Wednesday, 10th July, 2024

Wednesday, 10^th July, 2024

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM ST COLUMBIA’S PRESBYTERIAN SCHOOL IN RHODES PARK, LUSAKA DISTRICT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from St Columbia’s Presbyterian School in Rhodes Park, Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM WISDOM WOOD SCHOOL IN CHALALA, LUSAKA DISTRICT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of pupils and teachers from Wisdom Wood School in Chalala, Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister of Agriculture, do you have an urgent matter without notice or it is a point of order?

Laughter

Hon. PF Members: No!

Mr Mtolo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you very much.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Hon. PF Members entered the Assembly Chamber.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members! We are eating into our time for our business today. May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I greatly appreciate you for allowing this point of order.

Madam Speaker, this House reflects the top decorum of what the country expects of hon. Members.

Madam Speaker, a case which is becoming very common of late is that, when your procession is entering the Assembly Chamber, there is gross misconduct by the hon. Members on your left. If you would allow me, I would name specifically the hon. Members who make noise.

Mr B. Mpundu interjected.

Mr Mtolo: Yes, because you are afraid Hon. B. Mpundu, I was going to name you, but I will not.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I think, we need to change this kind of conduct so that the House can have decorum. This is a House of serious etiquette. When the Hon. Madam Speaker’s procession enters the Assembly Chamber, the House is supposed to be quiet and not to make noise. Let us follow the order for this House.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

You are not supposed to debate while seated. That is why the hon. Minister of Agriculture is actually standing, to draw the attention of the House to the conduct of the hon. Members. May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to remind a few hon. Colleagues on your left, who pass comments and make noise as you are entering and leaving the Assembly Chamber, the etiquette that we have learnt here, in the House. There is supposed to be total quietness and respect for the Chairperson, who is in this case, the Hon. Madam Speaker of the National Assembly of Zambia and Parliament.

Madam Speaker, may I, through you, ask that this be checked so that we can have the necessary etiquette, which is befitting this House.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

There is a certain acceptable conduct for hon. Members and our Standing Orders are very clear on that. I can go to Standing Order No. 214, just for purposes of reminding ourselves of what we are expected. For the avoidances of doubt, I will read it.

“214 Parliamentary Decorum and Etiquette

Parliamentary decorum and etiquette refer to an essential standard of behaviour that a Member must observe in the House in order to maintain the dignity and decency of the House.

(2) A Member shall observe the following rules of parliamentary etiquette:

(b) a Member shall stop any conversation and rise in his or her place as soon as the Speaker's procession enters the Chamber;

(c) a Member who enters the Chamber when the Speaker's procession is entering, shall stand silently in the gangway until the Speaker has taken the Chair;”

Hon. Members, I think, from the time that we started this Session, there has been a tendency of hon. Members both on my left and sometimes on my right, who when the Speaker is entering or leaving the Assembly Chamber, have been running commentaries. That is in total breach of our own Standing Orders. We have set these rules for ourselves, let us observe them.

So, please, hon. Members, next time when the procession is entering or leaving the Assembly Chamber, any hon. Member who is going to make running commentaries will be in breach of the Standing Orders, and sanctions will visit them. So, let us make sure that we are compliant, it is not too much to ask.

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URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I will look out for those who have not had an opportunity to submit an urgent matter without notice.

Hon. Member for Nkana, you have been given several opportunities to submit urgent matters without notice. Since we only have three hon. Members indicating for urgent matters without notice today, I will give the hon. Member for Chama North an opportunity. Yesterday, he indicated, but he did not have the opportunity to submit his matter.

Hon. Member for Nkana, you were given an opportunity yesterday.

Mr B. Mpundu interjected.

Madam Speaker: Yes. So, today I will give somebody else an opportunity. It is only fair. Is it not?

MR MTAYACHALO, HON. MEMBER FOR CHAMA NORTH, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON THE WATER CRISIS IN CHAMA

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, before I raise this matter, I want to welcome back to the House my colleagues whose seats were declared vacant.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, my issue touches on two ministries. So, I want to direct this matter to the Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam Speaker, Chama Central Business District (CBD) has been hit by a water crisis for the past four to five days due to massive load-shedding. However, the situation has been exacerbated because the Eastern Water and Sanitation Company (EWSC) has been having serious operational challenges. The situation is so critical. You know that the Eastern Province recorded a cholera outbreak. So, we are afraid that pupils at Chama Boarding Secondary School and Chama Day Secondary School are at great risk of contracting this disease if something is not urgently done.

Madam Speaker, it must be realised that ZESCO Limited runs standby power generators in the district. The generators are there, and diesel is available, but our people are suffering because they cannot use the diesel generator to supply power to the hospital and the water utility. I wrote to the Managing Director of ZESCO Limited last week, and copied in the hon. Minister of Energy about this crisis. However, to date, no measures have been taken to address the situation.

Madam Speaker, I, therefore, seek your indulgence.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Chama North. I suggest you file in a question, and then your issue will be addressed.

Hon. Member for Nyimba, you were given an opportunity yesterday to raise an urgent matter without notice. So, we will give a chance to another hon. Member.

MR KATAKWE, HON. MEMBER FOR SOLWEZI EAST, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR MWIIMBU, SC., ON UNPAID ALLOWANCES TO THE OFFICERS ISSUING NATIONAL REGISTRATION CARDS

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me a chance to raise an urgent matter without notice. This matter is directed to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the effort the Government has been making in the issuance of National Registration Cards (NRCs), especially for us in the rural constituencies. The officers issuing NRCs in our various constituencies have gone for four months without being paid their allowances, yet they have families to take care of. People who move long distances to go and get NRCs are also affected.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to let this situation go on for four months without paying the allowances? With the crisis that people have now, hunger is knocking on their doors.

Madam Speaker, I know that if we file in an urgent question, it will take another month or two, and the question will not come to the Floor to be addressed. Hence, this opportunity to raise an urgent matter without notice.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Solwezi East. Please, you are advised to file in a question. You even realised that your question does not qualify as an urgent matter without notice, that is why you are trying to give justification for not filling in a question because you think it takes time to be processed. However, you are still advised to file in a question. It will be addressed.

Mr Shakafuswa interjected.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mandevu, I know you are my son, but I can send you out.

Laughter

MR SAMAKAYI, HON. MEMBER FOR MWINILUNGA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, ENG. MILUPI, ON THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE ROAD IN KAKOMA

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Speaker, my issue goes to the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

Madam Speaker, the people of Kakoma, in Mwinilunga, are faced with imminent floods once the rainy season starts. This has been happening for the past three years. We have been looking forward to the construction of the road from Lumwana to Kakoma/Kambimba under the public-private partnership (PPP). We thought that once the construction of that road commences, people would be using a detour that would be constructed. However, it is now becoming apparent that the PPP will not start the construction anytime soon. We fear that the people of Chief Kakoma, in Mwinilunga, will have no road to use to go to the Boma.

What measures has the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development put in place to ensure that the people of Kakoma do not face the same challenges they faced in the last two to three years?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwinilunga, I suggest you file in a question. The hon. Minister will be able to address it.

That concludes urgent matters without notice.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE SCHEME

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to update the hon. Members of this House on the implementation of the National Health Insurance Scheme known as NHIMA, which has, since April 2024, reverted to the Ministry of Health, in line with the Government’s agenda of strengthening health systems for enhanced health service delivery for all our citizens and established residents.

Madam Speaker, access to quality healthcare for all citizens and established residents is the vision of the New Dawn Government under the leadership of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema.

The Ministry of Health is spearheading this agenda by ensuring that our people are provided with quality health services as near as possible to where they live, go to school, and work without encountering any financial hardship.

The role of NHIMA in our national healthcare system is a critical one in pooling financial resources for the sustainable financing of quality healthcare services.

Madam Speaker, through this statement, I wish to update the House on the implementation status of the scheme in meeting its objectives as per the National Health Insurance Act No. 2 of 2018, and the reforms that are now being embarked on to ensure that all citizens and established residents are registered onto the scheme, and that the NHIMA scheme remains solvent in meeting its obligations.

Madam Speaker, NHIMA was created pursuant to the National Health Insurance Act No. 2 of 2018, whose mandate includes, among others, the following:

register and issue membership cards to members;
accredit or register health care providers;
develop a comprehensive benefit package to be accessed by the registered members;
facilitate access by poor and vulnerable people to insured healthcare services;
receive, process, and pay claims for services rendered by accredited health care providers; and
undertake programmes that further the sustainability of the scheme.

Madam Speaker, access to NHIMA services is by registration. It is, therefore, important that all citizens and established residents register to be members of the scheme in order for them to access NHIMA services. Citizens and established residents should not wait to fall ill before they can register as NHIMA members. Citizens and established residents between eighteen and sixty-four years, should be registered as contributing members on the scheme, both from the formal and informal sectors. However, children below eighteen years should also be registered, except, as beneficiaries under a principal contributing member. To take note also, is that, those aged sixty-five years and above are exempted from making contributions, but they are expected to register. They must register, except that they will be registering without paying any contributions. A citizen and an established resident who is mentally and physically disabled and is unable to work, a person classified as poor and vulnerable by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services is also exempted from making contributions to the scheme.

Madam Speaker, NHIMA contributions are pegged at 2 per cent of basic income for those formally employed, and this is split equally between the employer and the employee, which means that 1 per cent is for the employer and 1 per cent for the employee. Therefore, 2 per cent is paid. For those in the informal sector, however, the contribution is at an average of K50 per household, per month to cover up to seven members of that family or household. That is, one plus six; one is the principal contributor or registered member, plus six members of the family as beneficiaries. Access to services for all members and their registered beneficiaries is uniform and is not limited to how much a member has contributed.

Madam Speaker, when the New Dawn Government came into power, the membership of NHIMA stood at 1.6 million members and beneficiaries. As of June 2024, NHIMA members and beneficiaries now stand at over 4.6 million. This is a clear reflection of the New Dawn Administration's aspiration of leaving no one behind.

Madam Speaker, the current NHIMA contributions –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

There is a lot of talking, we need to listen to the statement. The hon. Minister is here to deliver a statement, after which hon. Members will be able to ask questions. If we are talking, how will we be able to follow the statement? Can we please, reduce on the talking.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the current NHIMA contributions are the lowest of any health insurance scheme, averaging only K50 per family of seven members per month as alluded to. With this minimal contribution, NHIMA members can access all the services they need, under the NHIMA benefits package comprising of the following:

out-patient services;
in-patient medical care, including consultations, examinations, diagnostic services (radiology and laboratory) and nursing care;

surgery: general surgery, anesthetics, orthopedics, pediatric surgery, and ear, nose and throat (ENT);
maternity and neonatal care: Antenatal care, delivery (normal or assisted), cesarean section and postnatal care;
eye care services (selected services);
oral health services (dental);
pharmaceutical drugs and medical supplies such as blood products; and
physiotherapy services.

All these services are offered to our registered members without having the need to pay at the point of access. This is the value that NHIMA brings to its members, and it is the responsibility of all of us, therefore, to register to access these benefits.

Madam Speaker, the current membership of over 4.6 million mentioned, represents only 23 per cent of the Zambian population. Our goal as the Government, through the Ministry of Health and NHIMA, is to ensure that all citizens and established residents in this country are registered and covered. Therefore, it is only through registration and making NHIMA contributions that a member and registered beneficiaries can access these free services.

In this regard, the Government, through my ministry and working with NHIMA, has embarked on a nation-wide NHIMA registration exercise, that was launched on Friday, 5^th July, 2024, in Ndola District, by the hon. Minister of Health. This mass campaign is aimed at increasing membership to the scheme in our drive towards universal health coverage. Registration of members is being done at all public hospitals, NHIMA offices country-wide and online, through the NHIMA website. To ease the process, NHIMA has put in place a toll-free line; 8000, where members and the public can call for assistance regarding registration to NHIMA.

Madam Speaker, to encourage the registration of members of the public, NHIMA has for the month of July 2024, introduced a special waiver, where those who register and make their monthly contributions will not have to wait for the mandatory four months, which is required currently, before accessing services. Effective, 5^th July to 4^th August 2024, all NHIMA members who will be registered and make their contributions will be able to access all the services almost immediately. For purposes of sustainability of the scheme, it is, however, important that members remain current with their NHIMA contributions of K50 for the seven members.

Madam Speaker, to further enhance the registration, the Government is aware that even within those who are supposed to be registered, there will always be people we call vulnerable. These are people who are differently abled or suffering from a chronic disease and they may not be able to work to earn any money. These are the ones who should ordinarily be captured by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. Currently, these vulnerable people are under the social cash transfer scheme.

Madam Speaker, we have 1.3 million people who are currently categorised as poor and vulnerable by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. Due to the drought, which His Excellency the President declared as a national disaster and an emergency, we now have an addition of 1 million people who have been identified in selected districts that have suffered drought. So, we are not talking about the 1.3 million people anymore, the number has now increased to 2.3 million citizens. Therefore, as the Government, we have a mammoth task to ensure that even the 1.3 million and 1 million people should be able to access the NHIMA services without a problem.

Madam Speaker, I am happy to report to you that the Government, through NHIMA, is currently working with co-operating partners, in particular, the Global Fund and the International Labour Organisation (ILO). With these, NHIMA has been provided with a booster for the vulnerable groups. It is going to register at least 100,000 members and beneficiaries against the 1.3 million and 1 million people being categorised as poor and vulnerable. Recently, about 10,000 vulnerable and very vulnerable people in our communities were able to register as beneficiaries of the National Health Insurance Scheme on the Copperbelt. This number will have to reach 100,000 people.

Madam Speaker, may I use this opportunity to make an appeal to the Zambian citizens that if they have parents, family members, neighbours, and friends who cannot manage to register under the NHIMA scheme, let us help each other by ensuring that we help them to register under the scheme. Let us support each other especially now, during this drought period. Some people were able to pay for the scheme previously, but now they are unable to because all of their crops went to waste.

Madam Speaker, allow me to also use this opportunity to appeal not only to the usual co-operating partners, but also to the local co-operating partners to come on board and support NHIMA in this exercise of onboarding the remaining poor and vulnerable in our communities.

Madam Speaker, access to NHIMA services can only be through NHIMA accredited health facilities, such as hospitals, clinics, and accredited pharmacies. It is the Government's desire that every NHIMA member must have access to a NHIMA accredited health facility located as close as possible to their places of residence, work, and school. This is to facilitate convenient healthcare access.

Madam Speaker, currently, there are 406 NHIMA accredited facilities spread across the country. Unfortunately, most of these are along the line of rail. To ensure that every Zambian has access to a NHIMA facility near them, the Government through the Ministry of Health has directed NHIMA as follows:

every district of the country must have a NHIMA accredited health facility and NHIMA registration presence, that is in all the 116 districts;

NHIMA accreditation must not be restricted to only district-level hospitals and those higher, but zonal health centers which would include what was previously termed as mini-hospitals found in sub-districts should all be accredited. By so doing, NHIMA services will be taken closer to the people. This strategic step will contribute significantly to expanding healthcare coverage to currently underserved and un-served communities. As a result of this, over thirty more zonal centers, including mini-hospitals are undergoing onboarding and members can now access services from these facilities. Our target was that by the end of June 2024, all the 116 districts should have at least one accredited facility. Whether public or private hospital, we just have to have one registered;

NHIMA prioritises the accreditation of all Government hospitals throughout the country as these serve most of our population;

NHIMA enhances its registration exercise to cover all citizens and established residents, particularly those in the informal sector, as well as the poor and the vulnerable; and

NHIMA works with local authorities in the mass nationwide registration process for those in the informal sector.

Madam Speaker, being a contributory scheme, NHIMA’s financial sustainability is of key importance for it to achieve its health financing objectives. Since NHIMA’s return to the Ministry of Health, several policy reforms have been devised and are under implementation to keep its financial health in check. Among the key reforms are the following:

launching a mass registration exercise to cover the informal sector and extend the NHIMA contributions or collections coverage wider;

suspension of the accreditation of new private health care providers. This is aimed at ensuring that priority is given to financing public facilities that service the bigger part of the population;

revocation of accreditation for health facilities that may have been involved in health insurance fraud. This is to safeguard public funds and ensure value for money;

reviewing the NHIMA benefits package; and

reviewing the financing modalities to enhance NHIMA’s collections capacity.

Madam Speaker, these reforms are all aimed to ensure that NHIMA stays afloat and achieves its objectives of being a sustainable health care financing mechanism for the Government. Allow me to emphasise that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government places great importance on health as a human right that everyone is entitled to. Therefore, investing in health is an important undertaking to ensure that the health rights of citizens are enjoyed. In this regard, the Government through the Ministry of Health working with NHIMA management and the board will ensure that all citizens and established residents are part of NHIMA, irrespective of their social and economic status.

Madam Speaker, I am confident that the NHIMA membership mass registration drive that has begun will substantially drive progress towards the achievement of universal health coverage.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, let me re-emphasise the following key points:

NHIMA is for every citizen and established resident, including the formal and informal sector. Therefore, everyone must be registered as per the law;

the services that a member can access are not limited to their contributions, but they are health needs because it is an insurance scheme;

the Government has provided for mechanisms to cover for the vulnerable groups;

one does not have to wait to be sick to register for NHIMA, everyone must register before they fall sick; and

we urge all stakeholders to come on board and support the Government's efforts toward this drive

Madam Speaker, my clarion call to hon. Members of this august House is to engage their communities, including the local authorities, and counselors, and drive the registration of all their constituents as members of NHIMA.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister of Health.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I think, there is a huge gap when it comes to the implementation of the National Health Insurance Scheme (NHIS), especially when it comes to mental and maternal health care. The statistics that the hon. Minister has given us show that the number of facilities that are accredited to the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) has increased, without taking into consideration how this increase would be managed. When the number of facilities that are accredited to NHIMA increases, usually abuse comes in. I have seen that most of the facilities that are accredited to NHIMA have been abusing the scheme. In her statement, the hon. Minister mentioned the fraud that has been happening in institutions that are accredited to NHIMA.

Madam Speaker, I want to know what measures the hon. Minister has put in place to ensure that fraud and abuse of funds from NHIMA does not advance especially in the coming years.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, we know that some facilities in the private sector have abused the funds from NHIMA. Of course, not on their own, but aided by some public workers even under some of our health facilities. So, some of the policy and management issues that were agreed upon between the Ministry of Health and NHIMA are that firstly, we had to temporarily suspend registration of more new private facilities to be accredited to NHIMA because we started seeing the mushrooming of accredited facilities, and all of them were just along the line of rail. When one goes to the Western Province, one will only find Mongu General Hospital accredited to NHIMA, and when they go to the next district, they will not find a single facility. So, people have to get on buses to go to Mongu to access health care, yet they are civil servants whose money is being deducted. This is not attainable. We had to stop the bleeding, and the first thing we did was to stop the accreditation of the private sector, but continued with the public sector so that there is accessibility.

Madam Speaker, secondly, we are now going backward. We are looking at those public and private sectors that may have been involved in fraud. We will catch up with them. Part of the reason this fraud was happening, obviously, is that NHIMA may have lacked the capacity to understand how the health facilities, both the private and public, manage their costings. They had to depend on outside support. However, now that NHIMA is back under the Ministry of Health, it is much easier to get a standard understanding and ensure that both the public and the private have a fair deal and also that the Government and the Zambian public are not cheated. So, we will be going backward and we will be deregistering accredited facilities that will be found to have more resources than they should have.

Madam Speaker, we are aware of what happens in some of the health institutions. For example, when one goes to a private hospital and says that he/she has influenza (flu), he/she is not given medication for that illness, instead, they are told to go and have a Computed Tomography (CT) scan done. One does not need a CT scan for flu, but they will force the patient to have it done so that they can charge NHIMA more. Sometimes, the patients do not even know the costings that are being written because all is done between a particular health facility and NHIMA. So, it was difficult for NHIMA to validate the costings. That is why in the last few years, many private clinics have mushroomed, and we have seen expansions of these health facilities, because there has been a lot of money coming from NHIMA.

Madam Speaker, unfortunately, we have seen the public health sector suffer. This is because private firms could get money from NHIMA for certain services to the extent that when the public health facilities want to claim, NHIMA would not pay. So, there are all these issues that we have had to look at, but I am grateful to the board and my ministry that we are, at least, on top of the game. However, we still need to do more work. So, these are just some of the steps that we are bringing to this House on membership drive.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, thank you once again for giving me the opportunity to ask a question to the hon. Minister of Health.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Health would recall that on 14^th June, 2023, I am on record as having moved a Motion before this august House urging the Government to actualise the provision of health services to the poor and the vulnerable. I think, the debate was unanimous that we need to move in that direction, and I am happy to be part of those who advocated for more people to be added to the scheme.

Madam Speaker, in the statement, the hon. Minister of Health mentioned that the Global Fund and two other partners are helping the ministry get more poor people onto the scheme. However, that may not be sustainable because at some point, these funders will decide to pull out. My question, therefore, to the hon. Minister is: Does the Government intend to increase the 2 per cent that people are contributing currently or it will maintain it but allocate more money in the National Budget to be able to capture more vulnerable people?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very important question. First of all, the National Health Insurance Act is very clear about the issue of vulnerable people. It is the objective and mandate of the Government to ensure that even in this process, the poor people must always be catered for. So, it is not a new issue that could have come through here, in the House. If it was not done, then it was an oversight. However, the fact still remains that it is the policy of this Government and it is in the National Health Insurance Act that health is a right. So, it is the duty of the Government to support those who cannot afford health services, but obviously, that should be within the budget because it is the Zambian people who give money to the Government to offer services.

Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Government, and the President in particular, has made it very clear that the plight of the poor people must be addressed. This is why the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services has already graded 1.3 million citizens as vulnerable. This year again, because of the drought, the President said that nobody should go without being treated. So, we have added another 1 million, giving a total of 2.3 million citizens to be treated as vulnerable. Using the budget for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, the Government of the day has been supporting the very vulnerable. When these go to the hospital and they are not able to buy medicines or access any other service, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services has been assisting. However, the challenge is that the resources allocated may not have been sufficient because of budget constraints.

Madam Speaker, the other point is that the Ministry of Health has to work with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services to ensure that the vulnerable are being catered for. So, to answer the second part of the hon. Member’s question concerning the 2 per cent contributions, allow me to say that for those in the formal sector, the contribution is 2 per cent of their basic salary.

Madam Speaker, I indicated in the statement that we have taken certain policy decisions. One of the policy decisions is that we are assessing the benefits package, because the Zambian benefits package is super good. It is only in Zambia, in this part of the continent, where one gets almost all the health care services from a K50 monthly contribution. For instance, when people go to a health facility to have their eyes checked and they are given eye lenses, they would choose Gucci frames which cost K5,000 or K10,000, yet we have frames that cost K300. So, people were abusing the scheme.

Madam Speaker, I also talked about the issue of sustainability that this Government is looking at and that we are going to be assessing the services. Right now, the Ministry of Health is in consultations with NHIMA, health facilities, the private sector, and other individuals assessing the health services to see how best we can improve on the health service delivery. This also includes the unions and one of the discussions we had with the unions was on the 2 per cent contribution, which the hon. Member asked about. So, NHIMA requested that instead of getting 2 per cent of the basic salary, it gets 2 per cent of the gross salary, just like the others are doing in the region, those that have a similar scheme.

Madam Speaker, that discussion regarding the contribution towards the scheme has already taken place, and generally, we are in agreement that if NHIMA has to be sustainable, that is one area that has to be looked at. Initially, the contribution towards the scheme should have been 5 per cent, but for obvious reasons, it was brought to 2 per cent. So, instead of 2 per cent of the net pay, we are now looking at 2 per cent contribution of the gross pay. However, all these will have to go through further consultation with the Cabinet and then the House will be able to participate in one way or the other. So, it is always good to hear that hon. Members of Parliament are already on board over this matter, they understand what is happening on the ground and are able to come up with such suggestions.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I have noticed that we have spent more than ten minutes on two questions, and we have several other indications. So, if the questions and answers can be precise, we can allow as many people as possible.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister is providing answers, I would like to bring to her attention the fact that the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) management issued a notice indicating some of the services that members will no longer access under the scheme, which will be provided for by themselves. Based on that notice, is the ministry considering revisiting issues like procuring spectacles and other essential components that NHIMA removed so that it can lessen the burden that has now been imposed on the members of the scheme?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, indeed, there was an intention by NHIMA to remove certain services from the scheme. However, the Government, through the Ministry of Health, advised NHIMA to withdraw that notice because there was a need for further consultation so that all of us who are going to be members of the scheme must appreciate what it is doing. So, the process of negotiations and consultations is currently ongoing. In fact, next week, we will be completing that matter and I will come back here, to the House to issue a ministerial statement on the same matter.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Charles Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, Hon. Tayengwa, Member of Parliament for Kabwata Constituency raised a concern regarding the abuse of the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) funds. In her response, the hon. Minister agreed that this abuse was there. However, has she made an assessment to establish how many health facilities engaged in this fraud and what measures does she intend to take against those private health institutions that abused NHIMA funds?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I did agree that the abuse of NHIMA funds was there. You will agree with me that there are usually such abuses when it comes to issues of insurance worldwide, especially if the system is still very young like the way NHIMA was. People take advantage. What we are trying to do now is to seal those loopholes. Regarding those who may have been involved in fraud, such as overcharging and collecting money from beneficiaries, once proven, we will deregister them and they will not be accredited to NHIMA.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, lately, there have been stories in the press of the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) having difficulties in meeting the claims of the beneficiaries. One of the requirements for this institution being an insurance scheme is for it to operate under what is called capital adequacy requirements (CAR). I want to know the mechanism that the Government has put in place to ensure that NHIMA operates within the bounds of capital adequacy requirements.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I am sorry, I did not follow the question. If it can be repeated, I would appreciate it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga Madam Speaker, I was suggesting to the hon. Minister that lately, there have been stories of NHIMA failing to meet its claims because of liquidity problems. Since NHIMA is an insurance scheme, one of the requirements is that it must operate within what is called capital adequacy requirements. For example, it must always have resources to meet the needs of the claimers. So, I want to know what mechanism the Government has put in place to ensure that NHIMA operates within the bounds of capital adequacy requirement.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, indeed, NHIMA has had issues to do with immediately paying the institutions that were providing the service. Of course, one of the issues that we discovered through NHIMA was that some of the bills were over and above. What NHIMA is doing is ensuring that, firstly, those bills are verified by getting back to the hospital where health services are offered. Once it finds that everything is okay, NHIMA then pays. Even with the challenges that NHIMA has faced, it is not at a point where it is unable to pay completely. Remember, NHIMA is a Government institution, which means that it is backed by the Government, and therefore, it is backed by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Jamba left the Assembly Chamber whilst greeting hon. Members.

Mrs Masebo: So, at no point can we say as Government that those who may have genuinely provided a service will not be paid. They are being paid except that NHIMA is taking time to pay. Initially, NHIMA would just pay. We have come to find out that even some of the –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Is the hon. Member for Mwembezhi lost? What is happening? Please, can you leave the Assembly Chamber quietly instead of greeting every hon. Member as though you are looking for someone, and touching people’s heads like you are John the Baptist.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Minister continue.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, thank you. What I was saying is that NHIMA is backed by the Government. Institutions that have credible receipts are definitely being paid and everyone will eventually be paid. So, nobody should panic over that situation. The Government is alive to the principles that govern insurances.

Madam Speaker, I have more responses through my Permanent Secretaries (PSs). It takes sixty days to review the benefits package. Basically, what they are saying is that accredited facilities should not worry they will be paid and they are being paid. We have continued giving all the services that have been articulated and any changes that will happen will be after full consultation with major contributors like the unions, the employers, the employees, and the people of Zambia through this House, the Cabinet and their elected representatives so that at the end of the day, we are all speaking the same language. It is important that we get to that level where people are able to appreciate why it is necessary for a particular change to take place. I am happy that both the left and the right insofar as the issue of NHIMA is concerned, have been unanimous.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Allen Banda (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the ministry wants to capture more Zambians to register under the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) scheme and at the same time offer quality healthcare. Unfortunately, in Kitwe, most people are shunning central hospitals. They would rather go to private hospitals because they believe that at the low-cost section, they are not being treated timely, they are made to wait. So, does the hon. Minister have any intentions of doing away with low-cost sections from the Government institutions and just have high-costs section, because everybody is now contributing towards the NHIMA scheme. So, why should there be segregation?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Members for asking interesting and important questions. I want to agree with him when he says that as a public facility, when we offer services to our members, they have to be at an equal platform. You cannot have one section of the hospital written NHIMA Ward and the other one written something else. This is part of the misinterpretation of an Act that is well-meant by those who implement it at the bottom. We have directed our health facilities to not have sections separated as NHIMA or non-NHIMA Wards. The fact that somebody is poor and has failed to pay towards the NHIMA scheme should not be the reason that that person cannot be treated from a particular section of the health facility.

Madam Speaker, we have situations in which some pregnant women who are under the scheme choose the facility to deliver from. They do not want to deliver from the level I hospital, but prefer going to Care for Business (CfB) Clinic, Coptic Hospital or Medland Hospital if it is accredited to NHIMA. Women now do not want to go and give birth at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), they want to go to Forest Park Hospital. This is the same issue I talked about. You are allowed to go and get your eyes tested and get spectacles, but you choose to go to some sexy, funky optic shop along Cairo Road where you look for a certain brand of spectacles. You want the Christian Dior spectacles like the ones the Hon. Madam Speaker has.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: The Hon. Madam Speaker, got the Christian Dior spectacles when she travelled. Those Christian Dior spectacles cost US$1,000.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, members do that at the expense of the Government and NHIMA must pay for their Christian Dior glasses, really? When they want to go and replace a tooth, ati, I want a gold tooth.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, at whose cost? So, these are some of the mistakes we have in the implementation of the NHIMA services. We recognise them and as the Government, we are doing everything possible. We just ask for your time, but your support is also very important.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to ask a question on behalf of the people of Chifubu. We would like to thank the hon. Minister for the massive registration of members on the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) programme that is currently going on across the country. This has brought a lot of excitement amongst members. The members have many expectations now that they are on the NHIMA scheme. People want to know to what extent they are covered by the NHIMA scheme. For example, someone would want to take their sick child abroad for specialised medical treatment, they would want to know if the scheme can cover such treatment abroad. If not, to what extent are the members covered? What other medical services may not be sought under the NHIMA scheme?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, NHIMA membership is for Zambians. The services to be given are Zambian. The NHIMA scheme does not cover treatment abroad. That is a different story altogether. The Government of the Republic of Zambia has had this specialised treatment abroad budgeted for. This House did budget for that. Hon. Members of the House and the citizenry know that many times in the last decades, individuals have been sent abroad for specialised treatment. Under the New Dawn Government, we have divided this issue called specialised treatment abroad and created what we call local specialised treatment. So, we just share the same money. We are not interested in seeing this money being spent on those who go abroad only.

Madam Speaker, we realised that certain specialised treatment can be done locally by both the private sector and the public sector. So, treatments that can be done locally, such as a knee or hip replacement, are done in Zambia. What do we do? Using that local specialised treatment account, we support the poor to have certain specialised treatments done locally by the public sector or the private sector. The challenge is that the amount is small, and the disease burden on the country has increased. That is why, as a ministry, we are pushing for prevention so that the budget for the Ministry of Health should not be going up because either we are over-eating or not doing exercises and so, we contract many diseases.

Madam Speaker, all I can say is that NHIMA services do not mean that now members have a passport to go abroad. One does not have to be a member of NHIMA to go abroad for specialised treatment, we are sending anybody as long as we realise that life can be saved abroad and we are not able to do it locally within the budget. So, whether you are registered under the NHIMA scheme or not, it is the job of the Government to support its people within its capacity.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that there are 406 National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) accredited facilities countrywide. In the rural areas, like in my constituency, we have more than ten rural health centres, but they are not accredited to NHIMA. Registered NHIMA members have to travel more than 80 km to Petauke District Hospital to access health services, yet just a short distance away, there is rural health centres where they can easily access medical services. Would the hon. Minister consider making all health facilities that are under the ministry, allow NHIMA registered members to access health services from the nearest facility?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his question for it helps me to make a few clarifications.

Madam Speaker, I take it that the hon. Member does not have what they call zonal centres in his constituency, but only the rural health centres. If the health centres in his constituency are not zonal centres, then they are not going to be accredited. However, the fact still remains that the community of that constituency can go to those health posts and rural health centres and access the health e services that are being offered there. So, there is no restriction because one has not been accredited. Every health facility in the country will offer what it has been mandated to offer in terms of the level of service. So, the health post will continue to offer health services to everybody who approaches them as long as they are citizens of this country. We are encouraging people to register because it is mandatory to do so, so that when they now have to go to a higher facility, they will do so without any problem. For example, if one lives in Kaumbwe, Petauke, and then one gets sick while in Ndola, one can go to any hospital within Ndola and be attended to without a problem by just using the NHIMA membership card. If a member leaves the health facility because it is limited in terms of the services being offered, he/she can still go to a higher level without any problem.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the statement delivered this afternoon.

Madam Speaker, when the United Party for National Development (UPND) formed Government, it moved the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) from the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to the Ministry of Health. Was this part of collateral damage as there was no expertise to audit private hospitals? Did NHIMA compromise health services to the people? In the hon. Minister’s view, does she think that NHIMA has been delivering services to the expectations of our people using funds collected from our citizens?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, firstly, all those people who are registered as NHIMA members will be the best people to vouch for NHIMA, that it has done a fantastic job. I think, the challenge was that some health facilities, which were accredited to NHIMA, abused the service. Secondly, NHIMA was registered in 2018, and by September 2021, only 1.4 million citizens were registered as members and beneficiaries, which is a very small number. From 2022 to date, the number has only increased to 4.6 million. The number is still small because it is only 23 per cent of the population.

Madam Speaker, for NHIMA to be effective and to live up to its expectations, we must cover everybody, leaving no one behind, then we can say that we have gotten somewhere. So, this is why we continue to make NHIMA better. Without really getting into those issues, all I can say is, let us work together, both the left and the right and the people out there to agree that the concept of NHIMA has its positives. It will have challenges, but those challenges can only be overcome if both the left and the right, and the people out there work together and build it. Where it has weaknesses, we should continue to refine it. Some countries have done very well and others badly. We can learn best practices from those that have succeeded.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: We have run out of time, but since we did not hear from any female hon. Members, I will allow the hon. Member for Chienge to ask a question.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the statement.

Madam Speaker, in one of her responses, the hon. Minister said that the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) has not really reached the level where it can effectively perform, and I agree with her. However, I want to find out why the ministry cannot segment the NHIMA contributions into different classes, such as middle, high and lower so that people are able to contribute to a class according to their level. If there are no such segmentations, people like hon. Members of Parliament will be required to pay K50 when they can afford to pay K300. Why will the ministry not segment the contributions so that those who are in the high class can cushion the masses who are in the medium and low classes?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for the important question as it helps to make some clarifications. In fact, that was the idea, that the rich should subsidise the poor. The Government ensures that it also looks after the very vulnerable by coming through for them and that was the intention and it continues to be the intention. In addition, those who are in formal employment, like the hon. Member, pay 2 per cent of their net pay. This means that if the hon. Member is getting K100,000 and the other one is getting K50,000, another one getting K50,000 and K2,000, they will each pay 2 percent of their net pay. So, that helps to achieve exactly what the hon. Member has said.

However, for the informal groups; the taxi drivers, marketeers, the tailors, those doing some artwork and those making money using social media pay K50 per month. I have just learnt that people make money out of propaganda on social media. That is why we have a lot of propaganda because somebody pays them for that. So, as long as one has an income of one kind or another, such as a farmer, the amount has been made standard; K50 on average. So, K50 is for seven members of the household or the family, including the principle payer.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member’s question is valid when it comes to those who are sixty-five years old and above. The law now states that for those who are sixty-five years old and above, registration is free. They do not pay anything, yet we know that many of our citizens continue to receive huge sums of money even in their retirement, but they cannot even pay K50, it is free. So, those are some of the issues we will be looking at in the future when the system has stabilised. There are many areas where we can look at, but what is good is that the vulnerable, like the differently-abled persons are being captured by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Service working with the Ministry of Health and of course, other co-operating partners.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much hon. Minister. We need to make progress because we have run out of time. So, we can go to the next order on the Order Paper.

_______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE PLANNING AND BUDGETING COMMITTEE ON THE CONSIDERATION OF THE 2024 ANNUAL BORROWING PLAN AMENDMENT

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Planning and Budgeting Committee on the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Amendment for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 5^th July, 2024.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Mabumba (Mwense): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference as provided for in Order No. 206(7) of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2024, your Committee was tasked to scrutinise the 2024 Annual Borrowing Planning Amendment by the House.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that your Committee was informed that the amendment of the 2024 Annual Borrowing Planning was necessitated by two important elements, namely the refinancing of fuel arrears and the augmented financing support under the International Monetary Fund (IMF) extended credit facility due to the impact of the drought on the economy. In this regard, the Government plans to raise additional debt financing of K6 billion in domestic financing and US$490.78 million in external financing. Of the additional external financing, the Government plans to disburse US$195.5 million in 2024.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, allow me to inform this House that all stakeholders who appeared before your Committee during its deliberations were in support of the revision of the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan as they recognised the need for the Government to intervene in the drought crisis as well as to refinance the costly fuel arrears. However, some stakeholders expressed concern regarding Zambia’s ability to sustain debt, considering that the 2023 debt sustainability analysis indicated that Zambia remained in debt distress, with all sustainability indicators being unmet.

Madam Speaker, your Committee noted with concern that the present value of external debt service to revenue and export ratios significantly breaches the recommended thresholds. It highlights the need to critically assess whether projected economic growth and revenue generation would suffice to service the increased debt without compromising essential public services.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that the stock of external debt has continued to rise, from US$13 billion at the end of 2021 to US$14.7 billion at the end of the first quarter of 2024. While your Committee recognises that the external debt being contracted now is concessional and aimed at restoring macroeconomic and social stability in light of the drought Zambia is experiencing, it is concerned that the continued increase in debt stock of external debt may negate the gains that have been made by the Government in restoring debt sustainability. In this regard, your Committee strongly recommends that the Government takes measures to enhance fiscal discipline, particularly regarding external debt contraction.

Madam Speaker, notwithstanding the above, your Committee noted the Government’s efforts in ensuring that public debt is sustainable through the implementation of several key reforms such as the nearly concluded external debt restructuring, oversight of borrowing by state-owned enterprises and the operationalisation of the debt management office. In this regard, your Committee implores the House to support the revision of the annual borrowing plan to enable the Government to facilitate the payment of fuel arrears and mitigate the negative impact of the drought on the economy.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I need to amplify the fact that you have a very hard-working Committee. I wish to pay tribute on behalf of your Committee, to all the stakeholders who tendered both oral and written submissions before it. I also wish to thank you and the Clerk of the National Assembly of Zambia for the guidance and support services accorded to your Committee throughout its deliberations.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Mabumba: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, in seconding the Motion, I conquer with the chairperson’s remarks on the need to approve the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Amendment.

Madam Speaker, let me re-echo the fact that the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Amendment as submitted by my able chairperson was necessitated by the need to refinance fuel arrears and augment financing support under the International Monetary Fund (IMF) extended credit facility due to the impact of the drought on the economy.

Madam Speaker, let me, from the outset, inform this august House that stakeholders who appeared before your Committee were in support of the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Amendment. However, they submitted that increasing reliance on domestic and external borrowing does, among other things escalate the debt servicing cost, crowds out essential Government expenditure and increases vulnerability to exchange rate fluctuations.

Madam Speaker, further, stakeholders submitted that payment of fuel arrears in United States Dollars also posed a negative impact on the exchange rate. That notwithstanding, as a way to mitigate this risk, as well as to minimise crowding out the private sector, local banks were required to source funds to be lent to the Government externally.

Madam Speaker, your Committee was further informed that as at the end of March 2024, only K500 million of the projected net domestic financing of K16.3 billion was raised to finance the National Budget. The lower than expected outturn was largely attributed to the underperformance of the Government securities auctions arising from tight liquidity conditions in the economy.

Madam Speaker, as was earlier stated by the mover, high levels of public debt beyond sustainable thresholds could negatively impact economic growth, signifying the need for the Government to minimise debt accumulation to avoid slowing down economic growth.

Madam Speaker, despite the above, as I earlier indicated, approving the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan Amendment is critical to the building of a resilient economy during this drought period. I beg to second.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have noticed there is a lot of interest. So, to ensure that you all debate, I urge you to not use the whole eight minutes of the time allocated and also to avoid repeating yourselves. If one hon. Member has already brought out an issue, another hon. Member can bring out different issue so that we allow as many hon. Members to debate. Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, you may proceed.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. May I thank the chairperson of your Committee for this report. I also thank the vice-chairperson for seconding the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I will quickly take hon. Members of this House to page 1 of the report under item 3.1. There is a confirmation from your Committee that the Government intends to increase its borrowing from domestic financing from K16.3 billion to K22.3 billion, a confirmation that borrowing will take place.

Madam Speaker, on page 2, there is a table that is summarised, which shows that the Government will borrow an additional K6 billion, additional in the context that we have already approved an amount, but now the hon. Minister needs an extra K6 billion from domestic borrowing. From the vice-chairperson’s comment, it is obvious that we now have to get this money either from the Government securities, which means that we need to ask people to either buy Government bonds or treasury bills. We obviously, need a conversation on this matter. However, that confirms that we are borrowing K6 billion domestically.

Madam Speaker, item 3.2 talks about external borrowing. Again, I will take the liberty to refer to these figures because this is not our conversation. It is important that our people are made aware of what figures we need to approve today, and for what particular purpose.

Madam Speaker, item 3.2, in your Committee’s report shows that we are looking for US$490 million, external money, meaning that the Zambian Government intends to borrow US$490. This is not a grant, but borrowed money that we need to approve today. Again, this confirms that the Government is looking to borrow funds.

Madam Speaker, something that is important for our public out there is on item 3.3 of the report. The last sentence reads:

“Consequently, the projected net increase in the total Central Government debt stock (domestic and external) was projected to be US$1.66 billion.”

Madam Speaker, this means that our current debt stock will go up. This is something that the members of the public will be interested to know so that as we discuss, we know if we need to borrow or not. I think that by now, everyone is appreciating that sometimes the Government has to borrow. I think, it is important that we are all honest enough to discuss for what purposes will this money be borrowed. So, item 3.3 is confirmation that we have to borrow.

Madam Speaker, let me now go to my submissions based on the background that I have given.

Madam Speaker, these are my submissions to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Point number 1, I think that as we discuss the need to borrow, which obviously the technical committee and the report that has been prepared have already highlighted, and it is something that has been exercising my mind for a long time, my comment would be restricted to how we can ensure that the resource that we have in the mining sector gives us more revenue. I hope that the next time we have an annual borrowing plan being brought to this august House, we will also be told what our strategy in the mining sector to encourage more revenue from the mining sector is. Yes, today, we need this money and the Government needs our support, as hon. Members of Parliament, to approve this report that it has brought before us today. However, the report has not highlighted which areas of opportunity will give us the local revenue that we can generate on our own, as a country, and for me, it is the mining sector.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is asking us to approve the US$1.6 billion today. I personally feel that the hon. Minister would have done justice to this issue had he given us other options of financing, even as he is asking us to approve, because obviously, we need the money and he needs our support. So, we have to give the Government the support to get these funds. However, where are the other alternative sources? What can we do in the mining sector to generate more revenue? For me, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is in a very awkward position because the Government needs the money and he has indicated that this money is urgently needed and it is confirming that even the new Government is borrowing. However, I would like the Government to tell us what other avenues Zambia can explore to raise US$1.6 billion. I do not think US$1.6 billion is money that we can fail to generate locally.

Madam Speaker, my challenge to the Government is that the next time it brings an annual borrowing plan, which will justify what it needs and where it will borrow the money from, can it go a step further and tell us how we can maximise on the income from the mining sector. I hope that this can be captured even in the next speech to Parliament by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning as he seeks approval of the 2025 National Budget.

Madam Speaker, I am ready to support the activities that will ensure that our economy is moving in the right trajectory. However, your Committee has not told us what we can do with the mining sector. I feel that in the mining sector is where we need to maximise our income. If we do it right in the mining sector, we will not be borrowing US$1.6 billion.

Madam Speaker, the people of Kamfinsa proudly submit that can we do more in the mining sector. Can we sort out the challenges that our sector is facing so that we are able to maximise the local revenue without having to borrow US$1.6 billion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity given to the people of Luena to support the report ably moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Moomba and seconded by the hon. Member for Mwense.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, the people of Luena wish to state that they support the report. However, I do have a few observations to make. I will pick it up from the debate by my hon. Colleagues, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, who has challenged the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that every time we are talking about borrowing, indeed, we should talk about the resource, especially in the mining sector. People say that there is a lot of money there and we should not be borrowing because we are sitting on billions and billions of dollars in the mining sector.

Madam Speaker, it is not lost on the people of Luena that when the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government got into power, it found a debt stock of US$13 billion. That is with the minerals still available in this country. These minerals were not discovered last week.

Madam Speaker, it is also not lost on the people of Luena that while we are approving the Supplementary Budget amounting to US$42 billion, almost US$20 billion of this is going towards debt servicing, which includes both the debt arrears of about US$10 billion as well as US$9 billion on external debt servicing This is borrowing that happened while we had copper in this country.

Madam Speaker, the item that I would like to pick up on, that was highlighted in the report is that debt is, indeed, going to be procured and that it is going to increase from US$13 billion to US$14.7 billion. Therefore, the net borrowing that my hon. Colleague talked about of about US$1.6 billion is, indeed, noted. However, we should take this opportunity also to indicate that while there is a confirmation of borrowing taking place of this US$1.6 billion, at least, the propaganda of the US$6 billion that has been peddled out there has been cleared today. There is no US$6 billion that has been borrowed by this Government since it came into power and the report says so.

Madam Speaker, it is important that when we are dealing with issues of debt, it is not lost on us. Part of the reason almost 50 per cent of the Supplementary Budget is going into debt servicing is because there was wanton contracting of debt in the past.

Madam Speaker, the people of Luena would like to indicate that while they appreciate the passing of the Public Debt Management Act in 2022, they would like to further emphasise that the debt that was procured in the past was significantly abused, misapplied and misused in a number of instances by implementing agencies. The ministry will do as much work as it has done so far in securing the necessary finances at the right price and time. However, if we do not have systems that are monitoring the application and implementation of these projects in the implementing agencies, we will run into serious problems.

Madam Speaker, in the past, we have noted that entities would be given huge sums of money for specific projects. However, they would cleverly craft the contracts in such a manner that the Government is significantly financially exposed. Any little negative development results in huge penalties on the part of the Government. As the people of Luena, we would like to note that this was supposed to be done with the procedures all being followed. However, there was so much negligence in the way these projects were being implemented. It is no wonder at some point, we found ourselves in a situation in which the country was littered with incomplete projects. How were we getting to start these projects without proper plans in place on how we are going to be financed and the project implementation strategies? Clearly, it means that we were borrowing in certain instances based on the availability of the money rather than the business case that we had, that needed to be financed and therefore, we had the proper plans on how we were going to implement.

Madam Speaker, I would like to suggest that we do not see a repeat of what happened in the US$750 million Eurobond and the US$ 1 billion Eurobond and the further borrowing that went up to US$ 3 billion, which we cannot trace. A small amount of that money was thrown all over the institutions and nothing is there to show for the debt burden that the people of Zambia have been left with by our hon. Colleagues who were in the Government.

Madam Speaker, indeed, as the people of Luena, we support this report, but I would like to indicate that the people of Zambia should not forget the problems that we have today. The debt burden that we are carrying now is something that the Government inherited. I am happy that resources are being mobilised in order to dismantle it.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to indicate specific issues on the fuel arrears. The contracts in the procurement of fuel were so deliberately designed such that, if the Government did not increase the amount of money to clear these arrears, it would not have been in a position to get out of the debt arrears. The amounts that were being paid were lower than the interest that was accrued because of how negligent the previous regime was in signing those fuel contracts. On top of buying it at a high price and selling it cheaply, it was accepting to pay interest on anything that was outstanding. So, I would like to support the Annual Borrowing Plan with these few words to go with.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member for Moomba, the chairperson of your Committee, the mover of this Motion, and the seconder, Hon. Mabumba, Member of Parliament for Mwense.

Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleagues have said many things so far. I am not here to repeat what they have said, but to support this important Motion. However, I have a few issues I want to bring to the Floor of this House. These issues are affecting us.

Madam Speaker, the report has brought out important and salient features, which we need to look at, in terms of our trajectory even as we proceed to approve our 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan.

Madam Speaker, there are issues such as the tight monitoring policy stance, which has been put up by various institutions, like the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). Yes, it is important for containing inflation, as well as the volatile foreign exchange rate. However, these interventions also affect our domestic resource mobilisation on which we rely majorly for the support of the Budget.

Madam Speaker, there are also issues on the terms of the external borrowing plan, especially debt sustainability. This is very important because we are looking at how we are moving from our current debt stock and how we are proceeding. Yes, we do understand that the loans, which the Government intends to contract are concessional. They are between 0 to 2.5 per cent, which is very good. However, the maturities of some of these loans, if you look at the Annual Borrowing Plan, are more than ten years. If they fall due almost at the same time, then the Treasury would have pressure servicing such obligations, which will in turn have an adverse effect on our economic growth. So, these are some of the issues we need to reconcile to ensure that we have space and we do not suffocate, as a country. We are just coming from the debt restructuring process. These are very important issues which we need to look at.

Madam Speaker, we have seen where we are coming from. If we look at some of the interest, and commitment fees for some of the loans that were contracted, we will see that some of them were cancelled and that there is the re-scoping of works. This delays economic recovery. A loan is signed, then it takes ten years to mature and eventually, it is cancelled. These are some of the issues we need to be wary of as a country to ensure that we are on a good roadmap to achieve economic recovery to that aspect.

Madam Speaker, we have our able technocrats at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning under the Budget and Economic Affairs Division. They ought to tell us and come up with good mechanisms which will ensure that even as the Government contracts these loans, there are no embedded terms. We have seen embedded terms in some contracts through which the Government has lost colossal sums of money. This is because the technocrats are not coming up to inform the policymakers of some of the issues such as the defects which a contract may have or the specific period in which a particular loan is to be serviced.

Madam Speaker, let me comment on the issue concerning the loans which were contracted, but there was late disbursement of funds. How do we contract loans but not disburse the funds? That entails that when there is a delay, the Government keeps suffering and paying interest on the loans, which are contracted. At the end of the day, we are not seeing the cost-benefit analysis or the benefit to the country, but the country keeps getting indebted. The people from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning should advise us and the policymakers on some of these issues to ensure that we do not contract loans and just look at them. So, because of this, we need to come up with some milestones. We need to re-scope the works and look at other issues.

Madam Speaker, how does the Government contract a loan, and then it sits to look at mechanisms on how to disburse the loans and implement a particular project? The Government should first plan, look at all the ministries that are affected and how it is going to implement a particular project. For instance, let us look at the Smart Zambia project. Money is borrowed to work on Phase II of the Smart Zambia project, but the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has not sat down with other ministries, such as the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, to look at programmes such as the Integrated National Registration Information System (INRIS). The ministry has not sat down with the Department of Immigration and others to harmonise so that when funds are available, it can proceed to disburse and implement the aforesaid project. So, that is very important. There is supposed to be proper co-ordination between stakeholders to ensure that as and when loans are acquired through various stakeholders, we could have already sat and have the plan to move forward to ensure that we effectively implement the projects and the programmes under which we borrowed the funds.

Madam Speaker, yes, there is a revision of our gross domestic product (GDP), which affects our macroeconomic indicators. It is important that some of these issues are also reviewed to ensure that they are in tandem with what is being done in the revision of various indicators.

Madam Speaker, I thought of contributing those few remarks as I sit and support this report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, I am grateful, and I thank the chairperson for that well-delivered report.

Madam Speaker, this report confirms that we are here discussing debt contraction. We are discussing borrowing at a time when we should be discussing a moratorium on debt contraction. The debt situation in our country today is like a patient who is in a hospital and has been advised by doctors to stop taking alcohol, but that patient continues.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: On one hand, we are pursuing debt restructuring, on the other hand, we are contracting more debts at a time when we should have focused on mobilising local revenues, particularly from the mines.

Madam Speaker, Luapula Province, where Hon. B. Mpundu comes from, has sugilite, manganese and copper. For us to realise the money that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is proposing to borrow, we only need about 6.5 trucks of sugilite. That would earn us US$1 billion.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, check the price of sugilite on the London Metal Exchange (LME). That is the price today.

Madam Speaker, we only need about – We have cobalt in our country. A tonne of cobalt is selling at US$63,739. How much resource in that area do we have in our country? In Mpika, we have gold. It is selling at US$76,000 per kg. We only need about five trucks for us to pay the money that the hon. Minister is going to travel out and borrow.

Madam Speaker, further, copper prices have gone up to US$10,393 per metric tonne. Today, as we are discussing the issue of borrowing, our economic mainstay, which is mining, multi-national companies involved in mining are enjoying tax holidays on a promissory note, that they want to increase copper output to 3 million metric tonnes. Why is that so? That is the resource that is needed to develop our country. If there is nothing tangible that we are getting from the mines, then it is high time the Government, that cares for the people, took over the mines. We cannot be discussing borrowing every year when we have resources.

Madam Speaker, the Financial Intelligence Center (FIC) Report of 2023 has revealed a misapplication of K13.3 billion in illicit financial flaws –

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, if this was thoroughly checked, we would discover that some of the illicit financial flaws in the report were actioned from the mining sector. This tells us that we are losing a lot, as a country, but, here we are taxing the poor people even on mobile networks, leaving the mining companies involved in illicit financial flaws. In the first quarter of 2024, the same FIC Report revealed K60 billion in financial flaws. However, here we are discussing the contraction of K6 billion domestic debt and US$490 million external debt. I hear someone passing running commentaries when he knows that there was an undertaking to put a moratorium on the contraction of debt. Even when there is this contraction of debt, there is nothing much to point at in terms of infrastructure development. In Muchinga Province, where I come from, township roads in Mpika are in a dilapidated state –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let us not debate while seated. You were guided earlier.

May the hon. Member for Mpika continue.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, from Mpika to Nabwalya, where we have a community of 15,000 people, there is literally no road there, and a contract for the construction of the road was cancelled, citing the lack of funds. I hope that this time around, we are going to approve this borrowing plan so that the road can be done, including other roads across the country.

Madam Speaker, the Government exists to distribute resources to its people in terms of infrastructure, services and other resources. I heard someone talking about the Euro bond, and, this is an honorable Member, who actually travels out of the country through the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport, which was constructed using money that was borrowed.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Restrict yourself to your debate.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, thank you and I am well guided by your wisdom.

Madam Speaker, we are able to point at some of the things that were done from the contraction of the debt. We expect even more to be done, that is my point. On the issue of there being a huge debt mountain, yes, that is what the Zambian people decided to change players for. They did not expect the new players to continue with the same habit of borrowing, contracting kaloba

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, that is what they voted against.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to please, tighten the loopholes on the mines. Let them pay the taxes that are due to the Zambian people. The Zambian people cannot suffer at the expense of their own resources that are run by multi-nationals. Our people are suffering today, they buy mealie meal at high prices, yet they have resources behind their yards. With the hardworking hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, we can see high taxes on the mines, and eventually taking over the mines so that all the resources being collected are put into service delivery for our people.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. I was hoping hon. Members would yield some time, but it looks like they are reluctant to do so.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, let me begin by thanking the mover of the Motion, the Seconder, and your Committee. I also want to state that I am in support of the Motion. I will just express myself on one or two issues.

Madam Speaker, who, between the two; the parents to the woman and the one who wants to marry, sets the dowry? Traditionally, the one who sets the dowry is the father to the woman, or the parents to the woman, who is to be married. That is normal.

Madam Speaker, in the beginning, there was nothing, the world was void …

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: … there was nothing, and from the nothing, two theories arose. There are those who believe there is someone who created it.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, then there is another version that things generated themselves. We now have two versions, but all that shows that there was a beginning, and in both versions, you will note that there is a human being. Those who believe that there was a creator, also believe that there is also a human being who was created. Likewise, in the other version, where it is said that things evolved, there is also a human being. This is Africa, this is Zambia. Sometimes I chat with the hon. Members here – (pointing at hon. Members).

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I have never gone to those high schools, and I do not even think I can cherish going there. Today, we are talking about debt, ‘D.E.B.T’.

Mr Kampyongo: Nkongole.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, not ‘date’ to mean the fruit, and in my language, it is called bakongo meaning, a debt you owe someone. We are energising ourselves so that we pay, meanwhile, we are going to get more. The question is:

Ms Mulenga: Powerful!

Mr Miyutu: What are we going to get from that debt? For how long have we been getting debt and when are we going to stop?

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, this issue of saying debts are debts, things must start and if we are using the word ‘start’, it is logical for them to end. If you are using the word ‘rise’ it is also logical to go down. We have gold, copper, and people in Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: Quality!

Mr Kampyongo: Emwaume uyo!

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, there is no country in the world without people. All countries have people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, all countries develop because of people.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, what is it that we do not have here? There is literally nothing we do not have in this country. We have an energetic hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and an energetic President.

Madam Speaker, in 2021, the United Party for National Development (UPND) came into power with His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema as the Head of State. The Government built a super structure130 km from the Boma of Kalabo Central Constituency. Why not use that principle of identifying local products? We can use the copper that Zambia produces as well as the land to venture into agricultural production.

Madam Speaker, when the President traveled to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), he reported back to the country that the people of the DRC needed maize. Is the country not able to produce maize? The cost of maize in the DRC is more than it is in Zambia. Zambia has enough land for agricultural produce. It also has the Zambia National Service (ZNS). I went through the ZNS training in Ndola. The green colour of their uniform was adopted to stand for the green revolution to produce food for the Zambian people. That is the essence of the ZNS.

Hon. PF Members: Powerful!

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, when I was at Ndola ZNS Camp, we used to grow maize. The camp bought the Fortschritt Tractors from Russia to use for farming. The tractors worked twenty-four hours a day and seven days a week. If the Government borrows this money and invests it in heavy agriculture and also makes sure that the youths are made to drive the tractors, is the House telling me that we cannot harvest enough grain to pay off the debt? That is up to us.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to say that if a man does not have sons, but has daughters only, and has cattle, the question is: Who will herd the animals? Will this man look for other people’s children to herd his cattle? No, he will use the same girls to herd the cattle. My first child was a boy, I did not go out to get a girl child to wash the plates in my home. My son used to wash the plates. Why can we ourselves not work and move away from the idea of debts? Zambians, let us wake up and be strong to make our country a better place.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members gave one another sweets and water.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much hon. Member for Kalabo Central. I like the generosity of giving out sweets and water.

Hon. Member, please, if you can yield some time. Speak for only four minutes and allow other hon. Members to have time to debate.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I will try to speak within the four minutes because the chairperson of your Committee, which I belong to, has already spoken. Hon. Miyutu has contributed 40 per cent of what I wanted to contribute. Thank you very much chairperson and the deputy chairperson for presenting this report.

Madam Speaker, I have a few things I want to talk about. I wonder what is wrong with Zambia, as a country. I agree there is nothing wrong with the country borrowing money to provide for the needs of its people. If one does not have money, then one must borrow to start a new life. However, if we continuously borrow, in my language we say, chankala chijobelezi which means, you have become addicted to borrowing.

Madam Speaker, from 1964 to date, Zambia has had everything it needs to sustain its people. Zambia can do wonders in both the agriculture and mining sectors. However, what has kept our country so closed-up to just borrowing money from other countries? There is no Government which has not borrowed. The House has been talking about the K13 billion debt, and we are talking about borrowing another K6 billion, which will increase the annual borrowing to K22.3 billion, which is not sustainable for the country.

Madam Speaker, is the House telling me that when we had less than a hundred graduates at the University of Zambia (UNZA), they had a solution to the problems that we have today? We have Vietnam, which came out of a war. Today, its gross domestic product (GDP) has increased, yet it never imported anything from anywhere. You will agree with me that the most educated people in Zambia have master’s degrees. They are keeping their master’s degrees hanging in their homes without providing a solution. Can we go back to our basics. The first thing we can do is engage Zambians to work on under-ground mining.

Madam Speaker, the Government brings in people from Bolivia and other places to do the same work Zambians are doing at a higher price. For example, to mine a certain meter will cost US$100 using a foreign worker and US$10 for a Zambian. Yet, the Government still keeps the foreign workers and gives them mining incentives for nothing. Why can the Government not do away with the foreign workers and give the same jobs to Zambians? Let us not look at a politically-inclined person when he engages in business, thinking that he will fight the Government. I know that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was part of the Government under the late President Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa. He is aware of how the late President acted when copper was at the price it is today and he knows the answers, which the late President gave regarding that. At that time, the hon. Minister was aware of the levels of debt for the country, because he was the director in the ministry and understood all that. Therefore, what is so difficult for the current Government to take the same root?

Madam Speaker, when the UPND took over the Government, we spoke about K300 million to be invested in agriculture. What has happened to that plan? It has died a natural death. If the money had been invested in agriculture, Zambia would have been exporting more maize and soybeans. Today, the House is talking about the little maize that we exported to Tanzania, the DRC and, Kenya and we are complaining about having run out of maize. That is immoral.

Madam Speaker, I thank God that I am a member of the Pan-African Parliament (PAP). If a country has a problem, we look at which country should render help. For example, if Zambia has a problem, Zimbabwe should help out. If the DRC has a problem, we, the Zambians, should help it. Therefore, we should not be lamenting that we sold our maize. The problem is that the country is not producing enough maize. This is the advantage the country sould have taken and increased the production of maize.

Madam Speaker, today, we are talking about the irrigation system. The hon. Minister of Agriculture always talks about the mechanisation system on this Floor of the House, but he only refers to a 1, 2 or 5-ha mechanisation. The country should move on from that. Today, the Zambia National Service (ZNS) has bigger farms on which they can use the mechanisation system. The Government also needs to introduce farm dams so that we can increase our production. It is not practical to sustain the country with debt. Hon. Minister, I still have a solution to the debt the country has.

Madam Speaker, I will leave some time for other hon. Members to debate.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I would like to appreciate my colleague, Hon. Chaatila for moving this Motion and also Hon. Mabumba who seconded it. Allow me to adopt 100 per cent of the submission from the hon. Member for Kalabo Central and the young man, hon. Member for Mpika. I would like to adopt one expression from Hon. Anakoka, Member of Parliament for Luena where he said that the past Governments borrowed money from foreign countries to sustain the economy which is why the current Government is borrowing, to pay the debt.

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, if you had time to look at the Supplementary Budget from page 8, you would note how the hon. Minister tabulated the revenue. The last listing on the page is financing, which is the borrowing the House is talking about today. Under the listing is K17 billion, which the hon. Minister says the Government is saving from the various lines in the 2024 National Budget. If we already appropriated K17 billion, why is the hon. Minister bringing it back to the House for appropriation? This is double counting and it should be removed from the number.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, for this reason, the Supplementary Budget of K41.9 billion should be less by K17 billion. There is a serious double counting. Concerning borrowing, which is the subject of today, I would not want to be the one to stop the Government from borrowing more money. Many people have given the Government ideas on where the money to sustain the country’s economy can come from. I am sure, the ministry has thought about all the ideas given. The best solution the ministry has come up with is to borrow more money. Therefore, I will support the ministry’s decision to borrow more money. However, the hon. Minister should be consistent in his expressions.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was about to drive a point to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that I do not want to sabotage his plan to borrow in order to pay debt.

Madam Speaker, I have also observed that 70 per cent of the Supplementary Budget is going to debt service. Therefore, even the issue of climate change and financially supporting the vulnerable must be subordinated to the debt service because this Supplementary Budget is basically about debt service.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister needs to be consistent in the manner he communicates these numbers. For example, the K6 billion local debt that he intends to borrow in 2024, according to the report, is supplementing K16.3 billion net financing. The hon. Minister needs to note that net financing and financing are not the same because under net financing, you are considering borrowing and then netting off maturities, but in this report, the hon. Minister just said financing, yet there is debt to be paid. Therefore, there is no consistency in the establishment of these numbers and he is making it very difficult to achieve comparability. The Government, which promotes transparency must produce data that is comparable. This data is completely incomparable, and the hon. Minister needs to make sure that he produces consistent data.

Madam Speaker, consistency should not only be in the numbers but also in the policy. The hon. Minister and the President gave us a policy of moratorium on debt and that is what was supported by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central and the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika. Moratorium policy means to stop borrowing. The Government should make sure that the natural resources that are being plundered, the leakages that are causing illicit financial flaws and the maladministration of the Government are plagued, in all three arms of the Government; the Executive, Judiciary and Legislature. So, the hon. Minister should come up with a Budget that will be supported by its citizens in exploitation of the available resources.

Madam Speaker, this request to borrow K6 billion is inconsistent with the hon. Minister’s policy on moratorium, and so he may have to explain that. It is also inconsistent with the policy of the President on moratorium.

Madam Speaker, I also looked at the US$490 million that the hon. Minister wants to borrow. For example, if I used K25, K26, or K27 and came up with K12 billion, K12.7 billion and K13.2 billion, and then I add K6 billion to each of these numbers, what will it amount to? It will amount to K18.2 billion, K18.7 billion and K19.2 billion respectively. So, I do not see any figure that ties up with K16.5 billion, which the hon. Minister has put in the Supplementary Budget.

Madam Speaker, this mathematics can cost us because one should not just dream numbers. One should be able to justify a rate that was used. We know that the United States Dollar has been fluctuating between K24 and K28. If it goes to K28, an intervention is put in, then it comes down to K24, and maybe, a day later, it goes to K25, up to K29, then it drops again. So, these are the appropriate rates. Therefore, what rate was used for the hon. Minister to arrive at K16.5 billion as the total financing or total borrowing amount? The K6 billion plus the US$490 million? I, therefore, think that a clear explanation to the Zambian people is necessary in order to show that we are transparent and accountable to the people who put us in power.

Madam Speaker, I wish to support the hon. Minister’s intention to borrow in order to pay the debt.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, just before I suspended business, there were two indications and I had planned the debate accordingly. So, the hon. Members, who have just indicated to debate, unfortunately, will not be considered. We have to make progress.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for this opportunity you have given me to make a few comments. My hon. Colleagues have said enough of what I would have wanted to say.

Madam Speaker, for the very first time, I want to confess that I am extremely bothered. I am bothered that all of us seated here, in the House, settled from our homes, dressed up in suits just to come and discuss this item. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is asking us to support his intention to add more debt on what he had already borrowed for 2024. That is what we are basically doing. It is an addition to the debt that he had already asked us to contract.

Madam Speaker, there is nothing sinister about borrowing, be it at a personal, household or business level. Certainly, there is nothing sinister about a country borrowing. The economic giants in this world, the likes of the United States of America (USA), borrow. In fact, we are told the USA owes China billions of dollars.

Hon. Members: Trillions.

Mr Mpundu: I am corrected that it is, in fact, trillions of dollars. So, there is nothing sinister about borrowing. Certainly, when a country like Zambia borrows, there is nothing sinister. I want to believe that there is nothing wrong in Hon. Dr Musokotwane coming to this House to ask us to support his intentions to borrow.

Mr Anakoka: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speakers, when I listen to our colleagues seated on the right, they strike me as very intelligent people, especially, when they castigate the people sitting on your left because of their insatiable appetite for borrowing in the previous administration. They strike me as people who have solutions, who will never take us –

Mr Anakoka: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I was seated here listening to the hon. Member for Nkana who has a tendency of casting aspersions on fellow hon. Members of Parliament. Is the hon. Member for Nkana, in order to insinuate that when he looks at the hon. Members on your right, they look like they are intelligent people, consequently, suggesting that that notwithstanding, in his analysis, the opposite is true. Is the hon. Member who is mukulu sana ...

Laughter

Mr Anakoka: ... in order to talk about intelligence and dullness in this House when we are talking about the Government that borrowed K14 billion and one that is borrowing K1.6 billion? Is he in order to make such comparisons?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

We are not supposed to debate ourselves. However, the hon. Member for Luena has not indicated which Standing Order or rule has been breached. Unfortunately, the point of order is not admitted.

The hon. Member for Nkana may continue, but please, do not debate others, stick to the Motion.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, these days, every other conversation we have had about the well-being of this country has, unfortunately, been reduced to a debate on issues of debt. For example, my hon. Colleagues would say that people seated on your left have no right to speak because they borrowed. I would have hoped that our colleagues who strike me as people with solutions would never ask this House to support them to borrow. Strangely enough, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning comes to ask us to support him to borrow to go and service a debt.

Madam Speaker, why do people borrow? People borrow when they do not have. That is why, in my preamble, I said that borrowing is not wrong. The questions I always ask myself are: Does Zambia not have enough that we must continue to borrow? Should Zambia borrow to service another debt? This has bothered me. If the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning had come to this House to suggest that we support him to borrow to go and invest in harnessing a low hanging fruit in the mining sector, I would not have hesitated to support him because that would have given us revenues to pay the debt.

Madam Speaker, we are a country, sadly enough, that would line up intelligent people to go and celebrate debt restructuring. This is where we are now. Intelligent people dressed in suits are asking themselves to borrow to go and service another debt. Does that not sound strange to all of us? It is very strange to me, very strange that all of us twasamba dressed in suits to come and borrow inkongole to service inkongole. Meaning to borrow to go and service another debt, it bothers me a lot. That is why today, I am very conflicted.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning made a decision to allow US$2.5 billion to fly out to an account in Panama from the First Quantum Minerals (FQM) Limited. The case was before the court, but the hon. Minister decided to wash that case away. We lost US$2.5 billion. Can we imagine what that US$2.5 billion would have done to help solve the financial problem that we dealing with today? Would the hon. Minister have come to borrow here? Certainly not. There was a mining company that was owing US$1 billion in taxes and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning decided to make a sweeping decision to only allow it to pay a meagre US$30 million.

Hon. PF Members: US$23 million!

Mr B. Mpundu: Yes, US$23 million.

Madam Speaker, are we okay to be making those decisions? Are we certainly okay that we can come and say, iseni tukongole, let us borrow when we allow huge sums of money to flow by, yet we do understand that when there is the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) Report, it is as a result of such reckless decisions where we allow monies to just go out like that?

Madam Speaker, my colleagues have talked about the wealth of minerals in many areas. For example, the sugilite mineral, does it not bother you that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has never come to the House to tell the nation what the Government is doing to harness that lucrative mineral? Today, we are talking about going to borrow to pay inkongole or to pay debts. Does it not bother you that the country is endowed with gold resources starting from Kasenseli all the way to Mpika, Shiwang’andu, Lumezi and many other places? For instance, the price of gold on the international market is very good. We can only imagine what gold can do to our economy. Are we a country that should continue to sit, dressed up in suits to be discussing how we should borrow to go and service another debt? I am extremely ashamed and bothered. I am extremely baffled that we sit here to support the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who is letting go of huge sums of money only to come and ask us to support him to borrow to go and service another borrowing. That is unacceptable.

Madam Speaker, I do not want to see our friends pointing fingers at the people on your left talking about debt when their insatiable appetite for borrowing is manifesting each and every year. They are borrowing every year, and the hon. Minister cannot even explain. I was listening to an interview one day where he was asked how much he borrowed, he could not even state. Dishonesty of the highest order. As I sit, I would like to say, I am extremely bothered.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu: Point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, my point of order is premised on Standing Order No. 71. I respect Hon. B. Mpundu very much.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, we are here to transact the business of the House. There is an Order Paper, which has outlined the activities to be undertaken today. That is why we are here, in the House.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Secondly, Madam Speaker, we cannot come here not dressed.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: I do not know in what form the hon. Member would want to see the hon. Members here, in the House.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: To me, I believe that we are supposed to be seated here, dressed.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member for Nkana, surely, in order to indicate that we are here seated in suits without saying in what form he wanted us to be?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: If the hon. Member for Nkana was at all suggesting that hon. Members should come here not dressed in suits, then he was out of order. The accepted standard of dress in this House is a suit. It is prescribed in our Standing Orders. If he had appeared here in another form, he would not have been allowed to debate or even to sit in the House.

May the hon. Member for Nkana continue.

Interruptions

Mr B. Mpundu: I am done, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Well, he is done.

Hon. Members, we have to make progress. I have seen that there have been indications to speak, but I had said that the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu would be the last one to debate. The beauty is that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is going to respond. So, let us not worry.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to make a few comments on the report.

Mr Kafwaya and Mr Kang’ombe stood to leave the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: Sorry, hon. Members for Kamfinsa and Lunte, you debated and I am sure you would want to hear the responses from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning unless it is so urgent that you cannot wait to leave the House. I would suggest that you wait until the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning concludes then you can leave the Assembly Chamber.

May you please, resume your seats.

Mr Kafwaya and Mr Kang’ombe resumed their seats.

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu continue with his debate.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I was just acknowledging the Motion moved by Hon. Chaatila to adopt the report of your Committee. I think, my colleagues have spoken a lot. We missed an opportunity to debate the entire Supplementary Budget.

Madam Speaker, hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning come to borrow for a purpose. The hon. Minister has come to borrow just as his predecessors had been to this august House to do the same. I commend the hon. Minister for apportioning some of the money to clear off fuel arrears. There has been a lot of talk about the fuel arrears.

Madam Speaker, those hon. Members who were here should remember that this debt started accruing at the most difficult time, just as we have the drought now. We had the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) situation starting from 2019 to 2021. Therefore, the economic activities of this country had almost come to a halt. So, those who might not understand how those arrears accumulated without being serviced, now should know. The same way the hon. Minister is trying to realign his Budget to alleviate the damages caused by drought is the same way we had to deal with the COVID-19 situation. So, when we are debating, let us not politicise these matters because we now are coming to the reality of what happens in governance.

Madam Speaker, I have no problem with the proposals made by the hon. Minister. We approved here in this House for this fiscal year for him to go and borrow K16.3 billion, which was the maximum limit of the net domestic financing for this fiscal year. According to the report, your Committee is telling us that out of that projection, the hon. Minister has only been able to raise about K0.5 billion from the traditional Government borrowing, which is bonds and treasury bills referred to as Government securities. This entails an ambitious proposal; to borrow an extra K6 billion which will now go beyond that limit which was given in this fiscal year and take it to K22.3 billion. I am saying ambitious because how does the hon. Minister realise that? He is now going to borrow from commercial banks. What does that do? It will crowd out the private sector which is already stressed due to load-shedding. Production has gone down. So, those who would want to borrow to acquire alternative sources of energy to sustain production are now not going to have where to go and borrow. At the same time, the cost of borrowing will be very high.

Madam Speaker, we sympathise with the hon. Minister, but to agree with the submission from Hon. B. Mpundu, from the previous work, we would have loved to see, what those people who were forgiven for that criminal misconduct of trying to syphon US$2.5 billion would have done to contribute to the revenue basket. That is what we should have been seeing here. The hon. Minister was going to reduce the Government expenditure by K17.2 billion if that money was recovered. What that entails is that the Government functions are now going to be crippled. It certainly paints a gloomy picture. His treasury bills and bonds have failed to perform, why? The auctions cannot perform due to the rising tight liquidity conditions in the economy.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is even making it difficult. He crowds out the private sector where he is supposed to generate revenue and then the bonds are not performing. How is this plan going to be realised? The hon. Minister has come here, to say that he has failed to raise the K6.3 billion because the Government bonds are not performing. By the end of March 2024, the Government was only able to raise about K0.5 billion out of K16.3 billion, and now we are in July 2024. These are the realities. We are here advising the ministry to look to other alternatives to generate revenue because it is disingenuous, like others are saying, to try and fix a debt by borrowing, whether cheaply or otherwise.

Madam Speaker, the illicit financial flaws as revealed by the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) Report are pointing to tax evasion. People are not paying taxes. These are big people who have connections. They are people who are syphoning the money that should give revenue to the hon. Minister for his supplementary requirements.

Mr Kamboni: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, my point of order is premised on Standing Order No. 71. The loans that were there were very expensive. The fuel loan that remained when the Patriotic Front (PF) left Government was about US$800 million. After a year, the loan almost doubled. The Government borrowed to clear expensive loans so that we could save money. For instance, if the loan was US$100 million, the following year, it would be US$200 million. That was too much and unsustainable. So, the Government borrowed cheaper loans to clear the expensive loans.

Interruptions

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, is it correct for the hon. Member to come here and say that we are borrowing to pay other loans when in actual sense we are clearing expensive loans? The loans we are getting now are cheaper so we can save and save the country’s image. Is the hon. Member debating in order to mislead the nation on a very good purpose of trying to clear expensive loans by bringing in cheaper ones?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

I saw that the hon. Member for Kalomo Central had indicated to debate, and since I had given the Floor to the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, he took advantage through a point of order to debate using the back door.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister will be able to respond. So, do not worry. The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu may proceed. He is in order to continue.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, Hon. Kamboni is just augmenting my points that we are contracting debt to clear debts. So, it is in line.

Madam Speaker, I talked about tax evasion, and politically exposed people who are engaged in these transactions. If we seal these loopholes, it will be easier for the hon. Minister to mobilise local revenue. The hon. Minister has projected to contract US$914 million. Again, out of this amount, he has only managed to get about US$158 million by the end of March 2024. We have passed half the year. So, it shows us the challenges he is facing.

Madam Speaker, we have no objection to the hon. Minister borrowing because this is normal. However, we are concerned about the hon. Minister allowing his counterparts to export maize, which we had in stock. Right now, he has to find Dollars to buy the same maize at a more expensive price than it should have been for him if he had preserved the grain. We lamented here concerning the exportation of the maize because this climate change is well known to everyone now. So, we knew we would end up where we are now. Therefore, this manner of contracting debt to deal with issues that we should have avoided is what we have challenges with.

Madam Speaker, we will continue supporting him to continue borrowing because that is how it is.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to comment and respond to the debates. I also want to thank your Committee for its report and, indeed, the whole House for the support that it rendered. Let me make a number of comments and responses.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I am happy. If you noticed that for the past few days, there have been a lot of stories coming from the Patriotic Front (PF) side that the United Party for National Development (UPND) has borrowed US$6 billion since it came into office. The matter has now been clarified that there is no US$6 billion that was borrowed since the party came into office. It is rather just part of the culture of our colleagues of just throwing things around causing, confusion …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … and misleading themselves. I would request that our colleagues invest in knowledge enhancement ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … and I will come back to that point later. They should invest in knowledge enhancement because if they do not have knowledge, they are a danger to themselves and to the country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, why we are borrowing and presenting the Supplementary Budget? As we have said, firstly, we have to respond to the drought and there is money in the Budget to respond to the drought. Secondly, the Supplementary Budgets comes in because we have to borrow money …

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … and part of the money is used to pay off the debts that our colleagues left behind.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I am shocked to hear somebody in this Parliament saying that we cannot borrow money to pay off a debt. This is really shocking and this is why I feel that we all need to enhance our knowledge.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, borrowing cheap money to pay off expensive money is a very sensible thing to do.

Hon. UPND Members: It is prudent!

Dr Musokotwane: Whether we are talking about corporations or Governments, it makes perfect economic sense to borrow cheaply and pay off expensive debts.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes, kaloba!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, even as an individual, if I borrowed money from a colleague who said every month the amount doubles, for instance, I get K100, then next month I pay K200, and the other month, I pay K300, it makes sense for me to go and borrow from a brother with no interest rate. So, how can anyone say that they are shocked to see cheap money being borrowed to pay off expensive money? Let us enhance our knowledge of these things so that we stop being a danger to ourselves.

Madam Speaker, indeed, one of our colleagues from the other side asked: Why is it that we are not putting enough money on the drought relief from most of the money we are borrowing? We have put some money into drought relief, but equally important, we had to restructure the debts that our colleagues left behind, especially the external debts. The electricity that they imported from Mozambique on credit is stopping us from buying electricity from Mozambique because they are saying that we should first pay the debt, which was left behind. We have to pay for that. How can they be surprised that we have to pay for electricity bills that they left behind?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the previous Government was not paying for the expensive fuel that it was collecting because every four years, the bill doubles. When we pay that, they get surprised.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, as a country, we have to get away from the habit that those colleagues left behind, of borrowing and then wanting to hide. They cannot hide. If they have borrowed, they must pay.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, we are now paying for the debts that were left behind by the previous Government.

Madam Speaker, what remains on the debt is not just debts from financial institutions. We know that a lot of arrears were left. Every day, people are knocking at the Road Development Agency (RDA) and the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) saying that they constructed roads, even though we cannot see them, but we must pay. These are the issues that our colleagues left behind and we are still grappling with. So, the next time we come here and say we need to borrow money to pay off debts, again, they will be surprised. Investment in knowledge is very important.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, if we notice from the debates of most of our colleagues today, they are very happy to see that the UPND Government is also borrowing just like they used to borrow.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: They are very happy to say that even we are borrowing. There is a difference between our borrowing and their borrowing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in Dollar terms, they were borrowing at 8 per cent, 9 per cent –

Mr B. Mpundu interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Nkana, you were given an opportunity to debate while the other hon. Members were listening. Please, refrain from debating while seated. May the hon. Minister continue.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, they were borrowing at 8 per cent, 9 per cent and 10 per cent. Today, when we borrow from the International Monetary Fund (IMF), we borrow at zero per cent.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, when we borrow from the World Bank, we borrow at 0.5 per cent, less than 1 per cent. Let us enhance our knowledge so that we know that there is a difference between borrowing at 10 per cent and borrowing at 0 per cent.

Madam Speaker, on top of that, there is a difference because we are no longer accumulating arrears. When we give a contract, we pay. So, credibility to the Government is coming back. Our hon. Colleagues on the left would collect things all over the place and not pay back. There is a difference.

Madam Speaker, our hon. Colleagues have been questioning why we are not doing something to collect more money from the mines so that we do not borrow, but generate revenue and be able to pay for the debt. This is precisely what we are doing now. Their concept of collecting money from the mines led us to another problem. As we speak, the PF Government closed two of the biggest mining companies in the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, can you imagine a Government that goes to collect debt all over the place, closing its source of foreign exchange, which we are supposed to use to pay? Our hon. Colleagues should enhance their knowledge.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: It is important.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, our hon. Colleagues should enhance their knowledge so that they speak from knowledge, because if they close the mines and expect to get more money from the mines, then I do not know what is going on in their minds.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the mines are reopening. The new ones are coming in and we are on course to collect more money to pay off the debts and create jobs.

Madam Speaker, finally, let me come to the issue of the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) Report. During the time of the PF Government, whenever the report was released, …

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: … the Government would fire the chairperson, the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) for releasing the report. Under this Government, the chairperson and the CEO are there because there is nothing to hide.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Minister, please, wind up.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, for them, they were firing chairpersons.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, before we proceed, there are indications for points of order. We are supposed to be closing our debate. There are three, but I will pick one. The hon. Member who indicated first was the hon. Member for Nkana.

A point of order is raised.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Orders No. 71, this august House provides a platform for factual submissions and reporting.

Madam Speaker, for a very long time, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has continued to skirt around the issue of debt contraction, precisely, how much the United Party for National Development (UPND) has borrowed. On the Floor, he has gone on to castigate people who are making assumptions as to how much the Government has borrowed. He has failed to then state how much it has borrowed.

Madam Speaker, is he in order to waste this very golden opportunity to clear the air about how much the UPND has borrowed and chooses to attack people who are merely making assumptions because of his having created a void and not feeding the public with the truth? Should the hon. Minister not have taken this opportunity to tell the Zambians how much he has borrowed since the UPND came into power. That is what the public wants to know.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

Madam Speaker: Since you are asking the hon. Minister, I will give him an opportunity to respond to that.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank you. They have been saying that –

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, they were saying we have borrowed US$6 billion. In 2021, we found a debt of US$12.7 billion.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us wait. You asked a question so, give the hon. Minister a chance to respond.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in 2021, we found a debt of US$12.7 billion. In 2024, US$14 .6 billion that is nothing compared to the US$6 billion that they have been talking about.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Maybe, the hon. Member for Nkana can visit the hon. Minister to acquire some knowledge.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Alright, let us conclude this item.

Hon. Member for Moomba, wind up debate.

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to wind up debate. I will not take long.

Madam Speaker, I just want to indicate that if there is something we have benefited as a House, it is the fact that this Government brought on board the Public Debt Management Act.

Madam Speaker, issues of borrowing in the previous Governments were not discussed in this House. This is my second term as a Member of Parliament and this is the first time that I have seen the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning bringing the first Annual Borrowing Plan for 2023, which we already discussed. This is how it should be because then, we are promoting transparency and accountability. On that score, I thought it was important, especially for my hon. Colleagues who are new in this House, to understand that if we go this direction, then we are on course.

Madam Speaker, I will talk about the issue of how much the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has borrowed although, I did not want to go that route. In the report, from 2005, when there was the heavily indebted poor countries (HIPC) initiative completion point, up to 2011, I think, under the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), the Government left them a debt of about US$500 million. In 2021, and the report is there, we were sitting at US$13.2 billion from US$500 million. In the first quarter of 2024, we had US$ 14.7 million. So, if you look at those figures, you will see that technically, the UPND Government has only borrowed US$1.7 billion in three years, to answer that question, especially from the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank all the nine hon. Members who have debated, including the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who was the tenth one to debate, for their support.

Madam Speaker, as your Committee, we are so grateful to you for allowing us to bring this report to the Table of this House.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Question put and agreed to.

_______

BILLS

SECOND READING

LANDS TRIBUNAL (Amendment) BILL, 2024

The Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Mr Muchima): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me this honour and privilege to deliver the second reading of the Lands Tribunal (Amendment) Bill, No. 6 of 2024 before this august House.

Madam Speaker, the Lands Tribunal was established under the Lands Act of 1995 to provide for an alternative and cost-effective mechanism for resolving land disputes. The Land Tribunal is a formal legal body that resolves disputes related to land ownership, tenure and usage. Its main functions are to:

hear cases on land disputes between individuals, organisations or public entities;

resolve conflicts over land boundaries, titles and ownership;

determine compensation for land acquisition or exploration; and

deal with issues related to land use such as zoning and development.

Madam Speaker, the Lands Tribunal (Amendment) Bill of 2024 seeks to introduce provisions in the law that will enhance the operations of the Lands Tribunal. The Bill, once enacted, shall facilitate the creation of registries in the provinces and districts.

The Bill herein, shall enable litigants to file documents and court process in their respective provinces without having to travel to Lusaka. Currently, you may wish to note that the Lands Tribunal has offices and the registry only in Lusaka. Consequently, clients who need the services have to travel to Lusaka for filing of court process. There is a need to amend the Act in order to decentralise the services to other provinces in order to take the services closer to the people.

Madam Speaker, currently, appeals from the Lands Tribunal go to the High Court. However, in terms of jurisdiction, the Lands Tribunal hears similar land cases with the High Court. In addition, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016, states that appeals from quasi- judicial bodies should go to the Court of Appeal.

“Article 131(1) of the Constitution reads:

The court of appeal has jurisdiction to hear appeals from;

the High Court;

other courts, except for matters under the exclusive jurisdiction of the constitutional court; and

quasi-judicial bodies, except a local government elections tribunal.”

Therefore, the Bill shall allow appeals from the tribunal, which is a quasi-judicial body, to proceed to the Court of Appeal thereby making the Lands Tribunal Act to be in line with the provisions of the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, the Bill further seeks to create the position of assistant registrar. The registrar has been, for a long time, the only qualified legal staff at the tribunal. The Bill shall allow for the creation of the position of assistant registrar and other support staff, such as court reporters, who shall assist the registrar in the execution of tribunal functions as prescribed in the Section 7(2) of the Lands Tribunal Act.

Madam Speaker, these are just but a few highlights of the proposed Bill. I seek the support of the hon. Members of the House.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference as provided for in Order No. 209(a) and 210 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, your Committee was tasked to consider the Lands Tribunal (Amendment) Bill No. 6 of 2024, which was laid on the Table of the House on 3^rd July, 2024. In order to acquaint itself with the ramifications of the Bill, your Committee sought both written and oral submissions from key stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I want to state that most witnesses who appeared before your Committee were in support of the Bill. In this regard, allow me, then, to highlight a few concerns raised on certain provisions of the Bill.

Madam Speaker, with a lot of humility, I am confident that the hon. Members of this august House have read your Committee's report. I will, therefore, only highlight a few issues that caught your Committee's attention.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I want to state that your Committee commends the proposal to establish the principal registry and district registries and views it as a progressive step towards the decentralisation of the Lands Tribunal. This will enhance speedy access to justice in relation to land for the Zambian people in various corners of the country.

However, your Committee does not support the proposal to authorise the chairperson to determine the location of the district registries as these are directly linked to the access of justice for the Zambian people in relation to land disputes. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the power to designate district registries should be a preserve of the law and not the chairperson, as proposed in the Bill.

Madam Speaker, another issue of concern to your Committee is that the Bill provides that the tribunal will be composed of not more than three members, from the public and private sectors, two of whom shall be legal practitioners. You may wish to note that currently, four legal practitioners sit on the tribunal. Therefore, the inclusion of two more legal practitioners will not be prudent as this will reduce wider participation from other members of the public.

In this vein, your Committee recommends that individuals that are well vested in matters of land be included on the tribunal as this will help the tribunal to have a better understanding of matters relating to land disputes when handling them.

Madam Speaker, thirdly, your Committee notes that Section 6(5) of the Bill empowers the tribunal with the authority to appoint ‘other staff’ that the tribunal considers necessary for its effective performance. This is of particular concern to your Committee because the tribunal does not have any human resource expertise to enable it to carry out such an important undertaking. Additionally, the tribunal does not have the mandate to appoint other staff as this mandate belongs to the Judicial Service Commission (JSC).

Madam Speaker, your Committee is, therefore, of the considered view that the human resource function will only broaden the mandate of the tribunal while to a certain extent neglecting its jurisdiction as provided for in Section 4 of the Principal Act, to hear and determine land disputes.

In view of this, Madam Speaker, your Committee recommends that the proposal to allow the tribunal to hire staff be deleted from the Bill and for the power to appoint other staff, as well as determination of conditions of service, be vested in the JSC, as provided in the Principal Act.

Madam Speaker, allow me to conclude by stating that your Committee supports the Bill and therefore, urges the House to take its recommendations into consideration as the Bill is being debated.

Madam Speaker, I wish to pay tribute to stakeholders who interacted with your Committee. Gratitude also goes to you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, allow me to debate in support of this very important Bill, being mindful of the role that the Lands Tribunal plays in the dispensation of justice insofar as land disputes are concerned. The Lands Tribunal Act is clear concerning the jurisdiction of this very important tribunal. So, the need for us to decentralise the Lands Tribunal cannot be overemphasised. I will give an example that, as we treasure a resource called land, more realisation has come to the fore that there is value and a lot of interest that has been created in a country such as ours with vast areas of land.

Madam Speaker, we have people being displaced. We have seen people being duped of their land. We have people whose rights and interests in the land would be thrown to the wind because they do not have the means to seek redress. People travel from Kanchibiya to Lusaka to be heard by a tribunal, based in Lusaka. The need for us to have the tribunal at the district level becomes critical. The reason some of us support this very important Bill is that we have realised, as a nation, that more value must be placed on the administration of land.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is non-controversial. It is in the direction we must be going, as a country. The need for us to reinforce and strengthen the legal framework around land administration and justice concerning land cannot be overemphasised.

Madam Speaker, allow me on behalf of the people of Kanchibiya to say that we support this Bill in totality. I wish to take great exception and look at the bigger picture in some of the peripheral issues your Committee had with this Bill. Land administration as we know it today is a big issue. So, let us look at some of the peripheral issues and the reservations your Committee had. Let us look at land administration in the next ten to twenty years. What type of legal framework do we want to create around land administration, especially for those of our people who depend on the Lands Tribunal to resolve land conflicts?

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, allow me to support this Bill in totality.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Members of Parliament for silently supporting the Bill.

Madam Speaker, I want to comment on one issue of the emoluments coming from the Judicial Service Commission. The Lands Tribunal belongs to the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources. It is an arm of the ministry. As such, the Emoluments Commission in consultation with the hon. Minister will be looking into these allowances.

Madam Speaker, I also thank the hon. Member for Kanchibiya for his contributions. Indeed, this is what the Government has decided and I have taken note of your Committee’s report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 16^th July, 2024.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Matrimonial Causes (Amendment) Bill, 2024.

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE NO. 1 OF 2024

Votes 03, 12, 17, 21, 29, 35 and 45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 52 – (Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation – K301,610,991)

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Chikote) (on behalf of the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Eng. Nzovu)): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that K301,610,991 be approved in respect of Head 52 - Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation as part of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2024.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Chairperson, I support the allocation of funds to the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation. However, I feel the amount allocated to this ministry is not enough. Some of the money that has been allocated to other ministries, for example, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development could have been allocated to the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation, which needs more money at the moment because of the problems of water shortages that we are experiencing. Hon. Members of Parliament from the valleys would agree with me that their water sources are dry and therefore, there is a need to drill more boreholes.

My plea to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is for it to increase the allocation of the Supplementary Budget to the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation so that we can construct more water points, more water dams and drill more industrial boreholes.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chikote: Madam Chairperson, indeed, the concerns raised are important and we have taken note. We believe that these are the matters that this Government is putting into consideration so that the problems of inadequate water supply are addressed.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Chairperson, while we agree with the allocation to his particular Head, I also share similar concerns with my brother, Hon. Menyani Zulu.

Madam Chairperson, His Excellency the President has declared the drought situation in the country an emergency. So, this means that the way we allocate resources to this particular Head must be in a way that ensures that resources are adequate and are able to deal with the challenges which our people are facing. If we have more boreholes throughout the country, especially in rural areas, it means that our people will engage in the irrigation system of farming hence, increasing food production. However, by increasing the allocation by by only K301,610,991 at the time when the President has declared the drought situation a disaster, I feel that we are not doing justice to this nation.

Madam Chairperson, I am also aware that drillers have rejected the price that has been offered by the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation in terms of drilling of boreholes. The drillers feel that the amount offered falls below the cost of drilling the boreholes. So, there is a standoff at the moment. This is why boreholes, which were supposed to be drilled as far back as 2022, have not been drilled to date. So, it is quite a sad development. As a country, we must deal with this particular matter so that our people can have access to water.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister should see to it that the people who are given contracts to drill boreholes are serious contractors. At the moment, most of our local contractors are failing to meet their contractual obligations, and our people out there are lamenting that as the Government, we are not doing much to ensure people have access to safe drinking water.

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I believe it is important that we increase the allocation to the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation, looking at the magnitude of the drought we are facing in this country.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chikote: Madam Chairperson, issues of water supply are very important. Therefore, I can assure the hon. Members that although the Government has not come up with a figure, a lot of assessments have been done to respond to the drought situation that has hit most of our farmers. The issues concerning irrigation systems are matters that have been put as a priority.

Madam Chairperson, I want to assure the hon. Member that there is no rejection of drilling boreholes. Everything is on course, and very soon, work will commence in most of the areas across the country where we feel we need to drill the boreholes.

Madam Chairperson, the assurance I can give is that there is no rejection of such. Those are just rumours. We are in discussion with all the drillers and matters are moving very well.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_______

The House adjourned at 1830 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 11^th July, 2024.

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