Tuesday, 10th October, 2023

Tuesday, 10^thOctober, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

PRESENCE OF PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM TEMIRAH ACADEMY IN THE PUBLIC GALLERY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils as well as teachers from Temirah Academy of Lusaka West in Chilanga District.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia and, indeed, on my own behalf, I warmly welcome our guests into our midst.

I thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR KANG’OMBE, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KAMFINSA, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON THE GOVERNMENT’S POSITION ON THE MONTHLY REVIEW OF THE FUEL PUMP PRICE

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, allow me to congratulate you on your recent award, which you received while you were on tour of duty.

Congratulations, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I wish to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed to Her Honour the Vice-President in her capacity as Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam Speaker, last year, the Government decided to migrate to the monthly fuel price review. However, we hear that it now intends to shift its policy on this matter. The public would like to know what the current position of the Government on fuel pricing is.

Madam Speaker, is Her Honour the Vice-President in order to not come to this august House to inform the public what the Government’s policy position is on the pricing of fuel insofar as the monthly reviews are concerned?

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: As the matter does not qualify to be admitted as a matter of urgent public importance, I advise the hon. Member for Kamfinsa to file in a question of urgent nature.

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, MR MPOSHA, ON THE WATER SITUATION AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, to raise a matter of urgent public importance. Before I do so, let me follow suit in congratulating you, like my comrade from Kamfinsa, Hon. Kang’ombe. We thank you for putting our Parliament on the map. I also wish my comrade, Hon. Binwell Mpundu, the Member of Parliament for Nkana Constituency, a happy birthday.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

There are no comrades here. There are only hon. Members. So, please, refer to them as hon. Members or the hon. Member of Parliament for a particular constituency.

You may proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance. I withdraw the reference to Hon. Binwell Mpundu, the Member for Nkana Constituency, as my comrade.

Madam Speaker, the matter is directed to the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Madam Speaker, there is poor sanitation at the University of Zambia (UNZA), where all the pupils from across the country go to learn. When the pupils finish school, they apply to that university, and all of us here have children there who risk getting many diseases. Is the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation in order to sit quietly when he is the Member of Parliament for Munali where the university is? I remember that the President directed him to sort out this matter, but he is just quiet and seated comfortably while drinking water.

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central, they are not pupils, but students.

Please, file in a Question for Oral Answer under Standing Order 74.

MR CHEWE, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUBANSENSHI, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT, MR KABUSWE, ON THE PLIGHT OF JCHX MINING COMPANY LIMITED

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Lubansenshi Constituency, to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

Madam Speaker, you may be aware that the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, has managed to bring back Vedanta Resources Limited to resume operations in Zambia. Last week, over 890 employees who used to work at No. 4 Shaft JCHX Mining Company Limited in Chililabombwe were placed on forced leave because Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) has apparently failed to pay that company US$30 million. As a result, the contractor, who is responsible for mine development, production and capital projects, has failed to keep his workers at Chililabombwe Copper Mine. At the same time, the said company has failed to pay other contractors and suppliers. As a result, it has made the harsh decision of sending over 890 employees onto the streets.

Mr B. Mpundu: Bafula.

Mr Chewe: The question I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is: What measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that those employees go back to work? Is the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development in order to sit there, well-dressed as he is, and not inform the hon. Members of Parliament and the general public the action the Government will take to ensure that the 890 employees go back to work?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, clearly, this issue does not qualify to be a matter of urgent public importance. So, you are advised to file in an ordinary question for the hon. Minister to address your concerns.

MR KAMBITA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR ZAMBEZI EAST, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON ZAMBEZI DISTRICT HOSPITAL

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise this matter of urgent public importance. Allow me to give the background to the issue at hand before I state it.

Madam Speaker, on the Floor of this House, I rose in a similar fashion on a matter of urgent public importance concerning Zambezi District Hospital. You rightly ruled and requested the hon. Minister of Health to issue a ministerial statement. The hon. Minister did that and made a Government assurance that the new Zambezi District Hospital would be built. Following a follow-up question by the Member for Solwezi East, Hon. Katakwe, as to when the foundation stone of the building would be laid, the hon. Minister made another assurance to the effect that it would be laid in the first quarter of 2022, and that was last year. I am raising this matter of urgent public importance because that did not happen. When time passed, I rose on another matter of urgent public importance, and you rightfully ruled that I needed to file in a question of an urgent nature. I went to the Journals and Table Office and filed in a question of urgent nature, but I received a reply from the Office of the Clerk denying me the opportunity –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Zambezi East!

You are now bringing in matters that touch on administration. If this is an administrative issue, there are other ways of dealing with it, not as a matter of urgent public importance. If you were not satisfied with the manner in which your question was handled, there are other avenues available. You could have seen the Clerk of the National Assembly or come to my office. We have to comply with the order of proceedings. So, please, can you quickly raise the matter.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, in her response, the hon. Minister stated that I was making the impression that the hospital in question would collapse the next day. Yesterday, Zambezi District Hospital collapsed, and all the reagents, medicines and other items in the laboratory were soaked in rain water. Further, the roofs of the maternity wing and the theatre were blown off, and the walls cracked. We have now reached where I feared we would reach, and that is the reason I am rising on this matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, there is a Lunda proverb that goes mukwenu wakudya nindi kanoka wukumumwena kukubaba.

Hon. Members: Meaning?

Mr Kambita: It means that you will know the person whom you are going to eat a snake with when you are actually roasting the snake. When you are roasting the snake and your friend is spitting, just know that you are not going to eat the snake together.

Madam Speaker, when I brought up this matter earlier, I used all sorts of semantics to explain the situation at that hospital. However, there has not been any will to eat this snake with me. That is the situation now.

Madam Speaker, I now want to convey a message to Her Honour the Vice-President, since the substantive hon. Minister is not here. I am reliably informed that she has a bereavement, and I wish to convey my condolences.

Madam Speaker, the matter of Zambezi District Hospital is now serious and needs urgent attention.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious guidance on the matter.

Madam Speaker: When you start talking about snakes, then, it becomes more complicated.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, you have not stated the reason the roof was blown off. What caused the roof to be blown off?

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, there was a storm. The building was built in 1939, and none of us here was born in that year. Since the building was built in 1939, it is weak and has cracks. It actually succumbed to strong winds, and that is how the roof was blown off and the walls cracked even further.

Madam Speaker: I recall hearing in the news yesterday that there was a storm and that that is what caused the roof to be blown off.

Her Honour the Vice-President is here. Maybe, she can shed light on the matter.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for bringing up this issue here. I know that he has given a lot of background information as to what happened, yet it was a storm that blew off the roof and caused the damage. As we always say, hon. Members should not wait to come to Parliament to raise such issues. So, I hope, the hon. Member has been to my office.

Madam Speaker, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) can take immediate mitigation measures. That is where the hon. Member should have started from and we would have quickly looked at the current situation before reconstructing the hospital. The DMMU will look at the situation, as it is now a disaster.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Zambezi East is advised to liaise with the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) under the Office of the Vice-President to see how the issue can be addressed.

Hon. Members, many of you have since indicated. You had not indicated at the time I was looking at the list earlier.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Okay. Since we have a practice, I will allow a few follow-up questions, starting with the hon. Member for Mkushi North, because we need to attend to the core business of the day.

Mr C. Chibuye (Mkushi North): Madam Speaker, it is not actually a follow-up question. I had indicated to rise on a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker: In that case, before the hon. Member for Mkushi North raises the last matter of urgent public importance, I will allow three questions directed to Her Honour the Vice-President, starting with the hon. Member for Chitambo.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, I am grateful that I have been given this chance to ask a question on this matter.

Madam Speaker, many things are happening in this country. Most of the time, we sweep issues under the carpet, and such one issue is the one on the Floor. I will soon raise an issue concerning Chitambo, on which a Government assurance was given. It is very important for the Executive to take the matters that we raise on the Floor of the House very seriously because they affect the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President has said that she considers the situation in Zambezi, following the matter raised by the hon. Member, a disaster. Why are we being reactive, not proactive?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chitambo for this question. He stated that we are being reactive and not proactive.

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question you asked the hon. Member for Zambezi East concerning what caused the roof to be blown off. There is a lot of work that must be done in this country. Indeed, there was a commitment on the hon. Member’s request. However, when the Government gives an assurance, it does not mean the project will be completed overnight. Even if the Government had started constructing the hospital, I believe, it would not have been completed from the time that the question was asked.

Mr Mabeta: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: The disaster was, more or less, caused by nature, and that is why we are considering it as such. We will look at the situation, and we are committed to doing that. I am sure, the resources to address the issue are there. It does not mean that when a commitment is made or a Government assurance is given, then, immediately, the project will be implemented and completed. We should differentiate.

Madam Speaker, the building collapsed not because it is old, but due to wind. This issue will continuously be brought up by many hon. Members. School roofs are blown off and some schools that have had their roofs blown off are even the newer ones. The older ones were constructed better, and we respond to such type of emergencies. So, I hope, hon. Members understand why I am responding in this manner. It does not take away the fact that there was a Government assurance. I believe, that assurance still stands at the ministry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, the hon. Member who raised this matter raised it two years ago and implored the hon. Minister of Health to do something. He said that we would face a disaster if the facility was not worked on and, true to his word, that has come to pass. Why does the Government, sometimes, take a very casual approach to matters of this nature?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, do not turn this session into the Vice-President’s Question Time by taking advantage of this window.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Bangweulu for this question.

Madam Speaker, I think, I have responded to this kind of questioning, and the hon. Member cannot say we are taking a casual approach. We respond to many issues. However, according to the hon. Member for Zambezi East, the hospital was built in 1939. Surely, it was supposed to have been replaced a long time ago.

Mr Mabeta: Even under the PF (Patriotic Front)!

The Vice-President: I do not like naming Governments, but that could have been done, indeed, by the previous regime. The urgency of the matter is not about two years ago. The Government has a programme, and I still assure the hon. Member that the project will be implemented. Immediately the issue was brought –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Her Honour the Vice-President is answering questions, but you are busy talking and laughing as you please. Please, let us observe discipline and the decorum of the House.

May Her Honour the Vice-President continue.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, there is nothing casual about this. No Government would be casual about the lives of people. It is a reality that the Government has to plan. When something happens, you plan. It does not have to be a disaster. The situation in Zambezi is now a disaster, but that does not mean that the Government is casual. There is a lot of infrastructure that needed to be replaced five years ago, and we are still struggling. It is not that the Government did not know the state of the hospital. It knew, and it is not being casual. Our colleagues should not take advantage of the fact that they are seated on the other side. We are going to work on the hospital. The situation in Zambezi is now a disaster, and we respond to any form of disaster.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: I had said that I would allow three questions. However, I will skip the hon. Member who was supposed to ask the next question because the hon. Member for Zambezi East has indicated.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity.

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the responses Her Honour the Vice-President has given so far. However, when I raised this matter, the hon. Minister of Health indicated that remedial measures would be taken and that she would request her officers to come up with a budget, which she did. Bills of quantities (BoQs) for Zambezi District Hospital were prepared with my support and sent to the higher authorities. What happened to the remedial measures that were supposed to have been taken and were well provided for in this year’s Budget?

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Before Her Honour the Vice-President answers that question, a point of order is being raised by the hon. Member for Chinsali.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order on the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker, who is sleeping in the House.

Laughter

Hon. PF Member: It is true. Look there. Look!

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, please, let us learn to observe decorum. Is that a point of order that one can raise?

Mr Mukosa: He is not observing decorum, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: It is not admitted.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I am quiet because you are making noise. You are busy chatting and exchanging notes, and laughing loudly for that matter.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, it is difficult for me to answer the hon. Member’s follow-up question as to what happened to the remedial measures that were supposed to have been taken and were well provided for in this year’s Budget. He said that a study has been done, but the work has not been done. I cannot say exactly what happened. However, the year is not over, and the Government undertakes the works meant to be undertaken in a particular year and reserves resources for the projects. The money might still be there because we are still in 2023.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: As earlier indicated, hon. Member for Zambezi East, please, engage the Vice-President’s Office.

Can we proceed.

MR C. CHIBUYE, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MKUSHI NORTH, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON WHY THE FOOD RESERVE AGENCY IS NOT RELEASING MAIZE FOR COMMUNITY SALES

Mr C. Chibuye (Mkushi South): On a matter of urgent importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent importance is raised.

Mr C. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance is directed to the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, the hunger situation in our constituency and Mkushi South is alarming now. In the past, the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) would offload maize and hold community sales, and I am speaking on behalf of all my colleagues from rural constituencies.

Madam Speaker, currently, a gallon of maize costs K40 and adding that up –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, before you even go that route, the issue –

Mr C. Chibuye remained upstanding.

Madam Speaker: You may resume your seat.

Mr C. Chibuye resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: The issue of hunger was debated in this House during the debates on the President’s Address and the Budget Address. Please, engage the hon. Minister or the Vice-President’s Office on whether your constituency qualifies to be given relief food instead of raising the matter here because doing that will, definitely, not put food on the tables of your constituents. So, please, follow up the matter with the hon. Minister and Her Honour the Vice-President.

I think, that concludes matters of urgent public importance.

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ACTING AUDITOR-GENERAL

82. Mr Kafwaya (Lunte) asked the Vice-President:

whether the Government is aware that the Acting Auditor-General who approved the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of the Republic for the Financial Year ended 31^st December, 2022, is above the constitutional retirement age of sixty years, thereby holding office illegally;

if so, why the Acting Auditor-General has continued to hold office in contravention of Article 252(1) of the Republican Constitution; and

what the Government position on the report that was signed by a constitutionally disqualified office-holder, is.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, the question on whether the Government knew that the Acting Auditor-General is above the retirement age of sixty years is immaterial because –

Interruptions

The Vice-President: I am giving the reasons.

Madam Speaker, this is because he is not the substantive holder of the position. He is acting to ensure that there is no gap in the functions that are supposed to be performed by the Auditor-General. Matters relating to eligibility of appointment of persons to specific –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member for Nkana and the hon. Member seated next to the hon. Member for Lundazi, please, can you observe some silence. There is a lot of talking and laughing in that corner. Please, take note. Next time, you will see the back of the door.

May Her Honour the Vice-President continue.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I was saying that matters relating to eligibility of appointed persons to specific positions only arise at the time that their appointment is being considered through the stipulated procedures of the law.

Madam Speaker, the Constitution does not preclude any person who is above the retirement age from acting as Auditor-General when there is a vacancy. The exclusion in relation to age under Article 252 is tied to a person who has been appointed to hold the Office of Auditor-General after satisfying the procedural requirements for appointment under Article 249 of the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, it is imperative to note that the Acting Auditor-General has vast requisite qualifications to act as Auditor-General, being an accomplished public sector audit professional, professional accountant and a public financial management specialist with over thirty years of experience gained over time during his service in the Office of the Auditor-General, where he rose to the position of Acting Auditor-General from 2015 to 2018.

Madam Speaker, as stated, the person who has been appointed to perform the functions of Auditor-General is only performing those functions in an acting capacity, so as to ensure that there is no gap in the functions that are supposed to be performed by the Auditor-General. He is not the substantive holder of the position and, therefore, there is no contravention of the provisions of the Constitution. A contravention can only arise if he was duly appointed in accordance with the provisions of Article 249 of the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, the report that was approved by the Acting Auditor-General is valid, as the person who approved it is acting in his position. This is supported by the Interpretations and General Provisions Act, Cap. 2 of the Laws of Zambia, which provides that any reference in a written law to the holder of an office is construed as a reference to the person for the time being lawfully holding, acting in or performing the functions of the office.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President has quoted Article 52 of the Constitution in answering the question, and she has taken away the Acting Auditor-General from the autonomy of acting. Now, the same person has been appointed as the substantive Auditor-General. Is she confirming that the appointment is illegal?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member for Chilubi that I am not confirming any illegality because the appointment of the Auditor-General has a process that includes ratification by this House. The Auditor-General can only be appointed through the established process, and that is it. So, we do not have anybody who is appointed until after this House has been part of the appointment.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, in response to the important questions raised by Hon. Kafwaya, Her Honour the Vice-President confirmed that the age requirement is very explicit and that it cannot be changed in any context. Is she, therefore, confirming that the appointment of the Acting Auditor-General is null and void?

Madam Speaker: I do not know if the hon. Member was listening to the answer. Please, let us listen so that we do not repeat questions and waste time.

Her Honour the Vice-President can respond for the sake of the hon. Member for Kamfinsa, who did not hear the earlier answer.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I think, I have clearly stated the Government’s position. Nonetheless, I thank the hon. Member for the question because it gives me an opportunity to clarify.

Madam Speaker, I do not think that I have stated here that the Acting Auditor-General is substantively appointed, because the procedures for having an Auditor-General have to include this House, but this House has not been part of any appointment in this regard. So, there is literary no one who is sitting in that office as the substantive Auditor-General. There is an acting Auditor-General performing the functions of an Auditor-General.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President has said that there is no one who has been appointed because the appointment process includes nomination by the President, ratification by this Assembly and swearing in. Has the President nominated a disqualified person? What is the Government’s position on the matter?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I definitely do not want to go beyond the question.

Mr Kampyongo: After yakosa.

The Vice-President: Taikosele bane.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Hon. Members, there is nothing difficult here. You have to understand that when it comes to ratification, you have to look at the reasons that the appointing authority gives and what kind of appointment is being made. We have talked about the substantive office-holder in this case. There are different conditions under which people work in Zambia, and that includes those who have retired. So, definitely, I am not saying that the President has nominated a disqualified person. Have we read the conditions under which this appointment was made and how ratification is done by this House? It is a process that we will have to be part of. A nomination is not an appointment.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President has referred to different circumstances under which a person is employed. The Office of the Auditor-General is a constitutional office established by a constitutional provision that is clear in providing that a person who is sixty years cannot occupy it and has to retire. Dr Mwambwa is sixty-four years. Under what other circumstance can he occupy that office?

Madam Speaker: Again, this question was answered.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, when the President nominates –

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Do not worry. There is nothing wrong here.

Madam Speaker, when the President nominates a disqualified person, then, there is a duty to be performed here. We cannot –

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

The Vice-President: No, listen. You are debating something before its time.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

The Vice-President: Even in court, you will be told that this cannot be dealt with.

Mr Kafwaya: Question!

The Vice-President: You are part of the process. That is what I have said. You should wait and see –

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

The Vice-President: When the nominated person is brought here for ratification, that is when we will argue on whether he is eligible or not. We are debating something that is not before us now. The process strictly provides that a person who is appointed should be scrutinised by this House. So, why can we not relax. How do we read somewhere about something that is supposed to come to us and start debating? Is it that we have nothing to talk about?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Let us relax. When the appointment is brought here for ratification, hon. Members will debate it. Remember, we cannot bring an illegality here. We will be very ready to defend any decision then. Today, there is nothing to defend.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to pose a question on the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Speaker, Mr Ron Mwambwa is a qualified person, and we cannot take that away from him. He also helped to set up the Office of the Auditor-General in Liberia. However, I would like Her Honour the Vice-President to clarify the prerequisite. I think, Article 252 of the Constitution is clear on the process. The process has started and the appointment will be brought for ratification. Does it entail that only one person has been appointed, looking at the age that has been cited?

Madam Speaker: The same question is being asked in a different way.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, hon. Members know all the answers. I do not know why they are asking.

Madam Speaker, I agree that there is no question about the professional and academic qualifications of the Acting Auditor-General. The question is constitutional. This is why I said that I will not start debating something prematurely. The process has begun somewhere and this House has its role. You have heard what other institutions have done and started debating, yet the people appointed are brought here. I think, that is not the way we proceed in this House. Otherwise, we will judge people here and convict them, because we have the right to do that.

Madam Speaker, let us wait. When his appointment is brought before this House, we will debate the condition on which it will be brought under. Will it be permanent and pensionable? Will it be this and that? That time will come. For now, my colleagues should calm down and wait. Why should we debate something that is not before us?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. In order to avoid being repetitive, in accordance with Standing Order No. 67, we make progress.

IMPOUNDED SUGILITE TRUCKS

83. Mr Chitotela (Pambashe) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

what the Government’s position on the two impounded trucks loaded with sugilite in Butute area, west of Milenge District, on Wednesday, 4^th October, 2023, is;

why the illegal mining of sugilite in Luapula Province has persisted despite Government assurances; and

what measures the Government is implementing to stop the illegal mining of sugilite in order to ensure that the mineral is mined for the benefit of the nation.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Madam Speaker, welcome back, and congratulations on your achievement.

Madam Speaker, the two trucks remain impounded and under the custody of the Zambia Police Service at Mansa Central Police as investigations are ongoing.

Madam Speaker, the Government is implementing various interventions to arrest illegal mining of sugilite in Luapula Province. The ministry, in conjunction with various stakeholders, such as the Zambia Police Service and other law enforcement agencies, has intensified compliance monitoring and patrols to curb illegal mining of sugilite and other minerals in Luapula Province and across the country. In addition, the Government, through my ministry, commenced geological mapping on 14^th August, 2023, to establish the extent of sugilite in Luapula Province. We started with Chembe District and will move to Milenge and continue with the programme. So far, data has been collected by staff from the Geological Survey Department under the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. The reason for the exercise is to enable the Government to implement measures aimed at ensuring that the sugilite is mined for the benefit of the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, the people of Luapula Province are greatly concerned about how illegal miners are managing to break the barrier put up by the paramilitary officers guarding the mines. In Butute and Chembe, there is a contingency of paramilitary officers. How are the illegal miners managing to get into the mines, blast, mine and load materials without the State knowing?

Madam Speaker: For clarity, I thought you said Butete. Is it not Mitete?

Mr Chitotela: No, it is Butete, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Butete; that is my name.

Laughter

An hon. Member interjected.

Madam Speaker: Most likely.

Laughter

Mr Anakoka: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Before the hon. Minister answers the question, there is an indication for a point of order.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this point of order.

Madam Speaker, last week, – I raise this point of order pursuant to Standing Order 203(2), on the conduct of hon. Members, and it is on the Leader of the Opposition …

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Anakoka: ... and his colleague, the hon. Member for Chinsali.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Luena!

If you have any point of order arising from what happened last week, you know the procedure. You can submit a letter of complaint. You cannot raise a point of order at this stage. It is a bit too late.

Interruptions

Mr Anakoka rose.

Madam Speaker: Go straight to the point of order for us to be clear. Do not start giving a historical background.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Chinsali, with the intention of bringing ridicule and embarrassment on the Hon. Second Deputy Speaker, rose on a point of order.

Madam Speaker, our –

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let us listen to what he is saying.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 203(2) prohibits that behaviour. Is the hon. Member for Chinsali in order to hide behind a point of order when in fact his intention was to bring ridicule and embarrassment on the Hon. Second Deputy Speaker?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I warned the hon. Member for Chinsali to desist from raising such points of order. So, I think, that matter has been dealt with. However, if you are not happy, you can still submit a complaint. However, I guided the hon. Member that his point of order was made in bad faith and was not admitted.

May the hon. Minister proceed to answer the question.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for this question.

Madam Speaker, first and foremost, even in heavily guarded places, thieves still go in and steal. What is important is to expose the thieving. This Government has not been sweeping the dirt under the carpet; it has been exposing people doing illegal things and taking them to task. The Government has also been putting in place measures to curb illegal mining. As I have said in the past, minerals are being discovered by villagers or people who go to the fields because the country was not mapped. When people discover the minerals, they start using them. However, the Government is curbing the illegal mining of minerals. So, it is not sweeping anything under the carpet and it has put measures in place to make sure that the law visits anybody found doing illegal things.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is aware that in Zambia, we have a law called the Mines and Minerals Development Act, which is used to govern exploration, mining and disposal of minerals. I want him to confirm to this august House and the public whether the mineral we are discussing today is recognised under the laws of Zambia?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for this question.

Madam Speaker, I think, it was on the Floor of this House that I said that we were profiling minerals such as lithium and sugilite. Those minerals will be put on the list of minerals that Zambia has, but that will not stop us from mapping and exploring. Exploration and mapping are a way of searching for minerals, and we will do that. When we see the extent of mineralisation, we will announce to the public the minerals that will be part of the profile. However, some minerals may not even be on the profile of minerals.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, to ask a supplementary question on this very important topic.

Madam Speaker, in Milenge, there is a lot of sugilite, and I know that it is just on the surface. Can the Government move in and mine the mineral before illegal miners finish it so that we use the money and stop borrowing?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for this important question.

Madam Speaker, what we have now started doing will lead to what the hon. Member has asked. Sometimes, when you just go to a place and begin to mine, you realise that mining has overburdens. There is topsoil above the minerals and, sometimes, you create heaps where the mineral is and it becomes difficult to expose it. So, when you map, you know which area to mine and where there is no sugilite, and you plan your mining properly. If you just dig, you may leave more sugilite than you would mine. So, it is important to undertake mapping to expose where the mineral is and then mine.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, let me join many hon. Members of Parliament and the people out there who have congratulated you on your achievement.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development realises that mining is the backbone of our economy and that all eyes are on the mining sector. Clearly, the ministry is not moving fast enough for us to start mining. In one of the responses, the hon. Minister said that there are measures that the Government will take, but he did not state what those measures are. Does what is currently happening not worry the hon. Minister? This country is looking for revenue, yet illegal mining has continued. As he has rightly said, there are serious security barricades at the mine, but illegal miners penetrate, and the people are worried about the safety of the impounded trucks. What does the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development think and what direction can he give?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, if you understand mining, you will realise that drilling has a timeframe and so does mapping. You start with mapping, and I want to report to this House that the mapping for sugilite in Muombe was completed, and the officers will now start drilling. If you have been in the mining business, you will understand that there are certain things that you have to do. Whether you like it or not, it takes time to undertake drilling. I will give you an example of the mine for cobalt that we will open in Mingomba in Chililabombwe. So far, there are five drilling rigs on site, but it takes a number of days to drill one hole according to technology, and there is nothing you can do about that. Much as we would want to start mining tomorrow, we must allow the correct process to be followed. So, you cannot map an area in one minute, but in a number of hours. We all realise that Zambia is endowed with many resources.

Madam Speaker, we accept that we are late in undertaking exploration and mapping, but better late than never. We should have been undertaking exploration and mapping, and had we been doing that, we would not have had a scenario in which people walking in the streets and digging kandolo discover minerals like gold and sugilite on our behalf. That is happening because we were not exploring. We are late, but we will not bury our heads in the sand. We will still undertake mapping. We are accelerating the process as much as we can to ensure that the country begins to access the resources. If we do not do things in an organised way, however, crooks will benefit. However, if we do things in an organised way, the country will benefit. It may take time because there is science involved in mining.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, let me give the background to the question. I hope, my brother, the hon. Minister, will explain calmly to the people of Luapula, who are very excited. I think, the anxiety is high, and the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment will bear me witness.

Madam Speaker, the concentration of the Government is on Muombe Mine in Chembe, after which it will move to Milenge. However, the flow of manganese and sugilite starts from Mansa, Chembe, Milenge, Chifunabuli, Chipili, Samfya, Pambashe in Kawambwa, Bahati and Lupososhi districts in the Northern Province. If you check on the Luapula platform, you will find that the chiefs in the province are, at the moment, calling for a federal government system so that, maybe, they can start managing their own affairs because of the time the Government is taking to act and the rate at which illegal mining is being done by the Indians, Chinese and Caucasians. Every day, Proflight Zambia’s flights to Mansa are full, and people are getting agitated and wondering what is happening. The hon. Minister has told us in this House and Zambians that the ministry will undertake mapping and exploration. However, the people who live in those areas see the illegality taking place, and they have been asking what is happening, who is benefitting from that, where the Government is and when Zambians, particularly the people of Luapula Province, are going to benefit. We understand the technicalities of mapping, identification, and drilling for the ministry to know the minerals that are present but, at the moment, illegal mining is taking place. What is the Government going to do to assure the people of Luapula Province and, generally, Zambians have a share of their inherent benefit?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I want to assure the people of Luapula Province that this Government is making sure that they benefit from their resources. Firstly, there is mapping of sugilite, and that is the intention. Secondly, we will arrest whomever we will catch mining illegally. As I said, even when you put in place security measures at established mines and there is presence of the police, some people still misbehave. It is human nature and part of life.

Madam Speaker, it is important to note that the Government is undertaking mapping in Luapula Province at the moment, but that does not mean that it will end at Muombe and Milenge. We will map the whole country. If this Parliament approves the Budget, K160 million will be used for mapping, unlike the K8 million allocated in the previous years. That is intentional because this Government wants to map the whole country, including all the areas the hon. Member has talked about. We need to move fast, but the ministry sometimes does not reach its targets because it is understaffed, and that is why we intend to establish the Minerals Commission, which will be a regulator, to help us spread across the country. This country is mineralised and we, at the ministry, realise that we basically sit on minerals. For that reason, we have pushed to be given more resources for exploration and mapping. We will soon announce the mapping programme for the whole country. Many private sector institutions have come on board to partner with the Government, and we want to do the mapping correctly.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I will allow hon. Members from Luapula Province to ask supplementary questions.

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has confirmed that there is illegal mining of sugilite in Mansa District. The people loading the mineral into trucks are the ones we hear are being arrested, but those mining in small portions and loading the mineral in wheelbarrows are getting away with our precious stone. It is also possible that criminals from a named political party are conniving with the police to steal sugilite. Has the ministry deployed officers at strategic entry points like the airport and border posts to be on the lookout for would-be smugglers of sugilite?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I think, people are getting arrested because security has been enhanced. We have measures in place to ensure that whoever is mining illegally is arrested.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chonde (Milenge): Madam Speaker, mining activities in Butute have been going on for months now, and that was reported. Why did the ministry delay to make arrests, yet mining activities were being undertaken in Mansa Town, 70 km away? Is there a security lapse or is there a mining syndicate? Did something just go wrong? What could have happened exactly?

Madam Speaker: Similar question.

Mr Kabuswe: Yes, Madam Speaker, it is basically the same question.

Madam Speaker, as to what could have happened, I am not privy to that information. The truth of the matter is that the Government has put in place – The hon. Member needs to appreciate that our announcing that people are being arrested means that we have nothing to hide. If we had something to hide, you would not have been hearing about the arrests. I can give you several examples of when things were swept under the carpet in the past. However, this Government is exposing the wrong doings. We are not afraid of anything.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Speaker, the famous Muombe Mine is in my constituency. When is the ministry going to ensure that the mine starts operating and the community benefits from the precious mineral?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, the ministry has just finished mapping Muombe area, and it will map other areas as well. Further, our officers are currently carrying out a geophysical investigation in Muombe. We intend to announce the resources Muombe area is endowed with at the end of October or, maybe, in November, 2023, so that we can quickly go into partnership with whoever is interested and begin to mine.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I will allow two more questions.

Hon. Member for Bangweulu, you are from Luapula Province where, I believe, there is fish industry. Have you discovered some sugilite?

Laughter

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, the sugilite is being stolen in the neighbourhood.

Laughter

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, some years ago, I stumbled on information to the effect that exploration for minerals had been done countrywide in 1919 and, at that time, it had been established where the minerals were. However, the hon. Minister has informed this House that this is when people are discovering minerals. Exploration was done countrywide in 1919, in case he is not aware. Further, the hon. Minister has informed this House that the Government will start exploration, but he knows that one cannot carry out exploration works when one does not have an exploration licence for a particular area. So, whose exploration license is the ministry going to use to carry out exploration? The hon. Minister confirmed that carrying out exploration without a licence is a crime.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I am constraining myself from saying some things.

Madam Speaker, sometimes, that is why we say that people may just want to say something because they are in Parliament. The hon. Member stated that exploration was done countrywide in 1919, but what technology was there to tell us the minerals that we are seated on today? That is why this country could not develop. Some people should not have been leaders.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Let us not take that route. Just answer the question so that we can make progress.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, today, there is better technology. You can map a country in a very short space of time. The authentic information I have, right now, is that 45 per cent to 50 per cent of the country is explored, and that was done using old technology.

Madam Speaker, let me lecture a little.

Madam Speaker, in the past, when mining, there was what we were calling –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

May you not open a Pandora’s box. Let us just stick to the question to avoid issues.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I want to give examples of technology.

Madam Speaker, in the past, tailings were considered waste and thrown away, and that is why there is the Black Mountain. However, tailings are now being remined because technology. They are even causing fights. Similarly, there is now new technology for mapping and exploration. So, wherever we have mapped, we will have to go back. You do not stop mapping and exploration. That is why mines that already discovered resources have exploration departments. They explore on tenements to discover more resources.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member said that one can only explore when one has a licence. The Government has the mandate to discover and explore minerals and, when it does that, people can apply for licences to mine those minerals. That is how it works. So, it is the mandate of the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development to carry out exploration and mapping for the development of the country.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

I know that there are still indications, but we need to move on. You can still engage the hon. Minister and make any suggestions that you may have. We are all interested in sugilite. What is the value of sugilite? You can follow up that issue with the hon. Minister so that we can tap into the resource and deal with our economic issues.

CONNECTION OF CHIMWEMWE CONSTITUENCY WARDS TO THE NKANA WATER SUPPLY AND SANITATION COMPANY

84. Mr A. Banda (Chimwemwe) asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

whether the Government has any plans to connect the following wards in Chimwemwe Parliamentary Constituency to the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company system:

Kamatipa;

Twatasha; and

Itimpi;

if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, let me join my hon. Colleagues who spoke before me in congratulating you on the award.

Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to connect Kamatipa, Twatasha and Itimpi wards in Chimwemwe Parliamentary Constituency to the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company system. Part of Twatasha is currently connected to the system, with 695 regular connections. However, some households are irregularly connected to the network while others are not yet serviced.

Madam Speaker, Itimpi is currently connected to the system and is being serviced by five water kiosks and 168 individual connections. There are 1,420 households in Itimpi.

Madam Speaker, with regard to Kamatipa, I am glad to report to this august House that the area is currently also connected to the system and is being serviced by seven water kiosks. However, there are plans to provide household water connections once expansion works at the Bulangililo Water Treatment Plant are completed under Phase II of the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Project.

Madam Speaker, the number of households that will be connected, according to a count conducted by Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company, is estimated to be 1,693.

Madam Speaker, the plans will be implemented from June 2024 to December 2025.

Madam Speaker, as alluded to in part (a) above, the Government plans to connect Kamatipa, Twatasha and Itimpi wards of Chimwemwe Parliamentary Constituency to the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation system.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr A. Banda: Madam Speaker, I am sure, the hon. Minister is aware that there has not been water even in the old areas of Chimwemwe that are currently connected to the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company system for the past three months, and Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company has been struggling to give the people a water bowser. However, providing a water bowser would not be enough. This morning, somebody told me that a water bowser had not been taken to Chimwemwe and, as a result, there was a critical shortage of water. So, what urgent measures does the hon. Minister intend to put in place to alleviate the water situation?

Mr Mposha: Sorry, Madam Speaker, I did not pick the names of the places he mentioned.

Mr A. Banda: Madam Speaker, Chimwemwe Township consists of Buntungwa Ward, Lubuto Ward, Chimwemwe Ward, Kawama Ward and Itimpi Ward, which were mentioned. All those areas were connected to the main line a long time ago, and we usually had water for just an hour but, in the past three months, we have had no water, and we are at the mercy of Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company, which is providing a water bowser. However, one bowser is not enough because the area is vast. So, what measures will the hon. Minister put in place, in the meantime, to help us?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, the question is clear now.

Madam Speaker, first of all, I want to acknowledge that this time of the year, most areas are water-stressed. The people who depend on boreholes may have noticed that the water table is low. Equally, those who depend on our network from the surface source may have noticed that the water pressure is low. In terms of the measures we have put in place to address this, as the hon. Member has indicated, the provision of water bowsers to areas that are water-stressed is one such intervention. I will speak to the Board Chairperson today to see if we can increase the number of water bowsers. We will see if the commercial utility can get a water bowser from somewhere so that we assist people further.

Madam Speaker, people are facing serious challenges not only in the areas mentioned, but in a number of areas because of the period we are in. That is why I am grateful to you for spearheading the planting of trees. We must all work together and attend to the challenges of climate change, whose effects are real in terms of water supply and other challenges that have befallen us.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: This is a constituency-specific question. I want to catch up with time.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, perhaps, we are even underestimating the water supply challenges in Kitwe and, in particular, Chimwemwe. The hon. Minister talked about a water bowser, but there is no water in almost every part of Kitwe, and the water bowser is being sought like a diamond as I speak. Further, we agree that climate change has brought complications, but a huge river called Kafue passes through Kitwe. The issue is about supplying that water to the communities. Last week, Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Company (NWSC) gave me a quotation of K42 million for the connection of just one community. Water kiosks cannot serve the people of Chimwemwe, Ndeke or Mindolo, and it is better to connect their households to the network.

Madam Speaker, the ministry provided emergency funds with regard to the situation in Kwacha. Further, when the hon. Minister came to Kitwe, I accompanied him to the affected area, and he sought money because it was an emergency situation. The issue of water supply in Chimwemwe is also an emergency, as people have not had water for months. Does the hon. Minister not think that the remedy is to source emergency funds so that areas like Mindolo, Chimwemwe and Ndeke are connected to the network, as opposed to providing kiosks? The people in those areas cannot even afford to buy water from the kiosks, and climate change is not an excuse because there is water in Kitwe.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I am very grateful to the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana for this very good question. If anything, he was actually helping me to respond.

Madam Speaker, the communities we are talking about are old, and I totally agree with the hon. Member that one water bowser is not enough. I also agree with him that the solution is to connect the communities to the network; to get water from the source, the river, treat it and connect the communities. I sincerely think that these are things that should have been done when my brother was in that town, but to continue –

Interruptions

Mr Mposha: I want to be sincere. Do not play politics all the time. The people do not have water –

Mr B. Mpundu: Awe, abantu taba kwete amenshi!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Nkana!

You have the habit of debating while seated. You cannot debate while seated, and you have been warned several times. Please, do not debate or shout while seated.

Mr B. Mpundu: Awe!

Madam Speaker: What do you mean “awe”! You can go and debate outside. Leave the Assembly Chamber and go to debate outside.

Hon. Member for Chimwemwe.

Mr A. Banda: Madam Speaker, when exactly can we expect the second or third water bowser to be provided?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I was still responding to Hon. B. Mpundu, and I wish to finish my response.

Madam Speaker, it is important that as, hon. Members of Parliament, we are sincere. Those problems have not started today and, as the Government, we acknowledge that they are there. However, to continue thinking that they will be resolved within one week, two months or one year when there have been leaders before, like the hon. Member for Nkana, who was the District Commissioner (DC) – What did he do there? Today, he wants to belittle kiosks, yet those are some of the interventions that we put in place in densely-populated peri-urban communities so that, to some extent, people have water. The Government has the responsibility to ensure that our people in the stated constituencies have water. However, to think that that must be done now, like the problem has just started – The problem has been there. Even ten years ago and the time he was a DC, those problems were there.

Madam Speaker, you can see the sincerity of my dear brother from Chimwemwe, who is sincerely appealing for help on behalf of the people. To answer his question, I want to say that as I promised him, I will discuss the issue with the leadership at the commercial utility so that we can to see what can be done in addition to the provision of the water bowser. So, we will discuss the issue further. Tomorrow, I will have feedback on what can be done. Let me repeat what I said.

Madam Speaker, we must try to use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). There are challenges that I know, and I have discussed them with the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana. We are trying to see how the CDF can be used while working together with the commercial utilities. I thought I should say that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order, pursuant to Standing Order No. 65(b).

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, who is responding to the concerns of the people in Chimwemwe of Kitwe District, has opted to start apportioning blame, when he knows that his ministry was created after realising that the water sector is very important. His ministry used to be under the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development under my leadership. He also knows that we undertook major projects that he is proud of such as the Kafubu Sustainable Water and Sanitation Improvement Project on the Copperbelt.

Madam Speaker, is he in order to insinuate that the leadership that was there before did not care about the water sector when the ministry he is in charge of was created by our Government after realising how important the water sector is?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

The point of order has sufficiently been debated by the hon. Member in responding to the hon. Minister and justifying the creation of the ministry. I think, what the people want are results, and results do not happen within a day. So, let us continue working together for the benefit of the people.

We make progress.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, this is one of the worst questions. Ever since I came here, I have not asked a question like this, and may the souls of the departed expectant mothers rest in peace.

MATERNAL DEATHS RECORDED FROM 2017 TO 2022

85. Mr Miyutu asked the Minister of Health:

how many maternal deaths were recorded countrywide from 2017 to 2022, year by year;

what the causes of the deaths were; and

what measures the Government is taking to reduce maternal deaths.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (on behalf of the Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo)): Madam Speaker, let me also congratulate you on the tremendous achievement of your award. It makes this country and this House proud, especially given that you are female and are from Luena.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, this is a very serious question, and to do it the due justice, I will take a bit of time in answering it. Maternal death affects everyone in this House and throughout the country.

Madam Speaker, based on the Maternal Perinatal Death Surveillance and Response System, the following were the absolute numbers of maternal deaths, year by year:

Year Maternal Deaths

2017 809

2018 787

2019 726

2020 757

2021 696

2022 734

Madam Speaker, the causes of maternal death included:

hemorrhage, that is bleeding, which was the leading cause;

indirect causes, such as malaria, Human Immunodeficiency Virus/Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome (HIV/AIDS), heart diseases, anemia, pulmonary oedema and pulmonary embolism;

hypertensive disorders;

pregnancy-related infections; and

abortions.

Madam Speaker, the Government has put in place various measures to ensure that no woman dies while giving birth. The measures include:

capacity building of healthcare providers in emergency obstetric and newborn care (EmONC);

mentorship of healthcare providers, community health assistants and community-based volunteers on maternal health service provision;

strengthening of maternal healthcare supervision at all levels;

integration of reproductive, HIV and gender-based violence (GBV) health services. This model is meant to reduce the number of times women have to visit facilities to access services. For example, a woman who goes to access family planning services can also have access to HIV testing and GBV services on one visit, which provides the woman with comprehensive maternal health services and reduces the travelling time;

strengthened referral through procurement of more ambulances;

improved quality of maternal and newborn health services through procurement of equipment. For example, eighteen ultrasound machines and eighty infant incubators have been procured;

increased number of skilled service providers, which includes midwives and public health nurses;

strengthened coloration with co-operating partners through Technical Working and Inter-Agency Co-ordinating Committee Meetings;

education on emergency and birth preparedness through antenatal care clinics;

weekly maternal and perinatal death surveillance and response meetings where all maternal deaths are audited;

provision of essential drugs and commodities;

development of information, education and communication (IEC) materials on maternal health in order to increase demand for services at facilities;

community engagements where sensitisation meetings are held with traditional, religious and civic leaders on issues pertaining to maternal health;

training of community leaders as champions of safe motherhood; and

provision of insecticide treated nets during antenatal care visits.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, there is a poster at Kalabo District Hospital that says “no woman should die while giving life”. That poster has been there for a long time, and it is at the door on the maternity ward. Whilst the poster is there, however, expectant mothers still die in the presence of health workers, and the hon. Minister talked about enhancing the capacity of health workers. How can we prove that health workers are skilled when the number of women dying is rising? Every week or month, we lose expectant mothers.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, let me make it very clear that the Government is equally concerned about women losing their lives whilst giving birth. So, I thank the hon. Member for Kalabo Central for the concern. Not many would have asked this question. For him to ask it, it means that he gave it a thought. His follow-up question relates to women losing their lives when health workers are supposed to have skills.

Madam Speaker, as to why women are losing their lives, I gave a number of reasons in detail. I also stated the measures being taken by the Government to mitigate that. The most common reason women are losing their lives during child birth is haemorrhage or loss of blood. One mitigating measure I talked about is that of upgrading skills. However, let me ask the hon. Member this question: In terms of the overall targets, where is it that we, as a country, want to go? The Government is of the view that the numbers that I have given, year by year, from 809 in 2017 to 734 in 2022, are high. If you look at the Vision 2030, there are targets. We think that the number should be below 500 instead of those high figures. That is why we have taken measures to fight the causes. For example, we are working to prevent the occurrence of malaria in maternity wards as much as possible, and are sensitising the people. The number of maternal deaths went down to 696 in 2021, and this is a clear indication that we are heading towards attaining the 500 deaths target that I talked about. In 2022, the number of maternal deaths went up to 734 as a result of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), which caused havoc in the nation and prevented a number of expectant mothers from accessing clinics. The hon. Member’s concern about skills is being addressed to ensure that we have more skilled workers going forward. That will also include the recruitment of health workers that the Government has sanctioned.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 204 provides that a Member who breaches a rule of etiquette may be sent out of the House for one Sitting day, and I thought you directed Hon. B. Mpundu to leave the House and debate from outside. Was that on a lighter note?

I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I said that if he wanted to debate, he could go and do so outside. So, I was not specific, and he has now reformed. He is very quiet.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, I exercise my discretion to not send him out.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi) Madam Speaker, hearty congratulations on your deserved win. As Zambians, we are happy for you.

Mr Chala: And as females.

Ms Nyirenda: As females, we are so happy for you.

Madam Speaker, if I had the power, I would have directed that we observe a minute of silence for every woman who lost a life whilst giving birth.

Madam Speaker, one of the reasons women die whilst giving birth, as the hon. Minister stated, is haemorrhage, as they lose a lot of blood. However, all the constituencies have contributed for ambulances. It is a challenge for women from far-flung areas to reach hospitals and, by the time they reach the hospital, they are half-dead, and it is difficult for hospital authorities to save their lives. What is holding the distribution of the ambulances, especially given that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development provided for that?

Madam Speaker: The acting hon. Minister of Health, are you able to tackle this question?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Lundazi should raise that matter with my colleague, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I understand the need for ambulances but, in some areas such as where we live, there are no tarred roads. There are only roads that are sandy in nature. Does the Government intend to deploy midwives to rural places like Lukona, which is 60 km from the Boma, to prevent expectant mothers from covering long distances? When an ambulance is sent to Lukona, it takes six hours to cover 120 km.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, fortunately, I know the hon. Member’s constituency because that is where the primary school I went to is.

Madam Speaker, if you go back in history, there was adequate staff at Lukona Mission, which the hon. Member mentioned, when the missionaries were there, and they were capable of handling things. Furthermore, in Sihole, where the primary school I went to is, there was a health facility with health staff who attended to some of these issues. Some of the capacities fell by the wayside as the country developed.

Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Government wants us to go back to how things used to be in terms of the provision of health services and education, for which my colleague, the hon. Minister of Education, is responsible. That is why the country has spent a lot of money to recruit health staff like doctors, nurses and clinical officers. The President has made it very clear that all health facilities must have maternal facilities so that we reduce the mortality rate of expectant mothers when giving birth. So, as we develop this, it is necessary that, as hon. Members of Parliament, we engage the health authorities in our constituencies and speak for the constituents so that they are among the staff recruited and that they get their fair share of employment opportunities.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is right in stating that many constituencies in the Western Province are very sandy and that roads do not exist there. So, if we are to serve people, it is necessary to provide the services where the people live rather than people taking hours to reach health facilities. The maternal mortality ratio, at the moment, is 252 deaths per 100,000 live births and our target is seventy per 100,000 live births. Bringing the figure 252 deaths down to seventy will take a lot of effort. There are several other statistics, but suffice it for me to say that we recognise the importance of the question asked by the hon. Member. As a ministry, we will continue to work hard to ensure that the ratio is brought to an acceptable level.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, let me join other hon. Members in congratulating you. We thank you and are proud of you.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that one of the causes of maternal death is post-partum haemorrhage, which is, sometimes, difficult to avoid. When a woman delivers well, we say ‘mwapusukeni’, meaning that it is matter of life and death; you do not know whether the woman will survive or die. I am happy that the Government has directed that there be maternity wings in health centres. Since we know that the common cause of maternal death is bleeding, does the Government have any plans of ensuring that there are blood banks in maternity wings so that there is blood transfusion in cases in which women bleed heavily to avoid loss of life?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Government recognises that the process followed in this House, which is an arm of the Government, is two-way. Questions are answered and very useful suggestions made are picked. That information on ensuring that there are a number of blood banks to save women from dying because of loss of blood will be passed on to the ministry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, one of the reasons for maternal death that the hon. Minister gave is abortion, if I am not mistaken. There is a lot of unsafe abortion in the country, yet the Termination of Pregnancy Act, Cap. 304 of the Constitution provides that no one should terminate the life of an unborn child unless one follows the conditions in the Act, which is the principal Act. What is the Government doing to ensure that those involved in illegal abortion are brought to book?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the Member for Chilubi, Hon. Fube. The question that he has asked touches on illegalities.

Madam Speaker, the law is in place and its application is dependent upon law enforcement officers. All we can do is remind them that in order to save life, there is a need to apply the law that the hon. Member referred to.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I join the rest of hon. Members in this House in congratulating you on winning the Commonwealth award. May that good omen be contagious to your hon. Members here so that they can get more awards on the international scene.

Madam Speaker, I empathise with the hon. Member for Kalabo Central. I feel the same way. Seeing our mothers and children die in maternity wings is heart breaking.

Madam Speaker, I followed the hon. Minister’s response on the measures that the Government is putting in place to stop maternal deaths, and he was categorical on the medical and psychological measures, but I am thinking about the emotional measures. What is the Government’s position on emotional support in terms of husbands or the owners of the pregnancy being present …

Laughter

Mr Sampa: … in the delivery ward? I know, in the Western world, like in America, that is a requirement. Two of my children were born there, and I was required to be present when they were being born. It is a priceless feeling, and I offered emotional support to both the mother and the children. Here, you have to beg to be in the delivery ward. The health personnel actually chase you from the delivery ward. What is the Government’s position on husbands who want to be present during child delivery?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Matero has raised an important question on emotional support. However, I do not think that it is right that we pronounce one way or the other. Suffice it for me to say that there are cultural considerations. In the Western world, it is considered normal for a husband to be there during childbirth to see what goes on, and that gives comfort to the expectant mother. If you superimpose that on African culture, you will see that it is not in every case that that would provide comfort. In certain cases, it might even be …

Hon. Member: Traumatising.

Eng. Milupi: … traumatising. I thank you for that word. I think, all of us can relate to this. That is why in our culture, childbirth, before the coming of Western medicine, was handled by women who adequately prepared for it in secluded places. There is also a need to ensure that respect is given. However, when our society evolves, becomes more Western, that is the time some practices will be encouraged. As of now, no one stops a husband from being present when the wife is giving birth. It is doubtful whether a boyfriend would be allowed but, if a husband chooses to be there, nobody would stop him. So, it is a personal choice.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

REHABILITATION OF OLD LUNDAZI HOSPITAL

86. Ms Nyirenda asked the Minister of Health:

whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate Old Lundazi Hospital in Lundazi District, which is in a deplorable state;

if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

if there are no such plans, why.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to rehabilitate Old Lundazi Hospital. The priority of the Government, at the moment, is to fully operationalise the new Lundazi District Hospital.

As stated, Madam Speaker, the Government does not have immediate plans to rehabilitate Old Lundazi Hospital. Therefore, part (b) of the question falls off.

Madam Speaker, the Government constructed a new district hospital owing to the deplorable state of Old Lundazi District Hospital. Therefore, as I mentioned earlier, the priority is to fully operationalise the new hospital. This entails providing the human resource for health required, additional equipment, beds, mattresses and other essential commodities in order to provide quality health services.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, the people of Lundazi are very sad to hear that the Government has no intention to work on Old Lundazi Hospital. The hon. Minister and I visited the new district hospital and saw how crowded it is. Does the hon. Minister think it wise to close a hospital that is closer to the people, who now have to walk 8 km to receive health services?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for recognising that we took time to visit the health facility. So, I answer on a subject that is fresh in my mind. Let me give a bit of information.

Madam Speaker, the catchment area for Lundazi is 154,908 km and a headcount of 186,372. Within the district, there are eighteen health facilities, that is, eleven health posts, four health centres, one hospital and two private clinics. The operations of Old Lundazi Hospital, which was recognised as being in a deplorable state, were migrated to New Lundazi Hospital, which is a Level-1 hospital in Lundazi District.

Madam Speaker, there are old buildings at Old Lundazi Hospital, which were erected in the 1940s. At the moment, the hospital only offers outpatient department (OPD) and maternal services, and it is about 1 km from the central business district (CBD) while the new district hospital is about 6 km from the CBD. Due to its proximity, the old hospital is still popular among residents, and this is what is creating issues. The recommendation of the local authority during a meeting in 2022 arranged by the office of the District Commissioner (DC) and attended by the Provincial Minister, the Permanent Secretary (PS) for Eastern Province, among other officials, was to turn the new hospital into a general hospital for the people of Chama, Chasefu, Lundazi and Lumezi, while the old hospital would be renovated and equipped with human resource to operate as Lundazi District Hospital. The discussions, led by the local authority, are ongoing, and the ministry is yet to receive communication.

Madam Speaker, let me make it very clear that the new hospital is, of course, modern and operational. I think, last week or two weeks ago, we were answering questions on the hospital. We have had issues with the mortuary, but I am reliably informed that as of August, 2023, a new mortuary with a capacity of six bodies was commissioned at the new hospital. The old hospital also has a mortuary with a capacity of six bodies, but the mortuary is non-operational. We will make sure that the old hospital is repaired to increase the mortuary space in Lundazi to twelve bodies. I must say that historically, there has not been more than four bodies in the mortuary at a time. So, that is adequate capacity.

Madam Speaker, the answer that I gave was on what needs to be done immediately, and I stated that the Government is concentrating on ensuring that the new hospital is operational. In the future, the old hospital will cater for the people of Lundazi while the new one will cater for those in other districts near Lundazi.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I have been following the hon. Minister’s responses closely. The principal question is on whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate Old Lundazi Hospital, not immediate plans.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was asking a supplementary question on the question posed by the hon. Member for Lundazi.

Madam Speaker, I followed the hon. Minister’s responses, but let me refresh the hon. Minister’s mind. The idea behind putting up the new hospital was to have an additional facility that would cater for people in districts other than Lundazi. Therefore, the need for that hospital as a resolution of the stakeholders who met still stands. What plans does the Government have with regard to having both the new and old facilities operational? Is the hon. Minister implying that the old facility will be discarded, since the Government has no plans to rehabilitate it and is focusing on the new one?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu for this question.

Madam Speaker, the answer is far from what the hon. Member has said. Let me remind the House what I said, and that will put in perspective the Government’s plans.

Madam Speaker, the question was: Does the Government have any plans to rehabilitate Old Lundazi Hospital? We have often stated that we are a methodical Government. The recommendation of the local authority during a meeting in 2022 arranged by the DC’s Office, which was attended by the Provincial Minister, the PS for Eastern Province, the District Health Director (DHD ), the DC and officials from the local Government, was to turn the new hospital, which is 6 km from the CBD, into a general hospital that will cover Chama, Chasefu, Lundazi and Lumezi whilst the old hospital is renovated and equipped with human resources to operate as Lundazi District Hospital. I gave this information in my answer. Suffice it for me to say that we know that there are discussions at the local level. Our policy is to decentralise decision-making, and we respect that policy. The discussions are still ongoing, and they are led by the local authority. The Government, through the Ministry of Health, is yet to receive communication on that.

Madam Speaker, I think, it is a good idea to rehabilitate the old hospital because the population is growing. At the moment, the new hospital caters for a population of about 186,372, as I stated earlier. When the plans are finalised, in other words, after the local authority presents its findings to the Ministry of Health and the new hospital is turned into a general hospital, we will turn the old hospital in Lundazi District into a district hospital. Having been there, I know that would be a popular move, as the old facility would cater for the local population. Most hon. Ministers who have been there have talked about the need for the hospital to continue its operations. However, everything has to be done in a methodical manner. The local authority is already discussing the matter. We will wait for its resolution to reach the ministry and, if it will be in the affirmative, it will be right and proper to turn the hospital into a general hospital. The area from Lumezi through Chama to Chasefu is big. So, nobody is saying that we are going to shut down that facility, but things need to be done in a logical manner. In the end, I think, everyone will be happy.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, some answers really leave you wondering.

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Laughter

Ms Nyirenda: You can say “Question!” because none of your hospitals have been closed.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Just go straight to the question. Do not mind the people debating while seated.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance. It is painful. People walk 6 km to the new hospital, leaving the hospital in their area, which is quite disheartening.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that the Government intends to repair the mortuary at the old hospital. I desire not for my people to think that the Government cares for the dead more than the living. So, I want the hon. Minister’s commitment. When is the Government going to take beds to the hospital so that those who are living access the facility that is near them?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, let me make it very clear that the hospital was not closed by the New Dawn Administration, but by the previous Administration. Those are some of the things that we found and have to correct. Now, the way we are going to correct that is ensuring that we have use of the new hospital, and that will mean upgrading it to a general hospital so it can cover the districts that I have enumerated. At that stage, to correct what our predecessors did, the hospital will be properly renovated and fitted with equipment so that it can operate as a district hospital because it is very close to the CBD. That is the aim. I think, when that is done, not only the people of Lundazi, but of other districts will be attended to. Our people in Lundazi will be going to the renovated district hospital. However, everything has to follow a logical process. The logical process that we have embarked on is to allow the local administration to come up with the recommendations that we, as the Central Government, will follow.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The last question will be from the hon. Member for Chama South.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, the problem in Lundazi concerns planning. The new hospital, as the hon. Member mentioned, is 8 km away from the people. So, I would have loved it if the Government were to reverse things and put up a double-storey hospital, as the space is small. No wonder, in developed countries, hospitals are high-rise buildings. I think, that is what we should have done. Nevertheless, since the hon. Minister indicated that New Lundazi Hospital, as a referral hospital, is supposed to cover Chama, Lumezi and Lundazi, does the Government have any plans to modernise the old one? Clearly, the hospital is in the central business district (CBD) of Lundazi and is the most preferred because of the population. If we were to shift everything to the new hospital, it would be very expensive for people to access health services, and it already is. Does the Government have any plans to modernise the old hospital so that it can have everything the people of Lundazi and surrounding areas need?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the new hospital is on the southern side of Lundazi towards Lumezi. Some people say that the hospital is 6 km away from the people while others say that it is 8 km away. In a rural area, that is a long distance. It was not the New Dawn Administration that placed the hospital at that location. We found it placed there by the Government that was there before us. However, we take responsibility. We campaigned on the basis that we were going to correct the wrong things, and this is one of those things. However, the process is that we have to allow the local people to participate in decision-making, and that is why a meeting was called. From how I see it, those involved in decision-making may conclude that the hospital be renovated and turned into a district hospital for the people of Lundazi. The decision to renovate the hospital to ensure that it properly fits the status of a district hospital will then be made. How soon that will be done will depend on how quickly the local people attending to this matter submit their recommendation to the Government, which we are waiting for.

Madam Speaker, the question as to whether the New Dawn Government cares more about the dead than the living is unnecessary. Mortuaries are also an important aspect of looking after our population, especially when they are in distressed circumstances; when they lose relatives. When mortuaries in hospitals do not work, that creates chaos for the community. So, I think, both mortuaries and hospitals are important health facilities for our population.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF A LEVEL-1 HOSPITAL IN KANCHIBIYA

87. Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Health:

whether the Government has any plans to construct a Level-I hospital with a mortuary in Kanchibiya district;
if so, when the plans will be implemented;
what the total estimated cost is, and;
if there are no such plans, why.

Eng. Milupi on behalf of Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct Level-1 hospitals in all districts that do not have them, including Kanchibiya District. However, due to the limited fiscal space, the construction is being implemented in a phased approach. It intends to continue constructing new district hospitals after completing the thirty-six district hospitals under construction countrywide, which are expected to be completed by 2024. The number of district hospitals to be constructed in 2025 will depend on the funds that will be provided for this purpose.

Madam Speaker, the estimated cost of constructing the Level-I hospital will be known when the successful bidders have been awarded the contract.

Madam Speaker, as stated earlier, the Government has plans to construct district hospitals in districts where there are none. Therefore, part (d) of the question falls off.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his response.

Madam Speaker, I asked a constituency-specific question. However, I am mindful that the hon. Minister has expanded his response to other newly created districts whose parameters on the ground may be different from those of Kanchibiya. With your indulgence, allow me to state that the number of women of childbearing age and expected pregnancies stands at 27,079 in Kanchibiya and 6,647 in other districts. That number constitutes of a special population who require a quick and adequate health service delivery package. The closest first-level hospital from Kanchibiya is Michael Chilufya Sata in Mpika District, which is 135 km away from Kanchibiya. So, the referrals put a lot of pressure on the District Health Office, as it has to rush critical cases 135 km away, sometimes at night, and some areas are impassable. There are 488 roads in the district, which we are working on. What sense of urgency is attached to the people of Kanchibiya, especially given that they walk long distances to hospitals when they fall ill?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I fully understand the concern raised by the hon. Member, who represents Kanchibiya Constituency in Kanchibiya District.

Madam Speaker, in my answer, everything was put into perspective as to what is happening. Currently, the Government is constructing thirty district hospitals, but with respect to Muchinga Province, where Kanchibiya is and where there are eight districts, there are no Level-1 hospitals in three districts, that is, Kanchibiya, Lavushimanda and Shiwang’andu. So, we understand that, but there is a process that has to be followed. The Government is constructing thirty district hospitals, and it will construct more. I urge the hon. Member to engage with the ministry to ensure that the distance to Michael Chilufya Sata General Hospital, which he mentioned, is on record so that Kanchibiya can be considered.

Madam Speaker, the number of health facilities in Kanchibiya is as follows:

four mini-hospitals;

seven rural health centres;

and sixteen health posts, making a total of twenty-seven.

Further, the Ministry of Health funded the construction of Nchubula Health Post to be completed under the 2023 Infrastructure Operational Plan. The health posts being constructed using the 2023 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) allocation with the help of the hon. Member are Mulima, Lumbatwa and Kate Island. A maternity annex is being constructed at Chikakala Rural Health Centre using the CDF, again, with the help of the hon. Member, and it will have 11/27 maternity wings, 7/27 mothers’ shelters, 4/27 running water and 8/27 national grid connections. All that is in Kanchibiya. Also, facilities connected to solar power are 17/27.

Madam, Speaker, I understand the hon. Member’s concern that in spite of all that, what is needed, because of the vast distances associated with Kanchibiya, is a district hospital. As of now, we are constructing thirty district hospitals across the country but, in Muchinga Province, there are three districts that are not covered. The hon. Member can engage the ministry so that some districts can be considered in the next phase, as this is a continuous process meant to ensure that there are Level-1 hospitals in all districts.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I should have conveyed my condolences to the substantive hon. Minister on the loss of her brother. I think, I will engage her when she is back at the office.

CONSTRUCTION OF TEACHERS’ HOUSES, CLASSROOM BLOCKS AND SCIENCE LABORATORY AT UMODZI SENIOR SECONDARY SCHOOL

88. Ms Phiri (Milanzi) asked the Minister of Education:

whether the Government has any plans to construct the following infrastructure at the newly upgraded Umodzi Senior Secondary School in Milanzi Parliamentary Constituency:

teachers’ houses;

additional classroom blocks; and

a science laboratory; and

if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government has plans to construct teachers’ houses, additional classroom blocks and a science laboratory at the newly upgraded Umodzi Senior Secondary School in Milanzi Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the projects will be implemented under the 2024-2026 Medium-Term Budget Plan.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Phiri: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the response.

Madam Speaker, it is important for hon. Members of Parliament to be given the plans so that they stop asking questions on the Government’s plans. Where can we find the plans?

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, if we give hon. Members plans, they will stop asking questions. However, they should continue asking questions. It is a mammoth task to give hon. Members plans for this year or that year. However, as I said, plans are there. I am sure, the hon. Member is happy.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, let me stretch the question asked by the hon. Member for Milanzi further.

Madam Speaker, is there an infrastructure development plan for schools and teachers’ houses at the ministry? If so, would the hon. Minister mind sharing it with hon. Members, as my fellow hon. Member said, so that we know. Questions on whether the Government has plans are becoming tedious. So, is there an integrated infrastructure development plan at the ministry so that we know, for example, that in 2042, the ministry will construct a school in Bangweulu Constituency or Milanzi Constituency?

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member wants a plan for up to 2042. We will still be there and the plan will come.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mubika: We will be there.

Laughter

Mr Kasandwe: Is that the response?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu will be followed by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the reason we pose questions to our colleagues in the Executive is to get responses on behalf of the people we represent. Therefore, it is important that we get responses that are thorough and clear. The questions that were posed to the hon. Minister were on where one can get the plans and whether it is possible for him to share with the hon. Members, both on your right and left, some of the plans so that they can stop posing, more or less, the same questions. The hon. Minister should be as thorough as he can, not the way he shortens his responses like a catapult.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Thank you. We have got the question.

Hon. Minister of Education, this is the third time the same question is being asked. May you explain a bit more.

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, there is infrastructure whose construction is pending, making it difficult for me to make a projection. The construction of some infrastructure started fifteen years ago. So, how can I project to 2042, yet we have not finished other projects? The hon. Member knows what I am talking about. The construction of some infrastructure started fifteen, ten or twelve years ago. So, my colleagues should wait, first of all, we deal with on-going projects, rather than project for 2042. How can I project for 2042 when the Government has not finished the projects that our colleagues begun? It is simple. That is where the logic is. I know that a lot of infrastructure was abandoned, and that is what we are trying to complete. Had it not been for the fluctuations, we would have completed them. When we complete all of them, we will embark on the construction of greenfield infrastructure. That is what we will do. That is what logic entails. When hon. Members ask whether the Government has plans to implement a project, they put us on the spot. Sometimes, I respond that there are no immediate plans. When there are such plans, I tell hon. Members that they are there.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary question on the question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Milanzi.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister able to confirm that there is funding for the projected implementation? In his answer, he indicated that the project will be implemented under the 2024-2025 Medium-Term Budget Plan. Is he certain that the funds are available for that activity?

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, this is why I referred to the 2024-2026 Medium-Term Budget Plan.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

_______

MOTION

BUDGET 2024

(Debate resumed)

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this self-praise Budget.

Madam Speaker, the Budget does not reflect the reality on the ground.

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, Zambians out there are suffering. The cost of living is very high and the people of Nakonde expected the hon. Minister, when coming up with the Budget, to provide solutions to Zambians. What did we see? We saw a self-praise Budget. Today, people are buying mealie meal at K350 while those in Chililabombwe are buying it on slow-pay.

Madam Speaker, the United Party for National Development (UPND) has two slogans. The first slogan is ‘Bally will fix it’, and the second one is ‘Zambia Forward’. Today, the slogan ‘Zambia Forward’ has diminished on the lips of Zambians because of the suffering.

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, Zambians have now developed another slogan, which was launched in the presence of the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation in Kalikiliki. The slogan is ‘njala’.

Madam Speaker, –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Hon. Members, can you, please, take into consideration the content of the Budget Speech because the issues the hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde is raising are the same ones he raised when he was contributing to the debate on the President’s Speech. Please, let us be fair to our people in the constituencies by talking about the many issues in the Budget Speech that was presented to the House. We may limit ourselves to the issue of hunger, but our people are waiting to hear about other issues. So, mention those issues on the Floor of the House. The people are waiting to hear from you. Let us not dwell on the same issues.

Hon. Member for Nakonde, you talked about the issues you are raising when contributing to the debate on the President’s Speech. So, may you take into consideration the Budget Speech.

You may continue.

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, Zambians were hoping that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning would introduce subsidises on fuel and foodstuffs because they are suffering. Since you have guided, let me refer to the Budget Speech.

Madam Speaker, in paragraph 4, page 1, of the Budget Speech, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning says the following:

“Madam, on the economic front, Zambia’s external debt is now under control following the debt restructuring agreement reached earlier this year. The rate of increase in prices of consumer goods or inflation, which we found at 24 per cent, has reduced to 12 per cent. And, notwithstanding periods of instability, the exchange rate of the Kwacha is relatively more stable now than before. Of particular significance is that the strategic equity partner for Konkola Copper Mines has now been selected while that for Mopani Copper Mines is imminent. Once this process is concluded, the Copperbelt Province, and indeed the country at large, will soon come back to life.”

Madam Speaker, I think, the one who prepared the Budget Speech should be arrested. This is fooling the people of Zambia. What was the exchange rate when the Patriotic Front (PF) Government lost power?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

The phrase “fooling the people of Zambia” is unparliamentary. Can you find a better one.

Laughter

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, I am sure, the one who wrote the Budget Speech is an enemy of the people of Zambia. Why am I saying so? On 24^th August, 2021, when Zambians and the UPND booed the Former President, the Kwacha was trading at K16 to a Dollar. How can somebody say that the exchange rate is now stable, yet Zambians are suffering? I concur with the hon. Member for Mpika that the Budget was prepared by foreigners who do not live in Zambia because if they lived in Zambia, they would have known that the Kwacha, in 2021, was trading at K16.70 per Dollar.

Madam Speaker, coming to external debt, sometimes, I wonder what debt restructuring is. Debt restructuring is an agreement that we defer the repayment. Can you start celebrating and lining up headmasters because there is a debt restructuring agreement? Our colleagues promised Zambians that they would dismantle the debt, not restructure it. How can our colleagues start celebrating debt restructuring when they have accrued a lot of debt?

Madam Speaker, on page 2 of the Annual Borrowing Plan, under domestic debt, this Government will borrow about K83.2 billion. How much is that in Dollars? The people of Nakonde are going to petition the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accounts (ZICA) and the Economics Association of Zambia (EAZ) for not telling the truth that this Government is going to borrow about K83.2 billion. Why do I say so? On domestic debt, this Government is projected to borrow K83.2 billion. From that amount, the Government will use K16.3 billion to finance the Budget and the balance to refinance the maturities falling due during the course of the year. That means that the Government is not sincere. Why is it not telling Zambians that it is going to borrow that much, yet it indicated that it would only borrow about K16.3 billion, which is very wrong?

Madam Speaker, what are the effects of domestic borrowing? Domestic borrowing involves borrowing from the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), banks, insurance –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Hon. Opposition Members: Mupeleniko five minutes!

Laughter

Mr Simumba: Ah! Yapwa?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Your time is up, hon. Member.

Let us plan our debates well so that we debate within the time allocated to us.

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the chance, on behalf of the people of Mufumbwe, to add my voice to the debate on this wonderful speech.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member for Mufumbwe, you may continue.

Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to send a message of condolences to our dear sister, Hon. Masebo, on the passing on of her brother. We are sorry for that, and ask God to give her strength.

Secondly, I would like to congratulate, Madam Speaker on the award she received. This is worthnoting and, as Zambians, we should learn to appreciate our people when they do a good thing.

Madam Speaker, today, I did not want to be political in my debate. However, sometimes, we are forced to answer. I have been a Member of Parliament for more than seven years now, and we have seen many Budgets been presented. The previous Government made many assurances to the people of Zambia, but three-quarters of them were not honoured. However, this time around, the people of Mufumbwe are very happy with the Budget and the fact that since the President took over power, they have seen development in Mufumbwe.

Madam Speaker, I want to confirm that in the years I have been a Member of Parliament, I have not seen what is happening in Mufumbwe now. We will not sit here and agree with people who do not want to appreciate the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). That is not fair. Some people were telling us that losing an election is very painful. Yes, it was very painful, but we managed to endure for so many years. They should also try to endure the same way we did.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Kamondo: Twali ngaimwe, naimwe mukaba ngainfwe. We were like our colleagues, but today, we are here and also –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mufumbwe!

Please, do not throw away the Budget Speech. Make use of it as you debate.

Mr Kamondo: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I concur with you.

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the budget for the Ministry of Agriculture. We agree that the prices of maize and mealie meal have gone up. However, the people of Mufumbwe are actually very happy that the price of maize has been increased.

Interruptions

Mr Kamondo: You know very well that in Mufumbwe, we produce maize. How can we be happy producing maize for people who are lazy and do not want to grow maize? The people of Mufumbwe think that the price of maize is okay. However, the Ministry of Agriculture should actualise all the measures that it has put in place so that the price of mealie meal goes down, and we believe that will happen. Zambians should start having gardens, even a 1 lima, so that they can also complement the Government’s efforts.

Madam Speaker, we need more fertiliser, and I agree with that. In view of the price of maize going up, more than 28,000 farmers in Mufumbwe want to grow maize, but only 6,500 are going to benefit from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). That will be a very big problem. However, the measures that the Government has put in place to enable farmers to get farming inputs are good, and we appreciate them. I am sure, even our colleagues will appreciate them because if we increase production of maize, the price of mealie meal will reduce. This year, we do not want our people to be sent back when they go to buy maize. One of the measures the Government has put in place is that the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) will sell maize so that our people can buy it and have mealie meal. That is commendable. The credit window that has been provided should be maintained, and that is what is going to help the people of Mufumbwe.

Madam Speaker, the people of Mufumbwe are very happy that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development will undertake exploration, and this is a matter of urgency. We cannot allow a situation in which we have many minerals and people just discover them or we live in houses where we do not even know what we have. We know that only 52 per cent of our country has been mapped, in terms of minerals. I think, that does not create a good picture. The exploration should be done immediately, and the monies allocated for the exercise will enable the Government explore Mufumbwe, especially Kalengwa Mine, so we can discover new minerals.

Madam Speaker, I also want to talk about the CDF, which is, indeed, a game-changer. When we were campaigning, the President told us that we would no longer fund projects. Indeed, this has come to fruition. We no longer fund projects. In Mufumbwe, we have managed to purchase a tipper, a grader and other equipment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo: What does that mean? It means that we can now work on the feeder roads in Mufumbwe instead of asking the Government to do that. What else have we done in Mufumbwe? We did not have schools but, now, we have built more than ten 1 x 3 classroom blocks. Since Mufumbwe is very vast and children were not going to school, this is what we wanted. One of my brothers said that Bally is fixing it. Yes, indeed, he is fixing it. In Mufumbwe, we appreciate Bally because, now, we have schools.

Madam Speaker, let me talk about rural connectivity. We have been told that rural areas will be given more money. So, we would like to see the road from Samujimu to Mushima completed. We are also happy that the Government will complete the boarding secondary schools that were abandoned, I do not know by whom, but the ones who abandoned them know themselves. This time around, we want Mufumbwe Secondary School to be completed. There is a hospital that looks like a clinic, and it is in this Budget –

Mr Mwene crossed the Floor.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

The hon. Member who came to the front row, you passed in between the person debating and me.

Hon. Opposition Members: Send him out!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, this Government, the New Dawn Administration, means well. I do not know why someone can trivialise the Budget. As hon. Members, we need to be strong. Let us give credit where it is due. Let us not just say that the Budget is empty. That is not right. Our colleagues are bragging that the CDF is a game-changer. Let us continue appreciating the Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I will be alternating. I will be picking from the left and then the right side.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, indeed, we need to adjust our timings. Reflecting on a Budget that was presented for more than three hours in eight minutes is a daunting task.

Madam Speaker, the third Budget, which we are debating today, presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, must relate to the other two that he presented. I recall that when we were in the last quarter of 2021, every time we asked questions about development issues, we would be told to wait for the New Dawn Budget, which would address everything. When the hon. Minister came to this august House, he was very ambitious and presented a Budget whose theme is “Growth, Jobs and Taking Development Closer to the People.” The 2021 Budget was about K120 billion and the 2024 Budget is about K173 billion, representing a 31.7 per cent gross domestic product (GDP) growth. So, the increment was about K50 billion.

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister was talking about jobs, he said the following:

“The numbers that I am about to present clearly show that the domestic revenues we shall collect are not even enough to service debt and pay public sector salaries.”

Madam Speaker, what that simply means is that if we broke down the Budget that the hon. Minister presented into recurrent and capital expenditure, you would see that a huge chunk of it went to recurrent expenditure and personal emoluments. When reality dawned, the hon. Minister came with this year’s Budget, which reduced significantly that jump of K50 billion to K67.3 billion, less K6 billion from the figures he presented in 2022. If we asked the hon. Minister to give a complete analysis of what we have achieved in both fiscal years, you would realise the reason he came up with a borrowing plan. It is because there is no fiscal space for any capital expenditure in both the 2022 Budget and the 2023 Budget, which we are currently discussing.

Madam Speaker, I was happy that Her Honour the Vice-President acknowledged the challenges we have faced with regard to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which was referred to as the panacea for the development of rural constituencies. Her Honour the Vice-President acknowledged the challenges that the Government has faced in disbursing the funds. I stood here in 2022 and forewarned my hon. Colleagues that the CDF was not a panacea for development and about the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy. We could have avoided all these challenges we are going through.

Madam Speaker, this year, the hon. Minister has come back to this august House with the sum of K177,891,868,893 for us to approve. Again, when you break that down, you will realise why he has come with the borrowing plan; he knows that there is no money in the Budget for any significant capital project.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: I am talking about figures; I am not making lamentations here.

Madam Speaker, all I am trying to say is that the hon. Minister should unlock the potential. Last year’s Budget Address’ theme was about stimulating growth. Now, we are unlocking what has already been stimulated. I do not know how we can do the two activities interchangeably. Now, if the hon. Minister does not unlock the potential of the local players in the economy, potential will not be unlocked. The local players are those who supplied goods and services to the Government and contractors who have already been audited. Those who audited them have already been paid, but some people, such as food suppliers, are still owed money and the money does not have the same value anymore.

Mr Mposha interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, hon. Ministers should know their limits. What I am trying to say is that if the hon. Minister does not unlock the potential of the local players in the economy, we will continue going around in circles. Instead of taxing where it matters the most, he wants to tax mobile money transactions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: When I send K1,000 to my mother to buy fertiliser, that is what he wants to tax. What is he unlocking? In the meantime, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development was telling us about how rich we are. We can see millions and millions of Dollars flown into the international airport to procure gold. When we were in the Government, we made sure that the gold that was recovered –

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Kampyongo: We made the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) the last and first buyer of gold. That was a deliberate move to ensure that that natural resource boosts the economy. If that resource is harnessed, the Government will not need to tax mobile money transactions. How do you allow transactions of metals to be taking place at the airport? Millions of Dollars in an aeroplane –

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Please, can you relate that to the Budget. Now, you have taken us to the airport.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I am talking about revenue mobilisation domestically. There is a linkage of what I am saying to why we are not mobilising enough domestic revenue to service what we need to service. The highest expenditure we have is public expenditure. It is even worse now that there are 200 civil servants at the level of Director heaped at Cabinet Office, getting salaries but not doing anything. Meanwhile, other people are getting monies for the same positions. I think, there are more than twenty Permanent Secretaries (PS). Anyone who becomes irrelevant is removed from the ministry and taken to Cabinet Office. That is bloating public expenditure. I do not know how many special duties we are going to have.

Madam Speaker, at the end of the day, if we do not unlock the potential in agriculture, and implement sustainable policies that are predictable, we are not going to achieve food security.

Madam Speaker, we have lamented the Energy Regulation Board’s (ERB’s) revision of the price of fuel every month. It had to take the President to respond to us when we have been discussing this issue. You cannot sustain an economy by reviewing the price of fuel every month when you are bringing in a finished product. So, the hon. Minister should do the right thing, and we, the consumers, need to have capital expenditure budgets rather than consumption ones.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sialubalo (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to say one or two words on the speech delivered by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in this august House.

Madam Speaker, my debate is not confrontational, and I will talk about what the hon. Minister was trying to address.

Madam Speaker, the theme of the Budget Address is “Unlocking Economic Potential”. You can only unlock that which is locked. I repeat: you can only unlock that which is locked, meaning that the hon. Minister is looking at how the New Dawn Administration has fared from the time it formed Government.

Madam Speaker, the current Government found a huge debt, and the hon. Minister and the President of the Republic of Zambia admitted that, indeed, Zambia was highly indebted. So, they had to restructure the debt, which they successfully did. In unlocking the locked, it must be acknowledged that Zambians have suffered. That is real, and the New Dawn Administration does not hide that fact. The President admitted that the price of mealie meal is high, but the Government has to unlock the locked. So far, under the New Dawn Administration, there has been continuity in trying to resolve the problems that the Zambians have. Economic problems have been resolved in a systematic manner. For example, farmers used to buy fertiliser at K1,200 but, now, because of unlocking the locked, they are buying it at below K800. It is K650.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

The voices are becoming louder and louder. Can you, please, lower your voices so that you can get the debate by the hon. Member for Sinazongwe.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Sialubalo: Madam Speaker, a 50 kg bag of fertiliser used to cost K1,200, but it now costs K650.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Sialubalo: That is unlocking the locked. That is what the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was trying to say. We have many challenges. The past twelve years, and the past two years the New Dawn Government has been in power, the Batoka/Mamba Road has not been attended to. There was no hope whatsoever under the previous regime. However, we saw an advertisement in which consultancy services are being requested. That is a plus for the people of Sinazongwe. The road is an economic one, as over 150 trucks use it every day when transporting coal. That is unlocking the locked.

Madam Speaker, as for the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), in the last ten years under our colleagues’ rule, I got K3.1 million. However, under the New Dawn Administration, in the first year, I got K25.7 million.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sialubalo: That is unlocking the locked. Something that was a great challenge to our colleagues was unlocked. In the first year of the New Dawn Administration’s reign, we managed to implement twenty-seven projects in Sinazongwe, something that had not happened previously. That is unlocking the locked. We intend to procure earth-moving equipment, something that was unheard of under our colleagues’ rule. That is unlocking the locked. We are moving forward. We intend to engage the Government so that the Bottom Road is also worked on. That is unlocking the locked.

Madam Speaker, under the leadership of our colleagues, the country was debt-ridden. It took visionary leadership to see to it that every challenge was addressed. Yes, the price of mealie meal is very high but, very soon, the locked will be unlocked. In Sinazongwe, we are not complaining of the price of mealie meal being high even if we did not harvest much because of the flash floods. We are hardworkers. What we produce is first for our consumption then the rest we sell. So, we need to inculcate such values in the peasant farmers. You do not sell maize when it is still fresh. You reserve some for your family then sell the rest. That is unlocking the locked. We need to understand that we are on a journey. Where we are coming from was hard, but where we are heading to, there is light at the end of a short tunnel, not long tunnel, because of the leadership of His Excellency President Hakainde Hichilema.

Madam Speaker, there are many areas that need to be unlocked. In Sinazongwe, there are about six coal mines. All we need to do is look at how best we can partner with certain companies so that we revamp many areas through public private partnerships (PPP).

Madam Speaker, in Sinazongwe, there are four irrigation schemes that were abandoned by our colleagues. There is no single project that one can point at that was implemented under the previous Government’s leadership. Under the New Dawn Administration, things are moving and, believe me, in the next forty years, Sinazongwe will be a better place to live in than any other part of the country.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Sialubalo: Madam Speaker, we are unlocking the locked. We do not run away from shortcomings. Shortcomings are there, but all we need is the zeal and determination to have them resolved. What we are doing is unlocking the locked. Everyone is saying that the price of mealie meal is high, and we understand that. Some people from urban areas do not farm because of their geographical locations but, out there, there are some villages. So, let us use our land for production. We should take advantage of our location. The neighbouring countries depend on Zambia for mealie meal. So, our farmers should take that as a business opportunity and grow more maize. What the Ministry of Agriculture needs to do is give them the incentives it is offering. Apart from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), there are soft loans that our farmers can get to enable them to grow more crops or maize for consumption and for sale.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me, first of all, to place on record my profound thanks, on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa Constituency, for the opportunity to make a few, but very important comments on the proposed 2024 National Budget.

Madam Speaker, I will start with the theme. This is the third Budget presented by the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government. In 2021, the theme of the Budget Speech presented by Hon. Dr Musokotwane in Parliament was centred on economic growth. In 2022, another Budget Speech was read out, and its theme was stimulating the economy. So, from economic growth to stimulating the economy. This year, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is telling the people of Zambia that, with the proposed Budget, he is going to unlock the economy.

Madam Speaker, what should come first? It is very important that we have this conversation so that the listeners can follow the conversation. What should come first? Do you first grow the economy or do you first unlock it?

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Mr Kang’ombe: The theme for this year should have been the theme in 2021.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kang’ombe: The theme for the first Budget Speech should have been unlocking the economy while that for the second one should have been stimulating the economy. The theme for the third one, which is this year’s Budget, should be about growing the economy. Clearly, we have a problem with the theme, and I want to advise my colleagues in the Government that it is always important to acknowledge what they must do first. The people of Kamfinsa are saying that the theme for this year’s Budget is misplaced.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kang’ombe: I am very certain that as I continue commenting on the Budget, I will highlight other aspects.

Madam Speaker, the second observation I want to make is how the speech was delivered. If the written text a Minister has is verified by all the stakeholders in the Government, the Minister will read it and people will understand what he/she is trying to say. Now, what I noticed the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning do was very strange. After every sentence that he read, he made running commentaries. Now, that is very strange for a Minister of Finance and National Planning. It is important –

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kamfinsa!

At this moment, we are not looking at how the hon. Minister delivered the speech in the House. We are more interested in hearing you debate the Budget Speech. I think, this is very important for the sake of the people in your constituency and even your sake. So, can you, please, concentrate on the speech rather than debating the hon. Minister.

You may go ahead.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I have five minutes remaining.

Madam Speaker, I have just highlighted preliminary observations. I will now talk about the specific issues.

Madam Speaker, the Budget speaks to how the economy should be unlocked. I said, in my earlier remarks, that this is what should have happened earlier. We unlock then we start achieving other objectives.

Madam Speaker, I will go straight to mining because it is a very important sector that obviously needs to be attended to. The hon. Minister responsible for mines held a press conference and announced that Vedanta Resources Limited had been allowed to come back and run Konkola Copper Mines (KCM), which has three mine sites, namely Chingola, Chililabombwe and Nampundwe, and there is a smelter in Kitwe. The investor who was announced left US$1.1 billion in liabilities in 2019. Liabilities simply mean money that is owed. If Vendanta Resources Limited is the same investor we are bringing back, I am a worried person because the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning set out a mining production target of 3 million tonnes of copper annually over ten years. If Vendanta Resources Limited is the investor who is supposed to help us achieve 3 million tonnes of copper annually, I am a worried person because to achieve that target, the Konkola Deep Mine in Chililabombwe should produce 300,000 tonnes of copper annually. Vendanta Resources Limited cannot make Zambia achieve production of 300,000 tonnes of copper in Chililabombwe. I say so in view of the liabilities that it left behind. Some people have been asking why we cannot allow Vendanta Resources Limited to come back, but we did not chase it. The company failed to provide the resources that are supposed to be given to the mining sector.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, the point I am making, and I want to be placed on record, is that if Vendanta Resources Limited has the capacity to inject the resources that we need into that mine, it should provide a financial statement that shows its income, revenue, liabilities and assets. Currently, it has failed to inform the people of Zambia that, as it comes back, it is ready to inject the money that it promised to invest.

Madam Speaker, we find it strange that having been given incentives, the mining sector has failed to respond. For the benefit of the public, are you aware that by December 2023, we are going to record the lowest copper production in fourteen years? Everyone projects that for this financial year, only 680,000 metric tonnes of copper will be produced despite incentives having been given to the mining sector. So, the point I am making is that as much as we want the Budget to unlock the economy, unfortunately, it has not spoken to the reality on the ground. The reality on the ground is that this year, we will not be able to produce 700,000 metric tonnes of copper.

Mr Tayali: Liquidation!

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, do we need to go back to an investor who cannot pay his liabilities? The answer is ‘No’. So, I stand here, owing to the limitation of time, to quickly remind the people of Zambia that when we bring investors into Zambia, we must be serious.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Kang’ombe: Let us not bring in investors who have failed in the seventeen years they were given to produce the same copper that they want to produce today. So, I stand here, on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa, to indicate that posterity will judge us harshly. Bringing back an investor who has no financial capacity is a disservice to the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayali: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mufalali (Nominated): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor. I am grateful for the opportunity to say one or two words on the Budget presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I want to put it on record that when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was presenting the Budget Speech, I was very alert and none of my colleagues on this side were sleeping.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: On top of that, Madam Speaker, I have a lot of respect for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who left the economy flourishing at 7.7 per cent at the time the Patriotic Front (PF) took over the Government.

Interruptions

Mr Kambita: The gross domestic product (GDP) growth.

Mr Mufalali: Yes, the gross domestic product (GDP) growth.

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister was presenting the Budget Speech, I was very alert, not sleeping, because there was a statement that was made –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Try as much as possible to not debate the hon. Minister.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, I am actually talking about GDP growth. The GDP growth was at 7.7 per cent, but when our colleagues came in, …

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members on my left!

Mr Mufalali: … one year down the line, it went down to 6.6 per cent. By 2020, it was in the negative, at 0.28 per cent. That is the rate at which the PF Government left the GDP growth when it left power.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mufalali: Our colleagues literally wrecked the economy and brought it to its knees. When the New Dawn Government came into power, it made sure that the economy started growing. Now, our colleagues are asking why we started with stimulation. When resuscitating someone, you must first ensure that he/she is responding before treating him/her. That is why we had to stimulate the economy for it to start responding.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mufalali: The economy was dead when our colleagues left. That was the state in which it was. The implementation of many projects had stalled, the generation of power at Kafue Lower Gorge Power Station had failed, and the previous Government did not even complete the 115 schools it was building. Our colleagues failed to complete projects.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, the Budget speaks for itself. From 2.7 per cent, the GDP is now at 4.7 per cent; it has gone up by six points. Our colleagues left it in the negatives and the hon. Minister told us that he found the economy in the Intensive Care Unit (ICU). However, it is now growing, courtesy of the United Party for National Development (UPND) New Dawn Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, let me state why the New Dawn Government is saying that we need to unlock economic potential. We need to unlock economic potential in order for the economy to start growing.

Madam Speaker, what our colleagues did in 2011– For the first time, we had a Government that defaulted on a coupon in 2020 …

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: … because it had over-borrowed. Even as I speak about over-borrowing –

Mr Mukosa: Debate the Budget.

Mr Mufalali: I am talking about the Budget.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, our colleagues over-borrowed. In 2011, the GDP was 16 per cent, but it went up to 140 per cent.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Now, our colleagues are telling us to subsidise this and that, and that mealie meal must be cheap. How can mealie meal be cheap when they wrecked the economy? That is what they did.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Mufalali: You wrecked the economy, Sir, in case you have forgotten. My psychology lecturer is seated at the far end. There is what is called gas-lighting. You are not going to gas-light Zambians because it cannot be –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Mufalali!

The term “rape the economy” that you used is unparliamentary.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, I said that they “wrecked” the economy. Members of the PF wrecked the economy.

Madam Speaker, I was saying that there are specialists in psychology in this House. The hon. Minister of Education is a specialist in psychology, and he taught me one concept called gas-lighting. Members of the PF are trying to gas-light Zambians.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mufalali: They know very well that they damaged the economy, yet they are telling the whole nation that we must start subsidising commodities. How do you subsidise in an economy that is failing? They want to pretend that everything was okay when they were in power. They have forgotten that they wrecked the economy. The issue at hand –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let me guide the hon. Member on the Floor.

Please, do not move away from the Budget Speech. Link whatever you talking about on the Floor to the Budget Speech. You are forgetting the Budget Speech.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I appreciate your guidance.

Madam Speaker, economic growth under the New Dawn Government is projected at 4.8 per cent. That is very good. That is what a working Government does. Moving an economy from the negatives to 4.8 per cent is not a small achievement. With such a Government, we will start ticking. This Government is there for the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, in unlocking the potential of this nation, the 114 schools that were left unattended to, are being completed. That is a clear indication that we have a working Government. Our colleagues failed to complete the projects they started, but they are saying that they can do this or that or they did this. It does not work like that. The plan is very clear.

Madam Speaker, before I sit down, I want to indicate that this is a progressive Government that will spend K443.5 million on dams and use K6 million to renovate those in bad shape. That is unlocking the potential in the economy because those who have animals will have enough water for their animals and will have beef on their tables. That is what it means to unlock the economy.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I want to indicate that it is important for people to understand the Budget. There are basic things people need to understand. In the Budget Speech, there is a diagram that indicates how much will be borrowed for the whole Budget, yet someone stood and said that the Government will borrow K83 million. It is not K83 million. The amount is indicated in the Budget Speech in black and white.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, the diagram shows what will be borrowed domestically and internationally. So, it is a fallacy for someone to stand and say that the Government will borrow K83 billion. It is not acceptable.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Mufalali: I submit, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Your time is up.

Hon. Members, there are two documents before us. When we are talking about something from the Annual Borrowing Plan, let us refer to it. The same goes for the Budget Speech.

We can make progress.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for this opportunity.

Mr J. E. Banda interjected.

Mr Chanda: The people of Petauke Central are very excited that I have stood to speak.

Madam Speaker, the people of Kanchibiya gave me the mandate to move a Private Members’ Motion on the conditions of service for Councillors. I want to thank the ten Councillors from Kanchibiya, the good people of Nalolo Constituency for seconding that important Motion and the Executive for being magnanimous.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: The Motion, which was unanimously agreed to in this august House, has seen the light of day and Councillors from the 156 constituencies can look forward to better pay. Our call is that the increment from the current K3,000 be monumental so that our people, the hardworking Councillors, do not labour in vain.

Madam Speaker, I will speak, again, in the context of what the people of Kanchibiya can understand. I refuse to be drawn into the economic jargon for Lusaka because my people may not understand. So, I will restrict myself largely to the agricultural sector because that is the mainstay of the local people in Kanchibiya.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, increased agricultural productivity is non-negotiable for those of us who come from rural areas, and we take an interest in this sector. In Kanchibiya, there are about 25,000 farmers, of which only about 5,230 are on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). The majority of our people are not on FISP. What that means is that we must generate options for the people who must tap into other opportunities. So, finance is very important to support irrigation and mechanisation.

Mr Munsanje: Muleumfwa?

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I do not wish to be political. I want to be real because the people of Kanchibiya are watching me right now. There are vast water bodies in Kanchibiya but, irrespective of that, our people are still accustomed to rain-fed farming. What we need is mechanisation. Our clarion call to the hon. Minister is for him to tell us when the agriculture credit window is going to open. That is what the 25,000 farmers have asked me to find out this afternoon. We want to know when the facility will come on board and how it will be rolled out.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, the people of Kanchibiya have been clear on how we, as a country, have remained maize-centric. We have an opportunity to summon our collective wisdom in this House, a House of solutions, to move from the monocrop and diversify in line with our Food and Nutrition Policy as a country. Before the crop we call maize was introduced in Zambia, in the 1930s, our people used to grow other crops, but they have moved from that in the years that have passed since. The Ministry of Agriculture can, in fact, be said to be the ministry of maize. We must rethink the maize-centric approach and policy that we have followed, with regards to agriculture. The 25,000 farmers in Kanchibiya are ready to diversify.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The good people of Kanchibiya are listening. Can we give the hon. Member the chance.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, almost anything can grow in our climate. There are about three different terrains in Kanchibiya. We can grow wheat, sorghum, millet and many other crops. Again, our clarion call to the Government is that we should have a policy to shift from the maize-centric approach we have followed since time immemorial, and I will move a Private Member’s Motion on that.

Madam Speaker, I wish to report back on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The people of Kanchibiya are watching me, and the CDF is working for us.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: At least, we agree.

Mr Chanda: However, that does not mean that we do not need to continue perfecting the model. The model must be perfected and the disbursements have to be timely, but the CDF is working for us.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I also wish to support the calls for the country to revert to the three months fuel price review system. The monthly adjustments have affected planning and productivity of the local farmers in Kanchibiya.

Madam Speaker, I wish to place it on record, yet again, that when it comes to educational facilities, we are doing what we can. However, we appeal to the Government to complete the incomplete structures, such as Chewe Shinfwamba Seconday School, Kopa Day Secondary School, Kabinga Day Secondary School, John Mubanga Secondary School and Luchembe Day Secondary School. When that is done, our people can go to school. We must cure the problem of weekly boarders because of what our children, especially the girl children, are being exposed to.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I want to thank the people of Kanchibiya for giving me the opportunity to represent them in this House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Independent hon. Members, we would have liked to hear your voice. I hope, you will debate tomorrow. Your voice is very important.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me, on behalf of the good people of Pemba Constituency, to contribute to the debate on this very important Motion.

Madam Speaker, the Budget presented on this Floor brought joy and hope to the good people of Pemba Constituency, and they are very happy with it. The Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is no longer –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Chonde!

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue, hon. Member for Pemba.

Mr Hamwaata: Madam Speaker, the issue of the CDF being a game-changer is no longer debatable. I am happy that we all agree that the CDF is changing the lives of people. I am also happy to inform this august House that over 400 pupils in Pemba are being supported by the Government through the CDF. The Free Education Policy is being implemented. Some girl children were married off because their parents could not manage to pay their school fees. Today, girl children are in class. The future of some boys and girls was almost destroyed under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. Today, those children are in class because the Free Education Policy is being implemented. Further, 1,880 pupils were learning under trees or used to be overcrowded in one classroom, but I am proud to inform this august House that we have provided classroom space. The CDF is working, and it is really a game-changer. We have provided desks to over 5,400 pupils who used to sit on the floor while attending classes during the PF Government, and they are attending classes in a conducive environment now.

Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to comment on the subsidies. I have travelled to all the twelve wards in my constituency with a view to getting the constituents’ opinion on subsidies. Today, I stand in this august House to report on the response I got from the constituents.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer, hammer!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Hamwaata: Madam Speaker, the response I got from my people when I travelled to the twelve wards is that they would rather receive –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

The House adjourned at 1840 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 11^th October, 2023.

____________

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Order Paper

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