home together with his two friends and went to Chisinga area of Kasungu District, in Malawi to watch a football match on an unregistered Sinola Motorbicycle, black in colour. After watching the match, around 1730 hours, the trio decided to drink some beer within Chisinga area before going back home, around 1930 hours. While riding back home, the victims reached at Kasungu National Park area, where they were attacked by two unnamed persons armed with sticks and in the process, the rider, Mr Muzondi Moyo was hit on the head with a stick. The trio fell off the Motorbicycle as the rider lost control of it. Thereafter, the two friends managed to escape leaving their friend lying unconsciously. Upon reaching the Zambian side, they informed the relatives of the deceased about the incident, who later made a follow-up and found Mr Muzondi Moyo lying dead with two big sticks around and the motorbicycle stolen. Later, the body was picked and taken to Lundazi Police Station where the matter was reported. Officers inspected the body and discovered that the deceased had sustained a fractured skull and a fractured lower jaw. The body was deposited at Lundazi District Hospital, where a post-mortem was conducted and results revealed that he died due to a fractured lower jaw and fractured skull, which led to internal head bleeding. Later, relatives were advised to go ahead with the burial. Investigations have been instituted into the matter to bring the culprits to book.

Madam Speaker, the ZPS has taken the following measures to protect the lives of the citizens, especially motorbicycle riders in Lundazi District:

1. intensified patrols across the district, focusing on areas with higher incidents of crime;

1. initiated a collaborative effort with the Malawi Police Service through the International Criminal Police Organisation (INTERPOL) to track and apprehend criminals who may be operating across the border and causing harm in both countries;

1. launched community engagement programs, focusing on sensitising motorbicycle riders and the general public about crime prevention and reporting. The community is being educated on how to stay alert, avoid risky routes and report suspicious activities promptly;

1. working with the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) to enforce stricter registration and licensing procedures for motorbicycles, ensuring that only authorised and law-abiding riders are operating. This will help reduce the number of unregistered and potentially stolen motorbicycles being used for criminal activities; and

1. placed strong emphasis on improving intelligence gathering to prevent criminal activities before they occur. The security wings in border areas are using informants and other intelligence systems to track criminal networks.

Madam Speaker, I have no doubt that once these measures are successfully implemented, crimes against motorbicycle riders will reduce in Lundazi District.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Before we get to supplementary questions, there was an indication for a point of order by the hon. Member for Chienge.

Rev. Katuta: Sorry, Madam Speaker, there was an hon. Member who was dosing, but now he has woken up.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: At least, he is awake.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, allow me to appreciate your office for admitting this matter and special gratitude goes to the Hon. Second Deputy Speaker, who at least, allowed the people of Lundazi to ask this question.

Madam Speaker, it is quite sad that we lost a teacher, who was only thirty-one years old and also Mr Muzondi Moyo, who was only thirty years old. These were very viable young people who could have contributed to the development of this country. Allow me to say my condolences to the two families and also to just say that the people of Lundazi should remain strong and vigilant.

Madam Speaker, the people in Lundazi are living in fear. Mwase area is about 40 km from the Boma and the police post in that area does not even have transport or fuel. My follow-up question, therefore, to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is:  How are the police officers patrolling the area to make sure that the people are safe? How are they patrolling the area when they do not even have what to use for their patrols? They do not have a motorbicycle or even a bicycle. Additionally, there is only one police officer in Mwase area. So, which police officers are patrolling that area, honestly?

Madam Speaker, I seek his serious answers because the people of Lundazi are waiting.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, in my response, I did mention that the police will be patrolling those areas. You are aware that through the courtesy of this House, we purchased motor vehicles for each constituency, including Lundazi Constituency. It now has a new Toyota Land Cruiser and because we are aware of the areas that are particularly vulnerable to such attacks, the police are using that vehicle to do just that, to patrol the area. I did mention that we are also engaging members of the public through community policing and intelligence work to ensure that we minimise the criminal activities. We are also working with INTERPOL to collaborate with our colleagues in Malawi to ensure that these particular criminal activities do not continue occurring in Lundazi.

Madam Speaker, as you may have noted, one of the deaths did not occur in Lundazi, it occurred in Malawi and that is why we are taking it upon ourselves to ensure that we work with our colleagues in Malawi. I did indicate that some of the motorbicycle that are being stolen in Zambia do not remain in Zambia, they are being taken to the neighbouring countries, hence the need for us to continue collaborating.

Further, Madam Speaker, I did mention yesterday, that we have been graced with a gift of motor vehicles by the People’s Republic of China. They have given us eighty motor vehicles.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: They are not yet in the country, but they will be available soon. They will go a long way in supplementing the good works of the ZPS. I do not dispute that the transport situation in the police service is poor. Even in one constituency like Lundazi, one vehicle is not adequate. If the hon. Members can be courteous again to buy another Land Cruiser, it would go a long way. It is for the use and the benefit of our people. It is not just the one vehicle that I am talking about, hon. Member of Parliament, I am talking about other measures; the vehicle is one and they are using it to patrol.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to ask a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, criminal activities have been happening around us for some time, especially in the last two years. We have seen people being attacked and losing their property, especially motorbicycles and bicycles, yet we have not seen any heightened response from the police. Now that the hon. Minister has mentioned here that they are using the police and INTERPOL and community policing, when did the ministry start doing this or is it now firefighting?  Is this when the ministry has started putting in place those measures? I ask that because we have not seen any action from the Central Government through his ministry to fight these crimes.

Madam Speaker, we have seen many unregistered bicycles, especially in the border towns.  Police officers are there and they are just watching them up until now. If we asked the hon. Minister the number of motorbicycles that have been stolen and taken to foreign countries, he would not know because almost all of them are not registered. So how is he policing when he does not have records?

  Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, this is a specific question for a specific area, which is Lundazi District. So, let us not open it too wide.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I would like to dispute the assertion that these crimes started occurring two years ago. We have had many of these incidences in the Eastern Province. You may be aware that the Eastern Province is one of the provinces that are rich in terms of ownership of bicycles and motorbicycles.  This is a fact. These incidences of thefts have been going on for quite some time. We have arrested a number of people and recovered some motorbicycles. The truth is that we may not have achieved the required success stories, but I can confirm to the hon. Member that there is a lot that is being done and even in my response, I have informed him of the measures that we are taking together with the community.

Madam Speaker, we cannot fight crime without involving the community. Some of these criminals live within the community. Members of the public know the people involved in these criminal activities, hence our desire to work with the community, including the hon. Members of Parliament, to ensure that we nab this sad scenario of criminal activities in the Eastern Province.

Madam Speaker, I do not know whether it is fortunate or unfortunate, but boundaries in the Eastern Province are not well defined in a number of areas. In one area, I cannot just remember the names of the villages, but you will find that a house would have its kitchen in Malawi and the sitting room in Zambia. People keep on trekking and crossing the border within the same area. It is difficult to police such areas because the people are one. Our people do not recognise those borders and as far as they are concerned, they are living with their relatives. Even what we call cross-border crimes of smuggling, people in the border areas do not believe in smuggling, they will tell you that they are just sharing with their relatives across. That is how it is, and so, we just need to find ways and means of ensuring that we curb crime in those areas. We are doing everything possible, but as I have said, there are inadequacies in terms of transport in the ZPS, which we are trying to alleviate. However, with your support we can do somthing. I know that the hon. Member of Parliament for Lundazi will be gracious enough to buy another Land Cruiser for us this coming year for the benefit of our people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about some places, where families would have their kitchen in Zambia and the sitting room in Malawi.  I find that answer to be a bit off, especially that we have lost lives here. I do not know if the hon. Minister has a problem, or maybe it is something else. I really do not know what to say.  The hon. Minister just graduated police officers in Kamfinsa, here in Lysaka at Lilayi and in Sondela. He has one police officer –

Hon. Member: So, you do follow? 

Ms Nyirenda: Yes, I do follow because I am a representative of the people. The question I asked just required the hon. Minister to give us more police officers in Lundazi. What is wrong with informing us today, that some police officers will be sent to Lundazi?  What the hon. Minister is saying, that they are patrolling the area is a lie. He is not doing that. He is just being diplomatic in his responses.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Lundazi!  

Please, just ask questions based on facts, do not use words which are unparliamentary. Please, withdraw the word “lie”.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word “lie” because I want the hon. Minister to really do something for our people in Lundazi. The question that I have for the hon. Minister is: Would he be kind enough to send some of the offices whom he has just graduated to Lundazi?  If possible, could he employ the people from Lundazi because those officers from other districts will run away again. It is important that he also picks from some of the locals there. He should recruit them so that they can remain there unlike those from other districts, who once they are recruited will still go back to his office to ask for transfers.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, for the first time in the last ten years, we, as the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, have recruited policemen from every constituency of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was about to indicate that this Government has recruited police officers from every constituency and I noted that a number of hon. Members of Parliament were trying to stand up as if they were the recruiting officers.

Madam Speaker, I want to inform this House without fear of any contradiction ...

Mr Nkandu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: ... that we recruited from every constituency and we have evidence. Even –

Rev. Katuta: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, can I be allowed to embarrass some people by naming their children who were employed in a particular constituency?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Ms Mulenga: Name them!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

 No, there is no need for naming.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I was going to do that.

Madam Speaker, I have indicated that we recruited from every constituency. Even as late as yesterday, if you checked the records, you would find that the majority of the children who got awards were from the Eastern Province, the Northern Province and the North-Western Province. I am just informing this House that we recruited from every province and every constituency. The records are there and some parents are here in the House. I do not want to embarrass them.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I also want to state that when an hon. Member comes to represent a constituency, he/she must be factual. We are being told that at Mwase, there is only one –

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, we have been informed on the Floor of this House that at Mwase Police Post, there is only one policeman and that is what is on record and that is what has been mentioned by the hon. Member for Lundazi.

Ms Nyirenda indicated for a point of order.

Madam Speaker, at Mwase Police Post, there are three officers and the record is there. At an appropriate time, I can even come and mention the names of the officers who are serving at Mwase Police Post. The only issue that I have admitted to is that it needs more officers, but not to say that it has one policeman. No, that is not correct.

Madam Speaker, we have been graduating police officers. In the last month, more than 4,200 policemen have graduated, for the first time in the history of this country. We are going to ensure that those police officers are posted to strategic areas where there is a need. That is what we are going to do. We are going to send officers to Lundazi. We will do that because we know that there is a need. Every hon. Member of Parliament here has been raising the issue of the need for policemen and policewomen in their constituencies and we are going to ensure that we send officers to those police posts.

Madam Speaker, unfortunately, in some of the places where the police posts are being built, there are no houses for us to send officers to. So, I plead with my hon. Colleagues here to spend a bit of our Constituency Development Funds (CDF) on building houses for policemen and then we will send the police there. We are looking forward to recruiting more policemen and policewomen next year.

Madam Speaker, saying that I was being mischievous when I mentioned that the kitchen can be in Malawi while its bedroom or sitting room is in Zambia, is a fact. The hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources is there. The ministry is trying to make demarcation of the borders between Zambia, Mozambique, Malawi and Tanzania. That is why if you go to these places, the village headman may be in Malawi and the subjects can be in Zambia or the other way round because we are one people. That is how we are, and we cannot run away from that fact. I am not being mischievous. We are the same people, unless the hon. Member says that the Malawians are different. It is a colonial legacy. We cannot run away from that. That is why Chief Gawa Undi, who is based in Zambia, is ruling in Malawi and Mozambique because we are one people. It is the same.

Mr Twasa: That is why they voted.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kasenengwa, you have not been given the Floor.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I can agree that Malawians voted for the Patriotic Front (PF) in 2021. So, it is a fact.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, we are doing everything possible within our powers to ensure that we protect our people in Lundazi and other areas.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Mulenga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security just admitted on the Floor of this House to corruption when he said that he knew some hon. Members in this House, whose children were appointed in the Police Service.  Therefore, was the recruitment based on whom you know and whose children you are? Are we having a police force that is deployed based on –

Interruptions

Ms Mulenga: This is what the hon. Minister said, “I can mention some of your children here.”  He asked you, Madam Speaker, if he could mention and you refused. That gives us a lot of worry, it means that the recruitment was based on whom you know.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to admit to corruption publicly?

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, can you cite the Standing Order that has been breached.

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 71.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we started on a good note. The question that is on the Floor of the House is very serious because lives have been lost. Is it possible to just concentrate on the question on the Floor so that the hon. Member of Parliament for Lundazi can give comprehensive feedback to the people. However, it is like we are now going all over when the main problem, which was brought by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lundazi, is known.

Hon. Members, as we are almost winding up with this question, let us ask relevant questions so that the hon. Minister can answer. The guidance to the hon. Minister was already given when I told him that, there was no need of bringing or mentioning names and I thought it ended there. Let it end there, no names should be brought to the House. Let us concentrate on the question before us.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity that you have given to the people of Chasefu to ask the hon. Minister a supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, first and foremost, the people of Chasefu and Lundazi are one and the same .We share the same border and we live together. Actually, I live with my sister, the hon. Member for Lundazi. What the hon. Member is talking about and what is happening is a real situation. It is not only happening in Lundazi, but also in Chasefu.  On a daily basis, we are losing lives. I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the responses.

Madam Speaker, before I ask my question, I would like to thank the Government for buying motor vehicles under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). They have helped to mitigate some challenges. However, what has happened in Lundazi and what continues to happen is real. I am happy that the hon. Minister has responded to the issue of lack of manpower. Let us listen to our sister, the people of Chasefu and everywhere else.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is right regarding the borders. Our borders are no borders. When I cross on one side, I am in Malawi and on the other side it is Zambia. There are no proper boundaries. I am sure that the Government is working on it. There is also the lack of seriousness on the part of criminal investigating officers. In the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) and the Civil Service Commission (CSC), there is a standard of one serving for a certain number of years. After that, they need to be transferred. However, when we look at the Crime Investigation Department (CID), which is especially charged with the responsibility of investigating some of these crimes or potential areas of crime, we see that there is a compromise. The officers are very quick to arrest people, especially traffic officers. Our people in Lundazi and Chasefu are crying because traffic officers are impounding their vehicles and arresting them. They are very effective in that area. However, in the CID, we have a situation.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister considering making routine transfers of those charged with the responsibility of investigations?  It is said that familiarity breeds contempt, and so when police officers overstay in their offices, they are not effective. Is the ministry joining other institutions in the Civil Service in ensuring that time and again, it rotates the  officers so that they can come with fresh input to investigate and mitigate these issues of crime?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I would like to acknowledge and appreciate the question that has been raised by my hon. Colleague pertaining to officers overstaying in particular areas. That is true, and the ministry is taking appropriate action. We have noted that officers are finding it difficult to investigate their neighbours because they have stayed long and they have associated themselves with these communities. We have taken note of that. 

Madam Speaker, with your permission, there is no corruption if an hon. Member’s child or grandchild applies in any of the Government’s institutions and they follow the procedure and he/she is recruited. That is not corruption. So, hon. Members of Parliament whose relatives were recruited did not corrupt anybody. Their children were recruited normally like any other. So, that is the issue.

Madam Speaker, I also want to state that we are going to ensure, I am just re-emphasising, that areas that have deficits in terms of police manpower will be attended to, especially in the rural areas. I am aware of that. So, the officers should stay there.

Madam Speaker, the other issue, which I want to bring to your attention, is that, the same colleagues and others, when they hear that somebody known to them is transferred to a certain rural place, they start harassing the Police Command saying, "No, transfer that person, that place is not conducive". That is what happens. As a result, officers do not stay there. Let us ensure that if one is posted to a rural place, at least one should stay there for three years before being transferred to another place. That is fairness.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Nyirenda indicated to ask a question.

Madam First Deputy Speaker:  Hon. Member for Lundazi, were you not given two allocations?

Hon. Members: Three!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You are done.

Ms Nyirenda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. The hon. Minister informed the nation that I must be factual when representing my people. I live in Lundazi, and I stay in Mwase area. Bowe area, which we are talking about, where a teacher was killed, is my village.

Madam Speaker, we have a Mr Kangwa, the Officer-in-Charge at Mwase Police Post, I do not know his rank. The other officer the hon. Minister is talking about was arrested and serving a twenty-year jail sentence in Chipata. So, which other officer is at Mwase apart from Mr Kangwa? Otherwise, the hon. Minister's officers are not reporting for duty. He should be worried that they are not there unless he has sent them there, but they have not reported. I am being factual with what I am saying. I have no reason to tell lies.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, that does not qualify as a point of order. It looks like it is a message to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. Hon. Member for Lundazi, please, this is not the end of seeking solutions to this question.  Visit the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, sit down and discuss the matter. If you have certain information which might be lacking in the ministry, provide that information to the hon. Minister so that you can come up with a solution for your people. If you argue, it looks as if you are not united on this issue. It will not help your people in the constituency. Please, find time to engage the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. I am sure he is going to accommodate you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker called for consideration of Question No. 127 on the Order Paper.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My apologies, we will go backwards. By prior arrangement, I was told that the hon. Minister attending to Question No.127 has an emergency. So, we will consider the next question and then come back to Question No.127 after the Acting hon. Minister deals with Question No. 128.

CREATION OF OLD PEOPLE’S HOMES IN CHITAMBO DISTRICT

128. Mr Mutale (Chitambo) asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

1. whether the Government has any plans to create old people’s homes in Chitambo District;

1. if so, how many are earmarked for creation; and 

1. if there are no such plans, why?

Interruptions

The Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu) (on behalf of the Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms Mwamba)): Madam Speaker (laughs), these Tonse people always want to fight others.  

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government does not have any immediate, underline, "immediate plans" to create old people’s homes in Chitambo District. However, the Government will continue to run the two existing homes, namely Maramba Old People’s Home in Livingstone and Chibolya Old People’s Home in Mufulira. In addition, the ministry recognises a number of privately-run old people’s homes dotted around the country and supports some of them through grants.

Madam Speaker, since we do not have any immediate plans, part (b) of the question falls off. However, it is something that could be considered in future.

Madam Speaker, I wish to enlighten the House that the Government is promoting community or family-based care for older persons with institutional care being a measure of last resort. This is because of the many benefits of community and family-based care on the welfare of older persons which include:

1. older persons enjoy their full rights as everyone else;

1. community and family-based care foster a feeling of independence among the older persons;

1. there is also the guarantee of ageing humanely within the mainstream society; and

1. it provides an opportunity for the broader populace to tap into the talents and wisdom of the older persons within their community and use it to further strengthen the community and family systems.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the House should be informed that the Government recognises the challenges faced by older persons in society and as such, ageing is one of the eligibility criteria for various social protection interventions being implemented across the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, this country needs to take care of older people. Money such as the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) and Cash-for-Work is being given. People are supposed to get this money through their mobile phones and so on. Some elderly people in my constituency cannot manage to go and work so that they can get the money called Cash-for-Work. The hon. Minister has said, the Government does not have immediate plans to build them homes where they can be kept together and be taken care of. Could he indicate to the people of Chitambo how the Government will take care of the aged. In his answer, he said that the Government is promoting community-based care and family-based care. I am alive to that score. I know that most old people in my constituency do not have families. They may have remained alone in their lineage. How is the ministry or the Government going to take care of these old people who are homeless, have no food and are suffering due to water shortages?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chitambo for that question. I should now take advantage of this opportunity to encourage our citizens. I believe that in the rural parts of our country, everyone is related to at least one person in that particular village. If we have people whom we should appreciate, it is those from the rural parts of this country because they are traditionalists and have respect for culture. They will never forget where they are coming from, I believe so. I said I should take advantage of this opportunity by saying that in Zambia today, I think, we have a challenge when it comes to taking care of others, especially I, as Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts. I want to connect the two issues.

Madam Speaker, today, we have people we are calling junkies around us, and now, we have the fluffies. This is because our people in this country have prioritised nuclear families. It is high time we got back to where we started from by also prioritising extended families. I believe that everyone should have a relation to a certain extended family. So, I want to appeal to the Zambian people to prioritise that. A nuclear family is just my wife, my children and I. What about those others? So, to avoid that and reduce on the junkies and fluffies, and those whom the hon. Member is talking about, we need to make sure that we extend that warmth to those who lost their beloved ones. I thought that was important.

Madam Speaker, I should also take advantage of this opportunity to acknowledge Hon. Kasune’s gesture, which I saw. She distributed blankets to the elderly in her constituency. So, let us continue helping our people rather than bringing issues by trying to put up these homes for the elderly so that we can now take people out of their respective villages. I think that is not the best approach.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is using assumptions in answering my questions. The question that I had put forward was straightforward. I asked how the Government would take care of the old people in Chitambo, who cannot afford to have a meal or even go and farm and so on and so forth. However, his answers are not straightforward. He brought up issues of nuclear families even when I said that some of them do not even have relatives there. I want this question to be answered so that I know what the Government is planning to do about these people’s welfare. Hon. Kasune might give blankets to the elderly in her constituency, but how many will she give? We have the Government to take care of these people. That is what we want. I want answers from the Government on how it will intervene, not Hon. Kasune to go to Chitambo to give blankets.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: As I take the last question from hon. Member, please, hon. Minister, remember to cover Hon. Mutale’s question.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the Acting hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services is aware that under his ministry, in 2015, there were three policies that were approved. The first policy is the National Policy on Aging of 2015, which recognises that people get old and that at some point, they will need special care. The second policy is the National Policy on Disability, which somehow speaks to the discussion that we are having today. The last policy is the National Social Protection Policy. These three policies were enacted or approved in 2015 by the Government.

Madam Speaker, given the issue that has been raised in Chitambo and, recognising that we still have a problem at hand, what is the Government going to do? Regardless of the goodwill from the hon. Member of Parliament, because the hon. Member of Parliament can only do so much, regardless of what other individuals can do, as the Government, with all these three policies that you have, how soon do we intend to attend to this very huge problem that is not only in Chitambo, but many other parts of Zambia?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Members for those supplementary questions. I need to state that I just gave an example and I think that I explained that. To make my point very clear, I had to give an example of Keembe Constituency. It does not mean that the Government will depend much on the hon. Members. I just commended what I saw. So, that should not be referred to as something that the Government is doing.

Madam Speaker, coming to the hon. Member’s question, when we are reading these responses, hon. Members need to make sure that they pay extra attention. The questions they asked, I think I already talked about it in my concluding remarks as I was answering. Let me repeat for the sake of others and I will be very slow. I said, in fact, ageing is one of the eligibility criteria for various social protection interventions. That was the answer. So, it means that even those who are in Chitambo or the ones Hon. Kang’ombe talked about who are elsewhere, can still be looked after by this Government through these social protection interventions, like the Social Cash Transfer (SCT), the Food Security Pack (FSP) and others. So, this is how this Government is trying to progressively help the people that you are talking about.

Madam Speaker, policies always expire. The policy of 2015, I believe, it expired in 2020 because it was a five-year policy. Regarding the policy issues that Hon. Kang’ombe talked about, the Government is now trying to revise some of these policies, and in some cases, replace them. So, this is what we are doing.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, I hope your question is related to Chitambo.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Yes, it is, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister cited a very interesting example of how the extended family values have been diluted. There are so many factors that have contributed to that. One of them is affordability, where people cannot look after those that are beyond their nuclear families. Regarding the example that he used of the vulnerable youths who are now roaming the streets, in the past, there was a programme of taking them to camps as a way of reformation. We also had an old people’s concept, which is similar to that programme. Would the hon. Minister not consider the concept of old people’s homes, those old people who are vulnerable and have no one to depend on, in the case of Chitambo?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that supplementary question. Indeed, it is worth considering. In my response, I said, we do not have immediate plans, but some of these issues are not cast in stone. Obviously, when there is a need, we will be able to make sure that we also appreciate what Hon. Kampyongo has talked about.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 FORMER WORKERS OF THE SOUTHERN AFRICA ALLOYS

LIMITED, IN SERENJE DISTRICT

127. Mr E. Banda (Muchinga) asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

1. whether the Government is aware that the former workers of Southern Africa Alloys Limited in Serenje District, who got sick due to exposure to manganese dust and were discharged on medical grounds, are living in destitution as they are paid only K600 per month as compensation by the Workers’ Compensation Fund Control Board; and

1. if so, what measures the Government is taking to assist the former workers.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation (Mr Haimbe, SC.) (on behalf of the Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba)): Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, is fully aware of the incidence involving the Southern African Ferro Alloys Limited (SAFAL) workers. The Board of the Workers’ Compensation Fund Control Board (WCFCB) received a report in line with Section 88(1) of the Workers Compensation Act No. 10 of 1999 of the laws of Zambia, on the incident of an occupational hazard relating to the exposure of workers to manganese dust, involving twenty-seven workers from SAFAL.

Madam Speaker, the board subjected the victims to medical examinations at the Occupational Safety and Health Institute (OSHI) in Kitwe and the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) in Lusaka for assessment of the degree of disablement suffered for the purpose of awarding compensation. The said assessments were done and the board computed the compensation due to each of the workers using a pre-defined formula as prescribed in the Workers Compensation Act No. 10 of 1999. You may wish to note that the compensation paid by the board is based on the degree of disablement as determined by competent medical staff.

The compensation awarded to these workers is 50 per cent of the assessable income, which currently stands at or at the material time, at K1,200. The victims were awarded compensation in the form of cash and comprehensive medical care according to the degrees of disablement suffered as indicated below:

1. thirteen are receiving compensation amounting to K2,175, broken down into a monthly pension of K675 and the Constant Attendance Allowance (CAA) of K1,500;

1. two are only entitled to a monthly pension of K591 and K506 respectively plus the CAA of K1,500;

1. two are entitled to a monthly pension of K675 and K607;

1. two are only entitled to a monthly pension of K384 and K337;

1. six are entitled to a monthly pension of K300; and

1. two are yet to be assessed as the UTH has not yet provided the results as this type of occupational disease is novel.

Madam Speaker, the CAA is a disability benefit designed to facilitate for daily care for highly or severely disabled beneficiaries who require constant support. This means that, for those highlighted above, if they are not receiving the CAA, it is because they do not require constant support.

Madam Speaker, over and above that, the WCFCB does not only provide the cash benefits aforementioned, but has also ensured that all victims are placed on a regular scheduled UTH evacuation programme for medical care and physiotherapy and all costs relating to the aforementioned, which include transport, food, lodging and prescribed medicines are met by the board. The costs of medical care are not capped.

Madam Speaker, as I mentioned above, there is a swath of measures that are being taken under the board as has been clearly outlined above. In addition, the workers did receive their leave pays that were due as well as their gratuity. So, from a contractual perspective, all their dues were paid. I also wish to mention that the Government is currently looking at the proposed amendment to the Workers Compensation Act No. 10 of 1999. Therefore, it may not be fully responsive to the requirements of beneficiaries in this day and age.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I must mention that I have met the former workers of Southern Africa Ferro Alloys Limited (SAFAL) several times to understand how they are coping with life after they were dropped from the company payroll. What I have observed is that contrary to what the hon. Minister has said, there are only two payment systems. The most severely hit are paid K600 per month, while those in the category where they are regarded as a bit better are getting K120 monthly. The hon. Minister also talked about the Constant Attendance Allowance (CAA) of K1,500. I have never heard of anyone among the sick people getting the K1,500 CAA. If you were to meet these people, you would notice that their living conditions are very bad. Therefore, my question is, looking at the condition of these people, why can the Government not come in and call the company that formally employed them and also the sick people to find a solution or rather a way of how the company can continue helping these people while we are waiting for that Act to be amended? So, this will ensure that these people are taken care of because currently, the situation is not good. If you saw th way these people are living, or the situation in which they are in, you would really feel bad.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, the information that has been brought forward is based on records. I would urge the hon. Member of Parliament in the goodwill that he is executing to also take a further step of not just listening to one side of the story, but equally checking with the WCFCB in terms of the records that are available for payments that are being made. If it is then found that the records do not reflect that payments are being made as required by law, then it would entail that a further step be taken to ensure that lawful payments are made.

Madam Speaker, I also want to reiterate that in terms of the compensation being received, while we commiserate, as the Government, with the plight of these individuals, unfortunately, these matters are based on law and contract. So, if they were serving under certain conditions of the contract and those have been met, it becomes very difficult to expect either the employer or the Government to go beyond the contractual provisions or what the law provides. That becomes a purely gratis situation which is humanitarian and based on negotiation. I am sure, the hon. Member of Parliament can also influence through his skills of negotiation on behalf of these people looking at it from a purely humanitarian perspective. Otherwise, in terms of Government obligation as at now, the provisions of the law are what dictates.

Madam Speaker, I also want to re-emphasise that it is very clear even in the statutory provisions that, for instance, the minimum pension cannot be K120. It is K300 by law. If that is not being followed, which I doubt that a statutory body like WCFCB could do, then there is a need to follow-up and we would happily assist in that regard.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the answer that the hon. Minister has just given. I must state that I am trying as much as I can to get involved in this matter. However, currently, what is at stake is that there is also, I am told, an involvement of private lawyers who have gone to these people to try and help them by taking the company to court. This has made me a bit reluctant to start negotiating with the company on behalf of the families because I do not want to be cited as though I am defending anyone here. However, I just want to encourage the Government, through the WCFCB, to visit these people and understand what they are going through so that even as we discuss this matter, the board can understand and even verify the figures because I still stand that the highest is paid K600 while the lowest gets K120.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Since that is an encouragement, I will just take the last question from one hon. Member and then, the hon. Minister can make a comment on the encouragement that has been given.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, it is very clear that Southern African Ferro Alloys Limited (SAFAL) committed a serious crime that resulted in the permanent impairment of its former members of staff. I want to find out from the hon. Minister if this particular company was prosecuted and what penalties were meted out against this serious crime?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, I am not aware whether there was any prosecution of the company in terms of the factual situation that is on the ground. The question, of course, was on the issue of compensation.  So, we are happy to check those records and revert to the hon. Member for Lukashya with that particular information. Of course, as the hon. Member understands, there will be provisions in the law that relate to, for instance, strict liability in terms of the civil proceedings and then, there will be a threshold for crime proceedings. Whether or not that has been met, I am unable to give that information here, in the House because it was not part of the question, but we are happy to give the information.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we are behind time. We still have two items on our Order Paper.

_______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE ZAMBIAN DELEGATION TO 149^TH IPU ASSEMBLY IN GENEVA, SWITZERLAND

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the report of the Zambian delegation that participated in the 149^th Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) Assembly and related meetings laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 7^th November, 2024.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Kamboni: Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Rt. Hon. Madam Speaker, led a delegation of the 149^th IPU Assembly and related meetings that were held from 13^th October, 2024 to 17^th October, 2024.  Let me draw the attention of the House to the salient features of the report.

Madam Speaker, the 149^th IPU Assembly was convened under the theme “Harnessing Science, Technology and Innovation (STI) for a more Peaceful and Sustainable Future.”  The theme of the Assembly was timely given that the world now is experiencing rapid and unprecedented advancement in science, technology and innovation. These advancements have undoubtedly contributed to improving people’s lives. For example, innovations such as vaccines and green technologies have contributed towards improving health, providing economic opportunities and addressing climate change. However, STI could potentially pose several risks and challenges that could destabilise peace and sustainability in the world. These challenges relate to, among others, data privacy and security, regulatory lag, misinformation and disinformation. Therefore, this underscores the need for us hon. Members of Parliament to align policies in a way that will harness the power of STI for the good while putting ethical and security implications into consideration.

Madam Speaker, as the House may be aware, the contribution of STI to a more peaceful and sustainable future is well acknowledged globally. For instance, Sustainable Development Goal (SDG) No. 9 on industry, innovation and infrastructure speaks to fostering innovation and technological progress for promoting inclusive and sustainable industrial development. In addition, SDG No. 9 advocates for partnerships to support the development of STI through the operationalisation of a technology, bank and STI capacity building mechanism for supporting developing countries. Similarly, Article 27 of the United Nations Declaration for Human Rights affirms everyone’s right to share in scientific advancement and its benefits. In the same vein, the IPU indicator for democratic Parliaments underscores the need for scientific knowledge and expertise to inform policy making, which benefits all.

Madam Speaker, it is also noteworthy that the Zambian Parliament has long recognised the importance of STI to sustainable national development. To this end, through its primary functions, the Zambian Parliament has enacted laws that govern the STI sector, such as the Science and Technology Act No. 26 of 1997, the Zambian Academy of Sciences Act No. 18 of 2020, the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Act No. 2 of 2021, the Data Protection Act No. 3 of 2021. Further, it also provides oversight through the Committee on Media, Information and Communication Technologies to ensure that advancements in STI are not abused for activities such as cyber-crime, hate speech and misinformation that can destabilise peace.

Madam Speaker, another issue that I want to bring to the attention of the House is the issue that was brought out by the IPU Committee on the Human Rights of Parliamentarians. The IPU  Committee on the Human Rights of Parliamentarians reported on its latest caseload detailing severe human rights violations faced by hundreds of hon. Members of Parliament worldwide. It was heard that the violations included, among others, attacks on freedom of expression, suspension or loss of Parliamentary mandate, threats, intimidation, torture, arbitrary arrest and enforced disappearance. The delegation joined many other Parliamentarians in condemning these violations and called for stronger actions against such. 

Madam Speaker, let me inform the House that the 149^th IPU Assembly reaffirmed its commitment to harnessing science, technology and innovation to address the pressing global challenges of our time and to advance peace, sustainable development and human rights. The Assembly noted with satisfaction that the theme of science, technology and innovation permeated the important commitments adopted by the United Nations (UN) General Assembly in September 2024. This included the Pact for the Future, the Global Digital Compact and the Declaration on Future Generations and thus, committed themselves to working closely with the Executive branches of member Governments, the UN systems and civil society on implementing the commitments.

Madam Speaker, let me conclude by informing the House that the Assembly resolved that the 150^th IPU Assembly and related meetings will be held in April, 2025, in Tashkent, Uzbekistan.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, my point of order is based on Article 77 of the Constitution backed by the Standing Orders. It says that Parliament shall make its own rules. From my counting, I noticed that the quorum in the House has collapsed for some time, but we have been transacting the business of the House without a quorum. Even those who have been given the privilege to join the proceeding of the House using the virtual platform are wearing caps and the like. Of course, that platform has never been respected, and I raised a point of order in line with that before. To me, that cannot be considered being present in the House because if one does not follow what has been prescribed to be followed – I saw Hon. Munsanje appearing on the virtual platform wearing a cap and moving about, including many other people. I have been observing that electronically. So, I do not know if that is presence in Parliament. The number of hon. Members present here in the House, is also not sustainable. According to our rules, the quorum has not been formed.

 I need your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, you have mentioned two issues in one point of order. You are supposed to be precise. You have talked about whether an hon. Member attending the Sitting virtually is considered to be present and also that the quorum has not been formed. You are supposed to be precise on one matter. So, in that case, your point of order is not admissible.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, try to be precise.   

Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Wamunyima: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I rise to second the Motion ably moved by the Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central, Hon. Harry Kamboni, the first Vice-President of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) Zambia National Group.

Madam   Speaker, the mover of the Motion has highlighted pertinent issues to do with science and technology for a mere peaceful and sustainable future.

Madam Speaker, your delegation recognises the importance of science and technology, particularly, the IPU's current programme of work around Artificial Intelligence (AI) and initiatives of the IPU working group for science and technology. My short debate will focus mainly on Science, Technology and Innovation (STI) and how this can be mainstreamed in gender.

Madam Speaker, as you may be aware, your male delegation to the IPU was privileged to join the female hon. Members of Parliament in the Forum of Women Parliamentarians at the IPU Assembly, where a number of critical issues were considered. Among them the impact of AI, democracy, human rights and the rule of law.

Madam Speaker, it is very important for me to underscore the importance of science and technology in decision making. The STI policies and programmes must be put in place to be effective, equitable and sustainable in order to have a clear gender lens that reflects the aims, constituency situation and abilities of both women and men.

Madam Speaker, there is no doubt that the participation of women in science and technology can increase their contribution to society because among other things, they could influence the agenda of science and technology in terms of research and development.

Madam Speaker, however, the current gender imbalance when it comes to science and technology presents a challenge in this regard. I would like to state that this opportunity to participate in –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I have been advised that we have no quorum. Can we ring the bell.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, there is still no quorum. The time is 1210 hours. Therefore the House is  adjourned.

(Debate adjourned)

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The House adjourned at 1211 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesdays, 19^th November, 2024.

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