Tuesday, 25th June, 2024

Tuesday, 25^th June, 2024

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM ST. JOSEPH PRE. AND PRIMARY SCHOOL IN MUMBWA DISTRICT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and teachers from St. Joseph Pre. and Primary School in Mumbwa District.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

CONSTRUCTION OF COMMUNICATION TOWERS IN VARIOUS CONSTITUENCIES

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, on Thursday, 28^th March, 2024, the hon. Minister of Technology and Science made an undertaking to share with hon. Members of Parliament, detailed information on the progress made in the construction of communication towers in various constituencies.

In this regard, I wish to inform the House that the ministry has submitted a work schedule on the progress made in the construction of communication towers. The schedule has been distributed to all hon. Members electronically.

I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to study the schedule and liaise with the Ministry of Technology and Science on any queries that may arise therefrom.

APPOINTMENT OF MS SIBONGILE MWAMBA, HON.MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KASAMA CENTRAL, AS DEPUTY PARTY WHIP

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, lastly, I wish to inform the House that the Patriotic Front (PF)Party has appointed Ms Sibongile Mwamba, hon. Member of Parliament for Kasama Central, as Deputy Party Whip replacing Mr Jonathan Daka, hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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RULINGS BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR M. ANAKOKA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUENA CONSTITUENCY AGAINST MR J. E. BANDA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL CONSTITUENCY FOR DEFYING THE RULING AND DIRECTIVE OF THE SPEAKER ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have a ruling to render against Mr J. E. Banda, hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central Constituency on a point of order raised by Mr M. Anakoka, hon. Member of Parliament for Luena Constituency. As per our practice and procedure, a member who raises a point of order and a Member to whom the point of order is raised is required to be present in the House when the ruling is delivered. However, I am aware of the circumstances surrounding Mr J. E. Banda, MP, and I will proceed to render the ruling in his absence.

Hon. Members will recall that on Tuesday, 19^th March, 2024, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 312 and Hon. F. C. Mutati, Minister of Technology and Science, had just concluded responding to the question, Mr M. Anakoka, hon. Member of Parliament for Luena Constituency raised a point of order. In the point of order, he inquired whether Mr J. E. Banda, hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central Constituency and other hon. Members who joined him were in order to defy the ruling and directive of the Speaker. The point of order was based on the then Standing Order No.205 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders 2021, which provided for gross disorderly conduct.

In her immediate response, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker reserved her ruling to enable her to investigate the matter. I have studied the matter and will now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, by way of background, the events that gave rise to the point of order are as follows:

on Tuesday, 19^th March, 2024, before rendering a ruling on a complaint by Mr C. Andeleki, hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola Constituency against Mr J. E. Banda, MP, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker requested Mr J. E. Banda, MP, to go and stand behind the bar of the House. However, Mr J. E. Banda, MP, while walking to the bar engaged in protracted arguments with hon. Members on her right;
the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker then ordered the Sergeant-at-Arms to remove Mr J. E. Banda, MP, from the House. However, Mr J. E. Banda, MP, resisted his removal from the House by the Sergeant-at-Arms, which consequently created disorder in the House. This prompted the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker, to suspend Business of the House for ten minutes so that order could be restored;
after resumption of business, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker rendered her ruling and the House proceeded to consider the business of the day at exactly 1515 hours; and
when the House resumed to consider the business of the day, it began by considering matters of urgent public importance and subsequently, proceeded to consider Question for Oral Answer No. 312. It was at that point that Mr M. Anakoka, MP, raised the point of order under consideration. This was at 1550 hours, thirty-five minutes after resumption of business following the alleged misconduct.

Hon. Members, the House has been guided on several occasions, on the nature and function of a point of order, and when it can be resorted to. For the avoidance of doubt, I will, again, address this issue.

Standing Order No.140 (1) (a) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, provides that;

“(1) A Point of Order may be admissible if;

it is raised immediately after the alleged breach occurs.”

The erstwhile Speaker, Rt Hon. Justice Dr Patrick Matibini, SC., had occasion to rule on the issue of contemporaneity, in the case of a point of order by Hon. T. S Ngulube, the then Deputy Government Chief Whip and Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central Constituency (National Assembly Daily Parliamentary Debates of Thursday, 10^th December, 2020).

In rendering his ruling, the erstwhile Hon. Speaker stated as follows;

“… it is self-evident that a Point of Order must relate to a breach of the rules of the House at the material time, and should be raised contemporaneously; that is to say, soon after the alleged breach occurs.”

Hon. Members, from the foregoing, it is clear that a point of order must be raised contemporaneously. In this regard, I am alive to the fact that on the material day, the proceedings of the House were suspended for ten minutes due to the alleged misconduct by Mr J. E. Banda, MP. Notably, Mr M. Anakoka, MP, could not raise his point of order at the time that the alleged breach occurred, as the Business of the House was suspended and soon after resumption, the Presiding Officer was rendering her ruling. However, Business of the House was well underway, at the time the point of order was raised. On that basis, in line with the rules and procedures of the House, the earliest possible time that Mr M. Anakoka, MP, should have raised his point of order was, after the Presiding Officer had concluded rendering the ruling, but before consideration of matters of urgent public Importance. Therefore, the point of order is inadmissible for not being raised immediately after the alleged breach occurred.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, that notwithstanding, Mr J. E. Banda, the hon. Member of Parliament’s, conduct on the Floor of the House was offensive to, both the Office of the Speaker and the proceedings of the House, and breached the rules of parliamentary etiquette. Such conduct has the potential to demean the Office of the Speaker and disrupt the proceedings of the House and this is certainly an act of gross misconduct. Mr J. E. Banda’s conduct on that day was unbefitting of a Member and earnestly undermined the integrity, dignity and decorum of the House.

I, therefore, wish to seize this opportunity to remind hon. Members that the rules of parliamentary etiquette require hon. Members to debate and conduct themselves with civility and sobriety at all times. In this regard, hon. Members are not expected to engage in personal attacks or physical confrontation on the Floor of the House, within the precincts of Parliament or, indeed, elsewhere. Clearly, any resort to actions or conduct that results in the disruption of parliamentary business is totally unacceptable, and must be deprecated.

Hon. Members, I am cognisant of the fact that Mr J. E. Banda is not in the House because he is indisposed. Ordinarily, he ought to have been in the House after serving his thirty-day suspension. It is my sincere hope that during this time, he had time to reflect on his conduct and has reformed. I wish to urge him to always conduct himself honourably and desist from conduct that is likely to bring this House into disrepute and odium.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: That is what we are talking about. Hon. Members …

Laughter

Madam Speaker: … behaving in an orderly manner. I will move to the second ruling so that the hon. Members who are late can stand for a while.

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR R. K. CHITOTELA MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR PAMBASHE CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST MR B. KAMBITA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR ZAMBEZI EAST CONSTITUENCY, FOR THE ALLEGED USE OF UNPARLIAMENTARY AND DEMEANING LANGUAGE AGAINST HIM AND OTHER OPPOSITION MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Tuesday, 19^th March, 2024, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 312, and Hon. F. C. Mutati, Minister of Technology and Science, had just finished responding to a supplementary question, Mr R. K. Chitotela, hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe Constituency, raised a point of order. The point of order was premised on Standing Order No. 203 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, which provides for the conduct of members.

In his point of order, Mr R. K. Chitotela, MP, stated that at the beginning of the Sitting, when the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker had suspended business, Mr B. Kambita, hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi East Constituency, walked from his seat, stood at the centre and used unparliamentary language towards him and other senior hon. Members of Parliament. Mr R. K. Chitotela, MP, further stated that Mr B. Kambita, MP, referred to the said Members as “lumpens”, which he found very provocative. He, therefore, inquired why Mr B. Kambita, MP, should not be disciplined for referring to hon. Members of Parliament as “lumpens”.

Hon. Members, in her immediate response, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker reserved her ruling to study the matter. I have since studied the matter and will now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, I had recourse to the verbatim record of the proceedings of the relevant day and note that the point of order relates to a period when I had suspended the Business of the House for about ten minutes to restore order and decorum in the House. This was as a result of the disorder occasioned by Mr J. E. Banda, hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central Constituency, and his failure to heed to my directive to leave the House.

Hon. Members, our Standing Orders are instructive on the issue of points of order. A point of order is defined as an assertion made by a Member that a rule of procedure or privilege of the House has been breached. Further, Standing Order No. 139 (6) provides as follows:

“139…

(6) A Point of Order shall only be raised in relation to the conduct of Business of the House being transacted, at the time the Point of Order is raised.”

Additionally, Audrey O Brien and Marc Bosc in their book entitled House of Commons, Procedure and Practice, Second Edition, (Quebec, Thomson Reuters, 2009), define a point of order in the following terms at page 632:

“A Point of Order is an intervention by a member who believes that the rules or customary procedures of the House have been incorrectly applied or overlooked during the proceedings. Members may rise on Points of Order to bring the attention of the Chair any breach of the relevance or repetition rule, unparliamentary remarks or lack of quorum.”

Hon. Members, based on the authorities cited above, it is clear that a point of order must be raised, on the Floor of the House in respect of an alleged breach of the rules of procedure or privilege. Further, the point of order must be in relation to business being transacted at the time it is raised. Therefore, for alleged breaches that occur outside the House, the same can be brought to my attention using other avenues such as through a letter of complaint.

Hon. Members, in the current matter, Mr R. K. Chitotela, MP, alleged that Mr B. Kambita, MP, used unparliamentary and demeaning language towards him and other hon. Members during the period when Business of the House was suspended. Therefore, in line with the above authorities, the point of order is inadmissible.

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URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

MR B. MPUNDU, HON. MEMBER FOR NKANA, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO ON A VIETNAMESE NATIONAL NEGOTIATING FOR LAND IN LUAPULA AND MUCHINGA PROVINCES

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, Luapula Province is endowed with many minerals and we can conclude that it is a very rich province. There has been peace in the province since Independence.

Madam Speaker, my urgent matter without notice is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President, who is in charge of Business of the House.

Madam Speaker, as we speak today, there is serious apprehension in Luapula because of a foreign national, a Vietnamese, who is trotting from one palace to another trying to negotiate for land in a reported transaction, that will see him part away with 6 million ha of land for investment.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that there is a news item that was carried by the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), where a meeting was held between the said Vietnamese and Government officials in which meeting, the hon. Minister for Luapula Province and Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) officials were present. In the said transaction, the Vietnamese national was poised to part away with 6 million ha of land.

Madam Speaker, is Her Honour the Vice-President in order to sit quietly and allow this apprehension from Luapula all the way to Muchinga because the piece of land is said to be from Luapula to Muchinga?

Madam Speaker, is Her Honour the Vice-President in order to remain quiet and not address this raging debate over a transaction to part way with almost a quarter of this country by a foreign national?

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

Mr Simumba: Quality!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member for Nkana. I have seen the matter you have raised circulating on social media, but I suggest you file in a question.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Then Her Honour the Vice-President will be able to answer.

MR CHITOTELA, HON. MEMBER FOR PAMBASHE, ON MR MTOLO, HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, ON THE VIETNAMESE INVESTOR

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, I am grateful. I am directing this urgent matter without notice at the hon. Minister of Agriculture because as we speak, this Vietnamese is in my constituency and he had a meeting with Senior Chief Mushota.

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, as the people of Luapula and Pambashe, we are very concerned that the hon. Minister of Agriculture can comfortably sit there, without addressing the people of Pambashe who are getting affected. The hon. Minister may take the matter lightly, but this is a serious matter that is affecting all of us. Somebody is busy trying to convince the traditional authorities to sign him land that he can process and put on title without consideration.

Madam Speaker, for the information of those who may not be aware, the Mushishinga people belong to bena ngoma na bena mbeba. No single chief can make decision without consulting these two clans.

Madam Speaker, was the hon. Minister of Agriculture in order to send his friend, the hon. Minister ...

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us listen.

Mr Chitotela: ... for Eastern Province, to be in that entourage? He even spent a night in Luwingu and later drove to Mushota.

Madam Speaker, is he in order to allow the foreign investor to have land without due consideration of the feelings of the people of that area?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious indulgence.

Madam Speaker: I believe the hon. Member for Pambashe was in the House when the hon. Member for Nkana raised the same matter. In accordance with our rules, we are not supposed to repeat ourselves. In particular, I will refer to Rule No. 73.

So, hon. Member for Pambashe, that matter has already been raised by the hon. Member for Nkana, and he has been advised to file in a question. Let us wait for him to file in a question and when that question is being answered you will be able to ask questions on points of clarification.

The last matter is from the hon. Member for – I am trying to balance. It is supposed to be hon. Member for Kanyama, but hon. Member for Nalolo is alone. So, I do not know whom to give the Floor to. Alright, we will go for the hon. Member for Kanyama.

MR CHINKULI, HON. MEMBER FOR KANYAMA, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO ON THE FLOODS AND THE CHOLERA OUTBREAK

Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, without wasting much of your time, in three to four month’s time, it will be the onset of the rainy season. We realise that there has been outbreaks of several diseases coupled with floods, which have seen a number of lives being lost.

Madam Speaker, it is because of this that I want to find out how prepared the Government is in mitigating the outbreak of cholera and floods, which areas like Kanyama face during this period.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kanyama, to which ministry was that urgent matter without notice directed at?

Mr Chinkuli: Madam Speaker, it was directed at the Leader of Government Business.

Madam Speaker: I suggest you file in a question because last week, we were dealing with a similar matter of a cholera outbreak in the Eastern Province, Chipata in particular, and the hon. Minister of Health attended to that matter and touched on a number of areas and what we need to do. So, hon. Member for Kanyama, file in a question, then Her Honour the Vice-President will be able to address that concern.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

HUMAN-WILDLIFE CONFLICT

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Eng. Nzovu) (on behalf of the Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba)): Madam Speaker, thank you for granting me this opportunity to address the nation through this august House on the measures that the Government through my ministry is taking to prevent incidences of human-wildlife conflict in Mpika and other parts of the country, resulting in loss of human life, injuries and damage to property.

Madam Speaker, as you may be aware, I have on several occasions presented comprehensive ministerial statements on the Floor of this House regarding human-wildlife conflict as a significant growing conservation challenge globally, and Zambia in particular.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Tourism, wishes to state that it has noticed with great concern the manner in which some residents of Nabwalya Chiefdom and other parts of the country have either been killed or left injured, in some instances, their property damaged by dangerous wild animals. This situation is highly regrettable by the Government and as well as the ministry responsible for the management of wildlife and protected areas. The ministry is fully aware that in the recent past, human-wildlife conflicts mostly involving elephants and lions have significantly continued to increase due to the increase in wildlife population and human population, leading to the extension of crop fields in animal habitats and interference of animal corridors.

Madam Speaker, further, it should be noted that the drought, which the country experienced during the 2023/2024 Rainy Season, has come with environmental effects of its own. These effects are anticipated to be more severe as compared to the past. As such, some animals are expected to wonder about in search of forage, space and water. This situation has caused animals to stray into human settlement areas. Hence, high prevalence of wildlife-induced conflicts in areas like Nabwalya Chiefdom.

Madam Speaker, the ministry also regrets that in the past month, there has been a record of human-animal conflicts in Nabwalya Chiefdom, notable is the death of a child aged ten who was attacked and eaten by a lion and a community scout aged forty-eight who succumbed to an elephant attack. The Ministry of Tourism, through the Department of National Parks and Wildlife (DNPW), promptly responded to all the incidents and took appropriate action. The elephant and the lion were instantly controlled by way of killing them to prevent more deaths.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Tourism is implementing measures aimed at mitigating human-wildlife conflicts throughout the country. In Mpika, particularly Nabwalya Chiefdom, the ministry in collaboration with conservation partners such as Frankfurt Zoological Society has been implementing measures to mitigate human-wildlife conflicts and protect the residents of the chiefdom and their property.

Madam Speaker, some of the measures include, but are not limited to:

community-based safeguards: These include chili blasters, chili fences, and fireworks, which are meant to scare and deter problem animals from human settlements;
elephant proof grain storages (EPGS): Construction of concrete grain storages for residents of Nabwalya Chiefdom to safely store their grain as opposed to traditional grain stores;
smell elephant repellent fence lines: The smell deters elephants from reaching human settlement areas;
animal intrusion, detection and response systems (ANIDERS): These produce light and alarm to scare away animals within a recommended radius;
motion sensor lights for animal predation: They produce lights to scare away wildlife animals, especially cats;
controlling of problem animals: These animals are controlled by way of killing;
scaring animals using firearms: Highly responsive officers use firearms to scare away problem animals;
robust community sensitisation and awareness: The Ministry of Tourism has continued to conduct sensitisation and awareness sessions on animal behavior, animal corridors, general management plan provisions, wildlife protected area ethics, and behavioural expectations of humans;
rapid response teams: This year, the Government has procured six 4x4 Land Cruiser vehicles for rapid response to human-wildlife conflict indcidences. These vehicles have been distributed to all hotspot areas;
use of indigenous methods: Nabwalya Chiefdom committee members are encouraged to continue using indigenous methods such as; drumming and digging trenches alongside contemporary measures; and
specialised in-service training of wildlife police officers in human-wildlife conflict: By the end of the year 2024, The Government will train wildlife police officers at Nyamaluma Training School, to protect human life and property from Human-wildlife conflict incidences. They will be deployed in Nabwalya Chiefdom and other parts of the country.

Madam Speaker, it is imperative to note that, with this situation at hand, the Government has continued to implement integrated mitigation measures in the management of human-wildlife conflicts with strict focus on hotspot areas. This is to promote co-existence while safe guarding human life and property.

Madam Speaker, contrary to the perception by some citizens that the Government is more interested in the well-being of animals than people, I wish to retaliate that the Government, through the Ministry of Tourism, is committed to the providing prompt response services to all incidences of human-wildlife conflicts, in order to protect human life and property. Further, the Government is committed to ensuring that human life and property are adequately protected from wildlife-induced conflicts countrywide.

Madam Speaker, may I also take this opportunity to make an earnest appeal through this august House to the general public to always adhere to the following protected area ethics in order to reduce human-wildlife conflicts:

remain calm when there is an anticipated confrontation with wild animals and promptly report to the nearest DNPW offices or where not available, a local police station or local authorities such as; Community Resources Boards (CRBS), Councilors, headmen and the Royal Highnesses, who will in turn report to relevant authorities;
desist from getting closer, surrounding, molesting and harassing wildlife with incessant noise and throwing of objects and killing stray animals. Instead, help to disseminate information so that members of the public could exercise cautionary measures as they go about their daily businesses;
reduce movements in areas where dangerous animals have been reported, particularly in the night when visibility is compromised;
avoid storing food that may attract dangerous animals in the makeshifts;
desist from washing or drawing water in crocodile-infected water bodies;
avoid watching and taking photos closer to wild animals;
desist from settling and farming in wildlife corridors; and
avoid farming too close to river/ stream banks.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Zambian Government, and indeed on my behalf as Minister responsible for the management of wildlife and protective areas, I implore all citizens to abide by the ethics of wildlife-protected areas in order to peacefully co-exist and interact with wildlife and subsequently reduce human-wildlife conflicts.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the ministry remains committed to laying a firm foundation for a future where communities and wildlife co-exist for the betterment of the citizens, wildlife estates, and the nation.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the Acting hon. Minister of Tourism.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, I am very grateful. I wish to use this time to also pass my condolences to the families who lost their beloved ones.

Madam Speaker, the issue of human-animal conflict is very serious, especially to hon. Members who have constituencies that are affected. Chitambo Constituency is also on the list.

Madam Speaker, has the Ministry of Tourism taken time to study the issue of stray animals? How much has been invested in this matter to ensure that we cordon stray animals because it is not the humans who are following the animals, but it is the animals following the human?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, indeed, the Government is very saddened by the loss of life resulting from animal-human conflict. I must inform you that I was privileged to have been at the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment. One of the issues we looked at was the encroachment of game reserve areas by our people and how we can discourage them. Indeed, as the hon. Member of Parliament has said, it is not the animals going to areas where the humans live, but our people are also encroaching on the reserves.

Madam Speaker, this Government has invested heavily, through the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation as well as the Ministry of Tourism. Several projects right now are on hand to ensure that the Government addresses to this problem.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation will construct over 225 watering points to ensure that wild animals are kept in their safe areas. Indeed, sensitisation programmes have been on the upswing to ensure that our people live peacefully with the animals. Further, in some areas where this scourge has been on the upswing, the Ministry of Tourism has started fencing off certain areas. The Government will do everything possible for our people to ensure that their lives are protected.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: As a matter of clarification, if I heard the hon. Member of Parliament for Chitambo correctly, he stated that it was the animals that were going to people's habitation instead of the people doing the same. That is what the hon. Member for Chitambo said.

Hon. Minister, may you clarify that point.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, indeed, I clarified that point. It is both ways. I come from Mumbwa and the whole of that area leading to Kafue National Park is heavily encroached by our people. So, most game management areas (GMAs) and national parks, right now, are heavily encroached. One way of addressing human-wildlife conflicts is to ensure that we sensitise our people on the dangers of settling in such areas and request them not to go to those areas.

Madam Speaker, you will now see a surge in climate-induced problems. As a country, we have experienced a punishing drought and most of the watering holes, springs and rivers are dry. Animals will forage for watering holes and some of them will be in areas where our people live. That is why we are asking our people to be cautious and not to cultivate near GMA and river sources, to avoid human-animal conflict. Further, as I stated, we, as the Government will dig watering holes in areas where the animals live so that the animals do not wonder away so much to areas where our people live.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, welcome back.

Madam Speaker, it is imperative at times that when these issues are raised, the Executive, particularly hon. Ministers, take interest by getting to the ground and having first-hand information. Some of the information gathered whenever there is an issue leaves much to be desired, in terms of facts.

Madam Speaker, the situation in Nabwalya Chiefdom, for instance, is a serious one. I survived an elephant attack on my way back from Nabwalya two weeks ago. This is not something that hon. Ministers can joke about. It is a very serious issue. I and my team, including two of my Councillors survived. As I was leaving, two people, one of them being a child, were killed by a lion and not even a hand was picked by the family.

Madam Speaker, what is contributing highly to the increase in the number of animals to the extent where animals are roaming around communities is the cancellation of the hunting concessions. For three years now, there has never been any hunting in Luwawata and Nyampande in Chief Nabwalya’s Chiefdom in North Luangwa National Park, and this has increased the population of animals. Therefore, when will the Government reinstate the cancelled hunting concessions?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, the Government regrets the death of any of its people and it will do everything possible to preserve their lives.

Madam Speaker, I must inform the hon. Member of Parliament that I have been very well prepared by the hon. Minister of Tourism, particularly on this matter and many matters concerning tourism. Therefore, I would like to inform the hon. Member of Parliament that the Ministry of Tourism through the officers from the national parks has been very active in that area because it has been accepted as a hot spot area. Officers from the national parks are on the ground as I speak, and they will do everything possible to protect the lives of the people in Nabwalya and other parts of the country.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of concessional licences, I am aware that this was the subject of a court action and that the hon. Minister of Tourism will come with specifics to discuss this matter comprehensively. So, it will be in my handover notes as I meet him tomorrow.

Madam Speaker, I would like to invite the hon. Member of Parliament to actually visit the Ministry of Tourism for a better engagement.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, welcome back.

Madam Speaker, ecologically speaking, the food chain entails that at Independence, Zambia had 3.5 million people and most of the game parks if you check, were created when the population was at 5.2 million and now it is 20 million. This means that the dwelling places of people, search for food and economic activities are expanding.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the people are the ones following the animals. However, I would like to believe that it is the other way round where animals are the ones following people in some way. This is where we create the notion that animals are more important than people because the population has bulged. It is a reality that the number of animals has been reducing in certain places as the population swells.

Madam Speaker, how does the ministry intend to create a balance between areas that have been encroached on by human beings and those that have not? Is the Government thinking of degazetting those areas because if we look at the time that national parks were created and subsequently the game management areas (GMAs), the population was small? The population size has grown, meaning that human beings take priority in terms of settlement than animals. This is because even in conservation, the principle is that we conserve for future generations and these future generations are human beings, not animals. So, I do not know whether the Government intends to degazette some of the areas where human beings are staying instead of giving animals room to take priority over human beings.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very important question. I agree with him that, indeed, the population has increased. Twenty to thirty years ago, the population was small but, now, it has increased and, obviously, our population needs more land.

Madam Speaker, Zambia is about 750,000 km², and we are only 20 million people. When you look at the percentage of national parks and GMAs, including forests, you realise that it is quite small.

Madam Speaker, maybe, the short answer on the other side is that; yes, indeed, the Government is looking at degazetting some areas. However, that would be the last solution. The Government has earmarked tourism as a sector, which can contribute to the growth of our gross domestic product (GDP). So, protecting GMAs and national parks is cardinal.

Madam Speaker, I come from the environment space where there were protected forests. This is the same challenge we were facing of protected forests illegally encroached upon. Forests are also earmarked to contribute significantly to our GDP. It is a balance. We discourage our people from occupying national forests in certain areas where tourism potential is very high. We are also looking very strongly at relocating people from areas such as GMAs, national parks and protected forests. We do not encourage illegal settling in ecologically sensitive areas. As stated by the hon. Member, we are experiencing a punishing drought, and some ecologically sensitive areas are responsible for the rainfall we receive.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. I am trying to balance.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, welcome back and I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the statement.

Madam Speaker, the issue of human-animal conflict was there before the drought, in a very aggravated way. As you may be aware, elephants from Sioma reach Nalolo, Kalabo and Nalikwanda. Lions from Mulobezi reach Luena. My concern is that, with this drought and hunger, we have two parties searching for food; the people are hungry and so are the animals. So, the human-animal conflict can only get worse.

Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the Acting hon. Minister if the ministry has generated a well-researched scientific report to show which areas are hotspots because the six Land Cruisers are not enough for the country, not even for the Western Province alone, and now we are talking about Mpika. I can tell you that in Nalolo alone, two months ago five lives were lost due to elephant and hippopotamus attacks. So, does the Ministry of Tourism have a document indicating that people have gone around the country, and can tell us where the hotspots are?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, indeed, this conflict can only increase. However, the Government is prepared. For the correction of the hon. Member of Parliament, the Land Cruisers are for rapid response. The DNPW is very well-ready and has many other vehicles, and the officers are on the ground.

Madam Speaker, further, there is now an improved collaboration among ministries. The New Dawn Government promotes a one Government approach. Forests are near GMAs, and national parks. The Ministry of Tourism and the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment have formed a very close partnership to work as one Government. So, indeed, the Land Cruisers are just an addition. They are for rapid response, ready to respond to any emergency. This is over and above what the department has.

Madam Speaker, I want to confirm with the hon. Member without any fear of contradiction that the Ministry of Tourism has been carrying out a lot of research in their national parks. So, conflict areas, and all corridors where animals normally pass, are clearly marked. Indeed, the Ministry of Tourism has been carrying out a number of sensitisation programmes for our people. So, I can confirm to the hon. Member that yes, indeed, documents and plans are there. The Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation is also helping in mitigating expected challenges.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, allow me to register the condolences of the good people of Lunte to all the families whose relatives lost their lives through animal attacks, including the ten-year-old child and the forty-eight-year-old scout.

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister tendered his statement to the House, I considered Nabwalya to be in Muchinga Province. I thought the risk of animals and people fighting for places of habitation would only increase after the 6 million land deal goes through.

Madam Speaker, the measures of co-existence have failed. This is why people are dying at the hands of animals. The next time trained people will be sent to Nabwalya will be at the end 2024. What will happen between now and the end of next year, considering that the existing measures have failed?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I am sure, the hon. Member is aware that Hon. Chipoka Mulenga issued a statement on the 6 million ha of land and the statement was very clear.

Madam Speaker, measures of co-existence have not failed. We will push for these measures to succeed, but over and above promoting co-existence, we are trying to ensure that animal lives as well as human lives are protected. Human lives matter and they will always matter more than animal lives. That is why when we see deaths being experienced as a result of the animals, it is the animals we take out. We have demonstrated very clearly that people matter.

Further, Madam Speaker, we are taking all necessary measures, including making sure that animals are confined to their habitat. We are also making sure that our people do not encroach on protected areas. I want to encourage all hon. Members of Parliament, particularly those who come from areas where there are human-animal conflicts, to, indeed, educate our people on the dangers. We need to speak more. Please, partner with the Ministry of Tourism so that together, we can form a united front. We need to protect our people. This is a non-partisan issue. We are protecting all Zambians, and this Government, indeed, will protect all Zambians.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mbao: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: You can stop the clock.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbao: Madam Speaker, I reluctantly rise on this very important point of order premised on Standing Order No. 65.

Hon. Members: There is no 65.

Mr Mbao: We have not been given the new Standing Orders. So, I am okay.

Interruptions

Mr Mbao: Madam Speaker, permission to proceed.

Madam Speaker: You may proceed. However, just for assistance, it is now Standing Order No. 71.

Mr Mbao: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My point of order is premised on Standing Order No. 71. The point of order is on the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte who indicated in front of everyone; in your presence and the entire nation that there is a deal for land of about 6 million ha that is about to go through.

Madam Speaker, if you have ruled and someone keeps on referring to what you already ruled, that should not be allowed in this House. Is the hon. Member in order to refer to something that has been ruled upon? Is he in order to talk about something that is just out of his imagination?

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much hon. Minister of Northern Province. I had guided that the hon. Member for Nkana puts in a question. So, we shall wait for that question. Let us not refer to or rely so much on social media stories because we are going to mislead people. So, let us wait for the question to be submitted then follow-up questions will be asked.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, permit me to join the hon. Members who are welcoming you back to the House and sending sincere messages of condolences to the families whose loved ones lost lives as a result of human-animal conflict.

Madam Speaker, I sympathise with the Acting hon. Minister. I would have loved to have the substantive hon. Minister respond to these questions because the mover of this question is my neighbour; Mpika borders Lumezi Constituency. He mentioned that one of the firms involved in hunting is Luawata Safari. In his statement, the Acting hon. Minister did not mention what he would do to the firms that are into the hunting business. For example, we have Kantanta Hunting Safari in Lumezi, which deliberately chases animals to areas where humans have settled. The safari does not do anything in form of social corporate responsibility, yet the hon. Minister is telling this august House that he will try by all means possible to keep animals far away from where humans are. On one hand, he is not telling us what he is doing to fence areas like Kantanta Hunting Safari, which is deliberately pushing animals to areas where human beings are. What is the hon. Minister doing about such firms?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member for Lumezi sincerely. Maybe, I should also inform him that I do not need his sympathies. When you are Acting Minister, you have the full knowledge, powers and you are briefed accordingly. So, I am speaking with the authority of the hon. Minister of Tourism. I can only encourage the hon. Member to listen very attentively. I want to repeat what I said for his benefit. First of all, I want to see how we can closely work together with the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi because, indeed, we are aware of the issues in that area.

Madam Speaker, we will continue sensitising our people. Again, I want to repeat that this issue is in both ways; animals going to areas where our people live, but also our people going to areas where the animals are. We need to strike a balance. In some areas, I am also aware that even physical barriers are proposed. I am also aware that some watering holes, will be put up by Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation as a way of providing this requisite resource to the animals that will be confined in that area. I am also aware that the hon. Member’s area and of course, Nabwalya are some of the areas where we will station the quick response vehicles.

Madam Speaker, I also requested hon. Members of Parliament, Councillors, headmen and traditional leaders to, first of all, educate our people of the dangers, but also, whenever danger arises to quickly inform the DNPW, the police and other relevant authorities. This is a matter of life and death and I can only encourage the hon. Member of Parliament to visit our offices to see what measures we are putting in place, we can also learn from the hon. Member. If people are pushing away animals, we will not tolerate that. Together with him, we would like to find a solution. So, Hon. Munir Zulu, should come to our office so that we work together to resolve this problem.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, you have been invited to go to the office. You do not have to respond.

Let us make progress.

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, in game management areas (GMAs), is there a limit as to how many animals should be there, especially the ones that are always involved in the human-animal conflicts? I ask this question because we learnt from our neighbours that they were actually threatening to send some of the animals to Europe. So, we have these animals and we are struggling with them, yet we can crop. Is there a way that when we reach a certain number of animals, we should be able to crop them?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, the number of animals in an area is called the carrying capacity. The carrying capacity of most areas is quite high. As to the exact numbers, I may not be aware. I think, the substantive hon. Minister can answer that question.

Hon. PF Members: But you are the one in charge.

Mr Katambo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Eng. Nzovu: That is a specific question. The hon. Member is asking about how many animals, but she should file in a question so that I answer it properly. For now, I do not have the exact number, hon. Member for Masaiti.

Mr Katambo rose.

Madam Speaker: Resume your seat, hon. Member.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, as the hon. Member resumes his seat, indeed, ...

Laughter

Eng. Nzovu: ... on the issue of concessions on the hunting licences, again, this is a subject that Hon. Sikumba will come and inform the House. As regards any other issues raised in the statement, I am here to answer.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, you are supposed to ask questions on point of clarification on the statement that has been rendered. So, let us make progress.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I want to also convey my condolences to the people who lost their loved ones in Nabwalya Chiefdom.

Madam Speaker, the issue of human-animal conflict has been discussed on this Floor several times. The hon. Minister indicated the measures that the Government is taking, but these are the same stories the ministry has been telling us for the past two years. I feel that as long as the hon. Ministers do not visit these areas and engage the people on the ground, we will be repeating ourselves every time through ministerial statements.

Madam Speaker, if you will allow me, I will give an example. We had a challenge in the Eastern Province over the issue of roads, in particular in Chama. The hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development came and spent a night in Chama. Today, the issue of –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I know that the subject can cover many areas, but let us restrict ourselves to the ministerial statement that has been rendered. Please, ask your question on points of clarification.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister have a timeframe when he will go and engage the people on the ground, because these ministerial statements are not going to help us. I want to know when the hon. Minister is going to visit Mpika, Chama and other areas where issues of human-animal conflict are prominent. I feel that way, the hon. Minister will be able to inform the Cabinet so that the Cabinet can make an informed decision.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very important question. I sympathise with Hon. Mtayachalo because these incidents are being experienced. However, I need to confirm to him that the Cabinet is fully aware. I am able to give such information because I am a member of the Cabinet.

Madam Speaker, it is not the same story. Right now, we have a rapid response team.

Mr Mtayachalo: Where?

Eng. Nzovu: The Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation will dig watering holes. There is a budgetary allocation to ensure that there are mitigation measures. I would agree with the hon. Member that more measures need to be put in place. The measures we have been talking about on the Floor of this House are measures we need to upscale. We can only work together to ensure that our people are protected.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I will add five minutes to this segment.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member for Chama North that the hon. Minister has been coming to the Floor of the House giving very elaborate statements, but on the ground, something different is happening. I am wondering why the case is like that. Just last week, we buried one man who was killed by an elephant. Today, in Kavalamanja, people are indoors because of fear of elephants roaming around that area.

Madam Speaker, in his last statement, the hon. Minister indicated that the ministry would create a task force, but he has not mentioned what happened to that task force. We are now wondering whether the hon. Minister comes for lip service in this House or, indeed, offering solutions. People are dying. The hon. Minister has indicated that he is worried about these deaths. Let me also offer condolences to all those people whose loved ones died out of this issue. On the ground, people believe that the Government cares more for the animals than people because when an animal has been killed, officers rush to go and arrest the individuals responsible, but when it is the opposite, that does not happen.

Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister clarify what has happened to the idea of the task force or is he just coming here to give lip service?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, let me again sympathise and offer condolences to my fellow Member of Parliament for Feira. From his tone, he is a sad man, but the Government is sadder. Any loss of any precious life is regretted. This Government will do everything possible to ensure that our people are safe. The lives of our people matter more than any other life. This reality is what will continue.

Madam Speaker, the measures I have outlined today, or outlined by the substantive hon. Minister of Tourism, are measures, which we will carry out and upscale. Any additional measures from those who live in those areas, who may know better, are welcome. So, the hon. Member of Parliament for Feira, is welcome. I am aware that the hon. Minister of Tourism has enlisted several hon. Members of Parliament here. Most of us are even officers.

Mr Mtayachalo: He has not given us guns!

Eng. Nzovu: This is to ensure that we help in protecting our people and disseminating this information. So, the hon. Minister of Tourism is well-engaged with our people.

Madam Speaker, as I said already, yes, I can confirm that the task force is there. Those in sensitive areas are welcome to join this task force. Indeed, the Government will do everything possible to ensure that the lives of all Zambians are protected. These are valued lives. This Government exists because of the goodwill of the Zambian people. All Zambians in all areas of the country, will be protected.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, with that strong assurance from the hon. Minister, and the questions that my colleagues have asked, we will wait upon the Government and see what happens. I speak with a heavy heart because my people in Chiawa are equally affected. whatever strategies have been talked about so far, it means that they are not working because we are stressed with this issue.

Madam Speaker: That was a comment.

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, I was listening to the ministerial statement attentively. The hon. Minister cautioned the people who are being affected that they should remain calm when confronted by wild animals. I do not know if the hon. Minister has ever been confronted by a lion and he was calm.

Laughter

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister why is he taking time to curb these dangerous wild animals? Instead, he is entertaining them by not taking the step to kill them. When will he start to killing these dangerous animals so that the people of Nabwalya can be safe?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member for Nakonde for that question.

Madam Speaker, I would like to caution and advise the hon. member that the measures we inform hon. Members and the public through this House must be taken seriously. The caution to remain calm is a result of the research on how to behave when one is found in an unfortunate situation. This advice is from the experts. So, we can only encourage hon. Members here across the divide to take these precautionary measures and inform our people. We should be the vessels to which the Ministry of Tourism must transmit this information. This information is given so that it reaches our people. So, let us be serious with it. We are not entertaining any of these dangerous animals. I informed this august House in my statement that we too killed those animals. We will kill any animal that causes danger to our people. I want to repeat slowly, that the lives of Zambians matter more than the lives of those animals.

Madam Speaker, there are several measures that we have taken. One of the measures that I have just remembered right now is that people should not encroach in certain conflict areas; these are areas where we have our sources of rivers and ecologically sensitive areas. Our people are also cultivating in those areas hence attracting hippopotamuses and crocodiles. Whilst those areas may have very fertile soils, they areas are dangerous because they are areas that animals patronise as well.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. That concludes the ministerial statement. However, what I have observed is that we have had so many ministerial statements on this matter. At one point, the hon. Minister of Tourism had said that there was going to be some committee of some sort that was going to look at the measures that can be taken to bring this matter to a conclusion or to find some solutions.

In places like Tanzania, and I remember giving this example, human beings live together with wild animals and domesticated animals. Why can we not learn and find out from them how they are managing? For example, I read a story of some children killing a lion using stones in Luena Constituency where I come from. I do not know whether that was a true story. Usually, there are no stones in Luena. So, I do not know where those children got the stones from. I am sure, it was the social media stories again.

Nevertheless, Acting hon. Minister, please, I think, we need to do more to ensure that we actualise the solutions that are going to resolve the issue of human-animal conflicts.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, we will take every measure to ensure that our people are safe. Further, all hon. Members of Parliament are invited and the nation will be carried along.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Let us make progress.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CASES OF ANTHRAX DISEASE IN KALABO DISTRICT

370. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Fisheries and Livestock:

(a) whether the Government is aware that Kalabo District has been recording increased cases of anthrax disease for the past one month; and

(b) if so, what urgent measures are being taken to contain the disease and avert loss of animal and human life.

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Chikote): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government is aware that two cases of anthrax were reported in Lilambo Village of Sihole Veterinary Camp in Kalabo District of the Western Province. The disease was confirmed after samples submitted to the provincial veterinary laboratory tested positive. Apart from these two cases, there have been no other cases of anthrax reported in the district.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that anthrax is endemic in the Western Province and the disease flares up from time to time. It is for this reason that we vaccinate animals every year to curb the occurrences. The ministry had planned to vaccinate animals against anthrax in May and June. However, the province experienced increased cases of Contagious Bovine Pleuro-Pneumonia (CBPP) leading to a delay in the commencement of anthrax vaccination as the ministry had to first attend to the control of CBPP through vaccination of cattle. As the House may know, these two vaccinations cannot be undertaken simultaneously.

Madam Speaker, the Government has put in place the following urgent measures to contain the disease and avert the loss of animal and human lives in the affected area:

sensitisation and awareness creation among the communities to educate on the dangers of handling and consuming meat from animals that die on their own;
placed a ban on all slaughters and movement of animals in and out of Sihole and Ng’uma veterinary camps to prevent the spread of the disease in Kalabo District; and
the ministry has commenced the process of facilitating the vaccination of cattle and small ruminants in Sihole and Ng’uma veterinary camps and this vaccination will extend to the rest of the district.

To this effect, Madam Speaker, the ministry is in the process of dispatching 50,000 doses of anthrax vaccine to the province, out of which, 7,000 doses will be used in Sihole veterinary camp and 8,000 will be for Ng’uma veterinary camp.

Madam Speaker, given the urgent nature of the anthrax situation in Sihole and Ng’uma veterinary camps, the ministry will first start with the vaccination against anthrax in the two camps and this will be followed by vaccination against CBPP two weeks later. As for the rest of the district, anthrax vaccination will commence immediately after the CBPP vaccinations have been completed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon. Minister is aware that we had a discussion with him together with the Director of Veterinary Services. I was assured that things would move at that pace, but when I called the District Veterinary Officer for Kalabo today, he indicated that the vaccination has not yet started in Kalabo. So, a number of questions anyway –

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, in the first place, the samples were sent to Mongu on 7^th May, 2024, but the results were only gotten thirty days later. We can imagine the waiting period. Since the Government knows how serious and dangerous the disease is to human life, why should it take four weeks for the results of the sample of this serious disease to come out? What challenges cause laboratories in Mongu to take four weeks?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for the follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, as you have heard, I engaged the hon. Member of Parliament over the situation in Sihole and I assured him that we will do our best to quickly respond to the situation. Really, it is very unfortunate that our staff can take thirty days to give feedback on the samples. The hon. Member is aware that we are making a follow up why the laboratory delayed to release the results. Work is being done by our staff.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Madam Speaker, I would like to know the overall seropositive rate after the ministry sampled the areas that were infected thus; Ng’uma and Sihole veterinary camps? As far as I am concerned, the ministry needs to know when it is supposed to reinforce the vaccination programmes. I know the hon. Minister knows what I am talking about. What is the seropositive rate in Ng’uma and Sihole veterinary camps?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I am sure that the hon. Member is the former Minister of the same ministry; the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock. He knows that we have a schedule to vaccinate our animals to protect them against anthrax. For that specific question, regarding the seropositive rate of Sihole and Ng’uma, I will provide information after gathering it, as currently, I do not have it. We were set to vaccinate that animals in May and June 2024, and that is our schedule scientifically. Unfortunately, as the hon. Member is aware, we cannot vaccinate at the same time for CBPP and anthrax. Therefore, I will come back to the House later to give the rate figures.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sialubalo (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, that is how it started last year, with two cases in Sinazongwe, then we lost over 240 animals and now, the disease is in Kalabo. In terms of vaccines, at the national level, how safe are we, in an event that this matter escalates to the national level?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, indeed, that is the way anthrax starts, especially when we do not have pasture and in view of the drought situation we are going through. We are also aware that anthrax can hit at any time. As a ministry, however, we are very much prepared. As I speak, we already have vaccines, ready to start the programme to vaccinate all our animals in the high-risk areas to start with, to build on the immune system of those animals. These vaccines are not imported, but they are produced at the Central Veterinary Research Institute (CVRI) locally.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Some hon. Members entered the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as you come in, especially if you are coming in late, quietly go to your respective seats and do not disrupt the proceedings. I have seen this tendency of hon. Members walking in and out, willy-nilly, and without paying much attention to what we are doing. It is not reflecting well on the people who are watching. Just a reminder that we are here for serious business.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the assurance we have been given by the hon. Minister is that the production of these vaccines is no longer done outside. Whilst the hon. Minister is affirming that the vaccines are produced locally, which means here in Zambia, but we are still moving at the same pace as if these vaccines were imported from London. How can the Government make sure that there is a difference, to show that the vaccines we have now are locally produced? To enhance the speed of activities, what measures can the Government put in place to quicken the process and make a difference from where we are coming from?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member would like to know the measures we are putting in place to make sure that our people are really convinced that we are producing the vaccines locally. The first one is the availability of the vaccines. Secondly, we are going to start vaccinations in the areas that I have mentioned. I am assuring the hon. Member that, even as we are talking now, logistics are being put in place to make sure that our staff go in the field and start the vaccinations. I think that is assurance enough, from the Government, that it is not like the way it used to happen. This time around, we respond. We are moving with the lead time in terms of vaccination. I have stated that according to our schedule, we were supposed to start vaccinating the animals in June to protect them from diseases, but because of the outbreak of the CBPP, we cannot vaccinate the animals against those two diseases simultaneously. To prove to the people that we are really responding to the challenges that we are facing is through what we have put in place. I am sure that I engaged the hon. Member to help me pass this information to our good people of Kalabo Central Constituency, that the Government is in the process of vaccinating all our animals. He must help us make sure that our farmers avail their animals to be vaccinated against anthrax.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out on behalf of the people of Kalabo. Looking at the lead time, we understand that measures are being put in place, but what is the ministry doing to ensure that from the period from May to towards the end of June, those animals are protected from further escalation or reinfection of other animals?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, as a ministry, we are already in the process of putting up logistics to move to all our high-risk areas and start vaccinating.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: My observation is that most of the time, the hon. Member for Kalabo Central is never satisfied with the answers given on the Floor of this House. I suggest that he is engaged more so that he does not cry.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: I always say that for each question that appears on the Order Paper, there is a background to it. So, hon. Ministers are encouraged to engage the hon. Members who are asking these questions so that they address them.

CONSTRUCTION OF A BRIDGE ACROSS LWITIKILA RIVER IN KANCHIBIYA CONSTITUENCY

371. Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

whether the Government has any plans to construct a bridge across Lwitikila River to connect Chiweshi/mfwamba and Chibwa wards in Kanchibuya Parliamentary Constituency;
if so, when the plans will be implemented;
what the estimated cost of the project is; and
if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct a bridge across Lwitikila River to connect Chiweshi/mfwamba and Chibwa wards in the Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency. The plans will be implemented once the Treasury secures the required funds for the project.

Madam Speaker, the cost of the prject will only be known once the detailed assessment of the required works has been undertaken and the engineering designs are prepared.

Madam Speaker, as indicated in part (a) of the question, the Government has plans to construct the bridge.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, I thought I just guided that if you have to go out, do that quietly without interrupting proceedings because I am being disturbed as well. There is a lot of chatting and meetings while the proceedings are on-going and that should not be encouraged. Please, if you have to go out, go out quietly and come back quietly, instead of going to greet everyone as if you are meeting for the first time today.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the hon. Minister for the assurance he has made to the people of Kanchibiya on this particular bridge. This bridge is very important for the people of Kanchibiya. Allow me to mention that Kanchibiya as a district and a constituency lies in the Bangweulu swamps as well as the Chambeshi Flood plains.

Madam Speaker, one of the major rivers we have in Kanchibiya is Lwitikila River. Let me commend the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development that already, we have an acrow bridge being constructed in the western direction of Kanchibiya Constituency called Kaonda Acrow Bridge. However, Lwitikila River flows down into Luchembe Chiefdom and this is where this critical crossing point lies. I thank the hon. Minister for the plans, but I just wanted to understand whether an assessment has already been done by the ministry with regard to this particular bridge and whether an acrow bridge will be put up or what type of bridge should we look forward to.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Government, through the ministries, is fully aware of the topology of that part of Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency. Anyone who flies into Kasama and looks down will see how difficult the area is in terms of water streams and rivers. However, let me give an expanded answer to show that we have been looking at this particular situation. The Government through the Road Development Agency (RDA), will assess the crossing point at Lwitikila River connecting the Cheweshimfwamba and Chibwa wards in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency, and it we will only do this in the third quarter of this year. This will ascertain the scope and cost of the required invention. The works on the crossing point will be undertaken once the required funds have been secured, but we would have done a study before that. At the moment, within Kanchibiya Constituency, the Government is presently engaged in the construction of two acrow bridges. One is being erected over Kanchibiya River at Mulonga, while the other is being constructed across Lwitikila River at Kaonda in Chibwa ward. I am sure, the hon. Member can attest to that. The progress on these acrow bridges on the Kanchibiya River at Mulonga is currently at 92 per cent. So, we are about to complete that bridge and the progress on the works of the acrow bridge across Lwitikila River at Kaonda and Chibwa wards is currently at 75 per cent.

Madam Speaker, furthermore, the Government has already assessed the Chiliwisha, Ng’ongwe and Chinjele crossing points in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency. The scope and cost of the required interventions have been determined. The works will be undertaken once funds have been secured.

Madam Speaker, with this answer, I think, the hon. Member will agree that work on crossing points in Kanchibiya has been carried out extensively. We will just wait for the availability of funds.

I thank you. Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that under his ministry the Road Development Agency (RDA) has a department responsible for design and planning so we have enough competence in terms of designing what type of bridge can be constructed. What I have noted over the years is that the RDA has no money to directly implement these works so it will have to include the bridge in the work plan, run an advertisement, and then bring in a private company to construct it. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the ministry is considering creating capacity within the regional offices whether it is the Copperbelt Province or the Northern Province. The capacity not just to plan and design, but to be able to carry out the work because that way, some of the works will be implemented quicker and will be able to save on public funds. So, when will the RDA build the capacity to do the actual work instead of just planning and designing?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Government has recognised the points that the hon. Member has made and that is why we are creating a paradigm shift in terms of what RDA does, such as maintenance. We are in the process of creating capacity to undertake maintenance on our roads. What used to happen previously was that when a road was made or rehabilitated, there would be no follow-up maintenance. They would wait until it deteriorates and then rehabilitate it again, which is very expensive. So, we are creating capacity within the original offices to carry out maintenance work.

Madam Speaker, in terms of works undertaken on projects like bridges and in some cases roads, again we are in the process of doing that. In certain cases, the RDA would have already carried out work. In addition to the RDA, we are using other wings of the Government like the Zambia National Service (ZNS) and the Zambia Army to undertake work on certain infrastructure concerned with roads and other types of infrastructure such as buildings. Correctional services are now engaged in constructing bridges. As a matter of fact, last Saturday, I was in Lunte Constituency commissioning an acrow bridge. Substantially, most of that work in the apartments was carried out by the RDA; it was not contracted out. There is wonderful work being carried out there, and the hon. Member for Lunte Constituency can attest to that fact. So, wherever possible, we do use the RDA and we will expand its expertise so that it can do more.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kolala (Lufubu): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. When people cry louder, it is because they have hope in the New Dawn Government. They were neglected by the previous Government and they have seen this hope. Hence, they would like to see to it that they are given what they have cried for, for a long time. The bridge in Kanchibiya District is needed just as much as the bridge in Ngabwe District. The bridge will connect Ngabwe Chiefdom and Mukubwe Chiefdom. The bridges are long overdue. The hon. Minister said that the bridge will be constructed when the money is available. We are not sure when the money will be available. Would the hon. Minister comfort us by telling us the estimated timeframe?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member, Mr Kolala is right in saying that people have hope in the New Dawn Government. It is justified hope. However, a preacher once said, to assess the direction of political parties, one needs to look at the titles they hold. The current Government is called the United Party for National Development (UPND), which shows that the party is very concerned with uniting the country. National development means that the party in Government is concerned about taking development to all corners of the country. We also want those who call themselves patriotic to show their patriotism.

Madam Speaker, regarding the issues raised by the hon. Member, when we talk about the lack of resources it is not because we want to sound like a broken record. It is the current economic situation we find ourselves. For this reason, the New Dawn Government is working day and night to restructure the economy. Once it is done, the Government will start the process of sourcing funds that can be used to work on projects. In November 2020, the previous Government defaulted on the loan repayment of over US$42 million, making Zambia the first country in Africa to default on the loan service. Hence, the Government was constrained to borrow money. Going forward, the Government will ensure that there are more resources made available for the people. Unfortunately, the claustrophobic drought the country experienced during the 2023/2024 Rainy Season has further constrained the Government. However, it will not be permanent. The people of Zambia should expect more of what the New Dawn Government will do.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

PROCUREMENT OF EQUIPMENT TO ENHANCE THE OPERATIONS OF THE ZAMBIA NEWS AND INFORMATION SERVICES IN CHADIZA DISTRICT

372. Mr J. Daka (Chadiza) asked the Minister of Information and Media:

(a) when the Government will procure the following, to enhance the operations of the Zambia News and Information Services in Chadiza District:

(i) computers;

(ii) recorders;

(iii) cameras;

(iv) public address system; and

(v) motor vehicles; and

(b) what the cause of the delay in procuring the equipment is.

The Minister of Information and Media (Mr Mweetwa): Madam Speaker, with the greatest indulgence of the whole House, before I answer the question, permit me to update the nation that; today, 25^th June, 2024, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Ministry of Information and Media, promulgated and signed the Commencement Order for the Access to Information Act No. 24 of 2023. This is in line with the measures the Government took that the Commencement Order would be signed at the end of the second quarter of the year.

Madam Speaker, allow me to also take this opportunity to inform the citizens of Zambia that the rules, regulations and guidelines that will see and oversee the full implementation of the Access to Information Act No. 24 of 2023 are presently been worked out by the High Court, the Human Rights Commission (HRC), the Ministry of Justice, and the Ministry of Information and Media. As a matter of fact, the first consultative workshop took five days and was concluded last week. Feedback has been given to stakeholders to inform them of the contents of the rules, regulations and guidelines. The nation will be informed as and when the Government makes certain steps or strides that it deems fit for it.

Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity.

Madam Speaker, in the last two years, the Government, through the Ministry of Information and Media, has procured some equipment for the Zambian News and Information Services (ZANIS) headquarters, provincial and selected districts offices across the country. Due to the limited budgetary allocation, the Ministry of Information and Media is procuring equipment in a phased approach. The equipment includes; broadcast equipment for ZANIS studios, professional video cameras, public address systems, computers, recorders and motor vehicles. So far, the Government has procured ten professional video cameras for all the ten provinces, and ten full sets of public address systems for all the ten ZANIS provincial offices and over sixty digital cameras for ZANIS offices, which includes Chadiza District.

Madam Speaker, the procurement of more equipment such as vehicles, computers, public address systems, and recorders for all the districts including Chadiza District will be profiled in the 2025 National Budget. The delay in procuring all the required equipment for all ZANIS district offices, which includes Chadiza District, has been due to funding constraints.

Madam Speaker, the previous administrations neglected ZANIS. The current state of infrastructure and equipment under the charge of ZANIS is nothing to write home about. The ZANIS through the Ministry of Information and Media requires an overhaul of its funds to come up to the speed that is required of it to perform.

Madam Speaker, additionally, the ZANIS district office is funded under the provincial administration, and the Ministry of Information and Media is presently proposing that in the 2025 National Budget. ZANIS being a department under the Ministry of Information and Media, be funded directly under the ministerial budget.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, there is precedence in terms of how we tender discourse on the Floor of the House. I rise on this point of order pursuant to precedence. The point of order is against the hon. Minister of Information and Media.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister heads a sector, which deals with information. Is he in order therefore, to come to this House, to tender press statements, which are not provided for in our Standing Orders, including the new Standing Orders, which has never been seen in this Assembly.

Madam Speaker, why does the hon. Minister not take the liberty to mobilise the media who are under his jurisdiction? Instead, he chooses this Assembly to come and issue a press statement against precedence and provisions of our Standing Orders.

Madam Speaker, I seek your ruling.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, before the hon. Minister said what he did, he asked for permission to notify the hon. Members, on the issue of bringing into force the Access to Information Act. So, I granted him that permission. He did not do it on his own. However, thank you for being alert.

Mr J. Daka: Madam Speaker, I am glad that the hon. Minister is aware of the obtaining situation that is at the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) in Chadiza.

Madam Speaker, I would like to acknowledge the receipt of the video cameras. However, I will talk about what is obtaining currently. The office has no transport, computers, furniture, public address system and other related infrastructure that would enable an office to function properly.

Madam Speaker, a good Government normally provides solutions to any obtaining situation for its citizens, on a short-term, medium-term, and long-term basis. Therefore, what short-term solutions has the Government put in place to ensure that the ZANIS office in Chadiza is functional?

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I would like to agree with the hon. Member that the items he has listed, are not at the ZANIS district office in Chadiza District. That is exactly what I had indicated in my answer, that ZANIS over time has been neglected. If proper investments in this department were made by successive Governments to where we are, we would not have been where we are as we speak today. That is why in the immediate term, we as a ministry are now taking ownership of ZANIS, which is a department under the ministry. Therefore, we are proposing that the funding that goes to the provincial administration, which is very lean goes to the ministry. We will be lobbying robustly and hon. Members should also join hands in lobbying robustly that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning considers funding ZANIS, especially that it is the biggest news organisation in the nation and that it has a footprint in all 116 districts. Therefore, it only makes sense to fund ZANIS adequately so that it can give feedback on the good impact of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) that is being used right across the country.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister for Information and Media in his response to the hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza’s question, informed the august House and the public that he would desire the allocation for the institution called the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) to be handled under his ministry and not through the provincial administration. Obviously, that is a budget issue and I hope that when the issue comes up, he will have enough time to explain how that will be done.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that a few things have been procured, which the hon. Member says he has not seen. Is the hon. Minister able to confirm how much money is required for the remaining items so that the hon. Member of Parliament can then engage the ministry on the procurement process of some of these items? How many are we looking at in terms of computers? They appear to be very small items? How much is required for these items?

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, as you would imagine, I cannot know off the cuff how much is required because it depends on the designs and models that we would like to procure. As for the things that were supposed to be bought, all of them have been bought. Except that perhaps, the hon. Member did not pick that I was referencing a number of them as having been purchased at the provincial level or in the provinces, the ten provinces not in the districts.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, permit me to say this; for people to appreciate what every Government is doing, it is what it tells the nation what it has done. The Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) is the biggest news organisation that we have in the country. The hon. Members on the right have done much, which is supposed to be aired by ZANIS. All we hear are the negatives of the Copperbelt and Lusaka. We do not hear the positives happening in the rural areas because ZANIS has no equipment.

Madam Speaker, now that the Government has realised that ZANIS was neglected and there is a need to revamp it, will we see an improved budget next year, so that the people of Nyimba should not just have technicians, but journalists with proper equipment? It would not be proper for the ministry to bring in equipment, like cameras, yet there are no journalists to use them. Therefore, are we going to see an improved budget next year, so that the people out there can appreciate what is happening either in Chadiza or Nyimba?

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, indeed, I must agree with the hon. Member that a lot more is being done out there by the New Dawn Administration which needs to be heard by the citizens at large, hence, the focus on trying to capacitate ZANIS even more.

Madam Speaker, as to whether there will be an improved budget for ZANIS, that is the job that this Parliament does; to expropriate or allocate funding to spending agencies. The Ministry of Information and Media and ZANIS will be one of them. I think that the message is well-heard out. I would like to indicate here and now that the state of ZANIS in Chadiza is just like the state of ZANIS in most districts. The Ndola ZANIS office is like a ghost office, and this tells you the state of the economy which this Administration inherited. We are now beginning to reconstruct bit by bit so that going forward as we attain debt restructuring and spend national resources prudently under the leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema, institutions like ZANIS that were neglected will be put in the frontline and become beneficiaries. So, that we can deliver a better service as ZANIS to our citizenry.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was about to ask a question.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the people of Chama South, the situation in Chadiza is no different from that in Chama. I presume it could be the entire nation.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Members!

Mr Mung’andu: Is the hon. Minister in a position, probably, to allow hon. Members to use part of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF)? He can guide us on what information officers need. We are doing a lot in rural areas. ZANIS is not only in provincial centres. Officers have to travel a distance of more than 400 km, in the case of Chama, for them to gather news if the equipment is only in Chipata. Is the hon. Minister in a position, probably, to give us specifications of what is needed? Maybe, through the CDF, we can purchase equipment so that the entire nation is informed of what is happening in our rural constituencies.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama South for that question.

Let me also indicate that the hon. Member for Chama South, more often than not, asks very progressive questions, and offers advice to the Government. This is how it should be.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member’s advice is well taken. As you may know, we are a listening Government. I am aware of some constituencies, such as Chienge, which have already gone ahead to purchase small accessories such as laptops and cameras using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The only thing they are asking the ministry to do is to make transportation available so that the items they have bought can be put to good use. I got a briefing from the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge that the CDF is doing wonders in Chienge. She would like the whole nation to know what the CDF is doing in Chienge just as in Chama South.

Madam Speaker, I think that the hon. Member’s advice is well meant. We can work together and share information on the specification of what is needed to be bought. I would like to encourage other hon. Members who have the fiscal space to help ZANIS by purchasing equipment. After all, information is power. That information is important to the voters for them to know how well hon. Members are working. We are the Government, all of us.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Daka (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I acknowledge the hon. Minister’s responses. However, if we are to rank the needs of this office in my constituency, transport lies in a critical position. To that effect, is it possible that the hon. Minister can arrange for any alternative form of transport so that we at least make this office mobile? As he has alluded to, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has done a lot, including in my constituency, but most people are in the dark. Most people do not know about the projects that are being implemented all over my constituency. So, is it possible to arrange an alternative vehicle so that the officers become mobile?

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I would be hesitant to make commitments ex-tempo on the Floor of the House, but I hear the need for transport. Indeed, there is a need for transport for all ZANIS district offices. The ZANIS, in almost all the districts, has no transport. So, transport is a priority for the ministry to capacitate ZANIS. We also know that His Excellency the President has been talking at various forums about the need for our people to have adequate information, particularly feedback from the Government. So, I think that ZANIS is the right vehicle to exploit the opportunity for the citizens to talk to their Government about what is happening on the ground. That is why yesterday we opened a workshop that will run for five days. We have called ZANIS district information officers from across the ten provinces of Zambia. They are in Lusaka for capacity building as we look forward to additional funding for ZANIS and more equipment that they are going to use.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

I will take the last three questions from the hon. Member for Bwacha, the hon. Member for Pemba and the hon. Member for Sinazongwe.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to pose a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Information and Media.

Madam Speaker, in his response to one of the supplementary questions posed by one of the hon. Members, the hon. Minister submitted that the budget line for ZANIS sits with the provinces and his considered view was that in the 2025 Budget, it shifts from the provinces to his line ministry. Is that not departing from the Government's policy of decentralisation and also taking the resources from the centre to the districts and the provinces?

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, in answering that question, I want to say that there is no nexus, whatsoever, between the Decentralising Policy of the Government and proposal to put the funding or budgeting of ZANIS under its parent ministry. The ZANIS, unlike the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), which is an autonomous parastatal, is a department under the Ministry of Information and Media. That is where it belongs. So, it is only appropriate that its funding be contained within the ministry so that we can lobby better than when the funding comes from the province, which overlooks a number of ministries. Many times, there is no proper funding for individual entities under the charge of the provincial administration. The hon. Member was Minister of a province like me.

Mr Mushanga: I was Deputy Minister.

Mr Mweetwa: I mean Deputy Minister. So, he understands how these things work. The ZANIS is a department under the Ministry of Information and Media and that is the right place for it to operate from.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Madam Speaker, surely like the hon. Minister rightly indicated, information is power. The Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) is at the centre of information dissemination in every district. However, it is true that ZANIS has many challenges. One of its challenges in most districts is the issue of accommodation and office space. In the long run, will the hon. Minister consider constructing offices for ZANIS in all the districts?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let us not expand the question. The question is very specific.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague, the hon. Member for Pemba, for highlighting the plight of workers at ZANIS. The workers have challenges with office space, furniture and a number of other issues that have already been highlighted. We can only take note and thank the hon. Member once more for highlighting these issues. We think that under the leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema, progressively, these things will be tackled one by one.

Madam Speaker, by 2026, we expect ZANIS to be in a different form and shape. Further, by 2031, we expect ZANIS to compete at the highest level. In fact, 2031 is very far because only yesterday, I asked the Permanent Secretary (PS) of my ministry that we finalise on ensuring that ZANIS Television (TV) goes on live and becomes independent television and not rely on ZNBC. So, that is the direction we are taking. With the prudent management of resources that President Hakainde Hichilema has promulgated, where savings are directed into investments, we now foresee a situation in which funding to Governments departments will be operational, and we are now cascading into equipping them with the capacity to execute their mandate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sialubalo (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is very much aware of the employment modalities that were used in the past. What I want to know is whether the hon. Minister has any deliberate plan of re-orienting ZANIS staff so that there is capacity building on their part and also perfection in their work.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, indeed, that was my precedent message to the question, that as we speak, all ZANIS District Information Officers (DIOs) have been called from across the ten provinces and are undergoing capacity building, here in Lusaka. That is where we are. Let me also take this opportunity to indicate that under the new establishment, which was approved, ZANIS will be expanding its structure in terms of the number of workers. The workers will be beyond 800 and that is in line with the realisation that ZANIS, as the institution, should be fully functional to ensure that information about Government programmes and projects reaches out to the people. People should get the information they require so that they can make informed choices as they participate in the governance of their country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, before I ask my question, I would like to say that I miss Hon. J. E. Banda and I continue to wish him well.

REHABILITATION OF FM RADIO TRANSMITTERS IN CHILUBI DISTRICT

373. Mr Fube asked the Minister of Information and Media:

when the Government will rehabilitate the Frequency Modulation (FM) radio transmitters in Chilubi District;
what the estimated cost of the project is; and
why it has taken long to rehabilitate the transmitters.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, regarding when the Government will rehabilitate the Frequency Modulation (FM) Radio Transmitter in Chilubi Island, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), has provided Radio 1 and 2 FM transmitters located at Chilubi Island and only lost transmission for Radio 2 on 9^th January, 2024. The Radio 2 FM transmission was restored on 24^th January, 2024, after the faulty equipment was repaired by ZNBC engineers. However, the current transmission coverage is only for Chilubi Island. In future, the Government will consider up-grading the transmitters to improve coverage in the area.

Madam Speaker, the project to upgrade the FM Radio 1 and 2 is estimated to cost K1.2 million. Additionally, the ZNBC has already procured twenty transmitters at the value of K50 million to be distributed to areas where there is need, that need boosting of transmission services of the radio frequencies.

Madam Speaker, the Rural FM Expansion Project is an on-going project being undertaken by the Government of the Republic of Zambia through the ZNBC. The issue of upgrading some transmitters to improve coverage in some districts will be considered in the next phase of the project.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I want to know whether the hon. Minister is aware that before 9^th January, 2024, Chilubi had been experiencing problems with both Radio 1 and 2 FM transmitters. Is the hon. Minister aware of that?

Madam Speaker, let me ride on the same question or, maybe, I can ask the second question later?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You have two allocations.

Mr Fube: Okay.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let us start with that one.

Mr Fube: Okay.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I am aware to the extent that the hon. Member asked a question relating to the breakdown in transmission to which we have adequately responded.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, now that the hon. Minister is aware, is he aware that Chilubi is not Chilubi Island only –

Mr Amutike: Are you aware?

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Hello!

Am I protected, Madam Speaker?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members! Let us give him the chance to speak.

You can continue, hon. Member for Chilubi.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, thank you for your protection.

Madam Speaker, Chilubi comprises of Chilubi Mainland, Chilubi Island and the swamps. When we look at the mass in terms of land, the area that is being covered could be the smallest if we are to consider mass. Chilubi Island has about ten wards. Thirteen wards are in the swamps and eleven wards are on the mainland. So, what is being covered, is a very small radius. The hon. Minister mentioned of a K1.2 million investment and we hoped that there will be some upgrade of some sort especially with the radius in terms of coverage. So, when are we likely to have the K1.2 million, especially with the boost that we should have an upgraded radius, which should cover the whole Chilubi?

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, earlier on, I did indicate that the ZNBC has already procured twenty transmitters that are to be dotted in those areas of need. The areas of need will be informed by experts on the ground and such information is very valuable for us through the ZNBC to be take into account.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has partially answered my question though I still want to press on. The fact that the Government has procured twenty pieces of transmission equipment and is aware that Chilubi is having problems in terms of transmission, when are the people of Chilubi going to benefit from those twenty transmitters, which have already been bought? Do they have to wait to be advised when allocation will be done when the hon. Minister is already aware that Chilubi has problems? Why not promise the hon. Member who is here right now because I know that the people of Chilubi are anxious? They are very happy to see that the hon. Member has asked this question. The hon. Minister of Information and Media is making promises, yet he has the equipment.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the question, save to indicate that if it were, indeed, a possibility, that as and when an hon. Minister is standing and there is a need, we begin to promise to act there and then, we would end up with a very haphazard way of managing national resources. It has to be methodical and systematic.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

_____

MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LEGAL AFFAIRS, HUMAN RIGHTS AND GOVERNANCE ON THE FIGHT AGAINST CORRUPTION IN ZAMBIA

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance on the Fight Against Corruption in Zambia, for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 21^st June, 2024.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, in accordance with the terms of reference set out in Standing Orders No. 209 (f) and 210 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2024, the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance considered a topic entitled, “The Fight Against Corruption in Zambia”.

Madam Speaker, as you are aware, the Committee requested for written memoranda from stakeholders on the topical issue and undertook local tours to four provinces, namely Lusaka, Central, Copperbelt and North-Western. This accorded your Committee an opportunity to gain first-hand information on the efforts various players are making in the fight against corruption and also on the challenges that institutions involved in the fight against corruption are facing in the discharge of their mandate.

Madam Speaker, since the hon. Members of this august House have had an opportunity to read your Committee’s report, I will highlight only a few concerns encountered by your Committee.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, your Committee wishes to state that it abhors corruption of all forms. Your Committee strongly urges all citizens to look at corruption as a crime against humanity. Corruption deprives citizens of much-needed service delivery in all sectors such as health and education. All hon. Members will agree that corruption is a cancer that must be fought by all who wish to see our great country soar. The Committee acknowledges the existence of a legal and policy framework together with institutions mandated to fight corruption in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) through its governing law, the Anti-Corruption Act No. 3 of 2012, is –

Mr Kafwaya stood behind the seats while chatting with a colleague.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Hon. Member for Lunte, do you have a seat?

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya pointed at his seat.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you, please, resume your seat. You are distracting the proceedings of the House. Please, resume your seat or ask the hon. Member you are chatting with to walk out of the House so you can go caucus. Then you can come back.

Mr Kafwaya bowed to the Chair and resumed his seat.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member will continue.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity again. I will repeat what I said.

Madam Speaker, the ACC through its governing law, the Anti-Corruption Act No. 3 of 2012, is mandated to provide for the prevention, detection, investigation, prosecution and punishment of corrupt practices and related offences. This is based on the rule of law, integrity, transparency, accountability and management of public affairs and property. The commission is also mandated to provide for the development, implementation, and maintenance of co-ordinated anti-corruption strategies through the promotion of public participation.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that the key pieces of legislation that govern the fight against corruption in Zambia are adequate. An issue of concern for your Committee, however, is the definition of public officer in Article 266 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia as compared with the definition of Section 3 of the Anti-Corruption Act. The much narrower definition in the Constitution presents a challenge to the fight against corruption.

Madam Speaker, the definition of public officer in the Constitution, which is the Supreme law of the land, excludes certain officers like the Permanent Secretaries (PSs), Judges and other judicial officers while the Anti-Corruption Act includes them. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Anti-Corruption Act should be amended to redefine public officers and define other office holders who should be amenable such as constitutional office holders and judicial officers as per the definition of the Constitution and to extend the commission's mandate to these officers.

Madam Speaker, Section 11 of the Anti-Corruption Act empowers the Director-General of the ACC as the only person who can order for investigations and also call for their end. Your Committee is of the view that such a provision is susceptible to abuse by the Director-General. Your Committee recommends, therefore, that this provision must be amended so that certain categories of investigations officers can have powers upon receipt of a complaint or corruption report on reasonable suspicion to start the process of investigations and only allow the Director-General to give consent to prosecute upon being furnished with a certificate of investigation.

Madam Speaker, Section 64 of the Anti-Corruption Act provides that the power to give consent to prosecute lies with the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP). Your Committee views this as a hindrance and challenge to the fight against corruption. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the power to grant consent to prosecute corruption cases should be reposed in the ACC Director General thus; this will work in line with the creation of the specialised division for the Financial Crimes Court, which has a time bar in that, the Director-General upon satisfaction that there is a prima facie case as produced by the officers, will then consent for immediate prosecution. Under the current regime, the DPP needs to conduct his own due diligence before granting consent and can also enter a nolle prosequis without obligation to explain. In fact, the DPP does not even need to consult the ACC Director-General who established the case and satisfied himself or herself that there was improbable cause.

Madam Speaker the role of the whistle-blower in the fight against corruption should not be underestimated. A factor that is an impediment to the fight against corruption is the inadequate provision for the protection of a whistle-blower. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that whistle-blower protection be enhanced and that rewards be provided for the whistle-blower upon successful conviction.

Madam Speaker, I am confident that the commendations by your Committee in this report will receive the necessary urgent attention so that this terrible cancer can be managed effectively. Allow me to render my sincere gratitude to all the stakeholders who gave both written and oral submissions which greatly assisted your Committee in its work.

I wish to conclude by thanking your Office, Madam Speaker, and also the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Fube: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, in seconding the Motion, allow me to thank the Chairperson who has ably moved the Motion as it was discussed by your Committee.

Madam Speaker, I will try to theme my submission in three parts; management of the forfeited properties, integrity committees and lastly the gift policy in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, when we were undertaking tours, it came out so strongly that property of high value is being forfeited to the State, but the law enforcement agencies involved in making sure that this property is forfeited to the State actually have challenges like transport, accommodation and other instruments. For instance, when we were at the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) Headquarters, we found that there was no power, yet among the items that the ACC had seized was a high-value generator that it would have used to power the housing system so that they could carry out its work properly.

Madam Speaker, institutions like the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and ACC are currently renting office space and this has compromised their work because they cannot install security instruments on rented accommodation, which can help them facilitate the fight against corruption.

Madam Speaker, I would like to state that there is petty and grand corruption. This means that everybody is involved in the circle of corruption. Corruption is not just associated with one group, rather it involves everybody and this was strongly emphasised in the report.

Madam Speaker, an issue of great concern also is where the ACC Headquarters is positioned. The House may note that the ACC Headquarters is situated in the central business district, where there is a lot of noise and activities going on. So, that is not a conducive environment.

Madam Speaker, at this point, allow me to underscore that the definition of public officer that the chairperson referred to earlier contradicts the definition in the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land and is narrower than that in Section 3 of the Anti-Corruption Act. This means that if any amendments have to be made, it has to be the Constitution because there was a conflict where we could not amend the Act to fit into the Constitution. This is because the definition in Article 266 is narrower than the one in the prinicpal Act, which is the Anti-Corruption Act, and that was the position.

Madam Speaker, the setting up of integrity committees was welcomed by different stakeholders, and they have been playing more of the role of grandstanding than that of actual delivery vehicles to fight against corruption, especially in workplaces. To underscore this, integrity committees, currently, seem to be reporting to the ACC, but there was a strong submission that they should be housed under the Office of the Public Protector looking at the constitutional mandate given to the Public Protector.

On this score, it envisaged that the reporting line could improve because some of the issues may involve anti-corruption officers and the Public Protector’s Office was better positioned to tackle such.

Madam Speaker, I can see that the new hon. Minister of Justice is stressing herself. I think she is doing so in gearing to amend the definition of the public officer in the Constitution so that it matches with the one in Anti-Corruption Act. I have all the confidence that the hon. Minister is up to the game.

Madam Speaker, I want to underscore the issue of the gift policy. An analysis was done in comparison with what is happening in other countries. Currently, Zambia does not have a gift policy. Many public officers, as referred to also in Section 3 of the Anti-Corruption Act, do not know where a gift starts and ends and at what point it goes into the domain of corruption. This was over-emphasised. I will give an example and I hope it will not be offensive. An investor will go to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and give a gift to the Permanent Secretary (PS) or the hon. Minister when he is paying a courtesy call. At the same time, the investor is also interested in receiving mining licences. At the end of the day, the hon. Minister or PS could have received a gift of about US$1 million. We know how tempting money is and they may not know where to take it because there is no clear gift policy. US$1 million is something that we cannot call a gift, but an inducement towards something. This may cause conflict in the way we fight corruption.

Madam Speaker, another factor that was emphasised is that since corruption is petty and grand, there was a need for public awareness to be done at different levels and to involve traditional leaders so that it becomes embedded.

Madam Speaker, one thing that was emphasised in line with the gift policy is that of our national values enshrined in Article 8 of the Constitution. There was a need for the anti-corruption fight to match with the national values that are enshrined in Article 8 so that as people grow, they are growing the culture and values that they envisage.

Madam Speaker, having said that, I submit that the ball is now in the court of the hon. Minister of Justice. She should to make sure that certain issues that have to do with some legal surgery on the legal framework are attended to.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Sikongo, to say a few words to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House. Firstly, allow me to thank my brother, the hon. Member for Kalabo Central, for the able manner in which he has moved the Motion, as well as my brother from Chilubi for seconding the Motion.

Madam Speaker, indeed, corruption is a cancer that we all must fight very hard. Unfortunately, as a country, this cancer went so deep into our flesh to the extent that if we pay lip service to it, it may defeat us at the end of the day. I would like to mention that Sikongo is underdeveloped to a large extent because of the corruption that we have had in this country for a long time.

Madam Speaker, sadly for me, whenever this discussion of corruption comes up, what comes to my mind, is the Patriotic Front (PF). When I mention PF, I mean the PF of the former President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, and not the one for Hon. Sampa, Member of Parliament for Matero.

Madam Speaker, I know that when we mention these things, other people may think we are just trying to be personal. I want us to be very realistic. Corruption was so rampant in the previous Administration, and this is evident in a number of cases that are before the courts of law. Let us pick it from there and ensure that this fight is not politicised, because it is a fight that all of us are supposed to pay attention to, regardless of our political affiliation, for the betterment of our country. Many resources have been lost due to corrupt activities and they could have been used to move this country to a very higher level in terms of development.

Madam Speaker, unfortunately, those who are corrupt are like drug dealers. Every time they try to come up with new approaches and ways of how –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, in reference to Standing Order No. 71, I rise on this point of order on my hon. Colleague, the Member of Parliament for Sikongo. I do so on his choice to draw in the Patriotic Front (PF) in his discourse and in a very bad way.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Sikongo is a United Party for National Development (UPND) Member of Parliament who knows that lithium was looted in this Administration and was brought back at the border. He knows that sugilite was looted and the individuals involved were caught.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, earlier today, we were discussing the hunting concessions, which were illegally cancelled. We have been talking about the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) and fuel procurements.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, this hon. Colleague cannot –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member, I said order hon. Members in order for you to continue smoothly and wind up.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, thank you. I wind up by saying that more than 400 people are corruptly bunched at the Cabinet Office against ...

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: ... Government procedures. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Sikongo in order to apportion corruption to the PF when he knows that corruption has increased under the current regime? Even in this report, is clear that corruption has become rampant under the UPND Government?

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, is he in order to talk like that?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what you have brought out is not important at this point. What is important is that the report, is very specific on the matter of fighting corruption. It does not mention the United Party for National Development (UPND) or the Patriotic Front (PF). It is just a report telling us what is limiting the country to fight corruption and what the challenges are. Is the law okay, with regard to corruption? What challenges are the implementing institutions facing?

So, hon. Members, let us not waste time. The report is very clear. The people want to listen to this very important report. Let us restrict ourselves to debating the report so that we make progress. I want as many hon. Members to debate this very important report.

The hon. Member may continue with that guidance.

Mr Simushi: Madam Speaker, I was just giving a preamble because we cannot talk about corruption in a vacuum. The fact that this report had to be tabled or people had to go out and look at this issue, is because corruption is there. So, I was just giving a preamble of where we are coming from.

Madam Speaker, I was saying that corruption can be likened to drug dealers, who are always coming up with new ways and means on how to beat the game. So, my appeal to this Government, the New Dawn Administration, is to be alert because those who are corrupt can start coming up with new means and ways of how they can beat the law enforcement agencies.

Madam Speaker, I am comforted by the fact that the report, of course, mentions that in terms of legal provision, this country, is well provided for. However, I just want to caution that we should not keep our eyes closed because those who are corrupt are very cunning. They can come up with anything.

Madam Speaker, the fight against corruption is so important. It is, indeed, true that those who are given the responsibility to fight on our behalf; the law enforcement agencies, need support in terms of funding, technology equipment, accommodation and with other issues that have been brought out, especially the challenges that they are facing. My appeal is that the New Dawn Administration should take time to look at these issues seriously so that the officers do not find themselves in corrupt vices themselves. If the officers are motivated properly, they might try to find means and ways of how they can survive. This is because those who are corrupt have huge sums of money, and they can easily buy their way out. Fighting corruption becomes very difficult because those who are corrupt can use their money to buy their way out of cases.

Madam Speaker, I do not want to be political. I am mentioning things as they are. The report talks about the forfeiture of properties of those who are corrupt. I think we have seen in our country, how much we have managed to recover from those who have looted our resources. The good thing is the fact that the administration that we have of President Hakainde Hichilema, is putting the resources that are being recovered to good use. I think that should be commended. That is how it should be because we are not seeing an administration that is hiding the resources that are being collected from those who are corrupt.

Madam Speaker, I want to end by saying that, the report, also talks about human rights. Human rights are very important to our people. One of the human rights is the freedom of expression. People are given the freedom to express themselves freely. However, instead of giving credible checks and balances to the Ruling Party, some people start talking about issues that are not relevant. I think that is not good.

Madam Speaker, what we want to see in this country is an opposition that is able to give credible checks and balances in order to contribute positively to the development of our country. I find it very interesting that in this country, the Opposition thinks that it is not part and parcel of developing the country. The Opposition wants to oppose even the development that is being done in its own country. So, my appeal to my hon. Colleagues who are in the Opposition is that; even when they are in the Opposition, they are still part of the development process of the nation. So, I urge them to oppose credibly because the people out there are still counting on them to help in the development discourse of our country.

Madam Speaker, finally, I want to say that human rights are very important. We have seen in the past how one report talked about electoral violence and how we use it to disadvantage our country. We had a situation in which people did not want to go to school because they thought being commanders was the shortcut to being rich.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simushi: Madam Speaker, we want to see a situation like the one we are seeing now, where the President is encouraging free education to be given to our people so that they know the importance of education and can be able to contribute positively. Let us not use our youths to fight for us as politicians. Let us use our youths to develop this country by taking them to school and empowering them with skills so that they are able to build schools and classroom blocks, that we are working on using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). We need to give youths employment like what we have seen the New Dawn Administration doing.

Madam Speaker, I do not want to go very far. I would like to end by saying that what you seeing right now, is as result of a leadership, which is focused and knows what it is doing. So, President Hakainde Hichilema should be commended for the manner in which he is taking the fight against corruption and the way he is handling human rights. As we speak, the democratic space has been expanded as opposed to what we hear of it shrinking.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, there is no need to raise points of order while we are debating the report. You will be given chance to debate and the hon. Minister will come and respond.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to say a few words to the debate on the report by your Committee on the fight against corruption.

Madam Speaker, I must state from the preamble that corruption has denied countries of the much-needed resources for development. However, the fight against corruption is very complicated and sophisticated. We stand to lose, if we do not pay attention to what ought to be done.

Madam Speaker, I believe that if we are to effectively fight or win the fight against corruption, it must start from Article No. 8 of our Constitution, which brings out issues of our values, morals and ethics.

Madam Speaker, we need to go back to the basics. A child must be trained to grow up uprightly with good moral values. Even the bible states that if you train a child to grow up in good ways when it grows up, it will not depart from those ways. Some of us today, no matter how much one flips the pages, one will not antagonise us on corruption issues because we were brought up very well. That is what we need to do.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, we need to go back to the basics and start to train our children to grow up with good moral values.

Madam Speaker, the fight against corruption is dependent on institutions such as the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), courts and the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP). For as long as these institutions are not independent or autonomous, we stand to lose this fight.

Madam Speaker, the Constitution is supreme to any law. In this august House, our primary role is to legislate, to come up with laws that would help us even in the fight against corruption. However, we must ensure that we do not enact laws that are against the supremacy of the Constitution, or what the Constitution dictates.

Madam Speaker, in this discussion, I want to focus on one particular law, the law on the forfeiture of proceeds of crime. The Constitution places the burden of proof on the people who allege that you have committed a crime. If anyone alleges that Binwell has committed a crime, the Constitution dictates that I must prove that I committed that crime. So, any law that shifts that burden is null and void because the Constitution is supreme.

Madam Speaker, again, the Constitution emphasises on innocence before a competent court proves you otherwise. Those two principles in our laws are sacrosanct. The burden of proof and the presumption of innocence are important. The law on the forfeiture of proceeds of crime, unfortunately, over the years, and I am not referring to the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, has been highly abused and has been used as a tool to fix political opponents.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that the Forfeiture of Proceeds of Crime Act provides for confiscation of proceeds of crime. Only when you are satisfied that a property is a proceed of crime, can you confiscate. It also provides for the deprivation of any person of any proceeds, benefit, or property.

The abuse, Madam Speaker, is to the effect that today, law enforcement agencies will deprive you of your benefits in a property based on an assumption that you have committed a crime, which is totally against the Constitution. Only until law enforcement agencies prove by all reasonable standards that I have committed a crime, can they confiscate and deprive me of a benefit of something that I own.

Madam Speaker, we, as the august House ought to start re-looking at some provisions in the law. It may look funny and fancy today to see your friend antagonised in the media that he is involved in corruption, and his houses are immediately repossessed, deprived or taken away, only after ten years of the case being disposed of, he is found innocent. Can you imagine the anguish in the period when his property would have been in the hands of the State? That law is not good. It needs to be re-looked at. I am prepared to support any reasonable fight against corruption, but not anything that goes otherwise to antagonise citizens based on mere assumptions or allegations. There must be proof that I have committed a crime. A competent court must rule and convict me. That is when the State must come in.

Madam Speaker, the danger is this; some hon. Members of Parliament who are here, on the left and right have acquired wealth. I am not saying Hon. Jack Mwiimbu has acquired wealth, but I am saying some hon. Members have acquired wealth.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Let us not debate ourselves.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, forgive me.

Madam Speaker, because all of us are working, we have acquired wealth. We have built houses.

Mrs Chonya: We are not allowed to debate ourselves.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, this law, when the time comes, will make the police take away that property you would have acquired under sweat until the matter is disposed of by the courts, God forbid, after ten years. This is why, for me, we must check this law.

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the issue on sensationalism. People have built names over the years. You allege that I have committed a crime. You go to the media and parade me. When I am found innocent after twenty years, are you going to help clean up my name? Yes, I support the fight against corruption, but it must be done so within the confines of the law and bearing in mind that the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, dictates that everybody is innocent until proven otherwise.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sialubalo (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me an opportunity on behalf of the people of Sinazongwe to debate your Committee’s report, which was ably moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central and seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi.

Madam Speaker, the challenges that have been raised in the report are very genuine. If we want to fight the corruption of yesterday, we should be very willing to fight the corruption of today so that we can protect the resources for future generations.

Madam Speaker, the issue of corruption reminds me of the days when I was young and used to hunt in the village. I never had a gun. I would use dogs and a spear. I used to care for my dogs, they were well-fed. I am not referring to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) as dogs, no. I am just giving you a typical example of how I traversed my life. When I went to hunt and came back with an animal, my father used to give me a special steak. That was one way of rewarding me so that tomorrow I can go back in the bush and hunt.

Madam Speaker, the same applies to the ACC officers. They are risking their lives. As the chairperson of your Committee alluded to, the officers are risking their lives because the people involved in corrupt activities are hefty in resources. However, look at the conditions of service for the ACC workers. They do not have transportation. Talk time and office accommodation are a challenge. Their take-home pay is also a challenge.

Madam Speaker, fighting billionaires, is not a joke. A person can be tempted if we do not take a radical stance of handsomely rewarding these people. If we want to achieve a meaningful fight, let us look at the conditions of service for the gallant men and women who are doing a noble job to see to it that the resources meant for our future generation and the country are protected.

Mr B. Mpundu: Bushe Kasauta ninshi afwele?

Interruptions

Mr Michelo left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I did not give you the Floor. I think, there is a procedure that we have to follow. If somebody is not appropriately dressed, there is a procedure to follow.

Hon. Member for Sinazongwe, you may continue.

Mr Sialubalo: Madam Speaker, even if it means sacrifice, for how long are our gallant men/ women going to sacrifice? At the end of the day, the time will come when they will retire, and they will meet the same people they grabbed illegal property from. What is their safety? What is there for them to say, even when they leave employment, they will not end up being destitute. Looking at the noble job that they are doing, I believe that the New Dawn Administration needs to take the stance very seriously. Firstly, we have to look at rewarding our great gallant men and women. Secondly, the whistle-blowers as has been reported by your Committee, are doing a great job, but at what expense? What do they take home for risking their lives? Corrupt people are very sophisticated. Someone should have somewhere to lean in an event that anything happened to them. So, we need to take this stance very seriously.

Madam Speaker, it takes long for the properties that are being recovered to be disposed of. By the time they are being disposed of, the value would have been lost. There should be a timeframe that should be put in the law to say, within such a period, all the assets and properties should be exposed so that resources are taken to where they belong. If we stand together as hon. Members of Parliament to fight corruption, each constituency under the able leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema, can walk away with even over K100 million per annum under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) because we are seeing where resources are going. As hon. Members of Parliament, we need to work hand in hand with the ACC and help it to perform its noble duty.

With these few words, I do support your Committee’s report.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, thank you …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ema Leaders of Opposition aba.

Mr Mundubile: ... for this opportunity to add my views on the report on the Floor of this House.

Madam Speaker, I will start by joining others who have sent their wishes to Hon. J. E. Banda, our Member of Parliament who is somewhere in the Eastern Province under police custody. We wish him well.

Madam Speaker, I will start by agreeing with the mover of the Motion where your Committee made observations that there is a limited scope within which the fight against corruption is implemented.

Madam Speaker, to properly fight corruption, we first must understand and be able to properly define what corruption is. In other jurisdictions, there is a broadened definition of corruption. Corruption should not be understood to be a mere taking or giving of bribes, but it involves actions that put private interest over and above public interest. This will be in relation to administration, policy, and legislation. So, with that broadened definition of corruption, we should be able to properly fight corruption. In other words, we can come up with a simple test. When there is a policy from the Government, put it to the test. Was that particular policy in favour of private capital or public interest? The answers are all there to see. The moment we are able to define corruption, we will then be able to see the corruption in some of the policy decisions that governments take.

For example, Madam Speaker, there is a known mining house that stole US$2.5 billion from the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines – Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH), and the matter was before the police. Directors of that company were actually arrested. An hon. Minister comes up, withdraws the case and US$2.5 billion is gone. In that particular case, if we were able to put that action to test, we all should be able to see without any difficulty that there was something wrong. There are restriction orders currently on people’s apartments, three to five flats, a truck, and two to five vehicles and the people involved are appearing before the police. However, the directors who took away the wealth of this country to the tune of US$2.5 billion are out there enjoying the money. What motivated that hon. Minister to make such a decision? Those are questions that must be asked. We are talking about recoveries of goods obtained corruptly. Why should we abandon US$2.5 billion properly earned by one of the corporate bodies and chase after flats in Kabwata, Ibex Hill, and say we are fighting corruption?

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, we have to define corruption for what it is. Once we put the definition of corruption in its proper context, we begin to see through a lens. If you look at road concessions, for instance, being given today, you will be able to see and realise that, indeed, some of these decisions are not made in public interest, but private interest. How then can it be, that with all the collective wisdom seated here, some gentleman just walks in and says, “I am coming to borrow money from your institution and I am going to build you a road, but I will collect tolls for the next twenty years.”

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, that is an insult to the collective wisdom of the Zambian people because that is something we can do on our own. The question still remains. Let us put that to the test. Was the decision at that particular point made in public interest or private interest?

Mr Kapyanga: Private interest.

Mr Mundubile: Madam, Speaker, a mining house owes the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) US$1 billion. Right now, we are at the International Monetary Fund (IMF) looking for US$1.3 billion. There is US$1 billion owed to us and the minority shareholder of that company now reviews to us that tax has been forgiven, it is only going to pay US$23 million. What corruption are we fighting? The question that begs is that, let us have a broadened definition of corruption.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, corruption is not the mere taking or giving of bribes...

Mr B. Mpundu: Ema debate aya.

Mr Mundubile: ... but it involves actions that put private interest over and above public interest. This is the real test that we have to put the right decisions through.

Madam Speaker, today, we have paper tigers coming in the name of Vietnamese investors to come and get 6 million ha of land. The transaction –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I think that matter was brought up during urgent matters without notice.

Mr Mundubile: Well guided, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We did not conclude on that. So, let us not mislead the public because we do not know. There was an assignment that was given to the hon. Member to file in a question on that.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, the law is very clear on the disposal of public assets. We have situations in which the Executive can ignore and abandon the law and go and transact on a public asset but, today, we are debating on the fight against corruption. This Parliament is there to provide oversight for and on behalf of the Zambian people that, if a particular asset that belongs to the Zambian people is about to be disposed of, it will come to the House of Representatives so that they have a voice. However, today we have transactions being conducted outside and away from this House, yet somebody is going to stand up and talk about the fight against corruption.

Madam Speaker, some people have been able to get away with corruption because we have narrowed the definition of corruption. I want to call upon the House today, to broaden the definition of corruption. We must look at the decisions that are made, the policies, administration, including legislation. Is this particular law being enacted in the interest of the public or, indeed, private capital?

Mr Simumba: Leader of Opposition.

Mr Mundubile: Is this policy in the interest of the private capital or the public? You will be able to see that some of the problems that we are facing today are self-made…

Mr Kapyanga: Yes!

Mr Mundubile: … because those who were charged with the responsibility to make decisions for and on behalf of the Zambian people made decisions in the interest of private capital at the expense of the public. The moment we change our lens and put on a fair lens, we will remove the politics out of that because it is about Zambia. If US$2.5 billion disappears, it is money taken away from Zambia. Should we wake up with a begging bowl to go and look for US$1.3 billion, yet we are losing US$2.5 billion? US$1 billion for the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) is lost just because a single individual makes decisions and says, “Forgive them, let them pay US$23 million.” So, we can imagine the work that the next Government will have of recovering monies starting from US$2.5 billion, US$1 billion, the road concessions, and the mines that were sold. It will, indeed, be a very huge task.

With those few remarks, Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Speaker, I immensely thank you for this opportunity to give a few thoughts on the Motion on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, I must start by saying that I am heavily burdened to contribute to the debate on this Motion because, sometimes, we discuss very good Motions, but we fail to implement what we debate on.

Madam Speaker, as already mentioned by those who debated before me, this matter is something that we need to address with the seriousness it deserves. I must say that all along, I have been very hopeful that the New Dawn Government is going to lead us in the fight against corruption and ensure that even if we do not wipe it out to zero per cent, at least, drastically reduce it. We are going to achieve more when we talk less and act more.

Madam Speaker, I am saying this because right now as I am speaking, thousands of bags of mealie meal are leaving Zambia into the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) through my constituency. I am not talking about two or three bags crossing per day, but thousands of bags crossing into the Congo. What upsets and frustrates me is the fact that this year we have a serious drought. We have no maize in our nation. Pardon me if this sounds unparliamentary, but how can a patriotic Zambian, someone in his right frame of mind, decide to betray the Zambian people by committing such atrocities? We know very well that we need every single grain that this country has. I am not talking about something that I have not seen, I have seen vehicles cross into the Congo and influential people, some of whom are cadres were saying they are in power and are raising money for 2026 campaigns, and mealie meal is crossing into the Congo. We are here talking about corruption and before we know it, the maize or resources that the Government has made a great effort to protect or try to alleviate poverty are being smuggled. On one side, the Government is making frantic efforts to save people from starvation and there are a few people who are busy taking mealie meal into the Congo. So, I stop and wonder. When we talk about some of these things, how serious are we? Perhaps, it is my personality that when I talk about something, I do not want it to be rhetoric. When I say or promise something, I want to live up to it.

Madam Speaker, I am not going to talk about many things except that which I believe risks our nation to go into starvation. We need to do something very urgently because one thing I know is we cannot fail to stop this scourge as long as we mean what we are saying. If you asked somebody if there was mealie meal crossing into Congo, you will be told yes, trucks with mealie meal crossed into Congo. I think that we need to be serious starting from the leadership. When we talk about something, we need to ensure that that thing is followed up and it is done.

Madam Speaker, I know that somebody said that the officers from the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) risk their lives and that they get little and so on and so forth. This has nothing to do with how much somebody gets. A corrupt person is corrupt. Whether you pay him in millions of dollars, he will still receive illegal resources.

Madam Speaker, I want to rest my case by saying that we are going to make a lot of progress as a nation when we talk about something and as leaders, we live up to it, and ensure that we follow through with what we have talked about. Otherwise, we will just be talking and year in and year out, nothing will be happening. I am saddened and heartbroken to see that despite making efforts, and having checkpoints everywhere in my constituency, mealie meal is going out. When are we going to be patriotic to our nation and care for one another and love our country?

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I wish to make my submission and support the report.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kabwata, please, may you use just a few minutes so that we close the debate.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the issue that we are talking about today saddens a lot of Zambians. Today, we are lamenting that children are not sitting on desks and schools are overcrowded. It is all because of the seed that was planted many years ago, the seed of corruption. Today, we are faced with this huge challenge. I could hear some people lamenting on the laws that were formulated in this House. That is why whenever we are formulating laws, let us ensure that we do not target individuals.

Madam Speaker, for us to fight corruption, we need to ensure that the education system of our country, starting from kindergarten, children know what corruption is all about. We know that in our curriculum, especially in civic education, there is a component of corruption, but we need to trickle it down for people to understand what corruption is.

Madam Speaker, I want to talk about breaking traditional beliefs. Not long ago, certain people believed that ubomba mwibala, alya mwibala.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayengwa: That is a dangerous cultural belief.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What does that mean, hon. Member?

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Speaker, those who work in the maize field, should always eat from the field where they are working. That is a very dangerous belief.

Madam Speaker, if we fail to break some of these traditional beliefs, our children will end up acquiring property, which they never worked for. This is why today this country is faced with this challenge. We see wives who were mere housewives acquiring property because of the traditional beliefs; ubomba mwibala alya mwibala. We need to break this traditional belief.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kabwata, it is like the owners of the phrase that you are using are not comfortable. Can you please, maybe, translate it for the last time.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Can you, please, make your debate flow without –

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Speaker, that is my mother tongue. I understand what it means and that is the reason we need to start breaking some of these traditional beliefs.

Madam Speaker, today, someone at the age of twenty- eight would have already amassed wealth of over K28 million. Where did he get the money from? If we want to fight corruption, let us ensure that we start breaking some of these traditional beliefs.

Madam Speaker, let me also talk about decentralisation. We need to ensure that the ACC offices are decentralised in all the districts. We have 116 districts, but only six districts have the presence of the ACC. So, we need to do a lot when it comes to that. Let us ensure that we employ more ACC officers and create a police unit within the ACC just like our colleagues from the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) have done.

Madam Speaker, the issue of concluding cases within a specified timeframe is a concern. Yes, I agree that His Excellency the President actually stated that there is a need to improve on how we finalise some of the cases. Right now, we are seeing cases of corruption being concluded within five months but in the past, we saw those who committed serious crimes hiding in the name of seeking medical attention and that is what has been happening. So, let us ensure that we work on some of those issues.

Madam Speaker, let me also talk about the issue of the forfeiture law that was talked about. I heard the way the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana lamented on the same issue. I totally agree with him because I believe that this law also needs to be looked at and amended because it does not favour those who ˗ Let me say it in this way; this law favours those people who are involving themselves in criminal activities. They would rather go and surrender just a quarter of it and keep the rest. So, let us ensure that we find some spanners and tighten up this law and ensure that the people who are involved in stealing are not given a chance.

Madam Speaker, the other challenge of this law is that most of the people who forfeit properties do not even forfeit everything. That is why I strongly believe that there is a need for us to amend this law. Disclosing how much money one acquired is also a challenge. So, we should make laws that will not only fight those who were there, but also stand the test of time and this is what we should always yearn to do as hon. Members of Parliament.

Madam Speaker, as I stated from the beginning, corruption is a serious cancer. If today, for instance, we steal from the poor or decide to pocket a sum of US$24 million, which is about K600 million, the ones who will suffer are the children who will be born after ten years. There will be a lack of medicine in hospitals, a lack of school desks in different schools and even the creation of employment will be a challenge.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I want to say that the good people of Kabwata support this report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Justice (Ms Kasune): Madam Speaker, I have followed the contributions made by the hon. Members and I will try to read my statement so that in the interest of time, I also respond to some of the issues raised by the hon. Members.

Madam Speaker, I thank the mover of the Motion and I want to say that he said that if we Zambians took it to heart, the debate that has been long would have been short. Indeed, corruption is a crime against humanity. It is, indeed, a cancer that all of us have to watch out for. This concerns all of us.

Madam Speaker, I also want to thank the seconder who articulated the issue of gifts. To what extent do we know that this is a genuine gift? To what extent does the gift become a way of softening our hearts so that when things are brought to our office we do not have the power that we should have?

Madam Speaker, allow me first of all, to appreciate all the hon. Members who have contributed to this very important report. Clearly, it shows that we as Zambians are beginning to be aware and concerned about the issues of corruption. I also want to commend the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance for the work done for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, as noted by your Committee, on page 1 of the report, corruption has remained a huge impediment to economic development that we need to gain as a nation. Therefore, ensuring an end to this vice in our country is a big concern for all of us, in particular, the New Dawn Government under his able leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema.

Madam Speaker, as rightly noted by stakeholders, Article 1, Clause 1 of the Constitution of Zambia being supreme, raises matters relating to the fight against corruption. We have taken note of the submissions rendered by all the stakeholders as well as the hon. Members of Parliament here this afternoon and the recommendations that your Committee also rendered from its tours and its observations. From this, we have taken key notes as the Ministry of Justice. We are, therefore, interested in aligning the definition of public officer with that which is provided in the Constitution of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I wish to indicate that the fight against corruption depends on the adequacy of laws in our country. Therefore, I am delighted that your Committee observed the inadequacies of the framework governing the fight against corruption in Zambia. We have duly taken note of your Committee’s observations and recommendations, especially the following:

the need to amend Section 11 of the Anti-Corruption Act of 2012, which vests the Director-General with the sole mandate to give consent for investigations as to the decentralisation of the power to the Director General to a head of investigations at every provincial Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) office as we decentralise this;
the need to amend Section 64 of the Anti-Corruption Act of 2012, by removing the requirement to obtain the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) before prosecuting a matter under the Anti-Corruption Act of 2012;
the need to have an existing policy as a guide to address the difference between what would amount to a gift, which the seconder alluded to; and
the need to amend the public interest disclosure of protecting the whistle-blowers as it is articulated in the Protection Whistle Blower Act No. 4 of 2010, to allow sufficient safeguards that guarantee the protection of whistle-blowers.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members also alluded to the fact that there will be a need for some incentives.

Madam Speaker, you are aware that the newly launched National Policy on Anti-Corruption provides a framework for preventing and combating corruption in a comprehensive, coordinated, and inclusive manner. Therefore, one of the main objectives of this policy, under His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, is to strengthen corruption prevention measures in public and private bodies. It is also important to strengthen transparency and accountability in public affairs and the delivery of public services. To add to that, it is also meant to strengthen institutional capacities of the ACC, the National Prosecutions Authority (NPA) and other law enforcement agencies, and also the point that the hon. Members raised of ensuring that there are more officers of the ACC.

Madam Speaker, there are many issues that were raised that I will not have much time to dive into, but believe that my ministry has noted all the concerns. One of the concerns that was brought forward by one hon. Member of Parliament is the review of the legislative framework on the Anti-Corruption Act. The Government under His Excellency is also reviewing this in a holistic manner including the definition of corruption that the hon. Members of Parliament did allude to.

Madam Speaker, in addition, I want to speak about the issues of the public persecutor in dealing with administration actions, practices and procedures of the state. His role is to advise State institutions and make recommendations to the state. It is in view of this observation that we feel that if this role is not protected, the integrity of the committee relating to both the public and the private sector will actually be misplaced as we look at the separation of powers.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members must note that the President of this country, President Hakainde Hichilema, has embarked on a very serious campaign to make sure that Zambia becomes like Singapore, where people are not celebrated for amassing wealth that was acquired dubiously. We, as a nation, need to get to a place where if someone amassed wealth in an incorrect manner he/she is frowned upon. Unfortunately, we have heard many times that people who actually amass wealth in a dubious manner are seen to be gods in a small way or celebrated and this is unpatriotic.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafulafuta reminded us of the importance of us being patriotic to this country and, indeed, to leave a Zambia that is free from corruption. I, therefore, want to assure this House that the Government under His able Leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema is committed to fighting corruption. It is to this end that I wish to state that the fight against corruption is applied to all of us and we all need to fight it together so the future generation finds a better society because, indeed, corruption is a cancer.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, let me thank all the hon. Members who have taken part in debating the Motion. I thank Hon. Simushi, Member of Parliament for Sikongo; Hon. B. Mpundu, Member of Parliament for Nkana; Hon. Sialubalo, Member of Parliament for Sinazongwe; Hon. Mundubile, Member of Parliament for Mporokoso; Hon. Mulebwa, Member of Parliament for Kafulafuta; Hon. Tayengwa, Member of Parliament for Kabwata; and finally, the hon. Minister of Justice.

Madam Speaker, I will not comment on the remarks passed by the hon. Members who debated as the hon. Minister has already done so.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1846 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 26^th June, 2024.

____________

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