Friday, 7^th July, 2023

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other Government Business, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, Hon. Stanley K. Kakubo, MP, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House from today, 7^th July, 2023, until further notice.

RURAL ELECTRIFICATION AUTHORITY SYMPOSIUM

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) has been authorised to hold a symposium to update all hon. Members of Parliament on the electrification of public facilities in rural areas using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The symposium will take place from Tuesday, 11^th to Thursday, 13^th July, 2023, from 0900 to 1300 hours, in the Amphitheatre, here at Parliament Buildings.

Hon. Members have been divided into three groups according to the Committees they belong to. Further, each hon. Member is expected to attend the symposium once on the assigned day, as already guided in the notice that was distributed to all hon. Members of Parliament. It should, however, be noted that hon. Ministers, the First and Second Deputy Speakers, the hon. Government Chief Whip, the hon. Leader of the Opposition and the hon. Deputy Government Chief Whip will attend the symposium on any day of their choice.

I urge all hon. Members to attend this important event.

I thank you.

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for according me an opportunity to raise this very significant matter of urgent public importance, which is based on the constitutional provision –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, let me apologise. We were so much in a hurry. We are supposed to allow the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House to indicate the business for next week. I apologise. We will come back to you.

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Kakubo): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the House Business Committee met on Thursday, 6^th July, 2023, to determine and schedule Business of the House for next week, covering the period 11^th to 14^th July, 2023, as follows:

1. Announcements

The Hon. Madam Speaker may make announcements to the House on any day when it is necessary to do so.

1. Rulings

The Hon. Madam Speaker may render rulings if there will be any.

1. Ministerial Statements

Hon. Ministers may make ministerial statements if there will be any.

1. Reports on International Conferences

Reports on International Conferences may be considered if there will be any.

1. Parliamentary Committee Reports

The House will consider the following Committee report during the period: The Report of the Committee on Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation on the Feasibility of Setting up a Pension Scheme. This will be considered on 13^th July, 2023.

1. Questions for Oral Answer

Hon. Ministers will respond to fifty-five Questions for Oral Answer as set out hereunder. The details of the questions are contained in the Notice of Questions circulated to all hon. Members earlier.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the House Business Committee, and in accordance with Standing Order No. 189(5) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, I have the pleasure to present the business for next week to the House as done.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR KAFWAYA, HON. MEMBER FOR LUNTE, ON DR MUSOKOTWANE, HON.  MINISTER OF FINANCE AND NATIONAL PLANNING, NOT PRESENTING THE FINANCIAL REPORT OF THE REPUBLIC TO THE HOUSE

Mr Kafwaya: On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for allowing me, on behalf of the people of Lunte, to raise this very important matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, when a Government embarks on an expedition to –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, kindly tell us which hon. Minister you are directing the matter to.

Mr Kafwaya: The hon. Minister of Finance and National Development.

Hon. Members: National Planning.

Mr Kafwaya: National Planning. Thank you.

Madam Speaker, I was saying that when a Government embarks on an expedition to blatantly violate the Constitution, then you know that you are headed in a very undesirable trajectory.

Madam Speaker, Article 211 says as follows:

“(1)        The Minister responsible for finance shall, within three months after the end of each financial year, prepare and submit to the Auditor-General the financial report of the Republic in respect of the preceding financial year.

(2)        The Auditor-General shall, within two months of receipt of the financial report, examine the financial report and express an opinion on the report.

(3)        The Minister responsible for finance shall, within one month after the receipt of the Auditor-General’s opinion, lay the financial report, with the Auditor-General’s opinion, before the National Assembly.”

Madam Speaker, the three months which are provided for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to produce the financial statement and submit to the Auditor-General in respect of 2022 ended at the end of March 2023.

Madam Speaker, the two months which are provided for the Auditor-General to assess the financial report and express an opinion on it in respect of the 2022 Financial Report ended at the end of May 2023.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the one month which is provided for the hon. Minister responsible for finance to lay in the House, the financial report, including the Auditor-General’s opinion, finished at the end of June 2023.

Madam Speaker, today is 7^th July, 2023. This Assembly has no single Committee considering and expressing its opinion on the financial report for 2022.

Hon. Government Members: Who has died?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, no one has died. However, the ministerial audits by the Auditor-General substantiate balances contained in the financial report. I now put it to the House that when the Auditor-General brings his report at the end of September this year, what balances will he have substantiated?

Madam Speaker, violating the Constitution –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you are now debating the matter.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, this is a breach of the Constitution –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: It is a very serious matter but you are supposed to state it and not debate it.

Mr Kafwaya: Let me conclude, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, violating the Constitution casts the Government in a very bad light not only in the eyes of its citizens but in the eyes of the international community.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in order to circumvent the constitutional provisions, which are very clear, and pretend as though everything is okay?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, wind up.

Mr Kafwaya: Well, with your direction, Madam Speaker, I seek your further direction on the matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

That is a very important matter. However, according to the conditions of admitting a matter of urgent public importance, there is no calamity that will occur.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I agree it is a very important matter, but please, come up with an urgent question over the same. According to the conditions of admitting a matter of urgent of public importance, the matter you have described does not fall under those conditions. So, please, put in an urgent question so that the matter can be addressed in the House.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

IMPENDING JOB LOSSES AT MANGANESE PLANTS IN SERENJE

339. Mr E. Banda (Muchinga) asked the Minister of Energy:

1. whether the Government is aware that more than 2,000 workers at manganese smelting plants in Serenje District are on the verge of losing jobs due to ZESCO Limited’s intention to cut power supply to the plants on 1^st July, 2023; and
2. if so, what urgent measures are being taken to prevent the job losses.

The Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Mr Muchima) (on behalf of the Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala)): Madam Speaker, the Government is not aware that over 2,000 workers are on the verge of losing their jobs in Serenje District from various manganese smelting plants. It should be noted that ZESCO Limited had applied to the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) to convert MD3 and MD4 customers to Power Supply Agreements (PSA) category and this has since been approved by the regulator. Under this scheme, firm power will be accorded to customers under this category and each affected customer will negotiate a tariff with ZESCO Limited. As of today, 7^th July, 2023, owners of manganese mines are currently engaged in PSA negotiations with ZESCO Limited and have not been disconnected from supply.

Madam Speaker, having said that, part (b) of the question then falls off as it has been addressed in (a).

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me, first of all, to thank the Acting hon. Minister of Energy for providing those official positions. The hon. Member of Parliament who has raised this question is relying on information that he has been provided with, that there is an impasse between ZESCO Limited and the manganese mining companies. Has the ministry taken the initiative to go and establish facts in Serenje so that it is better placed to resolve this reported impasse from Serenje?

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before the Acting hon. Minister of Energy responds, there is an indication for a point of order by the hon. Member for Mitete. What is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, thank you so much. I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. Whatever is done before sets a precedent.

Madam Speaker, I have been in this House for quite long. The current Constitution that we are using was amended in 2016. Our colleagues in the Patriotic Front (PF) Party were in the driving seat for five years, and during that time, I never saw the hon. Minister responsible for finance do what my colleague today is saying we should do, which is to lay the financial report in this House. Following that, was the hon. Member for Lunte in order, today, to say that that is a breach of the Constitution, the same Constitution they enacted?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much. I reserve my ruling on this point of order. I will come and make the ruling at a later stage.

May the Acting hon. Minister of Energy respond.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kamfinsa for the supplementary question. There is currently no such impasse. However, three or four months ago, this matter was brought to the attention of the Government, through the ERB, and it made a decision. That is why today, officers from ZESCO Limited are in Serenje, except that the owners of the smelting plants do not want the tariffs to be adjusted upwards because when that is done, they will be connected to the main supply line, meaning they will be on the main line like other mines. However, they do not want the high tariffs, and they want to consume power just like any other customer. As such, they are using threats so that they are not connected to the direct line like the other mines. So, the Government is aware and is taking steps to address this matter.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Banda: Madam Speaker, our interest are the people of Zambia who are employed. Now, speaking based on facts, as of 28^th June, ZESCO Limited had issued letters to smelting plants stating that should they not reach an agreement by 1^st July, 2023, power will be disconnected. My question to the hon. Minister is: What urgent measures is the Government putting in place to prevent job losses in the event that ZESCO Limited and the smelters fail to reach an agreement?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Muchinga for that question. In the first place, do the manganese companies want power or not because the Government is trying to connect them to the main supply line, meaning they will not be disconnected at any time although that calls for higher tariffs. When they are connected to the main supply line, they will have power throughout and this will increase their production. If they want, they can use the normal rate but that will affect their production. However, the Government made a decision and it asked officers from ZESCO Limited to go and negotiate with them. Of course, we do not want job losses. An amicable solution will be found.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, much of the manganese which is being processed in Muchinga comes from Luapula Province because of low power voltage. Obviously, that increases the cost because the manganese has to be transported from Luapula to Muchinga. Is ZESCO Limited considering increasing the power voltage in Luapula so that, maybe, the smelters can shift their plants to Luapula where the manganese is so that they cut down on the cost than ZESCO Limited increasing the tariffs for it to make a profit?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kankoyo for that question. I am sure hon. Members have heard about the Kalungwishi Project which will be implemented in Luapula. Right now, the Government is having negotiations to make sure that the project is implemented. Once that project commences, this issue will be a thing of the past.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, ZESCO Limited is a business entity which is supposed to generate resources for it to provide a service to this country. Similarly, I think we are supposed to protect jobs. So, I would like to find out whether this manganese company is up to date with the electricity bills in view of the current tariffs? Has it defaulted? If so, we want to know how much it owes ZESCO Limited.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, yes, ZESCO Limited is there to provide a service but the question was about job losses and not arrears. If the hon. Member wants details regarding the question he has asked, he can come to the office.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that ZESCO Limited is in the process of converting MD3 and MD4 customers to Power Supply Agreements (PSA) and the end users, who are the manganese mines, have indicated that it will be expensive to carry out production and that they will have a lot of pressure to participate in the export market. What is the ministry doing about that because the major concern here is job losses? If the manganese mines will not be competitive in the export market, of course, they will shut down the plants. So, what interventions will the Government put in place to mitigate that?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The voices are becoming louder and louder. Can you, please, lower your voices so that we are able to get the questions and the responses as well.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Wusakile for the supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, 1 MW to 5 MW is for MD 3 customers while 5 MW to 10 MW is for MD 4 customers, and this is not sufficient for the smelters. The smelters need more power so they have to be on the maximum demand tariff like other mines, and that demands for higher tariffs. This is not fixed and they can negotiate with ZESCO Limited. However, would it not be better for them to have power all the time because as I already said, this will increase their production and they will even have more business. If they want to continue using the tariffs they are using, they are the ones who will lose out. So, it is up to them to keep their companies running and to secure employment for the people, and this is not up to the Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

NON-ELIGIBILITY OF MALES AGED THIRTY-FIVE FOR GOVERNMENT EMPOWERMENT PROGRAMMES

340. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

1. why males aged thirty-five and above are not eligible for Government empowerment programmes that have been made available to women and youths; and
2. what measures are being taken to ensure that the affected males are included in the empowerment programmes.

The Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu) (on behalf of the Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms D. Mwamba)): Madam Speaker, with regard to part (a) of the question, why males aged thirty-five and above were left out of the Government empowerment programmes that have been availed to women and youths, I wish to highlight that the ministry is implementing various empowerment programmes which target both males and females, and these include:

1. the Food Security Pack;
2. community self-help;
3. village banking;
4. functional literacy; and
5. skills training, which is also found in the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts.

Madam Speaker, the ministry is also implementing the Supporting Women’s Livelihoods Programme, a component of the Girls Education and Women Empowerment and Livelihoods (GEWEL) Project. This is a World Bank supported programme which is strategically designed to support women from extremely poor households.

Madam Speaker, the rationale behind the programme is that women are more vulnerable to poverty, and I am giving the answer. Strategically, it is designed to support women from extremely poor households. As I said, there are so many women who are poverty-stricken in terms of the labour market, lone motherhood, ageing and education. About 60 per cent of female headed households of the population are poor compared to 53 per cent of the male headed households. That is according to the survey of 2015.

In addition, Madam Speaker, the average monthly per capital income by sex of head shows that male headed households have higher per capital income than the female headed households. Further, school attendance rates for females at primary school age population between seven and thirteen was 84.8 per cent, but this dropped drastically to 22.5 per cent for females at higher learning age population between nineteen and twenty-two.

Madam Speaker, the Gender Status Report of 2019 also highlighted critical gender issues that remain pervasive in Zambia as well as the persistent challenges in addressing equality and equity issues and persistent gaps in opportunities to access education, productive resources, health cover, and the declining levels of employment among women and the youth, especially those in rural areas.

Madam Speaker, the labour force participation of women declined from 77.7 per cent to 35.3 per cent in 2019 and only 26.7 per cent of women are participating in the labour market, compared to 44.8 per cent of men. This perpetuates viciously in inter-generational cycles of poverty and continues to disadvantage women, as evidenced by what we are seeing here. There are a few women in Parliament than men, and that is just to cement the argument. It also deepens rifts in society that are unfavourable to human development and consequently national development. While men above thirty-five are prone to vulnerabilities and poverty, it is evident that women are more likely to be poor than men. Once impoverished, women remain poor for a longer period of time than men, due to the low levels of education among them. The idea of supporting more women and the youth through certain programmes is, therefore, a deliberate mechanism to enhance their development in the pursuit of gender balance.

Madam Speaker, based on this, the local Government, through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), is empowering women with grants. These are aimed at enhancing the livelihoods of women in the communities. On the other hand, men above thirty-five are provided with loans as they are better off than women. I also wish to indicate that the Government has provided other facilities for the men. The creation of the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development has created another platform for men to access loans and other facilities being provided by the ministry. I wish to also emphasise that support under social protection mainly targets the household and not the individual and, as such, when women are empowered, the entire household benefits.

Madam Speaker, in terms of the measures the Government is taking to ensure that the affected males are included in empowerment programmes, our response is that there are no immediate measures being taken by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. However, I should emphasise that other ministries such as the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock are providing empowerment programmes for men. Therefore, the men are already benefiting from various programmes being implemented by the Government, as I said earlier. However, the Government will continue looking into the plight of all vulnerable citizens – I think this may interest you now – ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: ... through the review of various programmes and policies. In this regard, the concerns raised by the hon. Member will be addressed holistically as we revise the National Social Protection Policy, the National Gender Policy and other relevant polices. This will ensure that measures are put in place to further address this category of our society.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, what we must understand is that poverty has no boundary. It does not choose who to hit whether one is a man, a woman or a youth; it hits anyone. I heard the hon. Minister state that the men are catered for through skills training so even education is supposed to be provided to both men and women. My substantive question is: What is the ministry going to do for the men because the hon. Minister indicated that even men can enrol in skills training centres? What will the ministry do so we can see a high number of men being enrolled, so that they can be empowered through skills training?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabwata for that supplementary question. I wish to indicate that I answered that question holistically. I said that we have taken that matter into account because it is a concern. I further said there is a need for us to review some programmes and policies because of the concerns that have been highlighted. So, not until those policies are revised, will we be able to take into account some of those concerns. However, I think it is important for us hon. Members of Parliament to appreciate the vulnerability between men and women so that we put in place programmes that can favour the most vulnerable sex in our society.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, speaking from a point of view from someone from the village – first of all, a magnet will always attract a metal and salt will always attract water. These are facts. Poverty, like the hon. Member for Kabwata stated, has no boundary and it does not know any gender. It is a condition applicable to both genders, and it also does not know sex.

Madam Speaker, the men who stay in townships are literate unlike those in villages in Kaputa, Kalabo and other rural areas. Is empowering women, and leaving out the men aged above thirty-five, not an avenue of increasing poverty amongst the men? The men will have no support and no base. Is leaving out the men above thirty-five in empowerment programmes not enhancing poverty amongst the men?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I wish to reiterate the fact that the Government is now revising policies and that should sink in our minds. We have taken into account the concerns that the hon. Members of Parliament are raising, and I said that we are going to revise the Gender Policy and the Social Protection Policy. However, the answer to the hon. Member’s question is no. As a responsible Government, we cannot think of enhancing poverty amongst the men aged above thirty-five. I also want to say that the Government does not work in silos. There are programmes in the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts which cover youths above thirty-five but they can also tap into the other avenues in the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock. So, if they do not find solace in the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts, definitely, they can go to the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, since the New Dawn Administration works methodically, those concerns have been into account by increasing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), and men are found in all the constituencies. I come from a rural constituency so I know what the hon. Member is talking about. We are giving grants and loans to people in rural and urban constituencies. We are not segregating. We are giving everyone a loan or grant, even if one is above thirty-five. We are doing things differently unlike what used to happen previously.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Hon. Government Member: Sit down!

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, those are some of the avenues that the New Dawn Administration came up with to take into account the concerns raised.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride, and even a poor person would have rode a horse. If men had the capacity to occupy positions of women, they would have become women so that they are empowered.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I want to get a comment from the hon. Minister. Is the application of these policies not creating a changed society, where women will become headers, and will head communities, and the males will become the subject, which is not a common scenario in Africa and in Zambia? So, is it an agenda to change the heading of societies in Zambia and in Africa as a whole?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, this is becoming very interesting. However, I urge my counterpart that it is important that we support women. Women should be supported.

Mrs Chonya: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: In every game, there are rules, and I will give an example of football. If we say only those under the age of seventeen will play this game, it means those above the age of seventeen will not participate or if we say only women will play this game, I do not expect the hon. Member for Kalabo Central to be part of the team because he is not a woman. So, programmes for women are for women. The only thing the hon. Member can advocate for is programmes for men, if there are no such programmes.

Mrs Chonya: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I indicated that men are not segregated in anyway because there are programmes that are meant for everyone. I gave an example of programmes under the CDF. When we are offering skills training, there is no segregation, and a boy, a girl, a woman or a man can access this training. So, I do not see where segregation comes into play when it comes to men above thirty-five. However, in case we continue having these concerns, the hon. Member should play a critical role when we revise the Social Protection Policy and the Gender Policy and he should give us ideas on what he expects to be included in the revised polices.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I, once again, thank you for the opportunity to ask the Acting hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services a supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister listed so many different Government programmes that are meant to help and empower our people, and most of these programmes are old. Some were started before 2000 and others after 2000. Has the ministry taken steps to assess the impact of these programmes? How are they transforming society? Are they relevant in reducing poverty levels in our communities, to deal with the concern that the hon. Member for Kalabo Central presented? The hon. Minister said there are four to five different programmes in different ministries. Has the ministry assessed if these different programmes have an impact on our people?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Kang’ombe for that important supplementary question. The answer is very simple. Unlike what used to happen in the past, we are now monitoring and evaluating the programmes. The programmes that I mentioned are very relevant, but let me add that they are not cast in stone. The world is devolving. Definitely, we will be required as the Government to move with the times. So, if the hon. Member feels there are other programmes that can add value apart from those we are implementing in the ministry, he can advise us accordingly. We do not have the monopoly of wisdom and we always have room for people to bring up those issues. In fact, we always carry out what we call annual reviews. So, when we are carrying out those reviews, that is when we decide whether a certain programme needs to be enhanced or it should be left the way it is. As I said earlier, we do not have the monopoly of wisdom. Please, bring your progressive ideas and we will look at them.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing me to ask the Acting hon. Minister a question. I just want to understand what the Government is doing to harmonise policy because the hon. Minister intimated earlier that other ministries are providing empowerment programmes for men. However, I think people above thirty-five are not considered for skills training under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). In addition, there is a cry from the people of Kalabo. So, is the Government considering harmonising policy so that even males above a certain age are not disadvantaged to that effect?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, there are policies we make that are in tandem with international norms, and I will give a practical example. A youth is a person aged between eighteen and thirty-five. So, when you are making policies, they cannot be in confrontation with those at the international level. However, we may do something about those that are domesticated. I believe all the policies for the youth, the women, community development and agriculture are progressive for now. However, as I said earlier when I was answering the hon. Member for Kamfinsa’s question, if one feels there are policies that need to be harmonised, one is welcome to come to our office.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My apologies. We have to move to the next question. We have Bills to clear today.

PLANS TO CONNECT NSAMA DISTRICT TO THE NATIONAL ELECTRICITY GRID

341. Mr Elias Musonda (Chimbamilonga) asked the Minister of Energy:

1. whether the Government has any plans to connect Nsama District to the national electricity grid;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented;
3. what the estimated cost of the project is;
4. what the estimated time frame for the completion of the project is; and
5. if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Mr Muchima) (on behalf of the Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala)): Madam Speaker, yes, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Rural Electrification Authority (REA), has plans to connect Nsama District to the national electricity grid.

Madam Speaker, the first feasibility study was conducted in 2015, and the initial plan was to connect Nsama District from Mporokoso with a distance of 70 km. However, the new feasibility study that was conducted in October 2022 indicates that it is more viable to connect the district from Nsumbu Bay with a distance of 88 km. The project will be implemented in phases. The first phase of the project involves electricity supply to Mutundu Primary School, Chisela Primary School, Chisela Rural Health Centre and surrounding areas. The work involves constructing a total of 37 km of 33 kV overhead lines from an existing 33 kV in Nsumbu area and 7.9 km of 400 V overhead lines.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through REA, has allocated K18 million under the 2023 Work Plan and Budget to commence the project in the third quarter of 2023. The second phase of the project under the 2024 Work Plan and Budget will involve electricity supply to Nsemiwe Primary, Kabobole Primary, Mutumpike Primary, Nsama-Kakoma Primary and Nsama-Kakoma Rural Health Centre, Munwe Primary, Cholwe Primary, Mwemwe Primary, Mikose Primary, Tupele Primary, Chiwala Primary and Chiwala Rural Health Centre, Bweupe Primary and Chikwanda Primary. The work involves constructing a total of 29.5 km of 33 kV overhead lines from an existing 33 kV overhead lines in Nsumbu area and 7.81 km of 400 V overhead lines.

Madam Speaker, the total cost of implementing the first phase of the project is estimated at K18 million while that of implementing the second phase is estimated at K16.5 million.

Madam Speaker, the estimated timeframe for the two phases of the project is twenty-four months.

Madam Speaker, as earlier alluded to, the Government has plans to connect Nsama District to the national electricity grid.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the responses provided to the question. However, I just want him to be clear. He stated, when responding to the question by the hon. Member, that the second phase will be implemented in the third quarter of 2023. The third quarter has already began, and today is 7^th July, 2023. Can the hon. Minister be specific and state when the project will begin, especially that it was already budgeted for in the 2023 National Budget.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Mushanga, the Member for Bwacha, for the supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, indeed, we are in the third quarter of 2023. As usual, this is a Government of laws. The contract is with the Attorney-General and after the details are verified, the project will start.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Elias Musonda: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister did not state the commencement date of the second phase of the project. What is the tentative date for the commencement of Phase II of the project?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, you do not name a child before it is born. You name it after its born. I stated that the first phase will be implemented in 2023. Wait until that phase is done then you will know the commencement date for the second phase of the project.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, usually, ministries plan, so there should be a plan. You stated that the duration of the project is twenty-four months. So, the ministry at some point will start the second phase.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, the commencement of the second phase of the project will depend on the completion of the first phase. However, the whole work will be done in twenty-four months. So, I cannot state when the second phase will commence because the first phase has not even started. I indicated that the contract is with the Attorney-General. We will only know the commencement date for the second phase when the contract is brought back to the ministry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Elias Musonda: Madam Speaker, I want the hon. Minister to be very clear on the financing mechanisms of the project. He said that K18 million has been allocated for Phase I while the cost of implementing Phase II is K16.5 million. Now my question is: What financing mechanisms is the Government putting in place to ensure that there is a seamless transition from Phase I to Phase II of the project?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member may note that the cost of implementing Phase I is K18 million while that of implementing Phase II is K16.5 million. In the initial stage, there is land clearing and this costs more than the second phase. So, what is important is that the K18 million and K16.5 million is already available and the phases will be done concurrently. When the first phase finishes, the other one will start. I indicated that the money is available at the REA and the works will commence after the Attorney-General clears the contract.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, before I pose a supplementary question, permit me to place on record that we, on the left side of the House, are struggling to get used to Fridays without The Vice-President’s Question Time and this is the fifth Friday without it. Maybe, we should consider having this segment when Her Honour the Vice-President is available so that we can have an opportunity to engage her.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated in one of his responses that the first feasibility study

 was done in 2015 and the initial plan was to connect Nsama District from Mporokoso with a distance of 70 km. He further indicated that the second feasibility study was done and the plan is to connect the district from Nsumbu, with a distance of 88 km. What informed this viability to change the connecting point? I think a lot of work was done and if the Government had followed the first feasibility study, the project should have been under way.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu for the question.

Madam Speaker, let me place on record that the Vice-President is second to the Republican President. She also has many national commitments, and she is doing a lot of work. Her presence here and elsewhere is important.

That is a very good supplementary question. As Acting Minister of Energy, I came ready for you.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, it is beneficial to tap power from Nsumbu Bay because there will be more benefits from the project. There will be eighteen schools, about 180 households, a post office, Nsama Health Centre, a civic centre and Government offices at the old central business district (CDB) of Nsama. As hon. Members may be aware, Mporokoso is not yet connected to the national grid, and it will even be quicker to connect it from Nsumbu Bay. The whole essence is that there are more benefits of using that route than the other one.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ISSUED LICENCES COUNTRYWIDE.

342. Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

1. how many mineral exploration licences were issued, countrywide, as of August, 2022;
2. how many areas, countrywide, were under exploration, as of August, 2022;
3. when mineral explorations were last conducted in the following districts:
4. Mufumbwe; and

1. Kasempa;

1. what the results of the explorations were; and
2. how many mining licences were issued:

1. following the explorations at (a); and
2. from 1968 to 2021.

Interruptions

The Minister of Youth, Sports and Arts (Mr Nkandu) (on behalf of the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe)): Madam Speaker, you know I have cousins from the Copperbelt by the names of Binwell and Kang’ombe; these hon. Members of Parliament.

Laughter

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, 6,953 exploration licences were issued, out of which only 2,900 are currently active.

Madam Speaker, 23,135 areas were issued with licences as at August 2022 countrywide.

Madam Speaker, in Mufumbwe District, there are about ninety-four active exploration licences and exploration works in the licensed areas is ongoing. In Kasempa District, there are about 120 active exploration licenses whose exploration works are also ongoing. In addition, the geochemical survey was completed in other areas and the results show copper mineralisation with an average grade of 1 per cent.

Madam Speaker, the number of mining licences issued for mineral exploration in response to part (a) is 2,527 mining licences, out of which only 1,439 are currently active. From 1968 to 2021, 2,492 mining licences were issued and only 1,404 are currently active.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, it beats me; it looks like somebody bewitched we, the Zambians, and that person is dead. We keep complaining about economic challenges, yet –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I do not think the people out there who are listening will be so pleased to hear that they were bewitched.

Mr B. Mpundu: They are also wondering why we keep complaining about economic challenges.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Find a better word for the sake of the people out there and even the hon. Members who are here. I do not think they will be pleased to hear that they were bewitched.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I do not know what happened to us as a people of Zambia. We keep complaining about economic challenges, yet all of us here agree that this country is endowed with minerals. It will interest hon. Members that almost half the country has not been explored to establish how many minerals we have. That is why today, they will discover there is sugilite in Mansa, tomorrow there is gold in Kansenseli, and the other day there is lithium in the Southern Province.

Madam Speaker, I am sure the Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is aware that almost half the country has not been explored to establish the sort of minerals and the extent of the minerals we have, and the story of Mufumbwe is no different from the rest of the country. Does the Government intend to spend money to explore the other half of the country that has not been explored so that we can establish how many minerals we have in the country and how much we are worth, so that we do not have to go begging to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) for handouts?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Mpundu for that supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, the Government has been advocating for Zambians to form co-operatives to enable them access artisanal licences, either individually or through a co-operative, and explore areas that have not been exploited, as Hon. Mpundu put it. The answer is, yes, the Government obviously is putting in place deliberate policies. It is also revising some policies and is trying to amend some Acts that will allow us do what the hon. Member suggested.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the answers he has given to the people of Mufumbwe and the Zambians at large.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said that in Mufumbwe, there are about ninety-four active exploration companies that are carrying out exploration. Out of the ninety-four, how many are Zambian and how many are foreign?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Kamondo for that question.

Madam Speaker, the question that we were asked is very clear. If we were asked how many Zambian companies are carrying out exploration, we would have brought that information. However, the question we were asked did not require us to get information on how many companies, out of the ninety-four, are Zambian and are foreign.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to ask a supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development how long it takes for a company to explore an area when it is given an exploration licence?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, let me take advantage of this opportunity to give more information in view of the question that the hon. Member has asked. I will start with the artisanal mining rights. Permits for both exploration and mining are valid for two years though renewable, and this is only applicable to either individual Zambians or co-operatives, as I said earlier. We give a minimum of 6.68 ha for artisanal mining to a person who wants to carry out exploration.

Madam Speaker, the permit for small-scale exploration is valid for four years and it is non-renewable. It can only be given to companies where at least 5 per cent is owned by Zambians, and the maximum size of land is 1,000 ha. If Hon. Kampyongo wants to explore an area in Shiwang’andu, the minimum size of land for small-scale exploration is 1,000 ha.

Madam Speaker, the large-scale exploration licence is also valid for four years. However, it may be renewed for two further periods not exceeding three years each and even companies that are 100 per cent owned by foreigners are eligible. The maximum size of land given is 200,000 ha.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Limited-Investments Holdings (ZCCM-IH) is among the exploration companies involved in active exploration. If, yes, does the ministry think it has given enough support to it for it to carry out exploration?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the supplementary question. Let me name the notable companies that are carrying out exploration in Mufumbwe. Maybe, that is the hon. Member’s area of interest. There is Moxico Resources Zambia (MRZ) with licence No. 22756, and I wish to inform the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security that in Kasempa where she hails from, there is Mayfair Global Solutions (MGS) Limited. So, these are the notable companies that are carrying out exploration in both Mufumbwe and Kasempa.

Madam Speaker, for the other part of the question, the answer is, yes, the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mine (ZCCM) has licences. So, it is approachable and it will be able to assist where possible.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, just a reminder. As you ask questions, focus on the main question on the Floor.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity. I actually adopt the words of my colleague the hon. Member for Sinazongwe as my own that in Zambia, we have never taken mining seriously.

Madam Speaker, in the past, one individual was given five licences while others even ten. The hon. Minister indicated that over 12,500 mining licences were issued and about 1,000 plus are currently active. However, he did not indicate whether the other licences are dormant or whether people decided to sell them for speculative purposes. Can the hon. Minister indicate to this House what the Government intends to do with those licences that are dormant.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabwata for that important supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development was very categorical on what will happen to those people who have more than the required number of licences. He indicated that the Government will ensure that some of those licences are given to deserving companies that may want to mine. However, I did not talk about the status of the other licences because some people with those licences are now mining. Obviously, that is what we expect after exploration. When they find what they are looking for, they carry out mining. So, that is why I did not talk about them.

Madam Speaker, as you guided, the question we were asked is very clear. If hon. Members need more information on some of the issues that were not part of this question, we can go and prepare that information.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, as guided, let us focus on Mufumbwe.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we appreciate that this question is constituency-based, but part (a) talks about the issuance of licences countrywide.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that 6,000 exploration licences were given out, but that only 2,900 are active. In my language we say umulembwe wachipuba upwila mulitumfwe, meaning that the okra prepared by a fool finishes by people tasting it before it is even served.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: This is what seems to be happening.

Madam Speaker, the rampant illegal mining activities –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member! I did not get the translation.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, umulembwe wa chichipuba, upwila mulitumfwe, meaning that the okra prepared by a foolish person finishes by people tasting it before it is even served, and this is what seems to be happening to our minerals.

Madam Speaker, we would deport foreigners who were playing around in some areas; we were not playing actually. The hon. Minister has told us the number of licences that were issued. Just yesterday, Afghan nationals who were mining without documentation were arrested in Luapula. My question to the hon. Minister is: Does the Government have a functional system of following up all the licences that are given so it can know which ones are held for speculative purposes, and the ones being held by people who are seriously carrying out exploration so that they can carry out mining as the hon. Minister stated? If we had a tight functional system, I do not think we could have had rampant illegal mining activities taking place countrywide. In Shiwang’andu, we are still grappling with the foreign nationals who came to the area and our people are now living in fear. So, what system is the ministry using to monitor the licences?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Kampyongo, the Member for Shiwang’andu, for that important supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, I remember vividly well that the substantive hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development came to this House and issued a ministerial statement on the Cadastre System. So, I will start from there. When some hon. Members of Parliament were saying illegal mining is only being practiced by foreigners, the hon. Minister who was Acting Minister of Mines and Minerals Development stated that that was not correct. So, I had to dispel that notion.

Madam Speaker, we need to be truthful to ourselves. Even Zambians are also involved in illegal mining. Maybe, some of them are even here.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister! Please, let us avoid discussing ourselves.

Mr Nkandu: We are not talking about –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The hon. Minister has been guided. So, please, allow him to make progress.

We do not discuss ourselves in the House. So, with that guide, hon. Minister, you may proceed.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the guidance. When we are giving out information on the Floor of the House, we need to be very truthful. So, in case there are people engaging in illicit activities, they should make sure that they do not involve in such activities.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is in a transformative mode. We found it in tatters, and that is why I am saying it is now in a transformative mode.

Ms Sefulo: Correct!

Mr Nkandu: It could be good if our colleagues who were in the previous Government supported us because these are issues of inheritance and we are now trying to clean up.

Madam Speaker, to answer the question, we have intensified monitoring because we now have inspectors who are very serious. Whenever we hear that people have gone to Shiwang’andu to get the mineral in that area, we always send inspectors and law enforcers to make sure that those who are involved in illegal activities are dealt with. So, the ministry is in a transformative mode and it is putting in place measures to curb illegality in the areas where minerals are being exploited. One important thing is that exploration is not mining. We need to understand that exploration is not mining.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister! There is an indication for a point of order.

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, what is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Speaker, there was a report on the Floor of this House on illicit financial flows and that a syndicated mining activity is taking place in Konkola Copper Mine (KCM), and it is a very big operation.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to say they have put measures in place to curb illegal activities when there is a full mining activity going on at KCM which has not been stopped by the Government? Is he in order to say they have put measures in place concerning small miners when over 100 machines at KCM are working every day and the hon. Minister is not stopping them?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: It is very difficult for the chair to know whether the measures are working or not. So, because of that, I reserve my ruling so that I study the matter in detail and come back to this House with an informed ruling.

We may continue. The hon. Minister was on the Floor.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I said that we are putting measures in place, and that is why I said we are in a transformative mode and that was very clear. Being in a transformative mode means something is being done. Moreover, Rome was not built in a day, especially when you found a lot of things not correct.

Mr Mbangweta interjected.

Mr Nkandu: Yes, that is parliamentary language. I was looking for a parliamentary word. When things are not correct, obviously you put some measures in place. However, it does not mean that there and then everything will just disappear. Obviously, there could be one or two leakages and that is the reason we are putting measures in place. We have now intensified inspections and those who will be found carrying out illegal mining will definitely be dealt with.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Chibuye (Mkushi North): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the responses that he is giving to the people of Mufumbwe and the Zambians at large.

Madam Speaker, more than 6,000 exploration licences were given during the period under review. Which were the three leading companies in acquiring these licences? Is the hon. Minister in a position to name the three leading companies or individuals who obtained these exploration licences?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, that is if you are able to because the question is different from what the hon. Member asked about. Are you able to respond, hon. Minister?

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, the answer is no. I am unable to.

I thank you, Madam Speaker:

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, if you feel that question is very important, you can file in a question.

I will take the last question from the hon. Member for Namwala.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, may I know how long it takes for the results to be out after the exploration is concluded and before the mining licence is issued.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, as I indicated in the additional information I gave out, there is artisanal, small-scale and large-scale mining. For artisanal mining, the exploration licence is for two years and I believe that in two years, someone will be able to carry out the actual mining and it is renewable, as I said. For small-scale mining exploration, I indicated that the licence is four years and it is non-renewable. So, if after four years someone does not get the results, the licence is not renewed. The licence for large-scale exploration is also four years, but it is renewable.

Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for giving me this opportunity, although I already answered that question.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF LUKULU BRIDGE CONNECTING KANYANTA AND KALUNGWISHI WARDS IN LUNTE CONSTITUENCY

343. Mr Kafwaya (Lunte) to ask the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development when the construction of the Lukulu Bridge connecting Kanyanta and Kalungwishi wards in Lunte Parliamentary Constituency will be completed.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Madam Speaker, the construction of the Lukulu Bridge connecting Kanyanta and Kalungwishi wards in Lunte Parliamentary Constituency will be completed before the end of the third quarter of 2023.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, because of the importance of the bridge, I have been compelled to ask the hon. Minister to state what I should do if that assurance he has given does not come to fruition at the end of the third quarter.

Madam Speaker, two things are happening because of the bridge. Firstly, because of the high cost of fuel, the people of Mukupa Kaoma have suffered, and when they want to go to Kasama to buy essential commodities, they go around through Chitoshi or Zachariah. Secondly, the children of the people of Mulondo village are unable to go to school because most of them go to school at Kanyanta.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: Now, suppose this Government assurance does not materialise at the end of the third quarter, what should I do?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Minister comes in, there is an indication for a point of order by the hon. Member for Pambashe.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, my point of order is in relation to Standing Order No. 65 (b), which states that the Government must be coherent and give a correct position, and it is directed at the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics.

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia gave a directive that all VXs should be sold. Last week and I have a verbatim –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Chitotela: I am very grateful, Mr Speaker. It is good to end with Madam Speaker and to begin with Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I cited Standing Order No.65 and I stated that governance is a collective responsibility. When the President gives a policy pronouncement, all Government institutions must adhere to it.

Last week, Mr Speaker, the Member for Bwacha, Hon. Mushanga, posed a question to Her Honour the Vice-President on the disposal of the Toyota VXs and she spoke about the policy direction given by the President of the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, one of the headlines in today’s News Diggers Newspaper, issue No. 1511 says that, “We’re contemplating reserving some Toyota VXs for visiting VVIPs – Govt, and the hon. Minister responsible for transport and logistics, Mr Tayali, was quoted as having said that “Government is contemplating reserving some of the VX motor vehicles for high level meetings to transport visiting Heads of State.”

Mr Speaker, Standing Orders are very clear on consistency and adhering to the information we give in this august House for the purpose of implementing programmes. I will lay the documents for ease of reference on the Table of the House. Is the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics in order to contradict the policy position of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, on the disposal of Toyota VX motor vehicles, and the position given to the Zambian people in this august House by Her Honour the Vice-President last week on Friday, affirming the position of the President.

Mr Speaker, allow me to lay the response of Her Honour the Vice-President and the News Diggers newspaper issue No. 1511 on the Table of the House for reference. I seek your serious ruling on this matter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: It is good that you are seeking for a serious ruling.

Mr Chitotela laid the papers on the Table.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, the point of order you have raised relates to something that happened some days ago. As such, it is not admissible. For a matter to be admitted, it has to be of recent occurrence. So, let us proceed.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Mr Speaker, the supplementary question from the hon. Member for Lunte was to the effect that the hon. Minister should advise him on what he should do in the unlikely event that the bridge is not completed within the stated time.

Mr Speaker, I am not quite sure whether that is a question in the correct sense of what a question ought to be on the Floor of this House. Let me reassure the hon. Member for Lunte that currently, the Road Development Agency (RDA) is completing the outstanding works. The Treasury released K1,700,000 for the completion of the works. In addition, the RDA is undertaking erosion protection works on the embankments. So, the likelihood of the works not being completed is quite low. Should the target not be met nonetheless, the hon. Member can engage with the RDA or he can engage us further at our offices at the ministry. We agree that this is an important bridge and we commiserate with the people in the areas the hon. Member mentioned for the inconvenience that they are suffering, hence we have provided the required resources to attend to the challenge.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I will allow one question from the hon. Member for Bwacha. This is a constituency-based question.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, at what percentage is the construction of Lukulu Bridge, especially that the hon. Minister stated that it will be completed in the third quarter of this year?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Mr Speaker, let me give background information for the satisfaction of the hon. Member who has asked the question. The project was initially awarded to a company known as Pamwaka Agencies Limited at a contract sum of K17 million, Value Added Tax (VAT) inclusive, and was to run for a duration of eight months. The contract’s start and completion date were 31^st May 2021, to 31^st January 2022, respectively. However, the project was terminated due to funding challenges. At the time of termination, the works were at 80 per cent. So, if you look at the remaining 20 per cent works and the amount that has been allocated, you will see that the gap has actually been bridged, if I may use that expression. No pun intended.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNANCE, HOUSING AND CHIEFS AFFAIRS

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs Affairs for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 29^th June, 2023.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Samakayi: Mr Speaker, in accordance with Standing Order No. 198, your Committee considered an audit report on the management of urban and regional planning with the focus on land usage from 2017 to 2021.

Mr Speaker, allow me to comment on some of the key findings from the audit report and your Committee’s engagement with various stakeholders.

Mr Speaker, it was brought to the attention of your Committee that the National Urbanisation Policy was in draft form as at November –

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you have a mini-Parliament there.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo was inaudible.

Hon. Members: No!

Hon. Member: Calm down.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member for Mwinilunga continue.

Mr Samakayi: Mr Speaker, it was brought to the attention of your Committee that the National Urbanisation Policy was in draft form as at November, 2021 from 2019 when it was first developed. Your Committee notes the importance of this policy in the development of the National Planning Framework and as regards the management and achievement of countrywide urbanisation. In view of this, your Committee bemoans the delayed approval of this important document and strongly recommends that the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development make hasty efforts to ensure that it is approved.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observed that the development of the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) was a challenge for local authorities. It learnt that out of the 111 local authorities in the country, forty-five had developed the IDPs. Your Committee noted that this unfortunate situation was attributed to the lack of financial resources for the local authorities. In light of this, your Committee recommends that adequate funds are allocated towards the preparation of the IDPs. It further recommends that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning should consider establishing a budget line to fund the development of local area plans and subsequently the IDPs.

Mr Speaker, your Committee was informed that there were delays in the processing and approval of change of land use beyond the prescribed ninety days and twenty-eight days, respectively. These delays resulted in the prospective developers treating their applications as approved and as permitted by the Urban and Regional Planning Act No.3 of 2015. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the approval process be decentralised from the ministry to the district and the clause in the Urban and Regional Planning Act No.3 of 2015 be amended accordingly.

In addition, Mr Speaker, your Committee observed that local authorities did not service land in terms of providing basic needs inter alia, water and sanitation. Your Committee learnt that this was due to the high prices that were requested by commercial utilities to provide these services, a venture that was not easily achieved by local authorities due to low financial capacity. In view of this, your Committee recommends that local authorities include cost reflective prices to the plots they sell to prospective developers so that it creates order and the proper development of land.

Taking everything into account, Mr Speaker, allow me to place on record your Committee’s gratitude to all the stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions. Your Committee also wishes to thank you, Mr Speaker, and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Shakafuswa: Now, Mr Speaker.

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for permitting me, on behalf of the people of Mandevu, to second the Motion that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs Affairs on the Performance Audit Report on the Management of Urban and Regional Planning in Zambia with the Focus on Land Usage during the Period 2017 to 2021.

Allow me, Mr Speaker, to thank the hon. Member for Mwinilunga who has ably moved the Motion. In seconding the Motion, I will speak about, firstly, the development of the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs), secondly, development in protected areas and, thirdly, weak or poor enforcement by the local authorities.

Mr Speaker, on the development of the IDPs, during the period under review, your Committee learnt that only nine local authorities had approved the IDPs. We were gratified, during the submissions, to learn that this number had increased to twenty-seven. We learnt that seventy-eight local authorities were developing the IDPs and they were at different stages. However, eleven local authorities had not yet started working on the IDPs. Financial resources have been a major impediment to developing the IDPs and your Committee recommends that the Government must allocate enough resources to the local authorities that have not developed the IDPs.

Mr Speaker, on development in protected areas or forest reserves, your Committee observed that the forest reserves countrywide had been encroached upon. This points to the lack of the IDPs and planning agreements as prescribed in the Urban and Regional Planning Act No. 3 of 2015.

Mr Speaker, your Committee learnt that in rural areas, settlers do not know the boundaries of forest reserves hence, it recommends that local authorities must engage traditional leaders and come up with planning agreements so that areas where to put the settlers and where to carry out development can be identified. This will safeguard the protected areas.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, I wish to comment on poor and weak enforcements by local authorities. Local authorities in Zambia continue, with dismay, to observe developers or illegal encroachers develop structures up to completion and only want to move in to demolish finished houses. During submissions, some local authorities talked about political interference and others submitted that they would like to go and enforce the law but when they ask the officers from the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security to beef up the operations, they always want to be paid allowances yet the work is supposed to done during normal working hours. So, we urge the Government, through the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, to send police officers to escort council officers, to beef up operations during normal working hours without allowances. We also urge the Government, through the Local Government Service Commission, to employ more building inspectors so that illegal buildings can be averted at inception.

Mr Speaker, I wish to end by thanking all the witnesses, your Office and the Office of the Clerk for the invaluable support that was given to your Committee.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important report.

Mr Speaker, I will restrict my debate to issues around occupancy licences, which I believe provide sufficient revenue for municipalities, and I will contrast that with the National Land Titling Programme.

Mr Speaker, the 2021 World Population Review tells us that Zambia is the third most urbanised country in Southern Africa. The rate of urbanisation is placed at 4.23 per cent. Urbanisation has left municipalities heavily constrained technically as well as financially, and 70 per cent of the urban population resides in informal settlements. In the past, informal settlements were deemed illegal and municipalities would move in to demolish structures. With the passage of time, we have seen more progressive and inclusive approaches to illegal settlements or unplanned for settlements or informal settlements. We have seen informal settlements being upgraded in line with global agendas and protocols such as the Sustainable Goal No. 11 of making cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.

Mr Speaker, I wish to refer to the Urban and Regional Planning Act of 2015. Local authorities have the mandate to upgrade informal settlements and residents in unplanned settlements are eligible to apply for occupancy licences for a tenure of thirty years. However, occupancy licences are restricted to the property itself and not the land. This is in contrast with the National Land Titling Programme which seeks to issue 14 million title deeds by 2027 and a single tenure document issuance.

Mr Speaker, we have seen title deeds being offered to people in informal settlements who already have occupancy licences. Now, the difference between an occupancy licence and a title deed is that when I have an occupancy licence, I have a legal right to the property for a period of thirty years. In contrast, when I have a title deed, I have a legal right to the property and the land surrounding this property. Further, when I have an occupancy licence, I have the right to the property, but the land surrounding it is under the jurisdiction of the municipality or the council. Going forward, this will create serious problems when we will have to compensate those with title deeds, when local municipalities will want to develop the informal or unplanned for settlements.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, through municipalities, is the legal custodian of spatial planning in Zambia. This mandate is being indirectly taken away from the ministry through the National Land Titling Programme, and we call for harmonisation between the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development and the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources.

Mr Speaker, the issuance of title deeds to people already possessing title deeds and occupancy licences also presents a very big threat in that some of the title deeds could have been surrendered to financial lending institutions as collateral for mortgages and loans. However, if this is not addressed, some people will use new title deeds and dupe financial institutions. At the end of the day, financial institutions and the banks will lose out on their investment because collateral would have been tampered with.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, we call for occupancy licences which provide adequate revenue for municipalities to be recognised alongside title deeds. This co-existence will a form a basis of the continuum of land rights.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I wish to support the report.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for according me this opportunity to add my voice on behalf of the people of Chama North on the report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs Affairs on the issue of land administration in this country.

Mr Speaker, the efficient and effective administration of land is a catalyst for meaningful development. We have been independent for more than fifty-eight years now, but the way our land is being administered leaves a lot to be desired. Even the previous speakers noted how chaotic land administration has been addressed the past years, and that is why there are many illegal settlements. Lusaka was planned at the time there were few people, and we did not anticipate that the population of Zambia would increase in future. Indeed, we need radical reforms in the administration of land if we are to address some of the short comings.

Mr Speaker, it is sad that very few local authorities have actually formulated the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs). I think the onus is on the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to ensure that all the local authorities comply with the requirements. Your Committee noted that the lack of resources has hindered local authorities from developing the IDPs.

Mr Speaker, sometime back, local authorities were financially sound and people preferred to be employed by them rather than companies like Zamtel and ZESCO Limited, but what has happened? It is a fact that some revenue areas were removed from local authorities. For example, water utilities and motor vehicle licensing were under local authorities, but all these resources of revenue were removed from there. So, the Government must put in place measures to ensure that the revenue base for local authorities is broadened. The Equalisation Fund is not enough. From the Equalisation Fund, you have to pay salaries and there are so many competing needs. So, I call upon the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that we increase the Equalisation Fund so that local authorities are able to address some of their challenges.

Mr Speaker, your Committee said that there is a need for local authorities to charge cost reflective prices for plots, and I agree with this, but we must also be mindful that land is not a privilege. Accessing land should not be a privilege, but a right, and even the poor people or the vulnerable people are supposed to access land. So, we cannot say let us make it across the board for all the plots to be cost reflective. I feel we will be disadvantaging our people, especially the vulnerable in society.

Mr Speaker, councils have been allocating plots that are not serviced, which is very unfortunate, and the report says this is because ZESCO Limited and water utilities charge very high collection fees. I appeal to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to engage relevant ministries such as the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation and the Ministry of Energy so that local authorities can negotiate with ZESCO Limited and water utilities for the tariffs to be manageable to ensure that they service the plots before selling them to our people.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, it is sad that it takes so many months for a simple thing like the change of land use to be done because the hon. Minister is the one who approves this. However, we are talking about decentralisation. If decentralisation is to make any sense, – I think local authorities have the capacity to do such things. The change of land use should be done at the local authority level instead of the approval being done in Lusaka.

With those few words, Mr Speaker, I support the adoption of this report.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Mr Speaker, allow me to talk about the participation of traditional leaders in local governance.

Mr Speaker, firstly, let me take the position ab initio that I support this report. I wish to advise the ministry responsible for repealing the two Chapters or Acts that have been highlighted in this report, that is the Chiefs Act, which is Chapter 287 of the Laws of Zambia, and the Registration and Development of Villages Act, which is Chapter 289 of the laws of this country, to do so. Once these Acts are repealed, traditional leaders will get involved in running local Governments. So, I believe that once this is done, traditional leaders will participate fully in running local Governments without people thinking they are doing that because they are politically affiliated.

Mr Speaker, once traditional leaders are involved in running local authorities, this will reduce urban influx because communities will understand exactly what is involved in their constituencies or areas. People will now have first-hand information of the projects that will be done. Further, once the Acts concerning traditional leaders are repealed, they will be in line with the Decentralisation Policy, and this will enable the locals decide what they want done in their respective constituencies.

Mr Speaker, you will agree with me that currently, the chiefs or traditional leaders are involved in the planning of projects but not all of them are involved. You will find that in areas where there are four or five chiefs, only two are allowed to participate in the planning of projects on a daily basis and the others may not be aware of those projects. So, it becomes very difficult for those who are not part of the planning to sensitise the people they lead on what the Government intends to do in their constituencies or areas. The intention to repeal the two Chapters I referred to is a plus to all citizens because they will have information and they will know exactly what the Government intends to do for them.

Further, Mr Speaker, it is also important to note that once local authorities are given an opportunity to work with traditional leaders, it will be easy for them to access land in areas where some projects ought to be done. What is obtaining now is that it is difficult for local authorities to approach traditional leaders when they want to implement some projects because traditional leaders do not know exactly what is happening in their areas. Further, it is difficult for the local authorities to approach the traditional leaders because they do not seem to understand the importance of the projects that are to be undertaken within their areas.

Mr Speaker, it is important to note that the costs that the local Governments incur when they go around sensitising the locals will actually be reduced when traditional leaders are included in all the meetings done at the local authority. That will enable the flow of information from the authority to the least person in the community as the people in authority together with the traditional leaders will give out information at once. So, I strongly support this report because of your Committee’s recommendation for local authorities and traditional leaders to collaborate. When they do that, development will be seen every day and everywhere, and people will get first-hand information on what is happening in their local authorities.

With those few words, I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Mbabala, to comment on the report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs Affairs on the development and review of the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs).

Mr Speaker, planning is the basis of everything in life and in the development of this nation. Therefore, without planning, any road will lead you anywhere and you may not know when you arrive. It is common knowledge, and as reviewed in this report, that there some lacunas in our laws or there is a missing alignment in the legal framework in line with the questions that were given to this Committee, whose report was ably presented by Hon. Samakayi, the Member for Mwinilunga, and seconded by Hon. Shakafuswa, the Member for Mandevu; well done colleagues.

Mr Speaker, the legal framework shows that we have a serious challenge understanding what takes precedence between the Urban and Regional Planning Act of 2015 and the National Planning and Budgeting Act No.1 of 2020 in that one talks about developing national planning frameworks and provincial regional integrated plans and the like, while the other produces the national, provincial and district development plans up to the ward level. That is what led us to having the Ward Development Committees (WDCs), the District Development Committees (DDCs) and the Provincial Development Committees (PDCs) where we are supposed to be invited as Members of Parliament to participate in the development process. Therefore, the ministry needs to bring an alignment, and I ride on the comments by my colleague, the hon. Member for Namwala, on the Chiefs Act and the Registration and Development of Villages Act.

Mr Speaker, these Acts need to be aligned for us to get quality out of land use. If we do not align these various pieces of legislation, we will continue having challenges here and there. For example, the challenge of funding the IDPs is attributed to the fact that the National Planning and Budgeting Act seems to take more precedence in that the structures which are outlined in that Act are funded whereas those outlined in the Urban and Regional Planning Act are not funded. Therefore, we need to align these pieces of legislation so that they speak to the same thing and they help us more so now that we have the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which is a big game changer, thanks to His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema.

Mr Speaker, the CDF needs to be aligned to the ward development plans in line with the United Party for National Development (UPND) manifesto as well as the campaign promises that we as politicians make to communities. Communities are looking forward to campaign promises being implemented in their areas. They are asking for bridges as has been demonstrated in my constituency, Mbabala. People in Pinda and Muyanda want bridges to be worked on because we campaigned based on them, and that must be reflected in the ward development plans. Those aspirations must also be included in the district development plans, the provincial development plans, and finally, the national plans so that the projects can be budgeted for in the National Budget and implemented in order for Zambia to achieve the Agenda 2063, which is the African agenda to develop an urbanised Africa.

We are seeing an urbanised Africa, Mr Speaker. When you move around our constituencies, you will see huge populations in areas that were previously not fully inhabited. Macha, Mbabala, Mapanza, Maunza, Sikabanze, and Silukwiya are becoming urban centres. As such, councils need to be fully capacitated with adequate funds for them to start planning for these places to become fully urbanised centres with services. As outlined by my colleague, we need to see to it that we plan for public health, water reticulation, education, and other services that form an urban setting. Therefore, this can only happen if local authorities have a good income base such as the Equalisation Fund and other sources of funding. We also need to align the law so that the projects in the communities can be funded according to the development chain I outlined.

Mr Speaker, we also call for full capacity building of the planning and engineering departments of local authorities to ensure that they have the manpower for them to deliver the plans. Often times, what delays some instructions, according to the report, is the lack of manpower and the full entitlement of an authority being a planning authority. Without full manpower, some authorities cannot become planning authorities. We also need to ensure that the professionals are members of, for example, the Zambia Institute of Planners and other engineering institutes to ensure that they deliver quality services to their communities.

Mr Speaker, with these remarks, I commend the Committee and I support the report.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I know more people would like to debate, but time is against us. We have a lot of work on our hands.

The Acting Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, will respond.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha) (on behalf of the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo)): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to issue an intervention statement on behalf of the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Mr Speaker, allow me to express my gratitude for this opportunity to speak on the Performance Audit Report of the Auditor-General on the Management of Urban and Regional Planning in Zambia. I also wish to thank the Committee on Local Government, Housing and Chiefs Affairs for the work done. Additionally, allow me to express my gratitude to the hon. Members of Parliament who debated the Motion to adopt this report among them Hon. Samakayi as the mover, Hon. Shakafuswa as the seconder, Hon. Sunday Chanda, Hon. Mtayachalo, Hon. Mapani and Hon. Munsanje.

Mr Speaker, this report highlights important issues in our quest for organised and decent human settlements. Among the issues highlighted in the report are:

Development and Approval of the National Urbanisation Policy

Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, agrees with the recommendations of your Committee to expedite the development and implementation of the National Urbanisation Policy and the National Planning Framework. We are committed to ensuring that both policy documents are prepared and launched soon.

Development of Urban and Regional Planning regulations

Mr Speaker, we are very grateful to your Committee for highlighting the challenges that were experienced in the development of the urban and regional planning regulations. However, I wish to assure the House that we are on course with the finalisation of this activity. Progress on the development of land use classes and exempted development classes regulations has advanced. Soon rather than later, the regulations will be issued.

Development of the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs)

Mr Speaker, we take note of the challenges highlighted by your Committee regarding the development of the IDPs. The Government has put in place measures to ensure all districts complete their IDPs as soon as possible. For instance, it has supported eighteen rural councils with funds to assist in developing their IDPs. We have also increased capacity at the provincial level to support district teams as they prepare their IDPs.

The House may note, Mr Speaker, that on 21^st June, 2023, we were in Solwezi to launch eleven IDPs for districts in the North-Western Province barely a few weeks after launching five IDPs on the Copperbelt. Further, the ministry recently approved seven IDPs for districts in the Southern Province, which we hope to launch sometime in August this year.

Mr Speaker, I also take note of the recommendation for increased allocation of more resources towards the formulation and implementation of the IDPs. The ministry is working with various co-operating partners to ensure increased financing for the development of the IDPs. Further, the report alluded to the need to include more stakeholders in the formulation of the IDPs. I wish to assure this House that the process of developing the IDPs is very elaborate and consultative. No key stakeholders will be left out of the consultations.

Development of Protected Areas-Forest Reserves

Mr Speaker, the Government appreciates the recommendation of your Committee to continue sensitising traditional authorities on the importance of the IDPs and planning agreements, which will, in turn, help prevent encroachment of forests. The Government, through the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, has been sensitising traditional leaders on planning agreements and will continue to do so.

Provision of Land Development Services

Mr Speaker, your Committee observed that one of the reasons for the failure of local authorities to provide serviced plots was limited resources. Therefore, I agree with its recommendation, as well as the debate of Hon. Mtayachalo, that local authorities must include a cost reflective price to the land they sell to enable them provide the required amenities before it is offered to the general public.

Application of Change of Land Use

Mr Speaker, as observed by your Committee in the report, the approval for land use change is currently centralised. This will in due course be decentralised in line with the overall move to devolve some Central Government functions to the local authorities. However, this will require amending the necessary legal framework.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I wish to reassure this august House that the Government is committed to facilitating sustainable settlements that provide opportunities for better living standards for all our citizens.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Samakayi: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Chanda, Hon. Mtayachalo, Hon. Mapani and Hon. Munsanje who have debated quite ably on this important subject on the development of our country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT (Amendment) BILL, 2023

(Debate resumed)

The Minister of Green Economy and Environment (Eng. Nzovu): Mr Speaker, the Environmental Management Act was enacted in 2011 to among others provide for integrated environmental management, provide for protection and conservation of the environment and to provide for the sustainable management and use of natural resources. At the time of its enactment, the Act was relevant to the times and was a progressive law in the protection of the environment. However, over the years, the Act has fallen behind in many aspects of environmental management. This may be attributed to the passage of time and the emergence of new environmental challenges such as the triple planetary crisis of climate change, biodiversity loss and pollution, including plastic and e-waste pollution. There is, therefore, an urgent need to amend the Act to address the identified gaps and weakness and further provide mechanisms to strengthen the implementation of the policy on environment management.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment has identified six significant reasons for strengthening the Environmental Management Act as follows:

1. the enactment of the Solid Waste Regulation and Management Act No. 20 of 2018 took over the domestic waste management function that initially was with the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) under the Environmental Management Act and it is now with the local authorities. It has now because necessary to harmonise the two Acts;
2. the Environmental Management Act does not provide for registration of pesticides and toxic substances, despite the noticed increase in the abuse of chemicals in the country by way of suicides and other abuses and, therefore, there is a need to amend the Act to provide for registration of pesticides;
3. with the creation of the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, the New Dawn Government has embarked on a path of ensuring that the green growth pathways are mainstreamed in Zambia’s economy. Hence, there is a need to amend the Environmental Management Act to reflect the tenets of a green economy;
4. following Zambia’s ratification of the 2021 Kigali Amendment to the Montreal Protocol on the protection of the ozone layer, there is a need to domesticate the said amendment as it advocates for the phasing out of certain gasses that contribute towards climate change;
5. the New Dawn Government has noted that the penalties imposed on offenders of the Environmental Management Act by our courts are very small and not punitive enough, leading to the rampant increase in offenders including repeat offenders. In view of this, there is a need to amend the Environmental Management Act to provide for minimum penalties, which can be imposed by the courts to arrest the impunity observed so far; and
6. there is an urgent need to regulate the environmental consultants in order to ensure quality environment impact assessment reports and timely issuance of approvals.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I wish to sincerely thank Members of your distinguished Committee for the good work they did of scrutinising the Bill and making critical recommendations. I also thank our beloved and alert environmentalists and other stakeholders for actively participating in the consultative process.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Mr Speaker, in accordance with the terms of reference set out in Standing Orders No. 197 (d) and No. 198 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, the Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism was tasked to scrutinise the Environmental Management (Amendment) Bill No. 6 of 2023 for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly referred to it by the House on Tuesday, 21^st March, 2023.

Mr Speaker, in carrying out this important task, your Committee interacted with various stakeholders who provided both written and oral submissions. As hon. Members may be aware, the Bill intends to amend the Environmental Management Act No. 12 of 2011 so as to revise the functions of the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA), harmonise the provisions relating to solid waste management with the Solid Waste Regulation and Management Act No. 20 of 2018, domesticate the Kigali Amendment to the Montreal Protocol on substances that deplete the ozone layer, provide for the registration of pesticides or toxic substances and revise the provision on summary imposition of penalties.

Mr Speaker, I wish to state from the outset that all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee supported the Bill. They, however, expressed the need to effect a few amendments as indicated in the report. Your Committee equally supports the Bill, but proposes that a few amendments be made to it.

Mr Speaker, since the hon. Members of this august House had the opportunity to read your Committee’s report, allow me to highlight a few pertinent issues.

Mr Speaker, the first issue relates to the provision of empowering the board to delegate to the Director-General any of its functions under the Act. Your Committee is of the view that this does not reflect rules of good governance and, therefore, recommends that the law should clearly state the kind of functions which the board may delegate to the Director-General.

Mr Speaker, another similar matter of concern is the provision in the Bill to the effect that in exemption of the provision in Section 12(a), the Director-General may delegate any of his/her functions under the Act to any other staff of the agency that he/she considers necessary. Your Committee is of the view that the delegation of functions in this case should not just be to any other staff hence the law should state clearly the category of staff to whom such functions can be delegated.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, most stakeholders who appeared before your Committee lamented over the removal of key ministries from the board such as the ministries responsible for local government, water development, national planning, agriculture and health, despite their importance in matters relating to the environment. In this regard, your Committee recommends that a sub-committee of the board that will enable the experts from other ministries to contribute positively be created.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, allow me to place on record the gratitude of your Committee to all the stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions. Your Committee also wishes to thank you, Mr Speaker, for your guidance and the Clerk of the National Assembly and his staff for the support services rendered to it throughout its deliberations.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, in supporting this Bill, I declare interest that the people of Kanchibiya Constituency are interested in environmental matters. So, the Environmental Management (Amendment) Bill is critical to some of our aspirations and it is our prayer that one or two of the submissions we are going to make will be factored into this Bill or the Bill will speak to some of our aspirations.

Mr Speaker, firstly, while the Bill focuses on responding to the gaps existing in the current law, our submission is that it also ought to respond to the opportunities that come with a green economy. We are aware that a green economy is gold on its own and, in this regard, we would want to see a Bill or a law that is forward-looking to unlock this sector for those of us in rural areas who are custodians of forests. We also want the Bill to provide an opportunity for us to understand what the value of our carbon footprint is as a country and on a continuous basis, and the dividends we are drawing from this resource.

Mr Speaker, secondly, we would want to see that the law speaks to local participation as well as beneficiation to rural communities such as the one I represent and the country at large.

Thirdly, Mr Speaker, and probably my last submission, is that the law ought to bring us to a point where we advocate for debt-for-nature swaps as a means of reducing debt as well as promoting the conservation of nature.

Mr Speaker, debt-for-nature swaps are a sovereign debt restructuring tool and this would come as part of the package to what the Government is working on right now. So, our submission is that the Bill should be able to package the environment as a resource and allow us to get to the point where we can start talking about the debt-for-nature swaps as a country. The debt-for-nature swaps allows countries to erase their debt in exchange for nature and climate change conservation programmes such as decarbonising the economy and protecting the forests.

Mr Speaker, what is the value of telling our people in Kanchibiya that they can no longer, for example, cut down trees, when we are not giving them a viable alternative? So, what we are saying is that forests are a resource and we should not just conserve the environment, but we also want to tap into the economic opportunities that come with this resource. So, for a forward-looking Bill, this is what we are demanding for from the ministry. On that regard, I support this Bill to the extent that it should not only respond to the gaps, but it should also unlock economic opportunities for our people especially those who come from rural areas.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Eng. Nzovu: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank your Committee for the job well done. It took time to scrutinise the Bill comprehensively and all its submissions will be taken into account. I assure the hon. Member for Kanchibiya that one of the submissions is that we should ensure that the green economy is mainstreamed in the national economy. I think this is one important addition.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members will realise that other progressive ideas in this amendment Bill include ensuring that consultancy for various projects is regulated to ensure that quality reports are chained out. In the new regulations, we will ensure that the fees for environmental impact assessments are reduced and that the penalties are increased.

Mr Speaker, your Committee’s concern relating to the provision of empowering the board to delegate to the Director-General any of its functions is an important submission and that will be looked into. On the inclusion of ministries responsible for local Government, water resources, energy and others, I wish to inform the House that the process for coming up with environmental impact assessments is very consultative, and the Acts are considered. The law also allows ZEMA to form several committees and different sectors are represented. So, we do not see any gap at all.

Mr Speaker, having not received a lot of opposition from hon. Members, I can only thank them for supporting the enactment of this Bill.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 11^th July, 2023.

THE ZAMBIA INSTITUTE OF VALUATION SURVEYORS BILL, 2023

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, I wish to, first and foremost, express gratitude to your Committee for facilitating wide consultation with stakeholders on the Bill, and the transparent manner in which the Bill has been reviewed. My ministry took keen interest in the deliberations of your Committee and I congratulate it on a job well done. I further wish to thank all stakeholders who made contributions to the Bill before and during your Committee’s hearings.

Mr Speaker, the Zambia Institute of Valuation Surveyors Bill No. 9 of 2023 aims to replace the existing Valuation Surveyors Act Cap. 207 of the Laws of Zambia. The current Act is an old law of 1976, which does not address the current trends in the practice of valuation surveying in Zambia and around the globe. The changing dynamics in training and practice of valuation surveying coupled with the massive developments in the property market and environments over the years have made it necessary and urgent that the existing law be repealed and replaced in order to respond to the changes.

Mr Speaker, the objects of the Bill are to inter alia:

1. provide for the registration of valuation surveyors and regulate their practice and professional conduct;
2. continue with the existence of the Valuation Surveyors Registration Board and re-name it as the Zambia Institute of Valuation Surveyors and re-define its functions;
3. repeal and replace the Valuation Surveyors Act; and
4. provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, the Bill provides adequately for the objectives set forth and I accordingly pray that it shall receive support from the hon. Members of this House.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mubika rose.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Ema Chair aya!

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The House is very happy to –

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Former Minister!

Mr Mubika (Shangombo): Mr Speaker, the Committee on Transport, Works and Supply was tasked to scrutinise the Zambia Institute of Valuation Surveyors Bill No. 9 of 2023 for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly. In order to acquaint itself with the ramifications of the Bill, your Committee sought both written and oral submissions from various stakeholders, the list of which is at Appendix I of this report.

Mr Speaker, from the outset, I wish to put on record that your Committee is in support of this Bill. As hon. Members may be aware, the Bill aims to repeal and replace the Valuation Surveyors Act, Chapter 207 of the Laws of Zambia, that was enacted in 1976 then amended in 1979 and 1994. From this background, it is worth noting that this law has been guiding the operations of the valuation profession in Zambia without being repealed for a long time. Overtime, changes in the valuation profession and other related fields as well as general socio-economic development have evolved and this legislation will bring this in tandem with modern practices in the evaluation surveyors’ practice.

At this juncture, Mr Speaker, allow me to acquaint the House with some of the concerns raised by some stakeholders who your Committee agrees with in relation to the proposed Bill.

Mr Speaker, regarding Clause 2, stakeholders observed that this Bill only focused on valuation of real estate, land, property and facility management. In view of this, they proposed that there was need to revise the definition of ‘valuation surveying’ to include ‘valuation of movable assets such as motor vehicles, plants and office furniture.’

Under Clause 8(2)(c), Mr Speaker, your Committee observed that the Bill prescribes that the two Vice-Presidents for the institute will be drawn from southern and northern regions which might cause problems should there be no qualified persons from these two regions. Your Committee in agreeing with the stakeholders recommends that the Bill should only indicate that there will be two Vice-Presidents and the details of which regions they are picked from should be left in the institute’s constitution. This will eliminate the challenges of amending the Act in the event that membership of the institute grows and confining the positions of Vice-Presidents to southern and northern regions becomes unrepresentative of the expectations of the members of the institute.

Mr Speaker, your Committee notes that Clause 22 provides for the requirement for a practicing certificate to be put in a conspicuous place at the place of practice by valuation surveyors without stating the sanction for failing to do so. In order to protect the public and other category of clients from impersonators, your Committee recommends that a sub-section be included to indicate penalties for failing to display a practicing certificate in a conspicuous place by registered surveyors.

As I conclude, Mr Speaker, allow me to put on record that your Committee is confident that the proposed Bill will enhance visibility of the profession and improve standardised valuation and property pricing which is critical in determining the ramification of repealing the Valuation Surveyors Act, Chapter 207 of the Laws of Zambia. Your Committee is, therefore, hopeful that the Bill will receive the support from the House.

Mr Speaker, allow me to thank you for your guidance throughout your Committee’s deliberations on the Bill. I also wish to pay tribute to all the stakeholders who interacted with your Committee. Lastly, I wish to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the services rendered to your Committee during its deliberations.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, let me begin by thanking your Committee for this good report. Nevertheless, I have a few comments to make on this Bill. Valuation surveyors need to improve on how, for example, the charge fees, and I have seen that the Bill is addressing that.

Mr Speaker, the valuation profession is one that is inextricably linked to the financial system of any country. When a country does not have a thriving valuation profession, it simply indicates that the economic activity of that country is stunted. I say so because there is no financial institution in any country in the world that would give out capital without risk assessment in terms of knowing, in the event of default, how that financial institution will be protected and this is the work that the valuators do.

We have a challenge, Mr Speaker, and if possible, we are likely to move amendments to this Bill. I expected this Bill to include the repeal of the Estate Agents Act so that it takes care of the operations of the Zambia Institute of Estate Agents. You can imagine how many people have been affected in this country because of unscrupulous estate agents, and this has been going on. The Act has not defined the minimum qualifications for one to practice as an estate agent, yet Zambians are losing millions, if not thousands, of their hard-earned money to street agents. There is no profession in the world that is regulated like a co-operative. Estate agency is a profession and our universities, particularly the Copperbelt University (CBU), churn out enough qualified people every year who can actually handle these matters.

Mr Speaker, the Bill also needs to insert the allowable value disparity in terms of valuation, so that members of the public are protected. It is not a good thing for two valuators to come up with different values. For example, one valuator will say the value of a certain property is K10 million but another one will say its K2 million. So, there is a need to protect citizens from such disparities through the law. Valuators need to research and compare rates in an area before they attach a value to a property. Once this is done and enshrined in the law, there will be professionalism and seriousness when valuating both fixed and movable assets. Should the disparity be so large or influenced, this should be subjected to judicial review because these things happen. When you are in the courts of law, one valuator will present a case of a property with the value of K8 million or K10 million, but another valuator will say its value is K4 million. Such a disparity is large and, therefore, it should be curtailed in this legislation.

Mr Speaker, otherwise, your Committee’s report is spot-on and it is up to the valuators out there to adhere to the law. When the House allows this Bill to pass the second reading stage, we should consider moving amendments to ensure that the Zambia Institute of Estate Agents is also under the Zambia Institute of Valuation Surveyors, so that professionals can actually run the sector of real estate agents.

Mr Speaker, valuation is attached to estate agency. We need to protect buyers of land and property. There is a lot of misrepresentation when estate agents are advertising a property. They will tell you certain salient features which are not necessarily attached to the property. Some people are sold property in water-logged areas during the dry season and professionals should be able to explain the attributes. This can only happen if the Estate Agents Act, which stands on its own, is repealed and its contents are included into the Zambia Institute of Valuation Surveyors Bill so that the public is protected.

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I wish to put on record that I support this Bill, but I urge the mover and sponsors of this Bill to make amendments at the third reading stage.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, for giving me a slot to make a few comments on the proposed amendment of the Bill under consideration, which is the Zambia Institute of Valuation Surveyors Bill.

Mr Speaker, I adopt part of Hon. Mung’andu’s debate as my own. Indeed, there is a nexus between estate agents and the valuators’ work, which is done by the surveyors because estate agents, who are the merchants in the property market, depend on the value that is determined by the surveyors. Therefore, it is important that we have professionals with integrity in this industry because most of the instruments that depend on the valuation of property are very critical.

Mr Speaker, let me give a classic example of the people in the construction industry. When they want to access certain instruments to facility their business, such as advance payment bonds or performance bonds, they normally depend on the property value, which they then put up with the financial institutions, or be it insurance, that are to give out those instruments. Now you can imagine if there are some unscrupulous activities where property is undervalued and at the point the client is trying to cash in a bond, that is when he finds that the value of the advance payment bond is not tallying with the actual value of the property that was put to cover up the issuance of such instruments. So, it is important that we have professionals of integrity in this sector.

Mr Speaker, I support your Committee’s recommendation that Clause 2, which only focuses on valuation of real estate, land, property and facility management, should include movable assets because financial institutions are now able to accept movable assets to cover up for facilities when people want to access financial facilities in different forms. So, I support this proposal because any property that is used for the purpose of accessing a facility must be genuine.

Mr Speaker, we also need to deal with the people who masquerade as agents of property and overstate the value, thereby swindling unsuspecting clients their money. We need to make sure that the merchants of property and the surveyors who determine the value speak to each other properly. Therefore, there is a need for the hon. Minister to ensure that the Act that covers the estate agents is equally aligned to the amendments that are being proposed in this Bill.

Mr Speaker, the issue that has been raised of valuation surveyors displaying their practicing certificate is critical. How do you identify a real professional from one masquerading on the market? It is important that sanctions are spelt out in the law when someone does not display his/her practicing certificate. You are able to know that a facility is a medical facility because its certification is displayed. So, we cannot allow this sensitive industry to be managed by people who cannot be identified.

Mr Speaker, some people who claim to be surveyors have the propensity to aver property for selfish motives. One unsuspecting client will be given different rates for a plot size of forty by forty, for example, in Chalala. You will find the same size of plot costing K250,000 and another person will pay K500,000 for the same property. So, we need to help our citizens so they are not swindled by ensuring that professional surveyors are identified and they are regulated by the law. That way, when citizens are swindled, they will have recourse to take those professionals to task. So, we support the proposals made by your Committee in ensuring that this Bill is amended. Indeed, it is outdated and times have evolved. The property market is changing and so is the property.

Mr Speaker, we also want the valuation surveyors to work with other professions like engineers and architects to ensure that property is developed in designated places, in a co-ordinated manner. They should also work with the city planners. Lusaka is developing, but how do you rate the road side property in a high-density area like Kalingalinga? If we are to upgrade such a place, there must be a holistic plan so that the value of property is not distorted in an area like that. So, a lot needs to be done. As people’s representatives, we must take keen interest in the critical professions which are meant to add value to people’s lives. Earlier on, we heard people talk about certification of property. You cannot issue title deeds in certain areas; high density areas. So, how do you rate the property? All these matters need critical introspection, and the hon. Minister should ensure that he brings them on board as we revise the law.

With these few remarks, Mr Speaker, I wish to support the report of your Committee and the proposals it made to amend the Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Mr Speaker, may I take the opportunity to, first and foremost, thank the hon. Members who debated, who include the Chairperson of the Committee, the hon. Member for Shangombo, the hon. Member for Chama South and the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

Mr Speaker, let me clear one or two issues that arose during the general debate.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of estate agents, we appreciate the submissions made by the hon. Members. However, I would like to point out, for the interest of the general public out there, that the two professions, if I may call them that, are distinct. The functions that are expected to be undertaken by estate agents according to the law and those of valuation surveyors are completely separate. Therefore, we need to justify why it is necessary to merge the two.

Let me give context to what I am saying, Mr Speaker. The Estate Agents General Regulations Statutory Instrument No. 3 of 2016 defines estate agency in the following terms. Estates agency means the process of selling, letting or managing real property including negotiating the sale price or rental value of real property on behalf of the client. That is completely different from the work that valuation surveyors do which is more technical, based on the professional qualifications they obtain. So, estate agents and valuation surveyors are distinct. Estate agents assist in the sale process of real property and, quite distinctly, valuation surveyors do a lot more, including coming up with Bill of Quantities (BoQs) for those carrying out construction projects. So, much as the argument has been put forward, it has to be given a real think as to whether that will be beneficial to the two professions for there to be merger of the Acts.

Mr Speaker, in terms of the fears that have been raised, again, in relation to estate agents and the conduct of their duties, the Estate Agent Act No. 21 of 2000 provides various safe guards on behalf of those who may need or use the profession of estate agents. Again, this should not mar the discussion here with regard to the current Bill under consideration. There was a concern that the unsuspecting public would be subject to swindling and other matters of that nature. I just want to point out that in the Estate Agents Act, which is being compared to the current Bill, there are clear provisions which are aimed at protecting the general public, for example, the provisions of the second schedule to that Act which constitutes a code of conduct for estate agents. We have penalties for offences that are created under that Act. We have a Compensation Fund that is created under that Act and a specific provision that sets out how clients’ funds are to be managed and, of course, professional conduct and discipline provisions in part five of that Act.

Mr Speaker, in short, one cannot bring the provisions of the Estate Agents Act and use that as a basis upon which to argue that the repeal and replacement that is proposed in the Bill should not take place. In any event, the Estate Agent Act has more than sufficient provisions to protect the general public likewise in the current Bill. So, it is a matter of enforcement rather than a matter of saying what the law should or should not contain. What I am saying is that, quite clearly, there is justification for the Bill to be enacted into law so as to provide a further arm of regulation for those who are involved in the valuation of property.

Mr Speaker, I, therefore, humbly urge the hon. Members in the House this afternoon to support the Bill and allow for it to be read a second time.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

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MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON CABINET AFFAIRS

(Debate resumed)

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, when the House adjourned yesterday, I was commenting on the report of the Committee on Cabinet Affairs ably moved by Hon. Lubusha and seconded by Madam Chrizoster Phiri. I mentioned that Monitoring and Evaluation (M&E) is a management tool that helps us summarise the results of a programme. I stated that there is a need to utilise institutes such as the Zambia Association of Monitoring and Evaluation (ZAMAE) as well as the Development Valuation Association here at Parliament that can help this country set up good standards of monitoring and evaluation in our line ministries and in the Government.

Mr Speaker, this morning, we were talking about planning. We need to set up good baselines for us to be able to come up with good monitoring and evaluation frameworks. The frameworks need to have good baselines and clear targets and indicators that are gender sensitive as well as that include the disabled and incorporate the social economic background of the people who are concerned. These frameworks need to be linked to the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) that we are delivering as a country so that we can see a change at national level in comparison to other states.

Mr Speaker, we also need to ensure that our M&E System is embedded in Information Communication Technologies (ICT) so it is easier to track the results and to report them. Therefore, the Smart Zambia Institute needs to be part and parcel of the processes to ensure that we collect and track the results efficiently, report the results, and that all the works in various line ministries are evidence based. The planning and budgeting works at various levels of the country also need to be evidence based to ensure that we get quality results.

Mr Speaker, we talk about rural development. Even us in Mbabala, which is a rural area, want to be part and parcel of the formulation of the M&E Framework of the country and understand what the various line ministries are doing. We have talked about livestock and animal services, water and sanitation, dams and sports facilities. So, we need to have good and quality frameworks that will help us deal with these issues. At national level, we know that the public out there is the best evaluation group because every five years, it carries out an evaluation.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member! Your time is up.

Mr Munsanje: I support the report.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Kakubo): Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to thank the Committee on Cabinet Affairs for producing and tabling to this House, the implementation process of the National Monitoring and Evaluation Policy for our country. I would also like to note with great appreciation, all the recommendations that your Committee has made to the Government, and for having brought to the Floor and before this House the need for the Government to strengthen the conduct of monitoring and evaluation in this country at all levels. We also note that there is a need for us to strengthen the law so as to compel all administrative levels of Government and institutions to adhere to the provisions of the National Monitoring and Evaluation Policy.

Additionally, Mr Speaker, all non-state actors will be expected to participate in the implementation of monitoring and evaluation programmes, polices and all activities. This will facilitate the effect implementation of the National Monitoring and Evaluation Policy in a co-ordinated and integrated manner countrywide. Further, the Government will enhance the process of sensitisation of both policy and law to all development actors so that the content of the two documents is known and, therefore, effectively implemented.

Mr Speaker, we also note with great appreciation the recommendation of the need for us to review the 2019 Monitoring and Evaluation Policy in order for it to include roles of other players in the national monitoring and evaluation programmes such as hon. Members of Parliament who are here and actors at sub-national levels.

Mr Speaker, on your Committee’s recommendation to institutionalise the conduct of monitoring and evaluation through the creation of monitoring and evaluation units and directorates in Ministries, Provinces and Spending Agencies (MPSAs), hon. Members may wish to note that my ministry has been working closely with the Cabinet Office to ensure that this process is implemented expeditiously. Additionally, the ministry is working with institutions such as the Smart Zambia Institute, the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and other co-operating partners such as the University of Zambia (UNZA) and the Zambia Monitoring and Evaluation Association (ZAMEA) to build capacities in monitoring and evaluation across all Government departments.

Mr Speaker, the Government will put in place measures to compel all MPSAs to use the National Management Information System for planning, monitoring and reporting on implementing the national development plans.

Mr Speaker, in order to ensure active implementation of the National Monitoring and Evaluation Policy, my ministry will develop standard templates for planning, monitoring and reporting which are used by Cluster Advisory Groups, the Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committees (PDCC) and the District Development Co-ordinating Committees (DDCCs) for tracking implementation of all national programmes.

Mr Speaker, I would like to end by thanking your Committee for its report and its recommendations are very useful to the Government in its quest to improve monitoring and evaluation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. In winding up debate on the report of the Committee on Cabinet Affairs on the National Monitoring and Evaluation Policy, allow me to thank the hon. Members who contributed to the debate on the Motion, the hon. Member for Sikongo, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa, the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi, and the hon. Member for Mbabala. I also appreciate the response from the Executive, delivered by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House.

Mr Speaker, allow me to thank you and the support staff for enabling us to deal with the topical issue.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS

(Debate resumed)

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Speaker, before the House adjourned on 5^thJuly, 2023, I had just started commenting on the proposal by your Committee to introduce the Appeals Tribunal in the processing of permits. I do not know if things have changed now, but I said that the committee that scrutinises permits under the Department of Immigration is comprised of members from different security wings and they scrutinise the first stage of the appeals. When an appeal is denied, the applicant is given a chance to appeal to the Director-General. When the applicant is not successful, he/she then appeals to the Office of the Minister.

Now, it is not like the hon. Minister looks at the appeals and makes a decision there and then, but that is done by a committee called the Appeals Committee, which is similar to the Appeals Tribunal which is being proposed. The hon. Minister chairs that committee, which then looks at the merits of the appeal. At that point, the hon. Minister has an opportunity to hear the appellant and the reasons advanced by the Department of Immigration for denying the processing of the permit. The hon. Minister also hears the compelling reasons the applicant puts on the table before he/she uses his/her discretion to tell the Department of Immigration to process the permit or, indeed, to uphold the denial by the department. So, I think the system is robust as it stands and there might not be need to create the Appeals Tribunal which is being proposed because when the hon. Minister is dealing with the appeals, he/she does not sit alone as an individual. There is a panel that advises him/her so that he/she makes an informed discretionary decision on an appeal. I thought I could add my word to that matter.

Mr Speaker, finally, I supported the idea to amend the Bill to provide for border guards who are not yet provided for by law.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.) (on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu)): Mr Speaker, let me thank you for giving me the opportunity to update the House on the progress made towards the implementation of the recommendations highlighted in the Report of the Auditor-General on the Control and Regulation of Illegal Migrants in Zambia for the Period 2017 to 2021. I wish also to thank the Chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs and the Committee Members for the report.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, through the Department of Immigration, has made tremendous strides in controlling and regulating illegal immigrants in Zambia, including addressing the issues highlighted in the report. The report highlighted issues relating to policy and legal framework, funding arrangements, accommodation, information management, staff levels, appeals handling and co-ordination with stakeholders, among others. The House may wish to note that the ministry developed the National Migration Policy which was launched on 2^nd December, 2022, and is being implemented by the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security leading to the implementation –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 11^th July, 2023.

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