Friday, 22^nd November, 2024

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

PRESENCE OF PUPILS AND TEACHERS IN THE PUBLIC GALLERY FROM AHMADYYA SECONDARY SCHOOL

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from Ahmadyya Secondary School, Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

 

I thank you.

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BUSINESS STATEMENT 

The Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the House Business Committee met on Thursday, 21^st November, 2024, to determine and schedule the Business of the House for the period 26^th November to 6^th December, 2024.

Madam Speaker, the House Business Committee resolved to lay before the House the following business for consideration during the stated period:

Announcements

Hon. Madam Speaker may make announcements, if there will be any.

Rulings

Hon. Madam Speaker may render rulings, if there will be any.

Ministerial Statements

Hon. Ministers will render Ministerial Statements on topical issues, if there will be any.

Private Members Motions

The following Private Members Motion is scheduled to be considered during this period:

Mr S. Chanda, MP, will move a Motion entitled: “Enhance Regulation of Online Gambling” on 27^th November, 2024.                                         

Bills

The Bills listed hereunder will be considered:

1. The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill No. 22 of 2024. This will be at the Committee stage and the date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024;
2. The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill No. 23 of 2024. This will be at the Committee stage and the date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
3. The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill No. 24 of 2024. This will be at the Committee stage and the date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024;
4. The Mobile Money Transaction Levy Bill No. 25 of 2024. This will be the Committee stage and the date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024;
5. The Zambia Revenue Authority (Amendment) Bill No. 26 of 2024. This will be at the Committee stage and the date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
6. The Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill No. 27 of 2024. This will be at the Committee stage and the date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024;
7. The Insurance Premium Levy (Amendment) Bill No. 28 of 2024. This will be at the Committee stage and the date of consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
8. The Judiciary Administration (Amendment) Bill No. 16 of 2024. This will be at the Second Reading stage and the date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
9. The Penal Code (Amendment) Bill No. 17 of 2024. This will be at the Second Reading stage and the date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;

(x)   The Green Economy and Climate Change Bill No. 18 of 2024. This will be at the Second Reading stage and the date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;

(xi)  The Zambia Institute of Quantity Surveyors Bill No. 19 of 2024. This will be at the Second Reading stage and the date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;

(xii)  The Plant Health Bill No. 20 of 2024. This will be at the Second Reading stage and the date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024; and

(xiii) The Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (Amendment) Bill No. 21 of 2024. This will be at Second Reading stage and the date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024.                           

Reports on International Conferences

Reports on international conferences will be considered, if there will be any.

Reports on Treaties and International Agreements

Reports on treaties and international agreements will be considered, if there will be any.

Committee of Supply

The consideration of individual Heads of Expenditure in the Committee of Supply, which commenced on Thursday, 21^st November, 2024, will be concluded on Thursday, 28^th November, 2024. Thereafter, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will present the Appropriation Bill.

Questions on Standby

The Questions on Standby contained in the Notice of Questions that was earlier circulated, may be placed on the Order Paper on any day. 

Heads of Expenditure

The following Heads of Expenditure will be considered:

1. Head 35 – Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
2. Head 76 – Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
3. Head 17 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
4. Head 21 – Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
5. Head 37 – Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
6. Head 51 – Ministry of Transport and Logistics. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
7. Head 54 – Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
8. Head 52 – Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
9. Head 62 – Ministry of Energy. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024; 
10. Head 80 – Ministry of Education. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024; 
11. Head 66 – Ministry of Technology and Science. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
12. Head 85 – Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources. The date for consideration is 26^th November, 2024;
13. Head 53 – Ministry of Green Economy and Environment. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
14. Head 89 – Ministry of Agriculture. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
15. Head 86 – Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
16. Head 77 – Ministry of Defence. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
17. Head 78 – Zambia Security Intelligence Services – Office of the President. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
18. Head 87 – Anti-Corruption Commission. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
19. Head 68 – Ministry of Tourism. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
20. Head 45 – Ministry of Community Development Social Services. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
21. Head 46 – Ministry of Health. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
22. Head 88 – Office of the President – Muchinga Province. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
23. Head 90 – Office of the President – Lusaka Province. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
24. Head 91 – Office of the President – Copperbelt Province. The date for consideration is 27^th November, 2024;
25. Head 92 – Office of the President – Central Province. The date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024;
26. Head 93 – Office of the President – Northern Province. The date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024;
27. Head 94 – Office of the President – Western Province. The date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024;
28. Head 95 – Office of the President – Eastern Province. The date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024;
29. Head 96 – Office of the President – Luapula Province. The date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024;
30. Head 97 – Office of the President – North-Western Province. The date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024;
31. Head 98 – Office of the President – Southern Province. The date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024; and
32. Head 99 – Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure. The date for consideration is 28^th November, 2024.

Suspension of Standing Orders

The Leader of Government Business in the House is on Thursday, 5^th December, 2024, expected to move a Motion to suspend relevant Standing Orders to enable the House complete all the business on the Order Paper for Friday, 6^th December, 2024, and, thereafter, adjourn sine die.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the House Business Committee, and in accordance with Standing Order No. 44 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, I have the pleasure to present the business for the next two weeks to this august House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, do you not want to go on vacation? The people want to see you in the constituencies.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: We, who are farmers, can donate some animals for Christmas.

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BILLS

SECOND READING

THE MOBILE MONEY TRANSACTION LEVY BILL, 2024

The Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, the Bill before this House is principally seeking to amend the Mobile Money Transaction Levy Act so as to:

1. provide for the administration of the Act;
2. provide for maintenance of records of mobile money operations;
3. provide for inspection of mobile money transactions;
4. repeal and replace the Mobile Money Transaction Levy Act, 2023; and
5. provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is straightforward, and I commend it to this House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mulaliki (Senanga Central): Madam Speaker, your Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters was tasked to scrutinise the Mobile Money Transaction Levy Bill No. 25 of 2024, pursuant to its mandate as set out in Standing Order No. 207(j) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024.

Madam Speaker, the Mobile Money Transaction Levy Bill No. 25 of 2024 seeks to repeal and replace the Mobile Money Transaction Levy Act No.16 of 2023, so as to transfer the administration of the Act from the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) to the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). The Bill also seeks to provide for the maintenance of records of mobile money operations and for inspection of mobile money operations, among other things.

Madam Speaker, let me state from the outset that all stakeholders who appeared before your Committee were in support of the Bill. However, they raised a few concerns on which your Committee made the following observations and recommendations.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that the definition of electronic money under Clause 2 of the Bill is restricted to mobile money, when commercial banks have electronic-money (e-money) products as well. In view of this, your Committee recommends that the definition of e-money be harmonised with the one provided in the National Payment Systems Directives on Electronic Money Issuance, 2023 for consistency purposes.

Madam Speaker, with regard to inspections of mobile money transactions, your Committee observed that Clause 8 permits the ZRA to undertake inspections of mobile money transactions. However, the Bill does not prescribe the intervals for inspections. The view of your Committee is that this can leave room for some providers to take advantage of the gaps and avoid adhering to the requirement to remit the levy. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that a provision be made for a set schedule or minimum interval of inspections to ensure that inspections are conducted as required without fail.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, on behalf of your Committee members, I wish to express our deepest gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations. Your Committee is further indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary briefs.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, allow me to congratulate the Tonse Alliance for successfully filling a candidate for the Kawambwa by-election. This is how it should be. Our friends in the Government should not be blocking candidates in order to have only their candidates in elections. After all, this is what democracy is all about.

Madam Speaker, I have looked at the Mobile Money Transaction Levy Bill No. 25 of 2024. One of the objectives of the Bill is to repeal and replace the Mobile Money Transaction Levy Bill No. 16 of 2023. My opinion, which is well considered, is that this Bill is targeted at levying mobile money transactions. As we all know, it is mostly the people who are underprivileged who use this facility. A lot of money is given to people in rural areas, like Feira Constituency, through the Social Cash Transfer programme, the Cash for Work programme, and other programmes. In this case, the Government will be getting back the same money it is giving to its people. Instead of talking about repealing and replacing the Act with another one that will do the same thing, we should actually be talking about abolishing the Act. I think that we are doing a disservice to poor people by enacting such a Bill.

Madam Speaker, another objective of the Bill is to transfer the administration of the Act from the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) to the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). It is the same thing. It is my considered view that, instead of talking about taxing poor people through mobile money transactions, we should be talking about taxing the people who are earning a lot of money from our natural resources, in particular, mines and other organisations. We are talking about increasing domestic revenue. Domestic revenue is not about taxing Zambians. Let us talk about the multinational corporations that are operating in Zambia and let us tax them. I think that we have wasted a lot of time talking about ourselves and small income from the people we should be protecting. Yesterday, we were debating the International Resource Holdings (IRH), a company that we do not know, which has tax holidays. This country is well-endowed with minerals. I will not even belabour the minerals that this country has. We also have timber, oil, uranium and many other resources. I want to address the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Why is he not bringing a Bill on how we are going to collect taxes from multinational corporations? I will not accept the opinion that we need to attract investment. It does not happen. Okay, let us try it. There is an assumption that companies are about to leave the country because of taxation. That is not true. First Quantum Minerals (FQM) has made billions in profits, but we are talking about taxing a poor mother in Feira Constituency, Rufunsa Constituency, Ndola Central or Choma Central Constituency. I want to emphasise that by taxing poor people, we are actually subjecting them to economic exploitation and, eventually, political oppression because when people do not control the economy, they cannot participate properly in the political arena. So, we should talk about abolishing the Mobile Money Transactions Act No. 16 of 2023 and tax the mining conglomerates that make billions. Some investors came here with nothing. They promise a lot, but after we give them licences, they start borrowing using our resources. That is my view.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise this point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 71. 

Madam Speaker, as you know, I rarely rise on points of order. I only rise when the situation is so compelling that I have no other option to pursue but to raise a point of order of this nature.

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Member of Parliament was on the Floor, he made startling and hair-raising claims, which he has not substantiated on the Floor of the House. He has told the House that the Government has given tax holidays to big mining conglomerates, such as the International Resource Holdings (IRH), and that those conglomerates are not paying taxes. However, the record is straight that in 2024, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) contributed 71 per cent of revenue to the Treasury or the National Budget, and out of that amount, 40 per cent is from the mining sector, which he said is not paying taxes.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to give such misleading information to the nation, that the mines are not paying taxes, when they are responsible for funding 40 per cent of our National Budget through tax remittance?

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Minister of Information and Media for that point of order. I believe that when the hon. Member of Parliament for Feira rose, he said ‘in my opinion.’ So, he gave an opinion. However, to the extent that he said that the mines are not paying taxes without providing evidence, he was out of order. Whatever an hon. Member states on the Floor of the House should be factual and verifiable, but he did not provide verifiable information.

Let us make progress.

Hon. Members, when you are debating, please, stick to the report. The report contains the information that is supposed to be discussed. If you have read the report, you will have enough information or data to guide your debates.

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate a few issues in the report on the Mobile Money Transaction Levy Bill No. 25 of 2024. As you have guided, we need to stick to the report. It is obvious that the previous debater was completely out of this topical issue. As you said, it was his opinion.

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, there is a big difference between the role of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and the role of the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). The previous debater indicated that the roles are the same. The role of the BoZ is creating and implementing the monetary policy while the role of the ZRA is collecting taxes on behalf Zambians. 

Madam Speaker, the Mobile Money Transaction Levy Bill was enacted in 2023. Currently, it is under the BoZ. I think that is the key issue. We have realised that the role of the BoZ is not to collect taxes, that is why we want to cure the problem by taking the Bill to the ZRA, which is the right institution that collects taxes. I think that is very important for the hon. Member of Parliament for Feira and other hon. Members to know. There is a big difference between the mandate of the BoZ and the ZRA.

Madam Speaker, I will also discuss Clause 8 of the Bill on inspection of mobile money operations. Allow me to read it. It reads:

“Clause 8:       Inspection of Mobile Money Operations

This Clause provided for the powers of the CommissionerGeneral, for purposes of enforcing the Act, to enter any premises and inspect any records, verify returns and require the mobile service provider to produce any other information necessary for the administration of the Act.”

Madam Speaker, under your Committee’s recommendations and observations, the report says:

 “(iv)   Inspection of Mobile Money Transactions

The Committee observes that although clause 8 provides for permission for the Zambia Revenue Authority to undertake inspections of mobile money transactions, the Bill does not prescribe the intervals for inspections.”

Madam Speaker, the Committee contends that this clause can leave room for some providers to take advantage of the gaps. My opinion is that this clause, as it is, is sitting well because the ZRA is mandated to inspect any institution at any given time. The issue raised by the Committee is cured under Clause 5 of the same Bill, which allows the ZRA to ensure that mobile money operators remit the revenue they have collected within ten days after the end of the month. I say so because it is critical for the ZRA to undertake inspections at any given time. Imagine arming the enemy by giving intervals. For example, if you say that every 15^th day of the month, the ZRA will conduct inspections, what are you doing? You are arming the enemy. So, my contention is that this clause must remain the way it is so that the ZRA can have the mandate to undertake inspections as and when it sees fit or when it suspects something wrong.

Madam Speaker, the last clause I would like to talk about is Clause 10. Allow me to read from the report:

“Clause 10:     Administration of Act

This clause provided for the Minister to make Regulations by Statutory Order for the better carrying out of the provisions of the Act.”

Madam Speaker, I need to emphasise that when we leave it open and indicate that ‘the Minister’ will make regulations, the question is: Which ‘Minister’ are we talking about? I think that the Bill must specify in no uncertain terms that the ‘Minister’ referred to here is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, whose mandate is to deal with money Bills. If we leave the Bill as it is, we might find the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts undertaking some of these functions.

Madam Speaker, I think that these are the key responsibilities. I agree that this Bill must be under the ZRA so that the implementers are well-known, and it will align with the mandate of the ZRA as opposed to the Bill being under the BoZ.

Madam Speaker, I thought that I should raise those few issues. As you can see, I have restricted myself to the Bill. This is how the debate must be.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to make a few comments on the proposed Mobile Money Transaction Levy Bill.

Madam Speaker, first of all, I want to put it on record that when this Bill came to the House last year, I was reluctant to support it for obvious reasons. As I stand here, I want to remind my hon. Colleagues on your right that they might not like us, but when we make submissions, they should listen to what we say. Even last time, I said that the Bill was placed under the wrong institution, that is, the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). I said that the responsibility of collecting levies and taxes is with the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). I stated so, but the people on the right stood their ground. Here we are today. One year down the line, the Government has come back to the House with the Bill. So, let us learn to give each other mutual respect because at the end of the day, what we do here is in the interest of the nation.

Madam Speaker, among other things, the objectives of this Bill are to provide maintenance of records for mobile money operations. Like my hon. Colleague the Member of Parliament for Feira said, mining companies are opening in various areas. So, we must concentrate our efforts into ensuring that the ZRA collects revenue properly from the new mining companies coming on board.

Madam Speaker, who are the players in mobile money transfers? Mobile money platforms are providing services to the unbanked population. Most of us here are from rural constituencies. We take advantage of these platforms to send money to our relatives to buy fertiliser and to do all sorts of things.  The unemployment levels in this country can be seen from how many young men and women are in the mobile money transfer business. Just look at how they run towards customers with phones to try and make a little commission. These are young people with no fixed shops to operate from. Some of them had their mobile booths demolished not long ago, so now they are mobile. So, what records can we expect from those young women and men when they send K500, K200 or K20? That is how complex this proposal we are making is. Moreover, the unemployed youths are the major players in the mobile money business. They leave their homes to go and stand in the rains to make even just a K500 at the end of the day. So, as we make proposals, we, the people’s representatives, must be mindful of these issues and speak to the reality obtaining on the ground. How tenable is it that actual records will be maintained? The Bill also provides for the inspection of the mobile money transaction records. How much capacity will the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) have to do this? Will the staff run around in all cities like Ndola, and then go to my village, Shiwang’andu, to find the young men and women running mobile money businesses to see how much they have transacted in a month? Hon. Colleagues, we are the people’s representatives. It does not matter whether you are from the Government or the Opposition; we have to face reality as it is. Yes, it is important to broaden the revenue and tax base, but why are we doing it at a critical time like this, when we are dealing with a high employment rate?

Madam Speaker, our young men and women wake up every day to try and survive. Just take a drive even just nearby here and see how the young people running mobile money businesses will follow you to make a K200 transaction. Now, we are asking them to have books so that when they send a K200, they should write ‘K200 sent from A to B.’ How tenable is that? So, as we make laws here, one of our objectives as legislators should be to make laws that can be implemented without challenges, laws that are acceptable to the people. I would have loved your Committee, which considered this Bill, to have asked just a few of our mobile money business owners what it is like going through every day in this business. My hon. Colleague spoke about the Social Cash Transfer, which is now a challenge in most of the areas where connectivity is a problem. Have we looked at all these factors?

Madam Speaker, yes, I agree that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning that we must generate revenue from the local basket, but we must also prioritise what matters most. Otherwise, we will lose relevance collectively as hon. Members of Parliament, the representatives of the people. When there are challenges in the nation, we must appreciate the challenges by thinking of how we will cushion our youths from certain issues. What role did the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts play in this matter? Most of the people in the mobile money transfer business are youths.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: You can question, but you know the reality.

Madam Speaker, I just thought that I should make these issues known. Even as the hon Minister is proposing this Bill, he must apply his mind to the realities obtaining on the ground.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank your Committee for the observations it has made. The Committee’s concerns regarding the harmonisation of the definition of electronic-money (e-money) with the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) National Payment Systems Directives on Electronic Money Issuance, 2023 are duly noted, and we will prioritise consistency in the implementation of the Act.

Madam Speaker, regarding the recommendation to clarify whether the ten-day remittance period for mobile money operators refers to working days or calendar days, the Interpretation and General Provisions Act Chapter 2 of the Laws of Zambia governs the computation of time in all written laws, including the one under discussion.

Madam Speaker, one of the notable recommendations your Committee has made is for the Bill to clarify on the application of the wallet to bank transactions. I wish to mention that in order to ensure transparency and the smooth implementation of the Bill, the ministry and the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) will consider all the concerns and recommendations and further prioritise stakeholder engagement by working closely with taxpayers.

Madam Speaker, let me now address myself to some of the comments made. It was stated that we need to tax the mining sector more because it is unfair to tax mobile money transactions. As the Government Spokesperson said, the mining industry is being taxed. He is also right that it is the biggest contributor of taxes to the country by far. There is no other sector that contributes like the mining sector. Now, I also want to bring this perspective to you: the total Budget that we are considering this year is K217,105,378,661, translating into just about US$8 billion. So, the total Budget, in dollar terms, is US$8 billion. The export revenues for the mining sector are roughly also US$8 billion. If the people on the left are saying that the whole Budget of US$8 billion must be financed by collecting everything that the mining industry sells, which is worth US$8 billion, we will have to tell the industry not to pay workers and suppliers. Then, there will be no profit for the industry. That is what these people are suggesting. It is no wonder the mining industry collapsed during their time. It was because of lack of thinking through the proposals that they made.

Madam Speaker, it has been said so many times on this Floor that the tax base needs to spread out because those in the formal sector on pay roll are the ones bearing the brunt. So many times, people on this Floor have debated that we should incorporate the informal sector in the tax net so that it can also contribute to the tax base of the country, and I agree. The Mobile Money Transaction Levy Bill we are considering is one way of capturing people like welders and builders, who collect even more money than ourselves in formal employment, but they do not pay taxes. Even then, if you look at the taxes we are considering here, you will see that the amounts are so small. A person will pay maybe 10n, 20n or 40n, not K10 on a transaction. Honestly, even the water that we are drinking, which the people they are talking about also buy, is taxed. There are much bigger taxes on beer. So, honestly, if you collect 10n or 20n but rely on big transaction numbers to get something, what is wrong with that?   I think these taxes are appropriate. They are not for squandering or spending on partying, as we used to see in the past. This money will be used to send all our children to school free of charge. This is the money that will use to send our children and mothers to hospitals free of charge. This is the money that we will put back in your constituencies as the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). So, what is wrong with that?

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 71, which requires that the information we table in this august House be factual and verifiable. In trying to buttress his argument, the hon. Minister has cited one informal sector. He said that welders or metal fabricators, those who make things from steel, do not pay tax. The hon. Minister is aware that for a welder to weld, he or she must procure steel. Value Added Tax is paid when steel is procured. Welders also pay for electricity in order to use their welding rods.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, what is the point of order? We need to move on.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to insinuate that metal fabricators in the informal sector do not contribute tax?

I seek your serious ruling because this is an institution for the people.

Madam Speaker: I think that what the hon. Minister referred to was an example in relation to the income generated from the main business that welders do. When they buy products from a shop, they pay another form of tax, which is the Value Added Tax (VAT). However, do they pay tax on the revenue that they generate as income? I also think that as we debate these issues, we should have numbers or statistics. If we had done a study on the informal sector and how much money people in the sector collect, that would inform our debate, rather than just making assertions that people in the informal sector   do not make enough revenue. Next time, it is better we have numbers or statistics to support whatever assertions we are making.

So, let us make progress.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday 28^th November, 2024.

THE PROPERTY TRANSFER TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2024

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, the Bill before this House is principally seeking to amend the Property Transfer Tax Act so as to:

1. revise the definition of intellectual property;
2. allow a money-lender and building society to use the actual price received in determining the realised value for the disposal of foreclosed property; and
3. provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is straightforward, and I commend it to the House.

Mr Malaliki: Madam Speaker, the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters was tasked to scrutinise the Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill No. 27 of 2024, pursuant to its mandate as set out in Standing Order No. 207(j) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024.

Madam Speaker, the Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill No. 27 of 2024 seeks to revise the definition of intellectual property and allow a money-lender and a building society to use the actual price received in determining the realised value for the disposal of foreclosed property, among other things.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to know that the stakeholders who appeared before the Committee were in support of the Bill. However, they raised a few concerns on which your Committee made the following observations and recommendations.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that the Bill does not provide for guarantors of bonds, which consist of insurance companies and banks. The Committee is of the view that if guarantors are not expressly provided for in the Bill, the provision will be prone to abuse. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that a clause be included in the Bill to provide for guarantors of bonds.

Madam Speaker, regarding the value of a foreclosed property and its actual price, your Committee observed that the Act does not expressly state what will happen to the difference. Your Committee contends that the ambiguity has the potential to create acrimony among the aggrieved parties. It, therefore, recommends that a provision be made in the Bill on the handling of the difference in value to avoid the ambiguities.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, let me take this opportunity to express the Committee’s gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to the Committee throughout its deliberations. Gratitude also goes to the stakeholders who appeared before the Committee for their co-operation in providing the necessary briefs.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters and hon. Members for supporting the Bill. I also wish to take note of the observations made by the Committee as well as the issues raised by hon. Members. May I now respond to some of them.

Madam Speaker, your Committee has recommended that provisions be made to protect financial institutions that might face loses if a property is sold for less than the loan amount. I wish to inform the august House that this Bill is intended to allow a money-lender and a building society to use the actual price received in determining the realised value for the disposal of the foreclosed property. This measure will protect financial institutions that dispose of foreclosed property at a price below the market value by allowing them to pay Property Transfer Tax on the actual price, not the open market price, which may be actually higher.

Madam Speaker, your Committee has also raised concerns that the Bill does not provide for guarantors of bonds, which are insurance companies and banks. I appreciate the concerns raised. However, this measure is intended to provide relief to financial institutions that provide funding or other means of financing that is secured by lands and buildings. Your Committee has observed that the Bill does not expressly state what will happen to the difference between the values of the foreclosed property and the actual price. Your Committee has contended that this ambiguity has the potential to create acrimony among aggrieved parties. I wish to inform the House that the Property Transfer Tax Act that this Bill is proposing to amend particularly provides for the taxation of the Property Transfer Tax. Therefore, this Act only looks at what the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) will use as a tax base in determining the Property Transfer Tax and not necessarily how the property is disposed of.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 28^th November, 2024.

THE INSURANCE PREMIUM LEVY (Amendment) BILL, 2024

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the Bill before this House is principally seeking to amend the Insurance Premium Levy Act, 2015, so as to strengthen compliance by providing for the use of an electronic invoicing system.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is straightforward, and I commend it to the House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Can we follow the proceedings? There is a lot of talking. Please, lower your consultations.

Mr Mulaliki: Madam Speaker, your Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters was tasked to scrutinise the Insurance Premium Levy (Amendment) Bill No. 28 of 2024, pursuant to its mandate as set out in Standing Order No. 207(j) of the National Assembly of ZambiaStanding Orders, 2024.

Madam Speaker, the Insurance Premium Levy (Amendment) Bill No. 28 of 2024 seeks to amend the Insurance Premium Levy Act No. 21 of 2015, so as to strengthen compliance by providing for the use of an electronic invoicing system.

Madam Speaker, let me hasten to mention that the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee supported the Bill. I am aware that hon. Members have read the report. However, I will comment on a few salient issues observed by your Committee during its deliberations with the stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, it is anticipated that once the electronic invoicing system is fully implemented, it will broaden the tax base. However, your Committee is of the view that in order to derive full benefits from the electronic invoicing system, there is a need to capacitate the players in the industry. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that measures be put in place to ensure that an insurer and an insurer’s agent or a broker receives more technical support to facilitate the seamless implementation of the system across the business they provide services to.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the premium levy accounting by intermediaries, your Committee observed that the Bill does not take into account or prescribe how an insurer shall account for the premium levy on business that is underwritten through intermediaries. Your Committee, therefore, strongly recommends that this be provided for in the Bill.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I wish to express our gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly on behalf of your Committee for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations. Your Committee is further indebted to all witnesses who appeared before it.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters and the hon. Members for the support. I also wish to take note of the observations they have made. Let me respond to some of them.

Madam Speaker, one of the key pillars of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) Strategic Plan is to provide better taxpayer services through customer focus and collaboration. We recognise that the bedrock of tax compliance is satisfied and knowledgeable taxpayers. Therefore, the ZRA will ensure to provide technical support to insurance companies, agents and brokers for the smooth implementation of the electronic invoicing system. I encourage taxpayers to engage the ZRA.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 26^th November, 2024.

______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 10 – (Zambia Police Service Commission – K26,546,388)

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K26,546,388 be approved in respect of Head 10 – Zambia Police Service Commission, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police Service – K3,072,913,832)

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K3,072,913,832 be approved in respect of Head 11 – Zambia Police Service, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 12 – (Office of the Public Protector – K41,561,562)

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K41,561,562 be approved in respect of Head 12 – Office of the Public Protector, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: By prior arrangement, and due to other Government commitments, I seek your indulgence that we jump to Head 25.

VOTE 25 – (Local Government Service Commission – K24,480,560)

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K24,480,560 be approved in respect of Head 25 – Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development – Local Government Service Commission, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K679,957,748)

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K679,957,748 be approved in respect of Head 14 – Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security – K551,001,603)

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K551,001,603 be approved in respect of Head 15 – Ministry of Home Affairs, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – K229,286,420)

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K229,286,420 be approved in respect of Head 16 – Drug Enforcement Commission, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18 – (Judiciary – K927,055,054)

The Minister of Justice (MsKasune): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K927,055,054 be approved in respect of Head 18 – Judiciary, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members called for a division.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are less than the required number. Resume your seats.

Hon. PF Members: How many should we be?

The Deputy Chairperson: You are supposed to be thirteen. How many are you? You are less than thirteen. Please, resume your seats.

Hon. PF Members resumed their seats.

Vote 18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 23 – (Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security – National Immigration Services –     K394,651,958)

Mr Mwiimbu, SC:Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K394,651,958 be approved in respect of Head 23 – Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security – National Immigration Services, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the request by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to have Head 23 be approved, but I would like to know what he has done with regard to the recommendations of the Committee that was tasked with scrutinising the budget. The Committee raised some issues, and I will cite some of them. If you go to page 38 of the report of the Expanded Planning and Budgeting Committee, you will find that the Committee observed that there are inadequate resources to meet rising demands of immigration management, particularly in areas like border security, technology upgrades and human resource. This has resulted in failure to meet emerging immigration trends and achieve the set goals of the department. The Committee recommended that the ministry prioritises the ongoing review of the principal Act, which is the Immigration and Deportation Act. I would like to know what measures the hon. Minister is going to take to address the issues that were raised by the Expanded Planning and Budgeting Committee.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue that the Committee raised was that, the operations of the department have continued to be hampered despite the seemingly meaningful increments in resource allocation. The Committee cited challenges such as human resource, transport, office space and officers housing. Further, the department still lacks holding facilities and a training school. Indeed, these programmes have been on the table for a long time. I would like to know what the hon. Minister is doing about them. I know that the few housing units we constructed during our time in the Government are not enough to cater for our officers. As you know, officers are supposed to be kept in designated locations so that their call to duty is not hampered. I would like to know what the hon. Minister has done to ensure that officers are properly accommodated in designated locations. I also want to know what is being done on the issue of operations because if this institution is not well capacitated, we risk foreigners infiltrating us, which is not desirable.

 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to hear the response from the hon. Minister. I know that we have a challenge. There is silence from hon. Members of Parliament because people are trying to acquaint themselves with the new guidelines –

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me guide, hon. Member. The purpose of this exercise is to look at the figures.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, exactly. Speak to the figures which are not –

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me guide you, hon. Member. May you resume your seat.

Mr Kampyongo resumed his seat.

The Deputy Chairperson: The general policy debates ended a few days ago. You also had an opportunity during the Committee sittings to speak. So, at this stage, just look at the figures. Look at the figures as opposed to debating, which you have started doing. In fact, this is supposed to be a clarification, not a debate. If you need clarification, the hon. Minister will be able to clarify. Do not debate. So, you may go ahead to seek clarification, not to debate.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I am well-guided. In view of the fact that the hon. Minister has presented only K394,651,958, how is he going to address the challenges highlighted in the report of your Committee? I was not veering off. I was seeking clarification in view of the figure that he has presented and the challenges that have been highlighted in the report of your Committee.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the issues that have been raised by my hon. Colleague, but as you have guided, we are now looking at the Votes under the budget of the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security – National Immigration Services. If he pinpoints a particular figure under a particular vote, I will be able to respond. Other than that, he is opening a debate …

The Deputy Chairperson: Very right.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: ... over this matter because I will start debating.

Ms Mulenga: Hm ba Jack! Ah!

The Deputy Chairperson: You are very correct, hon. Minister.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to take the Floor. I think that we need to be on the same footing. The debate we finished was on the policy statement moved by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. When the hon. Ministers move the Heads, they start by –

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, let me guide you.

May you resume your seat, sir.

Mr Kampyongo: Ah, ah!

The Deputy Chairperson: May you resume your seat, sir.

Mr Kampyongo resumed his seat.

The Deputy Chairperson: You had an opportunity. Remember that we operate not only through plenaries but committees. Committees sat and witnesses were invited. An Expanded Planning and Budgeting Committee sat and recommendations were made. At that point, you should have had an opportunity to interrogate the Budget and raise questions, and answers would have been availed. At this point, just interrogate the figures. That is what we are supposed to do.

Vote 23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 VOTE 28 – (Emoluments Commission – K29,341,531)

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K29,341,531 be approved in respect of Head 28 – Emoluments Commission, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

VOTE 30 – (Zambia Correctional Service – K1,254,257,541)

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K1,254,257,541 be approved in respect of Head 30 – Zambia Correctional Service, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Allen Banda (Chimwemwe): Mr Chairperson, may I take the hon. Minister to page 314 of the Yellow Book. I will be looking at him as he is searching for the page. Are you on page 314, hon Minister?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC indicated assent.

Mr Allen Banda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 314, Table 1: Budget Allocation by Economic Classification, 22 – Goods and Services – K424,370,738. This year, this activity was allocated K559,434,862, but the amount for next year has been reduced to K424, 370,738. We know that the number of inmates is big, and the correctional facility needs to feed the inmates well. Why has the amount for next year been reduced?

Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Table 1: Budget Allocation by Economic Classification, 31 – Assets – K189,320,552. This year, the activity was allocated K79,536,157.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Allen Banda: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was looking at page 314, Table 1, in the Yellow Book.

The Deputy Chairperson: Refer to theHead.

Mr Allen Banda: It is Head 30.

The Deputy Chairperson: Head Total?

Mr Allen Banda: The Head Total is K1,254,257,541.

Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 314, Table 1: Budget Allocation by Economic Classification, 22 – Goods and Services – K424,370,738. If you go to page 314 of the Yellow Book, you will find what I am talking about.

Mr Syakalima: You can lend us your cell phone.

Laughter

Mr Allen Banda: Oh, yes. It is on page 314.

Laughter

Mr Allen Banda: Hon. Minister, have you found it? Or should I just ask my question because it is based on figures?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Yes.

Mr Allen Banda: In 2024, the activity was allocated K559,434,862 but it has been reduced toK424,370,738 for 2025. Have we seen a reduction in the number of prisoners under the correctional service? Prisoners need to be fed and clothed well. So, does the reduced amount allocated mean that there are fewer prisoners, or are you just punishing them?

Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Table 1: Budget Allocation by Economic Classification, 31 – Assets – K189,320,552. This amount is very small because we know that prisons need rehabilitation and more space.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Mr Chairperson, these funds have been allocated for the purchase of goods and services for the rehabilitation service programmes. The funds are meant to procure industrial equipment, inmates' education and skills training materials, and correctional farm expansion and management. The decreased amount of K484,779,686 was a result of scaling up some activities.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 31 – (Ministry of Justice ˗ K1,274,491,590)

Ms Kasune: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K1,274,491,590 be approved in respect of Head 31 – Ministry of Justice, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 33 – (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry – K1,773,778,271)

 

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Chipoka Mulenga): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K1,773,778,271 be approved in respect of Head 33 – Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry,in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 34 – (Human Rights Commission – K52,038,587)

 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K52,038,587 be approved in respect of Head 34 – Human Rights Commission, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 36 – (Zambia Correctional Service Commission – K16,101,163)

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K16,101,163 be approved in respect of Head 36 – Zambia Correctional Service Commission, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 39 – (Smart Zambia Institute – K452,116,796)

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that K452,116,796 be approved in respect of Head 39 – Smart Zambia Institute, in line with the programmes as outlined in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

__________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1124 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 26^thNovember, 2024.

_____________