Thursday, 11th July, 2024

Thursday, 11^thJuly, 2024

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

PRESENCE IN THE PUBLIC GALLERY OF PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM MIDDLE PARK SCHOOL IN LUSAKA DISTRICT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from Matero Middle Park School, in Matero, Lusaka District.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

PRESENCE IN THE PUBLIC GALLERY OF PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM LUKEM SCHOOL IN LUSAKA DISTRICT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from Lukem School, in Makeni Villa, Lusaka District.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

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RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED ON 26^TH JUNE, 2024, BY HON G.G. NKOMBO, MP, MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT, ON MR L. SIMUMBA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR NAKONDE CONSTITUENCY, FOR MAKING STATEMENTS, WHILE DEBATING, THAT HAD NO CONNECTION TO THE MOTION THAT WAS BEING CONSIDERED ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon Members, you will recall that on Wednesday, 26^th June, 2024, when the House was considering the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Mr Kephas Kampamba Katongo and Ms Eva Jhala to serve as Members of the Judicial Complaints Commission (JCC) and Mr Jack Kalala to serve as a Member of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) Board, and Mr L. Simumba, hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde Constituency was debating, Hon G. G. Nkombo, MP, Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, raised a point of order.

In his point of order, Hon. G. G. Nkombo, MP, inquired whether Mr L. Simumba, MP, was in order to make statements, while debating that had no connection to the Motion being considered on the Floor of the House.

Hon Members, in his immediate response, the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker reserved his ruling in order to study the matter. I have since studied the matter and will now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, Standing Order No. 139 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, requires an hon. Member who wishes to raise a point of order to cite the Standing Order, law on privilege of hon. Members, rule of procedure or practice that has been allegedly breached.

Hon Members, a review of the verbatim record of Wednesday, 26^th June, 2024, reveals that Hon. G.G Nkombo, MP, did not cite the Standing Order, law on privilege of hon. Members, rule of procedure or practice on which his point of order was based. In that regard, the point of order did not comply with the requirements of Standing Order No.139(3), and is, therefore, inadmissible.

Hon. Members, I have on several occasions provided guidance to the House on the need to cite the relevant rule, law, privilege, practice or procedure that has been breached whenever a point of order is raised. You are, once more, reminded to cite the relevant Standing Order, law, rule of procedure or practice breached whenever a point of order is raised.

I thank you.

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URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

MR KANG’OMBE, HON. MEMBER FOR KAMFINSA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND NATIONAL PLANNING, DR MUSOKOTWANE, ON INVESTRUST BANK EMPLOYEES

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me to thank you, once again, for the opportunity to direct an urgent matter without notice at the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, I wish to draw the attention of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to the issue relating to a bank or a financial institution called Investrust Bank Plc that is 74 per cent owned by the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines - Investments Holdings (ZCCM-IH) and 25 per cent owned by private entities. He informed the nation that steps had been taken to transfer performing loans and various parts of the bank to the Zambia Industrial Commercial Bank (ZICB), which shows that there is a willingness to resolve some of the challenges that Investrust Bank has been facing. Unfortunately, the bank under discussion, Investrust Bank, has over 350 workers, whose fate is unknown.

Madam Speaker, the 350 Zambian citizens are dotted across the country. Is the Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in order to not assure the over 350 workers that their employment status will be restored, considering that there are steps to transfer assets to the ZICB?

Madam Speaker, for the benefit of the public, the ZICB used to be Intermarket Bank, a public institution. When the bank could not perform correctly, the Government took steps and transformed it into the ZICB. Why can the Government not do the same to Investrust Bank to ensure that its workers are paid off or retained?

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the over 350 workers, I submit.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, I suggest that you file in a question to address the issue you have raised concerning the 350 workers across the country who were working for Investrust Bank.

MR CHITOTELA, HON. MEMBER FOR PAMBASHE, ON MR MWIIMBU, HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY. ON RIOTS IN LUAPULA PROVINCE.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, my urgent matter without notice is directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, yesterday and the day before yesterday, Luapula Province experienced many riots in which private and public properties were destroyed. The fracas started from Chiliyapa Market and there were serious running battles where private and Government properties could have been damaged. The other day, it was in Bahati Constituency in an area called Senema, where an old women’s home was ransacked and she was burned and killed. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security has been quiet and has not come to this august House to assure us on the steps the Government is taking to maintain peace and security for and on behalf of the people of Luapula Province and Zambia in general.

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, I suggest that you file in an urgent question so that the hon. Minister can clarify those issues. I have seen something in the paper, but you know, sometimes, it is difficult to rely on the information in the papers.

MR MUTALE, HON MEMBER FOR CHITAMBO, ON MR MUTATI, HON. MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, ON NETWORK FAILURE IN THE COUNTRY.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, my matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Science and Technology.

Madam Speaker, we have a challenge in this country, at the moment, in which network connectivity has become a problem. On several times, you have reminded the hon. Minister to come back and tell us when his ministry is going to erect the towers that he promised us. To date, he has not yet informed us about the much-needed towers. However, the problem is that of network connectivity, especially in rural areas.

Madam Speaker, nowadays, phones have become a very important means of communication. It gives so much room to our people, especially us who represent rural constituencies, to talk to our people when we are here. When people fall sick in rural areas, it is the hon. Members who help them when they call. It is becoming a challenge to talk to them. Even in schools where they are learning Information and Communication Technology (ICT), it has also become a challenge.

Madam Speaker, I need serious guidance on this matter.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, the issue of the towers is not new. I recall that, just recently, we were reminding the hon. Minister that the towers had not been erected in most constituencies. There was also a circular that was sent to hon. Members who were encouraged or urged to get in touch with the hon. minister to enquire on the progress of the installation of those towers.

Hon. Member, to make sure that the matter is debated on the Floor of the House, you can file in a question and the hon. Minister will explain how far the process has gone. I know that the issue of the towers that were promised, but have not been erected is a problem that most hon. Members are complaining about.

Mr Mutale: The towers are there.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chitambo, do you want to debate the issue?

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, what I spoke about was the network connectivity. Towers are already there, but the receptions in is not there. So, I needed the minister to give us some information as to what is happening because we cannot communicate to our people in rural areas.

That is what I raised, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, in that case, file in a question. I believe that the issue of towers and connectivity might be related. The hon. Minister will come to the House following the question that you are going to submit. He can explain and hon. Members will ask him questions.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

ON THE PROPOSED BAN ON THE USE OF FOREIGN CURRENCIES FOR LOCAL FINANCIAL TRANSACTIONS AND THE PHASING OUT OF CHEQUES

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, allow me to start by thanking you for according me the opportunity to address the issue raised by Hon. Anthony Mumba, Member of Parliament for Kantanshi, on the proposed ban on the use of foreign currencies for local financial transactions and the phasing out of cheques. This will not only just give me an opportunity to address the august House, but also the general public.

Madam Speaker, let me indicate that both matters pertaining to the foreign currency regulations as well as the phasing out of cheques are draft proposals. I repeat: They are draft proposals that are being presented to stakeholders for consultation by the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). At this point in time, I can, therefore, just provide broad remarks.

Draft Foreign Currency Regulations

Madam Speaker, on 20^th June 2024, BoZ began a consultative process regarding the draft Foreign Currency Regulation through the Public Private Dialogue Forum (PPDF). It is worth noting that consultations are also ongoing with associations. Once BoZ receives feedback from all stakeholders, it will then present the finalised draft regulations. It is, therefore, important to allow the consultative process to conclude.

Madam Speaker, however, may I take this opportunity to highlight the broad goals of the currency regulations:

to enforce the existing law and strengthen the implementation of the Monetary Policy that works by influencing quoting and pricing of domestic transactions in Zambian Kwacha; and

to enhance financial sector stability because dollarisation can be detrimental to financial stability as it gives rise to mismatches in the foreign currency assets and liabilities of financial institutions when there is a steep movement in the exchange rate.

Madam Speaker, it is important to note that these regulations are not stand alone, but are part of the broader policy measures that I have outlined in my previous Budgets that the Government has implemented to reform the economy. These measures have also included financial sector reforms such as the electronic balance of payments and the export tracking framework.

Phasing Out of Cheques

Madam Speaker, on the phasing out of cheques, let me begin by indicating that the notice currently circulating on social media titled “Public Notice on Phasing Out of Cheques” was not issued by BoZ.

Madam Speaker, while BoZ is, at the moment, discussing the possibility of phasing out cheques with stakeholders, it is important for the august House to note that the consultations are still on-going. The BoZ will accordingly issue a public statement once the engagements are concluded and a decision is made.

Madam Speaker, broadly, the phasing out of cheques is one of the key initiatives being pursued under the National Payment System Vision and Strategy 2023 – 2027. This is mainly on account of the significant decline in the usage of cheques over the past decade.

Madam Speaker, let me, therefore, reiterate that BoZ has commenced stakeholder consultations to allow for wider discussions and feedback. It will help in creating the necessary awareness of the intention of the regulations and to ensure that they work for all.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, I would like to assure the hon. Members of this august House and the public that the discontinuation of the usage of cheques as a payment instrument will be done in a co-ordinated and phased manner and in consultation with relevant stakeholders. The Government plans to take a more gradual approach with a timeframe of, at least, eighteen months.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the Ministerial Statement given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me an opportunity to pose a question to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning after delivering his Ministerial Statement.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the process is consultative and on-going. Would he attach a date when the consultations will be concluded in order to effect the proposed changes?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, there is no specific timetable that has been indicated. The process is ongoing.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the reassuring statement. Indeed, there is a need for wider consultation considering the failure of a similar undertaking by the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). We witnessed disastrous results following the signing of Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 31 and SI No. 51 on 7^th May, 2013.

Madam Speaker, the exercise that is being undertaken has so far sent shivers on the financial markets. The country’s levels of production are not so good for it to not have the United States Dollar (US$) as a means of exchange. I am grateful for the initiative to ensure that all copper proceeds be banked through BoZ. That, obviously, will answer many of the problems caused by the currency fluctuation. However, is the timing right for this exercise considering the number of reforms that are taking place at the moment?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I do not see any harm in the timing because consultations take place all the time. Not so long ago, this august House had many concerns about the movements in the exchange rate of the Kwacha. Part of the issues then was the fact that as the exchange rate depreciated, more people quoted their prices in dollars.

Madam Speaker, it was thought that if the trend of quoting prices in dollars is not managed properly, the situation would become worse. To the extreme, it would mean, for example, that if I went to buy tomatoes from the market and the seller requests me to pay in dollars, I must go to bureau de change to change my money from Kwacha to Dollar in order to make the payment. The same would have to happen if I were to buy spare parts. This sort of thing can drive its own process and lead to problems.

Madam Speaker, as Hon. Mumba has indicated, the fundamental problem was the fact that there was not sufficient foreign currency coming into the country.

Madam Speaker, the mining sector experienced some problems, but the good news is that it is currently operating well. Mopani Copper Mines is back to life after being in limbo for several years. Konkola Copper Mine (KCM) is also coming back to life. Further, a new mine will be opened next year, 2025, between Kasumbalesa and Chililabombwe District and it will be the biggest mine the country has ever had. Another mine will be opened in Mumbwa District.

Madam Speaker, the capacity for the country to earn foreign currency is increasing all the time. Even though dollarisation or the frequency of dollars was recognised as a problem, the consultative process was engaged bearing in mind that there is, on one hand, the envisaged improvements in the ability of the country to earn foreign currency.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chipoka Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to ask a question to the hon. Minister. What are the effects of the measures, to be particular, on the mining sector? Mining companies normally deal with foreign denominated currency, which is pre-dominantly the United States Dollar (US$). At the time they are making the purchases of various equipment and materials which are used in their operations.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, maybe, I also can use this opportunity to clarify one thing. There have been insinuations that this is a return to foreign exchange controls. Foreign exchange controls means that for one to acquire foreign currency and to make a transaction outside the country like importation, sending profits, and buying spares, one must get permission. It is nothing of the sort. Whether regulations should be passed in the manner they appear today, foreign exchange controls will remain outside the country. This means that should one get foreign currency, one is free to import anything or export profits without asking for permission. So, this is not exchange control at all.

Madam Speaker, to remind some of my hon. colleagues the United States Dollar (US$), as a currency, can circulate in a country, but foreign exchange controls can still be present. That means that the currency in circulation may be the US$ or any other foreign currency, but for one to make a transaction outside the country for instance to buy a car or anything, one may still need permission. So, it is not about exchange controls.

Madam Speaker, regarding the specific question of companies that often use foreign currency, the current draft regulations, as we continue to engage the stakeholders, provide exceptions for companies such as the one the hon. Member mentioned that use much foreign currency or those whose business in nature require that they invoice in US$. So, in the draft regulations, exceptions do exist. Part of the consultations is to ask the question: Are there any other sectors apart from those in the regulations that may be considered for expectations? I repeat: They are draft regulations; it is not yet Government policy. It is a draft and not yet Government policy.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, I am cognisant of the fact that economic dynamics do change and so does the fiscal policy on monetary policy. The hon. Minister may recall that on 10^th July, 2012, the late Minister, Hon. Chikwanda, introduced the ban of the usage of the United States Dollar (US$) in Zambian transactions. In their usual fashion, our hon. Colleagues in the United Party for National Development (UPND) condemned the move and called it illegal, continued to politicise it and called it names. Years later, on 5^th May, 2014, Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 33 was withdrawn. It is the same intervention that the hon. Minister has introduced in the economy. The Government is doing everything that it condemned in the past. Of course, by then the hon. Minister was not part of the UPND, but the Movement Multi-Party for Democracy (MMD). My question to the hon. Minister is: What has really changed?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I listened very carefully to what the hon. Member said my predecessor did; he introduced the regulations. What I have said this afternoon is that the Government has presented proposals as a draft; we have not introduced regulations.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I am happy that the hon. Minister has made a clarification on the issue of foreign exchange controls. However, my question is based on another sector that involves real estate business. Most of the people who deal in real estate usually quote their prices in United States Dollars (US$) and when they transact and go to make payments at the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) for property transfer tax, there is a lot of cheating. You find people undervaluing the values quoted in US$, they bring them down. I wanted to know from the hon. Minister the measures he is putting in place in the real estate sector so that people do not go back to the old system of transacting in US$ and then presenting contracts that have been signed in Kwacha?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, obviously, what we are talking about here is a little different in the sense that the hon. Member is now talking about people making arrangements to tax plan or avoid tax. That is the responsibility of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and I am sure it is observing the situation. Not just for that type of transaction, but tax compliance in general.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr A. Banda (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, my question is a rider to the one asked by my hon. Colleague from Kwacha. I know the hon. Minister has partly answered it, but am more concerned about the suppliers and contractors of the mines. Most of them are still transacting in Kwacha and because of the current fluctuation of the currency, they keep losing a get deal. The hon. Minister has said that there is provision for exceptions and I do agree. I also agree that the other traders like shop owners should be trading in Kwacha because they are ripping off people. However, concerning the contractors, will the hon. Minister, perhaps, give them an opportunity to continue trading in United States Dollar (US$) so that they do not suffer the exchange losses considering that 98 per cent of their goods are imported? At the same time the profit margin is ranging between 10 per cent and15 per cent because of the large number of contractors in the country.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, let me stress, again, that these are draft regulations. Those with specific concerns such as the one that the hon. Member has mentioned, can talk about and share their issues with BoZ.

Madam Speaker, the issue of the exchange rate movements and business is something that is found in many countries. So, there is no currency that is fixed to the others in perpetuity. The exchange rates move, but what we have seen in those countries is that it is not necessarily always the case that when the exchange rates moves then people must say that let us dump our local currency and use another currency.

Madam Speaker, if you went to South Africa a year or so ago, the exchange rate had depreciated significantly, but the tendency to invoice in US$ or any other foreign currency was not as extensive as it is here. Even when you look at Europe and the Americas, the exchange rates move, sometimes violently, but the tendency to move into that, obviously, – These are the sort of issues that BoZ is amenable to listen to and find a solution that works well for as many people as possible.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, I need to know more from the Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. He indicated that people would be getting permission whenever they were engaging in foreign currency transactions. I do not know how widespread the consultations are, but being in the airline and tourism industry, there are transactions that are done almost bi-weekly, especially in the airline industry. The billing cycle is bi-weekly. Are players in this market going to be getting permission every two weeks to make foreign currency transactions? Maybe, I may need a clarification because I may not have heard him well. I do not really find it necessary that airlines get permission every two weeks because some trade in foreign currency, and it is almost inevitable to avoid some of the transactions.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, it is very interesting because I remember one time when we were still first year students at university, somebody made an experiment, made a statement, then he went around, and asked everyone, if they listened to the statement, to which they agreed. He went on to ask, what was said in the statement, and it so happened that, there were so many different versions of what was claimed to have been said in the statement. “This is an example of that, Hon. Twasa –

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I never at any moment said that there would be permission required. There will be no permission required. All I said was that in the general framework of trying to avoid invoicing in US$ for every sundry, whether it is buying tomatoes, shoes, or an axe, is what BoZ is trying to discourage. Let us, therefore, invoice in Kwacha. However, what I also said was that as BoZ attempts to find an acceptable formula for discouraging invoicing in Kwacha, it does recognise that there are some business types that invariably make it more practical for the invoicing to be done in currencies other than the Kwacha. If the regulations go ahead and those exceptions are made, there will be no requirement for someone to ask to invoice in US$ on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis. Once the exceptions are made, they remain exceptions without the requirement of to and fro permissions. I hope I have answered his question.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Twasa indicated dissent.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kasenengwa, I hope you got the answer. If not, you can engage the hon. Minister on the sidelines so that he explains the situation.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning a question. The view I have taken is that what is being contemplated will result into some form of foreign exchange control in the country. I am grateful that he has come to the House when the Government is still at the stages of consultation and negotiation. In the event that the business sector, which is likely to be impacted directly by these proposed changes, does not agree with it or during negotiations says that the move will negatively impact doing business in Zambia, is the Government going to drop the negotiations without implementing them?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, first of all, just to, again, emphasise that there will be no foreign exchange controls. They were abolished in 1993 and are not about to come back. All those who lived during that time know the kind of inconveniences that members of the public were subjected to. You had to get permission to get dollars to buy a book or to go for a funeral in Zimbabwe. That can never ever come back again; certainly not under the New Dawn Administration.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of the consultations, that is what they are. If something is practical, it goes ahead, if not, it is dropped.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisopa (Mkushi South): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that the consultative process on the use of cheques may take up to eighteen months. I know that the Government wants to, probably, shift to electronic payments, bearing in mind that we now have challenges.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Chitambo raised an issue of connectivity. Electronic payments will, obviously, require network connectivity even in rural parts of the country. Would he share with us what has motivated the Government to engaging stakeholders to start the process of phasing out the use of cheques?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, again, to correct the hon. Member for Mkushi South, who did not hear me correctly, I said that the eighteen months is from the time a decision is made that onwards, no more use of cheques to the time when cheques will not be allowed at all. That is the eighteen-month period and is, therefore, the transition period.

Madam Speaker, regarding why the use of cheques is being phased out, I will explain. A cheque is basically like a letter. I have money with the Clerk, and I need to pay somebody in Mbala. I, therefore, give the letter to somebody in Mbala to go to my bank in Lusaka to get paid. The person in Mbala must travel to Lusaka, present the cheque, and be paid if the bank says it has money. If it does not have money, you are not paid and it asks you to take your letter back. Imagine the inconvenience. I am starting from the very period when we are still operating cheques. Sometimes one gets a cheque, and it takes about two weeks, which is seventeen days, depending on the location of the person, before it clears. This is inconveniencing, and over the years, BoZ has been implementing measures under the so-called payment system to remove this inefficiency. In removing the inefficiency, people have migrated to more efficient ways of exchanging payments.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mpika, there can only be one hon. Member standing on the Floor of the House. We will say “bye-bye” to you.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, people have been migrating to more efficient ways of exchanging money. These days, from ones phone, a person can issue an instruction to pay Mr ABC in Mbala, and it happens instantaneously.

Madam Speaker, under those circumstances, why should we continue with this old technology of presenting a letter in Mbala which must come back and take seventeen days? In any case, as the statement says, members of the public themselves have realised that the technology of cheques is inconvenient. So, they have been abandoning cheques. The number of times people use cheques now has dropped drastically. Since, legally they are still a form of payment, we are bound to keep the infrastructure that maintains those cheques. That is expensive. Therefore, now, that we have all agreed that there are more efficient ways of exchanging payments, it is time to say that we gradually drop this inefficient way of exchanging payments. For that, a period of transition is going to be provided.

Mr Sialubalo (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, the House is aware of the challenges that are faced by electronic transactions vis-à-vis cheque transactions. Not long ago, our hon. Colleague's phone was hacked, meaning that we have hackers as well as scammers in the electronic transaction business. Are those doing consultations going to be permitted to come to Parliament, through you Madam, so that we engage with them to allay the fears like the one I have mentioned?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, if it is the wish for hon. Members to be engaged on this, it can be arranged. It would be a good idea because many hon. Members represent rural areas. They should be able to present the situations that their people have and advise BoZ how to calibrate the new system.

Madam Speaker, in terms of safety, you will recall that with cheque payments, incidences of fraud were more prevalent whereas with electronic payments, frauds do take place, but are quite easy to detect and block. So, fraud is not a new thing; it was there under the cheque payment system.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, we have run out of time. However, I still see three hon. Members who have indicated to ask questions. Since they are just three, we can accommodate them, but they should, please, be specific so that we can move on to the next item.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, thank you for your generosity. I just want to be very clear. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said that there are conversations taking place and that the Government is in a consultative phase, meaning that there is no decision made at this stage. Even the consultative stage must have some objectives. Are the transactions in foreign currency only limited to invoices or are they also related to purchase orders? It is a purchase order that translates into an invoice. So, what exactly is the hon. Minister trying to achieve?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I think, this is part of the consultative process. I would suggest that the hon. Member finds time to visit BoZ and asks the questions. I am sure that it will provide clarity.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to ask a question. Most foreign financed mega construction projects are quoted in United States Dollars (US$). For example the Lusaka City Decongestion Project, the Kazungula Bridge, and construction of hydropower stations including the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway Project. What control measures will be put in place to enforce the foreign transactions in executing contracts that are quoted in US$?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, first of all, just to correct that notion. It is not all big contracts that are quoted in US$; some are quoted in Kwacha. It is precisely why a consultative process is taking place so that issues like the one the hon. Member raised can be laid on the table for people to come to an agreement on the best way forward.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, efficient mode of the transaction versus the lack of technological advancement in rural areas. Whilst we want efficiency in financial transactions, what about the remoteness that matches with the lack of enhancement of technology? For example, the people in far-flung areas like Ng’uma, …

Mr Sing’ombe: Kalabo!

Mr Miyutu: … Mwinilunga, we can mention them, where there is less technological advancement. This means the efficiency that the Government is looking for will be hard to achieve. What measures in those eighteen months of phasing out cheques, whenever it will take place, will the Government put in place to make sure that rural parts of the country match with urban areas in achieving the efficient mode of transaction?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in fact, the people in rural areas who the hon. Member for Kalabo Central is talking about never use cheques. From time immemorial, what they use are coins and notes. So, I do not think that this will affect them. His constituency and mine are neighbours and I also have some typical rural areas. The good news is that even in some remote places, cash payments are now coexisting with payments made via mobile money where there is a network. I have bought fish, cassava, and mealie meal in the villages using my mobile money. I think, it is something that people appreciate for both convenience and somewhere one can store value.

Madam Speaker, when one gets paid in cash, he/she will be worried whether one house is going to be on fire or whether someone will break into one house and steal the money? People now appreciate being paid through mobile money because it is safer. If somebody steals someone’s phone, one would not have stolen the money. It can still be retrieved. So, this technological development is a positive direction for our country.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

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MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL ECONOMY, TRADE AND LABOUR MATTERS ON THE RATIFICATION OF THE INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT FOR THE SOUTHERN AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY (SADC) PROTOCOL ON INDUSTRY

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters on the Ratification of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Industry.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Kolala (Lufubu): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mutelo rose.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mitete!

Mr J. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference, as set out under Standing Orders No. 209(1) and No. 210(f) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, your Committee considered the International Agreement on the SADC Protocol on Industry.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, let me state that your Committee is in support of the proposal to ratify the agreement as ratifying this protocol offers Zambia significant opportunities that will bolster its industrial sector through enhanced regional integration and co-operation. The protocol aims to harmonise industrial policies across member states, fostering a more cohesive and competitive regional industrial landscape.

Madam Speaker, as your Committee reviewed the agreement, several important issues came to the Committee's attention. Based on the concerns raised, your Committee made observations and recommendations, which are detailed in the report. However, I will highlight a few of them.

Madam Speaker, your Committee bemoans the unstable power supply Zambia is facing today, which has resulted in poor production and sale of goods and services. For the industrial sector to flourish, there is need to have a consistent power supply that supports the production of finished goods through value addition. Therefore, your Committee strongly recommends that the Government should urgently invest in the development of sustainable alternative energy sources. By investing in solar and other renewable energy options, we can ensure a reliable power supply that will support manufacturing, production, and other economic activities within the industrial sector.

Madam Speaker, the other issue relates to access to finance for micro, small, and medium scale enterprises (MSMEs) in Zambia. This issue is coupled with the high cost of statutory fees required to set up a company in Zambia. To address the issues, your Committee implores the Government, through the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise, to create an enabling environment for the MSMEs to enter and participate in the multi-facility economic zones (MFEZs) and industrial yards in which supportive infrastructure for production and manufacturing is already in place.

Additionally, Madam Speaker, the Government should also consider reducing the fees associated with company registration to make it more affordable for entrepreneurs and small businesses. For example, companies in the construction sector pay fees to both the National Council for Construction (NCC) and the Engineering Institute of Zambia (EIZ). Your Committee is of the view that in order to reduce the costs associated with company registration, there is a need for the Government to streamline the fee structure so as to eliminate hinder redundant charges, making it more transparent and easier to understand and administer.

Madam Speaker, additionally, for Zambia to develop a robust industrial base, there is need to enhance supporting infrastructure in key areas such as transportation, telecommunications, and warehousing facilities. Focusing on these key infrastructural areas will result in the creation of a more conducive environment for industrial growth and economic development.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also observes, with great concern, that Zambia has acceded to approximately 170 international agreements scattered across various Government departments at a significant cost to the nation. However, there is no unified monitoring mechanism to determine implementation at level of beneficiation to the republic. Therefore, it is crucial for the Government to put in place a systematic monitoring mechanism that will ensure effective implementation of the agreements. It will help the Government to fully understand and appreciate the benefits they bring to the country.

Madam Speaker, allow me to conclude by stating that your Committee supports the ratification of the International Agreements on the SADC Protocol on Industry and urges the House to support the ratification.

Finally, Madam Speaker, I thank the witnesses who interacted with your Committee for the valuable insights they provided. Gratitude also goes to you, Madam Speaker, and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later.

Mr Kolala: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, first and foremost, allow me to thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Joel Chibuye, the Vice-Chairperson of the Committee, in the manner in which he has moved the Motion.

Madam Speaker, like we have heard from the mover, I wish to also emphasise that this protocol is very important because it is aimed at harmonising industrial policies and enhance productive capacity across member-states. By doing so, it also seeks to create a diversified industrial base that can withstand global economic fluctuation and drive inclusive growth.

Madam Speaker, as we sat looking at this, many things were brought forth by all the witnesses who made submissions. The Chairperson of the Committee has talked about most of them while others will be highlighted by the people who have indicated to debate.

In seconding this Motion, I just want to talk about one particular thing; infrastructure. Without infrastructure to support the ratification, whatever we do will not work out. The mover partly touched on road, railway and air networks.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of the road network, the Government should have a deliberate policy that all the districts should be connected by, at least, bituminous standard roads. This will open them up and make it easier for raw materials from districts in rural areas to be transported thereby supporting industrialisation. However, without this, industrialisation will just be on paper because raw materials come from districts in rural areas. Particularly, I can relate to Lufubu Constituency, which is very rich in raw materials. However, because of the bad road network, the constituency is not participating fully in providing raw materials to grow industries in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of the railway sector, I think, we are very behind. As we get to ratify this agreement, we should know that it will push us to work on the rail industry far much faster. The rail industry is very significant when it comes to industrialisation. Without the rail industry being properly functional, it will be very difficult and costly to deal with the industrialisation in Zambia. As I speak, the Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL) is not doing too well. When you look at its infrastructure, it cannot even support 20 per cent of what is required for industrialisation, hence, your Committee urging the Government to quickly work on the railway system.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of the telecommunication network, I think that it is very bad in most rural constituencies where raw materials are supposed to come from. This should also be urgently worked on.

Madam Speaker, the chairperson mentioned the issue of power. However, in detail, we should also look at how the districts in Zambia should be connected to the national grid. If we fail to do that, industrialisation will be very difficult because power is required to extract the raw materials needed.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, the people of Lufubu second and support this Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Hon. Members, I notice that the list is getting longer. We do not have much time. So, as you debate, ensure that you do not repeat what has been said. If you can yield some time to the next hon. Member, it will be very helpful.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, it is a great honour for me to speak in support of the Motion on the Floor of the House, in representation of the people of Lunte.

Madam Speaker, industrialisation is a way to create jobs and businesses and to handle the problem of looking for jobs that young people in the country are going through.

Madam Speaker, when considering a protocol such as the one before us, one is always tempted to look at the advantages. However, I think, it is important to also consider the disadvantage as highlighted by your Committee.

Madam Speaker, starting from page 3 on which the demerits of the ratification are stated, the stakeholders submitted that if Zambia ratified the protocol on industry, it agreed to adhere to the standards and regulations outlined in the protocol. It meant that the country was legally obliged to implement the protocol’s guiding principles and could face consequences for non-compliance.

Madam Speaker, in Part III of the report, your Committee highlights in 7.1 the lack of stable power supply. Now, this is a problem. I think that the families who are affected by load shedding have made complaints. As a matter of fact, recently, we had people protesting at the ZESCO Limited Headquarters and some were arrested, but I hear they have now been released.

Madam Speaker, the issue of the lack of stable power supply now affects industry. This is what your Committee has observed. It now affects industry, which is the capacity of the country to create jobs that will absorb the young people who are looking for jobs. So, this is a serious problem. Therefore, this is where people must focus on the generation of alternatives and implementing workable alternatives.

Madam Speaker, in Germany, not long ago, a photovoltaic or PV energy system was constructed; a solar system generating up to 14 GW of power. That 14 GW can sort out the power supply challenge in our country once and for all.

Madam Speaker, 1 GW is 1000 MW. This is a solar system. As a country, we need to be spending time talking about such interventions. Since most of the people, particularly, in the current Government are pro-west, and Germany is a Western country, they can learn easily from it and bring the technology into our country where the sun shines even in June. I have been to countries where the sun, literally, cannot be seen. However, here even in June, the sun shines. So, if they bring such kind of technology here, by deliberate decisions, the Government will be able to solve the problem that is affecting everyone.

Madam Speaker, twenty hours of load shedding is very bad. However, it is even worse that mining companies and manufacturing companies cannot produce. It is even worse that we may be able to fail to adhere to the demands of this protocol and become ashamed, as a nation.

Madam Speaker, I also observed that we have a lot of coal in Maamba. I would be happy to hear the Government talking about ramping up the production of coal to produce more thermal energy so that we feed into the grid and do away with the problem that is now causing people to protest all over the place.

Madam Speaker, the issue of climate change began a long time ago. Some people argue that climate change began as early as 1760s. Others, in more specific terms, would say that in 1950 was when high temperatures were observed in the tropical oceans. When rising temperatures are recorded between latitude 23.5 degrees north and south, are in trouble. I think that a greater portion of the Pacific Ocean and a bit of the Atlantic Ocean are affected. That is what is known as the El Niño.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister came to this House and told us that the Government had observed the El Niño, but what followed were haphazard decisions that we cannot imagine the Government could make. Where are we now? Today, there is load shedding and no food in the country. For me, I encourage the Government to make sure that it is not haphazard in making decisions and not thinking anyhow, but logically. So, the temperatures that we record in the equatorial oceans should be taken care of. They have not begun today. They had begun around 1950.

Madam Speaker, when the Kariba Dam was being constructed, those who gave Zambia a loan to construct it knew that the Zambezi River would one day not have water. Those who were creating structures in aquifers in the Northern Province and other provinces knew that the rivers they cherish would dry up and the future generations would suffer. Therefore, as the Government makes the poor decisions to make people suffer in future, it should ensure that it creates alternatives.

Madam Speaker, my encouragement to my hon. Colleagues in the United Party for National Development (UPND) is that they should go to Germany and ask for the photovoltaic technology and bring it here. The sun is not about to go anywhere; maybe, until when our Lord Jesus Christ comes.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I thought the hon. Member would yield some time, but he used all the eight minutes to encourage people to go to Germany.

Laughter

Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for the opportunity that you have given me, on behalf of the people of Kanyama, to add a voice to the debate on the Motion laid on the Table.

Madam Speaker, ratification to this Southern African Development Community (SADC) protocol on industry is a progressive move. It resonates well with the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), in particular, the Strategic Development Plan No. 1, which is on economy transformation and job creation.

Madam Speaker, I just want to look at one of the articles that is embedded in the protocol, under Article 7. Allow me to read under promotion of small, micro and medium enterprises. The Article provided avenues that allowed developing programmes and policies to support the growth and operatives of small, micro and medium enterprise.

Madam Speaker, I want to connect this article to the demerits as outlined in the report. I read through the report, in particular point 7(ii), under Part III, which is on Limited Access to Finance, and it states the following:

“The Committee recommends that there must be one pool specifically meant for MSMEs to access incentives such as affordable loans with medium interest rates to support and protect local industries.”

Madam Speaker, I tend to differ a bit. If you look at the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise, it is provides for this. The loans are given to those who are eligible to get those loans, as long as they have all the requisite documentation that will facilitate them to get the loans.

Madam Speaker, the only challenge that I have with that is the fact that we seem to not have a vigorous monitoring and evaluation programme in which those who get loans are vigorous trailed and evaluated to check whether what they applied for is being undertaken. That is the challenge that I have. When you go to places like Kanyama, where I come from, you will notice that people decide to share the funds the moment they get them because of the lack of monitoring, which is very unfortunate. So, my appeal to the line ministries is that they ensure that as they are giving out the loans, grants or any financial support to our small scale industry, they design a programme that will enable them to follow-up the funds and if the funds disbursed are used in the correct manner.

Madam Speaker, on the other hand, I would like to thank the Government for having made efforts to ensure that the people of Kanyama are able to access the grants or loans. However, for them to compete or qualify on that market to get a contract that will given them a substantial amount of money, as you have heard from the mover of the Motion, there are statutory fees that are blocking this. I will give an example: In Kanyama, despite the large population, we give grants. However, to give K50,000, as guided in the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) guidelines, only a few get it. With the demand from the statutory fees required from the National Council for Construction (NCC) and the registration of a company, you realise that the K13,000 that you would have given, everything goes back to the Government, leaving those people vulnerable. At the end of the day, they stay back. So, as we are discussing this, that should be considered in a more equitable way.

Madam Speaker, otherwise, for me, the report is very progressive and it needs the support of every hon. Member of this House so that our small scale industry is boosted by the ratification of this protocol.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, without wasting much time, I will straightaway say that this is a very good report. I think, it is important that we support Zambia’s ratification of this important protocol.

Madam Speaker, this agreement comes at a crucial period. It is sad that the country moved towards industrial development many years ago, but because of inconsistencies in economic policies, we have lagged behind. In 1991, we had a vibrant industrial development plan. However, the idea of erasing even good policies that the previous Government was implementing every time there is a change of Government is the reason we have this problem today. The Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government would have built on the foundation laid by the United National Independence Party (UNIP) because it left a very vibrant industrial development plan in the country.

Madam Speaker, almost all provinces in the country had industries. We did not have this problem of youth unemployment. I spent most of my time in Ndola, and if one did not have any piece work in a day, it meant that one was just lazy because it had many industries. The textile industry and other industries were operating a twenty-four hour service. However, we have killed the industrial development programme.

Madam Speaker, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) or World Bank will not develop this country. It can only be developed by ourselves by coming up with home-grown economic solutions. I think that it is important that consistency is applied.

Madam Speaker, when there is a change of Government, the new Government should continue with the good policies of the previous Government and, maybe, do away with bad policies. However, the tendency in this country is that every time there is a change of Government, the new Government makes sure that whatever the previous Government did is discarded, including the good policies. That is our problem, as a country.

Madam Speaker, your Committee has spoken about the issue of unstable power supply. It is very sad that forty-five years after the Kafue Gorge Hydro Power Project was developed in 1977 by Kenneth Kaunda, no major investment in power generation has been put up in forty-five years. Are we a serious nation, surely? Meanwhile, there were increased economy activities in the mining industries. Mines were opening, industrial development and population was increasing, but from 1977, we only have Kafue Gorge Lower Power Station (KGL) after forty-five years. I believe that this is a sector that we can exploit fully as a country. We can also encourage incentives in this sector. We are giving incentives to the mining industry. Why do we not also incentivise those who are supposed to develop the energy sector? I believe that if we also provided incentives in the sector, the private sector would invest in it.

Madam Speaker, today, the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) and the Workers Compensation Fund Control Board (WCFCB) are financing the Ndola/Lusaka Dual Carriageway. Why cannot these companies also invest in the energy sector? I believe that the energy sector is a very lucrative industry. So, let us promote private investment. The Government must also continue to invest in the energy sector.

Madam Speaker, Ethiopia is building one of the largest hydropower projects in Africa to produce 6,000 MW.

Madam Speaker, I believe that as a country, while we promote private investment, we must also ensure that the Government plays a role in developing the energy sector.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I support this report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much for yielding some time.

Hon. Member for Nyimba, you may debate for four minutes, please.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I know that I will not do justice with that.

Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I support this report. It is very important to us as a country. In addition to that, before we even engage our hon. Colleagues, a good number of Southern African countries are developing, whereas we as a country, are busy trading. Whoever told the Movement for Multiparty Democracy (MMD) that the best way to grow an economy is by trading, killed this country. We used to manufacture wheelbarrows in this country, but today, we import wheelbarrows. What do we need to manufacture a wheelbarrow? We need a presser and a drilling machine. That is all. However, today, we have to import a wheelbarrow from China. What kind of people are we? What kind of education are we giving ourselves? It is not normal. We have engineers in this House, but we cannot manufacture a spanner or a wheelbarrow. What kind of people are we? That is where we have a problem. There are engineers who have doctorates, but we cannot even manufacture a simple pot. What kind of people are we? We are letting these jobs to be done by people outside the country. They look simple, but they are important.

Madam Speaker, in my past life, I was found in big truck manufacturing companies. Whatever we import labelled Bosch is not manufactured by Bosch itself. Bosch is a trading company. There are small companies dotted across Germany manufacturing such things. Why can we not do such things as a country? If we ask the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) for the money to come up with a mechanised farming system in Nyimba, we cannot be given, but instead spending it to buy buses in Lusaka. Everywhere you pass in Lusaka, it is dotted with minibuses bought by funds from the CEEC. However, how many people are we employing through that? What are we doing?

Madam Speaker, I am saying that in rural areas, we can identify sectors that can employ a good number of people, if only we remove politicking. The weakest attitude we have as a country is politicking. In agriculture, we do not need politicking. In industrialising this country, we do not need politicking. We need to look at the benefits of the country. Today, we are twenty to fifty years behind. Thirty to forty years ago, we used to assemble Toyota vehicles in the country. We were manufacturing trailers. We were assembling radios. However, the computers or whatever we have today were supposed to have been manufactured locally. However, someone wanted to change things and that is the reason we are where we are today. It is not too late.

Madam Speaker, when the people on your right sit in their Cabinet meeting, they can consult a simple man, a Permanent Secretary (PS) at the Ministry of Technology and Science, in the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government. He has a solution to this. I have interacted with him. A person who can come up with an idea has the solution to this problem. Let us not look at him as a PS. The man is sharp. He has an idea. This is the information I am giving them because I know that it is difficult for the members of the Ruling Party to go to the Opposition and consult. However, they can go and see the PS at the Ministry of Technology and Science

Madam Speaker, that is my contribution.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me, on behalf of the people of Chembe, an opportunity to say a few things on this important Motion on the Floor of the House.

Madam speaker, to start with, Zambia, in general, has ratified such protocols. Many times we sign these protocols, but we cannot see the benefits. Henceforth, in as much as we support the ratification of these protocols, we should always be looking at the positives of each protocol that we sign.

Madam Speaker, for example, we have signed protocols to do with trade. What are we benefiting from the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA)? Zambia has turned out to be a dumping ground for goods. We cannot enter their markets because we are not manufacturing. On that score, what will drive us to compete favourably with these protocols that we like signing is industrialisation.

Madam Speaker, what are the drivers of industrialisation? The main issue is that we need to look at is infrastructure, which we are doing. For example, in Luapula Province, despite having minerals such as manganese, etcetera, no industry can be built in Luapula because there is a power deficit in Luapula Province. Those mining in Luapula Province have to carry their manganese and take it to Central Province for processing. You can see the gap that is there.

Madam Speaker, the other thing that can drive the industrialisation that we are talking about in this protocol is human capital. Many times, we overlook the crafts people on the ground. Industrialisation starts from the people we see in Kalingalinga who are welding and doing all sorts of things. That is where industrialisation starts. Those people can survive even if they are not employed. They can feed into the industry. However, such people are overlooked. So, what I am trying to say is that if we do not look at the drivers of industrialisation, then we will not go anywhere.

Madam Speaker, the other thing that I want to talk about is on manufacturing technologies. We must make a deliberate policy of allowing people to import manufacturing technologies at a favourable rate. That is where we can kick-start our industrialisation. Failure to which, we will be creating markets for our colleagues as we have done in COMESA. Apart from hosting its headquarters, what is Zambia doing?

Madam Speaker, as I support this ratification, going forward, let us try to interrogate the benefits of the ratification of these protocols.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, I support the ratification of this protocol. As we ratify it, we need to protect local industries that have suffered at the expense of the foreign direct investments (FDIs) that have made money and externalised it.

Madam Speaker, in the transport sector, for example, we have regulations such as Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 35 that has been set up to protect the industry. It clearly states that 50 per cent of the business in the transport sector must be given to our people. However, this has not been actualised to accord our people business opportunities. We have seen that most foreigners have come in. We have also relaxed the law to the extent of allowing some foreigners to front people. This is where they use Zambians to register companies whilst those companies are being run by foreigners.

Madam Speaker, if you look at the block making industry, you will see that there are many Lebanese who are running the block making companies. However, when you go to the Patents and the Companies Registration Agency (PACRA) or other places, you will find out that companies purported to be run by Zambians are, in actual fact, being run by foreigners at the expense of Zambians. However, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprises has not stepped up its game to ensure that it protects local industries that are supposed to create employment in line with one of the goals of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP); Growth and Employment Creation.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise must be adequately financed to support the manufacturing industry, which is supposed to be the economic driver of our economic recovery in the country. The action will ensure that the industry is adequately funded and financed with loans at low interest rates to promote it, embark on the achievement of the 8NDP and create value addition and employment for our people. We need to step our game by making sure that we create investment funds to promote local businesses. As we ratify protocols, new investors who have heavy capital will come in and our local business people will not be able to compete with them.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I submit.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for granting me an opportunity to raise a point of order on established practice in this House

Madam Speaker, it is practice that business in the House takes precedent. That means that a Member of Parliament, like myself, should be in the House transacting business on behalf of the people of Lunte. Even an hon. Minister, like Hon. Dr Musokotwane, should be in this House transacting business on behalf of the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, look at the bench where hon. Ministers sit (pointing at the Frontbench). Why should Government hon. Ministers prioritise ward by-elections over government business? Is this the country we are going to have? Ward by-elections have attracted hon. Ministers who should be here transacting business. Look at the protocol that we are dealing with. It relates to industry and the hon. Minister, Hon. Mulenga Chipoka, is in Luapula for a ward by-election. Are the hon. Ministers in order to prioritise ward by-elections over transacting government business, which is important for the people of Zambia?

Madam Speaker, I seek your very serious ruling on this matter.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, I do not know where the hon. Members and hon. Ministers are. However, if you look around even on the left, you will see that there are some empty spaces, both for hon. Ministers and hon. Members. As you have rightly pointed out, parliamentary business takes precedence. I am only aware of the absence of the hon. Members who have asked for permission. About twenty-nine hon. Members have asked for permission and some have joined us virtually, and it was granted. So, I do not know who among those you are referring to. However, the most important issue is that parliamentary business takes precedence over any other business. So, both, hon. Members and hon. Ministers are required to attend parliamentary sittings without any excuse at all.

Hon. Members, it applies to all of us. Let us examine ourselves and see whether we are, indeed, attending parliamentary business or are in the House and representing our people sufficiently. So, it is up to all of us.

Hon. Member for Lunte, thank you for raising that point because, I think, we need to introspect on whether we really want to be in the House and transact business. As long as we have a quorum, business will go on. However, the sad situation is that the people of Zambia who elected you, hon. Members, to be in the House will not be represented. Is that what we want the people to conclude. It is a sad situation and it should not be encouraged.

Hon. Members, let us continue with our business.

Hon. Member for Pambashe, I notice that you are a member of the Committee. I want to give priority to the hon. Members who are not part of the Committee because, I believe, you sufficiently debated the issue in the Committee and came up with the report. So, you will be excused from debating.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you most sincerely for giving me, on behalf of the people of Zambezi East, an opportunity to debate the report of your Committee on the National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters.

Madam Speaker, your Committee’s report speaks about ratifying protocol. Of course, in other words, people call it a convention, a covenant or a treaty, but it is one and the same thing. Indeed, international protocols are very important to an economy, especially for a developing country like ours. Such a report is speaking to development of our industry. Therefore, for that reason, I support the report of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, what I just beg to differ with the submission from the hon. Member for Lunte is the manner in which he suggested that if we ratify such a protocol and do not implement or domesticate some of the provisions in it, there will be consequences. I beg to differ on that. I think, international law does not permit to go that route. Ratifying is one stage and domestication is another. Zambia, being a Commonwealth country where Commonwealth laws are practiced, there are two stages in domesticating protocols. The first stage is the one which we are doing here. We are not passing a law; there will not be an Act. Of course, later on if we elected, we could have an Act to ratify this protocol. Thereafter, if we wish to domesticate it is when we can go into the specifics of what is contained in the protocol so that we adjust our laws to conform to what the protocol is propagating or suggesting. It is in that order. There is no harm in us ratifying it because it is a stepping stone.

Madam Speaker, we are a developing country and belong to a regional organisation, the Southern African Development Community (SADC). This is one thing the hon. Member needs to know. The protocol was formulated by SADC member countries. So, it is important that we ratify it for the good of our regional grouping and belonging to the region. What remains is the next step of domesticating the details that are contained in the protocol by adjusting our laws. This is what he and I should be thinking about; looking at our laws and seeing what kind of benefit we can get out of this protocol. That is how it works. It is not a subject of debate in which we start pulling against each other. We need to revisit some of the reasons we come to debate.

Madam Speaker, I do not want to waste time by debating things in a different manner. The idea is to simply put it rightly why the House is debating this protocol. I want to correct the record. There are many protocols we sign, including trade, development, and human rights protocols.

Madam Speaker, the protocol we are debating focuses on trade and industry. It is a good one because it is a stepping stone. The nation and the region is grappling with the challenge of power deficit and many other challenges. So, this protocol brings in topical items that we can put on a table to find out means and ways of how –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, may you wind up. I requested that hon. Members take only four minutes to debate.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I thought I could expand those points just to make sure that some hon. Members speaking anyhow could learn something from it. However, I submit.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (on behalf of the Minister of Commerce, trade and Industry (Mr Chipoka Mulenga)): Madam Speaker, firstly, let me respond to specific points raised during the debate. The mover of the Motion made reference to the issue of registration fees charged by the National Council for Construction (NCC) and the Engineering Institution of Zambia (EIZ). I would like to let the House know that the issue is being attended to.

Madam Speaker, the seconder made reference to the need for infrastructure, especially with reference to inter-connecting districts with bituminous roads. Indeed, Government policy, but implementation is constrained by the lack of resources. Nonetheless, that is the route the Governmentwould want to take.

Madam Speaker, with respect to what the hon. Member for Chembe talked about that the protocols result in Zambia being a dumping ground, to mitigate that, the country needs to define what levels of engagement it wants with the outside world. If you listen carefully to the President’s engagements with the rest of the world wherever he travels, he defines four criteria in the levels of engagement that Zambia will now welcome:

affordable capital. I think, it is for the rest of the third world. On the international markets, capital is very expensive for the third world countries;

access to technology at the right prices;

beneficiation or downstream processing of the country’s raw materials; and

joint venturing. In this case, we would want people who would partner with the Zambian citizens in creating the industries.

Madam Speaker, I thought of responding to some of the issues raised by the various hon. Members. Generally, I thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity given to me to discuss the Ratification of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Industry.

Madam Speaker, the SADC Protocol on industry was approved during the SADC Council of hon. Ministers held in August, 2019. It was subsequently endorsed by fourteen heads of state in Government. By July, 2023, five SADC member states: Angola, Botswana, Namibia, Seychelles and Mauritius had ratified the protocol, with the agreement set for the protocol to take effect once two-thirds of the sixteen member states have signed and ratified it.

Madam Speaker, ratifying the protocol on industry will positively impact on Zambia’s industrialisation agenda as follows:

strengthen Zambia’s integration within the SADC region and facilitate the development of common industrial policies and regulations which would result in reduced technical barriers to trade;

lead to industralisation and development of competitive industries within the region;

attract foreign direct investments by creating a more favourable investment climate; and

create employment opportunities in various sectors including manufacturing, services and agriculture.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the SADC Protocol on industry is intended to promote industralisation and enhance competition in the country. In that regard, it is necessary that the report be adopted to ratify the SADC Protocol on industry. Ratifying the protocol is essential to foster diversified, innovative and globally competitive industrial bases facilitating sustainable and inclusive industrial development for Zambia and the region at large.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, allow me to sincerely thank the hon. Members who debated and supported this Motion; Hon. Kafwaya, Hon. Chinkuli, Hon. Mtayachalo, Hon. Menyani Zulu, Hon. C. Mpundu, Hon. Lubozha and Hon. Kambita.

Madam Speaker, I cannot forget to sincerely thank the Acting hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry for putting the icing on the Motion. I can only urge all hon. Members in the House to support this Motion.

Madam Speaker, lastly, I would like to thank your Office for the support that it rendered to the Committee whilst we were interacting with the various stakeholders.

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 68 - (Ministry of Tourism –K206, 177,299)

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing me to make comments on this Budget line allocated to the Ministry of Tourism.

Madam Chairperson, you have also been here with us and have heard how much the hon. Members have been complaining about the problem of human-animal conflict. We would like to hear from the hon. Minister now that he is getting this allocation, whether we should now have hope that he is going to address this perennial problem because, I think, it has become a daily thing that hon. Members have lamented about and is a matter that has left most of our people vulnerable in terms of food security.

Madam Chairperson, I will be very brief because we need to have a lasting solution to this problem. So, as we are appropriating money here, it is important that we, the complainants and people’s representatives, get the assurances from the hon. Minister. Yes, it is our responsibility to preserve the natural capital that forms our wildlife and is, therefore, very cardinal because it attracts a lot of foreign exchange (forex).

Madam Chairperson, our people who live near game management areas (GMAs) have had issues to deal with. So, in his wisdom, I wait to hear from the hon. Minister, whether out of the money to be allocated, he can constitute a taskforce, as earlier guided by the Hon. Madam Speaker, to ensure that we find lasting solutions to this perennial problem of human-animal conflict.

Madam Chairperson, if you go to Nabwalya and the Western Province, you would find out that the complaints are the similar. In addition to that, all the Urgent Matters without Notice that have been raised are on this ministry. So, we would like to hear from the hon. Minister, if he took into consideration the complaints of hon. Members, on behalf of their people, as he requested for the supplementary allocation to the budget that was appropriated to his ministry during the 2024 Budget.

Madam Chairperson, I await for the hon. Minister to speak to this, and if he had not thought of that perennial problem when he requested for these funds, he might as well vary the funds because we cannot be lamenting over the same issue without finding lasting solutions. So, for him to find solutions he needs resources to be dedicated to the challenge of animal-human conflict, which has cost people’s lives and has left some of our people vulnerable in food security at household level.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba): Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu for that valuable contribution.

Madam Chairperson, indeed, the aspect of human-wildlife conflict has been very topical on the Floor of this House and we, as officers in the ministry, have not been sitting idly, but have been seeking ways and means on how we are going to ameliorate some of the big challenges that our communities are faced with, especially those ones within the game management areas (GMAs).

Madam Chairperson, I must hasten to mention that the particular challenges have been precipitated by the current drought that we are experiencing, at the moment, in our country vis-à-vis animals walking kilometers in search for water and food. So, we as a ministry, by way of requesting for a supplementary budget is what it is doing to find a lasting solution. We will be able to sink a number of watering holes across the national parks and, indeed, supplement lucerne especially for rhinoceros as well as hay for some of the heavy browsers, which we have across the country.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to indicate to the House that one of your Committees proposed that Members of Parliament also go for a fact finding mission in many of our national parks across the country. I, therefore, want to report that on 15^th July, which is next week Monday, my ministry is proposing to finally induct your hon. Members honorary police officers who will help us manage particular animals in their various constituencies, especially those in our hotspots.

Madam Chairperson, further, as soon as the House adjourns, I will lead a team of my colleagues in the ministry and, indeed, select hon. Members to the various hotspots in which we will be sensitising communities on the dangers of having to agitate animals and living in areas that are prone to human-wildlife conflict.

Furthermore, Madam Chairperson, my ministry is also looking at ways and means on how we could setup camps in what we would like to call animal corridors. Obviously, this will be with the help of our colleagues from the Ministry, from the Vice President Resettlement department.

Madam Chairperson, I submit.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, just a reminder that yesterday, I indicated that according to Standing Order No. 171(4), debate on a Motion shall be restricted to only one hon. Member from each political party or grouping represented in the House.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Chairperson, this ministry needs money, but I know and thank God that something is coming up.

Madam Chairperson, my concern is that the ministry is also an income generating, not just a spending one. It is one that brings resources into the country. So, as I am contributing to this Vote, I just want to inform the hon. Minister, looking at the additional money that he has been given, and knowing the problem that we have, especially us who come from game management areas (GMAs) and those who come from national parks, that we do not have personnel and vehicles for his officers. I will give an example. In my district, there are four or five camps and no vehicles and so, people use motorcycles. Are we, therefore, seeing an improvement in the administration of the game officers that we have or even having the vehicles repaired by taking them for proper servicing? For instance, taking the Land Cruisers to workshops where they could be worked on to become better despite being charged millions. Do we also see the hon. Minister buying new vehicles for the officers so that they can easily make movements to and from places where there are challenges?

Madam Chairperson, it is sad that, today, the private owners managing game ranches only react when an animal, for instance, an elephant or a buffalo, is killed. However, when a human being is killed, no one reacts. In addition, there are instances in which one is found farming on their farm and one gets arrested because one is in the animal corridor. So, the private owners have ensured that our officers, both from the Zambia Police Service (ZPS) and from the Ministry of Tourism are compromised. It, therefore, takes the community to intervene in order to have them released.

Madam Chairperson, my other question to the hon. Minister is that from the money being requested for, are we seeing him employ local people? What happens is that two people are selected from Kanyama and sent to game reserves in Chama then to Nyimba as officers trained at Geoffrey Mukuma Paramilitary Training School (Sondela). They have little understanding about animals and so they cannot manage them. However, you find that the owners of the animals are school leavers who are not employed. So, do we see the hon. Minister changing the policy so that the people who know how to manage animals and have traditional training are trained professionally, thus, making it easy for them to manage the animals or are we seeing people from Lusaka City being taken to the park in Livingstone, Liuwa National Park, South Luangwa National Park or Kafue National Park?

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Sikumba: Madam Chairperson, Indeed, that is a double-burrowed question, but I will be quick. In respect to repairing motor vehicles, yes, indeed, I think that it is more administrative. I think that going forward what we have realised, as a ministry, is that we need to make national parks to become more revenue generating entities and as such they will be able to sustain themselves.

Madam Chairperson, with respect to buying vehicles, the ministry has had acquired –

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Sikumba: Madam Chairperson, before Business was suspended, I ended by saying that, yes, the ministry would repair vehicles that seem to require servicing and procure more vehicles, not entirely from this budget, but, obviously, with the help of the many partners we have engaged over time.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Vote 68 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

VOTE 80 – (Ministry of Education – K561,393,428)

Mr Sikumba (on behalf of the Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima)): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that K561,393,428 be approved in respect of Vote 80 – Ministry of Education as part of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2024.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 80 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 86 – (Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock- K390,382.325)

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Chikote): Madam Chairperson, I beg to Move that K390,382,325 be approved in respect of Vote 86 – Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock as part of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2024.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Chairperson, I commend the Government on the forty-eight. It will do, but I hope this money will be raised and distributed for the Sustainable Livestock Infrastructure and Management Project. Since the wording is too short, I wish the hon. Minister is talking about where we need to develop, especially water points that have dried up. If this money is meant for such infrastructure to manage or stock, I welcome it, and I wish that the money could be channelled to areas with many animals. In my district, there are many animals and I do not see such infrastructure. I wish with this, we could be given one, two or ten water points for our animals to survive, because this year, the situation is very bad.

Madam, I hope I have not misunderstood the words.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chikote: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for the proposals pertaining to infrastructure. This is where the hon. Member is talking about trying to put up water points for our livestock. Indeed, you wish to note that through the challenges the country is going through, the Government has put in place a number of interventions to make sure that it responds to the need for infrastructure that the hon. Member is talking about. The Government is committed to putting up these water points for our animals especially since the country has been hit by this serious drought.

Madam Chairperson, the Government is committed to making sure that all our livestock across the country is protected and proper interventions are put in place. We are also cognisant of the fact that we need to put up interventions to control diseases and this is one area in which we feel we need to move in as the Government to help the industry against outbreaks of disease. The Eastern Province is one of the provinces in which, I believe, a number of measures are being put in place to make sure that diseases are controlled to protect the industry.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 86 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

VOTE 92 – (Office of the President – Central Province – K2,348,233)

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that K2,348,233 be approved in respect of Vote 92 – Office of the President – Central Province as part of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No 1 of 2024.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is proposing the Supplementary Expenditure for Vote 92. Under that, we have seen under Headquarters, 9001 – Executive Office Management – Provincial Administration – K1,878,585 and under the District Administration (DCs Office), 9009 – Executive Office Management – District Administration -K469,647.

Madam Chairperson, we have no problem in supporting Supplementary Estimates to these offices, but our concern is the line of duty the officers that we are giving money to, like District Commissioners (DCs), who, as we speak – As you see hon. Colleagues and hon. Ministers today going for ward by-elections. Why should by-elections for a ward be a priority for the Government? The DCs are the ones who are acting as campaign managers in these by-elections using Government vehicles.

Ms Mulenga: Imagine!

Mr Kampyongo: So, we are supposed to put this money where it is due.

Mr Chaatila: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chaatila: Madam Chairperson thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise this serious point of order according to Standing Order No. 71.

Madam Chairperson, is the Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, Mr Kampyongo, in order to bring such assertions this time around? Has he forgotten that when he was hon. Minister of Home Affairs, and when there were by-elections during the Patriotic Front (PF) regime, District Commissioners (DCs) were everywhere distributing mealie meal and other essentials? I think, we need to be serious with our causes as hon. Members of Parliament. Has he got any evidence that under the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, there is any DC campaigning?

Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling on such kind of baseless accusations.

The Chairperson: Just cite the Standing Order, Mr Chaatila, that has been breached.

Mr Chaatila: Madam Chairperson, it is Standing Order No. 71.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Mr Kampyongo, I think, that is something that started way back.

Mr Kampyongo: That does not make it right.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I think that if we want to make changes to something, let us find a way of bringing up that matter so that it can be addressed. We do not have evidence to show that District Commissioners (DCs) are busy campaigning now, especially since we are here seated in the House.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Do we have evidence that all DCs out there are busy campaigning or that they are campaign managers?

I am sure the DCs have many duties that they have been assigned.

So, Mr Kampyongo, please, next time, just produce evidence to the House. You brought out something that the public listened to. Can you bring evidence to justify what you are saying that if I went to Shiwang’andu, would I find the DC campaigning? If I went to a certain constituency, would I find the DC campaigning?

Hon. Member, you may continue with your debate.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I wish my hon. Colleague would have also come with evidence of what he alleged was happening in the past.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: In the absence of that –

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo, I think, I was addressing the point of order that was raised about the DCs campaigning. So, let us try to provide evidence where we are supposed to so that we support our debate. Without that evidence, let us refrain from doing so.

You may continue with your question.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, well guided.

What I am saying, Madam Chairperson, is that let us appropriate money for intended purposes. When we give the DCs money, we are not saying they should get tempted to start participating in political campaigns. I will put it generally. Here, we can see that some of our hon. Colleagues and those in the Frontbench are not here, but are using Government resources.

Madam Chairperson, we are here to do a responsibility of checks and balances. When a Supplementary Budget like this comes, and we are able to see that some of our hon. Colleagues are using the same resources we are appropriating to their portfolio functions to engage in political activities, it is not desirable. Therefore –

Mr Tayali: Who told you?

Mr Kampyongo: I have been here long enough hon. Minister. So, let us respect each other.

The Chairperson: Mr Kampyongo, please, continue with your debate.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, if it was happening in the past and it was wrong, it should not be right even this time around.

Mr Mapani: You are not the one to tell us!

Mr Kampyongo: That is how it should be. I want to tell you that you can pretend to get those seats; we did the same, if you want to know.

Ms Mulenga: And lost!

Mr Kampyongo: And lost, we are here (on the left side of the House)

The Chairperson: Are you talking to Vote 92?

Mr Kampyongo: So, you can go and waste all your precious time as hon. Ministers –

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, are you talking to Vote 92 or you are addressing the hon. Members seated in the House?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I am talking about Vote 92 in which we are appropriating K248,233 going to the provincial administration. The activities I am talking about are happening in the provinces in which we are sending the money.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, when this money goes there, we expect that it should go to Government functions and, therefore, people such as provincial controlling officers who are going with the DCs to do political activities on the ground must not deviate it.

Madam Chairperson, as we approve the money as Supplementary Budget in addition to the 2024 Budget, it is important that we are assured that it is going to be prudently used because people are starving. The handouts you are giving them to win votes will just be for a day. When you leave after winning the ward elections, you will come back here, but people will still remain with their starvation. Let us be sincere and helpful to our people. This is what I am saying.

Finally, Madam Chairperson, I just want to urge the Acting Leader of Government Business to make it clear that when we approve the Supplementary Estimates, the money should be prudently utilised. There is hunger in most parts of our country and, therefore, people are looking up to the Government. The Social Safety Net Programmes that are meant to help our people must not be used as handout to make the people weak or entice people to give us the votes. Yes, it may work for now, but there will be time when the votes will not count.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Michelo rose.

The Chairperson: Order!

Sorry, I did not see the hon. Member.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, can I go ahead?

The Chairperson: Yes, you can go ahead.

Mr Lufuma: I would like to thank you for the opportunity to say something.

Madam Chairperson, I am not a lawyer, but there is a saying that “He who alleges has the burden of proof”. So, it is clear that the hon. Member there is just alleging. Therefore, I would like to assure him, the House and the citizens of Zambia that the money that has been appropriated in the sum of K2,348,233 will be used prudently and not a single penny will go to campaigns .

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Michelo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Michelo: Madam Chairperson, I wanted to rise on a point of order when the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu was debating, but I do not know if I can be allowed to proceed.

The Chairperson: We have passed that. I am sorry I did not even see your name on the spread sheet.

The Chairperson: Is it still relevant?

Mr Michelo: Yes, Madam Chairperson. It is still relevant and, I think, I can proceed, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, since we have already passed the debate and the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House has responded, we cannot go back. I am sorry about that.

Mr Michelo: Thank you, Madam. Well-guided.

Vote 92 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 98 – (Office of the President - Southern Province – K13,038,919)

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that K13,038,919 be approved in respect of Vote 98 - Office of the President - Southern Province as part of the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2024.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to debate.

Madam Chairperson, my first point is that I am at pains to understand whether this is a Supplemental Budget or a re-aligned budget. If it is any of the two, the Southern Province is one of the areas in an agro-ecological zone badly hit with climate change.

Madam Chairperson, when we peruse through the items that have been lined up Supplementary Estimates apart from the water resources with development, I do not know the meaning of the rest of the items and their significance in that particular province.

Madam Chairperson, I would have expected the Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to pay particular attention to these areas that are on high alert in terms of climate change. For instance, K80 million was allocated in the main budget and the K13,038,919 has been added as supplementary.

Madam Chairperson, I am at pains understanding where we are going to get the K17 billion that is from savings declared across heads. We have not been told which formula would be used whether to save and we are not sure whether the K13,038,919 is coming in form of savings going towards services that are going to help our people to alleviate the problems we have in there.

Madam Chairperson, we have a very big problem as a nation. Economics is about sharing the resources as needs arise. In this case, I know that even Central Province, is also another area that is badly hit by climate change. When His Excellency the President came to deliver his speech in this House, we were given an impression that there would be budget realignment and, therefore, I do not know in which form that budget realignment has come because it was supposed to respond to the adverse situation we have in the eighty-four districts although the number of districts keep on changing depending on which hon. Minister stands to speak. Today, we will hear that there are seventy-four, the other day, it will be eighty-five if it is Her Honour the Vice-President speaking. If it is the hon. Minister of Agriculture, he would say there are eighty-four.

Now, looking at this scenario, Madam Chairperson, the people of Chilubi would have expected seriousness so that the Supplementary Budget speaks to the needs and the gaps that have been caused by the climate problem we are faced with. Really, I do not know, but the House will forgive me. Maybe, it is because I was away for one week, but, really, I do not know what motivated this Supplementary. I do not know whether it is a realigned budget or a Supplementary Budget because to me, it is not speaking to the problems we are facing as a nation, especially on this province, that have been talked about.

Madam Speaker, very soon, the animals will be starving and all that. Even the money that has been allocated there is not going to answer when you look at what has been allocated at water resources management which I feel that the easiest we can do is to drill boreholes. In addition, when I look at the water table, it has even gone down futi. So, when you look at such, it is a differences issue. Let us not pretend to have solutions to the problems when we are not even scratching a problem on the surface because these allocations are not going to do anything to answer to situations.

Madam Chairperson, I would just like to end by asking the question: Where are the resources? Do we have other resources that we are going to bump into this particular province that will quell the problem that we have or we are depending on the K13,038,919 million supplementary that has been given to the province which is not even known whether it is being taken away or it is part of the savings or we will stick to the K80 billion. It is confusion after confusion.

Laughter

Mr Fube: So, Madam Chairperson, on behalf of the people of Chilubi, I am, really, at pains to understand this arrangement.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, fortunately, we, on your right, are not confused. We are quite confident and know exactly what we want.

Madam Chairperson, the funds are carryover from 2023 and are being used to ensure we take care of the problems we are facing today, especially in the Southern Province, because of the drought. It was very drastic. Therefore, the funds are allocated for that purpose. So, there is no confusion whatsoever.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 98 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 99 – (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – K14,642,140,000)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that K14,642,140,000 be approved in respect of Vote 99, Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure as Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure for the year 2024.

Vote 99 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Supplementary Estimates No 1 of 2024 reported and approved.

Report adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Madam Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and National Planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect hereto at a later date.

BILL

FIRST READING

The following Bill was read the first time:

The Supplementary Estimates Bill, 2024

Second Reading on Friday, 12^th July, 2024

_______

The House adjourned at 1739 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 12^th July, 2024.

____________

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