Debates- Thursday, 12th July, 2012

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Thursday, 12th July, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]





Mr Deputy Speaker: I wish to inform the House that the Road Development Agency (RDA) will hold a stakeholders’ workshop on the 2012 Road Sector Annual Work Plan (RSAWP) on Monday, 16th July, 2012, at 0930 hours in the Amphitheatre at Parliament Buildings. The purpose of the workshop is to orient hon. Members of Parliament on the planned and on-going activities for 2012. I urge hon. Members to attend this important workshop. 

Thank you.



466. Mr Njeulu (Sinjembela) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Tourism when the Government would start cropping wildlife, such as crocodiles, hippos and elephants, in Shang’ombo District, following an increase in the number of deaths of people and livestock and the destruction of crops by hippos and elephants.

The Vice-President (Dr Scott) (on behalf of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Tourism (Mr Lubinda)): Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to crop crocodiles, hippos and elephants in Shang’ombo District because there is no current and reliable population data for these animals in the area. Cropping of animals involves killing of a significant number and this should, therefore, only be undertaken when data indicates that the animal numbers are high and able to support cropping without undermining their survival, as species. However, it may be the case that human-wildlife conflicts involving crocodiles, elephants and hippos only appear to have increased because human settlements have increasingly encroached into wildlife habitats, thereby, increasing contact between humans and wildlife.

Mr Speaker, however, the Government, through the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA), has taken the following measures to minimise these conflicts:

(a)    development of the General Management Plan (GMP) for game management areas (GMAs), through stakeholders’ participatory approach, for guiding economic settlements and conservation activities in the various areas. It is expected that, when the stakeholders abide by the guidelines and zoning scheme in the GMP, human-wildlife conflicts will be minimised because encroachment into wildlife habitats will be avoided;

(b)    ZAWA field officers have been mandated to kill problem animals that threaten human lives and property. They assess and control problem animals accordingly. I must confess, though, that I am not sure whether there is such a thing as a non-problematic crocodile. I think that any crocodile of a sufficient size and appetite will be a problem;

(c)    the ZAWA management, through its extension services in the GMAs, conducts sensitisation programmes in which villagers are advised to avoid confrontations with wildlife by avoiding settling in wildlife corridors and habitats; and 

(d)    villagers have been taught how to use methods that scare away animals, especially elephants, such as the use of chilli fences or burning chilli with elephant dung, around their property or fields.

Mr Speaker, the table below shows the numbers of reports of problem animals; people killed by crocodiles, hippos and elephants; and animals killed as cropped in Shang’ombo District, from 2008 to 2011.

Year    No. of Animal    No. of Crop        No. of People            No. of    Reports to ZAWA    Damage            Killed                Animals
                Reports                             Cropped

    Crocodiles         Hippos     Elephants
2008        263    245    1    0    0    1 Elephant 

2009    593    579    7    3    0    1 Hippo and                             1 Crocodile

2010    330    318    4    0    0    1 Elephant and 1 Crocodile

2011    272    267    2     0    1    1 Hippo and                             1 Elephant

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

His Honour the Vice-President’s laughter is part of the answer.

Njeulu: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to raise a serious constitutional point of order, hinging on Article 62 of the Constitution of Zambia, read together with Article 80.

Mr Speaker, Sir, …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Please, use ‘Mr Speaker’.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, Article 62 of the Constitution of Zambia confers the power to make laws on Parliament. Further, Article 80 provides that this power may be delegated to an institution, authority or any other organisation that Parliament deems fit. 

Mr Speaker, arising from the constitutional provisions I have cited above, and in light of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s purported issuance of Statutory Instrument No. 33 of 2012. This particular instrument was, purportedly, issued under existing Laws of the Republic of Zambia. 

Mr Speaker, Sir, …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, it is either ‘Mr Speaker’ or ‘Sir’. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, under Gazette Notice No. 6072, the Government of the Republic of Zambia issued the Bank of Zambia Act, 2012, Statutory Instrument No. 33.

Mr Speaker, Sir, …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: I am sorry. Mr Speaker, Sir, with your permission, …


Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it is because I am very cultured …


Mr Mwiimbu: … that I endeavour to call you ‘Mr Speaker, Sir’. I apologise. 

Mr Speaker, the statutory instrument, which I will lay on the Table, reads: 

“Government of Zambia, Statutory Instrument No. 33 of 2012. The Bank of Zambia Act, 2012. Laws, Volume 20, Cap 360”.

Mr Speaker, I was in this House when the PF came to power, and I am still here. During all this time, I have never seen the Bank of Zambia Act, 2012. 


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, Sir, …

Hon. Members: Mr Speaker!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I want to state, without fear of any contradiction, that this House has never passed any laws pertaining to the Bank of Zambia in 2012. This particular statutory instrument emanates from a law that does not exist. It, therefore, entails that this instrument is null and void, for there is no authority, whatsoever, that confers the authority on the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to pass a statutory instrument based on a non-existing law. The issue …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

What is your Point of Order?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is the Government of the Republic of Zambia in order to enforce and implement a policy that is not based on any law passed by this honourable House? Further, we, as hon. Members of Parliament, have been sworn before you to defend the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia and ensure that all laws that are enacted are in conformity with it. Is the Government in order to enforce this instrument and threaten citizens with sanctions, …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: … based on a law that is illegal? Mr Speaker, are they in order?

Mr Deputy Speaker: That is an important point of order.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I will lay the statutory instrument and the Gazette Notice on the Table.

Mr Kambwili: Go and lay it on your dining table. 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! 

Mr Mwiimbu: I have never known that you are a fool. 

Mr Mwiimbu laid the paper on the Table. 


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! 

You see, …


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

It is issues like these that make us, Presiding Officers, seem like dictators. You know the rules of the game. When we say, “Do not make remarks while seated”, we fear this kind of thing. The hon. Minister of Youth and Sport, Hon. Kambwili’s remark was quite loud. I heard it. That was not correct. However, that does not mean that Hon. Mwiimbu’s response was appropriate. This is unacceptable and I want to warm you that this should be the last time that this happens. If it happens again, I will send both of you out. 

My response to that point of order is that I reserve ruling to a later stage. 

The hon. Member for Sinjembela may continue. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Njeulu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the Government has no plans to crop the animals that are killing people in Shang’ombo. 


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Njeulu: Is the Government considering compensating farmers, whose crops were destroyed by these animals, particularly the elephants? 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there is no compensation policy relating to wild animals. What there is, however, is, firstly, an intention to conduct a census of animals in various parts of Zambia, for which ZAWA is seeking funding in the 2013 Budget. To know whether this funding will be provided, at this stage, is a matter for someone who has got a crystal ball. Secondly, there is a considerable amount of money spent or committed to the employment of village scouts, amongst others, to protect fields and human life from wild animals. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, are there any plans by the Government to re-introduce District Game Scouts? 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, that matter will have to await a policy statement. We can be reasonably sure that, with our new energetic hon. Minister of Tourism and Art, this will not be too long coming. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Sianga (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President, on the Floor of this House, confirm that the PF-led Government considers animal life to be more important than human life.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Sesheke, that question does not relate to the question of animals in Shang’ombo. Please, let us learn to ask questions that are relevant to what is under discussion. That is an important question, but it is irrelevant to what is being discussed. I, therefore, overrule it. 

Mr Ng’onga: Long live the Chair!

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, in view of the consistent problem of crocodiles in many areas, could it not be a good idea for the Government to consider introducing crocodile farming in affected areas?

Mr Deputy Speaker: That question is, equally, overruled. Next question, please. 

Mr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, when did human beings start encroaching on GMAs? 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us confine questions to Shang’ombo. If your question concerning GMAs is in relation to Shang’ombo, I will uphold it. 

His Honour the Vice-President may respond.  

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as was clearly stated, in the answer, one of the attempts to avoid conflict between humans and animals is to zone the GMA correctly, in such a way that the interaction between them is minimised. That is what should be done in Shang’ombo. That is, for example, what happened in Sichifulo, where the settlers, who were, at some point, expelled from the area, were allowed back to that place, subject to them remaining within the carefully zoned area away from animals. So, the answer is: Since many years ago, maybe, the time of Adam and Eve, people have been encroaching on animal domains, but we have attempted to minimise that practice, today.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, would the Government urgently consider sending relief food to the farmers of Shang’ombo, who have lost their crop.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I will try and find an opportunity, tomorrow. to confirm whether food has already been distributed to the area.

I thank you, Sir.


467. Mr Njeulu asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    when the Government would construct a secondary school in Shang’ombo District;

(b)    when the Government would construct staff houses for the office of the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) in the district; and

(c)    whether the Government had been considering converting some community schools in the district into public schools.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, there is a school that is being constructed in Shang’ombo, by the name of Nangweshi Boarding Secondary School. The external works for Phase II have just been signed for and the school is expected to be completed in April 2013.

Sir, the staff houses for the DEBS will only be constructed when funds are available.

Sir, the Government has plans to upgrade community schools so that they are able to provide quality education to pupils through the provision of qualified teachers, teaching and learning materials and adequate classroom space.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Njeulu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the DEBS’s office has been in Senanga since 1997?

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, the ministry is aware of what Hon. Njeulu has said.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, how does the ministry intend to maintain standards at schools in Shang’ombo when the people who are supposed to monitor the schools there  live in Senanga, which is 100km away?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, Shang’ombo is a relatively newly-created district. Over the years, it has been run from Senanga. This situation is not good enough for the supervision and monitoring of educational facilities in Shang’ombo. However, we will endeavour to speed up the development of the necessary infrastructure to enable Shang’ombo stand alone, rather than depending on Senanga.

Thank you, Sir.


468. Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    when the General Pharmaceuticals Company of Kabwe was privatised;

(b)    whether all the former workers had been paid their terminal benefits;

(c)    if not, when the former workers would be paid their benefits; and

(d)    whether the company’s houses had been sold and, 

(e)    if so, to whom.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Sampa): Mr Speaker, the General Pharmaceuticals Company was privatised on a competitive tender basis through a sale of 100 per cent shares to Mutashi Limited on 22nd February, 1994. Subsequently, Mutashi Limited went into liquidation in 1997.

Sir, at the time of privatisation, the company had a workforce of eighty-nine employees and these were retained by the new owners. The sale of 100 per cent shares in the company obliged the new shareholders to assume the responsibility for all assets and liabilities, including employees’ terminal benefits according to the Companies Act. 

Sir, all assets of the company, including houses, were taken over by the new shareholders at the point of privatisation. Thus, the shareholders were responsible for the distribution of the assets.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, what measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that all ex-employees of parastatal companies that were privatised are given their benefits so that they do not go into destitution?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, indeed, most of them have already been paid their benefits but, in some companies like Lintco, it seems that this issue is a never-ending story. In some institutions, when you pay off some retirees, there seems to be some groups that keep coming up and taking their cases to court. So, you find that there are groups of 1992 and 1994 and each grouping with its own lawyers. Even when they are paid, they come up with one argument after another. However, the Government has done its best to meet all its commitments according to the Companies Act.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, what led to this company being privatised?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, that was the policy of the Government of the day. It decided to privatise most public companies. 

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, did I hear the hon. Deputy Minister correctly when he said that, since this company was privatised, the responsibility of paying off the workers was transferred to the new owners? Did I hear you say that, hon. Deputy Minister?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, you did hear me correctly. This particular transaction entailed that the new buyers of this company took over all the responsibilities, including paying off all the terminal benefits.

I thank you, Sir.


469. Mr Chungu (Luanshya) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education why pit latrines were being constructed at newly-built schools in urban townships, which had sewerage lines within close proximity.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, pit latrines are being constructed at newly-constructed schools in urban townships that have sewerage lines in close proximity as an interim measure that will cater for emergency situations and as a result of budgetary constraints that are not making it possible to construct water-borne ablution blocks.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chungu: Mr Speaker, when will the Government construct new toilets in Luanshya since some of them have already collapsed?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, pit latrines are constructed as a last resort. We will try to resist the temptation of constructing classroom blocks without considering sanitary facilities. To this effect, we will follow up the case in Luanshya and quickly try to normalise the situation in which we have put the young people at those schools.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, I appreciate what the hon. Minister has just said. However, is the Government considering sinking boreholes from which we can get water to supply to the toilets in the schools? I have the case of Chizongwe Secondary School at hand …

Mr Deputy Speaker: The question has been asked.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, that is an option that we are also exploring. I am glad the hon. Member of Parliament has ably explained why boreholes are important in such circumstances.

I thank you, Sir.


470. Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication when the Government would tar the following roads in Kaoma town:

(a)    graveyard;

(b)    church; and

(c)    Mulamba Old Hospital.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications (Dr Mwali): Mr Speaker, the Road Development Agency (RDA), through the local road agency which, in this case, is Kaoma District Council, is currently surveying the selected township and urban roads in Kaoma to be considered for rehabilitation in next year’s annual work plan. The roads to be surveyed include all the above-mentioned.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


471. Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock:

(a)    when the Luena Farm Block project in Kawambwa District would be operational;

(b)    what the timeframes for different stages of development were;

(c)    how much money the project would require to make it operational; and

(d)    what caused the delay in operationalising the project.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr N. Banda): Mr Speaker, the Luena Farm Block Development Programme is expected to be operational by 2015 on condition that the required finances are made available on time. The timeframes for different stages of development are as follows:

Time/     Stage of development     Remarks

2007/08    Feasibility studies    Already done
    Agricultural land identification 
    and alienation
    Environmental impact assessment

    Preliminary layout plan

    Basic baseline data

    Advocacy and sensitisation
    2012    Trunk roads (K40 billion already     Budgeted for
        allocated to RDA in the 2012 budget)

        Demarcations and surveys 

        Advocacy and sensitisation

        Identification of electrification routes (K1 billion allocated
        to the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock in 2012)

2013    Electrification     Not yet budgeted for

    Dam construction and sinking of boreholes


    Cadastral surveys

    Upgrading of health facilities

    Upgrading of, at least, one school into a high school

    Advocacy and sensitisation

    Setting up of police post

2014    Irrigation infrastructure and distribution canals

    Investor identification

    Land allocation

    Preparation of title deeds

    Advocacy and sensitisation

2015    Operational

Sir, in 2005, K114 billion was estimated as the money required to operationalise Luena Farm Block. However, due to inflation and other economic factors, K256 billion is, now, required for completion of the programme.

Mr Speaker, financial constraints have been the major factor causing the delays in the operationalisation of the programme.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}


472. Mr Kalaba (Bahati) asked the Minister of Health how many health posts the ministry would build in Bahati Parliamentary Constituency in 2012.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, the Government has embarked on the construction of 650 health posts across the country under a US$50 million credit line from the Government of India. In addition, 125 health posts that the Government started building in 2011 are at different stages of construction, with most of them having been completed. The ministry has, this year, planned to equip all the completed health facilities so as to make them operational.

Mr Speaker, in 2012, the Government will construct three health posts in Bahati Parliamentary Constituency; at Matelo, Chofwe and Nsanje. These sites have been arrived at through a consultative process between the district health office in Mansa and other stakeholders, including the communities. The Ministry of Health’s policy is to locate these facilities in places where most communities can access them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, what is the specific period in which the construction of these health posts will start and finish, given the fact that, very soon, the rain season will start?

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, invitations for bids for the construction of the three health posts in Bahati have already been made. The hon. Deputy Minister mentioned that 125 health posts are going to be constructed, this year, and most of them are already completed. So, there can be no question about the timing of the project. However, there may be a question about the timeframe for the construction of the 650 health posts that have been advertised. This advertisement appeared in the Zambia Daily Mail of Monday, 9th July, 2012, to which the hon. Member may not have had access. However, I am pleased to say that the countdown can, now, begin for the process of tendering and construction of the other 650 health posts.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Sir, it has been reported by the hon. Deputy Minister that the Government intends to build 650 health posts. Can the hon. Minister confirm whether it is true that these 650 health posts will be made of prefabricated materials, and if so, say whether this is prudent.

Dr Kasonde: Sir, the instruction given to all those who are going to tender does not describe, specifically, that they be prefabricated. However, it does say that those who bid should have had experience of constructing such structures. We are aware that, of those who were campaigning to be included, several wanted to build prefabricated structures because of the speed of construction. In other words, whereas it is acceptable to have prefabricated structures, it is not necessarily what is going to be done. Both options are open.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, since the PF Government came into power, it has been talking about the construction of these 650 health posts. When, exactly, are we going to have them built?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member should not ‘start’ me.



Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Kasonde: Sir, I was under the impression that I gave the timeframe for the construction of the 650 health posts. Perhaps, if the hon. Member did not follow, I should repeat that the advertisement appeared in The Zambia Daily Mail on Monday, 9th July, 2012, inviting bids. The processes that take place, thereafter, can virtually be calculated by even those without a higher degree in mathematics.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Deputy Speaker: So, she was right to ‘start’ you.


Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, …


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, taking into account the fact that public facilities, such as schools and health posts in Bahati Constituency, are always overwhelmed by people from Mansa, has the Government got any intention …

Mr Deputy Speaker: What is the question, hon. Member?

Mr Mbulakulima: I am just hammering the question, Mr Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker: No, you are making a statement.

Mr Mbulakulima: Has the Government got any intention of, at least, increasing the number of health posts to be constructed in Bahati Constituency?

Dr Kasonde: Sir, the Government has no intention of increasing the number of these health posts because it was arrived at after very serious and extensive consultations. We would like to believe that these consultations were adequate to allow us to arrive at practical figures and we will stay with those figures.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, 650 health posts will go a long way in meeting some of the health needs of our people. Can the hon. Minister indicate to this House whether he will share his plans with regard to the location of these facilities.

Dr Kasonde: Sir, as I indicated in my earlier remarks, the location of these health posts was arrived at in consultation with the local populations. What the ministry will do is announce the outcome of those consultations. So, the sharing should have been done already. I hope that the hon. Member has been to his constituency and influenced the decisions on the location of the health post there.

I thank you, Sir.


473. Dr Kazonga (Vubwi) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a)    whether the mobile phone communication towers had any dangerous effects on human life and the environment;

(b)    if so, what the dangers were; and

(c)    what measures had been taken to reduce the negative impact.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Colonel Kaunda): Mr Speaker, mobile telephone communication towers do not have dangerous effects on human beings. Numerous technical and medical studies have been carried out over the past two decades in respect of telecommunication towers and their adverse effects on human health and well-being. None of the studies have, to date, provided conclusive and definitive scientific data that demonstrates any adverse effects of telecommunication towers on human health or the environment. Further, in 2010, the Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA) conducted a study of the radiation effects of the local mobile telephone communication towers through a consultant called GeoQuest. The study covered all provincial centres in the country and the results showed that the towers had no adverse effects to human life as the human exposure levels from electromagnetic fields were well within the limits of the 2007 National Human Exposure Limit range of 0.0001 per cent to 0.1 per cent.

Sir, equipment such as generators and batteries do have some impact on the environment, such as the noise pollution emanating from the generators and possible electronic waste, more so from batteries and other equipment containing toxic substances, such as lead and mercury. 

Mr Speaker, Greenhouse gases from air conditioners and generators may further impact on the flora and fauna by their contribution to climate change, although, at present, the mobile telephone industry contributes less than 3 per cent of the Greenhouse emissions. On a positive note, communication towers do provide a path for lightning conduction. Good construction could safeguard the lives of the community in lightning-prone areas. In order to mitigate the adverse impact of communication towers on the environment, there is a standing requirement for operators to submit an environmental assessment report to the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) as part of the clearance processes for construction of towers.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, are there any intentions to regularly monitor the radio frequency radiation levels emitted from the communication towers.

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, it is the Government’s intention to continuously safeguard both the environment and human beings in all projects. There are always impact assessment reports that are generated. It is important to continuously monitor this process and ensure that, whatever provision that is made is, actually, safe for the people of Zambia. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, how long does it take for a study to ascertain that the radiation does not have an impact on the instruments that are being used in the research?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, that is a general question. Studies depend on a particular operation but, in this case, studies will continuously be carried out so that reports are generated because there are many views over the same subject worldwide. Therefore, we need to be alert.

Thank you, Sir.


474. Dr Kazonga asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education when the Government would construct teachers’ houses at the following schools in Vubwi Parliamentary Constituency:

(a)    Tafeladziko;

(b)    Songeya;

(c)    Kalemba;

(d)    Mwangazi;

(e)    Mkumbudzi;

(f)    Kapiri-Mphika;

(g)    Kabvumo;

(h)    Champhanda; and

(i)    Chankhandwe.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the ministry has an on-going programme of increasing access to education by building classroom blocks, VIP latrines and teachers’ houses as well as rehabilitating old buildings. 

Mr Speaker, Kabvumo School was planned for in the 2010 Infrastructure Development Plan, but the construction of a 1 x 3 classroom block and one teacher’s house could not commence due to unavailability of financial resources. However, the Government intends to go ahead with the projects at Kabvumo as well as Tafeladziko, Songeya, Kalemba, Mwangazi, Mkumbudzi, Kapiri-Mphika, Champhanda and Chankhandwe schools when adequate funds are made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, when will these funds be made available so that the pupils have access to quality education?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the housing deficit for our teachers is alarmingly high. As a ministry, although we are concerned about it, we are constrained by the finances that are given to us. I will give you an impression of the enormity of this problem. In the 2012 plan, we are only targeting a paltry 248 teachers’ houses. This is a drop in the ocean, but I am hoping that, with increased funding to the ministry, we can attack this programme more vigorously than we are doing now.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister state whether the ministry has plans to increase the allocation for teachers’ houses in the 2013 Budget, because it is the ministry that should factor that into the budget.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Well, I would have been a bit reluctant to call upon the hon. Minister. Can the hon. Minister answer that question.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I also rise reluctantly.


Dr Phiri: I can only say that the ministry will endeavour to construct teachers’ houses countrywide and will factor in this need as an area of emphasis in the 2013 Budget.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, why does the ministry have low targets in constructing houses for teachers when other ministries, such as the Ministry of Defence, are targeting constructing over 1,000 houses in a year? Why is the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education only looking at low targets like 200?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, within the budget that this House allocated, we could only build 248 houses for 2012, but that does not reduce the need for the ministry to improve on this figure.

I thank you, Sir.


475. Dr Kazonga asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the Government would clear the weeds from the Lundazi Dam, particularly, between the Lundazi Bridge and the Castle Hotel.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Masumba): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the area under inquiry falls under the Department of Water Affairs in the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development. In our current budget, there is no provision for weed control in areas outside our immediate catchment as that requires capital investment. However, the Eastern Water and Sewerage Company has included this as a project in our capital investment for 2013. During the rehabilitation of the Lundazi Dam, under the Phase I of the Urban Water Supply and Sanitation Project for Eastern Province, weed control was not included due to the limited budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, is the ministry aware that the dam is a major source of water supply to the township in Lundazi and, therefore, there is an urgent need for something to be done about those weeds?

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Professor Luo): Mr Speaker, in fact, we are aware that this is a major source of water and so did Dr Kazonga, when he was hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. I just wish he had done what needed to be done.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!



476.    Mr Hamusonde asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when a modern market would be constructed at Buseko in Lusaka.

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, the construction of modern markets requires high capital investment. Due to the limited provisions for this exercise, in the 2012 Annual Budget, the Government does not have immediate plans for the construction of a new market at Buseko in Lusaka during 2012. However, the Government is still soliciting for funding from co-operating partners to assist in the construction of modern markets in various parts of the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Namulambe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I am sorry to disturb my elder brother. Is the hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing in order to put on a jacket that is like a rain coat in the House? I need your serious ruling.


Mr Deputy Speaker: From where the Chair is seated, …


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

… it appears that he is in order.


Mr Deputy Speaker: Can the hon. Member for Nangoma continue.

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister state whether some levies are collected at Buseko Market. If so, why is the council failing to put up decent toilets there?

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, indeed, it is true that councils are supposed to collect levies from markets. The funds collected are, in turn, supposed to be invested back into the markets. However, we inherited a very strange system in which some groups of people were allowed to collect levies from the markets and abuse the money. We have since given instructions for the Lusaka City Council and other councils to take over the running of the markets under the Market Act, but the implementation by our councils has been slow because some of the groups still exist in the markets. It will take quite a long time to deal with the situation because we are dealing with human behaviour.

Mr Speaker, students of the behavioural sciences know that changing human behaviour cannot happen overnight; it takes quite a while. However, we are trying our best to ensure that the markets run properly and we can collect enough revenue to plough back into their development.

Mr Speaker, secondly, we are trying to do away with the manual system of collecting levies. We have since been putting up inquiries for companies that can collect revenue using current technology. Once we remove the human element, it will be possible for us to have enough resources to put back in the markets.

I thank you, Sir.


477.    Mr Hamusonde asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    whether the Government had any plans to relocate Choombwa Primary School in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency to a place where water was easily accessible; and 

(b)    if so, when the plans would be implemented.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the Government has no plans, currently, to relocate Choombwa Primary School to a place where water is easily accessible. However, the Government has plans to drill boreholes in schools faced with water crises in the country. This will be done in phases, beginning this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is saying that the Government has no plans to relocate the school to a place where water is easily accessible. Why, then, can the school not be closed, instead of having pupils going to a school that has no water?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I like the way the hon. Members jump each time they hear ‘no plan’. They think, “Aah, it confirms our suspicions.” 


Dr Phiri: That is not how we should operate. You are part of the Government machinery and we depend on you to strengthen us. 

Mr Speaker, in answering the question, let me give additional information. Choombwa Primary School was established in 1968 to serve the farming community and the surrounding villages. The school was served by piped water pumped from about 2km away. The water reticulation system has since been vandalised and rendered non-functional for almost ten years now. This forced other Government departments to move to other areas. The community, therefore, proposed to shift the school from the present position to a new site, where water could be easily found.

Mr Speaker, information from the District Education Board Secretary’s (DEBS) Office informs us that they are lobbying other players in education to assist in the construction and development of the school at the new site. We are depending on the office of the DEBS’ lobbying to make an informed decision. The district office is working with Cargill Cotton Company and the Copperbelt Development Foundation. The two have already conducted a field appraisal at the site. The office of the DEBS has captured the school in this year’s annual work plan and the budget for construction of 1x3 and 1x2 classroom blocks at the new site is in sight now. However, in the meantime, we have made a provision to try, once more, to drill a borehole, which can be used at the old site whilst we are looking at the feasibility of shifting the school elsewhere.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.{mospagebreak}


478.    Mr Sichula (Nakonde) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a)    when the routine maintenance works on the Great North Road, particularly, between Chinsali and Nakonde districts would start;

(b)    what the estimated cost of the work was; and

(c)    how long the maintenance project would take.

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, there was a contractor doing routine maintenance on the stretch between Chinsali and Nakonde, which included vegetation control and cleaning of the drainage. However, the contract was terminated due to non-performance. The same stretch was planned for periodic maintenance to be carried out on it, which included surface dressing and drainage works. 

Mr Speaker, the tenders for the periodic maintenance will be advertised any day from now. Routine maintenance works are always suspended on any road if a contract like this one is signed for that particular road to pave way for a periodic maintenance contract because this contract includes most, if not all, the work under the routine contract. 

Sir, the routine contract will only be planned after the completion of the periodic maintenance or rehabilitation contract.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sichula: Mr Speaker, what are the immediate solutions to the problem of trucks using township roads?

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, according to the rules of this House, which prescribe the dress code, on page 69, Standing Order No (2), the official dress for a female hon. Member of Parliament shall be a formal dress, skirt, chitenge dress or suit. Is the very experienced hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing in order to wear a black jacket, red top and grey skirt, instead of a suit? 

I seek your ruling, Sir.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I can see that she is admirably well-dressed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Therefore, she is in order. The hon. Member on the Floor may continue with the follow-up question.

Mr Sichula: Mr Speaker, trucks are avoiding the potholes on the first stretch of the road from the border and using township roads. What is the immediate solution to that?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, periodic maintenance will be advertised anytime from today. The process has already started. We only need to be patient. This job will be done and the trucks will eventually start using the normal route.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, from the elaborate answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister …


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

There is too much noise coming from my right. I appeal to the hon. Members on my right to be orderly so that the person asking the question can be heard. 

The hon. Member for Chilubi may continue.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, how much money was paid to the contractor at the time the contract was terminated?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, we did not prepare for that question. However, I will get the information later and pass it to the hon. Member.

I thank you, Sir.


479. Mrs Mazoka (Pemba) asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    whether the Government had any plans to upgrade Moyo Rural Health Centre in Pemba to mini-hospital level; and 

(b)    when qualified medical personnel would be deployed at the health centre, which currently has only one nurse attending to a population of about 13,000 people.

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to upgrade Moyo Rural Health Centre in Pemba District to a zonal health centre (Referral). The term ‘mini-hospital’ is not listed in the current classification of health facilities. The House may wish to know that, for any rural health centre to be upgraded to a hospital, it is required to provide health services to a minimum of an 80,000 catchment population. Moyo Rural Health Centre is providing health services to a population of about 40,000, and is approximately 50km from Pemba District. Therefore, it does not qualify to be upgraded to a full hospital.

Mr Speaker, the establishment for Moyo Rural Health Centre, in terms of qualified medical personnel, is full, except, the positions of the Health Centre In-Charge and the Medical Records Clerk. The position of Health Centre In-Charge can be occupied by either a registered nurse or a clinical officer. Below is the detailed staff status for Moyo Rural Health Centre:

Position                Establishment    Staff in Post        Variance

Health Centre in Charge            1        0        1

Zambia Enrolled Midwife            1        1        0

Zambia Enrolled Nurse            1        1        0

Environmental Health Technologist        1        1        0

Medical Records Clerk            1        0        1

Watchman                1        1        0

Cleaner                    1        1        0

Total                    7        5        2

Mr Speaker, the positions are filled in phases to reduce the variance between the approved establishment and staff in post at Moyo Rural Health Centre and all health facilities countrywide. The Government has set aside funds in the National Budget for recruitment of health workers each year. It is expected that Moyo Rural Health Centre will benefit from this initiative.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mazoka: Mr Speaker, I have not heard the hon. Deputy Minister of Health tell the people of Moyo and me whether the number of nurses at the hospital will be increased.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the Government does not intend to increase the number of nurses because the establishment is what guides the appointment of staff. However, if the situation turns out to be that the establishment is inadequate for the purpose of the health facility, it will be up to us to review subsequent establishments.

I thank you, Sir.


480. Mrs Mazoka asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    When the construction of Demu Rural Health Centre in
in Pemba would be completed; and

    (b)    what the estimated cost of the project was.

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the construction of Demu Rural Health Centre was completed in August 2011, and is already open to the public. The structures on site include a health post, staff house and a borehole. The ministry has already posted a qualified midwife to the centre.

Sir, the rural health centre was a community-based project supported by World Vision, in which the community contributed blocks, sand and labour. It is, therefore, not easy to determine what the estimated cost of the project was, as the ministry does not have access to that information.

I thank you, Sir.


481. Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi) asked the hon. Minister of Transport, Works and Supply and Communication:

(a)    how much money was allocated to the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) for the rehabilitation of roads in Kalomo District, from 2009 to 2011;

(b)    of the total allocation, how much was disbursed to Dundumwezi Parliamentary Constituency; and

(c)    how many kilometres of the road network were rehabilitated in Dundumwezi Parliamentary Constituency.

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, in 2009, a block figure of K1,237,789,338 was allocated to Southern Province. However, we do not have the figures for Kalomo District and Dundumwezi Constituency. In 2010, K945.892,851 was allocated to Kalomo District. In 2011, K686,750,000 million was allocated to the district.

Sir, like I said, earlier, for 2009, we do not have figures for districts and constituencies. However, for 2010, Dundumwezi received K182.4 million and, in 2011, K162.2 million.

Mr Speaker, 20km of heavy grading and 5 km of re-gravelling were done on feeder roads in Dundumwezi Parliamentary Constituency, in 2009. In 2010, 12.9km of heavy grading and 1 km of re-gravelling were done. In 2011, we worked on 4km and 1 km, respectively.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, does this Government have any plan to grade the road from Nakatala to Nkandazovu? Further, which stretch of the road was done last year?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Minister answer only one of the two questions.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Member has asked two questions, I will choose to answer the second, which is a new question and, therefore, I will not answer it.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


482. Mr Chitotela (Pambashe) asked the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a)    when a bridge on Luena River, in Pambashe Parliamentary Constituency, would be constructed; and

(b)    what the estimated cost of the project was.

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication in order to refuse to answer any of the two questions that I asked, and pick up an empty question, instead of answering a question that I raised?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The ruling is very clear. The hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi asked two questions. I find it strange that he says that one of the two was an empty question.


Mr Deputy Speaker: I think that the hon. Minister chose to answer one of the two, and that is in accordance with the Standing Orders, which says you can only ask one question. So, he was in order.

May the hon. Minister continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, the Luena River or Pambashe Dambo separates Mushota and Chief Chama’s area. The tender to for a detailed design of the bridge will be advertised this month. The procurement process, after advertising, takes a minimum of four months, under normal circumstances. The consultancy services will take a minimum of six months. Therefore, it will take a minimum of ten months to have a complete design of the bridge, and the construction can only start by early 2014.

Sir, the estimated cost is one of the things to be worked on by the consultant and is one of the requirements for the terms of reference.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I think the hon. Minister has not answered the question on the estimated cost. I did not hear the answer.

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, what we are commissioning, this year, is the feasibility study, which will give us information on all these parameters, including the cost of the project.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


483. Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi) asked the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health how many shelters for victims of gender-based violence had been established by the Government, in accordance with the provisions of the Anti-Gender Based Violence Act.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Ms Kazunga): Mr Speaker, the ministry has one shelter for victims of gender-based violence in Mansa District. The ministry, in conjunction with the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), has continued with the renovations of the Mansa Place of Safety. The facility will accommodate forty victims; twenty male and twenty female. It is scheduled to open before the end of this year.

Sir, in the same vein, the ministry works hand-in-hand with non-governmental organisations that run shelters for victims of gender-based violence. One such organisation is the Young Women’s Christian Association (YWCA), which has two shelters in Lusaka, one in Kasama and another in Kitwe. In addition, under the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP), the Government envisages the construction of places of safety in all provinces.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, the victims of gender-based violence are usually traumatised, hurt and, at times, depressed. May the hon. Minister inform the House and, indeed, the nation, at large, what services are available to the people in these shelters.

Ms Kazunga: Mr Speaker, one of the services that are offered is counseling. There are also paralegal services offered by the Zambia Police Force, welfare support, shelter and reintegration into their communities.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, is this one shelter in Mansa for the whole nation or we should expect another in Mongu?


Mrs Kazunga: Mr Speaker, under the Gender-Based Violence Act, there is a programme that will take effect from 2012. I think that they will start with one shelter and, then, they will go on building two shelters in the SNDP, which is underway.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, since gender-based violence is everywhere, how are the people accessing these services in areas where there are no shelters?

Mrs Kazunga: Mr Speaker, the ministry works hand-in-hand with the YWCA and the police, which have facilities where the victims are taken.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Boma!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!


484. Mr Mufalali asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education when the Government would re-build classroom blocks at the following basic schools in Senanga Parliamentary Constituency, which were constructed in the 1930s.

(a)    Sikumbi;

(b)    Sibukali; and

(c)    Songa.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the ministry has got plans to include the re-building of classroom blocks at Sikumbi, Sibukali and Songa basic schools in the 2013 Infrastructure Operational Plan (IOP) for the ministry. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that these classrooms have become death traps …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I am sorry for interrupting the hon. Member who is on the Floor. On Wednesday, 27th June, 2012, the Order Paper had Question 369, which was asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena, and it was not answered. His Honour the Vice-President promised that he would come back to this House with an answer. Therefore, is he in order …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Member, are you referring to the questions on today’s Order Paper?

Mr Mutelo: No. I am talking about the Order Paper for 27th June, 2012.


Mr Deputy Speaker: Why are you going back to the Order Paper for 27th June, 2012?


Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President promised that he would come back to this House with an answer but, until now, he has not. Now, is he in order to keep quiet?


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! 

I can see neither His Honour the Vice-President nor his deputy, in this House, at the moment. All the same, we will bring that to his attention. 

Can the hon. Member for Senanga Central continue.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that the classrooms, which were built by the Franciscan Fathers, are a death trap to the pupils who use them?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the ministry is very aware that Sikumbi, Sibukali and Songa basic schools in Senanga have dilapidated infrastructure. However, these three schools are not the only ones. There are these schools we refer to as historic schools in all the districts. Right now, the ministry is compiling a list of these death traps, countrywide, and is giving sufficient allocation to try and help them resurrect themselves from the punishment that we have given them over the years. The neglect is regrettable but, piecemeal, we will try to meet the needs of these historic schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that they are compiling a list of these schools. I would like to get it from him that the ministry has no data and does not know which schools are historic.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! 

Do you want him to confirm what you are saying?


Mr Miyutu: Yes, Mr Speaker.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the record is there, but we want to ascertain which schools can be rehabilitated immediately. That is what I meant to say.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata):  Mr Speaker, the concern is about the pupils learning in these classrooms. Is there any immediate plan that you can put in place to protect these innocent children?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, through the Provincial Education Offices (PEO) and, also, the District Education Board Secretaries’ (DEBS) offices, we have endeavoured to do as much as we can, within our limited financial resources, to work on these schools. We know the danger, but so do we know that we are rather constrained financially. However, we are not sitting idly and looking at the situation. 

I thank you, Sir.


485. Mr Mutelo asked the Minister of Health when health posts would be constructed at the following areas in Lukulu West Parliamentary Constituency:

(a)    Chinonwe;

(b)    Washishi;

(c)    Mbangweta;

(d)    Luhume;

(e)    Lutembwe; and

(f)    Mbao.

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the Government is committed to its vision of delivering health care as close to the family as possible. In this regard, it has embarked on the construction of 650 health posts across the country under a US$50 million credit line from the Government of India. In addition, the construction of 125 health posts which was started in the year 2011 has now reached an advanced stage, with some almost completed.

Mr Speaker, the construction of health posts at Washishi, Mbangweta and Lutembwe, in Lukulu West Parliamentary Constituency, has been planned for in the 2012 Ministry of Health Infrastructure Operational Plan. This means that the construction of these three health posts wills commence this year. The health posts at Chinonwe, Luhume and Mbao may be included in the 2013 Infrastructure Operational Plan, depending on the availability of funds. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that, if they do not get started with the construction, now, they may get disturbed by floods that occur later in the year?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the ministry is aware of the climatic constraints in certain parts of the country. We shall endeavor to do what we can before the rains and, then, continue after the rainy season is over.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that eight of the 650 health posts will be located in Lukulu District, as a whole and, out of the eight, six will be in Lukulu West while only two will be located in Lukulu East because of the anticipated by-election in Lukulu West, even when the matter is still in court. Can the hon. Minister confirm this.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I can assure the hon. Member that the programme of elections has not been taken into account in locating the health posts.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister keeps referring to the 2012 Ministry of Health Infrastructure Operational Plan and promising that he is going to distribute copies of that plan to the hon. Members of Parliament. When is the hon. Minister going to distribute copies of that plan to hon. Members of Parliament?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I will do that this afternoon.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!




Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report on the Committee of Economic Affairs for the First Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 4th July, 2012.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion Seconded?

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Kakoma: Sir, your Committee was guided by the terms of reference as set out in the National Assembly Standing Orders. Going by its terms of reference, your Committee considered two topical issues namely: “the Status of Zambia’s Domestic and External Debt” and “Citizens’ Involvement in Economic Development”.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1616 hours until 1630 hours.


Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, before the break, I had just given the topical issues considered by your Committee.

Sir, your Committee also considered the Action-taken report on the previous Committee’s report. Further, your Committee also undertook a local tour to the multi-facility economic zones (MFEZs) in Lusaka, the Copperbelt and North-Western provinces.

Mr Speaker, it is my belief that hon. Members have read the report and, as such, I will only highlight the salient issues that caught the attention of your Committee during its deliberations. 

Sir, let me begin by giving a brief analysis of your Committee’s observations and recommendations, as contained in the report. 

Mr Speaker, some stakeholders submitted that Zambia did not have a debt strategy and policy to guide the country in the areas of borrowing, terms of borrowing and the purpose of borrowing and it is your Committee’s considered view that the Government should develop a comprehensive debt strategy and policy that would stipulate when to borrow, on what terms and for what purposes. Your Committee also observes that the law is not very clear on the role of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, the Bank of Zambia (BOZ) and other agencies in debt management. For example, while the loan stock, bonds and treasury bills regulations and the BOZ Act gives power to the Central Bank to undertake and manage the Government securities that are publicly issued, the law also assigns the responsibility of registering securities to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Your Committee, therefore, strongly urges the Government to ensure that the legal framework of debt management is revised and defines, clearly, the responsibilities and functions of the various agencies involved in debt management in order to avoid duplication of functions and improve transparency in the process of contracting loans. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee also observes that some loans are contracted by the Government before they are appraised and problem areas identified. For instance, the Government had contracted a loan for the Central Province Water and Sanitation Project, which was undertaken to ensure that citizens in the province had access to clean and safe water and good sanitation. However, the project, generally, lacked impact as most of the residents could not connect to the water and sewerage lines due to the high cost of being connected by Lukanga Water and Sewerage was very high. Further, sanitation still remained poor in the district as the majority of residents were found using self-made pit latrines near unprotected wells while others continued to use the bush or their backyards in the night. Furthermore, the construction of pit latrines, as part of the project, was slow and against the set criterion for beneficiaries. In this regard, your Committee implores the Government to enhance monitoring and evaluation of projects to ensure that objectives are met by identifying and resolving problem areas during the implementation. 

Sir, your Committee, further, observes that the Government lacks commitment to servicing debt. It is more inclined to paying the debts to commercial banks at the expense of pensioners and suppliers. The Government has outstanding payments to key public institutions, such as the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO), the Zambia State Insurance Corporation (ZSIC), the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), the Public Service Pensions Fund (PSPF) and water utilities across the country. Your Committee, therefore, calls on the Government to prioritise the repayment of debt to the most vulnerable sectors, such as pensioners. 

Sir, with regards to the second topic, your Committee studied citizens’ involvement in economic development. Your Committee observes that most entrepreneurs and potential business people face a critical shortage of start-up capital from financial institutions. This is a major hindrance to the setting up of economically viable enterprises since most business establishments require considerable financial resources to commence a business activity or expansion of business. Furthermore, for companies to clinch international export deals to supply a given a product, there are requirements in terms of the minimum volume to be supplied over an agreed period of time. In this regard, your Committee is of the view that the Government should introduce sustainable financing mechanisms for supporting entrepreneurship and building the capacity of small and medium scale enterprises.  

Sir, your Committee also observes that entrepreneurial skills are low in most Zambian businesses. The stakeholders informed your Committee that most players on the global market require that an entrepreneur be organised to a certain level and have some level of entrepreneurial skills before any contracts are signed with them. However, the small and medium enterprises (SMEs) do not have basic training to effectively run their businesses in a coordinated way for them to win the confidence of players on the global market.   

Mr Speaker, your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to establish a well-developed education system aimed at instilling the business and entrepreneurship spirit in the youth from an early age.  

Sir, the skills offered by technical and vocational training institutions do not match those required on the labour market. In view of the foregoing, your Committee recommends that the Government sets up training and development centres to equip the youth with various skills and trades and knowledge necessary to develop their own businesses or actively participate on the labour market. 

Sir, your Committee observes that inadequate funding to the Ministry of Information, Broadcasting and Labour to support labour-related programmes and initiatives has not encouraged growth in the skilled labour force, thus, the majority of Zambians are unable to meet requirements for higher level positions. In this regard, your Committee is of the view that there must be adequate funding to enable the Ministry of Information, Broadcasting and Labour and relevant departments to investigate violations of labour rights for Zambian employees, who may be deserving of a more prominent position, but are kept at lower levels in preference for expatriates. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee was dismayed to learn that the disbursement of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund (CEEF) was low in the rural areas. Further, it was reported that the fund was not targeted at micro-economic reform strategy in priority areas. 

Sir, the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission has, since inception, in November, 2008, approved 1,634 projects valued at K219 billion. To date, 1,439 projects (loan applicants) have been funded to the tune of K174 billion. On a province-by-province basis, the largest part of the funds has been taken up by Lusaka, at 43 per cent, followed, distantly, by the Copperbelt, at 14 per cent, Central Province, at 10 per cent, North-Western, Southern and Western Provinces at 6 per cent each, Northern and Eastern, at 5 per cent, Luapula, at 3 per cent and Muchinga, at 2 per cent. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to review the Citizens Economic Empowerment Programme (CEEP) and its objectives and strategies. Further, the CEEP should be re-aligned to target micro-economic reform strategy in priority areas. In addition, the CEEC should disburse funds evenly across the provinces of Zambia. Your Committee also notes that the involvement of political appointees, such as District Commissioners, in the disbursement of the CEEF politicised the funds and should be stopped. Therefore, your Committee recommends that heads of departments at the district level and representatives of financial institutions be involved, instead. 

Mr Speaker, in order to appreciate what was obtaining on the ground, your Committee undertook tours to the MFEZs in Lusaka, the Copperbelt and North-Western provinces. Your Committee notes the inability and lack of commitment by the Government to providing adequate water and electricity to the MFEZs in Lusaka, especially at the Roma Industrial Park and Lusaka East. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to ensure that adequate water and electricity is supplied to the MFEZs in Lusaka. Your Committee also urges the Government to address the outstanding issues that have been raised in the Action-Taken Report for the Fifth Session of the Tenth National Assembly. 

Mr Speaker, I wish to conclude by taking this opportunity to thank you for the guidance provided to your Committee during the session. I also wish to thank all the stakeholders who appeared before it and facilitated the local tours. Lastly, but not the least, let me thank the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the support they rendered to your Committee. 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move. . 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later? 

Mr Chishimba: Now, Mr Speaker. 

Mr Speaker, in seconding the Motion, which has been ably moved by the Chairperson of your Committee, I wish to comment on a few points made by your report as well as one of the outstanding issues from the Action-taken Report for the Fifth Session of the Tenth National Assembly regarding the shortage of artisan skills in the mining sector. 

Sir, with regard to the status of Zambia’s domestic and external debt, your Committee observes that there is no legislation that details the process that needs to be followed to obtain the approval of guarantees from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. In this regard, your Committee recommends that there is a need to have legislation that will put a ceiling on the extent to which the Government of Zambia can publicly guarantee domestic and external debt. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that debt is being contracted at an increasingly fast rate. Stakeholders submitted that the external debt stock for 2011 stood at US $1.9 billion, indicating an increase of 11.54 per cent from 2010. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government ensures that the debt contracted is invested in projects that will yield the highest economic returns in order to offset the fast rate at which debt is being contracted and ensure that it remains sustainable.

Sir, your Committee observes that there is low participation of citizens in the financial sector and activities on the stock exchange. The majority of financial institutions in the country are owned by foreigners. This is more so in the banking sector, where few Zambian-owned banks, such as Investrust Bank, are listed on the Lusaka Stock Exchange (LuSE). However, a good number of Zambians’ presence is seen in the microfinance and insurance sectors. The capital requirement involved in this sector is quite huge, making it difficult for Zambians to effectively participate. On the other hand, where opportunities have been available, Zambians have failed to run these institutions. Some good examples in the Third Republic are Prudence Bank and Commerce Bank. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government devises programmes to impart financial literacy in citizens to enable them benefit from economic development in the financial sectors and activities from the stock exchange.

Mr Speaker, your Committee heard from one of the witnesses who appeared before your Committee that Zambian companies are not considered for major contracts and supplying in the mining industry. Mining firms prefer foreign companies to local ones. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government stiffens laws that are already there to safeguard our local industries. One of the ways Zambians can have ownership in the mines is by buying shares in them. However, many of these mining companies are not listed on the stock exchange. Your Committee further observes that there are too many statutory payments, permits, licences and procedures in the process of setting up a business. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government comes up with a one-stop shop to simplify the process of setting up businesses.

Sir, another matter that I would like to bring to the attention of the Executive is the shortage of artisan skills in the mining sector and, in order to address this issue, the Government needs to revise the curricula in the vocational training institutions and re-introduce apprenticeship programmes of which, I must mention, I was a beneficiary.

Sir, before privatisation, mining companies used to run trades schools that offered different skills needed in the mining industry. These trades schools were run effectively, thus, giving our youths the skills needed to be employed in the mining industry. If the Government puts up measures that will make mining companies establish trades schools, our country will see a decline in youth unemployment. The expertise that used to run these institutions is readily available to assist and show how the system worked then in the mining industry. The Government should put in place a policy that will make mining companies start to train local people in fields where on they depend expatriates. Expatriates should be given a period to work and, thereafter, start to train the locals to take up those positions after the period the expatriate is serving comes to an end. This will create more job opportunities in the mining industry. Your Committee also recommends that the Government encourages mining firms to offer scholarships in the short term to address the shortage of artisan skills as there are many unemployed youths who would take up the opportunity.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the Chairperson of your Committee for the manner he presided over the affairs of your Committee during its deliberations and the session in general.

Mr Speaker, I beg to second.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to make a contribution to the most important topic that underwrites the state of our nation, in terms of where we are, from the time that we attained independence, and the amount of wealth, in terms of natural endowments, that has been extracted and the little that has been retained in our economy. This is as result of inadequacy in policy formulation on our part.

Sir, this report is divided into about three sections. Let me start with the first, which deals with the financial sector and just how the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government managed our debt portfolio. There is testimony to the excellent work done by the MMD in managing our economy.


Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mulusa: I would appreciate it if the PF members listened and got some wisdom on how to pick up one good piece of work and build on it.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol allows us to accumulate debt of up to 60 per cent of our gross domestic product (GDP). The MMD Government left it at 10 per cent, which was excellent. I think that we should appreciate where good work was done.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Sir, the 10 per cent debt-to-GDP ratio gives us headroom of 50 per cent, which we can use to sustainably acquire what would go to underwrite the competitiveness and the resilience of our economy.

Mr Speaker, the state of our economic and social infrastructure is lamentable, yet that is what can underwrite the competitiveness of our economy. Remember that, in terms of production of goods and services, here, in Zambia, the cost of transport, as a component of the total cost of production of goods and services, is at 50 per cent when, in China, it is at 8 per cent. When goods are transported from China to Zambia, the ratio is 14 per cent. That is why our goods and services can never be produced competitively.

Sir, we can use this 50 per cent headroom to continue with the strategy of the MMD of borrowing for targeted projects that have an economic return. That way, our economy will move forward. I really wish to thank my party and my elder brothers seated in front, here, who were in charge of the economy.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, let me now move to the section that is negatively affecting the popularity of the PF Government. At this point, I wish to congratulate the two newly-elected Howards for ensuring that the performance of the PF is actually reflected in the rate of winning the by-elections.

Sir, the performance is at 33 per cent. They scored one out of three, which amounts to 33 per cent. That percentage is an ‘F’. You have failed lamentably, but have an opportunity to turn your lamentable performance around. You are the first party, in the history of this country, to perform so badly so soon after winning elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, your Committee …

Mr Bwalya: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order. However, the Motion on the Floor is very clear and you have guided this House several times. I am worried about the nature of debate taken by the hon. Member on the Floor.

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you, now, come to the point of order.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, the cross-country nature of the debate is worrying. Is Hon. Mulusa in order to start campaigning and bringing election issues, when we are debating an economic report in the House? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member should take those observations into account as he debates. 

You may continue, hon. Member.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I will ensure that, as I debate, I take their miserable performance into account.


Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, your Committee visited a number of areas, among them the North-Western Province, to look at the state of our economy and the beneficiation …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member on the Floor has the right to debate. Allow him to contribute to the best of his ability. The Chair always frowns upon those who specialise in debating while seated. Unfortunately, they are identifiable and I hope you will not tempt the Chair to name you. 

Hon. Member, you may proceed.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I am new to Parliament and the only lessons I can learn are from the way the PF dealt with the MMD when they were in the Opposition. So, I am not very much off the mark.

Sir, your Committee visited the North-Western Province, and I feel that it could have gone further to give us an answer as to the question of where the wealth of the nation lies. I feel that not a lot of work was done in that aspect because, if your Committee had gone to the mines, it would have discovered that mining activities, today, are out-sourced. You have different companies doing different activities; one doing extraction, the other carrying out transportation works, another doing crushing and yet another doing marketing. Which are these companies? We are told by the Jesuits that K7 billion worth of copper was sold, last year, at 80 per cent of the cost of production. We are talking of 20 per cent net profit. That is where we picked up our K500 million in taxes, while the other 80 per cent, which is K5.6 billion, accounted for costs of production, operations and administration. The question is: Who was paid that K5.6 billion? This is where the wealth of the nation is going. Who is doing the extraction and transportation? It is a South African company. The marketing is being done by a company based in Switzerland.

Mr Speaker, we remain with nothing because the little that we pick up are the small salaries that are paid to our workers and, because these operations are out-sourced and on contract, they equally sign back-to-back contracts with their workers, meaning that they do not qualify for the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) contribution. This means that these investors are not assisting us build those savings that can help us in funding infrastructure.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, I only rise on serious points of order and this particular one borders on the privileges of hon. Members and their Constitutional rights.

Sir, according to the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, Article 46 (2):

“Appointment to the office of Minister shall be made from amongst Members of the National Assembly.” 

Sir, Article 47 (3) states that:

“Appointment to the office of Provincial Deputy Minister and Deputy Minister shall be made from amongst Members of the National Assembly.”

Mr Speaker, according to these Articles, the Republican President is empowered to appoint the Cabinet, Provincial and Deputy Ministers from amongst hon. Members of Parliament. Secondly, according to Standing Orders and Privileges, no one can threaten, persuade or influence any hon. Member to vote on any Motion in a particular way against their will.

Sir, is the MMD in order to threaten its hon. Members appointed as Deputy Ministers with expulsions in order to persuade them to vote in a particular way on any future Motions, while we know that, for sure, the President of the MMD, Mr Nevers Mumba, was appointed Member of Parliament and even Vice-President when he was President of the National Christian Coalition (NCC), but was not expelled? The late President Mwanawasa appointed him, even after he had lost an election as a presidential candidate, and was only fired after he started undermining the late President by holding press conferences at Government House, which had never happened in the history of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, is the MMD in order to threaten elected hon. Members of Parliament with expulsion in order to compel them to vote in a particular way against their will? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious and short ruling is that, while you are right, in stating that the Republican President has a right to appoint hon. Ministers, as well as Provincial Deputy Ministers, from among hon. Members of Parliament, it is extremely difficult for the Chair to rule on the other leg of your submission as you have not placed evidence before the Chair. 

May the hon. Member, please, continue.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I was talking about the implications …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Please, proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Mulusa: … of our current mining arrangement …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The ruling given is very clear. If evidence is not provided, do not expect the Chair to come up with a ruling. 

The hon. Member may proceed.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I was talking about the implications of the economic arrangement in our mining sector, where most of the activities have been out-sourced not to Zambian companies, but to foreign ones and the majority of the wealth is actually going to sustain other economies.

Mr Speaker, let me give a specific example of Levy Junction Park, on whose construction about US$164 million was spent and 17 per cent of that amount was earned by Zambian companies and Zambian professionals. This demonstrates the extent to which the Zambian economy is sustaining jobs in other economies and we cannot continue like this. Nonetheless, I am glad that the Government agreed to adopt the report of your Committee, which urged it to craft an economic and human development strategy. I thank my colleagues on your right for that. This will enable the Government to reverse the imbalances in our economy. We are not going anywhere if our economy keeps exporting job opportunities and importing unemployment, which is very unsustainable. My wish was for your Committee to have dwelt a lot more on that issue. 

Mr Speaker, I also want to comment on our tourism sector. This sector brings in very little earnings to our country because, first of all, the assets that underwrite the economic activities in the sector are foreign-owned. Even the marketing is done by foreigners. Tourists that come to Zambia pay for tourist packages in Germany, the United States of America (USA), South Africa and many other countries. If you see how tourism in Zambia is marketed in South Africa, you would be shocked. The theme used is, “You would think you are in heaven”. Pictures of the Royal Zambezi and Zambezi Sun hotels in Livingstone are used for tourist packages that are bought is South Africa. After paying for these packages, tourists are sent here, but the money remains in South Africa. The only money that tourists leave here are the tips to workers, and that is if they are generous enough to do so. On the other hand, the only money that comes back into Zambia is the shortfall in terms of operational costs between the amount that is collected from local tourists and the amount that is needed to pay workers and everybody else involved in tourism.

Mr Speaker, Zambians need to be empowered. I walked into Lumwana Mine looking for a transport contract and I was told that it had already been given to Zalawi Haulage Limited for twenty years. Lumwana Mine had actually guaranteed the acquisition of trucks for Zalawi Haulage Limited to get that contract. Where are we as Zambians?


Hon. PF Members: It was done by the MMD.

Mr Mulusa: Do not talk about the MMD. Let us be forward-looking. That is what will sustain you in power.


Mr Mulusa: If you keep talking about the MMD …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Address the House through the Chair to avoid exchanging words with those who are seated. 

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, certain things must be said straight away, but I will speak to my colleagues on your right through you.


Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, those blaming the MMD should realise that there are two phases of the MMD’s rule. There is the first ten years, which has a lot of blame, and there is the last ten years of building. In the last ten years, our economy started growing from 2 per cent, in 1999, to 7.5 per cent, last year.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mulusa: The architects of that lamentable first ten years of the MMD’s reign are Dr Guy Scott, Mr Michael Sata and everybody else who left us.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear! Tell them.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I dare say that, when we rid ourselves of that baggage, we started building the economy.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: And it grew.

Mr Mulusa: Yes, the economy grew. The only reason we were kicked out of power was that we could not explain properly to the Zambian people that we needed to grow the resilience of the economy before achieving economic development. There is a fundamental difference between economic growth and economic development.

Dr Kazonga: Yes!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I see that I only have five minutes left and, therefore, I would like to give time to my colleagues to also debate.

Sir, I thank you very much and urge the PF …

Hon. MMD Members: Continue.

Mr Mulusa: No, thank you very much.


Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I beg to support your report and thank you very much.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, as I support the report of your Committee, allow me to raise a few issues, the first of which is that of financing small businesses for our people, specifically, the initiative called the CEEF that the Government put in place. Evidence has now shown that what Zambians lack is not just finances to do business. The CEEC was established and money was given out. At the moment, that initiative stands suspended because the people who got money are literally failing to pay back.


Mr Hamududu: Some of them are in the PF.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Debate through the Chair, please.

Mr Hamududu:  Maybe, the majority of them are.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The Chair is aware that there is always movement from one side to the other and vice-versa, but continue debating.


Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, the issue of high interest rates charged by commercial banks is true. The money availed through the CEEC had lower interest rates, but people still failed to pay back. What is the problem? I think we need to look beyond access to finance if we want to empower our citizens. The Zambian economy is very small and most of the key players, such as the mining companies, are not linked to the local business people. Therefore, our people borrow money, but have very little market to sell to and make their business viable. The reasons most of the businesses that borrowed money from the CEEC failed are many. 

Mr Speaker, I think that we must all agree that a parastatal or Government agency cannot run an empowerment fund or give out loans and there has been enough evidence over the years. We had the Youth Empowerment Fund and the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund, but they both failed. I was very disappointed, at one workshop, when I heard the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport say that he wanted to run a youth fund. He should not do that. That is not feasible because of the heavy hand of the people in Government and politicians. If he does that, money will just be given to PF cadres, as was the case during the MMD’s rule. These cadres will get the money, but not pay back. Since there is enough evidence to show that the Government cannot run an empowerment fund, we need to give it to professional fund managers, whom we can a commission for them to run that fund and let them decide which projects are viable. My colleagues on your right should mark my words. If they decide to run such a fund, this year, or the next, they should call me after three years and we will see if the same thing will not happen. 

Sir, what we need to do, now, is realise that we are failing to come up with a model that is sustainable. With the evidence of the co-operative movements, such as the Credit Union and Savings Association of Zambia (CUSA), we have continued to run the same model that is failing, yet nothing has changed. The same invisible hand of the Government will interfere and loans will go to people who are connected to those in Government and they will not pay back. So, access to these funds is based on patronage, not viability of businesses. 

Mr Speaker, while we say that our people need money to run businesses, only viable businesses must be financed. You cannot finance a bad business plan. Only those who have enterprising and viable plans must be given money from the empowerment fund. People must not queue up to say that they do not have money. Who said that money can run a business? A business is based on a viable idea and only professional fund managers can identify which business is viable. Otherwise, if the Government continues to give out money, it will fail to empower citizens. I think that the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry was right when he differed with the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport, who thinks he can dish out money. Doing that just makes the country broke. That is why the Government must have a plan.

Hon. Oppositions Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Hamududu: He is late and we are moving on. 

Sir, the next issue I want to raise is on the mining sector, vis-à-vis job creation and the MFEZs. This country is endowed with natural resources, the main ones being minerals, such as copper, cobalt and coal. Why our country has remained poor amidst all this wealth is because of the matrix we are using. You cannot just invite investors to come and dig your copper and claim that they are investing US$4 million or US$4 billion to open up a mine. They are investing US$ 4 billion to dig your copper and take it away and, of course, pay little wages to a few workers. If we do not change the mining model in this country, Zambia will be one of the poorest countries in Africa and the world because we have allowed mining companies to rape the country of its resources. 

Sir, Botswana has been built basically from livestock and diamonds. They have diamonds, which have been used to go into equal partnership with a company called Debtswana. When enough mineral wealth was made, they shared the profit through dividends and taxes. Botswana, which was one of the poorest countries in the sub-region, has risen to become one of the richest countries in terms of per capita income. Today, they can do anything for their people. They have a good mining regime. In this country, we have swung from complete nationalisation to complete liberalisation. That is the mistake we are making. 

Mr Speaker, another country, Chile, has no windfall tax, and I will not talk about the windfall tax because I do not want to be accused of being one-track minded. Chile owns one of the biggest mines called the Corporacion National del Cobre de Chile (CODELCO). It is one of the mines that are highly technical in copper mining in the world. When Anglo-American Plc left the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM), the Government should have taken over the mine. When your Committee on Economic Affairs toured the KCM, a few years ago, some of the engineers were interviewed and they informed your Committee that Zambians should have, at least, been given one mine to run. Even Konkola Deep Mine should have been run by Zambians because the prices are good. The Government has come out of mining completely. The Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investments Holdings (ZCCM-IH) only owns 15 per cent. We must change the ownership arrangement in the mines. We must increase our stake if we cannot run one big mine so that we use it as a yardstick, but we are, now, being cheated that the investors are recovering money they have invested and this is because there is no yardstick used. In Chile, no mine can cheat the Government because it is also a player.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

The word ‘cheating’ is unparliamentary.

You can continue.

Mr Hamududu: Yes, something like that.


Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘cheating’. 

Mr Speaker, if we do not change the current mining regime, unemployment and poverty will not be dealt with in this country. Yes, you will have a lot of investment. Last year, the mining companies exported copper to worth US$6 billion, but what jobs did they create? Mining is highly mechanised. So, you will not create jobs in the actual digging of the dust being exported. By the way, basically, the companies are exporting dust. We see trucks carrying dust, which is mixed in a pan and exported with all the commingled minerals that you are not aware of. 

Sir, countries are fighting for wealth and no investor will come here and be fair to you. You must be fair to yourself and this can only be done if drastic measures are taken. Even the late President of Libya, Muammar Gaddafi, who was not even a democrat, used oil for the prosperity of Libya, although there were human rights abuses. He did much better than the democratic governments because he had a regime to benefit his country. Again, when oil was discovered in Norway, the country effected an unorthodox tax regime. The same should have been the case for the copper in Zambia. We should have our own tax regime. These investors who come into this country must either abide by that or go away. After all, what they need is copper. Other investors will come. The Anglo-American Mining Corporation left, but Vedanta came. We can, actually, pass a law, for example, that there will be no minerals exported without 70 per cent value addition. Let us leave out the issue of the windfall tax. Once this is done, we will have vertical diversification. This issue of concentrating on agriculture and tourism is not good enough because we have to diversify even the mining sector. 

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Mr Hamududu: Of course, I understand that but, if we do not have the downstream linkages in the mining sector, …


Mr Hamududu: No, there is upstream and downstream. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Members should allow the hon. Member for Bweengwa to debate.

You can continue, Hon. Hamududu.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, at the input level, …


Mr Hamududu: … we need the Zambian people to supply what is realisable in this country. There are many inputs, such as spare parts, in the mines that can be produced in this country. Therefore, if we do not come up with policies, for example, to disallow the importation of things that can be produced here, we will not create jobs. The actual mining cannot create jobs because it is highly mechanised but, if we have these forward and backward linkages, we will create many more jobs. If we come up with policies for value addition, there will be many more jobs in the mining sector than even in agriculture and tourism. 

Mr Speaker, this country, alone, with a population of thirteen million, with heavy mining activities using a proper model, can create wealth and jobs for the people. However, what is happening, now, is that we are exporting jobs to South Africa, which uses copper to products that are being exported, yet the copper is coming from here. Here, we have most of the minerals that can be used to make the necessary inputs that are needed in many industries around the world. However, we are used to supplying raw materials for countries that are cleverer, like South Africa, and they are making the finished products, exporting and prospering more than the mining country. This is happening because of our policies. Investors who will not agree with our terms can go. Others will come. Genuine investors, who go into equal partnership on mutually beneficial arrangements, are the ones we need. These people are clever. Therefore, we must match them up and know what we want. The mining sector has been abused because we do not have the right policies to get the best benefits from it.

Mr Speaker, your Committee raised the issue of skills. Skills cannot be developed in a vacuum. Some time back, this country used to have skills.  Without backward and forward linkages in the mines, how do you train workers? There are no industries on the Copperbelt that complement copper mining and, if you develop skills, these skills will be redundant. The skills must be interfaced with practical application.  

Mr Speaker, talking about lack of skilled manpower, most of these people who were trained in the 1970s and 1980s, have gone to neighbouring countries. In Namibia, for example, the General Manager of the Chamber of Mines is a Zambian. There are also Zambians at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) in the United States of America. They are doing much better. Do not say Zambia has no skilled manpower. The countries that have proper policies have employed Zambians. If you put in place the right framework and, of course, also allow dual citizenship, Zambians in the Diaspora will come back. After all, Zambia needs more people with dual citizenship. There are no jobs, here, but they can bring the skills and the right investors and, of course, remittances. 

Mr Speaker, this country has enough investors in the Diaspora, who can go into partnership with genuine investors to come and invest here. We can facilitate this by giving them dual citizenship. When I heard that this Government was against dual citizenship, I was very shocked. We are reading from different pages. The dual citizenship clause in the Draft Constitution is intended to facilitate investment remittances to this country. 

Mr Sakeni interjected.

Mr Hamududu: You are a good man.


Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, your Committee also touched on the issue of road infrastructure. Two days ago, Hon. Mwiimbu, Hon. Mooya and I travelled to Monze to attend the church service for the people who died in the road accident. There are many trucks along our very narrow roads taking equipment to the mining areas and very little is coming back to maintain this infrastructure. This has been a black week. So many people have died on our roads for the very few benefits we are getting from the mines. If these mines were paying good money to the Treasury, we could already have had a dual-carriage way from Livingstone to Chililabombwe. That can be done in five years. Some hon. Ministers are even going there to talk about corporate social responsibility. You are begging in your own country. His Honour the Vice-President or an hon. Minister should not talk about corporate social responsibility. It is immoral for these people to talk about that because it means that you are asking for it. You should enact a law and get the money legally, so that you can use it to provide the roads. You are begging for your corporate social responsibility?


Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, corporate social responsibility must be discussed by schools and clinics, not an hon. Minister, who can get tax and make the roads. In five years, we can have a dual-carriage way from Livingstone to Chililabombwe, Chingola to Solwezi and other parts of the country. These things are realisable.

Mr Speaker, last year, I debated the issue of toll gates. Eventually, we might not have the money because copper mining might come to an end. Therefore, the issue of toll roads is very important. We must not think that our people cannot pay toll fees. Many countries, which are very poor, such as India, have used this model. I have travelled the breadth and width of India and there are toll gates everywhere. Everyone is paying. It is just about K5,000 each and you will be contributing to the sustainability of the roads. The PPP arrangement that was left by the MMD is something worth developing because we do not know our fiscal status in the years to come. We may not have the money to maintain the roads, but the toll roads become a sustainable way of going forward. I think that this issue must be considered very seriously. There is no one who manages to put fuel in his or her car who can fail to pay a toll. All of us must contribute to the maintenance of our infrastructure. 

Mr Speaker, I wish I had more time to debate but, in conclusion, there are three things that developed countries have done, where we can have the highest returns. We must have enough money to invest in free education, health and capital formation. If these are done, the country becomes attractive. You would not need to give tax incentives to attract investors. They will just look at the state of your infrastructure and the health and education of your workers. These are the things that are, in the long run, attracting investors, not these tax incentives you are giving. The MFEZ initiative that you are also pushing is not the best arrangement because it is more of investor-driven. It must be designed by us and come on our terms. These MFEZs are purporting to be putting in money, but this money is being raised from our copper. They are enjoying lower taxes. They make the money from copper and they are coming to say that they are investing US$1 billion. What is US$1 billion? This country can make more money than that. No one can threaten us over US$1 billion. They are recycling the money because people around here cannot see. They raise your money in Chambishi and, then, go across the road and say that they are investing in the MFEZ. That is your money.


Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, people are laughing. Let us have our own indigenous blue-print policies. People must come on our terms. They have done that in Botswana and South Africa. Who are we to open our country for everyone to come the way they want and you think that is investment? 

Sir, I can see, my mulamu is saying that I must slow down. 

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I support the Report of your Committee.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this chance to debate your report. I will speak, not talk, to your report. 


Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, we have seen a number of people talking to your report. This is Parliament, where we are supposed to speak. That is why we elected the Speaker.

Mr Speaker, I am going to speak on four topical issues. The first is the purpose and utilisation of the external loans that were contracted. On page 5 of your report, there was the loan of US$14 million that was contracted in 2007 for the works on the feeder roads on the Copperbelt. When the hon. Member of Solwezi Central stood and started praising the MMD, I was shocked and wondered whether he was talking to the report or speaking to it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, in 2010, money was borrowed, but it was not utilised. At the time that the money was borrowed, it was supposed to do more than 700km of the roads. By 2010, because of the fluctuation, the distance had reduced to 210km. That is why the people of Zambia could not tolerate the MMD anymore.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I fail to appreciate the debate of my colleague, who is a member of the committee. As a member of the Committee, he is supposed to be defending what they have submitted on the Floor of this House. He is, now, raising issues that are outside the report. Is he in order?


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

The serious ruling of the Chair is that the hon. Member speaking is, definitely, out of order. As a member of the committee, he is there to defend the report. 

You may proceed.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, I will continue defending your report. 

Sir, I will turn to the issue of economic empowerment. 


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Let the excitement die down.  

Proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, from the Action-Taken Report of 2010, the Committee recommended that Kankoyo re-located because of the sulphur content in that area, where no plant would grow.  Your report is still maintaining the reason the people of Kankoyo could not accept to continue with the then Government, which refused to re-locate them from Kankoyo to a better place. 

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, let me, now, talk about the ‘dollarisation of your report’.


The Deputy Chairperson: Continue with dollarisation of the report.


Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, on page 41, your Committee received the recommendation that, in indeed, Zambia is the only country that has allowed people to trade in foreign currency. This matter has been coming up in several fore and the PF Government listened to the cries of the majority of Zambians. We refused to close this case. We said that the Government should respond to the dollarisation problem and the PF Government listened to the cries of the people. The able Ministry of Finance and National Planning went ahead and issued Statutory Instrument No. 33. Today, to my shock, so many people, including witnesses who submitted to your Committee, are criticising the Government. The world over, there has never been a country that has grown, which depended on using foreign currency.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, for example, in Zambia, if we had more than 100 people of Mr Liato’s nature and the Government decided to disburse the currency, I would presume, as a junior economist, that people would have exerted pressure on the Zambian currency by buying the foreign currency and keeping that in their homes. Now, the Government thought that we should not allow people to use United States Dollars in Zambia …

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, ...


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mufalali: I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to wear those emblems on his jacket in this House? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that the Speaker is unable to see the emblems from where he is seated. However, if the emblems are there, the hon. Member knows what to do. 

You May proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, I was saying that, in case we had more than a hundred people who buried money, like Mr Liato, …

Mr Chipungu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I am sorry to disturb my colleague, who is debating very well. Is he in order to drag the name of Hon. Liato, who is not here to defend himself? I need your ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that the hon. Member on the Floor should desist from debating cases that are in court. When matters are in court, in Latin, we say that they are subjudice. Take that ruling into account as you debate.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, I thank you for that guidance. 

Sir, in case we have many people that could have buried money, ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: ... now that the Government has decided to rebase the currency, I presume, they would exert pressure on the dollar, since they would like to exchange their kwacha for foreign currency. The kwacha would have depreciated drastically against the dollar. I thank the able Government of the PF for bringing the statutory instrument that bans people from trading in dollars. That is why some people are crying. They know that they have kept a lot of money in dollars. They will be forced to change the dollar …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let me remind the hon. Member on the Floor that he is a member of this Committee. He should bear in mind, as he debates, that he is not supposed to contradict what is in the report. I hope he will not invite me to make a ruling, again, on his manner of debating. 

You may proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, to defend what I am talking about, let me quote.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The ruling must not be modified in any way. Move to your next point, if you have one.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, I am quoting from page 41. Paragraph three reads,

“Your Committee observes that, other than just quoting prices in dollars, some institutions were demanding settlements in hard currency, thereby exerting pressure on the exchange rate. It is, therefore, requesting update on the statutory instrument”

Mr Speaker, if we can …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, allow the hon. Member to make his point. He is about to.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, that is the badness of certain people who debate while seated. Let me quote a statement by the President of Uganda:

“If democracy cannot put food on the table, then it is not a good democracy.” 

So, as much as we are practising democracy, it must be a democracy that will put food on the table. 

Mr Speaker, there is a proverb in Tonga to the effect that you cannot keep a cow that cannot give you milk. You must have a cow that can give you milk. Even here, when the PF Government decided, after an outcry that the dollar ... 


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chitotela: Anywhere you go, Mr Speaker, you will not be allowed to pay using foreign currency.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Allow the hon. Member to make his point. I think that he is coming up with a very valid point. 

You may proceed, hon. Member.


Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, I thank you for protecting me.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, when we have people who come from the East …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Enjoy the protection and debate.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, I want to move to the MFEZs. It was a sad story when we visited Lumwana Mine. Before I go very far, the hon. Member for Solwezi Central talked of going to Lumwana Mine. The previous Government sold Lumwana Mine to Barrick Gold, including the shares that were held by the ZCCM-IH, both surface and underground rights. Zambia, currently, has no control over Lumwana Mine and it is the same case with Trident Mine in Mufumbwe.

Mr Mulusa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, we have been guided to debate with facts. Lumwana Mine was almost 100 per cent owned ... 


Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I am building my point. Lumwana Mine was 95 per cent owned by Equinox.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

What is your point of order?

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, the Government only owned a small percentage of the company. Is the hon. Member in order to lie and mislead …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The word ‘lie’ is unparliamentary.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, is he in order to mislead the House by stating that Lumwana Mine was sold by the Government, when the previous Government was not the majority owner of the company. I expect a very serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that the hon. Member should take these observations into account and stick to the report as he continues.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, we listened to the cries of the people of Lumwana. Hundred per cent of both surface and underground rights were sold to Barrick Gold. Zambia does not have any shares in that mine. The same applies to Kalumbila Mine in Mufumbwe.

Mr Speaker, according to the report, the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of Lumwana Mine is refusing to develop the Lumwana MFEZ. He is saying that that it is not his business, and that his core business is mining. However, the former Government and the mine had signed an agreement. The mine was even given a tax rebate because of the pledge to develop the MFEZ. I have wondered why Zambia has not developed for forty-seven years. The reason is because we send talkers, instead of people who speak from facts.

Mr Speaker, as I speak, my Committee members and the Chairperson of the Committee will agree that Barrick Gold is asking the Government to find alternative land from the land that they have been given. They are saying that the generation of electricity, pumping of water and construction of roads is not their business. That it is the Government’s job.

Mr Speaker, with these submissions, I support the report.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, let me start by saying that, at times, it is saddening to be reminded that we are the ones who did not or failed to do this and that each time we are seriously considering the affairs of the nation in this House. The reason we are on the Opposition side of the House is to remind the Government of the areas of concern. We could have failed to do those things but, now, it is the current Government’s turn and it must do them. So, we must mention them. We should not keep quiet just because we were once in Government.


Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, my concern in this report is on the dismal participation of Zambians in the development of this country. This started right before independence. 

Sir, when you look at the constraints that have caused Zambia not to develop, you will find that, amongst all the African countries, Zambia was the only country that had very few educated people. Worse still, apprenticeship in Zambia only started in 1959. Before then, the people who governed us had not wanted any Zambian to catch-on on how to do business or pick up any skill. So, we started on a very bad note. To date, we still have the same situation that has created a problem for us as far as participating in the development of this country.

Mr Speaker, one of our biggest problems is the lack of an indigenous bank. I am not talking about the Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) which, although it was a Government Bank, was not indigenous. It did not take into account the suffering people of this country. It did not take into account the brilliant blacks of this country. We need a Zambian indigenous bank that will look at indigenous people and empower them with the funds to run businesses.

Sir, it looks as if, right from independence, it was a sin for a Zambian to be rich; like the only people who are supposed to be rich are non-Zambians. However, the way other countries have skated around this problem is to have an indigenous bank, where a person like me can proudly and confidently stand before somebody and ask for money to build up the enterprise that they want to run.

Sir, if you look at the much-talked about South Korea, they invested a lot of money in their own people, not foreigners. In fact, they only opened to the outsiders in the 1980s. From the 1950s to the 1980s, they only trusted the indigenous people, who were the ones they gave the money to so that they could start businesses. For example, Hyundai and Samsung were, initially, purely South Korean companies. There was no outside influence.   

Mr Speaker, we have a problem in this country. I fear because I do not know whether the new Government will continue on the same path. There are very few people in Zambia whom you can call rich. I see some people showing off around but, when you go under them, there is nothing.


Mr Simbao: The reason is that the banks in this country cannot trust a black person like me. Whenever I go there, I have to have a million reasons I should borrow money. I do not know what else I should prove myself to be for them to give me the money. As a result, none of us has gone anywhere. We talk in this House, but only outsiders get rich in this country.

Sir, therefore, when you look at this report, you will see how poorly Zambians have participated in businesses. It is just in useless areas like trading. The things that we are trading in are being made by other people and we are there proudly trading. When you look at me, nothing of what I am wearing has been made by Zambians. Only my body was produced by my parents.


Mr Simbao: Nothing else is Zambian.

Mr Speaker, we have been happily saying that we are independent; fooling – oh! Sorry for using that word – misleading ourselves. 

Sir, if no Government will come up to address this problem, this country will, first of all, end up with graduates who will not go anywhere. Just look at the number of brilliant people who cannot expose their brilliance because they are either in bad jobs or on the street. Yet, when you look at the people who are rich in this country, some of them have never been to school. It is just because they have had the luck to get the money.

Mr Speaker, the foreign nationals who are running business in this country, like the Chinese, have banks in their country that give them a lot of money to run business in Zambia and we are accepting it. This country has a lot of money – maybe, that is why the PF Government does not want to get the windfall tax – but I do not know where this money is going.

Sir, next time, the Committee should mention companies run by rich Zambians in a report like this one before it comes out. We should not be jealous of the people who own such companies. We should support Zambians so that they become rich, not foreigners. Why should we just be happy to support foreigners to be rich? This is because we are so jealous of each other. This Government has an opportunity to make Zambians rich and there are Zambians who want to be rich.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kambwili: Simbao for president!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

I know that we got our freedom in 1964, but the freedom to shout the way others are doing is not in order.

Could the hon. Member proceed.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I, therefore, commend the report of your Committee for touching on important issues. However, they can only be practical if, from now onwards, we allow Zambians to own mines. The same way that we allowed the whites to run Lumwana, we should have found Zambians who could have done it. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Now, Shoprite has shown us how to run shops. The PF Government should, therefore, bring up Zambians who can run such kind of retail shops. We have got all these businesses, but look at the people running them. It is the foreigners who are either Managing Directors or owners. What is so special about these people? Is it because they are whites, Chinese or Indians? No. We want this to change. If the other governments failed, this one must do it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: If this Government fails to do it, they are also on their way out. Maybe, the UPND must try.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

The Deputy Minister of Finance National Planning (Mr Sampa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind up debate on this Motion. 

Sir, I wish to, first of all, thank the Committee, the Chairperson and its members for the thorough and well-researched report. This was, definitely, money well spent. I thank all those who have contributed to the debate on this important Motion, which hinges on most economic aspects of the country. 

Mr Speaker, I thank Hon. Simbao for his positive contribution. His concern for an indigenous bank is, indeed, valid, but I wish to remind him that it was his Government that sold ZANACO.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah! You have started, again.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, the PF Government is looking at The National Savings and Credit Bank (NSCB). We are trying to see if we can turn it into a bank, list it on LuSE and invite Zambians to buy and own it. 

Mr Speaker, I thank Hon. Hamududu for his usual good contributions, more importantly, on the issue of the culture of not paying debts. I think that is the main problem we have in Zambian. Unfortunately, it is not only at individual the level, but also at the Government level. The MMD Government got us to reach an extent where the debt went up to 50 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP). In 2007, we managed to come out of this situation through the Highly-Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) initiative. The PF Government found that the previous Government was not good at paying their debts on time, especially, to suppliers and pensioners. For example, if they thought that the people who supplied the prisons were PF, they would not pay them. There are debts that have been outstanding for years. Only companies that were seemingly owned by their sympathisers were being paid. The PF Government is not doing that. 

Mr Speaker, any Government in the world is supposed to be the best payer of debts. If a Government cannot honour its debt when it falls due, that Government is no existent. That is, when there is war, it is not viable for anybody to lend to them. This Government has always been a good Government, but the people who were in power before were deciding not to pay debts. As a Government, we pledge to pay all debts when they fall due, regardless of who is owed and whether they support another party. As long as that debt was contracted, we will pay. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: As you saw, in the Budget, we put some funds to dismantle debts. There are people who have not been paid for many years and we are trying to pay them slowly.  

Mr Speaker, I also want to comment on Hon. Mulusa’s debate. I think that it is wrong to say 50 per cent of GDP is sustainable because it is, actually, very unsustainable. You cannot borrow to those levels. Then, you will be talking about countries like Ethiopia. The sustainable level is from 20 per cent to 25 per cent. That is the internationally approved rating. Twenty-five per cent is the figure that everybody can think of. At that rate, you will not be over-borrowing. At the moment, I am happy to say that, as a country, we are looking good in terms of the total debt.  We are only about 13 per cent indebted to external lenders in 2011. In 2005, the MMD was at 50 per cent of the GDP. In 2007, HIPC brought it down to 9.2 per cent. Last year, the MMD pushed it up when it was desperate to win elections. It went and borrowed quickly for the projects so that it could win votes. In this vein, they pushed it up to 10.9 per cent. That is the external debt. Now, we are at 10.7 per cent.

Mr Speaker, let me emphasise that borrowing is not bad as long as you can pay back. As a country, if you want to grow, you will need to borrow. The money we realise from taxes is only enough for recurrent expenditure, such as the salaries and day to day payments. If we have to develop the infrastructure, revamp the railway line and work on all the infrastructure projects, we require billions of dollars. Now, where do we get the money from? We can only go to the outside world and borrow, but be within the 25 per cent maximum threshold. As a Zambian, I am happy to say that, at the moment, this country is looking very good to the whole world. It is better than most European countries and the United States of America. All the international lenders are trouping to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, offering us debts because everything is looking good about the economy. I thank the MMD for leaving a good foundation.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, you left inflation at single digit. The reserves were good and the economy was growing at 6 per cent. The only problem the MMD had was that those economic gains were not being given to the Zambian people. They were just on paper. This Government wants to build on those gains and give them to the ordinary people on the streets of Zambia. 

Mr Speaker, let me move to taxes on mines. On page 25 of the report, there was a concern that the mines tax holidays needed to be reduced from 10 per cent to 5 per cent. Indeed, we share that concern. Unfortunately, those contracts that were signed cannot be altered overnight. The MMD Government gave some of these contracts that …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my left! 

Allow the hon. Minister to contribute.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, some of these mines were sold for a song. There is one mine that will never pay tax at all. The contract is such that, as long as they are making losses, they will not pay tax. Even when they start making profit, they will have another five years without paying tax on the profit. All what this mine needs to do is keep declaring losses and it will never pay tax. It will get our copper, but never pay us even a Ngwee. Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do because we cannot change it. The last time we changed one, you saw what Fitch Ratings did. So, we are bound by what they signed and we can only work on the new contracts. 

Mr Speaker, page 31 of the report makes reference to the PPP model and the project on toll gates; that we should engage companies to build roads and put up toll gates so that people can pay. Especially referred to is the road from Chingola to Solwezi. There is a lot of traffic there. The distance should only take about forty minutes to drive but, now, it takes about six hours because there is too much traffic. On the issue of PPPs, we found many projects in the pipeline left by the previous Government. Most of these projects, when we looked at the records, were connected to people who were close to State House. Naturally, we did not trust this project. When we looked in the ministries, if it is a project on roads, you would find that there were no records in the ministry, which was supposed to own that project. What we have done, at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, is to send all the projects back to the ministries so that they can be reviewed and, then, sent back to us, after that the record is straightened.

Sir, 42 of this report, actually, asks the Government to de-dollarise. When we have gone ahead and implemented, the same people who are recommending this are, now, opposing us, simply because this new legislation is bearing fruits for this Government. It has reduced to the exchange rate from K5,500 to K4,500. The kwacha appreciated by 10 per cent. In this House, hon. Members were attacking this Government that our currency had depreciated and that this was a result of a lack of confidence in the PF Government. Well, now, I am happy to say that the appreciation of the kwacha means that there is investor confidence in the PF Government. 

Mr Speaker, page 41 addresses the issue of externalisation. I wish to state that we are working on another statutory instrument to see …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Your consultations are too loud.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I wish to state that the externalisation mentioned on page 41, calls upon the Government to ensure that the mines do not externalise their export sales. We are working on Statutory Instrument No. 34, which will require that export transactions be done using letters of credit and, after sixty days, to allow for the transportation of these goods, the money should come in a Zambian bank account and be held in an escrow account for another thirty days, so that funds do not just come in and go back because, then, we will balance what has gone out: the copper that has gone out and the money that is in the Zambian accounts. Therefore, be warned. That is coming, very soon, and it is in advanced stages.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of financial education, I think it was raised. I am happy, today, that the Bank of Zambia launched a programme sponsored by the DFID, which I presided over. Funds are, now, available to include financial education in the primary, secondary and university curriculum. All of us, including politicians, need education in financial matters because the world is always evolving. I wish to say that we are working on the law as well so that we can attract more participants on LuSE because there is not much activity there. So, we are communicating with all the investors, who include the mines. We might need to legislate, but we are, currently, negotiating with them to see if they can all invest. 

Sir, it was also pointed out that some of the international banks that have been here for years have never given any shares to the Zambians. As a result, they keep getting the profits and externalising them. So, there is a need to come up with legislation about it.

Mr Speaker, finally, let me just state that, since this is an economic report, the summary of the progress that this Government has made, in terms of developing the nation, from September, 2011, to date, has been in maintaining the inflation rate on single digit, from 7 per cent to 6.7 per cent. I earlier talked about the exchange rate. When the PF Government came to power, it was K4,700, but it is, currently, at K4,500.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: Last year’s economic growth rate was 6.2 per cent, but, this year, it is expected to reach 7 per cent. So, we have carried on from where the MMD left off and we are improving on everything. When we came to power, the minimum wage was K250,000 but, currently, it is K550,000, meaning that there is more money in people’s pockets. So, I commend the hon. Minister of Labour, Hon. Shamenda, and this Government for ensuring that the people of Zambia are being paid what they deserve.

Mr Speaker, in some parts of this report, it calls for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to put funds aside so that the Ministry of Labour can engage inspectors, who will protect Zambian workers by ensuring that they are paid the minimum wage. At some point, there will be a need to come up with legislation so that employers paying their employees below the minimum wage may even be jailed for ten years.


Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, as a warning to all the hon. Members, they have to upgrade the wages of their maids, guards and gardeners to K550,000.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Proceed, hon. Minister.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, even if you asked your workers to leave, the law states that you would still need to calculate their dues on the scale of the new minimum wage. Historically, the most affected are farm workers. These are, in most cases, exploited by the local business people, who pay them K100,000 per month. I urge the Provincial Ministers to engage the labour administration experts to inspect the farms in the Mkushi area and the Southern Province. Unfortunately, my uncle, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central, is not here, but he should also be inspected to ensure that all his workers are paid accordingly.


Mr Sampa: He is my uncle, by the way, because I was raised in Kalomo and, so, there is no offence meant. 

Mr Sampa: Finally, …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

When you continue interrupting him, it will cause him to continue saying ‘finally’.


Mr Sampa: This is the grand finale. We, the PF Government, take full notice of all the recommendations from the contributors. We will take all the submissions into consideration and give them the full attention they deserve. 

Sir, again, I thank your Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to wind up the debate on this report. 

Sir, this report has generated a lot of interest. All the hon. Members that have contributed to this debate, including the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, have supported our report. I just want to urge the hon. Deputy Minister to work very hard to actualise the recommendations contained in the Action-taken Report for 2010, which he referred to, as well as the latest report for 2012 which, we hope, will receive the Government’s reaction in the next sixty days. For those who are still concerned with the benefits from the mining sector, I would like to refer them to your Committee’s report for 2010, which is a masterpiece on the taxation of the mining sector. This is where Hon. Simuusa, who was a member of your Committee, and Hon. Kambwili supported the windfall tax. The report addressed different types of taxation, including windfall tax. So, I would like to urge all the hon. Members to support your report.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.


The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1812 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 13th July, 2012.