Thursday, 1^stAugust, 2024

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

PRESENCE OF PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM NDABENI ACADEMY, LUSAKA

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from Ndabeni Academy School in Avondale, Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

Thank you.

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MOTION

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDER NO. 26(1) AND 55

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that Order No. 26(1) and 55 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, be suspended to enable His Excellency Evariste Ndayishimiye, President of the Republic of Burundi, to deliver a Special Address to the House on Friday, 2^nd August, 2024.

Madam Speaker, as the House is aware, His Excellency Evariste Ndayishimiye, President of the Republic of Burundi, will deliver a Special Address to the House on Friday, 2^nd August, 2024. Standing Order No. 26(1) provides for the suspension of business for twenty minutes at 1040 hours on Friday while Standing Order No. 55 outlines the Order of Business of the House for each sitting day. It is necessary to suspend these Standing Orders to accommodate the Special Address by His Excellency Evariste Ndayishimiye, President of the Republic of Burundi, to the House and to enable the House to debate the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency Evariste Ndayishimiye’s Special Address.

Madam Speaker, this is a procedural and non-controversial Motion. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to support it.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker:  I have seen several indications. Hon. Members, this is a procedural Motion. We need to have more time to debate other matters that are on the Order Paper. So, I will just recognise one hon. Member from the left and then we will wind up debate. The hon. Member for – I wanted to call on a female hon. Member, but she has withdrawn.

The hon. Member for Chitambo may debate.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, it is always good to have visitors to our midst. Some book says, “A house that does not receive visitors is a cursed house.” Our country is privileged to receive a rare visitor from Burundi.

Madam Speaker, just like Her Honour the Vice-President has put it, this Motion is non-controversial. However, I have a few things to say. The Standing Orders we are suspending must benefit hon. Members in this House. For example, we have suspended one Standing Order to allow hon. Members to debate, meaning that your hon. Members must be given ample time to do what they followed here. As far as I know, we came to this House to represent our people through talking. Talking must be our hobby and we must be permitted to do so at all times.

Madam Speaker, what do we have to learn from Burundi? We have a lot to learn from Burundi in terms of the agriculture sector. I know that Zambia is also trying to diversify to agriculture to compensate for other sectors which are not doing very fine now, like the mining sector. Burundi is looking at growing its agricultural sector by almost about 6 per cent. If Burundi achieved that, it would be a very huge achievement. I encourage our hon. Minister here to learn from that country.

Madam Speaker, another thing that we must learn from Burundi is the co-existence among the people. That is inspiring. We need to learn from our colleagues there about what has kept them together and how they have managed to move together as a country.

Madam Speaker, I know that time is of the essence. So, I end here.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member who has debated on this Motion. Indeed, I acknowledge that many other hon. Members may have wanted to say almost the same things. I thank the hon. Members for the support. It is, indeed, important to acknowledge that when visitors come, we show our very best and reality.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

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URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

Madam Speaker: The next item is Urgent Matters Without Notice. However, in view of the fact that we are rising tomorrow, even if you raise these matters, it will not make a difference because forty-eight hours will not be within the time before we adjourn.

MR SIMUMBA, HON. MEMBER FOR NAKONDE, ON MR CHIKOTE, HON. MINISTER OF ENERGY, ON THE INCREASE OF FUEL PUMP PRICES EVERY MONTH

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, the Urgent Matter Without Notice I wish to raise is directed at the hon. Minister of Energy. Yesterday, 31^st July, 2024, the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) adjusted the fuel pump prices. I think, the ERB has taken Zambians for granted. We cannot have a Government that just knows how to increase the prices.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Hon. Member: So that they can reduce!

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, when the United Party for National Development (UPND) formed Government, it found the price of fuel at K17 per liter. Today, the price of fuel is K34 per litre. Zambians are being subjected to suffering. The people of Nakonde are businessmen. This Government promised us that it was going to reduce the cost of doing business, but it has continued increasing fuel pump prices. When the UPND hon. Members were in the Opposition, they had a solution for fuel prices. Where have they taken the solution? Were they ready to form Government or not? Ordinary Zambians have continued going to bed without food. I want to know if this Government has any plans to address the increment of fuel prices every month? We as a country are not planning. Every month, the Government increases the fuel prices. What is the problem?

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Your time is up. You were debating.

MR MENYANI ZULU, HON. MEMBER FOR NYIMBA, ON DR MUSOKOTWANE, THE HON. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND NATIONAL PLANNING, ONDELAYED GUIDELINES ON UTILISATION OF MONEY GIVEN TO COUNCILS

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter Without Notice is directed at the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock.

Madam Speaker, many times, we have called councils inefficient and we have said that they have failed to perform. We have entered the third quarter of the year. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning, through the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA), has funded councils in the country. I think, K3 million is in the Budget for councils. This is a brilliant idea from the Executive. The Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock also has a brilliant idea for councils. In fact, all ministries are giving councils a certain amount of money. However, councils cannot use the money. It is in the bank accounts as councils are waiting for guidelines from ministries. Only the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts has given councils guidelines on how to use the money. Why is the Executive sabotaging its own brilliant ideas? When will the Government give councils guidelines on how to use the money? 

Madam Speaker, abattoirs cannot be worked on because the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock has stopped councils from collecting money from abattoirs. This applies not only to Nyimba but across the nation. Why can the Government not give guidelines to councils so that they can start using the money that they have already been given? The money is in their accounts.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nyimba, you may file a question. As I guided earlier, the question will be handled when the House comes back from recess in September.

Interruptions 

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Nakonde was out of order. He exhausted his two minutes; he was debating.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, just for guidance, the Standing Order that we have suspended today is on the break time and the routine of doing business. It has nothing to do with the amount of time given to debate. Of course, when we extend the time, as we debate, we have to debate within the confines of our Standing Orders and avoid being repetitive. If hon. Members repeat themselves, the House will not make progress. We do not have the whole day. We have to manage our time within the time limits and in accordance with our Standing Orders. So, hon. Members, bear that in mind as you debate.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

ON-GOING INVESTIGATION ON THE MURDER OF INDEPENDENT BROADCASTING AUTHORITY DIRECTOR-GENERAL

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to issue a ministerial statement on the investigation into the murder of Mr Guntila Muleya, the Director-General of the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA).

Madam Speaker, the brief facts are that, on 24^th July, 2024, at approximately 1030 hours, Woodlands Police Station received a report through a phone call from a concerned member of the public in Njolwe area. The member of the public reported that around 2000 hours, he observed a vehicle that appeared to be a Pajero with its doors open. Shortly thereafter, he heard gunshots. The following morning on 24^th July, 2024, at approximately 1000 hours while on his way to work, he discovered the body of a deceased male person on the ground.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Police Service promptly visited the scene of the crime located near Palabana National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) Housing Complex along the gravel road. The body of the male person was found handcuffed in a pool of blood with two bullet wounds; one bullet wound was on the back and another one on the head. Also found on the crime scene were two bullet cartridges and an identity card bearing the name D. M. Guntila Muleya, Director-General, IBA.

Madam Speaker, a docket for a case of murder has been opened and investigations are underway. So far, five suspects believed to be connected to the murder have been apprehended. Among those apprehended are two regular police officers. One is a reserve police officer while the other two are members of the public. One of the two members of the public is a staff member at the IBA. All the five individuals are currently in custody and are being interrogated to gather more information. In addition to the arrest, the Zambia Police Service has seized two motor vehicles, three firearms, two pistols and an AK-47 rifle; cash totaling K129,300 and assorted knives and various electronic gadgets, including phones, hard drives and flash disk drives from the suspects. Further, police have recovered one VXL Prado motor vehicle belonging to the victim.

Madam Speaker, the investigation into this matter is progressing well. We would like to assure the public that they will be informed on any other outcomes in due course. However, we are mindful that premature disclosures of certain details may jeopardise the on-going investigations. Forensic teams have been working meticulously to collect and analyse evidence from the crime scene. That includes physical evidence, digital footprints and other relevant material that could aid in solving the case. Investigators have also conducted interviews with potential witnesses who may have seen or heard anything suspicious on the night of the murder. This includes local residents, passers-by and anyone who might have had contact with Mr Muleya on that day. We would like to extend our gratitude to the public for their co-operation and support during this investigation.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Police Service is collaborating with other security agencies and experts to ensure a comprehensive approach to the investigation. This includes utilising advanced investigative techniques and technologies. The investigation is also focused on determining the motive behind this brutal act. While it is too early to speculate, every possible angle is being explored to understand why Mr Muleya was targeted. We understand the public’s concern and the desire for swift justice. The Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security assures the nation that no stone will be left unturned in bringing the perpetrators of this crime to justice. We are committed to ensuring that those responsible for this senseless act are held accountable. We also appeal to members of the public who may have any information related to this case to come forward and assist the police.

Madam Speaker, let me also address the recent claims circulating in the media and among the public alleging that police officers are now involving themselves in criminal activities including murder. These allegations have understandably caused concern and unease among the public, and it is imperative that we provide clarity and reassurance. First and foremost, I want to affirm that the Zambia Police Service is committed to upholding the law, ensuring public safety and maintaining the highest standards of professional conduct. The vast majority of officers serve with integrity, dedication and a strong sense of duty to protect and serve the citizens of our nation. While it is true that there are a few bad elements denting the good image of the Zambia Police Service, the Government is putting measures to ensure that bad elements are rooted out of the system. Some of the measures being undertaken include strengthening the Whistle Blower Policy and establishing Integrity Committees in all police districts. We shall employ every means available to defy the adage “One bad apple spoils the whole bunch.”

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the Zambia Police Service, supported by the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, remains resolute in its commitment to maintaining law and order. I also want to emphasise that any police officer found to be involved in criminal activities will face the full extent of the law. Our priority is to ensure the safety and security of all citizens and to uphold justice My sincere condolences go out to the family of Mr Guntila Muleya during this difficult time.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the information I have is, one of the suspected killers happens to be a police officer, and is believed to be a relative to one of the prominent lawyers in the country.

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Tayengwa: I said a lawyer. What is your problem?

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

If we continue like that, I will skip this and go to the next item.

May the hon. Member for Kabwata continue.

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Speaker, I was saying, one of the suspected killers is a brother to one of the prominent lawyers in the country. Police officers are supposed to provide security to citizens. However, what is happening now is that police officers are becoming a threat to this country. I want to know from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security whether he can consider doing due diligence on most of the police officers employed between 2011 and 2021 to check their criminal background.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, we are not going to look at officers employed during a particular period. We will look at all officers currently serving and ensure that we do not have rogue police officers in the service. Obviously, there are allegations that during a certain period, there were no considerations for merit regarding employment, but that issue will be considered by the police when they analyse all the evidence available and after they assess all the employees under the Zambia Police Service.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as you ask questions, bear in mind that the matter is still under investigation. As the hon. Minister said, if we say too many things, we might jeopardise the investigations.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, my heart and thoughts go to the family of the late Mr Muleya.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said that one of the items that were recovered from the suspects who have been arrested is an AK-47 assault rifle. Has it been established at this stage whether the AK-47 was issued by the police and probably went missing, or was this fireman in the possession of the alleged criminals?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, as I indicated, we recovered a number of firearms including an AK-47 from the suspects. Preliminary investigations indicate that illegal firearms were used by these criminals to perpetrate their criminal activities. The investigations are still going on.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I am getting a bit uncomfortable proceeding with this matter. Is it okay if we just left it? The investigations are ongoing. Actually, the ministerial statement was issued following several requests. The hon. Member for Mpika and the hon. Member for Chama South raised the matter. The hon. Minister had already indicated that he was going to come before this House to issue a ministerial statement. We have heard what is going on and that investigations are ongoing.

So, let us just make progress and go to the next item.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Madam Speaker: Okay. Depending on what questions you will ask, we will decide.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, it is quite sad, very sad, that today in Zambia people’s lives can be taken just like that. I want to say sincere condolences to the family of Guntila Muleya. May his soul rest in eternal peace.

Madam Speaker, reports have been made about abductions of different people. Some have been trivialised. Now, we have this death, which makes us seem as though we do not take some of the reports very seriously. Our own J. E. Banda was also abducted, but the hon. Minister has never come to this House to give a report of what happened. Is the hon. Minister in a position to handle such cases squarely? This is what is leading to some of the happenings in our country.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, as I respond to this question, give me a bit of time to respond to the issue that has been raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lundazi. First and foremost, these cases are totally different. In this particular case of the death that occurred, we had conclusive evidence that led us to pick certain individuals. We have nothing to hide in this matter or in any other case.

Madam Speaker, for the other case that has been raised, which has political overtones, I want to state without any fear of any contradiction, that we have investigated that matter, and the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central has been co-operating with the police. He gave a statement wherein he indicated that he does not know who abducted him.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Hold on.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

 Let us listen to the answer.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, for those who do not know police procedures, a person who is aggrieved goes to the police and makes a recorded statement. It is out of that statement that the police investigate the issue. As they investigate, other issues arise. In the statement that was made to the police and signed in the presence of his lawyers, no one was mentioned in it. I can challenge you on that, unless you are malicious. We have the Access to Information Act now, which allows you to go to the police to check what was said at a police station. There is nothing. The only thing my brother has done is go to court and make allegations against certain individuals, but they were not in the statement that was made to the police. The matter is between him and those he has named in his civil process. That is where the difference is. We have not concluded the investigations; they are ongoing.

Madam Speaker, I do not want to delve into certain matters. I know, even in this House, there are individuals who have been doing things that are inimical, arising from this case. I do not want to start naming people here. We should realise that there are security institutions in this country. Do not think that we do not know what you are doing. We have evidence of what you are doing; we know what you are doing. We know what evidence you are fabricating to incriminate certain individuals. Please, be careful.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, in this Parliament, we are told to be factual. The hon. Minister has made a serious accusation that some hon. Members of Parliament here are committing heinous crimes, but he has not provided evidence.

Madam Speaker, is he in order to say that he knows what some of us hon. Members of Parliament here are doing, without mentioning names? Is he in order to insinuate that we are criminals?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

I raise this point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 71.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister said that he knows that some hon. Members are involved, but the investigation is ongoing. I am sure, at the appropriate time, those people will be brought to book. They will be answerable. So, we should be comfortable if we are not involved. Please, let us not politicise this issue, especially that a life has been lost. That is why I was going to move to the next item, but hon. Members, you insisted that you wanted to ask questions.

Hon. Member for Nkana, you have been anxiously waiting for this session.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, this is the second time that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security has come to the House to present a statement with regard to abductions. The first time he came, he gave a statement when the young lady, Pamela Chisupa, was abducted. When he came to the House to make that statement, the police were investigating the abduction of Pamela Chisupa. Today, the hon. Minister has come to give a statement about an ongoing investigation of the slain Director-General, Mr Muleya. It is very clear that there is a syndicate committing abductions. The only time there can be closure on such matters is when the hon. Minister issues a statement because it gives us an opportunity to ask him questions. Many times, people like me have come to this House and asked for a statement with regard to the issue of Hon. J. E. Banda. The response was that the matter was under investigation. Now that the hon. Minister has issued a statement on a matter under investigation, can he tell this House that he will come to issue a statement on the abduction of Hon. J. E. Banda?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, this House has rules and regulations. A Ministerial Statement can only be issued if I am directed to do so by you.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: I cannot come on my own and say –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us listen to the answers. Please, restrain yourselves. I do not know how strongly you feel or how angered you feel. Let us wait for the answers. The hon. Minister is on the Floor providing answers to your questions. Let us allow him to answer.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I am indicating the processes of this House. If I am directed to issue a statement, or if there is question and you direct me to issue a ministerial statement, I will issue it. Those are the processes. I cannot come on my own and stand here to issue a ministerial statement. That is not the rule. It is not like being in a constituency, where you can go to a market and start issuing instructions to marketeers. That is not the way we do things here.

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mr Malambo (Magoye): Madam Speaker, Guntila Muleya, born in Sinafala area of Gwembe District in the Southern Province, was a very well-disciplined gentleman. He was intelligent, hardworking and very humble. He wanted to contribute to the well-being of his children and the country at large. That is the kind of gentleman we lost in the country.

Madam Speaker, sometime last year, the Inspector General of Police indicated that there were some junkies in the police service. Then, there was an uproar from our hon. Colleagues on your left. Has the Inspector General of Police been vindicated in this matter?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, as I indicated, the majority of police officers in this country, men and women, are upright and professional in their conduct. They are also hardworking. However, we have rogue police officers like the two police officers we are talking about. They are worse than junkies.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Please, let us not interject.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Without delving into what they have done, these police officers have tarnished the image of the institution. These individuals, after slaughtering Guntila Muleya in cold blood, the following day, they were dancing in a disco at East Park Mall with girls. They had a lot of money. Members of the public are now asking if this is the first time that these individuals have killed.

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: The answer is for all of you to speculate. They are the ones who have given the Zambia Police Service a bad name.

Mr Mapani: Kampyongo!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: As I indicated, we will do everything possible, with your support, to root out the rogue policemen. There are many. A number of these policemen are working in your constituencies. I tend to think that you are aware of some of the reports that are coming from the public. I would like hon. Members to together with the public to identify the policemen who are not policemen. A policeman is supposed to provide security to residents, but these are not policemen; they are criminals. We cannot allow policemen who are supposed to guard and provide security to our residents to do what they did. The killing of Guntila Muleya is unusual in this country. As a policeman, you handcuff somebody, take him or her into the bush and shoot them in cold blood and make cover-ups. That is very unusual. We used to hear of such criminal activities in other countries, not here. It is our responsibility to ensure that this is curbed. Let us not bring in partisan issues. Let us work together for the sake of the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. There is an indication to speak from an hon. Member who is attending virtually. Hon. Member for Chama North, you may proceed.

Mr Mtayachalo: (Inaudible).

Madam Speaker: Unmute your audio, hon. Member. We cannot hear you, hon. Member. Please, unmute your audio.

Mr Mtayachalo:(Inaudible).

Madam Speaker: As he is trying to sort himself out, we can move to the next person.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his statement. I commiserate with the family of the late Guntila Muleya.

Madam Speaker, of late, criminal acts that are usually fatal have become rampant. I am talking about abductions. Just yesterday, a family found out that their son, a student at Mulungushi University, was abducted and found dead the following day. Today, one student from Eden University has gone missing. That is in addition to several missing persons and abductions that have been reported in the recent past. This is happening at a time when our country has spent so much money on upgrading security infrastructure like the safe city security infrastructure. We have cameras in areas such as Lusaka, Kabwe and the Copperbelt Province.

Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, before you ask the question, you have made allegations that there have been several abductions. Do you have evidence? If so, why do you not report that to the police? We think we have information and then we hold it. Hon. Member, if you have evidence, please, report to the police. Help all of us. We want to get rid of abductions. If you have evidence, report to the police.

You may proceed.

Mr Munsanje: Report your criminal friends.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I need your protection pantu alantwala mumatololo uyu.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Uyu ulelandalilyandelanda. Alantwala mumatololo, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mbabala, please, face this side (pointed to the right) and do not interrupt. Otherwise, you will go and listen from outside.

May the hon. Member for Mpika continue.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, in the face of what is happening, like the hon. Minister has rightly indicated, the killing of the Director-General Guntila Muleya is unprecedented. Is the ministry considering attaching security to directors and others, including hon. Members of Parliament for their safety?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, we are not going to consider that. It is not workable. We cannot provide individual security to every senior member of the public. We cannot do that. All we have to do is provide security for all members of the public, unless there is a specific and known risk to an individual and a request is made.

Madam Speaker, may I also respond to the other issue that was raised, although you have indicated that if someone has evidence, he or she must provide it. It is not appropriate for citizens to make alarming statements. I am aware of what the hon. Member has said. He has stated that a number of abductions have taken place. I want to state that some of the so-called abductions are fake. We have evidence of a university student in Chongwe, who was reported to have been abducted when in actual fact, it was a self-induced abduction with a view to solicit money from his parents. We have evidence of Kabulonga Girls School pupils who were said to have been abducted. We investigated and found that there were no abductions. We are aware of certain situations where girls go out with their boyfriends and stay away. Then their friends allege that they were abducted. Such situations are happening. It is unfortunate. Obviously, there may be cases of genuine abductions that have taken place. We have investigated and cases have been resolved. So, we should not be instigating fear in people's minds.

Madam Speaker, with your permission, using this platform, let me say that yesterday a very senior member of Ukwa – is it called Ukwa?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: A president of a political party and a member of –

Hon. Government Members: Ukwa bag!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: What? Ukwa bag!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: I do not know the name.

Anyway, that president was on radio yesterday. He issued a statement that the heinous acts by policemen are a result of low salaries and wages, and that as long as we do not pay police officers well, they will continue committing these acts.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC:  That was a president of a political party.

Madam Speaker, he is a member of Ukwa and is aspiring to be a President of the Republic of Zambia. He made such a careless statement and encouraged my policemen and women to commit serious crimes. No wonder –

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: I do not know the name. No wonder, whenever there are elections, this individual gets zeros in every polling station.

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: The people of Zambia know that he is not capable of being a leader.

Madam Speaker, how can he encourage armed men and women in uniform to commit crime because their salaries are low? It is irresponsibility of the highest order and it should not be allowed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: You can stop the clock. There was an indication of a point of order from the hon. Member for Nkana. Hon. Member for Nkana, you wanted to raise a point of order. What was the point of order?

Mr B. Mpundu: I will pass. Hon. Kampyongo will handle it.

Madam Speaker: No, no, no, no. There was an indication for a point of order from the hon. Member for Nkana. This is not like a relay where you pass on a baton. That baton cannot be passed on to another hon. Member. 

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, let me raise my point of order.

Madam Speaker: Yes.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, for the sake of the record of this Parliament, Standing Order No. 134 permits a Minister to request the Speaker to allow him or her to come and give a statement in the House. Standing Order No. 71 says that the submissions we make should be factual. In fact, I am corrected that it is Standing Order No. 137.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security has indicated to this House that the statement he has issued today came about because he was directed to do so. We know that you direct hon. Ministers to issue statements arising from a point of order or an Urgent Matter without Notice. The House does not remember when you directed the hon. Minister to come and issue this particular statement.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to mislead this House that his statement today is as a result of him having been directed by you, when he has issued the statement of his own volition? He has failed to make similar statements on the matter concerning Hon. J. E. Banda of his own volition. Is he in order to mislead the House?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, the issue of the murder of the former Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) Director-General was first raised by the hon. Member for Mpika. I ruled that the matter is still under investigation; let us give the hon. Minister time so that at an appropriate time, he can come and issue a statement. Then, the next day, the hon. Member for Chama South rose on a point of order again. By that time, I had already indicated that the hon. Minister was going to come to the House to issue a statement. So, it does not matter how the Ministerial Statement comes to the House. It can come through an Urgent Matter Without Notice or the hon. Minister asking to issue it following concerns raised on the Floor of the House. If the hon. Minister is of the view that a matter attracts public opinion or public interest, the hon. Minister has the right to request my office to come and deliver a Ministerial Statement. So, let us not start picking issues here and there and talking about how statements come about. Let us not be semantic.

The Ministerial Statement has been delivered. The hon. Members who wanted the statement to be delivered, such as the hon. Member for Mpika and the hon. Member for Chama South, are satisfied that the ministerial statement has been delivered. So, we have achieved the goal. What we wanted was to have a Ministerial Statement delivered. So, I see no problem with the hon. Minister coming to the House to deliver a Ministerial Statement. As earlier indicated, the matter is under investigation. So, we are constrained in terms of what type of questions we can ask.

So, let us make progress.

Ms Chisenga interjected.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mambilima, what are you saying?

Ms Chisenga: Madam Speaker, in your ruling, you have not stated if the hon. Minister is out of order or not. I seek guidance.

Madam Speaker: So, you want to be the Presiding Officer now?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister is definitely not out of order.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, we can make progress.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Madam Speaker, in his Ministerial Statement, the hon. Minister stated that three firearms were discovered, including two pistols and one AK-47. A motor vehicle and handcuffs were also recovered. I would like to know whether the owners of the firearms and the handcuffs have been identified.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, I will be delving into the investigations that are taking place now if I answer that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, when you tell a child that you are going to give him or her a good beating, but then you do not do it, and the next day you tell him or her the same thing, but you do not give him or her a good beating, the child will think that you are just joking. How long are we going to allow the junkies who were employed in the system to continue working and perpetrating evil not only in the Zambia Police Service but in many ministries? The Government always says that it will get rid of them. How long are we going to wait? We are seeing these people continuing working and frustrating the Government. I can tell the hon. Minister, even in other ministries, when some people want to push the agenda of the Government, the same people are obstructing the agenda. Even in this House, you can tell by the way they stand and talk because the Government is just giving them threats. When is the Government going to handle these people so that they are out of the system?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC: Madam Speaker, you have heard the President on a number of occasions indicate that we shall be methodical and systematic in the way we deal with issues. If we hurry processes, we might end up punishing innocent individuals. We will be thorough and we will check things in accordance with the rules and procedures currently obtaining under the Zambia Police Service. Once we are through with the processes, we will be able to identify who is fit and who is not fit to be in the Zambia Police Service.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Speaker, allow me to pass my sincere condolences to the family of Mr Muleya.

Madam Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister cleared the air on the allegations made against his police officers. Now, there is information from some media organisations and the public that the ministry is investigating some senior Government officers. So, are his officers investigating some senior Government officials regarding the murder case?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, if my hon. Colleague listened to my statement, he would have known that I indicated that we have two police officers in our custody. One officer is an employee of the IBA and another one is a member of the public and a police reserve. In the process of investigations, we might find others connected to this matter whether in the Public Service or not. For now, I have no other information to state, or that we are investigating senior public officials. I have no information to that effect. We are investigating this particular matter. If anyone is found to be connected to this heinous murder, they will be brought to book.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the statement, and I join him in conveying my condolences to the bereaved family.

Madam Speaker, some time last year, we passed a resolution in this House. We removed the death penalty from our statutes. I want to understand that arises from our respect for the sanctity of life. What can we do, going forward, to deter would-be offenders, especially of heinous crimes? This was not just a murder but an execution. Should culprits continue to enjoy unsustainable taxpayers’ money after committing heinous crimes or post-conviction? 

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, with the knowledge I have, without drawing you in, you are aware that a death sentence per se is not a deterrence against criminal activities like this one. There are other measures that can be put in place by the Government working together with society in order to provide deterrence. A life sentence on its own is deterrence enough. For me, bringing back the death sentence is not the solution. Others would even be happy to commit a crime so that they are hanged to go wherever they are supposed to go. So, I do not think that is the solution. There are other punishments that we can mete out without bringing back the death sentence.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I had given an opportunity to the hon. Member for Chama North, but he has not unmuted himself.

Hon. Member for Chama North, are you ready to ask your question?

Mr Mtayachalo: (Inaudible).

Madam Speaker: Your cousins are asking, “What is unmuting in Tumbuka?” Hon. Member, time is even up.

I do not think we will be able to hear the hon. Member.

Hon. Member, apologies. You need a few tutorials from our Information and Communication Technology (ICT) Department. Please, take advantage of that. 

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

INVESTRUST BANK TERMINAL BENEFITS

411. Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

1. whether the Government will pay terminal benefits to the over 350 former employees of Investrust Bank Plc, following the takeover of the Bank by the Bank of Zambia; and
2. if so, when the former employees will be paid.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, in accordance with the Bank of Zambia Act of 2020, the Central Bank, in line with its mandate, has been handling the transaction pertaining to Investrust Bank Plc. This notwithstanding, all employee claims in respect of severance or redundancy will be dealt with in the order of priority outlined in Section 132 of the Banking and Financial Services (Amendment) Act of 2020 as and when there is value realised from the liquidation of the residual assets.

Madam Speaker, the BoZ is further facilitating necessary documentation for eligible members of staff to access their in-house pension. In addition, the Zambia Industrial Commercial Bank (ZICB) has taken up sixteen of the former Investrust Bank branches and has recruited about sixty former staff of the bank.

Madam Speaker, with regard to when the former employees will be paid, the BoZ intends to execute the liquidation and pay out obligations in line with the priority ranking provided in the Banking and Financial Services (Amendment) Act of 2020. 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The question is specific.

 Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, do you have any question?

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, yes. I have a follow-up question for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, just to help him, I know, he has given an answer but unfortunately, the answer has not responded to the question I raised. The question that I raised relates to when the former workers of Investrust Bank Plc will be paid. The answer that the hon. Minister has given talks about residual assets. That means timelines are unknown and it will take time until we reach a stage when the Bank will have a bit of money remaining to pay its former workers. Timelines have not been specified. I think, my question was very specific. So, my first follow-up question is: When will the workers be paid? We are now in the month of August, which has thirty days. Will the workers be paid in the next thirty day or in September or October? There must be information that should be given to members of the public who used to work for this particular institution.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, one is able to specify the timeframe and say, “I will pay you on this date,” because one is sitting on a pot of money available to make a payment from. In this case, there is no pot of money yet to enable the BoZ to say that it will pay the former employees on a particular day. The first task that the BoZ is undertaking is going to the different people who borrowed money and asking them to pay. When the payments are made, the pot will be created. At that point, the bank can say, “Where we are now, there is so much money that has come in the pot. We can now make payments.” The payment priority is according to the law. Depositors are paid first, followed by creditors or other claimants. The order of priority is clearly stated in the law.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Speaker, the Intermarket Banking Corporation Zambia Limited and the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ) former workers were paid immediately after the workers were declared redundant. According to the letters of redundancy issued to Investrust Bank Plc workers, creditors will be prioritised. How different are the workers, or which law was applied? Do we have a different law that was applied? That is according to the letters given to employees. The two banks I mentioned, immediately after the workers were declared redundant, they were paid. Would the hon. Minister be kind enough to tell this House and the nation the order of priority according to the Banking and Financial Services Act?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the law applied is the same. Obviously, I want to say that in this particular case, the first priority when money is realised are the people who deposited money in the bank. If you are a depositor in a bank, you put your money in the bank, not under a pillow or with a relative, because putting it in the bank makes you feel secure. So, it is only right that when cash is realised, the first people to be considered are the depositors. There is no difference in terms of how things are handled. Things are always handled that way. So, the order of priority is, firstly, depositors get their money. There may even be those who are covered by an insurance scheme and they get higher priority. There are also those who do not have an insurance scheme. In general, depositors are priority number one. Priority number two is taxes and rates. Priority number three is wages and salaries of employees of the financial service provider, excluding executive employees, senior management and other categories of staff in that bank.  That the BoZ may determine for a period of three months. The next is charges and assessments due to the bank. Lastly, other claims against the financial services provide in such an order of priority as the court may determine on the application of the bank. So, we are following the law.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister indicated that sixteen out of the nineteen branches of Investrust Bank Plc have been take up by the Zambia Industrial Commercial Bank Limited (ZICB). This does not look like a takeover; it looks like a merger. Why have the workers not been cleared or taken up by the bank, especially that it has taken over sixteen of the nineteen branches, which is almost 89 per cent of what the bank has?

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister may answer, although that is an expanded question.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I think, the hon. Member missed my point. In my statement, I said that sixteen branches have been retained and sixty employees of Investrust Bank Plc have been rehired. This is the number that has been determined for viability. In other words, by the Zambia ZICB taking over the bank, it has to be mindful of the fact that in taking over, the ZICB itself does not become compromised. So, if the ZICB ends up taking up all the employees, the question is: Will the ZICB be able to pay the salaries? So, obviously, in its determination, it could only take sixty workers together with the sixteen branches because that way, it is assured that it will be able to pay salaries and the business of the bank will not go down so that we do not have a case of two banks failing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister indicated what law was applied for the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) to take over. He is aware that if one financial institution, in this case, the Zambia Industrial Commercial Bank Limited (ZICB), assumes sixteen branches, it is definitely a commercial transaction. There must be money involved. There is something that has happened. He cannot just assume that one bank has taken over the other one. I am sure, there was some money involved. Is it not possible to utilise those resources that were actually secured to immediately pay the workers at Investrust Bank Plc?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, yes, this was a financial transaction. The way it works is that the ZICB has taken over certain good assets. By assets, I mean the loans that were in the books of Investrust Bank Plc. So, it is not as if the ZICB received cash, no. It just received assets. These are performing assets or loans that are good, which means that every month or whatever was agreed upon, those people who owed Investrust Bank Plc will be paying their loans to the ZICB. So, no huge cash was given to Investrust Bank Plc.In exchange, the ZICB assumed certain liabilities from Investrust Bank Plc. That means customers’ deposits, which used to belong to Investrust Bank Plc, have now shifted to the ZICB. The way it works now, as those loans that were acquired by the ZICB get serviced, cash will become available to service depositors who want to withdraw their money. From this explanation, you can see that there was no pot of money that was made available to the ZICB to pay the former workers of Investrust Bank Plc.

Madam Speaker, let me also add that the law that determines the priority regarding pay outs is not the making of the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government. As you heard, that law was amended in 2020 under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. So, it is the PF Government that set the law and, of course, I agree that if a bank goes down, the first people to be paid are the depositors, and then others follow. This is something that they themselves, the PF Government, put in place. So, please, do not skin me because this is something that you put in place.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I think, we can make progress. The hon. Member for Pemba may ask his question.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, Question 411 was: Will the Government pay terminal benefits to the 350 employees? The Government said yes, it will pay. When? It will be in accordance with the law. So, what other questions do we need to ask? The question was straightforward. That is why I am moving to the next one.

CONSTRUCTION OF CORRECTIONAL FACILITY IN MPONGWE DISTRICT

412. Mr Hamwaata (Pemba) (on behalf of Mr Ngowani (Mpongwe)) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct a correctional facility in Mpongwe District;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
3. what the estimated cost of the project is.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct a 480-capacity correctional facility in Mpongwe District. The Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security has embarked on infrastructure development in the Zambia Correctional Service in order to provide humane custodial services to inmates and to decongest correctional centres. There are plans to construct ultra-modern correctional centres across the country. To this effect, plans to construct a correctional centre in Mpongwe District will be implemented when funds are made available.

Madam Speaker, plans to construct a correctional centre in Mpongwe District will be implemented when funds are made available.

Madam Speaker, the cost of constructing a modern correctional facility with 480 inmates holding capacity in Mpongwe District is estimated at K28,200,000.00.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Hamwaata: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister very much for the response that has satisfied the good people of Mpongwe District. I would like to know whether the construction of the correctional facility will also include houses for officers.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, whenever we build a new facility like the one we intend to build in Mpongwe District, we build staff houses.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, in his submission, the hon. Minister indicated that the Government intends to construct correctional centres across the country. Is it possible for the hon. Minister to mention some of the districts where correctional facilities will be constructed?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I am not in a position to outrightly indicate the districts, but in future, I will be able to come back and give a list of the districts where correctional facilities will be constructed. 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hamwaata: Madam Speaker, I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister that the good people of Mpongwe Constituency are in dire need of this facility. This is because of the distance they cover to Luanshya, which is about 65 km. You may recall that at one time, an accident happened as a result of transporting suspects to Luanshya for court appearances. What immediate measures would the Govenrment consider for the good people of Mpongwe Constituency since it still has to look for resources to construct the facility?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, as I indicated, we have plans to construct a correctional facility in Mpongwe. In the interim, we are going to be using the system that we have been utilising for a long time now, which is transporting inmates from Mpongwe to Luanshya. As you may be aware, at least for the time being, we have modern transportation to transport inmates to Luanshya.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I was going to move to the next question.

Hon. Member for Mitete, I hope you are not about to talk about the Katunda Road.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, I thought that the hon. Minister would encourage the new districts to collaborate or rather meet each other half way to build facilities using money from the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security and the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Going forward, can we not meet each other half way by getting funds from the ministry and the CDF?

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I would like to appreciate the hardworking hon. Member of Parliament for Mitete, who has offered that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is available to contribute towards the construction of a correctional facility. What I can encourage him to do is to indicate that to us that the community is ready and we will start construction work. We will provide the labour. As you may have noticed, of late, chiefs’ palaces are being constructed by the Zambia Correctional Service. We have the capacity to build and we are willing to collaborate with him. We accept the offer.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: On that note, I have an observation. I was just wondering why the hon. Member for Mpongwe was not able to ask this question on his own. He has the right to ask questions and to debate. He does not need to speak through the hon. Member for Pemba.

Mr B. Mpundu: Where is he?

Madam Speaker: I saw him go out. He was here, but then he went out. I think, he was worried about what is happening on the right. Where are all the hon. Members on the right?

Mr B. Mpundu: They are not serious.

Madam Speaker: Are there Committee sittings? This Committee thing also.

Let us make progress.

_______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTS ON THE REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL ON THE CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUND FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR ENDED 31^ST DECEMBER, 2022

Mr Mulunda (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Local Government Accounts on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for the Financial Year Ended 31^st December, 2022 for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 31^st July, 2024.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER

PRESENCE OF PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM LITTLE SAINTS PRIVATE SCHOOL, KABWATA, LUSAKA

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from Little Saints Private School in Kabwata, Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

Thank you.

________

(Debate resumed)

Mr Mulunda: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was about to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Local Government Accounts on the Report of the Auditor-General on the CDF for the Financial Year Ended 31^st December, 2022, for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 31^st July, 2024.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear! One Nyambose, sixty-five.

Mr Mulunda: Mr Speaker, in line with its terms of reference, your Committee considered the Report of the Auditor-General on the utilisation of the CDF. Your Committee had occasion to interact with accounting authorities and other relevant stakeholders on the subject-matter. The interaction revealed various weaknesses in the utilisation of the fund.

Mr Speaker, allow me to quickly mention that the 2022 CDF allocation and subsequent utilisation was the first of its kind, considering that this was the year that the Fund was increased from K1.6 million to K25.7 million. This increment came with new guidelines and regulations that, to a great extent, affected the speed of the utilisation of funds because of the delay in launching the guidelines. The delay in the launch of the CDF guidelines, the issuance of ministerial circulars on the management of the loan empowerment component of the CDF, the control measures of the CDF, the delay in the approval of projects for implementation by the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development and the requirement of the Office of the Attorney-General to centrally approve contracts that were more than K1 million, were some of the bottlenecks experienced.

Mr Speaker, your Committee learned with dismay that grant funds were misapplied by councils on account of failure to conduct monitoring and ignoring the Technical Appraisal Committees’ recommendations by the CDF Committees. In this regard, your Committee urges accounting authorities to impress upon the CDF Committee members to always take into account the recommendations of the Technical Appraisal Committees. Your Committee discovered that beneficiaries implemented projects without supervision and, in most instances, failed to meet the intended objectives of the funds. Your Committee, in this regard, urges the affected accounting authorities to provide capacity building for beneficiaries and enhance monitoring in order to prevent wastage of public resources.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also expressed concern at the rate at which councils are exhausting their administrative component of the CDF as it does not correspond with the number of monitoring activities they conducted and the quality of projects they implemented. In view of this, your Committee urges the accounting authorities to be prudent with the use of the administrative component of the CDF so that monitoring of projects will not be affected. Your Committee remains confident that with the measures being put in place by the Government on the administration of the fund, irregularities will drastically reduce.

Mr Speaker, let me conclude by thanking you and the Office of the Clerk for the guidance and support you rendered to your Committee during its deliberations. I further wish to thank all the stakeholders who appeared before the Committee. I also thank the permanent witnesses for the technical support they rendered to the Committee. I also wish to appreciate the members of your Committee for their co-operation and dedication to Committee work, which made my role as chairperson easy.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Nyambose: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to second the Motion. I also thank the chairperson of your Committee for the able manner in which he highlighted the critical issues that have been observed in our report.

Mr Speaker, in seconding the Motion, allow me to touch on the areas that the chairperson may not have touched. The first one is the management of the contracts by the implementing agency or the local authorities. Your Committee observed that there are serious gaps in the implementation of projects, especially in the management of contracts. As you are aware, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is a game-changer. The enhanced CDF is meant to uplift communities in terms of projects and other services provided to communities. However, gaps have been observed. One of them is contract management. You will note that two councils were highlighted in this report, that is Lupososhi and Kanchibiya. In the year ending 31^st December, 2022, Lupososhi Town Council failed to award contracts to the local people. Further, it could not award contracts to any contractor within the province. The same was the case with Kanchibiya Town Council. The directive from the Government is that councils should first empower locals because the CDF is meant for locals. The money given to districts is supposed to benefit the local people. Despite the contractors having capacity, we discovered that contracts were awarded to people from outside the province. That is not only happening in Lupososhi and Kanchibiya but across the country. This was the observation made by your Committee. Therefore, your Committee recommends that the people who have the capacity to implement projects within the districts or provinces be given a chance to carry out works so that the money remains within the areas to benefit the local people.

Mr Speaker, the second issue that I observed but was not highlighted by the chairperson is the issue of delayed completion of works. Your Committee observed a serious delay in the completion of work across all councils. A project that is supposed to be implemented in twelve weeks takes more than a year. When you check the Auditor-General’s report, you will note that there were multiple extensions. Some people will tell you that extensions are at no cost at all. They fail to understand that delaying the period of implementation is a cost on its own. This does not resonate well with the vision of the President, who said that projects should be implemented within the shortest period, at the right cost and at the true value of the money. So, when there is a delay, there is a loss of value for money. This is one of the observations that your Committee made in the area of delayed completion of works.

Mr Speaker, the other area that my able chairperson did not highlight, is the failure to avail supporting documents, especially accounting documents to external auditors. Many times, council officers have appeared before the Committee and have not availed documents. There are usually missing vouchers and unsupported stores. All accounting documents go missing during the time of audits. So, I wonder why financial documents go missing. I suspect that it is deliberate because money is not being utilised accordingly. This is a very big issue. We need to see the value of the CDF so that all the resources allocated are utilised according to the Government's desire. This issue appears in the Auditor-General’s report. Year in, year out, there are missing documents deliberately. These are financial documents. That means resources are not utilised prudently. The recommendation is that we should ensure that local authorities account for the resources prudently and accordingly.

Mr Speaker, there are many observations highlighted by the chairperson, but I thought I should touch on these to augment what my able chairperson highlighted.

Mr Speaker, with those remarks, I second the Motion ably moved by my chairperson.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I would also like to make a few comments and particularly speak to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Mr Speaker, the report has been presented before this Parliament by the Committee on Local Government Accounts. It highlights the audit that was conducted on the utilisation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for 2022. I understand that from the word go, when the CDF was enhanced, we spoke of teething problems. It was expected that we were going to face teething problems because the Fund had been enhanced. So, most of what has been highlighted in the report speaks to the challenges that we have spoken to.

Mr Speaker, before I go any further, I would like to implore your Committee to make changes to the report, specifically on page 65, which speaks about Nkana. I think, there is a small mistake made by your Committee. The K850,000 was not spent from the Nkana account but from Kamfinsa. So, that must be corrected.

Mr Speaker, a reminder to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, the problems that we have presented before him on different occasions and fora, have impacted or impeded the effective implementation of the CDF. The number one problem is bureaucracy. I recognise that the hon. Minister decided to delegate the authority to approve projects to provincial committees. However, I wish to bring to his attention that it used to take less time to get projects approved when he used to approve them than now when the provinces approve them because of the committees at the provinces. So, he needs to look at this. Provincial committees are created with different people and they meet at will. So, it is taking longer to approve projects than when the hon. Minister used to do it. In fact, there are certain characters within the provincial committees who deliberately try to usurp the decisions of the CDF committees by dictating what the CDF committees do not want.

Mr Speaker, on page 265, the report speaks to Nkana. I want to speak to Nkana as well. The report suggests that after the audit, K4.4 million had not been spent as at the end of 2022. Now, K4.4 million is a lot of money. I have lamented why some projects for 2022 in Nkana have not been implemented as we speak. I am not speaking about one or two but three projects that have not even started since 2022. The challenge is failure to agree with ministries on certain projects. Particularly, I have a problem with the Ministry of Health.The hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural development needs to pay attention to this issue. Communities are mandated by the CDF to decide what they want. If a community wants a clinic, it is not up to the ministry to dictate otherwise. The reason some projects have not been implemented as we speak is, a community wants a health post but the ministry wants a hospital. We who have the money know what we want and what the money can purchase, but the Ministry of Health is dictating otherwise. That is why from 2022 up to now, construction of two clinics, one in Kandabwe and another one in Luyando, has not started yet people there are expecting the infrastructure. It is now almost mid-2024 and nothing is happening. So, I implore the hon. Minister to harmonise the way ministries work. Ministries should not be dictating projects for communities because by design, we expect communities to make their own decisions. Why do ministries want to usurp the decision-making power of communities by dictating what must be done in communities?

Mr Speaker, the other issue that the hon. Minister needs to be aware of has been highlighted in the report, though it was misplaced; it was meant for Kamfinsa. The issue is monies meant to support water utilities. We have a problem of water in some areas in Nkana. On several occasions, hon. Ministers have urged us to use the CDF to support the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation to address water problems. However, the problem is that we allocate money meant to go to water utility companies, but the local authorities insist that they must be the ones to procure projects. I think, the water utilities are better placed to manage the money allocated to water issues. So, I am of the view that we must harmonise this. For instance, in Nkana, we have allocated K5 million out of the 2024 CDF to address the problem of water in Mindolo. My thinking is that the K5 million should just be given to Nkana Water and Sanitation Company Limited because it knows the problem. Therefore, it should be the one to manage the money. However, the local authority is insisting that the council must carry out procurement of the project. There is going to be a problem. So, I thought that the hon. Minister must pay attention to that.

Mr Speaker, regarding bureaucracy, there are many implications that come with delays in implementing projects. I will give an example. In Nkana, we planned to procure a compactor in 2023. We got quotations, but I cannot specify the figure that was quoted. However, because of delays, we had to spend an extra K1.3 million. So, you can see how bureaucracy is affecting a very good programme.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! A very good programme!

Mr B. Mpundu: Yes.

Mr Speaker, I want to insist as I have always insisted, the CDF remains a very good agenda to take development to local communities. However, as long as we do not pay attention to the issues highlighted, the programme will remain like a hoax. Please, underline that. It will remain like it is a scam because we have failed to address the impediments that have been highlighted from when the CDF was enhanced. I am here to support the hon. Minister but, he should be prepared to listen. I want to commend him because when he found a problem last week, he called me and we harmonised the issue. I think, that is what we ought to do. We are partners in development. So, the issues highlighted in the report will only help make the CDF an effective programme to deliver development to the people.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member for Nkana. You have done well to commend the hon. Minister for doing well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving me the chance to support the Motion on the Floor of the House on the implementation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) on behalf of the people of Lundazi.

Mr Speaker, when something is good, it is usually spoiled by too many cooks. Too many cooks spoil the broth. The CDF is a good programme. However, I want to highlight some issues that make it seem as if it is not good. The hon. Minister should pay attention to the issuance of Statutory Instruments (SIs) or ministerial statements on the same programme. I do not know how many letters he has written instructing us differently over the same issue. Today, one thing is said, tomorrow it is changed. That spoils the broth because there are too many instructions coming from the ministry.

Mr Speaker, I also want to talk about the issue of calling upon Council Secretaries, Directors of Works and all other council workers to be at Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute. They are always there. We cannot have a situation in which councils do not have Accountants, Council Secretaries or District Procurement Officers because they go to Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute. When they go there, they stay for more than three weeks. How can they implement projects? By the time they come back, they are tired. Before they settle into the office, the Government calls them back again to Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute. The Government should devise a different way to update council officers. It would be wise to start giving them instructions virtually. Maybe, council officers should attend meetings virtually. The trips to Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute are eroding the user fees that councils are supposed to keep. All the money is used for traveling to meetings. The worst thing is that they even use the CDF vehicles. They drive to Lusaka or Chongwe and stay there for three weeks. By the time they come back, another invitation is received for another officer. The hon. Minister should work on that so that council officers can sit in the office and attend to pressing issues in our constituencies.

Mr Speaker, the report has talked about the quality of projects. There is a need for the hon. Minister to intentionally create a team to inspect projects, not the cadres we see going to inspect projects. No. He should create a professional team that will travel to districts and constituencies to check the quality of works being done. If he will not do that, he is going to spoil the broth.

Mr Speaker, the report has also talked about management of contracts. We cannot have all contracts given to people out of Lundazi when the projects are CDF projects for Lundazi. That is very painful. When I ask the Council Secretary about this, he or she is tongue-tied because of fear. The hon. Minister should sort out the wickedness happening in the awarding of contracts. Whilst it is good to give one, two or three contracts to cadres who are able to do the work, do not spoil this good programme. Cadres who come and take over projects do not complete them. For example, works in Lukwizizi have not been completed and we cannot point at the contractor.  However, if the contractor were in Lundazi, it would have been easy for me to say, “Ba Phiri, can you get back to the project. Otherwise, I am going to deal with you.” It is difficult for me as the Member of Parliament to do that with contractors coming from outside the district. When we adjourn tomorrow, I will go back to Lundazi. I will not find the contractors who got contracts to work on projects in Fyofyo and Lukwizizi. They ran away after getting funds. They are nowhere to be seen and the projects have not been completed.

Mr Speaker, the other issue that the hon. Minister needs to liaise with the new hon. Minister of Health is to operationalise the buildings we construct using the CDF. We have finished building some clinics, but the Ministry of Health has not done its part. The hon. Minister should liaise with the new hon. Minister of Health so that he can operationalise some of the buildings that have been completed. The idea of wanting a clinic to have four staff houses completed is not going to happen because we have little resources. As we wait to have those additional structures, the buildings are being vandalised. If a clinic is completed and there are houses nearby that people can rent, the ministry should allow the clinic to start operating. That is the only way that the CDF is going to have meaning.

Mr Speaker, I also want the hon. Minister to deal with the anxiety of not allowing Opposition hon. Members of Parliament to officially open projects. One can say that hon. Members of Parliament should not go anywhere near them, or a Minister can go to the Boma and say he has officially opened all projects alone. I can tell the hon. Minister that that is disadvantaging not only the Government but myself. For me, that is my house. Let the Government work properly with hon. Members of Parliament by allowing us to be part of officially opening projects, especially that we are the owners of the CDF.

Mr Speaker, I have seen that the issue of monies being taken back to the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) has become a nagging issue. Once a contractor has been given a contract, we wait for a month before the BoZ releases the funds for someone to take over. Too many cooks spoil the broth. The CDF is a good programme, but if we do not put our mind to it, the hon. Minister will find himself with no projects to officially open. In addition, there is a need for the Government to allow us the people, especially from rural areas, to have an easier way of bidding. The Government wants us to use the electronic mode of bidding in Lundazi. However, most of the time, there is no network. So, when are we going to find contractors who can bid electronically? It is important for the hon. Minister to work on those issues.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important report on behalf of the people of Chienge. I know, Chienge Town Council is one of the councils that was audited. Its officers were called to appear before the Committee.

Mr Speaker, as my hon. Colleagues alluded to, we have challenges. The creation of provincial Constituency Development Fund (CDF) committees has disadvantaged councils including the council in Chienge. There was a time when the CDF committee decided to buy mattresses for a rural health centre. I was shocked to see that the provincial committee rejected that request yet the provincial committee members do not live in Chienge. My hon. Colleagues have already said that provincial committees seem to dilly-dally on projects that come from areas which do not belong to the Ruling Party. We have had challenges to have our projects approved. As a result, our funds have been mopped up from our council account. Just like my hon. Colleague said, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is a man of action. So, I hope that he will move in quickly to enable councils to approve projects on time.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of contracts and projects, allow me to disagree with my hon. Colleagues, especially the seconder of the Motion. Yes, we intend to empower the locals, but look at the quality of work done. If you came to Chienge, you would agree that some works were a sheer waste of public funds. Yes, we want to empower local contractors, but we should select the projects that can be given to local contractors, especially buildings. When we talk of constructing schools or anything to do with civil engineering, let us give contracts to reputable contractors. On that issue, I insist that we give projects to qualified contractors. I went to Chienge a month ago. I found that a school that was constructed recently has cracks starting from the foundation. Those who have studied civil engineering will agree with me that there is a problem with the structure. That structure might collapse in two or three years. So, I think it is important that we choose the kind of contracts that should be given to our local people rather than being wasteful with taxpayers' money. I have seen some local contractor who was given a contract to drill a borehole and install solar power fail to do it. Local contractors can only build a 1 x 3 classroom block and then wait for a year plus for someone else to come and carry out other aspects of the project. These are the challenges that the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development should look into when it looks at what is called the Electronic Government Procurement System (e-GP). Let us look at contractors who can implement big projects and then allocate projects to our local contractors that can be handled by them. Even on the issue of desks, I have seen some desks in the North-Western Province and Chienge made out of wood that had not cured. So, those desks will start cracking and tearing the uniforms of the children, but their parents cannot afford to buy them new uniforms.

Mr Speaker, I also want to urge the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to be monitoring students who are in skills training centres or trade schools. There is an instruction from the ministry that if Chienge Town Council wants to monitor or check if children from Chienge reported to Handsworth Institution in Chongwe, for example, officers cannot travel. The council needs to involve another council, for example, Chongwe Municipal Council to monitor the students. Do the officers from Chongwe Municipal Council know the children from Chienge? They do not know them. In addition, the council referred to has its own projects to monitor. So, more work has been added to the councils in peri-urban and urban areas. When Chienge Town Council wants to monitor the students, it is told to ask Mansa Town Council to monitor the students on its behalf. However, Mansa Town Council is not able to do that because it has its own projects to monitor in Bahati Constituency and Mansa Central Constituency. I think, the hon. Minister needs to look at this issue. There are children who enrolled in some courses but did not report to schools. Yet the council has been paying the fees. At the end of the day, you find out that the students did not report to the schools. The hon. Minister should find a solution for the councils to get refunds from the secondary schools and trade schools.

Mr Speaker, the other issue that I want to talk about is intimidation of CDF committee members. In Chienge, the CDF committee cannot sit because there is too much intimidation from certain circles. Even council workers are being intimidated. I do not think that the projects for the CDF for 2025 will be allocated because there is so much intimidation from external forces. There are certain people who want to be chairperson of the committee, but they are not qualified. So, it is important that the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development comes to the aid of councils before funds are mopped up from the council accounts.

Mr Speaker, the other issue is the Ward Development Committees (WDC). The WDCs are still appealing to the Government for incentives. Most members of the WDCs like those in Chienge, walk long distances. I plead with the hon. Minister to look into the issue because the people of Chienge look up to him. They know that he is a man of action. Please, let him intervene to address the issues that are preventing the CDF committee from sitting in Chienge.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to add my voice on behalf of the good people of Pemba on the debate on the report of the Committee on Local Government Accounts, on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Utilisation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for the Financial Year Ended 31^st December, 2022.

Mr Speaker, I am happy that the CDF is no longer a controversial issue. It is no longer political. We all agree that the CDF is a game-changer. Having gone through the report of your Committee, I feel that this report is very important to your hon. Members, the Executive and the public. The report of your Committee has presented feedback on three major areas. Firstly, whether the CDF is being utilised prudently by the local authorities mandated to spend it on behalf of the people. Secondly, the report of your Committee has given us feedback as to whether the delivery of goods and services through the vehicle called the CDF is satisfying the public. Thirdly, the report has presented an opportunity to your hon. Members and the Executive to identify impediments or gaps in the implementation of the CDF.

Mr Speaker, the Auditor-General’s report bemoaned the failure by the local authorities to provide necessary documents to auditors during the time of audits. One wonders what the challenge is when there is qualified manpower in the local authorities, such as auditors, treasurers and financial managers. In my view, the irregularities pointed out by the Auditor-General have exposed the financial auditors in our institutions. There is no way we can have all these financial irregularities when we have internal auditors in these institutions. It is difficult to understand why we have all these financial irregularities when we have qualified accountants, financial managers and district treasurers. We need to interrogate the independence of these officers, especially the internal auditors, whose duty is to advise the local authorities on the utilisation of the funds. We must begin to think of the independence of auditors. We must start having a conversation probably to re-align the auditors so that they are under the supervision of the Auditor-General.

 Mr Speaker, may I quickly look at the supervision of community projects. One of the challenges I have discovered is the issue of transport. One may wonder what I mean. I appreciate that Land Cruisers were bought specifically for the supervision of projects under the CDF. However, the House may wish to understand that using a Land Cruiser to supervise forty, fifteen or ten projects running at the same time is very costly. I, therefore, propose that local authorities start thinking of procuring motorbikes to reduce the cost of supervision of projects and enable our officers to inspect four or five projects in a day.

Mr Speaker, one other issue I wish to bring to the attention of the House is capacity in terms of project management. I propose that the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development works in conjunction with the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development through agents such as the National Council for Construction (NCC) and the Engineering Institute of Zambia (EIZ) to provide council officers with project management skills. Once their skills are enhanced, the delivery of community projects in our constituencies will also improve.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity you have given me to contribute to the debate on this very important report.

Mr Speaker, allow me to start by commending the Committee. I also commend the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development for the latitude we have been given to implement the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) in Kanchibiya Constituency. Allow me to also salute our officers at the local council in Kanchibiya Constituency, because I know the hard work that they put in. They work in a rough terrain day and night. Sometimes, I find them working at night to ensure that projects are on schedule before the onset of the rain. So, I commend them for that. In commending them, I want to say that when we have had bad eggs, we have not been shy to report to the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC). I want to commend the LGSC because it has been very proactive in uprooting bad eggs from Kanchibiya Constituency.

Mr Speaker, the CDF is a commendable intervention. Where I come from, we say, ichilowele chine chiilombelaumuchile. That means, “What is nice will praise itself or attract praise for itself.” Ichilowele chine chi ilobembela umuchile. I know, where the hon. Minister comes from, they say, “Utachiyandi, achileke.”

Laughter

Mr Chanda: It means, “The one who does not like it can leave it.”

Mr Speaker, supervision is one of the key issues that has come out under CDF projects. As a rural constituency and as a new district, mobility of council officers is a very big challenge. I want to make a special plea to the hon. Minister of Local Governments and Rural Development to kindly consider rural councils even under the 2025 CDF.I want to pray and believe that the allocation for the CDF will be increased. The hon. Minister should consider providing more Land Cruisers for rural councils in 2025. This will facilitate easier monitoring of projects. The same goes for the Ward Development Committees (WDCs). In 2024, we were able to procure bicycles for WDCs because our constituency is vast. It is 8,800 km². There can be ten constituencies in our district. A district like Lusaka, which is 360 km², is twenty-four times smaller than Kanchibiya Constituency. So, without mobility, how do we expect our councils to supervise projects?

Mr Speaker, one of the issues highlighted in the report is the burn rate of finances. Decentralisation is important and it is the way to go. I want to continue supporting the idea of decentralisation. We should decentralise human resource and financial systems right to the bottom. When we do that, the burn rate of finances by local councils will increase because of decentralised human resource and financial systems.

Mr Speaker, allow me to speak to the capacities of our local contractors. My good brother, the hon. Member for Chasefu, made reference to Kanchibiya. I wish to remind him that his constituency failed to spend K17 million arising from the formulation of the CDF guidelines. It could not spend the money on the seventeen approved projects.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Chanda: We are dealing with a new programme and, as a new programme, we do not want to give projects as confetti to our people. We are looking for quality and quantity as well. We do not want to construct bridges that will turn into death traps. We want to construct buildings that will outlive us and stand the test of time. 

Mr Speaker, allow me to mention that what you do not inspect, you cannot expect. The CDF monitoring vehicle is serving two purposes in a constituency like Kanchibiya. The first one is to monitor the CDF projects. The second one is to help the council to undertake its supervisory role and to perform its functions that are tied to the CDF. The council in Kanchibiya has no transport. It is limping. If we hold on to the vehicle for monitoring the CDF projects, the council is not going to perform its duties. My plea is that under the 2025 Budget, let us provide for vehicles for councils, especially rural councils across the country.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I want to make a clarion call in terms of equity. Constituencies such as mine have very unique challenges because of where we are coming from, who we are and the levels of underdevelopment. A model like what Kenya presents is something we need to look at. Threequarters of what is allocated to the CDF is shared equally amongst constituencies. The remaining one quarter goes to the least developed constituencies. Therein comes the aspect of equity as opposed to equality across the board.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I wish to support this very important report. I stand ready to support the ministry in undertaking its mandate.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sialubalo (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for the opportunity you have given me to debate this very important report pertaining to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, if you utilise just four minutes of your time, we will be able to accommodate many hon. Members.

Mr Sialubalo: I will try to reserve some minutes for other hon. Members.

Mr Speaker, the CDF is indeed a game-changer. We are coming from a situation in which we never had any money, but now we have a lot. Therefore, I would like to thank the New Dawn Administration for upgrading the CDF. Hon. Minister, job well done. So far, even the remote parts of our constituencies are seeing developmental projects which the constituents come up with. That is a milestone for areas like Kanchibiya, Sinazongwe and Shiwang’andu just to mention a few, that never saw any development. We are seeing a lot of development. So, kudos to the New Dawn Administration.

Mr Speaker, the CDF has many challenges because we are coming from a situation in which we never had any money, but now we have plenty. As a result, we are moving away from a poor arrangement to a rich arrangement so challenges are there. I saw a lot of correspondence from the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to local authorities on how the CDF should be utilised. Guidelines and directives were there. That situation was very normal. We came from a situation in which we never had any money to a situation in which our local authorities are handling a lot of money. Therefore, they had challenges. I thank the hon. Minister for the correspondence between the ministry and the local authorities because I have seen a total reduction in issues. That means stability has come to councils. Councils are now using the money well. Of course, there are still a few challenges here and there.

Mr Speaker, the other challenge that the report has highlighted is the Attorney-General’s Chamber. There was a plan that each province should have an Attorney-General’s Chamber. I do not know how far that has gone. It is too cumbersome for the Attorney General’s Chamber here in Lusaka to be clearing contracts for all the 156 constituencies. Many projects delay because of this situation. We need to work around the clock to see to it that every provincial headquarters has an Attorney-General’s Chamber so that we speed up project clearance.

Mr Speaker, the other issue that is prevalent is workshops for Controlling Officers in councils. They travel frequently to either Lusaka or Livingstone to attend workshops. Speaking for Sinazongwe, I have seen a reduction in trips for Controlling Officers. That means we are moving in the right direction. We shall see many projects being completed on time.

Mr Speaker, the other issue is the administration fee. I do not know how the hon. Minister can handle that. You will find that projects are not completed, but the administration fee component is exhausted. I do not know how best the hon. Minister can handle that issue. At the end of the day, there should be correlation between project implementation and the administration fee.

Mr Speaker, those are the areas I thought the hon. Minister should take a closer look at.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.    

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, thank you; although I have been called to debate after I was skipped.

Mr Speaker, firstly, I want to start –

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what did you say?

Mr Fube: I was thanking you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The first thing you said. We can retrieve the verbatim. What did you say?

Resume your seat.

Mr Fube resumed his seat.

Interruptions

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity on behalf of the people of Mbabala to contribute to the debate on the report of the Committee on Local Government Accounts, ably moved by the chairperson of the Committee, Hon. Mulunda. The Motion was also ably seconded.

Mr Speaker, in the interest of time, I would like to quickly touch on a few issues under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). First of all, I commend His Excellency President Hakainde Hichilema for giving us this very important tool to deliver development to the people of Zambia and in particular, the people of Mbabala. I also commend the hon. Minister because he is a very proactive Minister. He deals with issues there and then. I can testify that because I have had projects submitted to him for approval. 

Mr Speaker, on the issue of the contingency fund for disasters under the CDF, we complained about it last year, but it has remained an issue this year. When a disaster has happened, and we need to drill a borehole, buy pipes or replace a roof of a school, the request for these projects still have to go to the District Disaster Management Committee. The committee members have to go to the field and check. When they come back, they say “that one is not a disaster.” That puts us in quandary and in a very difficult situation. The community asked for the borehole to be fixed, but the Disaster Management Committee says that is not a disaster. I think, let us define a disaster fully. What the community sees as a disaster is a borehole not functioning because pipes have collapsed, an incinerator not working at the clinic, roofs blown off in schools and the like. That is what communities see as disasters. So, let us clarify this and efficiently deal with disasters. I think, we said that a disaster must be dealt with within twenty-four hours as opposed to three or six months. So, let us push that.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of contract management and quality control in construction, whenever I go around monitoring projects, I find that the quality of the finishing is not top notch. Our engineering departments still need more human resource to go on the ground. Maybe, the Government should give them more interns so that they can go on the ground to monitor projects. The quality of the finishing is not up to standard. You will find that window latches are not finished, doors do not fit or close well and floors are cracked. When you go back again after some time, you will find that those things have still not been fixed. So, the issue of quality control by our engineering departments should be worked on.

Mr Speaker, the process of executing projects needs team work at councils. There are always issues of people saying that they have not received a memorandum, or an Action-Taken Report has not been produced. We should have a mechanism within councils to produce these documents. Last time, we said that there needs to be a bureaucratic system to ensure that whatever is in the minutes agreed by the CDF committee is executed by having an Action-Taken Report. However, you will find that things are agreed upon, but three months later, things have not been acted on.

Mr Speaker, there is a restriction on the number of sittings of the CDF committee. Committee sittings are restricted to four, but the volume of work is huge. For example, in my constituency, the projects that communities requested for this year were worth K100 million. Of course, we have only about K12 million to spend on projects. The whole process of going through 600 applications or more for grants and 1,000 for bursaries is very tedious. Probably, the sittings for the CDF committee must be increased to six as opposed to four in a year.

Mr Speaker, regarding administration, we need feedback to the communities. Feedback to communities is very slow. I think, we need to increase efficiency in providing feedback to communities. In the upcoming guidelines, we need to consider a social fund for constituencies. This is because we receive many people who need coffins and transport money to and from colleges. For example, right now, there is a demand for meal allowances from the students we sent to colleges. Some people need to be evacuated from local hospitals; for example, from Macha Mission Hospital to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). You will find that the constituency office does not have money for these things. So, the money ends up coming from my pocket. Is it possible for the new guidelines to include a social fund to deal with these matters in a more logical manner to help the people in constituencies?

Mr Speaker, I know, currently we are not paying for diploma courses under the CDF. One time, I was listening to the hon. Minister in Mazabuka. He admitted that the selection of courses must be done by the community. There are many people who want to study agriculture, nursing and other related diploma courses. Many people ask for nkongole or debt from us hon. Members of Parliament to help them pay school fees for their children who are studying nursing or agriculture. Just this morning, somebody called me and told me that his child is studying agriculture in Mpika. He asked me to help him pay the school fees. So, I ask the hon. Minister to increase the courses to be covered under the bursary scheme and let communities decide the courses. 

Mr Speaker, regarding monitoring and evaluation, this is a management tool that is supposed to help the delivery of projects. I have seen that certain groups go to constituencies to monitor projects, but there are no reports about the work. Where do they take the reports? When you monitor a project, you must report and show your terms of reference and the changes that need to happen. The various groups that go round monitoring projects in areas that are not in the guidelines must be controlled. Reports should be used properly as a management tool to control things as guided in the guidelines.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I want to concur on the issue of adding value to the work of the CDF. Like I mentioned, in Mbabala, there are eleven clinics that are ready and two maternity wings. These came from the President’s directive. So, the hon. Minister should help us to talk to the Ministry of Health –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Munsanje: Mr Speaker, that was the last point. I wanted to ask the hon. Minister to talk to the hon. Minister of Health.

Interruptions

Eng. Daka (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to add my voice to the debate on this important report on behalf of the people of Chadiza.

Mr Speaker, let me cite the report regarding Chadiza Town Council. The report has cited the council as having failed to spend K20 million in 2022. There are various reasons the council failed to spend the indicated amount. The first one is the lack of capacity in 2022. Just coming up with a simple architectural design was a big problem. Even worse, coming up with a design for a crossing point or a bridge was a nightmare. In order to come up with a design for a bridge, you need to understand certain software used in structural analysis, such as Prokon, AutoCAD, Civil 3D and other technical software we use in order to come up with solutions to some of the bottlenecks that we encounter in engineering. At my council, Chadiza Town Council, there was no capacity to deal with such type of things. A Bill of Quantity (BoQ) is derived from engineering designs. Therefore, there is no way to embark on implementing works if there are no drawings. This factor affected the council in a very negative manner in 2022, which is the year under consideration.

Mr Speaker, the other factor that led to the failure to spend the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) was the failure to supervise the few projects that were running. During the rainy season, some areas became inaccessible. We had projects that technical people could not access during the rainy season, but the contractors proceeded to carry out the works. The procedure is that at every stage, the contractor has to seek permission to proceed to the next stage. A contractor constructed a slab but it could not be checked in order for him to carry out subsequent works. However, the contractor was not given direction as to how he should proceed because the council staff could not access the project site at the time. How do you expect the council to spend the project money when a contractor has not been given guidance or instructions whatsoever on how to proceed? That is the other point that led to the failure by the council to spend the aforesaid amount of the CDF.

Mr Speaker, the other issue that is very important, that the mover of the Motion mentioned, is the approval system. The approval system was not known then. There were many teething problems that this programme faced at inception. I am sure, you are aware of what happened at inception. Most councils countrywide could not execute works to expectations. Most of the councils that spent the money are those that decided to procure equipment. If, for instance, all the money under community projects was allocated to procurement of earth-moving equipment, a council would be deemed to have spent 100 per cent of the money under community projects. However, there would be no tangible works that the equipment would have produced. On record, all the money under community projects would have been spent, but the council just bought earth-moving equipment. I am not against buying that equipment. I am saying, it is one of the tactics that most councils used to spend the money. My council, being in the state in which it is, could not go that way because there were many challenges in the constituency. If you looked at my constituency, you would see that it is very backward in terms of development. We wanted to embark on projects involving construction of a number of health posts and schools and drilling of boreholes or water facilities. That is how we wanted to spend our funds under the CDF.

Mr Speaker, let me not dwell so much on what caused the failure to spend the 2022 CDF. I also want to address an issue that should be considered very much. This point is very important; it is the directives we get from the ministry. I will cite my own constituency as an example. We have many competing needs in my constituency. Then, we received a directive from the ministry regarding the construction of a chief’s palace. This activity got almost all the allocation under community projects. Yet we had many outstanding projects that the people themselves wanted to implement. The construction of a chief’s palace basically benefits a single chief. However, if we constructed a health post, drilled a borehole or constructed a water scheme, many people would benefit. I know, at the end of the day, what is more important is to look at the masses. I am not disagreeing with the fact that chiefs need palaces. I am not saying that. I am specifically looking at the needs of some constituencies. The majority of the people in my constituency wanted the council to carry out more community projects than to focus on building a chief’s palace.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, thank you very much. Due to limited time, I will focus my debate on just one critical component.

Mr Speaker, I feel that the vision of President Hakainde Hichilema to increase the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) could be facing a challenge in its implementation. I strongly believe that, like many other departments in the Government system, the CDF has received a lot of funds and expanded its activities. So, many activities have to be co-ordinated. What could be missing is the failure to establish a functional operations department to co-ordinate all the operations in councils. In Mufulira, we bought almost all the equipment needed to improve service delivery in the constituency. However, many times, as Member of Parliament, I struggle to understand why there is a bulldozer or a tractor-loader-backhoe (TLB) machine marooned somewhere. Equipment is lying idly somewhere because we have not given councils the capacity to co-ordinate activities efficiently, hence activities are not being co-ordinated properly. We have put the blame on Town Clerks or Council Chairpersons, but I strongly believe that the function of co-ordinating operations in councils should be separated from executive functions. Co-ordinating activities, producing results, reducing costs and becoming efficient is an art that has some science behind it. We need to ensure that things are done right. We keep on putting pressure on Town Clerks. They are there to carry out executive functions in the implementation of the CDF. We have forgotten the role of optimal operations. I am sure, engineers could have studied operations management and are able to understand what I am talking about. To co-ordinate activities in an organisation in the modern world, you need a Chief Operating Officer. Without an operations department in an organisation to co-ordinate multiple activities in a single day and ensure that things are done properly, you will keep pointing fingers at innocent people who are not even part of what you are trying to achieve. For councils to become more efficient, I strongly believe that we need to establish a department of operations so that the people in the department can co-ordinate activities and reduce idle time. It is not right that we keep on condemning and fire-fighting to deal with problems while failing to look at the real causes and solutions to ensure that the CDF can deliver to the expectation of the people.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, in supporting the Motion, I think, I will not be doing justice by not thanking the President of this Republic, Mr Hakainde Hichilema …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: … and his entire Cabinet for this well-thought-out and well-designed programme.

Mr Speaker, this programme is changing the lives of our people in rural areas. Those hon. Members who are probably from Lusaka can easily criticise the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). However, to those of us who come from rural areas, it is a game-changer. No wonder, on many platforms, I have stated that I will be among those who will be called names over the CDF. For the first time in the history of this country and Chama South Constituency in particular, we have procured our own yellow machines. We have a grader that is operating in Chikwa because of the CDF.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mung’andu: As if that is not enough, –

Rev. Katuta interjected.

Mr Mung’andu: Why is the hon. Member for Chienge disrupting my debate? If she is not using the CDF, we are using the CDF and we are receiving it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: I just want to assure the people of Chama South that we are fully embracing the CDF.

Mr Speaker, we are building clinics in areas that never had clinics or where people never thought they would have health posts. I want to assure the people that procurement of more equipment is underway. A 30 tonnes 8 x 8 truck has just arrived in Chama South Constituency and another one is on its way. The council is in the process of procuring a rolling machine. That is real money. Someone whispered to me that the President is likely to increase the CDF next year.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: What else do we need?

Mr Speaker, no wonder, I have stated that I am likely to graduate from a choir master to a prophet over the CDF.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: These are things that are changing the lives of our people. People are receiving grants. As hon. Members of Parliament, when the President is doing something good, let us encourage him by telling him that it is good.

Mr Speaker, I want to tell the people in Chama South, including those in Chasefu and other constituencies, that they will continue receiving grants and loans. Yes, there are implementation challenges because the money came at one time. It is unbelievable. I have always said that it is unbelievable. We received K23 million, then K26 million, and now we are talking about K30 million. Councils were overwhelmed. All we need to do is perfect processes.

Mr Speaker, when Chama Town Council was in the process of procuring more machines, it was told by the Attorney-General in Lusaka that it should submit the contracts at provincial level. So, the council went to submit the contracts in Chipata. Now, the council has been told that the documents have been sent back to Lusaka. These are the issues that need to be looked into. When it comes to implementation of projects, as I said, initially we faced those challenges, but I am confident that we are learning lessons and systems are being put in place to improve delivery systems particularly to do with projects. If you went on the ground, you would find that contractors are not doing a good job. The Government has released the money and people expect to see quality projects delivered, but we have challenges in some constituencies regarding this issue. I know that Isoka is doing extremely well.

Ms Nakaponda: Yes.

Mr Mung’andu: Hon. Nakaponda can agree with me. For the first time, a big hospital is being constructed using the CDF.

Mr Speaker, in Chama South, we want to build a mini-hospital at Chikwa using the CDF next year. Let us talk about other things, not the CDF. The CDF is something that all of us should embrace. I would like to encourage the hon. Minister as well as the President. If what was whispered to me becomes true, rural constituencies will benefit. I do not know what others are going to say when everything is done. This is what we, the hon. Members on the left, should have been doing when we were in power.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Especially when it comes to the CDF.

Ms Sefulo: Kokolapo!

Mr Mung’andu: So, I can be called names, but the truth is the truth.

Mr Speaker, I urge the people of Chama South to analyse things based on what is happening on the ground. Let us compare and contrast. As Member of Parliament for Chama South, I promised the people in my constituency and the people of Zambia that I would remain objective. I will tell the people what I did under my political party, the Patriotic Front (PF). I will also tell them by the end of next year what I will do under this Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: It is from such comparisons that we decide on who to work with and who to work against. This is how the country should move. One should not just do politics for the sake of doing politics but look at what is being done on the ground.

Mr Speaker, I want to assure the people of Chama South that the road from Chikwa to Emusa and from Chifunda to Munyukwa will be worked on because of the procurement of the machinery. Even the Government projects will be worked on. That is the reason we are elected. I also thank the hon. Minister because Kampemba Bridge and Luangwa Bridge are about to be opened. The Chama/Matumbo Road will also open. This is what we want. I appeal to the hon. Minister to continue with the CDF. He has my support. I am supporting him and the President. Projects are happening throughout the country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us make progress. I know, it is a topical issue. I would have loved as many people as possible to debate. The hon. Minister will respond now.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Mr Speaker, by definition, an audit is an inspection of financial statements to determine whether or not the usage of money has been achieved and if there was any misappropriation. I am thankful to the Committee chairman for his report and to the seconder. They highlighted a few concerns as a Committee on the operations of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Mr Speaker, it is only befitting for me to say that overall, it appears that everybody appreciates the programme at hand. As the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, this is our flagship programme, and we have put a lot of effort in it to transform the lives of our citizens. Obviously, it goes without saying, we have had the conversation about teething problems before, as alluded to by both the chairman and the first debater, Hon. B. Mpundu. I appreciate that because the whole essence of the Committee system is to give feedback to the Government on what we need to do better.

 Mr Speaker, some people spoke about the ministerial guidelines. The ministerial guidelines are basically meant to improve the processes and ensure that the aims and objectives of the said programme yield the maximum benefit to our people. The Government has taken note of the concerns of the people. I have also taken note of the concern on the administrative cost for accounting, something that has been echoed by some hon. Members. They said that the administrative cost sometimes gets depleted and does not correlate with the amounts located for community projects. This makes monitoring and evaluation of the projects to not be efficient because people run out of money to implement them maybe in the middle of the fiscal year.

Mr Speaker, Hon. B Mpundu made a correction in the report of your Committee on page 65 about his constituency. I appreciate that. He also talked about bureaucracy in approval of projects. He said that approvals are taking longer than they did when I was the one approving projects. The intention was good. I want to state that, as we made the changes to the guidelines regarding this aspect, we put a caveat that all projects would be deemed approved fourteen days after they were lodged with the approving office, which is the provincial committee. The intention means well. The hon. Member further talked about the harmonisation of community and ministry requirements and gave an example of the Ministry of Health. I can only encourage Hon. B. Mpundu, who has since left the Assembly Chamber, and all other hon. Members with similar challenges, to never wait for the delivery of such a report when challenges are faced along the way. Some of us are privileged to sit in offices. We sit in offices from 0730 hours to 1900 hours sometimes to attend to these very challenges. For instance, I have just learned that monies from the CDF for Nkana Constituency have still not been spent because the constituency has differed with the Ministry of Health over projects. I have learned this now for the first time. Hon. Members should not use this platform to bring out things that ordinarily could be sorted out away from the House because that is what defines how successful the programme may be. Based on the Government’s own assessment tool kit that we have developed, which is the dashboard of the utilisation of the CDF, we could say that these are excuses because the dashboard is very clear on how the funds are being utilised and who is doing well and who is not.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Nyirenda talked about circulars. I appreciate what she said, but circulars are meant for good. She also said that staff from Lundazi come to Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute often. I think, the chairperson was very clear on the aspect of capacity building, which is something that all hon. Members lament. They say that the Government needs to capacitate councils, and Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute was designed for exactly that. I apologise to the hon. Member if it is causing a dislocation back home at the council, and I have taken note. I also take note of the hon. Member’s very kind suggestion to use virtual meetings where possible so that people can sit in their offices. I also take note of her desire for monitoring and evaluation to improve. The hon. Member also talked about the anxiety around the Electronic Government Procurement System (e-GP) and the fact that contracts are awarded to people outside constituencies. Obviously, that is a source of concern for me as Minister because the President has been very clear that we need to utilise local contractors as much as possible in order for resources to percolate local economies. It makes sense. Again, when things come, they speak to the issues that hon. Members lament. Unfortunately, I must say here and now that even us who are in the Government have challenges speaking to what hon. Members lament regarding the e-GP.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Chienge spoke about the rejection of mattresses. Again, that is a conversation we could have had; it did not need to come here. If the provincial committee shot down the request for mattresses, the hon. Member should have come to my office so that we see the validity of that request. She also lamented monitoring and evaluation.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Hamwaata commented on audit challenges. I appreciate that. Hon. Chanda spoke about burn rates and monitoring and evaluation, etcetera. I thank him for appreciating the programme. In his own words, he said, “utayandi achileke.” I can repeat that in bemba, “uyo ushilefwaya afileke” because the intention is good. That means, “he who does not want must leave it.” I think, the general consensus is that the intention of the CDF is okay, and it is our duty as hon. Members of Parliament, as the representatives of the people, to make sure that it works.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Sialubalo talked about the guidelines and the directives. So did my brother, Joseph Munsanje, from Mbabala Constituency. He went further and talked about the disaster component under the CDF and how the Government should expedite and define what forms a disaster so that projects do not have to go through the bureaucracy of the District Disaster Management Committee, which basically eats into the time to respond to disasters. I have taken note of that.

Mr Speaker, I am thankful to Hon. Eng. Daka for his concern on the capacity of councils and failure by councils to create designs for projects to happen. That is a matter that the Government must deal with. He also lamented the directives from the Central Government. I need to inform the hon. Member, we were elected primarily on the campaign promises we made to our people. The hon. Member used the example of chiefs’ palaces. The party that Hon. Eng. Daka belongs to, over a period of ten years, started the construction of fourteen chiefs palaces and did not complete them. When we came into office, we realised that this programme was good and needed to be completed and put aside once and for all. We ramped up the project and completed 110 palaces in one shot so that we can put this project aside and never ever go back to the conversation on chiefs palaces.

Mr Speaker, the other directive we gave is on ambulances. Everyone can appreciate the fact that an ambulance is a life-saving automobile. I do not know what kind of hard convincing hon. Members want in order for them to appreciate the directives that come from the Central Government. The directives are based on what the Government promised the people and what is in the manifesto of the UPND. Nonetheless, we also accept that we belong to a constitutional democracy. The PF Government also campaigned based on certain promises that made it win elections in the past. Those were not the campaign promises of the UPND Government. Unfortunately, when push comes to shove, the UPND Government has been privileged to run the kit or the pace for the country. So, that overrides everything else. Please, accept that because that is how it goes.

Mr Speaker, I thank Hon. Mabeta for the comments about his desire to establish an operations department in order for the management and operations of the CDF to work well. Finally, I took note of the positive things that Hon, Mung’andu said, including the accolades to the President. I share his views. I also heard him say that he has been called names. We have all been called names. He should be strong and soldier on. I particularly liked that he said, “I am able to say what I did during my time when the PF was in office and I am also ready to give a glossary of what I have done now that the UPND is in office.” That will form the basis on which anyone can judge him as a representative of the people.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulunda: Mr Speaker, in winding up the debate, I would like to appreciate the hon. Members who contributed to the debate on the report that I presented to the House.

Mr Speaker, there are only two things that I can say to sum up the report. Before the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) was increased, some people called it a scam. However, today we have a common chorus. The testimony is that the CDF is released to all districts. All the hon. Members in the House have not just heard about the CDF but have seen it work in their constituencies. I can imagine that if the United Party for National Development (UPND) had formed the Government in 2011, I am sure, Zambia would have been a paradise by now.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE PLANNING AND BUDGETING COMMITTEEON THE 2024 MID-YEAR BUDGET PERFORMANCE REPORT

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Planning and Budgeting Committee on the 2024 Mid-Year Budget Performance Report for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 31^st July, 2024.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Nyirenda: Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Chaatila: Mr Speaker, in accordance with Standing Order No. 204(4)(c), your Committee considered the 2024 Mid-Year Budget Performance Report. The report afforded your Committee an opportunity to monitor the implementation as well as evaluate the performance of the 2024 National Budget during the first half of the year. The focus was on the country’s macro-economic fundamentals, fiscal performance and the Budget’s alignment with the Strategic Development Areas (SDAs) of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP).

Mr Speaker, from the outset, the House may wish to note that the mid-year Budget performance was satisfactory, although we faced many challenges. The notable ones include drought, subdued revenue collection, volatility of the exchange rate and the high inflation rate, which is driven by higher maize grain prices and sustained depreciation of the Kwacha against major currencies.

Mr Speaker, let me highlight some few salient issues that we observed as the Committee.

Underperformance of the Constituency Development Fund and the Local Government Equalisation Fund

Mr Speaker, your Committee commends the Government for increasing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) from K28.3 milliontoK30.6 million per constituency as well as the allocation for the Local Government Equalisation Fund (LGEF). However, your Committee noted with concern that during the first half of the year, disbursements to the CDF was 77 per cent, lower than projected. This is attributed to the low absorption capacity and significant unspent balances from the 2023 financial year. These factors may affect the Government’s aspiration of fiscal decentralisation to transfer resources to the local level for effective service delivery. Your Committee acknowledges the efforts that the Government has taken to resolve some of the encumbrances in the administration of the CDF. However, your Committee urges the Government to expedite the implementation of other measures, among them, review of the Constituency Development Fund Act and the accompanying guidelines and the development of the management information system and approval of projects by the Attorney-General’s Office. Your Committee further urges the Government to ensure that measures are put in place to address the bad attitude among some council workers countrywide.

Payment of Arrears to Local Suppliers and Legacy Value Added Tax Refunds

Mr Speaker, your Committee noted that during the period under review, the Government took efforts to dismantle arrears owed to local suppliers by focusing on the risk associated with the debt and amounts owed to the local suppliers. Your Committee noted that domestic debt stood at K88.6 billion as at 31^st March, 2024. This has had a serious negative impact on most of the local businesses and has been exacerbated by the slow pace of dismantling local debt as the Government firstly focused on the higher risk and quantum of the debt. While acknowledging that the arrear-dismantling strategy has been revised, your Committee noted with concern that local businesses are of the view that the Government has not prioritised their needs and is more focused –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1255 hours until 1430 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that your Committee noted with concern that the local businesses are of the view that the Government has not prioritised their needs and is more focused on external creditors at the expense of local businesses. In view of this, your Committee urges the Government to enhance engagements with local businesses. Further, your Committee urges the Government to expedite plans to take up the payment of the backlog of Value Added Tax (VAT) refunds that date as far back as 2013to enable the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) to only handle subsisting VAT refunds.

Undersubscription of Government Bonds and Treasury Bills

Madam Speaker, your Committee noted with concern that the Central Bank experienced an undersubscription on four out of the six bond auctions in 2024.The subscription for Government bonds averaged 89.81 per cent while that of Treasury Bills was 54.56 per cent. Your Committee further noted that general revenues were utilised to refinance maturities on domestic debt due to the underperformance of Government securities auctions. Your Committee is concerned that should the underperformance persist, the continued utilisation of general revenues to refinance maturities will negatively affect Budget implementation and interest cost servicing. In this regard, your Committee urges the Government to put in place measures that will encourage the participation of local investors considering that domestic financing remains a critical avenue for the Government to raise affordable revenue to meet its expenditure needs. Your Committee further urges the Government to review the change in the issuance of security bonds from issuing on a discounted rate to par value and auctioning.

I am confident, Madam Speaker, that the Government will take decisive and progressive action on the recommendations made by your Committee. Your Committee is grateful for your continued support and guidance as it carries out its mandate. This gratitude also extends to the Office of the Clerk.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Nyirenda: Now, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the chance to second the Motion on behalf of the people of Lundazi.

Madam Speaker, I want to state categorically that the mover has moved this Motion ably. I want to appreciate that he has spoken to most of the issues that we had in our Committee meeting. I will only touch on three issues that the mover has not spoken to.

Madam Speaker, the first half of this year has been very challenging, as the mover has already mentioned. It has been challenging in that there was drought. Apart from drought, the exchange rate has been escalating. We have also suffered serious load-shedding and fuel prices have been escalating on a daily basis. Even worse, we have not been able to get a benefit out of our mines. After interactions with some of the witnesses who appeared before the Committee, it was reported that only six out of 6,000 licenced mining companies are tax-compliant. This represents about only 0.01 per cent of the mining companies. We say that Zambia depends on agriculture and mining. However, the indicators for our two major sectors have not done very well. There is a need for Parliament to investigate because only six out of the 6,000 mining companies are tax-compliant. The situation is worrying. It means that Zambia is losing a lot of revenue. There is a need for you Madam Speaker, through your office, to take keen interest. We are wallowing in poverty because 5,977 mines are not paying taxes. The six mining companies that are paying taxes contribute almost 70 per cent of our Budget. We could be in a position to sort out some challenges if we made other mines tax-compliant.

Mr Kambita: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Apologies, hon. Member for Lundazi. There is an indication for a point of order.

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, what is your point of order?

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Order No. 71 of the new Standing Orders of 2024. I would like to know if the hon. Member on the Floor is in order to not give context to the way things are. We have talked about only six mining companies paying taxes. However, she has generalised and said that everybody who got a mining licence, even those who are not operating, are not paying taxes. The hon. Member is sending a wrong message out there, implying that the Government is not paying attention. At the end of the day, people will make inferences from those statements. They will alarm the nation and say that the Government is not collecting taxes. It is better to put things in context.

Madam Speaker, is she in order to not substantiate things the way they are supposed to be in her debate?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Lundazi is seconding the Motion. She is part of the Committee. So, hon. Member for Zambezi East, if you have anything to counter what the hon. Member for Lundazi is saying, take note and indicate to debate. When your time comes to debate, you can counter what the hon. Member is saying, whether it is correct or not.

May the hon. Member for Lundazi continue.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, I am using the exact words that were used by the witnesses we interacted with, and this information is part of the report and the recommendations.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lundazi, you said that fuel prices are escalating every day. I do not know whether that is the correct position.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Maybe, be cautious as you debate. Of course, you know what you discussed in the Committee, but let us put things in context.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, regarding the issue of underperformance of the mobile money transaction levy, according to the Committee’s observation, it was noted that this particular tax underperformed by 88.2 per cent, with collections amounting to only K63.7 million against a mid-year target of K538 million. When the witnesses appeared before the Committee, they raised the issue that they do not know whether it should be the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) or the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) that should handle this component. This is a challenge as we do not know who should be held accountable when we play our oversight role.

Madam Speaker, the third aspect is the provision of financial assistance to the agriculture sector following the severe impact of the drought. It is a fact that Zambia was faced with a very serious drought. Some people who applied for loans delayed to buy inputs because the loans were delayed. The loan procedures took quite long. That resulted in some farmers not being able to plant on time, and they ended up losing the whole crop due to poor rainfall. The recommendation from the Committee was that if it is possible, the Government should cancel all the loans that were given to farmers by banks. Even the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) should zero-rate the loans because most of them were insured. Those who harvested some crops can pay back, but the ones who are in areas that were significantly hit by drought should have some of their loans cancelled so that they can plan for this year and see how they can make up for the loss. That was the request from your Committee.

Madam Speaker, there is an early warning of El Niña. This time, it will not be El Niño. The warning from the Meteorological Department states that there is going to be El Niña. So, we might face floods.

Interruptions

Ms Nyirenda: Anina or EI Nina. Whichever the Niña.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Ms Nyirenda: The Niña are affecting our country.

Madam Speaker, there is a need for us to take precautions. The Ministry of Agriculture should deal with the ministry in charge of the Meteorological Department so that we warn our farmers on what crop varieties to plant, and so that we do not suffer the shame we have suffered, that is, depending on importing maize and other foods for our people to feed on.

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity you have given me on behalf of the good people of Lundazi to be part of the Committee and to interrogate half of what has happened in our nation from the time the Budget was presented.

Madam Speaker, with those few additional remarks, I thank you.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I also want to be on record and add my voice to the debate on the report on the mid-year Budget performance review laid on the Floor by your Committee. I particularly want to thank the able chairperson for tabling the report.

Madam Speaker, the 2024 Budget was formulated with the theme “Unlocking Economic Potential” through enhanced private sector investment, increased productivity and improved public service delivery. These issues must be critically analysed and underlined: increased productivity, enhanced private sector investment as well as improved public service delivery. The discussion going on now is basically asking ourselves as to whether the Budget, mid-way, has performed very well. It is very clear if you read the report, that the 2024 Budget has recorded a very dismal performance mid-way.

Mr Andeleki: Question!

Mr B. Mpundu: This confirms some of the fears I had when the Budget was presented to this august House.I remember coming to this august House and debating the 2024 Budget. I stated why I thought the Budget was not realistic because it did not speak to the aspiration of the Zambian people. It prioritised the interest of foreigners.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr B. Mpundu:  I think, those were my remarks on the 2024 Budget.

Madam Speaker, very clearly, all the key indicators are down mid-way. When you look at the economic growth rate, which was projected at 4.8 per cent, you will see that it has been revised to 2.3 per cent. Okay, those are your reasons, but I am basically stating the facts. The other indicator is inflation. I remember, our friends on the right said that they had moved the inflation rate to a single digit. Now, this report has reported that the inflation rate is averaging 14 per cent from 12 per cent around the same period in 2023. On the performance of the Kwacha, I remember the slogan of the United Party for National Development (UPND), but I do not know what has happened to it. It says “At 1000 hours we are sworn in, at 1400 hours the Kwacha gets to have Christmas.” The Kwacha has performed very badly. It is 35.1 per cent around this period.

Mr Andeleki: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

There are indications for points of order. If we continue like this, we will not be able to finish the report. So, please, just indicate to debate. I want to have more people from the right to debate. I have seen very few people indicate from there. More people from the left have indicated. Can we also have indications from the right?

Hon. Member for Katombola, I will give you an opportunity. So, just indicate.

May the hon. Member continue. 

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, in the quest to rein in inflation, my hon. Colleagues have had to make adjustments to the monetary policy. The result is increased lending rates by banks. If you asked most of your hon. Members who borrowed money, they will say that they now pay through their noses. There are many Zambians today whose properties are being grabbed by banks every day because of the Government’s decision to increase the monetary policy rate, which subsequently increases the lending rates by banks. So, it is important that when we make a decision, we also monitor the effects of that decision. We are punishing our people. Remember, the UPND campaign promise was that it would ensure that lending rates of banks were reduced. Today, the lending rates keep on rising and are almost 28 per cent if not 29 per cent.

Madam Speaker, I am of the view that if the Budget has to perform well, sectors must speak to each other. We had a report from the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, which indicated that we were going to experience the effects of El Nino. That meant we were going to experience drought. Drought meant that our agricultural sector was going to be affected. It meant that our friends on the right should have made decisions to re-align the agriculture sector, starting with the distribution of farming inputs. They should have withdrawn farming inputs from areas that were set to experience serious drought and taken them to areas that would experience favourable rainfall, but our friends did not do that. The end result is the dismal performance of the agriculture sector. Our friends went out to gift foreign multinational companies with tax incentives. The House will remember that we had a heated debate over the decision by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to make mineral royalty deductible on the promise that the mining sector was going to inject capital into the sector. These decisions did not speak to the report by the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment. Today, the mining sector is giving excuses. There is no production going on in the mining sector because of the energy crisis. That is why I insist that for the Budget to perform well, we must allow different sectors to speak to each other. When the Government is making the decision to give incentives to conglomerates, it should be aware that at some point, there will be a disaster. How many times have we lamented this matter? The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has paid a deaf ear to the matter.

Madam Speaker, how could the hon. Minister make the decision to forgo the US$1 billion in taxes that a mine owed and allow it to pay only US$23 million? That has affected the performance of the currency. The performance of the currency today is based on the demand for the Dollar against the dwindling availability of the Dollar. How does he expect the Kwacha to perform favourably if he keeps gifting people, foregoing US$1 billion and collecting only US$23 billion? How does he expect the currency to perform very well when money is allowed to be syphoned off, like in the case of First Quantum Minerals (FQM) Limited, in which US$2.5 billion was left to go to Panama? How does he expect our currency to perform?

Madam Speaker, we lament that drought hit us and that is the reason we are here. It is the reckless decisions we are making that are making us be vulnerable as we are. When we come here, we are not enemies. We are only foretelling what may happen. How many times did we on the left talk about the need to not sell our maize? Today, we expect the Budget to perform very well. These are things that we must be frank –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Katombola, are you ready to debate?

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Speaker, I am not debating. The hon. Member was trying to mislead the nation. So, I was trying to correct the impression he was making. He created the impression that –

Madam Speaker: Sorry, so are you debating, hon. Member?

Mr Andeleki: No. I am raising a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 71.

Madam Speaker: What is the point of order?

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, thank you for according me an opportunity to raise a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 71 on relevance of debate, on behalf of the people of Katombola Constituency.

Madam Speaker, was the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana in order to mislead the nation that the Budget of the New Dawn Government has been failing? Was he in order to state that, when he knows that a disaster has been declared in the country? He knows very well that we had drought. Was he in order to debate in the manner that he debated, thereby misleading the whole nation that the Budget has failed?

Madam Speaker: I think that is the opinion of the hon. Member for Nkana. That is how he debated. Hon. Members, let us be ready to counter debate. When you are debating, there are those for the Motion and those against it. Of course, it does not mean that we just have to debate anyhow. First of all, the debate should be factual and verifiable. So, as you debate, bear in mind the Standing Order that requires you to be factual. As I said, let us not interject through Standing Orders in order to counter another point of view that we are not comfortable with. Let us come up with our own facts. You are able to debate. So, you can counter the assertions and put the people of Zambia at peace and they will have a balanced view of the whole situation. Let members of the public out there judge between who is telling the truth and who is not telling the truth.

Mr B. Mpundu: Aishibafye ama concepts uyo.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Nkana!

That is the problem with you, also.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: You have debated. I am sure, you have exhausted your time. So, I expect you to remain silent as others debate, so that we hear other people’s views.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity you have given me to debate the report of your Committee on Planning and Budgeting. The report informs the nation on how the Budget has performed for the past six months of 2024.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I would like to state that I support the report of your Committee. Allow me to make this comment. When the Opposition hon. Members are debating a Motion such as this one, you would think the walls of Jericho are falling somewhere yet they are not. That is why we come here to put the record straight. Sometimes, I have been accused of trying to turn this House into a lecture hall. However, when people just speak from without, you need to inform them of the substance so that they understand. People out there need the correct information. They are being fed wrong information.

Madam Speaker, firstly, we need to understand what the National Budget is. We sat here in the House to come up with the National Budget that is being implemented this year. Of course, it was passed into law. The National Budget has estimates. Look at the heading of the Bill that comes here. What is it called?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure.

Madam Speaker, if they are estimates, it means we anticipate what will happen, what revenue we shall collect and what we shall spend it on. This is what the Budget is all about. So, now here we are. Half of the year has passed and we are reviewing what we had estimated and what has come out of what we estimated. Now, the Committee looked into the issues in the Budget and brought in the stakeholders to comment on them. The Committee has told us that at the time we made the estimates, we did not envisage that we were going to have drought. Therefore, there are variances, and these variances emanate from the unfortunate false majeure. It is an act of God that has made us to be where we are. Our laws are not without any remedies. Our laws provide safety cuts. I might not state the actual article here, but the Constitution empowers the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to come here and present a Supplementary Budget. Not too long, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was here to present a Supplementary Budget, which gives us a window to make adjustments, looking at the situation obtaining on the ground. That is the reason the report is here. I will itemise certain things that were not in sight at the time we made the Budget. One is drought. The second one is the debt mountain that the very people who are standing here put us into. We were still involved in negotiations on how to tackle the problem that the previous Government brought on all of us. Yet they come here and stand tall, trying to hoodwink people who may not understand why the Budget is not performing. We ended up arriving at a restructuring programme as the official debtors. We are now clear on how much we need to pay.

Interruptions

Mr Kambita: I am putting it in simple language so that they understand.

Mr Jamba: Teach them.

Mr Kambita: We now know how much the debt is and how much we should pay.

Madam Speaker, when you look at the report of your Committee, you will see that 66 per cent of the Budget is going to the obvious things we need to pay for; salaries and debts, shrinking the fiscal space to only 33 per cent left to spend on other issues, including social spending. The fiscal space has been shrunk because of the behaviour of the Patriotic Front (PF) regime yesteryear.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: We need to understand this and the public needs to know this.

Madam Speaker, the fiscal space has shrunk because of those people. We are now correcting the situation, but they are the same ones standing on a mountain making noise and making us look like we do not know what we are doing. We know what we are doing. In fact, now there is light at the end of the tunnel because we are able to pay the debt that they defaulted on around 2020 or 2021. Now, we are able to pay the debt and salaries. Each constituency is getting the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) annually, according to the Budget. We are also fulfilling obligations like paying salaries for public servants. Tell me, which institution to date is failing to get its funding as prescribed in the Budget? Tell me, if you have any. I have not heard any of them say that maybe the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR) or a particular ministry did not get the money and so they have failed to do this or that. That is what is known as budget credibility. If you have heard of budget credibility or think it is just an animal, that is what it is. Budget credibility is doing exactly what you said you would do. That is the character of the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government.

Madam Speaker, I thought I should just keep the record straight so that those people on the left understand. They will come here to debate even after I have sat down. You will hear many of them ranting.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ranting?

Mr Kabuswe: Yes!

Mr Kambita: I withdraw the word “ranting” and replace it with, “You will hear them debating negatively just to try and salvage some relevance from the people who might not know what is going on here.” The truth of the matter is that we are where we are because of their behaviour. We are correcting the situation. So, they should not despair. A situation like the drought we have faced this year can be managed by a responsible Government. Look at how we have made efforts to feed the nation. The Social Cash Transfer amount has been increased. There is the Food for Work programme now. That money is going to the beneficiaries; it is not hearsay. Please, hon. Members of Parliament, even those from the Opposition constituencies, get involved to ensure that our people are fed. These are the Government programmes to adjust the situation so that the standard of living is maintained. 

Madam Speaker, I thought I should make those things very clear so that the people out there hear them, and so that going forward, no one will believe whatever the people on the left will say.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: There are so many indications. So, the only way we can have all the hon. Members who have indicated to debate is if we restrict the time. So, I suggest that you debate for four minutes and not repeat yourselves. Hon. Members are repeating themselves, but repetition is not allowed by our Standing Orders. So, if an hon. Member has debated on a particular issue, there is no need to repeat. Hon. Members, debate for four minutes, please.

The hon. Member for Kamfinsa may proceed.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, thank you very much –

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

There is an indication for a point of order.

Hon. Member for Lumezi, that will be the last point of order. We need to make progress. What is your point of order?

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you sincerely. I raise this very important point of order on Her Honour the Vice-President pursuant to Standing Order No. 43(d).

Madam Speaker, can you imagine that this meeting is coming to an end, but I have not been attended to (Inaudible). She has not congratulated me.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, is she in order to not take judicial notice that the sitting has come to an end with no suspension and no letters from your office for me, but she cannot congratulate me?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, that confirms that the hon. Member for Lumezi is grown up now. He is a man.

Hon. Member for Lumezi, please, do not worry. We still have tomorrow. So, Her Honour the Vice-President might just say something.

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, allow me once again to thank the chairperson of your Committee, although I cannot see him in the House. I am sure, he will follow the comments that I will deliver. May I also thank the vice-chairperson of your Committee, Hon. Nyirenda from Lundazi, for the report that she has presented.

Madam Speaker, I will try as much as possible to speak to the report. I know very well that the whole essence of discussing the report today is to review how the Budget has performed. I do not think we need to educate each other on what the Budget is at this stage, because we have all discharged the duty of approving it.

Madam Speaker, I will quickly take you to the report that has been submitted. Like everyone has indicated, there are indicators that we must discuss. If we are going to discuss the National Budget and whether it has performed well or not, it is critical that we look at the indicators. I want to suggest to the chairperson of your Committee that in the next report, there must be a page that should give us a summary of the indicators. I have seen the way the report has been written. It has fifteen pages. We must make the reports easy to understand and interpret so that even when we circulate them to the public, someone should quickly go to one page and be able to pick out the indicators. What are the indicators? The report has issues to do with inflation, the exchange rate and the interest rate. We also have a very critical indicator that is critical to today’s discussion, which is copper production. For those who have not read the report, and for the public who are tuned into this conversation, our current copper production as at this month is 318,000 metric tonnes, meaning that even if we pushed the mining sector to perform better, we are not going to achieve last year’s target of 680,000 metric tonnes. That is according to this report. If last year in 2023 we only managed to produce 680,000 metric tonnes of copper, and this year half way we are at 310,000 metric tonnes, we are not going to achieve last year’s target. Even if we multiplied 318,000 metric tonnes by two, for the sake of argument, we are still not going to achieve last year’s target. What am I trying to say? Copper production is a very critical indicator of the performance of our economy because it is the copper that we produce and export that allows us to earn enough foreign exchange and controls so many other aspects that need to be regulated. According to the report, copper production is very low. For those who have not read the report, I will quickly refer you to page 4 under the sub-title “Copper Prices and Copper Production.” I want to speak facts so that as we end this conversation, each one will be able to pick out what we need to do to correct these challenges. Copper production is low. I do recall that when I joined as a new hon. Member of Parliament, there was a Budget Speech delivered by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. In that Budget Speech, the hon. Minister stated that Zambia was going to begin producing 3 million tonnes of copper over a period of ten years. Looking at that target, we have only achieved 318, 000 metric tonnes of copper, but our target is 3 million metric tonnes per annum. I do not know anyone seated here who still believes in that target. I do not know how many of us seated here still believe that we can achieve 3 million metric tonnes of copper, given what we are doing at the moment. Given the fact that we need to give the mining sector the correct amount of energy to produce copper, and the challenges that we have in the energy sector, the picture does not look very positive. I want to pose a challenge to the hon. Minister responsible for finance and national planning, the hon. Minister of Energy, and the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. What we rely on is our mining sector. We are not producing enough copper. I hope that when the hon. Minister is given the opportunity to respond to the observations we are making, the issue of how we should move forward will be discussed.

Madam Speaker, due to the limited time, I end here. I support this report because it has reviewed a serious challenge we have of under-production of copper.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this important report.

Madam Speaker, the challenges that our economy is facing have all been well-articulated by those who have spoken before me. I have always told myself that the natural challenges we have, like drought, that have affected our economy, particularly the energy sector and the agriculture sector, do not only affect us but the region. Many times, we from the east, when a calamity befalls a village in the east, everyone, regardless of their differences, comes and ask what happened.

Madam Speaker, as I sit here, I find it very difficult because we all know that we are being affected by a thing that is not under any one’s control. We point at each other and say that someone who is in a position has failed. The issue is that we are where we are because of something beyond us. In the current situation, it is not easy to see an economy continue being managed the way it is being managed. So, I salute the Government.

Laughter

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Why do I say so? The factors affecting our region and the world have been well-articulated. However, the Government is able to release the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). That is in the report on page 10.

Madam Speaker, the issue that has been highlighted in the report is not the failure to release resources but the absorption rate. That is the challenge. It means that the country’s finances are being managed by credible people. I salute the hon. Minister because there is credibility in the management of the Budget relative to the situation we are facing. Being political and partisan when we know what affects us will not help us. When we talk, we should talk with credibility and wisdom. No one can manage what has befallen the country. Let us pray to God that we come out of it. We should give credit where it is due.

Madam Speaker, the release of the Local Government Equalisation Fund (LGEF) has brought credibility and stability to the local government system. Before this Government, there used to be Budget overruns. I have not seen a Budget overrun. I have seen credibility. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has come to the House and told us how much money the Government has been able to collect. However, because of the factors I have highlighted here, which are affecting our economy, let us adjust or vary our Budget. We have done that. When I worked in the local government, we used to have budget reviews every month and quarterly. Why do we have budget reviews? I do not want to be a lecturer, but we have budget reviews because budgets are estimates. We carry out budget reviews to see where we are and the factors affecting us. When we politicise things that we know are affecting us, we are not fair to ourselves and the country. We are leaders. What is it that has befallen the country, and how is the country moving? I commend the Government for managing the situation. We could have had work stoppages in the country but we did not. So, we should thank the Government. The Government could have failed to release the CDF, but we are enjoying it despite the challenges. The hon. Minister has done very well to come and show us the picture that, yes, in the mid-term we have not performed according to expectations. Where we are going, at the end of the year, how will the review be? We once had a wage freeze in a previous Government. A previous Government borrowed millions and declared a wage freeze. So, it is prudent that we appreciate what is happening now. I have never seen a Government recruit 30,000 teachers during hard times, but this Government has done that. We should clap for that.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: The Government has continued recruiting men and women in uniform and paying them every month despite the challenges.

Madam Speaker, what we should be saying is, if we have a conducive environment –

Interruptions

Mr Nyambose: Listen. The wise are speaking, eh!

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Indeed, hon. Members, let us pay attention. There is too much heckling.

Mr Nyambose: Exactly, Madam Speaker, especially when the wise are on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, it is not easy to continue running a Government despite the challenges. One time, your Committee was privileged to visit Tanzania. Some of my hon. Colleagues who went to Tanzania are here. We went to a service station. When we bought fuel for the Yango taxi, we produced a K100. I do not want to mention my friends who were there, but we bought 3 litres of fuel from the K100. I asked my hon. Colleagues, is it like in Zambia?

Interruptions

Mr Nyambose: They are here. How much was it per litre?

Hon. Government Members: K33!

Mr Nyambose: What came to mind is that, what we are –

Interruptions

Mr Nyambose: I am telling you facts. That is the situation –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Members could be wondering whether the Zambian Kwacha can be used to buy items in a foreign country.

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, I mean K100 equivalent.

Madam Speaker: Okay. Yes, that is better.

Mr Nyambose: Even now, K100 will buy you three litres of fuel in Tanzania. I do not want to get into the technicalities of what happens in other countries. The fact is, when you point at a person and say that he or she is doing wrong, four fingers point back at you. Check the prices in the region for yourselves and compare. What is happening? I know, we can do better as a country, but we should give credit where it is due. It is not easy to sustain the economy of the country when we are facing challenges.

Madam Speaker, one of my hon. Colleagues talked about the mining sector. We know what has been happening in that sector. In my language we say, “Konzakapansi, kuti kapa mwamba ka zike.” Everyone knows that the mining companies were down. Now, we are trying to revive them so that we can earn foreign exchange to grow our economy. That is what we should do as a country,

Madam Speaker, with those remarks, I support the report. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should continue being prudent. He has brought credibility to this country and to the economy.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: There is an indication to debate from the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Would you like to debate now or later?

Eng. Milupi: Later, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Sinda may debate.

Mr M. Tembo: Madam Speaker, I have not indicated. I will debate later.

Laughter

Mr Nyambose: Quality!

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Mpika may debate.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, the role of the Government is to provide services to the Zambian people and to better their lives. When we look at the Budget performance review, what should come to mind is, to what level has the Budget reduced poverty in our country? Poverty reduction must be at the centre of the debate. The Zambia Statistics Agency (Zamstats) reports that 54.4 per cent of our people live in abject poverty. That is unacceptable in a country that is known as the largest producer of copper and is rich in minerals. The issue here is, how have our people benefitted from the 2024 Budget? When we try to answer that question, we need to look at the numbers. I know, people have talked about drought. When we live on earth, which is not ours, we should expect calamities.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: God gave us brains for us to deal with calamities as they find us.

Madam Speaker, how are we dealing with the drought situation so that our people do not find themselves in abject poverty? That is the question. We are still borrowing. One would expect the money we are borrowing to be invested in manufacturing. We are told on page 8 of the report that the manufacturing output in Zambia has decreased. At a time when Grade 12s in Mpika are expecting jobs in industries, we have none. At a time when Grade 12s in Chinsali are expecting jobs, we have none because there is no investment in manufacturing. If we invested in manufacturing, we would export some of the things we produce, and we would have a lot of export earnings, thereby strengthening our Kwacha, which is trading at about K26.5 against the Dollar today.

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the agricultural sector. This Government inherited 1 million farmers on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). Today the number is still the same. So, 20 million Zambians depend on 1 million farmers to produce food yet the population keeps on increasing. We have land in Muchinga Province where potatoes and tomatoes can be produced, but we do not have an industry to make tomato sauce. We import tomato sauce like Tabasco from America; some of you even like it so much. We do not have investment in manufacturing. The issue of jobs and the issue of poverty reduction must be at the centre of our discussion. For as long as our people are wallowing in abject poverty, any conversation is meaningless because our people are suffering.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe: Hammer!

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Before we proceed, hon. Member for Mpika, you said in your debate that Zambia is the biggest producer of copper in Africa. I do not think that your statistics are correct. The highest producer is the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), definitely not Zambia. So, please, as you debate, be factual.

Mr Mabeta: Madam Speaker, due to limited time, I will restrict my debate to the mining sector. We know very well that Zambia was born out of copper mining in the 1900s.When we as the United Party for National Development (UPND) came into Government, we found that two major mines, that is, Mopani Copper Mines Plc and Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM), which everyone here knows, which give us foreign exchange, were down. The KCM was locked in the courts and Mopani Copper Mines Plc had a debt of US$1.5 billion. President Hakainde Hichilema, through his negotiating team, which includes the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, had to engage Glencore to reduce that bill from US$1.5 billion to only US$400 million. That enabled Mopani Copper Mines Plc to have a life line of an investor, who is now pumping money into the mine. If the Patriotic Front (PF) Government had not committed US$1.5 billion to that mine, copper production would not have reduced. The PF Government grabbed KCM from Vedanta Resources. The mine had serious operational problems that even today, the company is still paying contractors and suppliers US$245 million –

Interruptions

Mr Mabeta: I am talking about the economy. Thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Stick to the report.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member is responding to what the hon. Members debated.

Mr Mabeta: Yes.

Madam Speaker, KCM, the largest producer of copper, was completely shut down because of the PF Government liquidator who made that company a cash cow. He got K600 million from the company account and put it in his personal fixed account and it earned K14 million. Then he put back the K600 million into the KCM account, thereby walking away with K14 million while the company’s contractors remained unpaid. Honestly, how do we expect a mine to grow and produce more copper when a liquidator is busy turning the company into a cash cow? Through the leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema, today the contractors are about to be paid US$245 million. When the contractors are paid, obviously, they will be motivated to work more and supply more to the mine. In return, copper production will go up.

Madam Speaker, let me look at our economic roads, such as the Lusaka/Ndola Road. For us from the Copperbelt, there is no road there. How do you expect the economy to grow when the road linking the two biggest provinces is non-existent? I want to give the Zambian people hope. The road is now in shape. The contractor is working ahead of schedule. The travel time between the two provinces will be reduced when the road is completed. My friends from the Copperbelt will be able to travel safely without the risk of accidents. That is how you rebuild the economy. I want to assure the Zambian people that we are on the right trajectory. Uwakwensha ubushiku bamutasha lilya bwacha. Nombalinefye bwalacha.

Interruptions

Mr Mabeta: It means, whoever struggles with you in the night, in the morning, you will appreciate what they did.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us try to listen in silence.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr A. Banda (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. May I also thank the chairperson and vice-chairperson of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, I will be brief and concise since I have only four minutes to debate. I will not touch on what my hon. Colleagues have already touched. I will only touch on issues that concern small and medium enterprises (SMEs) that are supplying Mopani Copper Mines Plc and Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM). I will look at the low collection of Income Tax and Company Tax. There is a very nice phrase in the Committee’s report that says, “increased operational cost due to insufficient energy supply.” This is the excuse that mining companies are getting away with in order not to pay company tax. Unfortunately, the same statement cannot apply to a manufacturer of bolts and nuts, who also depends on energy to produce those items to supply the mines. The Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) is forcing companies to pay taxes on money that they have not earned. They are disputing with accounts and estimating what companies should pay and the companies are forced to pay what they should pay. I believe that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If the energy crisis is an excuse for the mining companies, it should also be an excuse for the supplier of the mining companies that manufacture bolts and nuts or any other products that depend on energy. Mining companies cannot get away with energy coming from Kariba Dam. Dangote does not get power from ZESCO Limited. It generates its own power and gives the surplus power to the Copperbelt Energy Corporation (CEC). This is what we want to see from mining companies. They are supposed to invest in energy production. Let them make their own energy and give the surplus to the Government so that load-shedding can end.

Madam Speaker, there is another wonderful statement from your Committee’s report, which says, “effectiveness of strategy to enhance tax mobilisation.” It goes on to say, “implemented various strategies to improve tax administration and broaden the tax base.” This is a very nice statement, but look at how the ZRA mobilised revenue from poor SMEs, especially the ones that supplied Mopani Copper Mines Plc and KCM in the past year. Their accounts are being garnished. They are being charged interest and penalties, but the same contractors and suppliers are owed Value Added Tax (VAT)from as far back as 2015 or 2016. The VAT refunds do not gain any interest at the end of the day. So, whenever the companies are paid VAT refunds, they are paid without interest. The people from the Copperbelt asked me to beg the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to at least allow them to enjoy the tax amnesty that others did before Mopani Copper Mines Plc and KCM started paying them. The SMEs have liabilities not because they did not want to settle the tax but simply because they were not paid by the mining companies. So, now that they have been paid, their money has been garnished and they have been left with zero. They are willing to offset the payments owed to the ZRA. They are asking the hon. Minister to look at getting rid of the interest and the penalties and allow them to only pay the liabilities or what stands unpaid within a reasonable time.

Madam Speaker, the depreciation of our currency is also dependent upon how much foreign exchange the mining companies bring in. This is the time that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should consider letting Zambia join the Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa (BRICS). There is an opportunity for African countries to start trading in their own currencies. That will help us not to depend on foreign exchange. I know, the hon. Minister may not want the country to join BRICS obviously because of dollarisation, but joining BRICS could help us to strengthen our own currency and allow us to trade freely.

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. I know that the hon. Member for Nkana did not hear anything.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: And the hon. Member for Chipili.

Laughter

Let us go to the hon. Member for Mongu Central as I try to balance the debate.

Mr Amutike (Mongu Central): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the chance to debate the report on behalf of the people of Mongu Central.

Madam Speaker, I do not know why people want to complicate things in this House. When we are talking about the Budget, we are simply talking about income and expenditure.

Interruptions

Mr Amutike: When we are talking about Budget credibility –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us listen to the debate.

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, I was saying, when we are talking about the Budget, we are just analysing what the Government budgeted and what it has done with the money halfway through the year. When we are talking about Budget credibility, we are reviewing whether or not the Government has been able to fulfil its commitment. It is as simple as that. It is about income and expenditure. Has the Government been able to fulfil its commitment? The answer is yes. No civil servant has not been able to receive his or her salary on a monthly basis. When we compare the money collected by the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) last year with what it has collected halfway through this year, we see that it has collected more money than it did the past year by more than US$65 billion.

Madam Speaker, concerning the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), there is no single constituency that has not received its CDF every year. The mining sector is booming because the Government has managed all the economic indicators. The inflation rate in 2021 stood at 22 per cent when the United Party for National Development (UPND) took over from the Patriotic Front (PF). The PF Government left the inflation rate at 22 per cent. The rate of inflation under the New Dawn Government is currently hovering around 10.5 per cent and 11.5 per cent. That is proper credibility. That is what we mean by Budget credibility. Teachers were recruited and are receiving their salaries. The Government is recruiting health workers in 2024 just as it promised. It has fulfilled the promise. In fact, it has outperformed. The Government brought the Supplementary Budget to the House, which is cushioning against drought and hunger. A sum of K8 billion in the Supplementary Budget will be used to address the drought situation. Out of that amount, K2 billion is for the Cash for Work programme. Is that not outperformance? The Government has outperformed despite the drought that happened. That is what we mean by Budget credibility. It simply means that the Government has been able to fulfill the things that it said it was going to do. Has the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning done that? The answer is yes. Has the hon. Minister been able to pay the CDF as he promised? The answer is yes. Has he been able to pay salaries on time? The answer is yes. So, what are you talking about when you talk about Budget credibility? Where is the problem? The Government has delivered. We have always said, this is a methodical Government, and it is going to do things in a meticulous way. Despite the problems that the country is facing, the Budget is still performing well. That is what the Government is doing. That is what the hon. Minister has done. We should not be talking about things that are not related to income and expenditure because that is going off track. We should stick to what the Budget has done. As far as we are concerned, the hon. Minister has done very well on all the economic indicators.

Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for giving me the chance to debate on behalf of the people of Mongu Central.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang'andu): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me the chance to also make a few comments on the Motion ably moved by Hon. Chaatila, the chairperson of the Committee on Planning and Budget and ably seconded by the hon. Member for Lundazi Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the report under consideration has highlighted the mid-year performance of the 2024 Budget and has revealed certain challenges. I sympathise with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning because he has to deal with these challenges. The mover of the Motion has bemoaned the poor performance of Government securities. A week ago, the House looked at the supplementary estimates that were brought by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, and this matter was highlighted. When the hon. Minister brought the 2024 Budget, he also brought the Annual Borrowing Plan, in which he projected to borrow about K16. 3 billion through Treasury Bills and securities. Now, they have not performed according to his expectations.

Madam Speaker, the mover of the Motion also bemoaned the dismantling of debt and how our local suppliers have been disadvantaged. These matters are related because if there is no liquidity in the economy, how do you expect Government securities to perform well? People have no money. So, it is important that the Government prioritises the dismantling of local arrears so that we can have liquidity in the economy. What is happening is – 

Madam Speaker, first of all, I do not know what is happening to my time. According to the Standing Orders, I do not know if we have suspended the time –

Madam Speaker: I said that hon. Members should debate for four minutes because we have –

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we have not suspended the Standing Orders.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, you were in the House. I have the discretion to allow all hon. Members to debate.

Mr Kampyongo: No. Others had eight minutes to debate.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: You were not in the House?

Mr Kampyongo: No. I was here. I have seen hon. Members debate for eight minutes.

Madam Speaker: No. We changed that because of the number of hon. Members who indicated to debate.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we will not do justice to such matters.

Madam Speaker: Continue with your debate, hon. Member.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I urge the hon. Minister to ensure that there is money in the economy by paying local suppliers so that people can buy Treasury Bills. Now, he is under pressure. He has to go to commercial banks to borrow an extra K6 billion. That will crowd out the private sector, which is supposed to contribute to the revenue basket of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and help it meet its revenue target. Most Zambian companies are not meeting their production targets due to a number of challenges such as the exchange rate. People who import raw materials cannot plan because the volatility of the exchange rate is working against them. Further, the prices of fuel are affecting production. That is before we even talk about load-shedding. So, the megawatts that the Government promised to recall should be recalled. This is the time to do it. The contracts that the Government has with the countries it supplies power should have force majeure clauses. This is the time to invoke those clauses so that we support Zambian companies to ramp up production and enable them to contribute to the revenue basket that the country needs.

Madam Speaker, the wage Bill has been talked about. I think, it is becoming unsustainable and the hon. Minister knows. The Government cannot create employment in the public sector. Employment can only be created in the private sector. As we know, the public sector has limitations. If the wage Bill that the hon. Minister has to deal with goes up, I do not know how much he will –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, your time is up, but if you are willing –

Mr Kampyongo: Very reluctantly, I oblige, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let me indicate something. If you want to speak for another four minutes, we will skip the hon. Member for Chilubi. So, you can speak, but on condition that the hon. Member for Chilubi will be skipped.

Mr Kampyongo: My young brother, let us agree.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: I will speak for two minutes and leave the two minutes for him, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu: Okay. Babapela. Ebu CEO ubu.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I was saying, I suggest to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that it is time for the Government to revisit some decisions that have been made in order to address the challenges that the country is encountering. Is it still viable for the Government to continue importing finished products of fuel? These are the questions we should be asking because importing finished products of fuel means that the hon. Minister has to find dollars all the time in order to ensure that the supply of fuel is not disrupted. Where will the dollars come from, when we are hearing that the production of copper has gone down and we are not getting so much foreign exchange from the traditional export of copper?

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has the challenge of importing maize. We should have had maize, but now it is a challenge for him to start importing maize because he will need the same foreign exchange. How are we going to stabilise the exchange rate in such a situation? So, we need to start revisiting some decisions that have been made, and one of them is relooking at the aspect of importing finished products of fuel. The second one is the revisiting of all the contracts on the power that we are exporting. Like I said, we must have clauses in those contracts that say that when the country needs power, we cannot prioritise production in other countries, when our companies are struggling to produce and cannot give revenue to the Government because they do not have enough power. My hon. Colleagues said that people have been employed. Yes, it is good for people to be employed. However, let us not cheat ourselves here.The hon. Minister should be sincere with all of us that the moment he starts increasing the budget for personal emoluments beyond the percentage we are grappling with now, it will be very difficult for him to have money for other sectors such as social safety nets. That money is required now because there will be hunger in many areas due to drought.

Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleague spoke about the farming season. Last year, I lamented that the Ministry of Agriculture must procure farming inputs for our farmers in good time, and take into account the weather patterns of the country when distributing the farming inputs. Let us avoid what transpired last year and the previous farming season. Our farmers in areas where rainfall is guaranteed had to share farming inputs in medas. We complained here. If we will not produce enough to guarantee food security, I think, we shall not have enough food. Tomorrow, we are hosting someone. Maybe, we expect a few metric tonnes of grain from his country. I saw Her Honour receive 1,000 metric tonnes.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I think that is not a good way to debate. Tomorrow, we are hosting somebody with very high-ranking. Please, withdraw that statement. It is not welcome. 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, what I am saying is not in bad taste. It is not negativity. I withdraw. We shall debate when the visitor addresses us. What I am emphasising is that Her Honour the Vice-President –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Kampyongo: Insala nindiminwa.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Your time is up.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Tenkulilwa iyo. Do not take pride in receiving donations.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, when we are debating economic matters, we should not debate in abstract. We should understand economic fundamentals. Where are we coming from? Why are we where we are? What measures are being taken to get out of where we are? Are they the correct measures? Those are the questions we should be interrogating or asking ourselves.

Madam Speaker, the Gini coefficient of a country is the measure of inequality. Someone is saying, “Ati?” The Gini coefficient is an economic term. Economists like myself and Dr Musokotwane and I will tell you –  

Interruptions

Mr Fube interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Members, allow the hon. Member for Chama South to debate. 

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mung’andu: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, economists will tell you that a lower Gini coefficient of about 0.3 to 0.4 means that there is good distribution of income within a country. Check the statistics for the past ten to twenty years. They show that the Gini coefficient was about 0.5 to 0.6, which simply means, the measure of inequality was not okay. 

Madam Speaker, the impact of the drought is not something we should politicise because it is multi-faceted. We have challenges with power generation and it has had multiple impacts on our small-scale traders, such as welders, salon operators and many others. It has also had an impact on food security. Physiological needs are always a priority for people who think well. The President has made physiological needs, meaning food, the priority. We could not have sat here if we were hungry. As human beings, we need food. These are not things that we should politicise. As Opposition hon. Members, we should be giving the Government the best alternatives for the situation. What can we do to make it better? We should not just say that the Government has failed. What would you have done to make things better? 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: I argue that the measures that the Government has taken are the measures that we started but did not finish for various reasons. I know, because of time constraints, I will not go into details. We started whatever the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is undertaking concerning the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and debt restructuring. We hit a wall but our hon. Colleagues have achieved the debt restructuring.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, we need production in the mining sector. Without production, we will talk and talk but we will not build our economy. What has the Government done to increase production?  We have been told that more mines are being opened.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Which ones?

Mr Mung’andu: My concern is the figures.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Chisopa stood near the door.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mkushi South, you are standing near the door. What is happening? 

Mr Chisopa resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member for Chama South continue.

Mr Mung’andu:  Madam Speaker, unfortunately, because of time constraints, I cannot go on. I wanted to explain more. On the mines, in summary–

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Mitete has indicated that he has volunteered to give his four minutes to you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I have read the report. So, I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister a point. According to the figures, there is lower production in the mining sector. However, on the export side, I see an improvement. So, there is a need to reconcile the two. 

Hon. Opposition Members: How?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Why is the output declining but not the export? If you check the mineral royalty, you will see that it has improved revenue to the Treasury. This is what the report is saying.

Mr B. Mpundu: Where? Which page?

Mr Mung’andu: Check the report. I cannot refer you to the page, but it is there. I will give it to you.

Mr Nyambose: Allow him to debate.

Mr Mung’andu:  Madam Speaker, we are where we are in terms of performance – let us face the reality and tell the people of Zambia the truth. That is the only way we will reconcile with ourselves. In my opinion, that is the only way we will be realistic as individuals and build better friendships. It is unfair to start politicking when we know that some problems we are going through as a country are historical.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: We know that the country was highly indebted. We, as the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, defaulted on the debt.

Hon. Opposition Members: COVID-19!

Mr Mung’andu: The Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) came later. We did not default because of COVID-19. We defaulted because there was no money.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, in my constituency, people wanted feeder roads to be worked on. Why were they not worked on? As the previous Government, we cancelled all projects that were below 80 per cent. Why were they cancelled? Is it the New Dawn Government that cancelled them? The answer is no. It is our Government that cancelled them. We did that because there was no money. How do we now ensure that the economy gets back on track? Some innovative measures have been implemented. Already, we are talking of nickel being produced for the very first time in our country in the North-Western Province. We need to start tracking production there and ensure that it brings revenue to our Treasury. There is time for politics and time for all of us to come together. I believe this is the time for all of us to come together and find solutions to our challenges. 

Madam Speaker, the issue of hunger and drought has impacted us because 60 per cent of our population depend on agriculture. Check the statistics. Very few people are in formal employment.  The majority of our people depend on agriculture. For the first time, more than half of the country did not receive rainfall or produce anything. That means people’s income has dwindled. I do not want to go into macro-economics. The aggregate income of the nation, which forms the gross domestic product (GDP), is very poor. Check the economic statistics globally. There is no economy that is doing fine. Check the figures worldwide. How special are we that we can do better? We had drought and huge debt. When we are debating, we should be showing how best we can do better than the Government is doing. I urge the hon. Minister to remain on his trajectory. We will judge him maybe after four, five or six years when the mining companies start giving fruits. When the mining companies we have given incentives start producing but we do not get enough money from them, only then can we judge that what the hon. Minister is doing is wrong.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to thank my hon. Colleague, the chairperson of the Committee on Planning and Budgeting. Hon. Chaatila. Let me also thank my hon. Colleague, the previous debater, for some of the issues he has brought to the attention of the House. Let me also take this opportunity to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I understand what he is going through. People who understand planning and finance face what is imperative, and what is very important is fiscal discipline. When you have fiscal discipline, you apply finances in a prudent manner.

Madam Speaker, if you have K1million and it can build ten houses, you are not going to start building 1,000 houses because you have a limited budget. The budget should correlate with what you want to do. I have looked at the measures that are being taken by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that our resources are managed prudently or properly. Page 8 of the report has highlighted the performance of the mining, manufacturing, agriculture and tourism sectors. These sectors are in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) and they have been adversely affected by drought. That is why I am saying, I sympathise with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning because he is trying to manage the situation with all the adverse issues affecting the performance of the Budget in our country. I will not belabour mining because we know how that is performing. There has been a downward trend in terms of production yet we want to achieve the 3 million metric tonnes. Let us ensure that the measures we have implemented push our production.

Madam Speaker, drought is something that someone cannot foresee. However, there are mitigation measures that are being taken, and I appreciate them. I will quickly proceed to talk about fiscal discipline because that is what planning is anchored on. We have the Public Debt Management Act No. 15 of 2022, which is very important. Let us proceed to come up with a Debt Management Office that will help us to manage debt. I have seen that the formulation of an Annual Fiscal Risk Assessment has been highlighted. That is very brilliant because as we look at our Budget, we will also look at risk factors or what might happen during the Budget period and mitigate some issues such as drought and other calamities.

Madam Speaker, enhancing absorption or utilisation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is still a challenge because some councils do not have capacity. Even today, I was arguing with councils. There is a back and forth between us. I think, we need to find a way to utilise the funds and ensure that projects are implemented within the quickest time possible. I think, we need to put our heads together as a House and work together to resolve this issue moving forward.

Madam Speaker, regarding the provision of financial assistance to agriculture, we cannot talk about it because we know what we are going through. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning is making some interventions to ensure that we are on the right trajectory. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is on firm ground. He must proceed with what he is doing, and we are here to support him.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The last hon. Member to debate before the hon. Minister responds is the hon. Member for Wusakile.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion. Firstly, allow me to thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I have listened to a lot of debate here. The questions that have characterised the debate are: What has befallen the country? Where are we coming from? What interventions are we making? Are we doing the right thing? I think, these are the issues that I have followed. What has befallen this nation is untruthful reporting and policy inconsistency.

Mr Kapyanga: Corruption.

Mr Kalobo: That is what has befallen this country.

Madam Speaker, the Government has been applying policies that have failed. It has been applying policies without conducting research and making improvements. There is evidence in the Hansard. We have made contributions in this House and told the Government that the policies it is bringing will fail. Where is the research report that shows us where we have failed as a country, what new things the Government has introduced, and what new things will make us improve? These are the issues.

Madam Speaker, we have macro-economic indicators that are straightforward. For example, somebody has just told us that exports improved. However, I have seen that copper production has gone down from 854,000 metric tonnes to 680,000. Also, on the manufacturing side, the report on page 8 says that there is a drop of 1.5 per cent. So, I expected your Committee to question the stakeholders who submitted the information. What magic is there? When copper production and manufacturing is dropping, what factors have led to improved exports? So, there is untruthful reporting. My hon. Colleague said that in 2021 the rate of inflation was 22 per cent, but now it is a single digit. For me, that is untruthful reporting, again. The rate of inflation and the exchange rate move in tandem; they do not pull each other. When you look at what is obtaining, you will see that they are pulling each other in the opposite direction. So, what kind of mathematics is that? These things are supposed to move in tandem. That is what is creating problems. We on the left told the Government that the policy of giving incentives to mining companies cannot work, but it went ahead and gave incentives. We should have collected US$800 million plus this December. Instead, the Government gave away mineral royalties. What kind of thinking is that?

Mr Kapyanga: What is that?

Mr Kalobo: Are you being truthful? Are you being patriotic to your nation?

Mr Kapyanga: No. Patriotic to foreigners.

Mr Kalabo: Let us implement policies that will help this country. The way the Government is moving, it will not help us. Nalumangonomics is not working. Increasing in order to reduce is not working.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kalabo: The Government is now applying Nalumangonomics in policies. You have to take away from the law in order to give. It is not coming.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this time. I want to focus mainly on the issues raised by the party opposite, relating to the mining industry on the Copperbelt, especially from the hon. Member for Kamfinsa. First of all, I premise my contribution on the fact that I have been associated with mining and the Copperbelt Province for many years. From secondary school in the early 1970s, I have been associated with the mining industry and the Copperbelt Province. I have worked in all the mining companies and at all levels, not visited.

Mr Mubika: Tell them!

Eng. Milupi: This coincided with the period when the mines and the Copperbelt were thriving. Every aspect of life on the Copperbelt was thriving because the mining industry was thriving. This is evidenced by football teams like Nchanga Rangers, Konkola Blades, Mufulira Wanderers, and so on and so forth. Now, what happened is that in the ten years from 2011, copper production in the country was 800,000 tonnes. Our neighbour on the other side, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), was producing half of that, which is 400,000 tonnes. In the ten years from that time to 2021, there was no investment whatsoever here in Zambia in the mining industry. That resulted in the stagnation of copper production, such that by 2021, copper production in Zambia remained at 800,000 tonnes. On the other side, in the DRC, the investment that should have come here in Zambia escaped us and went to the DRC. So, by 2021, copper production in the DRC had moved from 400,000 tonnes to slightly over 2 million tonnes.

Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleague, my fellow engineer friend, has questioned our target of 3 million tonnes. Let me first of all, remind him and the rest that, because of inconsistent policies, …

Mr Mabeta: Of the PF!

Eng. Milupi: … especially in tax regimes, many mining companies here in Zambia made up their minds to leave the country.

Interruptions

Mr Kalobo: Let them go!

Eng. Milupi: Let me explain.

Ms Sefulo: What do you have?

Interruptions

Eng. Milupi: Let me explain. In terms of mining, …

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members on my left!

Eng. Milupi: … what you produce is always in tandem with what you have developed.

Madam Speaker, you always develop ahead of production. When you make up your mind that you want to leave because of whatever reason, the first thing that happens in mining is that you stop developing. That is the situation we were in when we came into office. Mining companies like First Quantum Minerals Limited (FQM) and Lumwana Mine operating in the North-Western Province had made up their minds to leave. Therefore, there was no development. There was no investment.

Hon. PF Members: Let them go!

Interruptions

Eng. Milupi: In addition to that – it is not a question of letting them go. Let us face facts here. In addition to that, the traditional mining companies like Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM) and Mopani Copper Mines Plc were affected. We all know that Mopani Copper Mines Plc was under care and maintenance. We all remember the story of that Chief Executive Officer (CEO) who was stopped from leaving the country.

Mr Mabeta: Teach them!

Eng. Milupi: Look at KCM. It was put under erroneous liquidation. So, there was no production and development taking place. Now, we are targeting to produce 3 million tonnes in ten years from 2021 to 2031. Here is what we have done.

Eng. Nzovu: Tell them!

Eng. Milupi: We have unlocked KCM, such that US$1.3 billion has been invested. Most of that is going into production, which will be preceded by development. We have unlocked Mopani Copper Mines Plc, which has the largest ore reserve; it is called the synclinorium, and US$1.1 billion is going to be invested there. We shall see life at that mine. Part of that is development.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, I had said that there will be no points of order. We are now at 1614 hours. The hon. Minister is responding. I have noted that even senior hon. Members of the House are talking across the Floor of the House. Others are debating while seated. I can see the hon. Member for Mpika and the hon. Member for Wusakile talking. Please, restrain yourselves. Let us listen.

Mr Kapyanga: It is the hon. Member for Mwandi!

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, FQM, which had made up its mind to leave, is now reinvesting US$1.3 billion.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Eng. Milupi: In addition to that, Lumwana Mine, which had questioned its stay in the country, is reinvesting US$2 billion. Mingomba Mining Limited, whose ore body was referred to as Konkola North in old times, is going to come on stream because over US$3 billion will be invested. In addition to that, Luanshya Copper Mines No. 28 Shaft, which was dormant, is now being dewatered. It is earmarked to produce 40,000 tonnes per annum in addition to the existing 43,000 tonnes. I am confident that the rest of that tenement will yield more tonnes.

Madam Speaker, with all this happening in the mining industry, I am absolutely confident that the New Dawn Government will be able to attain that target of 3 million tonnes. Not only that, what I see, confidently, is that the Copperbelt Province is coming back to life.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: We have seen that now that the issue of Mopani Copper Mines Plc has been resolved, money is being paid to councils and council officials are praising what is happening. That is going to cascade to other mining companies. Already, last week, you heard that KCM paid councils and US$250 million to its suppliers, those who provided services. That money is going into the economy of the Copperbelt.

Mr Mabeta: Exactly!

Mr Nkombo: Retirees are paid!

Eng. Milupi: Retirees in councils are being paid, but more than that, the whole of the Copperbelt service industry is also going to come to life.

Madam Speaker, marketeers in the various mine townships, whether Chiwempala or other townships in Kitwe, Ndola and other towns, will have money because they will be able to trade. There will be people to buy their tomatoes, cabbages, and other things.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member also questioned how we will achieve the 3 million tonnes target with the current deficit of power. We have made plans about that. We announced that in terms of power production, we are going to move from the current under 4,000 MW to 10,000 MW or 10 GW. If he has not taken note of what we are doing, what we are doing with solar energy is going to be revolutionary.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: We have decided at the Cabinet and presidential level that a person can produce up to 5 MW. The system will be such that you will be facilitated to produce this, and it will take three months for those who are interested. Already, we have hundreds of applications from people who want to produce up to 5 MW.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Others will be producing a lot more than that.

Madam Speaker, we also have more power projects in Maamba, Batoka and Luapula. So, all this means that the target of 10,000 MW capacity for the country will be attained. So, there will be no deficit in terms of the power that we are able to produce because we have made decisions, recognising the time in which we operate and what our predecessors did to ruin the mining industry in the country. We are going to revive the industry.

Mr Kalobo: Question!

Eng. Milupi: The hon. Member from Wusakile ought to appreciate that because most of his members are miners. They will benefit.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kalobo: Question!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I am responding to the debate on the report of the Committee, and I thank the Committee for the wonderful report. Rather than repeating what many people have said, I will respond to a number of points, many of them misleading. I need to correct them for the public to hear properly.

Madam Speaker, the first point I want to say is that I am very saddened. That is why I always say, hon. Colleagues, get informed …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … because when you are not informed, you are a danger to yourself and to society.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Correct!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I say this because my hon. Colleagues there were saying that if the mining companies want to leave, let them go.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Dr Musokotwane: That means hon. Colleagues on the left want to perpetuate the situation that we found, that is, the mining companies were closed. They are happy to see mining companies closed because they have no alternative. They closed Mopani Copper Mines Plc and Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM) for more than four years and they had no response or replacement. So, when they say, “let them go,” it means they want the country to shut down. Hon. Members of Parliament, especially those from the Copperbelt Province, when you say that you want the mining companies to shut down, that really shocks me. That is why I say, get yourself informed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalobo interjected.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, hon. Colleagues have said –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Wusakile, I am warning you. Please, restrain yourself.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, hon. Colleagues have said that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has given mining companies tax holidays. I say to them: There are no tax holidays. It just shocks me when they say that we have given tax holidays to mining companies because it shows that they are not investing time in knowledge. I challenge them today to find out the mining tax in Canada, the mining tax in Australia, the mining tax in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Ghana, Chile and Peru and lay it on the Table. I want to tell the House that Zambia’s mining tax is higher than in all these countries even today.

Mr Kapyanga: Kutimwalachita compare Zambia kuli Canada?

Dr Musokotwane: So, for them to say – 

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, if you are sent out today, we will only see you in September.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, hon. Members on both sides, please, restrain yourselves.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, there are no tax incentives given to the mining sector that are higher than in other countries. We are still the country with the highest tax regime for the mining industry. Hon. Colleagues did not recognise this, and that is what scares me. They could not see the kind of harm they were doing to the country. They did not even have the time to check how Congo, Canada or Australia were taxing the mining industry. They did not have time for that. They had no capacity for that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: So, when the mining industry collapses. They get surprised and they say, “oh, let them go” so that the Copperbelt Province remains in doldrums.  What? I cannot even say what I want to say.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, somebody said, one of the mining companies owed US$1 billion, which the Governments wrote off. That is another area where hon. Members should invest knowledge in. Yes, the mining company owed some taxes, but they also owed money. So, what did we do? Rather than take each other to court for years and years, we said, “We are not going to mine in court; we are going to mine in the boardrooms. So, present your demands and put them there. We will also present our demands, put them there. Then we net off.” The result is that the company has now increased investment. This is how the nickel mine was started under the Patriotic Front (PF). The mining company said it could not continue under the prevailing circumstances. It stopped the project because of harassment. A more responsible Government has come and the mine has emerged. Do the hon. Members on the left see how harmful their Government was?

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Do you see how harmful your Government was?

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, somebody said that the Budget in Zambia favours foreigners. In the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, we are sending millions of children to school for free. Under the PF, those children were discarded to rot. Under the UPND Government, we are hiring teachers all over the country. The PF Government did not hire teachers and children were left to rot. Under the UPND Government, we are hiring health workers. All the people who are being hired are Zambians.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members for Shiwang’andu and Mpika –

Dr Musokotwane: I am responding to what you have been saying. Why are you scared?

Madam Speaker: He is responding to what you debated.

Mr Kampyongo: But there is a report!

Dr Musokotwane: I am responding, and it is my right to respond. So, please, keep your peace.

Madam Speaker, under the UPND Government, for the first time, desks are being bought for schools. Classrooms are being constructed and health centres are being constructed for ordinary Zambians. All these things were not done under the PF Government. I would say that if there are people who benefited under the PF Government, they are the individuals in the PF.

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

Madam Speaker:  Order!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, please, leave the Assembly Chamber for today. You will come back tomorrow.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: There is a report!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Otherwise, I am going to name you.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Kampyongo left the Assembly Chamber.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, under the UPND Government, retirees who used to stay for five to six years without being paid are now being paid.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: These are Zambians.

Madam Speaker, what I am saying is that the beneficiaries under the UPND Government are Zambians. So, for somebody to say that the Budgets under the UPND are favouring foreigners is totally untrue because the things we are doing under the Budgets are for Zambians and the PF Government never did them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, as I conclude, let me say that in actual fact, the beneficiaries under the PF Government were PF individuals.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: That is why no one cared for children and sick people. Today, we hear that such and such a party official is being told to bring back so many houses and so much money. That clearly means the beneficiaries were not Zambians but PF officials.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I am very happy to say that under this Government, the people of Zambia are seeing the benefits of being Zambians.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, there are challenges, but the little money that we have managed to gather is going to the people, not to individual pockets.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, let me thank all the debaters. I noted that about thirteen hon. Members of Parliament debated, and then Hon. Eng. Milupi and Hon. Dr Musokotwane debated.

Madam Speaker, this was the mid-year Budget performance review. Two key issues were looked at. One is macro-economic fundamentals like the growth rate, interest rate, targets and inflation rates and the other one is revenue versus expenditure. To put the record straight, in terms of revenue, the target was at K75.8 billion. Hon. Dr Musokotwane can confirm that. The revenue collected was K74.77 billion, with a negative variance of 1.4 per cent. That is not very bad, given the situation we are in. In terms of expenditure, what was targeted was K89.77 billion, but the actual expenditure was K88.47 billion, which gives us a 1.1 per cent negative variance. This is why the Committee indicated that the performance was satisfactory. I heard sentiments that this was a dismal performance. Now, when you look at the spending to the ministries, provinces and other agencies, you will see that the target at mid-June is expected to be about 50 per cent, all things being equal. The upper limit was about 45 per cent, which means there is a variance of 5 per cent. This is quite a good indicator. The lower band was about 36 per cent. If you look at the average variance, you will see that 7.5 per cent is the variance.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to mining, the hon. Member for Wusakile Constituency disputed the figures. These figures came from the stakeholders who appeared before the Committee, including the Zambia Chamber of Mines (ZCM), the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and others. The report says that in the first quarter of 2024, the value of the exports of goods rose by 13.8 per cent to K60.6 billion from K53.0 billion in the corresponding quarter of 2023. This was mainly on account of an increase in export earnings of intermediate goods, mainly copper anodes. These are the values. We have not forgotten about the price. What was the price in 2023? In fact, the report goes further to indicate that as at the end of May 2024, copper production increased by 14.9 per cent to 165,984 metric tonnes compared with 144.453 metric tonnes in 2023. These are the figures that came from the stakeholders. I just wanted to put things in perspective and say the correct position. The Committee received submissions from the stakeholders who appeared before it. So, these values are correct as per the Committee’s observations and recommendations.

Madam Speaker, I just wanted to correct that and indicate that amidst all the challenges we have, I think, the performance of the Budget has been very good. The stakeholders talked about the credibility of the Budget, which is key. We have not seen Budget overruns.

Madam Speaker, having said that, let me thank all the debaters. Now, I call upon all hon. Members of Parliament to recommend the approval and adoption of this report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

BILLS

THE KAZUNGULA BRIDGE AUTHORITY BILL

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Sampa was about to leave the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Matero, you just came in, and you are going back. We have a long day today.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: We need all the hon. Members in the House.

Interruptions

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, my apologies for the delay. The objects of the Bill are to:

1. give effect to the Agreement relating to the establishment of the Kazungula Bridge Authority made between the Government of the Republic of Zambia and the Government of the Republic of Botswana; and
2. provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mubika (Shangombo): Madam Speaker, the Committee on Transport, Works and Supply was tasked to scrutinise the Kazungula Bridge Authority Bill No. 12 of 2024 for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly. In order to acquaint itself with the ramifications of the Bill, the Committee sought both written and oral submissions from various stakeholders, the list of which is at Appendix 2 of this report.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying, your Committee noted that Clause 4(c) provides for toll rates and their periodic adjustments. However, it expressed concern as the Bill does not expressly state that periodic adjustments of toll rates will require an adjustment through a Statutory Instrument (SI) in order to have the necessary legal backing. In view of this, your Committee recommends that the Bill includes a provision that will allow for toll rates adjustments through an SI, which is necessary for good order and better carrying out of the provisions of the law once the Bill is enacted into law.

Madam Speaker, another observation has to do with Clause 13, which provides for timelines for dispute resolutions. Your Committee is of the view that disputes involving two state parties may be complex due to issues regarding jurisdiction, co-ordination and sovereignty and can take longer to resolve beyond the timelines provided in the Bill. In this regard, your Committee recommends that contracting parties consider reviewing the timelines by extending the timelines for dispute resolution to accommodate complex disputes involving two state parties. Further, the Bill should provide for flexible timelines that can be extended by mutual agreement between the state parties. It should also include provisions for interim measures or temporary arrangements to be put in place while disputes are being resolved.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I wish to emphasise that the enactment of the Kazungula Bridge Authority Bill is a progressive step towards regional co-operation and economic development. The establishment of this Authority follows the successful models of other joint institutions, such as the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA), which has effectively managed the railway line between the two countries and the Zambezi River Authority (ZRA), which has successfully managed the Kariba Dam and reservoir on behalf of Zambia and Zimbabwe. Similarly, the Kazungula Bridge Authority will ensure that there is effective management and maintenance of the Kazungula Bridge, which is important for facilitating trade and regional integration. Therefore, I urge all hon. Members of this august House to support the enactment of this Bill. 

As I end, Madam Speaker, allow me to render my sincere gratitude to you and the Clerk of the National Assembly of Zambia for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations. Gratitude also goes to all the stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions before your Committee.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, let me state from the outset that I fully support the Motion as it is very progressive.

Madam Speaker, the Kazungula Bridge connects Zambia and Botswana and generates revenue through toll fees, freight charges and trade. The bridge was constructed at a total cost of US$259 million, which was a loan from the Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA) and other co-operating partners. This money has to be paid back. So, the establishment of the Kazungula Bridge Authority will help to enhance revenue collection and ensure that the money is paid back on time. It goes to show that when a loan or debt is prudently used, like the Patriotic Front (PF) did, you can have results such as the Kazungula Bridge.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mubika: MMD!

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I need your protection from the chairperson of your Committee.

Madam Speaker: Do not mention political parties. The Government worked.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I was saying, when a loan or debt is prudently used, you get legacy projects such as the Kazungula Bridge, the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport (KKIA) and the Ndola greenfield among other projects. The good part of this project is that it will self-finance the loan. I wish the same could be done with roads such as the Lusaka/Ndola dual carriageway. The road could be constructed through a loan, and the money would be paid back through toll fees, unlike giving it to a concessionaire who will run it for twenty-five years because we will lose a lot in toll fees. For twenty years, we will starve the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) of money that could be used for road maintenance in Kamfinsa, Mpika and other areas. The model used on the Kazungula Bridge is encouraged and the Government can continue undertaking such models. The Government has done well to come up with the initiative of establishing an authority to manage the bridge. It will enhance the maintenance of the bridge and all that comes with self-preservation.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, from the outset, I wish to support the initiative and the step that has been taken to set up an authority which will be called the Kazungula Bridge Authority. As I support the Bill before this august House, it is important that I provide information not only to the public but to everyone gathered this afternoon. There is a short history to this project. A feasibility study was done to determine the need for a bridge between Zambia and Botswana to ensure that international trade takes place, jobs are created, and an economic route is made available through Kazungula. There are a few important dates. In 2012, if my recollection is very accurate, around 30^thMarch, a sponsorship agreement was signed. Zambia and Botswana decided to sponsor the project, which project was eventually financed by the African Development Bank (AfDB) and Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA) between the two countries referred to in this project.

Madam Speaker, that history is important because it reminds us that Zambia and Botswana have co-operated not only on cultural issues but also on economic issues. Fast forward, in 2020, the Kazungula Bridge was completed. In 2021, I remember it was in the month of May when the bridge was commissioned, signalling that Zambia and Botswana were now ready to provide a route through Kazungula. Why have I taken time to give the short background to the project? When two countries agree to do something, there are results. This is why today I am agreeing with the proposal that, now that we have the infrastructure in place, and because of the demands of the implementation plan, we have the Bill before this august House. Reasonable hon. Members of Parliament in this august House duly support the idea that we need an authority now. I hope that based on the recommendations of your Committee's report, work will be done.

Madam Speaker, in your report, about five things have been highlighted as serious concerns as we establish this authority. The first challenge that has been identified is how we are going to share the excess revenue between the contracting parties. The Bill has been presented today, but the sharing mechanism is not available. As the Government responds, I want to know whether amendments will be moved today, tomorrow or when Parliament reconvenes. There is no need for your Committee to sit and identify something missing, and then we do not do justice to the legal provision. We need to have a commitment as to when the amendments relating to the sharing mechanism and the adjustment of toll fees will be worked on because they are not provided for in the Bill that we are considering. Thirdly, the law has not stated how issues to do with tax exemptions will be treated once the authority is in place. The demand from your Committee is that, when we approve the Bill and it eventually becomes an Act of Parliament, we need a provision that deals with tax exemptions.

Finally, Madam Speaker, the chairperson of your Committee, who presented the report, has identified a challenge under item number four, which is the lack of timelines. When there will be a dispute between Zambia and Botswana or any other stakeholder using that facility, how will the conflict be resolved? How long will the conflict take to be resolved, and what are the timelines? Using the findings of your Committee, I think, there are indications of what amendments we need to make to the Bill.

Madam Speaker, the Bill before this House is duly supported, and I hope that appropriate amendments will be made. If the Government is not ready to move the amendments, some of us have become knowledgeable about how amendments should be done and we are ready to support the proposed amendments.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I thank the chairperson of your Committee, and I support the report.

Madam Speaker, in supporting the report, let me look at the concerns of the people who appeared before your Committee regarding the Kazungula Bridge Authority. Authorities are created and they start working. When you look at the fees that the Kazungula Bridge is charging, you will agree that it is raising a substantial amount of money. My plea is that we should be having reports on how much money should be shared. Yes, there could be a challenge on how to share the excess money. I am sure, the Government will take charge. That should be sorted out within the next forty-eight hours for us to be certain about what we want to achieve. When you look at the traffic at the Kazungula Bridge, you will see that the bridge will need maintenance in the next few years. As Zambians, we are very weak regarding maintenance. It is like the word “maintenance” is not in our vocabulary. We start projects and complete them. The facilities start running, but we think that they do not need maintenance thereafter. If we neglect that bridge now, if we do not start saving money to maintain it, time will come when the bridge will require a substantial amount of money to be repaired and we might not have the money then. So, my plea to the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics is that from today, whatever money we raise should be saved in an account to be used to maintain the bridge. 

Madam Speaker, you will agree with me that the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) is run like we as Zambians do not think. Today, we are asking the Chinese Government to come and invest in a very lucrative railway line. We as Zambians have failed to manage the same railway line. I want to give a practical example of TAZARA. The railway line is being used by a company called Bridge Shipping Zambia Limited. This company is making more money than TAZARA. The question is: What kind of people are we? We forget something, which is maintenance. We cannot manage a man-made thing. We always leave out the component of maintenance. That goes for the Kazungula Bridge Authority. Looking at the traffic that has been on Kazungula Bridge since 2021, I am pretty sure that above US$100 million has been collected. My plea is, in the next three or four years, we might have to pay the loan with interest. Thereafter, how are we going to use the money that is going to be raised from the bridge? It is very important that we know how we are going to use the money we are going to raise from there. As Zambians, we have a problem. The problem we have is that the word “maintenance” is not in our vocabulary.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, I want to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament who debated, that is, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika, Hon. Robert Kapyanga; Hon. Kang’ombe, Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa;and Hon. Menyani Zulu, Member of Parliament for Nyimba.

Madam Speaker, that is how it is supposed to be. We are supposed to support progressive Bills.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Madam Speaker: Committee stage to be taken when?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, this is a procedural matter. I have not had an opportunity to wind up the debate. I do not know whether we can go back or we will proceed.

Madam Speaker: Sorry, I asked the hon. Member for Shang’ombo to wind up debate. It was my mistake. I think, let us go back. Sorry.

May the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development wind up debate.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I wish to commend your Committee on Transport, Works and Supply for the work done on the review and scrutiny of the Kazungula Bridge Authority Bill No. 12 of 2024. The Committee has brought out very important observations and recommendations on the Bill aimed at enhancing the effectiveness of the current Bill. I wish to thank your Committee for its support of the Bill.

Madam Speaker, your Committee’s observation and recommendation is that excess revenues declared by the authority be explicitly stated in the Bill and such excess revenue be shared equally. I wish to take your Committee to Clause No. 3 on the utilisation of monies. Funds shall not be disbursed to the contracting authority except in response to a decision of the council. This should include the financial forecast of the costs and the income of the authority for the subsequent three years, demonstrating that the distribution of money to the contracting parties is economically justified. So, I wish to inform the Committee of the whole House that this is a bilateral agreement. The authority that is being established is between Zambia and Botswana. On top of the management that we shall put in place, the agreement specifically states that the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the Authority shall be a Zambian. Granted, the hosting country will be Botswana. The authority will be hosted in Kasane, Botswana, but the CEO will come from this country.

Madam Speaker, I think, reference to maintenance was made by the hon. Member for Nyimba. The person in charge of maintenance will be Zambian. On top of that, there will be a board of ten members equally representing both countries. On top of that, there will be a council of ministers; three will represent Zambia and the other three will represent Botswana. So, this is an agreement that ties together two countries. Sometimes, when you focus on the exclusion of the country, it becomes difficult. The issue of excess revenues is recognised and will be dealt with at council level.

Madam Speaker, in terms of what this authority is going to do, it will be much more than just running the bridge. The two Presidents, President Masisi of Botswana and our own President Hakainde Hichilema, have given direction to the incoming bridge authority to develop the site into a world tourism site because it is a unique site. It is the only site in the whole world where four countries meet. Therefore, work has started both on the Botswana and Zambia sides to ensure that both sides of the river are developed into world tourism sites.

Madam Speaker, the maintenance that Hon. Menyani Zulu talked about has been taken into account because a maintenance department has been established. The CEO and the management team will be mandated with the responsibility of developing the maintenance programme and ensuring that it is of high quality. They will also come up with revenue raising measures. For example, if you look at the construction, you will see that the bridge is unique. Already, people are coming from all parts of the world and they want to have marathons on the bridge. So, it is much more than a bridge. I think, what the hon. Member for Nyimba said is that mu Zambia we ignore maintenance. What we should say is, in Zambia we used to ignore things like maintenance, but not anymore. The New Dawn Government appreciates that when you put up an asset, you have to maintain it to the highest standards in order to continue getting value from it. 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Before we proceed, I just want to correct the record. The record from the point when I called on the hon. Member for Shang’ombo to wind up debate to just before I called on the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to wind up debate should be expunged. All that portion should be expunged.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committee on Friday, 2^nd August, 2024.

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

 Chair]

THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION BILL, 2023

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, as you are aware, the Human Rights Commission Bill was returned to the House by the President for reconsideration by the House. The procedure for the consideration of a Bill returned at Committee Stage is provided for under Order No. 128(6) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024 as follows:

         “128. Procedure when Bill is Returned

(6)        During consideration of the Bill at Committee Stage, the Committee of the Whole House may:

1. amend the Bill taking into account the President’s reservation; or
2. pass the Bill, without amendment, by a vote supported by at least two-thirds of the Members of Parliament.”

Hon. Members, considering that amendments on this Bill have been circulated, the Committee of the Whole House will proceed in line with Standing Order No. 128(6)(a). In this regard, the Bill will be considered clause by clause.

Clauses 1, 2, 3, and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill

CLAUSE 5 – (Seal of Commission)

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 7:

1. in line 16 by the deletion of the word “Secretary” and the substitution therefor of the word “Director-General”;
2. in line 18 by the deletion of the word “Secretary” and the substitution therefor of the word “Director-General”; and
3. in line 24 by the deletion of the word “Secretary” and the substitution therefor of the word “Director-General”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7 – (Composition of Commission)

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 7, on page 9, in line 32 by the insertion of the words “on account of misconduct or incompetence.” immediately after the word “President”;

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 8, 9 and 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 11 – (Director General, Secretary and other staff)

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 11:

(a)        on page 11

(i)        in lines 14 to 17 by the deletion of the marginal note and the substitution

therefor of the following:

Director-General and other staff;

(ii)       after line 18 by the insertion of the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph (b):

(c)        be the secretary of the Commission;

(iii)      in lines 19 to 21 by the renumbering of paragraphs (c) and (d) as paragraphs (d) and (e), respectively;

(iv)      in line 29 by the deletion of paragraph (b) and the substitution therefor of the following new paragraph:

 (b)       has at least five years’ work experience in a human rights field;

(v)       in lines 30 to 33 by the deletion of subclause (3);

(vi)      in line 39 by the deletion of the word “Secretary”; and

(vii)     in lines 34 to 39 by the renumbering of the subclauses (4) and (5) as subclauses (3) and (4), respectively; and

(b)        on page 12, in lines 1 to 3 by the renumbering of subclause (6) as subclause (5).

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 11, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 12 (Oath on appointment)

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 12, on page 12, in line 4 by the deletion of the word “Secretary”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 12, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 21 – (Report and recommendations of Commission)

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 21, on page 16:

1. in line 1by the deletion of the word “officer” and the substitution therefor of the word “person”; and
2. after line 12 by the insertion of the following new subclause (5) immediately after

subclause (4):

(5) The Commission may, in providing redress, bring an action before Court for, or on behalf of, a victim or complainant.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 21, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 and 30 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 31 – (General offences)

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 31:

1. on page 18
2. in line 35 by the deletion of the word “or” immediately after the semi-colon: and
3. in line 38 by the insertion of the word “or” immediately after the semi-colon; and
4. on page 19
5. in line 3 by the deletion of the semi-colon and the word “or” immediately after the word “person” and the substitution therefor of a full stop; and
6. in line 4 by the deletion of paragraph (f).

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 31, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 32 and 33 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY (Amendment) BILL, 2024

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE CIVIL AVIATION (Amendment) BILL, 2024

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE MINERALS REGULATION COMMISSION BILL, 2024

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, you will recall that during the consideration of Clause 12 of the Minerals Regulation Commission Bill No. 1 of 2024, yesterday, Wednesday, 31^st, July, 2024, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development sought leave of the House to defer the consideration of the Committee Stage of the Bill to today, Thursday, 1^st August, 2024. We shall now resume the consideration of the Bill.

CLAUSE 12 – (Disqualification from holding mining right and non-mining right)

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (on behalf of the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe)): Mr Chairperson, with leave of the House, I beg to defer the consideration of the Bill to a later date to allow for further consultations. This is in accordance with Standing Order No. 121.

Mr Kalobo: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

The debate on the Bill, by leave, accordingly deferred.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Human Rights Commission Bill, 2023

Report Stage today.

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments:

The Civil Aviation Authority (Amendment) Bill, 2024

The Civil Aviation (Amendment) Bill, 2024

Third Readings today.

REPORT STAGE

The Human Rights Commission Bill, 2023

Report adopted.

Third Reading today.

THIRD READING

The following Bills were read the third time and passed.

The Human Rights Commission Bill, 2023 

The Civil Aviation Authority (Amendment) Bill, 2024

The Civil Aviation (Amendment) Bill, 2024

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I must say that I liked the debate yesterday.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: I was following.

_______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1758 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 2^nd August, 2024.

____________