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Debates - Friday, 9th December, 2011
DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE ELEVENTH NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 9th December, 2011
The House met at 0900 hours
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
__________
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
The Acting Leader of Government Business and Minister of Justice (Mr S. S. Zulu): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the Business it will consider next week.
Sir, on Tuesday, 13th December, 2011, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2012 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, and will consider the following heads:
Head 21 - Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance and National Planning;
Head 37 - Ministry of Finance and National Planning;
Head 20 - Loans and Investments – Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection; and
Head 29 - Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection.
Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 14th December, 2011, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider a Private Members’ Motion on “Funded Integrated Urban Development Approach.” After that, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2012 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, and will consider the following heads:
Head 33 - Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry;
Head 78 - Zambia Security Intelligence Service – Office of the President; and
Head 80 - Ministry of Education, Science and Vocational Training.
Sir, on Thursday, 15th December, 2011, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2012 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure to consider the following heads:
Head 85 - Ministry of Lands, Energy and Water Development;
Head 87 - Anti-Corruption Commission;
Head 89 - Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock; and
Heads 90-98 - Office of the President – Provinces:
- Lusaka Province;
- Copperbelt Province;
- Central Province;
- Northern Province;
- Western Province;
- Eastern Province;
- Luapula Province;
- North-Western Province; and
- Southern Province.
Mr Speaker, on Friday, 16th December, 2011, the Business of the House will begin with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will consider the Second Reading stage of the following Bills:
(a) the Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2011;
(b) the Mines and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill, 2011;
(c) the Zambia Development Agency (Amendment) Bill, 2011;
(d) the Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2011; and
(e) the Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2011.
Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2012 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure to continue considering the following heads:
Heads 90-98 - Office of the President – Provinces:
- Lusaka Province;
- Copperbelt Province;
- Central Province;
- Northern Province;
- Western Province;
- Eastern Province;
- Luapula Province;
- North-Western Province; and
- Southern Province.
After that, the House will consider the following head:
Head 99 - Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure.
Then the House will consider any other Business that may be outstanding.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
__________
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
PRINTING OF BANKNOTES BY THE BANK OF ZAMBIA
The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, let me start by thanking you profoundly for allowing me the opportunity to deliver a statement regarding the printing of banknotes by the Bank of Zambia (BOZ).
Sir, BOZ as mandated by the Bank of Zambia Act, 1996, Cap. 360 of the Laws of Zambia is the only issuer of the Zambian currency. The practice in recent times has been to procure currency notes for three year periods, principally for cost considerations.
Mr Speaker, for the period 2010 – 2012, a tender was floated using a limited bidding method and 12 companies submitted bids. After tender evaluation, a German company, Giesecke and Devrient was awarded the contract to print both paper and polymer banknotes.
Sir, the contract sum was 16,779,411 euros. Out of this amount, BOZ has since paid 12,450,709.81 euros for the quantities received for 2010 and 2011. The balance, therefore, stands at 4,328,701 euros. The total quantity of banknotes delivered so far is 212 million pieces while the balance of 116 million will be delivered in the course of 2012.
Mr Speaker, despite the mandate of BOZ to issue currency, it is expected to conform to public procurement procedures in accordance with the Public Procurement Act, 2008.
Sir, the Zambian Government, as a custodian of public interest will take keen interest in ensuring that the bank strictly conforms to the requirements of the Public Procurement Act and avoids sidelining the approval of the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) as was the case in this particular instance. This is not only a recipe for impropriety, but also raises legitimate questions by the public who are, at the end of the day, the repository of our authority at all levels of the Government.
Sir, I now lay on the Table a copy of the contract signed between BOZ and Giesecke and Devrient for the information of the House.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chikwanda laid the paper on the Table.
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now at liberty to ask questions by way of clarification on the ministerial statement.
Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, the issue which has been in the papers was that there have been illegal notes in circulation. Is the hon. Minister saying that the notes that BOZ is circulating are illegal and if they are, why are they still in circulation?
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, my statement has been short, precise and confined to the facts. I do not want to deal with value judgments.
I thank you, Sir.
Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, the issue is whether the money printed by this Germany company is illegal tender or not. The hon. Minister needs to come out clearly and let us know and, through us, the public that this money is not illegal tender.
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, the answer categorically is that although BOZ violated the law by circumventing the provisions of the Public Procurement Act, a statute made by this Parliament, the banknotes in question are not illegal tender.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I listened very carefully to the hon. Minister’s statement. Can he please clarify the manner in which BOZ circumvented the Public Procurement Act, if in the Bank of Zambia Act, it is allowed to float tenders regarding the printing of banknotes. In which way were the provisions of the Public Procurement Act flouted by BOZ?
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, the violation is by not referring the tender to the ZPPA for approval.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Sir, I hope I will get back my K50,000.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: You will, Honourable.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I just want to ask the hon. Minister to categorically confirm that apart from Thomas De La Rue, the other companies that are printing money were awarded these contracts and that the notes printed by them are legal tender contrary to what was stated that only …
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order! Let the hon. Member complete his question.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I just want confirmation that the other companies were also contracted to print banknotes so that there is no doubt in the minds of the people of Zambia regarding the legitimacy of the notes which they printed because they have just been looking for the Thomas De La Rue notes.
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Monze Central is one of our most resourceful hon. Members of Parliament. He is gifted with a depth of intellect. I am sure that he has gotten my explanation quiet clearly. I do not want to be involved in discussing BOZ.
Interruptions
Mr Chikwanda: Sir, BOZ is the epicenter of the economy of Zambia. Thus, we have to be careful in the way we discuss it because it affects the interests of the country. The tender was floated. There were twelve bidders including one from Thomas De La Rue. The German Company that was awarded submitted the most favourable tender. The only issue here which is of the concern to the Government is that there was no strict adherence to the provisions of the law which was made by this Parliament. That is why I have given my categorical and irrevocable commitment that we will ensure, without infringing on the prerogatives or preserves which we have assigned to institutions such as BOZ, that Government institutions do everything within the confines of the law.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister therefore, confirm that Cabinet will no longer issue statements in abstract.
Mr Speaker: Is that a question or a statement?
Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, I asked the hon. Minister to confirm whether those in the Government will desist from issuing statements in an abstract manner. The President earlier in the week issued a statement regarding the same issue which has brought a lot of distortions.
Mr Speaker: Order! I do not think I will allow the hon. Minister to answer that question.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kunda, SC. (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm emphatically that BOZ acts independently with regard to the procurement of banknotes for the Republic of Zambia and that it is erroneous to attribute any of its shortcomings in that regard to the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD).
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, the MMD have a mandate to try and wash away their sins.
Laughter
Mr Chikwanda: Sir, BOZ has the leeway to act independently when carrying out its duties. However, that leeway does not exempt it from complying with the law.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I have said before on the Floor of this House that the economy of Zambia is now being credit rated and, therefore, the management of the economy requires caution. I would like to know from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning what negative impact the economy suffered as a result of this misrepresentation of facts.
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I do not want to draw myself into discussing the hon. Member’s wisdom. Wisdom, intelligence and talent cannot be patented.
Laughter
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, the question that has been asked by the hon. Member is slightly off tangent.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr M. B. Mwale (Malambo): Mr Speaker, my question has already been covered.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, I followed the response by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to the effect that the money printed by other companies is legal tender. Now that BOZ flouted the ZPPA because that money should have been printed by Thomas De La Rue, can the hon. Minister indicate whether this Government has got people representing Thomas De La Rue as opposed to other companies since they were supposed to compete?
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, despite the gross misrepresentation by my honourable friend, I want to say that there is nobody in the Government or even in this House who has any profit agenda with regard to currency printing. I said that there were bids submitted by twelve companies, including Thomas De La Rue. Thomas De La Rue was not picked because its bid was not competitive.
I thank you, Sir
Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, if I heard the hon. Minister correctly, he said that from the awarded contract, only twelve billion pieces were printed. What is the total value in terms of kwacha?
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I have to plead with this House to bear with the hon. Member.
Laughter
Mr Chikwanda: Our brothers from the Eastern Province have a constraint of not counting beyond five.
Laughter
Mr Chikwanda: I did not say 12 billion. I said 212 million of both polymer and paper notes were printed and a balance of 116 million would be delivered in the course of next year.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has correctly said that BOZ is the epicenter that anchors financial stability. The legality of a currency is part of its stability. What practical steps is he going to take to restore the public confidence that the currency in circulation is, indeed, and will continue to be legal tender?
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, no public confidence has been lost. What is happening is …
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order!
Let the hon. Minister respond. The reason you are asking questions is to get answers. So, why interject before he responds.
The hon. Minister may continue, please.
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, the only thing that has happened is that politicians both in and outside this House have been wanting to exchange tirades and screaming obscenities at each other. However, public confidence has not been adversely affected by anything.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
{mospagebreak}
Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Liuwa may ask his question.
Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.
Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether BOZ has always referred the printing of money to the ZPPA, and if not, why now?
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, all organs of the Government are required to make reference to the ZPPA in all things that are procured, without exception. If illegality was committed and the people in charge entertained it, the law will visit them. The Patriotic Front (PF) intends not to entertain any irregularity, illegality or impropriety.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: The hon. Member of Senga Hill may ask his question.
Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.
Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has presented this very delicate issue in the most diplomatic way possible. Could he, therefore, confirm to the nation that his predecessor, Hon. Dr Musokotwane has been vindicated?
Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, we have the equivalent of the eleventh commandment. We do not discuss each other. Hon. Musokotwane is my predecessor and colleague. We have a way of consulting each other. I will, therefore, not discuss him.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
_____
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
CHAMA DISTRICT HOSPITAL
48. Mr D. Mumba (Chama North) asked the Minister of Health:
(a) when funds for completion of the construction of the Chama District Hospital would be released; and
(b) when the hospital would be opened to the public.
The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, the construction of Chama District Hospital commenced in 2008 and construction works have been planned and implemented in a phased manner. So far, Phase 1 and 2, comprising a kitchen, laundry, theater, X-ray, out-patient department and maternity ward have been completed.
My ministry has provided funds, in the 2012 Budget, for the completion of Phase 3 of the hospital consisting of two wards, ten staff houses and external works. The procurement process for the construction of Phase 3 has reached an advanced stage and the Ministry of Health is just awaiting authority from the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) to award the contract. Funds will be released upon approval of the Budget.
Mr Speaker, for planning purposes, the estimated period for the construction of Phase 3 of Chama District Hospital is fifty-two weeks. However, the final duration will be determined only after the contractor has moved on site. In this regard, the hospital is expected to be opened to the public as soon as possible, thereafter.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, of the remaining works, can the hon. Minister of Health confirm that there is one major omission which he will have to take into consideration and that this is the construction of a relatives’ shelter in these outlying hospitals that are earmarked for completion.
The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Mumbwa surely would be aware of the procedures. We have already answered that the process is at an advanced stage and the tenders are awaiting. If, therefore, we decided that his suggestion, which I think is excellent, is worthy of implementation, we will have to propose the procedure to start for this exercise independent of the current exercise, which is almost complete.
I thank you, Sir.
___________
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
VOTE 31 – (Ministry of Justice – Headquarters – K295, 140,576,080).
(Consideration resumed)
Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, before the House was adjourned yesterday, I was saying that a legislation overhaul is needed in order to make the setting up of doing business in Zambia easy. The Ministry of Justice cuts across all the ministries in this country. Therefore, the legislation that we have in this country requires to be realigned.
Sir, the success of this House and, indeed, the Government as a whole, will be measured by how many jobs it will create between the next five to ten years. Without correct and clear legislation, most sectors of the economy will not be able to create the jobs.
The Constitution is a very important piece of legislation that we have and it is the supreme law of the land. Hence, I wished that the hon. Learned Minister of Justice would have talked about the need to translate this piece of legislation into local languages to enable members of the public, especially the people of Lupososhi Constituency, understand the provisions of the law. Without clear understanding, the people of Lupososhi may not be able to know what rights accrue to them.
Sir, let me now talk about the Legal Aid Board. This is an important board to which the people that are not able to fend for themselves or have no money to hire their own lawyers run to. More often than not, we have had situations where the people that need legal representation have had to provide fuel for the lawyer to go and represent them in court. So, a clear and good funding to this board will definitely alleviate that particular aspect and be able to assist the Zambian people that require legal representation.
Mr Chairperson, the other aspect and, maybe, my last contribution on this important Vote, which I support, is that of access to credit. The legal framework governing access to loans in this country needs to be reformed. The need for people to provide collateral each time they want to access loans from the lending institutions needs to be re-looked at so that people can access loans without much of a problem. I have in mind, why it should not be possible for me to use my ACCA qualification or a Law Degree as collateral in order to access a loan from the bank. I know that anything that I will do contrary to the provision of the loan agreement, will mean that my professional body will be informed and I risk losing that particular qualification.
These are some of the legal reforms that we need to come up with. It is happening in the developed countries. Since we are living in a global village, Mr Chairperson, sometimes, we need to be daring and radical in the way we reform and bring about change to this country.
With these few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Mr Monde (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for affording me an opportunity to discuss matters pertaining to the Ministry of Justice.
Sir, I wish to talk about the Anti-Corruption Act, which the hon. Minister talked about yesterday. The strengthening of the Anti-Corruption Act is such an important subject that is supposed to be supported by all hon. Members of this House.
Mr Chairperson, I must say that corruption is breeding so much in the Government because of bureaucracies that are prevailing. I had an opportunity, at one time, to look at a Code of Conduct that was written by Dr Kanganja. It was discouraging officers of the Government from delaying when making certain judgements. When this is created, it causes a person that is in need to begin to look for a desperate way in which he or she must be attended to. So, I think that such cautions must be emphasised to civil servants to ensure that they can stop some of these things.
Mr Chairperson, last time, I was impressed with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning when he indicated that the best we could do is not to wait until corruption had taken place, but to find a way we could stop it. I support His Excellency the President’s statement here regarding the consideration of Article 37, which was removed from our Constitution.
Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about the formation of the Constitution. We are aware that there is so much that has been talked about and goal posts have been changed, time and time again, but now we know that there is a one year ultimatum that has been given in which Zambians should expect this Constitution.
Sir, I must say that what Zambia needs, today, is not just a good or an experienced president but, I think, above all these qualifications, it needs a very good Constitution. Then, we will have few problems in handling lots of matters that pertain to governance and service delivery to Zambians.
Mr Chairperson, let me conclude by commenting on the Judicial Complaints Authority which is under the Ministry of Justice. I have noted that the vision of this authority is to enhance and sustain public confidence in the Judiciary. I have checked the Yellow Book and I have noted that there is about K2.6 billion allocated to this institution. I, however, feel that this amount is inadequate. We need to support this institution in order to restore confidence in judicial officers. Further, I would like to request the ministry to decentralise the operations of the institution so that people in Itezhi-tezhi, for instance, can air their complaints against judges and other matters to do with the judicial system. I wish to end here and state that I support the Vote.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on this very important Vote that we are considering. I want to begin by stating that I support the allocation in the Yellow Book. However, I have some proposals to make.
Mr Chairperson, this ministry is quite important because it houses the legal minds which advise the Government on the most important legal matters. The ministry also drafts legislation. Therefore, it requires proper funding. I listened very carefully yesterday when the hon. Minister gave his policy statement in support of the Vote for his ministry. He made reference to the Constitution-making process which has no provision in the estimates.
Mr Chairperson, like I sad earlier in one of my debates, His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, indicated that within ninety days of the Patriotic Front (PF) in power, there was going to be a new Constitution. Then we saw the appointment of a committee of experts that are going to look at the drafting of the Constitution. Later, the hon. Minister of Justice indicated to us that this process would take more or less than twelve months to complete. We have also heard through the Leader of Government Business in the House, His Honour the Vice-President, Dr Guy Scott, that we are possibly going to have a referendum. I am sure that when the committee of experts starts drafting the new Constitution, Part III of the current Constitution is going to be touched. As such, a referendum will be very essential.
Mr Chairperson, we have also heard that this technical committee of experts that has been appointed is going to go round the provinces. It should be noted that the committee will not be walking or going without food. There will be a need for expenditure which has to be included in the Budget. We do not want a situation where we are going to have responses like we heard earlier that funds are budgeted for under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, and yet there is no Vote for this.
Sir, time and again, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) was condemned regarding expenditure which went to the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). Some people have been claiming that huge sums of money were spent. It is true that the Constitution-making process is an expensive venture. However, I am sure some of the recommendations of the NCC are going to be taken into account when considering the Draft Constitution. To do all this, we need to have a budget line. Firstly, we need to know how much money is going to be spent by the committee of technical experts that is going to go round the provinces.
Mr Chairperson, a referendum is more or less like a general election. So, it will require funds and these funds have to be specified in the Budget. We cannot just rely on contingency funds. Suppose the contingency funds are not enough or there are other issues that would warrant expenditure from the contingency funds? It is for this reason that I am humbly requesting the hon. Minister of Justice, as he winds up debate, to ask the Chairperson for leave to defer the approval of this Vote until we bring in an amendment to include the expenditure for the Constitution-making process because we have to know how much money is going to be spent on it.
Interruptions
Mr Namulambe: If we are just going to spend money without budgeting for it, this exercise could even end up being more expensive than the NCC. For the Government to prove to us that this exercise is less costly, it is only appropriate that it moves an amendment to this Vote so that the cost of the Constitution-making process is included in the Budget and the Zambian people know how much of the taxpayers’ money will go towards this exercise.
Mr Chairperson, this is a very humble request and since the Government claims to be a listening one, I am sure it will fulfill what it promised the people. The people out there are interested in seeing the new Constitution but, most of all, they are interested in knowing how much money is going to be spent on this Constitution. I am sure the hon. Minister is listening very carefully and will follow the humble advice from this small hill.
Laughter
Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the Government has lost court cases and people require to be compensated. May I request the hon. Minister of Justice to consider people who have been requesting for their payments for quite some time. The ministry should consider people who won cases against the Government earlier and pay them promptly. I know that the resources that this ministry has may not be enough but, I think, there is a need to move speedily to ensure that these people are paid. We shall support the reforms that our colleagues on your right are trying to introduce provided they are for the benefit of the Zambian people.
Mr Chairperson, with these few words and the request that the hon. Minister defers this Vote by bringing in an amendment to include expenditure for the Constitution-making process, I want to thank you for giving me time to speak.
The Chairperson: Before we can proceed, can we try and be as precise as we can. Let us avoid making repetitions so that we can move fast because there is a lot on our programme.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Vote for the Ministry of Justice. Before I do that, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister of Justice, Mr S. S. Zulu, on his appointment to this high position in the country. However, I would like to remind him that he is one of the people who suffered injustice in this country after the MMD came into office in 1991. Unwarranted accusations were made against him without any justification. I have no doubt that he knows how injurious such accusations are to an individual. Having said that, I would like to appeal to his conscience not to allow history to continue repeating itself, ...
Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: … especially history that is being induced by the leadership.
Mr Chairperson, I stand before you a very sad man lamenting the past and the present happenings. In 1991, when the MMD came into power, it levelled a number of accusations against the former leadership of United Party for National Development (UNIP). A lot of the former leadership of UNIP was detained, harassed and humiliated without any evidence adduced.
Mr Ntundu: It is true.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, when the MMD won the Presidential Elections in 2006, history repeated itself. Most of the former leadership that served under the former President Chiluba was accused of committing heinous crimes most of which were not substantiated. We are now seeing a repeat of what happened in 2001.
Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am not against prosecutions that are done diligently and professionally. I would like to appeal to the conscience of the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that there is no sensational reporting on cases that are under investigation. Sensational reporting leads to collective hatred against individuals. We should allow professional bodies to investigate cases thoroughly and once they investigate those cases thoroughly, let them refer them to the Director of Public Prosecutions Chambers for prosecution. Unfortunately, what is transpiring now is that people are being tried in the press, accusations are being made, the jury sits and judgement is passed. We should not allow that.
Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Justice, as the term entails, is supposed to dispense justice for everyone in this country.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: People should look upon the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that their interests are protected. Unfortunately, it is now becoming a culture on the part of those in power to level accusations against defenceless individuals.
Mr Hamududu: Yes.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, worse still, the defenceless individuals have no forum to defend themselves. I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that justice is not just done, but must be seen to be done. Justice should not be selective; it must be blind. We have seen in recent times political turncoats who have joined those on the right. We were with those turncoats on this side and used to condemn …
Mr Ntundu: On a point of order, Sir.
The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to raise a point of order. Are the hon. PF Members of Parliament in order to leave the House? Look at the benches; they are empty when there is a very important issue on the Floor of the House. Are they in order to be absent from the House? I need your serious ruling, Sir.
Laughter
The Chairperson: The serious ruling is that, indeed, hon. Members of Parliament should be in the Chamber when we are conducting business. However, we have a quorum. So, we will proceed.
Can you continue hon. Member, please.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am appealing to the conscience of my hon. Learned Colleague that as we dispense justice in this nation, we should not be selective. I had indicated that people we used to accuse collectively when we were on this side; those who were building houses using the contractors appointed by the Government are now with them. Those individuals are not being followed.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Those individuals have become heroes on their part.
Mr Ntundu: Some of them have been appointed.
Mr Mwiimbu: Those individuals whom we used to tell that the law would visit them one day are not being investigated. Why are we having this selective justice? A number of individuals whom you used to accuse of abusing Government resources are with you. They have joined the PF Government and have joined the PF thinking that they will be protected. It seems, so far, they are being protected.
Mr Hamududu: They are.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Only those who are that side are being pursued. What zero tolerance to corruption is this?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Through you, Sir, we have seen individuals who are facing contempt proceedings in court, which are criminal in nature …
Mr Hamududu: They are now Permanent Secretaries.
Mr Mwiimbu: … being appointed.
Hon. UPND Members: Shame!
Mr Mwiimbu: Have we cleared them?
{mospagebreak}
Sir, according to Public Service regulations, if you are facing a criminal charge, you cannot hold office. If you have been appointed, you are put on suspension. Why are they holding those positions?
Mr Chairperson, through you, we have seen individuals who are currently appearing in court being appointed in the Foreign Service. Why should that be the case? Have they been cleared? Are we seeing into the future that the cases against them will not succeed?
Mr Chairperson, we are here to ensure that justice is seen and done on behalf of the people. Do you honestly believe, hon. Minister of Justice, that the people of Zambia will believe that you are fighting corruption impartially without being selective if individuals of such repute are being appointed to public offices?
Mr Chairperson, we have seen some Permanent Secretaries who were dismissed for embezzling public funds appointed as controlling officers.
Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!
Mr Mwiimbu: Why are we doing this?
We are aware of individuals who have been cited in the Public Accounts Committee and reports are there, who are being recommended for appointments to prosecute others. What are we doing?
Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we have seen members of the Government who are holding senior positions in the Government making very serious tribal remarks. I have no doubt, hon. Minister of Justice, having been Solicitor-General and a very senior member of the Bar, you know that practising tribalism is an offence, but there is nothing that is said against those people. The silence is so loud regarding the hon. Members of the Executive who are practicing naked tribalism.
Hon. UPND Member: Including the President himself.
Mr Mwiimbu: However, when individuals and private citizens express their mind on national issues, and what they say is interpreted as tribalism, they are threatened with treason. I am not going to talk about the people who are outside; it is the hon. Minister of Justice who is responsible to me and to all of us whom I am going to ask certain questions. Why are you doing this, hon. Minister?
The Chairperson: Order!
I was trying to see whether you would address him …
Mr Mwiimbu: Through you, Sir.
The Chairperson: You should ask him in the third person. “Why is he doing that?” Do not address him in the second person as in “Why are you doing that?” If you ask in the second person, he will answer back and then you will not be protected.
Mr Mwiimbu: Through you, Sir, I would like to find out why the Government is allowing lawlessness to prevail in this country. This issue of tribal hegemony, if allowed to continue, will create a situation like the one which transpired in Rwanda in Zambia.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: We should not allow that. This country has survived the way it has because of the motto of ‘One Zambia, One Nation’ that was pronounced by our gallant son of Zambia, the former President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr. Kenneth Kaunda.
Mr Chairperson, I am advising the Government, without charging a fee because being a lawyer, I am supposed to charge a fee to, please, nip this ugly issue of tribalism in the bud. If we do not do that, posterity will judge us harshly.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: We are the leaders of this nation and there are only 160 of us in this country. All the 158 Members of Parliament, plus Mr Speaker, 159 and the President make it 160 Members of the Government. We will all be held accountable if this country goes on fire.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: If we allow irresponsibility to continue, we shall pay the price. We should not allow such things to happen. We have lived in harmony in this country and we would like our children and the children of our children to live in harmony in this country. We should not allow people to divide this nation.
With those few remarks, I want to thank you, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to contribute on this important Motion.
Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Justice is, indeed, a very important ministry but, as others have said, these paltry allocations in the budget have continued and that inadequate funding leads to inefficiency. Speaking on behalf of the people of Namwala, our prime wealth there is cattle. Of late, there have been a lot of cattle rustling there.
These cases have not been concluded for some time now because each time a complainant goes to the police, he or she is told that the police do not have fuel to go and apprehend the rustlers. However, they will go ahead and apprehend these people by using their own fuel in a police Land Cruiser. When the case gets to court and since cattle rustling is a bailable offence when the time comes up for mention, they do not go with their sureties. As a result, there are many pending Bench warrants at the magistrate’s court in Namwala. Since these criminals are released on bail, they go back to live within the community. Unfortunately, sometimes, when a cattle rustler is apprehended he loses his life because of mob justice.
Mr Chairperson, it is in this regard that I appeal, through you, that the offence of cattle rustling not be a bailable offence just like a car theft offence. Cattle rustling has really taken us backwards in Namwala District. As I mentioned earlier, these cases are not concluded on time and if we make this case unbailable, then we will curb this scourge. If we can make car theft an offence that is not bailable why can we not do so for cattle rustling? Cattle is our wealth and pride.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
The Minister of Justice (Mr S. S. Zulu): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on this Vote.
The Ministry of Justice is at the centre of good governance. It deals with human rights and complaints. Therefore, hon. Members should learn to be whistleblowers. In other words, all the complaints that have been made can be brought to my office. If you know that there is something the Government is doing wrong, please, bring it to my attention and I will consult my colleagues. We are a listening Government as we say. As I said yesterday, just pass the ball and we may score by a penalty.
Hon. Bwalya wished that the Constitution was translated into local languages. That is a very good idea, but there is a cost to it. Since the Constitution is undergoing amendments, it means that we will have to wait until we have a new Constitution before we can do the translation. I have taken note of that.
The Legal Aid Board definitely needs adequate funding because it deals with human rights. It is the right of a suspect to be defended in the courts of law because he is considered innocent until he is proven guilty. I have also taken note of this issue.
As regards the issue of access to credit vis-à-vis bending the rules relating to collateral and security, that issue should be properly addressed by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who deals with such matters. I would like to advise the hon. Member to consult him.
Hon. Monde suggested that the Judicial Complaints Authority should be decentralised so that the people in the rural areas know where to make complaints. Since most of the hon. Members have constituency offices in the rural areas, complaints can be channelled through them if there is any evidence of misconduct against a judicial officer. I do not think that it should be difficult to report any complaint from the rural areas to Lusaka or even through my office because they can be passed on to the Judicial Complaints Authority.
Hon. Namulambe indicated that there is no Vote for the Constitution-making process. It is true, but he should know that this Budget was prepared by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. He is the only one who can make amendments to it. He is the one who has the authority to amend it. The Ministry of Justice has no authority to amend it. However, I have listened to the suggestion made. I will consult him and, in due course, we shall inform the nation, through this House, how much it will cost to complete this Constitution-making process.
The hon. Member for Monze Central spoke at length about selective justice. He said that some people are untouchables. I would like to invite him to my office though he is not in the House now. My office is open. Any individuals who have tangible evidence of illegality, crime and so on and so forth against anybody should inform us. Once this is reported, we will move quickly and deal with the culprits whether on the left or right. As he said, justice should be blind and I agree with him. You would only complain if you brought evidence of criminality to my office and we did nothing about it because the member concerned is PF. At the moment, you are all welcome to tell us if things are going wrong and we shall rectify the situation.
The hon. Member for Namwala suggested that the offence of cattle rustling should not be a bailable offence. I think we have a problem there. Our law regards a person as innocent until that person has been convicted by the courts of law. If those who are given bail, jump it and cannot be found, and that leads to mob violence against them, then that is an issue which should be brought to our attention. I hope that is not happening at the Namwala Magistrate’s Court. If it is, I can assure the hon. Member that we shall rectify the situation.
Finally, I am again very grateful to all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on this Vote. My ministry deals with good governance, and I mean it. When you have evidence of either criminality or irregularity, please, come to our offices and we shall rectify the situation. My office is open, as I said, but come between 0700 hours and 0800 hours in the morning.
VOTE 31/01 – (Ministry of Justice – Headquarters – K65,630,143,573).
Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K4,123,877,056. What does this activity entail to warrant this amount?
The Deputy Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Chairperson, Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K4,123,877,056 is meant to meet the daily operations of the ministry headquarters. The increase is as a result of the rise in operational costs.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 31/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 31/02 – (Ministry of Justice – Attorney-General’s Chambers – K216,054,301,452).
Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 465, Programme 4011- Information Management, Activity 008 – Database Development and Maintenance. There was a provision of K250,000,000 in 2011, but there is none for 2012. Particularly looking at the maintenance of that database which will, possibly, be developed by the end of the year, why is this so?
Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the programme has been realigned to Information Management, hence, the absence of an allocation to it in 2012. The activity has moved to Programme 4001, under the Civil Litigation Unit.
Thank you, Sir.
Vote 31/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 31/03 – (Ministry of Justice – Administrator General’s Chambers – K3,876,229,968).
Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 466, Programme 4016 – Administration of Deceased Estates, Activity 004 – Establishment of News Offices – K500,000,000. May I know where these new offices will be established.
Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the new offices will be established in Ndola, Kitwe and Livingstone.
Vote 31/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Mr Chairperson: There is no provision for Vote 31/07.
Vote 31/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 44/01 – (Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport – Headquarters - K136,543,149,628).
The Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport (Mr Shamenda): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to deliver the policy statement in support of my ministry’s Budget estimates for the financial year 2012.
Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport is a new institution that arose from the merger of what were formerly the Ministries of Sport, Youth and Child Development, and Labour and Social Security. The merger of the two ministries comes with great foresight and challenges because it combines labour and employment matters with sports and youth affairs, both of which concern the youth that, we all know, make up the majority of our population. I, therefore, expect the debate on my ministry’s estimates not only to generate a lot of interest but, also, to receive your support.
Mr Chairperson, I wish to pay tribute to my predecessors for the achievements that the two former ministries made under their stewardship. A number of things were achieved despite many challenges. The achievements recorded in 2011 include the following:
(i) some consultative and policy dialogue meetings were held and strategies developed on the extension of social security to the informal sector workers;
(ii) efforts were made, though not adequate, to strengthen the labour market information system. This included publication of the results of the 2008 Labour Force Survey and an evaluation of the 2007 to 2011 Zambia Descent Work Country Programme. Work commenced on the development of the 2012 to 2015 programme;
(iii) some loans and grants were given to youth enterprises around the country under the Youth Development Fund;
(iv) provincial youth indabas were organised, the objective of which was to provide a platform for the youth to express their views on matters affecting them, and to come up with recommendations for addressing their concerns;
(v) the Youth Entrepreneurship and Incubation Programme, whose purpose is to effectively provide capacity building and business incubation services was launched. This programme is designed to accelerate the successful development of entrepreneurial skills among the youth through an array of business support resources and services;
(vi) the ministry hosted the National Sports Festival in August 2011 in order to identify and harness talent in sport in this country and, thereby, develop a competitive edge. The games took place at the Olympic Youth Development Centre in Lusaka; and
(vii) in football, the national team qualified to the 2012 Africa Cup of Nations. It is our hope that it will perform exceptionally well and bring the trophy to Zambia.
Sir, there were a number of challenges that the ministries of Labour and Social Security, and Sport, Youth and Child Development had faced in the past year. Undoubtedly, the major one was the failure to facilitate the creation of massive productive employment opportunities for our youth. Although, on one hand, the Government was excited and satisfied with the amount of foreign direct investment (FDI) inflow in the country, there was, clearly, a policy failure, on the other hand, in that the labour absorption capacity of this FDI was very insignificant. The result was that, whilst the Government boasted of billions of FDI having come to the country, the majority of our youth remained unemployed and despondent.
Mr Chairperson, the other challenge was the failure by the former Government to facilitate the creation of strong labour market institutions. As I talk, almost all labour administration institutions are weak. This is evidenced by the following:
(i) a weak labour movement due to the excessive interference in the operations of trade unions by the MMD Government;
(ii) weak labour laws despite country having been told of a labour law review exercise that did not bear any fruit for over ten years;
(iii) a weak social dialogue mechanism resulting from the clear failure by the MMD Government to utilise the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council to influence Government policies; and
(iv) a general inadequacy of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to manage the labour market. In spite of the willingness of the officers to perform, the Government failed to provide the necessary support to improve services, such as the Labour Inspectorate System.
Mr Chairperson, having outlined some of the achievements made and challenges faced in 2011, I would like to talk about the focus of my ministry in 2012.
Sir, regarding labour market issues, our aim will be to promote and facilitate the development of an efficient and effective labour market system so as to enhance productivity in the economy. This will largely be achieved through:
(a) reviewing labour legislation, for which we have to come up with a clear programme. My wish is that this exercise should not be an endless exercise, but one that inspires the confidence of all the stakeholders. As stated in my ministerial statement, two days ago, we shall start with the review of the minimum wage and, then, move on to other areas. The process has since commenced and I am glad to report that the draft terms of reference for the review of the entire labour code are ready and, once they are cleared with our social partners, the work will start;
(b) building the capacity of the ministry by procuring more vehicles, training more staff, improving the efficiency and effectiveness of the labour inspection system and reviewing various labour policies in the ministry;
(c) conducting the 2012 Labour Force Survey, coupled with improving the collection of administrative data, as a way of enriching the labour market information base and setting up the baseline for our performance;
(d) enhancing social dialogue, mainly by strengthening the operations of the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council by reviewing its structures, and holding regular meetings and consultations; and
(e) improving the operations of the public employment exchange services offered by the labour offices around the country as one of the employment promotion measures.
Mr Chairperson, in the area of youth and sport development, we have, in line with the PF Manifesto, allocated resources to programmes and activities aimed at achieving the following:
(i) providing support to youth enterprise development, whereby more resources have been put on the revolving fund in order to allow as many youths enterprises as possible to benefit from the fund;
(ii) sustaining the ministry’s infrastructure development to ensure adequate vocational training facilities. This will include construction and rehabilitation of youths resource centres; and
(iii) allocating funds for youth vocational training and skills development, to which K50 billion has been made available to demonstrate the Government’s serious commitment to addressing the problems of the youth.
Mr Chairperson, with regard to the rehabilitation of street and other vulnerable youths, the programme is intended to provide skills to them and reintegrate them into society. The programme is conducted at the Zambia National Service camps at Chiwoko in Katete and Kitwe on the Copperbelt.
Sir, as I earlier stated, the Zambia National Football Team will participate in the African Cup of Nations in January, 2012, and this has been provided for in the Budget. The country will also be taking part in the 2012 London Olympic Games and funds have been set aside for this too. Zambia will also host the Zone Six Under Twenty Youth Games for the Supreme Council for Sport in Africa in December, 2012. The games are held on a rotational and mandatory basis with the last games having been hosted by Swaziland in 2010. It is now our country’s turn and a lot of resources have been allocated for the rehabilitation of the infrastructure, team preparations and logistics for this event.
Sir, in conclusion, I am happy to inform the august House that we shall rehabilitate these three provincial stadia, namely, Kasama, Maramba and Solwezi in order to bring them to a good standard.
Finally, I wish to commend members of staff who have shown zeal and enthusiasm in ensuring that we deliver a better service in 2012 and beyond.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this Vote. In so doing, I want to state that I wholly support the Vote. I also congratulate our colleagues who joined us after the three recently held by-elections.
Mr Chairperson, I was listening very keenly to our hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport as he gave his policy debate and noted that there was a bias towards labour matters, admittedly so because he is a labour practitioner.
Sir, I stand here mainly to debate sports matters which have been relegated to the bottom of most of our enterprise as we debate in this House.
Mr Chairperson, as you know, sport is a social phenomenon that creates a lot of excitement in our citizens. In fact, for most people in the world, it generates so much excitement that it almost reaches fanatical proportions and creates such so strong an appeal that those who have realised its power take advantage of it to advance certain objectives. Unfortunately, in Zambia, we have not been able to do that. That is why, forty-seven years after Independence, we have nothing to show in the area of sport. Even in the hon. Minister’s presentation, I think that, out of the measures outlined, when it came specifically to sport, all he did was mainly to emphasise the issue of participation, which is where we have gone wrong. We have tended to emphasise participation in some of these already set tournaments with no tangible measure proposed that go to show how we will move forward as a nation to develop our sport and begin to develop champions in our youths like other nations so that we also reap the benefits of sports.
Sir, as you know, sports, as I said, is a social enterprise in which there are two things: the spectator and the player. Mainly, the spectators participate by way of recreative activities, whereas the players will participate for two reasons: as a form of creation, for example, if the hon. Members take part in sport, it is mainly for recreation and as a way of preserving their health, and, more importantly, it can also be used by players as a means of livelihood, especially professional and modern sports. All these things lead to what we call a feel-good factor which, as you know, we have used to unite our people in this nation. We have also used it to mobilise our people socially. Hon. Members of Parliament have also used sports to mobilise their people for political objectives. It is, therefore, important that we place sports on an equal footing with other enterprises that are served by our politics.
Mr Speaker, first of all, we have not been able to reap any benefits or indeed, derive maximum benefits because our institutional framework that supports our sport is not at an optimum level of delivery. As you know, our sport at the moment is run in two ways. The first one is through the ministry at the headquarters and the other one is through the National Sports Council of Zambia (NSCZ). There is nothing wrong with this arrangement except to say that in its current form, the NSCZ is very weak and vulnerable. Nobody respects it. As you know, there are some associations which are powerful which do not respect it. They will not even go to it. They go straight to the now, Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sports whenever they need any guidance.
Sir, the National Sports Council of Zambia Act should be amended because in its current form, it has no teeth to bite. In its current form, it is grossly under funded. What can K620 million do for an organisation that is supposed to promote sports in this country when the Zambia National Football Team spends more than that for the whole year? What can they do with that amount of money? They can do nothing and because the associations know that they are basically impotent or moribund, they tend to even disregard the NSCZ. That is why the NSCZ fails to discipline some of the erring associations. The NSCZ should be given more teeth and more funding. If that will not be done, then scrap it off because it will continue failing to meet the expectations of the people.
Mr Speaker, secondly, our sport has not been able to move forward because we have neglected the whole important aspect of youth development. You can never achieve anything in sport if you only emphasise on participating in tournaments. If you mention to us that we are going to the African Cup of Nations, I will just tell you that we will go there and come back empty handed. We will have spent billions, just as we did last year, the year before and the other year. We are going to London in 2012. We are going to host the Under 20 Southern African Development Community (SADC) Games here.
Mr Chairperson, in the absence of a sound youth development programme, we will never succeed in sports. I can guarantee you, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will always be reluctant to put money in an enterprise that is not bringing any value to this nation. So, you should look at this important aspect of youth development.
Sir, one of the reasons we do not do well is because there is a serious disconnect between the Ministry of Education, Science and Vocational Training and the Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport. It is the Ministry of Education, Science and Vocational Training which provides the pool of these youths from where we can draw the talent from. In fact, the time our sports used to do well was when sports activities were under the Ministry of Education, Science and Vocational Training. Now, in the last few years, we have completely detached sports from the Ministry of Education, Science and Vocational Training.
Sir, as a result, we are in this state of affairs where even nations such as South Africa, which were only admitted recently to the international sporting fraternity has gotten more honors than Zambia. South Africa has even been to the football world cup. It has even won the African Cup of Nations for soccer. We have never been able to do that. It is a joke to call Zambia a footballing nation. We are not such a nation. As evidence shows, we are not a sports powerhouse. As my hon. Minister of Health would say, where is the evidence that indeed we are a sport powerhouse? There is nothing we are good at other than participating and coming back. This is because our institutional framework is wrong. Our youth development programmes are non-existent. We have relied on individuals such as…
The Chairperson: Order!
Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.
{mospagebreak}
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, before we went on a break, I was talking about youth development. I did mention that it is a very important prerequisite to success in any sporting enterprise.
Mr Chairperson, I will give an example of myself as an individual when I went into youth development sports in 2002 I was able to go round the country with my small team Afrisport. In Mansa, I was able to discover Emmanuel Mbola who is the left back for the national soccer team today and I was living with him at home. When I went to Mufulira, I was able to discover Rainford Kalaba who, today, is an important member of our national soccer team after having played for Afrisport. When I went to Chililabombwe, I scoured the entire city and discovered Stopila Sunzu who is also now an important member of our national soccer team.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, in Kitwe, where I was living, I discovered Jacob Mulenga at Lechwe High School. Today, he is a very important member of our national soccer team. I discovered many players who are plying their trade outside the country. Those who have not made it into the current national team are playing for a number of clubs in the local league. In the current national team alone, there are at least four or five whom I discovered. This was as a result of an elaborate youth soccer development programme which I developed. We need to invest our money in youth development as opposed to our current way of doing things. We have been pouring billions into sending ill-prepared sides to participate in various tournaments.
Mr Speaker, I have to conclude because of time. I can talk about issues to do with sport because it is very close to my heart. All I would like to say is that to have good results, as I have said, you need correct institutional and legal framework. Secondly, you need development plans particularly at youth level and thirdly, quality athletes whom you develop from your youth development side. We need sound long-term sports youth development programmes.
Mr Chairperson, fourthly, you need quality infrastructure. Efforts to develop athletes must be supported by quality infrastructure. That is why the MMD started the construction of the stadium in Ndola which you are struggling to open. I am surprised that even when it was finished three months ago, you still cannot hand it over to the Zambian people so that they can use it. We were assured that it would open on the eleventh. I am waiting to see whether it will because I read somewhere that the opening was postponed. I think that we need to move quickly so that the people can be given this infrastructure.
Mr Speaker, we also need sound management. Nowadays, we cannot run a successful sporting enterprise if the managers have no managerial abilities. Unfortunately, this is the situation that we have in Zambia.
The hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport complained that our friends in football fired a coach and went and recruited another without telling him. Definitely, this is not the way an organisation is run. As a result, you have said that you will not pay the new coach. I do not blame you. I blame the managers of the sport.
We need capacity in that area because sport, like I said earlier, is an enterprise like any other and answers to sound management practices. If, therefore, you do not have sound managers in place, you will pour in billions and never achieve anything.
Mr Chairperson, lastly, we need money. We can never achieve anything worth talking about in sports if we do not allocate sufficient resources to various sports disciplines. You have given K600 million to the NSCZ. What can it do with this amount? K200 million has been allocated for sports associations. What will they do with that amount?
With such allocations, I do not anticipate good results. Having said this, I want to congratulate our Under-20 team for its good performance in an on-going regional soccer tournament. The team is simply showing us the power of the youths. Hon. Minister, you must begin to pay particular attention to matters of sport as well. I am very worried that there is a danger that labour matters will drown the sports portfolio of your ministry. You have outlined more than twelve initiatives, but only one or two on sports.
Lastly, I also want to request through the hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport for His Excellency to make an appearance one day at one of the sporting events, particularly where the national team is playing, even if its is for ceremonial reasons because for our people, it would a create a feel good factor. I am aware that he is not a soccer fan, but would still like to urge him to appear at one event for the sake of the famous feel good factor which he can bring.
Mr Chairperson, the role of an hon. Member of Parliament, particularly in the Opposition, is obviously to provide oversight and constructive criticism. I believe that I have made the necessary suggestions for the Executive to make a difference.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate regarding this important Vote of the Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport.
Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir
Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, the Government …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised.
Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order which hinges on the sanctity and authority of this august House.
Sir, Parliament is one of the three wings of the Government and is created by Part V of the Constitution. Further, at Article 87 (1)(2), this House is provided with strict privileges and immunities. This is so because the citizens of Zambia expect Parliament to exercise its legislative oversight on related national matters. Its work should be devoid of any intimidation or victimisation by anyone.
It is on this basis that Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia at Section 3 states:
“There shall be freedom of speech and debate in the Assembly. Such freedom of speech and debate shall not be liable to be questioned in any court or place outside the Assembly”.
Sir, I put emphasis on the aspect of questioning debate outside this Assembly.
In addition, the same Article at Section 25 reinforces this privilege at (b), which states as follows:
“Any person who publishes any false or scandalous libel on the Assembly or any report which willfully misrepresents, in any way, any proceedings of the Assembly or any Committee shall be guilty of an offence and shall be libel on conviction to a fine not exceeding 5,000 penalty units or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both.”
Mr Chairperson, as I stated all these legal provisions are meant to give this House and all its hon. Members the due space within which they are supposed to perform to the expectations of the Zambian people.
Mr Chairperson, as the House may recall, on 25th November, 2011, when the hon. Deputy Minister for Lusaka Province was debating, Hon. Livune raised the following point of order:
“Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister and colleague in order to debate so provocatively and reduce the dignity of some chiefs in some regions by debating in that manner and bringing a tribal issue on the Floor of the House when he is the one protecting the tribe he has mentioned and is failing to condemn tribalism in his own Cabinet?”.
Mr Chairperson, in the ruling the Hon. Mr Speaker had this to say:
“The hon. Minister is trying to counsel against tribalism and in so doing I urge him to keep that line of thought and conclude the debate.”
Mr Chairperson, the simple interpretation of this ruling is that the Hon. Mr Speaker was encouraging counsel against tribalism. To add to this, the hon. Deputy Minister, on a later date when he realised that his statement could have injured some people, categorically apologised and took back his words as is expected of any mature and upright person.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling on whether people should be allowed to insult the integrity and decorum of the Speaker, who is the head of this honourable House.
Hon. Government Members: Hammer!
Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, in the Daily Mail of today, 9th December, 2011 on page 2, which I will lay on the Table, under the headline Arrest me HH dares Sata, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, the president of United Party for National Development (UPND) is quoted as follows:
“Mr Hichilema also accused the Speaker of the National Assembly, Patrick Matibini, of being biased against the Opposition in the House. “I do not mind being taken to court. How could the Speaker allow Miles Sampa to issue tribal remarks on the Floor? ” he asked.
“Mr Hichilema said that he doubted the credibility of the Speaker who he described as a “good Judge”. Mr Hichilema was making reference to an incidence where Mr Sampa said in Parliament that Tonga men should consider marrying Bemba women if they are to ascend to the presidency. Mr Sampa later apologised and withdrew his statement in Parliament. Mr Hichilema accused the Speaker of siding with PF Members of Parliament (MPs) and ignoring points of order raised by UPND MPs’.”
Mr Chairperson, surely could it be tolerated for Mr Speaker’s innocent ruling to cause that his integrity, which he has earned through many years of impeccable performance, be ridiculed in the public and press in the manner that Mr Hichilema has done?
Sir, he claims that the Hon. Mr Speaker sides with hon. PF Members of Parliament and ignores points of order raised by hon. UPND Members of Parliament. I wonder whether the hon. UPND Members of Parliament subscribe to this obnoxious and unwarranted accusation. It ought to be stated that Mr Hichilema, being a president of a party which has some hon. Members of Parliament, should have used the due process to raise the objection to the ruling if it was not personal and driven by pure and naked hatred towards the Hon. Mr Speaker …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!
I will discourage you from reading. Go straight to the point and make your point of order.
You may proceed, please.
Mr Chilangwa: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, my interest is that of all of us in here, namely, to protect and defend the House from unwarranted attacks. As such, I seek your serious ruling on whether the conduct of Mr Hichilema does not constitute a serious breach of the Constitution and Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia and whether it is not a serious affront against the integrity of the Hon. Mr Speaker and the whole House. I beg for your ruling.
Mr Lubinda: Lay the newspaper on the Table.
Mr Chilangwa laid the paper on the Table.
Hon. Government Members: Very good. Job well done!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
In view of the fact that the point of order has raised a number of important issues, I, therefore, defer my ruling to a later date to enable me study all the points that have been adequately raised.
May the hon. Member continue, please.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Livune: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Sir, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that the Government must provide a better and sustainable labour and investment relationship by fostering a genuine tripartite partnership involving the workers, employers’ investment and the Government. This should be achieved, among others, by fairly modern balanced, but reasonably stable labour and investment policies, laws, procedures, processes and practices. The main objective of the Government should be to achieve a balance between protecting workers’ rights and promoting investment. The Government should ensure that it meets its respective obligations to all the members of our society.
Mr Chairperson, practices such as casualisation must be discouraged at all costs. There are a number of issues that surround the Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport. I must as well inform your good office that I wholeheartedly support the Vote to that ministry, which is faced with many challenges. I am also grateful that the former Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) President is the current hon. Minister the Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport. He knows too well the many challenges that are faced by that ministry. We expect the workers, for once, to get the much-sought-after relief which they have yearned for over the years in the midst of frustrations.
Sir, the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security ─ I beg your pardon, I do not know the other things. I think I would be very much interested …
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: The other things are youth and sport.
Laughter
Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, the previous speaker spoke more on sport. I am more inclined to labour now.
Laughter
Mr Livune: As such, Mr Chairperson, the workers are too expectant.
The other important issue to notice is that the other former Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport was also a former ZCTU Chief. It is hoped that, for once, the many turbulent issues will be settled.
The national unions have a lot of problems and most of them are very much known. The hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport, at one time, had a lot of issues, also, to resolve with the same ministry. Now that he is an hon. Minister, he has only changed the cap from being a unionist because, today, he is on the other side. So, we expect him to rise above board and face those same issues that were impediments, unfair and perceived to be bad before the eye of an employee.
Mr Chairperson, at one time, in this House, there was a request by my good brother, Hon. Kampyongo or Hon. Kapyanga, one of the two hon. Members, encouraging that the Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport should go further to try and see if it can be able to request, or in a way, share with other hon. Members on how to curb some of these problems in the vast areas that we come from. This is because the unfair labour treatments are all over the country. It is clear that the ministry is underfunded and as such most labour inspectors are not able to inspect most of these institutions across the country. It was believed or thought that the hon. Members here would be of great use to the ministry in the respective constituencies to help and see if they can be able to mitigate some of these unfair labour practices, by way of engaging the respective employers at various levels. So, it is in this light, that I encourage the ministry to take that advice seriously so that the workers across the country could get some sort of relief in that perspective.
Mr Chairperson, there are reports that border on some activities which are not good such as some inspectors allegedly being corrupt. It is believed that when the workers in the country go to complain or submit these reports, sometimes, they do not receive good treatment. In some cases, there could be even allegations that the inspectors receive kick backs. Some of them, those who are assigned to the agricultural sector or in bakery industries, receive things such as loaves of bread and other things at the expense of the lowly-paid employees.
To curb that, Sir, it is hoped that the ministry would look at the issue of inspectors seriously and coupled with that, the debate from Hon. Hamududu, which was very important, that the issue of perks or the well-being of these inspectors is taken into consideration. Sometimes, maybe, it is the perks that they are paid that could subject them to getting compromised by these employers who mistreat our employees across the country.
Mr Chairperson, it is in the public domain that we have seen, in some cases, in some bakeries, our people being quarantined there and these things have been shown on television and many of us have seen them. We hope that the ministry is alive to those facts and will be able to apply some mechanisms that will bring relief to a great deal.
Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!
{mospagebreak}
Mr Livune: Sir, the Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport is also responsible for social security. Now, in that regard, there are very good institutions that are practicing that particular activity in this republic. I mentioned institutions like the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA).
The ministry is responsible for that institution and, therefore, the hon. Minister should be able to shed some light on its performance at the appropriate time. Organisations such as NAPSA and the Workers’ Compensation Fund are very good institutions which play a very big role in the upgrading of the national economy of this republic. We should be able to get briefings and reports on these institutions and they must be protected because they mean well.
Mr Chairperson, for example, NAPSA has suffered in its operations because it is perceived to delay the payment of benefits when, in fact, there have been records cases of the institution having paid benefits in good time. Now, because it is bundled together with other institutions that take long to pay benefits due to their operational nature, sometimes, people misinterpret what could be evil about the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) and refer it to NAPSA.
Sir, I think it is important that the ministry comes out clearly and draws distinctions so that people can know which of these institutions are still performing well. Once that is done, we can then create a situation whereby people will appreciate the institutions that they have. If there are any negatives, again, it is in that line that we have another opportunity to correct those issues.
Mr Chairperson, I also wish to implore the ministry to create a favourable atmosphere for the workers themselves. The ministry should open its doors so that everyone who feels aggrieved, if there is any injustice anywhere in the modus operandi, can reach the ministry without a lot of hustles whereby people are asked all kinds of questions. In some cases, whistleblowers are not even protected because some of these employers we have around are not merciful. Once it is known that the one who has reported an injustice is employee X, that employee will lose his or her job.
Mr Chairperson, in light of the guidance that others should be given a chance to also be able to contribute, I would want to end by congratulating the hon. Minister on his appointment once more and hope that he can rise above board and do just that which is good for the Zambian worker.
Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Minister for Luapula Province (Mr Mwila): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the budget for the Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport. I am in full support of this budget and I want to commend my hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport for a well-articulated policy statement to this august House.
Mr Chairperson, I want to raise two issues. When the hon. Minister gave a ministerial statement on the minimum wage, a lot of questions came up and I thought that when this Vote came up, a lot of people would rise to talk about it. The hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport has made a commitment that unions will be run by their own members.
Mr Chairperson, this commitment was proved, two weeks ago, when the Mineworkers Union of Zambia (MUZ) conducted its elections to elect the union’s president. The Government did not interfere. The union had to elect its own leaders unlike what used to happen, in the past, whereby the Government was interfering in the running of unions. In some cases, the Government could decide whether one could stand for a certain position or not. That is now a thing of the past and I commend the hon. Minister for that.
Mr Chairperson, secondly, when the hon. Minister was giving a ministerial statement on the minimum wage, what people did not understand is that there were two issues that the President had raised earlier. He talked about the retirement age and the review of the minimum wage. People thought that the hon. Minister will just go on an anthill and announce the figures. There is a process which has to be undertaken. First of all, the Government has to consult the Zambia Federation of Employers and the unions. This is what we call a tripartite consultative council. After that process has finished, then, the Government will announce the figures or come up with a statutory instrument (SI). So, the hon. Minister has done extremely well with regard to this matter by being very cautious. This is not a dictatorship type of government because we have to consult.
With those few words, I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the chance to make a brief contribution on this Vote. In the presentation by the hon. Minister, he mentioned that there was policy failure, particularly with regard to labour, but also indicated in the same submission that there were achievements that were made in 2011. The contradiction is that you cannot achieve and have policy failure at the same time.
Mr Chairperson, secondly, on the issues that have been debated around the minimum wage, there is no dispute that a process must be engaged in. What we debated, last time, was that there is no time line when these outputs will have impact on the creation of employment. The consultative processes and everything else that the Government is doing are welcome, but we are looking for a time line for practical outputs.
Sir, the hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport has touched on the issues of enhancing capacity and dealing with the issues around productivity. Now, the disconnection is that out of a total of K4,554,933,368 allocated to the labour department, he has provided only K167,735,163 for capacity building. So, I am wondering what sort of capacity will be built to be able to address the challenges that he has in this particular department. Further, less than K200 million is for capacity building out of the National Productivity Development Department’s total allocation of K2,728,366,557.
So, we have to deal with the core issues of the ministry of creating job opportunities, which remain quite unclear. In terms of giving us a strategy, we have core issues that are there in the labour market. At present, over 400,000 are casual employees. Now, we need to find a practical and clear strategy on how we will deal with the issue of casualisation. The hon. Minister has remained silent on the Government’s policy and strategy on casualisation, which is very key particularly as it impacts on employment rights.
Mr Chairperson, furthermore, one of the challenges we have, particularly in reducing the cost of doing business, is how we arrive at the retirement and redundancy packages. That is why you find that, in most of the organisations, the Government included, people remain unpaid. We need to hear from the hon. Minister on how he is going to address this critical problem of retirement benefits as it impacts on the cost of doing business.
More importantly, we should take note that this is actually generating a lot of casualisation because people are running away from paying and employing workers permanently because they cannot afford to pay retirement packages. Now, the hon. Minister has remained silent on this issue. The hon. Minister has also remained silent on how he is going to attack the whole issue of productivity in the market. What he has outlined are strategies for 2012. This will not result in the creation of jobs, unless he really looks at changing his strategies.
Mr Chairperson, for example, the strategy to procure more vehicles for the Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport so that it can increase its movements up and down and conduct inspections will not necessarily culminate in creating more and more jobs. Secondly, as part of the strategy for 2011, the hon. Minister says he is going to increase the number of meetings with social partners. Good as this may be, it becomes difficult to see how this will culminate in dealing with the challenges of youth employment. Thirdly, there will be more conferences, but what is on the ground is to create jobs, it is not to sit in rooms, have water and continue to dialogue when the cancer of unemployment continues to spread.
Mr Chairperson, there is emphasis on carrying out surveys. These are important in order to know the extent of the problem and the solution that can be crafted, but on the core issue of addressing the main problems, the hon. Minister has remained silent. Yes, the reality of Government is difficult, but he needs to come out of the shell and say what he is going to do in terms of creating jobs, particularly for youths and not, on the other hand, condemn foreign direct investment (FDI) and say, “No, this has not made an impact.” You need to add to FDIs in order to deal with some of the problems that you face. So, we must continue to attract more and more FDIs as a mechanism to enhance our capacity to create youth employment and opportunities for our locals to be able to have entrepreneurial connectivity with FDIs.
Mr Chairperson, I recall that by bringing Pick n Pay, for example, the backward linkage is that we now have 45 to 50 per cent shelf space for locally produced products. That is how you create employment and this is coming out of FDIs. So, we must be careful with how we treat FDIs. I would encourage the Government to continue courting FDIs but, at the same time, encourage people to have opportunities to interact with FDIs.
Mr Chairperson, lastly, I still look forward to the day when there will be a pronouncement on the minimum wage, whether by sector or by whatever mechanism. That will be critically important. I also still look forward to a day when clarity will be given on how we shall tackle casualisation and how the Government is going to deal with issues around retirement benefits. Overall, the core business of the ministry must remain job creation, productivity enhancement and providing hope for the people of Zambia, particularly the youth who are roaming the streets. Hon. Minister, you have a tough task ahead of you. I support your Budget, but deal with the core challenges.
I thank you, Sir.
The Deputy Minister of Defence (Colonel Kaunda): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me this chance to debate this Vote. I will be very brief.
Mr Chairperson, I would like to congratulate Hon. Kalila for finding those wonderful footballers. I would also like to comment mostly on the issue of sports. Sport is played by almost everybody in this country. However, we seem to have made football the only sport in the country. In my view, we have lost out on many honours in this country. If you go round Zambia and ask our youths who Mr Samuel Matete is, he/she will not know who he is. If you go to schools and ask the pupils who Yotam Muleya was there are very few who will know him, and yet these two people brought honour to this country. Mr Samuel Matete is the only Zambian who has brought gold and silver medals in world athletics to this country. However, this country has completely forgotten about him.
Mr Chairperson, in my youth, I played a lot of sports. I played golf and was once a vice-captain of a golf club. I ran a very good basketball team in the army that won many honours. I was also Chairperson for the Amateur Boxing Association of Zambia (ABAZ) and City of Lusaka Football Club at some point.
I would like the hon. Minister to appreciate that football is not the only sport in Zambia. I think time has come for us to rethink our sporting industry. Sport is a big industry. Look at the Kenyans; they take billions of dollars to Kenya through athletics and not football. Look at boxing; there are millions of dollars that have come into the country through boxing. Whereas for us, we have spent trillions of kwacha on football since the days of Dr Kenneth Kaunda, nothing has been brought here. It is time we thought through this, hon. Minister.
Mr Chairperson, I suggest that in the next ten years after the Africa Cup of Nations and World Cup, the senior team is suspended from playing international football.
Laughter
Colonel Kaunda: The money which is spent on the national team should go to schools. I would like to see the hon. Minister build stadia in schools, not football grounds, where we can have running tracks and jumping pits for the youngsters so that they can learn sports from there. That way, we can build all our sports such as basketball, athletics, boxing and rugby upwards. We have talents in these sports, but we have completely forgotten about them. We have put all our efforts in football. Football has failed us. So, there is no point in going ahead with a dead horse.
Hon. Minister, please, let us make sure that if the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) wants to continue running soccer, it should raise its own funds. The English team continues to perform well, thus it is justified for its government to continue supporting it. This money that was going to football must now go to the youths at the grassroots. Ten years from now, we shall have a good team for all the sports, including football.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to debate on this Vote. Firstly, I would like to pay tribute to Dr Kalila for the contribution he has made to the development of sport in the country by discovering some of the best players that are featuring in our country’s national football team today. I would like to ask him to work with us. My ministry is at Government Complex Building on the eleventh Floor. From the debate, I think we have a lot of people who have a passion for sports who can assist in the improvement of sports. This is the way it should be. Sport is not just supposed to be run by the ministry. Just because one has been appointed hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport does not make him or her the best sportsman/women. I think sportsmen/women are there in the field. Sports administrators are there and some of them are in Parliament as we heard from the good contribution of the hon. Member of Parliament. I think between you and our ministry, we can make a good contribution to the improvement of sport.
Mr Chairperson, probably the reason we had problems before is that some people had an ‘I know it all’ mentality without necessarily making any consultations. This is why the emphasis in all the sports that we are running in this country shall be based on broader consultations so that we are able to improve on what we are doing because it is only when we work together that we can perform better than we are performing at the moment.
Mr Chairperson, I would like to assure you that we are looking at expanding our infrastructure so that it can cater a wide range of sports disciplines. We are re-looking at our policies so that we can meet the demands of a number of sports activities. I would also like to assure you that I have been to more sporting functions than I have been to labour functions since I took office.
If we are going to prevent unplanned for change due to uprisings from the youths, we must be able to provide smooth and sufficient guidance for our youth.
On comments that the NSCZ is weak and not providing the necessary leadership, I would say that, again, this comes back to who plays what role. If the goalkeeper would also like to score, then you will have a problem because there will be a vacuum in his position.
Therefore, we all have a special role to play; that is the ministry, the NSCZ and the fans themselves. It is important that we co-ordinate the thinking of all the people who are involved. However, in situations where in some sports people go directly to the powers that be, the role played by the council in such sports disciplines is weakened. It is not necessarily true that the NSCZ has got no powers. It all depends on how much political interference is there and the offices that are involved.
Since I became hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport, I have discouraged quite a good number of people who came to my office and those who phone in order to discuss football. I tell them to discuss football in a tripartite forum involving those who are running football, the NSCZ and ourselves. That is the only way we shall be able to resolve the problems we are having in the various sports disciplines. I can assure you that we shall move forward that way. Hopefully, it will benefit not only the people involved in sport involved, but also the entire country. The NSCZ has been given all the powers that it deserves as per legislation so that it is able to operate professionally.
As a ministry, immediately after the opening of Parliament, we facilitated the organising of a football match between the Opposition Hon. Members and those from the Ruling Party. It was interesting that the result was a draw. We are looking forward to some of you, including some of my cousins, participating in such activities so that we can become more united.
The Government has made it possible for all constituencies to receive football jerseys and balls. We shall make arrangements for all those who have not received their kit to do so because we want to strengthen the sporting activities in all the constituencies. I would like to assure you that we are very much committed to improving sport in our country.
Hon. Livune and Hon. Mutati talked about casualisation. This is another issue of priority to us. We believe that it is not individuals who are supposed to be casuals, but the job. If a job can be sustained, then it does not matter who is doing. These are the issues we are looking at. I think the law is very clear in some ways. Although, again, because of the reasons which are very difficult to understand, certain parts of the law have been ignored and people have been exploited. We need to sit down and work together to strengthen the law in order to protect our citizens.
Furthermore, strengthening the law against casualisation will also be good for productivity because if, for instance, at the airport most of the people who handle our luggage were casual workers and if there were no benefits that at stake, those people were going to start stealing from the customers. However, if the individual who is carrying out such duties has a pensionable job, he or she knows that if he tampers with the customer’s luggage, he or she will have a lot to lose. Therefore, such people are more committed to the job than a casual worker. In essence, there are quite a good number of benefits in making people’s jobs pensionable. I definitely agree with the hon. Members who are against casualisation. As we work together, we should be able to turn things around so that we make all the stakeholders happy as regards this issue.
Another issue which was talked about is social security. One thing which we are working on is to let the institutions running social security programmes professionally without any elements of political patronage. Institutions from the private sector can also run some pension schemes successfully. I believe that even quasi-government institutions can be as profitable as others because it is not the ownership per se that matters, but the management. There are many private companies that have collapsed because of bad management. The sky is the limit if we give such institutions the necessary autonomy to carry out their business professionally.
I would like to thank my colleague, the hon. Minister for Luapula Province for his contribution. From time to time, we shall be consulting so that we see how we can manage the affairs of our workers reagarding the minimum wage which was also talked about by Hon. Mutati. We would like to educate the public on the meaning of the minimum wage. Currently, there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding this issue.
The minimum wage does not cut across all forms of employment. It covers a very small number of people who work in shops and those who are not covered by any collective bargaining agreement or have signed contracts. Unfortunately, everybody thinks that the minimum wage cuts across all forms of employment.
Those who have the collective bargaining agreement in place should just use the minimum wage as a point of reference. I think we shall also try and see if there csn be legislation regarding the minimum wage. We need to put in place a sector-based minimum wage strategy. Both the mining and manufacturing sectors need to have their own respective minimum wages. We are moving step by step. That is why we are taking our time. We need to look at issues from all angles.
Once again, I would like to thank all of you for your comments regarding productivity. This is on top of our agenda because we cannot grow as an economy if there is no production. Even when I was trade union leader, I used to say that trade unionism is not synonymous with indiscipline because, firstly, we have to produce. In industrial relations, the employee and employer should not see each other as being on two different sides. They are all on the same side of the coin. If anything, the investor may be investing while he has some resources stack somewhere else. Therefore, even if the company fails, he may have something to fall back on.
As for an ordinary worker who has no investment whatsoever, the only thing that he or she depends on is employment. There are many senior stakeholders in an industry than the owner of the company. If we are on the same side of the coin, it is important that we make sure that productivity becomes the key. People can only share if there is something to be shared. We shall make sure that we work using the tripartite type of arrangement for the benefit of all.
Hon. Mutati also spoke about the free trade areas (FTAs). I did not condemn FTAs. I said that although they where there, they did not achieve its intended purposes. We need to do more so that we can +et maximum benefits from the FTAs.
Mr Chairperson, I hope I have covered all the issues which were raised. Considering what time it is and the fact that hon. Members are hungry, if I have not covered all the issues that were raised, we will address them at a later stage because it is our responsibility as PF Government. We are one house.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
VOTE 44/01 – (Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport – Headquarters – K18,286,075,875).
Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 542, on Programme 5079, Activity 001 – Transport Management – K1,105,885,368. An amount of K500 million was allocated in the 2011 Budget and it has gone up in the 2012 Budget. What is the cause for this increase?
The Deputy Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport (Mr Mbulu): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5079, Activity 001 – Transport Management – K1,105,885,368 is required to cover the cost of purchasing fuel, new vehicles and to maintain both the old and new fleet of vehicles. The increase of K605,885,368 million is due to the anticipated increase in the price of goods and services in the year of 2012.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5010, Activity 004 – Management Information System – K30,000,000. I note that an amount of K191,091,858 was allocated in the 2011 Budget against K30 million in the 2012 Budget. Why is there this reduction?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to cover the cost of maintaining an efficient, effective and reliable management of information system in the ministry. The reduction of K161,091,858 is due to the budgetary constraints that we have as a ministry.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5009, Activity 005 – Financial Management System – Nil. Why is there no provision in the 2012 Budget?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5009, Activity 005 – Financial Management System – Nil is required to cover the cost of the financial management system. The activity has now been placed and split into activities under the unit.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 542 on Programme 5075, Activity 001 – Services to Ministers and Permanent Secretary – K700,000,000. Secondly, there is a replication on page 545 on Programme 5075, Activity 002 – Services to the Minister – K200,000,000; Activity 003 – Services to the Deputy Minister – K175,000,000 and Activity 004 – Services to the Permanent Secretary – K520,000,000. The Programme total is K895,000,000. Can the hon. Minister explain the replication? What are these services to these constitutional office holders?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5075 – Constitutional Office Holders – K520,000,000 is required to cover the cost of running the offices of the hon. Minister, hon. Deputy Minister and the Permanent Secretary. I just want to clarify that there is literally no duplication here because the hon. Member must appreciate that we are a merged ministry. We had Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development and the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. The circumstances in which we are operating, it must be appreciated that all the structures have remained literally the same. We are in the process of merging the two ministries practically. That is why there is this scenario.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 44/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 44/02 – (Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport – Labour Department – K4,554,933,368).
Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 548, Programme 5003, Activity 008 – Long Term Training – K102,735,163 and Activity 023 – Training – K65,000,000. Can I assume that this training is short term? What is involved in training different from long-term training?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5003, Activity 008 – Long Term Training – K102,735,163 and Activity 023 – Training – K65,000,000, previously, training was just addressed as one item whether or not it was long term or short term. However, under the circumstances, the ministry has decided to split training depending on the requirements. Therefore, there will be short-term training, which will entail the needs that will be established at a particular time will have to be given training as required. However, there is also long-term training, which entails sending employees to schools and professional institutions. That is basically the implication.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Monde: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 548, Programme 5002, Activity 007 – Labout Day Celebration – K350,000,000. I have noted that in the 2011 Budget, K150 million was allocated, but K350 million has been allocated in the 2012 Budget. While we have heard statements that the PF Government is going to reduce the luxuries that come with the Labour Day, could the hon. Minister explain the K200 million increase for next year?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, on Page 548, Programme 5002, Activity 007 – Labour Day Celebration – K350,000,000 is required to cover the cost of preparation in the Labour Day Celebrations. The increase of K200 million che, is due to the anticipated increase in the cost of goods and services in the year 2012.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 548, Programme 5069, Activity 006 – Awareness of Workers’ Rights – Nil. Why has this activity been taken away from this department?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, on Page 548, Programme 5069, Activity 006 – Awareness of Workers’ Rights – Nil, this activity has been budgeted for under the Planning Unit.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Simbao: Why?
Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 548, Programme 5079, Activity 001 – Transport Management – K265,000,000. Why has this provision been kept constant?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, on Page 548, Programme 5079, Activity 001 – Transport Management – K265,000,000, this provision is required to cover the cost of purchasing fuel and a new vehicle and to maintain both the old and new fleet.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 44/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 44/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 44/04 – (Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport – Occupational Safety and Health Services – K2,842,731,124).
Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 552, Programme 5069, Activity 009 – Inspection of Factories – Nil. There is no provision for 2012. Does this mean that we are now assured that there is no more ill-treatment of workers in factories?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, on Page 552, Programme 5069, Activity 009 – Inspection of Factories – Nil, this provision was required to facilitate inspection of factories in order to ensure adherence to occupational safety and health standards in conformity with the Factories Act. The non-budgeting of K580,000,000 is because the Budget line has been split according to the specialised inspection units in the department.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 552, Programme 5000, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments – K93,605,320. This is a huge reduction from this year’s K247,847,465. What is the cause for this huge reduction?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, on Page 552, Programme 5000, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments – K93,605,320 is a provision that is required to pay fixed allowances such as leave travel benefits and retention allowances in the National Productivity and Development Department. The reduction of K154, 242,145 is because most claims where cleared in 2011. It is, therefore, expected that the number of claims will be less in the year 2012.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 44/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 44/05 – (Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport – Planning and Research Department K7, 109, 405,969).
Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 555, Programme 5069, Activity 014 – Private Sector Development Activities – K50,000,000, I see a reduction of 50 per cent from this year’s allocation of K100,000,000. What is the reason for this reduction?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, on Page 555, Programme 5069, Activity 014 – Private Sector Development Activities – K50,000,000, the provision is required to promote the private sector. However, the decrease of K50,000,000 is due to budgetary constraints in the ministry.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 44/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 44/06 – (Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport – Social Security Department – K3,256,278,568).
Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 556, Programme 5069, Activity 007 – Social Security Reforms – K1,216,922,006. This year’s Budget had a provision of K183,765,525. What is the reason for this increase?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, on Page 556, Programme 5069, Activity 007 - Social Security Reforms – K1,216,922,006, this provision is required to cover the cost of facilitating review of the reforms in the social security sector in order to ensure an efficient and effective delivery system. The increase to K1,330,156,481 is due to the cost involved in carrying out an actuarial valuation in order to facilitate implementation of social security reforms.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 44/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 44/08 – (Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport – Sports Department – K17,856,040,491)
Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 139 – Rehabilitation and Upgrading of Olympic Swimming Pool (2012 Supreme Council for Sport in Africa Games (SCSA)) – K1,871,999,999 and Activity 163 – Rehabilitation of Hostels and Facilities at UNZA (2012 SCSA Games) – K1,808,000,000.
Sir, the amount for the rehabilitation and upgrading of the Olympic Swimming Pool is almost the same as that for the rehabilitation of the UNZA hostels and I feel it is too high. Can the hon. Minister indicate, exactly, what they want to do to this swimming pool?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to cover the cost of upgrading the Olympic Swimming Pool in order to host the Supreme Council for Sports in Africa Zone Six Under-Twenty Games to be hosted by our country. The increase to K1,871,999,999 is due to the extensive works to be carried out and the high cost of construction.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 150 – Rehabilitation of three Provincial Stadia – K483,651,954. May I be guided as to which these stadia are. Further, I would like to know why these provincial stadia are allowed to be used as beer halls.
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Member was paying attention, it was made clear by the hon. Minister in his policy statement which provincial stadia will be worked on. They are Solwezi, Maramba and Kasama.
Sir, the ministry is not aware that the stadia are being used as beer halls. If this is so, it is quite regrettable. As a responsible citizen and hon. Member of Parliament, he has a special obligation to police this on behalf of the nation.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5035, Activity 002 – Support to Senior National Football Team – K210,484,023. There has been a drastic reduction from K700 million to K210 million. One wonders what they can do with that amount. On Activity 005 – 2012 Africa Cup – K200,000,000, I would like the hon. Minister to indicate to this House whether this amount of money is adequate to send our national team to the Africa Cup of Nations and several other engagements that the team will have in 2012. If it is not, how will they finance these activities, and from which Budget lines?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, I am comfortable that the question is being posed by the former hon. Deputy Minister of the then Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development. At least, from his experience, he knows that the amounts that we have put here are not commensurate with what is required to run football in our country. However, this is what we can afford, for now, in terms of our budget line but, should there be a need, obviously, we will open our hands so that whoever is able to put in the little they can should be able to do so in order for us to move forward.
I thank you, Sir.
{mospagebreak}
Question put and agreed to.
Vote 44/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 44/09 – (Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport – Youth Affairs Department – K79,909,317,675).
Mr Taundi (Mangango): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5047 – Youth Affairs and Development. The whole programme has no provision for this coming year. Does it mean that the Government is doing away with youth affairs programmes?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to provide financial support to the youth in order to promote entrepreneurship among them. However, it has been re-introduced as Programme 5100 – Youth Development Fund.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5047, Activity 041 – Youth Skills Training and Development. The amount has moved from K34 million to K50 billion. What is the breakdown of this K50 billion?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, the K50 billion has been provided for Youth Skills Training and Development and the following provinces have been allocated K40 billion in total amongst them:
Province District
Eastern Nyimba
Luapula Kawambwa
Lusaka Luangwa
Muchinga Nakonde
Northern Mporokoso
North-Western Solwezi
Southern Namwala
Western Lukulu
Sir, amongst these districts, they will have to share the K40 billion. It is also important for the hon. Member to appreciate that there are certain requirements that should be fulfilled prior to this money’s disbursement, among them, land availability.
Mr Chairperson, the remaining K10 billion will be used for the rehabilitation of existing youth resource centres amongst the following districts:
District Amount (K)
Samfya 1 billion
Mukwela 1 billion
Chisangwa 500 million
Chinsali 1 billion
Chiyota 1 billion
Chama 1 billion
Kazungula 1 billion
Ikelenge 3.5 billion
Total 10 billion
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5100, Activity 002 – Grants to Youth Organisations – K4,000,000,000, Activity 003 – Administration Costs – K1,142,105,263. Last year, there was K7 billion for grants to youth organizations, but there is only K4 billion allocated this year. In Activity 003, there was K500 million allocated last year, but there is a provision of K1.1 billion this year. Could the hon. Minister clarify.
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, the K1,142,105,263 is required to cover the cost of administering the youth development fund.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – K322,595,120. I see an increase from K65 million in the 2011 Budget to K322 million in the 2012 Budget. This is almost five times what the 2011 budget provision was. What is the reason for this?
Secondly, may I have clarification on Programme 5006, Activity 038 – AARDO Executive Sessions – K578,572,094. In last year’s Budget there was a provision of K16 million. In the 2012 Budget, there is a provision of K578 million. What is the reason for this huge increase?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, the K322,595,120 is required to cover the payment of loans and advances to staff in the department in order to improve their welfare and motivate them. This increase is to enable more officers to access loans. As Hon. Dr Kazonga is aware we are a merged ministry.
I thank you, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: What about the second question?
Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, the K578,577,094 is required to cover the cost of hosting the Afro-Asia Rural Development Organisation (AARDO) Executive meeting. The increase to K578,577,094 is due to the increased cost in the supply of goods and services.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 44/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 46 – (Ministry of Health – K2,566,933,794,819 )
The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the 2012 Budget for the Ministry of Health to this august House.
Sir, the PF Government believes that good health is an essential prerequisite for sustainable national development. I am also pleased to note that this vision is actually shared by most Members of Parliament.
The Government shall remain committed to the implementation of all health programmes and priorities in the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP) and National Health Strategic Plan, 2011 to 2015. Importantly, the mission of the Government under the health sector shall be, to provide the people of Zambia with clean, caring and competent health services using the primary health care as the main vehicle for achieving our vision equitably.
Mr Chairperson, I wish to start by commending the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for significantly increasing the budgetary allocation to the Ministry of Health. In 2012, my ministry has been allocated K2,566,933,794,819 from K1,758,592,077,755 in 2011. Sir, this represents an increase of 46 per cent.
Mr Chairperson, the attainment of our health objectives will require that the country has adequate skilled human resource. The health sector has, however, continued to be played by critical shortages of human resource despite years of investment in the sector.
To address this crisis, my ministry has continued the recruitment of core health workers. As of October, 2011, a total of 1,161 health personnel had been recruited compared to 834 in 2010, bringing the total number of personnel to 32,150 against the required 56,621 for the entire Ministry of Health establishment.
In response to this challenge, the increased allocation for human resource from K152 billion in 2011 to K198 billion in 2012, will address priority interventions such as training, recruitment and retention. Out of this amount, K77 billion will be used for net recruitment of 2,500 new health personnel. In addition, funds have been allocated for liquidating staff debt, strengthening health regulatory structures and other support services at all levels.
Mr Chairperson, the PF Government recognises the importance of a legal framework that facilitates the people’s participation in improving their social well being. In this regard, the Ministry of Health in consultation with all stakeholders will develop and strengthen relevant legislation and policy frameworks for health service delivery to our people.
Sir, our national target is to significantly improve on the availability of essential health infrastructure and medical equipment so as to improve equity of access to quality health services at all levels. To this effect, my ministry has continued the construction of health facilities and the procurement and distribution of medical equipment.
Mr Chairperson, the Government’s policy is that the average distance between any community and the nearest health facility should be below 5 km. The increased allocation from K151 billion, in 2011, to K389 billion, in 2012, will be used to intensify rehabilitation and new construction of health infrastructure, in line with the SNDP, out of which K184 billion will be used to procure medical equipment in order to make these facilities optimally functional.
Mr Chairperson, in line with our socio-economic development agenda, addressing the current high burden of disease on our population is critical. While communicable diseases such as malaria, tuberculosis (TB) and HIV/AIDS have continued to be important causes of illness and death, the country now faces a growing problem of non-communicable diseases. From the outset, perhaps, I would advise and encourage hon. Members to set aside some time for physical exercise. I understand that, in fact, the practice has been that most hon. Members of Parliament spend, at least, half an hour a day on exercises in the early hours of the morning. I have no evidence of this, but I have also no reason to disbelieve it.
Laughter
Dr Kasonde: The increased budgetary allocation from K156 billion, in 2011, to K208 billion, in 2012, will address the following major challenges:
(I) Malaria;
(II) TB;
(III) maternal and child health;
(IV) HIV/AIDS; and
(V) non-communicable diseases.
This budget prioritises scaling up control, prevention and management of the above health challenges in our communities. Scaling up of priority public health interventions is aimed at reducing the burden of disease to levels of non-public health significance.
Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about clinical care and diagnostics services. The Ministry of Health realises the importance of providing its people with clean, caring and competent health services as close to the family as possible. This is in line with its party manifesto of ensuring that all have equitable access to quality and cost-effective health services.
In this regard, my ministry has prioritised continued improvement in clinical case management and the steady supply of drugs and other essential medical supplies. The improvement in the budgetary allocation from K137 billion, in 2011, to K303 billion, in 2012, will stabilise supply of essential drugs and other medical supplies. Out of this increment, K15 billion has been allocated to procurement of anti-retroviral (ARV) drugs and K16,072,978,234 to the Zambia National Blood Transfusion Service.
Mr Chairperson, lastly, in order to ensure that primary health care services are improved and our people have equitable access to quality health services, K208 billion has been allocated, in 2012, for district hospitals and health centres. This increment from K156 billion, in 2011, will facilitate implementation of the policy of our Government to fully abolish user fees on primary health care services.
Mr Chairperson, my ministry recognises the importance of widening the continuum of care by strengthening the hospital referral system. The improvement in the budgetary allocation from K116 billion, in 2011, to K118 billion, in 2012, will help improve the quality of hospital services. Investing in primary health care, as a strategy to attain our health vision, will continue to be emphasised. We shall focus on building a strong health system by ensuring availability of key health system inputs, including human resources, essential drugs, infrastructure and equipment.
We shall also make it our goal to build a strong accountable and transparent management and health delivery system. As health is not only dependent on health services, it will be crucial for the country to pay attention to other determinants of health, including nutrition, safe water, sanitation, better housing and improved literacy. My ministry will, through a multi-sectoral approach to service delivery, endeavour to work closely with all stakeholders, especially at the district level to ensure an improved health status for our people.
Thank you, Sir.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this golden opportunity of making a contribution to debate on this important Vote. I stand to support this Budget wholeheartedly. From the outset, I want to state that I commend the hon. Minister of Health and his team for exhibiting a spirit of pragmatism in implementing the PF policies in the Ministry of Health.
Mr Chairperson, I say so because from 2006 when I came to this Parliament, I kept reminding the MMD Government that the people of Chilubi and Mungwi districts were the most disadvantaged in the health sector. This is because these were the only two districts in the entire Northern Province, which had about twelve districts by then, that had no health institutions. However, despite constantly reminding the MMD Government, all just fell on deaf ears and that was a very sad development.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, today, I stand in this debating Chamber a proud Member of Parliament because in the two months the PF Government has been in power, I only talked about the same issue once and the pragmatic and action-oriented Government has moved in.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, it has been to Chilubi and all has been laid down.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: The process has started and, next month, the construction of a district hospital will begin. This is the way things are supposed to be.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, this Government is a working and listening one. I can assure my colleagues on your left that we want to show them that we can attend to the people’s problems.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, …
Mr Simbao: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I respect my brother who is debating very well, but is he in order to forget that last year I promised him that we were remaining with about nineteen districts and we were going to provide, at least five, with a health institution and Chilubi was going to be one of them. Is he in order to forget that promise?
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The ruling is that the hon. Member should take that reminder into account as he continues to debate.
May you continue, please.
Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, of course, that is just a reminder and that was just a promise which was made.
I would like to place on record the fact that the only things that should be done by this listening and working Government is to make sure that once a project of such an important nature is put in place, it is completed within a specified time. For instance, instead of a project being completed in four years, it should be completed in two years. That way, we are going to save many lives of the Zambian people.
Mr Chairperson, on the issue of constructing health posts in the rural parts of the country, many thanks go to Hon. Simbao for being an action-oriented hon. Minister of Health.
Interruptions
Mr Chisala: When he was hon. Minister of Health, he went round the country and when he came back, he gave a ministerial statement on the Floor of this House and told us that their Government had changed the policy regarding the construction of health posts. He told us that wherever there was a school, they were going to construct a health post and clinic. This was a commendable decision.
In view of the fact that the statement made by Hon. Simbao seemed to have worked somehow, I would like the PF Government to continue in that route. We have to continue because by so doing, many people in the rural parts of this country will be in a position to access health facilities.
On the other hand, I am proud that the hon. Minister has indicated that his ministry will continue on the route of recruiting health …
Mr Ndalamei: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, this is the first time I am raising a point of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor aware that we are implementing the MMD 2011 Budget and have not started implementing the PF Budget and that the construction of health facilities started with the MMD Budget?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member continue, please.
Mr Chisala: I thank you for the protection. I know that the hon. Member does not know what he is talking about.
Interruptions
Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, I stand here a proud Member of Parliament simply because the hon. Minister has reminded the nation that his ministry will continue recruiting health post personnel. This is because as the case is now, things are not fine, especially in the country side. We have a critical shortage of manpower. For instance, if you go to Chitunkubwe or Mubili Rural Health Centres in Chilubi, you will discover that we have some classified daily employees (CDEs) who give drugs to patients. This should not continue because we know that the people serving in the health sector are trained.
Currently, we have serious shortages of manpower in my constituency and, as such, I would urge the hon. Minister of Health and his team to extend his hand to rural communities and make sure that the ministry recruits as many people as possible to train as nurses and clinical officers.
Mr Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, my apology to the able speaker, but is he in order to mislead these very serious hon. Members of this important House by continuously referring to health as ‘elth’?
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member is in order to refer to health as ‘elth’ because that is as a result of mother-tongue interference.
The hon. Member may continue.
Laughter
Mr Chisala: I thank you, Sir, for your protection. I know that I come from the Northern part of Zambia while he is from the Eastern part of Zambia. There are also some words which he cannot pronounce properly because of mother-tongue interference.
Laughter
Mr Chisala: In conclusion, I would be very proud if our working Government can move quickly and put things in order because we want to serve the Zambian people.
With these remarks, Sir, I thank salute you.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): I thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me the opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor.
Mr Chairperson, I am very happy to have heard the hon. Minister of Health emphasise what will guide the implementation of the health programmes based on the three Cs (clean, caring and competent) services. The current hon. Minister of Health, my elder brother with whom, I think, we have been in this profession with for a combined period of more than fifty years. As a result, we have acquired a lot of combined experience. As such, I would like to wish him well. However, I have a few observations to make.
Sir, as far as I am aware, and I think I have said this before, the issue of concentrating on curative services will have limited success in the promotion of good health in our nation. It is very important that as we focus on curative services, which are necessary for our people when they are unwell, there is a need for us to also focus on preventive health services, such as health education, promotion of good nutrition, provision of clean water and sanitation and the promotion of community participation. These will have a positive impact on the health status of our people. Clearly, there are specific programmes about which even the World Health Organisation (WHO) is impressed with Zambia’s success. This success has been as a result of combined effort between the Government, our co-operating partners and non-governmental organisations (NGOs).
Sir, the ministry must look at child and maternal health, and the provision of ARVs for people suffering from HIV/AIDS.
Mr Chairperson, the other issue is that of the construction of health posts and hospitals, which, I hope, will continue. However, there is one major omission in our design in terms of district hospitals when it is contrasted with what obtains in the western world. We only realised this when we had finished constructing district hospitals.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
(Debate adjourned)
________
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]
(Progress reported)
__________
The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 13th December, 2011.