Wednesday, 27^th November, 2024

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

YOUTHS FROM THE YOUTH LEADERSHIP DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME (YLDP)

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of a group of youths undertaking capacity building in leadership under the Youth Leadership Development Programme (YLDP), which is being facilitated by the Friedrich Ebert Stiftung (FES) Zambia office in Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE (AI) CONSULTANTS

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of three consultants specialised in artificial intelligence (AI).

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM SHAMMAH SCHOOL

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from Shammah School of Chongwe District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

MR MICHELO, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR BWEENGWA, ON MR MTOLO, HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, ON A MESSAGE OF HOPE FOR THE FARMERS

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): On an Urgent Matter Without Notice, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: An Urgent Matter Without Notice is raised by the hon. Member for Bweengwa.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter without Notice is directed to the Minister of Agriculture, Hon. Mtolo.

Madam Speaker, we are just coming out of a period of drought and the rainy season has started. This time around, many people, especially in the Southern Province where it is raining, have already started buying maize field’s worth of expected harvest. Imagine buying maize that has not yet reached knee length. It is worrying. The President prayed for good rainfall last month. We also heard that some people in the alliance partners group, Tonse Alliance, were praying hard and hoping that we would not have rainfall this year. The reason they gave is that they want the 19 million Zambian people to continue going hungry, which is not good. Those are the people who voted for them, yet some members of that group want them to continue suffering the way they have been suffering during the drought.

Madam Speaker, I want the hon. Minister to give a word of hope to the people of Zambia, especially the farmers, so that those who are ready to plant can go full swing into planting maize, and we can have enough food for our citizens as opposed to the situation in which some people are hoping that the Zambian people continue going hungry.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Bweengwa, you were not specific enough. You brought up two matters. You said that some people want the drought to be prolonged. I do not know whether you have evidence of those people who are against the onset of the rainy season. You also talked about people who have started buying maize fields for future harvests. When you are raising Urgent Matters Without Notice, you are supposed to be specific. I would advise you to find another platform to bring up those two issues.

MR ANDELEKI, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KATOMBOLA, ON MR. MTOLO, HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, ON THE CHALLENGES IN BUYING RELIEF MAIZE IN KATOMBOLA CONSTITUENCY

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): On an Urgent Matter Without Notice, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: An Urgent Matter Without Notice is raised by the hon. Member for Katombola.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter Without Notice is directed to the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is one of the most hardworking Ministers in the history of this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, the people of Katombola have started experiencing serious rainfall. His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, was in my constituency on 5^th November, 2024. He addressed the issue pertaining to the vastness of the constituency and the problems that are being experienced when buying maize. People have to move from Moomba to Kazungula Border, which is over 400 km. The President directed that urgent measures be put in place to ensure that the procedure for buying maize in the constituency is simplified because now that the rainy season has started, some places will soon become impassable and lives may be lost. A declaration of a national disaster was made by His Excellency the President earlier this year. Therefore, can the hon. Minister assure the people of Katombola that they will be buying maize using an easier way, as guided by His Excellency the President when he travelled to Nyawa for the Guta Mwenze Bbywe Traditional Ceremony of Nyawa Chiefdom?

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Again, that seems to be an old matter. The Urgent Matters Without Notice are supposed to be raised within twenty-four hours of their occurrence. Hon. Member, you mentioned that His Excellency the President visited your constituency a month ago. Therefore, the matter does not qualify as an Urgent Matter Without Notice. You can file in a question.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, the situation is happening at present.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Since it is the beginning of the rainy season and we have heard many complaints about how difficult it is to buy maize, are you talking about relief maize, hon. Member?

Mr Andeleki indicated assent.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: If it is the relief maize, I would advise you to file in an urgent question so that the people can be helped.

MR CHIBOMBWE, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR BAHATI, ON MR CHIKOTE, HON. MINISTER OF ENERGY, ON THE RECENT NATIONWIDE BLACKOUT

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): On an Urgent Matter Without Notice, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: An Urgent Matter Without Notice is raised by the hon. Member for Bahati.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, the country experienced a power blackout a couple of days ago, and the Government has not–

Interruptions

Mr Chibombwe: Fyamano imwe ifi, icongo.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Bahati, you are addressing me, not the hon. Members on the right. So, be guided and continue with your Urgent Matter Without Notice.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, I am directing this Urgent Matter Without Notice to the hon. Minister of Energy.

Madam Speaker, the nation experienced a power blackout just a few days ago, …

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Chibombwe: … and the Government has not come out to explain what really caused that situation that we experienced. The process of restoring power, which is known as the Black start, was delayed by ZESCO Limited. The utility company delayed restoration of power to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), State House, the airports and this institution, the National Assembly of Zambia. Those are critical institutions that should have power within twenty minutes after a blackout occurs. Is the hon. Minister in order to remain quiet without coming to the Floor of this House to explain to the country why the nation experienced that power blackout?

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Bangweulu, when you were raising the matter–

Hon. Members: Bahati!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Oh, Bahati.

Hon. Member for Bangweulu, sorry. I meant the hon. Member for Bahati.

Hon. Member for Bahati, when you were raising your matter, you mentioned two items; the issue of not having power, there was a blackout, and then you went ahead to talk about the areas at which there was a late restoration of power, such as the hospital and the airport. Moreover, statements were issued by ZESCO Limited and the Permanent Secretary (PS) in the Ministry of Energy. There was also an apology that was published over the same, which I saw in the newspaper. So, really, I do not know whether that statement should be repeated in the House. So, please, find another platform you can use to bring up that matter. It is inadmissible because you brought up two matters in one. You are supposed to be specific.

We make progress. 

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is an indication for a point of order from the hon. Member for Lunte.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 142 has the provisions for Urgent Matters Without Notice, and that is the basis for my point of order.

Madam Speaker, I raise the point of order on my colleague from Bweengwa, Hon. Michelo Kasauta.

Hon. UPND Members interjected.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, two hon. Members are now calling this point of order a point of jealousy; the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts and the hon. Member for–

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, these are our Standing Orders (he held up the Standing Orders). The Order that I have quoted is contained herein. This is important business. Is my hon. colleague, Hon. Michelo, in order to waste the Zambian people's time by raising a matter that does not exist, and yet the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is infested with many scandals and the Zambian people are suffering?

Hon UPND Members: Question! 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker–

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Do not debate your point of order.

Mr Kafwaya: I will not and I will stop there.

Madam Speaker, the Zambian people are suffering as a result of the recklessness and the lack of care on the part of the UPND Government. Is Hon. Michelo in order to politicise a very important section in which hon. Members, like the hon. Member for Mpika, indicate to raise matters, but the slot goes to him–

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you may resume your seat. I have heard your point of order.

Hon. Member, when all the hon. Members are in this House, they have a right to speak. Further, when the hon. Member raised his matter, I did not admit it. He was not specific and I even asked whether he had any evidence. The matter was not admitted and it ended there. If the matter was admitted, then, there was going to be something wrong. The fact is that the matter was not admitted. It was not accepted.

We make progress.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Madam First Deputy Speaker gave the floor to Mr Charles Mulenga.

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mkushi South, I did not give you the Floor, there is no need for shouting.

Hon. Minister of Education, you may proceed.

COMPLETION OF COPPERBELT UNIVERSITY STUDENTS’ HOSTELS

135. Mr Charles Mulenga (Kwacha) asked the Minister of Education:

1. when construction of the Copperbelt University (CBU) students’ hostels will be completed;

1. when the works will resume;

1. what the cause of the delay in completing the project is; and

1. what the cost of the outstanding works on the project is.

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the construction of the Copperbelt University (CBU) students’ hostels is planned for completion within the 2025-2027 Medium-Term Budget Framework. However, the engineer’s assessment estimates a completion period of twenty-four months contingent upon the availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, the works are set to resume in 2025.

Madam Speaker, the delay in completing the project is attributed to the financial constraints that were experienced by the ministry during project implementation.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, the cost of the outstanding works on the project will be determined upon completion of the needs assessment, which will guide the preparation of the Bills of Quantity (BoQs). However, Lot 1 out of the five lots, which has already been finalised and is pending contract signing, is estimated to cost K123,596,062.56.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There was an indication for a point of order.

Hon. Member for Mkushi South, you may proceed.

Interruptions

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, I need your protection.

Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 71. In 2023, we passed a Budget in the House and the hon. Minister stood on the Floor to say that every constituency would receive K30 million. What the people of Zambia know is that we have that money in our bank accounts in our respective constituencies. This is November and we are about to finish the year, yet Mkushi South Constituency has only received K10.4 million.

Mr Nkandu: You were giving us 1.6 million!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, for the past two months, we have made requests for payment of K13 million, and the hon. Minister who is seated on the Front Bench has deliberately ignored us and not given us the money. Is the hon. Minister in order to not give money to the people of Luano yet they are also taxpayers? He knows well that that is taxpayers' money, which we need.

Madam Speaker, I seek your ruling.

Ms Sefulo: Ah!

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mkushi South, you are out of order.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: That is an old matter. You should have found another platform to bring that matter to the House. Otherwise, it is not admissible.

We now move on to supplementary questions.

Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, you may proceed.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, thank you very much.

Madam Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister has informed the public that there is a needs assessment that is being undertaken and that a Bill of Quantity (BoQ) has to be developed for the hostels that are in Kitwe to be constructed.

Madam Speaker, I am assuming that the budget that has been set aside for that activity covers the University of Zambia (UNZA), the Copperbelt University (CBU) as well as other public institutions that have hostels. Is the hon. Minister able to inform the public how much has been set aside for that particular project under discussion today, which is the construction of CBU hostels? I want to find out from the hon. Minister how much has been set aside for the CBU hostels out of the amount that the ministry has allocated.

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, I said that there is only one lot for which we are going to sign a contract. Works on the other lots are still pending. Remember that works on those buildings stalled a long time ago and so the contracts came expired. We had to re-advertise the works for some of them. Further, among those who were building previously, we are bringing some back. So, they are re-assessing the works. For example, I will tell you that the same lot that is now costing K123 million was at K73 million previously. Over the years, some Government was not paying for it to be completed. So, for us to complete that lot, it will cost us that much.

Madam Speaker, the other four lots are still being assessed and some of them are waiting to be signed for after the Attorney-General gives us the go-ahead.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Charles Mulenga: Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister says that K123 million has been earmarked for the construction of student hostels at CBU under the 2025 National Budget, I am not so clear on whether we are certain that in 2025, the CBU hostels will be completed out of that budget-allocated figure. I say so because the accommodation crisis at the CBU has reached alarming levels such that majority of the students who are accommodated in hostels outside the university are at a high risk of being attacked by thugs, especially at night, as they walk back to their respective hostels to sleep. I just want to get it clearly from the hon. Minister. Out of the K123 million that has been earmarked for the construction of student hostels, are we certain that completion will actually be realised?

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, I said that the K123 million is just for one lot. Remember, I said that there are five lots. You may be aware that the lots are at different levels of completion. So, we cannot put it that the other four will be contained in that amount. After we have calculated the cost according to the levels of completion, obviously, they will differ, perhaps, some will cost K60 million and others K70 million depending on how far they are in construction. The K123 million is just for one lot. The figures for the other four are not yet in. So, they will have their own money allocated.

Madam Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member that, indeed, there is a dire need for accommodation. I can tell him that if the Patriotic Front (PF) Government had paid for the works, we would not have reached this far. In some cases, there has not even been a slab completed since 2015 at CBU. So, those are lots whose works have already begun. Some of them are not there in terms of progress. However, as usual, that is the way that Government used to behave everywhere, stalling projects sometimes for more than ten years.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, thank you for permitting me, on behalf of the people of Lubansenshi Constituency, to ask a supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, the question that was brought to the Floor by the hon. Member for Kwacha is very important. The hon. Minister will agree with me that we are looking at our future generations. Looking at the intention to construct more hostels for the students, one can see that it was to graduate from what is happening at present. We have situations in which one room is occupied by five to seven students while the Government just knows that in a particular room, there is only one student yet that person even charges fellow students for space and makes money out of it. That is an anomaly that needs to be corrected quickly.

Madam Speaker, since the Government is doing assessments and other things, what quick interventions is it putting in place to ensure that the issue of, maybe, five or six people squatting in one room comes to a stop?

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, we have no option but to hasten the construction of the student hostels rather than wait for seven years or ten years. So, within the 2025-2027 Budget Framework, we must hasten to complete them even before 2026. It is just a matter of being quick and not just waiting until the bills have accumulated to K123 million from K73 million, for example.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Charles Mulenga: Madam Speaker, the budgeted allocations in our country have been a challenge because of compounding needs against limited resources. Maybe, as a way to assist the Government, why can the ministry not lobby for assistance from other countries or reputable international organisations such as the Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA), which can be more than willing to assist the Government in that regard?

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, the Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA) is already doing many things to help us, not necessarily in building hostels. The hon. Member has also said that we can ask other countries. We shall try. If they agree, they agree. However, we must work within our resources. That is why I am saying that we have to hasten to do all those things so that we are not caught up in webs like this.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

UPGRADING SELECTED ROADS IN NYIMBA

136. Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

(a)     whether the Government has any plans to upgrade selected roads in Nyimba District to bituminous standard;

(b)     if so, when will the plans be implemented;

(c)     what the estimated cost of the project is;

(d)     how many kilometres of roads will be upgraded; and

(e)     if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, the Government, indeed, has plans to upgrade selected roads in Nyimba District to bituminous standard.

Madam Speaker, the plans will only be implemented when funds are available for that exercise.

Madam Speaker, the estimated cost for the project will only be established when the draft designs and Bills of Quantity (BoQs) are developed. Further, the number of kilometres of roads to be upgraded will also be known once the designs have been developed based on available funding.

Madam Speaker, as indicated in response to part (a) of the question above, the plans are there. Therefore, part (e) of the question falls off.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, in 2011 and 2012, there was an approved plan to construct 14 km of township roads in Nyimba District. The contractor mobilised equipment, and started gravelling works and coming up with–

Madam Speaker, I do not know what they call the works the contractor was carrying out but, nevertheless, the contractor did the gravelling and started backfilling the roads. After the demise of President Michael Chilufya Sata, the project stalled. It died with him. Today, there is nothing to call a road in Nyimba District. The question to the hon. Minister is coming from the fact that he understands a number of districts in this country. Looking at the issue of money not being available, which was available then, one would ask: Where did it go?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the question that the hon. Member has asked is: Where did the money go? He also laced his question with the fact that it appears that the project died with then-President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, may his soul rest in peace. I wish to inform the hon. Member that the demise of what he calls the project had no relation, whatsoever, to the loss of the Head of State. The two must not be clubbed together. The truth is that we are answering questions about the sins of the past Administration. Let me explain what I mean. In 2011, the Administration then, whose name you know, embarked on an unreasonable ambitious populist plan to impress the Zambian people. It signed contracts for constructing bituminous standard roads in nearly all the towns of this country, including Mazabuka where I am privileged to be a Member of Parliament. I am also fortunate to be the Minister in charge of the ministry that is responsible for township roads. I was in this House at the time the hon. Member is describing, and what was going on in Nyimba was the same in Mazabuka. The hon. Minister for the Southern Province then, went to commission the commencement of the 20 km road project in Mazabuka. There were big statements, big news, that were made. I can tell him now that many years later, not even a single kilometre of road in Mazabuka was done. At one point, around 2017, subject to correction, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, I cannot remember whether it was Hon Mutati, who is sitting next to me, or Hon. Margaret Mwanakatwe, made a statement to the effect that all the projects that the Government had embarked on that were below 80 per cent completion had to be stopped.

Hon. Member: Bwalya Ng’andu!

Mr Nkombo: Dr Bwalya Ng’andu? Thank you for that correction. So, we can walk together and the hon. Member can understand that the “death”, as he calls it, of the roads in Nyimba had nothing to do with the demise of our dear President Mr Michael Chilufya Sata.

Madam Speaker, after that big pronouncement, it goes without saying, the Government signed and committed contracts with everybody who was assigned to do those jobs. So, interest was running even after it stopped the works on the projects that were below 80 per cent completion. That was the beginning of trouble in the ministry that I am privileged to run. Since then, the contractors, most of whom were members of the same political party that I am referring to, started computing interest. Those interest rates are still sitting in our financials today. The fortunate thing is that there was an hon. Minister who realised that the direction that was taken was wrong and not sustainable. So, we have all suffered the peril of having had a promise–

Mr Kasandwe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

There is an indication for a point of order.

What is your point of order, hon. Member for Bangweulu?

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, the point of order is on the hon. Minister who is on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No. 71(1)(a), I quote:

“A Member who is debating shall confine his or her debate to the subject under discussion.”

Madam Speaker, the issue we are discussing is the question concerning the roads in Nyimba, but the hon. Minister has gone outside the boundaries by discussing the township roads in Mazabuka. Is he in order to divert from the question on the Floor and start discussing – (he paused)

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to move away from the question at hand and to begin raising an issue that is not being discussed at the moment?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I listened attentively to the hon. Minister. He mentioned Mazabuka as an example to say that it was not only Nyimba but also Mazabuka with the challenge.

Hon. Members, my guidance to you is that as we ask questions, let us be specific to the question on the Order Paper, otherwise, the hon. Minister will be forced to respond to the question that is raised. For example, the question that was raised was: Where did the money go? I also wondered which money was being referred to. So, in an effort to answer that question, the hon. Minister started by giving a background as to what happened. He mentioned the late President Chilufya Michael Sata. The hon. Minister was trying to answer the question as it was asked by the hon. Member for Nyimba. Therefore, as we ask supplementary questions, can we be mindful of the question that is on the Order Paper. The hon. Minister was answering the question that was raised by the hon. Member for Nyimba and he started explaining events from the death of President Michael Chilufya Sata. Can we restrict ourselves to the questions on the Order Paper.

Hon. Minister, please, wind up your response.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, in the manner that the hon. Member for Nyimba is concerned about roads in his constituency, he deserves a well-qualified and clear answer. Also, the hon. Colleague who raised the point of order needs to understand that it is normal for the guilty to be afraid.

Hon. PF Member: He cannot understand.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, those who caused the country that problem know themselves. That is why it is important that when an hon. Member like Hon. Menyani Zulu, who was not in Parliament at the time the–

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Hon. Minister, let us not debate ourselves. Just conclude your answer.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am still getting to respond to the question of where the money might have gone, as I terminate the answer. The hon. Member for Nyimba, who was not in this House at the time needs to understand exactly what happened lest I am accused of failing to answer a question. He terminated his question by asking, “Where did the money go?” I will come to that.

Madam Speaker, it is clear that the political party that was in Government at the time over-committed itself, …

Hon. UPND Member: Imagine aii!

Mr Nkombo: … and it did not respect the provisions of the Appropriation Bill, which is a law that was passed by this Government. It went ahead to subject the country to debt, which we, as the current Government, inherited. So, there was no money to begin with. It was just wishful thinking of a group of people that one can deem to be like cowboys who wanted to impress the country and even called it a construction site.

Madam First Deputy Speaker (Laughed): Order, hon. Minister!

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, can you withdraw the use of the word ‘cowboys’ and replace it with another word.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘cowboys’ and replace it with ‘overzealous populist leaders’. They kept saying that Zambia was a construction site. Today, the people of Nyimba have been denied a road because most of the money that the Government should have been using to construct those roads is still on the books as interest for people of their kind some of whom are in this House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kaumbwe, you may proceed.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Ms Sefulo: Ba former DC (District Commissioner), just wait. They will give you a chance for a point of order.

Interruptions

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to ask a supplementary question on the district roads situation in Nyimba District.

Madam Speaker, I just want to seek advice from the hon. Minister. The condition that the district roads are in is synonymous in most districts, that is in Nyimba, Petauke, Sinda, Mazabuka and everywhere else. Now that the Government has an opportunity to buy earth-moving equipment through the enhanced Constituency Development Fund (CDF), would it not be prudent for constituencies that are closer to one another, like Nyimba, Kaumbwe and Petauke Central, to team up to buy bituminous surface equipment like the asphalt paver and an asphalt plant that would service the district roads in upgrading them to bituminous standard?

Hon. Member: Excellent! Ema engineers aya. Mwali joba imwe.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Minister responds to the question, the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu has raised a point of order.

Hon. Member, you may proceed.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for permitting me to raise this very important point of order.

Madam Speaker, earlier, you guided the hon. Minister on the fact that we do not debate ourselves in this House. My point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 71. This is the fourth year of our hon. Colleagues being in the Government. Obviously, now people have got used to just waking up and only learning about one scandals after another.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, criminal scandals, …

Hon. PF Members: Like sakala nyongo.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: … and people are confessing and pointing at each other about where scandals are happening. The hon. Minister has repeatedly insinuated that there are some hon. Members in this House whom he suspects did wrong in the road sector under his ministry. I had the privilege of serving under that ministry. I would like to put that matter to rest. Is it not time that the hon. Minister laid on the Table of this august House the names of those he has been accusing for the past four years? Would it not be ideal that we put that matter to rest because innuendos have continued and this is the fourth year? Is the hon. Minister in order to continue pointing to that issue without coming to this august House with the list of those he suspects to have committed illegalities under his ministry?

Madam Speaker, I seek your ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you debated your point of order.

As already guided, hon. Members, we are not supposed to debate ourselves whether through a list, mentioning of names or any other form. As long as we are in this House, we are not supposed to debate ourselves.

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, I think, you can find another platform on which the hon. Minister can produce a list not in this House because we do not debate ourselves. So, that point of order is not admissible.

Hon. Minister, you may respond to the question asked by the hon. Member for Kaumbwe.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, indeed, certain matters need to be put to rest for good. That is the reason the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, who knows well that he is not one of those who were constructing roads because he was the hon. Minister, has raised that question. Sometimes, when one lives in a glass house, one should not throw stones.

Mr Kampyongo: You are seated with some.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, there are hon. Members of Parliament–

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, let us not debate ourselves.

You may continue.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam, I am just–

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu!

I have not given you the Floor.

Mr Kampyongo: I want to help him.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I appreciate everything. This is a House that is anchored on truth. There are hon. Members of Parliament for whom I have a great deal of respect, such as the hon. Member of Parliament for Mporokoso. He is seated there (pointed at Mr Mundubile). He publicly made a declaration in the House that he was one of the contractors, and he was one of the good contractors.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: However, there are others in this House whom, if I am dared one more time, ...

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: … I will go ahead and do it, but it is unfair like you have guided, Madam Speaker, for us to take that route.

Madam Speaker, I needed to say this because, at one point–

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu!

Mr Kampyongo: Tulepwishanya lelo!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, please, resume your seat.

Interruptions

Eng. Nzovu rose.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo remained upstanding.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, please, resume your seat.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: That is why debating ourselves is not allowed in the House.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members on my left!

We want to make progress.

Hon. Minister, you may continue as guided.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, thank you, once again. As guided, that matter will be put to rest, and it will be put to rest by me saying that when one makes one’s bed, one must be ready to sleep in it.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Kaumbwe raises an important and progressive question. This is the reason that this Government, led by Mr Hakainde Hichilema, decided to take the approach of local authorities buying equipment on their own. I take this moment to congratulate all the local authorities and hon. Members who heeded that advice. A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step. We have the equipment now. The President is on record here, in this House, congratulating three hon. Members; the hon. Member for Kankoyo, the hon. Member for Kantanshi and hon. Member for Mufulira, for working together. It is public information. I also give them accolades of co-operation. What the hon. Member is asking for is like banging on an open door. That is the way to go. I promise you that the way to go is for us, as local councils, to amalgamate resources to get the equipment that can spray asphalt or bitumen. So, I will take that question as a way of giving me the wisdom to pursue that route.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members should take examples from such an hon. Member to ask progressive questions. We can do it. Five constituencies can put resources together and give one another time, for example from one month to another, for the machinery to work in a particular constituency. Within two years, we would have tarred all our roads.

Madam Speaker, I congratulate the hon. Member for such a progressive question and I take my hat off to him.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The last hon. Member to ask a question is the hon. Member for Nyimba.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, despite all the things that are happening, permit me to thank the hon. Minister as instructed by the good people of Nyimba. The people are happy and worried, but happier, about the project that has started on the Great East Road to the district hospital. They are only worried that it might turn out to be like one of those projects that have not been completed in the district. They asked me to ask the hon. Minister to ensure that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning releases the money for that stretch to be completed.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kaumbwe has come up with a plan, which he told me about four days ago when we were in Nyimba. He has a brilliant plan, which the Government should listen to. He has a cheaper way of doing things in terms of road works. As advised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kaumbwe, Dr Mwanza, the last question I want to ask the Minister is: Is the Government in agreement with the proposal that has been made by the Kaumbwe Parliamentarian to the effect that districts that are closer to one another like Kaumbwe, Petauke Central, Nyimba and Lusangazi, they were part of one constituency previously, can put resources together to buy asphalt equipment so that we can start working without passing through lengthy procurement processes, which can take us two years, to construct roads cheaply?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member for Nyimba for the acknowledgement of the work that we are doing in his constituency despite the tough and tight fiscal space.

Madam Speaker, I am already sold on the idea that was proposed by the hon. Member for Kaumbwe. That is how easy it is to convince me. The moment he just pronounced it, I said that there goes a clever man giving the Government a check and balance. Buying asphalt equipment is an idea that has not crossed my mind, but there it is. What took us so long to find solutions? Even if as a province, the Eastern Province, for example, has twenty constituencies that decide to put money together to buy two pieces of asphalt equipment, we, as a ministry, will agree. We will not take a minute. The issue about procurement that the hon. Member raised is outside my ambit, but since we are one Government, we would ensure that it happens as soon as possible.

Madam Speaker, to just demonstrate how well we embrace big capital projects, the hon. Member should ask the hon. Member for Lukulu East, the hon. Member for Choma Central and the hon. Member for Mbabala. They recognised that the need in their constituencies was water. For the first time, the Constituency Development Fund Committee (CDFC) for Lukulu East bought a brand new water rig. So, the people in that constituency are just sinking boreholes anytime and anywhere they want. Let us take a leaf from such examples and make this country a better place to live in.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF MPANTA/KATANSHYA/KAPATA ROAD IN BANGWEULU

137. Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

1. when the construction of Mpanta/Katanshya/Kapata Road in Bangweulu Parliamentary Constituency will commence;

1. what the timeframe for the completion of the project is;

1. who the contractor for the project is; and

1. what the cost of the project is.

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Kapala) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), is, currently, undertaking maintenance works on the Mpanta/Katanshya/Kapata Road in Bangweulu Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the maintenance works are scheduled to be completed by 31^st December, 2024. The works are being carried out by the RDA under the Force Account.

Madam Speaker, the total cost of the project is estimated at K13,816,986.44.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has just informed the public that the road is being worked on by the Road Development Agency (RDA). He is 100 per cent aware that the RDA has no equipment. He has also made a commitment to the effect that by 31^st December, this year, the works will be completed. At present, there is no proper equipment on site. On behalf of the people of Bangweulu, I would like to know when the RDA will be helped with equipment to ensure that the road is done by the deadline that he has given to us. As far as I am concerned, the RDA does not have a single piece of equipment to work on that road.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, in construction, one does not really need to own any equipment. One can always hire equipment. I suspect that the RDA will be able to hire the equipment and complete the works as specified in my statement.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, the hiring of equipment is what the RDA has been grappling with for the past four years. I have been to the RDA offices many times, especially their regional office in Luapula Province. It complains that it does not have equipment. Even when it pushes in a request to hire equipment, the process takes a lot of time. For instance, the request to hire equipment was filed in May but, to date, the approval has not been granted. So, I just want the hon. Minister to be honest and to tell us if at all the Government is going to work on that road or not.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member seems to know what is happening. However, I have given a Government assurance that the road will be completed this December, next month.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, the Acting hon. Minister is a befitting one. This is an industry that he knows well because he has also been a contractor before.

Laughter

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, while the hon. Minister may know the capacity of the Road Development Agency (RDA) to undertake any major rehabilitation works, is it not ideal to get a contractor to work on that stretch of the road instead of depending on the agency to hire equipment? In fact, I am happy that we are now settling the matter concerning who has done what in the construction sector, as the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development belaboured (pointed in Mr Nkombo’s direction).

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is the question?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I can count and I will help the hon. Minister with the list of contractors who were successful and who were not, starting from the far left.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, please, ask your question.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister why the Government cannot just contract a company to work on that stretch instead of depending on the RDA.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Minister responds to the question, there is an indication for a point of order.

Hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, you may proceed.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, as you may have seen, I was just seated quietly and decently minding my own business listening to the deliberations of Parliament when the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, who was pointing a finger at me–

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: His finger was pointing at me.

Madam Speaker, is he in order to bring me into his argument and even use his finger? We are told that even among peers or age mates one does not point at them later on adults like me. Is he in order to bring me into his debate using his mouth and his finger when I am seated quietly as a polite and attentive Member of Parliament and Minister? Is that colleague (pointed at Mr Kampyongo), the hon. Member, who was pointing a finger at me in order to carry on that way?

Hon. Opposition Members: He is also pointing.

Mr Nkombo: Is it possible to ask him to withdraw that finger before you make a ruling, Madam Speaker?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you cite the Standing Order, hon. Minister.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker– (the hon. Minister started looking for his Standing Orders)

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Just a minute, Madam Speaker. I have been here, in this House, long enough.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Okay.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the point of order that I have raised is in relation to the conduct of an hon. Member and–

One minute, Madam Speaker. Since I have been challenged to cite it, let me go to the index of this book, which I religiously keep.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, it reads as follows:

“Content of Speech­”

Madam Speaker, Order No. 7, which actually speaks to Order No. 71(2)(a) reads:

“A Member who is debating shall not–

(a) impute any improper motives –”

Madam Speaker, I beg your pardon. This Order is on the President. It is supposed to be Order No.71(1)(a). It reads:

 “A Member who is debating shall –

(a) confine his or her debate to the subject under discussion.”

There I was, Madam Speaker, seated alone. I am not under discussion, then, the hon. Member decides to drag me into his debate using his finger. Is it possible to ask him to first withdraw that finger as it is a sign of disrespect before you make your ruling?

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Well, according to the Standing Orders, you have failed to cite the correct Order. However, culturally, maybe, one can say that we do not point figures at each other.

That is the reason, hon. Members, each time you are debating or asking a question, you face the Presiding Officer instead of facing other hon. Members. You address your debate or question to the Presiding Officer. In that manner, I do not think that that issue would have occurred, that is, a situation in which the hon. Member pointed fingers and, in turn, the hon. Minister pointed five fingers.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: That was on a lighter note.

Let us make progress.

The guidance is that whenever you are speaking, hon. Members, speak through the Chair or Presiding Officer.

Acting hon. Minister, you may proceed.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I do not understand why we should start debating whether the RDA is going to hire a contractor or the equipment. The fact of the matter is that the road will be worked on by next month. I have information that 60 km of the road has already been done.

Mr Kasandwe: Question!

Mr Kapala: So, it is a question of the 12 km or so that is remaining that will be worked on, and it should not be a problem.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kasandwe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: That is an assurance made to the hon. Member for Bangweulu.

Wait for December, hon. Member.

Order!

–––––––

MOTION

ENHANCE THE REGULATION OF ONLINE GAMBLING

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to enhance the regulation of online gambling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr B. Mpundu: Bakamileka abaiche imwe?

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to address this House on a matter that demands our immediate attention. Gambling, particularly its unregulated online form, is silently devasting families and futures across Zambia. Gambling, in its traditional form, has long been part of our society. However, its unchecked nature often leads to tragic consequences. Many families in our nation can recount tales about loved ones who have lost their livelihoods, property and even their lives to gambling addiction. Today, this issue has taken a new and more insidious form through online gambling, which is pervasive, accessible and unregulated.

Madam Speaker, let me illustrate this crisis with the story of Grace Phiri. Grace is a twenty-year-old college student of Lusaka who was raised by her mother, Mary Phiri, a seamstress who worked tirelessly to support her daughter's education after her family’s finances were ruined by gambling. Grace’s father, David Phiri, was a career economist, a man of great promise, but he struggled with a gambling addiction. His compulsive tendency to bet on sports and lotteries drained the family’s savings, cost him his job and led to the loss of his family’s home. Unable to bear the shame and despair, David tragically took his own life. Mary, left to pick up the pieces, vowed to protect Grace from the pain that gambling had caused their family.

Madam Speaker, years later, the menace of gambling found Grace in a different form. As a first-year student, Grace was introduced to online gambling through flashy advertisements promising free bets and instant riches. Initially, it was a way to make quick money to ease her mother’s burden. However, like her father, Grace found herself trapped. What began as small bets quickly spiralled into larger ones as she tried to recover her losses. To fund her addiction, Grace diverted her meal allowance, borrowed money from friends and, finally, gambled her way through her tuition fees. When the debt became overwhelming, Grace dropped out of school. Today, she is battling depression, joblessness and a cycle of despair similar to that of her father.

Madam Speaker, online gambling offers many opportunities for criminal entrepreneurs to engage in fraud, theft, extortion and money laundering on and around gambling sites. The large amounts of electronic cash (e-Cash) that circulate on online gambling sites provide significant rewards for the dishonest. For example, in Ontario, Canada, a Toronto-based company provided software to online casinos. In 2001, hackers exploited the vulnerability of the company’s software to alter the outcome of casino games operated by licensees. The manipulation allowed approximately 140 gamblers to collectively win over US$1.9 million in just a few hours.

Madam Speaker, research done in East Africa revealed that the most prevalent reason that was reported for suicides among male university students aged between twenty years and forty years was the loss of their tuition fees through gambling. Considering an example closer to home, in July 2024, a male Zambian university student who was allegedly reported to have been abducted and that his abductors were demanding a ransom from his parents for his release later came to reveal that the abduction was orchestrated to extort money from his parents after he had squandered the funds that he had through betting on his smartphone.

Madam Speaker, Grace’s story is not an anomaly. It is a chilling example of how unregulated gambling, particularly online gambling, destroys lives. The anonymity, accessibility and aggressive –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The consultations are too loud, especially in the corner where the hon. Member for Nkana is seated. If you want to caucus, please, just walk out. Hon. Member for Nkana, I think, I am addressing you.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, it is that hon. Minister (pointed at the Government Bench) and Mr Mtolo.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we lower our voices? We are not the only ones who are listening to the debate being presented by the hon. Member for Kanchibiya. Let us give him a chance to debate.

Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, you may continue.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I said that anonymity, accessibility and aggressive marketing by online gambling platforms make them more dangerous.

Madam Speaker, regulation is not about banning gambling, it is about protecting citizens like Grace and her family from the devasting effects. To that effect, we propose the following measures:

1. strict licencing requirements. Ensuring that all gambling operators, especially online platforms, are licenced with strict enforcement for fair practice and transparency. At the moment, different types of gambling are licenced by different ministries; the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Ministry of Tourism. On that score, we are calling for regulation through a centralised regulatory authority to regulate all forms of gambling;

1. age verification. We wish to propose that the Government implements robust systems to verify the age of users, therefore, preventing minors from accessing gambling platforms;

1. spending limits. The Government should introduce caps on how much individuals can bet or lose in a given period to prevent financial ruin;

1. awareness campaigns. Launch national campaigns to educate citizens, especially young people, on the risks of gambling addiction; and

1. taxation and allocation. We are proposing that we impose further taxes, we know that there are taxes already, on gambling operators and allocate the revenue to social programmes, which include mental health services and youth empowerment activities.

Madam Speaker, there is also a need to establish accessible support systems for those struggling with gambling addiction such as counselling and rehabilitation. In terms of the socio-economic benefits, regulating online gambling will not only protect families, but generate revenue for critical national projects. A portion of that revenue can be channelled into education, healthcare and youth programmes, thereby, creating opportunities for the most vulnerable.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to say that Grace’s story should be a wake-up call for all of us. Gambling destroyed her father’s life and is now threatening hers. If we fail to act, we will see more lives ruined by this unchecked menace. Regulation is not just a matter of policy, it is a moral obligation. I urge this House to stand for families like the Phiris to ensure that no child loses their future to gambling addiction.

Madam Speaker, let us not allow a repetition of the stories of Grace and David Phiri in other homes across Zambia. I urge the hon. Members of this House to support this Motion to regulate online gambling and protect the lives, dreams and future of our citizens.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Kang’ombe: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, allow me to thank your office for allowing this public conversation to be brought to Parliament. I am calling it a public conversation because the topic that we are discussing relates to the future of our country and how we can secure that future. I also thank the mover of the Motion.

I want to indicate from the outset, Madam Speaker, that one of our responsibilities, as Parliament, is to simplify the conversations that take place in this august House so that as the people follow the proceedings, they can relate to what we discuss. I will try as much as possible to help this conversation by simplifying the angle that I feel needs urgent attention as far as online gambling is concerned. Firstly, it is important that people understand the process that companies have to go through before they register an online gambling business in Zambia. If a foreign company wants to register its business in Zambia, the first point of contact, obviously, is the Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA). The second stage would be to go to the Betting Control and Licensing Board. In Zambia, that is the agency that gives one a licence if one wants to start an online gambling business. So, in stage two, one gets a licence. In stage three is when that business has to identify which district it is going to operate from. Is it going to operate from Kitwe or Lusaka? So, there will be a requirement to go to the local authority. So, one registers a company, gets a licence to run a gambling business and then goes to the local authority to get a business permit. Now, in that whole process, we seem to have challenges, and that is why I was interested in contributing to this debate. It appears that despite getting a licence or despite a business operating online gambling in a particular area, we have a problem. People as young as thirteen years old engage in gambling. The answer to the question that I am asking myself, as a Member of Parliament, is that gambling is a business from which the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) needs to collect a tax. So, there is no debate about whether we should allow gambling as a business in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the laws of Zambia allow gambling. So, I want this conversation to be clear. The proposal is not asking that we ban the business called online gambling. My understanding and submission are that if one is able to get a business licence or authority from a local authority to undertake the business, I ask myself why young people at the age of ten, eleven or twelve, as long they have a phone, should have access to all the online gambling platforms. We will fail this country if we do not discuss this issue and propose what should be done to ensure that we protect our people.

May Speaker, I want to emphasise something very important. In 2021, this Parliament passed a law. There is a law in Zambia called the Betting Control (Amendment) Act No. 50 of 2021. The law under Section 22 is clear. If one is below the age of eighteen, one cannot engage in gambling. That is what the law says. So, I have one issue with this particular subject, which is those who are engaging in under age gambling. Why should a ten-year-old visit a betting platform quickly? Just by opening a platform, one can bet easily. It is very easy despite the law stating that only those who are eighteen years and above can bet.

Madam Speaker, the online platforms do not have any security measures that can prevent young people from gambling on their sites. As I am standing on the Floor, I want to emphasise that the ZRA needs taxes. Gambling is a business, PACRA registers the businesses, but why should we allow young people to participate? Why should there be no control measures in place? Why should a business register in Kitwe to offer gambling services? Young people walk into shops to gamble. Apart from online gambling, one can actually engage in manual gambling as well. All one needs is a book that shows the games that are taking place, for example, the number of games taking place in Europe at a time. Even if one is ten years old, there is no control of what is currently in place.

My submission, Madam Speaker, is that while we believe in people earning income in Zambia, I have no problem with responsible people who earn an income. I have a problem with the fact that as long as one has a gadget or can walk into any shop that is branded as a betting company, one can engage in gambling.

Madam Speaker, we need to do something. Are we saying that we should do away with gambling as a business? That is not what the people of Kamfinsa are saying. On behalf of the people of Kamfinsa, I am saying that this is a source of revenue for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. We collect taxes. I know that the law was amended recently to allow for the collection of taxes from people who engage in gambling. However, the question is whether people are engaging in gambling in a responsible manner. How do we ensure that as our young children are growing up, especially those we give gadgets to–

Madam Speaker, I know that many parents allow their children to have gadgets. What are we doing to prevent those young people from accessing online platforms to participate in betting? The 1957 Betting Control Act of the laws of Zambia was amended by this Parliament in 1989 to introduce a provision that requires one has to be eighteen years old to engage in betting, and it was later amended in 2021.

Madam Speaker, I would be failing in my duties if I did not put this on record. We are not suggesting that gambling be suspended. What I am proposing and supporting today is the fact that we need to put measures in place that allow responsible gambling. We cannot have our children as young as ten years old participating in what is called online gambling. We need to put measures in place. I will be a proud hon. Member of Parliament if this august House supports that thought to put regulations in place.

Madam Speaker, may I conclude by stating that the law that I have quoted under Section 28 of the Act empowers the hon. Minister to come up with those regulations. I am confident that after this discussion, debate on how best we can implement this proposal will ensue.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Kabwe Central, to add a voice to the debate on the Motion that is on the Floor.

From the outset, I want to say that I am in support of the Motion because, indeed, it is long overdue. Betting comes in many forms. Of course, there are commercial types of betting like lotteries, from which the Government needs to collect revenue. However, because there are no controls, the Government loses a lot of revenue in terms of taxes. So, we need to come up with regulations that will ensure that there is no tax evasion.

Madam Speaker, while we may want to restrict ourselves to online betting, there are also manual types of betting like bonanza machines, which are under the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. That vice has psychological and emotional effects on our children. We have seen young children participate in betting by playing the bonanza machines instead of going to school and concentrating in class. They even knock off early so that they can participate in such activities, which are not good for them. We need to ensure that we come up with regulations. As we may have already heard, there is a law already in place that does not allow young children to engage in betting. However, we need to reinforce the laws that will punish people who allow children to participate if they are found wanting.

Madam Speaker, I am a woman. I have heard stories about men who put up their women as stacks for betting. That is not right. A human being has no value that can be attached to putting up a woman on the table for one to say that if one does not win, then, one’s woman will be got. So, we want to come up with regulations and put up strict punishment for anyone who puts a human being on the table as one bets.

Madam Speaker, I thought I should add a voice to the debate to say that I support the Motion. The Motion is self-explanatory. It is high time we came up with regulations. I think that the mover and seconder of the Motion have sufficiently given us the ideas behind this Motion. It is not to kill the industry, but to ensure that we put regulations in place that will control betting activities.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. You are very economical with time.

Hon. Member for Nkana, you may proceed.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to also add a voice to the debate on this Motion, which has been moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya Constituency, who is calling for the enhancement of the regulations of online gambling.

Madam Speaker, I want to start by apologising to my dear brother, Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, because for the very first time, I may seem to go against his line of thought though I agree with the line he has taken to some extent. I also want to apologise to Hon. Sunday Chanda because, unfortunately, I will not be supporting this Motion.

Madam Speaker, Hon. Sunday Chanda is calling for the enhancement of the regulations that govern online gambling. Obviously, enhancing refers to intensifying. We want to put stringent measures on the already existing regulations. Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe has highlighted the number of regulations that are already in place dating as far back as the 1980s when the law that regulates gambling was first enacted. I was trying to understand because the mover and the seconder of the Motion lost me at some point. I like the thoughts that Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe shared. He emphasised regulating the age at which the Zambian people can be involved in gambling. I would have thought that this Motion would be couched to pinpoint the fear of the fact that young people below the age of eighteen are involved in gambling. However, the Motion is open-ended. It is asking for over-regulation. This country already has laws that regulate online gambling. It is not like we are starting from nowhere.

Madam Speaker, the question we may be asking today is: What is the mover’s intention with this request? What is he trying to cure? Is it the aspect that Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe brought up, particularly the issue of young people being involved or it is the aspect that the mover brought up? If one followed the mover’s debate, one could tell that he was worried. In fact, he was suggesting that we go as far as capping how much people can earn from betting. I think that is very sad.

Madam Speaker, betting is, basically, a game of chance in which one earns some income.

Mr Amutike: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mongu Central, is that an indication for a point of order?

Mr Amutike: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me a chance to raise a point of order on behalf of the good people of Mongu Central.

Madam Speaker, I think that the debater who is on the Floor of the House is not only misleading himself but the House and the nation, at large, as well as the whole Southern African Development Community (SADC) region. The hon. Member is well aware that the legislation, which Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, who was seconding the Motion, and Hon. Chanda, the mover of this Motion, mentioned was enacted as far back as the early 1990s or late 1980s when there was no Internet or online gambling. Is he in order to start talking about the legislation that is in place, currently, which regulates online gambling when he is aware that in 1981 there was no Internet and online gambling?

Madam Speaker, I seek your ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Just take note that the hon. Ministers are going to respond to the debate on the Motion. I have also seen that you have indicated to debate, hon. Member. So, I will accord you an opportunity to give us your views.

Hon. Member for Nkana, you may continue.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, it is important for people to not speak for the sake of just speaking.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Nkana, just continue with your debate.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I am not speaking for the sake of speaking. I am speaking to the facts. The law was first enacted in the 1980s and amended in 2021. I do not know where the hon. Member for Mongu Central is coming from because social media was in existence in 2021. There is already a law. That must be put on record. The law presently, including the Betting Control Board, already regulates online gambling. Hon. Sunday Chanda is suggesting that we enhance the existing law. The Motion is explicit. It is calling for the enhancement of the existing law.

Sir, there is already a law. The mover is only asking for the enhancement of that law. Enhancement simply means to strengthen or improve–

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Please, address me not the hon. Member for Mongu Central. 

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, the reasons I am against this Motion is that, firstly, gambling is simply a business. Anyone of us can gamble to earn money. If we are concerned about the age restrictions, then, that is another subject, and I would have liked the mover of the Motion to couch it in such a way that states that ours is the interest to regulate those who are underage. The mover of the Motion has conflicted himself by proposing that we put a limit in the law as to how much can be betted or earned. Can you imagine going into business and regulating how much people can make from that business? Why do people gamble? The first understanding is that gambling is a business of chance. One predicts that Nkana Football Club, for example, is going to beat Power Dynamos Football Club in a soccer match, and one earns some money out of it.

Mr Amutike: Question!

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, is he hallucinating or he was sleeping?

I forgive you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue, hon. Member.

Madam Speaker, let us look at the prevailing situation. Young people in Zambia are roaming the streets without job opportunities. The animal called unemployment is haunting the New Dawn Government. Young people are in destitution, …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr B. Mpundu: … they leave tertiary institutions, yet there is nowhere for them to get employment. The reason people are resorting to gambling is that this Government has failed to create employment opportunities for them. I want to put it on record that it is not just the young, it also includes some who are here, in this House. They bet online. Many people are betting and they are earning revenue. Some people work for peanuts compared with the cost of living. Do you know what gambling does? It enhances their income because we are living in tough times. The proposition is about taking a little fall-back. Gambling has become a fall-back for many Zambian people. I am not just talking about young people, but adults too.

Madam Speaker, there is already a law in place. The proposition is that we should over-regulate. I refuse to be part of a grouping of people that has decided to take away the little fall-back that is for the Zambian people. The law already exists and it is enough to regulate online gambling. As people in this House, we must focus on creating opportunities not taking them away from the young people. If you enhance or over-regulate gambling, you are taking away the little fall-back from the young people we have not provided means of livelihood for.

Madam Speaker, I want to put it categorically that I refuse to be a part of those people who are going to take away the little that the young people are surviving on.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity –

Mr Menyani Zulu: Mufuna bana bazichoka ku sikulu baziyenda ku betting?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Nyimba, you have not been given the Floor.

Hon. Members: Send him out!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue, hon. Member for Mwandi.

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion that is on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, let me start by saying that I am in full support of this Motion. Let me also thank Hon. Sunday Chanda for bringing this progressive Motion to this House. I also thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa for seconding the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I will give the reasons I support this Motion. Before I proceed, let me say that I think, sometimes, it is important for us, as Parliamentarians, to consider the implications and importance of certain Motions as they come to this House. We should not trivialise them. I speak today not because I am a Parliamentarian, but because I am also a mother. I know what online gambling has done to our children. I also know that, currently, Zambia has 40 per cent penetration of the Internet. What does that mean? Our children’s fall-back should not be betting. As a country, we cannot build a country whose fall-back is betting. When it comes to online betting, a child who is young and has access to a cellular phone can bet because there is no regulation or we have not tightened the regulation concerning betting. Looking at the law, one can see that there is no mention of online betting. It addresses the other types that we find. If one goes to every small shop in society, one will find a gambling machine, which has no age restriction as to whether a child can bet or not. I want to take a leaf from what the mover said. Children are taken to universities and they are given school fees. There is no regulation that governs betting. A child as young as sixteen years old or seventeen years old can use their money for betting because that child wants to multiply the money quickly. Let me also borrow what our colleagues say, that is, haraka haraka, hyinabaraka, which means that things that are done in a hurry usually do not have a blessing. If one wants to multiply one’s money quickly, it will not have a blessing. The Motion does not say that we should ban betting. It is saying that we should regulate it. I think that is important because as one browses on the Internet, regardless of one’s age, one can bet.

Madam Speaker, coming back to the issue of our children looking at gambling as a way of surviving, I would like to say that I have had the privilege of going to other countries and seeing how much value addition they have. We have many opportunities in this country that we have not considered. Currently, there is a discussion that we are having regarding value addition. For example, in places like where the hon. Member for Nkana is from, they have resources that they actually throw out. When I travel with the hon. Member, he is the first to buy the product of that value addition being created by children in other countries. My expectation is that we should promote things that are sustainable and teach our children hard work rather than teaching our children that gambling is okay at an early age.

Madam Speaker, you should also understand that gambling is addictive. Like the hon. Member said, there are people in this House who still indulge in gambling. I suspect that he could be one of them from what he was saying.

Hon. B. Mpundu interjected.

Laughter

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, gambling is addictive. If it is not regulated, and our children are introduced to it, we will have children who will grow up already addicted to it at an early age. In the same way that we control the things our children are exposed to and have agreed that children should not drink alcohol or smoke before a certain age is the same way we should act when it comes to gambling.

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Sefulo: Mr “Can you remember”.

Laughter

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, surely, can she be calling me that?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I did not get that.

Continue with your point of order.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, that is why last time, I wanted to lay her on the Table there (pointed at the Table where the Clerks sit).

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your point of order, hon. Member?

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the two hon. Ministers seated behind, at the Backbench (pointed at Mr Kapala and Eng. Nzovu).

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I am a law-abiding hon. Member of this House. I know that there are seats where hon. Ministers are supposed to sit, which is the Front Bench. As of this afternoon, I have not heard any re-shuffles to earn the two hon. Ministers that bench. Are they in order to sit comfortably in the back pretending to be backbenchers, when they are not, and we need them in the front to answer to the issues that we are raising on the Floor?

Madam Speaker, I need your ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I do not know whether the hon. Ministers were conversing with a Backbencher. I see no backbencher with them.

Hon. Ministers, unless you are consulting with the backbenchers, please, find your way to the front.

Mr Kapala and Eng. Nzovu walked back to their seats.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwandi, you may proceed.

Hon. Member interjected.

Ms Sefulo: Exactly. He has been instructed to resume his seat. That is where it was coming from, but we will respect what the Hon. Speaker has said.

Madam Speaker, as I was saying, there are many things that we regulate in this country because we do not want our children to get addicted. They are not yet mature enough to handle certain things. When it comes to betting, the same way that we control alcohol and smoking in the country, as much as we do not say that we should ban them, by not allowing children who are below eighteen years to indulge in those vices is the same way we should treat gambling. There are certain restrictions that we have put in place to ensure a safe space. Remember this is also linked to education. These days, our children have computer tablets and they use e-learning platforms. Many opportunities exist for our children to learn online. However, there is also the temptation that comes to engage in betting.

Madam Speaker, we should not just end at regulating online betting, we should also look at the Act so that we can modify it. I think that the law that we have on betting is archaic. When one goes to most home shops, one finds gadgets that children use to bet and there is no age restriction. So, I am saying that we should look at the Act and ensure that we put restrictions that will protect the children of this country.

Madam Speaker, with that being said, I support the Motion. In addition, we should not just end at regulating online betting, we should also look at the people who run casinos. Let us also ensure that we look into those and strengthen the law. I am not saying this because we want to take income away from the Government. We know that it is a source of Government income as well, but we cannot just look at the income without looking at the children we have in our houses and the youths we want to protect. As I earlier said, gambling is addictive. We, therefore, should put measures in place to ensure that our children are protected for the future and also encourage hard work as opposed to betting.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will get the last voice from the Patriotic Front (PF).

Hon. Member for Mpika, you may proceed.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity you have given to me to add my voice to the debate on this very important subject.

Madam Speaker, as a nation, we have sufficient laws that govern online betting. One of them is the Betting Control (Amendment) Act, which replaced the original Act of 1957. The Act provides for a regulatory framework that is enough. When we decide to deal with the issue of online betting, firstly, we have to deal with the root cause. One cannot treat a cancer patient using panadol, one would just be relieving the pain. Treatment has to be radiotherapy and chemotherapy. In this case, if we have to deal with online gambling, we must first deal with unemployment. Currently, our youths are confronted with unemployment and a lack of job opportunities. The unemployment rate is at 12 per cent. The Government must first create jobs for our youths. That will deter them from engaging in online betting.

Interruptions

Ms Sefulo interjected.

Mr Kapyanga: Her face looks like she is constipated, Madam Speaker. (Referred to Ms Sefulo)

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, that is an insult. Can you withdraw and apologise.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I withdraw and apologise to my hon. Colleague. However, let her also know that we are in this House for serious business.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

You are not apologetic because of the statement that have you added.

Mr Kapyanga: I have apologised, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We are all in the House to represent our people. Whether one is laughing, smiling or gloomy, we are representing our people.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Resume your seat, hon. Member for Mpika.

Hon. Minister of Tourism, you may proceed.

The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba): Madam Speaker, if you allow me to just compose myself as I am a bit disturbed.

Madam Speaker, thank you for granting me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Private Member’s Motion, which urges this House to Enhance Regulation of Online Gambling moved by Mr Sunday Chanda, hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Members who have so far debated, and I wish that my hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning could wind up the debate for both sides of the House.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Tourism is mandated, through Gazette Notice No. 7039 of 2021, to regulate casinos and register hotel managers. In that regard, casinos and accommodation establishments are required to be compliant through the payment of casinos and managers' registration fees, a vital source of revenue for our Treasury.

Madam Speaker, in the recent past, the country has seen a rise in the incorporation of gambling entities while the policy and regulatory framework for the gambling industry has remained stagnant making it unresponsive to the regulatory needs of the emerging online gambling platforms. As at end of September 2024, there were eighty-five registered casinos comprising forty land-based casinos with over 700 employees and forty-five online casinos with slightly above 200 employees. The unanticipated dynamics brought about by advancements in technology and the increase in the number of operators have called for a robust and effective policy and legislative framework in the gambling industry. The current regulatory framework has evident weaknesses and loopholes as it does not take into account the emergent online gambling platforms brought about by the transition in Zambia’s economic and technological landscapes. The absence of effective policy and legislative framework is what has made the gambling and online gambling industry, in particular, a menace to society and Zambia, as a whole.

Madam Speaker, I just want to mention that the gambling industry is, currently, regulated by six fragmented pieces of legislation falling under different ministries, which are the Ministry of Tourism, Ministry of Finance and National Planning, and the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. The different pieces of legislation that we have are as follows:

1. The Lotteries Act of 1994;

1. The State Lotteries Act of 1994;

1. The Pools Act of 1994;

1. The Gaming Machines (Prohibition) Act of 1994;

1. The Betting Control Act of 1994; and

1. The Tourism and Hospitality Act of 2015.

Madam Speaker, the solution to the social ills presented by the online gambling industry lies in the provision of a harmonised policy and regulatory framework. Despite its contribution to the Treasury, the Government acknowledges the social ills posed by the regulatory gaps associated with the industry. In some instances, that has led to social problems, especially in situations in which addiction to the vice is concerned, including family breakdowns, loss of property and what we tend to not pay attention to; mental health. It is envisaged that the full resolution of regulatory challenges of online gambling shall be met by ushering in an effective institutional framework for regulating the industry.

Madam Speaker, let me conclude my debate by indicating that the Government is in support of this Private Member’s Motion that has been brought to the Floor of the House. In that regard, the ministry will collaborate with the relevant stakeholders to establish an effective regulatory and institutional framework that facilitates responsible gambling. The revised regulatory framework is set to protect citizens from irresponsible gambling. A team of experts from key institutions, as I mentioned earlier, has been constituted to facilitate the review of the regulatory framework governing the Gaming and Lotteries Act and that speaks to what we, in the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, are striving to achieve in terms of reducing the cost of doing business and, indeed, collapsing the multiplicity of licences that we have which you may have heard before, we inherited from the previous regime. This House will be kept informed on the progress that will be made with regard to making it easier for us to realise revenue for gambling and ensuring that responsible gambling is taking place in our country. We will have the matter attended to by our ministry with priority.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Halwiindi: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order.

Madam Speaker, during this time when we are observing the Sixteen Days of Activism Against Gender-Based Violence (GBV) campaign, a time when the whole world is looking at how women are handled in terms of gender equality and parity, today and yesterday, an hon. Member of Parliament uttered inflammatory words to a female hon. Member of Parliament. Imagine that he described her using words that are offensive. As women, we are disheartened by the words that came from the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika. This is a House of laws. We feel that the punishment that was given to the hon. Member by way of asking him to withdraw the words that he used and to apologise is not enough, not during this time. Such situations are the reason we do not have many women in Parliament. We are injured emotionally and psychologically just by such words. One does not know how far those words have gone in her mind. 

Madam Speaker, just telling him to apologise or to withdraw the words is not enough for us. We have been insulted and we want a serious ruling. Is the Parliament in order to keep quiet? As women, we should have walked out of the Assembly Chamber because of the words that the hon. Member said. We are angry about what he has said to our fellow woman.

Madam Speaker, I need your ruling.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kabwe Central–

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, the point of order is premised on Standing Order No. 72.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I rendered a ruling. I instructed the hon. Member for Mpika to withdraw the words and to apologise. Following that, I did not allow him to continue with his debate.

Maybe, let me give some guidance. This applies to all the hon. Members. Let us respect the women in this House. Let us not use unparliamentary words in the House.

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, can you give me the opportunity to give the guidance.

Hon. Members, can we be mindful of the words that we use. We are all adults here, in this House. We are leaders and we represent thousands of people. If the people hear the words that are said by some hon. Members, they will wonder because we have women even in the constituencies. So, please, let us be mindful of the words that we use, especially against women. The hon. Member for Mpika was told to apologise and he withdrew the word. There is also something that we are working on, as an office, to deal with him because we have seen–

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

‘Dealing’ does not mean punishing the hon. Member. Sometimes, it just means talking one-on-one.

We make progress.

Please, observe my guidance. Let us respect the women in this House and the women outside the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Mayo, muli bafyashi!

Mr Kafwaya: Ema Speaker!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We make progress.

Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, wind up the debate.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the Executive for unanimously supporting this Motion. Allow me to also thank the hon. Member for Kamfinsa for agreeing to second this important Motion on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa. I also thank the hon. Member for Kabwe Central for debating in support of this Motion on behalf of the people of Kabwe Central, and to say that we, as Kanchibiya Constituency, identify with the challenges created by bonanza machines. They are a menace that we need to look into. The call for comprehensive regulation is welcome. I also thank the hon. Member for Nkana who debated on behalf of the people of Nkana in opposition to the Motion. It is called democracy, and holding divergent views is a factor of it. In the contestation of ideas, the best ones will carry the day.

Madam Speaker, in our submissions, we called for age verification, and that remains on record. Allow me to thank the hon. Member for Mwandi for supporting this Motion on behalf of the people of Mwandi Constituency. I sincerely apologise to her in any way that she could have been offended on the premise of this Motion. The need for us to go beyond online betting to other forms of gambling is a clarion call that was made. I further thank the hon. Member for Mpika for debating in opposition as well.

Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the hon. Minister of Tourism for the magnanimity in supporting this important Motion. Just as I wind up, allow me to refer to the brief civics that I learnt. The onus to create jobs is not just on the Executive, it is also on the Government. The Government in that regard speaks to the three Arms, which are the Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary. The Executive has a duty to ensure that it works on the policies et cetera. We, as a House of solutions, have a duty to ensure that we drive an agenda and bring progressive Motions to the Floor, such as enhancing the sort of regulation we are talking about, not to take away jobs, but to create quality jobs. If we are going to replace quality jobs with betting, then, we are condemning our society and the future of this nation to become a nation of crookedness and we will be unable to deal with the challenges that we are going to face in the days that lay ahead.

Madam Speaker, let me not waste any time. I just want to say that I, on behalf of the people of Kanchibiya, remain ever grateful for the wisdom of the hon. Members of this House who are on both sides of the aisle.

Madam Speaker, I thank you. 

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE ZAMBIAN DELEGATION TO THE 53^rd COMMONWEALTH PARLIAMENTARY ASSOCIATION AFRICA REGIONAL (CPA-AR) CONFERENCE AND ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING (AGM)

Mrs Munashabantu (Mapatizya): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Zambian Delegation to the 53^rd Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Africa Regional (CPA-AR) Conference and Annual General Meeting (AGM) held in Arusha, Tanzania, from 29^th September, 2024, to the 6^th October, 2024, for the Fourth Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 31^st October, 2024.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mrs Munashabantu: Madam Speaker, this report is presented to the House pursuant to Order No.154 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 until 1700 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Ms Munashabantu: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I had just started presenting the Motion.

Madam Speaker, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker led the Zambian Delegation to the 53^rd CPA-AR Conference and AGM held in Arusha, Tanzania, from 29^th September, 2024, to 6^th October, 2024. Since the report was tabled on 31^st October, 2024, I am sure that my hon. Colleagues have had the opportunity to familiarise themselves with its contents. Allow me, therefore, to highlight only its salient points.

Madam Speaker, the 53^rd CPA-AR conference and AGM was held under the theme, “African Parliaments at the Forefront of Addressing Existential Global Challenges: Food Insecurity, Climate Change and Youth Unemployment”. The conference consisted of the AGM, meetings of the Executive Committee and sub-committees, and workshops on various topical issues.

Madam Speaker, a number of outgoing members of the CPA-AR were also awarded and presented with plaques in recognition of their service to the organisation. I wish to report that the out-going vice-chairperson of the Executive Committee, Hon. Lukas Sinimbo Muha, MP; the out-going treasurer, Hon. Ntombi Lentheng Mekgwe, MP; the outgoing vice-treasurer, Mr Tumisang Mangwegape-Healy, MP; the out-going Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians (CWP) Africa chairperson, Dr Zainab Gimba, MP; the out-going CWP Africa vice-chairperson, Hon. Talita Monnakgotla, MP; the out-going Senior Regional Representative, Mr Osei Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu, MP; and the out-going Regional Secretary and former Clerk of the Parliament of Tanzania, Ms Nenelwa J. Mwihambi were recognised.

Madam Speaker, another highlight of the conference is that the gathering was informed, through the report of the CPA General-Secretary, Mr Stephen Twigg, that significant progress had been made in the legislative processes within the British political system towards changing the status of the CPA from being a British charity into an Inter-Parliamentary Organisation (IPO). To that effect, the relevant Bill, which had initially been sponsored by a Private Member, had been taken up by the British Government and was mentioned in the King's 2024 Speech. The assurance, notwithstanding, the Assembly resolved to keep the pressure on the British Government until the CPA becomes an IPO.

Madam Speaker, the last outcome of the Assembly that I want to highlight was the adoption of Hon. Dr Kalila, MP, First Vice-President of the CPA Zambia Branch, as Africa’s official candidate for the vacant position of chairperson of the CPA Executive Committee. Further, it was resolved that a team of CPA-AR members be set up to campaign for Hon. Dr Kalila during the 67^th Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference (CPC), which was later held in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, from 3^rd November, 2024, to 8^th November, 2024. The campaign team was led by Mr Osei Kyei-Mensah-Bonsu, MP, an hon. Member of the Ghanaian Parliament and senior member of the CPA. The other candidates who were vying for the position were Dr Zainab Gimba, MP, who was requested to withdraw her candidature to enable the continent to field one candidate, Hon. Dr Kalila, and Hon. Arthur E. Holder, MP, Speaker of the Barbados House of Assembly. On behalf of the delegation, I wish to congratulate Hon. Dr Kalila on his endorsement and thank him for flying the Zambian flag high in the CPA. As the House may be aware, he was, subsequently, elected chairperson of the CPA Executive Committee at the 67^th CPC in Australia.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the National Assembly of Zambia for facilitating the delegation’s participation at the conference. I also thank the CPA-Zambia Secretariat for its support to the delegation, including its remarkable contribution to Hon. Dr Kalila’s campaign at the conference. Allow me to also thank the African region for the confidence it has shown in our candidate. Indeed, the overwhelming endorsement of Hon. Dr Kalila's candidature by the region speaks volumes about the goodwill that the country, in general, and the National Assembly of Zambia, in particular, enjoy on the continent.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr J. Chibuye: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to second the Motion to adopt the Report of the Zambian Delegation to the 53rd Commonwealth Parliamentary Association African Regional (CPA-AR) Conference and Annual General Meeting (AGM) that was held in Arusha, Tanzania, from 29^th September, 2024, to 6^th October, 2024, ably moved by my colleague, the hon. Member for Mapatizya.

Madam Speaker, I will highlight a few areas that the mover of the Motion has not touched on. I will begin by talking about the discussion we had at the conference on enhancing Africa’s preparedness in coping with the effects of climate change. As we know, climate change is real. As such, the 53^rd CPA-AR Conference and AGM recommended that African Governments undertake policy reforms towards integrating climate change policies into planning and decision-making processes and to use international co-operation as a means of obtaining funding, acquiring technology and building capacity for implementing mitigation strategies as well as coping with the consequential disasters.

Madam Speaker, this was a subject that was stressed and discussed at length looking at the real issues surrounding climate change. The African Governments were also urged to educate communities about the risks of climate change and the actions the communities can take, and to engage in joint initiatives that address cross-border climate challenges such as desertification, droughts and floods. The Assembly also called on African Parliamentarians to influence legislation and resource allocation towards poverty alleviation as one of the ways of mitigating the effects of climate change on the continent.

Madam Speaker, the second salient issue that was discussed was the need to harness the abundant renewable energy sources to speed up industrialisation. As you may know, the drought that hit certain parts of the continent left many deficiencies in energy satisfaction. As such, the Assembly advised African Governments to engage the private sector and international organisations in a financial mechanism that specifically supports the development of renewable energy infrastructure in Africa and to also conduct public awareness campaigns on the benefits of renewable energy. It also encouraged community participation in local projects, and discouraged the use of fossil oil as a source of electricity generation, but rather focus on less costly and sustainable sources that also support industrialisation. African Governments were also encouraged to develop clear regulatory frameworks that support the integration of renewable energies into national grids and to create a regional framework for joint ventures and collaborative projects aimed at harnessing cross-border renewable energy sources.

Madam Speaker, the third issue that was discussed was the mounting crisis of mistrust in political institutions in Africa, and that came out clearly among CPA-AR members who recommend that African Governments establish or strengthen independent electoral commissions that are free from political influence and capable of conducting transparent, fair and credible elections. Many CPA-AR members did not mince their words on this subject matter. The Assembly also urged Governments to review and update legal frameworks governing elections to align them with international standards and best practice, and to also establish mechanisms for timely resolution of electoral disputes through independent Judicial bodies and encourage the formation of inter-party dialogue organs and dialogue between electoral commissions and political parties to build trust and consensus on electoral processes.

Madam Speaker, the fourth point is the contribution of women in parliaments. The issue that arose is that women are few in number in most CPA-AR parliaments. As such, the Assembly urged African parliaments to adopt legislative measures, including gender quotas, to ensure a minimum percentage of women candidates in elections, establish mentorship programmes in which experienced female politicians can guide new entrants, undertake structural reforms to create more inclusive environments for women, including family-friendly policies, and promote the participation of women in leadership positions that influence socio-economic policy-making and politics. The Assembly also encouraged African Governments and parliaments to conduct public awareness campaigns to change societal attitudes and behaviours towards women in leadership roles.

Madam Speaker, the last point that I want to discuss is the reform of the education system in Africa to address youth unemployment. The Assembly recommended that African Governments reform their education policies to better align the education system with labour market needs focusing not only on academic excellence, but practical and digital skills acquisition; integrating vocational training programmes into secondary and tertiary education systems, providing students with hands-on experience in various trades and investing in digital infrastructure. Africa is also urged to enhance teacher training programmes to improve teaching quality, particularly in Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics (STEM) subjects, increase funding for entrepreneurship and innovation educational programmes as pathways to self-employment, and avail the youths with capital to start businesses and collaborate with international organisations, including the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO), the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund (UNICEF) and the World Bank, to provide technical assistance and financial support for educational reforms targeting youth employment creation.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to congratulate Hon. Dr Kalila on his adoption as Africa’s sole candidate for the position of chairperson of the CPA Executive Committee and his, subsequent, election to the position, which took place at the 67^th Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference (CPC).

Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the National Assembly of Zambia for according the delegation the opportunity to participate in the 53^rd CPA-AR Conference and AGM. I also thank the CPA Zambia Secretariat, which did a commendable job of ensuring that the delegation's participation at the conference was a success.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, according me this opportunity means allowing the people of Lunte to have a say on the debate to adopt the Report of the Delegation to the 53^rd Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Africa Regional (CPA-AR) Conference that took place in Arusha, Tanzania.

Madam Speaker, as chairperson for the Committee on National Guidance and Gender Matters, during this period of observing the Sixteen Days of Activism Against Gender-Based Violence (GBV), I would like to request our people to support women by avoiding all forms of violence and discrimination against them.

Madam Speaker, taking you to page No. 7 of the Report, I would like to spend a few minutes on Item 4.3, which is: Reforming Electoral Systems in Africa to Address the Mounting Crisis of Mistrust in Political Institutions, as the only point that I will discuss. To contextualise this debate, I would like to bring it home because we are all products of politics here, in the House, at least all the hon. Members. The importance of politics was properly deliberated at the CPA-AR Conference in Arusha. The delegation’s report reads as follows:

“Mr Hadeba, MP, also stated that electoral reform was an integral part of democratic development, and elaborated that electoral reform was critical to the cultivation of a culture of democratic engagement and inclusive politics. He proffered that political stability required the creation of mechanisms for people to voice their sentiments on how the governments should govern and that electoral systems should enjoy wide support so that their outcomes may be seen as legitimate.”

Madam Speaker, our people’s voices should be heard. The Government and political institutions must not curtail the people from debating. That is why when a person protests, like Jason Mwanza who protested at the Freedom Statue, such protests should be allowed to take place so that people’s views are freely expressed. I do not know if you know a young lady from Chingola called Elizabeth Chakubeba who was transported from Chingola and put in the police cells at Richard Kachingwe Police Post for simply expressing herself, yet a Committee’s report states that the people must be allowed to talk and to tell leaders whether things are okay or not. It is part of democratic development. I know that there are many political players, in particular, those who are in the Opposition who have countless court cases, for example, Hon. Rapheal Nakacinda.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, …

Mr Kafwaya: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … please, do not mention names. Those people are not here, in the House, to defend themselves.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I will move on.

Madam Speaker, there is a man who runs an online page called whistle-blower who was put in police cells at Ridgeway Police for simply making an expression. Those are the expressions for which the people at the CPA-AR Conference said that people should be allowed to make. After putting him in police cells for countless days against the mandatory forty-eight hours, …

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: … he was told to provide four sureties, a thing which must not happen.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Maybe, the issue of expression is toxic. Madam Speaker, I will move on to the issue of elections.

Madam Speaker, elections are important, …

Mr Nkandu: Eh!

Mr Kafwaya: … in promoting democracy.

Mr Nkandu: It is important because we won.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I won an election in Lunte twice. Even after the United Party for National Development (UPND) took me to court, it became clear that I had won. Free and fair elections are important. That is why I expected free and fair elections in Kabushi. Remember what happened in Kabushi and Kwacha.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) used expired ballot papers.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya; Madam Speaker, some people may not know.

Mr Amutike: Sit down!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, can we, please, just focus on the report instead of digressing.

Mr Kafwaya: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, in Petauke –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Do you have evidence concerning those expired ballot papers?

Mr Kafwaya: Yes, Madam Speaker. The ballot papers were expired.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you lay them on the Table?

Mr Kafwaya: No, no. Madam Speaker–

Mr Nkandu: After serving as an hon. Minister for three months.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: If you have no evidence, please, do not mention them. Talk about other things.

Mr Nkandu interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue with your debate, hon. Member for Lunte.

Mr Kafwaya rose and pointed at Mr Nkandu.

Mr Kafwaya: (pointed at Mr Nkandu) Madam Speaker, this one.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is that?

Interruptions

Mr Amutike: You are irrelevant!

Mr Kafwaya: This hon. Minister here, Madam Speaker (pointed at Mr Nkandu).

Interruptions

Mr Kasandwe: Control him.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What has he done?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, listen, this hon. Minister is saying that I was a Minister for only three months, and that is why I am bitter.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us not debate while seated. I gave guidance much earlier to the effect that we should avoid debating ourselves.

Mr Nkandu: But the way he is debating, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: Mwaufwa, mayo?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can you be focused on the report, hon. Member.

Mr Nkandu: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasandwe: Why is he allowed to respond to a ruling?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue, hon. Member for Lunte.

I have already given guidance. Let us not have running commentaries.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am happy that Her Honour the Vice-President is in the House. Given that the ECZ is under her office, I am confident that after consideration of this CPA-AR Conference Report, which is not a generation of this Assembly but of the hon. Members of Parliament from Commonwealth countries, Her Honour the Vice-President will tell the ECZ that the conduct it exhibited in Kawambwa was bad.

Mr Mwiimbu: No!

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: That conduct cannot be –

Mr Sampa On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, …

Mr Kafwaya: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … can you, please, try to be focused?

When you give examples, have evidence of what you are mentioning in the House so that we can move together. If you do not have evidence, as earlier guided, do not mention such things. That is my last guidance to you as you proceed with your debate.

Mr Amutike: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Member for Lunte comes in, there is an indication for a point of order.

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order on the relevance of speech. This speaker who was an hon. Minister for three months, and he even failed as an hon. Minister in that time, is busy wandering –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member.

Let us use his current position, which is hon. Member for Lunte. We do not know whether he was a former hon. Minister before we knew him as the hon. Member for Lunte.

You may continue.

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, my point of order is based on Standing Order No. 71, which is on the relevance of speech. We have a serious report that needs to be debated in this House, but the speaker is busy wandering all over and talking about things that have nothing to do with the report. He is wasting our time. There are many hon. Members who want to debate, including myself. Is he in order to waste Parliament's time by talking about things that are not even in the report?

Madam Speaker, we have business to conduct, as the United Party for National Development (UPND).

I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think, I gave him guidance to the effect that he should be focused and that when he mentions something that needs evidence, he should lay the evidence on the Table. In fact, I told him that I was guiding him for the last time. I allowed him to proceed taking into consideration my guidance

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Sorry.

I think, I omitted the hon. Member for Matero who had indicated much earlier for a point of order.

What is your point of hon. Member for Matero?

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, I rise in line with Standing Order No. 71. The rules are clear. When someone is debating, we are all supposed to be quiet and listen attentively.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Sampa: Is the hon. Member for Kaputa, the Minister of Youth, Sport and Art, the one-term Member of Parliament, in order to be debating whilst seated when the hon. Member for Lunte is debating on the Floor?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I already gave guidance. I indicated that no one should debate whilst seated. It is guidance that was already given.

Hon. Member for Lunte, please, wind up your debate.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the importance of elections cannot be over-emphasised. That is why the CPA-AR Conference also considered elections.

Madam Speaker, the Constitutional Court of Zambia delivered a judgment on 15^th October, 2024, wherein it said that one cannot vary the ninety days. There will be a by-election in Kawambwa, but Hon. Chilangwa’s seat was declared vacant over 120 days ago.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: We are a constitutional democracy, Madam Speaker, but that is the standard that we have accepted under the UPND Government. When the High Court or any other court has stayed proceedings, one is supposed to take heed. However, elections are taking place when there is a stay of judgement. What are you telling the court? What is the ECZ telling the courts? Is it saying that the courts are nothing and that the courts can say what they want, but the ECZ will go ahead? According to best practice, established even in this report by my friends who had the privilege of travelling to Arusha, peace, stability and development can be a product of democracy if one applies oneself properly. One cannot apply oneself when one disregards courts in that manner. It is not a proper application of oneself when one disregards court judgements. I am grossly disappointed with the UPND Government’s application of the declarations that come from our courts.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, it is very important for us to have decent demeanours. Do you know that the Acting Registrar of Societies resigned? The Acting Registrar of Societies registers political parties. He was served with papers of contempt because of illegal instructions. So, he has bolted. Today, democracy is on the chopping board.

Interruptions

 Mr Kafwaya: Democracy in this country is literally non-existent.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I support this report and I think that its contents should be adopted by this House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for affording me this opportunity to add a voice to the debate on the Report of the Zambian Delegation to the 53^rd Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Africa Regional (CPA-AR) Conference and Annual General Meeting (AGM) that took place in Arusha, Tanzania.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I would like to thank the delegation for representing us in Arusha and for sharing the resolutions that came from the meeting. I also want to appreciate the Committee for adopting Hon. Dr Christopher Kalila, MP, as the candidate for the position of chairperson of the Executive Committee, which he was, subsequently, elected to when we travelled to Sydney, Australia for the Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference (CPC). It was at the Arusha Meeting where he was adopted.

Madam Speaker, I will talk about the issue of mistrust and political machinations. Contrary to what other hon. Members are imputing, I think that Zambia is standing in a better position with regard to governance and democracy. I say that because at the time that the report from the Zambian Delegation to the CPA Meeting in Australia will be tabled in the House, the same will be noted. I was present at the conference as the second vice-president, and I witnessed how the Commonwealth appreciated Zambia and His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Nyambose: That is real, Madam Speaker. Hon. Members can read about it whenever they find that report. So, as we look at governance, we should pat ourselves on the back because while there is more that we can do, we are far better off. We need to work on the small things that make us differ here and there. Otherwise, we are held in high esteem. I do not think that imputing that we are on the verge of a breakdown is the right position. We, as Zambia, are trying.

Madam Speaker, looking at the part in the report on transforming the CPA into an international organisation unlike being a charity, I would like to appreciate the resolutions that were made at the Arusha Conference and the delegation’s report. Indeed, it has been a cry from all the CPA-AR members and other regions that the organisation should be transformed into an international organisation. I want to comfort everyone by saying that the British Parliament has moved the agenda and we have been assured that by the end of the year, the transformation will be concluded. It is the wish of everyone in the CPA.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to talk about the promotion of good governance. Good governance is one of the principles that anchors the CPA. It is the duty of countries that are better, like Zambia, to be shining examples and to share how they are governing and transforming themselves.

Mr Chaatila: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is an indication for a point of order, which is the last one.

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, my point of order is premised on – today I will be correct– Standing Order No. 214(2)(k). This point of order is on the Member of Parliament for Lunte, Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya.

Madam Speaker, part (k) of the Standing Order is instructive. It reads:

“A Member shall not leave the House immediately after debating. Instead, after debating, a Member shall resume his or her seat to listen to the debates of other Members, …” I want to underline that, “… and only leave the House afterwards, if necessary.”

Madam Speaker, as always, it is on record, and you can check the cameras, and you will see that each time the hon. Member for Lunte comes into the House, he either raises an Urgent Matter Without Notice and leaves the House thereafter, or he waits for his turn to debate and immediately leaves after debating without listening to the debates of other hon. Members. This is a House with rules and procedures. Is he in order to continuously behave in that manner at the expense of the people who elected him to be in this House, as he indicated that this is his second term?

Madam Speaker, I seek your ruling on this matter.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I have also noticed the hon. Member for Lunte’s tendency. Immediately after debating, he walks out of the Assembly Chamber. The hon. Member is actually out of order and we hope that he will improve.

Hon. Member on the Floor, you may continue.

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the report mentions many people who are exiting from their positions. One of them who was mentioned is Dr Bonsu from Ghana. looking at these eminent personnel who have been serving in the CPA, in the short period that I have been on the CPA delegation, I have noticed the consistency in which they participate in CPA programmes. In Zambia’s case, we seem to have many turnovers or rotations of members even when it comes to attending regional meetings. I would like to bring this to Hon. Dr Kalila’s attention. We, as Zambians, are very happy and we are lucky that we have personnel in the organisation. However, there is no consistency on the part of Zambia. If we look at our friends from Malawi or Uganda, we will see that they still have the same personnel while a few other members are added to their delegations. In our case, we have different people attending each conference. For continuity and capacity building, we need to find mechanisms in which some members can alternate joining the delegation while others continue as members. That is why we now have Hon. Dr Kalila in that position. Had it not been for his constant presence at most of the CPA meetings, it would have been difficult for him to be known. Looking at the CPA branches from Malawi and Uganda, we note that some of the people in those delegations are known. Other known hon. Members are Dr Bonsu and Dr Dimba, who challenged Hon. Dr Kalila for the position. They are people who have been in the organisation for a long time. We should pay attention to the way we rotate delegates. We have different people attending each conference. So, relating and fellowshipping with our friends to be known becomes difficult. For the future, I would like to appeal for the capacity building of certain people whilst allowing others to participate on a rotational basis so that we can occupy the space that Zambia is supposed to occupy. We are held in the highest esteem.

Madam Speaker, while some people are of the view that democracy is not easy, as a country, we are doing fairly well relative to what we see in other countries. We are a model country. I will wait for the Zambian Delegation’s report on the CPA Conference that was in Sydney, which will indicate what I am saying. Even the Prime Minister of Australia appreciated Zambia. So, we are doing fairly well and we can do more. I do not think that it is a fair assessment to impute that we are on the verge of a breakdown in terms of democracy. We are leaders. The public watches us. We can do better, but those political assertions are not fair, especially on the Government.

Madam Speaker, I support the Motion moved by the hon. Member for Mapatizya.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, I ruled that I would not take any more points of order. I cannot go against my ruling.

Is there any hon. Minister to respond to the debate?

Mr Mwiimbu indicated assent.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, you may proceed.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion that has been moved by the hon. Member for Mapatizya.

Madam Speaker, the good book tells and advises us that bitterness is a very dangerous disease and it can kill.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I have noted with concern that we have one individual, an hon. Member of Parliament, who has been aspiring to be a presidential candidate under the Patriotic Front (PF), and because of that, and the frustrations that have been put in place by his political party, he has become bitter towards the Government of the Republic of Zambia, …

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … as if we were the ones who took his K200,000 and stopped him from being a presidential candidate under the PF. Whenever he stands on the Floor of this House, he spews bitterness. Today, I listened attentively to his speech as he stood on the Floor of this House, and I have come to the conclusion that he is one of those people who are aiding and abetting criminality in this country.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Maybe, you can just respond to the issues that the hon. Member raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Exactly, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I am saying that he is aiding and abetting criminality. I am saying so taking into account the examples that he gave of people in this country, who have been abusing the President by posting things that are untenable, and that should not be tolerated. As the Government, we respect free speech, but we shall not condone criminality. There are laws in this country. If one goes against the laws of this country, one will be held accountable. No one has been arrested for not committing any offence. There is an offence that has been committed by whoever has been arrested by the Zambia Police Service (ZPS), and they have been answering to those offences in the courts of law. Those who have been found wanting have been convicted by the competent courts of law.

Madam Speaker, where one’s rights end, other people’s rights start. There is no way that my hon. Colleagues can be sponsoring individuals to insult members of the public and the leadership of this country. They use surrogates who are outside the country to post insults, abuse and publish venomous articles, and because those people know that they are outside the jurisdiction, they think that the long arm of the law cannot catch up with them. We are aware that the individuals whom the hon. Member cited have been posting abominations against the President and individuals in this House.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: The evidence is there.

Madam Speaker, surely, any leader worth being called honourable cannot do what those people are doing. One cannot pretend that one is crying for free speech if one is going to insult somebody’s parents and post obnoxious pictures, and then tell the nation, through this House, that that is free speech. If that person says that those actions are free speech, I would not be wrong in saying that he was not properly brought up. Anyone who is properly brought up cannot insult someone’s parents. One cannot do that. One cannot start talking about somebody’s mother in the calls to advance free speech. We have lost our morals and culture. Unfortunately, the champions of immorality are in this House and we heard them speak today.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, please, take into consideration the report as well. You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, when we are debating, we debate what is happening. Let us go back to what used to happen under the PF Government.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: During the elections or what?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, under the PF Government, if the Former President was in the Copperbelt–

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: We are now talking about governance.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, if the President then was on the Copperbelt Province, no other leader was allowed to travel to that province.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: No one was allowed.

Madam Speaker, in Sesheke, live ammunition was used against us. I was a victim. In Shiwang’andu, a helicopter that was being used by our current Vice-President was not allowed to land by the PF cadres and thugs.

Mr Amutike: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President could not campaign in Shiwang’andu. Hon. Mutati, who is a leader in a political alliance, had to run for his life because of the thuggery of the PF. Under that thuggery, Hon. Nkombo was abused in Livingstone. His hand was broken by PF thugs, and we know them.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, order!

Please, maybe, you can refer those incidents to the report’s contents.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I am responding to the issues that were said by a bitter colleague, the hon. Member for Lunte, and he was giving examples vis-à-vis what is happening currently. During the reign of the PF Government, our member, a lady, was raped in front of PF leaders at the Freedom Statue on a day we were celebrating Youth Day, and nothing has been done to date. No one has been held accountable. During the reign of the PF, we saw a number of our members being killed but, to date, the political party has not apologised to the nation for the killings that occurred. All that the members say is “Alebwelelapo”, to continue the atrocities.

Hon. UPND Members: Alebwelelapo where?

Mr Mwiimbu: I do not know where.

Madam Speaker, we will not forget that the reign of the PF was the time that our current President was accused of treason even when there was no treason committed. It took the Commonwealth to intercede in this country for our President to be set free, …

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … but our friends, including the one who is trying to raise a point of order, celebrated the arrest. We are aware of what used to happen. When one wants to talk about democracy during our reign, one should always – do not forget Zambians– refer to what used to happen under the PF. I know that there are three groupings now in the PF.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Wind up hon. Minister.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I know that there are two good groups in the PF. One is so bad that we do not even want to see its members and it should not come back.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, you were not in the Assembly Chamber when I ruled that there would not be any more points of order.

Hon. Member for Mapatizya, wind up debate.

Mrs Munashabantu: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. J. Chibuye for ably seconding the Motion. I would also like to thank the hon. Members who debated; the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, Hon. Nyambose and Hon. Kafwaya. Finally, I would like to thank the whole House for unanimously supporting the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

Hon. Kafwaya went to sit between Ms Sefulo and Mr Sing’ombe.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, is there a problem somewhere?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, please, go back to your seat. We want to make progress.

______

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES SUPERANNUATION FUND (Amendment) BILL, 2024

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, it is a great honour for me to present a statement to this august House on the principles of the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (Amendment) Bill. No. 21 of 2024 for Second Reading. This is a significant milestone in our journey of enacting a law that will ensure that the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) continues to fulfil its mandate to its members while adhering to the constitutional provisions of protecting their retirement benefits.

Madam Speaker, the Bill is being developed to address issues arising from the Government's 2015 Policy to raise the national retirement age from fifty-five to sixty, and allow for early retirement at the age of fifty-five and late retirement at the age of sixty-five. The policy led to challenges in calculating pension benefits beyond the age of fifty-five as the schedules in the existing LASF legislation only covered accruals up to age fifty-five. Thus, the ministry, working with stakeholders, undertook to amend the existing legal framework to protect the pension entitlements of LASF members and ensure that their benefits are not reduced. The proposed amendments aim to ensure that LASF can continue to fulfil its mandate to the members while adhering to the constitutional provisions of protecting retirement benefits, as mentioned earlier.

Madam Speaker, the object of the Bill is to amend the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund Act to achieve the following:

1. revise the accrual rate of a retirement benefit;

1. revise the commutation factors; and

1. provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, the salient provisions of the Bill are tabulated hereunder:

1. Clause 2 - repeal and replacement of Section 25. This Clause seeks to repeal and replace section 25 of the principal Act revising the annuity rate at which retirement benefits are payable to employees who joined the fund either before or after 14^th August, 2015, and retired at the ages of fifty-five, sixty or sixty-five.

Furthermore, Madam Speaker, the Clause provides for the option to commute either one-third or two-thirds of a member’s retirement benefit into a lumpsum upon their retirement in accordance with the rate specified in the Third Schedule. Additionally, the Clause grants the hon. Minister, in consultation with the fund, the authority to prescribe the rate at which retirement benefits are payable based on the actuarial valuation conducted to assess the financial stability of the fund.

(b)     Clause 3 - Repeal and replacement of the First, Second and Third Schedules. This Clause seeks to repeal and replace the First, Second and Third schedules of the principal Act introducing revised commutation factors for retirement and a formula for the calculation of additional retirement benefits.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I wish to extend my sincere commendation to the hon. Members of this House and the Joint Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs and the Committee on Local Government Accounts for the work that they have undertaken on the Bill so far. In the same token, the Government takes note of the various recommendations that were made by the committee, particularly the recommendation to amend Clause No. 25(6) to restrict the provision on the consideration of actuarial valuations in determining the rate at which a retirement benefit is payable without giving the power to the discretion of the hon. Minister through promulgating a Statutory Instrument (SI). The Government will, therefore, effect the recommended amendment to the Bill as it does not have any significant impact on the operations of LASF.

Madam Speaker, I want to indicate that the Committee that was chaired by the hon. Member for Chasefu, Mr Nyambose, gave us a warm and interactive session during its work. As the committee system remains the heart and soul of Parliament, we, on the right hand side, are more than willing to adopt the recommendations of the Committee as our own.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference as provided for in the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, the Joint Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs and the Committee on Local Government Accounts was tasked to consider the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (Amendment), Bill, N.A.B. No. 21 of 2024, which was referred to it on 31^st October, 2024.

Madam Speaker, I wish to state from the outset that all the stakeholders who appeared before the Committee supported the Bill. In the same vein, the Committee supports the Bill and urges the House to do the same. In supporting the Bill, the stakeholders highlighted a few concerns, which are detailed in the report. Based on the interactions with the stakeholders, the Committee has made some observations and recommendations, which I will now comment on.

Madam Speaker, the Committee recognises the urgent need for reforms to safeguard LASF's long-term financial sustainability. With the increasing number of retirees, the fund is at risk of financial strain. The Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government approaches these amendments as part of a broader pension system reform harmonising LASF's operations with other schemes for consistency and efficiency. Additionally, the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development should prioritise strengthening the partnership with local authorities to ensure that historical debts owed to LASF are settled promptly.

Madam Speaker, with regard to ministerial powers and actuarial valuation, the Committee noted that although granting powers to the hon. Minister to revise retirement benefits based on actuarial valuations will enhance financial oversight, it raises questions about the need to maintain a balance between ministerial authority and LASF's governance autonomy. In that vein, the Committee strongly recommends that the Government considers amending Clause No. 25(6) to limit its application to the use of actuarial valuations when determining the rate at which a retirement benefit is payable without granting the hon. Minister discretionary powers to enact changes via a Statutory Instrument (SI). The Committee believes that this approach will safeguard the financial future of members and the long-term sustainability of the fund.

Madam Speaker, another matter of the Committee's concern is the lack of a board at LASF. The Committee is worried that LASF has been operating without a board for several years thus negatively affecting its performance in executing critical functions, such as approving budgets and policy changes. The Committee, therefore, strongly recommends that the board be swiftly appointed to restore effective governance.

Madam Speaker, may I also comment on LASF's policy that allows its members to commute a portion of their benefits into a lumpsum upon retirement. The Committee noted that LASF is no longer admitting new members, which is threatening the scheme's long-term viability. The Committee recommends diversifying investment portfolios into stable options such as Government bonds and real estate to generate sustainable returns. Additionally, the position of the fund on not taking new membership should be re-considered to ensure its continued relevance and financial stability.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, on behalf of the Committee members, I wish to extend our gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the invaluable guidance and support provided to the Committee throughout its deliberations. The Committee also remains deeply appreciative to all the witnesses who appeared before it for their co-operation and for providing the essential briefs.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me this time to say a few words on the debate on the Bill.

Madam Speaker, I believe that this is a very progressive move. I think, we need to undertake radical reforms for the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) to survive. Currently, LASF is on its deathbed because it is not able to receive new members. I know that from 2000, all the workers in this country who were employed automatically became members of the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA). So, that meant that LASF was not receiving new members. A pension scheme cannot survive without receiving new members. Once people are retired, the new members finance the retirement benefits of the retiring workers. So, one would imagine that from 2000 up to this time, LASF has not received new members. It cannot sustain its operations by depending on grants from the Government.

Madam Speaker, I was a member of LASF. I know that it was formed to represent workers at ZESCO Limited, local authorities and the National Housing Authority (NHA). Now, most of the members have retired. The institution is almost a shell. I want to commend its management because it has tried its level best under very difficult conditions. Just like the Committee has recommended, I think, there is a need to consider amending the Act as quickly as possible so that the institution can receive new members and compete with NAPSA. If we have two pension schemes competing against each other, we can see a situation whereby retirees receive good benefits unlike what is happening at the moment. I believe that those who were members of LASF got a handsome package compared to NAPSA when they retired.

Madam Speaker, the other concern is the annuity. The annuity that retirees get is a drop in the ocean. If one looks at the current economic status in this country, one will see that surely if someone is getting K300 or K400 per month, then, maybe, per year it is about K4,000. Those amounts cannot enable retirees to live a comfortable life. So, it is important that the Government ensures, as quickly as possible, that LASF is able to receive new members.

Madam Speaker, in the absence of a board at LASF, it is very difficult for the institution to undertake investment portfolios. Therefore, it is my appeal to the Government to constitute a board at LASF.

With those few remarks, Madam Speaker, I support the good work that was done by the Committee. My appeal, once more, is that we ensure that LASF is able to receive new members and also revise the annuity to reasonable amounts. That way, our former workers will live dignified lives.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We have to close the debate on this Bill.

Hon. Minister, wind up debate.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, thank you, once again, for giving me the opportunity to get the Bill this far.

Madam Speaker, I would like to acknowledge, once again, the comments that came from the chairperson of the Committee, Hon. Misheck Nyambose, and also the Member for Chama North, Hon. Yotam Mtayachalo. Both of whom were actually members of LASF, as contributors in their past lives. I have taken full note of their concerns, particularly the one that speaks to the issue of a board. I just wish to assure them that work has been done to constitute and put the board in place, as I indicated in the Committee engagement when I was a witness before it.

Madam Speaker, I also want to say that Hon. Mtayachalo’s accolades for the management of LASF are well noted. However, it is also good for him to not be shy in congratulating the Government that has resuscitated LASF by injecting K400 million to start paying off the contributors who had been waiting for a very long time. Part of the reason we got to this point is as the hon. Member said. When the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) was established, it was a silver bullet to LASF, and the institution became tranquilised until twenty-four years later when His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, came into power. Like it or not, the President has earned the name of one who is able to resurrect things that are dying.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the paralysis that had been caused by the decision regarding LASF by previous Governments from 2000 through to the last three years when His Excellency the President took office is demonstration enough that we want to resuscitate the institution, attract new members and vitalise it because it is worth keeping alive.

All in all, I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 4^th December, 2024.

THIRD READING

The following Bills were read the third time and passed:

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2024

The Zambia Revenue Authority (Amendment) Bill, 2024 

 The Insurance Premium Levy (Amendment) Bill, 2024   

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

(Consideration resumed)

VOTE 45 (Ministry of Community Development and Social Services – K9,889,620,769)

The Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu) (on behalf of the Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms D. Mwamba)): Mr Chairperson, let me take advantage of this opportunity to say that I have been sitting quietly and humbly observing the proceedings of this House. Even when some hon. Members were suggesting that there is a one-term ‘Kaputa’ man, I did not hear anyone congratulating Barbara Banda for her efforts and for winning the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) Women’s Footballer of The Year, 2024, award.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: Mr Chairperson, so, I thought I should take advantage of this opportunity to add a voice. I have not heard anything in the House, especially for the outsiders, including His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, who congratulated Barbara Banda for winning the award. I want to thank Barbara Banda for winning that award. She should continue doing what she knows best.

Mr Chairperson, with that said, I beg to move that Head total K9,889,620,769 be approved in respect of Head 45 – Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, to meet the expenditure for the year 2025.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46 – (Ministry of Health – K21,498,161,512)

The Minister of Health (Mr Muchima): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that Head total K21,498,161,512 be approved in respect of Head 46 – Ministry of Health, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Vote 46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1829 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 28^th November, 2024.

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