Tuesday, 16th July, 2024

Tuesday 16^th July, 2024

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM MUNLO TRUST SCHOOL IN CHAMBA VALLEY, LUSAKA DISTRICT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from Munlo Trust School in Chamba Valley, Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

STAFF FROM ATMOSPHERE ENTERPRISE LIMITED IN KALUNDU, LUSAKA DISTRICT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of members of staff from Atmosphere Enterprise Limited in Kalundu, Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors in our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

TREE PLANTING CEREMONY AT MUTAMBE PRIMARY SCHOOL IN MANDEVU CONSTITUENCY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that I will officiate at a tree planting ceremony on Wednesday,17^th July, 2024, at Mutambe Primary School in Mandevu Constituency, at 1000 hours.

Mr Shakafuswa: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The tree planting event, which has been organised in collaboration with the Zambia Institute of Public Relations and Communication (ZIPRC), is part of the “Plant A Tree Speaker’s Challenge” meant to foster environmental sustainability.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu Constituency and selected members of the Zambian Parliamentary Caucus on Environment and Climate (ZPCECC) will accompany me to the event.

I thank you.

Mr Shakafuswa: Hear, hear!

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URGENT MATTERS WITH NOTICE

MR MUNIR ZULU, HON. MEMBER FOR LUMEZI, ON MRS NALUMANGO, THE VICE-PRESIDENT, ON THE SERIOUS REVELATIONS AGAINST THE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION BY DR O’BRIEN KAABA

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for permitting me to raise an urgent matter without notice on behalf of the people of Lumezi directed at Her Honour the Vice-President of the Republic of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that a renowned academician, Dr O’Brien Kaaba, who is a member of the Board of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), has in the last few days, made serious revelations of how corrupt the institution has become. When some of us spoke about the matter during the debate of the 2022 Budget, we were vilified, victimised and called all sorts of names.

Madam Speaker, is Her Honour the Vice-President in order to be mute, when the institution that is supposed to champion the corruption fight in this country is deeply divided? There is a divide between the board and management of the ACC.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence on the matter.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Lumezi. The issue of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and what Dr Kaaba has written has been making rounds. I recall that sometime last week, the hon. Member for Nkana referred to the matter, and I asked him to file in a question, but he has not done so.

Mr B. Mpundu pointed at Mr Kapyanga.

Madam Speaker: However, at the rate things are going – Oh! It was the hon. Member for Mpika.

I believe the members of the public are entitled to know what is happening.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The Government has to clear the air by telling the people what is happening.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: So, Her Honour the Vice-President should come to the House on Thursday to deliver a ministerial statement on the matter and to tell the people of Zambia what is happening. The Government should clear the air on what is happening at the ACC.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

MR CHITOTELA, HON. MEMBER FOR PAMBASHE, ON MR KAPALA, THE HON. MINISTER OF ENERGY, ON WHY THE COUNTRY CONTINUES TO EXPORT POWER WHEN ZAMBIANS ARE LOSING JOBS DUE TO LOAD-SHEDDING

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, my urgent matter without notice is directed at the hon. Minister of Energy.

Madam Speaker, I know it may sound tedious, but there is a new revelation by the Government of Botswana that 49 per cent of its energy is being supplied by the Zambian Government. Of course, South Africa has also indicated that it is importing power from Zambia. The same goes for the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) and Namibia. To make matters worse, the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the Zambezi River Authority (ZRA)stated in both print and electronic media that Kariba Dam has not run out of water; the Zambian Government is over-using the water and exporting power, which has resulted in the Zambian people suffering prolonged load-shedding.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, despite the President directing the hon. Minister to cut the export of power to other countries, on Saturday, Botswana confirmed that 49 per cent of its energy comes from Zambia.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to disregard the President’s directive and endanger the lives of Zambians, who are suffering prolonged load-shedding? Many people have lost employment because of load-shedding.

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member for Pambashe. The issue of energy, drought and importation of power has been addressed on the Floor of the House on a number of occasions. I suggest that the hon. Member for Pambashe files in a question, and the hon. Minister will answer it once it has been submitted.

MR MTAYACHALO, HON. MEMBER FOR CHAMA NORTH, ON ENG. NZOVU, THE HON. MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, ON BOREHOLES NOT DRILLED EVEN AFTER CONTRACTORS WERE PAID

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, my urgent matter without notice is directed at the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Madam Speaker, early last year, the hon. Minister came to this august House and delivered a ministerial statement, in which he announced the awarding of contracts for the drilling of more than 1,200 boreholes throughout the country.

Madam Speaker, at the moment, most of the contractors have failed to honour their contractual obligations, despite having been paid by the Government. For example, Chama North and Chama South were allocated twenty-four boreholes. The contractors have not drilled boreholes in Chasefu and several other constituencies despite having received the money. The President has declared the drought situation an emergency, meaning that all efforts must be made to ensure that our people have access to water for irrigation and food security.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation in order to keep quiet and not update the House and the nation on why the contractors have failed to honour their contractual obligations? Most of our people are suffering because they do not have access to water, and hon. Members of Parliament are being blamed for the situation.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Chama North. Are those colormatic spectacles or sunglasses?

Laughter

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I had an eye operation. I am trying to prevent sunlight from entering my eyes, hence my wearing them.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Okay. I thought you were seeing in the future, and the future is very bright.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama North, if you had checked the Order Paper, you would have seen that there is a question touching on issues of water. Probably, you can file a question. If the hon. Minister came and rendered a ministerial statement, you know the procedure for following up on whether what the hon. Minister spoke about was done or not. Please, file in a question, or take advantage of the question that is on the Floor of the House today, and ask a question on a point of clarification. Thank you very much.

That concludes urgent matters without notice. Let us go to the next item on the Order Paper.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ERRATIC WATER SUPPLY IN NYIMBA AND CHAMA DISTRICTS

386. Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba) asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

whether the Government is aware that Nyimba and Chama districts have been experiencing erratic water supply in the last three weeks;

if so, what the cause of the erratic supply in the two districts is; and

what urgent measures are being taken to prevent an outbreak of water-borne diseases and loss of life.

The Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala) (on behalf of the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Eng. Nzovu)): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware that Nyimba District and Chama District have been experiencing erratic water supply in the last three weeks. The cause of the erratic water supply in the two districts is a reduction in borehole water yields affecting water supply in the districts and the province at large.

Madam Speaker, the urgent measures being undertaken to prevent an outbreak of water-borne diseases and loss of life in Nyimba include the following:

the utility is currently rationing water supply for about seven hours per day to ensure that clean and safe water is supplied to the people of Nyimba;

the ministry will construct Kalambakuwa Dam in Nyimba District with a capacity of 70,000 cu m of water for animal watering and household use in the rural parts of the district, which will benefit 13,089 animals at 1,200 households. The dam is expected to be completed by December 2024, with the cost to be determined once the contractor is procured in line with the Drought Response Plan being implemented by the Government;

the ministry, through the Eastern Water Supply and Sanitation Company (EWSC), is in the process of drilling and equipping two industrial boreholes to be powered by solar energy by October 2024. The project is aimed at increasing water supply from an average of five hours to ten hours daily. The utility is currently in the process of procuring the contractors for the work in line with the Drought Response Plan; and

regarding the long-term measures, the ministry, through the utility company, plans to expand the water reticulation system by constructing a new elevated storage water tank with a capacity of 750 cu m at a higher elevation. This will cater for new areas and increase the capacity of the pipe systems to carter for increased demand. The cost estimate for expanding the system and increasing the capacity of the pipe system is about K30 million. The project will be implemented once funds are made available. The ministry, through the utility company, has undertaken feasibility studies and preliminary designs for the improvement of the water supply in the district, which will be implemented once funds are made available;

Madam Speaker, in the case of Chama District, the following measures apply:

the utility is currently rationing water supply to about five hours per day to ensure that all households receive some water;

the ministry will construct Mphala Hill Dam in Chama District, which will primarily be used for water supply and benefit approximately 28,000 people. The dam is expected to be completed by December 2024, and has an anticipated water volume of about 1.6 million cu m. The project cost will be determined once the contractor is procured;

the ministry, through the utility company, is in the process of drilling and equipping two industrial boreholes to be powered by solar energy by October 2024. The project is aimed at increasing water supply from an average of five hours to ten hours daily. The utility is currently in the process of procuring contractors for the work in accordance with the Drought Response Plan; and

as for the long-term measures, the ministry, through the utility, associated or water supply plans to construct a surface water treatment plant and associated works for water supply, as the current underground water sources are highly unreliable.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as you ask questions, be straightforward and to the point. Do not debate because I have seen that there are many indications. Many people want to ask questions. So, if you are precise or to the point, I will be able to allow more questions to be asked.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, before I ask my question, I want to put on record that I had raised an urgent matter without notice last week over the situation in Chama –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama North, I have just guided that you should only ask your question and not debate. I heard what you said earlier on the urgent matter without notice that you wanted to raise, and I guided that you take advantage of the question on the Order Paper to ask your question.

You may proceed.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I am well-guided.

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that response. Indeed, the challenges of water in Chama District are as a result of prolonged load-shedding. The hon. Minister is aware that ZESCO Limited has stand-by generators. When the whole country is load-shed, the company does not run the generators as it should, because it does not have diesel. Is the ministry working on ensuring that when power supply is cut off, ZESCO Limited is able to run the diesel generators so that our people do not have erratic water supply?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I indicated in my response that the erratic water supply in Chama District is due to low water levels in the boreholes and that it has nothing or very little to do with load-shedding.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, you will agree with me that good statements regarding Nyimba District usually come from hon. Ministers. However, they do not come to fruition. The people of Nyimba will be very glad if Kalambakuwa Dam, which is 35 km from Nyimba, is reconstructed by December. They will thank the hon. Minister for that project because it has taken a long time for it to be rehabilitated.

Madam Speaker, Mufumbizi Water Point for the Eastern Water and Sewerage Company (EWSC) does not have low water levels. My question was on the immediate measures that the ministry is implementing to address the water problems, but it has not been answered. The hon. Minister mentioned October. Is it so difficult for the Government to rehabilitate the boreholes that were suspended by the EWSC so that the people start using them? The population of Nyimba is very small. So, when the EWSC started a new water reticulation project, it shut down all the old boreholes. Why is it so difficult for the water utility to rehabilitate the old boreholes that it closed?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I think that that is a technical question. There could be reasons the utility company decided to close those boreholes. It could be that they were contaminated or they did not have enough water.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated in his response that the whole Eastern Province has challenges with water supply. Lundazi has not been spared. I want to find out if the ministry has considered bringing a dredger to remove the weeds that have covered most of the rivers, thereby reducing the amount of water available. That has affected the people of Lundazi and Chama.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, the issue of weeds in the rivers in Lundazi has just come to my attention. I will pass on the information to the substantive hon. Minister so that the ministry can look into it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, in his first response to the question, the hon. Minister indicated –

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order pursuant to Order No. 71 of our new Standing Orders.

Madam Speaker, it is the tradition of this House to be courteous and to praise hon. Colleagues when they do something well. Is the hon. Member for Chinsali in order to remain quiet and to start asking questions as if nothing happened in his neighbourhood?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: Madam Speaker, we did a double kwapu in Nakonde.

Madam Speaker, is he in order to not praise us and congratulate Hon. Mubanga and Hon. Mutati for a job well done?

Interjections

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: Rigging!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: We have won two by-elections for the first time in Muchinga Province.

Is the hon. Member for Chinsali in order to not praise his neighbours, Madam Speaker?

I need your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I am sure that the hon. Member for Chinsali wanted to give his congratulatory remarks, but he was so taken by the question that he wanted to go straight to the business of the day. Since the hon. Member has been reminded, I am sure that he will use his discretion to either congratulate the victors or not.

The hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development is seated in front of the hon. Member, so I am worried about his security there.

Laughter

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security has done well to remind me. Allow me to congratulate the United Party for National Development (UPND) for winning the by-elections in Nakonde.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe: Uli mwaume sana!

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, in the same vein, allow me to condemn the UPND cadres who stole a ballot box in Chirundu.

Laughter

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, allow me to also congratulate the independent councillor …

Interjections

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukosa: … who emerged victorious over the ruling party in Chirundu because it was not easy, considering that that is the constituency where the hon. Minister of Education hails from. It is very embarrassing for the hon. Minister, and he needs to work hard.

Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister mentioned that the ministry plans to expand the water reticulation system in Nyimba, which will cost about K30 million. Then, he indicated that the ministry is going to implement the project when the funds become available. Is it possible for him to indicate to the people of Nyimba when the money is likely to be available? Is it going to be this year, next year or in 2026?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, as I mentioned in my statement, I cannot commit to any date, but that is an active project. As soon as the funds are made available, we will provide the required service.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that I just came from Nyimba. The area is receiving water for only two hours a day, not the seven hours that was reported to you. Nyimba has a reservoir of 500,000 cu m of water against a population of over 50,000 in the central business district (CBD), meaning that the water is not enough. I agree with the hon. Minister that the new water tanks should be placed at a higher level. Looking at where the tanks will be placed and the distance from the pumps to the reserve tank, does the hon. Minister have plans to give us an additional four new industrial boreholes apart from the two that we are talking about? The two boreholes have already been provided through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and we need an extra four. Can the hon. Minister give us four more industrial boreholes so that we can carter for the people of Nyimba and stop the problem of erratic water supply in the district? People queue up at filling stations twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week to draw water.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I have a list of tanks, their capacity and the hours that they are supplying water. The average works out to be 6.7 hours. I will give an example of the Airstrip area. Approximately 3,000 people are connected to the water supply and water is supplied to them for about eight hours per day. The tank at the hospital supplies water to seventy-two beneficiaries for about eight hours per day. At the prison, 352 households are connected to the water supply and water is supplied for six hours a day. Samora Machel township has 2,700 households connected to the water supply and water is supplied for six hours a day.

Madam Speaker, the request for additional boreholes will be looked into. I will pass on the information to the ministry. Since we are going to drill many boreholes throughout the country, I am sure that Nyimba will be accommodated.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I encourage the hon. Member for Nyimba to engage the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation. The hon. Minister is trying to explain and answer the question, yet the hon. Member already has answers to his own questions. That will not help us and the people of Nyimba. So, hon. Member for Nyimba, please, engage the hon. Minister because you want water to be supplied in your constituency.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Madam Speaker, I think that last year, each constituency, including Nyimba, was allocated some boreholes. However, in some areas, the contractors who were given contracts to drill the boreholes did not do so. I want to find out whether those contractors were paid in full. They have failed to execute the mandate that they were given.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. You are dressed in white and black, and those colours go well together.

Laughter

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I do not have information as to whether the contractors who were contracted were paid or not, and the status of those boreholes.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Mulenga (Kalulushi): Madam Speaker, just last week, the hon. Minister of Health reported that there is an outbreak of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) and Influenza. I think that a month ago, this Parliament was told that there was an outbreak of cholera in the Eastern Province. Nyimba, like many other constituencies, is facing many challenges in terms of water. Is the Government figuring out measures to improve water supply soon? All the answers that the hon. Minister has given are focused on the future, but we have a crisis now. We have an emergency. Is the Government thinking of investing in water bowsers now so that people can have safe drinking water and water for cleaning, especially that we have a crisis involving influenza, COVID-19 and cholera?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, the solution for the future that I talked about is that there is a Drought Response Plan already in position, and all the areas that are affected by drought will soon be attended to.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, LANDS AND NATURAL RESOURCES ON THE CARBON MARKETS AND TRADING IN ZAMBIA: OPPORTUNITIES AND CHALLENGES

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 10^thJuly, 2024.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

MsMabonga (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, in accordance with Order No. 209(a) and 210 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, the Committee considered a topical issue: Carbon Markets and Trading in Zambia: Opportunities and Challenges.

Madam Speaker, during its study, the Committee interacted with various stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions before it. To augment its findings during the deliberations, the Committee undertook a local tour of Lusaka Province and the Eastern Province. The Committee also undertook a benchmarking tour to Morocco.

Madam Speaker, considering the fact that hon. Members have acquainted themselves with the contents of the report, allow me to comment only on some of the salient issues that emanated from the Committee's engagement with various stakeholders on the topical issue.

Madam Speaker, for the benefit of the House, I want to begin by defining carbon markets and trading. Carbon markets are trading systems in which carbon credits are sold and bought. Companies or individuals can use carbon markets to compensate for their greenhouse gas emissions by purchasing carbon credits from entities that remove or reduce greenhouse gas emissions. From the outset, I want to state that carbon markets are a critical tool in our global effort to combat climate change and its adverse effects. In this vein, it is imperative that, as a nation, we understand and leverage the opportunities that exist in carbon markets to achieve our own climate goals.

Madam Speaker, one of the issues that the Committee wished to find out was the adequacy of the legal framework on this matter. The Committee was appalled to learn that the country does not have specific legislation to govern carbon markets and trading activities. The Committee is of the view that without a robust and specific legal framework, the country and local communities will continue to lose out on revenue. However, your Committee appreciates that the existing pieces of legislation only focus on forest carbon, and do not consider soil carbon as well as other forms of carbon.

Madam Speaker, as I already mentioned, your Committee undertook a benchmarking visit to Morocco, where it learned that Morocco has put in place detailed policies aimed at reducing carbon emissions. It also provided a roadmap with strategies to further reduce carbon emissions by 2050. In view of this, your Committee urges the Government to urgently enact climate change legislation to establish a comprehensive regulatory framework to effectively manage carbon markets and trading.

Madam Speaker, another issue that your Committee deliberated upon was the limited appreciation of the concept of carbon markets by the key stakeholders. It is disheartening to note that chiefs, technocrats and hon. Members of Parliament do not fully understand the concept of carbon markets and trading. This is due to the absence of clear information on carbon markets and trading, as well as how carbon emissions are calculated. As such, it has been a challenge to determine whether or not there has been a real reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government, through the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, embarks on a vigorous campaign to sensitise all stakeholders about carbon markets and trading projects as a matter of urgency. That will ensure effective participation from all communities, hon. Members of Parliament and technocrats. Your Committee further urges the Government to put in place a mechanism that will standardise the calculation of carbon credits and emission limits. This will help to determine whether or not carbon markets are effectively reducing greenhouse gas emissions in the atmosphere.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also bemoaned a lack of transparency in terms of proceeds acquired from carbon markets and trading projects. Your Committee noted that community members as well as other stakeholders are not privy to the total amounts of money that accrue from carbon markets and trading projects and how much is shared by all. Further, stakeholders lamented that the sharing mechanisms being implemented are neither fair, transparent nor equitable, such that individuals in communities are not directly benefiting from the projects. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government puts in place mechanisms that will compel implementers of the carbon markets and trading projects to be more transparent, more accountable and more flexible as a matter of urgency. This will allow participating communities to decide on the disbursement mode of carbon proceeds as well as the conditions attached. Your Committee further recommends that community members receive individual benefits, which will motivate them to protect the forest. This will also make them participate zealously in tree planting activities, which are crucial in the fight against climate change.

Madam Speaker, taking everything into account, allow me, on behalf of your Committee, to place on record the gratitude of the Committee to all stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions. Your Committee also wishes to thank you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for your guidance and the support rendered to it during the deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Thank you. Hon. Members, there is a lot of talking. Please, tone down and listen to the debate. We are not adding any value to the work we are doing if people are talking and walking about in the midst of the debate.

Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

MsMabonga (Mfuwe): Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to second the Motion. From the outset, I would like to say that I fully support the Motion. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the mover of the Motion, the hon. Member for Bweengwa Constituency, who is also the chairperson of the Committee, for the manner in which he moved the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I would like to add a few points to what he has already stated. Your Committee observed that there are some boundary disputes and encroachments. In some instances, traditional leaders were faced with political interference in the protection and preservation of forests. There is a growing desire among traditional leaders to own large forests due to the benefits that are associated with that. Therefore, your Committee recommends that the efforts of the traditional leaders and the Government in forest protection be harmonised. Your Committee also urges the Government to strengthen the capacity of forest guards and provide decent salaries for forest guards for better dedication and protection of forests.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also observed that there are low staffing levels of forest officers who are key players in forest preservation and sensitisation on carbon markets in local communities. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government recruits more forest officers as a matter of urgency. The officers will help to preserve forests and sensitise communities on the important role that forests play in carbon markets and trading.

Madam Speaker, the third point is on the loss of revenue by the Government. The Committee observed that despite carbon markets and trading projects having been implemented in the country for twenty years, the Government has not been receiving any revenue from them. There is poor management of carbon market operations in Zambia, hence the country has continued to lose colossal sums of money. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that a carbon market and trading industry be established immediately to serve as a centre of information, which will help to regulate activities surrounding carbon markets and trading. Your Committee further recommends that the Government considers introducing an appropriate carbon tax rate.

Madam Speaker, may I also take this opportunity to thank you and your office most sincerely for the support it rendered to your Committee. I would also like to thank all the Committee members and all the people who supported the Committee.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me to thank you once again, for the opportunity you have given me to make a few comments on the topic under consideration, which is on the opportunities and challenges in carbon trading.

Madam Speaker, I have argued before and I would like to state once again that the moment Parliament conversations are reduced to what our people can understand, they will value the importance of Parliament. The topic that the House is discussing today, sounds very scientific. If the House decided to carry out a survey today to establish how many people actually understand what it is discussing, –

Mr B.Mpundu: Namunomwinefye.

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, if we carried out a survey, –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, do not interrupt the hon. Member on the Floor. Otherwise, you will debate from outside the House.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I was trying to emphasise the point that the topic we are discussing today is extremely scientific, and failure to simplify it will render it irrelevant to our people and they will not buy it. The whole reason this report has been brought here to be deliberated on, is to simplify the conversation and make people understand that there are challenges and opportunities. I will quickly take the august House to page 7 of the report, where about four challenges have been identified as follows:

Lack of Transparency

Madam Speaker, the lack of transparency and how it affects the trading has been highlighted by the chairperson of the Committee.

Inadequate Regulatory Framework

Madam Speaker, the Committee has said that currently, the laws in Zambia regarding carbon markets and trading are not adequate. Again, this may not be a conversation for our people because they want to understand how they will benefit from this activity. The hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment is aware that the price being offered for carbon trading is US$10 a tonne. Now, if we told the people of Mwekera Forest in Kamfinsa Constituency to not carry out charcoal burning because we would give them US$10 a tonne of carbon, they would not even understand how that US$10 would be measured. Those are some of the things that have been highlighted in the report. Has the ministry gone to the forest areas to explain how the people who live there will benefit from the carbon markets and trading? We are trying to discourage people from doing what they normally do. So, is US$10 a tonne adequate to do that? That is what I expected the report to tackle. If we do not explain the value of carbon markets and trading to our people in monetary terms, I do not see us achieving what we need to achieve. The hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment needs to negotiate a better price for our people. If we are going to go to Kalabo and tell our people there not to farm because there is an opportunity for trading, they will ask us if the U$10 a tonne is worth getting, when they can venture into agriculture and make more money.

Madam Speaker, the rest of the issues that are in the report do not sound very controversial. The issue of prices for trading needs to be addressed. It is not just about asking people to do certain things and giving them a certain amount in exchange. When hon. Members of Parliament go back to their constituencies, how will they quantify the income that our people will get? How much will the people get if we convert US$10 per tonne of carbon? We need to simplify the issue for our people. I need to be able to ask farmers in Katoka Mema to not venture into charcoal burning because the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment has negotiated a better rate to give them. From where I stand, US$10 a tonne is not valuable to our people, and it will not make them suddenly stop doing what they are doing and convince them to venture into trading.

Madam Speaker, on page 8, the report has highlighted the opportunities of carbon markets and trading as follows:

Revenue Generation

Madam Speaker, Africa has the capacity to generate about US$15 billion in revenue. This is just a figure. It is an exaggerated figure that has to be simplified for the benefit of the people in Chifubu Constituency. If we do not simplify the conversation, we will end up having a situation in which the ministry will be pulling in one direction and asking people to venture into this activity, but unfortunately, the value will not be seen by the people. My challenge to the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment is to find ways to help our people understand the financial benefits of trading, apart from what has been highlighted in the report. I want to repeat the amount for emphasis and for those who have been lobbying for trading:US$10 a tonne. I am aware that many people are interested in the topic, and so much money has been mentioned, and that it will benefit our people. Could the hon. Minister promise the tonnes that someone could provide and the equivalent dollars that a person would get? If it is predictable, and our people understand the technical aspects of trading, it will be easy to bring them on board.

Madam Speaker, lastly, on page 3 of your report, there is a suggestion that carbon markets and trading will reduce greenhouse gas emissions. As I conclude, I want to pose another challenge to the Government. All the countries that have developed in Europe and Asia have had high levels of industrialisation, but they are telling African countries to not emit greenhouse gases today through industrialisation. They tell us that if we do not emit greenhouse gases, they will give us a certain amount of money. How is that affecting our ability to industrialise? We need to strike a balance. If we are not going to emit greenhouse gases, we must see the financial benefit for doing the opposite. There are so many conferences that all of us have attended, where we have been told to not do certain things because they are bad for the environment. However, when will Africa catch up in terms of industrialisation?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katotobwe (Luapula): Madam Speaker, let me add a few comments to the debate on the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources visa-vis the carbon market opportunities and challenges.

Madam Speaker, this is a technical subject, but I will give a simplified submission in the interest of clarity. The carbon market, in simple terms, is trading in carbon credits. Carbon credits, in simple terms, is selling or buying permission or permits to continue polluting our environment in order to offset the greenhouse gases that have been emitted. What has brought about carbon markets and carbon credits? They emerged from the triple climate crises which are adversely affecting our planet. The triple climate crises of climate change, loss of biodiversity and pollution. The world has found itself with the triple climate crises, which have been caused by a lack of, or should I say, non-compliance with environmental regulations through industrialisation and deforestation by the industrialised Global North. That is how the problem started, and that is why we are here. Historical polluters have now shown up offering some financial gain to continue polluting and damaging the environment.

Madam Speaker, Zambia has a negligible carbon footprint in the environmental degradation we currently have. Yes, to make progress, there must be a solution to the malaise, which adversely affects Zambia because the triple climate crises are transboundary. Now, we are being given little funds for us to start sequestering land forests in order for our friends to continue polluting the environment. As I said, climate change is transboundary so it will still affect us.

Madam Speaker, I will use a simple global concept called climate budget. Zambia has a climate budget surplus. Our friends in the Global North, the industrialised countries, have climate budget deficits because they have exhausted their allocation. Under the global climate budget, each country is allocated money depending on its size, population and other factors. Each country is allocated a certain amount from a climate point of view. In the interest of climate justice, all of us in the Global South, including Zambia, are owed money. There is a climate debt that must be paid to us. Instead of getting carbon credits, the Global North must settle its climate debt to Zambia.

Madam Speaker, this is a technical subject. In the interest of our sovereignty, we must engage our Zambian scientists and technocrats to develop an approach for this matter. The Executive must show some respect to Zambian scientists and technocrats.

Madam Speaker, before I conclude, let me make it clear that what we must focus on is food sovereignty, renewable energy and industrialisation using our land, which has been left to us by our ancestors. We should do that using technology which is available and environmentally friendly. In conclusion, Zambia must remain amenable to ideas that will benefit its future generations and can stand the test of time. The future is an active deposit formed by combustion of the past and the present.

Madam Speaker, with those few comments, I have added my voice to the discourse on behalf of the people of Luapula Constituency.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. It is good to hear from the people of Luapula because they hardly talk.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity you have given me to add a word to this technical and difficult topic, on behalf of the people of Mufulira. First of all, allow me to thank the chairperson who moved the Motion, the seconder and the entire Committee.

Madam Speaker, I would like to add to some of the points that the earlier speakers raised. Allow me to quote the report regarding the challenges that the carbon market is facing in Zambia and indeed, in all the developing economies. On page 7, under failure to calculate carbon emissions because of the lack of expertise, the report says:

“Failure to Calculate Carbon Emissions

The Committee was informed that the lack of technical capacity contributed to the failure to accurately measure emissions, especially in complex sectors like transportation. Due to the failure to accurately measure emissions, some stakeholders labelled carbon markets as a ‘false solution’ to climate change. This was because in their two decades of implementation, carbon markets have not reduced carbon emissions but rather encouraged organisations like oil companies to continue production. The ENI Oil Industry, an Italian company was linked to the COMACO project but had continued to increase oil production and making huge profits, while buying carbon credits.”

Madam Speaker, on page 8, under the challenges regarding land tenure and access rights for displaced communities, the report says:

“Land Tenure and Access Rights for Displaced Communities

Stakeholders observed that carbon markets and trading project-imposed restrictions on land and forest use. This was because areas allocated to carbon market projects adhered to the restrictions, thereby potentially hindering other economically beneficial activities such as agriculture, infrastructure development and plantation forests expansion.”

Madam Speaker, as we consider letting our country participate in carbon markets and trading, we need to question the motive behind this.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, why are you talking to one another across the Floor, even calling one another? This is a House of order.

Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, we need to question the motive behind this subject globally. The industrialised economies have continued to expand industries without considering the damage being caused to the climate. However, they are now coming to us who still need to industrialise, asking us to keep our trees and forests and to simply sit and wait for a pay out to come. When are we going to industrialise? When are we going to build infrastructure? The land tenures under trading can be thirty years, for example. That means for thirty years, we have to watch the land, and we cannot uproot anything or build infrastructure on it. However, the pay-out for preserving that land is not commensurate with the money we could earn from conducting activities that can be beneficial to our economy. So, the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment should question how we are going to participate in trading without hurting our own capacity to grow our industries and factories and increase production.

Madam Speaker, another aspect that has come out of the report is the lack of transparency. The communities where some of the carbon trading projects are taking place have bitterly complained about the lack of transparency. They do not even know how the benefits are calculated. All they see are pay cheques. Sometimes, the benefits are calculated in kind. When they were trained, they were told that they would benefit from carbon trading. The Committee travelled to the Eastern Province and Lusaka Province. It found that community benefits from carbon trading were boreholes, a classroom block and a clinic. That infrastructure is what we are also putting up using funds from our National Budget. We are drilling boreholes from our own internally generated funds, as a country. So, why should we say that a community is benefiting because a company involved in carbon trading sank boreholes or built a classroom? We are able to do that ourselves. We must get bigger benefits from that trade. The report mentions that huge sums of money; US$3.2 million and US$12 million, have been given to the communities participating in carbon trading. Those huge funds should have transformed the infrastructure and the economic well-being of the people. How do you spend US$12 million but people still get water from boreholes? How do you spend US$ 3.2 million on a community yet people still ask for classroom blocks? That is why the complaint of the lack of transparency is genuine.

Madam Speaker, the ministry has a lot of work to do in that area. The cry for a legal framework is very timely because we do not have the legal framework to guide or regulate what is happening in the carbon market. Therefore, the ministry has a big task to execute; the law on carbon trading is needed. Further, we need to build our own capacity because according to the report, the people who assess carbon credits and prepare the contracts and agreements for the communities to sign come from outside the country. The communities complained about that. Without our own technical expertise in the Government and in the ministries, our people will continue signing agreements that they do not understand. One of the recommendations in the report is that before communities sign agreements, the Government must provide legal expertise. However, the expertise we need is beyond legal. We need technical knowledge to calculate carbon emissions and carbon credits. We need to have that kind of manpower. Without it, we will be seeing people flying in and lodging at a hotel for one week, producing a document and giving us the quantities. "This is your carbon credit, here is the money," and off they will go. So, the ministry has a big task not just to develop the legal framework but also to build capacity in our people and to advise and lead us. Based on the report, the forestry sector has the potential to raise revenue equivalent to US$5.6 billion. However, we cannot raise that money without our own expertise. Those people from outside the country will just come to mislead and cheat us on the calculations, but when we have our own people, we will understand the numbers better. The Ministry of Green Economy and Environment has the potential to become an income-generating ministry, such as the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and many others. However, we have to be ready to walk the course on our own. We need human capital and laws in place.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, I want to adopt part of the submissions by the hon. Member of Parliament for Luapula and the hon. Member of Parliament for Mufulira as mine. I have read the report, and I commend your Committee because it did not support or disagree; it just gave comments on the matter.

Madam Speaker, I had the privilege to superintend over this matter during my tour of duty at the Ministry of Tourism. There is a Western-centric view of the trading policy. You will discover that carbon emissions are not just in Africa. The big guys, the major players in terms of carbon emissions, are not even members of the Conference of the Parties (COP28). However, they come to Africa and tell us that we should not industrialise. Instead, we should allow them to emit carbon into the environment and then they will pay us. That is creating continuous dependency in Africa.

Ms Mulenga: No, ukutwipayafye.

Mr Chitotela: We went to Morocco on a benchmarking tour. That was demeaning because Moroccans have said at international fora that they are not African but Arab. It was demeaning for an African Government to go there. This subject is not just about the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment but also about the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, the Ministry of Transport and Logistics and the Ministry of Energy. Today, Zambia is crying about underdevelopment. Last week, we adopted the international agreement on the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Industry. However, with the implementation of the policies on carbon emissions, Zambia will continue to be dependent on Western countries.

Madam Speaker, I do not know if it is the nature of our education or the environment we find ourselves in, we are told that nothing good comes from Africa, and that only things developed by the Western world are good. Westerners will dance with our chiefs and say, “Do not encourage agriculture. We want to come and trade with you.” By the way, the report has cited a lack of transparency in carbon markets and trading. How can there be transparency when the beneficiaries do not understand things? I hope that the hon. Minister is listening. He has attended conferences on this subject and has seen the behaviour of our Western friends when dealing with carbon emissions. When the conversation is critical, the Westerners frustrate all the Africans so that they leave, and then they remain to make decisions on behalf of the whole world. That is why I call such policies “Western-centric theories.” They are not good for Africa. We need to be cautious and look at things that suit the African environment.

Madam Speaker, I want to come back home. What do we, as a country, want to benefit from carbon trading? That brings me back to the big issue of the stockpiles of ivory at the Ministry of Tourism. When elephants die from natural causes, Western countries tell us to not sell our ivory but take care of it and provide security. They tell us to do this and that. The world trades but tells us not do that. They come to Africa and classify the mukula tree as an endangered species, and advise us to not sell it. In order to sell it, we must get permission from the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES). Many African Governments believe that and say yes to that arrangement. That is Western-centric. Westerners do not want anything good that can give money to Africa for it to become independent. They will not allow us to trade. They come up with policies to inhibit our growth, and programmes that hinder our development. Unfortunately, as Africans, we receive such programmes and start dancing because they come from our Western brothers.

An hon. Member interjected.

Mr Chitotela: It is not you, my brother.

Madam Speaker, carbon trading promotes injustice among the under-developed countries. It is an injustice by the West as it does not want us to develop. Western countries want to continue emitting greenhouse gasses. Go to Europe and see the level of industrialisation compared with what is in Africa today. It is an insult to the integrity and the wisdom of Africans for countries such as Zambia to talk about trading. We must stand up and say that we will not accept it. We will stand on the foot of development. We must stand up and compete on the international market. The West should not continue dumping things on us.

Madam Speaker, when the former hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment appeared before the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources, he said that the country has signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) and so many billions of dollars will come to us. I told him, “Hon. Minister, hold on. You need to understand the West.”

An hon. Member interjected.

Mr Chitotela: I am just citing an example.

I told him that the West would come up with something too good to be true to lure his support. It would come up with something too good to be true, and he would think that it would come tomorrow. Anything that looks too good to be true must raise an alarm. It must ring a bell in our minds, and we should not accept it.

So, Madam Speaker, I do not know whether I am supporting this –

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, this very important point of order that I am raising is on the Government Deputy Chief Whip.

Madam Speaker, this House is about to adopt a report of your Committee, a very important Committee report that affects many rural constituencies. When I look to your right, I see that 99 per cent of the hon. Members seated there are from rural constituencies. Will this House be in order to adopt the report, when all the hon. Members on your right have no understanding of what we are talking about?

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, by practice, at least one or two hon. Members from your right should have risen to debate this very important Motion, ...

Interruptions

Mr B. Mpundu: ... but none has indicated to debate.

Are we going to be in order to adopt the report, when they do not understand anything?

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, do not rise on points of order based on assumptions. The fact that there has been no indication does not mean that the hon. Members are not familiar with the subject matter.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I am making a ruling.

I have observed that we need to research a lot on this subject because it is new. I can tell from the debates that you are not going deep enough. So, please, conduct some research and understand the subject because it is a new area. I am looking forward to hearing from the hon. Member for Nyimba because he has been in this field for some time now. We will see how well-researched he is and how much he understands the subject.

The hon. Member for Pambashe may continue.

However, as you continue, I understand that it is good practice for a gentleman to button up his jacket when he stands up to debate.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: He is my newly-acquired cousin.

Laughter

Ms Mulenga: The stomach.

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member continue.

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, he has also taken in a bit of carbon.

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: Ba Chitotela mangeni naimwe.

Hon. Members: He is a carbon trader.

Mr Chitotela: I understand, Madam Speaker. It is the new cousinship. I have taken note of the cousinship between us.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, let me say that today, Zambia is striving for development in agriculture, mining, industrialisation, transport and communication, to mention but a few. Therefore, we need to strike a balance between carbon trading, carbon emissions and the development needs of our people. We must pay attention to what, we as a country, require to achieve. Are we going to sacrifice the environment? Or are we going to sacrifice development? We must call out our brothers from the West and tell them to look at Africa as an equal partner in the global development. That is the only way we shall have peace, equality and a just society.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, we need proper workshops for us to understand the concept of carbon markets and trading.

Madam Speaker, I am looking at the bench where hon. Ministers sit. I want to appreciate hon. Sylvia Masebo for being among the hon. Ministers who fought the organisation called the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wilf Fauna and Flora (CITES). She is the only Zambian who fought for the continent to get benefits from our natural resources. The other person was from Zimbabwe. Trading should not discourage us from industrialising our nation. We can, and we will be able to buy the same carbon, if we industrialise our nation. Countries that are industrialised, like Germany, buy a lot of carbon because they …

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Menyani Zulu: ... produce a lot of greenhouse gas emissions.

Madam Speaker, yes, we have no legal framework to deal with carbon trading matters, and as a result, we are losing a lot of money. The Ministry of Transport and Logistics has a role to play in this area. All of us pay the carbon tax because it is in our statutes. However, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning does not know where he invests the money from that tax. That is the problem. As a country, we have already started trading. Everyone here buys carbon when we pay the carbon tax through the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA). That is what the Germans are doing in Africa. The problem is that there is no transparency. What happens in carbon trading is that an agent in Europe or the United States of America (USA) trades carbon in African countries, but we do not know how much he or she charges for it. If you read the report, you will find that we are given 55 per cent from a transaction, but the amount is not stated. That is the problem. We need to know the specific amount from which we get 55 per cent. No one in Zambia, including the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment, understands how much money the people involved in trading charge per tonne. The bigger the tree, the more tonnes it produces. You may wish to note that a big bamboo tree can produce a tonne of carbon. Do they pay for that? Let me pick an example of Chipili, where we have big trees–

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I raise this point of order pursuant to Order No. 71 in our new Standing Orders on relevance of speech. My point of order is on the hon. Member of Parliament for Nyimba.

Madam Speaker, from page 16 to 22, the report has stated the challenges of the subject-matter. These issues will then be considered in the Action-Taken Report. I am wondering what the hon. Member is debating. He has brought in Germans who are polluting the environment and trading, things that are outside the report.

Madam Speaker, is he in order to confuse himself and digress from the subject we are discussing? If he does not know what to debate, will it not be good for him to just keep quiet?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Nyimba was giving examples. He was discussing the lack of transparency in the whole process. That is what I heard him say. Let us listen to him because he has been in this field for some time. I recall encouraging hon. Members to learn something from him. So, let us listen and allow him to educate us.

You may proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, I understand. The hon. Member was an hon. Minister of Tourism at one point and he did not do what Hon. Sylvia Masebo did. So, he is upset because I mentioned Hon. Sylvia Masebo –

Madam Speaker: Avoid debating yourselves. You have been guided.

You may continue.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, in the first place, us going to Morocco for benchmarking was not right. We should be looking at countries that are benefiting from carbon trading, such as Brazil. Brazil is giving European countries and the USA a tough time for them to pay what is due to it. Africa is the lungs of the world, and as the lungs, we should get what is due to us. The West should give us what is due to us. I know that the report has stated that there are challenges at the community level. Moreover, we have not benefitted much from carbon trading.

Madam Speaker, Nyimba is an exception. Hon. Members were in Nyimba, and they will agree with me that for the last five years or so, areas that had no schools or health facilities now have that infrastructure. People may not understand when I say that having a borehole in a community is a plus for people who did not have water before. Nyimba is a dry area. So, if carbon trading gives us a borehole, then it is a plus for us. However, are we content with a borehole? We are not. We need mechanised water systems other than what we have been given by the carbon traders.

Madam Speaker, let me give practical examples of companies that I know. The Community Markets for Conservation (COMACO) and Bicarbon Partner (BCP) trade in carbon. How much are they contributing to communities? I can tell you that COMACO is investing in my district. I have tangible evidence of that. However, I have not seen much come from other companies that have been operating in the district for some time. Therefore, we, as a country, need to do more. The hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment needs to sit down and look at this issue.

Madam Speaker, the policy managing carbon trading in Zambia is the Zambia Wildlife Act. I have forgotten the year, but I think that it is 2008 or somewhere there, if I am not mistaken. We are letting game rangers manage trading. That is how it is at this time. So, what have we been doing in the last ten years? People started trading in 2014 or 2015. What did administrators then do about it? What has the current Administration done for the country to benefit from that market? There is no need to blame one another. The previous Government failed to manage carbon trading, and I am seeing –

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

Mr Menyani Zulu: I hope that my brother is not failing on this as well. As of today, we do not have a policy on the subject, meaning that we have failed. We need to move forward.

Hon. UPND Members: It is coming.

Mr. Menyani Zulu: It will never come if we continue saying that it is coming. This is a very important business that we need to trade in. If we do not take advantage of the situation now, we will keep losing out.

Madam Speaker, the Government of Brazil now tells Westerners that it will cut down 20,000 ha, for example, for farming. Then, it calculates how much money it would gain from farming that portion of land, and tells trading investors to give it the money equivalent to what it would have earned from farming on that land. That is what Brazil is doing.

Madam Speaker, as a continent, we have attended the Conference of the Parties (COP) COP26, COP27 and COP29, but we were duped there. The West promised to give us US$20 billion to be invested in carbon trading. However, how much money has been released? Zero. The reason is that we, as a continent, are not co-operating; we have different agendas. So, the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment and the hon. Minister of Tourism should sit down at the African Union (AU) and sort out the problem. At the Pan-African Parliament (PAP), we have a problem because the hon. Ministers who sit at the AU –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, you can wind up. Your time is up.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Okay, Madam Speaker, sorry about that.

Madam Speaker, if the hon. Ministers at the AU had agreed on this issue, we would have moved forward. Now that they have not agreed at continental level, our nation has been affected.

Madam Speaker, I thank you, but my time was very short.

Laughter

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I would like to admit that this is a very strange topic to us in Africa, including myself.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, having admitted that, I think, it is wrong to have the conversation about carbon trading from the money end. We are preoccupied with gains that are not even there, as rightly pointed out by Hon. Katotobwe. People come to buy carbon credits to get permission to emit carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Emitting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere depletes the ozone layer, which reduces the levels of oxygen in the atmosphere. From my Grade 9 environmental science class, the atmosphere has 78 per cent hydrogen and 21 per cent oxygen. The other gases account for the remainder. If that is the case, I am yet to talk about carbon offsets, it means that carbon credits are a sort of environmental injustice by the haves to the have-nots due to industrialisation. I have realised that those who have developed to some level want to dupe us. In Bemba, we say “ukutuzembaika,” which means duping. They come to us and say, “Allow us to be emitting carbon dioxide in the atmosphere so that we deplete the ozone layer. Then, you will be keeping the trees for us as we continue doing that.” We already have a problem with fossil fuels, plastic pollution, ocean ice and many others. Trading is not going to add value to the environment because it is only speaking to one thing; letting emissions of carbon dioxide go on while we keep trees. That means trading is also creating a mindset of not utilising our natural resources.

Madam Speaker, I have in mind the Kyoto Protocol and the Paris Agreement on Climate Change. If you look at how those agreements were tailored, you will see that they were tailored –

Interjections

Mr Fube: I am expressing myself. You did not stand to debate. So, let me speak.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, restrict yourself to the debate.

You may continue.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, those agreements are tailored to protect the interests of the West. Africa is resource-rich in terms of natural resources. One of the issues that we have talked about is forest ownership and the use of land for agriculture. The conversation should shift. Instead of talking about foreign protocols and agreements made in Paris, we should be talking about what time we should burn our grass. We should protect ourselves by burning bushes and many others. I have observed that in my village, even if a person does not burn grass, it will dry up and add value to the soil. We are grappling with soil erosion and soil fertility, but we have shifted the debate and preoccupied ourselves with ifyabene. When I say ifyabene, I mean that which does not concern us. Carbon credits and carbon offsets are for the Western world; they are not on our agenda. We are still at the infancy stage. At this stage, we are supposed to be looking at how to venture into conservation farming or agriculture and how to take care of our environment ecologically. That is what we are supposed to be talking about. The agenda for the big guys who buy carbon is not for infants like Zambia, in terms of development.

Madam Speaker, the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) talks about economic diversification. One area it has identified is agriculture. In this House, we always argue about the distribution of fertilisers. We should collapse the current debate and instead talk about how to preserve our grass. How can we preserve our bushes for our benefit or for the production of food? When we preserve them, we are assured that oxygen levels within Zambia will be controlled.

Madam Speaker, my mbuya from Nyimba wants us to believe that carbon trading is good because it raises money. However, this conversation is just going to leave us poorer. The West should develop ways to deal with climate challenges. The report talks about opportunities and challenges of trading and carbon markets, but the people of Chilubi have not seen any opportunities in those issues. Carbon offsets are managed by foreigners. How many of us are dealing in carbon offsets?

Mr Menyani Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister –

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Is the hon. Member for Chilubi in order to insinuate that he has not seen the benefit of trading, when he has never traded in carbon? How can he see the benefit?

Madam Speaker: Maybe, by way of guidance, hon. Member for Chilubi, please, we do not debate ourselves. Our Standing Orders do not allow us to impute ulterior or wrong motives. So, just debate and let us see how far you will go.

You may continue.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I am obliged to you for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, when I was talking about opportunities and challenges, I was trying to drive certain points home. In case the hon. Member of Parliament for Nyimba does not know, Chilubi has many forests. We have Mutimba, Luena and many other forests. Speaking for the people of Chilubi, I would not love to trade in carbon credits or carbon offsets because of the reasons that I have given. Carbon trading contributes to the depletion of the ozone layer and reduces the oxygen in the atmosphere that God has given us. I would not like to participate in it because I do not want to go and face my creator as a person who championed injustice against the environment which God created.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, on behalf of the people of Chilubi, I am against carbon trading.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I think that we should research this subject because I know that sooner or later, there will be legislation that will brought before the House, which we will have to enact. If we have only basic knowledge, we will not be able to do justice to that legislation.

The Minister of Green Economy and Environment (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to thank you sincerely for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources on Carbon Markets and Trading in Zambia: Opportunities and Challenges.

Madam Speaker, allow me to also thank the chairperson, the vice-chairperson, as well as the entire Committee for its work on this important report. I also wish to acknowledge all my hon. Colleagues who have debated this report, including Hon. Kang’ombe, Hon. Katotobwe, Hon. Mwila, Hon. Chitotela, Hon. Menyani Zulu and Hon. Fube.

Madam Speaker, I have taken note of the many concerns and contributions contained in their debates and now wish to respond.

Madam Speaker, as the Government, we have taken note of the recommendations of the report of the Committee as well as the views expressed by the hon. Members during the debate. In this regard, I agree with the Committee that the carbon market has gained momentum globally since its inception around 2005, following the Kyoto Protocol. It is true that the carbon market has also evolved from a purely compliance market at its inception to include the voluntary market, which arguably, is enjoying a significant share largely due to its flexibility and broader stakeholder participation. Lately, the evolution has been accelerated by the adoption of the Paris Agreement on Climate Change in 2015, which led to the commencement of another stream of the compliance carbon market popularly referred to as the Article 6 Mechanism, as it is provided for under Article 6 of the Paris Agreement.

Madam Speaker, let me indicate from the outset that the Government is committed to promoting and facilitating the smooth functioning of the carbon market in the country. That is in order to ensure the integrity of the market in contributing to global greenhouse gas emission reduction and to guarantee that the country, particularly our local communities, benefit from this innovative financing mechanism. That is why in 2006, the Government put in place the Designated National Authority (DNA), an institutional framework comprising experts from relevant Government ministries and departments, following the commencement of the carbon market in 2005. My ministry is the secretariat of the DNA. Over the years, we have continued to strengthen the capacity of the DNA, as well as to refine its procedures and processes to respond to the extremely fluid carbon market. In particular, and as noted by your Committee, the Government has been very active in the last three years beginning with the formulation of Statutory Instrument No. 66 of 2021 on the management of forest carbon stocks under the Forests Act No. 4 of 2015. In addition, in order to respond to the requirements of Article 6 of the Paris Agreement, initially in December 2022, my ministry issued the interim guidelines on the handling of the carbon market and trading in Zambia. This was closely followed in 2023 by the issuance of Part 1 of the Carbon Market Framework (CMF) for Zambia. Both the interim guidelines and Part 1 of the CMF for Zambia provide clear guidelines for carbon project developers and the general public on the required standards and formats of the project concepts and proposals.

Madam Speaker, the intentions of the Government under the carbon market can be summarised in the following three broad objectives as follows:

maximise benefits that both the Government and local communities can derive from the carbon market by ensuring a fair price per tonne of carbon traded;

provide clarity on the procedures and processes both at the local and global levels to ensure a common understanding and enhanced transparency; and

ensure a clear and predictable benefit-sharing mechanism which guarantees communities and local project participants their fair share of benefits while enabling project developers or investors to recoup their investment and get a reasonable mark up to ensure the competitiveness of Zambia on the global carbon market.

Madam Speaker, allow me to now make brief comments on the summary of submissions made by witnesses as reflected in the report. On the observation that the carbon market in Zambia is in its infancy and not well-developed, as it focuses on emission reduction activities, mainly conservation of forests, as I indicated earlier, the carbon market globally started in 2005, following the entry into force of the Kyoto Protocol. By 2006, a year after the commencement of the carbon market at global level, Zambia established the DNA, which commenced the reviewing of carbon projects, with the first project registered in 2008. Therefore, it is not entirely accurate to state that the carbon market is in its infancy in Zambia, as the country has moved with the market from its inception.

Madam Speaker, as for the observation that the focus of the carbon market is on emissions generated from forest conservation, that is true, and I will give more information about it. It is important to note that Zambia enjoys a high potential of reducing emissions largely from the land use sector, particularly from the forestry and agriculture sectors. While globally the energy sector is the one with the highest potential for emission reductions, Zambia’s energy sector is dominated by hydro-power. As you are aware, hydro-power is by and large clean energy with minimal emissions to be reduced. In addition, our industrial base is also negligible and therefore does not offer potential for reducing emissions. However, with the new mechanisms, especially under Article 6 of the Paris Agreement and the development of new methodologies, other sectors and areas, including the waste sector and the soil carbon sector, are becoming increasingly important.

Madam Speaker, on the lack of transparency by project developers, resulting in communities not fully understanding all the details of the transactions, creating potential for exploitation, the Government is aware of the issue. However, while some project developers may willingly withhold information from beneficiaries, it is also true that the complexity and abstract nature of the carbon market makes it difficult for some stakeholders, particularly local communities, to grasp all the intricate technical details. I totally agree with you, Madam Speaker, that as Members of Parliament, we must research these issues deeper. In this regard, my ministry has been and will continue educating and raising awareness on the carbon market with the communities.

Madam Speaker, let me now reflect a bit on the challenges of the carbon market in Zambia as outlined in the report. On the finding of the Committee that there is absence of a specific regulatory framework, I wish to confirm that, indeed, that is a challenge, and the Government is conscious of it. In this vein, we are formulating legislation on climate change, and the Bill has now reached an advanced stage and will soon be brought to the House.

Madam Speaker, let me conclude by saying that we have taken note of all the concerns, and we shall make use of the positive recommendations of your report. With those remarks, I support the adoption of the report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank all the hon. Members who have debated the Motion. I also thank the seconder of the Motion, Hon. Mabonga; the Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, Hon. Kang’ombe; the Member of Parliament for Luapula, Hon. Katotobwe; the Member of Parliament for Mufulira, Hon. Mwila; the Member of Parliament for Pambashe, Hon. Chitotela; the Member of Parliament for Nyimba, Hon. Menyani Zulu; and the Member of Parliament for Chilubi, Hon. Fube.

Madam Speaker, let me also thank the hon. Minister for taking note of the recommendations from the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources. Allow me to request the hon. Members of Parliament to be in the forefront in respecting our environment, because I heard some of them debating and disrespecting our environment. I think that we must not do that as leaders. The people we lead must learn from us. So, it is very important that we understand that respecting the environment is very important. Drought and climate change are real in the world today. We are losing almost 12 million ha through desertification, and, so, we must work together to address the matter. I know that climate change is very complex, very scientific and very technical, thus we must work extra hard as hon. Members of Parliament to research more to understand the topic fully.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Chilubi, are you going out or sitting down?

Question put and agreed to.

_______

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE LANDS TRIBUNAL (Amendment) BILL, 2024

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3 – (Insertion of section 3A)

The Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Mr Muchima): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3, on page 4, in lines 1 and 2 by the deletion of subclause (3) and the substitution therefor of the following:

(3) A complaint, application or other document required to be filed under this Act shall be filed at the principal registry or a district registry.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses4, 5 and 6ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL, 2024

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Chairperson, it is a procedural point of order. We have just moved from the Lands Tribunal (Amendment) Bill, and I can see the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources here. Now we are on the Bill dealing with finances, but I have not seen the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning here. So, whose Bill are we passing? Who is acting as the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning? Is it the Leader of Government Business in the House?

The Chairperson: Her Honour the Vice-President is the Acting hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Clause 2, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments.

The Lands Tribunal (Amendment) Bill, 2024

Report Stage on Wednesday,17^th July, 2024.

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments.

The Supplementary Appropriation Bill, 2024

Third Reading onWednesday,17^th July, 2024.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Madam Speaker: The question is that there will be no tea?

Laughter

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1634 hoursuntil1430 hours on Wednesday, 17^thJuly, 2024.

____________

UPGRADING OF THE MUYOBE/MACHA HOSPITAL ROAD TO BITUMINOUS STANDARD

387. Mr Munsanje (Mbabala) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

whether the Government has any plans to upgrade the Muyobe-Macha Hospital Road to bituminous standard;

if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, the Government will consider upgrading to bituminous standard the Muyobe/Macha Hospital Road in future workplans once the Treasury secures the required funds.

Madam Speaker, the upgrading works will be considered when the Treasury secures the required funds.

Madam Speaker, as indicated at part (b) of the question, plans will be considered when the Treasury secures the required funds. The Government recognises the importance of the Muyobe/Macha Hospital Road, as it services a very important health facility providing care for the people. However, due to the current fiscal constraints faced by the Government, the road cannot be upgraded to bituminous standard. Consideration will be made once the Treasury is able to utilise the required resources as the fiscal position of the Government improves.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), will consider rehabilitation and maintenance of the road to motorable standard through the Feeder Roads Programme. The RDA has plans to construct crossing points at Muyobe, which usually floods during the rainy season, making the road impassable. The scope of works has been determined and the cost is estimated at K3 million. So, works will commence once funds are released.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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