Debates- Wednesday, 7th December, 2011

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 7th December, 2011
 
The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

CHANGES TO THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEES

Mr Speaker: In accordance with Standing Order No. 133(3), the following changes have been made to the composition of the following Committees:

Committee on Estimates

Hon. D. Mabumba, MP has been replaced by Mr C. Matafwali, MP; and Hon. Colonel (Retired) J. Lungu, MP has been replaced by Hon. R. Mwewa, MP.

Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply

Hon. Dr M. Mwale, MP has been replaced by Mr S. Kampyongo, MP; and
Hon. Brigadier-General (Retired) B. Kapaya, MP has been replaced by Mr D. Mwango, MP.

Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs

Hon. Brigadier-General (Retired) B. Kapaya, MP has been replaced by Mr M. Ngonga, MP.

I thank you.

______________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

MINIMUM WAGE AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS SITUATIONS IN THE COUNTRY

The Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport (Mr Shamenda): Mr Speaker, I stand to brief this august House and the nation at large on the minimum wage and industrial relations situations in our country. I have divided my presentation into three parts. The first will deal with the minimum wage situation. The second part will deal with the industrial relations situation in the country. Finally, I will conclude by providing assurances on what we intend to do, as a Patriotic Front (PF) Government, to resolve the matters that will be highlighted.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the minimum wage situation, the Minimum Wages and Conditions of Service Act, Cap 276 is an Act of Parliament which provides powers to the Office of the Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport to institute safeguards against the erosion of decent earnings and working conditions that are mainly targeted at vulnerable groupings of workers.

Mr Speaker, the spirit of the law was meant to cushion the wages and the conditions of service for categories of employees who may be prone to exploitation. In this regard, other categories of employees who have representation and wages and conditions of service regulated through the process of collective bargaining or in management positions are excluded so as to allow for free collective bargaining.

This law was first enacted by this House in 1982 and had major amendments in 1997. As Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport, I am empowered, under this law, to provide this protection to workers by issuing a statutory instrument to set the minimum wages or minimum conditions of service for any group of workers. The law also allows my office to set the stipulated rate of wages to be paid by hour, day, week or month.

Mr Speaker, prudence dictates that the set minimum wages be reviewed every two years. Over the years, the statutory instruments have excluded Government employees, local authorities, domestic workers and those whose conditions of service are regulated through the process of collective bargaining and by contract if in management or those whose contracts are attested to by my ministry.

Mr Speaker, over the last fifteen years, the minimum wages have been set as follows:

(i) in 1997, under Statutory Instrument No. 119 of 1997 (General Order) and Statutory Instrument No. 120 of 1997 (Shop Workers), the minimum wage was set at K245 per hour or K55,000 per month;

(ii) in 2002, under Statutory Instrument No. 2 (General Order) and Statutory Instrument No. 3 (Shop Workers), the minimum wage was set at K400 per hour or K95,000 per month;

(iii) in 2006, under Statutory Instrument No. 56 (Shop Workers) and Statutory Instrument No. 57 (General Order), the minimum wage was increased to K268,800 per month with 30 per cent housing allowance, K70,000 lunch allowance and K80,000, transport allowance; and

(iv) in 2011, under Statutory Instrument No. 1 (General Order) and Statutory Instrument No. 2, Shop Workers, the minimum wage was set at K419,000 per month with housing allowance of 30 per cent of the basic salary, lunch allowance of K120,000 and transport allowance of  K102,400 per month. For the first time, domestic workers’ minimum salary and conditions of service were included under Statutory Instrument No. 3 for domestic workers. The minimum wage was pegged at K250,000 with transport allowance of K102,400, giving the domestic workers a minimum wage of K352,400 per month.

Mr Speaker, let me now talk about the challenges in setting the provisions of the minimum wage and conditions of service.  Kindly note that this august House has made a legal provision that the hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport may consult, and the word ‘may’ should be underlined, to set the minimum wage and conditions of service. It is not a legal requirement that the social partners in the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council, which is formed by the Government, the Zambia Federation of Employers, being the employers’ representative, the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions and the Federation of Free trade Unions, being the workers’ representatives, be in agreement for the statutory instruments to be issued.

 The Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport has had challenges in the past in coming up with the general minimum wage and conditions of service, as stakeholders under the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council have, in the past, failed to arrive at a figure for the minimum wage for various categories of workers.

Mr Speaker, in order to avert wholesale industrial liquidations, redundancies and unemployment, caution has to be exercised as this might lead to Small and Medium Scale Enterprises (SMEs) and households not being able to afford to pay their workers.

Mr Speaker, the efforts to better the working conditions of workers in Zambia is not restricted to this law, but it can assist the trade unions to negotiate reasonable conditions of service, taking into consideration that the wages set under this law should be the minimum. However, we have observed that some trade unions have negotiated for conditions far less favourable than what is prescribed in the statutory instruments. An example of this is the agriculture sector where farmers pay according to the Joint Industrial Council, an agreement which is like a sectoral collective agreement, but has less favourable conditions than the minimum wages set in the Statutory Instruments.

Mr Speaker, the ministry is working on a sectoral-based minimum wage mechanism. This process requires consultation and research so that we can develop evidence-based policy decisions. We will need to be careful in our consideration, taking into account the performance of various economic sectors, in particular that both domestic and foreign investors are able to get a fair return on the capital invested and the capacity of employers to pay. We need to be cautious because a badly-set minimum wage could have negative effects on employment generation and family income.

Mr Speaker, permit me now to talk about the industrial relations situation in the country. It is a normal phenomenon to have sporadic work stoppages where there is a change of Government because workers are confident that the new rulers are liberators of the workers. This happened in 1964 after Independence, in 1991, when the MMD came into power and now in 2011 when the PF Government has ascended to power through the ballot. This not withstanding, the PF Government will stand by its election promises to deliver the people, especially our workers from exploitative employers.

Mr Speaker, you will recall that His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, in his inaugural speech to the nation lamented that some investors were not abiding by the labour laws and disadvantaging Zambian workers and later about the low levels of decent jobs in the formal sector. Furthermore, he instructed us on the need to adjust the minimum wages upwards and offer better protection for workers under the labour laws.

Mr Speaker, this led to the workers in different companies misunderstanding this position. The workers thought that they could take the law into their own hands and resolve all their labour grievances and wage increases immediately.

Mr Speaker, the last few months have been challenging to the ministry due to the changes being experienced on the labour market and workers’ protests in some cross sections of the economy, including the mining sector. The protests have involved temporary workers, employees whose conditions of service are regulated through a process of employment contracts and workers whose terms and conditions of employment are regulated through the process of collective bargaining, including those who are the actual beneficiaries of the minimum wage provisions. This situation has placed the Government in a very awkward position because the expectations of the workers are very high.

Mr Speaker, while the workers may exercise their right to protest, the unprecedented levels of work stoppages witnessed negated the principle of making sure that conditions are negotiated within the rule of law and are, therefore, not encouraged.

The Government appreciates the concerns by workers, but it is very important that things are done within the law in order to address the plight of the workers countrywide.

Mr Speaker, the labour laws in the country and, in particular, Section 76 of the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, Cap 269 of the Laws of Zambia allows workers to go on strike as long as the proper legal steps are taken such as declaring a dispute, calling for the conciliation process or taking the arbitration route and/or taking strike action.

Mr Speaker, the major reasons for the protests included the demand for the following:

 (i) salary increments;

 (ii) improved conditions of service;

 (iii) payment of salaries and wages on time; and

 (iv) reduction in casualisation.

In this context, some of the organisations that were highly affected are the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authourity (TAZARA), Non-Ferrous China Africa (NFCA), SYNO Metals, National Breweries, SCAW Limited, Murray and Roberts and the LTA Companies. Others were companies that were contracted by Konkola Copper Mines which included Barlow World, Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO), Armco Security Company, Embassy Supermarkets, Zambia Telecommunications Company (ZAMTEL), River Motel and Choma Milling.

Mr Speaker, by far, the largest number of affected workers, the highest number of man hours lost and the highest production costs incurred were at the NFCA.

Mr Speaker, please, allow me to provide more details on this case. More than 2,000 employees were involved in work stoppages at the NFCA Mining Company in Chambishi. The workers at the NFCA protested for a number of days, demanding improved conditions of service and salary increments. The hon. Deputy Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport, Hon. Mbulu, went there with some labour officers and met both management and the union in an effort to find a lasting solution to the problem.

Mr Speaker, I am glad to inform the House that all the workers have since resumed work. Further, the NFCA has promised the Government that no employee shall be victimised and both sides have started the process of paving way for negotiations.

Mr Speaker, we found that the current collective agreement is valid up to March, 2012. Therefore, the negotiations for the next collective agreement were about to start since the law requires that such negotiations should commence, at least, three months before the valid collective agreement has expired.

Mr Speaker, since the negotiations on the collective agreement had almost commenced, the two trade unions and management were encouraged to continue negotiating until both parties had reached a common ground. Currently, the situation in the country is calm and all the 2,000 dismissed employees at the NFCA Mine in Chambeshi have been re-instated unconditionally. My ministry has since directed the Mineworkers Union of Zambia and the National Union of Miners and Allied Workers to immediately begin their negotiations.

Mr Speaker, all this notwithstanding, the ministry has been faced with a number of challenges that have made it ineffective in the delivery of service to the public, especially the general protection of workers. Normally, the best way of preventing labour disputes or reducing labour complaints is to undertake labour inspections. However, due to inadequate funding, the officers lack vehicles and other logistics to do that. Further, over 60 per cent of the positions for labour officers are vacant while most of the labour laws have not been amended to bring them in line with modern labour practices.

Mr Speaker, in addressing matters related to the review of the minimum wage and conditions of service, we shall issue the required Statutory Instruments. This august House will be informed about them through the Committee on Delegated Legislation in accordance with the laid-down procedures.

Sir, let me take this opportunity to encourage the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions and the Federation of Free Trade Unions to instruct all their affiliate unions to utilise the collective bargaining process to arrive at reasonable wages and, above all, the minimum wage and conditions of service. Let me also ask employers, especially the Zambia Federation of Employers, to intensify the sensitisation of their members on the need to offer their employees decent wages and conditions of services.

Sir, let me assure the nation, through this august House, that we are mindful that what we should come up with should not lead to the liquidation of companies, redundancies and increased unemployment. The ministry will continue monitoring the situation countrywide, particularly, after announcement of the new minimum wage and conditions of service. I would also like to inform this august House that my ministry will develop a sector-based minimum wage mechanism.

Sir, shortly, my ministry will overhaul the labour laws to bring them in conformity with the current socio-economic developments. This will be done with the assistance of the International Labour Organisation (ILO), the Practice Sector Development Programme and the Tripartite Labour Consultative Council.

Mr Speaker, the ministry is also streamlining its operations by making the Labour Department more effective in preventing future industrial unrests. This will be done in line with the Presidential pronouncement that the Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport be effective and visible. We shall endeavour to intensify labour inspections and put in place workers and employers’ sensitisation programmes to sensitise workers and employers on the need to resolve labour disputes through the social dialogue process. Our appeal is that the Zambia Federation of Employers and the labour movement should also continue to sensitise their members on the rights and obligations of employees and employers. They should also sensitise them on why it is desirable to maintain good industrial relations at all times.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, it is my wish that these interventions and strategies that we have put in place improve labour administration, enhance compliance levels and reduce the number of labour complaints and protests in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze-Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has made a statement and used nomenclature that I cannot remember. However, could he inform the nation the difference between the policies that were implemented by the MMD Government and what he has just told this House.

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, unless the hon. Member of Parliament tells me what the similarities are, I will be not be able to tell him what the differences are.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They are very similar!

Hon. Government Members: Awe!

Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Speaker, I wonder what message regarding the minimum wage we should take to our consistencies. It remains unclear. Could he make it more clear?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, I would like to make it clear that we would like to make proper consultations. Immediately the consultations have been concluded, this House will be informed and the hon. Member of Parliament will have an opportunity to go and explain what will have been decided to his constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, I listened to the long statement by the hon. Minister. As I recall, the President had given specific instructions that the new minimum wages be announced within two weeks. Could the hon. Minister say, clearly, when this will be done because it is long past two weeks.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, I was present when the President gave me the instructions and I listened carefully. He did not say in two weeks time. Considering the complexity of what is involved, including the misunderstandings during the protests, we need to be very cautious as we make the necessary recommendations on this matter.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what mechanism the Government will employ to ensure adherence to the minimum wage of K352,400 for domestic workers, who are the maids and garden boys, considering that their jobs are informal.

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, which minimum wage is the hon. Member referring to?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

I ask the hon. Member for Kasenengwa to repeat the question.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to inform this House what mechanism will be employed to ensure that the minimum wage of K352,400 is adhered to.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Member complete the question without interjections, please.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned a minimum wage of K352,400 for maids and garden boys. What mechanism will be employed to ensure that this minimum wage is adhered to, considering that the jobs for these people are informal?

Mr Speaker: What enforcement mechanism is available?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, like all other conditions of service, particularly, where a statutory instrument has been issued, adherence is enforced in two ways. The first is through inspections. The inspectors go round to inspect. The second one is to educate the employees themselves because it is very difficult, even if we had many labour officers, to know who is being exploited and who is not. Therefore, we encourage all the employees who are paid below the minimum wage to contact any of the Labour Department offices. This way, they will be helped and our law will be respected.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister encourages the Zambia Federation of Employers to give reasonable wages and salaries. After his statement, the employers will have no figure to consider reasonable. Could he admit that he has brought this statement prematurely because it has not indicated the minimum wage.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, when you say that employers should give a reasonable wage, what that means, in simple terms or in labour relations, is that the employer or the investor should look at the earnings and profits of the company and share the revenue equitably with the people they employ. The reasonableness cannot come from a statement in this House because it is determined by the performance of the company. It is company-specific. That is why collective bargaining is done through an industry-specific mode. Some companies are more viable than others.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the situation in the country is calm. Through you, I would like to say that the situation in Kawambwa is not calm. I would like the hon. Minister to tell this House what his ministry is doing about the industrial unrest at Kawambwa Tea Company, which has been going since 21st October, 2011.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament has very easy access to the hon. Minister of Labour,  Youth and Sport. Therefore, if there are issues that have been brought to his attention, but he has failed to bring them to my attention, it is very difficult for me to know about them. I am not a magician, but just a simple human being.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, Mr Chibamba Kanyama is on record as having given counsel to this Government on the complexity of determining the minimum wage and the need for the Government to move with caution on the matter. Do you now agree with him?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, Mr Kanyamba … Kaba … Chibamba …

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: … Kanyama is one of the many specialists this country has. Some of the experts have written to my office on this matter and I have a very big file on it. Therefore, we are considering all these suggestions on their merit.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, one of the promises made by the PF Government during the campaigns was that it was going to increase the minimum wage. Based on the hon. Minister’s statement, especially the information that there will be a sector-based approach, can the hon. Minister confirm that, in fact, the PF Government will not be able to fulfill many of its campaign promises.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, I would like to assure the hon. Member that the issue of minimum wage will be sorted out within the ninety days, …

Interruptions

Mr Shamenda: … but we would like to carry out a thorough job so that we do not regret whatever we shall put in place.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, my humble understanding of the purpose of a minimum wage is that it is intended to cushion the cost of living. Can the hon. Minister reconcile the variance between this sector-based determined minimum wage and the need to reconcile the hardships associated with the cost of living?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, the carrying of a load between the father and the son is very different. Therefore, one cannot compare the mining sector with the agriculture sector or the shop workers, hence the need for us to take into consideration the capacity of each company. It should be determined this way so that we do not kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Zambezi East.

Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, I am sorry, my question has been asked by the hon. Member for Kasempa.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Nkana.

Mr Kazabu (Nkana): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister answered my question when he said that the minimum wage will be set within ninety days.

Laughter

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, are you aware that the Shoprite workers and farm workers get less than what you have just stated in the statement?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Member ask the question. Let us listen to the questions.

Mr Chisanga: Sir, if he is aware, what is his Government doing about these workers who have been exploited for quite sometime?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, it is just like police work. An officer will only arrest the person who is found wanting. We do not guess who is paying what. Immediately those cases are brought to our attention, I would like to assure the august House that they will be dealt with accordingly.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, in the previous administration, we saw that most of the foreign companies were allowed to abrogate our labour laws with impunity. What measures has the PF Government put in place to address this matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, we have made sure that there is zero tolerance to corruption. Therefore, our labour officers and all those who are supposed to enforce the labour …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Shamenda: … laws have been seriously warned that anybody who will be found wanting will be dealt with. 

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, I listened carefully to the hon. Minister’s statement. On two occasions, he referred to a sector-based minimum wage approach. Can the hon. Minister explain this approach and compare and contrast it with the current system?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, I am not sure that I understand the question. 

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: However, if I may try to speculate, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Before the hon. Minister engages in speculation, could the hon. Member repeat the question. We do not want speculations.

Laughter

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to repeat my question for the purpose of emphasising what I was saying. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: I will be as slow as possible (speaking very slowly).

Laughter

Dr Kazonga: I carefully listened to the ministerial statement made by the hon. Minister. He referred to a sector-based minimum wage approach which his ministry is working on. According to my calculations, he referred to it twice. I would like to know how this approach will work. Further, can the hon. Minister compare and contrast it to the current system?

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, I still have serious problems at the ministry.  As I said in my statement, this sector-based minimum wage approach as indicated in the Act, only caters for people who are not covered by collective bargaining agreements and those on contracts.

Many people have misunderstood our actions to mean that we are putting together a nationwide minimum wage. Even though that is not the case, I would still want to state that the minimum wage is taken into consideration when people are being hired or negotiating for salaries. I thought I needed to clear that misconception.

We have hired consultants from the International Labour Organisation (ILO) to help us sort out the problems surrounding the minimum wage issue. The minimum wage system we are using at the moment is the one which we inherited. We are in a hurry to make sure that we cushion the people. After we conclude our consultations on the minimum wage, we shall adopt a surgical approach that will help us to implement our agreed upon plan in an organised manner. The people in the mines should have their own minimum wage because the mining companies have their own working style.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: The workers in the construction industry and those in the agriculture sector will also have their own minimum wage. This is what a lot of countries in the world do. Therefore, this is what we are talking about when we talk about a sector-based minimum wage.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, obviously, the hon. Minister could not compare and contrast the sector-based minimum wage approach to the system which is in place because ... 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: … what he said is what is currently obtaining in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that the riots in Kalingalinga were a result of an uprising by the people demanding the fulfillment of the “More money in your pockets promise”?

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I am not sure whether we are still asking points of clarification on the statement by the hon. Minister.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Speaker: In my judgement, we are not. Therefore, I will not allow the hon. Minister to answer that question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, arising from the hon. Minister’s statement that 60 per cent of the positions in his establishment are vacant, can he indicate to this House how effective he will be in monitoring the current system regarding the minimum wage?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, we are in the process of making sure that we get all the vacancies filled. We will orient the people who are going to fill up the vacancies so that we can reduce conflicts at the work place.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, my understanding is that the issue of minimum wage has come up because the unemployment levels are very high and employers are able to negotiate lower wages. When you try to solve this problem just by using the approach of putting in place the minimum wage, you will fail because the beneficiaries are the ones who will defeat this strategy. What strategy do you have to create more job opportunities so that the problem of low wages can be eliminated naturally?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for coming to my rescue with regard to my having to respond to some questions.

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: I do not know whether we are discussing the minimum wage or job creation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, now that we are winding up the Motion, …

Hon. Government Members: Which Motion?

Mr Mbulakulima: The statement by the hon. Minister. 

Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister has failed to make adjustments to the MMD Government’s 2011 minimum wages that were arrived at scientifically, …

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: … despite the PF Government’s dramatised promises, can he confirm to the nation that the MMD Government was very cautious and prudent?

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, I was going through the records at my ministry the other day. I operate on the eleventh floor of the Government Complex, which housed the then Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development in the previous regime. The elevator was not working, and so I went to work in another office which used to house the then Ministry of Labour and Social Security. I found someone sweeping and checking through drawers to see whether there was some money hidden there.

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: Is that the prudence with which we can approach such issues?

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

____

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

STATE LOTTERIES BOARD

44. Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) what the financial status of the State Lotteries Board was as of 30th September, 2011;  and

(b)     what the future of the company was.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mrs Mwamba): Mr Speaker, the financial status of State Lotteries Board is summarised as follows:

From the statement of comprehensive income for the period January to September 2011, the overall turnover registered was K1.98 billion against expenditures of K2.2 billion. Thus, K220 million was recorded as a deficit as at 30th September, 2011.

Sir, I wish to inform the House that the total assets of the company on 30th September, 2011 stood at K16.56 billion while the total liabilities recorded were K7.23 billion. To this effect, the company’s net assets by 30th September, 2011, were worth K9.33 billion.

Mr Speaker, the net cash inflow from the activities of the company on 30th September, 2011 was K680 million in cash while that which was cash equivalent stood at K120 million. Please, note that by 30th September, 2011, there was no cash inflow from the company’s investment activities.

Sir, given the above-mentioned status of the company, the Government is looking at various options to finding a way forward for the company. Once a decision has been made, the House shall be advised accordingly.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, in the previous Government, we saw that work stoppages at the State Lotteries Board were frequent. What mechanism has the PF Government put in place to address the work stoppages at the company?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, the State Lotteries Board is currently facing many problems such as work stoppages because of poor performance. Some years back, when there was no competition in the lottery business, the company seemed to be performing well. At the moment, it is facing stiff competition because of the liberalised economy. However, we are considering the options that are there to chart the way forward in improving the status of the company. We will inform the public when we come up with the way forward.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, following that very brief picture painted by the hon. Minister regarding this company, can she educate us on its shareholding structure and also throw some light on the composition of its board?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, that is a new question, but given time, we can get back to the House and give a proper answer.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, as a shadow minister of finance, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … I would like to state that the State Lotteries Board is wholly owned by the Government. It is not owned by individuals. Let me now ask my question. What measures do you intend to put in place to ensure that this company is recapitalised and that it works like other international lottery organisations?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, in my last answer, I indicated that we are engaged in consultations regarding the way forward. Once we come up with a positive one, we will communicate it to the public.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, apart from giving the status of the company’s performance, the hon. Deputy Minister has indicated that the State Lotteries Board is there to serve every Zambian. However, we have come to realise that the State Lotteries Board mostly benefits the people along the line of rail. There are a number of people who live in the rural areas who have not been benefiting from the services of the State Lotteries Board, and yet they are taxpayers. When will the State Lotteries Board extend its services to the rural communities in the countryside?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, the main question wanted us to explain to the public the current status of the State Lotteries Board. At this time, we cannot talk about extending the services of a company that is not performing very well to the rural areas.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Until such a time that the company’s performance improves, we cannot talk about extending its services to other areas.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

___________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 18/01 – (Judiciary – Headquarters – K86,764,488,057).

(Consideration resumed)

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4066, Activity 006 – Job Description/Specialisation – K100,000,000. Why has this activity been increased from K20,000,000 to K100,000,000?

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Chairperson, Programme 4066, Activity 006 – Job Description/Specialisation – K100,000,000 is required to meet the costs of evaluating job performances and orienting newly-employed officers. The increase is due to newly-created positions.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 011 – HIV/AIDS Prevention and Treatment – K100,000,000. What kind of prevention and treatment for HIV/AIDS has been allocated K100,000,000?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4008, Activity 011 – HIV/AIDS Prevention and Treatment – K100,000,000 will be required to meet the cost of sensitisation programmes and the purchase of food supplements. The increment is due to the increased number of activities on HIV/AIDS awareness.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/02 – (Judiciary – Supreme Court – K4,303,978,556).

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! I am being distracted and, therefore, cannot concentrate. Please, consult quietly.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 311, Programme 4015, Activity 011 – Presidential Petition – K500,000,000. May I find out from the hon. Minister of Justice why we are budgeting for a Presidential petition. Which President is being petitioned and by whom?

Laughter

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the activity should, actually, be properly titled ‘Election Petitions’. Essentially, this provision will be required to meet the costs for Parliamentary petitions.

I thank you.¬

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Chairperson, I would like clarification on page 311, Programme 4052, Activity 002 – Procurement of Equipment. There is no provision for the procurement of new equipment at the Supreme Court next year. What is the explanation for this?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this activity will not be undertaken next year.

I thank you, Sir.¬

Vote 18/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/03 – (Judiciary – High Court – K4,802,257,534).

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, I would like to have an explanation on page 313, Programme 4012, Activity 023 – Rehabilitation of High Court Building in Lusaka. I do not understand why we do not want to rehabilitate the High Court in Lusaka, considering the dilapidated state that it is still in.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this activity is budgeted for under Programme 4012 of Vote 18/01.

I thank you, Sir.¬

Vote 18/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/05 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – K8, 692,073,085).

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 318, Programme 4012, Activity 029 – Rehabilitation of Local Courts – Nil. This year, there was a provision of K750, 000,000, but there is no provision for next year. What is the reason for this, particularly that there is one local court that requires rehabilitation in my constituency? 

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this activity was budgeted for in the previous year.

I thank you, Sir.¬

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, my question has not been answered. Why is this activity not budgeted for next year?

The Chairperson: Well, to the extent that you are saying that it was budgeted for the previous year, I do not know whether, hon. Minister, you mean the funds were released this year or will be released next year because his issue is with the budget for next year.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, as I said, this activity was budgeted for this year and it is ongoing.

I thank you, Sir.¬

Interruptions

Vote 18/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/06 – (Judiciary – Small Claims Court – K2, 157,844,695).

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 4001, Activity 010 – Commissioners’ Honorariums – K350, 000,000 and Unit 3, Programme 4001, Activity 010 – Commissioners’ Honorariums – K200, 000,000. What is this money for since this is a new term that has been inserted in the Budget?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this activity will be used to pay small claims court commissioners’ allowances. I am not sure of the second part of the question on Unit 3.

The Chairperson: Can you repeat your question, Mr Namulambe.¬

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, there is Unit 1, Programme 4001, Activity 010 – Commissioners’ Honorariums – K350,000,000 and also Unit 3, Programme 4001, Activity 010 – Commissioners’ Honorariums – K200,000,000. What is this money for and why is it appearing on both General Administration (PRP) and General Administration.?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, there are two regions. One is in the Southern Region and the other one is the Northern Region.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Suziba kubelanga, Namulambe?

Vote 18/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/11 – (Judiciary – Subordinate Courts – Copperbelt – K6,961,147.78).

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, on Page 327, Programme 4052, Activity 014 – Procurement of Magistrates Houses – K700,000,000, there is a reduction from K1,500,000,000 to K700,000,000. Why is there a reduction, considering that there is no house for a magistrate in Mpongwe?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is due to limitations in the budgetary allocations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, that being the case, can the hon. Minister indicate whether part of the K700,000,000 will be for the purchase of a house for the magistrate in Mpongwe?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the answer is, yes.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/16 – (Judiciary – High Court – Northern Province – K3,562,759,140).

Mr Mulenga (Chinsali): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 4015, Activity  002 – Court Sessions – K10,000,000, I have noticed that there is a reduction of about K50,653,980 on court sessions. Does it mean that the court sessions have been reduced so much that they will cost only K10,000,000?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the decrease is due to budgetary constraints, but it will be cushioned by the headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/18 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – Northern Province – K12, 681,752,807).

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 012 ─ Construction of Court Buildings – K2, 500,000,000. This seems to be a new activity. Which court buildings are being referred to?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the local court in question is Muyombe Local Court.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/21 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – Southern Province – K8,942,556,799).

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairman, Programme 4012, Activity 076 – Construction of Local Courts – K500,000,000. There is no specific local court indicated. I would like to ask the able hon. Minister of Justice to make a virement and provide for Chikuni and Mayaba Local courts that are not indicated. I have also noted that Programme 4012, Activity 168 – Rehabilitation of Mwanachingwala Local Court Buildings – K500,000,000, there was an allocation of K500,000,000 for this year. Then there is another K500,000,000 for next year, bringing the total allocation to K1 billion for this particular local court. I would like to know why there is another provision.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this provision will be required to meet the cost of constructing Maamba Local Court. Programme 4012, Activity 168 – Rehabilitation of Mwanachingwala Local Court Buildings – K500,000,000 will be required to construct a modern local court, Mwanachingwala Local Court Buildings.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, this year, there is Programme 4012, Activity 168 – Rehabilitation of Mwanachingwala Local Court Buildings – K500,000,000 and another allocation of K500,000,000 to the same activity for next year, and yet we are waiting to build courts such as Sipatunyana Local Court. Why are you allocating funds to the same court?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, we cannot leave the project half completed. We have to complete it.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/22 – Judiciary – High Court – Eastern Province – K3,572,761,366).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairman, I seek clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 018 – HIV/AIDS Care and Support – Nil.  This year, there is a provision of K9,234,308, but there is no provision for next year. Why is this so?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairman, this activity will not be undertaken next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Chairman: You are asking while seated. Does the hon. Member want the Chair to pose the question on his behalf? Therefore, I will put the question.

Laughter

Vote 18/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/28 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – North Western Province – K7,837,126,548).

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairman, Programme 4012, Activity 171 – Rehabilitation of Chikoti, Musaka, Mikula, Mikumbi, Matebo, Kayombo and – K500,000,000. The last word in that activity is ‘and’. I would like to find out whether that ‘and’ includes Ingwe Local Court in Kasempa or there is another local court which is missing there?

Laughter

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairman, the ‘and’ after Kayombo is a typographical error. The courts involved are Chikoti, Mikula, Mikumbi, Mpidi, Matebo and Kayombo.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairman, on page 358, Programme 4012, Activity 171 – Rehabilitation of Chikoti Musaka, Mikula, Mikumbi, Matebo, Kayombo and – K500,000,000. There is a reduction from K1,200,000,000 to K500,000. I would like to find out why there is a reduction when local courts such as the one in Chavuma need serious rehabilitation.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairman, there is a reduction because the major works were done in the previous year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairman, on Programme 4012, Activity 171 – Rehabilitation of Chikoti Musaka, Mikula, Mikumbi, Matebo, Kayombo and – K500,000,000, when I asked about Ingwe, the hon. Minister said that it was not included. When is it going to be included because, currently, people sit under trees to conduct court sessions and, therefore, there are no court sessions when it is raining?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairman, that is a policy issue to be decided by the ministry at an appropriate time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairman, on Programme 4012, Activity 171 – Rehabilitation of Chikoti Musaka, Mikula, Mikumbi, Matebo, Kayombo and – K500,000,000, the hon. Minister said that the reduction is due to the fact that the major works have been done. However, no major works have been carried out at local courts such as the one in Chavuma. Why is there such a marked reduction?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairman, there is still some money which will be used on those courts in due course.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 4012, Activity 171 – Rehabilitation of Chikoti Musaka, Mikula, Mikumbi, Matebo, Kayombo and – K500,000,000, the hon. Deputy Minister said that major works were carried out on these courts. What major works are these? Was that another typographical error?

The Chairperson: I recall that when the hon. Minister gave an answer on that, he said major works had been done. The hon. Member for Kalomo Central wants to know the major works which were done, but I do not think that we should go into those details. I think that the point has been made that some major works have been carried out and what has remained will be done later unless hon. Members are disputing that nothing was done.

Vote 18/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – K324,936,177,486).

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Kambwili): Mr Chairperson, it is my honour and privilege to be given this opportunity to present the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs 2012 budget which stands at K324,936,177,486.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, is mandated to articulate and implement the Zambian foreign policy. Among the specific portfolio functions of the ministry, as contained in the Government Gazette No. 547 of 2004, are:

(i) co-ordinating and maintaining international relations;

(ii) facilitating the signing of international treaties;

(iii) repatriation of destitute Zambians;

(iv) pledges and contributions to the United Nations (UN) agencies and other international organisations; and

(v) international and regional co-operation.

Mr Chairperson, the focus of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has shifted from traditional diplomacy to economic diplomacy, including peace and stability. Due to the thrust of liberalisation, the Zambian Government has strategic positions which focus on international relations that are primarily on economic diplomacy in line with the PF Manifesto. This is important in order to foster a definite developmental path which will bring about prosperity for the people of Zambia.

The ministry is further mandated to promote capital investment and other investment opportunities which is an integral part of our development agenda. In this regard, my ministry will collaborate with other sectors in facilitating and synergising efforts that will create a conducive environment for investment in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, in pursuit of its goals of promoting economic diplomacy, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs shall endeavour to ensure that Zambian businesses are able to take full advantage of the prevailing environment to enter into strategic partnerships with their international counterparts in the promotion of international trade diversification of the economy.

In order to continue accruing and sustaining economic benefits, Zambia has maintained active participation in strategic partnerships such as the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA), the European Union (EU)-Africa Partnership, Turkey-Africa Partnership, Forum on China-Africa Co-operation, Africa-India Partnership, Africa-South America Co-operation, and the African Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA), to mention but a few. At all these international fora, my ministry shall endeavour to ensure that there is efficient and effective participation so as to promote Zambia’s image and derive maximum economic benefits.

Mr Chairperson, as a member of the UN, Zambia is obliged to participate in the session of the United Nations General Assembly and numerous meetings of other UN agencies. Effective participation in the deliberation in the United Nations General Assembly is important as it provides an opportunity for Zambia to state its position on various issues. It is also worth noting that Zambia benefits significantly from the UN through its agencies such as the Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO), the United Nations International Children Fund (UNICEF), the United Nations Industrial Development Organisation (UNIDO) and the International Labour Organisation (ILO), to mention but a few. Although the cost of participating in these fora is enormous, the benefits that accrue to Zambia are above the cost.

Mr Chairperson, the UN offers a unique forum for many bilateral processes dealing with issues beyond national boundaries. Therefore, it is my belief that Zambia will continue to participate in more UN meetings as long as there are standing benefits to our country. Likewise, the participation at the African Union (AU) and other various regional organisations where issues of mutual concern and benefits are discussed.

Sir, peace and security remain one of the main premises of Zambia’s foreign policy. Therefore, the ministry will continue to give priority to regional and international efforts that seek to foster peace and security as a pre-condition to meaningful development.

Mr Chairperson, this august House may wish to note that one of the main thrusts of our foreign policy is the maintenance of good neighbourliness and forging good relationships with other countries in line with our national interest. In this regard, Zambia is actively engaged in bilateral relations in the region and beyond. Through participation in Joint Permanent Commissions, trade delegations, tourism fares and cultural exchanges, Zambia is able to accrue economic, social and cultural benefits that have a direct impact on the lives of the people, hence the need for a budget that will sustain all these activities.

Mr Chairperson, this year, despite the size of the resource envelope, the ministry tried, as much as possible, to implement most of the planned activities. Some of the major programmes implemented include the following:

 (i) the ministry played a crucial role when Zambia was the Chair of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Organ on Peace, Security and Defence for the period August, 2010 to August, 2011;

(ii) the ministry led deliberations and co-ordinated the implementation of the directive from the organ as well as facilitated Zambia’s participation in various SADC meetings. Zambia handed over the Chairmanship of the SADC Organ on Peace, Security and Defence to the Republic of South Africa during the last SADC Summit held in Luanda, Angola, from 11th to 18th August, 2011. However, Zambia remains a member of the SADC Organ Troika and will, therefore, be compelled to host some meetings in 2012;

(iii) Zambia is currently Chair of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region which will be handed over to Uganda at the forthcoming summit in December, 2011. During her Chairmanship, Zambia hosted the Special Summit on the Ilegal Exploitation of Natural Resources held in Lusaka, on 15th December, 2010;

 The Heads of State and Government for the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region approved the six tools of development with a view to curbing the illegal exploitation of natural resources;

(iv) Zambia hosted the Africa Growth Opportunity Act (AGOA) Forum in June, 2011. The meeting gave Zambian entrepreneurs a unique opportunity to access the United Stated of America market with their commodities and to discuss ways in which trade between the two countries could be enhanced;

(v) facilitation of Zambia’s participation at the 3rd Tikad Ministerial follow-up meeting which revealed progress on the implementation of the Yokohama Action Plan and the additional pledges made by the Government of Japan;

(vi) facilitation of Zambia’s attendance to other international meetings such as the United Nations General Assembly and the AU;

(vii) facilitation of Zambia’s participation at the 2nd Session of the Zambia/Brazil Joint Committee of Co-operation at which the commission discussed and witnessed the signing of the Complementary Agreement on Technical Co-operation between Zambia and Brazil to implement the project on strengthening the National Strategic Plan for Human Immuno Deficiency Virus (HIV) and Acquired Immuno Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS).

Mr Chairperson, you may wish to know that the ministry is currently in the process of reviewing Zambia’s foreign policy to align it with our national interest and the vision of the PF. It is disheartening and disappointing to note that the previous Government administered the Ministry of Foreign Affairs without an approved foreign policy.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I draw your attention to the Medium Term Expenditure Framework 2012 to 2014. In this period, the ministry will focus on the following:

(i) review and implement the joint permanent commissions of co-operation. In this regard, Zambia will host, at least, four joint permanent commission meetings and attend four others in some countries;

(ii) participate in international fora such as the United Nations General Assembly, AU, Non-Aligned Movement, Commonwealth Heads of State and Government Meeting, SADC, COMESA and the International Conference of the Great Lakes Region as well as other international meetings;

(iii) continue to construct and purchase chanceries and residences in some missions in order to reduce the Government expenditure incurred in high rentals; and

(iv) facilitate Zambia’s participation at the 67th to 69th Regular Session of the UN General Assembly and follow up on implementation of issues arising therefrom.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEESS in the 
Chair]

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was outlining the focus on the MTEF. I was saying that my ministry will, among others, do the following:

(v) facilitate and undertake SADC activities such as the Heads of State Summit, SADC Organ on Peace and Security, Council of Ministers, Sectoral Technical Meeting, SADC National Committee and Extra-Ordinary Summits;

(vi) facilitate the full operationalisation of the Levy Mwanawasa Regional Centre for Democracy and Good Governance by securing appropriate and permanent accommodation;

(vii) participate in election monitoring, peace building and conflict resolution;

(viii) facilitate Zambia’s participation at the 3rd South Africa Summit set for next year from 15th to 16th May, 2012;

(ix) facilitate Zambia’s participation at the Common Market for East and Southern Africa (COMESA) to ensure that Zambia accrues benefits through accessing huge markets from the economic block; and

(x) facilitate Zambia’s participation in the forum of China-Africa Co-operation in July, 2012.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to conclude by thanking this August House as well as other ministries and institutions for their invaluable support which enables the ministry to effectively implement Zambia’s foreign policy. I also wish to appeal to the hon. Members of this august House to support my ministry’s budget as we endeavor to articulate and implement our mandate for the realisation of our national interests abroad.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to commend the statement that Zambia will shift the focus of its missions abroad from politics to economics. However, it will be important for the hon. Minister to shed more light on how the ministry will go about ensuring that our missions abroad are used to achieve economic ends beyond political ones.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I would like to state that I support the Budget for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. However, as I support it, I would like to state that there is a need for correction of the comment in the hon. Minister’s statement that the previous Government operated without an approved foreign policy.

Mr Chairperson, when I was transferred to the ministry, I found a foreign policy, but what was not brought to the House was the one which was being revised. I think that is what he has also found. I think that he should differentiate between the two.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to state that at the time the MMD Government was leaving office, the relationship between Zambia and other countries in the region, Africa and globally was very good and Zambia was held in very high esteem. For instance, when Zambia was not present at some meetings, they would be postponed to allow Zambia to participate.

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: I would, therefore, wish the new Government and, particularly, my colleague, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to ensure that this is upheld.

Mr Chairperson, the MMD Government practised economic diplomacy.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: To achieve that, we introduced positions of trade attachés and economic advisers.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia, through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and in conjunction with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, brought in a lot of foreign direct investments. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs acts as a bridge. It establishes relationships with foreign countries. In this regard, I am happy to note that there is a provision in the Budget for opening the latest, mission, the Ankara Office, in Turkey. This is one of the achievements of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Sir, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to help the Minister of Foreign Affairs, particularly on the Levy Mwanawasa Regional Centre for Democracy and Good Governance. Zambia, because of its observance of good governance principles and the way it stands as relates observance of democratic principles, was chosen to host this institute.

However, in the Budget, there is a provision of about K12 million which I believe is not enough to make this a success because this has been long overdue. I would also like the Zambia Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies to be given special attention. The vision we had, which I believe the PF Government should have, was to turn it into a regional training institute. We were the first to establish it and that is why we shifted it from where it was squatting to the new premises. This was done with a view to enhancing it.

Mr Chairperson, to achieve all this, we need the right staff. Having been at the ministry, I am aware that there are many capable brains there. I hope that the new Government will not wholesomely remove those brains at the ministry. Some of those who have been recalled are quite brilliant. I think the hon. Minister should treat each person’s case on merit vis-á-vis qualifications and performance rather than look at the fact that these people served when the MMD was in Government.

Sir, I would also like to indicate that the Office of the Co-ordinator, Great Lakes Region, is important. The hon. Minister indicated that Zambia was the current chair. However, we do not have permanent premises. At the time we were leaving office, we were looking for office space, and I hope that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will help the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to acquire permanent offices for the Office of the Co-ordinator for the Great Lakes Region.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I wish my colleague all the success. I also wish to indicate that when he is in a Foreign Affairs office, particularly, when he is out of the country, he must leave local politics behind and go there to represent Zambia as a national leader.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Even here!

Mr Pande: We can do politics back home, but when we are out there, we should ensure that we speak one language for Zambia. This also applies to us, as Opposition Members of Parliament. We can do all our politics here, but when we go outside the country, we must ensure that we safeguard the dignity and integrity of Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Zambia can only be brought down by us, through the way we talk about her and the way we behave when we are outside the country.

My colleague, Hon. Kambwili, besides the President, is now diplomat number one in the country. The expectations of your diplomacy are extremely high. He must exclude himself from certain activities no matter how compelling they are, just to preserve the integrity of this country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to make a quick comment on the Vote on the Floor.

Sir, I stand here to support the Vote for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in total. Further, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has clearly indicated to us that promoting international relations is one of its objectives. Indeed, I agree with the hon. Minister.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to put on record the fact that Zambia has a number of attachés amongst the diplomats who are serving in foreign missions. However, to my dismay, it has been discovered that Zambia does not have education attachés. This has led to the country losing a number of opportunities in the education sector.

Sir, the best example is what transpired in India last year. When we, as a Committee, visited India early this year, it was brought to our attention that Zambia had lost over 100 scholarships. We tried to find out from the High Commissioner what could have led to that and were informed that the contributing factor was that there was no educationist to guide the Zambian foreign mission in New Delhi.

As the Committee was winding up its tour, it realised that it would be prudent for the Zambian Government to appoint someone with an education background to be in charge of looking into education matters.

 Since Zambia is trying to use education as a panacea for development, I feel that it is high time that the Government of the Republic of Zambia appointed education attachés. Once that is done, we shall definitely forge ahead in terms of education.

Mr Chairperson, in addition, I would like to emphasise that there is a need for the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to liaise with his counterpart in the Ministry of Education, Science and Vocational Training so that he can be guided on how best such appointments can be made.

With these remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Vote on the Floor of the House. I support the Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Sir, I would like to adopt the words by the hon. Member for Kasempa as my own. Indeed, the new hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon. Kambwili, is diplomat number one, considering the fact that he debated in such a calm manner today.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: That is how we expect him to be from now onwards and we salute him for that.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of the education attachés, if the hon. Member for Chilubi would ask for information, we would provide it to him. We have them in some missions. Perhaps, the mission he went to had a vacancy and we should lobby that it is filled.

Mr Chairperson, there are two issues that I would like to raise on this Budget. The first one is that I have noticed that, in the entire Budget, the salaries for all the officials at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, starting with the headquarters to the missions, Division I, Division II, Division III and the classified daily employees (CDEs) have remained the same. I do not know if all of them have reached the ceiling in their notches. I also would like to find out whether this Government does not intend to award any increment to the civil servants. You will notice, as we go through the Budget, that the salaries have remained static. This implies that all the employees in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs have reached the ceiling. Not even the annual incremental notches are provided for. We would like the hon. Minister to clarify whether all the employees in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs will not need to move a notch further or they have all reached the maximum.

Sir, I have further noticed that there are reductions in personal emoluments, and yet we have read in the media that most of the serving diplomats have been recalled. There are  expenses attached to that because new diplomats will have to be sent to the foreign missions. The new appointees will need to travel to assume their responsibilities and that is an expense. They will need to get settling in allowances and that too is an expense. Those whose contracts have been terminated will also need to be paid. Therefore, I do not know whether the Ministry of Foreign Affairs will bring these as supplementary expenditure and, if so, why will the people be made to suffer the waiting? I am saying so because those who have been and will be recalled will have to wait for their money until it is approved. I think there is a need to have a provision for this in the Budget.

Mr Chairperson, furthermore, the PF Government has indicated that it will professionalise the officials who are being appointed to serve in the foreign missions. We have seen that those who are perceived to have been MMD cadres are being recalled. We hope that this Government is not going to send people who are perceived to be PF members.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Sir, Zambia is a Christian nation, therefore, we believe that people should uphold the Christian values of being truthful by practising what they preach. As such, I would like the people who are being sent into the Foreign Service to be carrier diplomats and professionals so that we do not see an influx of people being recalled each time there is a change of Government. We, as MMD, know that we will come back into power and we would not want to recall the people who are in the Foreign Service.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Sir, all these people are Zambians. Besides, this aspect of referring to people as cadres must be brought to a stop. People will only say that if they do not understand the meaning of the word ‘cadre’. The tendency of saying, “He is an MMD cadre” is bad. We should only recall people if it is found that the Government in power had appointed non-Zambians into the Foreign Service. For as long as a person is Zambian and has the necessary qualifications, there is no need for them to be recalled simply on account of the change of Government. There is a need to serve the interests of all Zambians because the Government in power is there to serve the interests of all Zambians.

Sir, we, therefore, hope that the PF Government will post career diplomats into the Foreign Service and provide the funds, including allowances, for the people who are being recalled. Therefore, I would like the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to indicate whether there is a provision for these activities in the 2012 Budget because I have not seen it. Considering the fact that many of them have been recalled, we do not know if they are going to be paid. I would also like the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to indicate to this House whether the officials in the ministry are not going to be awarded any form of a notch increment or what they are awarded every year because the figures are static.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, in contributing to the Vote on the Floor, I will be brief. I will begin by saying that I would like to see a situation in which our missions abroad carry out some industrial intelligence work so that, as a country, we can learn good practices from other countries. It surprises me, sometimes, to find that India, which has more than 1 billion people, is able to provide services to its people. In Zambia, for example, Lusaka has a population of less than three million but, in some parts, even in the low density areas, there is no water and we just wonder what is happening. If countries that have bigger populations are able to provide such amenities to their people, why is Zambia, which has a smaller population, failing to do it? Let us learn good practices from the countries in which we have representation.

Mr Chairperson, the other point I would like to comment on is on industrialisation. We know that India is an industrial giant. Why are we not learning from it? Why can we not find out what it has which we do not have? One hon. Member in this House mentioned that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should work in conjunction with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. Let us learn from the countries where we have representation such as high commissions and embassies. Small countries such as Mauritius produce clothes for export while Zambia, which has all the raw materials and a number of industrial projects, is a great importer of clothes, including second-hand ones. We also grow cotton. Therefore, why are we failing to open textile factories? In fact, we import a lot of textiles from India and China. Those people who are in foreign missions at the expense of the taxpayers’ money should learn from other countries. In this regard, I would like to say that when the officials at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs travel, they should take with them some industrialists, including some hon. Members of this House, so that we can learn good practices from other countries. We have to see how these countries are industrialising so that we can also share that knowledge with Zambians and use it for the benefit of this country.

With those few words, I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to make some remarks on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Budget. From the outset, I wish to state that I support it. 

Mr Chairperson, Foreign Affairs is, indeed, one of the key portfolios in Government, in, at least, two respects. The first is with regard to safeguarding the peace of our country. In fact, there are countries in this world that I have known to maintain very low levels of military establishments, but have secured their peace because they have had very active diplomatic initiatives. Therefore, they have saved money that they would have spent on military hardware, large armies and air forces because the diplomatic work has ensured that they have security provided to them by allies. Maintenance of peace and stability, therefore, is a very big advantage that we expect to obtain from our Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Secondly, in this modern world, economic diplomacy, as my colleague, Hon. Kabinga Pande, who spoke earlier maintained, has become paramount. Through effective diplomatic work, it is possible to obtain grants (free gifts of money) from friendly Governments. Zambia has benefited a lot from such in the past. A good example of this is the Mass Media Complex, which came as a grant from the Japanese Government.

Mr Chairperson, it is also possible, through effective diplomacy, to get very soft loans from friendly Governments. Again, there are so many examples in Zambia of how, in the past, we were able to draw on this. The famous Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authourity (TAZARA) line came as a soft loan from the Chinese Government. This was way back in the 1970s and we are still paying that loan. The Tuta Road, I believe, falls in the same category.

Mr Chairperson, even in the 1980s, when we were surrounded by very hostile countries in the south, and we were fighting for the independence of Southern Africa, most of the weapons that we acquired came in as soft loans. It is, therefore, possible to get soft loans if we maintain effective diplomacy by creating friendships with other countries.

Mr Chairperson, in the recent years, we have seen that foreign direct investment (FDI) has become a very important factor in development. Countries such as Mauritius are what they are today because they have been able to attract the FDI. The transformation that China has undergone has had a lot to do with the FDI from Taiwan, which is just next door, as well as Europe and America. This is the money that has transformed countries such as China. We see the same thing in South Korea and Malaysia. All the Asian Tigers are what they are, today, because they managed to attract the FDI from Japan. This is how come, today, you can look at a Toshiba Computer that was made in Malaysia or Taiwan. To the country involved, it does not matter where the money came from. The most important factor is that jobs and wealth have been created. 

Finally, Sir, when we are hit by unexpected disasters, we are able to draw on the support of our friends. When we had serious droughts in the 1990s, in the first MMD Government, we were able to get some maize donations from our friends.

Hon. Government Member: Address the Chair!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, we have had floods and have received help from our friends. Economic diplomacy has, therefore, become very important and we urge the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to pay particular attention to the issue of foreign economic diplomacy because this can either build or destroy our country.

Sir, may I end by giving our colleague, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, some very friendly advice this afternoon. So far, I think that he has built the reputation of somebody who is against some nationalities.

Hon. Kambwili: Question!

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: I would like to give the hon. Minister some very friendly advice for the benefit of our country. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
 
Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, it will be good if the hon. Minister is seen to be balanced in the way he relates to all our friends in the world. I know that there are some nationalities that have committed crimes as seen in the past few days. Those must be punished but, at the same time, let us not forget that, in this country, there are sons, daughters and grand-daughters of ex-colonialists, who are busy abusing their workers on farms and factories. There are people of Asian origin who are busy abusing their workers on farms and in factories. In this country, there are indigenous people who are abusing their workers in factories and farms. With crime coming from all sectors of our population, therefore, let not the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs be in the forefront of appearing to focus on one particular nationality. This is not good for us. If I were him, in crime cases like that, I would withdraw into the background and let the relevant ministry, which is Home Affairs, deal with that … 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … so that I maintain my stature as diplomat number one.

It does not mean that those criminal elements will go scot-free. Let the person in charge of dealing with crime handle it while you focus on creating friendship with all the countries in the world.

Mr Chairperson, I hope that this friendly and very honest advice is acceptable to my colleague. However, it is up to him. Advice can be accepted or denied.

Mr Chairperson, those who do not have anything to contribute in this world, unfortunately, tend to heckle and champion irrelevant issues. As they say, “empty vessels …”  do what?

Hon. MMD Members: Make noise!

Dr Musokotwane: I thank you, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, let me thank all the hon. Members who have contributed and supported the budget estimates for my ministry.

To begin with, I want to assure those colleagues on your left, who have given me advice on my personal character and on the way I debate, that I have two voices. One voice is for when things are going alright and the other is for when things are going wrong. I will never change.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I believe in calling a spade a spade and not a spade a pick. If anyone is going to make a mistake, I will not hesitate to use my second voice and will have no apologies, whatsoever, to make.

Mr Chisala: Hear, hear! Uli mwaume!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I would like to assure Hon. Dr Musokotwane that I do not absolutely target any nationality in the execution of my duty. However, I will still not behave the way the hon. Ministers under the MMD Government used to. I am very proactive.

Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I have two roles. I am Member of Parliament for Roan and Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: If something goes wrong in my constituency, I will go there and sort it out.

Mr Lubinda: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: I am not going to hide under economic diplomacy.

I wonder why those who belonged to the MMD Government are still behaving in the same way they used to when they were in power. Every time one mentions the Chinese, they seem to get jittery and worried.

Mr Lubinda: Because of bicycles!

Mr Kambwili: What have the Chinese given you that other people have not been given?

Mr Lubinda: Bicycles!

Mr Kambwili: When a Chinese person makes a mistake, we will handle him or her the same way we handle everybody.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We are not going to treat them with kid gloves. Never!

The situation that happened in Luanshya in which our young children were being molested by the Chinese is regrettable. No reasonable leader will keep quiet and behave as if all is well when such things happen. A leader who would keep quiet when such things happen is not normal upstairs.

The Deputy Chairperson: Having said that I hope you will now concentrate on winding up.

Mr Kambwili: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, before I get to individual issues, I would like to state that the Chinese are our friends and we respect them. When I went to Luanshya, I even told them that we need them to help us to develop Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Even when we were in the Opposition, we used to say that we wanted the Chinese to help us to develop this country. What we hate is the behaviour of bringing foreign labourers here, insulting and beating up Zambians as well as paying them lowly. This Government will make sure that things change.

Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Hon. Mulusa wants to know how we are going to improve our economic diplomacy. I wish to inform him that, we will do this, Mr Chairperson, by only appointing economic attachés who are trained unlike what was happening under the MMD Government.

Sir, I do not want to mention names of some cadres who were sent to missions abroad as economic attachés, but with no requisite qualifications at all. What do we expect such people to do for Zambia? They had no capacity even to negotiate for any trade links between Zambia and the countries where they were sent. I can rest assure the hon. Member that we will focus on appointing only those with requisite qualifications as economic attachés. All the cadres who were sent by the previous administration will be recalled. We will make sure that we do not make the mistake that the previous administration made of sending unqualified cadres to work in foreign missions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Jeff Kaande!

Mr Kambwili: We shall also promote and encourage trade and investment activities in our missions.

Mr Chairperson, if you were to follow what is happening closely, you would find that most of the diplomats in our missions just read newspapers the whole day. I have read some of the monthly reports coming from the missions and only, maybe, 3 per cent have managed to create some trade and economically beneficial links between Zambian and the countries where they are. There is no benefit that Zambia is getting at all from some countries where there are some economic attachés. There is absolutely no serious work in some missions. The usual reports that come just talk about the political situation in those countries and how those at the mission went to a dinner with vice-presidents and ministers in those countries. We want to stop that kind of behaviour and insist that the economic attachés use the monthly meetings as platforms on which to explain what initiatives that are to benefit Zambia economically they made in a particular month.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Failure to that, we will bring them back.

Mr Chairperson, I have failed to see the foreign policy which Hon. Kabinga Pande said is at the ministry. I do not think that I cannot find the foreign policy just because it has been locked up somewhere. The fact still remains that there is no foreign policy approved by Cabinet in place. What I found is a draft which is being worked on. It is not ready to date. Since I am proactive, I have instructed my officers to finish working on the draft policy within two months so that we can take it to Cabinet for approval.

Sir, nonetheless, I agree with Hon. Kabinga Pande that economic diplomacy was being pursued by the MMD Government. However, it was being pursued with wrong staff. You do not expect somebody who has no qualifications in the relevant field to give you results. Yes, you had the will, but were using wrong tools. We are going to correct that situation.

Regarding the Levy Mwanawasa Regional Centre for Democracy and Good Governance, I wish to inform Hon. Kabinga Pande that we are committed to making sure that we provide office accommodation and requisite money for the officers who will work at this particular important centre which belongs to the Great Lakes Region. We shall make sure that money is provided in our budget to ensure that this office is set up.

Mr Chairperson, I also would like to tell Hon. Kabinga Pande that, today, I launched a degree programme in International Relations at Chrismar Hotel. That should show that we are committed to making sure that Zambia posts diplomats who are qualified.

Under the MMD Government, we only had the Zambia Institute for Diplomacy and International Studies (ZIDIS) offering a diploma qualification to our diplomats. However, I think we will move a step further by making sure that we provide a better cadre of diplomats by offering them training at Bachelor of Arts (BA) in International Relations level.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Hon. Namulambe questioned the method we are using to recall diplomats and wondered whether there is a budget line for that activity in the Budget. I will bear with him for what he said because he was not Minister of Foreign Affairs and, probably, in their Cabinet, they never used to share information. In every budget, there is a provision for recalling and sending off diplomats. It is an on-going process. If you look at this year’s Budget, there was about K600 million for that exercise. In next year’s Budget, we are providing K896 million. There is a budget line for that exercise because it is expected that at some point, diplomats may be recalled from their missions and others may be sent to replace them. If Hon. Namulambe cared to read the Yellow Book properly, he would have found out that this provision is there.

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear! Wamvela, mwana! Usiye kukambakamba!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, I would like to assure Hon. Kabinga Pande that I am a very seasoned administrator and will not let the country down. You should ask the officers in the ministry how I have conducted myself in the last two meetings that I have attended. For your own information, the British Government wrote to His Excellency the President telling him that this country has an articulate hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: They said that they were impressed with the way he conducted himself at the just-ended Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM). That is something which you cannot take away from me. I can promise you that I will take foreign affairs to greater heights.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Hon. Chisala talked about education attachés. We have them in our missions. Probably in India where he went, there was a vacancy for an education attaché. He said that we lost 100 Indian scholarships because we did not have an education attaché at the mission in that country.

Mr Chisala: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: There is absolutely no documentation or evidence to show that Zambia lost the 100 scholarships. If, indeed, Hon. Chisala has this evidence, he can bring it to the ministry and we will make a follow up. I wish to thank Hon. Chisala for that contribution. I also wish to tell him that we have taken note of it. We will make sure that we send an education attaché to India.

Ms Imenda talked about training our diplomats in economic affairs and industrialisation. I would like to assure the hon. Member that some of our diplomats are well trained in these issues. I want to inform the House that we have managed to attract a grant of K300 million from the United States of America (USA). This morning, I was speaking to officials from the Millennium Challenge Corporation (MCC) in the USA, where our ambassador, Mrs Siwale, managed to convince them to give us K300 million for water reticulation and the drainage system in Lusaka.

Thus, it is not true that all our diplomats are not qualified. As the PF Government, we will concentrate on increasing the number of diplomats who have qualifications. Of course, we also hope to train others who were not sent to our missions abroad based on their political affiliation so that we can benefit from their expertise.

Mr Chairperson, I agree with Hon. Dr Musokotwane that peace can be achieved through diplomatic initiatives. He can rest be assured that we will not relent in making sure that we build on the peace that has existed in Zambia from Independence to date. Hon. Dr Musokotwane also said that we need to be proactive in accessing and negotiating for grants. However, I am disappointed that despite the Indian Government making a US$500 million available as a grant to the previous Government for the past three years for projects, the MMD Government failed to access it.

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Mr Kambwili: For three years, the Indian Government kept on writing to the previous Government, asking it to come up with projects, but it failed. There is correspondence to that effect. As for us, we are going to make sure that we make use of this US$500 million that the Indian Government is ready to give us. I would like to assure Hon. Dr Musokotwane that we shall be proactive in the area of accessing grants.

Dr Musokotwane interjected.

Mr Kambwili: It is a grant, Hon. Dr Musokotwane. No wonder you keep bicycles.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: I would like to thank all those who contributed to the debate on the estimates of expenditure for my ministry. I also wish to thank all those who supported the estimates of expenditure for my ministry quietly.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Why is it that it is the Executive that has hon. Members who specialise in debating while seated? Please, desist from that practice.

VOTE 17/01 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Headquarters – K10,695,547,731).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to seek clarification on page 261, Programme 3011, Activity 019 – Information and Communication Technology – Nil. There is a provision of K24,399,000 this year, but there is no provision for next year. I also seek clarification on page 262, Programme 3084, Activity 002 – Tender Adverts and Publication – Nil. This year, there is a provision of K29,484,010, but there is nothing for next year. May I know why this is so.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3011, Activity 019 – Information and Communication Technology – Nil will not be undertaken in 2012 following the computerisation of the ministry.  As for Programme 3084, Activity 002 – Tender Adverts and Publication – Nil, this activity will be catered for under Activity 005 – Ministerial Tender Committee Meetings – K53,000,000 under the same programme.

I thank you.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 260, Programme 3000, Activities 001 to 004. From 2010 to 2012, the money which has been allocated to salaries has been the same. There has been no increment whatsoever. May I know why. I also seek clarification on page 261, Programme 3045, Activity 004 – Transportation of Diplomats – K856,857,321. This allocation has been increased from K680,057,554 to K856,857,321. Does this include repatriation of diplomats or this transportation is the courtesy given to the diplomats who come to visit Zambia?

 The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr Lungu): Mr Chairperson, I notice that the hon. Member wants to know why the allocation for salaries in Programme 3000, Activities 001 to 004 are the same from 2010 to 2012. We have anticipated that salary increments have been budgeted for centrally by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning in next year’s Budget.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: What about Programme 3045, Activity 004 – Transportation of Diplomats – K856,857,321.

Mr Kambwili: Sir, I answered that question in the policy statement when I said that this provision is always there in every Budget. The diplomats in question are those who are recalled and those going to report to our missions abroad. That is what that provision is for.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, the general overview is that the ministry …

Mr Chisala: Iwe, landa page. Namailo tawalandile.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are being guided by other chairpersons. Please, proceed.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, the general overview of the ministry we are dealing with now is that there is some reduction almost everywhere …

The Deputy Chairperson: Give the page, programme and activity to help the Executive follow your query.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 260, Programme 3002, Activity 009 – International Labour Day – K40,085,862. I also seek clarification on the same page on Programme 3008, Activity 001 – Gender Mainstreaming – 11,194,792 and Activity 002 – HIV/AIDS Workplace Activities – K39,904,000. All these allocations have been reduced. There is also a reduction on Page 261, Programme 3012, Activity 013 – Maintenance of Buildings and Rehabilitation of Infrastructure – K500,000,000 from K600,000,000. May I know why there is this general reduction.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3002, Activity 009  – International Labour Day – K40,085,862, we promised the people of Zambia that, as the PF Government, we were going to make sure that we are prudent in saving Government resources. In the past, 100 people were taken to participate in the Labour Day celebrations and suits and everything were bought for them. We have, however, reduced the number of participants. There is no reason for us to spend K50 million on that. We are going to spend K40 million so that we can save money to go to other sectors of the economy.

Equally, on Programme 3008, Activity 001 – Gender Mainstreaming – 11,194,792, the reduction is due to reduced gender activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Chairperson, on Page 263, Programme 3009, Activity 004 – Audit Inspections of Missions Abroad – K125, 000,000, the figure has reduced from K211, 880,000 to K125, 000,000, which is quite significant. Does it mean that we shall now not be prudent in inspecting the missions abroad to promote financial accountability?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, the audits of missions is an on-going process. Every year, there are missions that are earmarked to be audited. Therefore, most of the missions were audited and there are yet to be audited. When the last one is audited, that is when new audits will be started from the point at which they were initially started. Therefore, the money that we have provided is enough to cover this activity.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I did not get the explanation on Programme 3000, Activities 001 to 004 by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs properly. He said that they are budgeted for centrally, but why is there a provision for them here, if there is a central provision? If that is the case, how much is the money because, here, it is not even indicating the normal notch increments. Further, on the other question on Programme 3045, Activity 004 – Transportation of Diplomats – K856,857,321, many diplomats that have been recalled. In my view, K856, 857,321 is not enough for the people who are going to be sent to the missions abroad and those that are being recalled. Does this include repatriation because it is just talking about transportation? This could mean that you will offer transport to the diplomats to move from the airport to the mission.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, what the hon. Deputy Minister said, and I will be very slow because it appears my comrade does not understand very quickly, …

The Deputy Chairperson: There are no comrades here.

Mr Kambwili: The former hon. Minister.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: … was that we are waiting for the unions to negotiate before we give salary increments. However, we have centrally provided the money for salary increments under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. If you read through this Budget, most of the ministries have not been given that increment because it has been budgeted for under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Secondly, transportation and repatriation are two different activities. Hon. Namulambe, this is simple English.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: Transportation is moving people from their homes to the airport and putting them on a flight to Zambia. The money to pay for their luggage and other things has been budgeted for under another programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishiba (Kafulafuta): Mr Chairperson, on Page 262, Programme 3084, Activity 100 – Inspection of Government Assets in Missions Nil, this year, there is a provision of K124,092,010, but, next year, there is no provision. Can the hon. Minister clarify whether this process has been suspended or state how inspection will be carried out in the missions abroad?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3084, Activity 100 – Inspection of Government Assets in Missions Nil, this year, there was a requirement, I am sure Hon. Kabinga Pande will agree with me, to inspect the mission buildings because they were reported to be dilapidated. The inspection of all the missions was done. However, some have not been inspected, but the money is still here. Therefore, we are not just going to be doing inspections every year. It is a one-off thing and it has been done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Masumba (Mufumbwe): Mr Chairperson, on Page 261, Programme 3032, Activity 001 – IFMIS Implementation – K33,899,050, the 2011 supplementary estimates for this activity and the authourised figure of K41,534,00 were quite more reasonable, but it has been reduced to K33,899,050 in2012. May I know from the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs why the allocation has been reduced?

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3032, Activity 001 – IFMIS Implementation – K33,899,050, the decrease is due to the reduction in capital costs, as most of the hardware and training costs were incurred in 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, on Page 260, Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K713,857,258, that has been reduced by K9,019,078,760. I, probably, did not get the reason for the reduction from the policy statement. Could the hon. Minister explain that significant reduction on Other Emoluments?

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, most of the officers have already taken leave and have been paid their leave dues.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/02 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Lubumbashi – K5,929,336,404).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, on page 264, Programme 3007, Activity 001 – Goods and Services – Nil. In this year’s Budget, there is a provision of K13, 095,000. In next year’s Budget, there is no provision. Does it mean that come the end of this year, all the arrears in that mission will be cleared?

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3007, Activity 001 – Goods and Services – Nil this was not budgeted for because it is catered for under Programme 3001─ General Administration.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, on page 264, Programme 3000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K178, 166,067, I have noticed that there is an increase in the provision of salaries. I do not know whether this programme was not budgeted for by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning as per earlier answer. Secondly, on the same page, Programme 3012, Activity 010 – Rehabilitation of Properties – K380, 260,000, this year, there is K320, 000,000 and, next year, there will be K380, 260,000. Do these rehabilitation works continue going on without a reduction?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, as regards Programme 3000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K178, 166,067, we should differentiate between the salaries of our diplomats and the local staff. Diplomats do not negotiate for salary increments. They get a well-known notch added to their salaries. Therefore, for them, a provision was provided because we know what is expected whereas, for local employees, we have to wait for the union.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 17/03 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Washington – K12,838,625,798).

Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, on page 265, Programme 3001, Activity 011 – Utility Bills – K386,594,736, this budget is close to three times the authorised one for water. What has necessitated this very high anticipation of water bills?

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the increase is due to the rise in the cost of utilities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, on page 265, Programme 3000, Activities 001 – Salaries Division I – K717,110,424, 002 – Salaries Division II – K37,152,840 and 005 – Other Emoluments – K11,259,581,354, we have just been told that the increments here are flat. Why is there this inconsistency?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, diplomats’ salaries are increased based on their performance. Therefore, if, through the assessment panels, one is not recommended for a salary increment, there will be no salary increment and the figure will remain the same.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, on page 265, Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Co-operation – K143,247,368, there is an increment of K100 million from K43,247,368. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why there is this difference.

Mr Kambwili: There is no such a programme.

Mr Mutelo: It is there. Go through the Yellow Book.

The Deputy Chairperson: It is there on page 265, Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Co-operation ─ K143,247,368.

Mr Mutelo: I am glad that the programme is there even in the Chair’s book.

Laughter

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Co-operation – K143,247,368, the increase is due to an increase in political and economic activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Chairperson, my question has been overtaken by events.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I need your protection and guidance. In approving the Budget, we ask questions and we expect hon. Ministers to give us correct answers because this is a serious matter.

On the question of salaries for the Washington staff, Programme 3000 –K12,013,844,618, I do not think it is correct to indicate that the normal notches of salary increments are based on performance. I have to mention that I have served as Permanent Secretary before and I know what I am talking about. Would the hon. Minister help us by giving us the correct position because this is not only for Washington because even on other votes, it is the same. That is why I debated on this Vote. We need, at least, a correct explanation. This is a serious matter, Sir, and I need your protection to get a correct answer from the hon. Minister.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Protection guaranteed.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I will forgive Hon. Namulambe …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: … because he has never lived in developed countries. Salaries in developed countries …

Mr Namulambe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, we are not talking about living abroad or whatever. I am a Zambian, born in Zambia and I will die in Zambia.

The Deputy Chairperson: What is the point of order?

Mr Namulambe: Is the hon. Minister in order to refer to me as being ignorant of issues that are Government and not foreign in nature? The people and I, as Member of Parliament, need to know what we are approving. Is he in order to respond in the manner he has?

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that the hon. Minister referred to you as a person who has not lived outside Zambia, he was out of order.

However, the hon. Minister may continue and give the answer.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, salaries in developed countries do not fluctuate like they do in Zambia.

Mr Pande: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, I feel very sad to rise on a point of order on my brother there. However, the correct position is that, is he in order to indicate that salaries or conditions of service in Foreign Service differ from Zambia when these salaries relate to positions in Zambia and that is why they are budgeted for here?

The Deputy Chairperson: The ruling is that, as the hon. Minister debates, he must take that point of order into account.

He may proceed.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, let me just say that I am disappointed. He was an hon. Minister …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Let me explain. Having been an hon. Minister …

Interruptions 

Hon. Opposition Members left the Assembly Chamber.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Let them go.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I am very disappointed with the hon. Member for Kasempa because having been Minister of Foreign Affairs before …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

 Mr Kambwili: … he knows that the salary of a First Secretary serving in Zambia is almost ten times lower than the salary of a Second Secretary based in a Foreign Mission. These salaries do not fluctuate on an annual basis. The same salaries are sometimes maintained for, maybe, even five years. However, if a selected panel of experts sits to look at the conditions of service and recommends a salary increment, a small notch is given. The salaries for diplomats are not increased every year like the salaries for ordinary civil servants.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 265, Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Co-operation – K143,247,368. I would like to refer to the answer that the hon. Minister gave on fluctuations in salaries. He said that salary increments are dependent on performance. However, the fluctuations are not only in salaries, but also activities on political and economic affairs. There are some missions abroad whose allocations have not changed while others have fluctuations. What could be the main reason we are seeing these fluctuations in the Yellow Book?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Co-operation – K143,247,368 is about Political and Economic Co-operation. The ministry is going to emphasise economic diplomacy and this can only be done if the budget line is increased. There is an increase from K43,247,368 to K143,247,368 so that we achieve this goal.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/06 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – London – K18,032,016,023).

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K16,230,088,086. Why is there a slight reduction from the previous provision?

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the decrease is due to the non-inclusion of vacant positions in the 2012 Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 268, Programme 3012, Activity 010 – Rehabilitation of Properties – K450,000,000. I note that there was a provision of K400 million last year for this project, yet it was not undertaken because of the shortfall. I would have expected a smaller figure this year but, instead, there is an increase to K450 million. Why is there an increase and yet this particular activity was started this year?

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the increase is due to the escalating costs of rehabilitation. Rehabilitating properties is quite expensive. That is why the allocation has gone up.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/23 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – New Delhi – K7,134, 712,386).

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on why New Delhi – K7,134, 712,386 is allocated a less amount compared to Abuja – K8,354,168,972? I believe that we have more to benefit from New Delhi than Abuja.

The Deputy Chairperson: The question is why New Dehli has been allocated less. We have already approved the allocation for Abuja.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, it is not what we have to benefit from a country that determines the budget, but the activities in a particular mission. The mission in Abuja has more activities than the one in New Delhi.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/33 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Pretoria – K7,987,712,641).

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 018 – Head of Missions Conference – Nil. I have observed that in the past, all the missions were provided with some money for this activity. However, for 2012 Budget, nothing has been provided. May I know why there is no provision for this activity?

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3002, Activity 018 – Head of Missions Conference – Nil, this activity was not budgeted for because the Heads of Missions Conference takes place bi-annually.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/39 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Zambia Anti-Personnel Mine Action Centre – K1,129,345,740).

Mr Matafwali (Bangweulu): Mr Chairperson, I would like to find out what this Zambia Action Mine Centre is all about …

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order. Are the hon. Members of Parliament on your left, especially, the UPND and MMD, in order to storm out of the House in that manner when the Zambian people are expecting this House to deliver? The people are expecting the MMD Members to be remorseful for the way they ran the affairs of this country. However, the MMD Members are the ones in the forefront in frustrating the efforts of this House to move in the manner that it should. I seek your serious ruling so that people know that the MMD Members are not serious.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The ruling is simply that we have a quorum and so business continues.

May the hon. Member, please, continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Naumfwa!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 031 –  Zambia Mine Action Centre Board Meetings – K3,975,264. I wanted to find out what the Zambia Mine Action Centre was all about in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3001, Activity 031 –  Zambia Mine Action Centre Board Meetings – K3,975,264, this is a department that deals with the identification and diffusion of landmines.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Vote 17/38 – Nil. There is no budget for Tripoli. Can I get a confirmation from the hon. Minister that we have permanently closed the embassy in Tripoli, and therefore, there is no budget for 2012 and the years that will follow?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We have already gone past that Vote. Maybe, you can find a better way of raising it.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I have a follow-up question on the response to the question on Programme 3001, Activity 031 – Zambia Mine Action Centre Board Meetings – K3,975,264. I would like to know whether the Zambia Mine Action Centre deals with landmines in Zambia or other countries.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, yes, there are landmines in the country. For instance, in the Western Province, there have been incidences in the past of people killed as a result of landmines.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

The Deputy Chairperson: When business was suspended, the House was considering Vote 17/39 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Zambia Anti-Personnel Mine Actional Centre.

Vote 17/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27 – (Public Service Management Division – K533,995,306,911).

The Minister of Justice (Mr S. S. Zulu): Mr Chairperson, the Public Service Management Division in the Office of the President is charged with the responsibility of managing human resources in the Public Service.

Mr Chairperson, let me begin by outlining the programmes implemented in 2011. Among others, with the 2011 Budget, the division executed the following programmes: 

(i) facilitated the recruitment and placement of human resource across the Public Service. This entails the recruiting and placing appropriate qualities and quantities of human resource in the Public Service. Further, the division facilitated the admission of staff to the permanent and pensionable establishment;

(ii) continued to process statutory and non-statutory separation and facilitated payment of separation packages to Government employees;

(iii) continued to enhance the Public Service human resource data base through collection of new data. This process enabled the Government to ascertain the right qualities and quantities of the human resource in the Public Service. In addition, the division sensitised human resource practitioners in ministries and provinces on human resource planning and terms and conditions of service;

(iv) continued with institutionalisation of the performance management package in the Public Service in order to enhance Public Service delivery and embarked on monitoring and evaluation of performance management package;

(v) conducted a number of registry inspections and re-organisations in order to ascertain compliance to Government registry systems and procedures;

(vi) continued to co-ordinate the human resource development activities in the Public Service, reintroduce the induction courses of newly recruited Public Service workers and finalised and submitted the draft public service capacity development strategy;
(vii) decentralised the payroll management and establishment control system to eight line ministries;

(viii) revised the terms and conditions for the Public Service for classified employees and developed a human resource operational manual;

(ix) commenced the implementation of the pay policy by establishing an interim secretariat to spearhead implementation of the policy. To this effect, a job evaluation exercise has commenced which will result in the creation of a new salary and grading structure for the Public Service;

(x) reviewed the implementation of the voluntary medical scheme whose results provided options of broadening the scheme so as include another scheme administrator;

(xi) facilitated the payment of separation packages to former Public Service employees separated as a result of the restructuring of the road sector.{mospagebreak}

Mr Chairperson, permit now to talk about the programmes for 2012. In the year 2012, the division will continue to deliver on its mandate by implementing a number of on-going programmes in the areas of recruitment and placement, human resource development, payroll management and establishment control, human resource planning and information, records management systems and policy development, terms and conditions of service and separation of employees.

 In addition, the division will continue to co-ordinate the implementation of the Voluntary Medical Scheme as well as programmes related to industrial relations and labour matters in the Public Service. The division will especially focus on the following areas:

(i) in the area of recruitment and placement, the division will advertise available positions in the Public Service and intensify inspection tours to ensure adherence to human resources laid-down procedures and follow up on the Public Service Commission’s directives to ensure conveyances reach the intended officers. The division will also continue to verify professional and academic qualifications in order to negate incidences of forged academic and professional certificates in the Public Service;

(ii) with regard to human resource development, the division will continue to focus on improving the co-ordination of the implementation of human resource development activities in the Public Service to ensure compliance to the Public Service Training and Development Policy. Key programmes to be implemented will include induction of Public Service employees, implementing a competence-based strategic inter-ministerial group training programme and sensitise ministries/institutions on the capacity development strategy for the Public …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
 
Mr Muntanga: My apologies to the hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Chairperson, the one who is supposed to read this policy statement is the Leader of Government Business in the House. There was no announcement to the effect that he would be absent and someone else would be acting in his capacity. Maybe, I missed that announcement. We are surprised to see someone other than the Leader of Government Business in the House reading the statement. Why is there silence on this development? Where is the Leader of Government Business in the House? Is it in order that this House is not informed about his absence and also for someone to read his policy statement without the House being told that this would be the case?

Hon. Opposition Members: They are outside!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The ruling is that while the point of order is well-founded, the point is that His Honour the Vice-President’s inability to attend this gathering was communicated to Mr Speaker belatedly, hence the reason an announcement could not be made at an appropriate time, that is, when the Chair was making the announcements for this afternoon. 

 The hon. Minister may proceed.

Mr S. S. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you. I will begin the point I was on again.

         (ii)        with regard to human resource development, the division will continue to focus on improving the co-ordination of the implementation of human resource development activities in the Public Service in order to ensure compliance to the Public Service Training and Development Policy. The key programmes to be implemented will include induction of Public Service employees; implementing a competence-based strategic inter-ministerial group training programme and sensitise ministries/institutions on the capacity development strategy for the Public Service, monitoring and evaluation of activities, facilitating development of training and development plans and co-ordinating technical assistance for human resource capacity development.

(iii) with regard to performance management, the division’s strategic focus will be on the monitoring and evaluation of the Performance Management Programme so as to enhance performance in the Public Service. Further, the division will embark on the implementation of the revised performance management strategy which will address the performance of both the institution and the individual;
  
(iv) in the area of human resource planning, the division will continue with the inspections and reorganisation of Government …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, should this House take it that the hon. Minister who is reading the policy statement is now the Leader of Government Business in the House? Is it in order that this House is not informed about the change of Leader of Government Business in the House?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The earlier point of order by the hon. Member for Kalomo Central was more or less to the same effect. The ruling was that the notification to Mr Speaker was given very late, long after the announcements had been made at the commencement of today’s sitting.

The hon. Minister of Justice is Acting Leader of Government Business in the House for today.

The hon. Minister may proceed, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr S. S. Zulu: I thank you, Sir.

… in the area of administration of salaries in the Public Service. The division will ensure that salaries are timely processed and paid and that the personal emoluments expenditure is within approved budget limits. In addition, the division will ensure that information affecting all the employees on the Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) system is correctly reflected for both active and inactive employees. Further, the division will ensure that employs are paid according to approved conditions of service;

(v) the division will continue to co-ordinate the implementation of the Voluntary Medical Scheme for the Public Service. It is envisaged that with the strengthening of the monitoring mechanisms, the number of employees recruited to the scheme will increase;

(vi) with regard to the implementation of the Public Service Pay Policy, the division will develop a new salary and grading structure for the Public Service. The division will implement advocacy strategies for the pay policy in order to ensure that it is disseminated to all stakeholders. The division will also establish a monitoring and evaluation framework for the pay policy;

(vii) the Division will facilitate negotiations with nine Public Service unions for improved salaries, wages and conditions of service; and undertake research activities in the labour market and within the region on terms and conditions of service and industrial relations; and

(viii) with regard to separations, the division will continue to separate employees who have not been placed or may not be placed in the structured ministries.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Vote on the Floor. In supporting this Vote whose policy statement has just been read by the hon. Minister of Justice, I have a few observations to make.

Sir, first and foremost, we would like to see a situation where the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) is proactive and acts on what it tells us. In the past, we have known various restructuring programmes for the civil servants. At one time, through this restructuring, a lot of extension workers in the agriculture sector were laid off. The reason given for this was that there was a need to trim down the Civil Service. This totally disadvantaged the people in rural areas.

Sir, owing to these restructures, at another time, the cordon line remained unguarded because the people meant to man it were laid off. It was only after the decision to lay off the extension workers was acted upon that it was realised that they were needed.

For this reason, I would like to urge the PSMD that, as it restructures, not to do so to an extent that will cause inefficiency and, in turn, a total lack of assistance to the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, at the moment, the division is talking about revising the salary structures. I hope the new salaries will help to retain the teachers who are forced to resign due to poor salaries.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, first of all, I must apologise to the senior hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor for interrupting his debate. However, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is it in order for hon. Members of this House to insult the Head of State in the manner as quoted in today’s tabloid, The Post Newspaper, dated 7th December, 2011, in an article titled:

“Situmbeko Challenges Sata to be Serious with National Issues – Musokotwane insults Sata.”

Mr Chairperson, I lay will be laying this paper on the Table.

Sir, the Head of State is the Executive of the nation and by virtue of that, he has got certain privileged information which he gets through various means. Therefore, it is not in order for hon. Members to challenge any information that gets to him?

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, we might be setting a very bad precedent in this nation. I seek your serious ruling and I now lay the paper on the Table.

Mr Kampyongo laid the paper on the Table.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will come back with a ruling after I read the contents of the newspaper.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, Hon. Muntanga.

Mr Muntanga: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

Sir, the PSMD needs to exercise its authority over all other ministries properly. As I said earlier, the restructuring programmes affected the performance of various ministries, especially the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock because it was after that restructuring that a lot of extension staff was removed.

In the same vein, Mr Chairperson, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that I hope that the new salary structure we are talking about will take into consideration the lowly-paid teachers. When I debated, last time, I stated that 11,000 teachers leave the teaching profession every year, of which 8,000 are due to resignations. In most cases, when one talks to these teachers, it is made known to them that the resignations are prompted by poor conditions of service, in short, the salaries. Therefore, the PSMD must do its work.

Sir, I would also like the PSMD to exercise its authority because I am not yet sure why certain actions are not taken to discipline civil servants. It could be the question of protecting one another. If a civil servant does something wrong, now, he/she will have retired by the time the issue of disciplining him/her is talked about. Teachers are not disciplined because their cases first go to the Teaching Service Commission. By the time they are reported to the PSMD, the man or woman in question will be out of service. Why should we not be efficient?

As you have promised to restructure, computerise and make all these changes, my plea is that you hasten the process. Perhaps, this will change the attitude of workers.

When complaints are lodged, it is said that the ones complaining are politicians. There is a tendency to think that politicians want to take over jobs in the Civil Service. However, my advice is that, once we become politicians, we do not want to be civil servants. The people in the Government are policy makers. However, the point is that it takes time for the PSMD to act on complaints.

Sir, we have problems of inefficiency of workers. They report for work at 0900 hours and not 0800 hours. They knock off at 1600 hours and not bother about it. Every time they say, “This is Government work.” Why should people not do a job seriously for the Government? Could you find out why as you restructure?

Mr Chairperson, Parliament follows time. At 1430 hours on the dot, the Hon. Mr Speaker takes his seat and business starts. Hon. Ministers, please, check your ministries. When hon. Ministers want to change the work culture of civil servants, they are described as hostile and bad people. The PSMD is the one that is supposed to instil discipline. The commissions must be told that the work culture displayed by the civil servants is not good enough. If, today or next week, everyone went to work on time and worked for a full eight hours, I can guarantee you that Zambia would change.

Ms Imenda: Yes!

Mr Muntanga: Perhaps, it all borders on poor salaries. Some workers use offices just to have access for business deals.

Sir, if you went to the Ministry of Lands, Energy and Water Development, you would discover that files go missing every day. However, if you used an hon. Minister to get that file, you would be surprised at how it would be found. We have heard stories of people offering money to have a lost file retrieved. Once money is offered, the file is found.

Sir, it does not matter whether you transfer a worker from the Ministry of Lands, Energy and Water development to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs because they have the same work culture.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Why should it be so, PSMD?

Mr Livune: It has to fire them!

Mr Muntanga: We need to address these issues in the interest of our country.  Governments can change. Yesterday it was the MMD in power and, today, it is the PF. If the Civil Service does not work, we have problems and will continue to have problems. As the Government restructures salaries, I urge it to ensure that civil servants are happy.  Regardless of whether one is an hon. Minister or not, civil servants should serve in the Public Service for Mother Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I was looking at the staff establishments in all the ministries. While we talk about shortcomings in rural areas, we have now moved most civil servants to the headquarters. The headquarters of the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock is fully staffed with people with all sorts of degrees. They do not want to work in rural areas where people need them. Therefore, the PSMD should look into this issue. Restructuring of the Public Service should not only be about reducing staff. In any case, why should the staff establishment be reduced?

Mr Chairperson, every year that goes by, we hear that the Civil Service has ghost workers. We need to clean up the database of the Public Service. I have looked at the staff establishments for various Government institutions. For example, my own constituency does not have civil servants despite the budgets and records in various ministries showing that there are people deployed there. Why should the PSMD take so long to clean up the Civil Service?

Mr Chairperson, it was gratifying to hear the President say that he does not want political appointees although politicians are sneaked into the Civil Service. Besides, civil servants are politicians. He directed the Secretary to Cabinet to appoint officers from the Civil Service, but politicians still surfaced disguised as civil servants. This is not right. The Permanent Secretary of the PSMD should do his work.

I urge the hon. Minister of Justice, on behalf of His Honour the Vice-President, who is not here, to take note of the fact that we need to clean up the Civil Service. If the Government does not take action to straighten the Civil Service in accordance with the people’s expectations, then we have a problem. We have now started paying public servants, including chiefs’ retainers, properly. I would like the civil servants to be paid properly, but this should be for a good job or service. If we can all keep time, like employees of Parliament, Zambia can change.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to tell you that of the three wings of Government, Parliament is the only place where employees keep time.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: We should not bother asking ourselves whether this is true or not because we are all aware of this. I have gone to courts where people who are supposed to start a court session at 0900 hours come at 1100 hours without any explanation and people are kept waiting. Moreover, why are the sessions started at 0900 and not 0800 hours? The Clerk of Courts reports for work at 0900 hours when the court session is supposed to start at 0900 hours. Then the magistrate will come at 1100 hours. Who suffers? Like the hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport said, when two elephants make love, the grass suffers.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: I now realise that this love affair of elephants is making the grass, which is us, Zambians, suffer. Can these elephants make love elsewhere?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Leave us, the grass, the Zambians, alone.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I would like these people to realise that when they do not do a job, I will assure them that we are approving this Budget for next year but, for the 2013 Budget, I promise them, since I do not forget, like an elephant, ...

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … that I will move Motions to reduce its budget because I will have known that even if you are given money, you do not want to work. Why should we give you money if you do not work? It should start with the Public Service Management Division showing us that this Government means well, starting with the permanent secretaries. They are not here, otherwise, I would have said, “Look at them” but, now, Sir, please, look at them as you go to your offices. They should search themselves too. They have been only concentrating on making their offices comfortable.

Mr Chairperson, they have now brought a new system of locking their doors. They have new gadgets for opening doors just to stop us from seeing them.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: This way, deals are properly sealed off. Do you need protection of locking offices with gadgets? What do you want to steal? I am a Member of Parliament, but I have to stand at their doors for ten minutes, waiting for someone to come with something hanging around his neck to open the door for me.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: It is the MMD!

Mr Muntanga: If they do that to an hon. Member of Parliament, what will happen with a poor person from the village? He will not go in.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Ni MMD!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, at the moment, you should not even point at the MMD Members, the buck stops at you now. The MMD Government made a mistake, but you must correct it.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the previous Government made a mistake, but these should correct it. Do not even say to me that it is the MMD because it is you now.

With these very few words, …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … I thank you, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, thank you for affording me this opportunity to debate this important unit in Government. In supporting its budget, I would like to make the following comments. Firstly, this is the unit that is key to our development process as a nation. We are all in agreement that human capital is key to our development. The training, skills, competencies of our people, are key in developing our country.

Clearly, the PSMD is the one that will be or that is responsible for unlocking the process of our development endeavour. The efficiency and effectiveness of the Civil Service depends on what this unit does. I would have loved to hear, in His Honour the Vice-President’s policy statement, new dimensions in addressing the role of this unit. For example, I would have loved to hear how this unit will be transformed for it to play a very important and decisive role, as an institution responsible for co-ordinating the national training needs of this country and for effectively coming up with a national training needs policy for Zambia because that is extremely important for our country. There are many institutions that are providing training in the country. It is incumbent upon this unit to co-ordinate all those training programmes so that we are very sure, as a nation, what is happening in all the various institutions in terms of quality as well as how our human resource is being prepared for the development challenge.

Secondly, I would have liked to hear from His Honour the Vice-President’s policy statement the role of this unit in auditing the national training programmes that are there. It is important to audit them so that this institution can assure the nation that all our training programmes in the country, be they in private or public institutions, are being undertaken at levels of the quality that this country requires.

Furthermore, I would have liked to hear His Honour the Vice-President’s policy statement include the whole challenge of establishing quality assurance mechanisms or quality assurance institutions in our country so that there is a system of ascertaining the quality of our human resource in all our various institutions, for example, ministries. I would also have liked to hear His Honour the Vice-President mention the whole strive for sustainability at the level of quality of performance in our human resource; that there is a continuous in-built mechanism for ensuring that our human resource is operating at a sustainable level of performance in all ministries, which, of course, touches on continuous performance assessment of our personnel. This is for us to be sure that all our personnel are operating at the highest level of quality possible. That is very important.

Furthermore, Mr Chairperson, I would have liked to hear His Honour the Vice-President’s policy statement explain how this unit will be repositioned to address the challenge of credentialism. Like any other society in the world, today, there is the challenge of credentialism brought about by the emulsification of higher education. There are many institutions, both public and, especially, private, that are providing diverse qualifications to the public. There are, for example, institutions that are offering degrees in information and communication technology at questionable levels of training. We know, for example, that an undergraduate degree, under normal circumstances, should be undertaken in four years or, if you have an advanced level of qualification at the high school level, three years. However, there are institutions …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House and Minister of Justice (Mr S. Zulu):  Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 8th December, 2011.