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Tuesday, 29th November, 2022
Tuesday, 29th November, 2022
[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]
House met at 1430 hours
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
______
ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER
ICT PRIORITY AREAS COUNTRYWIDE
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I inform the House that the Ministry of Technology and Science, in collaboration with the Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA), undertook an exercise to determine areas that do not have access to telecommunication services countrywide. The Ministry has since made available the report to the concerned hon. Members of Parliament.
Hon.Members are encouraged to study the report and, where necessary, indicate priority areas and inform the Ministry of Technology and Science directly. The deadline for submitting the priority areas is Friday, 2nd December, 2022. Hon. Members should ignore the date indicated in the letters sent to themearlier.
Thank you.
______
MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE
MR C. CHIBUYE, HON. MEMBER FOR MKUSHI NORTH, ON MR MWIIMBU, HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON MKUSHI RESIDENTS LIVING IN FEAR OF IMPORTED CADRES
Mr C. Chibuye(Mkushi North): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.
Mr C. Chibuye:Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance I am raising is directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. In the absence of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, this matter is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President, being the Leader of Government Business in the House.
Madam Speaker, the people of Mkushi are living in fear following the behaviour of some cadres who are in the district who were imported from other areas, especially the Copperbelt, during the last by-election. They have not gone back to their respective places. These cadres are terrorising and beating up every person that they find wearing a Patriotic Front (PF) t-shirt in the district, especially in Itala Compound.
Madam Speaker, yesterday, a woman was stripped half-naked and thecommunity reacted to that, and there was commotion. That commotion led to seven members of the community being apprehended by the police, and they were thrown in the cells. This morning, there was another commotion by the youths in Mkushi, specifically the youths from the United Party for National Development (UPND). They went to the District Commissioner’s office and locked it. Two were apprehended. To our surprise, the two have since been released by the police, but the seven community members are still in the cells. The police are waiting for instructions from higher command.
Madam Speaker, the people who stripped the woman half-naked used knives. The people in Mkushi are living in fear now. They cannot walk with their heads high. They cannot walk freely. They are fearing these imported UPND cadres from –
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr C. Chibuye: Let them question, but this is happening in Mkushi.
Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence in this matter. The people of Mkushi are living in fear.
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr C. Chibuye:They cannot move freely.
Hon. PF Members: Quality!
Madam Speaker: Thank you. Hon. Members, as we raise these matters of urgent public importance, let us remind ourselves that we have Votes that we have to consider but we do not have much time. We have only twelve working days. So, please, let us raise matters that –
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Members, are you going to talk? Should I allow you to talk first and then I can deliver a ruling?
So, hon. Members, as you raise these matters of urgent public importance, be aware of what the criteria are.
Hon. Member for Mkushi North, from what you have raised, it appears that you are aware of who is doing this. Why not report them to the police, instead of raising the matter as a matter of urgent public importance because it does not even qualify? It does not meet the criteria.
MR KASANDWE, HON. MEMBER FOR BANGWEULU, ON MR MPOSHA, HON. MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, ON ERRATIC WATER SUPPLY IN SAMFYA
Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.
Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance, directed at the–
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Members, I do not know what is so exciting today. Can we listen to the matters that are being raised.
Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, the matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation. The people of Samfya, especially those living in the central business district (CBD) and surrounding areas, have had no water for the past seven days. We already have problems of the lack of medicine in hospitals and the lack of fertiliser.
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr Kasandwe: So, the issue of erratic shortage of water will really bring a lot of stress on the people. We have the hospital that has no water and we have boarding facilities that have no water.
Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.
Interjections
Madam Speaker:Order!
Hon. Members, I am going to give a warning if you persist debating while seated. You can easily go and follow the proceedings outside.
Hon. Member for Bangweulu, again, that matter that you have raised does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance.
The hon. Member for Petauke Central may take the Floor.
MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON MRS NALUMANGO, HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, ON LOOMING HUNGER IN PETAUKE
Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.
Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance.
Madam Speaker, before I go ahead, let me make it clear to the people that Standing Order No. 135 states that a matter shall be considered urgent and of public importance –
Madam Speaker: Order!
Laughter
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke, please, just go straight to your matter of urgent public importance.
Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your guidance. I wanted to do that because people think that I do not go through the Standing Orders, or that I just raise matters without guidance.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Mr J. E. Banda: Let me go ahead, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, the matter is directed at our mother, Her Honour the Vice-President. Last year, in Petauke Central Constituency, about 5,000 plus farmers never collected inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). They did not finish collecting inputs under FISP. Further, their harvest was very poor due to the effects of climate change. Right now, there is too much hunger in Petauke. Njala yatichita ngako. Onani nayonda no yonda.
Hon. Members: Meaning?
Mr J. E. Banda: Meaning we are too hungry; I have even lost weight because of hunger.
Madam Speaker, I am asking Her Honour the Vice-President whether the New Dawn Government can be lenient and allow the good people of Petauke to buy maize from the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) so that at least, we can be assisted because without that, we will die of hunger.
I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, again, that is a matter that you can easily approach Her Honour the Vice-President on. You can also approach the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) for it to donate some maize if, indeed, people are dying of hunger. Even if a statement were rendered on the Floor of the House, would that take away the hunger from the people? I think you should be more proactive by taking the necessary steps to ensure that people are fed, instead of just raising a matter which has no solution.
The hon. Member for Kamfinsa may take the Floor.
MR KANG’OMBE, HON. MEMBER FOR KAMFINSA, ON MRS NALUMANGO, THE VICE-PRESIDENT, ON LACK OF FARMING INPUTS IN KATOKA MEMA FARMING BLOCK
Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.
Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity you have given me to raise a matter of urgent public importance, on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa Constituency.
Madam Speaker, I direct this urgent matter at Her Honour the Vice-President. On 21st November, 2022, I had an opportunity to tour various crossing points in the constituency, together with a team that was assembled from the Office of the District Commissioner (DC) under the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU).
Madam Speaker, during the tour of an area called Katoka Mema Farming Block, we discovered, once again, that the works on the bridge have not been done. However, that is not the issue that I wish to raise today because you already guided on the issue of the bridge.
Madam Speaker, I wish to bring to the attention of Her Honour the Vice-President that food security in Katoka Mema is threatened because our farmers have not received any farming inputs to begin farming. Today is 29th November, 2022 and the farmers are saying, “Even if you fix the bridge, hon. Member of Parliament, we still do not have farming inputs.”
Madam Speaker, I direct this matter at Her Honour the Vice-President, and I seek her serious indulgence.
Madam Speaker: Thank you. The matter of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) and the delivery of farming inputs has been a subject of several ministerial statements, several questions and several matters of urgent public importance. The hon. Minister of Agriculture has been before this House on several occasions to clarify this issue. So, even if you raise a matter of urgent public importance at the moment, I do not know what answer you expect from the hon. Minister of Agriculture.
Again, it does not even qualify as a matter of urgent public importance because if a statement is not rendered, what calamity or catastrophe is going to be suffered immediately? Are we going to lose a life immediately if nothing is done?
Again, on confronting the issues of hunger, I think let us deal with them with the relevant institutions. It is the best way to sort out that problem than to raise it as a matter of urgent public importance and a statement is rendered. I am sure people are not going to eat a statement. If you take steps and go to the Vice-President’s Office or the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) and present your challenges, I am sure food will be delivered to those people and you would have solved the problem.
The hon. Member for Mwinilunga may take the Floor.
MR SAMAKAYI, HON. MEMBER FOR MWINILUNGA, ON MRS NALUMANGO, THE VICE-PRESIDENT, ON ROAD TO MWINILUNGA BEING IMPASSABLE
Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.
Mr Samakayi: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President because the situation is becoming a disaster.
Madam Speaker, the road to Mwinilunga is impassable right now, and it is reported that the bus operators are planning to boycott going to Mwinilunga because of the bad state of the road, and this has affected commerce in the district.
Madam Speaker, is the Government planning to put stopgap measures to ensure that the potholes on the road to Mwinilunga are filled so that we have commerce and communication and people moving from Mwinilunga to other districts? Is the Government doing anything to ensure that people’s transportation continues and is not affected negatively?
Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. I am sure the hon. Member for Mwinilunga is always in this honourable House. The hon. Member will recall that similar concerns have been raised in relation to other roads which have become impassable because of the rain and in the same manner, commerce and trade have been negatively impacted. My guidance has been that this is the state of most roads in the nation. The roads, of course –
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order!
Hon. Members, you are distracting me. The state of the roads is bad and that has negatively affected commerce and trade. Even people’s movements have been affected.
Again, even if a statement is rendered on the Floor of this House, the roads will not be rectified like tomorrow. We need to engage the relevant ministries and appeal to the Government to do something. This matter is a national problem. It is not only in relation to Mwinilunga but many other roads. I can give the example of the Mkushi or the Serenje/Nakonde Road, the Sesheke Road, Katunda Road, Kabwe –
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: You can hear from the response of the hon. Members that the problem is countrywide. So, we just need to appeal to the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, if he is here, to ensure that something is done. Of course, it depends on the funding from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. You are aware that at the moment, we are processing the Budget. So, if we clear the Budget quickly, maybe, funds will be released to start addressing these issues.
The hon. Member for Chienge may take the Floor.
Madam Speaker, the repossession of the Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) by the Zambian Government offers this country a rare opportunity to gain a foothold in the mining industry. The MCM is 100% owned by the Zambian Government. This mine needs urgent recapitalisation to break-even and start making profit.
Madam Speaker, with copper prices projected to keep rising beyond US$10,000 per metric tonne, we need to massively invest in the mines and revamp copper production to meet the demand. This is a strong business case for the New Dawn Government to do the following:
- recapitalise Mopani through external borrowing sources such as capital markets, i.e. Eurobonds; and multilateral and bilateral Institutions. If the Government is borrowing billions of dollars to build roads and schools, surely, it can borrow billions of dollars and invest in economic sectors such as mining, and Mopani specifically;
- list Mopani on the Lusaka Stock Exchange to raise capital and give citizens a chance to own a stake in this mine. This will enhance citizen participation and beneficiation from mining activities;
- refund outstanding Value Added Tax (VAT) refunds to unlock liquidity at the mine;
- stop importing copper concentrates from the Democratic Republic of Congo;
- invest massively in copper ore mining to feed the smelter in Mufulira;
- create local jobs in the mining industry through recapitalisation;
- let the Industrial Development Cooperation (IDC), through the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH), demonstrate that State owned enterprises (SOEs) can be engines for industrial growth by running Mopani as a viable locally-owned mining giant; and
- scrutinise the cost structure at Mopani and get rid of all operational excesses and the vices embedded in transfer pricing deals between Mopani and Glencore.
Madam Speaker,I am aware that Government is looking into divesting shareholding of the mine; hiring a financial advisor; and conducting an evaluation to ascertain the value and financial status of the mine, as part of the solution to the challenges the mine is facing. However, the question is: What happens thereafter? The Government should tell us what its intentions are; whether it will look for another investor or maintain Glencore, as we have heard in the media. This will be unacceptable considering where we are coming from.
Madam Speaker,as we debate this Motion, one of the fundamental questions that arise is whether Zambians have the capacity to efficiently and effectively manage mines. The answer to this is an unequivocal ‘yes’. This position is based on the fact that after the Anglo-American Corporation, which was the majority shareholder of the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) left citing low copper prices. Zambians managed to run KCM effectively for close to two years until Vedanta Resources Limited successfully acquired majority shareholding in 2004.
Madam Speaker, in addition, the ZCCM-IH, which is now the majority shareholder in Mopani, has a management team with vast experience and expertise in the mining industry. The ZCCM-IH has been in existence for over 50 years as an investor in the country’s largest mines, the energy and financial sectors. Therefore, I would not be wrong to conclude that the ZCCM-IH has the necessary human capacity to run Mopani.
Further, many Zambians from various disciplines, both locally and internationally trained, have been working in the mines where they have acquired enough technical knowhow to run the mines. It is in this regard that we conclude that Zambians do have both the requisite knowledge and technical capability to run MCM or, indeed, any other mining operation in Zambia.
Madam Speaker,the Mopani story demands a new thinking that looks into the future of electric cars and the rising demand for copper and cobalt. The Government should urgently recapitalise Mopani and address the operational and financial challenges the mine is facing or we risk turning it into a loss-making mine ready to be sold for a song.
We have been through such a road before and have lost out. The United Party for National development (UPND) Government should learn to put new wine into new wine skins. The state- of-the-art new copper smelters we have seen in Chambishi, Mufulira and Chingola and in the North-Western Province are all a result of forward-thinking investors who want to make a fortune from copper while the boom period lasts.
Madam Speaker, we cannot afford to be spectators during this economic boom. We want the UPND Government to walk the talk on their rhetoric of economic transformation. It is not enough for the Government to say it will be making electric car batteries while sitting on a loss-making copper mine. The logical thing to do is leverage what we have by recapitalising Mopani which produces both copper and cobalt.
Madam Speaker, the production of electric car batteries requires being well thought-out because it requires lithium, which we do not have.
Madam Speaker, in view of the numerous development benefits that will accrue to the country as a result of the recapitalisation of Mopani, allow me to conclude by calling upon all hon. Members to support this progressive Motion so that we can support the Government in transforming our mining sector for the benefit of our people.
Madam Speaker, with these few words, I beg to move.
Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the privilege to second this Motion. Before I go deep in my debate, the people of Mufulira Central also join the nation in mourning the departure of Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, who is being put to rest today.
Madam Speaker, I want to thank the Mover of the Motion Hon. Pavyuma Kalobo, Member of Parliament for Wusakile, for ably moving this Motion.
Madam Speaker, as the Mover has mentioned in his debate, Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) is owned by the people of Zambia, through the Zambia Consolidated Copper MinesInvestment Holdings (ZCCM–IH). It was a very wise decision by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government to bring the ownership of Mopani back to Zambians through the ZCCM-IH. That move alone protected 15,000 jobs on the Copperbelt; directly under Mopani, about 6,000 and,indirectly, through the contractors that do business with Mopani, 9,000 jobs were protected.
Madam Speaker, the importance of the copper mining sector cannot be over emphasised. We know that Zambia is the second copper producer in Africa to the Democratic Republic of Congo. Copper itself contributes to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP); to forex earnings; job creation and revenue for the Government.
As the pronouncement has been made by the President, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, we are targeting to be producing 3 million tonnes of copper in the next nine years. In order for us to achieve that, we need a fully functional Mopani Copper Mines that is well capitalised.
Madam Speaker, currently, as a country, we are producing just below 800,000 tonnes of copper. This is way below the potential that the country can produce through the various copper mines.
Madam Speaker, generally, as the mine contributes so positively to the economy of this country, Mopani,in itself, plays a significant role as a mining company.
Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, the acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security said that the police have intensified patrols. Currently, police officers in Lundazi District do not have a vehicle. How have they intensified the patrols especially that some of those criminals are very dangerous and are murder suspects?
Mr Mulenga: Madam Speaker, indeed, we are managing that concern. However, intensified security is not only achieved by having a vehicle but also, through various techniques such as deployment of security personnel with various training mechanisms that they are using.
Madam Speaker, on the aspect of security, the police service in Lundazi District is working in collaboration with the stakeholders, who are the business community and the public in covering the various remote areas.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, my second question is boarding on the issue of people who are terrorising the constituencies. There is a family that lives in an area called Islamic, just at the crossing point when going to Mwase. One of the thieves went to that family and borrowed a motor bike and a phone, which he later ran away with. This is terrorising the people who are in the district. What is the Government going to do about that family which has been left in awe after someone ran away with their motor bike and a phone?
Mr Mulenga: Madam Speaker, on a daily basis from the day of the escapee’s incident, the police in the district in collaboration with the police at the Central Police Station in Lusaka are tracking the criminal activities that are taking place. On a daily basis, we are recording nil on the security breaches that are happening.
Madam Speaker, however, I take note of that separate incident. I want to encourage the people in the district to be reporting any form of criminal activities that are taking place so that it is brought to the attention of the ministry and the police in the district.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, in view of the Business that we have before us, let us make progress since was a specific question to a constituency. I have seen that there are so many people who have indicated, on the order paper, we still have a lot of work to do. So, we will proceed to the next item which is the maiden speech by the hon. Member for Kwacha.
Mr Charles Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, I rise to break my silence in this honourable House by presenting my maiden speech.
Madam Speaker, allow me to presenting my written speech. First and foremost, I wish to express my sincere thanks to you, Madam Speaker, for according me this rare opportunity to deliver my maiden speech in this august House. From the outset, I would like to express my profound thanks and gratitude to the people of Kwacha Constituency for granting me this rare opportunity to represent them in Parliament.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Charles Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I am humbled by the confidence and trust that the people of Kwacha Constituency have in me. I promise to do my best and not disappoint them. I will truly be their servant, both in this august House and in the constituency, given that they already played their part by voting for me on 21st October, 2022, when I emerged victorious.
Madam Speaker, my landslide victory in Kwacha Constituency by-election could not have come without the unwavering support, care, and love from my family. In this vein, allow me to thank my wife and children, who relentlessly toiled with me throughout the various electoral processes. I will forever remain indebted to my family for its steadfast support and care, both inhard and goodtimes.
Madam Speaker, allow me to also thank most sincerely, our party President, who is also the Republican President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, who took time from his busy schedule to come and drum up support during my campaignsin almost all the wards. His support during my campaigns is highly appreciated and I would like to ask our Heavenly Farther, Jehovah God to continue blessing our beloved President.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Charles Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I also extend my thanks to our caring mother, the Republican Vice-President, who also took part in giving solidarity during my campaigns. I salute you , Madam Vice-President.
Madam Speaker, I will be failing in my duties if I do not appreciate the massive financial, material and moral support, which I received from my party, the United Party for National Development (UPND). In addition, allow me to pass my personalised thanks to the hard working Secretary-General, Hon. Batuke Imendaand the campaign team, comprising the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Art, Hon. Elvis Nkandu and his counterpart at the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, Hon. Paul Kabuswe, as well as the former Mufulira Central, Member of Parliament, Hon. Chibanda, who worked tirelessly as a commendable team.
Hon. PF Membersleft the Assembly Chamber.
Interruptions
Mr Charles Mulenga: Madam Speaker, further, gratitude goes to the UPND provincial leadership headed by Hon. Elisha Matambo, the Copperbelt Province Minister, the UPND Kitwe District leadership, Kwacha Constituency Leadership, party officials at the Southern, the North-Western, Muchinga, Lusaka and the Northern provinces for the much needed support that was rendered to me. To all these, I would like to say, a big thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Madam Speaker, Kwacha Constituency is one of the vast constituencies in this country, with an estimated population of over 150,000 people. The constituency is divided into two segments namely, the urban and the peri-urban. Arguably, Kwacha Constituency is the least developed in the district despite being led by full Cabinet Ministers in the previous Governments. The constituency is faced with many challenges which include poor road infrastructure, inadequate education and health facilities, as well as support staff to manage these institutions. The dilapidated road infrastructure especially in the peri-urban set up namely Chantete, has made it extremely difficult for any form of development to take place. Evidently, farmers in this area are negatively affected by the poor road infrastructure thereby, facing big challenges when transporting their farm produce to markets.
Madam Speaker, in terms of health, the people of Kwacha Constituency are forced to walk long distances to seek medical care because the nearby facilities are in deplorable state. For instance, matters relating to maternity care can only be accessed at Buchi Clinic in Nkana Constituency, which is about a few miles away from the people of Kwacha Constituency. In this regard, we need more health facilities in my constituency and there is a need to upgrade the existing onesso that they can include maternity services.
Madam Speaker, allow me to also emphasise that there is a serious need for more schools, both primary and secondary, in my constituency. When there are more schools in the constituency, we will avoid endangering our children’s lives who walk long distances to access education.
Madam Speaker, furthermore, despite my constituency being located in the heart of the city of Kitwe, ranked the third largest city in this country, there are numerous water and sanitation challenges in the constituency. Many residents stilldo not access clean drinking water, even when the water utility company, Nkana Water and Sewerage Company, sits right in theconstituency. Many residents of Kwacha Township and Bulangililo Compound live in a hazardous environment because many sewer pipes have broken down, putting all residents at risk of waterborne diseases.
Madam Speaker,further, fifty-eight years after Independence, some people in the constituency like in Kwacha Compound still use pit latrines. This shows that our sanitation system requires our attention as soon as possible.
Interruptions
Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!
Standing Order 69 (2) is very clear that a member may not interrupt a member making a maiden speech. It is a maiden speech; it is the first time the hon. Member is speaking. So, please, let us support by listening to the hon. Member.
May the hon. Member for Kwacha, continue.
Mr C. Mulenga:Madam Speaker, I also want to highlight the fact that there are high poverty levels in my constituency, due to the high unemployment rate among the residents. This has resulted in a high crime rate in the constituency. The tantameni syndrome, which was created by the previous leaders, has resulted in a common belief by most residents to wait for handouts as a way of survival. A lot of work needs to be done in this area, in order to change the mindset of many people in the constituency.
Madam Speaker, our Government, which is headed by our hard-working President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, has already set a firm ground, through the allocation of a sufficient Constituency Development Fund (CDF). This will in turn allow us together with my constituents, to undertake various developmental programmes.
Madam Speaker, as a new Member of Parliament, I understand very well, the clear mandate that the people of Kwacha Constituency have given me, and I will endeavour, with God’s favour, to take the much-needed development to all corners of the constituency. Of course, concerted effort and support from all the residents of this beautiful constituencywill be required, if meaningful development is to be realised.I, therefore, agree with the African proverb that says that, “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together”.
Madam Speaker, I also want to make an earnest appeal to the Opposition that we should now join hands in uplifting the standards of our underdeveloped constituency, which currently looks like a war zone. The campaigns and elections are over. Let us now work together for the good of the people.
Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I promise the people of Kwacha Constituency that meaningful change is coming in the constituency, following their resolve through the ballot, to give me and the New Dawn Government the mandate to preside over their affairs. I will remain resolute and devoted to serving the people of this constituency.My prayer is that God should grant me wisdom and strength as I offer my service to the people of Kwacha Constituency.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!
Madam Speaker: Order!
I see an indication from the hon. Member for Chama South, or it is the Leader of the Opposition? What is the –
Laughter
Madam Speaker: Somebody is seated in a wrong place.
_______
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
VOTE 46 – (Ministry of Health – K16,080,373,574).
Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended on Friday, I was urging the Government to look into the issue of hospitals. There is only one Government hospital in Kalabo District and the distances are vast. So, the people of Kalabo are crying for two mini-hospitals so they can have access to doctors.
Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Flying Doctor Service visited us and the people appreciated this because the doctors reached the far-flung areas and the communities received the services. So,I urge the ministry to continueprovidingflying doctor services. In Kalabo,that was the first time the Zambia Flying Doctor Services provided the necessary services inthe remote areas. So, I suggest that the budget for the Ministry of Health should be disbursed in totality to enable those good doctors to visit rural areas andprovide a service to the people.
Mr Chairperson, I urge the Ministry of Health to create strong hubs. For example,it can establish a hub in the district and medical supplies can be delivered there so that the clinics can be able to acquire drugs within the shortest possible time than them being served by the province. This is because the distance from the province to the district and clinics is long and this delays the process of the drugs reaching the beneficiaries.
Mr Chairperson, finally, I urge the ministry to look into the transfer of workers. You find that in rural areas like Mitwi, workers do not stay long. We urge workers to be committed and serve people accordingly because there are few workers who stay there. The provincial and district management should also make sure that they supervise the rural areas. The workers stay for a long time without being supervised. Further, when they go to get their salaries, they stay away very long. In short, this is creating an absence of medical staff.
Mr Chairperson, with these few words, we support the budget. I thank you.
The Deputy Chairperson: I must remind the House that you started debating this Vote on Friday and five people have already debated. So, I will just allow two more people to debate.
Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing the people of Solwezi East to contribute to the debate on this Vote. Let me make a few comments, since this Vote is very important and is about health matters.
Mr Chairperson, I see the increment from K9.2 billion allocated in 2021 to K12.4 billion in 2022 and now this Vote has an allocation of K16.1 billion. This is the way to go and I applaud the Government for considering health as priority, as seen in these increments in the allocation. According to the five programmes under this budget, primary health services have been allocated K6.4 billion, which is good. Hospital services have been given K8.1 billion, central technical services have K13 million, human resource development with K236 million and management and supply services with K1.3 billion.
Mr Chairperson, as we support this Vote, I want to draw attention to the issue of mini- hospitals. With this allocation, we believe that the Ministry of Health shall take key note of mini- hospitals. If you look at the mini-hospitals dotted around the country, they have been constructed with prefabricated materials. If you look at the cost that has gone into these mini hospitals, it is really something that one has to question because of the kind of material that has been used. It is not durable. It cannot even last for more than twenty or thirty years.
Therefore, we are saying that with the allocation that we have in this Vote, the Ministry of Health needs to really prioritise the aspect of building hospitals or clinics with good quality materials so that they are able to last long.
Mr Chairperson, by the way, we just need to have hospitals designated as level one, two and so on and so forth, as opposed to mini-hospitals. This is because it is really meaningless to have this concept of mini-hospitals. So, the people of Solwezi East are saying that they really need to consider strong durable materials so that we have hospitals that are able to serve even the generations to come. So, even as we support this Vote, we need to consider having hospitals as level one, two and so on and so forth.
Mr Chairperson, the second point is that the people of Solwezi East are saying that we need to revisit the issue of the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA). With the transfer of NHIMA to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, it needs to be revisited. I think the position of NHIMA under the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is not going to help us. We are saying that NHIMA is about health and health matters need to be related to the hospital. Therefore, we are saying that with this allocation, can we please consider revisiting that aspect of NHIMA and its mandate.
Mr Chairperson, in its current form, NHIMA is not serving the good people of this nation because at every hospital or clinic that you go to, you are just given a prescription. When you go to a facility that is NHIMA accredited, you are told a drug cannot be given because it is expensive. One then has to go looking for the drug elsewhere. One would question: What is the purpose of NHIMA?
So, we really need to reconsider the issues of NHIMA. Besides, if there is need to reform, it is actually going to be something beneficial. If you look at the rural areas, such as my area which is predominantly rural, there is nothing to point at that these are the benefits or these are the people who contribute towards NHIMA. So, NHIMA tends to be for the elite people in town. We need to bring in reforms so that NHIMA can be meaningful and beneficial even for the people in the rural areas.
Mr Chairperson, in addition, we are saying that after this allocation, we need to see an improvement in the supply and procurement of drugs. With those few words, the people of Solwezi East are saying that we support this Vote with those key note considerations.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Mr Mabumba (Mwense): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity. I have few things to say.
Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister needs to note that some of the important things under this ministry, as highlighted in the budget, are to strengthen public health, increase access to quality healthcare and strengthen integrated health information systems. When we look at the hon. Minister’s budget, there has been an increase, but what is important is that all of us are looking forward to the hon. Minister to provide leadership. The ministry that the hon. Minister is heading is very sensitive and has many stakeholders. You may call many of them as cartels or whatever, but those are stakeholders who need to be managed, regardless of the name that is assigned to them.
Mr Chairperson, we, therefore, look forward to the hon. Minister providing leadership. I will begin by saying that the money that has been allocated to the hon. Minister isK16 billion. It may sound a lot, but it might not be sufficient because when you look at the budget for drugs and medical supplies and the budget for infrastructure development, this may not be enough. However, when the hon. Minister took office, she needed to recognise that governments are based on continuous improvement, therefore, there is no need to look at the past. There is the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) Scheme and when you look globally or even in the region, many of the countries have developed national health insurance schemes because of inadequate provisions in their national budgets. This becomes an alternative financing mechanism for the healthcare delivery system.
Mr Chairperson, based on what the previous speaker said, the structural allocation and nomenclature for NHIMA, in its current form, is not correct. We are of the considered view that the location of this institution is not right. It is, therefore, upon the hon. Minister and her hon. Colleagues in Cabinet to deliberate on NHIMA. We not saying the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security cannot provide leadership. However, that was an alternative financing mechanism for the Ministry of Health.
Mr Chairperson, why should we find it elsewhere when that is a cash cow for additional funds to the budget from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning? The national health insurance system is there to provide additional financing for the many things that the hon. Minister needs to deal with, such as issues of medicines and infrastructure. Therefore, I think the number one priority going into 2023 is to try and lobby the presidency and hon. Colleagues in Cabinet so that the NHIMA scheme should revert to the ministry. The hon. Minister should be able to provide leadership and we, in this House, should be able to hold her accountable.
I think this is what the previous Government had in mind. We want the hon. Minister to lobby so that the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) reverts to where it is supposed to be so andif it is to provide a quality health service system in the country, it needs that alternative financing.
Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister may be aware, medicine and medical supplies is one issue that has been debated in this Chamber, not because hon. Colleagues here want to politicise the issue, but the fact of the matter is, even in the many tours that the hon. Minister has taken across this country, there is a loud cry that there are no medicines in our hospitals. Therefore, like we are arguing, this is why NHIMA was provided to be an alternative mechanism to finance some of the gaps that the National Budget cannot finance.
Therefore, Mr Chairperson, we look forward to the hon. Minister providing leadership and managing the contractual relationship as regards medicine and medical equipment supply. We need to take into account the fact that if not well handled, transitionswill begin to find these shortages of medicines and equipment in hospitals. It is our humble prayer that the hon. Minister will provide leadership in ensuring that the transition from the previous administration to the current one, is managed so that we can have medicines and medical supplies in our hospitals.
Mr Chairperson, it does not help Zambians to have an incremental budget, yet when one goes on the ground, he/she does not find medicines and medical supplies in our hospitals. I am sure my other colleagues have spoken about this particular issue. This is why we are looking forward to the hon. Minister providing that leadership. Furthermore, I am sure that the hon. Minister has inherited health posts and hospitals that were incomplete. Again, we want to pray to her that she provides leadership. The K1.4 billion that has been provided in the budget may also not be sufficient…
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabumba: …but we look to her providing leadership. Seeing that this money may not be sufficient, why then does the ministry want to go and begin constructing new hospitals when other hospitals are yet to be completed? So, again, on that score, we are looking forward to the hon. Minister, with the experience that she has had in Government, ensuring that the ministry completes all these inherited projects including Mwense District Hospital in my constituency. A lot of work has been done, and if you visited that hospital, you would realise that almost 85 per cent of the work has been done and only a few things are remaining. So, it is our considered view that from the K1.4 billion, if I am correct,to health infrastructure support budget that has been provided, part of that money is going to be used so that it goes to our hospital in Mwense District.
Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister may be aware that the Government has employed 11,000 or 12,000 health workers. Again, like I asked the hon. Minister a question, if she looks at one of her pillars; Strengthening Integrated Health Information System, she will see that sometimes we do not have ghost workers in Government. It is because workers are transferred from one health post or one district hospital to another. However, because we do not have technological platforms that support that movement, sometimes we are able to refer to people working elsewhere as ghost workers.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabumba: So, it is important that part of the money that the ministry has in the 2023 is invested in technological platforms that are going to allow the ministry to have information indicating where our health workers have been transferred to or deployed and which institutions are where. If her memory serves her right, the hon. Minister will recall that she once gave us a list of health posts. From that list, we did not even know where some of the health posts were. However, if the Government invested in technological platforms, again, the hon. Minister would be able to come to this august House and give colleagues statistical information that is accurate.
With that said, Mr Chairperson, I thank you and support the budget.
Hon. Member: Hear, hear!
Ms Mulenga: Quality!
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to wind up debate. I will try as much as possible to respond to some of the issues that came on the Floor of the House. Firstly, I just want to appreciate the last speaker. Well-spoken hon. Member, that was a mature debate. That is the kind of debate we want from the Opposition side. It was very focused.
Mr Chairperson, I think it is necessary for colleagues to understand that if you have been a leader in a certain ministry before, it is unprecedented and unprofessional to hammer your colleague. I am referring the other speaker, Dr Chitalu Chilufya, who was using the Floor …
Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Interruptions
Mrs Masebo: …to hammer me. I hope he has learnt something from –
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Member, resume your seat.
Dr Chilufya resumed his seat.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, let us avoid debating each other. We are setting a very bad precedent. So, hon. Minister, avoid mentioning names in here.Though Hon. Dr Chilufya did it, you should not follow his footsteps.
May the hon. Minister, continue.
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, thank you for that wise counsel. Colleagues, I think we have all learnt something. It does not help to attack each other, especially when you spoilt the system yourself.
Hon. PF Members: Question!
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order Mr Chairperson.
Mrs Masebo: Having said that Mr Chairperson, let me address my mind to the issue of drugs –
Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, I guided on that issue.
Mrs Masebo: Yes, much obliged.
The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, it is just making the environment to become unguided. If I have given some guidance, let us stick to it.
May the hon. Minister continue.
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I want to address my mind to the issue of the drug situation in the country and say to all the Zambians through this House that this Government is committed to ensuringthat there is a steady flow of drugs and medical supplies. The first thing we have done is to provide resources. The previous administration had less money than we did in 2022. Whilst it had less than K1.5billion, we had more K3billion. In the coming year, we have gone further to apply for more resources because the issue of resources is key.
Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) is a key institution that has been tasked to procure drugs. You may wish to note that when we took over Government, ZAMMSA was as good as dead. There was no board, there was nothing. What have we done is to put a board in place, we have employed a chief executive officer (CEO) and we are going forward to employ full time members of staff so that they begin to work better. The good news is that the story of there being no drugs, in as much as it is appreciated and noted, is not as bad as it is being used for political mileage.
Mr Chairperson, for example, a few days ago, on social media, someone captured a hospital maybe in South Africa, with some white people and said this is Levy Mwanawasa University Teaching Hospital and give an analogy that they took somebody there, but there is no medicine and that that person died.
Mr Chairperson, I am not saying that the situation is 100 per cent perfect, but the fact is that this administration is doing better with regard to medical supplies.
Hon. PF Members: Question!
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo: At the time we took over, Mr Chairperson, there were no drugs to talk about because that was the time the previous administration had imported sub-standard drugs called Honeybee Drugs. So, how can one even talk about drugs? I have said on the Floor of this House –I have been to health facilities in six out of theten provinces. Let me explain one thing. There is a tendency to think that every person who goes to a clinic, health post or a community health facility either in the urban or rural area, and tells the medical staff that he/she has cancer, for instance, he is she is told that there are no drugs for cancer and that they should go to the next level hospital. Based on the scenario I have given, people say there are nodrugs in clinics. The truth of the matter is, yes, there will be no drugs for cancer because cancer is not being treated at a particular level. So, you will find that people are going to a low-level facility expecting to be treated for certain diseases. Each level of hospital has its own treatment. So, we have administrative issues which this Government will have to clean up, created by the previous administration.
Mr Chairperson, the last speaker was talking about mini hospitals, which really should not be called mini hospital. It is simply a health facility at that level, like in an urban area or rural area.
Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Mrs Masebo: For us, as the New Dawn Government, we will not be giving names, …
Interruptions
Mrs Masebo: …which are meaningless.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
When the hon. Minister is responding, there is no need for you to debate whilst seated. You raised some issues on Friday including today. So, you have to be attentiveas she is responding so that you can hear what she is saying. Now, the hon. Minister is responding and you are busy talking where you are. This will not help. Let us ensure that we debate only when given the Floor.
May the hon. Minister continue.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, what we are saying is that this administration will not cause confusion even in the identification of health facilities. For us, under the New Dawn Government, we simply have health posts and rural and urban health centres. From there,we have first, second, third and fourth level hospitals. That is where itends. You will not hear of terms which people do not understand that just cause confusion. We are not going to do that.
So, I thank the hon. Member for that guidance. We are already on it. I will come on the Floor of the House to give hon. Members the means and how we are defining all these things. When you say mini-hospital, people expect to have a mortuary. However, such facilities do not have mortuaries because they are not mini hospitals.
Hon. PF Members: Question!
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, that is for us. We are a very methodical Government led by a methodical leader.
Mr Chairperson, that is the story of drugs. So, our colleagues must take it easy and just give us time. They will see that they will have nothing to talk about. They have based their campaign on misinforming Zambians about the difficulties.
Now, let me say this: We have, in the new Act,a drug fund. So, just to answer one of our hon. Colleagues on the left – I think it was Hon.Mabumba who talked about upgrading the drug fund – that whilst we have increased the allocation from K3 billion to over K 4 billion, we know it is still not sufficient. Remember that this Government took over an empty treasury.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo: A treasury of debts.
Interruptions
Mrs Masebo: For the Ministry of Health, Mr Chairperson, you will bear with me that the cost of debt just on drugs is higher than the allocation of K3.4 billion. That is how bad it was. So, all these so called suppliers were just collecting air plus drugs and then no payments. This administration has been trying to dismantle that debt. That takes commitment from a serious Government.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. PF Members: Question!
Mrs Masebo:Mr Chairperson,this Government is serious.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo:This hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the President are serious. Hon Members have seen how much they have tried to dismantle. That is point number one.
Mr Chairperson, point number two is that we are talking about infrastructure development. My hon.Colleague talked about the need to complete construction of infrastructure. This administration is not petty like the previous Government...
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo:... which was looking at faces and regions to take development. This Government shall deliver development in all the ten provinces.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo:Take note that we shall complete buildings and also build new facilities because that is in our agenda and manifesto.
Mr Chairperson, talking about human resources, you heard somebody talk about having employed 25,000 people. I do not have to tell the people of Zambia because they can judge whether it is true that the previous administration employed 25,000 people. They can tell whether they heard about it or not.
Talking about the New Dawn Administration, we have employed over 12,000 in our first year. Next year, we shall employ more than 3,000.The other year, we shall, again, employ. Depending on our resources,we shall employ even more. As we employ, we will consider all the 116 districts equally.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo:There will be no segregation, tribalism and regionalism. We want all the provinces to receive similar development. Even when it comes to employing, we do not look at where one comes from. We just know that Zambia has seventy three tribes and ten provinces and that everybody requires being part of everything.
Mr Chairperson, as regards the issue of human resources,we are on course to ensuring that going forward, we upgrade those whograduated, maybe, five or ten years ago, but are getting a salary which is below their position. This administration,in just this year alone, has upgraded about 4,000 people and they are going to be paid their rightful salaries. In addition,for next year, we have increased their salaries by 10.5 per cent.
For those who have not been upgraded, we shall upgrade more next yearand until we make sure that everybody is at that level. We may not do everything, but we have started. That is commitment and seriousness;not just talking.
Lastly, I thank my hon. Colleague from Kalabo for appreciating the work of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. When we took over, it was a dead company.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo: Nobody heard about it. It had no board. We have brought it back to life. Today, it is all over the skies providing quality health service.
Somebody talked about targets. Somebody boasted about targets and said that, “You know, you have to give us targets.” I will just give the House a simple Grade 7 target for every citizen of this country to understand. We took over when vaccination rate against Coronavirus Disease2019 (COVID-19) was at 3.5, but are now at 75 per cent; in a short time.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, for the first, there are a number of benchmarksthat this administration has achieved in one year which others failed to doin all their years.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
A point of order is raised.
Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to raise this very important point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65.
Mr Chairperson, this House has been on this issue of medical drugs for the past three months, to the extent that the hon.Madam Speaker had to assign her Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services to go and assess the situation on the ground around the country. That report is yet to come. If, indeed, the hon.Minister, who is very experienced and served as Cabinet Minister in the New Deal Government, the Patriotic Front (PF) and now in the New Dawn ...
Ms Mulenga: And always fired.
Mr Kampyongo:... is sincereon the status of the availability of drugs,why would we, as hon. Members here, even dispatch, at a great cost, the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services to go check the status as regards the availability of drugs?
Is she in order to veer off from her policies and start ...
Hon. PF Member: Throwing tantrums
Mr Kampyongo: ... accusing the PF Government, which she was a part ofas a Cabinet Minister –
Mr Mutale: And was fired.
Mr Kampyongo:Of course, we cannot blame the one who terminated her appointment.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo:Is she in order to continue on that trajectory when people are dying in various hospitals trivialising all I do here as just making lamentations? Is she in order to continue saying that?
Mr Chairperson, with that kind of attitude, we can now understand why our people are in agonyand are dying.
Is she in order to continue like that?
I seek your guidance.
Hon.PF Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
In the first place, you brought Madam Speaker into your debate. Our rules say that we should at no time debate ourselves.
The points that the hon.Member, Mr Kampyongo, was trying to stress was to do with the validity of the report of the Committee that went around that was constituted by Madam Speaker to interrogate the hospitals. So, we are not allowed to debate ourselves.
Let us make progress.
Vote 46 – (Ministry of Health – K 16,080,373,574)
Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5532, Sub-Programme 2003– Tertiary Hospitals Services – K2,817,820,034.
Sir, I might be looking fit where I am –
Mrs Masebointerjected.
Mr Menyani Zulu: Mr Chairperson, it is on Table 3, Programme 5532, Sub-Programme 2003 – Tertiary Hospitals Services. The 2023 Budget has increased, which is good for us, although I know that the money is still not enough for the ministry.
Sir, I have been trotting to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) for medical attention and I note that a good number of machines in the laboratory and nuclear department are down. With this Budget, are we going to see the procurement of new equipment in the said departments so that we can improve services to the Zambians? The hon. Minister may agree with me that UTH is the biggest tertiary hospital that we have.
Mr Chairperson, let me just congratulate the hon. Minister on the increase inthe Budget for Programme 5531, Sub-Programme 1002 – Infrastructure Development,from K69,879,530 to K574,432,726. I have been a victim because whenever I complained about the hospital, some people still gave me directions to my own hospital. Are some of the neglected health facilities in rural districts like Nyimba going to be completed? This money is sufficient because it has been increased by about K503 million. This was not the case in the previous Government. Are we going to see incomplete and abandoned facilities start functioning as hospitals and not as Out Patient Departments (OPDs)?
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, first of all, let me say that indeed,there is an increase under Tertiary Hospitals Services, which are Level 3 hospitals. This allocation will go towards ensuring that there is improvement in management and other logistics that would be required in tertiary hospitals.
Mr Chairperson, you will note that this has increased across all levels of hospitals. So, generally, we want to increase on the grants that will go, not only to Level 1 and II hospitals but also, to health centres and posts.
Mr Chairperson, as regards infrastructure and equipment, we have a different line for the equipment, which has also seen a sharp increase.We also have a different line for infrastructure.
Mr Chairperson, speaking, for Nyimba, I am quite aware that it was neglected for reasons that I do not know. Due to universal health coverage under decentralisation, the New Dawn Government will treat all provinces and districts equally.
Mr Chairperson, I am interested in Nyimba District and I will see to it that next year, the district hospital is complete so that we open it so that the year after, we can then talk about other health facilities that the hon. Member wants. However, for the hospital, at least, we shall complete it in 2023, God willing.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 508, Programme 5532, Sub-Programme2006 – Infrastructure Development – K1,419,941,314. In 2021, K1,550,745,082 was allocated. In 2022, there is an allocation of K1,503,359,155. However, for next year, the hon. Minster is only requesting for K1,419,941,314. So, my first question is: Why is there a reduction considering the overwhelming requests coming from various constituencies including Kamfinsa, for the completion of many health facilities?
Mr Chairperson, let me ask another question so that I do not have to request for another opportunity. On the same page, may I have clarification on Programme 5534, Sub-Programme4001 – University Health Training – K58,281,988.
Mrs Masebo: Page?
Mr Kang’ombe: On the same page.
Mrs Masebo: Yes!
Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister is requesting for–
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
You should give an opportunity to ask to others because we have limited time to transact the Business of the House. So, I think –
Mr Kang’ombe:Mr Chairperson, you have always allowed three questions at once.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hello!
Mr Kang’ombe: You have always allowed three questions at once, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: Okay.
Mr Kang’ombe: You have always allowed. It is not the first time.
The Deputy Chairperson: Due to time–
Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I will make it very quick.
The Deputy Chairperson:Due time, I will not allow you. You have already asked one question, is it so?
Mr Kang’ombe:So, I want to use the remaining two slots because you have always allowed three questions.
The Deputy Chairperson: No! I am here to regulate business.
Others want to ask questions as well. I have seen Mr Sampa and Mr Kafwaya indicating. They also want to be given an opportunity.When hon. Members do not speak,they usually feel offended. So, let the hon. Minister respond to your first question so that others are also given an opportunity to speak. We have limited time.
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I would say there is no reduction, per se because somewhere, there are resources put in place for infrastructure. However, under Programme 5532, Sub-Programme 2006 – Infrastructure Development – K1,503,359,155, but next year’s Budget has an allocation of K1,419,941,314.
Sir, the reason is very simple. Some infrastructure were completed. Hon. Members are aware that there have been some hospitals, health posts and rural health centres that have been completed. So, the amount could not be the same except that we will prioritise completion. We will not ignore the construction of new infrastructure. The reason for that is simple. Themanner in which the previous Government was allocating facilities was not equitable. So, since this Government is about equity, weare deliberately making sure that a district like Nyimba is considered.So, if we say we are only going tocomplete infrastructurein places where the previous administration put structures, what about where they did not do anything? It means such places have to wait for another five years. No! We are in a hurry to make sure that all the provinces and districts at least, have one or two infrastructure.
Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on infrastructure development. I know that the Budget Speech referred to the completion of thirty-six district hospitals. I made further inquires because in Mufulira, we also have an incomplete district hospital. So, I have gone through the Yellow Book to see where specifically the completion of the thirty-six district hospitals is stated, but I have not found it. I know for example, on page 512, under Table 6 specifically, the number of mini-hospitals that will be constructed and the number of health posts that will be completed have been itemised, but I have not seen the completion of district hospitals. I have even looked at page 524, which is a summary of all the outputs we expect in 2023, but I have not seen a line, which is specifically speaking to the completion of the thirty-six district hospitals. I want to find out where, if at all, the Budget has been provided for the completion of the thirty-six district hospitals is, which includes one in Mufulira.
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, we have been discussing Programme 5532, Sub-programme 2006 – Infrastructure Development – K1,419,941,314 on page 515. However, for Programme 5599, Sub-programme 034 – Infrastructure Development – K5,725,594 on page 522, in the 2021 Budget, there was no allocation, but in this year’s Budget, there was K16,256,641.
Mr Chairperson, the point I am emphasising is that flowers and mini-hospitals have been listed and this is a budget estimate. We cannot list everything because this is not an activity-based budget like it was before. We would have a huge Yellow Book and every item to be undertaken had to be specified. However, infrastructure development can mean a health post, a clinic, a health centre or what the PF members call a mini-hospital, which we call a clinic whether in urban or rural areas
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the other point is that under Vote 21 – Ministry of Finance and National Planning, there are resources under national planning for certain sectors, including the Ministry of Health for the construction, for example, of hospitals. So, under Vote 21, that has been centrally budgeted for, including the debts of some of our colleagues’ suppliers. That money is not reflected under the Ministry of Health, but somewhere else. So, be at ease; we shall serve you. This Government is serving every Zambian and every area.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Chairperson, I draw the hon. Minister’s attention to page 510. I notice that the other budgets lines have had an upward adjustment. However, may I have clarification on Programme 5531, Sub-programme 206 – National Malaria Elimination Centre – K9,457,840, Sub-programme 207 – Lusaka Province HIV/AIDS Response Support-PEPFAR CDC – K39,356,417, Sub-programme 208 – Western Province HIV/AIDS Response Support-PEPFAR CDC – K32,000,000, Sub-programme 221 – National Food and Nutrition Commission – K13,012,253.
Mr Chairperson, the ministry is proposing to spend the same amounts as of last year on these sub-programmes. What is the ministry’s justification for maintaining the same amounts when the cost of medicines has gone up? Further, how do we expect these very key programmes under primary health care to be sustained?
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I thank Hon. Kampyongo for the questions.
Mr Chairperson, I note that those sub-programmes are under Programme 5531, Primary Health Services, and the primary objective of this programme is to provide primary clinical care, outreach, community health, referral and surveillance service as well as construction and rehabilitation of primary health facilities, and this has been catered for under sub-programme 03 – Transfers. The whole list has to do with donor support. We cannot control what the donors give us and we are always grateful for the support.
Mr Chairperson, the House may note that most of the works under the Ministry of Health are heavily funded and supported by donors. So, these are donor funds and the donors themselves decide how to spend them and that is why the amounts are basically the same. It is suffice to say this is just one component of resources for primary health care. There is also the Government side, non-governmental organisations (NGOs), communities and now the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), where hon. Members are supporting us.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Sampa (Matero): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5531, Sub-programme 150 – Essential Drugs and Medical Supplies – K1,530,511,609. In 2021, when the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government inherited the Patriotic Front (PF) Government’s Budget, it increased this budget line by 55 per cent, from K717,547,571 to K1,123,850,656 in 2022. Next year, the ministry has increased the budget by 36 per cent and itis K1,530,511,609.
Mr Chairperson, more money has been allocated to the budget line for medical supplies. If we are to be sincere, there is no medicine in most hospitals, including those in Chongwe. So, clearly, money is not the issue. What is the guarantee that this increment for next year of an additional K400 million, from K1,123,850,656 to K1,530,511,609 will ensure that there is medicine in all the hospitals?
Mr Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Programme 5531, Sub-programme 121 – Medical Equipment and Health Technologies – K500,000,000. I see that there is an allocation of half a million for this sub-programme next year. However, the Computerised Tomography (CT) Scan at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) is ever breaking down. There is a long queue there and our relatives suffer when they want to use the CT Scan. Has the ministry not thought of buying a CT Scan at the UTH because the one that is there is ever breaking down. Even the machine at the Cancer Diseases Hospital is ever down. Will the ministry use that money to replace that equipment?
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for Matero for the follow-up questions. Since the hon. Member has asked two questions, I will answer the last question because I already attended to the other one in the policy statement.
Sir, the second point is that whilst we look at the things that need immediate attention, in the last months, we have managed to release some resources to the Cancer Diseases Hospital specifically to help repair, temporarily, the equipment there. They had five machines but I am told two are obsolete. However, of the three, two computerized tomography (CT) scan machines are currently working. One magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan has been fixed. So, there is something going on.
Mr Chairperson, the truth of the matter is that we have over 3,000 cancer patients going through the hospital. During the good days of the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD), it used to, at least, serve 1,500 patients. During the Patriotic Front (PF) time, the number went down to 400 and that is what we have inherited.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Mrs Masebo: Having inherited 400 cancer patients going through the Cancer Diseases Hospital, which is so bad and we recognise that, we are doing everything to ensure that we improve.
Sir, if you go there now, you will find that the equipment is working but it is still not sufficient. We are doing many things and sometimes people must give support where they see there is an improvement. They should not just be negative. The truth of the matter is that if you go to the Cancer Diseases Hospital, there is some element of cleanliness, including the rest of UTH. That is what I know. If you compare it to how it was before August, the place was stinking.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Mrs Masebo: It is still not good enough but there is some element of cleanliness at UTH. That is not my best, of course, but we are doing everything possible to improve.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, ‘stinking’ is unparliamentary.
Mrs Masebo: Can I say it was smelling? Is that okay?
The Deputy Chairperson: Yes.
Mrs Masebo: It was smelling.
Sir, I am aware that one hospital that is not doing well in terms of cleanliness is Levy Mwanawasa University Teaching Hospital. There are other health facilities too. It is also about resources, not just financial resources but even human resources. Let them give us a bit of time. It has been a year and so much has happened, even if they do not agree.
Hon. Government Members: They will never agree!
Mrs Masebo: So much has happened including making hon. Members relevant in their respective constituencies as they use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to help the health sector. So, let us work together.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, Mr Katambo will be the last speaker, for the sake of progress.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!
Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarity on Programme 5532, Sub-Programme 221 – Zambia Flying Doctors Services – K30,707,989. In her statement, the hon. Minister indicated that this was a dead entity that was non-operational. However, truth be told, I used that chopper to go and eradicate the African Migratory Locusts and the Red Locusts in Mala in the Western Province. So, I wondered why the hon. Minister was saying that we allocated K22 million to the Zambia Flying Doctors Service, under our rule, but it was non-operational.
Sir, if this was a dead entity and she has only allocated K30,707,989, what is her justification? There is no increment. Zambians have been listening to her say that it was a dead entity and there is no increment. What is her justification?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I love that question. The justification is that the hon. Member of Parliament has told us that for the first time in the history of Kalabo District, they saw the Zambia Flying Doctors Services servicing the area.
Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!
Hon. Government Member: Mulekutika?
Mrs Masebo: The same applies to the North-Western Province, including the area where the young lady who is smiling happily (pointing at the PF Members of Parliament) comes from, and the Copperbelt.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo: If you follow the news, you will agree that we never heard of the Zambia Flying Doctors Service except when it transported individuals like the hon. Member who has just spoken.
Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Chilangwa, it was just on a lighter note.
Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: We should be able to smile in this House. So, that was just on a lighter note.
Laughter
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, at the time we took over, I am sure you know that the planes were grounded. It is the New Dawn Government that has had to repair them and now they are moving all over the country servicing citizens. You have heard the chiefs: Wherever the Zambia Flying Doctors Service has gone, everybody is welcoming it saying that they are happy being serviced for the first time and that it is what they want.
Sir, it is not me talking. I have been hearing people on television and radio sayingthe things which were never said.
Mr Katambo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Opposition Members: Order!
Mrs Masebo: Do not say ‘order’. I am answering your questions. Be strong.
Laughter
Hon. Government Members:Koseni!
Mrs Masebo: Koseni. Mu Cibemba, koseni. One year, natutampa ukulilalila, fye?
Laughter
Mrs Masebo: Right now, the engine is being fixed in South Africa and the Zambia Flying Doctors Services is flying everywhere. They will see it even in their constituencies. So, they should not worry. It will go and even service their grandmothers.
Hon. Government Members:Koseni!
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the K22 million they are talking about was not fully funded. Do you know what these people used to do? They used to put figures and you would be lucky if they released half of it. You would be lucky if they released money in January or February. If they released money in January, the next time they would release money would be in April and the following time would be at the end of the year, in December at Christmas time. That is how they were releasing the money. However, this administration is not just increasing the allocation, but is doing so consistently and methodogically …
Laughter
Mrs Masebo: … so that in a methodical way, we are able to plan and know which month the money will be released. So, we are that methodical. We know what we are doing.We are led by a man who has vision, not just a dancer.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
The Deputy Chairperson: I appealed earlier that we make progress.
Hon. Opposition Members: Awe!
Hon. Opposition Memberscalled for a division.
Question that Vote 46 - Ministry of Health - K16,080,373,574 stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted.
Ayes – (38)
Mr Allen Banda
Mr Chewe
Mr Chibombwe
Mr C. Chibuye
Mr Chisanga
Mr E. Daka
Mr Kalimi
Mr Kampyongo
Mr C. Kang’ombe
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Mr Katambo
Ms Katuta
Ms Mabonga
Mr Mabumba
Mr B. Mpundu
Mr C. Mpundu
Mr Mtayachalo
Mr Mukosa
Mr Mulebwa
Ms K. Mulenga
Mr Mundubile
Mr Mung’andu
Mr Elias Musonda
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwambazi
Mr Mwila
Mr M. Phiri
Mr P. Phiri
Mr Simumba
Mr M. Tembo
Mr Twasa
Mr Wamunyima
Mr Menyani Zulu
Mr Munir Zulu
Noes – (66)
Mr Amutike
Mr Anakoka
Mr Andeleki
Mr E. Banda
Mr Chaatila
Mr Chikote
Mr Chilundika
Mr Chinkuli
Ms Chisangano
Ms Halwiindi
Mr Hamwaata
Mr Hlazo
Mr Jamba
Mr Kambita
Mr Kamondo
Mr Kapala
Ms Kasune
Mr Katakwe
Mr Kolala
Mr Lihefu
Mr Mabenga
Mr Mandandi
Mr Mapani
Ms Masebo
Mr Matambo
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbangweta
Mr Mbao
Mr Michelo
Mr Miyutu
Mr Moyo
Mr Mposha
Mr Mubika
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukumbi
Mr Mulaliki
Mr Mulunda
Mr Mulusa
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwene
Mr Nanjuwa
Mr Ngowani
Mr Nkandu
Mr Nkombo
Mr Nkulukusa
Mr Nzovu
Mr Peter S. Phiri
Ms Sabao
Mr Samakayi
Ms Sefulo
Mr Siachisumo
Mr Simbao
Mr Simunji
Mr Simushi
Mr Simutowe
Mr Sing’ombe
Brig Gen Sitwala
Mr Syakalima
Ms Tambatamba
Mr Tayengwa
Abstention – (03)
Mr Daka
Dr Kalila
Mr Munsanje
The Deputy Chairperson: The results are as follows:
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: As you can see.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: I think it is very visible.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Let me announce the results.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Which one should I start with?
Laughter
Mr Sampa: On a point of procedure, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Member, in the Standing Orders, there is nowhere you will find a point of procedure. Read it very well, hon. Member.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, please take your seat.
Mr Samparesumed his seat.
Question accordingly agreed to, with more than two – thirds of all Members voting in theaffirmative and Vote 46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Laughter
Mr Mung’andu rose.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, may you please take your seat.
Mr Mung’andu resumed his seat.
The Deputy Chairperson: It has been resolved in the affirmative. Let us make progress.
Interruptions
Hon. PF Members: Question is not yet put.
The Deputy Chairperson: I did. Do you want me to repeat because I did that before voting.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Let me repeat. I put a question that is why we went into voting.
Question accordingly agreed to, with more than two – thirds of all Members voting in theaffirmative and Vote 46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
The Deputy Chairperson: Let us make progress. I have seen that you are happy with the results and the way the voting went.
Laughter
VOTE 87 – (Anti-Corruption Commission– K 172,468,944).
The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Chairperson, allow me to sincerely thank you for this opportunity accorded to me to present the 2023 Estimates of Expenditure for Vote 87 – the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC).
Mr Chairperson, the commission is established as an investigation wing by the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016, pursuant to Article 235(a). Its mandate is provided under Section 6(1) of the Anti-Corruption Act No. 3 of 2012 summarised below:
- prevent and take necessary and effective measures for the prevention of corruption in public and private bodies;
- initiate, receive and investigate complaints of alleged or suspected corrupt practices;
- prosecute offences under the Anti-Corruption Act No. 3 of 2012 and any other offence under any other written law as may have come to the notice of the commission during the investigation of an offence under the Act; and
- adopt and strengthen mechanisms for educating the public to respect the public good and public interest.
Mr Chairperson, as can be noted from the mandate, the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) is a key Government institution tasked with the responsibility of tackling corrupt practices in all its forms.
Mission Statement
The functions of the commission are undertaken in line with its mission statement outlined below:
“To effectively and impartially prevent and combat corruption in order to promote integrity, transparency and accountability for the attainment of a corruption-free Zambia.”
Goal Statement
In support of the mission statement, the commission’s goal statement is as follows:
- to enhance and strengthen the capacity of the ACC; and
- to prevent, detect and combat corruption and build public confidence in the commission.
Overview of 2022 Budget Performance
Mr Chairperson, in 2022, the allocation to the commission was K101,070,614.The commission undertook to strengthen its operations and restore the fight against corruption in Zambia. I am delighted to inform this august House that this fight is now back on course and remains top on the Government’s development agenda.
The commission placed a high premium on corruption and recorded a number of cases to date. The following are the achievements:
- 284 investigation cases were concluded;
- seventy individuals were arrested and charged for various corruption offences;
- a total of K66,259,446in recovered funds was handed over to the State after it was forfeited in 2021. In addition, the value of properties forfeited to the State during the year is K22,318,502;
- the estimated value of properties under investigations which have either been restricted or seized is K445,549,071;
- eighteen cases were concluded before the courts, resulting in eight convictions, six acquittals and four pending judgement. The total number of criminal cases before court is now forty-seven. There are also sixteen civil cases before court and five pending judgement;
- eleven new integrity committees were established in various public institutions and trained while training was also conducted for twenty-eight existing integrity committees;
- the first ever private sector symposium was held with over 180 participants in attendance. This was an avenue for bringing on board the private sector in the fight against corruption;
- over five million people across the country were sensitised on anti-corruption messages through various media platforms and public outreach activities; and
- the commission also managed to restock its depleted fleet of operational motor vehicles.
2023 Budget Estimates
Mr Chairperson, the total budget estimate for the commission for the year 2023 is K172,468,944. This allocation represents an increase of 71 per cent from the 2022 allocation. The allocation will cover the following programmes:
- corruption investigations and prosecution;
- corruption prevention and education; and
- management and support services.
Mr Chairperson, further, this will cater for the enhanced fight against corruption through the decentralisation of the commission to selected districts; employment of additional staff; and enhancement of operations of specialised units.
Mr Chairperson, I appeal to the hon. Members to support the Estimates of Expenditure for the ACC.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for this opportunity to debate the Vote on the Floor.
Mr Chairperson, I think the starting point when debating the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) is the definition of corruption because, without understanding or properly appreciating what it means, the debate will be in vain.
Mr Chairperson, corruption should not be looked at in a narrow sense. It must be looked at in a wider concept. It is not the mere taking or paying of bribes. It involves actions that put private interests above public interests. It is not the mere soliciting for G wagon vehicles and money from suppliers or contractors. It must be looked at in a wider concept. At times, the ACC narrows this subject.
Now, when we talk about corruption, we also relate it to policy, legislation and administration. When we have an hon. Minister giving certain concessions, for instance, to mining houses, we must question; did he or she do that in public interest or, indeed, private interest?
Mr Chairperson, the ACC must widen its search for corruption. Certain decisions that are made in these public offices must be questioned. If, for instance, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development giving out licences and the ACC is told that there is a gentleman sitting somewhere in a corner bearing a certain name vetting what name should get a mining licence, it should get interested. These are the things that are happening today. The hon. Minister seated there knows what I am talking about. So, they should not narrow the subject of corruption.
Mr Chairperson, personally, I want to tell you, for instance, that I have never agreed with the awarding of those concessions by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to those mining houses, resulting in losses of K3.2 billion and K2.8 billion per year in exchange for a promissory note that will only actualise after ten years. Is there public interest or private interest in those cases? We want to understand the decisions on Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) and Konkola Copper Mines (KCM). What is really going on in those areas?
Ms Mulenga: Yes.
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, are the people on the Copperbelt going to be considered or it is private capital that is going to be considered? I am speaking to the ACC. I have seen that it has trivialised this subject and it is high time it rose to the occasion and began to look at corruption for what it is. Let us call corruption for what it is. It is not a play game where we begin to look at a policeman or an hon. Minister soliciting for cars, and say, “No, this one wants a G wagon, gray or black in colour.” It goes beyond that.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Mulenga: Hammer!
Mr Mundubile: So, the starting point, as we look at the subject of corruption, is to understand its definition. So, as we go forward, we must begin to look, first of all, strictly at the policies that the Government comes up with on the Floor of this House. There is a new methodical and meticulous way of doing corruption. They will bring laws on this Floor. The beneficiaries are private individuals.
Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, we should remember that the only standard that it must pass, the test, is: Isit for the best interest of the public or it is for private interests? For as long as the interest weighs more on the private side, just know there just may be corruption there. We should remember that it involves policy, legislation and administration. So, as I stand here, I want to open this discussion on behalf of the people on the left and, indeed, the ACC that this is not child’s play. It is not a Mickey Mouse game. This is a game that must be fought. This is something that must be done with the seriousness that it deserves.
Mr Chairperson, when you have firms supply fertiliser to the Government at the cost of K50 million which should cost K35 million, why should the ACC not be interested in such a matter?
Ms Mulenga: Shame!
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, people have contracts worth K100 million to put up some health postssomewhere. It took people on the left here to fight that. They were only cancelled yesterday, six months later. We must take interest. Where was the ACC?
Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!
Mr Mundubile: If it hears that Hon. Lusambo has a house worth US$150,000, its officers stop and run to Hon. Lusambo’s house to go and confiscate zebras and other animals. That is not how we are going to fight this corruption. We want them to be serious as they fight this corruption. We will not give them this money for free; they must work for it. As we approve their budget, we must understand exactly what is at play.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Mulenga, today you are very happy and excited.
Laughter
Ms Mulenga: I am happy to see you.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Business was suspended from 1640 hours to 1700 hours.
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was talking about meticulous and methodical corruptionin Government. I was bringing to the attention of the ACC not to narrow the subject. The ACC must be suspicious that a Bill is brought to Parliament, Committees recommend against it, but the hon. Minister is adamant on the Floor. So, when I talk about policy legislation and administration, those are some of the things that I am referring to.
Hon. UPND Member: Question!
Mr Mundubile:Mr Chairperson, we must also look at appointments. When appointments are made in such a way that they could bypass controls because of patronage, that is the beginning of corruption. There must be controls in institutions. The moment you see certain appointments, it already shows you the direction the Government is going to take. No wonder we have instances where a top Government leader is seen carrying a heavy baggage of calendars ...
Interruptions
Mr Mundubile: ... and a report is made at the end of the year. When a report is made, somebody takes interest and makes a video of that particular transaction. When it is sent, the Head of State simply makes a call. Now, are they sure we are committed to the fight against corruption? What does that do to the institution that is fighting corruption?
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
You are the Leader of the Opposition and I know that you are a legal person. Therefore, you understand the Standing Orders very well. In Standing Order Nos. 65 and 66, you are forbidden to put the President in your debate in that context. So, let us refrain and ensure that at all times, we follow the guide by the Standing Orders.
May the hon. Member continue.
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, leaders who are meant to fight or lead the fight against corruption simply go to the media and say, “I called the hon. Minister and he said there was nothing in there and that is the end of that particular case”. Is that the way we are going to fight corruption? That is the question.
Mr Chairperson, right now, the debate on the Floor of the House is the shortage of drugs. The ACC may wish to know that the delay in the procurement of drugs is because somebody somewhere seated would like to single source friendly companies to supply drugs. This is done at the expense of poor Zambians who are suffering out there and dying every day due to lack of drugs. You have money and the budget has been approved, yet drugs are not procured. This is because somebody would like to single source companies that are friendly to them.
Mr Chairperson, the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is the only Government that only prefers two modes of procurement which are single sourcing and limited bidding. We want to call upon the ACC to take a schedule of the procurements that have happened in the last twelve months and find out how those procurements have been done. These procurements have predominantly been single sourcing. No wonder we have leaders who are awarding themselves illegal contracts in audit of defence forces.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mundubile: The ACC should take interest. The issue of the illegality is ours, but the ACC must take interest why leaders are awarding themselves contracts without declaring interest, yet the law is very clear. Every day we see the Government officials running around making statements talking about that when the real corruption is right behind them. We want the ACC to take interest and understand that the fight against corruption must be real, starting from the top.
Mr Mwene: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
A point of order is raised.
Mr Mwene: Mr Chairperson, I wish to rise on a very important point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 on a very senior hon. Member of Parliament, who is the Leader of the Opposition for that matter. Is he in order to stand on the Floor of this House and mislead the entire country that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is awarding contracts through single sourcing without evidence?
Interruptions
Mr Mwene: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member, Mr Mundubile, has not provided evidence to his allegations against the very good governance of the New Dawn Government.
Mr Chairperson, I need a very serious ruling on the hon. Member.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Leader of the Opposition, the allegations that you have levelled against the Government, can you substantiate them now? Can you lay the evidence on the Table?
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, I will opt not to trivialise this very important subject and proceed.
Mr Chairperson, we must understand that we have had transactions –
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
There was a point of order raised against what you alleged. So, I was asking if you could lay the evidence on the Floor but you did not respond. Are you able to or not?
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, it is a notorious fact that the contract to Alpha Commodities amounting to US$50 million was single sourced. It is in public domain. I do not have to trivialise the decorum of the House to bring it when it is in public domain. The contract of US$100 million for the procurement of those health posts in the Western Province was single sourced. It is in public domain.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
You alleged that government officials –
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson –
The Deputy Chairperson: Listen, hon. Member. Single sourcing –
Hon. Government Members: Sit down!
The Deputy Chairperson:Resume your seat.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Single sourcing, limited bidding or open bidding is all part of the procurement system. However, what is of context is that you have alleged that the Government officials are involved. So, it is against this background that I was asking you if you can substantiate your allegations.
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, the shareholders of Grant Thornton are top leaders of the UPND. That is the evidence and Grant Thornton was single sourced to do audit services in defence forces.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Let me guide, hon. Member. If you think or feel you have information, but you cannot substantiate that information, I would rather you withdraw that statement.
Hon. Opposition Members: No!
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, in this instance, I will put my head on the guillotine if I have to be punished. That is substantiated. The facts I have given are as they stand and cannot change. May I be allowed to continue?
The Deputy Chairperson: For you to continue, I want you to withdraw the allegations because you cannot substantiate them. You cannot lay the evidence on the Table. So, I will not allow you as I preside to mislead yourself and the Zambian public. If you cannot substantiate by laying the evidence on the Table, I will not allow you to proceed.
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, I will be unfair to the Zambian people just because some hon. Members are uncomfortable with the facts.
Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Mundubile: I will not sell my soul. I will not back down to apologise and withdraw the truth. I as Leader of the Opposition and Member of Parliament for Mporokoso, I am elected to come here and speak the truth. I can challenge anyone. The facts that I am laying on the Table are as they stand. I cannot –
Interruptions
Mr Mundubile: Let us not trivialise the decorum of the House. Why are we trivialising the decorum of the House? If we are going to call every debate and every juncture for someone to – it is not in dispute.
Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Sir.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: May you resume your seat. Let me guide.
Mr Mundubile resumed his seat.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Leader of the Opposition, when I guide, you debate as guided. You have not substantiated your allegations that you have levelled as being corrupt.You are free to debate as you wish but when you are guided, stick to the guidance.
You may proceed with your debate.
Mr Mundubile: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Youth, Sports and Art paid for an aeroplane that never arrived. It paid colossal sums of money for an aeroplane that never arrived. That is the corruption that we are talking about. So, going forward, as we embark on the fight against corruption, we must ensure that we do things as expected of us by the Zambian people.
Mr Chairperson,as regards the situation on the Copperbelt, concerning Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) and Konkola Copper Mines (KCM), the United Party for National Development (UPND) whilst in the Opposition, said it had a plan for these two mines. I was on the Copperbelt a few days ago. I almost broke down when I saw how the people on the Copperbelt are suffering because of these two mines. The manoeuvres coming out are that the decisions that are being made concerning these mines may not be as transparent. I want the ACC to take interest. Remember, earlier, I talked about this meticulous and methodical corruption…
Mr Mposha:On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Mundubile:…that involves policy, legislation and administration.So, going forward, let us widen the concept of the fight against corruption. Let us not trivialise the subject. I hope that the hon. Members seated here, including hon. Ministers, now know the enlarged definition of corruption so that they can learn to stay away from it.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mposha:Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order, arising from the misleading statement by the Leader of the Opposition.
Hon. PF Members: Which Standing Order?
Mr Mposha: Standing Order No.65 on content of speech and facts provided before the House.
Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member is misleading the country that the Ministry of Youth, Sports and Arts paid for an aeroplane which never arrived. However, it is inthe public domain that another aeroplane picked the team which eventually played –
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Members, do not debate whilst seated.If the environment is uncoordinated, I will have no choice but ask some of you to go out.
Mr Mutale: Ba Speaker, sure.
The Deputy Chairperson: No, no, I am telling you.
Hon. Minister, continue.
Mr Mposha: Mr Chairperson, it is in the public domain that when it was discovered that the aeroplane which was paid for was faulty, it was replaced and eventually, the players were picked and they beat Comoros.
Mr Chairperson, you have guided hon. Members several times to avoid bringing misinformation on the Floor of the House. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead himself, this House and the country at large and to provide false information?
I seek you serious ruling Mr Chairperson.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Mundubile, the Leader of the Opposition, was out of order to peddle falsehoods and to mislead himself, the House and the country at large.
Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the people of Mwinilunga the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important Vote, Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC).
Mr Chairperson, first of all, we all understand the definition of corruption. We do not need to be taught. We have been at this game for a long time. Corruption is simply dishonesty and fraudulent behaviour by those holding public office. That is the definition of corruption.
Mr Chairperson, globally, there is a concern about corruption. It is affecting all nations and people are grappling to find systems and mechanisms to reduce incidences of corruption in public and private institutions. We have been at this game for a long time and, of course, we have not made much progress, especially in the last ten years. There has been very little effort in fighting corruption. Corruption involves politicians as well as state officers, especially when it comes to the management of financial resources. I am very happy that the President has put the fight against corruption on the agenda and I think this is very clear if you look at the budget. The budget has been increased by 59 per cent. If you at the allocations of the past years and the allocations for 2023, it gives you an indication that the Government is serious about fighting corruption.
Mr Chairperson, the President has been here and he stated how he will fight corruption that happened in the last ten years, and which is happening now. Not everyone is an angel and corruption may take place now or tomorrow, but thePresident said that he will fight the corruption that happened in the past, which is happening now and that whichwill happen in future. The President needs the support of all of us in this House and, generally, the people out there. The people want the officers and the politicians to prudently manage their resources.
Mr Chairperson, when we were on your left, we talked about the corruption that was happening in the Patriotic Front (PF). We also said that in order for us to put up robust and coherent systems to fight corruption, we needed to enact a law. We asked our colleagues to bring a Bill to do with life style audit and they refused.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Samakayi: Mr Chairperson, the former Vice-President stood here and vehemently opposed to bring a Billon life style audit. I urge the ACC to initiate aBill on life style audit so that the hon. Minister of Justice can bring it to this House.
Mr Chairperson, there are no games about fighting corruption. It does not matter whether you are on the left or rightof the Speaker. For as long as the President said he wants to fight corruption, we should all support that. There is no need for people in offices, like politicians and state officers, to fill in formslisting the properties they own, and their liabilities. After that, they must file the list with judges. There is no system. If I report, today, that my net worth is K9 million and five or three years later, I am at K25 or 30 million. There is no system to check. How have I moved from K9 million to K30 million or K35 million? There is no system. So, that law on declaration of assets is moribund, as far as I am concerned, because there are no mechanisms to check how people are accumulating wealth. That is why we are advocating that a lifestyle audit bill is brought here.
Mr Chairperson, I know they are quiet.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Samakayi: Mr Chairperson, all of them are quiet. Those who have gone and those who are here are quiet on the audit bill. It has to be brought here. It is in the interest of the public that this bill must be brought to this House so that we pass it and monitor the accumulation of wealth.
Mr Chairperson, corruption is eating into the development of this country. We do not need to support people who are involving themselves in corrupt practices. Whether it was done ten years ago or two years ago when they were in the Patriotic Front (PF) or doing it while they are in United Party for National Development (UPND), they have to account. People must learn to account when holding public offices.
Mr Chairperson, the ACC is supported on this Vote. The Government is supporting it by increasing the budget. I have seen that the strategies it has put in place are quite good and I think we will get somewhere.
Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to debate the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC).
Mr Chairperson, first of all, kudos on the achievement mentioned in the Policy Statement of 284 concluded cases with K66 million recovered. However, what is concerning is onlyeight convictions for the year 2021 were made.
Mr Chairperson, it is very worrying that the crusade on corruption continues to be amplified but for one year, we have only convicted eight people. This is very concerning. Numbers do not lie. Zambia is ranked 117th out of 180 countries on the Corruption Perceptions Index, scoring thirty-three out of 100. It means that in this country, corruption continues to remain pervasive to the people. Where the ugly face of corruption shows its face, it deprives generations of resources and income.
Mr Chairperson, the ACC has not experienced much reform since its formation. Therefore, even as it increases the budget, there must be an improvement in the policy. Over a year after the New Dawn Government took over power, the fight against corruption leaves much to be desired. I will give you an example from the 2021 Auditor General’s Report. On page 277, it says that in July 2017, the Ministry of Defence signed a contract with a joint stock company for the supply of one super jet aircraft for the Zambia Air Force, for the contract sum of US$49 million. As at July 2022, the supplier had been paid US$7.8 million, leaving a balance of US$41.6 million but the jet has not been delivered.
Hon. Government Members: PF
Mr Wamunyima: Mr Chairperson, that was one of the many issues in the Audit Report. So, my question is: From 2017 to 2022, what has the ACC been doing? It is commendable that there is an increase in funding but we must address what is happening. The reason the ACC has over 100 cases today is because successive Governments focus on past corruption. Corruption must be practically addressed as it is taking place. If the ACC hears that there is census and people are complaining about corruption on census, it must take keen interest. In my Constituency, the 2022 Census of Population and Housing was marred with corruption. I have evidence, and wrote to that effect.
Mr Chairperson, as Parliament, we must depart from a trend where when what is being debated does not please you, you question. We must be factual. The fight against corruption has not reached a stage where we can take pride.
Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!
Mr Wamunyima: Mr Chairperson, we should not trivialise this fight. When you look at issues, the ACC has a lot of work to do. I mentioned an example of where K7.8 million has been paid. There are several issues here and that is why when the ACC is being funded, budgetary allocation is increasing. There must be practical steps to commit to in order to increase convictions. Part of the reason the New Dawn Government was elected was based on the narrative that the PF was corrupt. Some of the cases are being seen but mostly with technocrats.
Mr Chairperson, most people who appear before the ACC are politicians and not technocrats. Controlling officers and directors who were signing for things are not pursued as aggressively as politicians. It questions the morality and the integrity on the fight against corruption. Is it a pay back? If there is a truly genuine fight against corruption, we must begin seeing these procurement committees that werefloating the Public Procurement Act of 2020 being summoned at ACC.
Mr Chairperson, we have a situation of US$7.8 million paid for a jet that has not been delivered, but we are still discussing a 50 X 50 plot and we are reporting it.
Laughter
Mr Chairperson, are we serious with the fight against corruption when we say that a 50 X 50 plot has been obtained? We need to be serious. When you look at this report, the Ministry of Defence is a disaster. The ministry went to a company to buy a Toyota Mark X and were quoted K112,000. It went to another company –
Mr Michelo: Which year?
Mr Wamunyima: The year 2018.
Mr Michelo: It was PF.
Mr Wamunyima: It was quoted K168,000 and it bought it. It is on page 273 of the report.
Interruptions
Mr Chairperson, the anti-corruption fight must be devoid of political influence. The ACC must not be used to settle political scores. Let people cited, be picked. If politicians are also on the list, so be it. Let the money be recovered.
Mr Chairperson, I agree that K66 million, has been recovered, it is a good sign, but there is a need to intensify the fight. The practicability of the fight against corruption needs to be improved. I also need to see a come-back of anti-corruption clubs in schools. The late Levy Patrick Mwanawasa SC., introduced anti-corruption clubs in secondary schools. Are such clubs still there? The ACC used to sponsor student debates on corruption. So, the community sensitisation on corruption and prevention must be extended to primary and secondary schools the same way we are promoting the dancing club, though we do not know how that is helping us. We also have the Junior Engineers Technicians and Scientists (JETS) club.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the special people of Chesefu an opportunity to add their voice to this important matter. I would be failing in my duties if I did not state that this country is rich. This country is rich, and if we, as leaders in here, do not do the correct thing, this country will remain poor.
Mr Chairperson, my heart breaks when we talk about corruption, which has taken away resources for building a clinic in Chasefu. My heart breaks when we talk about corruption, which has taken away resources to improve the lives of the people in this country. That money could have been spent on inputs for the people. The current leadership has demonstrated that it wants to fight corruption and make this country better, but we are fighting it. We are not going to save this country. Let us take advantage of the existing political will. If a leader comes and says that the fight against corruption is back as the Vice-President stated in her policy statement, we all should take advantage and ask ourselves what we should do. Everyone has debated that we need to put an end to corruption. However, I am convinced that if none of us here, on the left and everyone in here, is not taken to jail, the people of Zambia will have an unfair deal.
Mr Chairperson, it starts with us politicians. We are here to make laws, but the Anti-Corruption Commission(ACC) officers are merely operatives. If there is no political will from us politicians, we will never do anything and the country will continue suffering. If the leadership is not thinking right, the resources of a country will go to waste. As my brother, whose name I do not want to mention, indicated, the truth is that the people of Zambia made a decision, and we know that one of the reasons for that was rampant corruption.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nyambose: Now we have political will. Why fear to be audited? Let the truth come out. If you are innocent, you will never be prosecuted. Do not worry, ask the ACC to come and audit me. If I have not stolen, nothing will come out. Zambians are wondering because corruption has gone deeper into the nerve centre of the country, even in constituencies.
Mr Chairperson, I want to thank the Government and the President, for giving us so many resources, which were not given by the people saying “ah”
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nyambose: Mr Chairperson, K27.5 million is massive, but it will be nothing if corruption is not fought.
Hon. Opposition Member: Why?
Mr Nyambose: I am coming to why it is related to corruption. Many of us are not demonstrating or following how the K27 million is being utilised. I will speak about my own constituency.
Mr Kalobo:Taulingile ukulandapaili ifwe!
Mr Nyambose: Mr Chairperson, corruption has gone down to every institution. So, the Government needs support to ensure that we start fighting it genuinely and effectively. It is a painful fact, but this country needs a fresh beginning.
Mr Chairperson, one great person, who used to be my boss, may his soul rest in peace, Mr Eddie Nason Mumba, told me that society does not sleep. We may be shouting and making comments here, but tomorrow, they will catch up with us. So, as a leadership, we have a duty to make a difference. In the past corruption, if my brothers here got anything, they should be jailed.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Nyambose: Sir, those indulging in corruption should also be jailed. If we set a precedent amongst ourselves, Zambians will see no need indulging in corruption. That is the beginning. So, the onus is on us as a leadership. We come here, debate and group ourselves. I support President Hakainde Hichilema, because of his policies and values.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Nyambose: If he is fighting old or current corruption, the audit should be deeper. The officers at the ACC should take advantage of the political will. We have increased the budget here, which I support, but officers should demonstrate their commitment to fighting corruption by taking action. They should start with us hon. Members by following us so that the people who put us in this House start fearing. We must account for ourselves. The fight against corruption is an issue of accountability. When I am in this House, I should account for what I come to do here. That is why Zambians brought in this Government. We need to account for ourselves. Many things were happening in the ministries in this country. So, because of such things, if we do not see anyone here, as an example, we shall–
Hon. Government Memberinjected
Mr Nyambose: I am with them here. They are listening
Laughter
Mr Nyambose: No one should be spared and no one will be spared, both from the left and the right. We need to bring change to this country.
Mr Chairperson, as we increase the budget, the ACC must take advantage of the political will and follow each person.
Interruptions
Mr Nyambose: Those who are not comfortable with the fight against corruption are the ones murmuring.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nyambose: Mr Chairperson, why should they fear if they are clean? People were carrying stashes of money, and right now, they are saying, we are not eating. If you work, can you fail to eat? The people of Chasefu should be the ones crying because they need fertiliser.
Sir, money was in the hands of a few individuals. Is this the society that we demand? I am one of them. I want the President to follow every person, whether from the previous regime or the current one, they should answer to the nation. They should be jailed as my friend said. Let them go to jail. They should be prosecuted. The money for prosecution has been increased. I submit and support the budget.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, clearly, we, your hon. Members do not condone corruption, whether it is, …
Interruptions
Ms Mulenga:Imwelekenialande! Chair, can you control the House.
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, can I be protected from the Hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation. He is distracting me, and I want him to provide water to Chama South. People do not have water in Chama South.
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that we, here, on your left,–
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
You have risen on a point of order. So, do not debate. Cite what has been breached.
Mr Mung’andu: MrChairperson, it is what I am raising. It is Standing Orders 65 and 67 which address content of speech.
Sir, the hon. Member for Chasefu knows too well that we do not condone corruption. We want the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to investigate the past and the present so that the future can be good. He knows that.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Mung’andu: Was he in order to start debating hon. Members? He was busy referring to hon. Members urging the ACC to start with him, a former commissioner for the Public Service Commission. He was also busy referring to us, hon. Members here. Was he in order to start debating us?
I seek your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The hon. Member was debating in the third person. He did not mention anyone’s name.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to debate on Vote 87 on behalf of the people of Bweengwa Constituency.
Sir, I thank the Vice-President for delivering such a sweet statement on the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). Let me start by saying that corruption in the last ten years had grown horns. It was very serious. It was very rampant and all the floodgates were widely opened.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Michelo:There was even a saying that, ‘uubomba mwibala, alya mwibala’.
Can you imaginethat we reached a situation in which people wanted to start ‘eating’ where they were working from?
Hon. Member: Meaning?
Mr Michelo:Let us eat from where we are working from. That was very demeaning to society in this country.
Mr Chairperson, allow me to talk about present corruption, past corruption and future corruption. When you are sweeping a house, there is no way you can starting sweeping from the veranda. You start sweeping from the bedroom. As you bring out the dirt, you get to the sitting and then you throw it away. That is what is happening. We are asking the ACC to start from the previous corruption. It should not start from the present, but keep an eye on it.
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Michelo: When cleaning a house, you start from somewhere.As you start to fight corruption, make sure, first of all, that you clean up the past, come to the present and then the future. So, the ACC should go back and start from the previous ten years so that all those people who were involved in the purchase of fire tenders; in the fertiliser chain;in Honey Bees transactions; and all those who wanted to sell the Natural Resources Development College (NRDC) land must all be jailed. We want them to be jailed.Some of them are here.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Michelo: Sir, some people were paid the full amount to construct the Itezhi-Tezhi Road. That company is called Build Trust Construction Limited. That company ‘chewed’ money without working on the same road. We want the owners of the company, including the ones who are here, to be tried. They should be taken to court and jailed. We want criminals to go to jail.
We are asking the ACC to make sure that awareness about corruption is taken to the entire country. It should go into villages and teach the villagers so that they can become aware about it and can report every manner of corruption happening be it in the village, in town and everywhere. That should include where we are coming from. Let me say that where we are coming from,corruption was stinking.
Sir, right now, if you go to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, you will discover that there are some people who got Zambian taxpayers money; millions of Kwacha. The hon. Minister was here and he read that out. The ACC should make sure that it follows those people up.
My brother and hon. Colleague also had one of the Auditor-General’s reports. Can the ACC, please, follow up on all those corrupt activities from 2001? Start following them up through the Auditor-General’s reports.Whoever was involved should get arrested, taken to court and be jailed. We are tired of sitting with criminals even in this House. We are not happy.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Michelo:We want all corrupt people to go to jail. Those who are here, but committed a crime or were involved in corruption, should go to jail.
The moment we do that, we will start seeing people running away from stealing the Zambian people’s money.
Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Sir, if you see people standing, just know that they are guilty.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Michelo:We want the guilty ones to be arrested immediately so that they can go to jail. We do not want them to continue enjoying money which they stole from the people of Zambia.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order hon. Member!
Mr Michelo: Another criminal!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Michelo, as you debate, avoid being provocative to your friends because the environment becomes –
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
You should be able to state facts, but ensure the environment is conducive.
Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Kafwaya: Mr Chairperson, I sincerely thank you for allowing me to rise on this very important point of order. Standing Order 74 is a very important Standing Order which allows for Parliamentary process in as far as approving the budget is concerned.
Sir, what we are doing here is very important. We are approving a budget for the UPND Government to spend money in 2023. The Vote under consideration is for us to allow the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to be able to spend money and arrest those who may be corrupt.
Is my hon. Colleague who is on the Floor ...
The Chairperson: Order!
Now you are –
Mr Kafwaya:... in order to trivialise the fight against corruption and mislead us that when sweeping a house, one starts from the bedroom and then get to the veranda even when there is faecal matter on the veranda? You jump faecal matter to go in the bedroom? The faecal matter such as the one the 100,000 …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Member, you said you stood on a point of order.
Mr Kafwaya: Yes!
The Deputy Chairperson: So, you should have stated that, but you are now debating. What has been breached?
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
You just quoted the Standing Order.
Mr Kafwaya: I mentioned Standing Orders 74.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
By the way, that Standing Order is not what you have stated. There is no cohesion in what you are talking about and the Standing Order.
Mr Kafwaya: No, No! Mr Chairperson, check.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Did you say Standing Order 74?
Mr Kafwaya: Yes!
The Deputy Chairperson:Standing Order 74 states:
72“A Question shall be directed to the Vice-President or a minister and shall only relate to the ministerial and public affairs with which the Vice-President or the minister is responsible officially.”
Mr Kafwaya: Mr Chairperson, …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
So, let us make progress. May the hon. Member resume his seat.
Hon. PF Members: Ah!
Mr Kafwaya: Mr Chairperson, …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
May the hon. Member for Bweengwa continue debating.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kafwaya: Mr Chairperson, …
Interruptions
Mr Michelo: Thank you very much –
The Deputy Chairperson: As you debate, hon. Member, watch your tone and language so that people are not provoked.
Laughter
Hon. Government Members: Hammer!
Mr Michelo: Mr Chairperson, around 2016, during the Presidential by-election, some hon. Ministers stayed in their offices illegally and received salaries “taxpayers’ money”. The courts ruled and when I came on the Floor of this House and asked them when they were going to pay that money back, I was told that a certain well-wisher paid for them. The ACC should follow that issue up because the people of Zambia are still not satisfied. They want to know who the well-wisher who paid that money is. We also want to see the receipt and the source of money because we suspect that the money that was used to pay for those hon. Ministers was corruptly acquired. They should go back and reinvestigate that matter.
Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Sit down!
Mr Michelo: Sir, coming to the issue of tax evasion, there are many foreigners here, especially those in the mining business. These companies should be followed so that we see which ones are paying these taxes.
Mr Chairperson, we have tax collectors under our councils. The ACC should make sure it checks those officers. We know that a majority of them learnt corruption when it was extremely decorated under the PF regime. Some of them are still moving with two receipt books. So, the ACC should check on the councils so that money is utilised diligently.
Sir, I repeat that we want the ACC to go back and check all the Auditor-General’s Reports, so that whoever was involved in any corrupt activity must be arrested, taken to court and convicted. We want to see more convictions, especially of people from the previous regime. As we were campaigning before we formed this Government, we were campaigning on the basis that the PF was too corrupt and even the young ones knew that it was a corrupt Government.
Laughter
Mr Michelo: We want the ACC to do justice to the people who looted this country. All the people who belonged to the PF, who were involved in corruption must go to jail. This is my plea and that of the people of Bweengwa Constituency.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate this important Vote. As we debate this important Vote, people must learn to listen and listen well.
Sir, I support this particular Vote and support the women and men working in this commission. They are under severe stress. More often than not, they go out there to follow-up on reports and end up with nothing. As they deliver reports to some institutions, they are told to go back and find something as it is not possible to find nothing. However, when there is nothing, there is nothing. No matter how many times you may go there to look and sniff, there will be nothing.
Madam Chairperson, corruption –
Hon. Government Members: Madam!
Laughter
Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson –
Hon. Government Member: How many drinks?
Mr Chilangwa: It is a slip of the tongue. I am not like you.
Madam Chairperson –
Laughter
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I would like to call upon the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to check on all three wings of Government. We have the Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary. In all these wings, there are issues that it must zero-in on. We know of stories where some colleagues in the Judiciary are being called to Lusaka from their stations. They sit with prosecutors, witnesses and state agents to doctor how certain convictions should be arrived at.
Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Chilangwa: The ACC should take special interest. It is its duty and responsibility to take a special interest in such issues. It is –
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Member, as you debate, avoid talking directly to the members of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and do not point at them. I think you are guided, hon. Member.
Mr Chilangwa: I have always said you are a good man, Mr Chairperson. Thank you for your guidance. If you were to go into the recent past –
Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!
Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, let me thank you, most sincerely, for allowing this point of order on Hon. Nickson Chilangwa, Member of Parliament for Kawambwa. I rise on this point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65(b), which directs us to ensure that the information that we provide should not only be truthful but factual and verifiable.
Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kawambwa has made a statement, which is ultra viresto the doctrine of the separation of powers to the Judiciary, the Executive and ourselves here, where he is alleging that judges and prosecutors are gathering at night to determine how convictions will be secured.
Mr E. Tembo: It is true!
Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, there is a greenhorn there saying that it is true and this is precisely why I am standing up here politely to ask whether the hon. Member is in order to make that statement without adducing the evidence of what he is saying, lest, he completely damages the fabric of the judiciary in our country.
Sir, I seek your serious ruling on this matter, that he must, as a matter of fact, be compelled to adduce that evidence, following which it may be justifiable for him to face Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia which is abusing his privileges …
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Mr Nkombo: … of having the freedom to say anything he wishes to.
Sir, is he in order not to produce that evidence that judges …
Mr Kangombe: Let him stand behind the Bar!
Mr Nkombo: … are sitting at night with prosecutors, and other unknown people to secure convictions?
I seek your ruling, Sir.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Chilangwa was out of order if he said that people were meeting to orchestrate judgments in the night. He is an old hon. Member of Parliament and he knows that such utterances should not be made because they attract public outrage. The hon. Member was out of order.
Hon. Member, as you debate, debate as guided. May the hon. Member continue.
Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your guidance.
Sir, when I speak, people feel weak. When I speak, people feel caught in the wake of hopelessness.
Laughter
Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson,earlier on, we debated the Ministry of Health Vote. We sat like this last year and we appropriated resources for the procurement of medicines and other supplies for the people. We were told that by the first, second or third quarter of this year, we would have drugs. I call upon the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to interrogate this issue. Why is it that medical supplies and medicines were not procured at the right time? What was so fishy? What is going on?
I am glad that we are dealing with the Chairperson, who has a constituency, and I do not want to drag him into my debate. The outcry out there today is about fertiliser and farming inputs. Money was appropriated for this very important exercise last year about this time. We are in November and we have not seen any inputs in our constituencies. We may argue here but peopleout there are listening. People are tuned in to Parliament Television and they are watching what is being debated here.
Mr Chairperson, I appeal to the ACC to take special interest, on the rationale behind cancelling contracts, one after the other, and it should find out if the people who have been given the contracts have the capacity. How did they get those contracts? Is there anything fishy? Is there anything we should look at? Is there anything that the Zambian people need to know? These are the issues that we must deal with now.
Mr Chairperson, as we talk about the corruption that happened in the past, it is important that it is investigated. Yes, let us go back and investigate the corruption that happened in the past. It is important that we go beyond 2011 –
Mr Mtolo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mtolo: Sir, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. I am listening to what is proving to be rather a good debate from Hon. Nickson Chilangwa. However, why is he misleading the country by saying they have not seen any fertiliser, when farmers in almost all the constituencies are now redeeming the vouchers and getting fertiliser. We do not deny the fact that it was late, but to say they have not seen any is wrong because that is misleading. The world is listening. Any means that there is nothing. Which hon. Member here would stand and say there is no fertiliser in his/her constituency?
Mr Chairperson, can Hon. Chilangwa be corrected because this is the second time he is being told to debate in a manner that will enable us reason with him.
Mr Chairperson, I seek you serious ruling. Is he in order to mislead us?
The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Chilangwa, you know very well that Standing Order No. 65 states that you have to be factual in your debate. You even said that I have a constituency. I do not think it is good to mislead the public, and especially yourself. Members of the public know if they have fertiliser or not. It is not good for one to mislead oneself. So, you are completely out of order.
You may continue.
Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I am very glad and I withdraw the statement that is misleading, that there is fertiliser which has been supplied and all the farmers are receiving the fertiliser because I do not want the farmers out there to one day say Chilangwa you never spoke for us. The hon. Minister was right that the fertiliser is readily available. The people of Zambia are listening and I have spoken for them. However, I have been compelled to withdraw the statement because I have been told that the fertiliser has arrived and it is there. The Zambian people are the judges and they know who is telling the truth and who is not.
Mr Chairperson, having said that, yes, indeed, corruption that happened in the past must be investigated. I also want to state that corruption in Zambia did not start in 2011. There were misgivings about the people who participated in privatisation and that must be investigated. There have been misgivings on how some companies were contracted under a contract called formula one, and that must be investigated.
Mr Chairperson, it must also be investigated why up to today, hon. Ministers who are supposed to stay in Government houses are still living in their private entities and getting an allowance. One is only paid an allowance when one does not have a Government house. It is unacceptable, and the ACC must be asked to investigate. How is it that at the community house, security has been enhanced? Under which Vote? That must be investigated. We cannot gloss over these things. It is unacceptable one year down the road that our President is living at the community house and not at Nkwazi meanwhile people around –
Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, it is unacceptable that people can continue saying point of order when they know they are wrong.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Mung’andu will be followed by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development and Her Honour the Vice-President will wind up debate.
Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Chairperson, I must state that corruption not only in our country but world over particularly in Africa is a cancer that has led to the suffering of the masses.
Mr Chairperson, corruption comes in so many forms. There is what we call petty corruption, which is very common. Unfortunately, petty corruption affects those who are under privileged. Most of these people are the ones in our remand prisons and correctional facilities, probably because they simply exchanged a K1,000. There is what we call grand corruption, particularly associated with the bourgeoisies.
Interruptions
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, can you advise these greenhorns to listen. What I am stating here –
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, what did you say?
Mr Mung’andu: I said advise the greenhorns to listen. They cannot be passing comments when I am discussing an issue that I am so passionate about, which is corruption.
The Deputy Chairperson: Maybe, because I am Ngoni, I do not understand. What is a greenhorn?
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, I request the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to define the word. He used that word and I repeated it. So, let him help us. He is a teacher of English. He can interpret for us.
The Deputy Chairperson: Two wrongs do not make a right. Why should you repeat something that you do not understand?
Mr Mung’andu: I thought it is word that is allowed.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Why repeat something that you know is wrong?
Mr Mung’andu: This is the reason we love you, Mr Chairperson. Thank you for allowing me to proceed.
Mr Chairperson, we should be very serious with grand corruption which comes in a very lethal and damaging form, particularly white-collar corruption. Yes, at the moment, people might not be happy with the way the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) is handling corruption cases in the country. Therefore, corruption cases should not only be looked when people are out of office.That is where we are missing it.
Mr Chairperson, it starts with one’s integrity. If I were working for the ACC, know that a serving cabinet minister or permanent secretary (PS) is involved in corruption and I want to investigate them but the ACC stops me, trust me, I would resign. That is me. I would never work for such an institution that is making me not discharge my duties.
Mr Chairperson, what I am trying to say is why we are seeing the ACC particularly investigating those who were in public offices after they leave office? The ACC is the one promoting corruption. The entire security system should start working on not investigating public officers after they leave office. If there was corruption in the past, it should be investigated. We cannot have people calling us, on the left, corrupt, yet they have not convicted a single person.
Interjections
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, I will say the ACC is really seriously fighting corruption if I see directors being investigated.
Mr Chairperson, someone mentioned a very important point. For the information of those telling me to wait, in case they don’t know, it is not easy to convict a hon. Minister because they are not involved in signing any documents.
Interjections
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, we will only know that the ACC is serious in the fight against corruption when we start seeing finance directors, accountants, controlling officers and procurement officers being arrested and charged. As it is, we are calling it a ‘political witch hunt’ because it is following those who were cabinet ministers when it knows too well that they were not even able to initiate a procurement process. The people who initiate procurements are technocrats. That is what we want to see.
Mr Chairperson, on white-collar crime, I take the debate of the Leader of the Opposition as my own. We should look at the intentions. Are the people who are making decisions now making them in the interest of the nation?
Mr Musanje: They are good ones.
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, making decisions to favour private entities is the worst case of grand corruption. For example, we are celebrating K25.7 million of Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Are we aware that we are losing hundred times of that amount of money through the mines? Why is the Government so insistent on forgoing US$ 200 million per annual from the mines? Is it not getting kickbacks through such initiatives?
Hon. PF Members: They are.
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, these are the issues that the ACC should be interrogating. The Government’s justification is that it wants copper production to increase, but the ACC should go and check figures. Copper production levels are going down, yet we are giving more concessions.
Mr Chairperson, I request the ACC to pay attention to some of the contracts and incentives. The ACC should investigate if the incentives are really meant to boost our economy or are to benefit few individuals. Once we have a situation where even a serving permanent secretary (PS) is arrested and convicted, then we will know that, indeed, the fight against corruption is on course as opposed to following matters that they, as investigating wings, know will not yield any result. I will give an example, as someone mentioned, where a 50 X 50 plot that was rightly offered to someone: How can that be called corruption?
Mr Chairperson, we do not want to see the ACC following individuals or cases that they know too well are not going to yield any result. It is better it stops because it is wasting people’s money. Can we stop the white-collar crime at planning stage? I am a proponent of prevention is better than cure. Why should we wait for people to commit a crime then we start following them? It even becomes more expensive. Therefore, before it shoots, can we nip it in the bud.
Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, let me tell my hon. Colleagues that what they are doing to others today will be done to them. They will be unfortunate if some of us will still be in the Government because we will not waste time. We will not play the monkey tricks they are playing. They will go to prison within a month. I can guarantee them that because we have all the evidence. We will be methodical. We will follow all their trails and will not even waste time. So, what they do to others shall be done to them.
Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I encourage the ACC, investigative wings and security wings to be serious on the journey on the fight against corruption.
I submit.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Mr Chairperson, let me thank you more sincerely for allowing me to debate Vote 87, the Anti-Corruption Commission and to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for increasing the allocation to this watchdog institution.
Mr Chairperson, let me start by saying that as a man lives, so shall he die. If you live by the sword, you are going to die by the sword. Further, I also want to ride on the principle of one’s innocence until proven guilty.
Mr Mufalali: Chilangwa, where are you going?
Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the fight against corruption has been invigorated by the President and his team. Let make a statement, here, that at the point when the President took over office and whenever he addressed the public, be it in Parliament or anywhere, he first assured Cabinet Ministers that should we be found on the wrong side of the law, we would be on our own.
Mr Chairperson, the statement by the President is very serious and I want you to know that in many of our engagements with the Head of State, he always says that if we found ourselves on the wrong side of the law, we must be sure that we are on our own.
Mr Chairperson, let me now come to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) that I think requires being encouraged. To belong to that institution is not a pleasurable thing. It is just by virtue of running such an institution, you become isolated from the public. Just by accepting to run a watchdog institution is risky because the corrupt are extremely strong. So, it is service to the country.
Mr Chairperson, I congratulate the newly appointed Director General, Mr Tom Shamakamba. Once he is ratified, he will go to a place where he will find big shoes that were once occupied by our ably ratified, Mr Gilbert Phiri.
Mr Chairperson, now, I see some apprehensions that ACC is probably just targeting those who occupied office sometime in the past. It is an undisputable fact that we have had people who were serving at the highest level of the Government and have been summoned to the ACC.
I am not saying they are guilty. We have had at least a Permanent Secretary (PS) who was called to the ACC while he was serving. So, where is the idea coming from that people are only being called once they leave the tour of duty?
Mr Chairperson, I still ride on the principle of innocence until one is proven guilty. Therefore, we need to be friendly to the ACC. We have whistle-blowers in our society. It is true that some whistle-blowers will come based on vindictiveness, vengeance or without facts. However, that should not worry you at all if you are a victim of such because there is a principle of innocence until one is proven guilty.
Mr Chairperson, evidence cannot be manufactured. To be found with a prima facie case, it means that some evidence has been gathered around and you are due for trial. I am shocked and almost jumping out of my skin when I heard an hon. Member of Parliament saying, “Wait until we come back”. We know that dreams do come true quite alright, but they do not come true easily. Hon. Mung’andu, my brother and friend, says once they come back or whenever they come back, they will jail some of us within one month. That is called extrajudicial.
Mr Chairperson, the President has been very clear that we should slow down the pace. Everyone who needs to go and acquit themselves in the court of law must be given a fair chance. The wheels of justice normally go on turning, but they will find you. They will find me as we get along. The Judiciary, who are the people who prosecute these cases that the ACC brings, have to be careful. They should not just come and arrest you, Hon. Mung’andu, brother and friend, and the next day convict you. That is called kangaroo.
Sir, now I am beginning to make the nexus and connecting what the hon. Member of Parliament for Kawambwa was talking about when he says people – you know, hallucination is a state of mind. You can actually be dreaming that people are meeting at night, planning and conniving on how they should convict people. I have never heard of such. Even at the time when Zambia went through a depression of the worst Government ever since it become a republic under the PF, we never ever thought that judges would go and sit and connive how to convict someone. How do you do that? You convict someone based on evidence and nothing else.
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: So, how then in the world can – and you know, it does not end there. I want to give the hon. Colleagues some levels of comfort that even if the magistrate, for instance, convicts you, you have an opportunity to appeal to a higher and higher court, until you get to the final court of jurisdiction; the Supreme Court. At that point, you know without any doubt that you are guilty because there is that window for an appeal.
Mr Chairperson, if you are now going to operate based on vindictiveness, as I have seen that people will be jailed within one month of beginning a case, how will you assemble the evidence? Normally, crooks hide the evidence. They are powerful, that is what I said. They are lethal and most times they come for you. This is why I respect the ACC. Crooks will come for you and will also go for the witnesses. They also interfere with witnesses. So, hon. Colleagues need to calm down. They should take a chill pill. If you are finding yourself in that situation whereby the ACC has made you their guest, just go and do the right thing and acquit yourself. Get a good lawyer. You can even get a bad one because a conviction is based on nothing but evidence.
Sir, I just want to give some comfort and solace to those who may be thinking that this is persecution, rather than prosecution that it is prosecution all the way and no one is insulated from prosecution. If today I soil myself in the office that I run, I should be held accountable. Many soiled themselves when they were collecting government contracts and they are seated in here as I am talking. We just cancelled all those road contracts. We cancelled them because they started now playing games and saying, “No, we have managed now to break through”. We cancelled all of them and that is information for hon. Members to know. So, let us see now how they got these contracts and we will invite them to the ACC.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, according to our Standing Order 65, information that one provides should not only be factual, but verifiable.
Mr Chairperson, President Hakainde Hichilema is on record, and I follow him religiously, saying he will not arrest anyone until all evidence is gathered. I can assure him that by the time we will arrest him, we will have all the evidence. Why should it take more than a month?
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, you are debating now.
Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development in order to tell the nation that the PF, in the past ten years, was the worst Government since independence…
Hon. UPND Members: Yes!
Mr Mung’andu: …when he knows better, for he is enjoying a new building constructed by the PF; he is enjoying new roads constructed by the PF like the nice Turnpike/Mazabuka Road. Probably, his Government will not even do 1 per cent in ten yearsof what the PF did.
Is he in order to name a Government that was taking fertiliser to the people on time andin whose reign hospitals hadmedicines, among other things, as the worst since independence?
I seek your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: Since the hon. Minister is part of the Executive, maybe it is during his on his office review that he is basing his judgement.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: We may not know, but maybe the judgement that the hon. Minister has formed is premised on the records that he has seen as a minister. Maybe he is talking from a well-informed position.
May Her Honour the Vice-President wind up debate.
Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Nkandu: On the Vice-President?
The Vice-President: On me?
Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Members who have debated this Vote. Hon. Members debate with such energy and passion, butsometimes the energy is misdirected or it totally goes the wrong way. However, as presiding officers,you have guided us that we allow them to speak so that they vent out whatever, some of it being imagination, as somebody said.
Mr Chairperson, I do appreciate the debate that has taken placeon the ACC. That there are many expectations from hon. Membersis what you get. However, some of them are totally away from the mandate of the ACC.
Mr Chairperson, thedebate began with the Leader of the Opposition in the House who spoke with a lot of energy. I think he scattered our minds. We did not know what exactly he was talking about. He said the anti-corruption fight should not be narrowed, but broadened. In his being idea of being broad, he defined or gave another law.The ACC works within the law. You do not go and work beyond the mandate that is given in the law.
Mr Chairperson, I tried to follow his debate and heard things like even issues of policy becomematters of corruption. Are they justiciable? Even legislation becomes a matter of corruption? I think he scattered us all over the place and some people may have failed to come back.
Mr Chairperson, corruption in our country or, indeed, under the United Nations (UN), is well defined. In our own Act, corruption is soliciting, accepting, obtaining, promising, offering of gratification by way of another person, temptation, inducement or abuse of public office for the advantage of someone, meaning the public good for one individual. That is what it means.
So, I do not know whether that is the law or not. After all,the hon.Members here are lawmakers. So, how does one refer to legislation as an act of corruption? That can only be so if this entire House is called corrupt. We should be careful when we debate or say things like that. I think the hon. Member’s debate was more on the political side.The hon. Member made an appeal through a political sense and not a real sense. Corruption is a serious matter. You cannot go on to debate, for example, issues of how Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) can be handled, which we can attribute to corrupt behaviour of the previous people, who made us reach where we are today. This Government has taken over and it is trying to find solutions but people still want to lump the issue of corruption on the Government. Truly, there might have been corruption but not by this Government. So, we must be careful as we debate. Let us not abuse the trust that people have for us.
Mr Chairperson, sometimes, rather than debating real issues, we just expose ourselves. When hon. Members talk about night meetings or bring in issues about law fair to this House, yes, that might have been done before and not today. Everything that comes here must be for the common good. Therefore, all of us must look at it and see what really happened. Sometimes, we want to continue to debate and influence the people out there that this House is not doing the right thing. We have debated the issue of appointments. People have continuously debatedthe issue of appointments and subjecting contracts to audit institutions. This has been done in this House. Allegations that all contracts have been done under single sourcing, limited or indeed open bidding, is an issue we have debated in this House. This is a law that the hon. Members have made themselves and there is nothing corrupt about that. Therefore, it is not correct to make certain institutions or members of the community look like they are corrupt.
Mr Chairperson, the hon. Leader of Opposition debated the issue of Grand Thornton Zambia. Who is the owner of Grand Thornton Zambia? We can follow that up. The hon. Member can follow it up by going to the Patents and Company Registration Agency (PACRA) and see who the owner of Grand Thornton Zambia is. Please, let us stop this. In this House, we debate things. We do not debate in perpetuity. If this House cannot resolve issues, we have another institution that can do it. If they want the public to think that we can go on talking about the same thing, the presiding officers are here to guide us. Certain debates that we are bringing are not related to matters on the Floor.
Mr Chairperson, I appreciate Hon. Samakayi, who talked about the Life Style Audit. I think that the commission is working on how it is going to work on this law to bring amendments. Hopefully, some of these things could be filtered in. Indeed globally, people are struggling with the issue of corruption. This Government is doing a lot about it.
Mr Chairperson, investigations are a mandate of the Anti-Corruption Commission(ACC). When investigating, it keeps the investigations private. However, what is happening now is that when you are called by the ACC for questioning, you go on an anthill to announce that you have been called. It becomes a public issue and the investigative wing is forced to also come out. That is not the way investigations should be looked at. When you are called for investigations, you keep it private; no one should know. This is why you are making yourselves look criminal.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: An investigation is not a conviction, but when you come out and talk about it, Zambians will think you are guilty. The one being investigated causes that problem, but that is not the way the ACC works. For example, when the ACC calls me for investigations, it is private. Sorry, we do not debate ourselves, but I think very few people know that I was called because it was private. When the ACC saw that there was no evidence, it let me go.
Mr Chairperson, this year, the ACC carried out over 1,000 investigations and for the 200 cases, there was some merit in moving on. So, when someone is being investigated, that does not mean that he/she is convicted or is guilty. However, the officers continue investigating and ensuring that work is done. If someone is afraid of investigations, what does he/she want? There is no need to be afraid, not even when you are taken to court. The ACC only takes someone for prosecution after adducing enough evidence. Why are we afraid? What else do we want it to do?
Colleagues, you will be taken not because you are politicians but because there is a question on your conduct; you did something that looked like a crime. When you converted a public good into a personal good, you should go and explain. We have not said that investigations will end with the previous regime. As the President said, there will be no sacred cows. If one has evidence, why not report to the ACC? One should not come here and say things without evidence. It is not helping anybody. People should report to the ACC, and it will investigate.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 87 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Mr Mung’andu rose.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, you indicated when I had passed the Vote and I cannot go back. So, let us make progress, and let us not bring politics in whatever we do. When I said, any debate, any objection, I looked at my gadget and there was no indication.
Let us now move to Vote 51.
Order!
(Debate adjourned)
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HOUSE RESUMED
[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]
(Progress reported)
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The House adjourned at 1842 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 30thNovember, 2022.
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