Wednesday, 12^th June, 2024

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

FREE COMPREHENSIVE EYE SCREENING EXERCISE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that Dr Agarwal’s Eye Hospital has been granted permission to conduct a free comprehensive eye screening exercise for hon. Members of Parliament and staff. The exercise is aimed at promoting eye healthcare through early detection and treatment of common eye ailments.

The exercise will be conducted from Monday, 17^thJune to Thursday, 20^th June, 2024, from 0900 hours to 1600 hours and Friday, 21^st June, 2024, from 0900 hours to 1300 hours at the Main Reception area at Parliament Main Buildings.

Interested hon. Members are, therefore, encouraged to find time to participate in the exercise.

I thank you.

TWO-WEEK CULTURAL PROGRAMME

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the Orthodox Archdiocese of Zambia and Mozambique, in conjunction with the General Consulate of Hellas in Lusaka, has organised a two-week cultural programme dedicated to the Olympic Games, and Olympics ideal and spirit. The programme starts today, Wednesday, 12^thJune to Monday, 24^th June, 2024.

One of the activities lined up during the two-week cultural programme is the planting of an olive tree as a symbol of promoting peace. The olive trees to be planted were brought to Zambia by the Olympians from Archaia, Olympia, Greece.

The Rt. Hon. Madam Speaker will take part in the exercise by planting an olive tree within Parliament grounds on Thursday, 13^th June, 2024. This will be the first tree planted at a National Assembly in Africa under this programme. The planting of the tree will also be used as a platform to disseminate the “Speaker’s Plant a Tree Challenge.”

The tree planting exercise will be preceded by the official launch, by the Rt. Hon. Madam Speaker, of a two-day symposium in the Amphi-theater at Parliament Buildings.

 

In this regard all hon. Members of Parliament and staff are encouraged to attend this important event, which will take place at 0900 hours.

Attendance of the event is on voluntary basis.

I thank you.

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URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

MR KAPYANGA, HON. MEMBER FOR MPIKA, ON MR SIKUMBA, HON. MINISTER OF TOURISM, ON ANIMAL-HUMAN CONFLICT IN MPIKA

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise an urgent matter without notice, in accordance with Standing Order No.71, which I am sure Hon. Mung’andu does not know.

Madam Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia cancelled hunting concessions –

Madam Speaker: Sorry, just for guidance, we do not want to refer to a wrong Standing Order. The matter you are raising is under Standing Order No.142.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, hon. Member, be guided accordingly.

Hon. Member: Tababelengele!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, you may proceed. You have two minutes.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia cancelled hunting concessions in my constituency under Luwawata and Mpamazi. As a result, the population of animals has been growing. In this regard, there has been a rise in animal-human conflicts. In Nabwalya, every day, we receive reports of wild animals killing people and destroying houses. I was there last week up to Saturday. The situation is very, very bad. Therefore, I direct this urgent matter without notice at the hon. Minister of Tourism. He should send his officers on the ground to control the animals. Otherwise, we will not find any human being there because they would have been wiped out by wild animals.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

Madam Speaker: That matter is not urgent because it has been raised on several occasions on the Floor of this House and several ministerial statements have been delivered on the same issue. I think, even the hon. Minister has been on the Floor of this House to share the measuresthat have been put in place to control the human-animal conflicts. So, the hon. Member is advised to file in a question if he wants that particular matter to be addressed.

MR KANG’OMBE, HON. MEMBER FOR KAMFINSA, ONENG. NZOVU, HON. MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, ON THE LACK OF WATER SUPPLY DUE TO LOSS OF POWER

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise this very important urgent matter without notice. It is directed at the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Madam Speaker, we have inadequate power supply to various public facilities, including water utility companies in Zambia. You are aware that this matter has become a national concern. Kamfinsa Constituency, being one of the constituencies in Zambia, has been affected by the lack of water supply to essential public places such as health facilities. Residents have also been affected. This problem has even extended to other constituencies not only in Kitwe but also across the country.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister responsible for water in order to not come to this august House, to assure the public that there are measures being put in place to avoid loss of water supply to essential public services such as health facilities that constantly need water? Reference has been made to Kamfinsa, but I believe this is a national matter.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Kamfinsa. Yesterday, two matters were raised. One touched on cholera in Chipata because of water shortages due to the drought, and I directed that a statement be rendered tomorrow to address that issue. The other matter raised was that of power outages. Accordingly, the hon. Minister of Energy was directed to deliver a ministerial statement tomorrow. So, as these two hon. Ministers deliver their ministerial statements, they are requested to address the issue that has been raised by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa; the lack of power supply to water facilities, which is causing water supply interruptions. The hon. Ministers should address that because all these matters are related. The reason there is no water is power outages. So, hon. Minister of Energy, as you deliver your ministerial statement tomorrow, please, address that issue of water.

The last matter will be from the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

MR KAMPYONGO, HON. MEMBER FOR SHIWANG’ANDU, ON MR MWIIMBU, SC., THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON MAINTENANCE OF LAW AND ORDER

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, the urgent matter without notice I am raising is directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: You may proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, last week, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, who is also the Commander-in-Chief of the Defence Forces, raised some serious concerns. He felt that maybe, the police were inadequate to deal with internal security and to maintain law and order, such that he contemplated using his authority to involve the Zambia Army. To those who might not know what that entails, it is basically suspending the constitutional order and getting the Defence Forces to deal with the security matters of the State. Indeed, of late, there have been some occurrences that posed a threat to internal security. We have seen individuals ganging up and having processions that are unlawful. Further, one of your own hon. Members here, is reported to have been abducted. Of course, …

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: … there are some investigations going on. 

Just the other week, a Yango driver –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo:  These are not jokes.

Madam Speaker, just a few days ago, a Yango driver was killed and his body was discovered in Chilanga, Lusaka Province. I would like citizens to be assured that their lives are safe, and that they should continue enjoying their liberty and free movement as citizens. All of us here do not know who might be the next victim of abduction.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo:  Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance on this matter, as members of the public are looking to us, we who are mandated to exercise oversight to the august House, to do so on their behalf.

Lastly, Madam Speaker, permit me to convey my sincere condolences to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, who lost his beloved sister a week ago.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious guidance.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.  You have raised too many issues. One is about the directive that was supposedly made by His Excellency the President. The other is about an abduction. From what has been reported in the newspapers, I believe this matter is being investigated by the investigative wings.

As regards the state of the nation, I suggest you file in an urgent question, which the hon. Minister can address.

On the press briefing that was held some time back, it is no longer an urgent matter. Maybe, you should have raised it yesterday. Anyway, our rules only allow three matters. So, we are restricted by our own rules. The urgent question will address your concerns. So, file in an urgent question.

Thank you very much. That concludes urgent matters without notice.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

RESTRUCTURING OF THE FERTILISER DISTRIBUTION EXERCISE

343. Mr Fube (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

(a)       whether the Government has any plans to restructure the distribution of fertiliser under the Food Security Pack Programme in wetland areas;

(b)     if so, whether the use of co-operatives as an economically viable channel will be considered; and

(c)    which constituencies are earmarked for the implementation of the exercise.

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms D. Mwamba): Madam Speaker, the ministry has no plans to restructure the fertiliser (FSP) distribution processes. This is because the current distribution strategy being used is able to deliver the inputs closer to the beneficiary households. To enhance the distribution processes, the ministry is digitalising the Food Security Pack programme.

 Madam Speaker, there are no plans to use co-operatives in the distribution of inputs. This is because the FSP programme is a social protection programme meant for individuals who are poor and vulnerable, with no capacity to make a monetary contribution that is usually a requirement for members of co-operatives.

Madam Speaker, the districts determine the constituencies at the point of targeting. This is dependent on the places of the districts that are in wetlands. The wetland component under the FSP programme will be implemented in fifty-eight selected districts across the country.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, since the FSP programme is supposed to contribute to domestic food security, I want to find out what challenges the current model is facing, especially in terms of the objective of providing food to vulnerable households. I ask this because this programme has been a subject of abuse. In my constituency, some of the fertiliser meant for the poor found itself in the wrong hands. Those people sold it instead of using it to produce food. This shows that the programme is abused. Maybe, the model being used is wrong. So, what are some of the challenges that the current model is facing, in terms of producing food for the vulnerable households?

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the FSP programme has two components. One is the rain-fed component, where we distribute fertiliser and inputs to be used in the Rainy Season. This question is arising from the wetlands component of the FSP programme. The wetlands component is where districts and District Community Development Officers (DCDOs) identify wetlands where poor and vulnerable but viable farmers can engage in farming activities for food security at the household level.

Madam Speaker, regarding the challenges we are facing, as a ministry, this House may wish to note that the wetlands component of the programme was discontinued twelve years ago. We only resumed the distribution for wetlands in 2022 to cushion the poor and vulnerable but viable farmers, and to make sure that there is food security at the household level. One of the challenges we are facing at the moment is connectivity to these areas. The people are mostly indambosso passage to them is a challenge. Another challenge now is the number of vulnerable people who want to be put on the programme. We have quite a number of people wishing to come onto the programme, but we do not have enough resources.

Madam Speaker, as for the distribution of the inputs, I urge all hon. Members of Parliament to take keen interest in programmes, especially those under my ministry, that are being implemented in their respective constituencies.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms D. Mwamba: That is their responsibility.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member knows the people he lives with in Chilubi. He has asked me what the challenges are but, I think, hon. Members of Parliament would benefit if they paid keen interest in the programmes under my ministry because they are social protection programmes meant for poor and vulnerable people.

Madam Speaker, I always tell people that we should not take politics to social protection programmes because the people on these programmes need food. They need every grain. They need every kilogramme of the fertiliser we distribute. When we release fertilisers and other inputs from the capital city, Lusaka, please, follow up and make sure that they reach the intended beneficiaries. Of course, the ministry has officials, but be that extra eye to make sure that a poor woman in Chilubi receives the fertiliser and other inputs. When this is done, we will uplift households very quickly and break the vicious cycle of poverty.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as you ask supplementary questions, be precise so that we do not lose a lot of time. Yesterday, I noticed that hon. Members were debating instead of asking questions. Being the first day, I allowed it. Today, we need to catch up because we have a lot of business on the Order Paper.

The hon. Member for Kamfinsa may proceed.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, first of all, allow me to thank the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services for providing a response on some of the steps being taken to make this programme work. I, however, note that the question that was asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi relates to wetlands. In her response, the hon. Minister informed this nation that there is a challenge of connectivity in wetlands, and that the ministry has plans to digitise the distribution system. Working with the Ministry of Technology and Science, what steps are being taken to improve both physical connectivity as well as telecommunications so that when this programme is rolled out, the people of Chilubi will be able to get maximum benefits?

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, the digitalisation I referred to was the data at the headquarters. We need to make follow-ups. We are studying the recipients of the FSP programme, to see how much yields they got and whether the programme made any changes in their lives. We also need to get feedback or the history of all the beneficiaries of this programme so that we can decide whether it is, indeed, viable. We also need to see the implications of the programme and learn why other Governments decided to discontinue it.

Madam Speaker, in terms of connectivity, yes, we are having challenges getting to the hard-to-reach areas. We are in constant touch with the Ministry of Technology and Science, and it is working on the issue. Within two or three months, we will see connectivity in the country improve.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. I was looking at the hon. Minister of Technology and Science. Those antennas that were promised, I remember that I asked about them last time. They have not been installed. Can we have those antennas installed, hon. Minister.

The hon. Member for Lundazi may proceed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, I want to acknowledge that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services is one of the ministries helping people, especially we from poor communities.

Mr E. Tembo: Hear, hear!

Ms Nyirenda: Not ba Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts. I am saying the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

Mr E. Tembo: Hear, hear!

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services –

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Ms Nyirenda: Can you give me a chance.

Yesterday, we worked very well when Nkandu was not here.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, like I said yesterday, these proceedings are broadcast live. So, members of the public, including your constituents, are watching and seeing what we are doing.

Hon. Members, when you take the Floor, address the Chair. Do not start addressing other hon. Members or chatting with them. We are losing time. We have to work according to time. So, let us not squander it unnecessarily. We have to go through the order of proceedings.

You may proceed, hon. Member.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, there are people in my constituency who live in wetlands. Elephants destroyed all their crops and, at the moment, they do not even have where to start from. Elephants trampled on the crops of the people of Kachenche and Mutwewa Njovu. I brought this to the attention of the hon. Minister but no assistance has been given to those people. Is she in a position to use her authority and assist those people, especially that the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) cannot manage to assist everyone?

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, there is an upcoming programme in my ministry called the Emergency Social Cash Transfer. This is in response to the declaration of the drought as a national disaster and emergency by the President on 29^th February, 2024. The ministry has taken note of areas such as Lundazi, Nabwalya, where the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika is from, and Mfuwe so that the people who lost their crops to human-animal conflicts are taken care of under this programme.

Madam Speaker, next week, I will come to this House to render a ministerial statement on this new programme, if you will allow me.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Please, do come. I encourage hon. Ministers to come to the House with ministerial statements on topical issues. Do not wait for hon. Members to raise issues for you to react. Be proactive. I like that stance, hon. Minister. Please, do take that step.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, since the hon. Minister has said that hon. Members of Parliament have to be involved, I have to put on record that I engaged the hon. Minister regarding the challenges we are facing in Chilubi, and she was game to address some of the challenges. It is important to appreciate when certain things have been done.

Madam Speaker, having said that, I think, some officers and sometimes the District Administration feel that the Government services belong to them. When the National Assembly office wants to get involved in the programmes, either through the Professional Assistant (PA) or the Administrative Assistant (AA) when the hon. Member of Parliament is not there, the staff are stopped from monitoring how the distribution is done. How does the hon. Minister intend to involve the hon. Members of Parliament since that model has failed to involve them?

Mr E. Tembo: Just say you do not know.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, there is someone behind me saying I should just say that I do not know, but I know. I know where the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi is coming from. It is the political conflicts. I have always counselled the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi to get involved in the programmes, especially those under my ministry. I have also guided the officers in Chilubi to work professionally. So, I do not really understand how he can be inconvenienced. If he stays in his lane, he has the support of the ministry. He has our support.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to the distribution of any resource under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, we do not take any interference kindly because like I said earlier, these are social protection interventions for very poor people who need every resource. I have always counselled and encouraged him to go through the social welfare office or the community development office in Chilubi.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The list keeps on growing. We need to move on.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, has the ministry managed to identify the right crop for the farmers in the wetlands to grow? I know that maize might not do so well there. In conjunction with the Ministry of Agriculture, has the ministry identified the right crop to send to the wetlands so that the farmers do not have to deal with the regular maize and legumes that we always grow in other areas of the country?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, the question is about the distribution of fertiliser, but because fertiliser is meant for crops, I will allow your question.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, last year, we engaged the Zambia Agriculture Research Institute (ZARI). We are also working with the Department of Agriculture at the University of Zambia (UNZA). These are experts. They carried out soil samples in most areas, and I am glad to announce that this year, we are introducing new crops on both components of the programme, that is, the wetlands and rain-fed components. We have introduced crops such as cassava for the Western Province and other areas. Three different types of millet have also been introduced for certain areas. There are also fruits and vegetables on these programmes.

 Madam Speaker, under the leadership of His Excellency President Hakainde Hichilema, the Government has also introduced the Wetlands Programme that will benefit more districts apart from the traditional fifty-eight districts.

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kolala (Lufubu): Madam Speaker, may I begin by thanking the hon. Minister because the people of Lufubu are benefiting from what she is doing.

Madam Speaker, Lufubu has many vulnerable but viable farmers, but the number of packs given to that part of the country is too small. Does the ministry have any programme where it can find more money to increase the number of beneficiaries under the Food Security Pack (FSP) programme?

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, again, I want to announce to this august House that we carried out a rapid enumeration exercise during the break, where we scaled up, identified and targeted people who are poor and vulnerable, but who were not on the regular or traditional Social Cash Transfer programme. In the hon. Member’s constituency, I think that we identified over 2,000 people a month ago and they will be put on this programme for twelve months.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, this programme is a social safety net, and it has been very helpful in ensuring that our vulnerable but viable farmers are food-secure at the household level and contribute to the national food basket. The Ministry of Agriculture, under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), targets a similar category of farmers. Of late, most of the farmers who were on FISP were left out when they are still vulnerable but viable. There has been no progression. You cannot graduate farmers who are not able to stand on their own from accessing farming inputs. That has contributed to the challenge we are facing in terms of low productivity, especially in areas where rainfall was reasonably good.

Madam Speaker, I want to know how the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services can collaborate with abene bansala, …

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: …the hon. Minister of Agriculture, who has had very big challenges–

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, when the hon. Minister mentions something, you can rise on a point of order. Avoid debating one another. Just ask your question.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I am well-guided.

Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister responsible for community development, how the ministry is collaborating with the Ministry of Agriculture to ensure that some of the farmers who were left out of the FISP but are still vulnerable and viable, are assisted without driving them into perpetual poverty.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I want to encourage the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu to speak to the beneficiaries in Shiwang’andu. They should not sell all the produce that they harvest.

Madam Speaker, as to whether we collaborate with the Ministry of Agriculture, allow me to say that two weeks ago, we carried out an exercise. We want to know who we can graduate from the FISP and put on our programme. Yes, indeed, I want to acknowledge here that there were gaps. We had many gaps in the 2021/2022 Farming Season. We left out quite a number of beneficiaries. In the 2022/2023 Farming Season, again, we left out quite a number of poor and vulnerable but viable farmers. This came to light after I toured a number of districts and I was confronted by the beneficiaries who were not ready to be graduated, but they had been graduated from the programme in 2022 and 2023. I want to announce that they will be put back on the programme for the 2024/2025 Farming Season.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya raised his hand.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. I believe the question has been exhausted.

Let us make progress.

CONSTRUCTION OF WATER RETICULATION SYSTEM IN ITEZHI-TEZHI DISTRICT

344. Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi) asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct a water reticulation system in Itezhi-Tezhi District; and

1. if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Eng. Nzovu): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct a water reticulation system in Itezhi-Tezhi District to meet the needs of the growing population.

Madam Speaker, the plans will be implemented once the feasibility study and detailed designs that have been commissioned by the Southern Water and Sanitation Company Limited (SWASCO) and supported by Itezhi-Tezhi Power Corporation (ITPC) to the tune of K5 million, have been completed. The feasibility studies are currently being conducted by NAKO ILISO Consulting and are scheduled for completion by September2024. The scope of work includes:

1. construction of a water treatment plant to treat 18,000m³per day; and

1. rehabilitation and expansion of the water distribution network.

Madam Speaker, let me also inform this august House that as an interim measure to carter for the water needs of our people, SWASCO has embarked on a project costing about K996,000 to replace and extend the water supply network over a distance of 3.6 km in some parts of Itezhi-Tezhi. Further, immediate measures being carried out by SWASCO to improve coverage and increase supply hours include:

1. drilling of two commercial boreholes, one of which has already been drilled; and

1. installing of photovoltaic (PV) solar system for the two boreholes.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the positive response. It has given relief to the people of Itezhi-Tezhi, who have not had running water for many years now.

Madam Speaker, the current water treatment plant supplying water to the people of Itezhi-Tezhi is maintained and operated by ZESCO Limited, not the Southern Water and Sanitation Company Limited (SWASCO). To some extent, this has created a discrepancy because one company maintains and treats the water and the other company distributes the water. So, there is a lack of co-ordination. When does the hon. Minister think ZESCO Limited will entirely hand over the water treatment plant to SWASCO? For efficient water supply in the short term, the entire value chain should be managed by one company.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member sincerely for this question, and inform him that I was privileged to have worked in Itezhi-Tezhi on the same system about twenty-five years ago. Basically, the explanation is that the water treatment plant was constructed by ZESCO Limited because it owns Itezhi-Tezhi Dam. That plant was constructed about thirty years ago, and the design was meant for a small population of less than a thousand people. Currently, there are over 20,000 people. So, as you can imagine, that system reached its capacity a long time ago.

Madam Speaker, when the ITPC partnered with ZESCO Limited to construct the 120MW power plant, one of the corporate social responsibility (CSR) projects it came up with was the construction of a second treatment plant with a capacity of about 3,500m³ per day. As you can imagine, ZESCO Limited and the ITPC formed one company that now owns the water supply system. As a ministry, through SWASCO, we have asked the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to engage ITPC and ZESCO Limited to see if SWASCO can take over that power station. Production is done by the two entities and SWASCO is only involved at distribution point. So, to solve that problem, we have requested that SWASCO takes over the system, and this will happen very, very soon. We believe that it is the right thing to do because SWASCO has the necessary expertise to expand the system and maintain it well.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Since the hon. Member who asked the question is satisfied, we need to make progress. However, I have seen more indications.

Hon. Member for Roan, you have an interest in Itezhi-Tezhi?

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Very much so, Madam Speaker.

Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to ask a supplementary question. Before I pose my question on behalf of the people of Roan Constituency, allow me to express my sincere gratitude to my elder brother, Hon. Lusale Simbao, and His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, for presiding over the matters concerning Shaft No. 28 that was commissioned two weeks ago.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Chibuye:The shaft is up and running. Please, convey my sincere gratitude to His Excellency.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker, we had a drought. Shaft. No. 28 is holding 170 million m³of water that is in the process of being pumped out. This water will be channelled to the Kafue River from Luanshya and Kafubu River. The Kafue River passes close to Itezhi-Tezhi. The hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi has asked about water reticulation in his constituency. What is the ministry doing to ensure that part of the water coming from Shaft No. 28 is harvested? That water will be pumped out of the shaft for eighteen months, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, and it will pass through Itezhi-Tezhi.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I will give a summarised response and, later on, invite the hon. Member to my office for further discussions. I have a detailed answer for him because this is a technical question. The water in Shaft No. 28, which he has referred to, has accumulated over a long period. We undertake what is called one-time pumping because at the time the water in that reservoir will be depleted, obviously, mining activities will start taking place. When we look at the value we accumulate from pumping out the water to the point of generation, we need to assess the economics on whether doing so to generate the required megawatts to sell would be viable. I invite the hon. Member for Roan to my office so that we can look at the details of how that can be done or whether it should be done at all.

Madam Speaker, just in case there is no follow-up question, I would also like to express interest, as my elder sister, Hon. D. Mwamba, to issue a statement because of the water shortages resulting from the energy deficit we are currently experiencing. My hon. Colleague, the Minister of Energy, will issue a statement on the energy deficit here, on the Floor of the House. Those are the issues the country is facing.

Madam Speaker, maybe, for the comfort of hon. Members and the general public, I would like to say that we have commissioned a group of technocrats to see how we can quickly respond to the issues highlighted. Further, the Order Paper has mentioned that Hon. Dr Musokotwane will come to the House to explain how the Budget will be re-aligned. In that Budget presentation, there will be a comprehensive drought response plan outlined, particularly to ensure that our people have water supply from boreholes and existing plants. So, we are looking at solar solutions for some of the plants. We believe that we will mitigate the deficit of water supply in a very big way.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Since there are only two more indications, I will allow the hon. Members to ask their questions.

The hon. Member for Feira will ask his question and then he will be followed by the hon. Member for Lufubu.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, I also have an interest in Itezhi-Tezhi, somehow.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said that there are feasibility studies going on and when they are concluded, the project will be undertaken. I know that such studies have timeframes. When are the feasibility studies going to be concluded?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, again, I will take advantage of that question to give the House more information. First and foremost, the feasibility studies will be completed at the end of September. We have already engaged the ITPC and ZESCO Limited to give us more funds under the CSR initiative in the same way they did for the second plant. The two corporations are putting money aside to ensure that we move from about 3,500m³ per day to about 18,000m³ per day.

Madam Speaker, it has been very easy for me to learn about the water deficit problem in Itezhi-Tezhi because of a very good briefing from the outgoing Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, Hon. Mposha. I got a very detailed briefing on the matter, more so, from the Member of Parliament for Itezhi-Tezhi, Hon. Mutinta, who is close to his people and is able to bring out the issues clearly. I encourage the other hon. Members to do the same because water is life. We want to provide the resource in a timely manner.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kolala: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has given us hope here, in this House. When it comes to water supply, there are companies mandated to deal with this issue. Those companies are facing challenges, especially concerning the cost of chemicals and other materials that they use in their operations. Is the ministry doing anything to ensure that the companies start making profit, in order for them to give quality services to the people? With regard to Itezhi-Tezhi, you will find that the company mandated to supply water has failed to do so because it is making losses, and I am sure the hon. Minister knows that.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, indeed, when you look at the water sector, you will see that one of the biggest cries from there is the low tariffs. Over the years, the country has seen water as a resource that has to be given for free, yet the process of abstracting, treating and transmitting water to relevant storage tanks, as well as distributing it and maintaining the system, is very expensive. Actually, the tariffs we are all being charged are so low that most of the water supply companies are not making profit.

Madam Speaker, for the rural population, I think that the cost of drilling has been high over the years. I will be coming to the House soon to see how we introduce the necessary legislation on this matter. We are also actively engaging borehole drillers because we believe that the cost of drilling is way too high. I have made a lot of progress, with the guidance of my hon. Colleague, engaging the drillers for the prices to come down. Further, we have engaged all the boards of water utility companies to ensure that they wake up and make their companies viable. We need solutions to the water problems we are facing.

Madam Speaker, we are looking at these issues very constructively because we also believe that it is possible to have public-private partnerships (PPPs) on water projects, particularly to cater for some people who can afford to pay. However, we are not going to forget the poor. You will see a very comprehensive response to this matter in the statement that Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane will present before this House as he re-aligns the Budget.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Lubansenshi is not in the House. Therefore, the question lapses.

We move on to the next question.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, Question No. 348.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, look at the question again. What is the question number?

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I think, it should be Question No. 348 or 349 because of the lapsed question. Sorry, it is Question No. 346.

Hon. Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: I am sure you have the Order Paper before you.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I apologise.

Madam Speaker: Noted. It is Question No. 346.

ESTABLISHMENT OF FARMING BLOCKS IN CHILUBI WETLANDS

346. Mr Fube asked the Minister of Agriculture:

1. whether the Government has any plans to set up wetland farming blocks in Chilubi District;

1. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

1. what the estimated cost of the project is.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Agriculture, has targeted the development of one farming block per province under the Farming Block Development Programme. In the Northern Province, the Government is developing Kalungwishi Farming Block in Lunte District. The targeted farming blocks are meant to boost the agricultural production of crops such as maize, soya beans and wheat. Considering the question of the development of wetland farming blocks in Chilubi District, the Government has not yet conducted environmental impact assessments (EIAs) to establish the impact of such projects on the wetland ecosystems, which are sensitive areas when we consider the use of agricultural chemicals like fertilisers, herbicides and pesticides.

Madam Speaker, as stated above, the establishment of wetland farming locks is dependent on EIAs to establish the suitability of such areas. This can be done once an area of interest is identified for the establishment of a wetland farming block.

Madam Speaker, the costs are not known at the moment.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the Government is talking about irrigation to seal the food security gap that has been caused by drought. The hon. Minister indicated that wetland farming should be subjected to environmental impact assessments (EIAs). Currently, his ministry is encouraging irrigation and not rain-fed crop production, even in Chilubi. Water will be used to irrigate crops to cover the food security gap. I do not know how those two models can work. Wetland farming has to be subjected to EIAs, but irrigation of crops goes on with without EIAs. I want to find out from the hon. Minister, whether irrigation that is being encouraged is not equivalent to farming in wetlands, since irrigation is not subjected to EIAs.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I wish to remind the hon. Member that his question was on whether the Government has any plans to set up wetland farming blocks. The response is that as at now, we do not have those plans. I did indicate that we are encouraging the setting up of farming blocks in each province, and the selection of those farming blocks is scientifically done. It is well done. Right now, one needs to be very careful to set up a big farming block in a wetland. There are issues of fertiliser washing downstream and pesticides killing fish in wetlands. So, we need to carry out a very comprehensive impact assessment. I think that comparing wetland farming to irrigation is not a correct way of looking at issues.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for indicating that instead of developing a farming block in the wetlands in Chilubi, the Government is developing Kalungwishi Farming Block in Lunte. What specific developmental outcome does the ministry have for the Kalungwishi Farming Block in Lunte Constituency and Lunte District, before August 2026?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I might not understand the reason for the August 2026 timeline that the hon. Member has given. However, our development pattern for the farming blocks is very well co-ordinated. The farming blocks we are concentrating on now are Luena in Luapula Province, Kalumwange in the Western Province, Musokotwane in the Southern Province and Shikabeta in Lusaka Province. However, this does not mean that we are not encouraging investments in the other farming blocks such as the one in Lunte. In fact, we have received interest in that farming block.

Madam Speaker, when land for farming blocks has been identified, the Government builds roads and connects electricity, as it has done in Luena and Shikabeta farming blocks. Once this is done, the Government encourages heavy investment deliberately in that direction so that ultimately, production of different types of crops, such as maize, wheat, rice, sorghum and cassava by investors is increased.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I think that the hon. Minister is more focused on conventional farming using fertilisers. Small-scale farming is going on in the Chilubi wetlands because that area receives a lot of rain. The crops grown include rice, maize and many others, and they have not posed a serious danger to the ecosystem in Chilubi. Is the ministry considering venturing into conservation farming, a farming method that indigenous farmers already use? I know that his scientists in the ministry can conduct feasibility studies. From my observation, rice can be grown in wetlands. I can tell you that even wheat can grow in Chilubi using the conservation farming method. Is the hon. Minister considering that route because land is being wasted?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, for the record, may the hon. Member be guided that Zambia is actually leading in terms of conservation farming in the region. Over time, that is the merit we have received. Having said that, I wish to repeat that we are not stopping small-scale farmers from cultivating rice. I never said that we are stopping them. In fact, we are encouraging them. However, as we are doing that, it is important to alert them of certain farming practices that are inimical to the ecosystem in the wetlands. My answer was that: The Government has no plan to establish a farming block in a wetland.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms S. Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, when you look at the ecosystem along the Chambeshi River, for instance, you will see that there is quite a lot of rice being grown there. I am pretty sure that Chilubi has a similar terrain and ecosystem. So, does the Government have any short-term plan to conduct a feasibility study on growing rice in Chilubi?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, the ministry, working with the World Food Programme (WFP), is currently looking at rice production in the Western Province, the Northern Province, Luapula Province and parts of the Eastern Province. I wish to assure the hon. Member that we are working with the WFP, which is an international institution of good repute. We are going to plant rice and apply the necessary technologies and fertiliser. We will also definitely look at conservation farming, as guided by Hon. Fube. We will definitely look at that.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has raised a very important aspect, which my hon. Colleague, the Minister of Green Economy and Environment, should take note of (pointing at Hon. Mposha). Oh, the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment is now seated on the other side. I am sure, he is taking notes on this issue of the potential destruction to the ecosystems. Given the agricultural practices going on, we will see a reduction of fish in our rivers as well as prolonged and taller weeds or reeds in wetlands because of fertiliser usage. We might also see certain species of birds disappearing from there. It would take time to bring those things back if that happened. By the time we realise what has happened, we would have destroyed a certain type of system within the environment. So, I am very pleased that the hon. Member raised that point. I will liaise with my hon. Colleague from the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment on it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated his desire to develop the farming blocks. I developed interest when he mentioned Luena Farming Block in Kawambwa District. A large part of it is in Pambashe Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte asked about the five-year development plan for the farming blocks. In 2021, the hon. Minister visited Luena Farming Block and found that some roads were taking shape, to prepare farmers to participate in co-ventures with companies like BNOP Green 2000. However, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development stood here and proudly announced to Zambians that he cancelled all those road projects. As I speak, there is only one road being constructed by the Zambia National Service (ZNS) in Luena Farming Block. How then, does the hon. Minister intend to enhance agricultural activities in that busy and very productive area, when the contracts for infrastructure projects that were left have been cancelled?

Madam Speaker: Your question has expanded the whole question. The question that the hon. Member for Chilubi asked was on the setting up of farming blocks in the wetlands in Chilubi District. Of course, the hon. Minister gave examples of farming blocks being developed in other provinces. Then, in the process, he mentioned Luena Farming Block. If you have more questions on that, I suggest you file in a question because we do not want to take the hon. Minister by surprise. Although he is –

Mr Mtolo: I can give the answers.

Madam Speaker: Alright. If the hon. Minister is ready, then he can answer.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I really thank you for allowing me to respond to this question.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Pambashe knows very well that the current Government is constructing a road connecting Luena from the northern side, which road was an impediment to the development of Kawambwa Sugar Limited farm, which is also going to be the largest avocado farming in this part of Africa. Secondly, yes, tenders that were not properly awarded were cancelled. Then, we properly re-did the tender and assigned the Zambia National Service (ZNS) and the Road Development Agency (RDA) to build the roads in a manner they are supposed to be built.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: I wish to go further and state that Luena Farming Block has had no power for a very long time, ...

Mr Chitotela: Which part?

Mr Mtolo: ... not because of anybody’s fault but because –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Pambashe, you asked a question and it is being answered.

Mr Mtolo: Yes, he asked for it.

Mr Chitotela interjected

Madam Speaker: Order!

I encourage hon. Members to visit their constituencies and see what is on the ground.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Government has spent money to pay ZESCO Limited and power has been taken to Luena Farming Block.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Go and visit, and you will notice that power has gone to Kawambwa Sugar Limited farm. As we are talking, the power is now being taken to BNOP Green 2000 farming that had no power and was using more than six drums of diesel every day to run the farm.

Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Government is doing the right thing. That is why I am extremely happy that the hon. Member for Pambashe is updated on what is happening in his constituency. It is important that we know what is happening in our constituencies. The New Dawn Government is working very hard in that area. As for Luena Farming Block, it is going to be a marvel. This is for the sake of the hon. Member who asked about it. He should visit it and see. Yes, we are improving on what we found, and that is the way it is supposed to be.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Since it looks like we are expanding the questions, we will end on that note. I think, the question has been adequately answered.

We go to the next question.

GRANTS TO RURAL HEALTH CENTRES

347.Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Health:

1. at what intervals rural health centres receive grants from the Government;

1. what the grants are meant to cater for; and

1. whether there are any plans to increase the amount of each grant.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, Mr Miyutu, Kalabo Central Member –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Sorry, sorry. I was just observing hon. Members who were still chatting. I wanted to draw their attention to the fact that I was watching them.

Now, we go to the next question. The hon. Member for Kalabo Central is the one who is supposed to ask a question.

Hon. UPND Members: He has already asked the question.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health may respond.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, rural health centres receive grants monthly. Every month, the Ministry of Health receives funding from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, which includes grants for health centres. This money is sent to the district health offices, which then, disburse the grants to the various health centres within their district.

Madam Speaker, the grants are meant for the daily running of the facilities, which includes paying utility bills, buying fuel, drugs, food, cleaning materials and whatever they consider important in the running of those facilities.

Madam Speaker, as to whether there are any plans to increase the grants, depending on the availability of funds, the Government, through the Ministry of Health, may consider doing that. This year, the Budget is being re-aligned because of the drought and so, resources may be scarce. Therefore, grants might not be increased. 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, health is life. Without life, there is no education. Without life, there is no human activity. Could the hon. Minister estimate the average amount rural health centres receive monthly.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the grants given to health centres are in form of imprest. They only qualify to receive another grant or imprest upon retirement of the previous funds. The centres receive grants or imprest according to the budgets in their annual action plans. Specifically, this year, Kalabo District Health Office has, so far, received grants totalling K831,902 from January to May. For June, the grant has not yet been released because grants are released from around the 23^rd of the month up to the 30^th of the month, which is the last week of each month.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, in the annual projection of funds for rural health centres, does the ministry factor in the grants for the rural health centres being constructed and opened weekly using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF)?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I think that the answer is no because our budget is just for one year. The issue of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) being spent on the construction of health posts is very welcome. I think that we need to begin re-aligning the work-plans so that we also factor in the operationalisation of the newly constructed health facilities. This is a matter we are earnestly looking at in this year's budget. In the budget for the Ministry of Health, we do have money for supporting not just the operationalisation of those places but also for the employment of new workers and buying of the equipment and drugs.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, my last request or plea to the hon. Minister is for her to talk to the District Administration so that those grants meant for health centres are released every month, rather than omitting certain months. You will find that a health centre is funded in one month and not funded in another. That money is never paid back. It means the health centre would have missed out on the money. In twelve months, a health centre may receive less than eight months worth of grants. Could the hon. Minister talk to the administrators of the grants and advise them to be releasing the grants to health centres despite the monies being very little.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kalabo Central for that important, serious observation. It is true that last year, the Ministry of Health released and disbursed the grants to all the 116 district health offices for onward disbursement to all the facilities within their jurisdictions every month. As I have said, this year, almost K832,000 has so far been released to Kalabo from January to May. We expect this money to be disbursed monthly to the various health facilities. Listening to the hon. Member of Parliament, it is clear that that is not what is happening. There may be issues of diversion or unfair distribution of the resources. We will take up the matter and see how we can improve and ensure that all facilities receive their resources monthly, because it is important that all facilities receive the grants. The Government has been releasing resources monthly, without exception.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF A STADIUM AT CHANGANAMAI IN KWACHA CONSTITUENCY

348. Mr C. Mulenga (Kwacha) asked the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts: 

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct a sports stadium at Changanamai Grounds in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency;

1. if so, when the plans will be implemented;

1. what the timeframe for the completion of the project is;

1. what the estimated cost of the project is; and

1. if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu): Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts has no plans to construct a sports stadium at Changanamai Grounds in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency, as the ground or the land in question does not belong to the ministry but to the local authority, that is, Kitwe City Council (KCC).

Madam Speaker, as stated in (a) above, parts (b), (c), and (d) of the question fall away.

Madam Speaker, as to part (e) of the question, the ministry is now prioritising the rehabilitation and construction of sports and recreation facilities at provincial and district levels. I wish to state that my fellow hon. Member of Parliament for Kwacha can see how best he can utilise part of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Stadium!

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, the stadium, which we are talking about, is not a 15,000-seater or 20,000-seater but a 2,000-seater or 2,500-seater. So, this is something the hon. Member can work on using the CDF. As I was saying before I was interrupted rudely –

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Nkandu: I think, the hon. Member could benefit from the CDF, as I said earlier. Sports persons and artists are benefiting from the CDF, just like people in other sectors such as health, education and home affairs. Even my ministry can benefit from the CDF.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.     

Mr Charles Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the response that is quite candid. That ground has a history, and I am sure that the hon. Minister is aware of what I mean. The council would like to develop that place because as we speak now, many people have encroached on the land. If we leave the situation as it is, next year or in 2026 and beyond, we will have no place to develop. So, I think, the best thing the hon. Minister can do is give relief to the people of Kwacha Constituency, instead of advocating the use of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to construct a stadium in that place as it might not be adequate to cater for the construction.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Charles Mulenga: I would urge the hon. Minister to give relief to the people, considering that it is only Kwacha Constituency that has no stadium. Wusakile has one. Kamfinsa has one. I think, Nkana has two. So, my appeal is that the ministry looks at other options to give relief to the residents of Kwacha and give them a stadium.   

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I accept that Kwacha Constituency has no sports facility. I also take into account the appeal from the hon. Member of Parliament for Kwacha. It will be very difficult for the Government to spend money to put up sports infrastructure on land that does not belong to it. First things first, there is a need to secure land that will belong to the Government before you appeal for sports infrastructure to be built. I think that we should start from there.

Madam Speaker, earlier I gave the answer that the hon. Member should tap into the CDF. He might be aware that on the Floor of the House, I appealed to all hon. Members to support me in my quest to put up sports infrastructure in every district, if not every constituency. Now, it seems, hon. Members of Parliament did heed that appeal. I will engage others to see how best we can tap into the CDF. We should not shy away from tapping into the CDF. That is number one. Having said that, let me say that in its strategic plan of 2022-2026, the Government has stated that it will construct at least three sports infrastructure in every district. Like I said in my response earlier, we are putting up at least one sports infrastructure in every province.

 Madam Speaker, we have a big challenge. I think, hon. Members of Parliament are aware that at one point, the Confederation of African Football (CAF) and the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA)could not allow us to use Heroes Stadium. So, the money that was allocated for sports infrastructure has been re-allocated to both Heroes Stadium and Levy Mwanawasa Stadium to upgrade them to international standards. I am aware that we do not tell hon. Members of Parliament everything we are doing. If we allocated funds to only three sports infrastructure, it would take years for us to reach Kwacha or Kaputa. For the record, I am the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts, but there is no stadium in Kaputa. All hon. Members of Parliament may have the same cry but, I think, we need to see how best we can help each other. We are trying to help Nyimba to construct a stadium because it reached out to the ministry, just like Roan Constituency did. I talked about the three sports infrastructure to be constructed in every district. We wanted to consider Nyimba and Roan constituencies and meet them somewhere financially.

Mr J. Chibuye: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: It is a question of meeting somewhere. The constituencies can tap into the CDF and the ministry can also allocate some funds towards the construction of the sports infrastructure in the constituencies.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.  

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister indicated that his ministry has no plans to construct a stadium in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency because the land in question does not belong to the Government of the Republic of Zambia. I have been interacting with my hon. Colleague, the Member of Parliament for Kwacha, because the names of our constituencies are more or less similar. He is my brother, and we have been interacting. In my interactions with him, I have learnt that he has already secured land. There is land in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency for a stadium. Now that alternative land has been secured by the hon. Member, will the ministry construct a stadium in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for that important follow-up question. Although I know it is a different question, I will attempt to answer it.

Madam Speaker, I will start by saying that acquisition of land is just one of the reasons I cited and it should not be seen as the only reason. The land is not ours. That is one of the reasons we cannot build the stadium. I encouraged hon. Members of Parliament who want stadia in their constituencies to first secure land and let that land become Government land. Then, the Government can start such processes. I just wanted to say that that is the first step. That is number one.

Madam Speaker, number two, I vividly remember that you informed us that some issues we bring to the Floor of the House should be dealt with in our respective ministries. However, many hon. Members of Parliament want to ask questions on the Floor without engaging ministries. I encourage hon. Members of Parliament to engage the ministry the way the hon. Members for Nyimba and Roan did.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: Who knows? You might get a stadium from the three stadia proposed to be constructed every year.

Mr Chibuye: Even Hon. Nakaponda?

Mr Nkandu: Yes. Including Hon. Nakaponda.

Madam Speaker, it is not a question of bringing a question here so that you embarrass someone. No, it is a question of engaging each other.

Madam Speaker, to answer the hon. Member for Bwacha, although his question was different, indeed, that stadium is for the Government. As I said in my response, we are trying to construct sports infrastructure in every district.

Mr Mushanga: Muleya Stadium.

Mr Nkandu: I can assure the hon. Member of that.

I think, let us start engagements so that we look at how best we can help each other.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: We have sufficiently dealt with that question. I believe hon. Members will need more time to debate in the Motion segment.

So, we make progress.

______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND SOCIAL SERVICES

Ms Nakaponda (Isoka): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services, on the Devolution of Primary Healthcare Services in Zambia for the Third Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 11^th June, 2024.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, in line with its terms of reference, the Committee considered a topical issue on the devolution of primary healthcare services in Zambia. In carrying out this important task, the Committee sought both written and oral submissions and interacted with various stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, you will note that health sector reforms, particularly in low and middle-income countries, have in the last two decades focused on decentralisation of health systems as a strategic and effective option for the reform of health systems. Devolution is therefore one of the key reform programmes currently being implemented by the Government, with the ultimate goal of creating efficiency in service delivery. It is further meant to positively affect the performance of the health system by transferring responsibilities and healthcare to the local government system. In recognising the importance of a devolved healthcare system to any country, the Committee resolved to undertake the study we are discussing today. 

Madam Speaker, during its deliberations with stakeholders, the Committee made several observations. In this regard, allow me to highlight some of the salient issues observed by the Committee. First and foremost, the Committee observed that despite the devolution of primary healthcare services being of grave importance and central to national development, there is a need for the Government to have implemented the devolution of primary healthcare services in a phased approach. This would have created a platform from which the other local authorities would have learnt before rolling out the exercise countrywide. 

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that over the years, the local authorities have not been discharging their mandate effectively. With some added functions arising from the devolution process, there is anxiety among the general public regarding the quality of healthcare expected. In addition, the welfare of staff who have been moved to the local authorities is not certain.Owing to the aforementioned, the Committee recommends that an operational research unit be established for continuous monitoring and evaluation of service delivery so as to not disadvantage the general populace and the workers who have been devolved to the local authorities.

Madam Speaker, the National Health Services Act No. 22 of 1995 was repealed in 2006.This vital piece of legislation was the backbone of the legal framework for the health sector. It is, therefore, surprising to the Committee that it has not been replaced. Despite there being other pieces of legislation to guide the operations of the sector, an overarching legal framework is missing. In light of this, the Committee recommends that a National Health Services Bill be developed and enacted in order to provide a clear framework for the decentralisation of the health sector, and to also provide the overall health sector legal framework.

Madam Speaker, the Committee further observed that the National Health Policy does not provide a clear roadmap and is silent on the specific policy direction for the devolution of the health sector. It therefore goes without saying that the National Health Policy should be reviewed so that it can be aligned with the National Decentralisation Policy.

Madam Speaker, one of the issues that stood out for the Committee during its interaction with stakeholders is that, while the Constitution and subsidiary pieces of legislation support the implementation of the National Decentralisation Policy, other important pieces of legislation are lacking. If the decentralisation process is to achieve the desired expectations, existing legislation needs to be reviewed and aligned with the Constitution to strengthen policy implementation.  For example, while the Constitution gives the powers to administer the district to the Town Clerk, the Planning and Budgeting Act No. 1 of 2020 assigns the administration to the District Commissioner (DC), thereby creating conflict between the two offices.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that although there is a Decentralisation Secretariat in place, whose main responsibility is to oversee the implementation of the National Decentralisation Policy, it is imperative to have in place a devolution transition authority. The mandate of such an authority would be to facilitate and co-ordinate the transition to the devolved system of Government, facilitate the analysis and the phased transfer of the functions, as well as develop a framework for the comprehensive and effective transfer of the devolved functions. In this regard, Zambia can take a leaf from Kenya’s transition to the Devolved Government Act, which also established its devolution transition authority.

Madam Speaker, further, the Committee had an opportunity to undertake site visits to a number of local authorities in order to have greater appreciation of the devolution of healthcare services in the country. During its local tour, the Committee also learnt that all councils have opened devolution sector accounts to facilitate the functions of the devolved sectors. However, the Committee observed with concern, that several of the accounts have not yet been activated. The Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government commences the payment of the grants into the devolution sector accounts at the earliest convenience in order to ringfence grants and other resources for district health offices and hospitals. As local authorities might have competing priorities, this may impact negatively on the effective operation of the health sector. 

Madam Speaker, notwithstanding the inadequacies in the implementation process, Zambia’s commitment to fostering a healthier and more productive nation is evident in its vision for the health sector through the ratification of key declarations like the Astana Declaration, showcasing a specific dedication to primary healthcare.

Madam Speaker, the decentralisation of healthcare aligns with the global Sustainable Development Goal (SDG) No. 3, Universal Health Coverage, which aims to empower local administrative levels and bridge developmental gaps between rural and urban areas. The Committee is confident that if the Government continues on the current path, Zambia will achieve 100 per cent devolution of the healthcare system.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, …

Interruptions

Ms Nakaponda: … allow me to render my sincere gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the services rendered to the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services throughout its deliberations. Gratitude is also extended to all stakeholders who provided your Committee with invaluable information which formed the basis of the report before this House.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Apologies, I allowed the hon. Member to continue speaking after her time had expired. I declare interest; I have a soft spot for women.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Katakwe: Now, Madam Speaker. 

Interruptions

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I second the Motion ably moved by Hon. Nakaponda, the Member of Parliament for Isoka.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I wish to pass my condolences to our family members in Malawi. I also thank our President for showing the ubuntu spirit, by allowing the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) to send helicopters to help our brothers.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to congratulate you on the issue of primary healthcare, which begins here at Parliament. When we walked into our washrooms, we noticed that they have changed. Indeed, this shows that women are working.

Madam Speaker, I just want to highlight a few things that the hon. Member, the mover of the Motion, stated. Indeed, primary healthcare is very important and its devolution to the local authorities is the way to go. Primary healthcare devolution simply entails the promotion of food supply and good nutrition, promotion of maternal and child health, family planning, supply of safe water and basic sanitation, as well as health education and disease prevention at the local level. It also entails the prevention and treatment of some common diseases. Basically, devolving these issues to the local authorities is the way to go for Zambia. Devolution is also in line with the Alma-Ata Declaration of 1978, which talks about devolution of primary healthcare.

Madam Speaker, it is essential to ensure that healthcare is universally acceptable and affordable in communities. Through devolution of primary healthcare services, communities will participate in the decision-making of what kind of primary healthcare services they need. This is in line with the Government policy of bringing healthcare and development closer to the people.

Madam Speaker, from the tours we undertook, I realised that devolution of primary healthcare to the local authorities is very important. However, the local authorities; our councils, leave much to be desired, and this has been outlined in the report. For example, the attitude of personnel in our local authorities has been cited. There was an uproar or misgivings from the stakeholders we interacted with. Stakeholders, especially staff who have been transferred from the health sector to the local authorities, expressed anxieties, fears, uncertainties and resistance. You might have noticed that statistics show that only about 50 per cent of those who received conveyance letters have been devolved to the local authorities and have reported there. This means that about 40 per cent or 45 per cent have not reported. Why? It is because of their fears, anxieties and uncertainties. Therefore, the Committee is of the view that it is incumbent upon the Ministry of Health and the local authorities to introduce robust sensitisation programmes for the staff. I will give an example of my constituency. Last week, when I visited my constituency, I asked the people in the health sector about the devolution exercise. They said that they were not aware of it and they did not know what it was. This is a message to all the local authorities. The advanced local authorities in town might understand devolution, but those in rural areas do not really understand the issues to do with the devolution of primary healthcare. So, there is a need for sensitisation.

Madam Speaker, let me speak on the lessons learnt from Kenya. Kenya has achieved the devolution of primary healthcare based on a number of pillars. For instance, it has a strong legal and policy framework. It has the Devolved Government Act, the Primary Health Care Act, the Social Health Insurance Act, the Facilities Improvement Financing Act, the Digital Health Act and the Kenya Universal Health Coverage Policy, among others. For us, I have noticed that pronouncements have been made to devolve the healthcare services at primary level but there are no policies in place. As the hon. Member who moved the Motion stated, we need to review our health policies, such as the National Health Services Act so that we strengthen the legal and policy framework to achieve 100 per cent devolution of primary healthcare. In other jurisdictions such as Kenya, because of the devolution of primary healthcare, there has been an increase in financing to the sector. Indeed, when we devolve primary healthcare, resources, such as personnel, must be devolved as well so that we achieve the intended goal. I learnt that through devolution, Kenya has improved and increased infrastructure and human resource at primary healthcare level.

Madam Speaker, the local authorities must work together with the devolved health personnel to promote community healthcare. We know that prevention of disease is the best way to go because we save the resources that would have been spent on curative measures. So, when we devolve the primary healthcare function to local authorities, we are going to prevent unwarranted diseases such as cholera. If we had devolved this function, we would not be talking about cholera because water, sanitation and all related matters would have been taken care of.

Madam Speaker, in supporting this Motion, let me say that, indeed, devolution is the way to go, and this was accepted by every single stakeholder we interacted with. So, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the chairperson of the Committee and her team as well as the vice-chairperson for the report on primary healthcare and at what level it must function.

Madam Speaker, we should always attempt to simplify our debates for members of the public following the proceedings. The issue we are discussing relates to who should report to whom and what duties they should perform. As I was reading the report, I thought it would be important, first of all, to pay tribute to those who were here before us, that is, the Parliaments before us and our founding fathers who did some of the work we are building upon today in the context of primary healthcare. I think, the chairperson has explained what primary healthcare is, but to simplify it for our people out there, devolving primary healthcare to local authorities simply means having a reporting structure that allows the local authorities to know what is happening where primary healthcare is concerned. It involves knowing how much money primary healthcare needs, the funding that will be made available and the challenges it is facing.

Madam Speaker, from the report, I note that there is no acknowledgement that devolution has already started. We might be having a debate here today on the understanding that this is when we want to devolve the primary healthcare function. I was privileged to serve at a local authority. What used to happen is that the Director of Health would bring a report to a committee of the council. Local authorities have a committee system, the same way Parliament has one. So, there is a committee on health at every local authority in Zambia. What normally happens is that the District Health Director simply prepares a report at the committee stage, renders the report and informs the local authority of the challenges the health facilities are facing. Now, that reporting does not take away the responsibility of the Ministry of Health. So, this report reminds us that we could achieve more at the primary healthcare level if local authorities were involved and understood the problems being faced in delivering primary healthcare services.

Madam Speaker, I will quickly go to the recommendations the chairperson presented today. There is a recommendation by the Committee that we establish a health services commission for the workers who have moved from the Ministry of Health to the local authorities. There is no need to create that commission. Firstly, it will be costly. Secondly, at the local authority level, we already have the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC). If the LGSC does not have an expert on healthcare, the President can appoint a commissioner with expertise in healthcare to sit there so that when an issue relating to healthcare comes up, someone on the commission will understand that issue. So, my first suggestion or recommendation is that there is no need to set up a health services commission because we already have the LGSC. We should avoid incurring extra costs going into the devolution process. Two or three people could be added to the existing commission to ensure that we achieve what is supposed to be achieved.

Madam Speaker, let me come to the second recommendation. In the report that has been presented today, we have been told that there is anxiety among the workers. The workers are worried that if they move from the Ministry of Health to the local authorities, their career progression will be affected. Two things can make a professional progress. Number one, a person must build his capacity. If one has a certificate or a diploma, the next thing he should tell himself is that he needs to enhance his academic qualifications. This is true whether he is reporting to the Ministry of Health or the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. The way you present yourself as an expert will allow you to progress. So, I do not agree that there is anxiety amongst our workers. Maybe, we are not talking to our workers. Maybe, no one is talking to those workers who are moving from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to remind them what they need to do. In my view, we do not need to create a situation in which people feel they will not progress if they move from the Ministry of Health. Let us encourage our workers. If they are diploma holders, let them enrol for further qualifications to acquire the extra skills they need. Then, they will be able to present themselves as people who are going to progress.

 

Madam Speaker, thirdly, there is another important aspect that has been raised. There are ten laws that the people of Kenya have enacted simply to deal with primary healthcare. I am standing here and asking myself whether we also need to come up with ten pieces of legislation simply to get primary healthcare to the local authorities. I do not agree that we need to do so. First of all, it will be a tedious process. It will also be costly to come up with ten laws. What we simply have to ask ourselves is: Do we have a policy or regulation that deals with insurance in Zambia? Yes, we do. Kenya has the Social Health Insurance Act. Do we have any policy or regulation that deals with universal coverage? We do. So, we may not have to copy everything our colleagues have come up with. Maybe, what we need to do is amend our existing laws. We have laws, as a country, that already deal with some of these very, very important issues.

Madam Speaker, for me, doctors, nurses and other health workers are not politicians. I do not think they have a problem reporting to the District Commissioner (DC), the Mayor of a city or the District Health Director. I do not think health workers are the problem. The problem comes in when we, the elected officials, tell them, “Do not report to this person.” I think, health workers believe in the profession that they have pursued as individuals. They do not mind whom they report to. What is critical is providing access to healthcare for our people. If having primary healthcare under a local authority will ensure that people have access to healthcare, we should all support this report and the changes that have to be made. We should fine-tune one or two things and ensure that our people have access to primary healthcare. This is my submission on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, this will be the shortest debate ever.

Madam Speaker, I want to state that we will be making a great mistake by taking healthcare to our local authorities. These local authorities–

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to continue my debate. Before business was suspended, I had just indicated my position that we should not start taking people’s lives as experiments. As I stand here, on this Floor, my constituency has not received the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) allocation for 2024 because the local authorities have no capacity to release the money on time. The Government disbursed the money to all the local authorities, but the local authorities have no capacity to perform their work. One cannot give magwaza to a child who has failed to eat porridge. You cannot do that. You cannot give a child samp to eat if he or she has failed to eat porridge. Why should we give more responsibilities to the local authorities that are still failing to collect enough revenue for their own operations? If you go to the Northern Province, you will find a local authority that is collecting only K2,000 per month, but the Government wants to give it more responsibilities. I say no to that.

Mr J. Chibuye interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Chibuye!

Mr Sing’ombe received a bottle of water from Mr Mposha and took a sip.

Mr Sing’ombe: Thank you very much.

Hon. UPND Member: Former Minister of water!

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: I am very happy because the water has come from the former hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Mr Speaker, we need to ensure that the local authorities are given enough capacity before we devolve the primary healthcare function to them. Remember, they used to struggle with the disbursement of the K1.6 million allocation. Now, the K30 million allocation has come like a dream and local authorities cannot manage it. People are suffering in the constituencies, yet money is just sitting in the banks. There is no capacity to ensure that the people in the constituencies use the money on time. Ask me why my constituency has not received its CDF allocation. Projects have already been prioritised and money has been given by the Government, but we are taking one year just to procure a grader. Why should it take us that long? Then, the Government wants to lump the local authorities with such responsibilities that hinge on people’s lives. It is not a correct move. Can we look at this issue again. I would rather we started by piloting the devolution programme in one district to see whether it is workable.

Mr Speaker, I do not support this report.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I think, the main objective of devolving primary healthcare services is to achieve the goals embedded in universal health coverage, meaning it intends to have a trickle-down effect on the people. We had the National Decentralisation Policy, which was created in 2002 and launched in 2004, and it was supposed to be a policy framework for what we are debating today. Before I go further, I would like to attend to the matter of the legal framework because one of the things that the Committee stated –

Interruptions

Mr Fube: I am getting a lot of feedback, so I am failing to concentrate. Can I be protected from the feedback?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us minimise debating whilst seated.

You may proceed, hon. Member for Chilubi.

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, I would like to start with the grand norm, which is the Constitution. From Article 147 to Article 152, the Constitution has laid down a skeleton that needs flesh. In this case, the only surgery that needs to be done in terms of the legal framework is on the National Health Services Act. If need be, we should introduce a Primary Healthcare Services Act to consolidate healthcare services and define how primary healthcare is supposed to reach the poorest person in Chilubi.

Mr Speaker, let me also indicate that in 2015 –

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, I am a noisy person, but I can admit that the House is noisier. I think, I cannot debate in this environment; it is a bit toxic for me. However, let me continue as though I were not disturbed.

Mr Speaker, what I was trying to underscore is that the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) are under the councils. The Constitution has given councils a lot of leverage, but we seem to have a problem with devolution on the issue of power differentials between the local authorities and the District Commissioners (DCs). In 2015, a circular that was meant to separate or segregate the roles that the DCs and the local authorities are supposed to play was issued. In that circular, –

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Not even the Hon. Speaker is concentrating.

Interruptions

Mr Fube: I am very sensitive to gestures so I could see that.

Mr Speaker, the DCs were supposed to carry out civil duties while the local authorities were supposed to carry out civic duties. Those things were properly tabulated in that circular.

Mr Speaker, the other problem is the anxiety of workers who have moved from the Ministry of Health to the local authorities. Those workers think that they will be moved from the payroll of the Ministry of Health. What can work for now is a scenario in which the health workers are maintained on the Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) system and only changing the reporting system. When we talk about primary healthcare, what are we addressing in terms of structures? We are addressing health posts and clinics. That is how far the primary healthcare function can go in terms of structures at the district level. If that is the case, how does the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development ensure that the workers are supervised to deliver universal health coverage goals? The personnel linked to the primary healthcare function are not supposed to report directly to the principal officer at a local authority, like a Council Secretary or a Town Clerk. They are supposed to use their structure at the District Health Office to report to the local authority. The problem has been the struggle for who is bigger at the district level between the Council Secretary and the District Commissioner (DC). That is not a hard policy issue per se but a soft policy issue that we can settle properly. The local authorities have developed IDPs. The devolution of primary healthcare, which we are talking about today, can be harnessed as the participants in the IDPs are all the district stakeholders. The participants in the district development committees are all stakeholders.

Mr Speaker, when it comes to the devolution of primary healthcare services, I do not see any serious bottlenecks. The report has some suggestions and proposals on this matter. There is no need to start doing a lot of surgery on our legal framework because the governing law, as I have indicated, is the Constitution, and it has already laid the background. What we are supposed to do is fit in one amendment in the Public Health Act and another one in the National Health Services Act to harmonise the laws. What will remain are the guidelines and the policy framework. 

Mr Speaker, having said that, I think, the people of Chilubi will be affected by the devolution of health services, by and large. Hence, I suggest that the report be adopted. However, it should not be totally supported because some of the artificial suggestions and recommendations, especially those borrowed from Kenya, may not be workable in our environment.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, I am grateful to you, and I must mention that I hope to minimise my time to give other hon. Members a chance to debate.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to pass my message of condolences to the people of the Republic of Malawi, on the loss of their Vice-President and others who died in the aircraft that crashed. Equally, I offer a message of comfort and solidarity to Hon. Jay Banda, and I wish him quick healing.

Mr Speaker, from the outset, I must mention that I do not support this report. On page 20, the Committee talks about recapitalising the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. I do not know whether our country is sick or it is the leadership that is sick.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, resume your seat.

Mr Munir Zulu resumed his seat.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: There is a Motion before you. Why should you start talking about the leadership being sick? Restrict yourself to the Motion. Let us start on a new note this time around, please.

You may proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, we have doctors who graduated, but they cannot attend to patients if they are not registered with the Health Professions Council of Zambia (HPCZ) because they have not been granted authority to work as medical doctors. What we need most is doctors dotted around the country working at health facilities, not recapitalisation of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. We can recapitalise the Zambia Flying Doctor Service, but are there airstrips in Lumezi, Chasefu and Luangeni? Recapitalisation will favour the few contemporary bourgeois. This country should labour to place doctors at each and every medical facility. We cannot be saying that we need flying doctors when most of the aircrafts we use in Africa are third-hand. Where do we place the safety of our human resource? We must speak to the needs of vulnerable people. We cannot be speaking to the needs of those who are already comfortable.

Mr Speaker, pages 4 and 8 of the report have my main matter. Part 4.3 of the report on the devolution of primary healthcare services to the local authorities says the Committee was informed that the Alma-Ata Declaration of 1978 defined primary healthcare as essential healthcare made universally accessible to individuals and acceptable to them through their full participation and at the cost the community and country can afford. I will speak on the term “universally accessible to individuals and acceptable to them.” Some hon. Member in the House said that this is an “artificial report.” One hon. Member is being kept in a health facility against his own wishes and aspirations –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, resume your seat.

Mr Munir Zulu resumed his seat.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is what you are talking about part of the Motion? We are talking about the provision of primary healthcare. So, restrict yourself to the Motion. I will not guide you again. Instead, I will curtail you if you continue on that path. 

You may proceed. 

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, from the word go, I mentioned that I am not supporting the report because what is happening and what is in the report is like the South and the North poles. Had this report been crafted in a manner that speaks to what is happening in the provision of healthcare, I would have supported it. We cannot be saying that essential healthcare should be universally accessible and acceptable to individuals but then do the opposite, as the report says. I fall sick and you force me to go to a different hospital from the one I want. That is not what the report is saying. Had this report said “we can compel you to go to any hospital,” I would have supported it.

Mr Speaker, on page 8 of the report, the Committee talks of Navision to fast-track approvals. Navision is the software capable of managing processes of operations, finance, supply chain and commerce and analytics which the ministry utilises. I do not know how many times this country is going to change software. Can we be consistent with what we do? If we develop a software this year and then change it next year, what value are we getting? There is no value.

Mr Speaker, I appreciate the mover of the Motion and the Committee for the work it did. Unfortunately, I do not support this report.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House, on behalf of the people of Bweengwa.

Mr Speaker, to start with, let me simply say I support the report on the Floor of this House. However, I just want to make a kind request to the two ministries; the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. Let me also echo the same words as my brother from Dundumwezi. The devolution of primary healthcare services to the local authorities will bring many problems if we do not implement it properly. Right now, I do not know exactly what is happening. This is why I am saying the two ministries should sit and see how the procurement department from the Ministry of Health is going to be well co-ordinated under the local authorities. I do not want to see a situation such as the one I have experienced under a local authority, in which the procurement department failed to implement some projects in my constituency. I think, it is very important that projects are implemented countrywide. Let us ensure that some of the things in these facilities are looked at well. When the Committee was going around, one time, it arrived at a local authority and found that the local authority had procured some medicines that had already been procured by the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA). That is not good. It is like there is already room for pilferage, and it is not good for this country. It is very important that these two ministries sit together. We have to have people who can manage health at the local level. We are dealing with life. I think, what we need is a complete overhaul of the people in the procurement departments at the local level. We need to put a proper system or take the procurement personnel from the Ministry of Health to manage the system in the local authorities well. Giving local authorities the responsibility to procure drugs using the current system will be suicidal for the Government. The report is okay. We cannot always allow people to make the decision to purchase drugs for Lumezi, Dundumwezi or Bweengwa at the Central Government level, when the people who know and understand these areas and monitor them on a daily basis are available. They are not given an opportunity to say what they want for the local people. All I request is that we dismantle, first of all, the procurement departments at the local authority level and take the efficient procurement department from the Ministry of Health to the local authorities. The procurement departments at the local authorities might not manage to do the work. Already, we are seeing many constituencies failing to utilise the K30 million Constituency Development Fund (CDF) due to the inefficiency of the local authorities.

Mr Speaker, I support the report, but I request that the two ministries sit down and put people who are very capable of doing the right thing at the local authorities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this important Motion on the Floor of the House, on behalf of the people of Chembe.

Mr Speaker, from the outset, I want to say that health is very important, hence when we want to transition to something else, it is important to be cautious. I support this report as it has given me insights on what is happening on the ground pertaining to primary healthcare.

Mr Speaker, I want to say two or three things here. Firstly, the most contentious issue is the organisational structure. We have not yet married the organisational structure of the Ministry of Health to the local authorities. That is the duty of the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC). As we carry out the devolution, we are supposed to know the reporting structure; who reports to whom and the qualifications people should have. Conflicts already exist because somebody with a Doctorate of Philosophy (PhD) reports to a Public Health Technologist at a council. Therefore, the reporting system or the organisational structure has to be harmonised if we are to go forward in this area.

Secondly, there is the issue of emergencies. As my hon. Colleagues have said, the health system deals with emergencies, but the bureaucracy in the sector delays the disbursement of funds. Therefore, disbursement of funds should be streamlined. Currently, we are struggling with procuring. If the culture of delays will follow the devolved functions, we will not go anywhere. A system of disbursing money to do with health issues should be in place.

Mr Speaker, one of my hon. Colleagues said that there is a fear that people will lose their positions during the devolution exercise. It is up to the LGSC to work on this because it knew that the devolution programme was coming. The commission was supposed to mentor its personnel, give them psychological care and encourage them to study. No one with a Master’s Degree will allow himself to be reporting to a diploma holder. That cannot work. It will bring conflicts and the people who will suffer are the ones on the ground in our communities. So, it is important that the LGSC works hand in hand with the Ministry of Health to harmonise the reporting system. At the same time, there must be a system of disbursing funds for health matters because they are emergencies. The LGSC must give psychological care to its personnel if the devolution of primary healthcare is to be successful. 

Mr Speaker, those are the few words I wanted to share. I support this report on behalf of the people of Chembe because it gives insights into what is happening on the ground.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate. May I pass my condolences to the Republic of Malawi on the passing of its Vice-President and nine others. I also take this opportunity to congratulate Hon. Kasune, though she is not here, …

Ms Kasune: Hear, hear!

Mr Samakayi: … on her appointment as Foreign Affairs and International Relations Minister.

Interruptions

Mr Samakayi: Oh, Minister of Justice. Sorry.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Samakayi: That means if I were the appointing authority, I would have given her that position.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Samakayi: Mr Speaker, I also want to congratulate my hon. Colleagues who have been given new mandates.

Mr Speaker, we have been on this road of decentralisation since 2002. I think, most of the issues that have been raised in this report were tackled in the process of moving decentralisation forward. I am just baffled to hear that the legislation and health policy in the Ministry of Health is not aligned with the National Decentralisation Policy. I doubt that because for all I know, all legislation that hinged on decentralisation was harmonised, including the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, I also note that the report has recommended the creation of a devolution transition authority. This idea was imported from Kenya. I think, we have our own way of doing things. The Decentralisation Secretariat was mandated to facilitate and co-ordinate all activities on decentralisation. Therefore, there is no need to come up with another authority to manage the decentralisation process. After all, we are already at the end of the road. Why do we want to bring in another authority?

Mr Speaker, I also note that the report said that the Planning and Budgeting Act No. 1 of 2020 is in conflict with the Constitution. Wow! Any legislation that is in conflict or is inconsistent with the Constitution is null and void. So, the people responsible are supposed to bring amendments to this House to address those inconsistencies.

Mr Kambita: Hear, hear!

Mr Samakayi: Mr Speaker, I think, my last comment is on the management of finances and all the other issues. All these matters were tackled. There is the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and the Local Government Equalisation Fund (LGEF). These funds are meant for the activities that councils undertake. There should be a strategy to ringfence resources that are going to decentralised functions. Resources should not be misused at any time by council management. A strategy to ringfence resources was put in place. I think, that has been mentioned. What we need to do is look at how the procurement process is being done in the ministry at the district level. I totally agree that we cannot sacrifice the health of our people with poor management. I believe that we have procurement officers in the Ministry of Health. We need to come up with a system of emergency procurement committees for this sector so that we are not found wanting when it comes to procurement of urgent vaccines or whatever it could be.

Mr Speaker, let me now talk about staff qualifications. Very good observations were made on this, but the recommendation I want to make to the LGSC is opening up the qualifications of Council Secretaries. It should not be lawyers only or those with qualifications in Public Administration serving in those positions. The other qualifications in the Ministry of Health and other sectors must be included so that people can aspire to be Council Secretaries or Town Clerks. I think, this would help a lot. It would give comfort to the staff moving to the local authorities.

Mr Speaker, we cannot stop decentralisation. We have come very far; we have to move forward and synchronise where we think things cannot move well. Decentralisation is here to stay.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Mr Speaker, I am looking at the report that I studied last night. I know many hon. Colleagues on this Committee. The mover is my hon. Colleague. However, what came to my mind first when I read the report was the interest of the country, the interest of the nation.

Mr Speaker, I have listened to several debates on decentralisation and devolution of power. We are using these words interchangeably without deeply understanding them. Decentralisation is the movement of functions from the Central Government to the lower organs, like moving functions from the Ministry of Health headquarters at Ndeke House to Kawambwa District under the same Ministry of Health. Devolution of functions is the transfer of functions from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. They are not the same things. So, we should not miss this opportunity and mistakenly think that the devolution of power is making a medical director at the district level with a Master's Degree report to a Council Secretary with a first degree, and say that that does not matter. 

Mr Nyambose: Question!

Mr Chitotela: Human resource matters are key in motivating and implementing any project. You cannot have proper implementation of a programme where the personnel are demotivated and frustrated. First, capacity building is required in the local authorities.

Mr Speaker, this brings me to the issue of Ward Development Committees (WDCs). I want to make an appeal to the Secretary to the Cabinet, Mr Kangwa, because we were together even in the last Administration. He knows why these things were put on hold. It was because first of all, we needed to build capacity and create programmes that would make this process functional. I do not know why we rush things in Zambia. In another Committee, we had an occasion to sit with the Permanent Secretary (PS) in the Ministry of Health. He said that the ministry submitted the difficulties of devolving functions from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, but the Cabinet Office directed the ministry to go ahead with the process. The Cabinet Office will not be in Kawambwa and, so, it must listen to the people who play a part in the implementation of this programme.

Mr Speaker, I want to cite the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services as examples. When these two ministries introduced the Children’s Code Bill, I had an occasion to engage the hon. Ministers. I told them why we had requested that the Bill be put on hold. It is because certain things are very difficult to implement in Zambia. However, the Bill was brought to the House and it passed. Here we are, today, crying to amend the same Bill. If they had listened to advice, we would not be in this situation. So, I have difficulties supporting the devolution of functions from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development.

Mr Speaker, let me talk about devolution of funds from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. Question number one: Have we built the capacity to utilise the funds? We are dealing with a critical component of society, that is, human health. We are dealing with a critical component of every society. So, I appeal to the Secretary to Cabinet to not force matters on the Civil Service simply because we have been dealing with this subject, and therefore rush through it. If that happens, we will come back to this House, tomorrow, to reverse the same decisions we passed in this Parliament. I do not want to be a part of a Parliament that passes things and brings them back later for reversal because people are supporting issues based on certain individuals being there. I have difficulties supporting this Motion on principle because the interest of the nation comes first to me than the individuals involved.

Mr Speaker, on human resource devolution, surely, let us be real. One trains for seven years to become a doctor and two years to be a specialist doctor. The PS in the Ministry of Health submitted that all District Health Directors are Master’s Degree holders. When devolution happens, a District Health Director in the Ministry of Health in Kawambwa, for instance, will be reporting to the Director of Health at Kawambwa District Council, who has a diploma in Public Health from Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Chitotela: If you had studied Human Resource Management, you would understand how such things frustrate individuals and how people fail to perform because of frustration. I am not demeaning people with lower qualifications. I am saying that a policy meant to be implemented must benefit people.

Mr Speaker, the Local Government Act mandates the local government authorities across the country to create WDCs as the fourth layer of the governance structure. Which council in the country has created a WDC? A WDC is now seen as a child of the CDF. This is against the law. Why can we not first ensure that councils create WDCs? If you read the Local Government Act, you will see that it is very clear that WDCs are supposed to be created by councils. The WDCs fall under the Director of Planning, and they should be in every district as they are the fourth layer of governance. The Local Government Act further says that councils should create capacity for WDCs so that WDCs can collect resources on behalf of councils and retain 5 per cent of the monies. Which council in the country has implemented that requirement? If there is one, I am not aware of that council. Today, we want to devolve some functions and their budgets from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. Unless we are preparing for a crisis in this country, we should not implement this, because we will reach a point where certain district facilities will not run because of inadequacies in human resource and failure to procure goods and services in the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development.

Mr Speaker, going forward, we need to be a nation that does not depend on benchmarking tours. I was just thinking that some benchmarking tours we undertake are to some nations I cannot mention, which are smaller than Luapula Province. Then, we want to implement ideas from there. It is like visiting Chitotela Village and thinking that what is working there can also work in Luangeni. That is impossible.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Ah!

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, do not bring me into your debate. Why do you like talking about Luangeni?

Mr Chitotela: I have interest in Luangeni because –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You are an hon. Member of Parliament now, and I think, there are certain things you have to graduate from. Etiquette and proper conduct are important. You were once a Minister. So, certainly, you need to live above board as an hon. Member of Parliament and former Minister. Adherence to the rules is important.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, Lusaka is the capital city of Zambia and Luangeni is a village in the Eastern Province, Chipata District in particular. Chitotela is a village in Pambashe Constituency. So, I can mention those areas. As long as somebody was bornin Luangeni, he has no right to stop me, who was born in Chitotela Village, from mentioning Luangeni.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, I sincerely thank you for the opportunity to debate the Motion on the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, before I delve into my debate, I would like to convey my sincere condolences to the people of Malawi on the demise of their Vice-President. I have in mind, my dear colleague Noel Kabambe, who is my former workmate at Sightsavers. He worked as Country Finance Manager for Sightsavers in Malawi, and he is a personal friend to the deceased Vice-President. So, I convey sincere condolences.

Mr Speaker, as we debate this report, I have in mind the performance of the health sector in the country. I will recap the performance of the health sector in the country under the decentralisation process. The Ministry of Health has gone through reforms in the past regimes. I remember that when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) came into power, there were very important health reforms that were launched, which actually introduced the Central Board of Health, an institution that administered the health sector very effectively. Of course, that was deliberate. Later, the idea of the Central Board of Health was abandoned and the Ministry of Health went back to standing on its own and carrying out every activity. I must declare interest here because I am a former employee of the Central Board of Health, where I worked in finance together with my colleague, Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya.

Mr Speaker, the health reforms were targeted at implementing the decentralisation process. You will agree with me that the decentralisation process is the substance of the whole process, and devolution becomes the procedural part of the decentralisation process. So, there are two items here that we need to identify; the substantive part and the procedural part. Decentralisation, as a process, is the substance of what we want to achieve while devolution is the procedural part that takes functions to the lowest organs in order to crystallise the whole process of decentralisation. So, when devolving functions to the lowest organ of an institution, certain things need to be achieved. Of course, the functions also have to be reformed. At the moment, the local authorities are not in a position to perform those functions that are devolved from the Ministry of Health to them because of the lack of capacity that exists there. 

Mr Speaker, you will agree with me that in the Ministry of Health, the health functions are quite specialised. I can see that one doctor is looking at me intently here so that he can hear what I am about to say. Health services are very specialised. There are also protocols that do not come once but continuously. For example, probably, there is an international protocol about how to administer a certain drug or deal with a certain epidemic or anything that could crop up. Usually, the protocol comes through the headquarters of the Ministry of Health, and then it is disseminated to all the organs up to the lowest health centre and community health worker. The protocols and their managers are well set out in the whole process, starting from the ministry headquarters up to the lowest worker, who is the community health worker or the traditional birth attendant. All these protocols have to be communicated so that people speak or sing from the same hymn book. We need to take care of this before we can talk about devolution. Now, if a disease spreads today, and the Council Secretary in my constituency, Zambezi East, is in charge of the health centres and the health posts, how would these protocols be implemented? This situation might end up being a challenge because communication has to come from the Ministry of Health. Are we saying we are going to build capacity starting from the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development going downwards?

Mr Speaker, in my opinion, the first step should be taken towards the preventive function of healthcare services. When you look at primary healthcare closely, you will see that it is concerned with prevention, treatment and probably, patient care, but more especially prevention. I think, the function of preventing diseases can be handled by our local government authorities and, therefore, we can devolve that function to local authorities, but treatment and patient care should remain with the Ministry of Health for obvious reasons. One of the reasons is what I have just mentioned; health protocols are complex and specialised. Health inspections, health education, and the like can be handled by the councils, but other functions that require specialised attention and international protocols coming all the way from the Ministry of Health to provincial administrations, district health administrations and health centres should remain with the Ministry of Health.

Mr Speaker, I would like to support the ambitious endeavour to devolve the primary healthcare function, but it can only be achieved on a piecemeal basis. Of course, taking advantage of what I have just mentioned, please, let this be done step by step, starting with devolution of the disease prevention function first …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambita: … and then the rest can remain with the Ministry of Health.

 I thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for allowing me a space to make a few comments on the debate on the Motion on the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services, ably moved by the vice-chairperson.

Mr Speaker, I think, my hon. Colleagues have shared interesting concerns. I will adopt part of the debate by the hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe as mine. What we seem to be having a challenge with, is understanding the Decentralisation Policy. Like my hon. Colleague elaborated, decentralisation simply entails taking public services and portfolio functions from the Central Government to the lowest organs closer to the people with matching resources. Re-alignment of portfolio functions is another aspect. Portfolio functions are re-assigned from a particular ministry, for example, to another ministry. That is re-alignment. I think, if there is a ministry that is so devolved, it is the Ministry of Health. It starts from the bottom up to the top. We have health posts, mini hospitals, district hospitals, general hospitals and referral hospitals, in that order. I think, that is the point the hon. Member for Zambezi East was trying to emphasise.

Mr Speaker, these gaps we are trying to address, how are they going to affect the delivery of healthcare services to our people, in line with the Sustainable Development Goal (SDG), which speaks to universal health coverage? The local authorities have had the public health function, for example. Let us start from there. How has that worked? How have they dealt with non-communicable diseases (NCDs)? If they have dealt with them successfully, we can devolve the primary healthcare function to them.

Mr Speaker, we have talked about reporting structures. My hon. Colleagues have spoken about the way the local authorities are structured. We have heard about the creation of a commission of some sort on this matter. In as much as it is desirable to devolve portfolio functions of the Government, we need to be cautious so that we do not create a crisis in the end. The disciplinary matters that obtain in the health sector are totally different from those in the local authorities, and the reporting structure is totally different. We already have the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) that deals with personnel matters for the local authorities, but we want to create another commission to deal with personnel matters in health services. What about accreditation and the bodies that regulate and manage the health professionals? How will that work? I think, we need to reflect so much as we implement these policies so that we do not create challenges along the way. Looking at the report, I can see that there is resistance even from the personnel in the health sector along the line of rail. Let us pay particular attention to the views coming from the professionals themselves so that we make informed decisions. Like I said, let us not mistake devolution for re-alignment of portfolio functions. We have seen ministries collapse. The Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs collapsed and all its portfolio functions were taken to the local authorities under the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. How is that working? We need to carry out a review to see how that is working.

Mr Speaker, the local authorities are grappling with the additional responsibility to disburse the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and implement the projects. Let us be realistic, especially those of us who are here, the hon. Members who have a closer link to the local authorities. We know the capacity of our local authorities. We know the challenges there. So, we cannot come here and pretend that all is well, and transfer additional responsibilities to the local authorities, when we know the challenges that are there. If we insist on re-aligning the primary healthcare function to the local authorities, what environment have we created for that to be implemented without the teething challenges?

Mr Speaker, I reluctantly want to support this report. We have to be cautious, especially those of us here, who know the challenges we are facing every day in just implementing the programmes of the CDF. The issue is not devolution. The Ministry of Health is well-devolved. What could be the challenge is channelling resources to the structures already on the ground. I think, everyone here has a clinic in his or her constituency, where people go to before they think of going to the hospital. That is already devolution. How much resources are we channelling there? We are not solving a problem by re-aligning. Like I said, let us understand the distinction between re-aligning of portfolio functions and devolution so that we make an informed decision. We need to have a clear understanding so that we do not create challenges during the implementation of this programme. Stating who is going to report to whom is very critical. What structure are we going to create? Saying we are going to create a commission that will be dealing with health personnel matters is not enough. How much resources are we going to channel to the local authorities that have been failing to generate their own revenue to enable them to provide certain services to the communities? As people’s representatives, let us be realistic so that we do not disadvantage our people, who deserve quality healthcare on the ground.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to respond to this very important debate on the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services on the devolution of primary healthcare services in Zambia. I appreciate and take note of the observations and recommendations made by the Committee, and as per established practice and procedure, my ministry will submit a comprehensive action-taken report.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health has devolved primary healthcare services to the local authorities and has attached to the local authorities, health staff to perform the devolved health functions. Further, accounts have been opened in various districts for the financing of the devolved functions. That is how far we have gone.

Mr Speaker, allow me to give my specific comments on some of the observations made by the Committee and hon. Members who have spoken to the report. First of all, I want to thank all the hon. Members who spoke and the Committee for the work it has done. This issue is very important and, it is good that you asked the Committee to go and find out what is happening. I hope that this can be done every six months so that all of us move together. I agree with my hon. Colleagues who said it is one thing to say that we are devolving but it is another thing to do it properly. How we devolve is what will matter in the end. The problem we have is that this is a constitutional matter. The decision to devolve functions from sector ministries to the local authorities is a constitutional matter. Yes, it is true that we must take certain functions to the local authorities, and then, they must be given matching resources in an orderly manner so that we reduce disruption in service delivery. Health, indeed, is a matter of life and death. We are not decentralising sports and arts, we are decentralising health services to the people. So, how we move, as a nation, is really important. As the hon. Minister of Health, I am very happy with the debate by many of the hon. Members. I was able to follow, listen and learn something, and I have taken note of the suggestions that have been made.

Mr Speaker, specifically on the adequacy of the policy and legal framework, the recommendations of the Committee are appreciated. It is true that there will be a need to align the policy framework with the legal framework. That work has started and it is being spearheaded by the Decentralisation Secretariat, which has the full mandate, of course, working with the Ministry of Justice.

Mr Speaker, when it comes to issues of staffing, the proposal that we come up with a service commission is appreciated, but we do not really need to do that because we already have the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC). Maybe, what we need to do is find better ways and means for the LGSC and the sector ministry to work closely regarding health issues. Remember, it is not just the Ministry of Health that is devolving its functions. Almost all ministries are doing that. Therefore, the real questions we should ask are: Which functions should we take to the district level? How far can we decentralise? How much power can we give? What issues must we give the local authorities? People talked about the promotion of health. That is a very important point. They also talked about disease control and prevention, which are very important functions that must go to the ground. Immunisation and Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) testing must also be devolved to the local authorities. So, yes, I agree that we must be very cautious so that we do not disrupt the functions which are very important.

Mr Speaker, the recommendation and justification given by the Committee on why district health offices and Level 1 hospitals should not be devolved to local authorities is noted. The Committee cited the definition of health services in the Sector Devolution Implementation Plan and the practice in the region. I think, we need to continue to have this dialogue but, of course, we must move cautiously. I think, those who are talking about moving cautiously, step by step, are correct, and as the Government, we intend to do so.

Mr Speaker, all in all, I think, it is important that we are all agreeable that it is necessary to devolve certain functions of primary healthcare to the districts for effectiveness because devolution gives power and resources. Hon. Colleagues have seen what has happened in the country regarding the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), for the first time. It is unprecedented. Once the President devolved money through what we now call the CDF, for the first time, in all the 116 districts, even in a very small and remote district in Zambia today, people can boast of having a school. They can boast of having a clinic or another facility. Even the children we used to neglect because a Member of Parliament was not influential enough to speak and push the construction of a school now have access to schools. Under financial devolution, we have seen equity implemented in all the 116 districts. We have seen all our children getting skills. We have seen all our children going to school. We have seen everything that we never saw. Some of us have been Members of Parliament for a long time so we can tell you this story better. The development that is taking place in the constituencies, in the remote parts of Zambia, is unprecedented, and it is a good thing for our people. Every Zambian now has an opportunity to benefit.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to say that I agree with some of the observations. I also agree that we should not be very comparative. It is good to compare ourselves with other countries and look at the best practices, but I will tell you that even some of the countries that have been mentioned in this debate have big challenges, and in some cases, disasters. So, we must not sugar-coat some examples when we come here. Those hon. Colleagues who might not have gone to the cited countries, or who are not on the Committee and do not know what is happening, must not be misled. We must not mislead ourselves and the country.

Mr Speaker, decentralisation implementation is dicey. It is a very good thing and very important, but we have to be cautious. I am glad that the debate showed that we are one. We have a lot of work to do. There is a need to harmonise existing legislation and clear staff transitions. There is also the issue of the Constitution and its implications. So, we must take our time cautiously. The plan already indicated that we must devolve gradually. As you know, this is a constitutional matter, so once it was announced, all functions in the whole country had to be devolved. That is why we must do it, but we must do it cautiously. I agree with all the speakers who spoke very eloquently. I also appreciate them for speaking as One Zambia, One Nation. As a senior Member of Parliament, I am happy when I hear people debating issues without using political language, which normally spoils our debates and then we do not get what one says.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, please, wind up.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I want to conclude by saying that the report on the devolution of primary healthcare in Zambia is representative of the happenings on the ground. I have taken note of the observations and recommendations, and I will study them further and prepare the action-taken report for the august House.

Mr Speaker, once again, I thank my hon. Colleagues for their contributions, which were very interesting and enriching. We will do our best, as a sector. Take note that there are many other sectors. When we say we are devolving functions to the local councils, we are not devolving them to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development; we are devolving them to the councils, which are local government organs with sub-structures below them.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Nakaponda: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Members who have debated this Motion. These are: the hon. Member for Kamfinsa, the hon. Member for Dundumwezi, the hon. Member for Chilubi, the hon. Member for Lumezi, the hon. Member for Bweengwa, the hon. Member for Chembe, the hon. Member for Mwinilunga, the hon. Member for Pambashe, the hon. Member for Zambezi East and the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

Mr Speaker, I call upon all hon. Members of Parliament to support this Motion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

______

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

MEASURES TO CURB DEFORESTATION

(Debate resumed)

342. Eng. Daka (Chadiza) asked the Minister of Green Economy and Environment:

1. what measures the Government is implementing to curb deforestation, countrywide;

1. how much money was allocated to control the vice as of November, 2023;

1. whether there are any policies in place to control the cultivation and curing of Virginia Tobacco, which is one of the major contributors to deforestation; and

1. if there are no such policies, why.

The Minister of Green Economy and Environment (Mr Mposha): Mr Speaker, when business was interrupted yesterday, I had just informed the House of the initiatives that the Government has put in place, through my ministry, aimed at working with the community in the quest to regenerate the most deforested areas. I was about to mention the measures, and the following are the measures:

1. the Government enacted Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 11 of 2018 that allows communities to participate in the management and conservation of forests through the formation of Community Forest Management Groups (CFMGs). Currently, 258 CFMGs are managing a total of 6.3 million ha of land under Community Forest Management (CFM), countrywide. In addition, there are 1,469 honorary forest officers working hand-in-hand with the CFMGs to protect the community forest areas; and

1. the Government, working through my ministry, has developed viable livelihood options that provide alternative sources of income to lessen dependency on forest resources as people’s source of revenue. A total of 127,496 households in the Northern Province, Muchinga Province, the Eastern Province, Luapula Province, the Central Province, Copperbelt Province, the North-Western Province and the Western Province are being supported by several donor-funded projects in community forestry, community enterprises, conservation, agriculture and diversified climate-resilient livelihoods. Furthermore, forest carbon is recognised as a forest product and, therefore, communities are refraining from destructive methods of tree harvesting and adopting conservation methods that help reduce deforestation and earns them income through emission reduction programmes. It is worth noting that about 227,671 households are expected to benefit from various carbon projects in the Eastern Province, the Central Province, Muchinga Province, Luapula Province, the Northern Province, Copperbelt Province and the North-Western Province.

Mr Speaker, in 2023, the Government allocated a total of K12,550,000 towards the programme. The ministry is running a number of projects that are supporting efforts to curb deforestation. Over a period of five years, from 2018 to 2023, a total of K944,215,100 was allocated towards curbing deforestation.

Mr Speaker, currently, there are no policies to restrict the cultivation of tobacco.

Mr Nkandu and Mrs Chonya conversed loudly close to Mr Mposha.

Mr Mposha: Sorry, Mr Speaker. I am being distracted, may I be protected?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You may proceed, hon. Minister.

Mr Mposha: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, currently, the ministry has no policies to restrict cultivation and curing of tobacco as it is just like any agricultural cash crop being grown by our farmers in the country. In the interest of food security and other developments, the Forests Act No. 4 of 2015 has provided for opening up of land for agricultural purposes or any other development. 

Mr Speaker, it is important to note that tobacco growing and trading in the country is regulated by an Act of Parliament through the Tobacco Board of Zambia, which is a statutory body under the Ministry of Agriculture, established in 1968 through an Act of Parliament; The Tobacco Act Chapter 237 and Chapter 238 of the Laws of Zambia. The ministry, however, has been engaging and encouraging organisations supporting tobacco farmers to venture into alternative methods that reduce dependency on natural forests for tobacco curing. An example of such institutions is the Japan Tobacco International (JTI) Leaf Zambia Limited that is supporting the establishment of forest plantations on degraded agricultural lands, and has a vision of having all tobacco procured cured from planted trees, not natural forests, by 2030. So far, a total number of 942.86 ha of commercial plantations and 1,880 ha of farmer wood lots have been planted. The plantations have been established in Nkeyema and Kaoma districts of the Western Province. Furthermore, the company has invested in designing new kilns for tobacco curing that are more than three times more efficient compared to the conventional kilns being used, for example, 6 kg of wood to 1 kg of tobacco, compared to 26 kg of wood to 1 kg of tobacco. Those efforts are being made in the Western Province, the Central Province and the Eastern Province.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Eng. Daka: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Chadiza, I appreciate the responses the hon. Minister has given on the set of questions submitted –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

_________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT: ENHANCE SECURITY MEASURES TO SAFEGUARD THE LIVES OF TAXI DRIVERS WHILE ON DUTY

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: We have an item for debate to be introduced by the hon. Member for Chilubi, Mr Fube. It is not a Motion and it will not be seconded. At 1855 hours, the debate will end and the debate will lapse.

Mr Fube: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for this opportunity to move the Motion that the House urges the Government to Enhance Security Measures to Safeguard the Lives of Taxi Drivers While on Duty.

Some hon. Members started leaving the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let us avoid movements.

Hon. Member for Chilubi, you may proceed.

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, this Motion is non-controversial. It is informed by what has been happening in the transport sub-sector, which provides economic benefits to taxi drivers. I will lay the background to this issue. I realise that according to the new Standing Orders, this segment has been given just thirty minutes. I think, for those who may be willing to take up part of the time allocated for debate, I will try to provide them some time. 

Mr Speaker, the basis of this Motion is the many deaths we have had, as a nation, arising from security gaps that have been identified. We have had situations in which taxi drivers have lost property and their lives. I think, the latest incident of loss of life happened about four days ago. We lost a young life. As leaders, and as concerned lawmakers, we need to speak to the question of security. I realise that as I stand here, on this Floor, the Motion talks about taxi drivers in general. However, I am aware that we have taxi drivers who are catered for by e-platforms that are controlled by the private sector.

Mr Speaker, the starting point is that I recognise what the Road Traffic Act No.11 of 2002 has covered, and that is what I am going to base my debate on. Section 2 of the Act refers to a taxi cab. So, within that Section, is where what I will be talking about is. I also do recognise that Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 19 of 2024 was introduced in June, and it tried to address some of these issues. Among the issues that this SI addresses is the provision of driver details, such as the mobile telephone numbers, the vehicle number plate and the National Registration Card (NRC) by the e-platform operators. These details are used to identify drivers. I have to indicate that the SI and the Road Traffic Act No. 11 of 2002 have lacunae. This situation has exposed taxi drivers to danger in this area of our liberalised economy. The lacuna I am talking about is that the e-platforms provide the name and the mobile telephone number of the client requesting for a taxi, but as we may know, some people use subscriber identity module (sim) cards registered in other people's names. Those who intend to commit crimes use sim cards that are registered in other people's names, hence it is very difficult sometimes, for the police or the law enforcement agencies to use the details of e-platform clients for investigations when a crime has been committed. This means that there is a gap and that drivers are not protected. Drivers have lost their vehicles and money, and in the worst-case scenario, their lives.

Mr Speaker, I am pushing this Motion because we need to protect those who are not covered by the e-platform. The platforms need to provide enough information so that when a person has lost his life or property, the police or other law enforcement agencies can have a starting point. I do recognise that the SI also talks about providing details such as the distance covered by the driver, the fare charged and where the driver is going. This means the e-platforms should be equivalent to tracking systems.

Mr Speaker, “safeguarding” means that what is there is not enough to protect the drivers. I am calling for the enhancement of security measures to protect drivers. One of the measures I am suggesting is introducing a system of capturing customers details properly. Another measure is linking officers from law enforcement agencies to the transport companies like Unka-Go, Yango and Ulendo. I know that Ulendo has become passive of late. These companies should be linked to the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security so that sharing of information and investigation of cases is not troublesome when there is an occurrence like death. These companies should properly share information and be linked to institutes like SMART Zambia Institute, which has the highest level of confidentiality. I know that the Government manages a lot of information, anyway. These companies that handle sensitive information are supposed to be linked to the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) or SMART Zambia Institute so that when there is death or loss of property, the law enforcement officers will have a starting point for investigations. So far, I may not conclude that the law enforcement officers are doing nothing about the deaths that have occurred, but I think, they are finding it difficult to investigate them. I am of the view that having information on the e-platforms would help officers know who the assailant or murderer was in case of a death. In the latest case of Yango driver, Aaron Katongo, who was killed, the police started fishing. They went on a fishing expedition, when information is supposed to be available through the SMART Zambia Institute and ZICTA. They are supposed to trace someone, even if they are guessing. For instance, –

Interruptions

Mr Fube: We lost bola yesterday.

Laughter

Mr Fube: For instance, if I registered a sim card in a different name, I should still be tracked down using a system that is well co-ordinated.

Mr Speaker, I think, I am not the only one who would like to talk about this issue. I would like to submit that there is a need for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to take keen interest in the deaths, loss of property and many other factors to do with security for taxi drivers –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker:  Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think, the House is surprised that this debate has been timed. This has been necessitated by the new Standing Orders that came into effect on 1^st April, 2024. They also allow other hon. Members to debate until 1855 hours, after the hon. Member has debated. The Standing Orders are still being fine-tuned, as the Hon. Madam Speaker mentioned yesterday. I am sure, during the course of the week, you will be given the hard copies of the new Standing Orders.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, I appreciate the mover of the Motion, which is urging the House to urge the Government to enhance security measures to safeguard the lives of taxi drivers while on duty. I would have appreciated it more had he said “safeguarding the lives of drivers,” because it is not only taxi drivers who are in danger.

Mr Speaker, the ugly situations in which drivers are hired, abducted and then killed, should be a concern to all of us, lawmakers in this House, both on the right and left sides. No one has a spare life; we all have one life. On the issue of abduction, let me say that we are living in modern times, where a privileged few can afford to have trackers in their boxers. A privileged few can afford to have trackers in form of chips on their wrist watches, but the masses are not privileged to have such devices. So, we have a problem, as a country. For example, if I am a target of abductors, I can put a tracker on my vehicle so that my wife can monitor my movements on my mobile telephone. We are living in times when you can have a tracker on your car, with a third person monitoring your movement so that there is a story to be told tomorrow. Tracking is no longer an issue for ZICTA alone; there are private companies that provide trackers. You can pay $10 for a tracker a month and Internet connectivity. The police might not know that they are trailing someone who is also being monitored somewhere by a private company. Some private citizens might not afford this. I could have a tracker in my shoe so that if I am not there tomorrow, someone could tell the story of what happened. As technology is advancing, I expect the security of the nation to be ten steps ahead. The fear that the people of Lumezi have is that we are moving at par with the State. Ordinarily, the State should be two or three steps ahead. Why are we behind? This is not an issue only for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security but also the hon. Minister of Technology and Science. Why are we behind with technology? Our men in uniform can no longer be colloquial with their operations. We cannot continue like this. We are dealing with the lives of citizens.

 Mr Speaker, I could go to a barbershop behind Parliament Building and have a chip placed right here (pointing at his shoe). When the story of what happened to me is told, the police statement would be parallel to the reality. It is only that this matter is about investigations; I would have cited an example. There is a vehicle in the hands of the State, located on a truck somewhere. Where will that leave the State?

Hon. Member: Question!

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, this is an important Motion, which should be appreciated by all the hon. Members on your right and left. It is not controversial. What we should just agree on is that taxi drivers using companies, such as Yango, should have a security device in form of a chip so that their movements can be traced, and the police are not seen to be incompetent in their operations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to debate. I will be brief in my discourse on the debate on this Motion that was ably moved by the hon. Member for Chilubi.

Mr Speaker, the Motion is non-controversial, as the mover mentioned. However, in supporting the Motion, I would like to argue a little on a few cases. Yes, we need to implore the Executive to put safety measures in place, especially that it has been given the power to take care of our security and control the security systems of the country. However, as we request for these things, we need to come up with suggestions and not just make blanket statements. At the end of the day, the Motion, which is non-controversial, turns into a political Motion for the purpose of simply trying to gather some support from gullible Zambians out there who might think that this Government is not paying attention to the current issues.

Mr Speaker, I observed that the hon. Member who has just debated, the hon. Member for Lumezi, brought out a few suggestions on this matter, but the mover of the Motion was short of bringing to the fore, tangible or workable suggestions that would help protect taxi drivers. He made blanket statements like “we need to put measures.” Anybody can do that. Even somebody from a street, a kaponya from Cairo Road, can say “let us put measures to protect taxi drivers.” That statement ends there and does not make him special or concerned. We are all concerned about the tragedies that have been happening. Security measures are quite difficult to discuss or debate on a forum like this one because they are detailed. When investigations are being undertaken, they are not for public consumption. Data from the Zambia Information and Communications Authority (ZICTA) and the like, is not for public consumption. A case in point is the one that recently happened, concerning a Yango driver who was probably involved in an unfortunate situation and he lost his life. Investigations are still ongoing, and we cannot divulge serious information about them. There are systems embedded on applications like Yango. Other countries have Uber and many other transport companies. There are security features imbedded on such applications that help the security agents to trace the movements of the players involved. We cannot debate those issues here publicly. I know that there are systems in place.

Mr Speaker, when a person moves such a Motion, he should also bring clear suggestions on how to better the game. 

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr Kambita: Instead of simply saying that Zambia should have won and that it needs a new coach, you need to bring better suggestions than where you ended. Yes, it is a nice Motion and we are debating it here, but we need to think outside the box, like thinking about other security features we could add to the system. That would be very helpful to the public, one way or the other. There are a few negatives in systems as technology advances and this is one of the negatives. Therefore, we need to come up with suggestions that can improve the technology which is already good.

Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to appeal to the mover of the Motion to suggest specifics which can help us improve security for these vulnerable people when he winds up his debate, instead of making blanket statements. In my opinion, the Motion is simply a blanket statement.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Mr Speaker, my condolences to the family of the late Aaron Katongo, a Yango driver who was brutally killed.

 Mr Speaker, I support the Motion. I also thank the mover of the Motion for a well-thought-out debate. We need the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) to regulate the registration of online taxi applications. Systems must be put in place. For example, installation of tracking systems on the vehicles to be registered on the online taxi applications. These companies should also put audio and video recording systems in the vehicles so that when a driver goes missing, the investigative wings would simply get the information from the vehicle and analyse it. They would even have the faces and voices of the assailants. This would make it easier for the investigative wings to track perpetrators of crimes. Furthermore, there must be collaboration between the online taxi companies and investigative wings, time and again, especially that as a country, we have the safe city security infrastructure, which can be used to track criminals involved in the hijacking of cars. Other countries are using the applications to ensure the safety of their citizens. Even countries such as Tanzania are using them. That is what we must do. Here, we even have criminals registered as drivers under Yango. They are the ones collaborating with other criminals to put the lives of our people at risk. This could be avoided if the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) were engaged to properly scrutinise those who are being registered as drivers on online taxi applications. It would be easier to ensure the safety of our people if such measures were introduced. Right now, it is no longer safe for anyone to ride on Yango taxis. By the way, how did we find ourselves here? We had Ulendo, a Zambian online taxi company. It was doing perfectly. Today, we have a multinational company from Europe operating, and it is the biggest company in this industry. Ulendo has been liquidated. We are seeing companies being liquidated, including banks.   

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: How did we find ourselves here?

Mr Speaker, we should have maintained Ulendo because it had the best security systems in place. It used to conduct background checks on the people it would register on its system. Today, that is no longer the case. As long as one has a vehicle, one can register it on the Yango Application from the comfort of one’s home, without Yango checking the person who has made the registration. That is unacceptable. In fact, as a representative of the people of Mpika, I submit that Yango be suspended until it puts adequate security measures in place.

Hon. UPND Member: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: You can question because you are a participant in what is happening.

Mr Speaker, we are talking about a very important issue here. The current situation is putting the lives of our people at risk. Those who are benefiting are saying “Question!”

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Hon. UPND Member: Benefitting from what?

Mr Kapyanga: From the same.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, I support the Motion because it is very progressive. I also repeat that the Government suspends Yango until security systems are put in place to safeguard the lives of our people.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you have been guided several times. You are not allowed to mention institutions that cannot defend themselves here. You do not have a right, whatsoever, to propose that a particular institution should be banned.

Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity you have given me to add a word to the debate on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, this is a very good Motion, and as a House, we need to look at it objectively because at some point, it might be my brother or sister who will be involved. We will be doing a disservice to ourselves by antagonising such a beautiful Motion. Several issues have come out of the Motion.  Some hon. Members have made suggestions concerning this issue. I want to avoid saying “boma iyanganepo” each time there is a situation to be addressed. Matters of security should be addressed by ourselves first. We should initiate measures to address them. I would have loved to see someone from that sector initiate such a Motion so that we hear how they want to be protected because it is them who drive taxis. They are the ones who know where they go. It is very unfortunate that lives have been lost. This matter requires concerted efforts. It is said that he who feels it, knows it all. So, someone from that industry should guide us. As lawmakers, we will facilitate the process because this is an issue of national interest. I do not think the people who are driving taxis are not able to contribute to their security. I remember that last time, the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) talked about registering a certain company that would –

Interruptions

 

Mr Chinkuli: There was an outcry somewhere about that. People said that RTSA wanted to sideline them. This is an issue of national security, although it involves individuals. I would have loved a situation in which the Government came up with a monitoring mechanism to know who hired a taxi and which place –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

As the time is 1855 hours, I interrupt the proceedings and the debate lapses.

_______

The House adjourned at 1856 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 13^thJune, 2024.

____________

LAPSED QUESTION

2023 GRADE 9 AND 12 SCHOOL CERTIFICATES

345. Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts:

(a)          whether the Government conducted a survey to ascertain the number of youths who did not acquire Grades 9 and Grade 12 school certificates, as of August 2023;

(b)          if so, what the number of youths was, for each grade and segregated by gender, as of the date above;

(c)          how many youths were employed in the formal and informal sectors, as of the date at (a); and

(d)          what measures the Government is taking to create more job opportunities for the youths. 

The Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu): Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts did not conduct a survey. However, the Ministry of General Education releases information on Grade 9 and Grade 12 results as part of its mandate.

Madam Speaker, as stated in part (a) above, the Ministry of Education releases information on Grade 9 and Grade 12 results. The available information released by the Ministry of Education on Grade 9 results for 2023 stated that out of the 291,894 candidates who sat for the 2023 Junior Secondary School Leaving Examination, only 156,315 candidates obtained certificates while 109,803 obtained statements of results and 25,776 failed the examination. Further, out of the 163,408 candidates who sat for Grade 12 examination, only 111,116 candidates obtained certificates whilst 48,893 obtained statements of results and 3,354 failed the examination. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts will engage the Ministry of Education to establish disaggregated data by gender.

Madam Speaker, there is no present data on the number of youths employed in the formal and informal sectors. However, according to the 2021 National Labour Force Survey, the percentage of youths employed in the formal sector stood at 31.7 per cent whilst the percentage of youths employed in the informal sector stood at 47.4 per cent.

Madam Speaker, the Government has put in place a number of initiatives to address the situation. These are:

1. the grant and loan component of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to support youth enterprises development at the constituency level as well as ensure equal resource distribution;

1. the Citizen Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) loans, which young people can access to help them set up businesses for job creation;

1. the National Youth Development Strategy, which focuses on empowering and employing youths in job-rich sectors such as education, health, agriculture, defence, construction etc;

1. National youth scheme under the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts providing grants to vulnerable and incapacitated youth to enable them to participate in the economy;

1. the general Youth Empowerment Fund under the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts providing equipment on loan to young people for any business proposal submitted;

1. the Internship, Volunteer, Apprenticeship, And Graduate Programme under the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts that provides job skills to youths to improve their employability;

1. vocational skills training being provided in various Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training (TEVET) institutions to equip youth with practical skills to enable them to participate in the economy;

1. the Graduate Empowerment Programme under the Ministry Youth, Sport and Arts providing equipment as start-up capital to the youth graduates from the youth resource centres under the ministry.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.