Tuesday, 20^th June, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other Government business, the Minister of Defence, Hon. Ambrose L. Lufuma, MP, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House from today 20^th June, 2023 until further notice.

I thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

Madam Speaker: I have seen that there are five indications for matters of urgent public importance. Depending on how we proceed, I might not be able to allow all the matters of urgent public importance because we have other business to attend to.

I will start with the hon. Member for Lumezi. What is the matter of urgent public importance that you want to raise?

MR MUNIR ZULU, HON. MEMBER FOR LUMEZI, ON MR MWIIMBU, HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON PEOPLE WHO RECORDED THE PRESIDENT

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you for permitting me, on behalf of the people of Lumezi, to raise this matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, permit me to mention that this House does make laws that are impartial, be it the applicability –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, just go straight and raise the matter of urgent public importance. Do not go to the issue of how the House makes laws that are impartial because that is introducing a debate. Just state the matter that you want to raise.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, last week, this House debated the report on cybersecurity. In our midst, we have people who recorded my President, who is the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the Republic of Zambia. No one seated in our midst has acted, yet other citizens have been arrested over similar issues. They have been arrested for not recording my Commander-in-Chief but for other misdemeanours. The Zambia Police Service would say under investigations –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, restrict yourself to the matter of urgent public importance. Do not refer to other matters.

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, the citizens out there have been asking as to whether the laws are being applied differently in the sense that those who recorded my Commander-in-Chief, whom I swore my allegiance to in this House, are seated here amongst us with no sense of urgency to give decorum to the Office of the President by stepping aside for investigations to take place or at least to own up and apologise to the Head of State.

Madam Speaker: Order!

We have already heard. You are now debating, hon. Member.

Mr Munir Zulu: Sorry, Madam Speaker. Let me conclude.

Madam Speaker: I thought you had concluded. Please, wind up.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security will be doing a disservice to us and other Zambian citizens if he does not give a firm statement on how investigations and arrests of those who recorded my President, who is the Commander-in-Chief, –

Madam Speaker: You are repeating, hon. Member.

Mr Munir Zulu: I submit, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Hon. Member for Lumezi, I believe that issue of the recording, if indeed it happened, has been there for some time. Maybe it has been there for almost a month now. If you have any concerns, either you ask a question or you report the person to the police. I do not think bringing a ministerial statement here will sort out that issue to your satisfaction. Maybe report the matter to the police or put in an ordinary question and the hon. Minister will be able to answer, as the issue does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance.

I will just allow four more matters in the manner in which they are raised. We have other business. So, there will be the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi, the hon. Member for Chama North and the hon. Member for Bweengwa will be the last. So, the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi may raise his matter.

MR MUTINTA, HON. MEMBER FOR ITEZHI-TEZHI, ON MR MPOSHA, HON. MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, ON THE LACK OF WATER IN ITEZHI-TEZHI OVER THE PAST FIVE DAYS

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the people of Itezhi-Tezhi, to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Madam Speaker, it is now five days and the people of Itezhi-Tezhi have no running water in the urban district despite them sitting just miles away from one of the largest water bodies. As I speak, we have registered about twelve cases of scabies in the nearest urban clinic. Further, some schools and a clinic, are at the verge of being closed.

Madam Speaker, the water utility company, Lukanga Water Supply and Sanitation Company (LgWSC), which supplies water to Itezhi-Tezhi, is not saying anything and the people in Itezhi-Tezhi are almost protesting because they do not know the reason there has been no water for five days.

Madam Speaker, I ask that the hon. Minister guides on what the way forward is with regard to this crisis that the people of Itezhi-Tezhi are being subjected to.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi, when a matter like that arises or occurs, I think it is incumbent upon you as an hon. Member of Parliament to engage the hon. Minister to see what measures can be taken to ensure that the water is restored or that urgent measures are taken to ensure that people have water. There was the whole of yesterday and today you are raising the issue as a matter of urgent public importance. I believe there are issues concerning water. Even the hon. Member for Petauke Central last week talked about water in his constituency, and I advised him to put in a question. So, you can put in a question, hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi, but my advice is that you engage the hon. Minister responsible for water so that the water situation can be addressed urgently than to wait for the ministerial statement which maybe will be issued on Friday, yet in the meantime, people are suffering because of the shortage of water. So, please, engage the hon. Minister accordingly.

MR MTAYACHALO, HON. MEMBER FOR CHAMA NORTH, ON MRS MASEBO, HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, ON NHIMA NOT COVERING THE ENTIRE COST OF CANCER TREATMENT FOR PATIENTS

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance I wish to raise is directed at the hon. Minister of Health.

Madam Speaker, there is a growing concern from members of the general public with regard to escalating cancer cases in the country. To confirm this, yesterday, I undertook a fact-finding mission at the cancer hospital at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and discovered that there are so many patients who came from different provinces who are undergoing treatment.

Madam Speaker, the concern is that the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) is only able to meet the cost of up to K1,500 for the drugs. What is happening is that once patients undergo chemotherapy, you will find that their health deteriorates. Those who are able to afford expensive medication which costs between K4,000 to K6,000 –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you are now debating. We have heard. You are raising the issue of cancer patients, the numbers escalating and why the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) is not meeting the cost of some of the expensive drugs. I advise you, hon. Member, to put in a question and the hon. Minister will be able to address that.

MR MICHELO, HON. MEMBER FOR BWEENGWA, ON DR MUSOKOTWANE, HON. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND NATIONAL PLANNING, ON MINISTERS WHO STAYED IN POSITIONS ILLEGALLY

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to rise on a matter of urgent public importance which is directed at the Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane.

Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance I wish to let the House and the public at large know is related to the matter which Hon. Kampyongo raised two weeks ago or ten days ago, and he wanted the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to tell the public where the K65 million went and how it was deposited. Now, in a similar manner –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

We have had statements on that issue of the K65 million. There is still yet another statement which is going to be delivered tomorrow. So, maybe, you can hold on to your matter.

Mr Michelo: No. It is different, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Okay, what is the matter? That is why I always advise that you go straight and state your matter of urgent public importance. Do not bring in other issues. What is the matter? State precisely and concisely what the matter is.

Mr Michelo: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the Zambian people are in a very confused state up to now on the situation that has taken so long, on the hon. Ministers who stayed illegally in their positions, and were drawing money illegally. Up to now, the Zambian people do not know where that money was deposited and we do not know how that money worked.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

That is a matter that can be dealt with by putting in a question and then you can demand whatever you want, whether deposit slips or whatever.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: However, I understand people have evidence. So, put in a question and then that matter can be addressed. It happened almost three years ago now. So, it is not of a recent occurrence and it does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance.

There was a protestation from the hon. Member for Zambezi East. What is the matter? I hope it qualifies to be a matter of urgent public importance.

MR KAMBITA, HON. MEMBER FOR ZAMBEZI EAST, ON MRS MASEBO, HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, ON DILAPIDATED HOSPITAL IN ZAMBEZI

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank you for the opportunity.

Madam Speaker, I will be very quick. On the Floor of this House, I rose on a matter of urgent public importance regarding the district hospital in Zambezi and you rightfully instructed the hon. Minister of Health to come back to the House with a ministerial statement to give the status of the situation in Zambezi. People have been dying because of a dilapidated institution which was built in the colonial days. The hon. Minister of Health is on record giving Government assurances –

Madam Speaker: What is the matter of urgent public importance?

Mr Kambita: The matter of urgent public importance is that the hon. Minister of Health gave a Government assurance that the foundation stone of that new health institution would be laid in the first quarter of this year. To date that has not happened, and walls are almost breaking at this dilapidated district hospital.

Madam Speaker, on Friday last week, you advised us to engage the hon. Ministers when we have a problem like that. I engaged her here and we walked together outside that door to discuss the same issue. She assured me that she was going to the office and when she came back, she would give me a position. Up to now, a position has not been given.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Is she in order to remain quiet when my people’s dilapidated hospital is collapsing?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. I am sure you will continue consulting each other. However, I believe there is a Committee on Government assurances. When an assurance is made, the hon. Member can have recourse to that Committee, to make a follow-up on that assurance. However, I think that matter does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance because it was raised earlier.

Hon. Minister, please, attend to the hon. Member for Zambezi East so that you ensure that that hospital is working as you assured the House.

MR MUNSANJE, HON. MEMBER FOR MBABALA, ON MR MWIIMBU, HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON PEOPLE ARRESTED CLAIMING TO BE FIGHTING FOR HUMAN RIGHTS

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, we have seen an increase in thefts around the city. So, my issue is directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. Is he in order to remain quiet when people who are arrested are claiming to be fighting for human rights? Are they in order to cry for human rights when they are arrested for criminal offences?

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Laughter

Madam Speaker: That matter definitely does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. If you want, you can ask a question. You are definitely out of order.

Can we make progress.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

SHORTAGE OF MEDICINES

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to deliver a ministerial statement on the Government’s position on issues raised during the interview of the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) Board Chairperson’s statement on Diamond Television.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to respond to the matter of urgent public importance regarding the statement which was gracing the front page of the Daily Nation newspaper on Tuesday, 13^th June, 2023. The matter of urgent public importance was raised by Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya as follows:

“Madam Speaker, I have a newspaper in my hands which I will lay on the Table. This newspaper has a heading entitled: Drugs shortage is political – ZAMMSA.

Madam Speaker, this is where I began when your wisdom directed a Committee, which is under your jurisdiction, to go around the country and determine this problem, which Committee brought the report here. We debated and then the hon. Minister of Health refused the recommendations of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, the Board Chairperson for the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA), a woman of impeccable repute, Dr Anna Chifungula, submits as follows.

Madam Speaker, I will just quote three portions because the article is long. It states as follows:

‘Dr Anna Chifungula, the ZAMMSA Board Chairperson, says the agency was not allowed to procure medicines and other medical supplies from suppliers which were considered not to be in good standing with the New Dawn Administration.’

Madam Speaker, I skip to a paragraph which states as follows:

‘Dr Chifungula said the report by the Parliamentary Committee on the availability of drugs was very good and the board actually adopted it.’

Madam Speaker, my final quote is as follows:

‘We were being told not to deal with that one and that one to an extent that we had to request for some office of the President officials to help us pick which one we can deal with or not.’

Madam Speaker, the board chairperson says that the reason there are no drugs is because the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government did not want to deal with certain suppliers. The board chairperson says that the agency went to an officer at State House to find out from State House which suppliers should be contacted.

Madam Speaker, my question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: Will she let the hon. Minister of Health fail to supervise ZAMMSA because of political influence coming from State House when millions of Zambia may die as a result of this dire need of medicines?”

Madam Speaker, in responding to Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya’s question, I wish to inform this august House, and through this House, the nation, that there is no political influence whatsoever coming from State House or the Office of the President that interferes with the operations of ZAMMSA, as is being alleged by Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya.

Mr Kafwaya: Question!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, ZAMMSA has been left to operate freely and is devoid of any political interference. However, the Government is in support, and I repeat, the Government is in support of vetting of suppliers as this is in line with its position of assuring the three key principles of procurement. These three principles are ensuring quality, the right price and timely delivery of goods and services. These are principles observed by my Government and its spending agencies, including ZAMMSA. Therefore, the process should not be seen as a means of discrimination based on religion, tribe, ethnicity and/or political affiliation.

Madam Speaker, I wish to emphasise what I have stated before, that this Government is a Government of laws. We shall govern in accordance with the rule of law.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, the statement attributed to Madam Anna Chifungula is not very different from the statements that we have made on the Floor of the House. She basically stated a statement of fact.

Madam Speaker, my question is: Now that this information has been given to the Government, does it have any intentions to institute investigations into these officers that were making these presentations to the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA)? They should also be charged and arrested, as it has been in other cases like at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and Office of the Auditor-General.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question. I would like to assure the House that there will be no further investigations on this matter because it does not warrant any investigations at all.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister read out three principles of procurement and I picked the last one, where he talked about the timely delivery of products. I would to find out from him how the Government is managing the situation to ensure the timely delivery of medicines so that we do not have a crisis.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for that question. The way we are managing is simply following the procurement process as is laid down by law. Once that is done, we ensure that the one who is contracted to supply adheres to the timelines that he/she outlines in the procurement contract. Should that not be adhered to, there are certain penalties that we invoke, and that is how we are ensuring that the contractors do supply on time.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House should take note that this is a very serious matter.

Madam Speaker, before you assigned us to tour public institutions, I thought the issue of public procurement was a small matter. However, we had recourse to three teaching hospitals and the problem of drug shortages in hospitals is real to the extent that some superintendents were even saying what is happening now at the Ministry of Health is ‘push’ instead of ‘pull’. They are being given medicines that they cannot use. They want to change, but they are not allowed to do so. The situation is dire in public institutions.

Madam Speaker, what are the urgent measures that the Government is taking, bearing in mind that voice from the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA), which cannot just come from nowhere because the drug shortage is real? What immediate measures is the Government going to take to make sure that all the public health institutions are given the right medicine? Some hospitals are even demanding that they start buying drugs themselves.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Pambashe for that question.

Madam Speaker, as the Government, the step we are talking right now, is essentially cleaning up and ensuring that the suppliers who are given the contract own up according to the contract that they signed for. Right now, we are negotiating in earnest with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to ensure that the money is available, so that as the contractors and the suppliers supply the products, we are able to meet their costs and pay them. So, that is what we are doing to ensure that there is a continuous supply of medicines to ZAMMSA, and ZAMMSA in turn to various medical facilities.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I am a very sad Member of Parliament. As a country, we keep on preaching about suppliers all the time, yet the President indicated that we should start producing the drugs ourselves locally. If we talk of suppliers, we should be talking about producers and manufacturers of these drugs here in Zambia, unlike exporting the money which we dearly need as a country. I hope the hon. Minister will take note of that.

Madam Speaker, my question on a point of clarification is: Is the Government considering discrimination in the supply of the drugs, particularly to those of us who represent rural constituencies? In Chama, you will never find a drug store while here in Lusaka, even if you go to the hospital, there are no drugs for Blood Pressure (BP) and diabetes, but you will be able to go to a drug store and probably serve a life. However, if you go to Litoyo in the Western Province or many rural areas, there are no drug stores. As the Government is talking of procurement processes, by the way which people are not interested in because they need drugs, is it considering prioritising supplying essential drugs to rural areas?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, in the first instance, that is a very progressive idea that we should actually concentrate on, on trying to manufacture the drugs locally other than importation. Indeed, the President emphasised that and I think the Ministry of Health is working on that to ensure that there are investors in this field, so that we can cut down on the time we take to procure and deliver the necessary medicines and drugs to medical facilities.

Madam Speaker, for the second part of the question, I think it is absolutely necessary. We are on the same page. Yes, we should prioritise the delivery of essential medicines and drugs to people in rural areas given the fact that they lack drug stores in those areas. So, yes, we will prioritise supplying drugs to rural areas.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, Zambia started experiencing an acute shortage of drugs in 2017 when Missionpharma Limited was owed US$13 million by the previous Government, hence it had to leave this country. Thanks to the leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema, Missionpharma Limited has been paid US$13 million which it was owed. 7,000 health kits worth US$29 million have been ordered –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kankoyo, please, ask a question on a point of clarification. Do not debate.

Mr Mabeta: Madam Speaker, I was just trying to update the hon. Members so that they know that I am speaking from an informed point of view, as a person who was given an opportunity to go and observe the pre-shipping of the health kits, which are coming into the country. Now I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Defence, the Acting Vice-President, when we are receiving the health kits, which I witnessed being loaded on 15^th May in Guajarati in India, in the country?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us listen.

For avoidance of doubt. Hon. Lufuma, the Minister of Defence, is Acting Leader of Government Business in the House. I did not announce that he is the Acting Vice-President least I be misquoted. Let us stick to what I announced.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon. Member for that very important information, just to show you that the New Dawn Government is ensuring that outstanding debts are paid so that we enable the contractors to have a fresh start and start delivering on time. Yes, indeed, the hon. Member for Kankoyo is right. He went and witnessed the procurement process and according to the contract, the delivery of these medicines and drugs should take twelve weeks from the time he saw them being loaded. So, we expect them any time soon.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House stated in his statement, –

Eng. Milupi crossed the Floor.

Madam Speaker: Order! Order!

Hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, please, observe the rules.

Eng. Milupi stood.

Madam Speaker: I do not want you to stand where you stood. I wanted you to see your breach, but I am sure as an elderly person, you know what you have done.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Roan, proceed.

Mr J. Chibuye: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, once more for giving me an opportunity to raise a follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House stated that the Government is undertaking the vetting of suppliers and contractors. Can he kindly shed more light to us on the principles it is using in vetting these suppliers and contractors amidst the shortage of drugs? Further, how long is the vetting going to take place?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, the vetting is a onetime thing that takes place. It has been done and completed for those contractors who put in bids. You do not vet anyhow. You only vet the contractors who put in bids. So, as we go on, we will continue to vet. As we undertake the procurement process and new contractors come on board, we will continue to vet the contractors.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the other question, I did not get it. May he repeat it.

Madam Speaker: No; it is only one question per hon. Member. It is a blessing that you did not hear it.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Most obliged.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I am surprised that the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is accusing me as being the one who made the allegations of political interference by State House. It is not me; it is Dr Anna Chifungula who made the allegations.

Madam Speaker, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House said that vetting will guarantee quality, timeliness and the right price. Why is it that their vetting is ensuring that there is such a long time before delivery and the equality of healthcare has actually deteriorated? Is their vetting achieving the objective they have set or it is working in reverse?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, the simple answer is that, definitely, it is not working in reverse. It is working in forward gear. We always go forward.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that ministerial statement.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the Government undertook vetting and issues of health are very delicate. Does he not think that the vetting process was premature and has now led to the shortage of drugs in the country?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I think this vetting is being taken out of context. We were answering as to the allegation that we were being political. It is not on political basis, seeing the Office of the President. It is just a normal routine that is supposed to be undertaken by the Office of the President, vetting various contractors to ensure that they are not black listed in the first place, and that they will be able to deliver according to the contract.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lufuma: So, this vetting should not be taken out of context. It should be taken in line with the accusation that there is political interference. It is not political interference. It is a process that has to be undertaken by the Office of the President and it is not political interference.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Let us not use this segment of asking questions on points of clarification to rebut what the hon. Minister is saying. Let us just ask questions on points of clarification. If we are not satisfied, we know what to do. So, let us not raise points of order in order to rebut or counter what the hon. Minister or Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is saying.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, the statement was made by the Chairperson of the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) who has impeccable experience in governance. In the statement, the hon. Minister mentioned that there is no interference. Does this not display the fact that, on one hand, this government agency and the chairperson know what they are doing and the Government, on the other hand, is actually pulling in different directions hence causing the shortage of drugs in our hospitals across the country?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I did not think that statement in itself will cause the delays or the shortage of medicines and drugs at various medical facilities. As far as we know and after talking to the chairperson, she denied having said that because we interrogated her. So, she was misquoted.

Mr Kafwaya: On television?

Mr Lufuma: Yes. She can be misquoted on television, why not?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we do not have the script before us. So, we cannot say what she said on television.

Mr Lufuma: It is not a matter of contradicting. What we are saying is that there is no political interference. The bottom line is, there is no political interference in the procurement process.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, I just want to seek further clarification from the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House. The issue here is that an issue was raised that there is political interference in the procurement of drugs and that do not buy from this one or that one, and those who are in bad standing with the New Dawn Government. Even here in this House, we have heard hon. Ministers say that there are certain contractors here and there. Now, I want the hon. Minister to clearly tell this nation and this House, and I want a guarantee, how there is no political interference when even here some hon. Ministers have stated that they do not want certain contractors because of certain associations.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I do not know which Ministers have said that there is political interference; I doubt. I will, again, emphasise that the Government does not interfere on political lines in the procurement process, but that does not mean there should not be any vetting. Vetting is part and parcel of the procurement process. So, as the New Dawn Government, we maintain that we will not and shall not, interfere in the procurement process.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I think the statement was borne from a committee that you constituted to go and investigate on the availability of medicine, and we all remember the atmosphere that was in the House when the report was presented. We remember vividly that the country’s nation stock levels stood at 53 per cent, which fell short of the recommendation by the World Health Organisation (WHO) of 70 to 80 per cent.

Since the question is on political interference, Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether it is not political interference if we are to remember the reaction of the hon. Minister of Health …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Fube: …who influenced other hon. Members against their conscious of the shortage of medicines in the country.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

For purposes of guidance, that issue was debated. We voted and the House made a decision. So, let us not draw some conclusions on whether there was political interference or what. It is water under the bridge now.

Mr Fube: Okay, can I ask –

Madam Speaker: We have a ministerial statement over the issue. Address your mind to what you can ask as a point of clarification from the statement that has been issued.

Mr Fube: I think we have digressed from the question of political interference. There is a difference between the Office of the President and State House. The statement referred to State House, of which we have not heard the hon. Minister speak to that reality. The hon. Minister seemingly was mixing State House with the Office of the President. So, the question on political interference was about State House versus the Office of the President, and what was mentioned and quoted is State House. Can the hon. Minister be clear on the difference between the two; political interference from State House or political interference from the Office of the President. I think that was the question that was being asked in terms of political interference.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, as concerns the Office of the President, if we take into consideration political interference, it is a categorical no, because it is part and parcel of the procurement process. So, that is settled. As concerns State House, again categorically, I state here that State House is not involved in the procurement process and, therefore, does not politically interfere in the procurement process. I guess that is now clear. As concerns the debate, that was parliamentary democracy, not political interference; this is why we debate here. So, the other side took the day because of democracy; numbers.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Musanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that statement. Can the hon. Minister confirm that in the past there was no vetting in the procurement process, hence the many scandalous procurements we have experienced in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that fantastic question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Really good question; I can assure you. I am sure with his insights, I have the inclination to agree with him. I think one step or the other was being missed, and that is the vetting system. This is because if we had a vetting system, you would know who is – I do not know if I can use the word ‘quack’. It is used in medical terms, but I do not know whether it is acceptable here. You would know who is a false and real contractor through the vetting system. So, I tend to agree with him, 100 per cent.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I notice that we have run out of time, but since there are only three hon. Members indicating, I will allow all of them to ask questions. So, it will be the hon. Member for Lumezi, the hon. Member for Lundazi and the last one will be the hon. Member for Kaumbwe.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, thank you for your generosity with time. I feel very sad that the people who are supposed to defend my President, who is the Commander-in-Chief, were not well vetted.

Madam Speaker, the President needs to reconstitute a team, a substitute, time is now.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lumezi, ask a question on a point of clarification.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I listened attentively to the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, and he said that there is no need to warrant further investigations into this particular matter.

Madam Speaker, the Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House is not an investigator. Where does he derive his authority to say there will be no need for further investigations? Sincerely speaking, people are talking to each other in this country, just like we talk to each other in the House. He may not be privy to what people are talking about.

Sincerely speaking, health concerns all of us. The people of Lumezi cry about medication every day and then in here, we have developed – Madam Speaker, I hope you have equally observed that we have developed a habit of justifying –

Madam Speaker: Order!

You have asked your question on a point of clarification. There is no need to debate, hon. Member. If you are so much interested in this issue, there are ways, and you can move a Motion. So, the question that you asked the Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House was: Since he is not an investigator, how can he conclude that there will be no further investigations? That was the question.

Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I was taking this issue from the standpoint of political interference because that was the main point and not corruption or anything else. As concerns political interference, we are saying there is no political interference at all. On that basis, we do not see any need for investigations at all.

Madam Speaker, political interference or no political interference, we are denying that there is political interference. What investigations does he need to be carried out on that? It is simple and forward. There is either political interference or no political interference, and we are saying there is no political interference. However, I am not talking about corruption and things like that, no. I am talking about political interference in the procurement process which we are denying as existing in the New Dawn Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the people of Lundazi, to ask the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House a fellow-up question.

Madam Speaker, has the Government conducted a Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats (SWOT) Analysis to see how the vetting is assisting the Ministry of Health, especially that we do not have drugs in Lundazi?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, we appreciate the hon. Member for Lundazi’s knowledge on the Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats (SWOT) Analysis and we will take that into consideration.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, I must declare that I am a member of your Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services. We interviewed the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) and the report was tabled in this House. In the report, it was recommended that there was political interference in the procurement of medical supplies. That report was literally rejected here through orchestrated campaigns. Further, the report was vindicated because on the ground, evidence showed that it –

Mr Musanje: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kaumbwe, I think I guided earlier on when a question similar to the one that you are just about to ask was asked. We made a decision in this House, and it has not been reversed. So, we stick to that decision. It was the decision of the House in accordance with our practice and procedure. So, please, just ask a question on a point of clarification with regard to the ministerial statement that the Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House rendered on the Floor of this House. You may proceed.

Dr Mwanza: Thank you for your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya said that he is not linked to the statement. So, I take it that the statement was from the board chairperson. From the ministerial statement the hon. Minister issued, I see that there is political interference. Is it as a result of the point of order raised by Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya that the hon. Minister issued this ministerial statement or this ministerial statement emanated as a result of the board chairperson’s statement?

Madam Speaker: Order!

For purposes of reminding ourselves, a matter of urgent public importance was raised following the statement that was carried in the Daily Nation newspaper, which the hon. Member for Lunte brought to the House. As a result of that matter of urgent public importance, the Leader of Government Business in the House was directed to come back to the House to deliver a ministerial statement. So, that explains why, today, the Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House has rendered that statement.

I do not know if you still have a question on that or you are satisfied with why the ministerial statement happens to have been rendered today.

Dr Mwanza indicated assent.

Madam Speaker: I think we are done. Do you want to say something?

Dr Mwanza: It is okay.

Madam Speaker: We are done. Thank you, very much.

We can proceed.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

SUSPENSION OF MULOBEZI TRAIN FROM OPERATION

293. Eng. Mabenga (Mulobezi) asked the Minister of Transport and Logistics:

1. whether the Government is aware that the suspension of the Mulobezi Train from operation has virtually cut off Mulobezi from Livingstone District, the main source of supplies, hence endangering the lives of the people of Mulobezi;
2. why Bombwe Bridge on the railway line was not rehabilitated years back when it was realised that the bridge was not safe for use by the train;
3. whether the Zambia National Service would be engaged to re-construct Bombwe Bridge; and
4. whether there are any immediate plans to rehabilitate the entire Mulobezi Railway Line.

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali): Madam Speaker, before I answer the question, kindly permit me, as I am sure I speak on behalf of all hon. Members on both sides of the divide, to congratulate a triumphant Zambia National Soccer Team ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tayali: ... that played a crucial game, right in the centre of my constituency, at Levy Mwanawasa Stadium.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tayali: I am sure that win is truly symbolic of what His Excellency the President means when he says Zambia is back in the Champions League.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, in response to the question raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mulobezi Constituency, I would like to inform this august House that yes, the Government is aware of the suspension of the Mulobezi Train operations and deeply regrets the adverse impact this has had on the people of Mulobezi District. However, the suspension was aimed at safeguarding the lives of the people and goods of Mulobezi District and Livingstone District.

Madam Speaker, this august House may wish to note that the suspension is temporary as the structural integrity of the Bombwe Bridge is severely compromised posing a risk to the people and goods. A consultant has since been engaged to undertake an assessment and make recommendations on what is to be done on both the existing bridge and replacement bridge for train services to resume.

Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation of the bridge has not been undertaken due to unavailability of funding. However, the Government, through the Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL), continue to implement short-term mitigation measures to sustain train operations on the Mulobezi Railway Line while awaiting funds to rehabilitate the bridge.

Madam Speaker, the contractor to undertake works on the existing and replacement bridge will be engaged through a competitive tender process. Local bidders, including the Zambia National Service (ZNS) will be free to participate in the tender.

Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to rehabilitate the entire Mulobezi Railway Line. This will be undertaken during the planned rehabilitation of the ZRL mainline from Livingstone to Chingola. In the short to medium-term period, the Government has been releasing funds to address critical areas of the Mulobezi Railway Line. Between 2022 and 2023, over K8 million has been released to address critical areas of the Mulobezi Railway Line and to conduct maintenance works on the line.

Madam Speaker, further, the Government has released K27 million to ZRL as a grant, to support consultancy and rehabilitation of the existing Bombwe Bridge for continuity of train operations and consultancy to facilitate construction of a replacement bridge as a sustainable long-term solution.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Eng. Mabenga: Madam Speaker, the people of Mulobezi are very disappointed with the answer because they want to know when train operations will resume. Right now, many people are stranded in Livingstone and Mulobezi because that is the only means of transport, which is available. So, when is the train going to resume its operations?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, may I say to the hon. Member that the people of Mulobezi need not be disappointed with the response because the Government of the New Dawn Administration prefers to safeguard the lives of the same people who may, at the moment, be affected negatively by the suspension of operations of the Mulobezi Train.

What we have figured out, Madam Speaker, is that we are better off avoiding a catastrophe on that bridge. So, the process of procuring a contractor to give us a detailed assessment of what works must be done on the bridge before the commencement of operations, is already underway and is expected to be completed by the end of this month.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kangombe (Sesheke): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that response. Knowing too well the importance of that railway and considering that Mulobezi is part of Sesheke and that Mwandi and Katombola are badly affected, and like my colleague, the hon. Member for Mulobezi has asked, could the hon. Minister be explicitly precise as to when train operations will resume? I believe this should be considered a disaster because the people of Mulobezi, Katombola, Makunka, Ngweze and Mulanga are completely cut off.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, let me join the hon. Members in their lamentations about how badly affected the people in that part of our country are at the moment, owing to the suspension of train operations.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Members will be glad to note that the bridge in question is well over a hundred years. It was constructed out of teak, which is a very hard wood and has rotted over the years. Now, owing to the many years of neglect, and the lack of investment of the necessary funds to maintain such infrastructure, we are where we are. The New Dawn Administration promised that it was coming to fix that which had been broken. It is better to be safe than sorry. Much as it has taken a while, we are now at a stage where as I have just said on the Floor of this House, by monthend, the consultant will get back to us on what remedial measures we are able to take in order for that bridge to be fixed so that as soon as possible, train operations resume.

In answering the question directly, Madam Speaker, the hon. Member seeks to know precisely when, but as an engineer, I will not delve into such speculation. I shall wait for the report before we come back to this House with further and better instructions.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Eng. Mabenga: Madam Speaker, since there is no road between Mulobezi and Livingstone, is the ministry able to put up a modern design that will cater for the train and also the road because we are planning on constructing a road there?

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, it is suffice to say that everything possible is being done to ensure that a lasting solution for that particular dilapidated bridge is found. At the moment, I shall not stand on the Floor of this House and give an assurance as to what detailed engineering designs have been reserved for the works which are to be done in the future.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Speaker, Bombwe Bridge is in Katombola Constituency and money was released, which was borrowed by those people seated on the left (gesturing towards hon. PF Members), in form of a Eurobond, and a bridge which is of poor standard –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

There is a point of order being raised. What is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am sure you know the point of order. When I look at these hon. Members here (pointing at hon. Members seated behind him), I can see the hon. Member for ….

Ms Chisenga: Mambilima!

Mr Kasandwe: Mambilima!

Mr Kafwaya: … Mambilima. I can see the hon. Member for Milanzi, and I can see several hon. Members who are seated here who were not in the previous Government. What is wrong with that hon. Member? What is wrong with him?

Mr Anakoka: That leaves you only.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, if we start pointing − two wrongs do not make a right.

Mr Kafwaya: He pointed at us.

Mr Nkandu: It was you!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, −

Madam Speaker: What is the point of order?

Mr Kafwaya: My point of order is, what is wrong with him, to imagine that all these hon. Members seated here borrowed money, when in fact some of them have just been in this Assembly for less than two years?

Mr Kangombe: Then it was you!

Mr Kafwaya: What is wrong with him, Madam Speaker?

I seek your serious ruling on this matter based on Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, when you ask questions, do not try to ignite reactions from other hon. Members. Maybe, what I can ask the hon. Member for Katombola to do is to recast or rephrase his question because what I heard was that the Eurobond was borrowed by the previous Government. I think that was –

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: He said Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Members!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

That is why I am –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kangombe: It was Kafwaya!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

So, what is wrong with what I said? I said he should have said that the Eurobond was borrowed by the previous Government instead of saying the hon. Members seated on the left.

So, you can rephrase, hon. Member.

Mr Kangombe: It was Kafwaya!

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the people of Katombola Constituency, I am thankful for your guidance. The position is that next year, 2024, the Eurobond is due; €2 billion. There was an attempt to put up a structure that was substandard at Bombwe Bridge. Can the hon. Minister assure us, where the money that was paid to the contractor is, and state why the Government is again seeking consultancy and whatever it is trying to do, …

Mr Kangombe: When Kafwaya was there!

Mr Andeleki: … when the people who were in the Government, the ones seated on the left, today, are actually –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

You were guided. It is not all of them.

Mr Mwene: Madam Speaker, it was all of them.

Mr Kangombe: It was Kafwaya!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

It is not all of them. It is some of them. Just ask your supplementary question.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government borrowed money, and it engaged a contractor who constructed a substandard bridge. Will we recover that money so that we can get the correct contractor to put up the bridge and the people of Bombwe in Katombola Constituency can benefit? We are disappointed with the work that the contractor did.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, allow me to join the hon. Member for Katombola, …

Mr Kafwaya: Question!

Mr Tayali: … in expressing, indeed, that great sadness that public resources in this country in the past were misapplied, and have not yielded the intended purpose for which borrowing for infrastructure development is supposed to.

Madam Speaker, I assure the hon. Member that this case of the US$120 million purportedly given to ZRL to improve its operations, indeed, did not yield anything in terms of improving the operations. We are burdened as an Administration that we have to fix that which was broken. I assure the hon. Member that this should make the many cases that we must continue to investigate, so that never again should such blatant misapplication of public resources ever take place again.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Looking at the way we are proceeding, I believe we have exhausted that question. We can make progress.

REHABILITATION OF TOWNSHIP ROADS IN MONGU DISTRICT

294. Mr Anakoka (Luena) (on behalf of Mr Amutike (Mongu Central)) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

1. whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate township roads in Mongu District, especially the Old Shoprite and Libonda roads; and
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Mongu Municipal Council, has plans to rehabilitate the roads in Mongu District. The specific road that emerges here, the Libonda Road, has been included in the contract for the rehabilitation of the Mongu/Limulunga Road under the Road Development Agency (RDA) from the sister ministry, the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. However, the funds have not yet been secured for the Old Shoprite Road, which was supposed to be dealt with by the Mongu Municipal Council.

Madam Speaker, the implementation plan for the Old Shoprite Road and other township roads has not yet been done as the funds are not yet available due to the financial constraints in the road sector.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, Mongu, which is the provincial capital of the Western Province, was denied any significant works when it came to township roads. In fact, when we compare the works in other provincial capitals in the rest of the country, even the little 9.1 km that was done was not paid for and this forced the contractor to abandon the works. So, my follow-up question is: Is the ministry considering prioritising the township roads in Mongu because the town is growing and people have difficulties accessing their residential areas. They now have to abandon their work stations early because they leave their vehicles very close to town, and they walk all the way to the new district hospital area and other places around Mongu.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Member’s concern for Limulunga and the passion that he has to see Mongu –

Madam Speaker: He is the hon. Member for Luena.

Mr Nkombo: Thank you for the correction, Madam Speaker. I appreciate.

Madam Speaker, I was saying that I appreciate his passion for his desire to see Mongu get a facelift in terms of upgrading the roads from sandy to bituminous standard.

As I answered in my maiden response, Madam, the previous Government stopped these works between 2012 and 2014 due to financial constraints. The situation has not changed. The financial constraints are even more challenging now than at the time when the previous Government commenced the robust programme of constructing township roads in the whole country.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member asked me whether or not we are going to prioritise the township roads in Mongu, it being a provincial capital. I am burning with desire to construct bituminous standard roads in all the towns of this Republic of Zambia, including Mongu, for the benefit of the beautiful people of that region. It is suffice to mention, however, that it should be appreciated that the Government inherited a huge debt mountain which we cannot ignore. So, I would like the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena to bear with us as we do our debt restructuring and as we adjust our priorities from the way things were before.

Madam Speaker, we are looking at many other areas that we think would give social justice to our people such as the flagship programme of the Free Education Policy, which does not come without expenditure, and the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which we think is transformation in its nature, to try and touch the very lives of the people whom we think were left behind. We are quite hopeful that as we get along, we will get to a point where you will see in our Yellow Book, the commencement of uplifting our township roads in the whole country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka indicated assent.

Madam Speaker: I am looking at the hon. Member for Luena. He appears satisfied. So, let us not spend more time on this matter, especially that the people who have indicated are not from that area.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: So, we can make progress and go to the next question.

CONSTRUCTION OF STAFF HOUSES FOR ZAMBIA POLICE SERVICE AND ZAMBIA CORRECTIONAL SERVICE IN MUFUMBWE

295. Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe) to ask the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct staff houses for the following institutions in Mufumbwe Parliamentary Constituency:

 

(i)         Zambia Police Service; and

(ii)        Zambia Correctional Service; and

(b)     if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo) (on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu)): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government has plans to construct forty-five housing units for the Zambia Police Service and thirty housing units for the Zambia Correctional Service in Mufumbwe Constituency. The construction will commence when funds are made available although land has already been secured for this purpose.

The construction, Madam Speaker, will commence when ongoing projects are completed and when funds are made available.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, the House may be aware that Mufumbwe was declared a district in 1974, and no houses for the police and the prisons have ever been constructed. We saw so many houses being constructed countrywide for the police, and Mufumbwe was left out. I would like to find from the hon. Minister if the Government is going to prioritise Mufumbwe whenever the funds are made available, so that it can also have at least a facelift? Up to now, police officers still sleep in ‘tinned houses’ and this has been the case for more than twenty-five years.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the answer is very clear that the plans are underway. Even a plot has been secured except that obviously, we have ongoing projects that are being completed, and once the monies are made available, Mufumbwe will be prioritised. It will be important for hon. Members to appreciate that no project can be implemented unless resources are made available. It is also appreciated that, previously, there are areas which never got any development. That is why the New Dawn Government is ensuring that all the ten provinces are treated equally. In that regard, it, therefore, means that when resources are made available, those provinces that are lagging behind will be lifted.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, I feel sadden on behalf of the people of the North-Western Province because of the answers that we get on the Floor of this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: So many times, assurances are given and now, we are being told that the project will be implemented when money will be made available.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, as we ask questions, let us not ask questions that are promoting regionalism. Please, let us be as general as possible. We are trying to heal. So, let us help the healing process. You may ask.

Mr Katakwe: Indeed, it takes time to heal and I am saying this on behalf of the people of the North-Western Province.

Madam Speaker, not too long ago, Government assurances were made about a hospital and now it is about the police houses. Is the hon. Minister within her power able to let the mining industry in the North-Western Province to release even 10 per cent, just a tithe of the revenues, then these houses can be constructed? The people of the North-Western Province are begging.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, in answering this important question, I want to say that the New Dawn Government has decided to release resources to all the constituencies, so that certain projects can be prioritised by the communities themselves. The money which is being released is enough to construct one or two houses. So, if that is the major priority – I advise that hon. Members of Parliament begin to consider some of these important issues that they themselves feel are important.

Madam Speaker, it is suffice to say that the ministry has already indicated that forty-five housing units will be constructed. It means that the Government recognises that need and has prioritised it. If the answer was, it has not been prioritised then the hon. Member of Parliament can get worried. However, at least, there is willingness on the part of the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security to do this work.

Madam Speaker, on the question as to whether we have powers to speak to the mining companies in the area to help, I think this is something that the local leadership can do. The Provincial Minister, hon. Members of Parliament and traditional leaders are all influential people who can indeed approach the mining companies in the area to assist. Yes, indeed, the Government is responsible for certain sectors. If it is about a hospital, yes, the Minister of Health can talk to the business community in a particular place to help, but I think the process should start with the local people themselves.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Looking at the time, and the questions and the answers, I think we can make progress.

_______

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL ECONOMY, TRADE AND LABOUR MATTERS

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters on Public Procurement in Zambia, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The procedure is you say, yes, I second the Motion.

Mr Kamondo: Yes, I second the Motion, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 13^th June, 2023.

Madam Speaker, in accordance with the National Assembly Standing Orders 2021, your Committee considered the subject of public procurement in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, allow me to state from the outset that public procurement plays a crucial role in the efficient and effective functioning of the Government and the overall development of the nation. It is vital that the challenges in this area are addressed in order to achieve service objectives set out in various national development plans.

Madam Speaker, allow me to comment on some of the key findings from your Committee’s engagement with various local and foreign stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, your Committee noted that technology can play a pivotal role in enhancing transparency and efficiency in the public procurement process. For example, implementing electronic procurement systems can provide consistent information to stakeholders making it easily and readily accessible to all stakeholders without human interference. This has the potential to promote transparency and accountability in the public procurement process.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that the Electronic Government Procurement System was not implemented to its full capacity by most procurement entities. This was either due to the lack of capacity or non-availability of connectivity. In this regard, your Committee urges the Government to ensure that it prioritises access to the internet for all. Providing internet access for all will ensure that all procuring entities and stakeholders are able to transact unhindered.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that the Market Price Index is reviewed quarterly by the Zambia Public Procurement Authority. However, the review of fuel prices, which are an important factor in the determination of prices, is done on a monthly basis. In this regard, your Committee recommends a monthly review of the Market Price Index. This will ensure that public goods in the Market Price Index are aligned to the adjustment in the price of petroleum products.

Madam Speaker, your Committee further observes that there is a lack of competence within procurement institutions, leading to errors, delays, and even providing avenues for public corruption. In view of the above, your Committee recommends that the Government should invest in capacity building programmes that would in turn provide comprehensive training and promote professionalism in public procurement practices.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to place on record my gratitude and that of your Committee, to all the stakeholders who tendered submissions. Further, I wish to record your Committee’s appreciation to you, and the Clerk of the National Assembly and his staff for the guidance rendered to it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Kamondo: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, first of all, let me start by thanking the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte, the Chairperson of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters, who has ably moved the Motion concerning public procurement.

Madam Speaker, in seconding the Motion, during our local tours, we found that on the ground, public procurement had many challenges. I will not talk about the challenges that have been mentioned already. However, there are so many, but I will just mention a few.

Madam Speaker, indeed, there is a need to have proper internet connectivity in this country. If we are to go the way of using the internet in terms of procurement, it is better, first of all, we improve the procurement process by providing the much-needed internet connectivity. Zambia, as a country, cannot remain behind when its neighbouring countries have actually done a lot and have gone ahead to provide the internet even in rural areas.

As you may be aware, Madam Speaker, with the increment of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), people and our local contractors are supposed to bid through the internet. However, as the Chairperson earlier alluded to, most of these people, who are the local contractors, do not know even how to bid. The President has, most of the times, been encouraging our local contractors to participate in the procurement processes. This is actually the same as providing someone a car while holding the tail. So, your Committee recommends that the Executive and the Government urgently addresses this matter of connectivity.

Madam Speaker, the other thing I would like to talk about is the issue to do with the delays in procurement. Our Zambian citizens in this country are in dire need of development. In certain areas in this country, there are no clinics, hospitals, and schools, but what is happening now is that the procurement processes are taking too long, to an extent that even hon. Members of Parliament, especially if it is something to do with the CDF, are being accused of delaying the procurement processes. In this vein, your Committee asks the Government to make sure that the procurement processes are shortened in order to have the facilities, which are required and needed urgently in our communities.

Madam Speaker, the other issue that is actually worrisome is the issue to do with the Attorney-General. After the contracts have been approved by the CDF Committee, and one takes them to the Attorney-General, they take too long. So, it is the view of your Committee that the process should be reduced at least to ten working days so that the projects can start within the shortest period of time.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the procurement entities, there is a need to establish the Procurement General’s Office. From the look of things, there is no procurement general and this challenge makes the progress of procurement entities to retard. So, it is your Committee’s idea that this office be established to help them even to debate on the highest levels.

Madam Speaker, the other thing we found on the ground is that the office of the storesman sits in the office of the financial controller. The procurement entities are saying, why does the office of the storesman not be on its own rather than be in the office of the financial controller, because procurement ends when something has been done, but the storesman has to look after the things which have been procured. So, these are two different entities, which are supposed to be separated.

Madam Speaker, your Committee appeals to the Executive to make sure that this time around, when we are getting too much money in terms of the CDF, it trains more officers at lower levels, especially at the district level, to ensure that all the procurement processes are done in the most efficient manner. I beg to second.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to add a word to the debate on the report that has been rendered on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, public procurement is a very important aspect in the governance system. Previously, it was discovered that with weak public procurement systems, the issue of corruption would be very difficult to handle because in most cases, over pricing was a single motivation for corruption. So, the enactment of the Public Procurement Act No. 8 of 2020 was aimed at reducing cases of corruption. It is important to note that one of the objectives of this Act is to enable a fair opportunity to the citizens; an equitable, transparent, competitive and cost-effective system for the citizens.

However, Madam Speaker, we have noted that in some of the procurements that have been undertaken by the Government, there has not been strict adherence to this Act. We have cases of single sourcing. Yes, single sourcing is a mode of procurement, but the Act prescribes the circumstances that must exist before you resort to single sourcing. Single sourcing does not give fair, equitable, transparent and competitiveness in the procurement system. For that reason, it is important for Government agencies to ensure that they only resort to single sourcing in circumstances that are prescribed under the Act. What we have witnessed in the recent past is that there has been over 90 per cent of Government procurement being undertaken under single sourcing.

Madam Speaker, we also note that the powers that are given to the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) are not enough. Basically, ZPPA has no power to punish or sanction officers who are found in breach. The functions of the law, conventionally, are to regulate conduct, but if you have a situation in which officers are found wanting, yet the laws that exist do not provide for any sanctional punishment, you find that the obedience of these particular laws is very weak. It is, therefore, very important that going forward, we give ZPPA enough power to be able to punish or, indeed, sanction erring officers as it were.

Madam Speaker, like I said earlier, issues of transparency, efficiency, effectiveness and value for money are very key to ensuring that the Government does not lose money. On the Floor of the House, there has been a number of issues that we have brought to question, for instance, the procurement of 100 million health facilities, something that was debated. We felt that had the Public Procurement Act been applied strictly, we would not have found ourselves in that situation.

The situation at the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies (ZAMMSA), Madam Speaker, as was discussed, would not have arisen had there been strict adherence to the laws that govern the procurement systems. It is, therefore, very important that we look at this legislation and refine it, so that we ring fence the law and make it durable. This will ensure that the interference that has been talked about from other agencies or offices does not come in.

Madam Speaker, like I said, there were issues to do with the procurement of bicycles, for instance, that hon. Members of Parliament questioned. There was also the procurement of fertilisers that hon. Members of Parliament questioned. The Public Procurement Act alludes to the Market Price Index and under Section 12, it states that a procuring entity shall, where an item to be procured is not covered in the quarterly Market Price Index, undertake a price reasonableness analysis.

Madam Speaker, for some of the public procurements that have recently taken place, even just from common parlance, you would know that they are overpriced, without resorting to the Market Price Index. We have had instances of motorbikes, fertilisers and health facilities that were procured at prices that are much higher than what one would term a reasonable price.

Madam Speaker, it is, therefore, important, as I end, that we relook at some of these provisions. Most importantly, however, let us give power to the ZPPA to be able to punish or, indeed, sanction erring officers or anyone who avoids following the strict provisions that are in this particular law.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I thank you.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for permitting me, on behalf of the good people of Solwezi East in Mushindamo District, to add a voice to the debate on this Motion, and support the report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters on public procurement in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I should say I support the report, with just two or three observations. The report gives scenarios where we have delays in the procurement processes. Issues of corruption have also been mentioned.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the people of Solwezi East, I wish to state that as a country, we need to invest as heavy as possible in the digital space, so that we enhance e-government procurement processes. That is going to help us when it comes to dealing with the issue of human hands being physically involved in various procurement activities. For instance, with the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which has often been mentioned, and the devolution of various government functions to the local authorities, there is a need to actually enhance the aspect of public procurement using the digital space. This can also assist in addressing issues of security as well as avoid corruption.

Madam Speaker, we need to invest more in e-government procurement processes through the decentralisation that I have talked about. For instance, we know that motorbikes, mattresses and bicycles were procured when we had the last national census. If these things were procured through the digital space and there was a track record, today, we would be able to know the quantity of bicycles and other materials that were procured and where they are. Without the enhancement of e-government processes, it will be very difficult to track what is where and we will actually be giving room for corruption to take place. I know that the issues of fertiliser and bicycles have been mentioned. However, there was no mention of the fire tenders and ambulances that were also procured in a questionable manner.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the people of Solwezi East, I wish to state that we just need to enhance e-government procurement processes. That is the solution to deal with all these shortfalls.

Madam Speaker, otherwise, with just those few remarks, I support the report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I support the report and I thank the Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson of your Committee for the wonderful report.

Madam Speaker, I agree with some issues but I do not agree with some of them. The procurement departments are the most protected units in every institution. Due to the great deal of protection we have given them, these are the most abused departments in government cycles and the private sector. The heads of procurement units have become demigods in private companies and Government departments. As a result, things are not moving at the rate we need them to move.

Madam Speaker, often times, we allow these departments to go and source for the product, come up with a price, advertise in the newspaper, prepare bidding documents, mark the same bidding documents and give out the contracts. However, this has brought many issues. The problem we have in this country is that we like massaging problems. We do not like to tackle problems head on. When we try to tackle problems, others think we are just politicking. We need to protect our country, mother Zambia.

Madam Speaker, presently, the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has enhanced development. This is a reality for people like me who come from a constituency with a rural set up. The United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has come up with a very successful programme of sending our youths to school. We are using co-operatives to send youths for skills training in plumbing, bricklaying and so on and so forth. When these people graduate, however, what is it that we have prepared for them to do? When these people come out of school, we need to at least give them projects such as building a toilet, a market or a 1 X 3 classroom block. These are people without documentation. Their companies have no experience. However, when we advertise for a 1 X 3 classroom block, we say that a contractor needs to have three, four or five years experience.

Madam Speaker, the young boys and girls we send for skills training such as entrepreneurship and bricklaying were already doing these things before. Since they have no capital, they have to acquire papers. However, we are not giving them jobs in the constituencies and this is not building our country.

Madam Speaker, if we are to promote development in the rural parts of this country, let us see to it that we train the youths in electronic-government procurement (e-GP) processes. This is something that we are not teaching them when they go out there to study. As a result, only well to do people and big companies are accessing the jobs at the local level. The problem is with us parliamentarians because we do not want to come up with a system which is going to empower our local people.

Madam Speaker, in addition to that, if you look at the documents involved in the bidding procedure, some of them are basically not needed. For instance, in a rural set up like Nyimba, we know that Mr Bwalya or Mr Tembo is a bricklayer. We know who has built what building in our communities. However, when it comes to issues involving the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA), these people have to provide documents of their experience. They come up with a company, but we tell them that they cannot work because their company is newly registered and does not have the experience. That is not helping us as a country. The Executive needs to start thinking about this and see to it that we start moving in the right direction.

Madam Speaker, there is the issue of the duration of public procurement processes, and this is something that is not helping us in institutions like the Ministry of Health or the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU). For example, if a disaster happens today and we send people to embark on a procurement process for the required materials, it will take three months to start addressing the situation. This is not helpful. We need to start looking at setting up special systems to deal with emergency situations.

Today, Madam Speaker, people are debating about the disaster in Mulobezi, and are questioning it. Surely, that is a disaster and there is a military regiment in Mufulira which can work on that bridge within four months. However, because of the procurement system, we are delaying everything. Can we start looking at this as a country? A good number of you have been to China and you know the Chinese method. For some things, you can follow the lengthy six months procedure, but for things like emergencies, you need to move fast as a country.

Madam Speaker, let me end by telling the Executive that we need the CDF projects to succeed. The UPND Government needs to make a name for itself before the end 2026, so that when it goes out there to campaign, it can point at something. Let it empower the locals at the district and constituency levels. Today, it takes six or nine months to procure a 1 X 2 classroom block for a primary school, and this is not helping anyone, yet this is a simple thing.

Madam Speaker, we have given so much power to one person, the procurement officer. He/she decides when to place a tender, withdraw a tender or withdraw the date of a sitting. We need to look at that, otherwise we will end up doing nothing. The next Government will also be pointing at other people, and it will be very sad to see Hon. Nzovu seated at the left and being pointed at that he never worked, when the man is really working.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, at times I wonder whether as a nation we cannot develop and devise systems which can work in our environment, particularly to do with procurement. It is like, as a nation or as a people, we are more concerned with fear of the unknown.

Madam Speaker, the report is very clear. For example, just to procure one earth moving equipment – you are aware that the Government has increased the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) from K1.6 million to K27 million.

Hon. Government Members: K28 million.

Mr Mung’andu: K28 million has not yet disbursed, but the pronouncement, Madam Speaker, is that it is K28 million this year. However, if you go round the councils, you will find that we are still struggling as a nation to spend the first K27 million. In most councils, this money is still sitting. What is more worrying are the requirements that the council officials are asking for. For example, new youth clubs or, indeed, companies are finding it very difficult to participate, yet the President clearly stated that the money going to the constituencies should actually benefit the people in those constituencies. The reason we have skills development is to equip the youths with skills so that they should be able to give a service and thereby improve their livelihood.

Madam Speaker, it takes not less than seven months to just have a single procurement in spite the Government putting in place what are called streamlined approval processes for CDF, and the reason is very simple. Most procurement committees will not sit until an official from the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) is there. If I am to ask everyone here, is the Office of the ACC decentralised? Is it present in our districts? The answer is no. The Office of the ACC is only in provincial headquarters. How many officers are there to attend, for example, to the people of the Eastern Province, where there are more than eighteen constituencies or the people of the Western Province, where there are more than fifteen constituencies? It takes at times a year.

Madam Speaker, these are impediments which I believe policy makers should be working on. We have invested heavily in the Electronic-Governance (e-Governance) System, but are we reaping the benefits from the money that we are putting in this system? Do we still need the physical presence of the ACC, for example, because it is one of the stumbling blocks? When I ask the officers to say the CDF Committee sat and approved this, why are you not procuring? They will say they are still waiting for an official from Chipata to come and sit in the procurement committee, and until that is done, that is when they can procure. The increased CDF is good, but if we do not streamline the systems, it might take five to ten years for the people to feel the impact of this improved and increased CDF, and that might come with its own consequences politically.

Madam Speaker, I submit that as a nation, let us not fear to make decisions. Let us trust ourselves. It is possible to devise systems that are self-checking. If someone is doing wrong, quickly the system will know that something is wrong here. We can do that without losing time as is currently the case. Money, which is supposed to be helping in elevating the problems that the people are facing, is sitting in most constituencies. It is a pity the hon. Minister of Justice is not here. Actually, those are the things that we should be seeing our colleagues working on so that the impact of the CDF is felt within a year or two. As I said earlier when I was giving a vote of thanks, the money is sitting in most constituencies. Why should we allow this money to just sit because of procurement challenges, when people are going through difficulties? This is also going on even in other sector ministries like the Ministry of Health.

Madam Speaker, as a nation, we should start looking at ways through which we can speed up the processes without of course, compromising quality, time, as well as credibility to do with public resources. We can do that. We have technical experts who can do that. There are a lot of people who need employment. At times, we should not allow technocrats who do not want to change in terms of the speedy implementation of Government programmes because that has been a problem. For example, I had an emergency when the roof of a clinic blew off. It took six months to a year to just procure roofing sheets for a clinic whose roof had completely been blown off at Manga. That was an emergency, yet under CDF, there is money reserved for disasters. However, the officers will simply tell you “honourable, there is nothing we can do here. Yes, it is a disaster but the procurement needs to go through a process.” So, it is up to my colleagues, the hon. Ministers, to bring Bills which will make certain things be implemented within a reasonable period of time. We will be here to support them because it will be good for all of us.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I submit.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Mbabala, to contribute to the debate of the Report of the Committee of National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters on public procurement.

Madam Speaker, this is a public policy matter, having looked at the report that covers the policy and legal framework, as well as the systems.

Madam Speaker, may I begin by first of all –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Munsanje: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, and welcome to this session.

Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was contributing to the debate on the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters on public procurement.

Mr Speaker, I wish, first of all, to commend the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) for the capacity building programme it is doing this week. I saw that my district, Choma, is one of those districts it has advertised for its public capacity building programme. However, I ask the ZPPA to decentralise further and devolve its functions, for example, for the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), we want the procurement functions to be in constituency offices as well. I also want to indicate that we want the ZPPA to undertake capacity building programmes in other parts of the constituency so that it can train as many local people as possible, especially following the presidential directive to localise things, and build the capacity of locals. As debated by my colleagues, we want the resources to stay in the constituencies.

Mr Speaker, you will note that most of the bidding requirements are actually favouring the same old bidders who participated in many illegal activities in this country, the various plunder activities that we have experienced in the country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: As such, these are the same people with the money to buy the tender documents at K1,000 and K3,000 and so on and so forth, and the people in the constituencies do not have that kind of money to spend. Even the whole process of registration for the bidders is very expensive and it is about K3,000 to K6,000 for different categories. These are impediments or rigidities which need to be removed in order to allow the people in the constituencies to register as new bidders and to simplify the process so that they can also participate in the national economy.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, the question is, are the policy and legal frameworks suffice? No. These need enhancement and amendment to ensure that they meet the times of today, especially that the CDF has been increased to now K28.3 million, and these funds need to be spent efficiently and speedily. We are calling for the speedy delivery of CDF activities. It is for this reason that I said that we need to devolve some of the functions to the constituency office so that things can move much faster and diligently.

Mr Speaker, we need to continue removing the complexities of the bidding process. For example, builders in the villagers are asked to be registered with the Engineering Institute of Zambia (EIZ) for them to bid to build a toilet in my constituency, Mbabala. That should not suffice. Those are the rigidities we need to remove because there is no need for them to be registered with the EIZ. We already have well known bricklayers. Macha Hospital was built by local bricklayers. Nobody was from outside Macha. Everybody who built it was from within Macha. When you look at the infrastructure, it is excellent. That is what we need. We need apprenticeship certificates for the builders in villages who are excellent so that they can then continue to bid for works without the rigidities of asking them to be registered with the EIZ, asking them for this and that, asking them for ten years experience, and putting up an astronomical fee. That does not help us. Therefore, I call for policy enhancement as well as legal frameworks to be amended.

Mr Speaker, in supporting the report, I further go on to talk about the functions of the ZPPA, which I said need to be devolved further to the constituency office. On the challenges, I think we are talking about the localisation challenges. Some of the procurement officers may not understand the guidance on localisation. The President said that we must start from the ward. Every constituency first needs to consider the bidders in the ward, and these are the things that we need to see now in the various documentation. We will be looking at first of all, bidders in the ward, neighbouring wards, constituency, district, neighbouring districts, the province and the like. Even if it is an open national or international bid, as long as it is put up in one of my wards, my expectation is that, we will start by looking at those who are domiciled in the ward, so that the resources can indeed move fully from the centre to the periphery in line with our Decentralisation and Devolution Policy.

Mr Speaker, I also want to speak about emergency work. Guidelines on emergency work are missing, and most of the time, councils or CDF Committees do not seem to know what to do with emergency work. Work, as stated by my colleague, that is designated as emergency is still taking six months or more to be done when it should take just a few days. We need to change this and give effective guidance so that emergency work can be done immediately as an emergency. If anything, funds need to be made available, for example in the constituency office under CDF, for emergency work. These funds can still be retired but can deal with things very quickly.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: For example, when a pipe drops in a borehole, we should not wait for the procurement process for us to buy a pipe. We should be able to get it. If there is a K5,000 meant for emergency work in the constituency office, we should be able to get that money and use it to buy the pipe and fix the borehole so that we do not waste time. I have a number of those kind of issues where we just need to buy a pipe, one piece, a pump or something like that, and that is why we are saying that we should remove the rigidities so it is easy for us to do these things.

Mr Speaker, associated issues include monitoring and supporting contractors. For example, regarding the building process, there is a process of getting certification before payment and stuff like that. This too contributes to the delays in the procurement process and in attaining value for money. What we are looking for is value for money for us to be able to get quality for the jobs being done in order to eradicate issues that brought this country down like those of fire tenders, ambulances, expired drugs, and even the Eurobond that failed to work and has left us with broken bridges and roads.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker. Order!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Mweetwa): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of this House. I had to indulge in this discussion because of the passion I have for procurement processes and procedures in this country.

As you may know, Mr Speaker, not too long ago, the Zambia Institute of Purchasing and Supply (ZIPS) honoured me as a fellow.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: So, I am qualified to comment on this Motion as I support the same.

Let me also indicate, Mr Speaker, that I do adopt the debate of my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbabala, as my own. I wish to indicate that this New Dawn Administration has worked wonders. We are talking about procurements and processes, and today, the whole country is involved in bidding and procurements because the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) unselectively has gone to all the constituencies in amounts that only two years ago, no one imagined could become reality.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: I have just come from the province and constituency, Mr Speaker, and last week, I was in Namwala. The country side has become a fabrication site. The people at the local level are involved in the manufacturing of desks and they bid at the councils to be given the contracts. I do acknowledge that there may have been challenges to do with the absorption capacity, but those challenges are being ironed out. I am happy to report to this House that despite the procedures and processes relating to bidding and the challenges thereof, CDF is working. Today, even those who were saying CDF is not working have stopped saying that because they are number one beneficiaries.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, when we were in the Opposition, we did not have the opportunity to be relevant to our electorates. Today, all hon. Members of Parliament can tell their electorates to go and bid and become suppliers of desks, anything, and become contractors. The Government requires the support of all well-meaning Zambians.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I want to indicate that unlike what we saw in the past when it came to bidding, which was a preserve of those who were associated with the Ruling Party, and the major bidders, contractors and suppliers were hon. Ministers, hon. Members of Parliament and surrogates of the Ruling Party, today, all Zambians are free to bid.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: That is why when you look at the local debt today, you can go and do a forensic audit to create integrity of numbers, and you will find that the majority or quite a good number of the major contractors and suppliers were those who were in the Government and those who were aligned politically to it. President HH (Hakainde Hichilema) has brought that kind of political misconduct to an end. We are now moving on a new trajectory where regardless of which political party you belong to, provided you are an entrepreneur or business person, and you have a bankable document to bid for contracts of supply and construction, you will get the contract and no one will ask which political party you belong to.

Mr Speaker, this country is on the move and that is why I am happy that a number of our colleagues in the Opposition agree that we only have one country and they also note that there can only be one party in office at a particular time and no party will live forever. So, when a particular party is in office, it needs support so that it continues to do the right things, the same way we supported members of the Patriotic Front (PF) when they were in the Government.

On the Floor of this House, Mr Speaker, we used to advise. We never just used to criticise. We used to offer policy alternatives. What I have seen in this country in the last few months is an absurdity, where you have an opposition which is qualified only in criticising on things that are unsubstantiatable. So, as we debate this Motion, let us agree on one thing. We have one country, we have one President, we have one interest and when it comes to procurements, no one will be discriminated, and President HH and his Administration have exemplified themselves.

Mr Speaker, going forward, therefore, let us argue on politics, not on policy, because there is nothing to argue about. That is why on social media, television or radio, there are no issues. This Government and its President is working. Therefore, I support this Motion.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, and let me appreciate and thank Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya for presenting the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters on public procurement.

Mr Speaker, let me begin by stating here that, indeed, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is a game changer.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Chibuye: Mr Speaker, if the CDF, as the grapevine is saying, is going to be increased, I assure you, and as the hon. Minister for Southern Province has stated, that this country shall change in terms of developmental aspects in the constituencies. The Government meant well when it increased the CDF from K1.6 million to K25.7 million and later to K28.3 million. However, when the CDF was increased, the President and the Government are on record stating that its beneficiaries were to be the people, especially those on the grassroots.

The President categorically stated that the project component of the CDF, which is the major component, should be done by the people in the constituencies, and that is the local contractors. However, there are many challenges for the local contractors, who actually ululated when these pronouncements were made.

Mr Speaker, the procurement process is too cumbersome, tedious and boring for the people who are trying to jump on the springboard to ensure that they participate in the construction industry in the constituencies. Why should there be so many statutory requirements for someone who is just starting as a contractor? We all start with one step. Just as the saying goes, Rome was not built in a day. So, we need to give space to the people who are trying to get on the bandwagon as contractors. I know it is a statutory requirement, but why should procurement entities, especially local authorities, require a newly established company to produce the National Council for Construction (NCC) certificate, which costs about K1,400 and the Engineering Institute of Zambia (EIZ) subscription, which costs about K4,000, the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) and Workers Compensation Fund Control Board (WCFCB) contributions? All these things put together.

Mr Speaker, it is sad that the EIZ – and I believe I should bring a question very soon –actually went a step further and went to procurement entities such as councils countrywide and instructed them to not accept any bids from contractors that do not have EIZ certificates. Where is the EIZ drawing its mandate because it does not regulate the construction industry? This must be stopped in order for the people down there to feel the benefit of this Government, including me. Once a school or clinic is built in my constituency, the people who will benefit are the local contractors.

Mr Speaker, as Members of Parliament, we have been blamed that we are not doing enough even when the President pronounced that certain jobs should go to local contractors. We have been highly blamed by local contractors that we are not helping them because construction works are going to people outside the constituencies. We need these lacunas to be nipped in the bud.

Mr Speaker, I also want to bring it to the attention of the Government that it is, indeed, sad that when an institution such as the local authority advertises a contract, the bidding time is ninety days, but when it expires, people are made to pay K1,500 or K3,000 for the bids. At the end of the day, the officers at the council cancel these bids, wash their hands and say they are not responsible for anything. However, when they re-advertise the bids, they want the same contractors to pay again, and I ask the Government to look into this matter. This is not fair. Once you advertise, you cannot put a disclaimer to the advertisement. When the advertiser or an institution misses something in the advertisement, it must take responsibility, not a situation in which it knows that it made errors and cancels the contract, and later on re advertises, and wants the contractors or suppliers to pay the bidding fee again. That is unfair.

Mr Speaker, in the same vein, I want the Government to take this matter seriously. It is important that when you bid and you do not secure that job, you are given a debriefing. What do I mean? It is common sense that when I advertise, people will bid. After writing examinations at school, you are given a statement of results. So, when you bid and you do not get the job, the council or the institutions must be able to call the bidders and give them a debrief of what went on and explain to them that they errored or missed on a, b, c, d, not whereby you just read that the job has been given to someone, or when passing, you find a contractor on site working. That is not fair. So, the Government must look into that matter.

Mr Speaker, contracts must also be given in a transparent manner. We are aware that the Government is trying to be as transparent as it can be. However, when an institution advertises for bids and the results come out, it must give a period of fourteen days by standard and show that out of so many who bid for the contract, these are the results and the preferred or the responsive bidder is a, b, c, d so that if you have queries, you quickly run to the institution and put up your queries, not where you just hear that the contract has been given. So, we want the Government to work on that so that many people can benefit.

Mr Speaker, I want to say that, indeed, procurement processes must be worked on so that a lot of people in this country can benefit. However, I support the report.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the people of Kabwe Central, to add a voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor. The people of Kabwe were almost asking if they are invisible, or maybe their Member of Parliament is not working. Thank God I have not been cut off, and I have been given an opportunity to submit.

Mr Speaker, I have two points I want to bring to the attention of the House on the Motion on the Floor of the House. A lot has been said, but what I can say is that there is an urgent need to review the Public Procurement Act so that all the issues that hon. Members have brought on board are looked into. If we are to uphold the three principles as guided by the President on pricing, timely delivery of contracts and quality, we have to make sure that we amend or review the Public Procurement Act.

Mr Speaker, the other point I want to bring to the attention of the House is the delay in approving contracts by the Office of the Attorney-General. I believe this office is there to harmonise legal implications of the contract document. So, I suggest that the Office of the Attorney-General reviews the contract document depending on the procurement. If it is the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), we can have a uniform one reviewed and all legal implications ironed out so that we are not required to submit our contracts to the Office of the Attorney-General for approval. The same function can be devolved to the local level so that we speed up the procurement of contracts. That is really going to help us. If it is something to do with procurement at the national level, let us also have a uniform contract document so that we speed up the process because we are having many challenges, especially with CDF contracts. Imagine, there are 156 constituencies and if each constituency submits five contracts, we are already talking about 880 contracts at a go that the Attorney-General needs to go through and approve. So, there is a great need to have a uniform contract document. If that function is devolved, there will be no need to submit contract documents to the Office of the Attorney-General.

Mr Speaker, this is what I wanted to emphasise. Let us make sure that we harmonise the issues to deal with the contract document. This will really help us with regard to the timely delivery of contracts.

With those few words, I submit and I support the Motion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for according me this opportunity to add my voice to this very important debate.

Mr Speaker, it has been said and argued that the enhancement of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is a very good thing, and all of us have stated that. By doing so, we have also stated the challenges we are facing in various constituencies, more especially when it comes to the procurement process. We have appealed for the decentralisation of the procurement process, unlike bringing documents all the way from Mpika, for instance, to have them approved by the Attorney-General in Lusaka, which usually takes a month, two or so.

Mr Speaker, we heard on the Floor of the House today, some colleagues talking about what happened in the past as allegedly some imaginary political party members got contracts. We have a challenge in most constituencies today. A named political party cadre participated in the procurement process for road making equipment. When that person was left out, because of his position, he appealed to the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA), and it cancelled that process. Kanchibiya, Mpika, Mpulungu and other constituencies have been affected, …

Dr Mwanza: Kaumbwe!

Mr Kapyanga: … including Kaumbwe, this is what Dr Mwanza is saying, right now.

Mr Munsanje: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, we have not said a thing, neither have we included that in our debates. So, how important then is it to come and talk about what happened in the past instead of working on what we should do going forward to perfect the process so that we serve our people better?

I am also aware that Section 47 of the Public Procurement Act No.8 of 2020 allows for single sourcing but, of course, to achieve – Allow me, Mr Speaker, to quote the Act and Section No.47 says as follows:

“(1) The objective of direct selection is to achieve timely and efficient procurement, …”.

That is what it says, Mr Speaker. However, we have had fertiliser worth US$50 million being single sourced, and the people involved are those who are lucky to align themselves with the Ruling Party.

Mr Munsanje: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, concerning the procurement of US$100 million hospitals, …

Mr Katakwe: Fire tenders!

Mr Kapyanga: … the people involved are those who are lucky, …

Mr Munsanje: Fire tenders!

Mr Kapyanga: … to align themselves to the Ruling Party. However, what I am saying is that what is important right now is to talk about how we need to perfect the procurement processes going forward. It is so upsetting for someone to come on the Floor of the House and talk about what happened in the past when most hon. Members here were not even there.

Mr Speaker, allow me to also submit that to suggest that whatever those on your left, those in the Opposition, are saying today by one who has become very arrogant because of the power one is enjoying is upsetting. It is so unfortunate.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, our role is to provide oversight on the Executive. That is the role of Parliament. So, why then should those who have experience in the House call our participation in that process as absurd? We have tried on several occasions to provide alternative policy for the Executive.

Mr Munsanje: Where?

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, we have moved motions that have been shot down on the Floor of the House out of arrogance. The same motions that would have been very good, –

Mr Sing’ombe: Yes, because they were useless!

Mr Kapyanga: Another one is saying they were useless. That is what arrogance does, but good, the Zambian people know how to teach arrogant people a lesson.

Hon. UPND Members: PF!

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: 2026, which to my brother, −

Mr Nkandu interjected.

Mr Kapyanga: The hon. Minister there of course, is a good man.

Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that I support the report of your Committee, and I urge those who have become arrogant to not use the report for their political machinations. It does not make any political sense, more especially at a time when the Zambian people want sound leadership which is going to reduce the high cost of living, and public procurement that we are talking about can be part of that solution which the Zambian people are looking forward to. Should our colleagues fail to listen to their cries, myself and the team are very ready in 2026 to come and provide the leadership which they missed in 2021.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: Keep dreaming, dreams are free.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister of Health will respond on behalf of the Executive.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Acting hon. Minister of Finance and National Development will respond on behalf of the Government. I just want to add my voice to this very important debate on the Motion arising from the report –

Mr Chitotela rose.

Mr Nkandu: Chitotela sit down!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister of Health is responding in her acting capacity as Minister of Finance and National Planning. So, she is responding on behalf of the Executive.

Mr Kafwaya: She is refusing!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I have been indicating for some time to add my voice to the debate on this important Motion.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You can go ahead, hon. Minister.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I rise to support the Motion, and to state two or three points because this is a very important matter.

The issue of public procurement, Mr Speaker, as you will appreciate, has affected many ministries in fact. On behalf of the Ministry of Health, you are aware that I came on the Floor of this House, and made promises of procuring ambulances last year, but we did not come through. I just want to say that what hon. Members have said, both on your left and right, is correct. I appreciate that and I assure the hon. Members that as the Government, and speaking for the Ministry of Health, we have taken steps to try and ensure that the delays are not prolonged to this extent. Obviously, this also involves reviewing the Public Procurement Act, which hon. Members are calling for. I hope that when that time comes, hon. Members on your left and right will really support the changes that will be brought. Speaking of health, we cannot treat health as we treat roads. Roads can wait, but issues of health can never wait. Therefore, it will be necessary that through the amendments that will be brought here, we remind each other that health is such a critical sector that really cannot be exposed to long and tedious procedures as some hon. Members have stated.

Mr Speaker, I also want to say that when procedures become so lengthy, it is actually a recipe for corruption, and in the process, we have seen corruption, indeed. This is because when you complicate an issue just know that you are making smart boys, not girls but boys, use loopholes to make money. In the process, the Government and successive governments have continued to lose money because of tedious and long procedures.

Mr Speaker, I also want to remind hon. Members that this Administration is implementing the Decentralisation Policy, which is an old policy that was supported by all successive governments starting, I think, two decades ago. So, sometimes I wonder how we came up with such an Act that forgot about the Decentralisation Policy and brought all the power to the city of Lusaka in terms of legalities, meaning the Ministry of Justice. Even when it comes to the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) itself and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, you find that one from Chama has to go the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to seek authority.

The same person also has to go to the Ministry of Justice to seek support. Again, the same application has to go to the ZPPA apart from the processes that happen at the local level. I believe that, indeed, the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy will go a long way in giving power to the people at the district level, and not just power, but also matching resources as we have already seen now obviously, with the financial decentralisation. Personally, having been an advocate of decentralisation for the last three decades, I am so happy that at last, we have a Government that does not just talk, but walks the talk.

Hon. Government Members: Here, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, some of the problems, and even the issues hon. Members are bringing, are of our own making because of making the same mistakes. It is in this House that laws are made by us. So, when we speak like this when we are the same people who made these laws, we then begin to sound hypocritical to those who have not been given the chance to represent the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I also want to comment on the issue that somebody raised concerning single sourcing. The Leader of the Opposition said that single sourcing is not good and must be avoided, but he recognised that it is also legal, except of course as he rightly put it, it has to be for a good reason. So, I want to tell him that the Government is very committed to doing things in a democratic manner and also in a manner that is transparent and does not encourage corruption. This Administration, true to its word, is committed.

Obviously, I want people to understand that we work with different players and issues of procurement are beyond politicians; mainly they are with civil servants. It is true to say that even now, there are still civil servants who have a corrupt mind. However, I will tell you that because the top leadership is true to the fight of corruption, you will see that cases of corruption are going down.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: They shall continue to go down, and we shall continue cleaning up the Civil Service to ensure that we remain with sense. Others are changing, but there are others who are not changing. However, let me also say that sometimes, you are forced to use single sourcing, especially in the Ministry of Health. We will continue at times to use that because it is necessary for us to use it. However, I agree that sometimes people use single sourcing to do deals, but let me assure the House that as the Government, and the Ministry of Health in particular, we are determined to ensure that the corruption of the past has no chance in our ministry. We shall continue to make sure that – It does not matter how people outside there want to use individuals in this House to clean their corruption; we shall fight. It does not matter how much they fight to try and paint others corrupt so that they confuse the public, we shall make sure that there is no corruption in our ministries and that only credible procurements are done.

Having said that, Mr Speaker, in supporting this Motion, considering that hon. Members both on your right and left are speaking the same language, we, in the Executive, can work fast to bring amendments to the Public Procurement Act so that we quickly move on with developing our country because the President is in a hurry to develop this country. We are all in a hurry and the Zambian people are indeed, in a hurry. Even the hon. Mr Speaker is in a hurry to see his constituency being developed.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: That is very true, hon. Minister.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: You are supposed to be neutral, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, listen. The hon. Minister said that even the Speaker is in a hurry to develop his constituency and I said yes, I am in a hurry.

Laughter

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (on behalf of the Minister of Finance and National Development (Dr Musokotwane): I thank you, Mr Speaker.

First of all, I thank the mover of the Motion, the Member for Lunte, Hon. Kafwaya, who is also the Chairperson of the Committee, and also the seconder of the Motion, the Member for Mufumbwe, Hon. Kamondo.

Mr Speaker, let me take this opportunity to thank your Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters for the important report tabled on public procurement in Zambia. I also note, with gratitude, the commendation of your Committee to the Government and for having brought before this House, one of the key roles of the Government, which is to procure public goods and services.

Mr Speaker, in the report, your Committee raised several issues and made some very important recommendations. Noting that public procurement in Zambia is informed by the Zambia Public Finance Act, we as the Ministry of Finance and National Planning will most certainly undertake a thorough review of the report to ensure that all matters are addressed accordingly. Matters which fall under the authority of the provision of public goods and services partly depend on the efficiency and effectiveness of the public procurement system which accounts for a significant portion of the nation’s economy. Indeed, public procurement in Zambia is guided by the Public Procurement (Amendment) Bill, 2023.

Mr Speaker, indeed, public procurement in Zambia, as I have said, is guided by the Public Procurement Act which is continuously undergoing review. You may wish to note that we currently have the Public Procurement (Amendment) Bill, 2023, which proposes to amend a number of sections that impose multiple and unnecessary approval levels resulting in some levels of inefficiency.

The following, Mr Speaker, are some of the issues that we are proposing to amend:

1. the removal of seeking authority from the Treasury and the Public Procurement Act at various stages of procurement. The amendment is proposing for procuring entities to obtain such approvals through the appropriate approval authority who can be either the controlling officer or the procurement committee;
2. another key amendment relates to clearance of contracts by the Attorney-General, and I heard a lot of debate on that this afternoon, where procuring entities will now only be required to submit contracts for tenders that are above the threshold for simplified bidding and simplified selection procurement methods to the Attorney-General for legal advice. So, they have to reach just a certain threshold. This will enhance efficiency in procurement processes, especially for CDF projects;
3. enhancing efficiency in the public procurement processes to enable procuring entities to commence procurement proceedings once their budgets are approved without the need for them to wait for actual receipt of the funds. This amendment will ensure that public procurements commence in good time;
4. the Bill also proposes to allow both citizens and local bidders to participate in the procurement process in open national bidding. This will shorten the procurement process as there will be no need to undertake a two-phase procurement process in the absence of successful citizen bids. To preserve positive discrimination to citizen bidders, a margin of preference shall be given to citizen bidders.

Mr Speaker, I am confident that the enhancement of the proposed Bill will assist the Government in ensuring that public procurement processes are conducted a timely manner to enhance efficiency and value for money in the procurement process.

Mr Speaker, the purpose of procuring, tightening and amending these Bills is to achieve what the President of the Republic of Zambia, His Excellency President Hakainde Hichilema, has often times directed, that all procurements in this country must follow the three criteria, which is the right price, the right specifications and the right delivery time. My ministry, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) and other stakeholders will also closely review the findings and recommendations of your Committee, so that these issues are addressed appropriately.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, thank you so much.

Mr Speaker, this report attracted debate from twelve hon. Members of Parliament, three of whom are hon. Ministers, signifying its importance. Let me thank all the hon. Members who have contributed in support of this report.

Mr Speaker, I take note that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has been prominent in the application of public procurement. I would like to remind my hon. Colleagues that CDF is important. The K4.1 billion in the budget is an important amount. This public procurement must also consider the procurement of fertiliser, medicines and investors to invest in the mining sector, and even those who are yet to come and invest in Konkola Copper Mine (KCM) and Mopani Copper Mine. Those are important procurements.

Mr Speaker, I will not speak much, but I am very grateful for the support from the hon. Members.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND SOCIAL SERVICES

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 13^th June, 2023.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Amutike interjected.

Laughter

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, as a Committee, we are reporting principally on two issues, obviously moving away from procurement. We are reporting on the review of the Social Cash Transfer Programme in Zambia and the operations of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service.

Mr Speaker, I am very sure that hon. Members have gone through the entire report and are familiar with the subject matters under discussion and will, therefore, not belabour to dwell into the entire report. So, I will just give a few salient points, and I hope that my colleague too, as he seconds the Motion, will come in and amplify further.

Mr Speaker, what your Committee observed is that despite having made some strides in alleviating poverty using the Social Cash Transfer Programme, the programme still faces some challenges, and I am sure hon. Members will agree. Among others, the payment system, the lack of sensitisation of the programme’s requirements and also an inadequate legal framework.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also observed that a number of households requiring social protection has been on the rise. Currently, the poverty levels are estimated to be about 61 per cent of the country’s population, meaning that quite a good number of our citizens are in this category and need social protection, but the funds are not sufficient to go round all of them.

Mr Speaker, with that in mind, your Committee expresses concern that the Social Cash Transfer Programme is still policy driven and that currently, there is no legal framework that guides its operations. This is very important and we recommend that an appropriate legal instrument be drafted to ring-fence the operations of the Social Cash Transfer Programme.

Further, Mr Speaker, we recommend that the Government intensifies sensitisation to all our citizens with regard to this very important programme, especially regarding the criteria used for one to qualify to be on this programme. For example, most people complained about being left out, and I am sure hon. Members have encountered this sort of thing in their constituencies. They were being left out of the programme because they were not aware of the fact that if a household has two or more people qualifying for the programme, only one member of the household is allowed to be on this programme. In addition, applicants of the Social Cash Transfer Programme usually are not given feedback as to why they were left out, leading to many complaints as to why they were not successful.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observed with concern that in all the areas that it visited, some critical needy households are not on the programme due to shared National Registration Card (NRC) numbers. It was common to find that one NRC applies to several other beneficiaries and once this happens, definitely the system will reject the others. So, they did not understand why they were left out. This situation is extremely unfortunate. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the digitalisation of the NRC numbers should be expedited so that possible beneficiaries do not continue to be disadvantaged.

Mr Speaker, let me now turn to the important matter of the operations of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. I am sure most of you are aware of this very important wing of our health service delivery system in this country.

Mr Speaker, firstly, the Zambia Flying Doctor Service is mandated to carry out routine medical outreach activities in remote and hard-to-reach areas. Secondly, it is also responsible for carrying out evacuations, particularly in cases of emergencies for any citizen anywhere in this country. It is also gratifying that the management of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service is supplementing Government grants through a robust diversification programme, which has seen the service raise extra revenue through air charters and provision of private medical services to Ndola residents.

Further, we have also seen that the Zambia Flying Doctor Service under the current management has increased routine and specialised medical outreaches as well as evacuations, which is different from the past. Funds allowing, in the year 2023, the service plans to undertake eight concurrent outreaches per day/per month targeting well over 100,000 citizens from remote and hard-to-reach areas. 100,000 citizens in one given year is quite a lot of work to undertake when we compare to how the service has been operating in the past.

Mr Speaker, I want to place on record, your Committee’s deep appreciation of the tremendous work that the current Zambia Flying Doctor Service Management is undertaking in complementing the Ministry of Health in the delivery of health services to remote and hard-to-reach areas. Basically, this was a service that was on the verge of collapse with very few evacuations and outreaches that were being undertaken, but we have seen a tremendous turnaround and, as a Committee, we take note and congratulate the management at the institution.

Mr Speaker, your Committee notes the turnaround on the operations of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service amidst many challenges such as outdated policy and law, which is very old, and governs the current operations of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. We also saw a lot of under capitalisation that went on for a long time and the lack of adequate equipment, just to mention but a few challenges. In this regard, your Committee urges the Government to expedite the process of amending the Flying Doctor Service Act, Chapter 298 of the Laws of Zambia, in order to make it responsive to the changing health sector landscape currently.

Further, your Committee urges the Government to recapitalise the service, to enable it procure at least one helicopter, one pressurised aeroplane, and aero medical equipment such as an air ambulance among other requirements. This will enable the Zambia Flying Doctor Service to effectively discharge its mandate. I must also mention that your Committee noted the innovation of the current management in actually ensuring that one aeroplane, which was grounded, be fixed and it ordered a new engine. At the time we were visiting, it was undergoing testing, and the institution used its own funds.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to render my sincere gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the services rendered to your Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services throughout its deliberations. Gratitude is extended to all stakeholders including the Provincial Minister of the Copperbelt who welcomed your Committee as it spent some days in Ndola trying to understand the operations of this very important wing of the Government, which needs the support of all of us. I am sure some of us have testimonies of what the Zambia Flying Doctor Service has been able to do or what it can do if it is supported.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I beg to move.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Dr Mwanza: Now, Mr Speaker.

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Kaumbwe, to contribute to the debate on the report on the challenges, and opportunities in the Zambia Doctor Flying Service and the operations of the Social Cash Transfer Programme.

Mr Speaker, from the outset, I thank the mover of the Motion and the Chairperson of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services, Dr Kalila, for ably moving the Motion. I would like to say that the Social Cash Transfer Programme is real and it is present in all the 116 districts in the country and social welfare officers are readily available to administer this wonderful programme that evolved, started, and was rolled out in 2002 and ably administered through the Patriotic Front (PF) regime up to 2021 and …

Hon. Member: Ah! It has been increased that one, MMD!

Dr Mwanza: … is ably being perfected in the New Dawn Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, through our tour of duty, we discovered that most of the people who were interviewed gave many success stories. The Social Cash Transfer Programme of course has been increased from K200 to K400 per two months and for the severely disabled, it is K800 and then the mild disabled people fall in the category of K400. Since the report has been circulated to hon. Members and as alluded to –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I did not hear you. Did you say it has been increased?

Dr Mwanza: Yes, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: To how much?

Dr Mwanza: To K800 for the severely disabled people and K400 for the poverty-stricken and vulnerable people in society…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwanza: … and the funds are consistently disbursed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I will not dwell much on the challenges that we found out in the field because the report is well-explanatory. I will talk about one major challenge, the challenge that the programme is facing. I will use a graph, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwanza: … because we are in the graph era, to explain the administration of the Social Cash Transfer Programme. Shehui xianjin zigin, means social cash transfer.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Come again.

Dr Mwanza: Shehui xianjin zigin …

Hon. Members: Meaning?

Dr Mwanza: … means social cash transfer. The Social Cash Transfer Programme can be looked at in a graph format.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: What language was that? Translate.

Dr Mwanza: Mandarin Chinese, Mr Speaker, and I provided able translation.

Mr Speaker, there is a scenario that the Social Cash Transfer Programme is presenting to the country. If you look at the two-plane cartesian graph, it has the ordinate, which is the y-axis and then the abscissa, which is the x-axis. So, on the x-axis, we have the number of years, which is from 2003 to date because the Social Cash Transfer Programme was rolled out from 2006 to date, and we are in 2023. Now the number of beneficiaries can be on the y-axis and also the resources, the amount of money, that are availed to the programme are also on the other y-axis.

Mr Speaker, you find that the more the Government rolls out the programme every year, the more eligible beneficiaries we have. Therefore, the two curves on the graph, one for resources and the other for demand from the people or household beneficiaries, keep on rising. The two curves can never meet because the rate of eligible beneficiaries keeps on increasing quickly, whilst the resources to support the programme also continue increasing. To have an ideal situation, however, they must converge at some point. When there is that convergence, it means that the amount of money spent on social assistance is consistent with the objective of the programme to reduce poverty as well as vulnerability. This mathematical scenario is what we call an asymptotic behaviour of the curves, meaning it has a long-term behaviour problem that the two curves can never meet. They can never convergence because the resource basket is limited.

Mr Speaker, the question now is: How can we sustain this programme? Do we sustain it perpetually? An asymptotic behaviour graph is a mathematical concept that describes the behaviour of curves that can never meet. Even if the people on your left-hand side go to the other side in 2026, the curves will never converge. Therefore, it is a question of sustainability. How sustainable is this programme? Are we going to maintain this programme perpetually? The asymptotic behaviour that I have explained here is that as the number of years keeps on increasing, the number of beneficiaries keeps on rising.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

As we are debating, let us stick to the contents of the report.

Dr Mwanza interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Your time is up. You concentrated on talking about people moving.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this report.

Mr Speaker, when I was going through this report, I took note of three issues that I want to bring to the attention of the Executive, specifically the hon. Minister responsible for community development and social welfare.

Mr Speaker, when you go around our communities today, you will find that the living standards of our people are becoming a challenge because the cost of living is rising every day. What is surprising is that the ministry responsible for community development and social protection is slowing becoming the ministry dealing with only the Social Cash Transfer Programme, ignoring other valuable and important duties and responsibilities that it is supposed to do.

Mr Speaker, there are a number of people who are struggling, who are supposed to be protected by the Government from the shocks of the economy. That is why the late President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, introduced a ministry responsible for the people who may not manage to sustainably look after themselves, and he called it the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

Mr Speaker, under the Patriotic Front (PF) Administration, President Michael Chilufya Sata renamed the ministry to the ministry responsible for community development, mother and child health. This is because it is important to look at the beginning of a child’s life if you are to create a sustainable future. If we are to raise people who are able to sustain and run this country, we need to address child health. Once we miss it at the tender age, it becomes very difficult to address future problems. These are the results we come to see in the later stages of human development.

Right now, Mr Speaker, if you go to Luangeni, Chipata, Pambashe and Mfuwe, much of the activities for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services have died, and everybody just talks about the Social Cash Transfer Programme. What has happened to the other functions? What of those people who may not qualify for the Social Cash Transfer Programme? What protective measures is the Government putting in place to protect the people who may not be able to sustainably support themselves? The country is not only about the people who are entitled to the Social Cash Transfer Programme. Social protection is not about the Social Cash Transfer Programme. We must be able to look at the welfare of all human beings who are not able to sustain themselves.

Mr Speaker, I also want to talk about the services of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. It is good to have a report, but once you have the experience, like the mover of the Motion, Dr Kalila, you will be able to see that it is not as rosy as the report is suggesting. Imagine a villager from Kawambwa being charged US$10,000 for the flying doctor service, to fly to Kawambwa to pick up a patient. These are real experiences and these are things that are happening.

Madam Speaker, if the hon. Minister of Health is doubting, I will sit down with her and show her the invoices and the deposit slips.

Mr Katakwe: Hmm, US$10,000.

Mr Chitotela: US$10,000, and we are here saying the Zambia Flying Doctor Service has improved. It is providing services and it is going to unleash – yes, it is important but the Zambia Flying Doctor Service was created to serve the critically ill people who may not be able to manage to go to Government facilities for specialised treatment. That was the intention of creating the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. It was not created for a commercial purpose.

Mr Speaker, it is, therefore, important that we take interest as we are operating this service that is supposed to provide a specialised service to the needy people who require it. We need to make sure that we provide that service and the Zambian people benefit. It is a very important institution because it is able to reach far-flung areas where there are no specialised services. The Zambia Flying Doctor Service must be able to provide that service to those people who live in those areas.

Mr Speaker, these are the two key issues I wanted to bring out. I do not intend to debate longer but I wish to remind the Executive that as we provide for social protection, it is not just the Social Cash Transfer Programme. There are a number of people who are not on the Social Cash Transfer Programme, who need Government protection against the shocks of the economy. Much as the Zambia Flying Doctor Service is very important for the provision of secondary health care, it must not be turned into a commercial venture.

With those few words, Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Kabwata, to add my voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, allow me, first of all, to give the background of the report that is before the House.

Mr Speaker, let me inform the House what actually happened between 2016 and 2021, and whether our colleagues who were in the Government then had the political will to resuscitate the Zambia Flying Doctor Service.

Mr Speaker, if you read the report very carefully, you will understand that between 2015 and 2021, the Zambia Flying Doctor Service was actually in a coma. It was in the intensive care and it actually needed to be resuscitated. You know what usually happens when somebody needs resuscitation; you need a jab and that is adrenaline. That is what actually happened with the Zambia Flying Doctor Service between that period.

You could see that our colleagues did not even have the political will. They saw the many challenges that the Zambia Flying Doctor Service was having. Mr Speaker, I can tell you that between that time and 2021, was the time the Zambia Flying Doctor Service was yearning for aeroplanes and helicopters. It is suffice to say that we saw our colleagues who were given the mandate to govern buying helicopters instead of them dedicating the service to the Zambia Flying Doctor Service, and that is the reason I am saying there was no political will. We never saw any investment between 2016 and 2021.

Mr Speaker, Sir, if you look at the funding aspect of it, it was so pathetic and chaotic. When you read the report, you will understand that between 2015 and 20 –

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order! There is a point of order. Against who?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, Standing Orders No. 65 and No. 58 speak about tedious repetition. If I address you as Mr Speaker, I should not say Mr Speaker, Sir. It is a tedious repetition.

Laughter

Mr Chitotela: Then on relevancy of speech, what has the procurement of a chopper by a private individual got to do with a Government programme and –

Mr Munsanje: Why are you worried?

Mr Chitotela: … is that in the report? The individual referred to is not here to defend himself. We need to protect private citizens who are not here to defend themselves. This is Parliament and what we are debating will be on record. If we allow anybody to stand here and debate people who may not come here to defend themselves, we will be infringing on their rights, and we are violating the Standing Orders that govern us.

I seek your serious guidance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member for Pambashe.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

If I heard the hon. Member for Kabwata clearly, at no time did he ever mention about individuals buying helicopters. He was just merely putting up a blanket statement, but I do not know how you have individualised it hon. Member, that there were individuals who were buying choppers.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I do not know from what context you arrived at that because I did not hear him say that and he did not mention any individual. I did not get it that there is an individual whom he mentioned. Maybe, my – I do not know, but I did not hear him.

May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tayengwa: Mr Speaker, if my colleague actually read the report, it mentions the challenges of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. It actually talked about the service acquiring a helicopter and that is the reason I am saying that if our colleagues had the political will, they would have actually taken money and bought a helicopter for the Zambia Flying Doctor Service.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tayengwa: Mr Speaker, on the issue of funding the institution, between 2015 and 2021, you will discover that the Zambia Flying Doctor Service acquired a debt of K19.6 million. The reason is better known to those who were in the Government at that particular time because they never showed any political will to invest in the institution. If our colleagues had the desire to invest in the Zambia Flying Doctor Service, today, we would not be talking about the issue of it having two aeroplanes. They would have invested in the institution and even bought aeroplanes.

Mr Speaker, our colleagues never considered investing in airstrips. If you read the report, you will understand that immediately after 2021, things started moving, all because of the goodwill and the political will that the New Dawn Government has.

Mr Speaker, allow me to say that I understand why between 2015 and 2021, our colleagues failed to invest in the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. It was all because our colleagues thought that they will never come out of power.

Mr Speaker, among the many challenges highlighted in the report is the lack of enough aeroplanes. If you read and understand why all of the sudden from 2021 the Zambia Flying Doctor Service started picking, it is because the Government is now paying attention to the many challenges that the institution was going through.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tayengwa: Mr Speaker, allow me to inform you that if the New Dawn Government had not come into power, we would have actually seen the collapse of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service.

Mr Speaker, this institution plays a key role in providing health services to our people in rural areas. I have lived in rural areas. I have lived in Chilubi Island; that is where my parents come from. I have lived in the North-Western Province and I understand the challenges. However, if you check, you will see that our colleagues never took time to even develop the airstrips.

Mr Speaker, I know time is not with me, but I can tell you that it needed people with political will to change the facelift of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service.

Mr Speaker, allow me to comment about the Social Cash Transfer Programme. We need to understand that the Social Cash Transfer Programme has actually come to change the many lives of our people who are suffering, especially those in rural areas. I think the issue of the Community Welfare Assistance Committee (CWAC) members is something that we should look at. There is no way that the CWAC members can only volunteer without receiving not even an allowance. I think there is a need for us to start motivating the CWAC members so that they can do their job with due diligence.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I want to state on this Floor the House that I support the report.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me thank the Chairperson and indeed your Committee for the report which highlights the many issues we are facing as a community.

Mr Speaker, I will restrict my debate on the Social Cash Transfer Programme, and I will look at it from a point of view of a beneficiary or a would-be beneficiary from Mufulira, which is an urban setup.

Mr Speaker, the objective of the Social Cash Transfer Programme is to reduce extreme poverty, as the report clearly states, and that is what we know because it is a social protection programme. My first point is that we understand the amounts that are paid to the beneficiaries. Those who are not able to take care of themselves, the aged, get K200 per month, and those with severe disabilities get K400 per month.

Mr Speaker, these amounts, maybe in the rural setup, may be adequate to reduce or alleviate poverty. However, in an urban establishment, I will say that this amount is actually small; it is meagre. If you have to buy mealie meal at K200 or even above, how is poverty going to be alleviated if a beneficiary is given K200 per month? As I said, from an urban perspective, some of the beneficiaries have to pay rent and they have no income at all. So, they are counting on the Social Cash Transfer Programme to sustain their lives. So, what we need to do is to review these amounts, if they are to achieve the intended objective. Maybe, we should make a distinction between the amounts of the Social Cash Transfer Programme in a rural set up and in an urban set up because, clearly, K200 is nothing if our objective is to reduce poverty. K400 per month is nothing if the objective is to reduce poverty.

Mr Speaker, let me now look at the identification of the beneficiaries. The identification of the beneficiaries leaves much to be desired, and even the report speaks to that. When we are in our parliamentary offices, many people come complaining on how they were left out, when their neighbour or someone they know under the same circumstances was enrolled and is receiving the money. However, since the names of the beneficiaries of the Social Cash Transfer Programme do not pass through the Office of the Member of Parliament, I am actually blank and so are many of my colleagues, yet we are supposed to give proper advice to the social welfare officers on how to conduct the identification process.

Mr Speaker, some beneficiaries will be enrolled a certain month and they will get K200 or K400 as they are given this money on a monthly basis, but they may not be given the next payment. When they go to the social welfare offices to ask why they were skipped, answers are not given. They are simply not given the reasons they were left out and why they were skipped. They are just told to go back home and that they will receive the next payment. So, people live in suspense. Remember, this programme is supposed to alleviate poverty and that is some people’s only hope. People hope that today or next month, they will get the K400 or K200, depending on how many times they are supposed to be paid. So, when they do not get the money, they are thrown into abject poverty.

Mr Speaker, the social welfare offices need to be restructured. Maybe the supervision starting from Lusaka, to the province and to the district needs to be streamlined. People need to know, and it must be explained to them if they qualify or if they do not qualify. Once they are enrolled, they must consistently appear on the pay sheet. When they are not told the reasons they were skipped, they wonder and think that maybe the social welfare officers ‘chewed’ their money. So, this is a problem. As I said, because the offices of hon. Members of Parliament are not involved in the process of identifying beneficiaries, it becomes very difficult to offer solutions.

Mr Speaker, the Social Cash Transfer Programme stands in isolation and it is not achieving the purpose of reducing poverty. We have other social protection programmes such as the Food Security Pack, and even the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) that we are implementing now talks about linking the beneficiaries of the Social Cash Transfer Programme to other social protection programmes so that there is adequate support for them. However, today, you find that someone is just on the Social Cash Transfer Programme and is receiving K200 or K400, and it ends there. How are we going to reduce poverty? The beneficiaries of the Social Cash Transfer Programme must be connected to other social protection programmes.

Mr Speaker, even this idea of saying we are now increasing the beneficiaries, should not be the case. People must not perpetually be on this programme. They must be weaned out. How can they be weaned out? The amount or the protection must be adequate to ensure that they are empowered. We should not take pride in announcing big numbers of beneficiaries of the Social Cash Transfer Programme because it is just a failure. So, people must be weaned out. They must not perpetually remain on the programme. However, because there is no connection with other social protection programmes, we see that people perpetually remain on the programme and poverty is not going to reduce. The intergenerational transfer of poverty will continue.

Finally, Mr Speaker, as I said, I think that in reviewing the structure of the Social Cash Transfer Programme, we must find a way of involving the offices of the hon. Members of Parliament, and that of the councillors, so that the identification of the beneficiaries and the monitoring of those who are excluded or enlisted can be properly explained. As it is, if you asked me how many people in my constituency are on the programme, I will not tell you the number. However, people come to my office and ask me to ask for them if they qualify to be on the programme, or why they were skipped, yet I am blank. So, as we look at restructuring the programme, let us ensure the offices of the hon. Members of Parliament, somehow, have a role to play. That way, we will achieve what the programme is meant to achieve.

I support the report, Mr Speaker.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Chasefu, to add a voice to the debate on this important Motion.

I will start by first talking about the Social Cash Transfer Programme, Mr Speaker. I thank the mover of the Motion, Dr Kalila, for the well-articulated report. I have gone through the report, and my debate is in line with the previous hon. Members’ debate, especially on the identification of the beneficiaries of the Social Cash Transfer Programme. This is a national matter and I appeal to the Government to take interest in finding an immediate solution to the challenge otherwise it will be losing resources because they are going to people who are not intended to benefit. A well-intentioned programme started in 2003, which was supposed to alleviate or reduce or mitigate poverty levels in our country. However, targets are being missed because the monies that the Government is increasing are going to people who are not intended to benefit.

Mr Speaker, I will give examples in my constituency. I have received messages and I have tried to approach our mother, the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, with evidence. Every month, people give us information about being left out. As the previous debater, the hon. Member for Mufulira indicated, a person may be appearing on the programme list, but the following month he/she is not. Programme officers cannot give an explanation. When you approach these people, they will tell you that they will factor it in the next month. This is something that has been going on, and is becoming a culture, a culture that the Government should stop, especially a responsible government like the New Dawn Administration.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Mr Speaker, coming to the issue of the identification of beneficiaries, my proposal is that since we are actualising the Decentralisation Policy that has placed the local authority as the core department to govern the 116 districts, there is no way community development officers should be dealing with these issues without the knowledge of the councillor, the hon. Member of Parliament and councils. The identification of the beneficiaries and other issues to do with grievance handling or complaints should be dealt with in the council chamber. Once these matters go to the council where proceedings will be streamed live, we shall be able to know who the beneficiaries are. When someone dies, you will have to do a review of the whole list using an established institution, which is the local government system, and that is when we are going to talk about actual decentralisation. So, my appeal is that these matters, especially grievance handling, should be dealt with, not by an individual.

Mr Speaker, I agree with other hon. Members that, indeed, we should look at empowering the Community Welfare Assistance Committees (CWACs) with resources. However, these are the people who have become culprits. In terms of handling the issue of identifying beneficiaries, the CWACs are the culprits. They are including their relatives leaving out the people who are supposed to benefit. You find that they are picking people who are not eligible, leaving out eligible people, and the poor people think the Government does not care for them. So, in order for us to show that there is a caring Government, we should ensure that the CWACs report to the lower organs of our governance system which are the councils, councilors and hon. Members’ offices. We should also know what is happening. So, –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

There is too much noise coming from the hon. Member for Lundazi and the hon. Member for Chasefu.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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The House adjourned at 1841 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 21^st June, 2023.

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