Thursday, 6th July, 2023

Thursday, 6^th July, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR MTAYACHALO, HON. MEMBER FOR CHAMA NORTH, ON MR NKOMBO, HON. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND MS TAMBATAMBA, HON. MINISTER OF LABOUR AND SOCIAL SECURITY, ON SOME COUNCILS WORKERS NOT BEING PAID SALARIES

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance is directed at both the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development and the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may proceed.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, thousands of council workers countrywide, have gone without salaries for periods ranging from three to six months. Notable local authorities affected are as follows:

Name of Council No. of Months without salaries

Mongu Municipal Council Six

Lusaka City Council (LCC) Three

Kasama Municipal Council Six

Chinsali Municipal Council Six

Mazabuka Municipal Counci Three

Madam Speaker, this has caused untold suffering among the workers and their families because they are not able to put food on their tables. These workers are also not able to access the 20 per cent partial withdrawal from the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) because local authorities are not able to meet their statutory obligations.

Madam Speaker, local government plays a very critical role in implementing the decentralisation agenda. Are the two hon. Ministers in order to keep quiet without updating the nation on what measures this Government is taking to help workers subjected to such suffering?

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member.

That matter is very important to the council workers. However, that issue started a long time ago because you mentioned the period three to six months ago. Therefore, that matter should have been raised much earlier. So, for this matter, the hon. Member for Chama North will either use maybe, the Vice-President’s Question Time tomorrow or indeed, raise a question that can be addressed as soon as possible.

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON MR MPOSHA, HON. MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, ON LACK OF SANITATION AT UNZA

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance. The matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Madam Speaker, at the University of Zambia (UNZA), our own university, which accommodates all the students from all the constituencies, there is poor sanitation. Even some of us who are here are products of UNZA. We are from UNZA.

Hon. Member: In research?

Mr J. E. Banda: Yes, in research.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, UNZA right now, has poor sanitation. I was there and I noticed that there is poor sanitation. The toilets are destroyed and the sewer system is poor.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, who is also the hon. Member of Parliament for Munali, where UNZA is, in order to keep quiet and sit here whilst our children at UNZA live under poor sanitation? Many of them are complaining about diarrhoea and other diseases. Is he in order to keep quiet?

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much, hon. Member for Petauke Central. The matter is serious. However, it does not qualify as an urgent matter of public importance because this particular matter is not widespread; it is only experienced in one place. Therefore, the hon. Member for Petauke Central should find other means of bringing this matter to the House.

MR KAMPYONGO, HON. MEMBER FOR SHIWANG’ANDU, ON MR MTOLO, HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, ON FARMER INPUT SUPPORT PROGRAMME

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the matter I am trying to raise is directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture, whom I cannot see, or the Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may go ahead.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the matter I am trying to raise borders on food security. I think it is public knowledge now that the prices of the staple food, which is mealie meal, are skyrocketing beyond the reach of many of our Zambian citizens. The only way we can mitigate these skyrocketing prices is through production.

Madam Speaker, your farmers across the country, and not only in Shiwang’andu, those small-scale farmers who depend on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) were comforted when they heard that the Government was going to deliver inputs in good time this year. However, many of them are now gripped with fear because they are not sure whether they will be on this programme, which will then guarantee proper production for the next season.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Agriculture in order, even if he is not around, to remain quiet without coming to update this august House and the nation on the fate of these small-scale farmers who produce the food that we all depend on every farming season?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much. This matter is widespread and I believe it needs the intervention of the hon. Minister. He needs to assure the public, especially the small-scale farmers, whether or not they will be able to access the farming inputs since there are new registers that have been put in place. So, it is very important that farmers are updated so that they know whether they will be registered or not as they prepare for the coming farming season.

Therefore, I direct the hon. Minister of Agriculture to come to this House on Wednesday next week, to give an update on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), especially the register, so that the farmers are aware of whether they qualify to be on the programme or not.

Thank you so much.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

KABANZE AND MBOLE DAMS REHABILITATION

336. Mr Munsanje (Mbabala) asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

when the Government will rehabilitate Kabanze and Mbole dams in Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency; and
what the cause of the delay in rehabilitating the dams is.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation of the Kabanze and Mbole dams in Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency will commence as soon as the feasibility studies are conducted, and the scope of works and costs are established.

Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the cause of the delay in rehabilitating the two dams has been due to inadequate funding to undertake the feasibility studies and the rehabilitation works in the past.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that very wonderful and encouraging answer to our people of Kabanze and surrounding areas. We also have other dams like Sibubomba and Kabanga, which were recently surveyed by a department under his ministry. We are happy that the officers in his department have been going around the area conducting feasibility studies. With the debt restructuring, with the ka something coming in, is he able to add a bit more funds to the construction of dams? I ask this question because we have other dams like the Kabanga Dam which is also cracked. Can he add more funds to increase the number of dams that are going to be rehabilitated and constructed in Mbabala Constituency?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I wish to appreciate the hon. Member’s observation that indeed, our officers are going around various districts of the country to undertake assessments on the state of dams and also, to establish the resources we may need to attach to the rehabilitation exercise.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, …

Hon. Government Members: Commander-in-Chief!

Mr Mposha: … and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces has directed the ministry to tilt the activities towards rainwater harvesting and prepare the adequate infrastructure to harvest the water. In that regard, our first point of call is to ensure that the existing dams are rehabilitated. In addition to that, we should build more new dams.

Madam Speaker, to that effect, this year alone, in 2023, we have planned to construct sixteen more new dams. Going forward into 2024, we envisage that the number will increase. Now, with the good news concerning the debt restructuring, we hope there could be more resources to this sector to cater for what the hon. Member of Parliament is asking for. It is our desire that with what has happened, we should consider increasing the number of dams in the various constituencies. We want to see this happening. I want to assure the hon. Member of Parliament that we have taken note of his desire and that of the people of Mbabala.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, I do not know if I heard the hon. Minister correctly. The question seeks to know the rehabilitation of the existing dams, and in the response, the hon. Minister referred to the ministry carrying out feasibility studies instead of the Bill of Quantity (BoQ) to inform the cost. A feasibility study talks about whether to proceed with the project or not based on the submissions by members of the community. Did the hon. Minister refer to carrying out feasibility studies or the BoQ to estimate how much it would cost to rehabilitate the existing dams? Are they carrying out feasibility studies on the already existing dams?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Pambashe for that question. Clearly, I think he did not get me correctly. I was talking about our officers going around to undertake assessments on the dams with the view of rehabilitating them. Then, I went further to say that in certain areas, we are undertaking feasibility studies because there will be new dams that will be constructed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, it is good to hear that a team of officers is going around to undertake the activities that the hon. Minister has outlined. I want to find out if there is a programme of work they are following so that we may know when they are in Mbabala and when we can expect them in Kafue because we are equally interested in them coming to conduct these assessments in our constituency.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, this was a constituency-based question, but I see that the people of Kafue are sneaking in the additional question. Our officers have been sent to targeted districts where our provincial teams have indicated the existence of some dams which require to be worked on. I will engage the hon. Member for Kafue to see the areas we may need to work on. So, we will have that engagement.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, from the preliminary feasibility study that was undertaken by officers in February, there is a report that seven dams have already breached and twenty-seven were at high risk of breaching. It actually means that by the end of the rainy season, more dams will breach. The hon. Minister has told us that more dams are earmarked for construction. Could he tell us his priority? Is he going to first work on these dams that his office said have breached, those that are at high risk of breaching, including the dams that are in Mbabala Constituency?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Kabwe Central for that supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, I said that we are undertaking an assessment to rehabilitate dams. It is true that quite a number of dams require maintenance because they have lived their days and are not capturing the water as per desired initial plan.

Madam Speaker, in terms of our priority, first of all, we would want to push more money to rehabilitate the dams that are in a dilapidated state. However, alongside that, we are planning to build more dams because people are in certain areas where there are dams that are not in very good state. There are certain areas where the population has grown but people have never had a chance to enjoy facilities of dams. So, we need to strike a balance around the rehabilitation of the already existing dams and also, just to attend to the other needs of our people. As the hon. Member may know, the population has increased and obviously, this has brought new challenges. So, yes, our focus is to push more to rehabilitate the already existing dams. However, alongside that, we will also be building new dams.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, what is the estimated cost for rehabilitating or constructing a new dam in Mbabala? I am asking this question because the people of Dundumwezi are extremely excited about the intentions of the hon. Minister to construct two dams in the area, three decades down the line.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I want to thank my brother, the hon. Member for Dundumwezi for that supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, I am happy to learn that our people in Dundumwezi are excited about our intentions to provide them with dams. I want to assure him that we will not let the people of Dundumwezi and Zambia at large, down. We will ensure that as we push for more resources, we provide this very important infrastructure or facility to the people of Dundumwezi.

Madam Speaker, in terms of the cost of rehabilitating a dam, obviously, it varies depending on the circumstances or level of dilapidation. So, off the cuff, I cannot give the amount required to rehabilitate a dam because circumstances range. Similarly, the cost of constructing a new dam is not fixed. It varies depending on the size of the dam because our focus is to build small, medium and large-sized dams. So, the cost differs. It also depends on where we are going to construct that dam. For example, if we are constructing a dam in Kafue, and the others in Dundumwezi or Lundazi, the cost may vary because of distance.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

PLANS TO CONSTRUCT A PLAY PARK IN MUFUMBWE

337. Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

whether the Government has any plans to construct a play park in Mufumbwe District; and
if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural (Nkombo): Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member once again, for recognising the need for a play park. Play parks are essentially safe places where children can be themselves and express their fun-loving nature, while developing crucial cognitive, physical and emotional skills.

Mr Kamondo: Well-said!

Mr Nkombo: Thank you, hon. Member.

Madam Speaker, in response, I want to affirm that yes, indeed, the Government has a plan to develop a play park in Mufumbwe District, like many other districts. The plan is part of the five-year Integrated Development Plan (IDP) for Mufumbwe, which I launched in Solwezi just about a fortnight ago, on 21^st June, 2023.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, I just want to know whether these play parks are only meant for the people in urban areas only because I have never seen any in the rural parts of Dundumwezi, and in Hon. Kamondo’s constituency. What are the children in the rural areas benefiting, if that is the situation?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I am sure Mufumbwe is rural.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member or Dundumwezi for that question.

Madam Speaker, earlier on, I said that play parks are essential safe areas where children go to develop their social, cognitive as well as physical skills.

Madam Speaker, in my early formative stages, I grew up in a typical village where my father was a headmaster. The whole area was a play park.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: We could go in the fields, Mulonde and in the shrubs. So, the play parks are most identified in concrete jungles. They are special designated areas for children who grow up in urban settings for them to also experience nature. Taking advantage of the question by the hon. Colleague, let me say that we found a situation where play parks in urban areas were being sold off by the people who were there …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: …in preference for concrete jungles. The example that I can give is where the Edgar Chagwa Lungu Mall in Kitwe is, which was a very big play park. In Parklands and Kabwata, they also sold play parks. They made it natural to simply destroy the flora and fauna that was designated for the very purpose which the hon. Minister –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I am raising this point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65(1)(b). The hon. Minister has been responding reasonably well to our hon. Colleague, the Member for Dundumwezi’s question, by telling the hon. Member to encourage the children to play in the bush.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: However, the hon. Minister has decided to veer off his properly written statement by insinuating that – I had a brief stint in the ministry where he is. Now, for him to accuse the Patriotic Front (PF) Government –

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: It is history and, you will be history too. So, do not worry about that.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to make such a blanket allegation without laying proof.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kampyongo: This is what we do here.

Madam Speaker, these hon. Ministers need orientation.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please just concentrate on the point of order.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to veer off his well-written response and start making blanket allegations without laying proof on the Table of the House? Is he in order to proceed that way? This is a House of rules and procedures.

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Of course, the hon. Minister brought in the issue of play parks having been sold. However, hon. Member, when you were raising the point of order, I heard you mention that the hon. Minister referred to the Patriotic Front (PF). Unfortunately, I did not hear that myself. The hon. Minister just said that there are some people, I think, who sold off some play parks.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: He did not mention the PF.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: However, my guide to the hon. Minister is: Please, let us stick as much as possible to this constituency-based question, which is talking about Mufumbwe Constituency. If possible hon. Minister, let us focus on Mufumbwe.

You may proceed.

Mr Nkombo: I appreciate, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, in my response to the hon. Colleague from Mufumbwe, I indicated that the play park that we envisage to develop is contained in the five-year IDP for Mufumbwe. I took advantage of this because what we are battling to do should not be an exercise in futility. We do not want to see that years after we have gone, others should sell those play parks. These play parks serve a purpose. That is the nexus or the connection that I thought of putting up.

Madam Speaker, I also wish to state that we found that play parks had been sold off. Even during our time, because I am a very fair leader myself, two play parks in Lusaka were also sold. What we did with my colleague, the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources, when we heard about the parcelling out of the play parks along Church Road and Kalungu Road, we instantly went to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to report the matter in order for that transaction to be reversed. The seller was found and arrested because he had a title deed whose origin was in doubt. We asked our sister ministry, the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources to immediately put a Restriction Order on the sale of those play parks. That is how important we think these play parks are. Suffice to mention that in the past, these transactions kept happening while leaders were watching.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let us keep in mind that this is a constituency-based question.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I do agree with the hon. Minister when he says that some play parks were actually sold. Even in my own constituency, I can testify. What the hon. Minister forgot to mention was that some people also gave out leases. Up to now, we do not know the people who are running the play parks, especially in my constituency. Now, my question is: What measures is the hon. Minister going to put in place to make sure that the incident in Kabwata does not occur in Mufumbwe, where a play park in a rural area will end up being sold by whoever is going to take over?

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No.65(1)(b). This is to do with what the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation said when responding to my question.

Madam Speaker, I went to pick up the verbatim because when we speak in this Parliament, we must be factual and relevant in terms of the information that we give to the people who are listening. This information remains as part of our Hansard such that even ten, twenty or fifty years from now, it will be on our record.

Madam Speaker, Additional Note No. 2 say that nevertheless, the ministry has undertaken – The ministry will include Kabanze and Mbole dams on the programme for future feasibility studies. The rehabilitation of the dams can only be done once the feasibility studies, designs, and engineers’ estimates are done, and also, when funds are made available.

Madam Speaker, it is from the response by the hon. Minister that I raised a question as follows: Does the rehabilitation of an old dam now require a feasibility study or a cost estimate to determine the cost? A feasibility study entails that members of the community may oppose a project which may have an environmental impact.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister in his response, said that I misunderstood him because he did not refer to the feasibility study. He read this statement which I quickly went to pick up from the Hansard Department. Was the hon. Minister in order to mislead this august House and the Zambian people a minute after he read this statement? (Waved a document in the air).

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you hon. Member.

From the rules that we have, it is very important that a point of order is raised immediately there is a breach of procedure in the House. Now, we have even passed that segment where the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation was responding. We are now on another question that is being answered by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development. So, hon. Member, you can put a complaint in a written format and address it to the Speaker so that it can be sorted out because as of now, we have moved on. We cannot go back to a subject that has been studied.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development will respond to the hon. Member for Kabwata.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for yet another opportunity. My thinking around the question that my hon. Colleague has asked, which I actually mentioned in my previous response is to never again, in future, allow selfish individuals to sell off common areas like play parks which serve a purpose, not only to develop children but also, to provide – In case people do not know, vegetation is what helps us get the oxygen that we breathe. So, we are going to maintain green areas that are designated to be green in the entire country. As for those play parks that were sold, I am afraid that is a matter that we may need to submit to our colleagues who run the Ministry of Justice to determine whether or not, reversals can be done on these unfortunate and unscrupulous transactions.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, indeed, it is pleasing to hear that our Government has a programme to try and put up these play parks in various areas. Now, I was wondering if at this point, they have some models and indicative costs of what it would take to put up a play park so that the hon. Member for Mufumbwe may consider using his Constituency Development Fund (CDF), in case it is an amount that is manageable.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, we have not designed a standard size of play parks because they all come in various sizes. The size of a play park may be determined by the size of the population in a given jurisdiction. It may be determined by the amount of activity that one wants to embark on.

Madam Speaker, as a matter of fact, we are encouraging citizens who have land to convert some of their land to play parks which are very helpful. They are actually a therapy. Hon. Members may know that it is a good therapy for children to go out and interact with nature. It actually helps them to grow.

Madam Speaker, the children who live, for instance, in Kabwata, on a block or high-rise flats wake up, go to school, come back and end up in the stairs. They are locked up and that is like being in jail. They are confined. Therefore, these play parks serve the purpose of freeing the mind of the children by allowing them to interact with nature. So, the play parks will come in different forms and sizes depending on what ambition one may have in a given area.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will pick the last two hon. Members. The hon. Member for Mbabala and the hon. Member for Pambashe.

Mr Musanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the wonderful explanations he is providing to this question. As the Parliamentary Caucus on Children (PCC) here at Parliament, we are very excited to hear about the programme of work that the ministry has embarked on to revive the play parks for children.

Madam Speaker, like the hon. Minister has mentioned, here in Lusaka, we used to have good play parks in the Marshlands area, near the University of Zambia (UNZA) and behind Don Gordon School, in the Minestone area, but all these are gone, and it is so annoying.

Madam Speaker, is the ministry taking into consideration, in designing of models for the local resource-based play parks, the use of local materials so that we can have models of play parks that can be made everywhere in the country? For example, us from the villages, we could have ours made out of wood and other materials that are available in our communities. I think with the hon. Minister’s explanation about donating land, that would be an easier one for us because then, we would actually take that forward using our Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to ensure that our children have modern play parks that are appropriate to the cultural environment where we are.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I can confirm that we will entertain and gladly so, any innovation that will come to help the Government achieve this particular policy direction of greening our areas. I am quite certain that in line with our position with my hon. Colleague in the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, we will get sufficient support for those who want to embark on such initiatives. I can also confirm that it is the Government’s policy to actually go on a robust plan to make sure we protect our environment as much as we possibly can. That is the reason my hon. Colleague and friend, Eng. Collins Nzovu’s ministry was created. It was there to demonstrate the President’s will to respond to the climate challenges that we are having not only as a country, but as a region.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

SHOOTING OF PEOPLE SUSPECTED OF PRACTICING WITCHCRAFT IN KATOMBOLA

338. Mr Simunji (Nalikwanda) (on behalf of Mr Andeleki (Katombola)) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

whether the Government is aware that there have been cases of people suspected of practicing witchcraft being shot dead in Nyawa area in Katombola Parliamentary Constituency; and
if so, what measures are being taken to protect the residents of Nyawa and other parts of the Constituency from such attacks?

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo) (on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu)): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware of the reports of cases of people suspected of practicing witchcraft being shot in Nyawa area. The cases were reported at Kalomo Police Station.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Police Service has enhanced intelligence gathering on the matter leading to the arrest of a number of suspects for shooting people suspected of practicing witchcraft. In addition, the Zambia Police Service has been conducting sensitisation programmes encouraging people to use appropriate channels when they are aggrieved as opposed to taking the law into their own hands.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I have an announcement to make.

I have just received information that the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House today is the hon. Minister of Justice, Mr Haimbe, SC.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, we have not been informed if Sylvia Masebo has been sworn in as hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

For your information, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is held up somewhere. So, we have the Acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

I thank you.

_______

Mr Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I thank the acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. This clearly sounds like these are Karavina matters. Is the ministry considering coming up with an amnesty to clean up the area of illegal firearms that must be in the wrong hands? How many people have been shot dead so far?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I will answer the first part of the question. The second part will be considered as a new question. As a Government policy, whenever this has happened from time to time, amnesty has been granted to the public on issues of arms. That has actually helped. So, that is an ongoing programme of the Government whenever need arises.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dudumwezi): Madam Speaker, Nyawa shares a boundary with Dudumwezi. Last week, there is a lady who was shot dead in my constituency. May I know if the hon. Minister is in a position to inform us when vehicles for the Zambia Police Service will be taken to those areas.

Madam Speaker, issues that are so devastating in areas like Nyawa are where a person is shot dead in the night and the police from Kalomo will only be there around 1600 hours the following day. This has been the cry of the people because they want to know why bodies are left laying for such a long time.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, it is indeed, true. We have heard that our communities are living in fear and the same is happening in my constituency, in Chongwe. This is something the Government is very concerned because it is getting several reports from various places of armed people who are attacking innocent citizens.

Madam Speaker, as regards the exact question that has been put forward concerning police vehicles, I have just been advised by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development that in fact, the procurement process is already underway. Very soon, police vehicles will be procured through the same process that was used to acquire the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) vehicles.

So, some hon. Members of Parliament are being reminded that even if they did not think it was a good idea to take certain initiatives, they can now see the need for the police to be equipped with transport. This is because of the increased crime especially in the rural parts of Zambia. They also need protection and security.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Madam Speaker, in most cases, criminals who shoot at people use homemade guns and they buy bullets for them using licenses for other guns. Now, my question is: Is there anything that can be done to discourage those who legally own guns from buying bullets for homemade?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, if we assume that the statement or question by the hon. Member is correct, the answer would be very simple. It is illegal to buy bullets for homemade guns using the license for other guns. I think the hon. Members of Parliament who are partly custodians of the people in their constituencies should help the Government in sensitising the public on this illegality.

Madam Speaker, let me also state that the police is as good as the people. An effective police service is dependent on effective community policing. So, we, as citizens, should be police officers. For instance, currently, drugs are being distributed in clinics. It is the community that should help the Government to catch criminals because police officers are just human beings like them, including myself. Yes, they may have the training, but worldwide, the police is effective if the people themselves act as the police.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will pick the last two questions from the hon. Member for Mbabala and the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, in that order.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security on the response given to the question concerning Kazungula Constituency.

Madam Speaker, I want to find out if the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security has a conflict resolution programme to try and sensitise our communities and train them on how to amicably handle such issues. Even my constituency is affected, as it has been reported. Mbabala, Dundumwezi and Kazungula are on one line. We have been receiving many cases of hired killings. Just last month, in Kabanga area of my constituency, somebody was killed. The other person was missed by a bullet.

Can we have conflict resolution trainings for our communities or paralegal desks set up in our constituencies to help our communities understand how to resolve these issues on a win-win basis without killing people?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the questions that are being posed show that we have issues in our communities. As people’s representatives, when we see questions about guns being brought to the House, we need to get worried because this is not something that is common in Zambia. Clearly, we seem to have an issue that requires attention.

Madam Speaker, let me state that the police service has information and marketing wings that deal with community issues. As to whether the police is effective, that is another point. However, let me say that we are aware that the Government is decentralising this unit. The Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development has a department that acts as a mini-police. That is a department that should be effective. Like I have said, in some areas, police posts are dotted in areas that are far-flung. In some communities, people have to walk 100 km to find a police post. So, in such a situation, obviously, it means that the police service has to depend on the community.

Madam Speaker, remember also that these criminals are not coming from heaven. They come from our homes. That is why it is important that communities and local leaders in all spheres of human endeavours join hands in support of the police service.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I totally want to agree with the hon. Minister that effective policing really depends so much on the community. The hon. Minister, the Acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, is seated next to, (referred to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development) is very serious about this issue because the people who commit these crimes work in collusion. The community know the perpetrators. So, community leaders such as village headmen up to the chiefs are very critical. I think the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi, whom I worked with on some of these matters, understands this very well.

Madam Speaker, is there any deliberate programme the Government is going to put in place between the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security and the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, under which the portfolio of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs falls, to start addressing these matters effectively from the community? These matters are beyond the police service.

Mrs Masebo: I thank the former hon. Minister of Home Affairs for that very important supplementary question.

Hon. Government Members: Former Minister!

Mrs Masebo: Yes, I said former Minister.

Madam Speaker, the decentralisation policy is not only used to deliver primary health services to local authorities. The Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security are also devolving some functions to local authorities.

Madam Speaker, we are all in agreement that the police do not have real police officers. The real policemen are the people in our communities. Therefore, our hope as the Government is that once the devolution process begins to take effect, the community will get to understand that in fact, the best police officers are women in the market, a mother in a home, and the people on the streets. Those are the people who can make the police effective.

Madam Speaker, in agreement to the question that the hon. Member has ably posed, that is the way to proceed. We need local authorities in all the 116 districts to take up the role of police officers at local level because the councillors and local leaders such as headmen are the ones who know what is happening in their arears of jurisdictions.

Lastly, Madam Speaker, I am the Acting Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security until tomorrow. The substantive hon. Minister is out of the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY ON THE REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF STUDENT LOANS AND SCHOLARSHIPS BY HIGHER EDUCATION LOANS AND SCHOLARSHIPS BOARD IN ZAMBIA

Ms S. Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Administration of Student Loans and Scholarships by the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB) in Zambia, …

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we have order. We want to listen to the report.

Hon. Member for Kasama Central, you may continue.

Ms S. Mwamba:… between 2017 and 2020, for the Second Session of the Twentieth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 27^thJune, 2023.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: It should the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Ms S. Mwamba: I beg your pardon, Madam Speaker. It is the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Simuzingili (Gwembe): I beg to second the Motion, Madam Speaker.

Ms S. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No. 198(g) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders 2021, the National Assembly is vested with the power to consider audit reports referred to it by the Hon. Speaker or through a resolution of the House. Your Committee was mandated to consider this performance audit report in accordance with Standing Order No. 198(g). I have no doubt that hon. Members have taken time to read the Committee’s report and therefore, I will restrict my comments to key findings.

Madam Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia transformed the bursaries scheme into a loan scheme in 2004. This was done with the aim of ensuring the sustainability of the scheme as well as increasing the capacity of the Government to increase the number of beneficiaries from universities and colleges. Following the enactment of the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board Act, No. 31 of 2016 –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

We seem to be disturbing the hon. Member on the Floor. The voices are becoming louder. We want to listen to the report. You can also caucus outside the Assembly Chambers. You are free to do so. We want to listen to this very important report.

Mr Mutale: Yes!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let us not disturb the hon. Member. This is the second time I am guiding.

Hon. Member for Kasama Central, you may continue.

Ms S. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, following the enactment of the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board Act, No. 31 of 2016, the Government of the Republic of Zambia has since 2018 implemented a repayment mechanism under the scheme targeting beneficiaries from 2005 to date.

Madam Speaker, the audit report under review considered whether HELSB has put in place measures to ensure increased equitable access and inclusive higher education through self-sustaining student loans and scholarships. The current loan scheme includes funding for student tuition, accommodation, meals, books and project allowances. The report revealed that there was a need for the Government to increase the budgetary allocation to HELSB so as to accommodate the high number of school leavers who qualify for admission to universities and colleges every year.

Madam Speaker, your Committee further observed that there was a need for HELSB to come up with a testing mechanism to determine the authenticity of the vulnerability of the loan applicants. Through this tool, the board will be able to award loans to those who truly deserve them and also, provide financial assistance in accordance with the needs of the applicants.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the recovery of loans, HELSB started recoveries in 2018. The process has, however, been marred by many anomalies that include the following:

wrong amortised loan amounts;
high-interest rates of 15 per cent charged on a reducing balance;
failure to capture and recover loans from over 33,217 beneficiaries; and
lack of proper tracking mechanisms of beneficiaries, to mention but a few.

Madam Speaker, in view of the above, your Committee recommends that HELSB should collaborate with public universities and other Government departments to ensure that an integrated information management system database is established for ease of managing the scheme. In addition, your Committee urges the board to ensure that it strengthens its sensitisation and visibility activities in all provinces so that no person who is eligible for sponsorship is left behind.

Madam Speaker, I wish to conclude by thanking all stakeholders who appeared before the Committee. Lastly, let me thank you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Simuzingili: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, in seconding the Motion on the Floor of this august House to adopt the Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology on the Performance Audit Report of the Auditor-General on the Administration of Student Loans in Zambia for the period 2017 to 2020, allow me to thank the Chairperson for having ably moved the Motion to adopt the report.

Madam Speaker, may I draw your attention to three issues that I would like to address, which the mover may not have covered. I will look at the training programmes awarded to students, the insurance of student loans and the investment of the funds. Your Committee observed that there are students who are sent abroad which is extremely expensive. Such students can be trained locally.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also noted that the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Board (HELSB) has not taken time to conduct a cost-benefit analysis to scrutinise the cost of training students out of the country and locally. Again, when you look at this issue, it means that very few students will be trained out of the country as opposed to locally. Therefore, your Committee recommends that HELSB undertakes a cost-benefit analysis for the benefit of the country.

Madam Speaker, the other issue is regarding insurance. Hon. Members should know that these student loans are not insured and that there are a lot of defaults in terms of payment. In the event of these students defaulting, what happens if they are not insured? Your Committee noted that very serious anomaly and as such, it recommended that all student loans be insured. This is a revolving fund and so, there must be sustainability. In the event of default, the insurance company should be able to sustain those funds.

Madam Speaker, the other issue that I wish to note is the concern of your Committee that HELSB does not have an investment policy. One wonders how the Loans Board grow and sustain the fund if there is no investment policy. Your Committee recommended that HELSB should implement an investment framework in order to have suitability in the loans that are given to the students. This is in order to grow the money that the Government is giving to the board to grow because at the moment, HELSB solely depends on Government grants. So, your Committee critically observed that HELSB should create an investment framework.

Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I am grateful once again, for the opportunity to make a few very important comments on this very important topic that has been brought to this august House. I want to thank the mover of the Motion, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasama Central, and of course, the seconder, the hon. Member for our good people of Gwembe.

Madam Speaker, the report has highlighted what needs to be done to ensure that there is equitable access of these funds by as many applicants as possible. Therefore, I want to begin my contribution on this particular debate by stating how we can identify those who are vulnerable and how we can ensure that as many poor people as possible, acquire education at tertiary level. I am aware that the initial idea behind training as many Zambians as possible, when our forefathers decided to come up with a bursary scheme, the understanding was that Zambia did not have many people who were well-equipped with skills. At that particular time, our founding fathers thought of training as many people as possible. I am aware that even in this august House, we have many beneficiaries of this particular programme. The initial idea was to release the money and train as many people as possible.

Madam Speaker, over the years, the challenge has been the issue of numbers. How do we ensure that the young people of Mpongwe get the opportunity for instance, to go to university, acquire degrees and apply their necessary skills? So, the question we must ask ourselves is: How do we establish the people who are vulnerable so that they are assisted?

Madam Speaker, I do recall that in 2004, the Government decided to do away with the bursary. A bursary is where one is given money that they do not have to pay back. Now, what we have is a loan scheme which basically means that if someone is given money to go and study, once they start work, they have to pay it back to a revolving fund account. I am aware that it has been a challenge to put as many people as possible on the loan scheme. So, what should be done to ensure that two things are achieved? What should be done to ensure that we capture as many applicants as possible?

Madam Speaker, the first thing that I want to suggest is that if the money is now a loan, it simply means that we need to have more students acquiring loans. Assuming that they are going to get employed at some point, that in itself creates some form of insurance. I am aware that your Committee has recommended that these loans need to be insured. The likelihood of the loan insurance component is that it will increase the value of the actual loan itself. For a loan to be insured, it simply means that we need to go in the private sector and ask the insurance companies to tell us how much it will cost for insurance.

Madam Speaker, the other way of ensuring that we recover that money is to train as many students as possible so that when they start work, they will start their applicable contributions. This is why last year or early this year, I am on record suggesting that since it is a loan, if we target more beneficiaries, it means that the revolving fund will grow faster. So, my suggestion to your Committee and the hon. Minister of Education is that perhaps, if the challenge is not having enough resources, we can try and increase the basket. If we allocated more money in the loan scheme, it simply means that the question of who is vulnerable or not may not even arise. This is because currently, we have a challenge in identifying who is vulnerable an not. Is the young person in Ndeke more vulnerable than someone in Mulenga Compound? Who determines a family that needs to be sponsored and that does not?

Madam Speaker, to avoid this argument of who is more vulnerable than the other, my suggestion is that, and I want to insist, if we have more money, there will be no discrimination because every applicant will be given a loan. Once they start work – The assumption is that when one is trained to acquire a degree at the Copperbelt University (CBU) or the University of Zambia (UNZA), it simply means that the likelihood of one getting employed will be quite high. So, if that is the principle, my appeal to the Government is that the discrimination in choosing who is vulnerable and not should come to an end. We will continue struggling to identify who is more vulnerable between a child in Mindolo and the one in Ndeke. The formula used to determine who is vulnerable or not, despite involving the social welfare department, at this stage in our country, is still failing. We are still not able to determine whether a young person in Wusakile needs a loan more than a young person in another constituency.

Madam Speaker, to cure that problem, we need to double or triple the resources. We need to put in more money because essentially, it is a loan. It is a loan because after one starts work, one needs to pay it back with some form of interest.

Madam Speaker, as I stand here, I am agreeing with the observations by your Committee but I want to add to what your Committee has already prepared. I want to say to my dear colleagues that we are still not able to determine who is vulnerable. What will be the cure to the problem? The cure is to put in more resources so that those who want to go to the university, regardless of how many points they have can do so. I am saying so because currently, the preserve of a loan scheme is for those who have done exceptionally well when the principle should be based on those who cannot acquire further education. So, I want to urge the acting hon. Minister of Education, even though I cannot see the substantive office bearer, that a loan is the money that one acquires with the hope that when one gets employed, one starts to pay back. With that principle, we can extend the loan scheme to as many students as possible. We can go to the University of Lusaka (UNILUS) and indicate to the students that they can also apply for this loan scheme because one day, they will have to pay back. We can go to literally all the private universities, provide resources and ensure that they pay back after they commence their working structure.

Madam Speaker, in supporting the report, I want to appeal to the Government to expand the application of the loan scheme to students in public universities. The Government should expand the fund because at some point, those individuals will have the capacity to pay back. If they have the capacity to pay back, they will be able to contribute to the revolving fund.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, in supporting the Motion, firstly, I would like to agree with the conclusion of the report in the sense that many a time, we sponsor Grade 12 graduates to universities.

Madam Speaker, the House will agree with me that although we are saying that the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB) admits 35 per cent of the students on merit, if we look at where those students come from, we will find that they are either from the Copperbelt, Lusaka, Chipata or Livingstone, and it ends there. It can be a miracle for students in the rural parts of each district to be given one or two places. So, my suggestion is that at the end of the selection, the Constituency Development Committee which is at the lower level should look at the names and see whether they are from Nyimba or not.

Madam Speaker, if we conducted a simple audit at the University of Zambia (UNZA) today, we would find that 90 per cent of the students there come from the urban areas. HELSB is not only for people from cities but for the entire country. It is every Zambian who should benefit from that. They may say that they have given 30 per cent for the female students in the rural set up but that is not correct. This is why I differ with the paragraph in the report which talks about that. I only agree with the conclusion. It is very simple. If we check the information of the students who come from the rural parts of the Zambia, who are admitted to the schools, we will find that their addresses which they put on the application forms are not even verified. This is indicated in the report. Now, since the information is not verified, the only people who can testify to say that those students come from the rural setup are those who live in the same areas. I, therefore, wish to recommend that people should be assessed at district or constituency level in order to have equal number of students in higher learning institutions.

Madam Speaker, all the good schools in the rural areas are filled up with students from urban areas. Currently, if you look at the certificates, they will show you at which school one was. For example, if one was at Kacholola Secondary School, it will show on the certificate. 90 per cent of the pupils at Kacholola Secondary School are from Lusaka. It is now that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has been disbursed that we have pushed the number of rural children to about 20 per cent or 30 per cent in the constituency.

Madam Speaker, the same people from Lusaka who are also benefiting from better schools in the rural setup are the ones who take up all the positions at UNZA, Mulungushi University and CBU. At the end of the day, inequity will continue because the people in the rural areas will not be regarded as part and parcel of this country. The Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development implemented the decentralisation policy where people were identified from the wards and sections. The same should apply to this board. Then, we are going to have equal number of students from all parts of the country in these universities.

Madam Speaker, I also disagree with the report where it says that universities should be expanded. The issue of expanding universities in the cities does not help us as a country. Let us see to it that we build universities in the rural parts of this country like in Solwezi and Mufumbwe in the North-Western because that will help us. If we are going to be more proactive in this Parliament and say we build the King Lewanika University, that will help us. If we are going to decide to have a university in Mansa, that will help us as well. If we are going to build a university in Nyimba, that will help us. This is what we need in order decentralise tertiary education at that level.

So, even if we admit somebody from a certain university in Lufwanyama, we will all agree that that particular person is from Lufwanyama, and not what is happening today. What is happening today is that the spaces that are there are just for a few elites from Lusaka or the Copperbelt. I think there is a cartel and no one can disagree with me. I know that some people will disagree with me but if we do a simple audit, we will understand that whatever we are doing will not help our people out there. So, my appeal, Madam Speaker, is that we need to do what I have stated.

Madam Speaker, in addition, let me talk about the programmes that the Government is sponsoring. The country is sponsoring consumption unlike production. There is no country, Madam Speaker, that can survive without promoting science and technology.

Madam Speaker, Germany is currently where it is because it invested in technology. This country has fewer engineers and technicians. It is only ‘full’ of accountants. I am sorry, this is not an insult, Madam Speaker. In this country, we have many accountants, marketeers and business administrators. Now, what are we going to administer if there is no business to administer? We first of all need to create employment and come up with what will give us production. Then, from there, we will be able employ the rest of the professionals.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, if we have a million graduates from UNZA, where are they going to get jobs if there are no people to create employment? This is a system we need to build as a country. Today, I am sorry to say, we have many people who have graduated as lawyers. I am sorry to say this because we have many lawyers in this House. I know that 90 per cent of hon. Members in this House are lawyers. Now, which political cases are they going to prosecute? For them to do their job, there must be different cases. So, what do we need? We need to build this economy based on simple things.

Madam, Speaker, it is sad that many graduates in this country end up going to South Africa, especially those who do technical jobs. These people are the designers of the things the we import from South Africa. So, why are we not pushing in money into this field? We need to get many students into universities and colleges, who can at least create employment in this country. We cannot just have graduates looking for employment. I support the Motion 100 per cent.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Kalomo Central.

Mr Kamboni rose.

Hon. Members: Komboni Radio! Komboni Radio!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity.

Madam Speaker, the topic that we have is a very serious one in that it talks about helping those who may not be able to afford education. If all of us here were not helped by the free education policy, we would not be where we are today.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Kamboni: Therefore, any system must be analysed and checked to make sure that it does what it is supposed to do. The objective of this audit report is to assess whether the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Board (HELSB) has put in place measures to ensure that there is increased, equitable and inclusive access to higher education through self-sustaining student loans and scholarships. Now, the question is: Is it HELSB very inclusive? I do not think so, Madam Speaker. I do not think is very inclusive because something that is inclusive takes on everybody.

Madam Speaker, firstly, the institution that gives loans needs to be restructured so that it is inclusive of everybody. It looks like those who designed it did not look at its purpose very well.

Madam Speaker, it is also cardinal for the board to increase the money that is supposed to be given to the students. I remember in 2016, we were only able to sponsor about 2,000 students out of the too many secondary schools that we have in the country. Currently, many schools have developed and the population has increased. Therefore, we need to increase the amount of money so that we can cater for more students.

Madam Speaker, we also take note of the recovery method that is being used. That is why I am saying that the board must be restructured, just like we did on the debt. Why am I saying so? It is because the method that the institution is using to recover money is not reliable. The institution is only able to recover about 6 per cent of the money from a few students it captures, who are able to pay. I have interacted with a number of former university students who are paying back this money and they are crying. The amounts that are recovered per month are huge. Now, if this loan was spread to people who could be working by now, we could recover more money.

Madam Speaker, the other problem is that the system does not capture those who are in the informal sector. Sometimes the people who are in the informal sector make more money than those in the formal sector. The people in the informal sector use the knowledge they got from the universities ‘the degrees’, through these loans but they cannot be captured. Someone said that we should use technology to track these students. How can we fail to track these students when they live in this country? We should be able to track them. So, the fact that we do not recover any money from all the students, the burden of paying back is always given to those who pay, and this is how we manage to recover the 6 per cent of the money. The money that we give is too much but what is recovered is very little. For any system to be sustainable, the recovery method must at least reach 50 per cent and above. If it is below 20 per cent, basically, that is as good as having no recovery at all. So, there is need to improve on that aspect so that as we recover the money, more students benefit.

Madam Speaker, let me also talk about the idea of not insuring loans. In modern countries, whenever one gets a loan, that loan is insured. It is only here in Zambia where people get loans that are not ensured. We have seen in this report that quite a number of students died and the amount of money that is indicated is colossal. Those students died and we cannot recover the money. They are gone. If these loans were insured, the board would have recovered the money and paid more students. So, when we are dealing with the taxpayers’ money, which we are giving the people, we need to take necessary steps to make sure that the money is paid back. We, therefore, ask the hon. Minister of Education to make sure that all the loans that are gotten from HELSB are insured. We do not need to pay a lot of money for insurance. If we can insure our cars and houses, how can we not insure these loans? Once we insure these loans, the money that we will get through insurance will be used to take that poor student, the hon. Member for Nyimba, Mr Menyani Zulu, will recommend. We have talked about the primitive recovery method that needs to change.

Madam Speaker, the Department of Social Welfare is responsible for choosing the vulnerable people but in most cases, it fails to do so. It fails to give the social cash transfer (SCT) to the intended people. So, I feel it is not the right institution to do that as of now. We need another system that will identify the vulnerable people so that they can beefit from the SCT. Otherwise, the system that is there has been benefiting the same people.

Madam Speaker, maybe, we need to change this system to what the Constituency Development Committee is using. This is where every child is allowed to go to the ward or village where they come from to verify their details in terms of the name of the village, names of parents and also, indicate whether they are poor or not. That way, we will be able to locate the vulnerable children. The only problem is that the method that we are using now is also vulnerable because anyone can go and get the documents and pretend to be vulnerable. Even the issue of indicating the address when applying is not useful. People know that now, they do not need to use the addresses in Lusaka because if they did, they would not get 100 per cent bursary. Currently, people use addresses of places where they do not live. So, this equally, has to change.

Madam Speaker, we also lack sensitisation of people in our constituencies. The people in the constituency where we live do not know how HELSB works. If they have no relatives or friends from the university to tell them about it, they will not know. When there are advertisements concerning the same, people do not know about it. I receive numerous people at my constituency office coming to ask about it. As hon. Members of Parliament, we are not given the information to explain to the people accurately when these advertisements are being done. So, the sensitisation method should be improved in order to catch as many people as possible. That way, it will make sense.

Madam Speaker, on investment, it has also been said here that the Government has no idea where to invest this money. That is why I said that we need to restructure the system. There is need for part of this money to be reinvested so that the profit can benefit more students.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion on behalf of the people of Chama North. First and foremost, I want to thank the mover of this Motion and also, the seconder for the work well done.

Madam Speaker, I fully support the adoption of this particular report on student loans and scholarships. Education is the best equaliser. It is an effective vehicle for creating wealth at the household level and also, eradicating poverty. So, that is why it is very important that we attach great importance to the education sector if our country has to move forward. As other debaters have mentioned, we need to review the composition of the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Board (HELSB) so that it is representative. Your Committee notes that there is no transparency in the way the loans are awarded to deserving students. So, my appeal to the hon. Minister of Education is to review the composition of the board so that we can even include people from the three church mother bodies to enhance transparency and accountability in the way these loans are awarded.

Madam Speaker, coming from a rural constituency, it is very sad to note that the rural areas are disadvantaged. As other speakers have noted, the criterion which is used is that those who get six or seven points should automatically qualify. We must know that most of these students come from urban schools like Mpelembe Secondary School, David Kaunda Technical Secondary School, and Hillcrest Technical High School. Most of the students come from these elite schools. For a child in the rural area, where there is no electricity, to get eight points, I feel that that child is far much better than a child in an urban area, who has access to all the facilities. So, there is need to review that criterion because there are many students in rural areas, who are performing exceptionally well but cannot manage to access these particular loans. Punitive measures must be meted out against the officers who will be practicing favouritism. That can serve as a deterrent to them.

Madam Speaker, with regard to publicity, I totally agree that the people in rural areas like Chama and Katangalika cannot access information. Where can someone access newspapers to get information from in those areas? That is why it is important that the Ministry of Education through HELSB ups the publicity mechanism.

We have community radio stations in almost all rural districts. So, I think it is important that we use these radio stations because not many of our people are able to access newspapers. We also have offices of the District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS). I feel that these offices can also be empowered to ensure that they go around the districts and sensitise the people on the criteria used for them to access this facility.

Madam Speaker, there is also the issue of inadequate funds in the resource envelope. I think education must not be treated as an expense. Education must be treated as an investment. There is no country that has developed without investing in education. So, if we are going to be looking at the cost aspect, then we are missing it as a country. I think many countries have developed today in terms of science and technology because they have invested so much in education. The Asian Tigers, Singapore, Malaysia and many other countries have invested heavily in education and that is why today, they have attained high levels of development.

Madam Speaker, I also call for an increased budgetary allocation towards HELSB. Since we are going to undergo a national debt restructuring process, I think we will now have some breathing space. Therefore, we have to ensure that more resources are allocated for student loans and scholarships. That is the only way we are going to ensure that many of our people access this facility.

Madam Speaker, there was a female student at the University of Zambia (UNZA) who committed suicide because she was not awarded a bursary. This was a very sad development. You can see that people attach a high premium to education. So, I think it is important that we address this issue.

Madam Speaker, I also want to encourage the ministry to take the initiative instead of just relying on the money from the Government. I think there is need for the Government to provide incentives to the private sector. The private sector can actually be able to contribute to this particular basket when given tax incentives by the Government. That way, I think we are going to increase the resource envelope for this particular board.

Madam Speaker, according to the Auditor-General’s report, the recovery of student loans is very poor. I think we must put in place radical measures to ensure that we increase the recovery period.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, it is sad that our board has no investment policy. It is very sad and that is why it is important that as we appoint members on these boards. Let us appoint people who have got a business background. We should appoint people who are able to come up with ideas to grow that particular basket. Otherwise, we shall be lamenting year in and year out.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I support the adoption of this report.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I would like to apologise to the hon. Members who have indicated to debate on this Motion. We still have many Bills that are supposed to be covered. So, I will straightaway, go to the hon. Minister for Southern Province, then the hon. Acting Minister of Education and the chairperson of the Committee will wind up debate.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Mweetwa): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to add my voice and ventilate my views on the Motion which is on the Floor of this House. I must declare interest that I am partisan on this matter because, like my hon. Colleague here, I am a former president of the University of Zambia Students Union (UNZASU), a member of the senate of the University of Zambia (UNZA) and also, member of the University Council of Zambia for five years. Therefore, I attach great importance to issues to do with student welfare.

Madam Speaker, let me, therefore, begin on this note. Through you, Madam Speaker, using the platform of the Floor of the House, let me congratulate His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, and his Administration for walking the talk by ensuring that the electoral commitment or promise to return meal allowances for students in public universities is actualised.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I recall moving a Motion on the Floor of this House urging the Patriotic Front (PF) not to do away with meal allowances, but you know them, these people (looking at hon. PF Members), they went ahead to remove meal allowances –

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, let us avoid debating ourselves. This is the rule of the House. You may continue with that guide in mind.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, thank you for the guidance.

Madam Speaker, I was talking about the former Ruling Party, and not these (gesturing towards hon. PF Members) who are my hon. Colleagues and I cannot talk about them. I am talking about the administration, you know them. Even if you told them things that were right, provided it was coming from the Opposition, they did something else. I am happy that this Administration of President Hakainde Hichilema is a listening Government.

Madam Speaker, as somebody who is interested in student welfare, I am ecstatic that students now have meal allowances. This is what any reasonable and sensible Government should do. It should look after the welfare of the young people because that is the bedrock of Zambia’s future. That is the nursery for the next Parliament of Zambia. So, we must take care of them. So, I am happy and we have been justified that we stood on the right side of history. I am thankful for that, Madam Speaker.

Secondly, Madam Speaker, I want to indicate, in line with the findings of this particular report, that I have always had this feeling that we can do better as a people. In the past, when we talked about the student loan scheme, particularly, to do with scholarships to go and study abroad, there was a preserve of those who were politically connected, regardless of qualification. That was bad behaviour.

Therefore, Madam Speaker, I am happy that with this New Administration of the New Dawn, the transparency which the hon. Members have lamented on the Floor of this House is being addressed. This is how it should be. Why should it be that you can have the brains, but if your uncle is not an hon. Minister or somebody high-ranking in the Government, you cannot be sponsored to go and study in Europe? You can only be sponsored to go and study in Europe if you are politically connected. That behaviour was very bad.

Madam Speaker, I am happy that this New Administration is very transparent. We should never look back to those dark days when for you to determine your future, you have to be politically aligned and not intellectually endowed. Many people missed out on opportunities because they were not connected to politicians.

Madam Speaker, you have seen that even with job recruitment now, there is nothing like you are connected to a politician. That is how it should be. It should be based on merit. So even getting a scholarship should be based on merit. That is the Government the people of Zambia wanted.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for allowing me to raise this point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65(1)(a).

Madam Speaker, the Motion, as ably moved by the chairperson of your Committee and seconder, is very clear. The contents of the report are also very clear.

Madam Speaker, I do sympathise with my able hon. Colleague, the Minister for Southern Province, whom, all things being equal, should have been articulating the Government’s policy from the other side, other than being put in the –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is the point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, he is navigating between articulating Government’s policy as an hon. Minister for Southern Province and debating the Motion.

Ms Sefulo: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: You may not understand these things. We are talking from experience.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we are behind time. Can the hon. Member on the Floor please, go straight to the point of order.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order not to confine himself to the report and the subject matter which is under debate? Is he in order to start politicking in his own interesting way? Is he in order to take that route of debate?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The only part where the hon. Minister for Southern Province was out of order was when he brought the issue of recruitment. In the report, there is nowhere where it talks about the recruitment that took place. So, my guide to the hon. Minister is for him to stick to the report. It is straightforward. It is talking about the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Board in Zambia between 2017, to 2020.

With that guide, you may proceed, hon. Minister.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your wise guidance. Let me move on to my next point by indicating that my hon. Colleague lamented that the fund needs to be expanded. I totally agree with him that the fund needs to be expanded in order to be more inclusive. This means bringing more beneficiaries on board. It is because of that, Madam Speaker, that we need prudent leadership in the management of national affairs particularly, national resources. That is why we have a President who insists on prudent utilisation of public resources to create fiscal headroom so that we invest in critical sectors such as the education sector. So, for those who believe that this fund needs to be expanded, their answer is very clear. They know who to support. They have to support a prudent leader or President, the one who ensures that public resources do not end up in the hands of a few people, who tell others to say, “tantameni.” They need public resources to benefit the public and the many young people out there particularly, those from the vulnerable families.

That is why, Madam Speaker, every day when I wake up, I thank the people of Zambia for voting for President Hakainde Hichilema (HH) and the New Dawn Government. With that, we have a new beginning and prudent utilisation of public resources in this country so that more young people can be taken to school.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

The Minister of Youth, Sports and Arts (Mr Nkandu) (on behalf of the Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima)): Madam Speaker, I wish to express my sincere gratitude to you, for according me this opportunity to make a submission to support the adoption of the Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology on the Performance Audit Report of the Auditor-General on the Administration of Student Loans and Scholarships by the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board in Zambia between 2017 and 2020, laid on the Table of the House for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, from the onset, I want to indicate that the concerns that have been raised by hon. Members of Parliament are covered in my response or debate.

Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the Committee Chairperson, Hon. Twambo Mutinta, Member for Itezhi-tezhi, for ably moving this Motion. In addition, I wish to extend my appreciation to the seconder of the Motion –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister.

The Motion was moved by the hon. Member for Kasama Central.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Just for our records.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your guidance. I withdraw the name, “Hon. Twambo Mutinta” and replace it with, “the hon. Member for Kasama Central.” Sorry for that mix-up.

Madam Speaker, I was saying that I wish to extend my appreciation to the seconder of the Motion and all the hon. Members of Parliament for their contributions. Indeed, the report gives us an opportunity to introspect the collective measures that have been taken to administer loans and scholarships for higher education to meet the national demands for human capital.

Madam Speaker, we believe that human and social development are fundamental to inclusive development and are catalytic ingredients to the transformation of the country. This includes addressing the vicious cycles of poverty, inequality and vulnerability. It also entails providing equal opportunities for every citizen to develop to their full potential so that they can effectively contribute to the development of the country.

Madam Speaker, we acknowledge your Committee’s observations and recommendations set out hereunder, based on the findings from both written and oral submissions by the stakeholders, and also, from the experiences that the hon. Members had during the local and foreign Committee tours.

Madam Speaker, the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB) was established by the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Act, No. 31 of 2016. HELSB replaced the Bursaries Committee which was established by Statutory Instrument (SI), No. 182 of 1973 of the Education Act, Cap. 134 of the Laws of Zambia. HELSB has taken over the administration of student loans and scholarships from the Bursaries Committee.

Madam Speaker, HELSB was established with an additional mandate of sourcing and mobilising funds, managing and administering student loans and scholarships to Zambians pursuing higher education in recognised institutions of higher learning. It also has the mandate to recover all mature loans disbursed since 2004.

Madam Speaker, given these challenging effects as highlighted in your Committee’s report, the Government will continue to embark on stakeholder engagements to galvanise a collective effort and develop policies such as the investment policy, the resource mobilisation policy and other strategies that will generate additional resources to support the implementation of the HELSB scheme. In addition, the Government will continue to improve the budgetary allocation to the scheme for more students to access loans and scholarships for both public and private universities.

Madam Speaker, the investment plan has since been developed to help with the mobilisation of resources to sustain HELSB fund. In addition, the key job positions under HELSB patterning to investment and fund management have been filled and these include the fund manager, investment manager and other office holders. These will spearhead loan management and recoveries.

Madam Speaker, the Government agrees to a call to increase investment in these structural reforms that will strengthen the administration and management of the loans and scholarships scheme.

Madam Speaker, the Government has instituted research on how best a means testing mechanism to determine the vulnerability of the loan applicants can be approved or improved to accommodate adequate features including the selection criteria, automation and integration into the higher education integrated information management scheme. This is aimed at automatic granting of funding levels in relation to household vulnerability using a well-coordinated and integrated database.

Madam Speaker, in addition, the Government has made strides in the implementation of HELSB to provide the institution with a minimum viable digital product that will ease student application, registration, screening and other related activities.

Madam Speaker, reconciliation exercises, for instance, is now done bi-annually with Payroll Management Establishment Control (PMEC) to normalise deductions for the beneficiaries employed in the civil service who were underpaying the loan. These works are in progress to fully operationalise the integration of systems between HELSB and its stakeholders. This also includes the higher education institutions and the Examination Council of Zambia (ECZ) for improved collaborative engagements.

Madam Speaker, these system innovations will further enhance and aid the tracking systems to ensure that former beneficiaries are traceable and monitored and that they pay back the loans without fail. HELSB has partnered with key stakeholders through a memorandum of understanding (MoUs) and other modalities to ensure that the loan recoveries are effective and efficient. These backers include the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA), the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), the Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA), the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, and, the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA).

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that the Government has already taken steps to ensure that the legal framework is strengthened to mandate HELSB to carry out its functions more efficiently. As I speak, the amendment of the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board Act, No. 31 of 2016, is at Cabinet seeking approval to commence the process. This will create a platform for managing the loans and scholarships scheme effectively and efficiently, which will result in timely publication of names of awarded students, at least one month before the respective higher education institutions open. In addition, it will create a platform to consider the development of a harmonised and well-coordinated learning calendar amongst higher education institutions. Further, this will be the basis for upholding and strengthening transparency and providing clear guidelines that will guide the applicants to make informed decisions regarding the award of sponsorship categories of 100 per cent, 75 per cent and 50 per cent.

Madam Speaker, the Government will continue to benchmark and share notes with neighbouring countries on best practices in the implementation of loans and scholarships scheme. In the same spirit, HELSB has since adopted and insured all student loans against risks of death, permanent and total disability, as well as mental insanity with the Zambia State Insurance Corporation Limited (ZISC) and Madison General Insurance Companies.

Madam Speaker, HELSB will continue to invest in research to improve the running of the institution and be able to make informed investment decisions to achieve greater institutional visibility and reputation. It will also help to inform policies and practices that can improve the quality of the student experience. It is also for this reason that HELSB will consider conducting a cost-benefit analysis before deciding whether to train locally or abroad.

Madam Speaker, we agree to undertaken a robust sensitisation and awareness programmes on the administration and management of loans and scholarships facility especially for secondary schools. In addition, HELSB will continue to coordinate with other key stakeholders in the dissemination of the information regarding access to student loans and scholarships using existing systems and other platforms.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, the Government will ensure that HELSB remains a dynamic, visible and accessible provider of loans and scholarships for higher education to eligible Zambians in a manner that will promote integrity, accountability, equity, transparency, teamwork and professionalism. With the population of Zambia comprising about 82 per cent of youths, the board expects that the number of students seeking help in financing their higher education will increase in the coming years. Based on this, the board commits itself to provide student loans to Zambians pursuing higher education through sufficient mobilisation and cautious management of resources.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms S. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank Hon. Tyson Simuzingili for seconding the Motion. I also wish to thank all the hon. Members who have ably supported the Motion on the Floor of this House. These include Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, Member for Kamfinsa, Hon. Menyani Zulu, Member for Nyimba, Hon. Harry Kamboni, Member for Kalomo Central, Hon Yotam Mtayachalo, Member for Cham North, Hon. Cornelius Mweetwa, Minister for Southern Province. I also wish to finally thank the hon. Acting Minister of Education for the assurances that are contained in his policy statement.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed.

_______

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE NATIONAL PROSECUTION AUTHORITY (Amendment) BILL, 2023

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, the National Prosecution Authority Act, No. 34 of 2010, provides for the establishment of the board of the National Prosecution Authority (NPA) appointed by the minister. The NPA currently does not provide for functions of the board of the authority. The National Prosecution Authority (Amendment) Bill, 2023, therefore, seeks to amend the National Prosecutions Authority Act, No. 34 of 2010, in order to provide for the functions of the board of the authority and revise the composition of the board in order to include members from the private sector to create effective corporate governance and align with the international best practice.

Madam Speaker, the current composition of the board of the authority is largely composed of employees in the civil service with the exception of two members who are appointed by the minister. The composition of the board of the authority does not promote the requirement for diversity in the selection of board members as per the New Dawn Government policy on board composition. Additionally, the current composition of the board of the authority undermines the tenets of good corporate governance in the selection of board members.

Madam Speaker, there is need therefore, to streamline the members on the board who emanate from the civil service and include other key stakeholders and independent members with relevant expertise in prosecutorial matters. Further, there is need to remove the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) as Chairperson of the authority so as to align with international best practice on board management to ensure accountability and transparency.

Madam Speaker, there must be a separation between the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of an institution and the chairperson of the Board of Directors. The removal of the DPP is not in conflict with the Constitution because the Constitution does not explicitly state that the DPP should be the chairperson of the board. The Constitution only recognises the DPP as the head of the authority. The word “head” according to Black’s Law Dictionary refers to a person responsible for an institution. From this definition, it is clear that the head of an institution is the CEO and not necessarily the chairperson of the board.

Madam Speaker, international best practice promotes the requirement that there must be a clearly defined separation of roles between a CEO, who has a role in the day-to-day running of affairs in an institution and the Board of Directors whose role is oversight and input in an institution. This ensures transparency in the management of the institution as it meets its set objectives. The DPP has a role of being the head of the authority –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Mr Speaker, before Business was suspended, I was submitting that a board has an oversight function which is clearly laid out in a board policy manual. The oversight function of the board is merely governance and not to manage the operations of an institution. Therefore, the board of the authority will not seek to provide oversight and manage the prosecutorial functions granted to the DPP in the Constitution and the National Prosecution Authority Act No. 34 of 2010.

Mr Speaker, the role of a chairperson of the board is to lead the board in focusing on strategic matters, oversee the affairs of the institution and set governance standards. This pivotal role fosters the effectiveness of the board. The role of the Chairperson of the board of the authority is as set out in the functions of the proposed amendment. This is to be differentiated from the prosecutorial functions of the DPP which are purely the preserve of the DPP as per the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is very progressive and it is a result of wide stakeholder consultation as it promotes diversity in the selection of board members, promotes the tenets of good corporate governance, and international best practice in the selection of board members.

Mr Speaker, I therefore, urge hon. Members of this august House to wholeheartedly support the Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Lungu (Chawama): Mr Speaker, the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance Affairs was tasked to scrutinise the National Prosecution Authority Bill, No. 7 of 2023, as referred to it by the House on 29^th June, 2023.

Mr Speaker, in carrying out the important task, the Committee interacted with various stakeholders. As you may be aware, the proposed Bill seeks to amend the National Prosecution Authority Act, 2010, so as to revise the composition of the board and to provide for its functions.

Mr Speaker, from the onset, I wish to put it on record that most stakeholders who appeared before the Committee were of the view that the office of the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) is peculiar and that this peculiarity is born of Article 180(3) and (7) of our Republican Constitution.

Mr Speaker, the stakeholders observed that this proposed amendment is creating a narrative of corporate governance in the ordinary sense. This narrative aims at enforcing the principle of checks and balances on the functions of the executive officer of an organisation. The stakeholders observed that these functions have been aligned with those performed by boards of other statutory bodies. They however, contended that for institutions that had a bearing on human rights, public safety and public order, standardisation of the principles of corporate governance may not be advisable.

Mr Speaker, the Committee recognises that the Government seeks to streamline good corporate governance in institutions of governance as to enhance transparency and accountability. However, with regard to the National Prosecution Authority (NPA), the Committee agrees with the stakeholders that the institution is peculiar. This is because the head of NPA, the DPP is conferred with Constitutional authority not only to be the head of the NPA, but also, that the office is not subject to the direction or control of any person or authority in the performance of the functions of that office.

Mr Speaker, the Committee notes that to fulfil the spirit of the Constitution from which power of the DPP emanates, the headship of the DPP is in two facets. The first relates to prosecutorial functions whilst the second relates to administrative functions which include fostering policy and strategic planning.

Mr Speaker, the Committee is of the view that the entire Bill hinges around the provisions of Clause 3 of the Bill which proposes to reposit the administrative functions of the DPP on a different person. Essentially, the new person would be the one to approve policies, programmes and strategies of the authority. This new board chairperson would be the one to approve the annual work plans, action plans and activity reports of the authority.

Mr Speaker, it is a well-known fact the activity of the NPA is prosecution. This would entail that a different head in the realm of administration would be installed.

Mr Speaker, the Committee is of the view that this has some serious ramifications on the independence of the DPP as head of the NPA. To this end, the Committee does not support this Bill.

Mr Speaker, may I repeat that, the Committee does not support this Bill.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lungu: Mr Speaker, the Committee recommends that this Bill be deferred to allow for further consultation and research so as to properly align it to the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, the Committee is of the view that being subjected to further consultations will avert the possibility of the amendment being challenged on its constitutionality.

As I conclude Mr Speaker, I would be failing in my duties if I do not pay tribute to the stakeholders who tendered valuable information to the Committee during its meetings.

Finally, Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you and the National Assembly for the support and services rendered to the Committee throughout its deliberations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Mr Speaker, from the onset, I want to say that I agree with the submissions by your Committee and that I do not support this Bill.

Mr Speaker, the reason countries have Constitutions is to create harmony in terms of the rule of law and for the State to function as an entity that does not create demagogues. The Office of the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) is a constitutional office. If we look at Article 180 of the Constitution which creates the office of the DPP as a constitutional office, we will be able to see that one cannot introduce an officer who is not a constitutional office bearer to supervise that office. Therefore, from the onset, this Bill is unconstitutional as your Committee has rightfully noted.

Sir, this Bill proposes that the chairperson of this board be appointed by the Minister of Justice but Article 180 of the Constitution creates security of tenure for the DPP. The removal of the DPP is subject to a tribunal. The removal of a Minister of Justice is the prerogative of the appointing authority and has no security of tenure. Therefore, there is no corporate governance in introducing a flawed system, where a Bill is passed and it is challenged before the courts of law on its constitutionality.

Mr Speaker, in this report, part of the object of the Bills is that the proposed board can delegate or supervise the DPP. In what capacity should a team of unconstitutional office bearers delegate authority to a constitutional office? No wonder all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee did not support this Bill.

Mr Speaker, there is nowhere where this is practiced. For example, according to the Bank of Zambia Act, the Governor of the Bank of Zambia (BOZ) is the chairman of the board. So, where are we getting the practice of wanting to create a position of someone who qualifies to be DPP at the National Prosecutions Authority (NPA)? This Bill does not in any angle or for intents and purposes, fit to provide any structure of corporate governance. The Legal Aid Board (LAB) is there to help citizens who cannot afford legal representation. Now, why do we want someone from LAB to sit on the NPA board, when the NPA is the sole prosecutor of criminal law? So, if someone is being represented by LAB in court and the NPA is prosecuting, that is conflict of interest. If someone applies for legal aid at LAB, and the same LAB sits on the NPA board, how do we introduce corporate governance?

Mr Speaker, I want to submit that there is no mischief in the current setup. The introduction of this Bill does not explain what mischief is in the current setup. What is this Bill trying to cure? Nothing. It is actually trying to introduce something that may need to be cured by the courts because the constitutionality of this Bill can easily be challenged.

Sir, Article 180(7) of the Constitution says that the Office of the DPP is not subject to supervision. So, if there is mischief that has been observed in the Office of the DPP, the cure begins in the Constitution. So, the issue is, if we want to give the DPP a supervisor, this is what must be amended (holding the copy of the Constitution in his hand), and not the Act. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Any law that is contrary to it is null and void.

So, we must be serious and accept the fact that serious people and reputable institutions appeared before your Committee and raised concerns that this Bill be deferred. This is in the interest of upholding constitutionalism and the rule of law, which are the bedrock of any functional democracy.

Mr Speaker, the office of the DPP should ensure that the presumption of innocence is overseen in this country through prosecution that is devoid of interference either by actors from the Executive or the Civil Society.

Mr Speaker, therefore, in submitting and agreeing with the report from your Committee, I want to say that I do not support this Bill. I do not support the adducing of corporate governance as the purpose of introducing a de facto board and making the DPP an ex-official. It is very clear that we have other Acts such as the Bank of Zambia Act and we have seen that the setup is working. Therefore, there is no mischief that this Bill seeks to cure.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

We will keep alternating.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for allowing me an opportunity to make comments on the Bill proposed by the Government. I want to appreciate the debate by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalolo, which was spot on.

Mr Speaker, I want to place it on record that when all of us here gathered to take office, the first thing we do is to take oath. In that oath, what stands out is the defense of the supreme document of the land, which is the Constitution. Anything that undermines the Constitution must be dealt with by ourselves here because we swore to defend the Constitution.

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I am privileged, like the comrade who is trying to make comments, to have been present when the Articles in this Constitution (holding a copy of the Constitution in his hand) were scrutinised in this august House throughout the night and the rationale behind some of these Articles is still lingering in my mind.

Mr Speaker, your Committee, which is a mini-Parliament has made critical recommendations regarding this Bill. Your Committee has emphasised the point that the Office of the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) is a peculiar office and its peculiarity is born from Article 180(3) and (7) of the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, to be clear of what your Committee referred to, I seek your indulgence. I will quote the Constitution. Article 180(3) of the Constituting reads:

“(3) The Director of Public Prosecutions is the chief prosecutor for the Government and head of the National Prosecutions Authority.”

Mr Speaker, this is as was ably elaborated by the hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Speaker, Article 180(7) of the Constitution, further, reads;

“(7) The Director of Public Prosecutions shall not be subject to the direction or control of a person or an authority in the performance of the functions of that office, except that the Director of Public Prosecutions shall have regard to the public interest, administration of justice, the integrity of the judicial system and the need to prevent and avoid abuse of the legal process.”

Mr Speaker, Article 180(8) of the Constitution, goes to say:

“(8) The functions of the Director of Public Prosecutions may be exercised in person or by a public officer or legal practitioner, authorised by the Director of Public Prosecutions, acting under the general or special instructions of the Director of Public Prosecutions.”

It is clear, Mr Speaker. The way the office of the DPP has been structured is in conformity with this constitutional provision.

So, any attempt by the Government to introduce new chairmanship as is being proposed, hon. Minister, we, who have taken an oath to defend this Constitution, will not be with you.

In acknowledging the recommendations of the Committee, I wish to state that we have been on that side (right side), Mr Speaker, and we have witnessed bills being deferred at second reading.

So, hon. Minister, acknowledging the recommendations of the report will not mean the Government losing anything. All the Committee is saying is that we should have a thorough consultative process that will take care of some of the concerns that have been raised.

Mr Speaker, the institutions that submitted before your Committee, renowned institutions and among them, the Zambia Law Development Commission, the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), the University of Zambia (UNZA), the Public Protector and, indeed, the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) chambers, all recommended, as we have heard from your Committee, that the Bill be deferred.

We do not want the hon. Minister of Justice to make wrong history, …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Stick to the Bill.

Mr Kampyongo: This is the Bill I am debating, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Yes, but as you are debating, you keep referring to the hon. Minister. Refer to the Bill.

Mr Kampyongo: Yes! He is the sponsor of the Bill.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Listen –

Mr Chitotela interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, do not debate while seated, Hon. Chitotela. Do not try to be on top of issues whilst you are there.

Hon. Members, what I am saying is that all the debates should be directed at the Bill. Even though the hon. Minister is the mover of this Bill and is the one who has presented this Bill, let us direct all our energy to the Bill.

Hon. UPND Members: Correct!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us, also, avoid debating whilst seated.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: If you try to make my job difficult –

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, continue.

Mr Kampyongo: Hon. Mr Speaker, be assured that is it not our intention to make your work difficult. Likewise, we would not want you to make our work difficult. Let us collaborate.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, that said, I want to inform to the hon. Minister that asking him to defer this Bill as recommended by your Committee does not make him lose anything. The Committee, which interacted with most of the stakeholders that I have referred to, also made references to other jurisdictions. So, my colleagues and I, as responsible hon. Members, are going to defend the Constitution. We assure the hon. Minister that if he accepts to go by the recommendations, we shall be with him when he brings back the Bill that will be acceptable to all stakeholders.

Mr Speaker, we do not want to be hon. Members who are going to enact laws –

Mr Speaker, one of the objectives is that we must not enact laws that are at variance with the supreme law, which is the Constitution. We should not, also, enact laws that are in conflict with one another. That is our responsibility as legislators. So, we are not going to abdicate our role and allow ourselves to be bulldozed. We should not allow ourselves to be taken to the Constitutional Court, for example, to interpret what we have put as a supreme document.

Mr Speaker, we are of the considered view that this Bill be deferred for further consultations as recommended by your Committee. I will be shocked to see that this House has started changing its modus operandi because what we go with are recommendations of your Committee. At no point are we supposed to go against that route. The danger of doing so is that all members of your Committee will be hard-pressed against the wall when they are supposed to perform their functions as assigned to them. Why should we ask hon. Members not to conflict themselves? This matter is constitutional, and this arm of the Government is critical to ensuring that the laws we pass for our people are acceptable by society.

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I still urge the hon. Minister to be considerate. He is not losing anything. I was an hon. Minister and I deferred bills. It is possible that he can do the same.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Mr Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on behalf of the people of Luena, on this very important amendment Bill.

Mr Speaker, it is important when we are dealing with issues this serious that we are not emotional. We need to be calm, focused and meticulous. So, let us start with what the situation is at the moment. Indeed, the situation as the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu has articulated is that the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) is a creature of the Constitution under Article 180, and what he already referred to, indeed, applies. In order to bring into effect what the Constitution has in Article 180, the National Prosecution Authority Act, No. 34 of 2010, was passed. This is what it provides for as the situation stands, currently, in Section (7). It says:

“There is hereby constituted a Board of the Authority which shall consist of the following members appointed by the Minister: …”

Mr Speaker, that is what the law says at the moment. So, there is already a provision for a board as we sit now. The members of the board are as follows: –

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: There is an indication for a point of order.

Hon. UPND Members: Mmm! How?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to raise a point of order. Standing Order No. 65 tells us to be factual as we debate. The debater is referring to the National Prosecution Authority Act, No. 34 of 2010, when the Constitution as referred to by the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu and hon. Member for Nalolo was passed in 2016. Is he, therefore, in order to contradict himself by saying that the provisions of the Constitution of 2016 are as referred to in the law that was passed in 2010, six years before the Constitution was established?

I seek your ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I reserve my ruling on that point of order.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Ema Speakers, continue!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Member for Luena, continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Mr Speaker, I am reading from the Act and not the Constitution. The National Prosecutions Act, No. 34 of 2010, Section 7(1) says,

“There is hereby constituted a Board of the Authority which shall consist of the following members appointed by the Minister:

the Director of Public Prosecutions, who shall be the Chairperson;
a representative of the Attorney-General, who shall be the Vice-Chairperson;
the Director of Administration of the Authority, who shall be the Secretary;
a representative of the Public Service Management Division;
a representative of the Ministry responsible for labour; and
two other persons appointed by the Minister.”

Mr Speaker, the board referred to is the National Prosecution Authority (NPA) board. The point we are bringing to the fore is that there is already a provision for the board. What is being proposed in the amendment is borne from our experience.

Mr Speaker, in as much as the NPA and the Office of the Direct of Public Prosecution (DPP) may be interconnected, they have separate functions. We need to be clear there. The DPP makes decisions independent of anybody including this board which already exists.

Mr Speaker, however, we need to learn from our history. Our history has taught us that we have had the DPPs who have not complied with the Constitutional provisions. Article 180(7) of the Constitution says,

“The Director of Public Prosecutions shall not be subject to the direction or control of a person or an authority in the performance of the functions of that office, except that the Director of Public Prosecutions shall have regard to the public interest, administration of justice, the integrity of the judicial system and the need to prevent and avoid abuse of the legal process.”

Mr Speaker, there are things that the DPP must comply with. In order to ensure that the DPP complies with those things, we have to look at what structures have been put in place. We have had experiences in this country that should inform our lessons from history. A nation that does not learn from its history is bound to repeat the mistakes. We have had a DPP in the country who entered a nolle prosequi in his own case.

Hon. UPND Members interjected.

Mr Anakoka: Exactly! Precisely, since we have had situations where the DPPs needed to be checked, it is for that reason that this particular amendment is only suggesting that the chairmanship of this board be changed. The board already exists. The board is not going to be there to supervise. There is nowhere in the amendment that has been proposed here, where it says that the board is going to supervise the DPP. So, let us not throw words around in order to make people out there think that the Constitution is being undermined. If people read the amendment Bill in full and the Constitution, they will see that there is nothing intended in this Bill to undermine the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, from the stakeholders who are currently members of the board, do we have any whom we want to add or not add for specific reasons? That way, we will be having a focused debate. To suggest that the existence of the board is undermining the Constitution, when currently, the law already provides for the existence of the board, is to be missing the debate. So, let us focus ourselves in terms of specifics that we think must be considered.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

Let us avoid debating while seated. If you want to debate, you will be given an opportunity. May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. UPND Member: Senior Lawyer!

Mr Anakoka: Mr Speaker, the independence that the DPP enjoys – My gadget is letting me down.

Mr Speaker, nonetheless, the independence that the DPP enjoys is for the fair dispensation of justice and not for the benefit of an individual. Therefore, it is necessary to have controls of some kind. The board was created to support the office but it had no functions. That is what has been missing in this Act. That is a recipe for anarchy. So, now that there are proposed functions and amendments to the membership of this board, let us talk about where we need to make additions or subtractions. The Act as it sits now, like we have said before, provides for the existence of this board. So, the debate should not be premised on the basis that there has not been a board. The board has been there but it had no functions. So, let us deal with what this board should be doing and the effectiveness in the changes that are being proposed in this amendment Bill.

Mr Speaker, let me conclude by saying that this being an emotive subject, it is important that we do not run with it on the basis of just shouting, “Lion, lion, the Constitution is being undermined.” The Constitutional integrity and powers that the DPP’s office enjoys, are still spelled out in the Constitution.

Hon. UPND Member: Well-intact!

Mr Anakoka: It is intact. No one is suggesting that the Constitution should be touched as a result of this subordinate Act. With these few words, I support the Bill as proposed by the hon. Minister of Justice.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for the opportunity to add a voice to this conversation we are having. I will endeavour not to be emotional as suggested by the hon. Member for Luena.

Mr Speaker, in this Parliament, I have witnessed the hon. Minister of Education withdraw a Bill after recommendations by your Committee on Education, Science and Technology. There is nothing sinister about the intention of the hon. Minister of Justice to propose this amendment. The hon. Minister of Justice should not even feel ashamed that he attempted to table this amendment. He should actually walk with his head very high. However, there is everything normal to do what a statesman did, the hon. Minister of Education –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, let us stick to the Bill. There is a Bill on the Floor.

Mr B. Mpundu: Mr Speaker, this is a Bill.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: If you want to puncher the Motion, do so. If you want to dissect it the way you would want, do so in the manner that is befitting to the Floor of the House. There are rules and let us ensure that we speak to the Motion.

Mr B. Mpundu: The Speaker will not guide me on how to debate. This is my style.

Hon. UPND Members interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You are referring to the hon. Minister of Education and what note. That is irrelevant, hon. Member.

Mr B. Mpundu: Is there anything wrong? There is nothing wrong, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, for you to proceed, continue as guided.

Mr B. Mpundu: Mr Speaker, there is precedence that has been set in this House that when a Bill is rejected by your Committee, boldly, the minister moving such an amendment Bill withdraws or defers it. There is nothing sinister. It is not the first time that is happening.

Mr Speaker, just for the sake of the bigger Parliament out there who may not understand what we are talking about, the basic principles of separation of power include the three arms of the Government. In here, we are one of the arms. We enact the law. The Executive through the law enforcement agencies enforces the law. The judiciary acts like a referee.

Mr Speaker, I want to liken this debate to what happens on the football pitch. The referee whom I want to refer to as the judiciary checks whether people are outrageous in their actions or not. The National Prosecution Authority (NPA) is an integral part in the dispensation of justice and enforcement of our laws. At the helm of the prosecution of individuals who may have errored in relation to the law is the DPP.

Mr Speaker, the DPP is like the coach who decides who must be on the pitch or withdrawn. In this case, the DPP decides which case must be prosecuted or withdrawn. That is why in the wisdom of parliamentarians who were here before us, they saw the need for autonomy and independence in the office of that man or woman who is going to be deciding on whom to prosecuted or withdraw from the courts.

Sir, if they take away that autonomy and independence, they will subject this office to making irrational decisions as to which case should be prosecuted or not. They will subject the office of the DPP to manipulation because corporate governance –

Mr Speaker, I sat on a Committee that scrutinised the proposed amendment of the Bank of Zambia Act. When it was suggested that the Bank of Zambia (BOZ) Governor must be the board chairperson of the board, our argument was that that was going to conflict with corporate governance. Here we are. Today, the Bank of Zambia Bill has placed the Bank of Zambia at the helm of the board. There is nothing different from what we are discussing today. What people are suggesting and what we would have loved the hon. Minister to do is to maybe, propose changes in terms of the composition of the board of the NPA and leave the DPP to still head this board.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: That way, we would not even be discussing the issue of contravening the Constitution. Mr Speaker, our solemn number one responsibility is to defend and protect the Constitution before we subscribe to the dictates of our political aspirations. This is why we come to Parliament at the behest of the people who elected us. As we sit in this Parliament, the people out there watch us.

Mr Speaker, you know that we do not enact laws of our own volition. We enact laws that conform to the aspirations of the people who sponsored us to come to this Parliament.

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: What happens, Mr Speaker, is that when there is a proposal for any law to be enacted or amended, a Committee to scrutinise that law is constituted. When scrutinising the law, we engage the stakeholders on whether it is correct for us to proceed with the enactment of the law. When the people reject the proposed amendment, we must be magnanimous to come to this House and say, “Mr Speaker, the attempt was wrong.” Now, if we go against the aspirations of the people we represent, in whose interest are we going to be enacting the law? In this case, for the record of Parliament, the DPP, the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), the Law Development Commission (LDC), and academicians at the University of Zambia (UNZA) appeared before your Committee and unanimously said that the amendment would contravene the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, your Committee has read the report of the Bill and has suggested that it would be in the best interest of the nation that we deferred this particular amendment. So, in whose interest then, would we be proceeding to amend this law?

Mr Speaker, we do not enact laws based on emotions or personal interests. We enact laws to conform to the aspirations of the people out there. Those people came to sit before your Committee and recommended that if we proceed with the amendment, we would have been attempting to usurp the authority and power of the people whom we so represent. I put it to this House that there is nothing wrong in attempting to amend a law. Any hon. Minister who brings a law that seems to be against the people must be magnanimous to say, “Wait a minute. I will go back and engage stakeholders.” That way, we will celebrate such a gallant man.

Mr Speaker, I put it to you that there is nothing wrong or sinister with the proposal by the hon. Minister of Justice. What I would like to ask of him is perhaps, to reconsider the proposal and bring it back to this House. I will be the first one to support it if he aims at making a proposal to simply change the composition of this board.

Mr Speaker, the people of Nkana have spoken through me.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for this opportunity to debate this particular report. In debating this particular report, allow me to state that I do agree with the recommendations by your Committee that this particular Bill must be deferred.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, we swore to protect the Constitution. We swore allegiance to His Excellency the President. These are the two oaths that we took on the Floor of this House. This particular Bill, Mr Speaker, seeks to dilute the powers of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP).

Mr Speaker, there can be no good people; there can only be good institutions. The reason we invest in institutions is because there can never be good people, but only good institutions. Allow me to state that Section 7 of the Law as it stands, it says that the DPP is the chairperson of this particular board. That already insulates any attempt to arm-twist this very important institution in the life of justice for our country.

Mr Speaker, if we go to the Bill, among the functions of the board and 15(a) in particular, it talks about approving the policies. I have no problems with policies. It also talks about programmes and strategies of the authority. This is an attempt to undermine a critical institution in this particular country.

Mr Speaker, we say, “Vox Populi, Vox Dei”. This means that the voice of the people is the voice of God. What is the purposiveness of having your Committee? What is the purposiveness of drawing stakeholders from a wider section of society to speak to an issue? We can only do that if we are here to just rubber stamp, but those of us who took the oath seriously will say that we stand to protect this particular office, which is a very critical office in the function of justice in this country.

Mr Speaker, I do not want to respond to my good brother, Hon. Anakoka, but if we dive into history, we will see that the office of the DPP has time and again, come into conflict with the state. It is not just with the previous regime but also, with the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and the United National Independence Party (UNIP) regimes. This is why we need to safeguard and protect this office because politics by extension would control this particular office. All of us here are students of politics but the sacred duty we have is to protect the Constitution. Posterity demands that we defend this Constitution and this particular office.

Sir, the submissions made on the Floor of this House by various hon. Members of this House including the hon. Member for Nalolo whose submission I wish to adopt as mine, word for word, are that this particular Bill be withdrawn and let there be more consultation so that as we touch on justice, all of us can say that we agreed on one particular issue. This issue does not need to take us to the voting stage or become controversial. The people have spoken and one of the attributes of democracy is the ability to listen.

Mr Speaker, I do not wish to waste much of your time. I just want to place on record that the people of Kanchibiya do agree with the recommendations of your Committee and the submissions made by the respective stakeholders such as the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), the University of Zambia (UNZA) and many others, who stated that this particular provision may cause trouble by diluting the powers and functions of the DPP.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I wish to submit.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity, as I represent the people of Mbabala, to put one or two issues to the debate of this very important Bill which is on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, in debating this Bill, I want to restrict myself to just a few important matters that needed to be handled by the National Prosecution Authority Bill. A few years ago, we saw ten prosecutors who went to the National Prosecution Authority (NPA) headquarters requesting for their conditions of service to be supported. These prosecutors, the young men and women we used to be with at the universities were sent to far-flung areas. They were sent to far-flung districts that had no services and facilities.

Mr Speaker, we have prosecutors in the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and many other law enforcement agencies. These prosecutors are not aligned. They need alignment. Recently, there was a prosecutor who was killed in cold blood, Mr Nsama Nsama, just next door to his office. We need closure to these wanton killings by the state in the previous regime.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Munsanje: Mr Speaker, I wanted to restrict my debate to those very important matters that need to be investigated, prosecuted and closed so that the families can also have closure.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for –

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

Hon. Mtayachalo and the group there.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member may continue. Let us ensure that we stick to the Bill on the Floor.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, I was just thanking you for according me an opportunity to tender my thoughts on the debate of the Bill under consideration, which I must say I do not support. I intend to speak briefly under three thematic areas. I will speak in defense of the Constitution, in support of good corporate governance and lastly, in support of the spirit to heed advice.

Mr Speaker, this is our Constitution. (Mr Kafwaya waved the Constitution at the hon. Members). Let me quote from my own oath, which I took on the Clerk’s Table. “I, Mutotwe Kafwaya, having been elected Member of Parliament for Lunte Constituency, do swear that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Zambia as by law established.”

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, I cannot deviate from my own oath and this is why it is reflected in Article 180(7), which says,

“The Director of Public Prosecutions shall not be subject to the direction or control of a person or an authority in the performance of the functions of that office …”

Madam Speaker, the Bill under consideration in clause 3, says that the Board may, by direction in writing and on conditions that the Board considers necessary, delegate to the Director of Public Prosecutions any of the Board’s functions under this Act.

Mr Speaker, I am sorry because this contradicts the Constitution. Under my pledge to uphold this Constitution, I am unable to proceed to tender support to this Bill because it clearly contradicts the Constitution. I have listened to all my hon. Colleagues who have tendered their submissions and one of them said that there is an exception to this. Let me read that part where it talks about exceptions under Article 180(7). It says,

“… except that the Director of Public Prosecutions shall have regard to the public interest, administration of justice, the integrity of the judicial system and the need to prevent and avoid abuse of the legal process.”

Mr Speaker, getting directions from the Board is not part of the explicit exceptions listed in Article 180(7). Therefore, considering my defense of the Constitution, I will proceed by declaring once again that I am unable to support this Bill.

Mr Speaker, under my support for good corporate governance, I wish to state that the highest level of good corporate governance is by obeying the Constitution. One cannot disobey the Constitution and claim that one has good corporate governance. Therefore, those who want to avoid the Constitutional provisions are not promoting good governance. Instead, they are promoting bad governance.

Mr Speaker, the current Act has a secretary in place but this Bill we are considering now proposes to abolish the position of a secretary on the Board. I may put the question to those who are proposing. Who then will be recording the proceedings of that Board? Who then will be communicating the instructions that the board intends to be making to the DPP? I will easily conclude that in fact, this Bill proposes a structure of governance, which is inappropriate.

Mr Speaker, let me quickly submit under my last thematic area where I choose to talk about heeding advice. If the Government does not listen to what the DPP is saying on the Bill that will affect his office, where will it draw its wisdom from? If it disregards what the UNZA, School of Law, is saying concerning the promulgation of the law, where will it obtain its wisdom from? If the DPP says that this is not the way to proceed, why will the Government not listen to advise? If the Government does not listen to LAZ, the body that looks after all the lawyers and judges in this country, where will it draw wisdom from? Let me ask hon. Colleague, Mr Binwell Mpundu a question. If this law will not serve to the expectations of these stakeholders, in whose interest will the Government promulgate it?

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we have a lot of business at hand. We still have three more Bills and we do not have enough time. So, I will ask the hon. Minister of Justice to respond.

Interruptions

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.): Madam Speaker, let me begin by asserting that each and every one of us did swear the same oath to protect the Constitution. Having a particular point of view with regard to constitutional interpretation does not suggest that one has taken a higher stand in the protection of the Constitution. We are all entitled to different views. That is why the wisdom of this House must prevail at the end of the day in promulgating laws and that shall happen.

Mr Speaker, it has been suggested numerously by some of the hon. Members that took the Floor that there has been a suggestion of a constitutional breach in the manner in which the draft Bill or the Bill that is before the Floor of the House today was put forward.

Mr Speaker, before I address that particular misnomer, let me thank my hon. Colleagues, the honourable chairperson of the Committee and the hon. Member for Nalolo, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, the hon. Member for Luena, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa, the hon. Member for Kanchibiya, hon. Member for Mbala and the hon. Member for Lunte, for their flowery debate on the matter before the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, the question before us is whether or not the current Bill should go through Second Reading. That is the question that this House must resolve this afternoon. The report of the Committee, with due respect, is not supported by the Government because of the matters that I will put forward today.

Sir, firstly, there is no such thing as a constitutional breach in the manner in which this Bill has been proposed. The Constitution is absolutely clear as to the role and function of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), as set out in Article 180 of the Constitution that many of my hon. Colleagues have referred to. There is no suggestion by any way or means in the draft Bill that is before the Floor of the House today that the Constitution be abrogated. What is the function of the DPP? It is to prosecute. The function of the DPP is as chief prosecutor on behalf of the Government.

Mr Speaker, not a single hon. Member that has debated this particular item today has suggested in what manner the draft Bill says the DPP will be required by the board not to enter a nolle prosequi or that the DPP will be asked to prosecute in a particular function. Nowhere in the Bill is there any such provision.

Mr Speaker, to the contrary, what we have now, and as the hon. Member for Luena pointed out, is that the current Act which prescribes what the National Prosecutions Authority (NPA) can do simply provides for a board. Now let us also be clear on the corporate governance aspects of this. The suggestion by those that believe the DPP must be chair of that board, which is already provided for in the law, is that the DPP speaks alone on the board. He or she is the sole vote and speaker. That is further from the truth than it could possibly be because a board makes a collective decision. This is simple basic corporate governance.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: This is simple basic corporate governance, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Mr Speaker, a board is an institution that works in collaboration. So, no one person should be able to sway what the board determines and decides. Already the law provides for a board. What we are doing is building extra safeguards in saying that the DPP as the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the institution should not come and give him or herself a report when sitting as board chairperson or as a member of the board. That is contrary to any modern corporate governance tenets that anyone can follow.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: The DPP, as in any other board, has to make a report in his or her capacity as chief executive and then what we have now is that the DPP makes a report to him or herself. Where does that happen? What corporate governance is that? Once again, this is about basic tenets.

Mr Speaker, let us also speak to the fact that we have institutions that play a role in matters of the end-to-end criminal justice process.

Mr Nkandu: Ema lawyers aya!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: The Legal Aid Board has been put on the board as a stakeholder to be able to tell the board the ways in which it functions in the prosecution of criminal matters. It is first-hand information that will get to the board as a whole to understand the challenges that are being undertaken in the criminal justice process.

Mr Speaker, so, what better way of doing so than by incorporating these matters? In short, there is no constitutional breach and this Bill is progressive.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to raise this procedural point of order –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister.

You know that there is time that is attached to this function. The five minutes time has not elapsed. So, we are still observing the five minutes. The bells are still ringing. So, let us observe time as such.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Close the bar, clear the lobbies and lock the doors.

The Hon. Minister for Southern Province may continue.

Mr Mweetwa: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity.

Mr Speaker, my point of order is predicated upon the traditions, customs and precedents of this House. I have noted that as people are preparing to vote on this Motion, certain hon. Members are being intimidated that they cannot vote because they were members of the Committee.

Mr Speaker, in 2016, I was Chairperson of the Committee that received submissions on the constitutional amendments, which overwhelmingly rejected those constitutional amendments. However, when we came to this House, the Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Members who had voted against the constitutional amendments in Committee came to this House and somersaulted. That is on record because this is a House of order and not disorder.

Hon. PF Members: Which Standing Order?

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, is this House, therefore, in order to proceed in a manner which cannot be predictable?

Mr Speaker, I have already indicated that I am rising based on the precedents.

Hon. PF Members: No! Standing Order!

Mr Mweetwa: Some of these people cannot understand.

Hon. PF Members: Which Standing Order?

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I need your very serious ruling on this matter because the rights of your hon. Members to be enjoyed, which includes voting, cannot be mutilated by the whims and caprices of a few individuals.

I seek your guidance, Mr Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Which Standing Order?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

I will ask the House to give me a few minutes so that I consult the Clerks-at-the-Table.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Resume your seat hon. Member.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, this is how we will proceed. Apparently, this is not a committee report which requires to be adopted by the House. It is a Bill that has to be passed to the next stage. As such, at this stage, we will proceed to vote so that it goes to the next stage. However, I will seek more clarification on which hon. Members will be part of the electoral college. I say so because we can end up conflicting ourselves because some hon. Members were part of the Committee that passed the report. I will therefore, seek further technical advice on this issue. Give me a bit of time so that I do not make mistakes, ayi?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker conferred with the Clerk.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, guidance has been given. All the hon. Members in the House are free to vote on the Bill.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: We will proceed as such.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: On a point of order!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No points of order now.

The House will now vote electronically using the Bosch multimedia units.

Question that the National Prosecution Authority (Amendment) Bill, 2023, be read a second time put and the House voted.

Ayes – (55)

Mr Amutike

Mr Anakoka

Mr Emmanuel Banda

Mr Chaatila

Mr Chikote

Mr Chinkuli

Mr Haimbe

Ms Halwiindi

Mr Hamwaata

Mr Kalila

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kanengo

Ms Kasanda

Mr Katakwe

Mr Lihefu

Mr Mabeta

Mr Malambo

Ms Masebo

Mr Matambo

Mr Mbao

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mposha

Mr Mubanga

Mr Mubika

Mr Muchima

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mulaliki

Mr C. Mulenga

Mr Mulunda

Ms Mulyata

Ms Munashabantu

Mr Munsanje

Mr Mutelo

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwene

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ngowani

Mr Nkandu

Mr Nkombo

Mr Nkulukusa

Mr Nzovu

Ms Sabao

Mr Samakayi

Ms Sefulo

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sikazwe

Mr Simbao

Mr Simushi

Mr Simutowe

Mr Simuzingili

Ms Tambatamba

Mr Tayali

Mr Tayengwa

Noes – (49)

Mr Ackleo I. A. Banda

Mr Allen Banda

Mr Emmanuel J. Banda

Mr Chala

Mr Chibombwe

Mr J. Chibuye

Dr Chilufya

Ms Chisenga

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chonde

Mr E. Daka

Mr J. Daka

Mr Kabaso

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalimi

Mr Kalobo

Mr Kampyongo

Mr Kandafula

Mr Kang’ombe

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katotobwe

Mr Lungu

Ms Lungu

Ms Mabonga

Mr Mabumba

Mr B. Mpundu

Mr Mtayachalo

Mr Mundubile

Mr Mung’andu

Mr Mushanga

Mr Elias M. Musonda

Mr Mutale

Mr Mwale

Ms S. Mwamba

Mr Mwambazi

Dr Mwanza

Mr Mwila

Ms Nakaponda

Mr P. Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Shakafuswa

Mr Simumba

Mr E. Tembo

Mr M. K. Tembo

Mr Twasa

Mr Wamunyima

Mr Menyani Zulu

Abstentions – Nil

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 13^th July, 2023.

THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION BILL, 2023

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, Article 230 of the Constitution of Zambia, Cap 1 of the Laws of Zambia provides for the establishment of the Human Rights Commission and mandates the Commission to among others, investigate and report on the observance of rights and freedoms, take necessary steps to secure appropriate redress where rights and freedoms are violated and carry out research on rights and freedoms and related matters.

Mr Speaker, the Human Rights Commission Bill, 2023 seeks to provide for the membership, functions, operations and financial management of the Human Rights Commission, repeal and replace the Human Rights Commission Act, Cap 48 of the Laws of Zambia. The Bill is very progressive as it seeks to inter-alia:

repeal and replace the Human Rights Commission Act so as to align the Act with the Constitution, as amended in 2016, and the Emoluments Commission Act, No. 1 of 2022;
comply with the United Nations (UN) Paris Principles relating to the status of national human rights institutions;
broaden and strengthen the functions of the commission by, among others –

including the power to investigate complaints of human rights violations and abuses in the country;
providing the manner for lodging a complaint and the holding of an inquiry in human rights violations and abuses; and
permitting the commission to make recommendations to an appropriate authority to redress a human rights violation or abuse;

Mr Speaker, the Bill before the Floor of the House also seeks to ensure appropriate competencies in the membership of the commission by requiring a member of the commission to have a degree from a higher education institution which is registered under the Higher Education Act, No. 4 of 2013, and recognised by the Zambia Qualifications Authority Act, No. 13 of 2011; and limit the tenure of office for a member of the commission to six years.

Mr Speaker, in addition to the above, I am delighted to report to this House that we have taken note of the concerns that were raised by stakeholders, which among others, are as follows:

that the Human Rights Commission (HRC) should only report to the National Assembly as provided for in Article 241(e) of the Constitution. It is imperative to note that Article 241(e) does not prohibit the HRC from sending a report to any other person or institution but merely provides a report to the National Assembly of Zambia as a minimum requirement. As such, it is within the law to put an additional requirement for the HRC to send a report to the Executive. In part, the rationale behind that is to enable the Executive to take note of the activities of the HRC as the appointing authority;
that the position of deputy director be provided in the Bill. Our response to that concern is that the Government policy on legislation providing organisational structure should be avoided to provide institutions the latitude to determine the requisite positions required apart from the position of Director-General and Secretary, which should be explicitly stated in the law as provided under Clause 11(4) of the Bill. This ensures that an institution is accorded the necessary flexibility to change the organisational structure without having to amend the law. I must hasten to mention that the Bill provides for transitional provisions that safeguard existing positions;
that the autonomy of the HRC, as provided for in Section 3 of the current Act should have been maintained. Our response to that concern is that, the Constitution under Article 216(a) and (b) provides for the autonomy of all commissions, which includes the HRC, and there is no need of repeating that particular provision, especially considering the fact that it is already sitting in the supreme law of the land, the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is as a result of wide stakeholder consultations and is very progressive as it provides a legal framework that strengthens and aligns the operations and functions of the HRC with other regional and global national human rights institutions.

I, therefore, humbly urge hon. Members of this august House to support it wholeheartedly.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move,

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Lungu (Chawama): Mr Speaker, your Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance was tasked to scrutinise the Human Rights Commission Bill, 2023, referred to it by the House on 30^th May, 2023.

Mr Speaker, in carrying out this important task, your Committee interacted with various stakeholders. The proposed Bill seeks to provide for the membership, functions, operations and financial management of the Human Rights Commission (HRC) and to repeal and replace the Human Rights Commission Act, 1996. Mr Speaker, the House may recall that following the constitutional amendments of 2016, the mandate of the HRC was broadened and included some of the principles relating to the promotion and protection of human rights by national human rights institutions as promulgated in the United Nations (UN) Paris Principles.

The expansion of the HRC mandate inevitably required a review of the principle legislation, in this case, the Human Rights Act No. 39, of 1996. It is against this background that the Human Rights Commission Bill was presented to the House and subsequently to the Committee for scrutiny.

Mr Speaker, I wish to state, from the outset, that the Bill received overwhelming support from stakeholders, and as such the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance also fully supports it. While supporting the Bill, let me bring to the attention of the House some concerns raised by stakeholders, which have been captured in the Committee’s report. While the Committee welcomes broadening of the mandate of the HRC as proposed in Clause (6) of the Bill, it agrees with stakeholders that in line with the Paris Principles, this amendment should be matched with a provision that will mandate the Commission to create and publish an annual human rights action plan to monitor progress on the protection and promotion of human rights in the country.

Further, Mr Speaker, the Committee observes that under Clause (7) of the Bill relating to the composition of the membership of the Commission, the Bill is silent on the delivery of the membership. The Committee is of the view that since one of the fundamental principles of human rights is non-discrimination, the membership should be inclusive of persons with disabilities and the youth, and that it should mainstream gender so that there is equitable representation between the gender divide.

Mr Speaker, stakeholders also observed that Clause 19(4) of the Bill increased the timeframe within which complaints and allegations could be brought to the attention of the Commission. They noted that while, generally, this was a progressive provision, it ties into the right to redress and access to justice. The term ‘exceptional circumstances’ is not defined by the Bill nor does it provide guidance as to what could amount to exceptional circumstances. In this regard, the Committee recommends that the Bill should define or give guidance on what would constitute or amount to exceptional circumstances and what would warrant the Commission to extend the time in which complaints may be received.

As I end, Mr Speaker, I would be failing in my duties if I do not pay tribute to the stakeholders who rendered valuable written and oral submissions to the Committee during its deliberations. May I also thank you, Hon. Mr Speaker, and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support and services rendered to the Committee during the meetings.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, I will place on record that this is a non-controversial Bill that deserves the support of all hon. Members. The report speaks to broadening the mandate of the Human Rights Commission (HRC), and this is very important. I think we must be able to move with the times as well as ensure that we are in tandem with the Paris Declaration as captured by the report.

Mr Speaker, the other recommendation by the Committee speaks to diversity in terms of composition. It is important that as the composition of the HRC is being looked at, particular attention is paid to people with disabilities and young people, and also ensuring that gender mainstreaming is adhered to.

The other recommendation, Mr Speaker, speaks to the removal of a commissioner by the President. It also goes further to state that the Bill provides grounds on which a commissioner can be removed. I think this is also very progressive.

So, with those few remarks, Mr Speaker, this is a progress Bill, and the people of Kanchibiya support it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Munsanje (Mbala): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you so much for giving me the opportunity on behalf of the good people of Mbabala to add my comment on the Bill at hand, the Human Rights Commission (HRC).

Mr Speaker, I wish to support the diversity and inclusion in line with Zambia’s signatory to the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), of living no one behind and ensuring that persons with disabilities are part and parcel of the HRC. I think this has been ably demonstrated by His Excellency President Hakainde Hichilema, by appointing persons with disabilities to the HRC and this must remain so.

Mr Speaker, I also want to see diversity in terms of women or gender representation as well as youths. This adds value to the issues that we have to solve as persons who have an interest in that area.

Mr Speaker, my final point in this short submission is on the cry by certain citizens that when they steal and they are caught, they go to court and start crying about human rights. That has to come to a stop because human rights are about our rights as citizens to various services and they are inalienable. As such, the whole issue of crying when one has committed a crime on human rights must be stopped. The commission and the law must be clearly defined so that we stop such characters from misusing our country and human rights angle.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

The hon. Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe): Mr Speaker, mine contribution is to merely recognise the chairperson of the report, the hon. Member for Chawama and the debaters, the hon. Member for Kanchibiya and the hon. Member for Mbala. I want to thank them for their progressive suggestion which we shall take on board going forward.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 13^th July, 2023.

THE ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT (Amendment) BILL, 2023

The Minister of Green Economy and Environment (Eng. Nzovu): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to make a statement on the Environmental Management Bill, No. 6 of 2023. Allow me also to thank your distinguished Committee for the valued and transparent consultations undertaken on the ramifications of the Bill. This Bill is part of the process of strengthening the legal and institutional framework governing environmental management in Zambia. The Bill responds to the New Dawn Government’s intention to provide a sustainable and green economy framework to facilitate investments in the environmental sector that allows for low carbon emissions, resource efficiency and social inclusiveness.

Mr Speaker, the Environmental Management Act was enacted in 2011 to among others, provide for integration; provide for protection and conservation of the environment; and to provide for the sustainable management and use of natural resources. At the time of its enactment, the Act was relevant to the times and was a progressive law in the protection of the environment. However, over the years, the Act has fallen behind in many aspects of environmental management. This may be attributed to the passage of time …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

The House adjourned at 1841 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 7^th July, 2023.

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Thursday, 6th July, 2023

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