Friday, 10th March, 2023

Friday, 10^th March, 2023

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR CHITOTELA, HON. MEMBER FOR PAMBASHE, ON MRS NALUMANGO, HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, ON STAFF WHO DREW UNACCOUNTED FOR ALLOWANCES AND WERE ARRESTED

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President who is the Leader of Government Business in the House and in charge of Cabinet Office.

Madam Speaker, according to the Auditor-General’s report that was commissioned to review the payroll for 2020 to 2021, some staff from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning allegedly drew allowances that could not be accounted for. I commend the Executive for making a decisive decision on the staff.

Madam Speaker, a Cabinet circular prohibited people who are involved in political activities from drawing salaries from the Government payroll. However, the Auditor-General’s report mentioned that after being elected as hon. Member of Parliament in August 2021, one hon. Member of Parliament continued to draw salaries up to January, 2022.

Interruptions

Mr Chitotela: He continued to draw double salaries. As at July, 2022, recovery had not been made.

Madam Speaker, obtaining money by false pretence is a criminal offence. Getting pecuniary advantage because of your office is a criminal offence. Is Her Honour the Vice-President in order to sit quietly and not take action against the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi East, …

Interruptions

Mr Chitotela: … Hon. Dr Katakwe, who continued drawing salaries amounting to K135,000 for the period August, 2021 to January, 2022.

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Ms Kasune: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I stand with the consent of the procedures of the House according to Standing Order No. 65. The hon. Member who has just been speaking has raised concern against an hon. Member of Parliament who is in the House, when the rules are clear that we do not debate ourselves.

Interruptions

Ms Kasune: There are ways and means of bringing such disputes up.

Interruptions

Ms Kasune: The hon. Member cannot defend himself right now as we are in the House.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Deputy Chief Whip, thank you for that point of order. I had prepared a response to that in my ruling because we are supposed to respond to these matters that are brought. I do not want to pre-empt my ruling on the matter that has been raised. So, the House will wait for my ruling.

We proceed. The hon. Member for Mpika may take the Floor.

MR KAPYANGA, HON. MEMBER FOR MPIKA, ON MR MWIIMBU, HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON ABDUCTORS OF MOBILE MONEY AGENTS WHO ESCAPED FROM PRISON

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance is directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, last year, our nation was engulfed in sadness when abductors of mobile money agents were arrested. It was discovered that eleven or so female mobile money agents were abducted by criminal elements. In this activity, even big names were mentioned.

Madam Speaker, in the News Diggers edition of today, there is the headline:

“Abductors escape from prison … as correctional officers shoot down one”

Madam Speaker, let me also hasten to commend this skilful journalism exhibited by this journalist from the News Diggers. The abductors are on the loose right now. The whole nation is worried. The female folks are worried about their safety. Even we, the male folks are also worried because some of these abductors could be homosexuals.

Madam Speaker, I direct this matter of urgent public importance at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security so that he can update the nation and assure the nation on the safety of the Zambian people, especially the mobile money agents.

Madam Speaker, I will lay today’s edition of the News Diggers on the Table.

Mr Kapyanga laid the newspaper on the Table.

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON MS TAMBATAMBA, HON. MINISTER OF LABOUR AND SOCIAL SECURITY, ON SOME WORKERS IN PETAUKE CENTRAL NOT BEING PAID LEGAL MINIMUM WAGE

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke, to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, the good people of Petauke, especially in the private sector, were happy when the New Dawn Government increased the minimum wage in the private sector. I thank the New Dawn Government and the Leader of Government Business in the House for increasing the minimum wage in the private sector.

Madam Speaker, when the minimum wage was increased, the good people of Petauke, especially the workers, were happy. However, yesterday, more than thirty workers who work for a bakery came to complain to me that they are still getting paid K30 a day. They came to complain about the wage they are getting, and their employer is threatening to lay them off.

Madam Speaker, this matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security. Is he in order –

Hon. Members: She!

Mr J. E. Banda: She?

Hon. Members: Yes!

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Okay. Nombaimwe aba sambililatamulanda.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, hon. Member for Petauke Central, continue.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, is she in order to sit quietly whilst the youths and the people in the private sector are being threatened that they will lose jobs?

Madam Speaker, right now, things are hard. You cannot be getting K30 because transport alone is more than that. When these people lose jobs, they will be forced to maybe start stealing and then all of them will be sent to prison and I will not have voters in 2026.

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, this matter is addressed to whom?

Mr J. E. Banda: To the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, Madam Speaker.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of urgent public importance pursuant to Standing Order No. 134.

Madam Speaker, this matter of urgent public importance is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President and the Executive. The thieves of yesterday have gathered.

Your Honour the Vice-President, the thieves of yesterday have gathered. These thieves –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, we do not know which thieves you are talking about. Can you please be more specific on the matter that you are raising?

Mr Jamba: I will explain, Madam Speaker. I just want to emphasise why I said the word ‘thief’ four times. These thieves have gathered and they are getting so courageous, such that they are seated here in this House and making it very difficult for this Government –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, we do not have thieves in this House.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members on my left!

The Whip on my left, can we have order.

Hon. Members, as you bring these matters to the attention of the Executive, use Parliamentary words. If you remember very well, I have always guided that in this House, we only have hon. Members of Parliament. Now, if you start talking about thieves being in this House, what will the public think of this House? You are all hon. Members and the public out there knows that in this Parliament, there are hon. Members of Parliament.

So, hon. Member on the Floor, withdraw the word ‘thief’ and be more focused on the matter that you are trying to raise.

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘thief’ and replace it with ‘masholi.’

Interruptions

Mr Jamba: Yes! Plunderers, plunderers!

I withdraw the word ‘thief’ and replace it with ‘plunderers’.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mundubile: Why are we allowing that disorder?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Leader of the Opposition –

Mr Mundubile: No! Why are we allowing that disorder?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The hon. Member for Mwembezhi will not continue. I had guided that he should withdraw the word ‘thief’.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let us make progress.

Yesterday, a matter was raised and I will start with that matter because its ruling was omitted. The hon. Member for Mpika raised a matter regarding water problems in a community called Chikwanda in his constituency.

Hon. Member for Mpika, the matter is not admissible because it is not a nationwide matter. I urge you to discuss this matter with the hon. Minister for Water Development and Sanitation. Since water is very important, you can raise an urgent question.

I move on to the matter that was raised by the hon. Member for Pambashe. He talked about the Auditor-General’s report. He brought out many issues, like that of staff who drew allowances and were arrested. Then he went on to talk about an hon. Member of Parliament who is seated here.

Hon. Members, according to our Standing Orders, we are not allowed to discuss ourselves. We cannot discuss ourselves. It is better that the hon. Member for Pambashe finds another avenue of dealing with this matter. Discussing ourselves whilst seated here is not allowed and let us try to avoid that.

I move on to the hon. Member for Mpika, who raised the matter about the abductors of the mobile money agents. He said there is news today that some of the adductors have escaped from prison and that the nation is worried about the safety of Zambians. This matter seems to be urgent. I direct the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to issue a ministerial statement next week on Thursday.

Hon. Members, the matter that followed was raised by the hon. Member for Petauke Central, who talked about the low wages by some of the people in his constituency get. Again, on this one, I will advise you to find another avenue so that you bring facts to the House as you raise that question. As the moment, we do know which bakery that is and then we do not even know how many people are affected. It is important that you find another avenue of bringing the matter to the House.

_______

THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, preventing an unjust and dishonest Government is a unique challenge because constitutional office-holders, Senior Government Officials, and political party members, who are collectively known as, politically exposed persons (PEPs), are uniquely able to manage constitutional controls and safeguards, like the Auditor-General’s office.

Madam Speaker, in the recent past, there has been some growing panic in the Government over the much awaited Auditor-General’s office. There has been a number of changes, arrests and transfers of Government officials.

Mr Kampyongo: The Auditor-General’s report!

Mr Mundubile: The Auditor General’s report, yes. Thank you for that correction. My question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: With all the happenings around the Auditor-General’s office, do we expect to see a credible report that can be relied upon even by this honourable House?

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mporokoso and Leader of the Opposition in the House for that question. The hon. Member mentioned that there is growing panic in the Government. No, there is no panic. We are moving according to our agenda and manifesto. Therefore, when anything happens that an hon. Member may suspect is being done, out of his suspicion, it does not mean it is true. That is not true. So, I can assure the hon. Member that there will be a credible audit despite what is happening now.

Madam Speaker, we have gone through this before. Last time, I did say that nobody owns an office. If what is happening is that there should not be another Vice-President if I collapsed today, then we are in trouble. There should be someone to replace me immediately. That is the way it is. Therefore, it is not correct for one to say that the transferring or arresting of people in the Auditor-General’s office will have an impact on the Audit Report that will be made available to this House and the nation. We are painting a picture like some people are offices. No! I believe that there should be a credible Audit Report produced by those who are working now. Let us be sincere. We are in a situation and the report must be brought to this House. It is up to the people who are working on that audit to be sincere and produce that which is expected of them.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I know that Her Honour the Vice-President has not stopped listening to good reasoning. My little experience on my journey to leadership tells me that the hallmark of great leadership is being able to go back to your decisions if the people you lead question them.

Madam Speaker, there is raging debate by the people that this Government leads. The National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) financed roads from Ndola to Kitwe and from Kitwe to Chingola. As we speak, NAPSA is getting returns from those investments. Madam Speaker, a foreign contractor was engaged to work on the Kitwe/Chingola Road but was never paid with interest.

Madam Speaker, the people are saying that they do not object the decision of the Government to undertake the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway project. What they are saying is that they do not mind even if the Government single-sourced from a foreign entity or group of entities.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Nkana, can you summarise your question because it is turning into a debate.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, let me now ask the question.

Madam Speaker, the people do not mind the Government single-sourcing especially if there is so much interest in the special purpose vehicle (SPV). All the people are asking is whether it is not prudent for the Government to change course on the model it has used to work on the Lusaka/Ndola Road by putting resources together from NAPSA and the Workers’ Compensation Fund Control Board. These two companies have sufficient resources, as we speak, to finance that project. If the Government engages a foreign contractor, the Government will not give that contractor strategic national assets in the name of toll gates for it to collect money for twenty-three years. Instead, NAPSA and the Workers’ Compensation Fund Control Board will be collecting revenue for twenty-three years. Is it not prudent for the Government to backtrack on this very wrong decision due to the outcry from the public that it engages a foreign company to work on that road and then engage NAPSA to get investment from that road through toll gates?

Madam Speaker, I ask this –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Nkana, the question is clear.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, this is the last part.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, you have asked your question. Let us allow Her Honour Vice-President to respond. You may resume your seat, hon. Member.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Nkana for that question. I will say this before I respond to the hon. Member. He said that if people question your decision, you should think back. That is true. That is what we are. We are a listening Government. However, we also listen to reason. We have the mandate to govern. The people have put trust in the Government to govern this time. We have not made –

Mr B. Mpundu: Question!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, what I am saying is very important because if we are going to get derailed by every reason, that will not be correct. The previous Government had an opportunity to do that work. It could have been done and today, we would not be talking about it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

The Vice-President: I think – Hon. Members, allow me to speak.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: I am answering the question.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, can we please, listen in silence. You have asked the question. Give her space to respond.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am definitely answering the question and there is nothing impossible about it.

Madam Speaker, I am saying this because a ministerial statement was issued on the Floor of this House and people participated in it. So, are we going to remain in one place like a record stuck in a groove? No! Honestly, if we were to follow the law of tedious repetition, we would probably say that we cannot go on like this. However, I will try to answer again.

Madam Speaker, we have made a decision on this model. So, for the people to say that the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) has all the resources to fund this project, it is failure to understand what this concession is all about. This concession is not going to be fully-funded by NAPSA. Maybe, we need to come out with all the figures.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: NAPSA is only funding a fraction and it gets equity in this concession.

Hon. Government Members: They do not understand the word, “equity”!

The Vice-President: Hon. Members and the people out there, last time, I think I said that these are some of the things that should unite us. It is good for us. It is good for NAPSA to finance the project because at the end of the day, it will use our Zambian money. I wish NAPSA had the capacity to finance the entire project so that everything is kept here in our country. So, for hon. Members to say that this is bad, that is their thinking. The opportunity was there. So, they should allow this project to go on for the good of the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I am aware that Her Honour the Vice-President gave us a statement on floods but, I am compelled to ask this question on behalf of the people of Mandevu and Lusaka because the things that she said in her statement have not been done, especially in Mandevu. On 9^th February, 2023, we had unprecedented floods, which resulted in homes being submerged. As a result, many properties were damaged and bridges in Ng’ombe and Kabanana were washed away. A technical team carried out an evaluation and some of the bills came to over K5 million, which cannot be funded using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam Speaker, in the past, we saw areas that were affected by floods and the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) evacuated the people and gave them tents and foodstuffs, just as she submitted. However, in Lusaka, we have not seen her office coming to assist the people to repair the bridges. We have not seen her office coming to mitigate the sufferings of the people by donating foodstuffs to those whose fields were destroyed by the floods. When are we going to see the DMMU coming to assist the people of Lusaka, particularly, Mandevu? A disaster is what it is. Is Her Honour the Vice-President scared of carrying out an emergency procurement –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member.

Can we have one question? I thought I got your question. You asked Her Honour the Vice-President when her office will come and assist the people of Lusaka, particularly, Mandevu.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, the people of Mandevu are concerned because nothing has been done. The DMMU is supposed to respond to calamities.

Hon. Opposition Members: CDF!

Mr Shakafuswa: The CDF emergency fund is only K700.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you have now started debating with your colleagues.

Mr Shakafuswa: When are we going to see the DMMU come on the ground to assist the people of Lusaka, in particular, the people of Mandevu?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mandevu for that concern. What I had said in the statement is what I expected to happen. If the hon. Member is truly concerned, did he even have to wait? Within Lusaka, there are areas we took tents to. There has been no rain in the past two days. So, if his area is flooded, surely, would he sit there without saying?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, this Government is responding to the effects of floods. The hon. Member should not even say that the K5 million is too big. Please, it is not him to decide that we cannot construct a very important crossing point because of a K5 million. This Government is ready to spend to save the people’s lives. I, therefore, invite the hon. Member to come to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU). We have foodstuffs which we distribute. So, if there are people in the hon. Member’s constituency who really do not have food, he should, please, come to the DMMU. We have food readily available to help our people. That is who we are. So, the hon. Members should not come and make a political statement here.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: If he cares for his people, he should come and we will help our people.

Madam Speaker, in fact, last time, I mentioned that for those who are in flooded areas, where it is difficult to pump out the water, we have agreed on payouts so that they can find alternative accommodation at the cost of the Government. There are areas where water is actually coming from the ground and it is very difficult to keep such places dry even if we pumped the water out. We are working. Hon. Member, the DMMU is your office. It is the people’s office. So, you are free to come.

Hon. Government Members: He has heard!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, on this matter, I can talk a little longer.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, the people of Luapula want to know what is happening to sugilite. Her Honour the Vice-President saw the video in which the people of Chembe were demonstrating because four trucks loaded with sugilite were seen leaving the mine site but only one truck was impounded. The people are wondering where the other three trucks are.

Madam Speaker, the police in the Central Province did confirm that three officials of the United Party for National Development (UPND) went to claim ownership of the sugilite. However, after establishing the truth that the sugilite came from Muombe Mine, His Excellency the President did the right thing to dismiss those who were involved. What happened to the four UPND officials including the Provincial Youth Chairman, who went to block the cause for justice by lying that the sugilite was mined from their mine? They tried to prevent the cause for justice by giving false information to a public officer. What is the Government doing to the four officials who went to police to try and prevent the cause for justice? What happened to the three trucks? The chiefs, including Senior Chief Mwata Kazembe are concerned and are asking where the three sugilite-laden trucks have gone.

The Vice-President: Yah! Sugilite!

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is from Luapula and he is asking about sugilite.

Madam Speaker, to start with, a comprehensive statement was issued on this matter. Honestly, I am not aware of the many things that the hon. Member has said. That is speculation. If–

Interruptions

The Vice-President: That is true!

If the investigative wings are working on this matter, we need to know. I do not receive reports of investigations step by step. So, if the hon. Member is talking about four trucks, I am sure there will be witnesses to testify that there were four trucks and they saw them.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: He is a witness!

The Vice-President: Yes, the hon. Member may just offer himself as a witness.

Laughter

The Vice-President: So, this issue is extremely speculative. People are being called names and are said to be part of this and that. That is speculation. We are a country. Therefore, let us allow investigations to be carried out so that we see the true status of this matter rather than trying to be the courts and investigators ourselves. I am not aware of those four trucks. What I know is what every other Zambian knows. Anything beyond that would be up to you, the investigator...

Laughter

The Vice-President: ... to help the Government investigators with what you know. That is how we should move. Honestly, I do not know about the four trucks. I only know about one truck which was impounded.

Mr Mutale interjected.

The Vice President: My staff has been disciplined.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Please, do not engage Her Honour the Vice-President while seated.

Mr Mutale: She is my sister!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, in the Auditor-General’s Report, day in day out, the Ministry of Agriculture is always mentioned in regard to fertiliser procurement. As I speak, even in the outstanding issues, there are matters on the procurement of fertiliser.

Madam Speaker, Section 46(1) of the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) Act, No. 8 of 2020, stipulates what qualifies for direct bidding; availability from a single-source due to emergency and need for compatibility. The coming in of the United Capital Fertiliser Ltd which is getting, I think, a 70 000 metric tonnes of D-Compound supply contract, is not supported under direct bidding. However, this same Act should bring in value for money, private sector participation –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa.

You are debating. Find a way of summarising your question, please.

Mr Mwambazi: Thank you for your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu: Ta chitile summary ku sukulu uyu!

Laughter

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Speaker, we need to ensure that there is private sector participation in some of these tenders. What method are we using to procure fertiliser from the United Capital Fertiliser Ltd?

Mr B. Mpundu: Naupya iwe! Nechisungu nauwishiba!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Do not debate while seated.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that important question. It gives an opportunity for us to continuously talk about the issue of the procurement of fertiliser during this time of Government.

Madam Speaker, if we all listened carefully, the hon. Member said that the Ministry of Agriculture is always queried. So, hon. Members should not start pointing fingers because we are working towards stopping the ministry from being queried always. Of course, since we are used to living in suspicion, we always question why something is happening.

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Member talked about the Act and how it provides for direct or single-sourcing, he mentioned two things that I thought were kind of put together; the issue of emergency and compatibility. For us, we have to go back to our manifesto. We have a manifesto that fits in the Act. To start with, when we have one local supplier who is able, we must encourage that supplier. This is positive discrimination.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: This is what it is. You can supply under this condition.

Hon. PF Member interjected.

The Vice-President: Yes, it is lawful. Single-sourcing is within the law. So, let us not argue about things that are good for us, hon. Colleagues. Sometimes, you even over expose yourselves. This single-sourcing is within the law. So, the hon. Member gave conditions under which the law applies. This is what I am saying. When there is one supplier who is producing that commodity, why should we start looking for others?

Hon. PF Member interjected.

The Vice-President: Oh, yah!

This is a single supplier. In our manifesto, we said we would promote local industries.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear! Correct!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Members!

Do not interject Her Honour the Vice-President.

The Vice-President: Hon. Colleagues, I think we must look at this positively. We have the provision in the law and are working within the law. It is also good for Zambia because we need to grow the local industry. We need to allow our own manufacturers to grow.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, we should no longer continue to be a trading nation. We should start producing our own products. The United Capital Fertiliser Ltd has proved to be good. I know someone may say, “What?” Last year, the company started production in July. When it was given the amount of supply, it managed to deliver and distribute to the areas it was allocated.

Madam Speaker, this issue is important for job creation.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, this was our campaign. Every time we import, hon. Colleague, lawyer Lukashya, we are actually exporting jobs. Does the hon. Member not want his people in Lukashya to get jobs?

Laughter

The Vice-President: We want them to get jobs. If we continue importing fertiliser, we must know that will be expensive. We should remember the three criteria we mentioned because they are important. Are they meeting the given criteria? We said that we need the right price. This is helping us to give fertiliser at a price, at least, lower than we would get if we bought it from somewhere else. When quality and timely delivery are met, then we will know that that is the preferred supplier, and we will continue. When you create a company, we will be affirmative to you. If Hon. Chilangwa has a company, …

Mr Chilangwa rose.

The Vice-President: … we will buy from him, if he does well and is able to deliver. This is who we are. We do not do things politically. We do things to help the Zambians, come on.

Laughter

Hon UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, I thank you. Good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President. I noted that the consortium to prepare the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) for the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriage Way project was awarded to three companies namely, AVIC International, China Sevens Group, and China Jiangxi Corporation for International Economic and Technical Co-operation (CJIC). These three companies are all wholly-owned by the Chinese Government. They are parastatals.

Eng. Milupi indicated ascent.

Mr Mutale: I note the hon. Minister there is nodding. I thank him very much.

Madam Speaker, we are saying that this is a private project that must be undertaken by a private company. Can Her Honour the Vice-President kindly confirm that the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) will give money to the Chinese Government to construct a road in Zambia through this tender?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, thank you.

Interruptions

Madam Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, honestly, sometimes, one can run out of answers. AVIC International has been here for – I think people already know the answers. Are these questions just for the sake of talking or to mislead the people of Zambia? No money is going to China.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: The money is going to be used and paid back here. So, what are we talking about? No! Let me assure the hon. Member that the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) is not sending any money to China. The money will remain here.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, last week or so, it was reported that the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) froze about forty-one bank accounts worth millions of the United States Dollars and Zambian Kwacha. In the same week, the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) seized about seventy–two very expensive motor vehicles and among them, Land Cruisers and Prados.

Madam Speaker, when is the Government going to issue a list of those whose accounts were frozen? I am sure this question will address Hon. Jamba’s concern since he was curtailed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Moomba mentioned the forty-one bank accounts with millions of the United States Dollar and Zambian Kwacha, and also, the issue of the seventy-two motor vehicles that were seized. He wanted to know when the Government is going to release the names of the owners of those bank accounts and the motor vehicles.

Madam Speaker, the issuance of the names will be done at an appropriate time because this matter is still under investigation. If we release the names now, people may just –

Hon. Government Member: They will run away!

The Vice-President: It is not about running away.

Laughter

The Vice-President: After all, they already know themselves. They may be running right now because they know their accounts are frozen. Our role is to ensure that full investigations are –

Mr Mushanga interjected.

The Vice-President: Hon. Member of Parliament for Bwacha.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, in as much as we are ensuring that these vices are curbed completely, we should also protect those who are under investigations and may probably, be proved innocent. However, if one’s name is already published, it is may not be easy to clean it up. When the investigative wings are sure of who is involved, we will see what will happen. We will see whether or not these people will be arrested. We will also see whether or not the motor vehicles will be given back to some people. That is where we are. Currently, we cannot release the names of those people. It is too early to do that.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President earlier mentioned the fact that the Government has the mandate to govern this country. Nobody is fighting or arguing because during the last election, President Hakainde Hichilema got 2.8 million votes.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa: Do they know that those 2.8 million people are not there anymore? They have disappeared and the Government is alone.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Kawambwa, let us not debate.

Interruptions

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, I just want to be in agreement with Her Hon. the Vice-President, being a good person that I am.

Interruptions

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, the reasons as to why the 2.8 million people are no longer there are very simple. It is because of issues of the forty–eight houses, sugilite, fertiliser, and now the Lusaka/Ndola Road. The Lusaka/Ndola Road project is a raging debate right now.

Madam Speaker, why is Her Honour the Vice-President feeling so comfortable defending things which are not defendable? The Lusaka/Ndola Road is a good project but the financing model is questionable by most Zambians. Is this what corruption does to people, that they can even start defending things that are not defendable?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member.

What is your question?

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, Zambians are not with the Government on the financing model. Is the Government aware that it is alone in undertaking this project especially, where the financing model is concerned?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I do not know what barometer the hon. Member is using to know that the 2.8 million people are not with the Government.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: They are with us. Let me –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we allow Her Honour the Vice-President to respond.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am saying that the 2.8 million plus people are still there. What we are talking about is mostly to do with the economy. The Zambians understand that when something has been destroyed, it takes a lot of time to be rebuilt.

Madam Speaker, we are not paving a road. We are not imagining a road. This is a road which was there. Our colleagues wanted to work on that road at a cost of US$1.25 billion. Now, the Government is saying that it will spend US$577 million and not billion to work on that road. Surely, let us work together and support the good things. I have explained the issue of fertiliser. Unfortunately, I do not know what the hon. Member means by bringing the issue of the forty-eight houses. That issue came up during the Patriotic Front (PF) time and they failed to resolve it. Why did the PF not arrest those people? Why should the hon. Member talk about an old case that was in their time? Hon. Colleagues, this is not the way to go.

Madam Speaker, I want to tell the hon. Member that we do not defend things for the sake of defending.

Hon. Opposition Member: And you are alone!

The Vice-President: And I am alone? Eeeee!

Laughter

The Vice-President: Am I alone?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am with many others who are the representatives of the people. People are seeing the genuineness of this Government.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Yes, Madam Speaker. We never promised that all will be rosy. We actually did indicate that things would be rough. When the Zambians where voting, they knew that things would be rough. They knew it would be rough to undo what was wrongly done. Hon. Colleagues, looking at the rate at which we were going, are these people (left side) not wondering how we have managed to implement the free education policy and how we have reduced the road project from US$1.25 billion to US$577 million?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Is my son, Hon. Kampyongo, not wondering how we were able to employ – No, it is Hon. Chilufya.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Is he not surprised that we have employed over 12,000 health workers today?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Is the hon. Leader of the Opposition not saying that we employed so many teachers through magic?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, are they not surprised that we are working on road works that had stalled? Are they not surprised that we can give K28 million to every constituency? Are they not surprised that we have reinstated meal allowances? Are they not surprised –

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Hon. Member for Kawambwa, you have raised a very serious matter by saying that the 2.8 million Zambians are no longer there. This was your question and that is why I had to respond that way. If you want to be political, I can be political too.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: You can ask in whichever manner, and we will respond in the correct manner. We will deal with the issue of the forty-eight houses since they failed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, last week, I posed a question to Her Honour the Vice-President, regarding the cancellation of the fertiliser procurement by His Excellency the President. This week, the ministry indicated that it has single-sourced, which is a big concern as the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) stated. In response to my question last week, Her Honour the Vice-President said that the cancellation was to ensure that they implement what they call “positive segregation”, so that citizens participate in activities. I know Her Honour the Vice-President officially opened the United Capital Fertiliser Company Limited. The Permanent Secretary (PS) in the Ministry of Agriculture expressed reservations and said that they are yet to do due diligence on this company to determine whether it is manufacturing or it also imports fertiliser. That was said by the PS and –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your question, hon. Member?

Mr Kampyongo: The PS cautioned that if this company is found that it is not only producing, but also importing fertiliser, its contract will be cancelled. Since they are talking about positive segregation, who are behind United Capital Fertiliser Company Ltd? Are they Zambian citizens? We would like to know. What justification was there to use single-sourcing, which is against the law as we were told by the chairperson of PAC?

The Vice- President: Madam Speaker, there is no cancellation of any contract, and I think I said this last time. We are just realigning the system. The advertisements are still running except that they are in two parts. We have the international part that allows every bidder to participate. We also have the local part that allows people to bid directly. That is positive segregation. The hon. Member wanted to know who the owners of the company are. That is a Zambian registered company. According to the law, you cannot go to the owners of the company unless you are lifting the veil, counsel (looking at hon. Mundubile).There is no criminality. Eee, now you know, Mundubile that I am aware of that part.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, they have committed no offence for them to be brought into this debate. We are now dealing with the company that is manufacturing fertiliser. The hon. Member alleged that my Permanent Secretary (PS) said that he did not know whether the company is importing or manufacturing fertiliser. I agree with the PS because what we know is that it is a manufacturing company. In case it is found that it is also importing, you know what we can do. What we know is that it is a manufacturing company.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is right to say that I went to launch the company. We have access to that company and we see the machinery and the manufacturing that is going on. I think all the hon. Members should feel free to go there. If truly that company is importing, then, that will be deception. For now, we do not know anything. If people have evidence of that company importing, they should bring it forward. That is all we need to work together. Believe you me, us, who sit on the right side of Madam Speaker, know that the company is manufacturing. If you know something else, please bring it to our attention so that we can work together.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, we have not forgotten and the people are still asking serious questions. Madam Speaker, issues about gassing, fire tenders, fraudulent contracts, people getting rich suddenly, and the Prosecutor who was shot at, have not been addressed. We have not received answers up to now.

Madam Speaker, let me say something. If you are trying to kill a snake and you hit the wrong side, it will continue meandering. It seems to me –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Jamba: Mwachilachita politick apa imwe.

Madam Speaker, a sinner can run away from his shadow. Now, we have seen that –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, what is your question?

Mr Jamba: I am coming.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Madam Speaker, the people who participated in these atrocities, for your own information, are gathered here (pointing at the hon. Opposition Members). They are even speaking so loudly without any remorse. The people out there would like to know what the Government is doing because we have let them sit here –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Mundubile: You cannot be pointing at us like that, iwe! You cannot. Who do you think you are, iwe? Sit down iwe. Ala, you think you are going to have it easy here.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

When we give you an opportunity to ask a question, please, use that opportunity well. There was no need for you to describe all the situations. We are interested in hearing your question, hon. Member for Mwembezhi.

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, what is Her Honour the Vice-President doing? Is the Government going to arrest these people? Why is the Government not arresting them? They have gathered –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

I am not sure whether Her Honour the Vice-President understood the question. Your Honour the Vice-President, do you have an answer to that question?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We still have sixteen seconds.

The Vice -President: I do not think I fully understood it. Maybe, he can repeat the question.

Laughter

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, let me be slow so that she gets the question.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I said that there are people who were involved in atrocities in this country and some of them got land at Kawena Protected Forest Area, No. 42 –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

That is the problem with questions that are loaded. Now, it is time up.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, in future, let us try to summarise our questions because we only have forty-five minutes allocated to The Vice-President’s Question Time.

Mr Jamba: Those people –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

Mr Jamba: Your Honour the Vice President –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member.

Can we make progress.

________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF THE ISOKA/MBESUMA/KASAMA ROAD

192. Ms Nakaponda (Isoka) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

why the construction of the Isoka/Mbesuma/Kasama road has stalled;
when the project will resume;
what the cost of the outstanding works on the project was, as of June, 2022; and
what the time frame for the completion of the project is.

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutale: Thank you very much Madam Speaker, our Standing Order 204 (2)(j) is very clear on how a member should demonstrate and treat him or herself in the house. I saw the Hon. Minister of Commerce raising his hand, demonstrating a symbol for the United Party for National Development (UPND).

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mutale: Cameras are there, Madam Speaker, we can still check that. Was he in order to raise that symbol in the house of the people of Zambia against our standing orders?

I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Members. Let us look at the cited standing order.

“a member shall not shout political party slogans or display political flags, emblems or any such articles in the House”.

For me to make a ruling, I think I will need time because what I saw on the right were people waving, but we will have to view the footage to see what really happened so that we can truly establish that the Honorable Minister of Commerce did, indeed, show some political sign. So, I reserve my ruling.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Thank you, Madam Speaker. The construction of the road section between Mbesuma and Kasama, which is 110 km, was upgraded to bituminous standard in 2014.

Madam Speaker, the construction of the road section between Isoka and Mbesuma, which is 60 km, has stalled due to budgetary constraints.

Madam speaker, the works on the section of the road between Isoka and Mbesuma will resume when the required funds have been mobilised.

Madam Speaker, the cost of the outstanding works on the Isoka/Mbesuma Road, as of June, 2022, will be known once the contractor has been engaged to undertake the works on the road section.

Madam Speaker, the estimated time frame for the completion of the works on the project will be known once the design for the required works has been finalised.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon Members, today being the last day for the backbenchers to contribute to debate on the Motion of Thanks. Can we please use this time wisely so that those who have not debated will be given time to do because next week is for the Executive to respond to the debates by the backbenchers.

Hon. Member for Chinsali, is it a burning point of order?

Mr Mukosa: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukosa: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to rise on a point of order. I rise on this point of order pursuant to Standing Order number 65 1(b), which is about the content of speech and it says that:

“(1) A member who is debating shall –

(b) ensure that the information that he or she provides to the house is factual and verifiable"

Madam Speaker, during the Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, when she was responding to the question that was raised by Hon. Chilangwa, Her Honour the Vice-President indicated that the Government had reduced the cost of the Ndola/Lusaka Dual Carriageway from US$1.2 billion to more than US$500 million. I do understand that it will cost the contractor more than US$500 million but that is not the Government’s cost. The Government’s cost to the project will be the total value collected by the contractor from the toll gates and that will accrue to the contractor for a period of twenty two years or the period over which they will collecting the toll gates fees. Which means that, as it is, we do not know the cost to the government for the project. Was the Vice-President, therefore, in order to provide inaccurate information to the House and to the general citizenry?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, your point of order was almost like a debate. It is supposed to be brief and precise. However, the Vice-President’s Question Time is finished and so, we cannot go back to the matters that were raised by Her Honour the Vice-President. I advise you to find another avenue to raise your complaint or question. Let us make progress.

I do not know whether the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development had finished responding to the question.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I had completed the response. I am awaiting the follow-up questions.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, may I know whether when funds become available, we shall proceed with the same contractor or the ministry will consider re-advertising for a new one.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Namwala for the question. In fact, let me make more clarifications. The earlier contract lapsed in November, 2021. The new contract is being procured following the allocation of funds. So, that is the answer. The contract has lapsed and there will be a new process for procuring a new contract.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nakaponda (Isoka): Madam Speaker, does the ministry have any immediate plans to have the road completed under the given circumstances? In Bemba, there is a proverb which says:apakomailanondo, ninshi paliubulema.

Hon. Members: Meaning.

Ms Nakaponda:Madam Speaker, that means when people talk about the same thing over and over again, it means that there is a unique challenge. Apakomailanondo, ninshi paliubulema, Ba Nkombo, hon. Minister.

Laughter

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, last term, I went to Kasama through using the same road. When I reached the pontoon, I had to come out of my vehicle and crossed the river on foot. I was almost caught by a crocodile.

Hon. Members: Ah!

Laughter

Ms Nakaponda: Could the hon. Minister kindly work on this road, please.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Could the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development work on the road before our hon. Member is eaten by crocodiles and we lose her.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, when I look at her, I am sure she is capable of swimming across the Chambeshi River if there are crocodiles.

Laughter

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, we remind ourselves that this contract commenced in 2018, and due to cost escalations, its cost has gone up. We are talking about the 60 km which the hon. Member is interested in. The contract for the construction of the Mbesuma Bridge along the Kasama/Isoka Road, where she was almost killed by a crocodile in Malole Parliamentary Constituency was awarded to Messrs China Railways Seventh Group Limited at a contract sum of K84 million. The works on the projects had stalled since January, 2020 during their time with overall physical progress at 28 per cent. The woks on the project will resume following the allocation of funds in the 2023 Road Sector Annual Work Plan.

Madam, the answer is that already, there is an allocation of funds during the 2023 Road Work Plan. This is why I said to the hon. Member for Namwala that the original contract has lapsed and the new contract will be worked out. So, far, K27.7 million has been certified for works undertaken on the project out of which K10.6 million has been paid to the contractor. So, I do not know what this hard-working Government can say on this particular subject because we have talked about the Mbesuma subject because the hon. Member for Malole raised it. So, when we say funds have been allocated in the 2023 Budget, I think that should be a clear indication that whether nondo has done anything or said something …

Laughter

Eng. Milupi:… the work is being done.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to seek a clarification from the hon. Minister.

Madam, the 60km which is being referred to here from Mbesuma to Kafwimbi in Isoka is actually in Chinsali. I want the hon. Minister to be very clear because I have heard him talk about the Mbesuma Bridge and the road. As far as I know, I served as Member of Parliament for Chinsali from 2016 to 2021, as you may know. There has been no contractor to work on this road. So, when hon. Minister says that work has stalled, how has work stalled when there has been no contractor? The last contract did not take off around 2014 because the Attorney-General did not sign the contract. So, what does he mean and when he says that the Government has allocated K27.7 million for this year? Does he mean the Government will find a new contractor to construct the road? I would like to understand so that it can help us to settle some of the concerns.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chinsali for the follow-up question.

Madam,in the second part of his question, the hon. Member sought to know whether the Government is going to find a new contractor. I think I answered that when I was answering the question by the hon. Member for Namwala. Whether there was a contract or not, let me repeat, what I said earlier on. The contract for the construction of the Mbesuma Bridge along the Kasama/Isoka Road in Malole Parliamentary Constituency was awarded to China Railways Seventh Group Company Limited and I mentioned the amount of money which this contract was awarded at, but it lapsed. So, there was a contract. Otherwise, it would not have lapsed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I would like to apologise. The hon. Member for Chinsali has come to thank me for answering the question very well.

Laughter

REHABILITATION OF THE MPIKA/KASAMA ROAD

193. Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

(a) when the rehabilitation of the Mpika/ Kasama Road will be completed; and

(b) what has caused the delay in completing the project.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I inform the House that the rehabilitation of the Mpika/Kasama Road will be completed as soon as funds are mad available. The delay in completing the project has been due to funding constraints.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, the road we are talking about; the Mpika/Kasama Road provides as a get way to Mpulungu Habour, which is supposed to be used for shipment of grain and whatever agricultural produce to the Great Lakes region.

Madam Speaker, the people of Kanchibiya have lost lives on this particular road. This road is a typical case of 1,000 ways to die. Our interest is to find out whether the works for the rehabilitation of this particular road have been catered for under the 2023 Budget.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the contract for the periodic maintenance of the Mpika/Kasama Road was awarded in two lots. Lot 1 was from Mpika to Chambeshi Bridge, which is about 131 km. It was awarded to Dawiq Limited in joint venture with Keren Motors Limited in 2014 at a contract sum of K118.3 million.

Madam Speaker, Lot 2 was from the Chambeshi Bridge to Kasama, which is 86 km, and was awarded to China Geo Engineering Corporation in 2016 at a contract sum of K528.8 million. However, the contract for Lot 1 was terminated. Subsequently, the contract for Lot 2 was varied to include works under Lot 1 at a revised contract sum of K1.3 billion.

Madam Speaker, physical progress stands at 4 per cent. The periodic maintenance works on the project have since stalled due to cash challenges. The Road Development Agency (RDA) regional offices, both from Muchinga Province and the Northern Province, carry out holding maintenance under Force Accounts on the Mpika/Kasama Road. However, due to funding constraints, the works being undertaken by the RDA Regional Manager in Muchinga Province have stalled due to cash-flow challenges. Works on the said road will resume once funds are disbursed by the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA).

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member’s question was specifically on whether this road is under the 2023 Budget. The 2023 Budget was debated in this House and the answer as to what is in it or not is available in the 2023 Budget. Therefore, he can check in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, the Yellow Book is a voluminous document. I think the ordinary people in Kanchibiya who might be following this particular conversation have a right to know, from the Executive, whether or not there are resources allocated to this particular road, which is in a very bad state.

Madam Speaker, this road is not just for the people of Kanchibiya, but other road users. Anyone who is going up north using this particular road will agree that this road is a death-trap. Further, when you look at the works being undertaken, there is selective pothole patching by the Road Development Agency (RDA) at the provincial level. The sizes of potholes on this road are equivalent to some mini open pit mines, for the lack of a better term. The selective pothole patching is not working.

Madam Speaker, anyone who has been on this road in the recent past will attest to the fact that this road is in dire need of attention. So, the people of Kanchibiya and other road users repeat the question to understand whether or not resources have been allocated to this particular road under the 2023 Budget.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, as a matter of fact, I have been on this road several times. Yes, it is in a bad condition, but if you look at roads around that area, the Mpika to Chinsali and Mpika to Serenje roads, for example, are worse.

Madam Speaker, what has been allocated under the 2023 Budget is under Force Account, which, unfortunately, deals with patching, because of the limit in the amount of money that is available to carry out full rehabilitations. The concentration at the moment is on finding solutions to the Serenje, Mpika and Chinsali road, so that we can make that particular part motorable.

Madam Speaker, the Government is fully aware that the Mpika/Kasama/Mbala/Mpulungu Road requires work. These are some of the challenges that the New Dawn Government has in terms of what needs to be done in the road sector. These are the issues we found. However, we will not shy away from them. We shall address them, but they require resource mobilisation. The Government is working very hard to ensure that these resources are mobilised. When they are mobilised, this House will be informed, and we will carry out those works.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, we, indeed, agree with the hon. Minister who has acknowledged the state of those stretches. They are three of them. There is the Serenje/Mpika Road, Chinsali/Mpika Road as well as this same stretch which is under consideration, the Mpika/Kasama Road. They are all in bad shape.

Madam Speaker, we got relief when the hon. Minister responded that the construction of the stretch between Mpika and Chinsali, which was under consideration through some facility from the European Union (EU), was coming to fruition. If, indeed, that is the status, how could the hon. Minister ensure that the Force Account of the Northern Province is supported, if that EU project is coming through? Is it possible that the Northern Province Force Account can be reinforced so that this particular road can be patched up, especially in those dangerous stretches where there are very huge potholes, just as they are on the Serenje/Mpika Road?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member raises the issue of what is remaining of the funds from the European Union (EU) or African Development Bank (AfDB), which were being used on the Chinsali/Isoka/Nakonde Road. The international funders are very specific on where you utilise the funds. You have to get permission to utilise the funds. So, when we talk about the road from Mpika to Chinsali, discussions are underway to see if the funders would allow us to use some remnant funds from the other projects on that particular road.

Madam Speaker, even when they say use it on the road from Mpika to Chinsali, you cannot divert it to any other part without facing severe sanctions. The former hon. Minister is fully aware of how these things are done. The Kasama/Mpika Road has to have a different arrangement. In the meantime, what we are using is money under Force Account to patch where it is possible, but, ultimately, it requires complete rehabilitation. Therefore, we ask those on your left to really work in tandem with the Government when it is looking for funds to restructure the economy. It must be a collective effort.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF MINI-HOSPITALS IN MSANZALA

194. Mr E. Daka (Msanzala) asked the Minister of Health when the Government will commence construction of the following mini hospitals in Msanzala Parliamentary Constituency:

Nyamphande;
Misolo;
Ndambwe;
Chikuse;
Riverside;
Sonja;
Mwanika; and
Muzenje.

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba) (on behalf of the Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo)): Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to commence the construction of mini hospitals in the following areas in Msanzala Constituency –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours to 1100 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Ms Tambatamba: Mr Speaker, when Business was suspended, I was saying that the Government has no immediate plans to commence construction of the following mini-hospitals in Msanzala Constituency: Nyamphande, Misolo, Ndambwe, Chikuse, Riverside, Sonja, Mwanika, and Muzenje.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that the focus of the Government is to complete the ongoing construction works before embarking on the new projects.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Daka (Msanzala): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has mentioned that the Government will complete the mini-hospitals that are ongoing. Some of these mini-hospitals in question had their ground breaking ceremony done and people are waiting for super structures to be constructed. When is the Government finishing those that were commissioned already?

Ms Tambatamba: Mr Speaker, I want to bring it to the attention of this House that out of those mini-hospitals that the hon. Member asked about, three had ground breaking ceremonies indeed, but construction had not started.

Mr Speaker, this Government has embarked on a re-planning process. It is looking at the whole nation to ensure that we re-plan and that there is an equitable distribution of these facilities. In the previous case, there was an inequitable distribution of health facilities to be constructed after completing the ongoing works for those that were half or quarter way or already in implementation. By the principle of equity, the health facilities to be constructed going forward will be equitably distributed to avoid a situation like what happened in the past, where some districts ended up having more health facilities than other districts.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Daka: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that answer. However, the people of Msanzala would like to know when works for the three health facilities that the hon. Minister mentioned will commence. The hon. Minister said the other health facilities were taken away from us but when do we expect the three health facilities to be constructed?

Ms Tambatamba: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the follow-up question. As I indicated, the projects the previous Government did ground breaking for, didnot have a budget, and the period elapsed. The new Government has its own manifesto and itwill ensure that there is equitable distribution across all provinces and constituencies. The New Dawn Government said it will go back to the drawing board knowing that some health facilities were constructed. In some provinces, health facilities were oversubscribed.

Mr Speaker, allow me to read out the constructions that were undertaken. The Eastern Province benefitted sixteen mini-hospitals, out of the construction of 115 mini-hospitals countrywide, and fifteen out of the sixteen hospitals have been completed and are operational. The completed fifteen mini-hospitals are allocated in the districts as set out in the table below. The districts that have not benefited mini-hospitals are Vubwi, Chadiza, Nyimba and Chama. The districts that benefited are as follows:

District Site Status

Sinda Nsheketeni Operational

Petauke Mkwama Operational

Petauke Nkhwewakwewa Operational

Petauke Kaumbwe Operational

Lusangazi Chitindi/Mizenje Operational

Mambwe Msoro Operational

Katete Katete Boma Operational

Lundazi Chasefu/Kanyanga Operational

Lumezi Mwasemphangwe Operational

Lumezi Kazembe Operational

Sinda Ndaula Operational

Chipata Kasenga/Chipangali Operational

Chipata Luona/Kasenengwa Operational

Chipata Chipata Trades Operational

Chipata Chipembaulo/Kwenje Operational

Chipata Kagunda Operational

Mr Speaker, if we go by other provinces, the distributionwas highly skewed to some areas as opposed to others. This is what has prompted the New Dawn Government to go back to the drawing board because it does not want to leave anyone behind. Health is life and we must ensure that we cover all the gaps, most of them, yawning. We have seen that quite a bit was done on the other side, for instance, in the Eastern Province. These are the findings the ministry presented to the New Dawn Government and that is what compelled it to relook at the distribution and map the country to make sure that it attends to all its citizens in all the corners of the country. That will ensure that it gets closer to the objective of being equitable.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, sorry, I thought it was time to debate the President’s Speech. So, I will wait but if you allow me to proceed, I can. I wanted to contribute to the debate on the President’s Address. Let me wait.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Have you withdrawn the question?

Mr Michelo: Yes, I have withdrawn my question.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister read out districts that have not benefited from the health posts, and Chama and Vubwi are among those districts. Does the ministry have plans to ensure that the people in those districts also benefit from the health posts? If the answer is, yes, when will that be? Indeed, I know that the people in Chama, Chikwa, Chifunda, Chama North and Chibale Mulilo need mini-hospitals. Will the Government consider the people in those areas or since it was a project for the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, it will not do anything? May the hon. Minister comment on this.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: It is difficult for the hon. Minister to comment on that because this question is constituency based. However, she was elaborating how the distribution was not even. Unless the hon. Minister wants to shed more light, but this question is based on Msanzala Constituency to be precise.

Ms Tambatamba: Mr Speaker, the ministry will be planning.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Daka: Mr Speaker, my last question is: When do we expect that equitable distribution to be announced so that the people of Msanzala can know when the construction will be undertaken?

Ms Tambatamba: Mr Speaker, I spoke about the planning processes, the review and the redesigning. When the funds to cater for all the constituencies across the ten provinces are made available, then, we will select the areas or the prioritisations. So, as at now, the review process is being undertaken to make sure that we do not leave anyone behind, not even the people of Nyoka in Kasempa Constituency.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

______

MOTION

MOTION OF THANKS

(Debate resumed)

Mr Siachisumo (Lufwanyama): Mr Speaker, the New Dawn Government has made many strides to make sure that there is ‘One Zambia, One Nation’. The motto was coined by our first Republican President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, so that everyone feels that he/she is a Zambian.

Mr Speaker, on national unity, previously, there was a challenge, and I urge the New Dawn Government to make sure that all people are treated equally, not a situation whereby, when you went to look for employment, some people would look at your name, and that is not a national value. They would look at your name and where you come from. If you come from Dundumwezi, they would say no, this one is from Dundumwezi. So, I urge the hon. Ministers and Permanent Secretaries in the New Dawn Government to make sure that everyone is treated as a Zambian, as is the case now.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for awarding me an opportunity to debate.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me and the people of Dundumwezi an opportunity to look at the speech that was delivered on the Progress made in the Application of The National Values and Principles by His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema.

Mr Speaker, allow me to, firstly, indicate that the speech was well measured. Let me start with the appointments. Let me state that when you look at our Cabinet, it is spread across the country, meaning that the President is trying by all means to ensure that the country is united. Even when you look at the level of the Permanent Secretaries, the President has made sure that all the provinces are given an opportunity in the running of the affairs of the country.

Mr Speaker, let me also state that people should not start comparing the United Party for National Development (UPND) to other Governments that ruled for twenty-seven years, twenty years, and ten years. They should agree that UPND has only being in power for less than two years. However, when you look at what the UPND has so far achieved, you would think the hon. Cabinets Ministers went for, maybe, one year training for them to come and understand what is supposed to be done to the economy of the country.

Mr Speaker, if they are looking for perfection, I think they are in a wrong place. If they are looking for perfection, they should pray hard that they are forgiven and then go to heaven because that is where perfection is found. However, let me state that the Government is trying because where there are inadequacies, they have admitted. They have admitted facing challenges in some sectors and have assured us that they are trying so hard to ensure that as we go forward, the challenges we are facing are reduced.

Mr Speaker, I want to state that a few years ago, I was approached by a cameraman here at Parliament who said, “Hon. Sing’ombe, are you not joining the President in Dundumwezi to commission a road?”I said to him that he was a cameraman and asked him where the Government which was supposed to tell me that I join them was?

Mr Speaker, truly speaking, four choppers landed in Dundumwezi at a school called Sichimbwali Primary School, without me. After commissioning the electricity plant, the same four choppers flew to Dundumwezi/Itezhi-tezhi Road. What is shocking is that –Maybe our colleagues misled the Head of State then that they had done a better road. Let me tell you that under one year, the entire road has been washed away.

Mr Speaker, the road which was funded by the World Bank. We were told that it was a climatic resilience road. This morning, I wanted to ask the Vice-President what they meant by that. Was it true? For me, what I understood was that it was a road that was going to help us whether in the rainy or dry season. However, less than one year, the entire road has been swept away and even cut completely. Right now, the people of Itezhi-tezhi have to drive to Lusaka then to Choma to access the provincial administration. So, when they say that we are trying, I think it is clear that the Head of State this time is trying. We have seen hon. Members of Parliament accompanying the President which was not there previously.

Mr Speaker, if I tell you what transpired in Luanshya where I went to witness the arrest of President Hakainde Hichilema, it was so heart touching. The police at Luanshya Police Station went to a vehicle that was carrying women and started spraying them with tear gas. Some of them were my intake mates. I was shocked to see such a kind of a scenario, which is no longer happening now. They were telling us the other day that many women went marching on International Women’s Day. That is what the President is trying to do. We are not supposed to victimise anyone. Just here in Lusaka, a few years ago, a lady was stripped off naked during the International Women’s Day in the presence of the then Vice-President.

Hon. Government Members: A big shame!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, let me hear one hon. Member of Parliament complaining about women being victimised last year or this year. There was none. I think for me, the Cabinet is doing very fine. We are trying by all means because where there are inadequacies, we have agreed. What is so difficult when we tell them that they were not doing very well? They argue, but on the other breath they are asking for forgiveness. So, you can see that in the same breath they are contradicting themselves. So, please, can we learn to accept and where they need to assist the Government, they are very free to assist the Government because we are not being selective.

Mr Speaker, lastly, let me just ask the Cabinet to continue on this trajectory because so far everyone is happy with its work. I have just received information that the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development will be going to Dundumwezi to see how bad the Kalomo/Dundumwezi Road has become. Others made an insinuation that the road was upgraded. It was not upgraded. It is just 500 m from where the President went to commission that the road is cut. The President then was misled by some of our hon. Colleagues here that a good job was being done.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Feira, let me also make some remarks to the President’s Speech which was on the progress made in the application of our national values and principles. However, let me emphasise that the speech was based on the application and not on the thinking, the plans or the theories about the principles. Having said that, also allow me, to avoid my referring to the President, to clarify this at the moment. I heard the President, we have the rules here and we do not debate ourselves. The President referred to himself; that people needed to have a heart like his. I think that the people who prepared the President to come and deliver the speech did not do a good job.

Mr Munsanje: Question!

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, next time the President must talk about the principles and the application thereof, instead of talking about what heart he has or the hearts other people have. I thought that sentence must be removed from the records.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you should debate the speech, and not an individual. Desist from that. You now want to narrow it down to debating the President who is not here. Debate the speech. You have it in your hand. If you want, dissect it the way you want to, but with limitations that you do not narrow it down to the President. So, talk about the speech, not about the hearts. We are not interested to hear about the hearts. You talk about the Speech.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, thank you. I do not wish to debate the ruling. I am well guided, but what happened? The President referred to his heart. It is on record. So, if I do not clarify things from the beginning, it means, I will talk about them over and over. So, I wanted to clarify that.

Mr Speaker, having said that, there was also the issue of the death of Lawrence Banda, which matter is in court. I thought the handlers of the President should have advised that the judgment over that issue is coming up on 30^th March. So, I thought that those two issues should have been avoided. Particularly, Standing Orders No. 68, does not allow civil or criminal matters to be discussed here.

Mr Speaker, the President did talk about morality and ethics. I think that this country clearly being a Christian nation, we, as a people, value our morals and our ethics. Yes, it is important to talk about such things. However, before we go to that, there are certain things that happen that make people act immoral. I did not pay much attention, but right now, I am surprised that I am spending double on fuel when going to my constituency because there is a monthly increment on fuel. How can you talk about morals when life is becoming so hard?

Mr Speaker, others have already talked about the cost of electricity. It is also high. So, we cannot talk about these morals. Cooking oil, salt and sugar, and all essential commodity prices are now skyrocket. For me, we must first deal with these problems.

Mr Speaker, as I said, what the President should have talked about was more of what has been done. However, 75 per cent of the speech talking about what the Government hopes to do and what the Patriotic Front (PF) did and only one or two things about the number of youths that have been rehabilitated and so on. I think there was a huge gap. The President missed a golden opportunity to talk about the progress that has been made.

Mr Speaker, here, we have debated the issue of the so-called lesbians and gays, homosexuals in this country. People have now started demonstrating. Yes, we have been told that the police have arrested a few and charged them with giving false information to a police officer, yet the real charge has been left.

Sir, the United Party for National Development (UPND) has not been strong on the issue of gays and lesbians. That is why these people have gone to demonstrate. We need to issue a very strong statement as others have done. Previous Presidents have actually issued and clarified that it cannot happen here. They have even talked about the people who sponsor these gay movements. We all know them.

Mr Haimbe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo: Do not even talk about these because they are sponsored guns.

Mr Haimbe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Haimbe: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order in view of the content of debate by the hon. Members who has the Floor at the moment. The point of order is made pursuant to Standing Order No. 65(b), on relevance and the need to speak on factual matters when one is debating on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House and the nation in general, by firstly, alleging that His Excellency the President has not spoken clearly on matters of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer (LGBTQ) rights?

Secondly, is the hon. Member in order to suggest that there is a different charge that can be given under our Penal Code with respect to LGBTQ rights? If the hon. Member could visit the Penal Code, he would find that the offence that is stated in our statute book, refers to offences against the order of nature, not specifically about gays or homosexuals.He is a lawyer so, he should not be misleading the nation. Heterosexual people can equally be found wanting under that provision of the law. Therefore, the hon. Member is misleading the House by suggesting that the police officers failed to execute their duties.

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

I reserve my ruling on this matter. I will render it on a later date.

May the hon. Member continue and let us be factual as we debate.

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, I was basically emphasising a point. I know that all of us here are Christians and we do not like this and so on. However, this is my debate in this House. What I want the President, His Excellency Dr Hakainde Hichilema, to do is to come out clearly that we will not even accept conditions towards aid or anything from the United Nations (UN) or whoever is profiling these things because he is the head of this country. However, I expect the hon. Minister of Justice to bring a Bill here in Parliament to cure the gap that he has just mentioned, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Tembo: …so that we emulate our friends in Uganda and elsewhere, ...

Mr Kapyanga: Yes!

Mr E. Tembo: ...because we are a Christian Nation. We need to emphasise that. We need not to be lukewarm over these issues.

Mr Speaker, I do take very strong views over this. I represent the Church as well as many other Zambians that have presented these views unto me.

Mr Speaker, let me move on to talk about patriotism and national unity. I know others have already talked about it. However, let me address the issue of tax obligations by Zambians, which the President referred to. I want to emphasise that in this country, particularly after 2021 elections, the foreigners are having it free. They are free from paying tax. There are so many tax holidays. So, I want patriotism to start by making foreign companies such as the mines that we are bringing to pay more tax than Zambians. We have taxed Zambians enough. We want the foreigners to do so.

Mr Speaker, we learnt that the President was in the United States of America (USA) where a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was signed among Zambia, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and the USA, to have control of the supply chain of copper and cobalt, in view of the electric cars. However, the other day, the Hon. Minister of Mines refused this. So, when we talk about patriotism, let us focus on our resources. This issue of privatising everything should be discouraged. The Ndola/Lusaka Dual Carriageway issue is within what I am saying. Let us have control of our resources. Otherwise, poverty will not end.

Therefore, I am of the view that patriotism starts with the behaviour of the Government, in this case, the Executive, on how it deals with national resources and national unity. That will demonstrate serious patriotism. I do not think coming here and talking about owning the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has something to do with patriotism. We also need to talk about what I talked about yesterday; the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and Pan Africanism. Solutions are within the country and that to me is patriotism. Otherwise, we will hand over the county to neo-colonialists as well as imperialists.

Mr Speaker, the President did talk about an inclusive society. We need to be open about these things. We have seen the cleansing that is happening. Look at the police, the names of those who have been retired have been out. If you look at the commissioners and at ZESCO Limited, you will see what I am talking about. These are facts. We need to be inclusive, not only on the month but even in practice out there. Yes, the speech talked about all these great things, but what is happening there is completely different. I look forward to seeing –yes someone talked about the Cabinet, but let us look at the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) and the District Commissioners (DCs) and many other appointments–

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, I had one important issue.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The Patriotic front (PF) has given me a list of those to speak. However, we will keep alternating.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Patriotic Front (PF) has submitted a list of hon. Members to debate the Motion. We will keep alternating.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I am the bearer of a message from the people of Bweengwa on the President’s Speech on The Progress Made in the Application of National Values and Principles.

Mr Speaker, I know the President talked about a number of issues on the progress made in this country. However, I will just concentrate on a few.

Mr Speaker, on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), I would like to commend his Excellency, the Republican President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, for increasing the CDF allocation. I will give an example of Bweengwa Constituency. In the recent past, we had a shortfall of about ten class room blocks. Now, we have just put up ten classroom blocks, which is very good for our children.

Mr Speaker, the President also introduced free education, which is very important. It is a matter that should not be underplayed. It is a very important situation. When we were growing up, those of us who were in primary school during the Kaunda days, we experienced free education, and it was very good. However, from the time the United National Independent Party (UNIP) Government left power, we did not have free education again until the time the United Party for National Development (UPND) took over power.

Mr Speaker, right now, we can see a number of developmental activities going on in different constituencies. For example, in Bweengwa, if you calculate, there are about 10 x 3 classroom blocks that make thirty classrooms. Each class can accommodate about forty pupils. We are even able to buy desks. Our children have been sitting on the floor, which is not good. Even the pupils that were lacking motivation now have a lot of enthusiasm. This is very important, and I think we should praise our Republican President for what he has done.

Mr Speaker, the President also helped stop cadre violence in this country with just a single announcement. You can go to any constituency without being harmed or attacked. You can even go to Intercity Bus Terminus without being attacked by cadres. That is what the President has done.

Mr Speaker, the President also re-introduced student meal allowances that were abolished previously.

Hon. UPND Member: PF!

Mr Michelo: Mr Speaker, when we were still in the Opposition, we introduced a Motion to bring the student meal allowance back. However, it was shot down by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. The President of the New Dawn Government saw it fit to give our students their meal allowance, which is very good. The majority of the hon. Members here today, who went through the University of Zambia (UNZA), were given meal allowances. However, when the PF Government came into power, it abolished it. I am now glad that our students are happy because they are getting a meal allowance. Thanks to the man of solid character occupying State House.

Mr Speaker, the President also spoke about fighting past, present, and future corruption. We are now seeing movement in the fight against corruption on issues we were just talking about, and that makes me happy. A number of people who were involved in corrupt activities are being summoned by the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). This is very important. However, we do not just want to see the mere summoning of people who are involved in corrupt activities. We want to see them taken to places where they belong because corruption has ruined the country.

Mr Speaker, we are in this situation today because of the corruption that was practiced on a daily basis. It had become as easy as drinking water, not even tea because sometimes it is a bit hot. All the flood gates of corruption, in the recent, past were opened. This time around, we can see that if one involves oneself in corrupt activities, the very moment the President finds out, one is suspended or called up to the ACC, something which we missed in this country. In the last ten years, even if someone was involved in corrupt activities, people would say that we will wait until the court decides. Such were the issues we witnessed during the Patriotic Front (PF) regime. This time around, if one gets involved in corruption, he/she is on his/her own.

Mr Speaker, I request the hon. Ministers, especially the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, to keep on protecting this country. Currently, the people of Zambia are moving around freely. We know that there are some people who are trying, by all means, to bring down the Government. However, it will not happen because we are here to work for the people of Zambia. We are going to take development to all the ten provinces and to the people regardless of which tribe one comes from; Bemba, Tonga, Lozi, Nyanja or Ngoni. We are not going to behave the way the Patriotic Front (PF) did, segregating other regions. We are all Zambians and all the 19 million people are one. We will take development to all the parts of this country.

Mr Speaker, allow me to make this request, especially to the hon. Opposition Members. Please, let us try to work together. The country is ours. There is no need to start punching holes where they cannot manage to even create one. It is not good. Let us come and work together because we are here for this country presently, and for our children yet to come. The next generation must find a breathing economy.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity, and the hon. PF Members for listening today, and not giving me a standing ovation.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to also add my voice to the debate on the Motion of Thanks on the speech delivered by the President to this august House pursuant to the constitutional provision which requires him to update the nation on the Progress Made on The Application of National Values and Principles.

Mr Speaker, I acknowledge the debate presented by the previous speaker, my dear hon. Colleague, who has been reasonably thorough, and agree with him. We are here to work together. Collectively, we are an arm of the Government regardless of political persuasions. So, that call is welcome.

I also acknowledge my hon. Colleague from Dundumwezi who acknowledged that at one point the former President went to his constituency to launch road works that were being undertaken by the World Bank. I am sure he knows that when the World Bank contracts a project, it is responsible for all the technical issues that go with it. So, if there are issues of the roads being washed away, there are provisions in the contract that –

The bottom line, Mr Speaker, is that he was acknowledging that the President of the Republic of Zambia then, Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, went to Dundumwezi to launch a rural electrification project and road works. This means that he equally went to all the parts of the country to foster development.

Mr Speaker, the issue of patriotism is very key. Let me start by acknowledging the action the President took regarding the Sugilite saga that has been the centre of debate among Zambians.

When people are appointed to public offices, it is important that they exhibit high sense of patriotism because they are custodians of the people’s interests. They should be the number one protectors of the public assets and natural capital. So, they should not be in the first place, loot what does not belong to them. That level of greediness borders on moral degradation.

Mr Speaker, in as much as we acknowledge that the President took action on those public servants, the District Commissioners (DCs) and the Deputy Permanent Secretary (DPS), who were engaged in wrong activities, we must see thorough investigations undertaken. If people who are responsible for protecting property like the Zambia Police are caught up in wrong doings, with the state apparatus that are given to them to protect property, we must go beyond to see who was giving them those orders. We need to find out if those orders were lawful or unlawful. So, these are the things that we need to deal with thoroughly, if we have to ensure that patriotism is seen.

Mr Speaker, it is the same thing with corruption. That is why we, as an institution charged with the responsibility of oversight functions, that is why we are collectively called honourables. We should therefore, ensure that as we call others for equity, we do it with clean hands. We should not allow anyone of us to appear on the list of wrong doers, by taking that which does not belong to us. We are the ones who should hold people accountable, like those who collect money that is not for them, but for other appropriated budget lines. It is our job. So, if we are being found in these matters, there is need for us to act and action must be seen. There should not be sacred cows. Those officers who have been fired at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning are just human beings like us. So, if you are an hon. Member of Parliament and you are caught in wrong doing, it is important to own-up and show that you are wrong so that people can acknowledge that you made a mistake.

Mr Speaker, the President spoke about the end of cadreism. I have always said this and I am saying it now that we need collective efforts in eradicating this issue of violent cadreism. I want to thank my dear colleague and brother, the hon. Minister of Local Government Housing and Rural Development who, over the weekend, was able to respond to a save-our-souls (SOS) situation, which we had to deal with over the weekend.

Mr Speaker, the Council Chairperson in my constituency is just recovering from being clobbered for just carrying the Patriotic Front (PF) part regalia. Those who have seen the ugly videos circulating, that is an elected person representing the people of Shiwang’andu District. I thank the hon. Minister for being available at a late hour. However, we need to start sending a signal to the perpetrators of violence. I have dealt with that before and I know that no one has the monopoly of wisdom to find a solution to that, if we do not put our heads together.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security really needs to be supported, in order for him to do the right thing with regard to political violence. It should not have space either before or now.

Mr Speaker, regarding the issue of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered and Questioning (LGBTQ), I want to appeal to my hon. Colleagues in the Government that people will come with different messages on this matter. It will not be easy. I am speaking from experience.

Mr Speaker, those who have a condition of liking people of the same sex as them need help. For us as African nations, Presidents have spoken. If you listen to President Yoweri Kaguta Museveni, you will find that he is very clear and does not miss his words. President Uhuru Kenyatta, standing next to the former President of the United States of America, Barack Obama, clearly stated that we cannot accept that here in Africa. As Africans, we have our cultural beliefs and we have the way we live. Nothing should be imposed on us even when we are starving. We should not accept that. So, we must be clear.

Mr Speaker, I am sure we saw the headline that the United States of America (USA) condemned the arrest of the people who were insulting saying that, “These are our private parts and we will do what we can with them.” No! If one has to do that, they should hide. This is what we should tell those foreigners who think they can impose these things on us.

Mr Speaker, however, for the hon. Colleagues in the Government, it will not be easy because these are some of the issues those countries are attaching as conditions for the support that they are trying to give us. The Ministry of Home of Affairs and Internal Security must be supported and helped collectively because him, alone, can be overrun. That is why, the hon. Member of Parliament for Feira called on the hon. Minister of Justice to make sure that we tighten up the legal provisions and we are clear as a Christian nation so that we do not leave gaps which these people can use. It is very important that we preserve the generations to come after us. Yes, there are people who have that condition but it is not a norm and we cannot accept it just because we are starving or we need support from any corner of the world. Let us help those people who are unwell.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the President’s Speech, which was boarded on the Progress Made on the Application of National Values and Principles.

Mr Speaker, I note that when the President was giving his speech this time around, he was not only composed but looked like one who meant every word which he spoke. I picked a few things that I thought I could bring to this honourable House.

Mr Speaker, the President talked about having strong marriages in our nation so that we can have a strong community. The President also expressed disappointment at the fact that the rate of divorce had gone extremely high. I was also delighted to hear him speak on how human rights should be applied especially within the family set up. He was quite candid when he said that as family members, we need to know when to apply our human rights. This was quite clear to me because the President is actually helping us understand that most of these so called human rights, if not properly appropriated, will cause us a lot of trouble as a nation.

Mr Speaker, to one extent, I realised that Zambia as a nation, normally, we are very quick to embrace doctrines that most of the time we do not even understand. For example, when we talk about this so-called human rights, we have not had any foundation, ideology or doctrine like that, but we just grab whatever comes our way and we run with it. The effects are seen after we have applied ideologies that we do not fully understand. I thought that for once, we need to sober up as a nation and listen to this speech very carefully and also, ensure that we do not turn it into rhetoric but one that has to be enforced, especially by us, leaders in this honourable House.

Mr Speaker, if we are to see a change in our nation, it must start with us the leaders. If we treat a good speech that will give us a good direction as a nation as one of those speeches, we will have serious problems.

Mr Speaker, I want to talk more on the aspect of the high rate of divorce in our nation. I note that we are very quick to embrace certain doctrines that we have no understating of, and I will give an example of what we are now dealing with, the 50/50 parity or having women in decision-making positions. I am one person who fully supports that, and I have seen friends who have allowed their wives to soar high in society. Let me start from this House. I do not think there is any female hon. Member who came here because she was pushed to come to this honourable House. Female hon. Members came here because the communities where they come from saw that they were worth their salt and were the right candidates.

Mr Speaker, preaching this kind of doctrine, I am of the view that we need to prepare ourselves as a nation before we can rush to preach such a doctrine because anything that does not have a foundation cannot last and most of the time the effects are detrimental. As we are preaching the 50/50 parity, do we realise that certain men feel intimidated by the success of their wives and cannot succumb to the fact that their wives have higher positions in society, earn more money than them and so on and so forth? In such cases, what are we doing as a nation to ensure that such men who are intimidated by the women’s success are helped? Certain men will tell their wives that if they decide to go to a conference, they should not go back to the matrimonial home. This will not help us address the issue of divorce in our society.

Mr Speaker, what we need to do is get back to the drawing board and educate and tell the men in our society, especially those who are intimidated by the women’s success, that there is nothing wrong for a woman to hold a decision-making position. When I married my late wife, she was very junior but I believed in her, and I pushed her to the point where she became successful in her career. I am not talking about success here in Zambia. We were in the United Kingdom (UK), and she soared so high and headed three provinces, and it is not easy to be a boss forwhite people; trust me. They always believe that a black person should always be lower than them, but I had no problem with that. So, before we propagate some of these doctrines, we need to put our houses in order so that we do not have chaos in the end.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity. In contributing to this important Motion, allow me to take cognisance of the respective views from either side, for and against, and to speak to what we feel needs to be brought into context as we address the progress made in the application of national values and principles.

Mr Speaker, I will focus on principally two fundamental issues, namely national unity and patriotism. National unity by definition refers to the state of oneness which results from a shared purpose and aspirations irrespective of ethnic, cultural, economic and religious or any other superficial status while recognising diversity.

Mr Speaker, Zambia is among the top fourteen countries with the most languages on the continent. Nigeria has 520, Ethiopia has eighty-five, Sudan has eighty-one, Cameroon has 275,and Zambia has seventy-two languages. The majority among the countries in the top fourteen bracket have undergone serious challenges informed by ethnicity. Zambia has been spared from civil wars, military coups, terrorists, separatists and insurgent groups because the first generation of leaders in this country, the founding fathers and mothers of this country, who include Mr Godwin Mbikusita Lewanika, Mr Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula, Mr Kenneth David Buchizya Kaunda and Mr Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe understood that it ought to be ‘One Zambia, One Nation’.

Mr Speaker, we sing the National Anthem every day. When we pay particular attention to the words of the National Anthem, we sing that one land and one nation is our cry, land of work and joy in unity, all one strong and free. The former President of Mozambique, Mr Samora Machel said that, “for a nation to survive, tribe must die.” While nation in our motto stands for the people, it is important that this generation of leaders goes a step further. In agreeing with the President, it has to be ‘One Zambia, One Nation, One People’ and we can make that official, because sometimes, we fail to understand that the nation stands for people. So, let us be emphatic, make it very clear and revisit our motto so that it is ‘One Zambia, One Nation, and One People’.

Mr Speaker, patriotism speaks to one’s love, loyalty and devotion shown to one’s country. The Chief Whip of the Opposition spoke about collective responsibility. It takes a lot of patriotism for all of us to understand that we are in this House for a simple reason and that is to do what is right for the people of Zambia. One former United States of America President, said “ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country.”Unless and until we ascend to that level of understanding and appreciate the service we are expected to render to our nation, we will still be trapped in the petty arguments and differences that keep dividing us whilst overlooking the values and differences that unite us.

Mr Speaker, we, on both sides of the House, ought to explore that there are problems that unite us instead of us concentrating and belabouring those problems that divide us. In holding the Government or the Executive accountable, we will do our part to disagree without becoming personally disagreeable. Zambians out there are looking forward to a certain level of maturity from this House, where we can criticise and go beyond criticism but provide alternatives. We can criticise, offer solutions and alternatives, and we have what it takes. Our motivation is not to make the Executive fail. Our executive role is not to make the country fail but to understand that we rise together and we fall together.

Mr Speaker, the Sixth President of this country, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, said, “We must not seek political success on the back of national failure.” That should be a constant reminder when we talk about national service and why we are representing our people in this august House.

Mr Speaker, speaking about patriotism, allow me to go further and speak to discipline. The first need of any country to develop is discipline. In his own words, Lee Kuan Yew, the founding father of Singapore, speaking to the Philippines, said, “The Philippines needs more discipline than democracy.” The same can be said of Zambia. Most of the problems and challenges can be attributed to the lack of discipline. Therefore, it can be said that Zambia needs more of discipline than democracy in every sphere of life.

Mr Speaker, countries that have made strides are those that place high premiums on discipline. We can talk about the Asian Tiger nations: Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan. These countries have not bargained cheaply with the need for discipline.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, let me talk about issues around equity. I represent a rural constituency. The needs of a rural constituency and equity as a value entail that as we distribute the resources, you are going to give me the same money or the people of Kanchibiya the same money that you are giving to my brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central and expect us to rank paribus in terms of development. We are saying that can we talk about equity as opposed to equality.

Sir, the issue of our dear councillors is a serious matter. The cost of living is very high. This is admittedly so and the monies that they are getting are peanuts. Let us remember that these are our workers who are labouring so hard to ensure that they serve their communities.

Mr Speaker, finally, allow me to say that all of us have a duty to think about how we can serve the country better.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, thank you for recognising the good people of Solwezi East to add their voice to the debate on the President’s Address on the Progress that has been made so far in the application of national values and principles, that was issued to this august House on 24^th February, 2023.

Mr Speaker, the people of Solwezi East are really grateful for the President of the Republic of Zambia having issued such a wonderful and hope-giving statement. The President alluded to a number of things, but I will be able to settle just on one key issue, which the people of Solwezi East feel is quite cardinal and very important. This is the issue of human dignity, equity, social justice, equality and non-discrimination.

Mr Speaker, on human dignity, indeed, we have seen that this is a state of being worthy, acceptable and esteemed as a human being. We have seen under the leadership of His Excellency the President that human dignity has been restored. Before then, things were really not good in this nation. We were treated like foreigners in our own country. There was no dignity, worthiness or self-esteem by the Zambian citizens, especially those were considered to be of opposite views.

Mr Speaker, we have seen the restoration of human dignity. Now we are able to breathe. We have the space and we feel worthy as Zambians in our own land.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member who just debated was talking about worthiness relating to our national anthem and patriotism. Indeed, this has been demonstrated under the good leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema.

Mr Speaker, we also see the issue of equity as being fair and impartial. We have seen the impartiality even in the distribution of public resources. For example, on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), everyone has been applauding the President for equally distributing these resources to all the constituencies. This is a very welcome issue and the people of Solwezi East are really grateful to the President. Even on the issue of teacher recruitment, every constituency has at least received a fair share of teachers. For this, the people of Solwezi East say thanks to the President for indeed demonstrating the values and principles that we deserve as a nation.

Mr Speaker, when you look at the issue of social justice, everyone deserves equal economic, political and social rights and opportunities. This has been demonstrated because right now, if we look at the five principles that go with social justice such as access to resources, everyone now in all our constituencies has access to the resources through CDF. There is also access to free education and justice. There is representation even in the legal fraternity. That is what we are talking about. There is equitable distribution of resources and unity in diversity indeed. This has been shown in this country. Everyone is free, regardless of whatever tribe they are. Indeed, there is unity and every one of us, here, in Parliament is talking about unity in diversity. That has been demonstrated.

Mr Speaker, we come to participation and human rights. We have seen that indeed there is equal participation. For instance, if we go in our various districts and constituencies, our members are able to participate freely in the developmental agenda of the constituency. They are able to choose what they want each year. They can choose a school, clinic and so on and so forth. That is what it should be. That indeed gives us the freedom of expression, which is a right that we have as human beings.

Mr Speaker, the President talked about equality, which is the state of being equal in status, rights and opportunities, regardless of where one is born. This is was not the case previously. For some of us, even when we were working in the Government, as long as your name is from the Western, Southern or North-Western Province, we were victimised. We were thirteen of us at a certain workplace. Up to now, the case is still in court. That shows how bad we were treated, but thanks to the application of the national values and principles, now we are able to talk. Regardless of where we were born, we have equality.

Mr Speaker, lastly –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65 (1).

Mr Speaker, we have been sitting and following the hon. Member’s discourse quietly up to the time he started veering off the speech. The contents of the speech of the President were very clear and even when we are making debates out of the speech, we must be factual.

Mr Speaker, is he in order to insinuate that he and others were segregated or punished at his place of work when the hon. Member was working up to the time he went to participate in elections? Moreover, as one hon. Member was saying in the morning, his name is appearing in the Auditor-General’s report of still receiving a salary from his former employer. If he is punished for such kind of conduct, how can he apportion it to where he comes from? Is he in order to continue debating in that fashion?

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

I think that two wrongs cannot make a right because, in the first place, we know very well that we should not debate each other. Secondly, as you have stated, the hon. Member was working and I think – What do they say? It is only the person that wears the shoe who knows where –

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Yes, indeed.

So, maybe, the hon. Member is looking at it from the context of the work place where he was. Maybe, the issue of being maltreated is based on the experience that he had at his work place.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, we understand that you are basing your judgment on the basis of your work place because you did not use the country as a whole, but where you are working, if there was that segregation, that is why you were able to put it across that you were being segregated.

Mr Katakwe: Mr Speaker, indeed, only the wearer knows where the pinch is. I am talking from experience.

Mr Speaker, the case is in court, even today. Compensation has not been given. Whatever was alluded to on the Floor, you have got all the facts and I would rather that the ruling be made so that facts be presented and the nation be made clear on that issue.

Mr Speaker, on non-discrimination, we have seen that, indeed, there is fair and unprejudiced treating of all categories of people under the able leadership of the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema. Everyone is treated equally. That is why today, people who may not even have clean hands are able to speak even without facts. So, we are grateful for the wonderful speech that the President gave regarding the national values and principles. The people of Solwezi East submit.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for allowing the voice of the good people of Nalolo to be heard.

Mr Speaker, the President of the Republic of Zambia, pursuant to Article 9(2) of the Constitution, came to address the House on a number of values and principles which are clearly enumerated in Article 8. However, I will restrict my debate to three of those values and the first one that I want to address is that of democracy and constitutionalism.

Mr Speaker, indeed, we commend the President’s move on the removal of defamation of the President law. Indeed, it was an archaic law and we hope that the consultations on the Public Order Act will come to closure, though it its current form, it does not have much issues, it has just been the interference of politicians. So, we hope that as it comes to this House, it will equally be amended.

Mr Speaker, one of the things I expected the President to say was a clear roadmap on the amendment of the Constitution. We have a Constitution that still supports by-elections under Article 52, which are an unnecessary cost on the Treasury. Currently, this country is debt strapped and so, there is a need to have a clear roadmap to amend the Constitution. I expected that. So, I hope that even if that was not part of what he mentioned during constitutionalism, going forward, through the hon. Minister of Justice, we must have a clear roadmap on the Constitution.

Further, Mr Speaker, I would like to talk about human dignity, equity, social justice and equality. The Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is a game changer in all the constituencies. It is equally distributed, but not equitably because the dynamics in every constituency are different. The poverty levels are different. So, there is a need to relook at how this CDF is allocated. It must be allocated based on the needs.

Mr Speaker, one of the concerns I have about the CDF is its implementation. I describe it as centralised decentralisation. If Ward Development Committees (WDCs) should propose projects and then send them to the Constituency Development Committees (CDC), why should other projects come from the Central Government? So, decentralisation under the current CDF is still a white elephant.

Mr Speaker, when we look at issues to do with equitable appointments, Article 259 of the Constitution on says that unless where it is not practicable, 50 per cent of those appointed must come from both genders. Our Cabinet, out of twenty-five Members, only has four female hon. Ministers, but, maybe, the inclusion of Her Honour the Vice-President makes it five, on the backdrop of International Women’s Day. Currently, in their form, the appointments remain unconstitutional in terms of adherence to equitable appointments.

Mr Speaker, let me also talk about the appointment of youths. The definition of a youth under Article 266 is one below the age of 35 years. When we raise this issue, they say we are appointing the ‘youthful.’ There is no such a thing in the Constitution. So, part of the values should include appointments that consider women. We need more women in positions. We are not short of those women. We need more youths appointed and we are not short of those youths. We have a Cabinet in which there is no single youth. No one is below 35 years there (pointing at the Front Bench). So, part of those national values should be in practice.

Further, Mr Speaker, when we look at good governance and integrity –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Are you campaigning to be in the Cabinet ...

Laughter

Mr Wamunyima: No, Mr Speaker. On a lighter note, the Party for National Unity and Progress (PNUP) will

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: .... since you are below the age of thirty-two?

Mr Wamunyima: On a lighter note, Mr Speaker, the Party for National Unity and Progress (PNUP) will form Government and I will be in Cabinet then.

Laughter

Mr Wamunyima: Mr Speaker, I am happy as a duly elected representative of the good people of Nalolo and I am delivering.

Mr Speaker, I want to look at good governance and integrity. The President talked about the fight against corruption. I want to re-echo that I am concerned about the fight against corruption because, first of all, every time the fight against corruption is spoken of, no convictions are talked about. The Anti-Corruption Commission Report was brought here with one or two convictions. So, it is really questionable.

Right now, Mr Speaker, we have a court ruling on hunting concessions which declared actions from the Executive null and void. The court declared those actions null and void, but there has not been any action from the Executive. So, on the fight against corruption, we are wondering whether it is really practicable.

Mr Speaker, the 2021 Auditor-General’s Report revealed that in 2017, a company without directors in Zambia supplied fertiliser costing over K830 million. That company had no representation in terms of directors in Zambia, against the Companies Act, but we have not heard of any corruption case in terms of that company being summoned. In fact, the same company is still bidding to supply fertiliser. Now, we have companies by local citizens that have restrictions on their accounts and the country is losing jobs because of the fight against corruption, which may not seem to be in the light of what the rule of law should be.

Mr Speaker, we need to end this trend of demonising each other. One becomes successfully corrupt when a court convicts him/her. Being arrested on allegations of corruption is not being corrupt. We need to end the situation in which the fight against corruption is limited to owning houses and flats. We need to be serious about the fight against corruption. Next time, what we expect is a list of convictions. Grand corruption was a song. So, we expect, as part of that song to see those who were corrupt.

Further, Mr Speaker, it is very important to note that in this whole speech I have read, I have not found the term ‘Rule of Law.’ We expect the Executive to talk more about the rule of law and separation of powers. We should never have a situation where these things are not talked about.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mabonga (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for according the good people of Mfuwe Constituency, Lavushimanda District, to debate the President’s Address on the Progress Made on the Application of Values and Principles, as enshrined in Article 8 of the Constitution of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, indeed, a morally upright nation is key to achieving meaningful development. Before I debate the Speech, I want to try and make people understand what morality is. According to the dictionary, morality means the principles concerning the distinction between the right and wrong or the good and bad behaviour.

Mr Speaker, when the President was delivering the Speech, I wondered if there was any progress made by the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government. Therefore, my debate will be based on most of the campaign promises I used to hear from the UPND Government and I will link it to the progress they say they have made. From where I am standing, there is little or nothing that I have seen that we can talk about in terms of progress.

Mr Speaker, I will begin by talking about corruption. We see and hear, each and every day, on social media and television what is happening in the UPND Government with regard to corruption which they used to talk about so much when they were in the Opposition.

Mr Speaker, corruption is rampant in the UPND Government. I can even cite an example of the fertiliser scandal. We had the teacher recruitment where the Government said that those who needed to be –

Mr Mtolo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mfuwe, we are not allowed to read.

Ms Mabonga: Mr Speaker, I am not reading, but referring to my copious notes.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I have eyes.

Ms Mabonga: No, I am not reading. These are copious notes.

Mr Mtolo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, pursuant to our guiding document other than the noise from my good Hon. Kampyongo there, Article 65, paragraph (1) indicates that the content of speech must be factual.

Mr Speaker, I have been sitting here listening to a number of debates here and everyone continues talking about the fertiliser scandal. I think it is irregular and wrong for the hon. Members to talk about something they cannot substantiate.

Mr Speaker, is the current hon. Member on the Floor in order to just give an over role highfaluting sentence which she cannot substantiate?

Mr Speaker, is she in order?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, she is out of order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member is out of order to talk about things she may not be able to substantiate if immediately, she is requested to submit on the Floor, the evidence against the allegations she is making that the fertiliser has been scandalous. So, hon. Members, let us desist from making unwarranted allegations. Hon. Member for Mfuwe, you may continue.

Ms Mabonga: Mr Speaker, thank you so much and like I rightly put it, the information is out there on social media. Today, we have heard ...

Hon. Government members: Question!

Ms Mabonga: Mr Speaker, not only on social media, in the newspapers and everywhere –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, we guided that here we operate using facts.

Ms Mabonga: Much obliged, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Social media is not a platform that can be relied upon because people just smear each other on social media, unless you have documented facts that we can refer to. If not, desist from referring to social media.

You may continue.

Ms Mabonga: Well guided, Mr Speaker, I was talking about the corruption that we have been reading about in the newspaper and heard about on news. I was saying that we have heard of scandals to do with fertiliser, even in the Auditor-General’s Report. In my constituency, I even reported this issue. Some people stole fertiliser, and the theft was reported to have been done by presidential appointees and this information is all over. Relief food, which is supposed to be given to the people who are suffering, is going in the pockets of cadres.

Mr Speaker, let me talk about the rule of law. The President or the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government talk about this issue so much. I am just wondering what progress we have made, since in the last one year and some months the UPND has been in the Government, we have witnessed alien cases. The people of Zambia and I are worried because of the manner in which the issue of the thirteen girls that were abducted for over eight months was handled. If you have seen the reaction of the Executive or the New Dawn Government, this issue has not been given the attention it deserves. We are talking about thirteen girls aged between eighteen and twenty-two. Those young girls are the future generation and we must see to it that they are protected.

Mr Speaker, the people out there and I are worried about the case, in which twenty-eight bodies were discovered in the city of Lusaka. Nobody knows where those people came from even up today and everyone has been talking about the manner in which the New Dawn Government handled the issue. All these issues have been swept under the carpet. When people talk about them, they are intimidated.

Mr Speaker, let me go back to the issue of the abduction. We heard names of prominent people mentioned, and some of whom are even here. At the end of the day, we have discovered that the manner in which the UPND Government is handling the case –

Mr Hamwaata: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hamwaata: Mr Speaker, the rules of this House are very clear. The hon. Member on the Floor has been guided that she is supposed to provide information that is relevant. Standing Order No. 65(1)(b) says as follows:

“(1) A member who is debating shall–

(b) ensure that the information he or she provides to theHouse is factual and verifiable.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member on the Floor is alleging that the appointees have been stealing fertiliser. Can the hon. Member on the Floor provide facts and lay evidence on the Floor?

Mr Speaker, I submit.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let us ensure that the information we provide is factual and verifiable. An arrest does not mean conviction. One can only be convicted if proven guilt. So, those that have been arrested or purported to be arrested are just assertions that are made. So, let us ensure that we bring information that can be proven in this House. So, hon. Member, let us desist from making such assertions.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Ms Mabonga: I am well guided, Mr Speaker.

Sir, Let me talk about good governance and democracy. His Excellency the President talked about free and fair by-elections. I was wondering where the by-elections that were free and fair were held because all of us saw the violence that happened in the few by-elections that we have had from the time the UPND formed Government.

Sir, there are also Members of Parliament who are seated in here who have been forced on the people of Kabushi and Kwacha.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah! Question!

Mr Mabonga: Their right to–

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Ms Mabonga: You can say ‘question’, but their right to elect a leader of their choice was not given to the people of Kabushi and Kwacha.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mabonga: I was wondering when the President talked free and fair elections when your hon. Member of Parliament, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mkushi, was almost killed. The same happened to the hon. Member for Feira who was equally almost killed during the by-elections. So, I was wondering what the President meant when he said we had for and fair by-elections. The by-elections are a no go area for us women because what has been happening there is terrible. So, if the President means well, he must ensure that all those things are dealt with.

Mr Speaker, let me also talk about sustainable development. Yes, we need foreign investors, but we need more Zambian investors. What the UPND Government has been from the time they assumed office is to destroy Zambian-owned companies. I can cite some examples. One of them is Savenda Group of Companies, and many others.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mabonga: So, if talk about sustainable development, I do not know if we would encourage foreign investors more than local investors.

Sir, I sat here listening to the President issuing threats against his own citizens. He said that he would ensure that the people who own companies, those –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you are good at reading.

Ms Mabonga: They are copious notes.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us avoid that. You are supposed to debate and not to be reading. You may continue.

Ms Mabonga: Mr Speaker, I hope you can give me some few minutes because you have interrupted me throughout.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Ms Mabonga: I was saying that the President kept on threatening people that own Zambian Companies and I was wondering if we will be able to achieve the sustainable development that we are talking about because as are speaking today, most of the Zambian-owned companies are criminalised. They are calling all of them criminals and that they are corrupt. I do not know if we are going to attain that sustainable development we have been talking about.

Finally, the President was not very clear on the issue of gender equality.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, I thank you so very much for according me this opportunity to add two or three sentences to the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, allow me to look at the issue of governance or democracy and Constitutionalism. When we talk about the issue of democracy, it is very important that we align ourselves to its content and to not expect the President to come here and single out what constitutes democracy. Although we are not allowed to debate ourselves, we have heard previous speakers who expected the President to come here and talk about the issue of separation of powers.

Mr Speaker, the rule of law is one of the tenets that make or contribute to what we call good governance. We cannot speak about democracy without talking about the elements that have always been stated on this Floor as elements that constitute good governance.

Mr Speaker, from the time the New Dawn Government took over power, there is no one who can doubt that we are in a country we have always longed to have. This is because of the tenets of good governance. Unfortunately, this was not the case previously. As a human rights lawyer,I have always advocated that it is only under the New Dawn Government where we can achieve what we have always wanted.

Mr Speaker, we have states that have written constitutions and those that do not have. In our case, we have an instrument we call a Constitution. Hence, we qualify to be a constitutional state. However, that does not mean that we qualify to be called a democratic state. The two aspects can be at loggerheads at any point.

Mr Speaker, if the contents of the Constitution are what the citizens of this country qualify or wish to have, then that is what makes a country democratic. Is it the case in this Republic? The answer can be either yes or no. The democratic part is what the people of Zambia are enjoying now.

The elements of transparency, Mr Speaker, are what we cried for. We have seen the way the Government of this Republic releases funds from our coffers every day. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning makes a pronouncement at every point when he is about to release funds. That alone actually adds to what we call transparency. It means that the people of this Republic, regardless of geography and ethnicity, are able to know how the hon. Minister of finance is working every day.

Mr Speaker, when it comes to issues of accountability, we have seen and heard how the Government utilises the money that is released. Anyone is free, at any time, to go and check whether, indeed, the money that has been released has been utilised to the levels that the Government of the Republic of Zambia and the people expect.

Mr Speaker, we have been given the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) guidelines and that alone translates to accountability. For any projects we would want to undertake in our constituencies, we are always told to ensure that we seek permission from the people who have been given authority over CDF management. This is to ensure that CDF is being put to good use. That alone is what we call accountability.

Mr Speaker, I think there is no one who can doubt the levels of enjoyment of human rights by the people of Zambia. Everyone is allowed to enjoy their rights to their full capacity. Of course, it has to be mentioned that human rights are not absolute. We can only enjoy them to a certain extent. Beyond that, the Republic of Zambia through laws that have been enacted can restrict or derogate those rights.

Overall, Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia are now free to enjoy their freedoms and rights at an even rate. No one has, so far, had his/her rights abrogated or derogated wilfully by the State. We would not want to cite incidents because they are already in our memories. We know what happened before. Based on what is obtaining now, this is what we call real governance for real men. The law is at bay.

Mr Speaker, going forward, the people of Zambia can vividly see the tenets of democracy we are enjoying; decentralisation, gender equality, transparency, accountability, rule of law and human rights. Put together, this is what we have always been crying for. I encourage the New Dawn Government to continue on this trend so that the citizens of this country can see a distinction, which other people would call a difference, in the way we were governed before and what we are enjoying now.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to add the voice of the people I represent on the debate on this very important Motion.

Mr Speaker, talking about the issue of sustainable development, the enhancing of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is a very good thing. However, there is a need for the Government to fine-tune the gray areas that have been cited, unlike targeting to amend the CDF Act for the purpose of bringing in other people into it.

Mr Speaker, currently, we have a situation in which the Government is not undertaking massive capital projects in various constituencies due to financial limitations. So, the CDF, in the meantime, can be used as an alternative. However, if it is turned into what I would call a district development fund, it is a recipe for confusion.

Mr Speaker, the President spoke about morality. Currently, we are hit with what I would call a moral tsunami, the issue of homosexuality. In the history of this country, we have never had a situation where those propagating homosexuality would go publicly doing so.

Mr Speaker, this calls on the Government to come to Parliament and toughen the laws against homosexuality. Currently, we are depending on a piece of legislation that talks about the order of nature. We must enact a law that will specifically target those who are involved in homosexuality. Even those men who are dressing like women must be punished under that law.

Mr Speaker, we want the Hon. Minister of Justice, like yesterday, to use this sitting to come and enact a law that will specifically target those who are involved in homosexuality.

Mr Speaker, the President also talked about the issue of human dignity and equity. There is no human dignity in suffering. Our people are suffering. They are suffering to an extent where I would say, there is nothing about –

Mr Haimbe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Haimbe: Mr Speaker, I rise pursuant to Standing Order 65 (b), on the factual content of the debate by the hon. Member who has stood to mislead the nation and this House, once again, deliberately or out of a lack of knowledge, by suggesting that the laws in this country are not sufficient to deal with matters of the nature that he is speaking about and that this Government is championing homosexual rights.

Mr Speaker, he is misleading the nation deliberately, yet he knows very well, and it was spoken of in this House by the hon. Members on your left that persons who committed that offence have been placed in custody and the law enforcers are taking steps against them. More importantly, he suggests that there are no sufficient laws in this country – By the way, this statute book has been there from the 1930s – even when his hon. Colleagues on your left were in charge of the Government, yet did not do anything.

Mr Speaker, the point is, the hon. Member who took the Floor of the House is misleading the nation and the House, deliberately, and cannot be allowed to do so. Is he in order?

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I reserve my ruling.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 14^th March, 2023.

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Friday, 10th March, 2023

Order Paper

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