DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 2nd December, 2011

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR SPEAKER

PUNCTUALITY

Mr Speaker: I have two announcements to make. The first relates to punctuality by all hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Members, Parliament has rules, procedures and practices which must be observed and adhered to strictly at all times by all hon. Members when attending to Business in the House or its Committees.

In this regard, Standing Order 19 stipulates the time of commencement of sitting of the House which is ordinarily 1430 hours on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays and 0900 hours on Fridays. The Members’ Handbook of 2006 provides that hon. Members be present in the House a few minutes before the scheduled time of commencement or resumption of business. The need for punctuality also applies to meetings of Committees of the House within or outside the precincts of Parliament.

In view of the foregoing, I wish to caution all hon. Members as follows:

(i) it is unbefitting of the dignity of the House and an affront to the Chair for hon. Members to expect the Presiding Officer to wait for them at the start of business or, usually, after tea breaks;

(ii) it is unacceptable for hon. Members to come late to the House after tea break or any other break thereby causing lack of quorum in the House;

(iii) above all, it is the duty of all hon. Members to ensure that a quorum is always formed at the start of business and after tea breaks. Hon. Members must be in their seats when entry of the Chair is announced in the House. Therefore, hon. Members are reminded to strictly observe punctuality when reporting to the House at the start of Business and after the tea breaks;  and

(iv) lastly, but not least, I wish to appeal to all hon. Members to take this timely caution very seriously. The people you represent expect effective representation from you and punctuality and diligence in this regard is, obviously, a hallmark of effective representation.

Finally, I wish to implore all party whips to ensure that their respective hon. Members observe punctuality as outlined above.

I thank you.

SESSIONAL COMMITTEES

In accordance with Standing Order No. 133(3), the following changes have been made to the composition of the following Committees:

Standing Orders Committee

Mrs E. Kabanshi, MP, has been replaced by Mrs S. T. Masebo, MP.

Committee on Delegated Legislation

Mr M. Sichone, MP, has been replaced by Mr A. Sichula, MP.

Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply

Mr B. Hamusonde, MP, has been replaced by Mr O. C. Mulomba, MP.

Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs

Mrs E. Kabanshi, MP, has been replaced by Brig. General B. Kapaya, MP.

Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs

Mrs E. Kabanshi, MP, has been replaced by Mrs S. T. Masebo, MP.

I thank you.

__________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I rise to give an idea of the Business the House will consider next week.

Mr Speaker, on Tuesday, 6th December, 2011, the Business of the House will begin with questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2012 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

Head 12 – Commission for Investigations in the Office of the President;

Head13 – Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs;

Head 14 – Minister of Mines and Natural Resources;

Head 17 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs; and

Head18 – The Judiciary.

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 7th December, 2011, the Business of the House will begin with questions, if they will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider a Private Member’s Motion entitled Funded Integrated Urban Development Approach: That in view of the increased social economic activities that may come to bear in a particular locality, this House urges the Government to pursue funded integrated urban development approach to ensure that the existing public infrastructure and amenities are not unnecessarily put under strain. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on 2012 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Votes:

Head 20 – Loans and Investment – Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection;

Head 29 – Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Protection;

Head 27 – Public Service Management Division; and

Head 34 – Human Rights Commission.

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 8th December, 2011 the Business of the House will begin with questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2012 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following Votes will be considered:

Head 26 – Ministry of Information, Broadcasting and Tourism;

Head 31 – Ministry of Justice;

Head 33 – Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry; and

Head 46 – Ministry of Health.

Sir, on Friday, 9th December, 2011, the Business of the House will begin with the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by questions, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2012 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure to consider the following heads:

 Head 21 Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance and National Planning;

 Head 37 Ministry of Finance and National Planning; and

 Head 44 Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport.

Then, the House will deal with any outstanding issues that would not have been completed previously.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

___________________

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, yesterday, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia swore in members of the Technical Committee that was tasked to review and come up with a new Constitution.

Mr Speaker, based on my assumption that this Technical Committee was created under the Inquiries Act and if that is the position, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether this committee will make a submission of its findings to the Executive, which will thereafter consider and follow the procedures that have been followed, in the past, where the Government used to vet whatever recommendations came from such commissions.

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, the British Prime Minister, Mr David Cameroon, gave an interview on radio, this week, where he was asked what the worst moment of his week was. He said:

“Monday morning when I wake up and suddenly realise it is Prime Minister’s Question Time.”

In answering the hon. Member’s question, it is not convened under the Inquiries Act, but under Article 44 of the Constitution and there will be a white paper emanating from this group, which, incidentally, is not complete. His Excellency did not manage to swear in everybody, yesterday, because some people were out of town.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The question has not been completely answered. Are there any recommendations?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear, Chair!

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, there will be a referendum.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Kalaba (Bahati): Mr Speaker, would the Vice-President explain to this House what is motivating people like Mr Sakwiba Sikota, SC., Mr Benjamin Yorum Mwila and others to claim that Zambia is slowly becoming a police State and drifting into the dark ages.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there is a difference between a police service becoming active and investigating what are pertinently very interesting discoveries such as the presence of large amounts of money under a floor and a police State actually being established. A police State tends to imply that the basic human rights are not there; that the police are dragging people off the streets when they feel like and keeping them in detention for as long as possible without recourse to the law and so on and so forth. I am not aware that that situation has, anywhere near, come to pass since we took over seventy days ago.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, in view of the President’s pronouncement that the retirement age will be adjusted from fifty-five years to sixty-five years, I would like to know when the Government will bring legislation to this House to effect the adjustment.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we are in the process of amending the law, but my best guess will be in the next session of Parliament and not this current budgetary one.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, among the Back Benchers of the Patriotic Front are quite a number of brilliant young men, but your Government has continued to coerce and cajole hon. Members of the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) to join the PF Government, which we are terming as harassment. When is your Government going to stop doing this?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, we learnt these tricks from the previous governments.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I think, in 2001, if I remember correctly, several Opposition parties were destroyed effectively by seduction from the governing Executive. It is a miracle, perhaps, that the PF survived, intact, the raid on its so-called rebels during the last Parliament. Therefore, I apologise if we have learnt too well how to play this game.

Laughter

The Vice-President: However, I should imagine that it will get less serious as we win more by-elections.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, Zambia, on 1st December, joined the rest of the world in commemorating the World AIDS Day. Would His Honour the Vice-President tell this House that Zambia has made tremendous efforts and success in many of the health indicators. May he further confirm that to have these achievements, it takes political will, the technocrats, the non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and our co-operating partners.

Would His Honour the Vice-President tell this House that, having acknowledged these achievements, they were only arrived at by bad people? Could he, please, tell us what he means that these achievements were done by not so good people when these were Zambians?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, Hon. Chituwo has what we, sometimes, call a sense of humour deficit in medical terminology. I was teasing him, yesterday, when I was saying how well the anti-aids programmes – the Anti-retroviral virus drugs (ARV) roll out and so on and forth ─ had gone. When I saw him grinning contentedly to himself, I said, no, I will just say that he was not a good man at the same time. He should know very well that I admire the work that was done by the various parties together in rolling out the ARV programmes, which now covers 360,000 people. From the original target of 100,000, this is a very significant increase. Even the third line issue is being taken up competently as we take over the reins from you.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to know from the Vice-President when the Inspector-General of Police will release the list of corrupt people as he indicated in the public media.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think even Mr David Cameroon would be frightened by a question like that one. I am not party to that information.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Are you in Britain?

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, would His Honour the Vice-President tell the nation and House what successes the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has achieved in the fight against corruption in the sixty days it has been in office.

The Vice-President: I will not give an answer to that question, Mr Speaker, because, obviously, one could take up the rest of the twenty minutes with that, but I think the main thing is that we have changed the leadership in most of the organs, commissions and divisions that are involved in the fight against corruption. We have put back professionals who were removed from office for political reasons. That is the main thrust of our fight against corruption. As for individual incidents, like the famous K2.1 billion, I think when they are a small part, they are only a taste or eka dyonko of the fight against corruption.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Taima (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, State House is the apex of governance in our nation and this was underscored even by His Honour the Vice-President during his policy debate. He outlined our major units at State House such as the Presidential Secretariat, the Advisory Unit and Administration. Why is it taking so long for the PF Government to appoint advisers to the President when it is almost three months in Government?  Who is advising the President in the governance of our nation in highly specialised areas?

The Vice-President: Sir, we are all advisers to the President, if he wishes us to be. This includes professionals outside the House and hon. Members of the Opposition and even those who think they are only temporary opposition members, but we are in the Government. You are all available as advisers, I trust, should your input be required. As to when the ‘official adviser’ is going to be appointed, I am not party to that information and, maybe, even His Excellency the President himself is not.

Thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, the Government has a duty to protect the rights of its citizens and not allow foreign investors to mistreat local people. We have examples such as Albidon Nickel Mine, in Munali, and the Kalumbiya First Quantum Project, in the North-Western Province, that have not met their obligations. It has displaced people in Senior Chief Museli’s area. What are the compensation plans for the local people?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, yes, the Government is particularly concerned and my ministry is even more particularly concerned with the problem of internally displaced people. For example, that is why we are currently conducting a census in the Sichifulo Area as a prelude to resettling the people who were ejected from there. This is something that the last Government chickened out of doing. It did not have enough resolve to do that. These matters are being investigated and they will be corrected. We will accept refugees from anywhere outside Zambia, but we will not have refugees within Zambia. You can take that as an official statement of our intention. The hon. Minister of Labour, Sport and Youth is also looking into these matters. We are not going to have development at the expense of any Zambians’ rights to land and place to live.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, what is the Government doing about the hunger situation in the Luano Valley, particularly Ching’ombe, Mbosha, Chembe and Chinika?

The Vice-President: Sir, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), whose vote we will be considering after this half hour of torture, ...

Laughter

The Vice-President: … is distributing food in all the ten provinces of the country. If there are patches such as Ching’ombe Mission, for example, that are not being covered either by the DMMU, in association with the missionaries, or by any other means, I will be very grateful if the hon. Member would make that information known immediately to either me, personally, or the DMMU.

Thank you, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President has stated on the Floor of this House that the President would rather be corrected than strive to be consistent. This is a very serious statement coming from His Honour the Vice-President. Could he inform the nation that the President being inconsistent is the official policy of the Government?

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not know how the verbal argument sounds in Lozi, ...

Laughter

The Vice-President: ... but, in English, I think the question is a twisted one. I did not say it was the official policy. How can it be the official policy of any government to be inconsistent? I give up on this question.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President clearly stated here that the process for the new Constitution is going to be via the white paper. Does he not know that the people of Zambia, especially NGOs, reject that route for the Government to have a white paper because they are going to vet the recommendations of the people?

The Vice-President: Sir, from what I know from the swearing in, yesterday, and clearly heard from His Excellency the President was that this committee would basically establish its own procedures and recommend a way forward for the Constitution. So, various people may be guessing white papers or referenda. I think if I heard correctly, and I am sure I did, it was that it is the committee which contains my learned colleague, the hon. Minister of Justice, that will be recommending to His Excellency the President how the matter proceeds given the need to get finality in this constitutional issue.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, may I know if there is any political will to remove the vendors from the streets of Lusaka, especially Lumumba Road. If so, when will this be done?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there is currently a programme under which vendors are being reaccommodated in markets in consultation with the good people already in markets. The problem with vendors has been exacerbated by conflicts in the markets like the takeover by the Zambia National Markets Association (ZANAMA) and a certain previous local government hon. Minister to take over the New Soweto Market, which had resulted in a lot of people being pushed out onto the streets. So, we are trying to do the logical and sensible thing and resettle people in markets where they belong rather than allowing this kind of conflict to, again, displace persons similar to the rural cases that I mentioned earlier.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, in 1991, the people of Zambia, through the Movement for Multiparty Democracy (MMD), introduced multipartism and democracy. I would like to know whether the PF Government intends to re-introduce the One-Party State, considering that there are so many things happening, including the poaching of hon. Members from the MMD to join the Ruling Party.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mwalila!

Hon. Government Member: Taulalila.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it might be useful to impose a little standing order that people who ask questions during the Vice-President’s Question Time should have been in the House since the beginning of the Question Time because we have already answered the question about poaching hon. Members and re-introducing the One-Party State indirectly. So, I think I have already answered the question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr M. H. Malama: It is constitutional!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, in response to a question I asked His Honour the Vice-President, last week, he started by apologising to whoever was hurt by calling the Barotse issue foolish and went on to describe the commission of inquiry. My question was very simple and straightforward and I want to repeat it. What did the PF, while in opposition and before the riots, promise to deliver to the people of Barotseland once it was in power? Was it a commission of inquiry, the restoration of the Barotse Agreement, independence of Barotseland or nothing?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: It is not permitted to repeat a question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I want to find out whether the PF Government is founded on merit or trickery.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

You are waiting for a response.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is founded like any other Government that this country has ever had.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, on a sporting note, the Zambian people have, for a very long time, decried the lack of quality sporting infrastructure in this country, particularly football Stadia. At the time of leaving office, the MMD Government, through its Chinese friends, left an ultra modern stadium in Ndola which was completed in August. To date, it remains uncommissioned. When will this Government commission the Ndola Stadium so that the people can continue to enjoy the benefits of the MMD?

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I understand that that particular stadium is due to be commissioned on 11th December, 2011, whether or not the grass is grown yet.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr R. Phiri (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, the people of Chipata have asked me to ask how the current Government has created a new province. What parameters were taken into account?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the basic parameter taken into account is that the largest province was the Northern Province and that a division into two made good administrative and financial sense. I am glad that, in this particular respect, I am supported by the hon. Member for Mafinga who is on record as having said that this is a good idea. If you have similar ideas, please, bring them to the table.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, last time, we heard, on the Floor of this House, that His Honour the Vice-President comes from the North-Western Province. Now, this being the case, I would like to know if at all the headman, who is the Vice-President from that province, has already put up a programme to re-design Solwezi Town and whether he plans to also work on the road from Chingola to Solwezi.  Can he also state whether all villages in Mpidi and Shima chiefdoms will be electrified?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, please, note that you can just pose one question at a given time. I will ask His Honour the Vice-President to respond to the first question.

The Vice-President: I would refer the hon. Member to the Yellow Book and urge her to pass it into law as fast as we possibly can because the projects she is talking about are in the book.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, we know that all councils run guest houses as a source of income. Last Sunday, the President gave away Mpandafishala Guest House, in Mpika, to the Catholic Church. I would like to know why this was so.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, ‘Mpandamishala’, if that is how you pronounce it, so far as I recall having once been a Member of Parliament for Mpika, was in those days very dilapidated. I should imagine that now it is extremely dilapidated. I would think that the gesture was meant to result in the renovation of that structure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, in his speech, the President assured the nation that all the MMD programmes which were in progress, will be completed before embarking on new ones. Could his Honour the Vice-President assure the nation that the D5 Road connecting Solwezi to Jimbe is one of those roads that will be completed despite the fact that the contractor has been withdrawn. Could His Honour the Vice-President assure the nation that the project will be continued?

The Vice-President: All the road projects, especially the ones that were introduced towards the time of the election, are in the process of being reviewed. We are of the view, as a Government, to cancel some cases as we have seen, recently, in Chisamba. However, in all cases, we shall strive to complete the projects.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President state what he meant by temporary opposition hon. Members, considering that there are a lot of election petitions before the courts of law?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are three kinds of hon. Members of Parliament in this House. One is the kind that was on the left side, but is now on the right side. The other is the kind that was on the left side and is still on that side. The other ones are those that were here and they have somehow managed to remain here by virtue of some …

Dr Scott looked at Mrs Masebo

Laughter

The Vice-President: Welcome, hon. Member for Chongwe.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Your Honour the Vice-President, the question has not been answered.

Dr Scott:  Mr Speaker, I was simply naming the ones who have been consistently on the left side as dedicated opposition hon. Members whereas the rest of us are more flippity gibbets and are temporary both on the left side and on the right side. That is all I was saying. I am sorry if the joke was not very good.

I thank you Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, the creation of Muchinga Province and the restoration of the Barotse Agreement were campaign promises. When will this Government restore the Barotse Agreement?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thought it was fairly plain that a commission of inquiry set up to look into the legal, political and social attitudes of the different groups in the Western Province was an obvious precursor to making a decision with the agreement of the maximum number of people in the Western Province as to what to do about the Barotseland Agreement and all issues arising therefrom.

Therefore, I mean, patience is indicated. We are not even at the end of the ninety days yet.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi-West): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

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QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

POVERTY DATUM LINE

43. Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa) asked the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning when the Government would come up with a poverty datum line.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mrs Mwamba): Mr Speaker, Parliament has, on a number of occasions, resolved that the Government should put in place a poverty datum line for the purposes of protecting the workers in the low income brackets from being exploited as well as providing some minimum standards of living for Zambians.

However, Parliament has, at the same time, called for caution in coming up with a poverty datum line as the move might create economic difficulties in implementing the poverty datum line.

Mr Speaker, a poverty datum line specifies the amount of income an average family needs to meet the cost of basic needs which, essentially, include food and non-food items. It is a representation of the cost of an agreed upon standard of living that must be attained if a representative household is to evade poverty.

However, it has become common to confuse statistical poverty lines that many national statistical offices use for poverty assessment with the poverty datum line. In this case, statistical poverty lines merely provide the starting point for determining the poverty datum line.

Sir, a poverty datum line is more than just a statistical poverty line in the sense that its determination is based on a broad-based consensus.

Mr Speaker, in the case of Zambia, to determine the poverty datum line would require that the Government takes the matter to Cabinet and thereafter, constitutes a committee of stakeholders, comprising, mainly, the ministries of Finance and National Planning, and Labour, Sport and Youth, Cabinet Office and the Labour Unions, Nutrition Commissions and National Statistical Office.

Sir, it is, therefore, important to note that no single ministry or institution can come up with a poverty datum line. The poverty datum line can only be determined through a broad-based consensus involving key stakeholders and experts given the above requirements and the expected financial implications.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has accepted that the poverty datum line can be formulated. When will the Government engage all the stakeholders she has mentioned in order to come up with a poverty datum line?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, we know, as a Government, that the Zambian people are expecting to have more money in their pockets and live decently. We want to put systems in place and in a sequential manner. We do not want to do things in a hurry and have them crumble at the end of the day.

Sir, it has been stated that all stakeholders must be engaged so that a poverty datum line can be determined. At an appropriate time, this will be done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi-Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that one of the items to be considered when considering the poverty datum line is the financial implication. Today, world leaders have met in Berlin to consider the Euro-zone and the United States of America (USA) debt crisis.

Sir, 10 per cent of our Budget is supposed to be funded through the issuance of the US$500 million bond. In the event that we fail to issue this bond, how do we hope to fund this 10 per cent of the Budget?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I think speculation is not always appropriate.

Hon. Government Member: Yes!

Mr Chikwanda: The proposed bond of US$500 million is most likely to be over-subscribed.

I thank you, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, the poverty datum line is not a formular that may address the plight of some of the categories of our population. I am specifically referring to the aged, especially those above seventy or seventy-five years and are in such a desperate state of life.

Sir, I am sure, hon. Members of Parliament are aware of their state. Is the Government, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, considering extending some form of welfare to such categories of our population who are at the apex of the pyramid of life, but in a state of squalor and poverty.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, what the hon. Member has raised is a profound issue. Resources permitting, the Government would want to do that. This question revolves around the availability of resources. We all realise that our resource envelope is extremely small and we may not be in a position to achieve what the hon. Member has requested.

Mr Speaker, our priority, as citizens of this country, is to grow the economy, which we are not doing very successfully.

All those issues of social welfare are clearly predicated on the ability of the economy to provide such needs. Therefore, until such a time that we can grow the economy to correct proportions, we will be severely constrained to meet most aspirations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has informed this House that the resource envelope is very small. Why is the Government making a lot of promises whose costs to fulfill exceed the envelope? These are promises such as electrifying Chongwe …

Hon. Opposition Members: All villages!

 Mr Ntundu: … and all villages and also listing the problems of the Catholic Church?

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, having limited resources does not mean that we should not aim high. Providing electricity to most parts of the country is not beyond fulfillment. At the moment, there are many hydro power stations that are being constructed. There is also a lot of funding that is being extended to the Zambia Electricity Supply Co-operation (ZESCO) either through our limited resources or through external resources, courtesy of the donors. Therefore, some of the programmes we have hinted of rural electrification are not beyond reach. It is just a question of time. You do not construct hydro power stations within months. They take a bit of time. Gestation is a bit long. Those are things that we should aim for. We should change the country and supply electricity to as many parts of it as possible. We cannot have a situation where our villages remain perpetually at Stone Age.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning whether the ministry has carried out a road show on the US$500 million bond to see if there is a possibility of over subscribing, and if so, whether it does not consider the dependence on this particular bond risky.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, the situation is that we have been mandated by banks, both local and international, to make inquiries about the proposed sovereign bond issue. Most of them would like to have the opportunity to syndicate the bond issue, but the preferred way by the Government is to put this matter to tender. In this regard, we are in the process of preparing a tender so that the various banks are all given an opportunity to make their bids which will then be decided upon by the appropriate authorities. Nothing is being done in an opaque way. The era of doing things that way is gone. We now want to entrench transparency and full accountability because the money we raise by issuance of sovereign bonds has to be paid by the people of Zambia. Therefore, we do not want to overburden posterity with irresponsible borrowings which the country will not be able to service. Everything is being done transparently and, soon, the hon. Members of Parliament will see the tender advertised in all our papers.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

__________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 09 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – K3,230,340,484).

(Consideration resumed)

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, before I proceed, I would like to congratulate the three new hon. Members of Parliament who have joined us on winning the by-elections and, incidentally, one of them is seated next to me. You are welcome.

Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, yesterday, I was talking about the issues that are affecting teachers. If I am right, yesterday, I heard Hon. Request Muntanga saying that we lose about 8,000 teachers, every year, through various means. I would like to urge the Teaching Service Commission to urgently recruit teachers to replace these teachers because, in circumstances like this, it is the rural schools that are affected. I already mentioned the discipline issues. The children in the rural areas are really suffering because they are not getting the best service in education. Therefore, the Teaching Service Commission should look into the plight of rural schools that are faced with challenges left, right and centre.

Mr Chairperson, in many schools, in both urban and rural areas, most headmasters have been in their positions for a long time. Their juniors get promoted to District Education Board Secretaries (DEBSs) and leave them at the same level. This is very demotivating.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order pertaining to the statements we make on the Floor of this House. I have The Post Newspaper for Friday, 2nd December, 2011, on the statement made by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, pertaining to the Constitution Review Technical Committee that was constituted. I also want to refer to the answer to my question that was given by His Honour the Vice-President pertaining to the issue of the Constitution Review Technical Committee. His Honour the Vice-President indicated that there will be a referendum that will take place after the Constitution Review Technical Committee has made its report. However, …

An Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, that is the problem of not attending Parliament in time.

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: Order! Why are you engaging him?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, …

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: Hold on. Let us not do that. Give him the time to raise his point of order. Do not ask what his point of order is. He has a paper to quote from. If we are to move quickly, let us not distract him.

Can you continue.

Hon. Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, yesterday, when His Excellency the President was swearing in the committee, in the story carried on page 4 of The Post Newspaper, addressing the Chairperson of the Committee, Retired Chief Justice Annel Silungwe, he said:

“Do not be bothered about the referendum. It will not be in the terms of reference. It will come from your committee. If your committee feels that there is a contentious issue that needs the consent of the people, then, you will recommend to us and we will be able to address it.”

Mr Chairperson, this is a contradiction from what His Honour the Vice-President has mentioned on the Floor of the House. Why is the Government contradicting itself on a very important national issue that affects the people of this country? We have a statement from His Excellency the President saying something different from what His Honour the Vice-President indicated; that there will be a referendum without referring to the terms of reference of the technical committee. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Very quickly, if I recall, His Honour the Vice-President corrected himself. He admitted the position is as you are quoting.

Can Hon. Imenda continue. 

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that it is important that the Teaching Service Commission looks into these issues. In fact, I would go as far as suggesting that there should be an audit of promotions by the commission in this aspect so that we see how many people have not been noticed or promoted to motivate them.

Mr Chairperson, it is also motivating to promote teachers that have undertaken studies and are newly qualified. They should be considered for promotion to serve as an example for others to improve themselves. Others should be able to see that it pays to get extra qualifications. 

Mr Chairperson, when it comes to Government sponsorship for further studies, teachers in rural areas are at a disadvantage. This is because the procedure for applying, in places such as Sikongo or Kaputa, is so cumbersome that they end up giving up. I urge the Teaching Service Commission to look at these issues seriously.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, back to the Yellow Book, I note that Programme 5007 – Activity 001 – Suppliers of Goods and Service, has no allocation. Last year, there was a provision of K40 million but, this year, there is completely nothing. This leaves me wondering why it is so.

Mr Chairperson, I hope that this is not one of those issues that we are all aware of where suppliers of goods and service are owed arrears. They will, again, fall back into destitution because the Government is not paying those that have already provided the goods and services.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I beg to move.

Mr Mwewa (Mwansabombwe): Mr Chairperson, I would like to add my voice to the debate on this Vote, which I support very much.

Mr Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission in Zambia, today, has too much red tape. When I talked to teachers at Mable Shaw Secondary School and other basic schools, in Mwansabombwe, they expressed frustrations over similar problems that they were experiencing with the commission.

I was told that, during the Federal Government, correspondence between teachers and the commission only took about three months. Every problem could be sorted within those three months. In the last ten years of the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) Government, however, it would take two years, if one was lucky, or more. In most cases there is no correspondence at all.

Mr Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission is supposed to employ, confirm and promote teachers. The problem I discovered is that, when a teacher is promoted to deputy head or a deputy head to head teacher, it takes about two years to change the salary scale. The Teaching Service Commission does not act accordingly. It takes too much time. There is too much inefficiency. I hope that with the budget increment, it will change its attitude. I urge the PF Government and His Excellency the President to seriously look into this issue because teachers are being demoralised.

Mr Chairperson, to boost the morale of teachers, the commission must improve the way it handles issues. I know that we are inheriting a system that was bad. However, I think that the gallant crew of the Patriotic Front (PF) should be able to change things, hence, the increment in the amount allocated to the Teaching Service Commission.

Mr Chairperson, confirmation of teachers should take three months. Should someone wait for two years to be confirmed? A deputy head teacher that has been confirmed to a position of head teacher will work for two years without his or her salary scale being changed. When, finally, the salary scale changes, the commission does not take into consideration the fact that the person had been working for four years in the new position before the salary scale was changed. They still continue to pay him or her the same salary as before. I strongly feel that we should look into this. 
  
Mr Chairperson, even writing a letter of retirement and recommendation for payment, the Teaching Service Commission will take two to three years. If one follows up this issue, he/she will even find that the documentation has gone missing or is non-existent.

Sir, before we talk about the increment of salaries, therefore, we should talk about the change of mentality and attitude towards work. What is it that we are not doing for the commission to improve its service delivery, which is bad and has to be looked into? I appeal to my Government and to His Excellency the President to look into this so that teachers are motivated. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, I note that most speakers are strongly in support of this institution and want it to be given even more money in future. We take note of that and agree wholeheartedly with you. I want to thank you all.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 09/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 19– (Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit– Headquarters K67,654,093,720).

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all hon. Members, firstly, for letting the Teaching Services Commission Vote pass painlessly. It is the first painless experience I have had this morning.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Sir, as the hon. Members of Parliament are aware, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) is one of the four departments under my office. The minds of the hon. Members are still fresh regarding my policy statement for the Office of the Vice-President, which I made on Wednesday, 30th November, 2011.

For reasons that are not entirely logical, the DMMU is under a separate Head in the Yellow Book or Budget. In some years, it is discussed together with the Office of the Vice-President and in others, it is separated as an orphan. I do not know what will happen, in the future but, this time, we are dealing with it as if it were a different commission or division even though it is just one department under the Office of the Vice-President.

Allow me, Mr Chairperson, to bring to the attention of the hon. Members of Parliament the two main justifications for the existence and importance of a disaster management agency like the DMMU in the country.

The rationale for the existence of a disaster management agency is globally, and in Zambia in particular, premised on two fundamental considerations namely, social safety net and economic aspects.

Social Safety Net

Disaster management and mitigation is a key element in the broader social safety net of any country, Zambia included. As the rationale of the National Disaster Management Policy of 2005 indicates, a state has the primary responsibility of creating a safe environment within which its citizens must prosper. As and when the social safety net is endangered or threatened, the state has a moral obligation to preserve it, hence the need for an agency that has the capacity and the speed required to restore physical security within the shortest possible time.

Economic

Another consideration is economic. If a national economy is not disaster-resilient or disaster-proof, the gains from economic development cannot be guaranteed as they risk being wiped out within seconds should there emerge a disaster. I think that the Japanese Earthquake disaster and the Japanese’s response to it give very good illustration of how an economy can be threatened, but preserved by a very effective management mechanism.

Sir, there is, therefore, a need for any national economy to be made disaster-resilient through mainstreaming of disaster risks reduction interventions in development programming in key sectors of the economy.

I should mention here, Mr Chairperson, that the Disaster Management Bill was enacted and assented to last year in April. This Act gives legal backing to the operations of the department and the entire disaster management regime in the country. For this reason, I appeal to the hon. Members of Parliament and, through them, the general public, to support the department as it embarks on the aggressive agenda to implement the provisions of the Act. To this effect, my office has set aside K67,654,093,720 to attend to matters of disaster risk reduction, preparedness and response. The main considerations underpinning the DMMU 2012 Budget are as follows:

(i) the paradigm (mindset) shift from disaster management to disaster risk management, which has affected the spending pattern as the emphasis is, now, on disaster prevention, mitigation and preparedness;

(ii) the mainstreaming of environmental factors into disaster prevention, mitigation and preparedness;

(iii) the mainstreaming of disaster risk reduction (DRR) activities in the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP), thus triggering the need to mainstream the activities in the key sectors of the economy;

(iv) the need for the immediate implementation of the provisions of Disaster Management Act, No. 13 of 2010; and

(v) the establishment of DMMU offices in the ten provinces, effectively bringing DMMU entities to eleven inclusive of Headquarters at the Addis Ababa Roundabout.

Mr Chairperson, as stated earlier, it has been acknowledged, in recent times, that climate change related hazards and disasters, in general, have the potential to reverse gains in a national economy. This is why the Patriotic Front Government’s immediate move is to shift from disaster management to disaster risk management through appropriate levels of investment in disaster risk reduction and preparedness activities.

With regard to the level of disaster preparedness for the 2011/2012 Rainy Season, allow me, Sir, to state that the Government is adequately prepared as a number of disaster prevention and mitigation activities are being put in place. Having said that, I would like to also say that the hon. Members of this House need to understand that we cannot fully anticipate and prepare for all disasters or eventualities. The best this Government, through my office, can do is to continue placing emphasis on risk reduction and taking disaster management as a responsibility of all of us. For this reason, I appeal to the hon. Members of this House to support the 2012 DMMU Budget as it must be seen as an investment for a safer tomorrow.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Vote on the Floor, which I totally support.

Sir, in supporting the Vote, allow me to commend the Management at the DMMU. I often visit this office. As an early riser, what impresses me is that, each time I go there, by 0730 hours, the workers are already on the premises. The reception is still good and I would like to encourage them to continue with this spirit.

Mr Chairperson, allow me also to congratulate Mr Mulenga on his promotion. He is now a Permanent Secretary. I am sure we all know that, at one time, he was Director of the DMMU and, through his hard work, he was promoted to the position of Permanent Secretary some time last year or the beginning of this year.

Sir, I wish to pay tribute to this unit as it has, now, opened offices in all provincial centres, I may be corrected, in order to mitigate the problems from the disasters.

Nonetheless, Mr Chairperson, there is a need for this office to go down to the districts. I am aware that, currently, the functions of the DMMU are being undertaken by the District Commissioners through the District Disaster Management Committee, but it is important that we have fully-fledged offices in the districts.

Mr Chairperson, we have disasters in these districts, therefore, it becomes very difficult to co-ordinate the functions from the provincial level and, indeed, from the national level. So, opening of fully-fledged district offices, I think, would help.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about one function that this unit has done effectively, which is the co-ordination of the food distribution exercise to areas affected by disasters. I have areas in my constituency along the Lunsemfwa River bordering Mkushi which require some kind of food relief every year. While the DMMU is doing a good job, I note that it takes a bit of time to pay transporters and as a result, they do not take the food to the needy areas on time. When one inquires why food is taken to Shikabeta instead of Chomba and Lubalashi, the answer is that the transporters are not paid on time. Consequently, the food is taken to Shikabeta instead of Chomba which is about 50 km away and the terrain is not good. How will the people get the food if it is marooned 50 km away from the point where it is supposed to be?

Mr Chairperson, it is, therefore, important that this unit is supported. The support I am talking about, obviously, involves increasing the allocation to this Vote so that this unit is able to buy some all-weather friendly vehicles that can reach these very difficult areas. Otherwise, as I stand here, I am worried about what will be done in the areas that I have talked about: Chomba, Shikabeta, Lubalashi and Shimungule, in my constituency, which are having difficulties with food. It is important for something to be done as quickly as possible.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I wish to thank you.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief. This is an extremely important unit in our country. I am, therefore, happy that His Honour the Vice-President has made reference to the fact that a unit like this one considers the moral aspects of governance. Indeed, it is through the DMMU that the moral imperatives of governance come into being because those that are affected by disasters are in desperate conditions and need the sympathy and immediate care of the Government. That is why a unit like this one has been created in order for the Government to respond in a humane way to the needs of the people who are in desperate conditions.

I would like to join my colleague, Hon. Chipungu, in commending the staff of the DMMU, especially the National Co-ordinator, Mr Mulenga, who I think has performed extremely well. Mr Mulenga always has answers right at his finger tips and should there be any need for him to physically go and have an on-the-spot check on a particular locality, he will make every effort to do so.

I think, in him, we have an example of what it means to provide public service in the most efficient and effective manner possible. I am happy that, through what he has been able to display in executing the affairs of that particular unit, he has, indeed, been rewarded with a promotion to Permanent Secretary level. I hope that more of our people who are providing public service will be able to emulate the working spirit of Mr Mulenga.

Mr Chairperson, this particular unit has done a lot in recent years. I would have expected His Honour the Vice-President to shed some light on the works that have been done and where we are, as a country, especially as regards to responding to the challenge of rehabilitating washed away bridges for which, last year, a sum of more than K25 billion was allocated. A lot of work has been going on whereby even our military personnel have been engaged to do rehabilitation works on washed away bridges in the country. I think it would have been interesting and extremely important to get some highlights on how far we have gone in that national undertaking.

Furthermore, again last year, a sum of K15 billion or more was allocated for works on drainage systems in various locations. I think it would have been interesting and extremely important for us to listen to His Honour the Vice-President highlighting how those works have commenced and where we are as a nation with regard to such works which are extremely important to our people.

Mr Chairperson, looking at the Budget itself, I see that there have been some extreme reductions in allocations, especially for the operationalisation of provincial offices. Again, it would have been important for us to just listen to His Honour the Vice-President highlighting, for example, why the provincial allocations have been reduced drastically. I think they have been reduced by more than K4 billion from last year’s allocation.

It would have also been interesting for His Honour the Vice-President to highlight, for example, what is going to be done with the huge sums of money that have been allocated for equipment procurement. It would have been good for His Honour the Vice-President to tell us which equipment is going to be procured and for what purpose and, probably, what results are expected to be achieved as far as disaster management and mitigation issues are concerned in our country.

Furthermore, quite a lot of money, I think more than K6 billion, has been allocated for infrastructure development. Again, His Honour the Vice-President could have done us a service by highlighting what infrastructure the Government hopes to develop. I think the policy statement from His Honour the Vice-President should have been more detailed so that, as a nation and as representatives of the people, we are informed on what is going to happen.

Mr Kambwili: Were yours detailed?

Professor Lungwangwa: Yes, they were.

Mr Chairperson, looking at the works the DMMU is doing with respect, for example, to our concerns in Nalikwanda Constituency, I am happy to say that washed-away bridges or culverts at Litawa and Liande, where some wards were completely cut-off, have now been attended to. The people are extremely happy with the works that have been going on since May, this year.

The officers from the Zambia National Service (ZNS) have been on the ground doing the reconstruction works. However, we still have the challenges being faced by the Nakanya culvert which will significantly result in the cutting off of a big portion of Nalikwanda Constituency. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to attend to that problem which is seriously affecting the livelihood of the people of Nalikwanda. Since the other materials are already on site, I believe that it is just a matter of putting a few things together. I am happy that His Honour the Vice-President has stressed the importance of the moral imperative that is behind this particular unit. I would have loved to see more details in His Honour the Vice-President’s policy statement.

With these few comments, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Chairperson, I want to support the allocation to the DMMU. I want to start by first congratulating the hon. Members of Parliament who have just been elected in by-elections in Nakonde, Magoye and Chongwe. They are all most welcome to this House. Their presence has made those of us who came here earlier to suddenly feel seasoned.

Laughter

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Chairperson, the DMMU is a very important unit. I want to associate myself with the comments that have just been made by Hon. Chipungu and Professor Lungwangwa. At the risk of repeating some of the good things they have already said, I would just like to add one or two things to what they said.

Mr Chairperson, this unit cannot be placed in a better office than the Office of the Vice-President. It is a fast growing unit which almost has the status of a ministry. I am sure that His Honour the Vice-President is already fully aware that the major challenge facing this unit, at the moment, is operationalising the Disaster Management Act. I am pleased to note that funding has been provided in the Budget to operationalise this Act. It is this Act that will make it possible for the DMMU to do certain things which we want it to do.

Mr Chairperson, I also would like to commend His Honour the Vice-President for continuing with the plan to open up provincial offices for this important unit. This already shows the need to increase funding to this unit. I have observed that, in the Budget, the allocation to the unit has increased only by a mere K7 billion. I hope that, in future, this unit can receive much more consideration as its functions in the provinces are going to grow, especially when, as Hon. Chipungu mentioned, its programmes begin to be implemented at the district level.

Mr Chairperson, I want to re-emphasise what the other hon. Members have talked about regarding disaster prevention. I think this is the way to go. Provisions are there which can help us to prevent disasters. The opening up of provincial offices with good funding and further decentralisation to the district level are part of the initiatives which can help us to prevent disasters. We have to focus on preventing disasters. Most of the disasters that we are spending billions of kwachas on are those that we knew were going to happen. As we sit here hon. Members, we know that there will be a disaster in Kanyama. I know that the hon. Member for Kanyama will agree with me that Kanyama is always a disaster waiting to happen. I think, with preventive measures, those disasters could be taken care of and we would not need to spend billions of kwacha to transfer our population out of Kanyama and Misisi to other areas where there is less water.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to re-emphasise that as we head towards this preventive approach, we should provide adequate funding and manpower for the provincial officers. Our current efforts are commendable. There is, probably, not more than one officer in each of the provincial offices. These officers are, however, usually overwhelmed with their workload. The functions of the unit are beginning to grow because more citizens are starting to appreciate the services by the various departments in the Office of the Vice-President.

Mr Chairperson, the Disaster Management Act does refer to the Disaster Trust Fund. This sounds very encouraging because having funds already placed at the district or provincial level will mean that there will be quicker responses to disasters as most of them happen without warning. For now, the fund is just part of our wish list since there is no money which is currently being provided for provincial offices to respond to disasters. Now that funding has been provided, in the Yellow Book, to operationalise the Act, we hope that the trust fund will become a reality so that disasters can be responded to quickly at the district level.

Mr Chairperson, I want to commend Hon. Professor Lungwangwa for his contribution regarding the work of the Service Department.

The Chairperson: Order! Let me provide some guidance. Hon. Simfukwe, I have been listening very carefully to your debate. You have been doing a good job. However, I wish to urge you to bear in mind that one of the cardinal rules of this House is that hon. Members should try as much as possible to avoid repeating what others have said. It is alright to be in general agreement with what has already been stated on the Floor of the House. Kindly take note of that cardinal rule.

May you continue.

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Chairperson, when repairing infrastructure in the provinces, there is a tendency by the DMMU to only work with the Road Development Agency (RDA). I think that the DMMU should also work with the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) because the RDA, as it stands in the provinces, has no equipment. It just ends up facilitating a working relationship between the DMMU office and the RRU in certain instances. It would be better for this linkage to be fomalised as we seek to properly implement the 2012 Budget. There should be a clear recognition that the RRU is the right partner to the DMMU when it comes to improving or repairing infrastructure after disasters.

There is also a need to improve the way we administer relief food. Since relief food will always be a very important part of the operations of the DMMU, there is a need to link it to some, maybe, labour based methods. Great benefits could be derived from encouraging communities at lower levels to do some minor labour works before they are given relief food. This will be like killing two birds with one stone. This is because we will be improving some of the small roads in the villages and, at the same time, we will be providing relief food to the people through the DMMU.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the distribution of relief food during election periods. Disasters happen whether there are elections or not. It will be helpful to have clear guidelines on the distribution of relief food during election periods. Hon. Members will agree with me that there are several incidences when relief food has suspiciously been given out during elections in a particular area. It will, therefore, help if the linkage was built between disaster management and the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) to clarify on the distribution of relief food during elections or just before elections.

In conclusion, as I said, I was only adding to what hon. Members have already said, I see the importance of identifying crossings.

Mr Chairperson, in the Northern Province, there was an identification of about 350 crossings, which if were attended to just as at now or if efforts were made to repair them, they would cost much less. I think this is reflective of all the provinces. There is a need, in our preventive measures, to recognise that when we identify those crossings and they are attended to on time, they would cost less money. The use of the National Service and Zambia Army scouts and other services, including prisoners, will certainly be a very cost effective way of attending to some of these crossings.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I did not realise that this is a popular subject and if you did not regulate it, we would be here the whole day.

I fully take the points made by the three speakers. I would urge hon. Members who are interested in the operations of this unit to study the Yellow Book carefully because many of the issues that were raised are already covered there. For example, the question of the Disaster Trust Fund, Programme 3144, Activity 018 ─ Operationalisation of District Disaster Management Trust Fund Accounts ─ K57,947,500, a provision is made to it. Likewise, for the operationalisation of regional offices, see page 367 of the Yellow Book.

Sir, I do think that although it may sound a bit defensive, the information is here and the policy statement I gave is about as detailed as is possible to get without really chewing up the time of the House.

As Hon. Lungwangwa should know by now, because I sent them a copy of it, the Nakanya Crossing point is due, weather permitting, for completion even this year. However, if the weather does not permit, it will be completed next year.

The point made by Hon. Simfukwe about elections shows up very markedly in the Yellow Book where there are big changes in allocation between one year and another. I do not know whether it is significant, but when I was doing my own physical inspection of the DMMU, so far, this year, its work in the field has been in Muchinga Constituency where I see a number of bridges or crossing points, as they are called in the Yellow Book, were being constructed before the elections.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Kambwili: George Kunda!

The Vice-President: I am glad that Hon. Kunda, SC. has woken up at my mention of his name.

Laughter

The Vice-President: With those few words, I thank everybody and urge you to support this vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours{mospagebreak}

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

The Chairperson: When business was suspended, His Honour the Vice-President had just wound up debate. We now move on to individual items under this Vote.

VOTE 19/01 (Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit – Headquarters – K374,375,000).

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, on Programme 3109, Activity 001 Preparation Workshop plan and Budget Estimates ─ K374, 375, 000. There is an increase of more than five times. I would like to hear what this budget line, which will make a difference between this year’s provision and the one that is planned for next year, is all about.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, this activity was under general administration in the 2011 Budget. This new provision is required to meet the cost of venues and materials for the preparation of the Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) Budget Framework paper on estimates and the preparation of work plans for the coming year. The increase is due to the increased number of officers taking part arising from the opening of regional offices.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3001, Activity – 029 – Operationalisation of Provincial DMMU Offices – K550, 000,000, I have seen that there is a huge drop from K4, 590,000,000 to K550, 000,000. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to justify why there is this huge drop.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to meet cost of making the new regional offices operational. The reduction has arisen from the fact that the upfront activities, that is furniture and vehicles, were budgeted for in 2011 and the activity was already carried out in 2011. The Budget for 2012 is for the new regional office in Muchinga Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3144, Activity 003 – Procurement of Essential Disaster Response Equipment K5,004,200,000, the budget for this year is K182,374,375. This has been increased to K5, 004, 200,000. Would His Honour the Vice-President explain this huge stage in the allocation to this budget line?

The Vice-President: This is a new activity and is meant to facilitate the procurement of essential equipment for effective response to any disasters. This particular entry here is meant to provide a budget line for procurement and bailey bridges, a 50 tonne crane and special support vehicles for effective disaster response.

It must be emphasised here that the proposed budget to this activity, in 2011, was, in fact, K80 billion and was unilaterally cut to the figure appearing, in 2011, by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, Programme 3144, Activity 001 – Operations and Maintenance of Plant and Equipment – K4,749,090,000. Which plant and equipment is this?

The Vice-President: This provision is required to meet the cost of operations and maintenance of plant equipment to enable the DMMU respond in a timely fashion to emergency situations. The increase has arisen from the establishment and operationalisation of the new DMMU provincial offices as well as the increase needed to maintain the rural road units and the ZNS equipment deployed in the countrywide rehabilitation of crossing points and drainage.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3146, Activity 009 – Facilitate Emergency Rehabilitation of Culverts and Bridges – K3, 500,000,000. There has been a significant reduction in the 2012 Budget compared to the 2011 Budget. Given that we are likely to experience ...

The Chairperson: Order! I think the question has been understood. You want to know why there has been a drastic reduction.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this activity facilitates the emergency rehabilitation of culverts and bridges. The reduction has arisen from the need to make upward adjustments on other programmes and activities as mentioned earlier. The level of resources, which have been committed to the current countrywide programme, are adequate to cover the on-going programme with the amount reflected under the 2012 Budget. As it appears to be saying here, we have broken the back of the emergency culvert programme in 2011 or, maybe, we still have equipment and materials.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3148, Activity 002 – M & E Field Trips and Data Collection. Why has this programme been done away with since it is very important?

The Vice-President: Sir, I am quite sure that it has been moved and if the hon. Member is patient, she will hear where it has been moved to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3144, Activity 007 – Purchase of ICT Software and Hardware – K356,200,000. There is a huge increase from K54,786,625 to K356,200,000.

The Vice-President:  Mr Chairperson, the quite large increase is due, again, to the scaling up of activities due to the decentralisation of the DMMU to provinces.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3146, Activity 004 – Facilitate Emergency Rehabilitation of Drainage System and Sanitation – K1,000,000,000. The allocation to it has been reduced drastically from K15,515,640,397 to K1 billion. Can His Honour the Vice-President explain why this is so?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this provision is meant to continue facilitating works on drainages in the country. The reduction has arisen from the need to make upward adjustments on other programmes and activities as mentioned earlier.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 19/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – K29,918,358,171).

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this chance to deliver this policy debate on Head 16 – Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC).

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Members of the House are aware that Zambia has recently witnessed the rise in the number of its nationals being arrested in other countries for drug trafficking related offences. The ministry has taken this matter with serious concern and will conduct a comprehensive research to establish the underlying causes so that appropriate interventions are instituted during 2012. The ministry will implement other immediate interventions that will include, among other things, sensitisation of our general public, in particular, our young women. In addition, the ministry will focus on improving international liaison with our missions abroad by sending the DEC officers to our missions abroad, especially in countries on the Asian Continent and the Middle East, where such cases involving Zambians are more pronounced. To this effect, the ministry will also focus on expanding the current infrastructure countrywide to extend the coverage for the DEC. The ministry will also put up more structures, especially in the Central, Copperbelt and Eastern provinces.

Mr Chairperson, in view of the various policy interventions mentioned above, I wish to urge all hon. Members of this august House to support the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Drug Enforcement Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to congratulate the new hon. Members who have joined the House, particularly my dear sister, Hon. Masebo, on being the only one to bounce back to this side of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: I actually remember her very well, being an ardent listener to …

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo was standing.

The Chairperson: Order means that you sit down. While I appreciate what you are about to say, I just want to seize the opportunity to advise the hon. Members on my right that it is in the interest of all of us, particularly those on my right, that we should move fast. Therefore, while I appreciate that you want to congratulate your colleagues, it has to be done briefly. Do not take too long.

You may continue.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to make a few comments in support of the Vote to this important security wing.

Mr Chairperson, this is an important security wing in the nation. It is charged with many responsibilities. It is this security wing which is supposed to screen the investors that are trooping into the country to ensure that the investments that they are bringing in are genuine. It is this security wing which ensures that the country’s economy is not sabotaged.

Mr Chairperson, I am sure that all the hon. Members would agree with me that this department needs to improve public perception because, not too long ago, it was seen to be used as a political tool to persecute people on the political field. I say so because we saw it persecuting people who were doing transactions through the banks. They would investigate them and end up with nothing, and yet the same people who were using them were the ones who were burying money underground. Those are very serious crimes.

Hon. Government Member: Waiting for it to germinate.

Mr Kampyongo: They were supposed to prevent some of those activities. Unfortunately, they concentrated …

Hon. Member: On burying.

Mr Kampyongo: … on playing to the political whims and, therefore, abandoned their core functions. With the revelations that we have just learnt about, it is very saddening to know that crime was being committed at the backyard of this important security wing. We have learnt of how some exhibits, which were in their …

The Chairperson: Order!

By way of guidance, I want to reiterate what I said earlier. It is in the interest of all of us here, particularly hon. Members on my right because this is the Government Budget, to not open a Pandora’s box because, then, we might spend a long time on the same things. You need the support of the hon. Members so that we can continue moving fast on the Budget.

Mr Kampyongo: I thank you for your guidance. What I am simply saying is that, as we support the allocations to this institution, we want to give them money which they are going to use professionally and prudently on important issues of national security. We do not want them to continue conducting themselves like they did in the past.

With these few comments, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, I thank you and the hon. Member who has just spoken. We will take into consideration all your submissions. In fact, the PF is not involved in using the DEC to persecute anybody on our left. We will make sure that we do not allow that to happen. As far as I am concerned, it is this Government’s position that it does not interfere in the operations of all the security wings.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

VOTE 16/01 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Headquarters – K27,417, 753, 464).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 244, Programme 4007, Activity 003 – Goods and Services and Activity 009 – Other PE Related Arrears. There is no provision made for next year. Does it mean that the arrears will be cleared by the end of this year?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, the commission cleared all the arrears. That is why these activities have not been budgeted for in 2012.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 245, Programme 4044, Activity 001 – Officers’ Rations. I observe that there is no allocation to this activity. I do not understand what will be used to fund this operation.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, officers in the PS scale will be receiving mealie-meal allowance on their pay slips like their colleagues in the Police and Prisons Service. This activity has been dropped in 2012. This was a policy announcement by His Excellency the President early this year.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 246, Programme 4013, Activity 012 – Southern African Development Community (SADC) Electoral Observer Missions – K31, 464, 855. This appears to be the only activity on this programme. What would be the role of the DEC in these SADC Electoral Observations?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, this is required to monitor elections in SADC countries in 2012. This is a new activity.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4003, Activity 003 – Basic Intelligence Course – K86, 066,715. This year’s allocation has been scaled down compared to the current allocation. Why is there this change when there is an upsurge in crime related to drug trafficking?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, the reduction of K42,698,762 is because other new activities have been introduced under this programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

Vote 16/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16/02 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Lusaka Province – K405,899,638).

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4020, Activity 006 – Community Awareness Sensitisation and Rehabilitation of Drug Addicts – K7,196,684. I would like to know if the amount allocated is enough.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, this is a new activity. As such, the hon. Member of Parliament should appreciate that we have introduced it for the first time.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

Vote 16/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 10 – (Police and Prisons Service Commission – Office of the President –K3,315,564,443).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the Floor.

Madam Chairperson, oh! Sorry.

The Chairperson: Do not worry. Sometimes, I look like a woman.

Laughter

The Vice-President: It is the wig, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Chairperson, the mission statement of the Police and Prisons Service Commission is:

“To provide high quality service by upholding integrity of the service through the application of powers vested in it by His Excellency the President without fear or favour and cultivate a rapport and partnership with the Police and Prisons Services in Zambia.”

Sir, some of the functions of the Police and Prisons Services Commission are as follows:

(i) to carry out functions directed by His Excellency the President;

(ii) to appoint persons to hold or act in offices of the Zambia Police and Prisons Service;

(iii) to admit offices to permanent and pensionable establishment in the Zambia Police and Prisons Service;

(iv) to promote offices to high ranks in the Police and Prisons Service;

(v) to establish the disciplinary control of the persons holding or acting in such offices and remove any persons from exercising the function of their offices in the Police and Prisons Service;

(vi) to review appeals submitted by offices against punishments imposed on them departmentally or by the responsible officers provided for under Police and Prisons Service Commission Regulation No. 42;

(vii) to decide on the requirement and normalise resignations of officers in the Zambia Police and Prisons Service;

(viii) to consider the granting and distribution of pension benefits accruing to the deceased estates;

(ix) to direct on the compensation of offices who die or get injured in accidents arising out of or in the course of duty; and

(x) to consider transfer of officers arising out of exigencies of the services.

Mr Chairperson, during 2011, the commission received K2,972,944,523 and managed to tour four provinces, namely the Southern, Western, Eastern and Central. During these tours, the commission had the opportunity to visit all police posts and open air prisons in the afore-mentioned provinces.

Sir, the commission did not just process confirmations and appointments, retirements, disciplinary cases, resignations, transfers, promotions, upgrading and reinstatements, but was also concerned about the environment and conditions under which police and prison officers are serving whilst at base, the Police and Prisons Service Commission continue to process cases in respect of the two sister institutions, namely the Zambian Police Force and the Zambia Prisons Service, respectively.

Mr Chairperson, permit me to talk about the constraints and challenges. The inadequate funding has been the major challenge in the running of the commission. Next year’s Budget is K3,364,864,443. One of the commission’s core functions is to tour provinces and districts, but with the meager funds being allocated to the commission, not much will be achieved. In addition, the commission is facing one of its biggest challenges in the area of motor transport as the current fleet of vehicles constantly breaks down during each tour that the commission undertakes.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish, therefore, to make an earnest appeal to the hon. Members of the House to support the Estimates of Expenditure for the Police and Prisons Service Commission for 2012.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

The Chairperson: Any further debate?

His Honour the Vice-President.

Mr Chisala indicated.

The Chairperson: When I ask if there is any further debate, please, do indicate quickly. Otherwise, I assume there is no further debate.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, my debate on the Police and Prisons Service Commission will be brief. First and foremost, I would like to state that when I commented on the need to increase the Police and Prisons Service Commission, last year, things did not work out. Today, I stand as a proud hon. Member of Parliament and I am pleased that there is an increment of about K343 million to K2,972,944,523, which was allocated last year. This is a commendable job.

Mr Chairperson, sometimes, I fail to understand why the Police and Prisons Service Commission has been failing to discharge its duties. One wonders whether this is due to a lack of funds or a lack of transport.

Mr Chairperson, last year, when this commission went on tour to the Northern Province, it only reached Luwingu. The police officers in Chilubi were told to take the files to Luwingu where these people were so that the police officers who were due for promotions and disciplinary cases could be …
 
The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chisala, I think the point you are making is that you are appealing to the new Government to provide adequately for transport. Please, do not refer to last year because you are stepping on a sensitive issue. I am sure you understand what I mean.

Can you continue.

Laughter

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, I am trying to say that what used to happen in the previous regime should not continue. The new Government that has come to drive the affairs of this country should ensure that it provides the Police and Prisons Service Commission with sufficient funds to purchase enough vehicles and boats. For instance, if the commission wants to travel to Chilubi, it will not go there by air, but by boat. It is, therefore, imperative that, in the 2013 Budget, the Police and Prisons Service Commission be allocated with more money to enable it reach even the remotest parts of the country.

Mr Chairperson, furthermore, I wish to state that I am delighted that the current Government, under the leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, has decided to restructure the Zambia Police Force. In my view, this is going to enable more police officers to get promoted to higher ranks. I recall debating this vote, last year, and making a suggestion that it would be prudent for more positions to be created in the Zambia Police Force. I am happy that, today, the long-chased dream has become a reality.

Sir, in this regard, I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to see to it that the Zambia Police officers, who worked tirelessly to ensure that the 20th September, 2011 General Elections were conducted in a conducive environment, are rewarded through promotions. These people had to die a little to safeguard the security of this country. Therefore, there is a need to promote the security officers who served this country to our expectation.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the Vote of the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to make a few observations that are noted amongst the Police and Prison Service Commission. I have no doubt that these men are doing their best to ensure that they discharge their duties in a manner that we all wish for. Suffice to say that it is important for this commission to ensure that, especially in the Zambia Police Force, there is discipline amongst officers. There are many police officers who are indisciplined. I can cite a few even though we are not allowed to mention names.

The Chairperson: Order!

You know that. Do not even mention names.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, this commission is tasked with the duty of ensuring that the police help the citizens. For instance, if the police arrest or detain someone, the relatives of that detainee have the right to ask why their relative has been arrested. In some cases, the police officers are arrogant. Why should they behave like that? The police officers are trained to do their job professionally.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to appreciate the discipline of the people in higher ranks, starting from the Inspector-General (IG) going upwards. There is no discipline amongst the junior officers. Just last week, in Monze, someone was arrested. When one family member went to find out what had happened, a police officer slapped that person. Why should we allow things like that to happen? We want to ensure that the commission sees to it that there is discipline amongst police officers. These people lack discipline at the moment.

Sir, one time, I was driving to the Northern Province and found these officers at a roadblock. They did not know that I was an hon. Member of Parliament. They asked, “Where are you going? Where are you from? Park there.” They were so rude to me. These people must change their mindset. We want to ensure that the new Government does something. I have no doubt that the new hon. Minister of Home Affairs is a professional.

The Chairperson: Order!

Can you confine yourself to the commission because the hon. Minister of Home Affairs will introduce two other Heads. I think you can, then, address him through the Chair.

Can you continue.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I was just saying that we now have new management to look after this commission. I hope that since we have able people in management, it will ensure that sanity is brought among the police. I have no doubt that if sanity and discipline are brought amongst police officers, Zambians will be happy.

Mr Chairperson, before the previous Government left office, it had started to ensure that there was discipline amongst police officers. I want to believe that, today, there is no hon. Member of Parliament who will say that he has been followed by the police without having done anything wrong. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to tell the people on your right to bring sanity to the commission. We are well aware that the commission is underfunded, but we will support its Vote because it has a lot to do.

Only last year, the commission visited a police station in Gwembe and I was very happy. I attended its meeting and it was a very good one. We want, however, to ensure that such meetings educate police officers. Sometimes, police officers think that their job is just to make arrests. However, that is not the case. I recall that when resources were available, policemen and women would go and sensitise people in rural areas about wrong and right practices. 

Sometimes, when a motorist is driving without wearing a seatbelt, they will advise him/her to put it on. Sometimes, however, these things are not done.

Mr Chairperson, with these very few words, I support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, all has been heard and noted. We will consider this Head before we get to next year’s Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 10/01 – (Police and Prisons Service Commission – Headquarters – K3,315,564,443).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4007, Activity 006 – Dismantling of Arrears – K100,000,000 and Activity 002 – Personnel Related Arrears – K 108,495,000.  What is Activity 006 – Dismantling of Arrears – K100,000,000 about?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4007, Activity 006 – Dismantling of Arrears – K100,000,000 is required to pay the outstanding personnel costs. The increase is due to increased arrears.  Activity 002 – Personnel Related Arrears – K108,495,000 is required to pay for outstanding bills. The increase in allocation is due to the accrued outstanding bills.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 10/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – K742, 575,182,616) and VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – K269,352, 185,979).

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver a combined policy debate for Head 11 ─ Zambia Police and Head 15 ─ Ministry of Home Affairs. 
  
Mr Chairperson, the mandate of the ministry is to effectively and efficiently provide and maintain an accountable and transparent internal security system in order to create an environment in which peace, stability and justice prevail for sustainable socio-economic development for the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to seize this opportunity to mention that my predecessor, you, Sir, …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Sakeni: … did your best …

The Chairperson: Order!

 Hon. Minister, you do not start bringing the Chair into your discussion, although I do take note of that.

The hon. Member may continue.

Laughter

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, my predecessor did his best to ensure that the mandate of the ministry was well executed despite the various challenges that the ministry faced.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that several infrastructure projects were initiated during the previous administration which included construction of houses, police posts, immigration border controls and prison facilities.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will ensure, through the 2012-2014 Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF), that these projects whose works have taken long are completed expeditiously so that Zambians start deriving the benefits thereof.

Mr Chairperson, the projects that are earmarked for completion, in 2012, include Mwembeshi Maximum Prison Phase 1, Kalabo District Prison, Luwingu District Prison as well as eight border posts, namely Imusho, Kamapanda, Kambimba, Kanyala, Sindamisale, Vubwi, Kilwa and Namafulo.

Mr Chairperson, once these projects are completed, the ministry is confident that congestion in prisons will be reduced and the capacity of our borders to handle immigrants will be enhanced. To this end, the ministry will ensure that an effective monitoring mechanism is put in place to ensure that the projects are executed within reasonable time.

Mr Chairperson, despite the completion of 500 houses for police officers, early this year, the shortage of accommodation is still a huge challenge for the Zambia Police Force. It should also be recognised that this challenge is not only for the police, but for all departments, especially the Prisons and Immigration departments.

Mr Chairperson, the accommodation gap for security officers in our ministry is above 6,000 housing units and this is a very big challenge. In view of the above, my ministry will continue to construct houses for all security officers whilst exploring other viable financing mechanisms to ensure that there is an urgent solution to this long-standing challenge of inadequate accommodation.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry, in 2012, will focus on establishing an effective and efficient information system in order to effectively disseminate information on its functions and operations to stakeholders and the general public. In addition, it will step up efforts to establish and maintain a comprehensive and up-to-date national database on internal security to enhance co-ordination and performance of the specialised agencies.

Sir, the computerisation process in the ministry will result in, among other things, the provision of digitalised national registration cards through a pilot project in 2012, before embarking on a full nationwide rollout thereafter. The provision of digitalised national registration cards will contribute to reducing forgery incidences of the national identity cards and make the system multi-faceted and compatible with international systems.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to inform hon. Members of this august House that the 2012 Budget also provides the resources for the modernisation of several crime detection, investigation and prevention mechanisms, which will go a long way in improving the efficiency and effectiveness of our security agencies.

Sir, our ministry realises that the effective implementation of policies requires a viable and well motivated workforce. The ministry will, in 2012, also continue to be restructured in order to provide an appropriate organisational structure, salary grading structure and optimum staffing levels. This will effectively support the attainment of the ministry’s objectives and goals.

Furthermore, Mr Chairperson, the recruitment of more security officers will increase staffing levels in order to enable the ministry cope with the growth in the national population so that our services are closer to the points of delivery.

Sir, before I conclude, the hon. Members of this august House may wish to note that the budgetary provision for the Ministry of Home Affairs increased by K111.6 billion for Head 11 and K60.3 billion for Head 15.

Sir, in view of the various policy interventions mentioned above, I wish to urge all the hon. Members of this august House to support the estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Home Affairs.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Before, I allow Mr Mbulakulima to debate, let me take this opportunity to guide the House and remind the hon. Members that you have already debated these matters, at the policy level, quite at great length. Therefore, the fifteen minutes time allocation is given as the maximum. You do not have to use up the entire fifteen minutes. I know that all of you are capable of debating in less than fifteen minutes and this will allow others to participate.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Thank you, Mr Chairperson for your early warning.

Sir, let me take advantage of this opportunity and thank you most sincerely for giving me the chance to make some remarks on this important ministry. I will only make observations and, probably, offer some advice. As you know, advice can be accepted or rejected.

Mr Chairperson, I realise the Zambia Police is not only an important institution, but also a very sensitive one. That is why, in the recent past, we have seen some sort of frustration in the police. Probably, one of the avenues that you have used, as a new Government, …

The Chairperson: Order!

I overheard those hon. Members going out saying “Tuleya.” I wish to advise you that that the Heads we are considering will not pass just like that. Sometimes, it is when you go out of the Chamber that you get a surprise. So, it is important that all of us are in the House.

You may continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, you may not agree with me that we saw some frustrations in the Police Force, but one avenue that the new Government has used to bring back the motivation is by creating provincial …

Mr M. H. Malama: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member, who is debating in order not to help the Chair to translate the word ‘tuleya’ in this House?

The Chairperson: I know that the word ‘tuleya’ means ‘let us go.’

Laughter

The Chairperson: Therefore, he is in order. That is the reason I earlier advised that some hon. Members may assume that we are over with the Head we are considering and decide to leave, but may get a surprise. Therefore, it is important that all of us are here.

You may continue, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima: That was the hon. Member for Mfuwe.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that one of the avenues used was the promotion of some police officers as provincial commissioners. This is a very good move because some of the frustrations could have been lack of promotion. However, my advice is that we need to handle this issue very carefully. You may not agree with me, but one criterion that is used across the globe to promote people to this level is the span of control. For example, in Africa, Nigeria has over 400,000 police officers, South Africa and Zimbabwe have more than 60,000 police officers each but, here, in Zambia, I would say that we moved a little too fast. Somehow, it is alright as long as we can manage this transition.

Sir, as someone with experience, I think you will agree with me that the position of Provincial Commissioner is equivalent to a major-general in the army. So, my plea is that we take care of these promotions in terms of conditions of service. It should not be mere window dressing. We must give them what they deserve in terms of executive houses, transport, allowances and everything. If we do not handle this properly, it could be another source of frustration in the Force.

As Hon. Ntundu has also said, we believe that we also need to look at the lower levels of the Force because this is where frustrations normally begin. Already, the organisational structure of the police is top-heavy but, now, you have made it even bigger at the top. What remains for the junior officers? There is a need for us to go down and upgrade the lower levels.

Looking at the budget, Mr Chairperson, I say that we need to be very careful. I have looked at the salary increments, which are very minimal and not commensurate with the promotions that you have made. I have looked at the procurement of vehicles, logistical support to the defence and security wings and provisions for training abroad and all these have remained almost static. So, I say that, if we do not watch out, it could be a source of frustration. However, I have also observed good things, such as the purchase of equipment, patrol vehicles, modernisation in terms of information technology (IT), but these are too general in their impact. We really need to handle the situation that you have created very well.

With these few remarks, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

The Chairperson: I commend you.

Mr Taima (Solwezi East): Mr Chairperson, I promise to be very brief in line with your guidance. From the outset, I want to say that I support the Vote for the Ministry of Home Affairs as well as the Zambia Police Force. The importance of the police cannot be over-emphasised. However, first of all, I just want to point out, quickly, that the PF Government is about to miss an opportunity to empower the many youths of Zambia who are languishing out there without any jobs.

Mr Chairperson, I say this because it has been said, for a couple of years now, that the full strength of the Zambia Police Force or the ideal number of police officers that this country needs is somewhere around 27,000. I think that even this number is somewhat being overtaken by the national population with the passage of time, and yet we still stand somewhere around 15,000 police officers.

In an attempt to move the number of police officers towards the ideal requirement, the MMD Government strove to recruit about 1,500 police officers, every year, with the last intake graduating, I think, this week. I think the last batch will be graduating tomorrow. Now, what do we see? Instead of seizing this opportunity, when we have so many unemployed youths on the streets ─ and there was much talk by the then opposition party, the PF, on the high levels of unemployment among the youth ─ now that the PF is in the Government, it should have come with a bang to employ as many youths as possible from the outset …

Mr M. H. Malama: What bang, naimwe?

Mr Taima: … in the Zambia Police Force. However, what I see is to the contrary. The first provision for the recruitment of police officers is for only a paltry 1,000. This is even far less than what we left as the MMD going by the pronouncements already made and the monies that have been allocated in the Budget. My plea, therefore, is that something be done. It is not too late. Some monies can be moved so that the Government can recruit, at least, if not 1,500, even a few more police officers next year.

Mr Chairperson, other areas have already been commented on, except, I wish to say that it is good to hear from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that projects like staff housing started by the MMD Government will be continued. It is a known fact that there is a very big shortfall of staff accommodation as already clearly outlined. I want to highlight some areas, like Mufumbwe, where we still have police officers living in houses made out of tin. All of them, including those in Kasempa ─ and I did not want to be selfish ─ and Solwezi, have a very critical shortage of staff housing. So, it is good to hear that this area is going to be looked at continuously. Now, we want to see many more clear and deliberate steps being taken towards addressing this issue and pushing it so much that it reaches a level at which we have each police officer having a house within the next five years of the PF Government, if possible.

Mr Chairperson, just to move on, another issue has been quite thorny for the people of the North-Western Province. When I had the privilege of serving as hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, I, at least, travelled to a few provinces though I did not go everywhere. I saw that, on average, every province has what one might wish to call a decent divisional police headquarters, except the North-Western Province. Until now, the province does not have what one might call a provincial divisional headquarters. In fact, it is not even worth talking about. It is a very small office which, I am told, used to belong to the council and was initially given to the district. The same office houses the provincial officer in charge as well. So, this was and still remains one of our biggest cries as a province, and yet I do not see any clear provision, apart from the K9 billion that has been generally put as money for construction of police stations and posts in the Budget. However, thank God, through another avenue, maybe, because of the serious push by the people of North-Western Province, I see K1 billion provided under the provincial administration, maybe, just to get this project started. My plea to the hon. Minister is that we see how the Zambia Police Headquarters can come in and help implement this project as quickly as possible. We need a decent and reasonable regional headquarters for the North-Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, but not least, the issue of police posts has been every hon. Member of Parliament’s cry for many years in this House. It has been proven, very clearly, that the Central Government has not been the best avenue to use to construct police posts in every constituency. Rather, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has played a very key role in helping us build additional police posts. While we have a provision like K9 billion for police stations and posts, the reality is that the amount can only suffice for one ultra-modern police post. We, actually, need even much more. However, I will not belabour this point because, at least, a commitment has been made by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that something will be done to the CDF so that we can accelerate the construction of police posts in our constituencies. Issues of people killing one other in broad daylight in our constituencies are an everyday happening. As I said, I will not belabour this point, except to say that we expect a very meaningful revision of the CDF so that we can be helped to add to the numbers of our police posts.

Mr Chairperson, with these very few wards, I want to say I support the Vote.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I will be brief and just want to comment on the Government’s efforts to try and build on what the previous Government did to improve the housing of police officers. In our country, the houses for police officers have, indeed, been very pathetic for a long time. If you go anywhere in Zambia and find strange looking and miserable houses, you just have to guess that they must be police quarters. They were inherited from the colonial masters and have been like that for some time.

Mr Chairperson, I, however, note that the PF, during its campaigns as an Opposition party, promised that it was going to improve, among other things, the conditions of living and service for police officers, including salaries. Speaking about wages and salaries for the police officers, improving them would go a long way in alleviating corruption because it is not a secret that one of the most corrupt organisations in this country is the Zambia Police Force. You only need to drive on the roads to find this out. We have heard that, whenever some mealie-meal or other commodities run out in the homes of some police officers, they just promise their wives or families that they will go back with some K300,000 in the afternoon and go out. They then just put up a fake roadblock and stop any vehicle, especially trucks and mini-busses. Even some of us with old looking vehicles are targeted because they think that we are taxi drivers. They would stop motorists and extort something from them. So, let us improve their salaries and try to stern this tide of corrupt practices.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to mention that the Zambia Police Force needs to be fully equipped, especially in terms of items like motor vehicles, for the rural areas. In my constituency and in the Western Province, generally, for example, there is a lot of cattle-rustling. Some of us have been victims and the police stations are very far away, with the nearest being, maybe, 150 km or so away in Luena. You have to go round and pass through pools of water and sand in order to get to the only police post, which is at Limulunga. When you report that your cattle has been stolen, the first thing the police people ask you is if you know who could be responsible or tell you to go and bring the culprits to the police station. I mean, how can I drag a cattle rustler to the police station? How do I do it physically? It is impossible.

Laughter

Ms Imenda: Sometimes, they ask you to provide a vehicle and fuel. I do not think they even have a vehicle, but even if they did, they would still ask you to provide fuel. These people need to be equipped. I urge that, as we look at this Budget and execute it, let us bear that in mind.

Let me now talk about police posts themselves. In Luena, there is only one police post at Limulunga as I mentioned earlier. The furthest place is, maybe, 150 km away from the police post. We should work towards ensuring that rural areas are also catered for in terms of police posts.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I will talk about issues to do with recruitment which my colleagues have already talked about. The method of recruitment to the Zambia Police Force is not transparent. We have seen our children going to line up without any success whenever there is a call for recruitment. The queue never moves because those people who are known to the authorities enter through the back door while our children need to join the queue. Can we seriously look at such issues more especially that most of us now are allergic to corruption, nepotism and tribalism.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, her!

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, I am so delighted to stand and contribute to this debate. I will firstly talk about policy issues. I would like the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to take note of the fact that it is important for us to have uniformity in terms of the attires which our officers put on. I think there are currently so many uniforms for our officers. It would be good for us to have one specific type of uniform.

Mr Chairperson, the Criminal Investigations Department (CID) seems to be totally crippled in terms of transport. It is absolutely necessary that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, I hope he is listening, takes note of that problem. It is very disheartening. I am sure almost all the hon. Members here, who have gone to the police for assistance have been told at one point or the other have about the transport problems.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue is on training. I have noted that there is a budget line for training for specialised officers. It would be absolutely necessary for the House to look at such figures and find ways of improving on them. The allocation for specialised training is small considering the fact that we have very few specialists who are competent in investigating handwritings and finger checking.  We are really not helping ourselves by allocating small budgets to specialised training. 

Mr Chairperson, the other issue which, again, affects all of us is that of fuel for the police. I am looking forward to a time when a person would report a case to the police and be attended to without being asked to provide fuel for investigations to be carried out. I think this is an embarrassment to the nation, which the Minister of Home Affairs should try to look at very seriously. We are going to support his efforts to have the allocation for his ministry increased so that our police can have sufficient fuel which would aid their mobility. Such matters should be taken seriously because they affect all of us here.

Mr Chairperson, very quickly, I also have noted that there are a few prisons which are going to be constructed, such as in the constituency of the hon. Member who is seated near me, in the Northern Province. I hope that the standard of the prisons that we are going to construct will be good such that if there will be a problem involving senior people in society, they will not be taken into a special room and given special treatment. This is currently being done because our prisons are in a very embarrassing state.

I would like to adopt what has been said by the previous speakers about salaries as my own. If we are to stop the perceived corruption in the Zambia Police Force, the best thing we can do is to increase the salaries of the police officers. I am looking forward to see if what was said by the President about improving the conditions of service for those working in the Zambia Air force, Zambia Army and Zambia National Service will also be the case for those working in the Zambia Police Force. What I am trying to say is that it is time that our police officers are given decent salaries so that they can feel ashamed to be given a K50,000 at a roadblock. I ask the hon. Minister of Home to push for this so strongly. I am sure he will receive a very merciful hand from all of us in his efforts to improve the salaries of the men in uniform.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue which, has for a long time been difficult for me to understand is why, in other defence forces, some ranks are maintained even when one retires, but that is not the case in the Zambia Police Force. I do understand that. The police officers offer a service and I feel that at a certain rank, for example, if one reaches the Inspector-General (IG) position, should be maintained even after retirement so that the individual continues to enjoy his/ her due respect.

Mr Chairperson, in concluding, I would like to adopt what has been said about houses as my own debate. Our officers need good houses. We commend the previous Government for the projects it started in that regard. I pray and I hope that the current Government will seriously look into the living conditions of officers, which are so deplorable. You would find it hard to believe that the smartly dressed officers walking on our streets are the ones who stay in the homes, dormitories or cabin they stay in.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I will be brief and will echo what others have said regarding the allocation towards the Ministry of Home Affairs. It would be important for the hon. Minister to attend to the need to face lift some of the buildings which are used by the police. 

Mr Chairperson, I have in mind the Lusaka Central Police Station, which is just opposite the new Levy Junction Mall. That structure is an eyesore more especially that it is now right opposite a very beautiful structure. I urge the hon. Minister to pay attention to that. He should also improve the state of the pavements at the police station. He should also remove those stationary vehicles that are around there and look for some warehouse where immobile vehicles can be kept.

The other thing which he must also pay attention to is the state of the offices at border post areas. The gap is clear in terms of quality when you compare the office furniture used by staff from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, under the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) offices, and the Ministry of Home Affairs staff. The furniture used by the officers from the Ministry of Home Affairs is in a terrible state. The hon. Minister would greatly improve the operations of his ministry if he was to attend to such matters.

Mr Chairperson, there are some police stations that are operating without cells. A good example of such is the one found in Senanga. For the past forty-seven years or so, there has been no police cell there. When the police there arrest someone in the night, they have to keep that person where they are seated. This is a danger to officers.

Mr Chairperson, discipline among police officers is very cardinal. When I visited a police station, during the week, I found police officers sleeping. This clearly shows that there is no serious supervision in the police force.

Mr Chairperson, in my view, it is cardinal that these officers are highly disciplined so that they can maintain high professional standards. Some officers even carry tujili jili in their pockets and drink them on duty. Therefore, there is a need for the IG to start inspecting police posts during the night

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: On a point of order, Sir!

The Chairperson: On who?

Mr Mucheleka: My neighbour (Mr R. Phiri) here.

The Chairperson: Unfortunately, you cannot raise it on your neighbour who finished speaking a long time ago. You will not be given the opportunity to do so.

May the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, wind up debate.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!{mospagebreak}

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank Hon. Mbulakulima, Hon. Taima, Hon. Mufalali, Hon. Phiri and my sister Hon. Imenda for their contributions. I have taken note of all their sentiments.

Mr Chairperson, on the recruitment exercise, we have also found out that the 1,000 figure, which was being referred to in many debates, is too low. We plan to increase the figure to 1,500, funds permitting. That is the figure we are targeting although, in the Budget, we have only budgeted for the recruitment of 1,000 officers. I hope we will be able to reach the figure of 1,500.

Mr Chairperson, the other hon. Member talked about the discipline levels in the Zambia Police Force. If you have any genuine complaints, kindly report them to the Police Public Complaints Authority (PPCA). This may include complaints against the detention of a person on flimsy or personal grounds. One can also report cases of indiscipline directly to the PPCA instead of waiting to get to the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

As regards the Immigration Department, as I said in my policy debate, we will continue improving on the status of the border control posts. Police stations are also an eye sore in certain areas. Therefore, we will continue to do the best to improve the buildings which house our police stations.

In conclusion, Mr Chairperson, the Government wishes to urge everybody from the security agencies to operate in a more disciplined way than they were doing under the previous regime. We do not want corruption in the Zambia Police Force and the Immigration Department. Those with evidence should not hesitate to report to the Anti-Corruption Commission about the activities of those officers who are found wanting. Such officers can also be reported to their superior officers so that immediate action is taken against them.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank all the hon. Members who supported this Vote.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/06 – (Zambia Police –Ministry of Home Affairs – TAZARA Police – K13, 054, 915, 322).

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 114, Programme 1, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K10, 503,103,464. Why is there a reduction in next year’s allocation?

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mwaliteta): Mr Chairperson, the reduction is as a result of the removal of housing allowance for the officers who will be accommodated in 2012.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/07 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Paramilitary – K36, 743, 047, 457).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – K225, 000,000. This is a huge increase from the K56 million which is in this year’s Budget. What are the reasons for that increase?

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, this increase is for the purpose of allowing police officers to have access to loans and advances in 2012. 

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 054 – Inspection of Platoons – K50, 000,000. We are concerned that there is a reduction in that allocation at a time when we expect more inspections so as to enhance the quality of services offered. What is the reason for this reduction?

Hon. Government Member: There is no reduction.

The Chairperson: Yes, there is a reduction. The last allocation was K73, 262, 564 and now, it is at K50, 000,000. That is the reduction he is referring to.

Mr Mwaliteta:  Mr Chairperson, the provision of K70, 000, 000 is needed to cover the cost of running companies, platoons and sections in 2012.

The Chairperson: You are not answering the question.

Mr Mwaliteta: Where?

The Chairperson: Order! The question is why is there a reduction from K73, 262, 564, in 2011, to K50 million in 2012. I am sorry I have to say this, but my colleagues at the back, there must be people somewhere who are supposed to quickly move in and advise.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, the decrease has been due to the split of some districts from Tanzania- Zambia Railways Authority (TAZARA)  into Muchinga Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

Vote 11/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/10 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Copperbelt Province – K86,239,311,088).

Mr Kunda, SC. (Muchinga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K77,917,285,166. There is an increase in the level of emoluments or salaries from K71,947,360,526. Why do we have this increase?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, the increase …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! You are making noise at the back. The hon. Minister cannot concentrate. May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Sakeni: … is required to pay salaries to personnel in Division II. It is due to the 10 per cent salary increment that the Government awarded to all civil servants in 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Any further debate?

Mr Hamudulu rose.

The Deputy Chairperson: I wanted to call upon Hon. Hamudulu, but he is seated in the wrong place. That is not your seat.

Question put and agreed to.

Vote 11/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Central Province – K32,063,287,984).

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III ─ K19, 014,240. There is an increment from K18, 281, 321. May I know why this is so.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, I guess she is saying salaries in Division III.

The Chairperson: Yes, an increase from about K18 million to K19 million.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, the increase is due to the 10 per cent salary increment that the Government awarded to civil servants in 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 028 – Station Inspections, I note a decrease from K109 million to K50 million. With increased activities, how come there is this reduction?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

When a question is asked, I appeal to hon. Ministers to pay attention because it appears that you are remaining behind.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, our record here says that there is an increment. It says that, previously, it was K59 million and now it has gone up.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: No!

I think you are on a different page.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, the reason is the movement of the activity to another Head.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Although the hon. Minister said that the reason is that the activity moved to another Head, hon. Members would want to know which one it is.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, in crime detection, there is an increase from K70 million to K100 million.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K126 million. I would like to know, in the first instance, what this entails. Secondly, I would like to know why there is a big increment from K74, 536,709 to K126 million.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, when we are talking about Public Order Maintenance, this is the area where we intend not to use lethal weapons. We need to start using other methods to fight public disorder.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: What about the other question on the increase from K74 million to K126 million?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, the increase is minimal. We are looking to source more funding because we still need rubber bullets, water cannons and other non-lethal weapons.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K119,014,240. The hon. Minister said that the increase from K18 million to K119 million is due to the 10 per cent salary increase. However, when mathematically computed, 10 per cent of K18 million does not give K101 million.

The Chairperson: What percentage does it give?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, this is what we would like to hear from the hon. Minister.

Hon. MMD Members: The hon. Minister must tell us.

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister cited the 10 per cent as the reason for the increase, but the hon. Member is saying it is not correct. This is why I am asking him what percentage it is according to his calculation.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Under the circumstances, we will proceed.  

Vote 11/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/12 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Northern Province – K17,645,494,780).

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K13,626,074,165. There is a marginal increase from K13.382,394,269 billion to K13. 626,074,165 billion. Why is there a marginal increase? Is it also reflective of the 10 per cent increment? What is the explanation for this marginal increase?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, these salary increments were for 2011. We take it that others were paid and others were not.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I would like to seek clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K13,626,074,165. Based on these figures, the Northern Province has been given a raw deal. It has only got an increase of 2 per cent. Can the hon. Minister explain why the province has been denied the 10 per cent increase?

The Chairperson: That was the question asked by Hon. Kunda, SC., but you have put it in another context.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, I think that Hon. Simbao listened to the answer I gave the former Vice-President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sakeni: Some people were paid and others were not. There is no way we can discriminate payment of salaries to officers in the Public Service.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/13 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Western Province – K20,754,630,004).

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, I know that similar questions to the one I am about to ask have been persistently asked before by other hon. Members. However, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K185,112,493. I see that the allocation to that particular activity has been increased in almost every place where it appears. I know that we have a new Government now …

The Chairperson: What is your question?

Mr Hamudulu: I want to give a background to my question.

The Chairperson: No, ask your question.

Mr Hamudulu: Why the increase when the new Government is favoured by everybody who voted for it?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member should bear in mind that the increment is due to the Government’s desire to increase the scope of its operations, in terms of public order maintenance, in 2012.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/17 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Southern Province – K28, 434,721,481).

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I notice that there are no budgetary provisions for Labour Day and Women’s Day celebrations in the allocations to most of the regional headquarters. Are our people not entitled to participate in celebrating these activities?

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)
_________

The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 6th December, 2011.