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Tuesday, 17th December, 2024
Tuesday, 17th December, 2024
The House met at 1430 hours
[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
_______
ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER
SPECIAL SITTING OF THE HOUSE
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that today’s Assembly is a special sitting of the House that has been called to deal with only one item on the agenda, which, as indicated on the Order Paper, is to consider the Report of the Planning and Budgeting Committee on the Revised 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan.
In this regard, as this is a special sitting, there will be no other business to consider as provided for by Standing Order No. 55 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024.
I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
________
MOTION
REPORT OF THE PLANNING AND BUDGETING COMMITTEE ON THE REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE 2024 ANNUAL BORROWING PLAN SECOND AMENDMENT
Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Planning and Budgeting Committee on the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Second Amendment for the Fourth Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 16th December, 2024.
Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?
Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): I beg to second the Motion, Madam Speaker.
Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, in accordance with Standing Order No. 175(1) and its terms of reference as provided in Standing Order No. 204(4) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, the Committee was tasked with scrutinising the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Second Amendment. In executing this task, the Committee primarily engaged with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the ministry officials.
Madam Speaker, the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Second Amendment seeks the approval of the National Assembly for the contraction of a US$150 million loan on revised terms, initially approved through the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. The revised terms are as follows:
- the loan’s face value has been reduced from US$150 million to US$108 million;
- the interest rate will now be in the range of 5 per cent to 6 per cent per annum, depending on whether it is fixed or variable, from the initial maximum of 2.75 per cent;
- the grace period has been increased from five to eight years; and
- the repayment period has been extended to twenty-five years, ensuring a longer amortisation profile.
Madam Speaker, these revisions are necessitated by financing constraints on the part of the African Development Bank (AfDB). Additionally, the available financing is limited to the bank’s window, which offers variable interest rates linked to the Secured Overnight Financing Rate (SOFR) currently averaging 6 per cent per annum.
Madam Speaker, the Motion before the House shows the importance that Zambians have attached to the process of contracting external loans. The humbling experience of the debt restructuring exercise is one that I believe none of us would like to ever go through again.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, the Public Debt Management Act of 2022 requires the preparation of the Annual Borrowing Plan to be approved by the National Assembly. Preparation of the plan has to take into account the Medium Term Debt Strategy, among other things. At the time of approving the initial 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan, the implementation guidelines in the Medium Term Debt Strategy were that any external borrowing would be on concessional terms. This is what was approved by the House. The loan from the AfDB was included in the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. As will be observed in the report, there are two main reasons that this loan has to be contracted at this point of the year. Firstly, the loan is critical for financing the 2024 Budget deficit. It will enable the Government to fully implement various development programmes and priorities outlined in the Budget, including the drought response initiatives, social and health sector interventions, and enhancements to the public financial management systems.
Madam Speaker, secondly, failure to execute the 2024 Budget satisfactorily could negatively affect the International Monetary Fund (IMF) programme, potentially leading to the non-disbursement of the fourth tranche of the US$188 million, which is important for implementing the 2025 National Budget. Furthermore, the inability to contract this loan may adversely impact financial support from co-operating partners whose interventions, particularly in social protection, are tied to the programme. Additionally, failing to meet the conditions of the fourth IMF review could derail the ongoing debt restructuring process, which is currently 90 per cent complete.
Madam Speaker, your Committee noted that contracting new external loans on non-concessional terms contradicts the Government’s medium-term commitments. However, your Committee took comfort in the fact that this loan is being arranged through a multilateral agency, which is the AfDB. Your Committee is further comforted by the fact that multilateral agencies conduct their own due diligence and would not have permitted Zambia to proceed with the loan if it had failed to meet the requirements for a country facing debt challenges.
Madam Speaker, as you may be aware, borrowing amid volatile global financial conditions requires robust risk mitigation strategies. Your Committee acknowledged the ministry’s efforts to minimise the impact of global financial volatility by securing a loan with a fixed interest rate, longer tenure, and an extended grace period. While fixed interest rates may not adapt to changing market conditions, they are more appropriate given the recent global economic vulnerabilities. The extended grace period and longer tenure have made the AfDB loan closer to concessional terms.
Madam Speaker, your Committee treated this matter as an exceptional case that is unlikely to recur in the near future. The Committee accepted the reasons for contracting the loan despite the changed terms. It also acknowledged the efforts of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to negotiate the grace period and tenure of the loan. Therefore, your Committee recommends that the House approves the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Second Amendment to facilitate the implementation of the 2024 National Budget. In doing so, your Committee has made further recommendations. To ensure debt sustainability, the Committee recommends that the ministry strengthens its due diligence processes to evaluate all external borrowing proposals against the Medium Term Debt Strategy before submitting them for approval. Your Committee also reiterates the recommendation that future annual borrowing plans and their amendments should include a comprehensive sensitivity analysis for exchange rate fluctuations. Exchange rates have been unstable in recent years, including during the current fiscal year. Such instability could negatively affect the debt service to revenue ratio.
Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I wish to express your Committee’s appreciation to the Parliamentary Budget Office and the ministry for their valuable input during the deliberations. The Committee also extends gratitude to you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the invaluable support and guidance that was given throughout the process.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?
Mr Mulebwa: Now, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, in seconding the Motion ably moved by the chairperson of your Committee, urging this House to adopt the Report of the Planning and Budgeting Committee on the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Second Amendment, laid on the Floor of the House on 16th December, 2024, I wish to highlight a few additional issues not covered by the chairperson.
Madam Speaker, your Committee was informed that the delay in presenting the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Second Amendment to the National Assembly was due to the lengthy negotiations and contracting processes that were beyond the ministry’s control. While your Committee supports the amendment under these circumstances, we strongly hope that similar delays will be avoided in the future, particularly if the ministry implements the recommendations put forth by your Committee, such as strict adherence to Section 10 of the Public Debt Management Act of 2022. This section requires the Minister in charge of finance to submit updates on the implementation of the Annual Borrowing Plan twice a year. I want to believe that the delays experienced in preparing the updates of this loan should have been communicated to hon. Members. Had the updates been presented in a timely manner, the revision of the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan would have been more of a formality, without the need to justify many issues. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should, therefore, ensure that the National Assembly is periodically updated on the implementation of the Annual Borrowing Plan to minimise the chances of late submissions, as the case had been with the one before the House.
Madam Speaker, as highlighted in the report, one key metric that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is maintaining under the IMF extended credit facility is the external debt service to revenue ratio target of 14 per cent. In very simple terms, it means that only 14 per cent in K1 should go towards external debt service. This is essential for maintaining debt sustainability and fiscal discipline. Your Committee, therefore, urges the ministry to be steadfast on this requirement.
Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I join the mover of the Motion in urging this House to adopt the report of your Committee. I also wish to express my gratitude to you for granting me the opportunity to serve on this important Committee. My appreciation also extends to the hon. Members of your Committee for allowing me to second this Motion.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Madam Speaker: I see that there is a lot of interest from hon. Members to debate the Motion. Let me provide guidance.
Hon. Members, as you debate, restrict yourselves to the report submitted by the Planning and Budgeting Committee. Also, bear in mind that this is a revised Annual Borrowing Plan we are looking at. In fact, it is the second amendment to the Annual Borrowing Plan. You are reminded to be alive to the provisions of Standing Order No. 71 during the debate. Any example or reference made on the Floor of the House must be verifiable and factual. I will be alternating between the left and the right so that we balance the debate. I will start with the Leader of the Opposition.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mapani: Your leader!
Mr Chabinga (Mafinga): Madam Speaker, from the outset, I wish to state that this is a non-controversial Motion. Every well-meaning hon. Member of Parliament must support it, including those who collect the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I rarely speak, but I want to set the tone, as the Leader of the Opposition. This is a non-controversial Motion.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, I wish to state that the Government bringing the amendment to the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan to Parliament shows that this Government is accountable to the people and respects the House.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear!
Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, if this Government were not accountable and did not respect this House, it would have been quiet about this matter. I wish to emphasise that this is not a new debt.
Hon. Opposition Members: What is it exactly?
Mr B. Mpundu: You are reading.
Mr Chabinga: I am entitled to read.
Interruptions
Mr Chabinga: Let me speak freely.
Interruptions
Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, may I be protected.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Can we allow the Leader of the Opposition to debate. He is entitled to refer to copious notes.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, we need to be accurate. When people speak off the cuff, we will start hearing some people speak about Tonse Alliance and UKA, but we are not interested in that. We are here to speak to the Budget. This is a very serious Motion.
Madam Speaker, I wish to emphasise that this is not a new debt as Parliament already approved debt in the 2024 Budget. One of the factors that have necessitated the amendment to the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan is the slight increase in the interest rate. I do not know why we should waste time with too many people to debate on this matter. I want to correct the misinformation circulating that this is a new loan; it is not. Let us be factual. Let us tell Zambians the truth.
Hon. Government Members: Hear!
Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, I want to stress that you have followed the law as provided in the Constitution that, the President or two-thirds of Members of Parliament can summon the House to consider a specific matter. There was no issue that required a special sitting of the House before, but now that a need has arisen, it is within the law for you to have summoned a special sitting of the House to deal with this issue.
Interruptions
Mr Chabinga: Madam Speaker, this issue is very straightforward, so I do not want to talk much. I support and second the Motion.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Order!
I know that it is exciting to come back after we adjourned. So, everyone wants to talk.
Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, –
Hon. Government Members: Hammer!
Mr Amutike: Free education!
Mr Mwene: Hammer m’chaha. Amubabulelele!
Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I am grateful to you for giving me the opportunity to debate this straightforward Motion on behalf of the people of Luena. The Motion has been ably moved by the hon. Member for Moomba and seconded by the hon. Member for Kafulafuta.
Madam Speaker, the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan we are approving today is yet another example of the high levels of transparency that this Government has brought to the governance and the financial affairs of this nation. The nation will be reminded that the power conferred on the Government to borrow, guarantee, or commit the nation to any financial transaction is derived from the Constitution in Article 207. The past regimes decided to not bring the law that would prescribe how borrowing was going to be done to the House. However, this Government did so through the Public Debt Management Act, which was passed by this House in 2022. As a result, today we have the special sitting of the House to look at the second amendment to the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. This is unprecedented in the history of the nation because of the high level of transparency in this Government. In the past, the nation used to hear of how money was borrowed on its behalf only when lenders were chasing after us to pay back the debt.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Anakoka: In fact, at some point when lenders asked us to make good on our obligations as a nation, our leaders then simply told them ‘go wherever you want to go, we are not paying.’ As a result, Zambia suffered the shame of being the first nation post the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) to default on its debt obligations. To this day, we should be holding our heads in shame because of this. To ensure that we do not suffer such kind of shame again, this Government is doing the right thing by asking the people’s representatives to approve amendments to any financial obligations that the Government wants to enter into.
Madam Speaker, like you correctly guided, we are not procuring a new loan. Therefore, no one should misguide the people of Zambia. The people must be notified that they already approved the loan through the House in 2023, and the loan was amended in June 2024. Now, due to some changes, we need to make amendments to the loan. Firstly, we need to amend the amount to borrow. Thank goodness, we are not increasing but reducing the amount to borrow. So, that is a lower debt burden for the people of Zambia. Secondly, we are amending the loan from a concessional one to a non-concessional one, but the good news is that it is not a commercial loan.
Mr Amutike: They do not know the difference. Explain it to them, please.
Mr Anakoka: It means that the loan is cheaper than it would be if it were a commercial loan. This is highly beneficial to us as a nation.
Madam Speaker, since this House already approved the loan, and programmes are being implemented by the Executive, all we are supposed to do as the House is approve the Motion and the report presented by the Budgeting and Planning Committee so that the financial affairs of the nation can be closed on a balanced note.
Madam Speaker, let me talk about accountability. We have now gone twelve months dealing with the effects of the drought, and we are going into another year while still reeling from the effects of the terrible drought we suffered. Some of the financial commitments that the Government has made, like drought relief assistance, need to be financed through the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan that we need to approve today. It does not end there. The health sector and the improvement of the public financial management system require us to exercise accountability by approving the plan. From where I sit as the representative of the people of Luena, I see no controversy at all. I see no discrepancies at all.
Mr Amutike: We see transparency.
Mr Anakoka: I see transparency being exercised at the highest level.
Madam Speaker, with those few words, I would like to say that I fully support the approval of the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan, with all the attendant benefits it will bring to the financial health of the nation.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I am happy to see you.
Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Panning wants to borrow US$108 million from the African Development Bank (AfDB). The gist of the story is that the hon. Minister planned to borrow US$150 million from the AfDB, but the bank said that it can give the hon. Minister only US$108 million. So, it is not the hon. Minister who has reduced the amount; it is the bank.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister wanted to borrow a concessional loan, but the bank said ‘No, the risk of lending you money is too high. So, I can only give you the loan at the rate of 6 per cent interest.’
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the amount that the hon. Minister initially wanted to borrow has been reduced by US$42 million. Let me just say a few things about the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. Firstly, the loan is now on new terms. It is a non-concessional loan, meaning that the terms of the loan are different from what the United Party for National Development (UPND) committed to with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in the extended credit facility programme. This is a new debt because the terms of the debt are different from what we initially approved. If the hon. Minister does not borrow the money, the 2024 Budget may be judged to have been poorly executed by the IMF, and that is the problem. If the IMF judges the 2024 Budget to have been poorly executed, the fourth tranche of the US$188 million will not be disbursed to the Government. That means many things will be affected, including the balance of payment. This information is clearly in the Committee’s report that I looked at. Now, the hon. Minister is worried about the assessment of the IMF, but he is going to borrow against the commitment that he made to the IMF to borrow a concessional loan. I have a problem with that because it is contradictory.
Mr B. Mpundu: That is the problem.
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I do not know if the IMF can be concerned about only US$108 million. The hon. Minister has moved K25 billion from the Budget to other areas, but the IMF is not concerned. The only way that the IMF will not disburse US$188 million is if the hon. Minister does not borrow this small amount of money. I am very sad that this is how the UPND looks at these matters.
Ms Sefulo: Question!
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleague talked about transparency. This report from my friend, Hon. Chaatila, says that stakeholders made submissions. Do we know who those stakeholders are? It is the Parliamentary Budget Office and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning is the borrower while the Parliamentary Budget Office is Parliament. So, which stakeholders is the report talking about? What transparency is the Government talking about?
Mr B. Mpundu: Which transparency?
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, when you talk about serious matters, you need to show that you are really serious. I think that having zero stakeholders does not show accountability or transparency, so the UPND Government must stop using those terms. I wonder whether the recommendations we have been giving to the UPND Government have been taken into account, because the Government now wants to borrow only US$108 million. If you take out the US$82 million that was paid by mistake by ZESCO Limited to an institution out of the country from US$108 million, you will remain with only US$26 million.
Mr Katakwe: Question!
Mr Kafwaya: You say that we will still have a shortfall of US$26 million, but the UPND Government forgave US$1 billion in taxes for a mining company and asked it to pay only US$23 million. Would the Government have come here to ask to borrow US$108 million if it had not forgiven that amount for a mining company? It would never have come here to ask for US$108 million.
Mr Katakwe: You cannot understand.
Mr Kafwaya: Speaking for myself, I consider the adjustment of the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan as reckless. I consider it injudicious, and I have no capacity to support it. This is chicken change for a country that has many resources and a lot of money flowing out of the country through illicit financial flows. The amounts of illicit financial flows are very well documented. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning knows that plugging the gaps and tying up the loose ends to stop money going out of the country is important because when that happens, he will never have to borrow money.
Interruptions
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am being asked why I never did that. I was not the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I am speaking to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!
Let us have order. Allow the hon. Member for Lunte to debate, and you will have an opportunity to respond. So, do not debate while seated. We need order.
The hon. Member for Lunte may continue.
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, thank you for your protection. My hon. Colleagues think that some of the views I am projecting are not in the report, but I read the whole report and I can tell them that the report is contradictory. It is contradictory in the sense that the Committee said that the matter we are dealing with is an exception and it does not expect the matter to recur. Nevertheless, I will go ahead and support the Motion for the Government to borrow. I am sorry to say that if this is the way we are going to operate as a country, creating conditions and then turning around and saying ‘okay, we will do this particular thing and then no more,’ we have big problems. Only the UPND can accept this kind of thinking. I do not support the amendment of the already amended 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. The people of Lunte are saying that it is time the Government stopped borrowing small amounts of money because large sums of money are being stolen from the country through illicit financial flows because of a careless, non-caring Government that is on its way out.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, there is nothing wrong with borrowing. Even the richest country in the world, the United States of America (USA), borrows. What is important is to plan well. Was the loan we are talking about in the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan? The answer is yes. The same person who is criticising the amendment of the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan approved the plan. Initially, loans used to be taken even at resorts, and people did not know what the loans were for. This Government has brought sanity by saying that Parliament must approve every loan, and that is why we are here. This system is new. The hon. Member who is just from debating said that this is reckless borrowing. How is it reckless when we all sat here to approve the loan? We approved it, we okayed it. The hon. Member also said that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has a problem, but the IMF has given the go-ahead. This is not a new loan. We all sat here and approved it, including the previous speaker. If you are arguing, go and read the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan and you will find the loan there.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kamboni: The hon. Member said that he read the report. Yes, he read it, but he did not study it.
Laughter
Mr Kamboni: There is a difference between reading and understanding.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kamboni: The difference is: Who understood the report? What am I saying? I am saying that this is the way a modern Government should run, with transparency. Even in our homes, we do this. There is nothing strange about budgeting. We do it in our homes and everywhere else. We sat in this honourable House and approved the loan.
Madam Speaker, why did the process to bring the revised plan to the House delay? It is because we had men of wisdom getting a better deal for us. They got a better deal for the country. We are not like them, who borrowed to a level that they defaulted on the first instalment. They borrowed without a plan, and when they were asked to pay the first instalment, they failed. However, they still stand and criticise men of integrity who sat down to consider the needs of the country. There are loans we can rush to get, but this Government did not get Eurobonds because they are expensive. The Government sat down and negotiated the period of repayment, looking at what will remain for the country when repayments are made. This is why we are here wearing suits. We are here because what has happened is beautiful.
Madam Speaker, the people on the left have been making news on social media, asking why Parliament has been recalled. They are saying that the United Party for National Development (UPND) has failed. No, this is a new system and it is constitutional. We introduced it ourselves so that there is accountability because we represent the people. It is not only the Executive deciding but the whole country. We agreed to do this. The Government had very good negotiations and that is why we are here to make sure that what was agreed is done, but then someone comes here and says that this is reckless borrowing. I think that we should use words correctly. You see, sometimes you may say something serious but no one will take you seriously. If something is planned in the Budget and you spend accordingly, that is not reckless expenditure. Let me make a point of correction. This is not reckless borrowing; it is borrowing according to the plan. Some might ask why we have taken long to get the loan. We have taken long because we wanted to negotiate and get the best deal. If you rush, you crush. If you rush, you make many people casualties. Do not do that. Take your time to negotiate and get the best deal. This is exactly what we have done. Even if you are in the Opposition, it is not a bad idea to pat us on the back and say, ‘job well done.’ We need that. I am sure that when Binwell Mpundu comes to debate, he will pat us on the back and say that we have done a fantastic job.
Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and all those hon. Members of Parliament involved in approving the loan. They have done a good job. I sincerely, 100 per cent support the loan. Like the hon. Leader of the Opposition said, there is no point in arguing because this is a straightforward case. It is our baby, we bore it ourselves. We produced it ourselves. Now, we are just letting the baby out to the public. We are part of the baby because we were part of the production. We are now saying ‘here is the baby we made.’ Now, it is out for use.
Madam Speaker, I do not have much to say. I just want to thank the Committee for doing a good job. The hon. Member who just debated said that we did not consult stakeholders. Do we not know that Committees call witnesses? The witnesses are the stakeholders.
Interruptions
Mr Kamboni: Let me finish. The Committee calls stakeholders like the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) and many institutions to make ...
Mr B. Mpundu: Awe!
Mr Kamboni: ... submissions.
Those are the major stakeholders. They are intellectual stakeholders. So, you cannot say that no stakeholder was consulted on this loan. That is completely wrong.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!
Mr Kamboni: All the witnesses who were called accepted that we needed to borrow. They made their submissions, so you cannot say that stakeholders were not involved.
Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the Committee, and all the hon. Members of Parliament who approved the loan from the beginning to the end. I also thank all the stakeholders who came as witnesses. I do not have much to say so let us vote to approve the Budget.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as you listen to the debate, restrain yourselves from debating while seated. Each hon. Member is given an opportunity to debate. What you can do is listen to the hon. Member debating. If you have any points, write them down. I will give as many hon. Members as possible a chance to debate. Please, avoid repeating yourselves.
Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, from the outset, I support the amendment to the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, this special meeting of the House has been called as a result of the Public Debt Management Act of 2022 that we passed in the House. So, I do not understand why people are not happy. Hon. Members of Parliament must be happy that they are being consulted on debt because in the past, the decision to incur debt was made in offices by three people.
Hon. PF Members: Question!
Mr Wamunyima: Madam Speaker, I was privileged to sit on the Select Committee on debt management. We borrowed US$45 million for a cashew nut project in March 2016 from the African Development Bank (AfDB). That was a five-year project in the Western Province. What happened to that project? Now, we expect the AfDB to have so much faith in Zambia. I was in Paris, France for a meeting on the sideline when there were issues to do with debt restructuring. We must not politicise debt. I understand that the debt has been changed from a non-concessional loan to a concessional one. We must look at the credibility that we have as a country. Where we are coming from, we had debt stress. I choose to look at this issue differently. Perhaps, through the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, we must interrogate the question: Is this an opportunity to look at the Act that we passed, the Public Debt Management Act, so that we are clear on what we have to do when the terms of a loan are changed? Should we put a clause in the Act to limit the amount of times we can amend the annual borrowing plan to protect ourselves from unnecessary things? Those are some of the progressive conversations we must have.
Madam Speaker, it is critical for us to demonstrate the ability to fully execute this year’s Budget. We need the K188 million extended credit facility from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). We went to the IMF because there had been reckless borrowing in the past. There is no need to politic about debt. We spent three weeks interrogating the debt. We do not know what most of the debt from the past was for. What was the Eurobond spent on? As a country, we are in this position to interrogate the debt we have to get because we are coming from a regime that borrowed recklessly.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Wamunyima: We cannot expect financial institutions to trust the country. In fact, we are being over-trusted. How did the previous Government spend US$45 million on a cashew nut project in the Western Province? The project is not there anymore. The plants for the project were bought from Tanzania. Year in, year out, people explain the cashew nut project. For me, borrowing is necessary. Of course, the loan we are about to get is slightly expensive. We need to do away with debt. How do we do away with debt? It is by ensuring that we have the money to finance the activities we seek to implement. If we do not have the money to finance the Budget, how can we lobby for additional non-concessional debt?
Madam Speaker, I would like to unconditionally support the Motion. The report has cautioned us on the main issues. The amount of the loan has dropped from US$150 million to US$108 million. This is a very peculiar situation because we are at the end of the year. So, what should we do? Should we start looking for additional cheaper debt? We do not have that. We need to demonstrate budget credibility. With the extended credit facility, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has to demonstrate that he is fully executing the Budget. I would like to commend the mover of the Motion for ably moving it. This shows that the debt is critical for the country. Imagine the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning deciding to acquire debt at his office. That should not be the case.
Madam Speaker, I would like to propose that we have a strategic plan or include a clause in the Public Debt Management Act on what should happen when loan conditions change. Should we increase the debt, or can we say that the annual borrowing plan should be amended only three or two times? I think that those are some of the issues we need to critically look at. We cannot say that Zambia should not borrow because we do not have resources. Local revenue has dropped because of the energy crisis. There are so many factors that have brought us to this situation, but as a country, we must demonstrate that we are giving the debt process transparency, or providing checks and balances. That is the way it should be.
Madam Speaker, I unconditionally support the Motion. Hopefully, as time goes on, our economy will be able to finance some of our activities in the Budget.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this important Motion. Let me thank my colleague, Hon. Chaatila, for ably –
Mr Kafwaya crossed the Floor.
Madam Speaker: Order, Order!
Hon. Member for Lunte, you were given an opportunity to debate.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Lunte, today, you should not go out. You should listen to the people debating.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Laughter
Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa continue.
Mr Mwambazi: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate. From the outset, let me say that I support the Motion.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwambazi: Why do I support it? First and foremost, I want to put certain things in context.
Madam Speaker, when a person applies for a loan, but it is deferred, the base rate changes when the person gets the loan at a later date. Does that constitute a new loan? No. So, let us be categorical and factual when we bring matters to the House. This is not a new loan. Let me talk about transparency. We invited stakeholders to make submissions on the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan, and they did. We debated and approved it. When we want to amend the loan, should we call the stakeholders again to come and discuss the interest rate? We cannot do that. So, transparency is bringing the Motion to amend the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan to the House so that we, the lawmakers, debate.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwambazi: This has never happened before.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwambazi: We need to give credit where it is due. We are now approving loans in this House. That never used to happen, as my hon. Colleagues have mentioned. I just wanted to put that in context before I proceed.
Madam Speaker, the other issue I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is the need to harmonise the Public Debt Management Act. In the region, there is a model law on public financial management, which looks at how to manage public debt in our various jurisdictions. It is very important to look at all the things happening in the region so that we can come up with what is best for our country.
Madam Speaker, the Committee’s report has highlighted important things. We are looking at concessional loans. We are not going to borrow from the Zambian market. So, we need to pay the interest rates that are on the market we are going to borrow from. Are we going to borrow from our own market? No, we are going to borrow from the African Development Bank (AfDB), and the bank has its own terms. The bank told us that during a particular window, we can borrow money at 2.7 per cent interest. That window closed, but another one has opened. Finance costs are not static; they change because the dynamics in the world also change. The bank has told us that what is available now is a non-concessional loan with a fixed interest rate. We need to improve our fiscal space and manage finances better. When we do that, there will be growth in the economy and our debt will be sustainable. Some people are saying that they want the Government to get a loan with interest below a certain rate. We cannot find that loan on the market. So, I commend the people who went and negotiated the loan we are talking about today. The grace period for the loan we approved earlier was five years and maturity was ten years. The grace period for the new loan is eight years. What else can one get on the market?
Hon. UPND Members: Ask them!
Mr Mwambazi: The grace period for the loan is eight years, maturity is twenty-five years, and the interest rate is fixed at 6 per cent. What better rate can we get? Some of you get kaloba at 50 per cent or 40 per cent interest.
Madam Speaker, why has this Motion come back to the House? It is because we need to amend the loan because of the interest rate. There is nothing to politic about. We can agree and move together. Bridges, the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), the Electronic-Voucher (e-Voucher) System, and many other issues need to be financed. The same people speaking against the loan complain that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is not funded. Where will the money to fund it come from? We have to borrow at a reasonable rate to finance such programmes. Let us not look at politics; let us be prudent. Leave those things to us accountants because we understand them. We can debate and analyse them. If you do not know something, ask. That is why we are here. I have compared and contrasted the two loans. Look at the grace period. The grace period will help us to stabilise our fiscal space, okay. This issue is not for a Grade 7 or a diploma holder. Let us be professional and address these issues. Look at the debt service ratio or debt sustainability. An assessment has been done showing that we can get the loan at 6 per cent interest but still stabilise our fiscal space, which is very important. If the country comes to a standstill, the same people will ask why the Government allowed the situation to come to a standstill. Prudent management of funds requires that we debate, analyse, look at the ratios, the deviation, the maturity period, and the repayment period before we say that the loan is good and will cushion us from the pressure we have. We inherited a wrecked economy. So, we need to make bold decisions to stay afloat and start recovering. That is how graphs move.
Madam Speaker, I support the Motion. We need to ensure that our infrastructure like bridges and programmes like the CDF are funded through the loan, which is not far-fetched or too expensive. It is like a concessional loan because of the grace period and the repayment period. If you understand finance, you cannot argue against this. However, if you just want to politic, we will leave you to politic.
Laughter
Mr Mwambazi: Madam Speaker, I support the Motion.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to make a few comments on this very interesting Motion.
Madam Speaker, we must understand why the hon. Minister has come back for the second time to amend the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. I remember speaking to these issues earlier in the year. The hon. Minister has come back to this august House to ask us to amend the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan that we approved. Last time, he requested to borrow US$150 million. According to him, the loan was in line with the medium-term undertakings and commitments, and it was going to be a non-concessional loan. Now, he is saying that the window through which he was going to contract the US$150 million is not available. So, the loan has to be reduced, and the loan conditions have to be different. That is what I am concerned about. After twenty-five years, none of us will be here when the debt commitments we are making today will be due.
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we must be mindful that we are in a very difficult space. I realise that what the hon. Minister is doing is in breach of the Government’s medium-term conditions that it set for itself. Today is 18th December, 2024 –
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, today is 17th December, 2024.
Mr Kampyongo: Thank you for the correction.
Madam Speaker, that means we have about only ten working days before the fiscal year ends. I like my hon. Colleague, and I can confirm that he has been in the public accounting systems so he understands the practical challenge we are going to face by contracting the debt now. Let me look at the hon. Minister’s rationale. He said that the loan will enable the Government to finance the 2024 Budget deficit in order to fully implement the various development programmes and priorities in the 2024 Budget. Further, he stated that not contracting the loan will create a financing gap in the 2024 Budget. The week we adjourned sine die, the hon. Minister brought the Supplementary Budget. I stood here and asked him how he had made savings that accounted for 76.4 per cent of the revenue that he got for the Supplementary Budget. He assured us that he had made savings in this fiscal year. Now, we are being told that not contracting the loan will put us in a predicament. Which position should we get? We need consistency. The activities to be supported by the loan have been highlighted in the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. A week ago, the hon. Minister said that he had made savings, meaning that excess money was mopped up and channelled to certain expenditures lines in the Budget. How then can we believe that if the loan is not contracted, the performance of the Budget will be negatively affected? These are the realities we should be speaking to. When we, as people’s representatives ask questions, we want to hear the hon. Minister consistently speak to his people. I have just talked about the period remaining in the year. Anyone who knows how the Government spends money will tell you that it is not practically possible to approve the loan today and then have the Government start disbursing the money to fund the Budget lines. It is practically impossible to do that. The hon. Minister is supposed to be winding up his books for the 2024 fiscal year.
Hon. Government Members: How!
Mr Kampyongo: You might not know, but I am telling you because I have been a part of the Government before.
Interruptions
Mr Kampyongo: Let the hon. Minister explain.
Mr Simumba: Tell them.
Mr Kampyongo: The hon. Minister said that he delayed to bring the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan to the House because of the negotiations. How then do we expect the money to be disbursed within the remaining period? The hon. Minister came with the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan earlier in the year, so we had enough time. These are the real issues we should speak to. The hon. Minister also highlighted that the proposal was going to affect the International Monetary Fund (IMF) plan. We are here debating the proposal to borrow money, but we heard him announce that the country has already agreed with IMF on the fourth tranche.
Madam Speaker, we are contracting a loan that generations to come will have to handle. After twenty-five years, none of us, including my brother Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, will be here. The turnaround time here is ten years. So, we should not be deciding for future generations in this manner. The conditions of the loan have shifted, and that is a matter of concern I would like the hon. Minister to speak to. That is what we are discussing. If it was ordinary, he would not have come back for amendments.
Madam Speaker, last time, I said that your institution is key and must be funded adequately. Your Committee had budgetary constraints and very limited time to scrutinise the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan and engage the stakeholders who should have been engaged. It is important that the hon. Minister starts prioritising this institution because that is where pertinent decisions are made. Of course, we would not have done what my hon. Colleagues suggested because these are matters of the law. We need to operate within the confines of the law. It is not prudent that we went back to our constituencies and then we have come back to the House like this. What should have been cheaper is now expensive. So, my plea is that let this institution be adequately funded in order to discharge its oversight functions properly.
Madam Speaker, I know that the people on the right are obviously going to pass the loan, but I want the hon. Minister to speak to the practicality –
Madam Speaker: Order!
The hon. Member’s time expired.
Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to add my voice on this Motion on behalf of the people of Mwandi.
Madam Speaker, let me begin by saying that, it is important that we understand where we are coming from for us to understand where we are going. I remember very well that when I joined this Parliament, the country was choking on the debt that was contracted by the same people who are talking about the non-concessional loan today. When the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) left power, it left about US$1 billion debt. When the Patriotic Front (PF) left the Government, the country’s debt was more than US$13 billion. We do not know what the PF did with the debt it contracted. We cannot even point at what the debt achieved in the country. So, for us to discuss this report wholly, we need to understand where we are coming from, where we are, and where we are going.
Madam Speaker, there is nothing unusual about what is being discussed today with regard to the loan we need to borrow. The loan was already approved in our 2024 Budget by this Parliament. What we are discussing here is an amendment. We are the same hon. Members of Parliament who approved the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. Today, we are here to just discuss amendments to the loan that we already approved. Let me take this opportunity to thank the Government of the United Party for National Development (UPND) for bringing the Motion.
Hon. Members of Parliament never used to sit like this to approve external debts. Debts were contracted in lodges and places that I cannot even mention in Parliament.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, it is this Government that has operationalised the Public Debt Management Act for us to sit here and approve debt. I am calling on all Zambians to take keen interest in this matter. Zambians are now aware of the debt that is going to be contracted on their behalf before it is even contracted. Before, we heard about debt only when the Government defaulted. That is when we learnt about the debt that had been contracted on our behalf. So, the New Dawn Government has done a very progressive thing. In the previous Government, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana would not have known that the Government was planning to contract debt.
Laughter
Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, that was on a lighter note. You can see that he is very happy to debate on behalf of the people of Nkana.
Laughter
Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, let me come back to the reason we are contracting the debt. We are debating as though Zambia is closing. Is Zambia closing on 31st December, that we will neglect the people of Zambia?
Mr Kafwaya rose.
Ms Sefulo: Hon. Kafwaya, sit. I want you to hear me.
Laughter
Ms Sefulo: Sit, I want you to hear me.
Laughter
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!
Hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte, please, sit next to the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi so that you can listen to her.
Laughter
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, we have days remaining before the end of the year. Are we closing Zambia? Is Zambia closing? Are the projects we are undertaking under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) closing on 31st December? Is that the issue, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning? Is Zambia closing, so we cannot get debt to sustain the projects we have already started? In Mwandi, there are CDF projects that we started in 2024 that need to be continued. Zambia is not closing. So, we cannot say that there are sixteen days remaining before the end of the year and, therefore, we cannot get the loan. We are not closing. We still have to deliver services to the people of Zambia.
Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for bringing the Motion. I had to travel to come and be in this Parliament to approve the loan on behalf of the people of Mwandi. The reason that the Motion has taken time to be brought to the House is that discussions were happening. We now have eight years grace period for the loan. That was negotiated by the able hon. Minister and his team. They have also taken us out of the debt situation that was choking us. The hon. Member is listening attentively (pointed at Mr Kafwaya). We were in a debt situation that was choking us.
Mr Amutike: Kafwaya, you are choking us.
Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for negotiating for the loan to be repaid in twenty-five years. One thing I have learned is that insoni e buntu. When it comes to debt, there are people I do not expect to come on the Floor of the House to discuss it because they put Zambians in debt that choked us. The Eurobond debt they got choked us, but those people want to give us advice now. How can we take that advice?
Madam Speaker, I support the Motion. Zambians need to know that the loan we are going to contract will not be mismanaged. It is going to help my people in Mwandi. Today, the New Dawn Government is paying households K800 to help our people to not starve. So, why should we not get the loan on the people’s behalf? People should just sit and not eat? People are waiting to receive the K800 every month. Every month, they need to be given that money. As a Member of Parliament, before Parliament goes on recess, I also expect to receive my pay. Can I say that I should not get paid because the year is coming to a close? No, I am still going to pay my tithe and the country has to go on. When students open schools, they also expect to get their loans. Even free education and CDF projects have to continue. The country is not closing. The country is a going concern. Those who passed accounting know that.
Madam Speaker, I want to say that I support the amendment to the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. From here, I can hear that the hon. Member for Sesheke and the hon. Member for Katombola also support it. As I look around, I can see that some hon. Members who were not in support of the Motion earlier are now very happy after hearing that the money will go to their constituencies.
Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I support the Motion.
I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte for listening attentively.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, clearly, the Motion that the mover has brought before the House is for us to consider the amendment of the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan.
Madam Speaker, on page 5, item number two, the report says as follows:
“Urgency of the Loan Contraction
The hon. Minister submitted that the loan was part of the overall resource envelope to meet the expenditure in the 2024 Budget. The proceeds from the loan were for Budget support. Therefore, a number of expenditures that were linked to the loan would not be funded if the loan was not contracted.”
Madam Speaker, the loan we are here to pass today is something that we already agreed upon. If possible, I suggest that we amend our laws to ensure that there is no need for Parliament to reconvene for loans that have already been passed. Nevertheless, because of the transparency that has been exhibited by the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, we are here today. This is how it should be. Another feature that people should pay attention to is on page 4, which is to increase the grace period and maturity of the loan.
Hon. Colleagues, this is the reason that some of us support President Hakainde Hichilema. It is because of such ingenuity. Imagine being told to pay a loan in twenty years, when you were supposed to pay it in two years. Some people are saying that is deferring the problem, but by then, the Government would have built the capacity to easily repay the loan. We should be paying attention. What is the Government doing to ensure that the economic fundamentals are stabilised? Read the International Monetary Fund (IMF) report.
Dr Musokotwane left the Assembly Chamber.
Mr Mung’andu: I know the hon. Minister is walking out of the House, but I would like to thank him because the fourth payment of the official credit facility has just been approved by the IMF. The IMF report is very clear, and it has acknowledged the things that we have not acknowledged, such as the effect that the drought had on our economy. There are signs of another drought. Maybe it rained in other parts of the country but it is not raining in Lusaka. This fact has been acknowledged. As Hon. Chabinga indicated, the Government has our support. Enhanced resource mobilisation has also been acknowledged. Yes, there are so many factors that limit resource mobilisation. This Government thanks you when you do the correct thing. It has put measures in place. I think that beginning January, those exporting goods or sending money above US$2,000 need clearance. Read what the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) and the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) has put in place. If they do not obtain clearance, they will be fined penalties. That is one way to mobilise resources, as captured in this report. I agree with Hon. Kamboni that it is important not only to read the reports but also to study them. The measures in the report will curb illicit financial flows from our country to other jurisdictions.
Madam Speaker, yes, we are debating for the sake of debate. A lot is needed in our constituencies. A number of us have come back to approve the loan. We will approve it because it has been negotiated well by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. This is how loans should be contracted.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, the report has also indicated that the loan anchors the US$183 million that the Government has unlocked from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) for us to stabilise our economic fundamentals. I will speak in simple terms. You borrow a K10 that you are supposed to repay in four months. Then, someone negotiates that instead of paying back the K10 in four months, you should pay 0.05n for the next ten years. That is good. I wish all debts were treated this way because they would be manageable. We should not even consider it as a debt. As others have said, in the past, we tried to move a Motion to urge the Government then, my Government, to allow the House to start approving loans, but we were whipped. If Hon. Jamba Machila were here, he would have mentioned this. Now, we have a Government that agrees that debt should be approved by the House. The Government has shown transparency, commitment, and accountability. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has my support on behalf of the people of Chama South. Those who are mentioning people who are not here, let them research. Let them go to Chama South; they will be shocked.
Interruptions
Mr Mung’andu: In that chiefdom, I win 100 per cent votes but I do not campaign.
Madam Speaker, the people of Chama South are very excited about the Cash for Work programme. I am happy to see the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services. The people have not been receiving the money under the programme because the bank involved has misfortunes, but I want to assure them that working with the council, we will change the bank so that they can start getting the money. I am sure that the ministry would like to scale up expenditure or such activities for our people.
Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I support the report. I will always be there to support good programmes.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Thank you.
Hon. Members, it looks like we are just debating for the sake of debating. We are repeating ourselves. The hon. Member for Nkana has been debating while seated, so I will use my discretion and ask him to debate. Please, do not repeat what others have said.
Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate.
Madam Speaker, I want to start by saying that we must first of all take away the unnecessary debate as to whether our meeting today is supported by the law. Our meeting today is within the law. The question is: Why are we here? The Speaker wrote to us to come back from leave because we need to discuss this matter. In October 2023, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning presented the National Budget for 2024 alongside the Annual Borrowing Plan, in which plan he indicated that we were going to borrow K16 billion internally. He also asked us to support the proposal to borrow US$416 million externally. This year, in July, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning came back and asked us to adjust the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. He adjusted the debt to borrow internally from K16 billion to K22 billion. He also asked us to support the proposal to adjust the amount to borrow externally from US$416 million to US$907 million. That is where we should start from. In the proposal by the hon. Minister to borrow US$907 million, there was US$150 million that should have come from the African Development Bank (AfDB) on concessional terms.
Madam Speaker, our friends in the United Party for National Development (UPND) have been around markets, towns, and on anthills castigating previous Governments for their insatiable appetite for borrowing.
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr B. Mpundu: Let me state that we are not being asked to revisit the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan in which the loan we are talking about was intended to be a concessional one. Now, it will be a commercial loan because we have borrowed at around 6 per cent interest. That must be stated in clear terms. I want to thank Hon. Mwambazi for saying that this debate should be left to accountants, like me.
Interruptions
Mr B. Mpundu: Instead of going to town, let me give a clear context.
Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, Zambia implements –
Interruptions
Mr B. Mpundu: Let me say this. Please, follow me because this is technical.
Ms Sefulo: Continue!
Mr B. Mpundu: Over time, Zambia has adopted, let me say, traditionally a static fiscal framework.
Mr Amutike: You are not an accountant.
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, this is now technical. Over time, we have adopted a static fiscal framework. Our budgetary process has been static. Other countries such as the United States (US) make a rolling budget, which means that at any time, the House can convene to look at the budget. We sit at a particular time to carefully plan our Budget for a specific timeframe. Therefore, it means that as we plan our expenditure, we also plan our income.
Madam Speaker, let me say here that what we are witnessing today is fiscal chaos. I can classify two symptoms of poor fiscal management. The first is poor revenue projection, and the second is a lack of contingency planning. We are here because of a lack of contingency planning. If the hon. Minister had planned for contingency, we would not be here. He would have foreseen that some of our lenders would turn around, like what the AfDB has done. If the hon. Minister had been aware of the proper revenue projections, we would not be sitting here. Let us ask ourselves a question about borrowing: Why should we, as a country, borrow? I have been asking this question for some time. As many have said, borrowing is not wrong. I am surprised today that the UPND hon. Members stood and said that there is nothing wrong with borrowing. These people were all over town castigating their friends in the previous Governments for borrowing. Sadly, today, they are asking us to borrow not a concessional loan but a commercial one with about 6 per cent interest. We want to borrow US$108 million. Let me remind the House that Zambia defaulted on its debt in 2020. In 2020, Zambia applied for a Debt Service Suspension Initiative (DSSI), and it was granted. It means that from 2020, Zambia was not expected to service any debt. Today, we want to borrow US$108 million, but an institution called ZESCO Limited paid US$82 million to an entity outside the country, at a period when Zambia had suspended debt servicing.
Interruptions
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, that tells you that there is a lot of recklessness in the management of our financial resources in the country. This company transferred US$82 million by mistake without approval from the ministry or the Secretary to the Treasury, yet the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is asking us to borrow a commercial loan of US$108 million at 6 per cent interest. This Government is asking us to continue borrowing when people in Government institutions are committing crimes all over. We heard that Permanent Secretaries (PSs) in the Ministry of Health are awarding themselves contracts.
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Nkana!
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, –
Madam Speaker: Order!
I guided that if you make a statement that touches on something, we should be able to verify it. So, hon. Member, do not talk about things that you cannot verify.
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, interestingly, the things I speak about are all over and on record. We are being asked to borrow when there is recklessness going on. People are abrogating the law, including making transfers without approvals. Let me say this and, please, forgive me. I think that ba UPND nabatudelela.
Mr Amutike: Time up!
Laughter
Madam Speaker: Order!
Mr B. Mpundu: If the hon. Members in the UPND were serious, they would have not come to ask us to borrow money.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Nkana, in the report, is there anything written ‘ba UPND nabatudelela’?
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, nabatubelesha because there is no way –
Madam Speaker: Where is that written in the report? Stick to the report.
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I am now concluding. We cannot be a country that has an institution that can send US$82 million erroneously, but we are asked to convene as Parliamentarians to approve the proposal to borrow US$108 million.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Nkana, you have debated that issue even on social media. Please, the best you can do is verify that information before you –
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, it has been verified.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Nkana, I am guiding you. You have debated that issue on social media; I saw the video. Please, verify your facts before you mislead the nation.
Mr B. Mpundu rose.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nkana, I am still speaking.
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, let me conclude.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nkana, I am still speaking.
Mr B. Mpundu resumed his seat.
Madam Speaker: Please, verify your facts before you end up misleading the whole nation.
You may conclude.
Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I am a sad man today. Like I said last time, we have been recalled from our break and we came dressed in good suits to come and support a proposal to continue borrowing. Sadly, this is a departure from the proposal to borrow at concessional terms. Now, we have to borrow a commercial loan because of a lack of confidence by our co-operating partners in the ability of the UPND Government to manage its finances. The loan has also been adjusted from US$150 million to US$108 million.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Amutike: Hammer, hammer! Proper accountant!
Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House. This Motion is overwhelmingly supported by most of us well-meaning hon. Members of Parliament. You heard the hon. Members from the Opposition, led by the Leader of the Opposition, support the Motion. A few of them are shooting down the Motion without information.
Madam Speaker, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the provisions of the Public Debt Management Act No. 15 of 2022, which was assented to on 9thAugust, 2022. Since I heard some hon. Members, especially the hon. Member for Nkana say that these issues are technical, I will be a little technical but I will provide evidence from the law. The reason we are here is the very Act I have cited. The Act is meant to provide for raising of loans and grants, issuing of guarantees, and approval of loans by the National Assembly. Which National Assembly is referred to in the Act? It is this same one. The Act also provides guidance on the establishment of a sinking fund. Now, did the previous regime establish a sinking fund? I hear that there was only about K10 million in the sinking fund. The last time I checked, there was no sinking fund. Section 6 of the Act provides for the establishment of a Debt Management Office, which office is guiding this process. There were pieces of legislation in the previous regime that had so many flaws. It is no wonder that those people in that regime borrowed anyhow. You can see the overhead bridges in this city. They borrowed money for that, but I never saw them bring a Bill or a Motion here for us to look at that debt. That clearly shows how recklessly they borrowed because there were flaws in the law. It is no wonder that when we came in, we did not hesitate to pass the Act that guides the hon. Minister on how to borrow. He is on firm ground to follow what the Act actually provides.
Now, listen to this. You may argue but Part III of the Act provides for an Annual Borrowing Plan. To be specific, Section 8(2)(a) of the Public Debt Management Act provides for the Medium Term Debt Strategy. I heard someone here say that we need to have a strategy and the like; we have a debt management strategy in place, and it is reviewed on an annual basis. In Section 8(3)(a), the Act also provides for the total borrowing needs for the next financial year, which is the Annual Borrowing Plan we are reviewing. Now, where does the hon. Minister get the power to review the Annual Borrowing Plan? Section 10 of the Act gives the hon. Minister the power to do that. In fact, it specifically states that the –
Interruptions
Mr Kambita: Hon. Members, please, listen to this. You should have a culture of reading these provisions for you to understand them.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, Section 10 of the Act states as follows:
“The Minister shall submit, on a bi-annual basis, to the National Assembly an update on the implementation of the annual borrowing plan.”
Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has been here once to present the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. The hon. Member for Nkana confirmed this. I am glad he has all the facts he presented. He said that the hon. Minister presented the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan and we approved it according to the Act. He has now brought it back for us to amend it. Yes, he brought it here for amendment once. The Act gives him the power to bring the Annual Borrowing Plan here twice, so he is here the second time to ask us to look at it again. Is this within the law or outside the law?
Mr Mabeta: It is within the law.
Mr Kambita: Now, compare this with what those in the previous Government did when they got the money for building the overhead bridges. Did they come here to seek approval to borrow the money?
Hon. Government Members: No!
Mr Kambita: Now, you can see that we have demonstrated transparency according to the Act. If you read Section 8 of the Act, you will find that it has all sorts of provisions that guide the hon. Minister on how to acquire public debt. So, what we are doing here is not illegal. We have agreed on that point, which is point number one. Point number two is that what the hon. Minister has done by bringing the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan to be amended the second time is legal. The third part is that what he has brought here is not outside what was agreed; it is already in the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. Circumstances have changed, and that is also provided for in the same Act. There is a provision that if circumstances change, the hon. Minister has powers to bring the Annual Borrowing Plan to be relooked at and approval can be given by Parliament. This is the process we are going through. Ladies and gentlemen, we need to read these things. Let us not just debate from the streets, or come here to say anything and sundries.
Madam Speaker, the debate here is not so much on the semantics of why we have bought this Motion. This process is in the Act. We are following the law to the letter.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.
I am aiming at the House finishing business at 1640 hours. It appears that we are just repeating ourselves.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: We have heard enough. So, from my left, the last debater will be the hon. Member for Mufulira.
Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to debate the Motion before the House.
Madam Speaker, indeed, we are here for just one item, which is to approve the borrowing of US$108 million from the African Development Bank (AfDB) so that our National Budget for 2024 does not collapse. On page 3 of your Committee’s report, the rationale for continued borrowing is clear. I see the plea by the hon. Minister that this Motion must not fail. If it fails, our credibility for the 2024 Budget will go down. The country will have no money to fund relief efforts in drought-affected areas or support social programmes. As a Zambian, I believe that the 2024 Budget should not fail simply because of my position, but borrowing US$108 million is reckless.
Interruptions
Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, when the people in the Government were in the Opposition, I would like to remind the House that they strongly opposed such borrowing. They said that all the Eurobonds were reckless debts, and they vowed to impose a moratorium on borrowing once they formed Government.
Mr B. Mpundu: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, the first Eurobond, US$750 million, was borrowed at an interest rate of 5.37 per cent. We are now borrowing US$108 million at an interest rate of 6 per cent. If 5.37 per cent was reckless, what can we call 6 per cent, if not reckless? Why should this country struggle to raise US$108 million? The AfDB said that the US$150 million that was supposed to be borrowed on concessional terms is no longer available. When he comes to respond, I would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to tell this country why the window to borrow a concessional loan of US$150 million has been closed to Zambia. What has the country done to anger the bank, for it to throw us to the window for a non-concessional loan? This is commensurate with what we are dealing with on the commercial market. Borrowing Eurobonds at 6 per cent interest is too high. I would like to know why the AfDB has closed the window for a concessional loan and directed us to the window for a non-concessional one, which is far more expensive.
Madam Speaker, this money should be raised within Zambia. If you look at the revenue report from the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), you will see how the different revenue lines have been underperforming basically because of under-collection. Look at the income tax from different corporations in the country, such as mineral royalty and excise duty. In 2023, Zambia under-collected almost US$300 million through the ZRA. If we do not clean up our revenue collection, we should not plead with the AfDB to lend us US$108 million. We should be able to raise it ourselves. The Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) report has highlighted that funds are being externalised without regulation, yet we are stuck. We do not know where to go. At the end of the day, we have even lost US$42 million. How are we going to make up for that amount that has been cut from what we were initially supposed to borrow? Let us look at our policies and how we manage revenues. Let us deal with our main tax earner, the mining sector. That is where we should get the US$108 million, not begging the AfDB for the money. The bank has thrown us under the bus by directing us to borrow at a very high rate in a reckless manner, as the current Government once described the borrowing of the previous Government.
Hon. Government Members: Finally.
Mr Mwila: I am not done yet.
Madam Speaker, the risk of not getting this money is too high. I do not understand why the hon. Minister has put so much hope in external borrowing to finance our Budget. What is also difficult to understand is that the debt is not going to capital projects, contrary to what other people have said. The debt is for consumption. We are going to fund the Social Cash Transfer programme and put more people on it. This tells us that this country has failed to create jobs and give people the capacity to earn an income. That is why we put people on the Social Cash Transfer programme. Now, we are even going to borrow money so that we can pay them. This is a challenge for the Government. We should borrow for capital projects so that the country can improve production, create jobs, and expand the gross domestic product (GDP), not borrowing to spend it all.
Madam Speaker, I am a Zambian and a patriot so I do not wish to be part of the embarrassment that will occur if our 2024 Budget collapses because the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning failed to raise the US$150 million. We will allow him to recklessly borrow and commit the future generations of this country to debt for the next twenty-five years.
Hon. Government Member: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mwila: Those who will be here to pay back the loan we will contract today will have to find ways and means to manage the situation. Most of us will not be here to help them.
Madam Speaker, with those words, I thank you.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I did not allow points of order so that the debate can flow.
That was an accountant. Now, we will listen to a lawyer, who will followed by an accountant again. Then, the hon. Minister himself will follow.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to support the Motion that has been ably moved by the chairperson of your Committee, Hon. Chaatila.
Madam Speaker, I want to state that this Government is transparent and democratic. We do not believe in consulting witchdoctors over what we intend to do.
Laughter
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu, SC: That is not what we believe in. As a Government, we believe in adhering to the laws of the country.
Mr Kapyanga: Question!
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, I was in this House when the current Constitution was promulgated in 2015. The 2016 Constitution, which provided for debt contraction, came into effect on 5th January, 2016. From the time the law was enacted in 2016, our hon. Colleagues on your left, under the leadership of the Patriotic Front (PF), wherein my hon. Colleague Hon. Kafwaya Member of Parliament for Lunte was a Cabinet Minister –
Hon. Government Members: Kapyanga!
Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, Hon. Kafwaya indicated that this Government is not transparent, is undemocratic, and does not want to follow processes. This Government does not hide anything; we are very transparent. That is why we have come to the House as the law provides. That is what we have done. From January 2016, our hon. Colleagues refused to pass the law to provide for debt contraction. They refused on the Floor of this House. Whenever we debated on the Budget, the Planning and Budgeting Committee always referred to the provisions of Article 207. The response of the Government then to the report of the Committee was always that it was not obligated in any way to bring debt proposals to the House, despite the fact that there was a constitutional provision for that. Fortunately, the Government of President Hakainde Hichilema exudes good governance and ensures that whatever we do in this country is backed by the law. That is what we have done here.
Madam Speaker, we have been told by my colleagues, Hon. Kafwaya and the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana, that we are reckless in the way we are borrowing.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, they cannot say that this Government is reckless when it is following the processes. You cannot be reckless if you follow the law. Our hon. Colleagues in the Opposition have gone down in the history of this country as the most reckless Government …
Hon. Government Members: Hear!
Mr Mwiimbu, SC: … that ever held office in this country.
Madam Speaker, as my hon. Colleagues indicated, the people in the Opposition never followed the law. Individual hon. Ministers, without the authority of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, contracted loans on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Zambia, contrary to the law. When you do things that are contrary to the law, you are supposed to be held accountable. It is criminal to contract a loan without following procedures. If we were not considerate, we would have followed them and held them accountable for borrowing money on behalf of the people of Zambia without authority and abusing the powers they purportedly had. Our hon. Colleagues are saying that we should not have come to this House, that we should have left the US$150 million that was in the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. How can we be reckless by leaving provisions that cannot be actualised in the borrowing plan? Since we are prudent and know how to manage the affairs of the country, we have come back to the House to amend the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan. That is how it should be. During their time, the Ministry of Transport and Logistics entered into contracts that led to people being arrested. That was reckless. People were arrested over the debt that was borrowed under that ministry. I do not know who the hon. Minister for the ministry was then. I do not know him.
Laughter
Mr Mapani: Kafwaya!
Mr Amutike: Was it that one (pointed at Mr Kafwaya)?
Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, I just want to appeal to the few who are still objective to just swallow their pride and realise that this Government is prudent and transparent in the whole process. Considering that the able Leader of the Opposition has given them guidance –
Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mwiimbu, SC: It is only somebody who does not follow the rules of the House who can go against the Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition has given guidance to the hon. Members of the Opposition. They are listening quietly and they are going to vote with us.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, I said that there would be no points of order so that the debate can flow.
Mr Kafwaya: But I was mentioned.
Madam Speaker: You could have been mentioned, but you also mentioned people in your debate. Please, we do not have enough time. Let us allow the debate to continue.
The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to say a few things on this Motion.
Madam Speaker, I think that this Motion is straightforward that there is no need for notes. Among the responsibilities of this House is appropriation, and appropriation is not only about expenditure but raising revenues. As the Government, we presented a balanced Budget to this House, through the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Part of that balanced Budget was the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan, which the ministry has now decided to bring back because of the changes in the conditions from the African Development Bank (AfDB).
Madam Speaker, one of the key elements we must focus on, which many hon. Members have talked about, is the transparency of the New Dawn Government and the President of this country. We need to ensure that laws are followed in the governance of this country. That is why we have said that we are a Government of laws. First and foremost, in the application of laws, we must recognise the various arms of the Government and ensure that they play their full role. For many years, the contraction of debt was not the preserve of this House. I was a member of the Tenth National Assembly. For those who do not count, we are in the Thirteenth National Assembly. In that Assembly, we debated the need to ensure that there was parliamentary oversight in debt contraction. At that time, I was the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee so I led this debate. More than that, I think that we spread the spirit of desiring parliamentary accountability in contraction of debt to the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC). At the same time, I happened to be the President of the SADC Organisation of Public Accounts Committees (SADCOPAC). Hon. Mwambazi knows that institution. Indeed, the Constitution was passed to provide for that, but the Government of the time refused or neglected to actualise the law or to bring it here. The New Dawn Government of President Hakainde Hichilema brought the law here in 2022. As a result, today we are debating the contraction of this debt. This is not new debt because the US$150 million debt was already brought to the House. To show transparency, this Government has brought the Motion because of the mere changes in the interest rate of the debt. The money we are borrowing is not our money, so we felt it was necessary to bring the Motion to the House. All of us have been recalled from wherever we were to come and debate this issue.
Madam Speaker, many things have been said, but some of them must be corrected. What is important in debt contraction? One of the fundamental ratios is debt service to revenue. It is that ratio that defines whether the debt you are contracting is sustainable or not. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the Committee have gone to great lengths to explain that. Yes, as the Government, our desire is to contract concessional loans, but the AfDB said that the window is closed. The new window that has opened will give us the loan with interest of between 5 per cent and 6 per cent maximum. The hon. Member for Mufulira, Mr Golden Mwila, said that the 6 per cent interest is higher than the interest on the US$750 million Eurobond that was contracted in 2012. Let me remind him. He may be an accountant but, maybe, he has forgotten that the US$750 million Eurobond was contracted at 6.7 per cent interest, which is lower than the interest for the loan we want to get. The next debt was US$1 billion and was contracted at 8.5 per cent interest rate in 2013. The last one was US$1.3 billion and was contracted at slightly over 10 per cent interest rate. These are the figures that remain.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Eng. Milupi: I am an engineer, so I keep figures.
Laughter
Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, to ensure sustainability, the grace period for the loan we will get has been extended. The maturity period has also been extended to twenty-five years. What is the impact of this? The amounts to be repaid, when added to other loans contracted, will not be more than 14 per cent debt service to revenue ratio, which is defined as sustainable. Hon. Minister, well done.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Eng. Milupi: This is what we require from people whom we give responsibility, not what we had previously.
Madam Speaker, I have listened to all the debates here, even the debates against the Motion. Hon. Kafwaya, the Member of Parliament for Lunte, said that we should not borrow because we should get resources from the mines. What has this Government done about the mining sector? We have placed it in a position where more investments are coming into the sector. So, production is going to go up. Over time, we shall get a lot more revenue from there. The only alternative to what we are doing here was to come to this House and say ‘We are not able to borrow this amount so we should raise taxes.’ That would have been irresponsible of this Government because taxes are already high.
Madam Speaker, this is a non-controversial Motion. I thank your Committee for the wonderful work it has done, and I support the Motion.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I am truly grateful that you recalled the House to enable the presentation of the Motion on the Floor of the House, to request the House to approve the second amendment to the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan.
Madam Speaker, before I turn to the main topic, I want to congratulate our Government, through the President, for once again obtaining a stamp of approval from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) on the successful fourth review of our programme. That approval comes not just with further support of US$184 million but is also a mark of confidence that the economic affairs of the country are being well-managed. My hon. Colleague, I think that it was Hon. Kafwaya, said that the IMF has no confidence in us. I think that he is well behind in terms of knowing what is happening in the country.
Madam Speaker, the Motion on the Floor is a reflection of the fact that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has raised the bar very high, as far as debt acquisition is concerned. Everything about public debt now comes out in the open so that Parliament is aware and exercises its mandate in debt acquisition. These are the new good practices we are only seeing now in the country. We have never seen them before.
Madam Speaker, as you have noticed, the House already gave its approval for the Zambian Government to borrow from the African Development Bank (AfDB) for Budget support last year, in 2023. Today’s Motion is, therefore, not about raising new loans beyond what the House has already approved, nor is it about increasing the amounts on the loans already approved. The Motion is merely about requesting for approval to accept the AfDB loan that was originally assumed to be concessional. So, this loan was already approved; we are not asking for more money. It is merely about the changes in the terms. That is what we are asking to be approved. As many hon. Colleagues have said, this is, indeed, a very high mark of transparency that has never been seen in this country.
Madam Speaker, let me now address a few issues and concerns that hon. Colleagues put on the Table as they debated. One of the issues that were put on the Table is that the IMF or rather the AfDB has no confidence in the Zambian Government, which is why the window to get a concessional loan was closed. If the AfDB had no confidence in this Government, I can assure you that in the absence of resources in the concessional window, the bank would not have made any attempt to give us anything. If the bank has no confidence in us, why is it giving us a loan that is even less concessional? In fact, contrary to what people have said, the mere fact that the bank said that the window for a concessional loan has no resources, but provided an alternative loan for us is a very high mark of confidence in this Government.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, similarly, hon. Colleagues said that the IMF has no confidence in us, which is why it is lobbying other lending institutions to not give us money. Again, that is not correct. The fact is that, even after we have come out of the stressful debt situation, the IMF has said that despite the fact that the loan we have been offered is not a proper concessional loan, we should go ahead and get it. That is a mark of confidence because you cannot tempt someone who is not able to run his or her finances properly with expensive loans because you know that he or she is going to fail to pay back the loan. What we are seeing, therefore, are signs of confidence in the manner we are running affairs.
Madam Speaker, there was also another story that hon. Colleagues said, which is that we have given the mining sector concessions or tax holidays. I asked the question: Which mine has been given tax concessions? Give me a name. As far as I know, all the major formal mining companies are paying taxes. Taxes from the mining sector constitute the largest share of taxes in our country. The most important thing is that our hon. Colleagues were closing the mining sector at the same time that they were busy borrowing large sums of money. Can you imagine borrowing money from outside the country, which money you are going to pay back one day as foreign exchange, but busy closing the industry that is earning foreign exchange? How do you expect to come out of the debt situation? To the contrary, this Government has revived the mining companies that the people on the left closed. All those mines are now expanding production. For the first time in the history of our country, there are so many new investments coming into the mining sector. That target of 3 million tonnes of copper production is on the way. It is going to be a reality in this country.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: What does it mean? It means more and more foreign exchange will come into our country. This is why even the AfDB is willing to give us less concessional funding. It can see what we are doing. We have revived the mining sector that earns foreign currency. That is why the bank is able to say ‘Take the loan. We know you are going to pay back.’ It is because it can see mines opening up. This is the biggest mistake that our hon. Colleagues on the left made. It is surprising that they still want to talk about recreating conditions that led to the closure of the mines.
Madam Speaker, another point that was raised by hon. Colleagues is that in the first amendment to the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan, borrowing US$900 million was put on the Table. People have short memories. The US$450 million of this amount is meant to pay the suppliers of petroleum products that the previous Government did not pay. The people in the previous Government did not pay close to US$500 million. They left that debt to this Government. These are the very expensive debts that they left behind, sometimes with interest rate of 20 per cent in dollars. When we took action to pay what they left behind, some people said we are irresponsible. They have forgotten that they are the ones who are irresponsible because they did not pay the debts.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thought I should clarify some of the erroneous points that my hon. Colleagues made. What remains is for me to thank you, once again. I also thank the Committee for the excellent work done. With the money that will come, we will continue to invest more in our people.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: The social – what do they call it?
Hon. Government Members: The Sustainable Agriculture Financing Facility (SAFF).
Dr Musokotwane: We will now be able to put money in the Sustainable Agriculture Financing Facility (SAFF).
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: We will have money for health infrastructure, roads, and other programmes. The job of this Government is to save money and put it where it matters for the people of Zambia, not party after party.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Laughter
Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to wind up the debate.
Madam Speaker, you can see that this is an interesting topic, going by the number of hon. Members who indicated to debate. I think that everything has been said. I express my sincere gratitude to the hon. Members for the overwhelming support they have shown for …
Mr B. Mpundu: Question!
Mr Chaatila: … this Motion on the Table.
Madam Speaker, I can hear Hon. B. Mpundu say ‘question,’ but I know he is doing that on a lighter note. Deep down his heart, he supports the Motion. Let me also thank the members of the Committee for the support they gave me during the deliberations on the matter. I am grateful, once again, and I now ask the hon. Members to adopt this report.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Question put and agreed to.
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ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE
The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adjourn sine die.
Question put and agreed to.
______
The House adjourned accordingly at 1648 hours on Tuesday, 17th December, 2024, sine die.
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