Friday, 16th December, 2022

Friday, 16^thDecember, 2022

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

ZAMBIAN PARLIAMENTARY CAUCUS ON ENVIRONMENT AND CLIMATE CHANGE MEETING

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I inform the House that the Ministry of Tourism has been authorised to confer with selected hon. Members of the Zambian Parliamentary Caucus on Environment and Climate Change (ZPCECC), especially those from constituencies near or in national parks or game management areas (GMAs), with the status of Honorary Wildlife Police Officers as part of the efforts to combat human/animal conflict.

This special event will be conducted by the Minister of Tourism, Hon. Rodney Sikumba, today, Friday, 16^th December, 2022, at the main entrance area, here, at the Main Parliament Buildings, at 1040 hours.

In this regard, all the selected hon. Members of Parliament are requested to be at the venue on time. Other hon. Members are invited to witness the event.

I thank you.

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR MUNSANJE, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MBABALA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, MRS MASEBO, ON ISSUES SURROUNDING DRUGS SUPPLIED BY HONEY BEE PHARMACY LIMITED

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving the good people of Mbabala an opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, we have recently seen headlines of newspaper articles and other media on products supplied by Honey Bee Pharmacy Limited.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, the matter is directed at which hon. Minister?

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, at the hon. Minister of Health, but since she is not in the House, the Leader of Government Business in the House today.

Madam Speaker, we read that your Public Accounts Committee of the National Assembly cleared the issues related to the drugs supplied by Honey Bee Pharmacy Limited. As a Member of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services and the Ruling Party health team, I checked with the Public Accounts Committee and found out that it has not heard or cleared any reports related to the Honey Bee supplied drugs. Hon. Members of the Public Accounts Committee are here, and can confirm that.

Madam Speaker, when we saw all those headlines about us having cleared those drug issues, we checked with the Zambia Medicines Regulatory Authority (ZAMRA) and found out that the authority is mandated to safeguard our health, as citizens. It has to ensure that only drugs or medical supplies that pass quality control tests are allowed to come into the country to be used by citizens. In other words, these medical supplies should be fit for consumption by citizens. The authority is there to protect us.

Madam Speaker, we found out that from those contested 5000 kits that were brought in, only two out of thirty-five items per health kit were cleared in this country. Further, only twenty-three items passed the medical and laboratory tests, both here in Zambia and at the World Health Organisation’s (WHO) Pre-Qualification Laboratory in Zimbabwe. So, only seven items passed, and twenty-three failed the test. That means that Zambians were subjected to consuming unfit drugs and supplies.

Madam Speaker, my urgent issue is to find out from the hon. Minister of Health and, indeed, yourself whether we have instituted any measures to check on how many Zambians have been affected by these products that were unfit for human consumption. The ZAMRA report clearly indicates that these drugs and supplies were unfit for human consumption because of the way they failed on the requirements. In fact, some drugs were turning black while others had malt and bad odour. Some of them had cracks and the like.

Madam Speaker, it was shown that some tablets could not dissolve in the human body when swallowed. The tablet remained what we call in Tonga, mupengela. It remained un-dissolved. Such were the medicines Zambians were subjected to. We have always said on the Floor of this House that they were unfit. They did not meet the medical requirements and set standards. As such, we need to understand what happened. We need a forensic audit to know how many Zambians were affected and to what extent these kits caused devastation to the lives of Zambians.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: Unfortunately, hon. Member for Mbabala, that matter does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. Therefore, it is not admitted.

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RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

COMPLAINT BY DR C. K. KALILA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUKULU EAST PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST MR R. NAKACHINDA OVER STATEMENTS ATTRIBUTED TO MR R. NAKACHINDA IN AN ARTICLE ENTITLED “STOP BEING EMOTIONAL, NAKACHINDA TELLS SPEAKER” PUBLISHED IN THE DAILY NATION NEWSPAPER

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have a ruling to render against Mr Raphael Nakachinda, an outsider. At this point, I direct the Serjeant-At-Arms to bring Mr Raphael Nakachinda before the Bar of the House. I also instruct the Sergeant-At-Arms to take the Speaker’s Mace and to go and stand behind him.

Mr Raphael Nakachinda was escorted to the Bar by the Serjeant-At-Arms.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, this matter was commenced on Wednesday, 6^th October, 2021, when Dr C. K. Kalila, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu East Constituency, raised a point of order. In his point of order against Mr R. Nakachinda, a Member of the Patriotic Front (PF) Party, Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, cited an article entitled “Stop being emotional, Nakachinda tells Speaker”, which was published in the Daily Nation newspaper, Issue No. 3074 and dated Tuesday, 5^th October, 2021. In the said article, Mr R. Nakachinda is alleged to have reflected on the impartiality of the Speaker in the discharge of her duties.

In the point of order, Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, asked the following questions:

whether Mr R. Nakachinda was in order to cast aspersions on the Speaker and her office, thereby calling into question her impartiality and character; and
whether by making the statements attributed to him in the Daily Nation newspaper article, Mr R. Nakachinda, was not in contempt of the House.

Hon. Members, this matter has been inordinately delayed for several reasons as set out below:

on 3^rd November, 2021, I referred the matter to the Committee on Privileges and Absences for detailed examination. Further, in line with the Parliamentary Practice and Procedure, and in accordance with the rules of natural justice, on the same date, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to the Editor-in-Chief of the Daily Nation Newspaper Limited requesting the newspaper to confirm whether the statements alleged to have been made by Mr R. Nakachinda in the article were correctly attributed to him. The Office of the Clerk also wrote to Mr R. Nakachinda requesting him to confirm whether the alleged statement published in the Daily Nation newspaper was correctly attributed to him;
in his response, the Executive Director of the Daily Nation Newspaper Limited confirmed that Mr R. Nakachinda was correctly quoted in the story and that the statements attributed to him were spoken to Mr Simon Muntemba, a reporter at the Daily Nation Newspaper Limited. Additionally, on 8^th November, 2021, Mr R. Nakachinda requested for further and better particulars regarding the letter written to him by the Office of the Clerk. In particular, he requested the Office of the Clerk to advise what portion of the article in question was contemptuous, in line with Section 19 (e) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia;
the Office of the Clerk wrote another letter to Mr R. Nakachinda, on 15^th November, 2021, providing the further and better particulars as requested. In his response, on 20^th November, 2021, Mr R. Nakachinda sought further clarification on whether the letter from the Office of the Clerk meant that he should not exercise his freedom of expression or raise any issue against or criticise any person;
on 9^th December, 2021, the Committee on Privileges and Absences met to consider the matter and it was resolved that the Committee could not consider the matter because Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, used the wrong mode of commencement. The Committee observed that from the memorandum that was before it, Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, raised his point of order based on the National Assembly of Zambia, Standing Orders, 2021, which only applied to hon. Members of Parliament and not to outsiders. Further, the Committee resolved that Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, be advised to lodge a complaint, citing the correct provision of the law;
acting on the guidance of the Committee, Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, lodged a complaint against Mr Nakachinda. The Office of the Clerk wrote another letter dated 1^st March, 2022, to Mr R. Nakachinda informing him about the complaint and requested him to appear before the Committee on 3^rd March, 2022. On the same day, Mr R. Nakachinda responded that he was not going to avail himself before the Committee because he was not a Member of the House and, therefore, he was not bound by the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2021.

On 4^th March, 2022, the Office of the Clerk wrote to Mr Nakachinda informing him that Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, had lodged a complaint citing a breach of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act. In response by letter dated 14^th March, 2022, Mr R. Nakachinda inquired whether the complaint was new and whether the initial matter had been concluded, because the Hon. Madam Speaker had not ruled on the matter;

on 24^th March, 2022, the Office of the Clerk wrote to Mr R. Nakachinda requesting him to appear before the Committee on 29^th March, 2022. This letter from the Office of the Clerk was accompanied by summons. Mr R. Nakachinda failed to appear before the Committee;
on 29^th March, 2022, the Office of the Clerk wrote to Mr Nakachinda requesting him to appear before the Committee on 31^st March, 2022. This letter was also accompanied by summons. When he appeared on 31^st March, 2022, Mr R. Nakachinda was accompanied by his lawyers who raised a number of preliminary issues. As a result, the Committee adjourned the matter in order to judiciously determine the issues raised by the lawyers;
on 23^rd June, 2022, Mr R. Nakachinda was summoned to appear before the Committee on 30^th June, 2022. When he appeared, Mr R. Nakachinda informed the Committee that he had not been advised of the decision of the Committee or the Speaker and that for that reason, he was not clear on which matter he had been called to respond to;
on 8^th July, 2022, the Office of the Clerk wrote to Mr R. Nakachinda, advising him of the complaint that had been lodged by Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, and requesting him to confirm whether or not the statement in the article was correctly attributed to him. In response, by letter dated 13^th July, 2022, Mr R. Nakachinda’s lawyers, Messrs. Makebi Zulu Advocates, advised that based on the National Assembly of Zambia, Standing Orders, the Committee could not be both judge and jury in the same cause by giving the complainant guidance on what provisions of the law to rely on and subsequently make a determination on the same matter; and
hon. Members, in other instances, despite being summoned to appear before the Committee, Mr R. Nakachinda was either untraceable or will fully unavailable to appear before the Committee.

Hon. Members, it is clear from the above narration that Mr R. Nakachinda caused the delay in concluding this matter.

Hon. Members, the complaint by Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, raises the issue of a person making statements reflecting on the character or impartiality of the Speaker, in the discharge of her duties.

Hon. Members Article 88(2) of the Constitution, Cap. 1 of the Laws of Zambia, empowers citizens to comment on a deliberation, statement or decision of the National Assembly. However, the right of a citizen to comment on a deliberation, statement or decision is not absolute, but subject to certain limitations such as respect of the rights and liberties of other persons. This is similar to the right of a person to exercise his or her right to freedom of expression, which places a responsibility on that person not to infringe on the rights and privileges of others. In that regard, criticism against the Office of the Speaker should not be offensive, insulting, derogatory, or founded on baseless assertions or aspersions.

Further, the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act Chapter 12 of the Laws of Zambia provides for contempt. In particular, section 19 (e) provides as follows:

“19.(e) Any person shall be guilty of an offence who commits any other act of intentional disrespect to or with reference to the proceedings of the Assembly or of a committee of the Assembly or to any person presiding at such proceeding.”

Additionally, prominent writers on parliamentary practice and procedure, S. L. Shakdher and M. N. Kaul in their book entitled Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Seventh Edition, New Delhi, Lok Sabha, 2016, state as follows at page 278:

“Contempt of the House may be defined generally as “any act or omission which obstructs or impedes either House of Parliament in the performance of its functions, or which obstructs or impedes any member or officer of such House in the discharge of his duty, or which has a tendency, directly or indirectly, to produce such results, even though there is no precedent of the offence. Hence, if any, act though not tending directly to obstruct or impede the House in the performance of its functions, has a tendency to produce this result indirectly by bringing the House into odium, contempt or ridicule or lowering its authority, it constitutes contempt.”

The same authors further state, at page 304, as follows:

“It is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House to make speeches, or to print or publish any libels, reflecting on the character or proceedings of the House or its committees …

Speeches and writings reflecting on the House or its committees or members are punished by the House as contempt on the principle that such acts “tend to obstruct the House in the performance of their functions by diminishing the respect due to them.”

Further, Erskine May, in his book entitled Parliamentary Practice, Twenty-second Edition, at page 123 states that:

“… reflections on the character of the Speaker or accusations of partiality in the discharge of his duties and similar charges against the Chairman of ways and means….have attracted penal powers of the Commons.”

The author, further, states at page 190, that:

“Reflections upon the character or actions of the speaker may be punished as breaches of privilege. His action cannot be criticised incidentally in debate or upon any form of proceeding except as a substantive motion.”

Hon Members, the former Speaker, Rt. Hon. Amusaa K. Mwanamwambwa, also had occasion to rule on a similar matter in the case of J. C. Mumbi-Phiri vs V. J.Mwaanga(Daily Parliamentary Debates, Tuesday, 19^th January, 2010). In that case, Mr Antonio Mwanza and Mr Stanford Kabwata made statements during a live broadcast on Muvi Television which had the effect of casting aspersions on the character of the Speaker. The matter was referred to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services and it was found that it is an offence for any person to cast aspersions on the Hon. Mr Speaker. The Committee established that the utterances made by Messers Antonio Mwanza and Stanford Kabwata were disrespectful to the Speaker and amounted to an affront on his authority, which is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House. In that regard, Mr Kabwata was admonished because he apologised to the Committee, while Mr A. Mwanza was reprimanded because he showed no remorse for his utterances. Mr A. Mwanza was further requested to apologise to the House.

From the foregoing authorities, it is clear that it is a breach of parliamentary privilege and contempt of the House for a person to make statements that reflect on the character or impartiality of the Speaker.

Hon. Members, the Committee on Privileges and Absences met and deliberated on the matter on Tuesday, 6^th December, 2022. During its deliberations, the Committee had recourse to the relevant newspaper article, the complaint and various correspondences between Mr R. Nakachinda and the Office of the Clerk. Additionally, Dr C. K. Kalila, Member of Parliament, appeared before the Committee and restated his complaint. Ms M. Mbewe, Executive Editor of the Daily Nation Newspaper also appeared before the Committee to confirm that the article was correctly attributed to Mr R. Nakachinda.

Hon. Members, after considering both written and oral submissions on the matter, and after lengthy deliberations, the Committee on Privileges and Absences established the following:

Mr R. Nakachinda, was uncooperative, because he took a legalistic approach, instead of simply responding to questions posed to him;
the Executive Editor of the Daily Nation Newspaper confirmed that Mr R. Nakachinda did utter the statement attributed to him in the article published by the Newspaper. Further, the Executive Editor submitted that Mr R. Nakachinda was called and he confirmed that he had indeed uttered the words as stated in the relevant article; and
Mr R. Nakachinda was guilty of making a contemptuous statement, because, despite being given an opportunity to provide evidence to the contrary, he had failed to prove otherwise.

In view of the foregoing, the Committee found the statement by Mr R. Nakachinda, in the newspaper article, a breach of parliamentary privilege and in contempt of the House.

Hon. Members, in arriving at the punishment to be meted out to Mr R. Nakachinda, the Committee noted that the offence committed was serious because the statement he made was carried in a newspaper of wide circulation. In addition, the Committee considered the inordinate delay it had taken for the Committee to reach a conclusion in this matter, on account of Mr R. Nakachinda’s actions.

The Committee, therefore, resolved that Mr R. Nakachinda, be reprimanded at the Bar of the Assembly in accordance with section 28(4) of the National Assembly, Powers and Privileges Act. I endorse this recommendation of the Committee.

Hon. Members, Section 28(4) states as follows:

“28. (4) If a person, not being a member, is found to have committed contempt, whether specified in section nineteen or otherwise, the Speaker shall order the person to appear before the Assembly and the Speaker shall, upon attendance, admonish or reprimand the person at the Bar of the Assembly.”

Hon Members, I will now proceed to address Mr Raphael Nakachinda.

Mr Raphael Nakachinda, the House is extremely displeased with your utterances against the hon. Madam Speaker and the House in general. In your misguided analysis of issues, you endeavoured to lower the dignity of the Office of the Speaker and the House. Furthermore, your arrogance and failure to appear before the Committee on Privileges and Absences is unprecedented. Such misconduct is unacceptable and unbefitting of your status as a person who previously served in this House, both as a backbencher and as hon. Minister.

I, therefore, urge you to reform and desist from such misconduct in future.

I now order you, Mr R. Nakachinda, to unreservedly apologise to the House for your disrespectful and contemptuous remarks.

You may proceed to read the apology.

Mr Nakachinda: Madam Speaker, I came with the greatest of respect for the public seat that you occupy.

Madam Speaker: Mr Nakachinda, just read the apology, please.

Mr Nakachinda: Madam Speaker, I was actually more or less tricked into coming here. I thought that –

Madam Speaker: Read the apology!

Mr Nakachinda: Reading the apology that I have not written would be a betrayal to my conscience, freedoms and rights of–

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Nakachinda, my guidance is that you should read the apology as required by the rules of the House. Apologise, if you do not, you would be committing another offence against the National Assembly.

Mr Nakachinda: Madam Speaker, respectively, you have read a ruling and I have heard and to –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Are you going to read the apology?

Mr Nakachinda: (Inaudible)…to honour and respect the Constitution of the Republic that clothes me with freedoms and rights–

Madam Speaker: Order!

Since you have refused to take my advice, I order you to leave the House. The National Assembly will take appropriate action in view of your refusal to apologise. Please leave the House!

Interruptions

Mr Nakachinda, left the Assembly Chamber through the main door.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us settle down and get back to business.

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BILLS

FIRST READING

THE ANTI-TERRORISM AND NON-PROLIFERATION (AMENDMENT), 2022

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, with your permission, before I make my presentation of the Bill, I want to express my disgust pertaining to the conduct of the individual who was summoned to appear before this honourable House. He has shown contempt. I hope this august House will not allow itself to be treated in the manner that it was treated this morning.

Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Anti-Terrorism and Non-Proliferation (Amendment) Bill, 2022.

Madam, the objects of this Bill is to amend the Anti-Terrorism and Non Proliferation Act, 2018, so as to:

revise some existing definitions and introduce new definitions in line with regional and international obligations;
revise the provisions relating to the administration of the Centre;
revise some of the offences in order to enhance implementation of the Act; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to the foregoing.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House in due course. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

I thank you.

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MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LEGAL AFFAIRS, HUMAN RIGHTS AND GOVERNANCE

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report on Zambia’s Accession to the Protocol of the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights on the Establishment of the African Court on Human and People’s Rights laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 15^th December, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the African Court on Human and Peoples’ Rights was established pursuant to Article 1 of the Protocol to the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights on the establishment of the African Court on Human and People’s Rights.

Madam Speaker, Zambia signed the protocol in June 1998, but until now, has not yet ratified and acceded to it. Since the adoption of the protocol, thirty-three countries out of the fifty-four-member States of the African Union (AU) have ratified the protocol establishing the court while only eight out of the thirty-three countries have deposited the declaration recognising the competence of the court to receive cases. In this regard, the Zambian Government has committed itself to acceding to the protocol and to signing the declaration recognising the court’s jurisdiction pursuant to Article 34(6) of the protocol.

Madam Speaker, allow me to put on record that all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee supported the accession to the protocol, but submitted both positive and negative ramifications of acceding to the protocol and signing the declaration thereof.

The details have been captured in the report, and I believe hon. Members have fully acquainted themselves with them. Suffice it to state that the decision that the Government intends to take will allow its citizens, and some non-governmental organisations, with observer status before the AU to sue the Government in the African Court for Human Rights subject to the exhaustion of domestic or local remedies.

Madam Speaker, some stakeholders observed that Zambia is a dualist state which means that for international law standards to have any effect on rights and obligations at national level, they require to be domesticated through legislative processes. In this regard, international instruments, such as the protocol establishing the African Court on Human and People’s Rights, require to be incorporated into domestic legislation in order for them to be domestically enforceable. To this end, your Committee urges the Government to put in place the necessary measures to domestic the protocol.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that the intention to accede to the protocol as well as the intention to make the declaration under Article 34(6) of the protocol is progressive and commendable. Your Committee is of the view that the proposal will benefit Zambia as a state by promoting the recognition and protection of human rights to the standards required by international best practice and international jurisprudence. Further, access to the mechanisms of the African Court will reinforce the State’s commitment to transparent and accountable governance.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to thank you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support and services rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations.

I beg to move.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Fube rose.

Mr Hamwaata: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I rise to second the Motion –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members on the far left, please –

Mr B. Mpundu: There is another seconder.

Madam Speaker: He came late, so that is why he was overlooked. Hon. Member for Chilubi, you came in late. So, somebody had to step into your shoes. May the hon. Member for Pemba proceed.

Mr Hamwaata: Madam Speaker, I rise to second the Motion which was moved by the Second Acting Chairperson of the Committee. In seconding this Motion, allow me to highlight two points that have been captured in the Committee Report.

Madam, the African Court had jurisdiction to determine –

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for according me this opportunity to raise this serious point of order that requires your attention and ruling.

Madam Speaker, my point of order is premised on Standing Order 235 on firearms and offensive weapons. Standing Order 235(3) states:

“For purposes of this Standing Order, an offensive weapon includes a knife, chisel, screwdriver, catapult, hammer, walking stick or any instrument meant for attack of any person.”

Madam, those who are trained like me, like Brig-Gen. Sitwala, for example, will agree that binoculars are used in operations to identify or locate the position of an enemy. I want to find out whether this House was in order to allow Mr Raphael Nakachinda to enter this House with binoculars, which I would term as one of the items used in locating an enemy in any situation.

I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The so-called offensive weapon was screened. It was the view of the security officers that there was no harm in Mr Nakachinda coming with his binoculars. So, he was allowed to come in with his binoculars. However, he is gone now. The rest will follow him because of the conduct that he exhibited.

Let us make progress.

Mr Hamwaata: Madam Speaker, the African Court has jurisdiction to determine issues relating not only to rights protected under the African Charter, but also to any human rights instruments ratified by a State. This means that a violation of any provision of a human rights treaty may be subject to any action before the court. As such, all clarifications of rights recognised in the charter are subject to the protection of the court and are justiciable.

In other words, civil and political rights, economic social and cultural rights, and collective or people’s rights, which are all provided for under the African Charter–

Madam Speaker: Can we have order, hon. Members! How are you going to debate if you are not listening to the debate?

Proceed, hon. Member for Pemba.

Mr Hamwaata: Madam Speaker, in other words, civil and political rights, economic social and cultural rights, and collective or people’s rights, which are all provided for under the African Charter or various human rights instruments which Zambia is a signatory to would be the subject of complaints before the African Court. To this extent, your Committee urges the Government to initiate the enhancement of the Bill of Rights to cover all rights provided for in the African Charter.

Madam Speaker, while appreciating that the requirement to exhaust local remedies forestalls the principle of state sovereignty under international law, your Committee does not agree with the stakeholders who submitted that the African Court is not an appellate court on the basis of this principle. Your Committee is of the view that the mere fact that a litigant who does not succeed in the domestic court could go to the African Court, gave it some semblance of an appellate court. In this regard, your Committee reiterates the need for the Government to domesticate the protocol and the rules of procedure thereof that provide for clear mechanisms through which citizens and Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) could approach the court.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I second the Motion.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: In local language, they would say ukusamwa …

Laughter

Madam Speaker:… meaning excitement or happiness. In Lozi it is Kutaba.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me to, first of all, thank your Committee for preparing the report, which is very important. I want to put on record that I was going to fail the people of Kamfinsa if I did not make any comment on this very important subject which borders on our domestic law, international law and how best these two should be able to speak to each other.

Madam Speaker, the report is very thorough and I take note of the following and I am happy that I had time to read the report. In 1998, a protocol was adopted, and 1998 is almost twenty-five years ago. Fortunately, the Zambian Government signed the protocol in the same year. In 2004, the protocol came into effect, meaning it took a bit of time before it could be implemented. In 2006, the African Court on Human and People’s Rights started operating. I am mentioning these dates because they will guide my debate as I conclude.

Madam Speaker, in 2016, this august House in which we are today, came up with a law called the Ratification of International Agreements Act No.34 of 2016, meaning there is a law in Zambia which guides how an international agreement should be adopted. Now, this is what the law says. The law says that the Vice-President of the Republic of Zambia must first of all get approval from Cabinet and when Cabinet approves an international agreement, it should come to Parliament for approval. So, what we are doing and discussing is in line with Act No. 34 of 2016.

Madam Speaker, Article 63(2)(e) of the Zambian Republican Constitution says that the Zambian Government has to adopt what has been agreed upon at an international level. In my left hand is the 1996 Republican Constitution, which was amended in 2016, and it provides for the Bill of Rights.

Madam Chairperson, the Bill of Rights has twenty articles. I followed the report of your Committee and it says that until we expand the Bill of Rights, until Part (3) which has eleven articles, and until Parliament follows the procedure for expanding the Bill of Rights – the Bill of Rights cannot be agreed upon by the 156 elected hon. Members of Parliament. We have no mandate to just quickly say change this and expand this. There is a law which is provided to do that.

Madam Speaker, when we stood in front of you, after being elected Members of Parliament, we swore to defend the Republican Constitution. The Republican Constitution is very instructive on what you need to do to change the Bill of Rights. So, here where we are seated, we are all advocates for human rights. Having come after being elected, we are all advocates of human rights. Actually, if we had a way, on all the rights that the Zambians want to have, we can easily agree today that the Government brings a Bill but there is a procedure that is provided for, for us to tamper with the Bill of Rights.

What am I saying, Madam Speaker? I agree with the intention of the Government, the African Union (AU) and all advocates of good governance because good governance cannot be achieved without respecting human rights. I am an advocate of human rights, but how are we going to implement the African Court on Human and People’s Rights, if our Constitution says we first of all need to change the Bill of Rights; that is what the law says. The law says that before the African Court is set up, and before we start domesticating international law in as far as human rights are concerned, we need to expand the Bill of Rights.

Madam Speaker, there are twenty articles in this document called the Republican Constitution. Someone may sue the Government for not providing a number of things for him/her. However, what if the right the person is asking for is not therein the Bill of Rights, what do we do? In agreeing with your Committee’s recommendation, the Government should tell us when it will initiate the process to expand the Bill of Rights. I will be the first one as ChristopherKang’ombe, Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa Constituency, to support the expansion of the Bill of Rights. When we expand the Bill of Rights, we will now conform to what is provided for in the law. In short, I agree that we need to provide for the African Court, but we cannot implement its activities for as long as the Bill of Rights is not expanded.

Madam Speaker, the international and domestic laws should be speaking to each other. We are not going to proceed without remembering what we sought to achieve in this Parliament. We agreed that we are going to defend the republican Constitution. By proceeding to do what we are doing, we are abrogating the republican Constitution. So, I urge the Government to quickly initiate the process of expanding the Bill of Rights. When we deal with the Bill of Rights, then we can come back and adopt this legislation.

Madam Speaker, the people of Kamfinsa have spoken and I thank you.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to add three or four sentences to the debate on the very important Motion, which is on the Floor of this House today.

Madam Speaker, human rights are our rights. They are quite important rights which are given to everyone at the point of birth and there is no negotiation about them. These rights are people’s rights. It is very important, ab initio, to put it very clear that those who have not studied human rights law are called activists. Only those who are authorities in human rights are called advocates.

Madam Speaker, Zambia is a party to a couple of protocols and one of them is the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). If these rights are not domesticated in this republic, they will not be enforceable and justiciable. This means that only those rights that are domesticated and are enshrined in our Constitution have force.

Madam Speaker, the other rights are the second-generation rights, which include the economic, social and cultural rights. Despite Zambia being a party to that covenant, those rights are not enshrined in our Constitution. Therefore, they cannot be enforceable. You cannot sue the Government for redress because these rights are not enshrined in our Constitution.

Madam Speaker, the last generation rights are the third-generation rights which include community rights like having better schools and clean water. Those rights, too, are not enshrined in our Constitution and therefore, cannot be enforced in this land.

Madam Speaker, Part III of our Constitution talks about the Bill of Rights. It is clearly stated and one can easily notice that only the civil and political rights are there. Those are the only rights that can be justiciable in our land. Going forward, when we talk of the African court, the rights that can be addressed by a regional African court are rights which the African continent has collectively agreed that all members shall subscribe to them. Further, those rights are the only rights which all members who subscribe to will seek for redress when there is a wrong committed either against the government or by the non-governmental organisations (NGOs) or advocates of human rights.

Arising from that fact, Madam Speaker, there are cases before the courts which were taken there by the citizens of this republic. They were adjudicated and judgment was passed. This means that the laws of the country can still give those organisations that felt afflicted justice if they feel that the republic of this country has violated their rights. Of course, it is not everyone who can sue or seek redress as an individual, but the Government and NGOs can do that. They can appeal what was adjudicated before in this country. The rights are very important. It will all depend on whether our Government, our country, has agreed to domesticate those rights found in the African charter or in our constitution.

Madam Speaker, the United Party for National Development (UPND) New Dawn Government is on record that there are some rights that are not enshrined in our Constitution, but it has already performing them in this land. One among others is the right to free education. Free education is not enshrined in our Constitution but we are already seeing the fruits of that policy. This right falls under second-generation rights. We are already seeing that. What we should make clear is that for any right to succeed before the courts of law, that right ought to be enshrined in the Constitution. It will all depend on how this House is going to look at the contents of the African court, whether indeed it is inevitable to open it the way it has been suggested by the movers. If indeed it is a plus, let the House suggest or decide whether to go that way or otherwise.

Madam Speaker, it is very important to indicate that all the rights that are international, regional or domestic should be respected, adhered to and enjoyed by everyone. It is very important also to indicate that these rights are not absolute; they can only be enjoyed to a certain extent. Beyond that, you cannot because these rights ought to be regulated so that the space for all citizens can be respected.

Madam Speaker, I have heard all the submissions that have been made. Hon. Colleagues in the Committee, I suggest that it is very important that these rights are applied, and we need to seek redress in an event that they are abrogated by anyone.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you so much. Let me start by adopting the debate by my two hon. Colleagues who have debated before me, hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa and the hon. Member for Namwala. They have made significant submissions on this matter.

Madam Speaker, let me get back to the submission that was made by the mover of the Motion. In his submission, he informed us that out of the forty-four member states of the African Union (AU), only thirty-three have ratified the protocol establishing the court. Out of these thirty-three, only eight member states have deposited the declaration recognising the competence of the court to receive cases. This should be the basis of our discourse. Why these numbers since 1998? If we as a country are going to ratify the protocol to join the twenty-five, then it will be an exercise in futility or, rather, an academic exercise.

Indeed, like my colleagues have stated, some of the rights that are enshrined in the African Charter such as social, economic and cultural rights are yet to be enshrined in the Constitution by expanding the current Bill of Rights.

Madam Speaker, it takes me to the debate we had about being systematic when we were dealing with he amendments to the Penal Code and the Criminal Procedure Code. I think what my hon. colleagues are just trying to say to the hon. Minister is that there is a need to provide an opportunity to deal with Part III of the Constitution so that these rights we are promoting are anchored in the Constitution. I know that even after we ratify this protocol, there will be a requirement for us to join the eight who have deposited their declaration and international instruments. However, before you do that, you have to demonstrate what you have done regarding local registration.

Madam Speaker, the submission we have from your Committee is very clear; that for any cases to be taken to this African Court, you must exhaust the local judicial remedies. So, how ready are we in this regard? We should not just be seen to be ratifying international protocols as international public relations. We must be practical. Yes, indeed, we agree with the Government’s desire to promote these cultural, economic and social rights of our citizens. However, we need to be systematic because at the end of the day, like I have said, these rights must be justiciable locally.

Madam Speaker, yes, there are certain privileges and benefits that have been highlighted in the report such as cross pollination of ideas by our local judicial systems, Africa and other countries and also giving an opportunity to our learned judges to interact with judges from other countries. Again, we must be systematic. The bottom line here, without belabouring the points that my colleagues have already spoken to, is that it comes back to the same thing.

Madam Speaker, let us just get to agree, both on your right and left, that it is time we provided an opportunity to revisit that missed opportunity of getting back to the people with the intention of expanding the Bill of Rights, which is Part III of the Constitution. That is what will form the instruments that go with the depositing of international protocol. So, we are not in argument, but what we are just saying is that we – in fact, the reason there was a decision to say all international protocols must pass through this august House for ratification was that this institution must check whether we have got a legal framework to domestic these international protocols. It was also to check if we, indeed, have a legal framework to ensure that what we are acceding to is going to be implemented locally and internationally.

Madam Speaker, that is the idea. So, we cannot start from the top going down. It will not help us. It is like climbing a tree from the top. So, let us just agree and do the right thing. The hon. Minister should create an opportunity, as he is dealing with the Constitutional reforms, and include that aspect of us getting to the people and letting them participant in expanding the Bill of Rights. Then, it will be meaningful to join the eight. I can understand that the challenges that we are facing here could be the same challenges the other twenty-five countries are facing. That is why it has taken long.

Madam Speaker, I think my hon. Colleagues were just short of saying, let us start dealing with dealing with Part III of the Constitution because that is what will demonstrate how committed we are in protecting and defending the rights that are enshrined in the African Charter.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving us the opportunity to submit our humble opinion. In addition to what other hon. Members have submitted, it looks like we have a lot of work to do before we can pass this Bill. The Bill is good. We definitely support it, but I think it has some areas that need to be worked on. To start with, as African nations, we have different traditions and cultures. That is the angle I thought I could bring into House.

Madam Speaker, having said that, I think the starting point should have been to do what may be the European would call introduce the law of subsidiarity where Zambia as a State will clearly indicate the areas that it needs to submit to the African Court which would become the premise on which any court action would be based. When we leave it open like that, I think the court might be found not to have jurisdiction to preside over most of the cases that might be taken there. So, my opinion is that we needed to start by knowing what exactly the Zambian State is submitting to the African Court, as I said earlier. As it is right now, I think the whole Bill looks quite ambiguous and it would cause a many problems if applied as it is. I, therefore, feel that we need to do a lot more work in terms of knowing exactly what our member State is submitting or surrendering to the African Court. Hon. Members have used the phrase ‘expanding the Bill of Rights. As I said, that would be a premise on which court actions would be based.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me this opportunity to respond to the matters raised in relation to the Motion at hand.

Madam Speaker, let me begin by commending the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance on the progressive recommendation of Zambia’s accession of the protocol to the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights and on the Establishment of the African Court on Human and People’s Rights.

Madam Speaker, the African Court was established to judge the state of its compliance on the on the rights included in the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights and other instruments on the protection of human rights ratified by a state.

There are numerous benefits of Zambia acceding to the protocol to the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights and on the establishment of the African Court on Human and Peoples’ Rights.

Madam Speaker, Zambia’s accession to the protocol will demonstrate to the rest of Africa and the world that Zambia is determined to continue in the pursuit of the protection and promotion of human rights not only in the country, but also on the continent as a whole. Further, acceding to the protocol shows Zambia’s commitment to democratic governance and affirmation of the restoration of transparent and accountable leadership, which requires the Zambian Government to be accountable at both domestic and continental levels.

Madam Speaker, I also take the opportunity to thank fellow hon. Members who debated this Motion this morning. These are the hon. Member for Kamfinsa, the hon. Member for Namwala, the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu and, last, but not the least, the hon. Member for Kafulafuta.

Madam Speaker, whilst I thank them for their debate on the Motion, there are a number of misconceptions that I need to clear, especially with regard to the role of the current Bill of Rights versus an intended expanded Bill of Rights, if I may call it that.

Madam Speaker, it is a total misnomer to suggest to the people of Zambia and, indeed, to the hon. Members in this House that the current Bill of Rights cannot suffice for the purposes of protecting the interests and the rights of the people of Zambia at a continental level.

Madam Speaker, it is an existing Bill of Rights with enshrined fundamental rights, albeit civil and political, but they are rights. Hon. Members, let us not forget that. The freedom of expression, as protected in the current Bill of Rights, is a right, nonetheless. So, accession to the protocol will allow for us, as a country, to be more accountable, in respect of our domestic courts, in protecting those existing rights.

Madam Speaker, for example, if the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu ... Oh, we are not to debate ourselves. If a citizen of this country feels that his/her right has been infringed and he/she exhausts the procedures in the local courts, what this will do is that it will allow for him/her to go and test the question as to whether or not his/her freedom of expression, for example, has been infringed upon at a domestic level. What this accession to this protocol is seeking to do is to make our country more accountable at a continental level …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haimbe: … for these very existing fundamental rights in our Bill of Rights. So, if my freedom of expression is infringed upon, and I feel that I have not gotten the appropriate remedy in the local courts, if I may call them that, the courts of competent jurisdiction in Zambia, the next stage is to go to the African Court and ask whether or not the State has infringed upon my rights. Where is that creating confusion, and in what way? There is nowhere and no way.

Madam Speaker, we like to cloud straight forward issues as we debate matters in this House. In fact, in the past, there was wanton infringement of individual rights by previous Governments, not least, the very last Government. We cried when we were on the left side of the House that we had nowhere to go with that wanton infringement of rights.

Madam Speaker, what we are doing now, as the New Dawn Government, is to say that never again should a Zambian citizen be subjected to that kind of wanton infringement of his/her rights, civil or political. We are saying that we are walking the talk. We complained about this when we were on the left and are doing something about it now since we are running the Government. We are saying that when or if it happens that citizens’ rights are infringed, they should have recourse to a higher court. What better can be done to protect the interests or rights of a Zambian citizen than to actually put skin in the game, and say, “We are willing to be looked upon by the African Continent through the court and to be tested as to our democratic credentials?

Madam Speaker, those arguments, with regard to the expansion of the Bill of Rights are neither here nor there, with due respect, because this step is an important one in relation to the existing rights that we enjoy in this country. When the time comes, the Bill of Rights will be expanded. We have committed to doing so, in any event, as the New Dawn Government. When the referendum is done, it will simply latch onto what already exists. Why wait when it can be done now? This method that we are using is systematic contrary to what has been suggested on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, the whole discussion about whether or not the Bill of Rights will be expanded is a discussion for a future date because we have already committed to doing so as the New Dawn Government. We have demonstrated the will that, where we can achieve a gain, we will do so as quickly as possible, as we are currently doing with the accession to this particular protocol.

Madam Speaker, there was a suggestion that there would be an infringement of the Constitution in the event that this Bill is passed. That could be further from the truth. As I have already demonstrated, I believe, ably so, the expansion of the Bill of Rights cannot be a basis upon which to say that accession to the protocol cannot be done. It is neither here nor there.

Madam Speaker, the Committee noted that, in fact, the step that is being taken is a very important and commendable one. It is for this reason that I submit before this honourable House and to my fellow hon. Members of Parliament that this is an important step for the country to take as part of ensuring that we enhance the democratic credentials of the Republic of Zambia not only to ourselves, domestically, but also internationally and, of course, continentally.

Madam Speaker, these are the steps that are to be taken to show and demonstrate clearly the will of the people of Zambia and the New Dawn Government to see to it that human rights, as are enshrined in our laws, are protected at the very highest level.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I submit and request hon. Members to adopt the report, and proceed to ratify the accession to the protocol.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, briefly, I would like to thank everybody who has debated verbally and silently in their hearts.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, my point of order is premised on Standing Order 65. This House operates on procedures. We have a report which we are considering, presented by your Committee. The mover of the Motion spoke to some of the issues out of the Committee’s report. All the debates that we have had, my colleagues and me, who have debated on the matter, were speaking to the information that is contained in the report, and nothing of our creation.

Is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to insinuate that we were making our own debates and basically not just agreeing with the proposal to ratify this protocol using our own information when our discourse was firmly anchored on your report? The contents of the report are the issues the four of us spoke to. I do not think any of us had anything outside the report. Is the hon. Minister in order to tender that discourse which pointed to the fact that we were speaking from nowhere?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you made your submissions and so did other hon. Members, based on the report. The hon. Minister responded to those concerns. He just offered an explanation on what the ramifications of adopting the report would be. So, I find that the hon. Minister was in order to explain. He was reacting to your concerns. He was in order.

Can we make progress.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE AVAILABILITY OF ESSENTIAL MEDICINES AND MEDICAL SUPPLIES IN PUBLIC HEALTH FACILITIES COUNTRYWIDE

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services on the availability of essential medicines and medical supplies in public health facilities countrywide laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 2^nd December, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, on Friday, 7^th October, 2022, you tasked your Committee to undertake an assessment on the availability of essential medicines and medical supplies in public health facilities. This followed numerous concerns and questions on the Floor of the House by hon. Members of Parliament on the non-availability of essential medicines in public health facilities in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the terms of reference for this task were as follows:

to ascertain the availability of medicines and medical supplies in public health facilities;
to ascertain the challenges in the distribution of medicines and medical supplies in health facilities; and
to make recommendations on the way forward.

Madam Speaker, in order to arrive at a well-informed position, your Committee adopted a simple survey method using on-spot checks, questionnaires, key informant interviews and focus group discussions with key officials. This was done in two ways. Firstly, members of your Committee visited fifteen health facilities in Lusaka and Central provinces to interview heads of institutions, inspect pharmacies and examine stock control cards as well as administer a pre-determined questionnaire.

Madam Speaker, secondly, a questionnaire was administered to all the ten provinces using parliamentary offices, and 177 health facilities were sampled. In this regard, your Committee made a number of observations and in addition has made fourteen recommendations as the way forward. Details of your Committee’s work and the results are available in your Committee’s report, which has been circulated now for close to over ten days. I, therefore, assume my colleagues and friends have all read the report and because of time, I will just give a few key findings.

Madam Speaker, firstly, at the time of the survey in October, 2022, the country was indeed facing challenges in the supply chain of essential medicines and medical supplies. Secondly, in the months under review which your Committee reviewed that it is from January to September, your Committee found stock outs were common and stood somewhere around 60 per cent. In other words, medicines were available at 40 per cent of the time over a period of nine months. For example, insulin was not available for 176 days of the 270 days under review. Similarly, paracetamol suspension, which is children preparation, was not available for over 209 days of the 270 days that your Committee studied. Health centres and health posts were the most hit with the availability rate being at 23.3 per cent over a period of nine months.

Madam Speaker, the national average on the days of the visit in October was 53 per cent, which is way below the desired stock levels of 70 to 80 per cent. Laboratory reagents and services were the most affected and in higher institutions, they were mainly reserved in some cases for emergency cases only.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA), which is the state organ responsible for procurement, storage and distribution of medicines, was currently under supplying the facilities. For example, at the time of the visit, the refill rate in most cases was generally around 30 to 40 per cent of the requested supplies by facilities. On a positive note, all the facilities had adequate stocks of Antiretroviral drugs (ARVs), malaria drugs, vaccines and Tuberculosis (TB) drugs.

Madam Speaker, what your Committee was informed as the main causes among others were the following:

that in spite of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning having provided adequate budgetary support and most of it released by October, that isK3.4 billion, spending this money has generally been a challenge and started very late. Most procurement was being undertaken mostly in August, September and October. Considering that Zambia imports close to 80 to 90 per cent of its commodities, so, when you procure them late, it means that they will therefore take a long time to arrive. The net effect of this are stock outs and shortages which are currently being experienced;
your Committee noted that the procurement of health centre kits was discontinued in September, 2021, leading to the non-delivery of these very important medicines to date;

Madam Speaker, I want to say that health centre kits have been the backbone of the medicines supply chain in our health facilities, particularly at health centre level and also at health posts. The non-availability of these has therefore created a gap, thereby increasing pressure on ZAMMSA.

insufficient capacity by ZAMMSA as evidenced by the frequent management changes leading to top management positions being on acting basis, at the time that we visited, for the past one year. This has negatively affected procurement and also its operations.

Madam Speaker, on the way forward, and more importantly, your Committee suggests among many others the following:

that ZAMMSA should be funded timely and adequately at the beginning of the year as it is with the Ministry of Education, not particularly in January;
that ZAMMSA should ensure that the process of procuring medical supplies is done early particularly in the first quarter of every year because of the long lead times and process that takes too long;
that ZAMMSA should expedite the restoration and procurement of health centres kits. These are very important because they are supplied to our lower institutions;
that the Government should fast track the promotion of local pharmaceutical manufacturing through incentives such as tax waivers as we have seen in the mining, tourism and agriculture sectors; and
that ZAMMSA should develop an accurate, quantification and forecasting system so as to be able to predict the national amount of medicines and medical supplies.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to state that based on your Committee’s report and what we found, it was found that ZAMMSA is currently under supplying, at most it has not been very consistent and has been under supplying.

Madam Speaker, on a positive note, I note that your Committee observed the steps that the Ministry of Health and the Government is undertaking in order to resolve this issue and this includes the following:

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the

Chair]

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, before we broke for tea, I was just about to conclude my contribution to this subject matter by indicating to the hon. Members that in spite of the low levels of our essential medicines in our facilities country wide that on a positive note, the Ministry of Health Zambia Medicines and Medical supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) are doing something about it which the committee noted. Among what is being done is the following:

42, 000 health sector kits are under manufacture and have been procured. They are expected to be delivered in the first quarter of next year and these will go a long way in improving the situation;
thirty three tenders are at various stages of procurement we were informed. Once these materialize and so on and so forth, we can expect that the situations will begin to improve;
is the disbursement by the ministry which is very commendable of almost the drug budget for ZAMMSA which is very commendable;
is the recruitment of management staff and the strengthening of the procurement of ZAMMSA, this also expected to improve the capacity and therefore, stabilise the medicine supply; and
is also the increased budgetary allocations. If you have noticed in this year’s budget,K4.5million that definitely will go a long way well in improving the situation.

Hon. Members this is expected that in the next six months according to the Committee’s assessment from the time the study was done in October, if all these are followed and ZAMMSA operates as expected, we can expect stability in the supply of medicines.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Committee, and because of not having enough time, I give chance to my colleague who is coming in to second the motion. I express my gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for referring this matter to the Committee. The aim is that together we can provide the corrective solution and contribute to the welfare of people because parliamentary scrutiny is about checking Government administration for improved outcomes.

Madam Speaker, I thank you and I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speaker now or later?

Mr Chibombwe: Later, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, I have received lists. We do not have the whole day to debate. However, I have noted with disappointment that there are no female hon. Members to debate. We also need to hear the voice of the women. So, the women who will indicate will be recognised.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to add my voice to the very important Motion on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, let me, firstly, start by sincerely thanking you for having constituted the Committee that went round to establish the availability or indeed shortages of drugs in various health facilities

Mrs Masebo: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, there is no provision for a point of procedure.

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, let me just appreciate the hon. Member who is debating because the report has come today for debate. However, I took note and concern that this report was already being debated by the hon. Member who wants to debate again. I felt that there was a lot of misinformation in the same debate. I am seeking your guidance really whether this is how parliament is supposed to be run.

Madam Speaker: When a report is presented before the House, it should not be debated in any other forum other than in the House. So, those hon. Members who went out to debate were completely out of order. This is now the occasion for us to debate and address this issue so that we satisfy the reasons why the report was requested. So, the Leader of the Opposition, if indeed you did debate the report in other forum you were completely out of order. Please, can you now debate in the House as required by our rules and procedure.

Mr Mundubile: Well guided, Madam Speaker, I thank your office for having constituted the very important Committee. The background to that was that Members of Parliament brought these questions on the Floor every other day. The response from Government, through the Ministry of Health, was that drugs were available. This continued for some time. Hence, you saw the need to settle the troubled case. I sincerely thank you, once again.

Madam Speaker, I will be very quick to also say that this is a reminder to our friends on the right. Seated here, we are Members of Parliament. Some of the feedback that will enable you to discharge or implement your policies efficiently is when you listen to the Members of Parliament.

It is possible that they get reports from their technocrats, but the technocrats may not be as accurate, as we are now seeing from this report, on the availability or shortage of medicines. The hon. Members of the Executive must take a leaf from this particular case. They must know that when hon. Members raise issues on this Floor, it is not always about politics. Let us choose. There are some issues, which we can be political about, not matters regarding people’s lives like medicines. No one would like to dramatise or politicise the shortage of drugs in hospitals.

Madam Speaker, you can imagine, with the delayed action on the shortage of drugs, there is one very important aspect that we are not discussing; how many lives have been lost that ordinarily would not have been lost had we acted expeditiously? Let us not trivialise some of these subjects. Today, we are debating this report, which highlights the shortages and gaps in the supply chain of medicines, but how many families are grieving on the other side of the country for having lost their loved ones all on account of lack of drugs? So, the point that I want to very strongly make on the Floor of the House this morning is that as we bring issues on the Floor of the House, the Executive must, please, take them seriously.

Madam Speaker, as we proceed–

Mr Mwene: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwene: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to insinuate that there are no drugs in hospitals...

Interruptions

Mr Mweene: ...when the report is talking about a shortage of drugs and not that there are completely no drugs?

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let me give guidance. Let us not debate through points of order, but take down notes and rebut whatever the other side is saying. That is the way people debate. Let us not raise points of order unnecessarily.

May the Leader of the Opposition continue.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, I will still drive the point home. If we want to politicise, let us reserve certain sectors, and not the health sector, it involves people’s lives. It remains a notorious fact that people may have lost lives on account of shortage of drugs during this very difficult time, when their lives should have been saved. That is the fact.

Madam Speaker, when you look at some of the reasons that are causing the shortage of drugs,–

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile: Many a time when there is a challenge on the Floor of this House, …

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, many a time–

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Leader of Opposition!

I think this will be the last point of order, so that we make progress.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Orders No. 65, which talks about being factual.

Madam Speaker, I have a report, so I want hon. Members to be factual and not to generalise and mislead this country.

“The findings of your Committee were as stated below:

The national average availability rate was at 53.1 per cent, far below the recommended WHO stock availability rate of 70 per cent at all times.

Province Stock Availability Rate by Percentage

Copperbelt 46.4

North-Western 47.7

Northern 48.3

Lusaka 49.2

Western 52.0

Eastern 54.6

Luapula 54.6

Muchinga 55.0

Central 58.3

Southern 65.1

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to say that there are no drugs when this report is clear that the drugs were available, although the availability rate was below the recommended WHO stock availability?

I seek your serious ruling because he is misleading the nation.

Madam Speaker: Okay, I have been following the debate. I think the issue is that there is a shortage of drugs...

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Madam Speaker: ... not that there are no drugs. Please, hon. Leader of Opposition–

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can we have some order!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker, do not debate while seated, please. Otherwise, you will be following the debate from outside the House. So, let us have some order, and let me guide.

Hon. Leader of Opposition, as you debate, please emphasise on the shortage rather than the scarcity of drugs.

You may proceed.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, reading from the report, it says, health centres and health posts were most hit with the availability rate at 23 per cent. This is very serious because where you are expecting to have 80 per cent, you have 23 per cent. I am, therefore, very worried that we can still display arrogance on the Floor of the House even when the details are as they are.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, this is a serious matter, let us not trivialise it. People are losing lives every day because of this. If it were not for the intervention of this House, we would have continued on the trajectory believing that drugs are available in hospitals, yet the shortage is as much as maybe, 80 per cent. So, it is very sad that in this particular case, it is not even the Ministry of Finance and National Planning that has failed to supply funds to the ministry. For the first time, let me say, for the first time, well done to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane, because he supplied funds to that ministry.

Madam, the reasons for this shortage of drugs are very academic and administrative. Why are people failing to run these ministries? Ordinarily, we have had challenges in this country because of funds, but the money is there. We have the shortage all because of staff turnover and people’s personalities. It is there in the report. It is because of changes in staff. That is one of the reasons. It is also because of cancellation of contracts without stopgap measures.

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, these–

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

If we continue at this rate, I will curtail the whole debate. Please let us have some order. Otherwise, you will spend Christmas outside.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Let us have some order and allow the Leader of Opposition to debate.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, there at the back!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, so, I am saying with the availability of funds, I want to urge the Ministry of Health to put its house in order. The issues highlighted in the report are basics. If we were running a Government that is in the ‘champions league’, we certainly cannot be in the ‘champions league’ when we have shortages of basics such as drugs.

Madam Speaker, for any responsible Government, when your own citizens, the poorest of the poor, are not saying that you are performing, and you are waiting for commendation from abroad, then there is a problem. You are owning the champions league and only performing well if a poor farmer, who stood in the queue, soaked by the rains and the sun, later falls ill and goes to the hospital but does not find any medicines, yet you are here saying we are in the ‘champions league’. The poor farmer went to get fertiliser, but he was unable to. He was soaked, got malaria, went to the hospital and there were no drugs, but we still want to insist that we are in the ‘champions league’. So, when you have a Government that is in a hurry to get accolades from abroad and not from its own citizens, it is a serious area of concern.

Madam Speaker, we, as citizens, seated in this House, must know that when you run government, you must know which one is your constituency. For instance, my constituency is Mporokoso. If the people in Kabwata where Hon. Tayengwa is are clapping for me, and the people of Mporokoso are silent, then there is a problem. Who is your constituent? Where is your constituency? The constituency for the United Party for National Development (UPND) is Zambia. Let the poorest of the poor in Zambia clap for the UPND, then it is in the ‘champions league’. If some investor somewhere comes here to take advantage of our resources and tells the Government that it is in the ‘champions league’, it should know that it is being fooled. This is free advice. What I am giving my colleagues is free advice. So, matters of health should be taken very seriously, going forward.

Madam Speaker, I hope that with this friendly and brotherly advice to my hon. Minister and sister – I wanted to take her on very hard, but I decided to just be calm so that she can look at this issue without politics and ensure that our health posts have drugs.

Madam, we can shout all we want, but the fact remains that there are staff in some health post somewhere listening, as I speak, and agreeing with me. It does not matter how much you disagree with me. There are patients running around the streets with prescriptions because they have been turned down by pharmacies. So, it is not what you say here, it is what is affecting the poor people out there that really matters.

Madam Speaker, there was a recommendation to amend the Zambia Public Procurement Act to try and improve capacity locally. I am of a different view. When this Act came into being, the idea was to introduce capacity locally. I think that within the provisions of that Act, especially where local companies are given an advance payment of up to 25 per cent, are be able to build capacity, going forward. Rushing to change the law will still take us fifty years back.

Madam, I would like to urge the hon. Minister, against that recommendation, to look at the objectives that led to the amendment of that Act, which was to build capacity within local pharmaceuticals, and ensure that we build our local capacity.

Madam Speaker, in summary, when you look at the total, some of the reasons is the external influence on ZAMMSA. It is there in the report. The question is who is that external influence? So, the external influence on ZAMMSA should stop and allow professionals to execute their duties with diligence so that we do not unnecessarily gamble with people’s lives.

Madam Speaker, with those few comments, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, by way of guidance, as we debate, let us not politicise this whole exercise. Let us not be emotional. We are here to assist the Ministry of Health to see how it can overcome this problem of the shortage of drugs. So, the debate should be in that direction. How do we assist the ministry to overcome this problem? That is why the Committee was tasked to carry out this exercise.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I thank you and the mover of the Motion, Hon. Dr Kalila.

Madam Speaker, essential drugs are very important to this nation. When the people of Bwana Mkubwa go to Mushili Mini Clinic, it is important that they find these medicines.

Madam Speaker, it is a notorious fact that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, through the Treasury, did fund the Ministry of Health in good time for it to procure medicines. However, the issues we continue to grapple with are systemic and mitigation plans to ensure that we get the drugs in good time.

Madam Speaker, yes, there are contracts which had issues previously, but as the Leader of the Opposition said, this issue of health is for all of us, regardless of political affiliation. I want to put it to this House that this is not an issue on which we need to politick, but one we need to face head-on, discuss and see how we move this country forward.

Madam, let me comment on the issue of the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA). The transition of procurement from the Ministry of Health to ZAMMSA was not done properly. We had an intervention with the Director General at ZAMMSA. He does not even know how many procurement officers are in his department, yet this is the agency which needs to procure all the medicines and spare parts.

Madam Speaker, if the Computerized Tomography (CT) Scan is not working at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), ZAMMSA needs to procure spares, but what is the lead time? Do we get the spare parts in time to save a life in Senanga General Hospital? Do we get a spare part in time to save a life in Solwezi General Hospital? These are the things that we need to look at critically as hon. Members of Parliament and as the Executive to ensure that our people are served in good time and we save lives.

The Ministry of Health is not like other ministries that can afford to wait. It has timelines. It saves lives.

Madam Speaker, this is a very good report. The buffer stock of tertiary institutions and general hospitals was at 45 per cent. We got this submission and, by then, the Acting Leader of Government Business, the hon. Minister of Defence, alluded to that fact. However, we are trying to find a solution, and not to politick. That is what we ought to do as a nation.

Madam Speaker, if you look at some hospitals, due to delayed procurement, you find that they start using up to 80 per cent of their grants to buy medicines. The result is that funds for operational costs such as fuel for ambulances and food for patients are not adequate. It is not supposed to be like that.

Madam Speaker, these are the issues that hon. Members of the House from the left and the right should sit down, put their heads together and see how they move forward to ensure that our health system is in a better place because a healthy nation is a progressive nation. These are some of the issues we need to bring to the Floor of this House to ensure that we move together and not politic.

Madam, if there is an issue in the Ministry of Health, we should advise our colleague, the hon. Minister, on how we should move forward. How do we help her so that we all move together? That is the way forward.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Speaker, we are below the threshold required by the World Health Organisation (WHO). All we need to do is to see how we move forward and ensure that we achieve that, as a country.

Madam Speaker, we need to re-look at the issue of ZAMMSA in relation to capacity. Is it able to carry out this big duty we have bestowed upon it? These are some of the Acts we need to review to ensure that we provide what is needed for this country.

Madam Speaker, let me get to the issue of the cancellation of the nine contracts, which has been highlighted in the report. There is nothing wrong with cancelling contracts if they are not good contracts, but what is the plan before you cancel? There should be a transition. This is health. You cannot just cancel everything. You have to cancel stage by stage. You first bring in a new person before cancelling the current contract. That is the smart way of doing things and what we ought to see.

Madam Speaker, this does not only apply to the Ministry of Health alone. We have a service to provide to the Zambian people. How, then, do we ensure that the service is not interrupted? It is by having a systematic plan and not to look at faces or who is involved. The question should be whether that person can do it. If he/she can, then we proceed that way.

Madam Speaker, I am here to say that this is a good report that has brought out salient features which we need to look at as a progressive nation to ensure that our people are served diligently and there is good service delivery.

Madam Speaker, we are grappling with a lot of issues even as we sit on your Committee to look at the health sector. We need to put our heads together and have a paradigm shift on how we do things and how we ought to move forward.

Madam Speaker, I support this report and wanted to contribute one or two issues to that effect.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this chance to highlight a few things and not really to politicise matters of life and death.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can we listen to the debate.

Mr Kafwaya rose.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, please.

Mr Michelo Kobika amatako aansi

Mr Katakwe: It is good to listen to matters of life and death because in the next few minutes, you may just find that we are there to attend to you.

Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I thank the New Dawn Government for increasing funding to the Ministry of Health, fromK1.4 to K3.4 then to K4.6 billion in the 2023 Budget. The report has been presented and it has been acknowledged that there is a shortage of medicine and medical supplies, and not absolute shortage of medicine, but at least there are some levels of availability of medicines.

Madam Speaker, I will highlight a few things that I have noted from the report which contribute to the unavailability of medicines, drugs and medical supplies. Indeed, funding has been talked about and we appreciate that there is some funding. Of course, if funds are not prudently utilised then we do not expect drugs to be available in hospitals. It calls for zero tolerance to corruption when it comes to the procurement of drugs, and we need to look at the issue of corruption so that we do not end up having drugs supplied in a vacuum.

Madam Speaker, I also want to speak about the attitude of human resource whom we have in various health facilities. In my district, medicines were stolen and exported to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) in a dubious way and reports were done, and this could have been as a result of the attitude of many people in pharmacies. I know quite a number of such cases and reports were done and submitted to the police for investigations. I think there is a need for those handling medicine or drugs in pharmacies to change their attitude, and this requires continuous sensitisation on the importance of being prudent and not stealing drugs. As I am speaking, some nurses were fired in my district because they were stealing drugs. So, the attitude of the human resource should be looked at.

Madam Speaker, there is also a wastage of drugs. Many drugs are wasted and not everyone who has a headache needs to be given panadol; no. When some people go to the clinic and they are not given panadol and coartem, they feel that they have not been treated. However, in this country, there is what we call over medicalisation. More drugs are being consumed, which is not good. When you go to the hospital, they do placeables where they just inject somebody with water and that person feels better, yet it was just water, and this is because that person had faith that after being injected, he/she would be okay. So, people’s attitudes need to change because every drug that is consumed has an effect. Over medicalisation is not good because when we consume more drugs, they will not be unavailable.

Madam Speaker, let me speak about referral systems. We have referral systems and not every drug can be stored at any given health facility. Certain drugs require good storage facilities, so, you do not expect those drugs to be available. When the mover of the Motion was talking about the availability of drugs in percentage terms, he should have also considered the referrals because we do not need to have all the drugs available in a health post for instance, and that is why we have the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA).When people are referred to NHIMA facilities, they should be able to get drugs there. Of course, we understand the shortfalls of NHIMA and this is a story for another day. We know that NHIMA is not available in rural areas like where I come from. We need to reconsider taking NHIMA back to the Ministry of Health as opposed to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security so that everyone including those in villages can register and subscribe to NHIMA, and probably drugs can be made available.

Madam Speaker, the storage and shelf life of drugs also affects their availability. The shelf life of drugs includes the time they are manufactured and transported, and that also affects their availability. The hon. Leader of the Opposition talked about enhancing local capacity in terms of manufacturing drugs so that we are able to enhance their shelf life or they can be kept long enough on the shelf and can be available, and that needs to be looked at.

Madam Speaker, transportation also affects the availability of drugs. For instance, in my district, it takes long for coartem to reach the remotest part because there are no roads. We have been crying for roads, and even yesterday, I talked about that. So, transportation because of the poor road network also affects the availability of drugs. That also needs to be looked at, as well as the issue of drugs and pharmacies that I talked about.

Madam Speaker, we really need to look at the issue of pharmacies. Certain pharmacies do not adhere to regulations and they may stock expired drugs. The Ministry of Health needs to up its game and make sure that it inspects the drug stores and pharmacies. Some of them stock drugs that are stolen from the Ministry of Health.

Madam Speaker, I needed to highlight those areas. Probably, if we enhance those highlighted areas, drugs will be made available for the sake of improving the health of the citizens in Zambia. Otherwise, it is a good report and it is an eye opener.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as you debate, avoid repeating the things that have already been said so that you can yield some time for other hon. Members because I have seen that so many people have indicated to debate.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, thank you most sincerely for at your request, this Committee was instituted and an investigation on the shortage of drugs has subsequently resulted in this report.

Madam Speaker, universal health coverage and access borders on Sustainable Development Goal (SDG)No. 3 and is part of the development plans that have subsequently been instituted and now, we have the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP).

Madam Speaker, your Committee has noted 59.8 per cent stock out on drugs, and 23.3 per cent availability over a period of nine months. There is nothing to be economical here. It is unacceptable that we should have 23 per cent availability of drugs, when there is full funding.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency Act was passed in 2019 and we are in 2022. When it was passed, subsequently, a Statutory Instrument (SI) was signed to operationalise the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) and transfer the procurement of drugs from the Ministry of Health to ZAMMSA. However, up to now, ZAMMSA does not have institutional and technical capacity to procure drugs; it is unacceptable. Nothing has been happening in the last twelve months to stabilise and capacity ZAMMSA.

Madam Speaker, we traverse our constituencies and we have been receiving complaints on drugs. Every day when I am in my constituency, I receive complaints from the people in Liyachi, Makoka and Shekela, and other wards. We have had those complaints and we have brought them to this House. However, we are still talking about the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency Act, which was passed in 2019 and operationalised in 2021, and we are in 2022.

Madam Speaker, ZAMMSA which should procure drugs for the whole country cannot explain how many people are in the procurement department. When ZAMMSA appeared before a committee, I asked it how many people it had in its procurement department, and the director said he would get back, but to date, he has never gotten back. However, I hear one person procures drugs for the whole country; it is unacceptable. We cannot talk of reducing maternal deaths if we are still discussing 23 per cent availability of drugs. This is a scandal. I stand here and debate as a very sad Member of Parliament. We are funding ZAMMSA, but it is not procuring the drugs so, what is the point? We need to give capacity to ZAMMSA.

Madam Speaker, on page 8, your Committee noted that the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) appears to be having challenges in decision making, and there is external influence. What external influence is this? The Committee should have been clearer. This thing of drugs, whether you belong to the Patriotic Front (PF), the United Party for National Development (UPND), the Democratic Party (DP), the United National Independence Party (UNIP) or the Party of National Unity & Progress (PNUP)like me, you need drugs. So, we should stop politicking on drugs. We need to put ZAMMSA in order. If we cannot give institutional and technical capacity to ZAMMSA, we will not solve the problem. We are not interested in stories. We are not interested in being told that there are cartels. Which cartels? Nine contracts were cancelled without a plan. When you ask why they were cancelled, you hear “No, maybe they were PF” Are we interested in which party the contractors believed in? We are interested in having drugs in hospitals.

Madam Speaker, I support strongly, adamantly, the Committee’s report that we need to attach seriousness to giving ZAMMSA the institutional and technical capacity it should have. I will tell you that your Committee report does also say that some hospitals do not have basic equipment, but ZAMMSA is sitting there with money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and it is not procuring goods. There are hospitals like Nalolo District Hospital where Phase I of the hospital is complete but there is no equipment. The Ministry of Health is spending K6,000 to transfer a referral patient to Lewanika general Hospital or Senanga District Hospital. We need to be serious. Some people are comforted by the health sector saying it is not that there are no drugs, there is shortage of drugs. However, we should not have a shortage at all. If we have people to supply drugs, why are they not supplying? Why is ZAMMSA failing to comply with the Public Procurement Act to give suppliers 25 per cent advance payment? This is there in the report. What does ZAMMSA want? Why is it playing with people’s lives?

Madam Speaker, we have a refill rate of 30 per cent. Why? We are saying that the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) should expedite registering more people. Meanwhile, NHIMA has been taken to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. It must come back to the Ministry of Health. These are the topical issues. These are the real issues. We are tired of explaining to the people. Sometimes, I feel that we should take the people who give excuses to the constituencies to hear what people are saying.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency Act has been there for too long. There is no need to come and say it needs to be looked at. Why should the whole procurement of drugs in this country be subjected to a procurement department of two or one person? The transition itself from the Ministry of Health being in charge of procuring drugs to ZAMMSA was bad as there was no plan. A contractor is registered to supply the Ministry of Health and a contract is written to supply the Ministry of Health. So, if this is transferred to ZAMMSA, which contract will the contractor use to use to supply ZAMMSA? The Ministry of Health has to start consulting the Attorney-General again. It is a mess, for lack of a better term.

Madam Speaker, I would like to say that if we do not get to the point where we choose policies over politics, or we continue the blame game, this problem will not end. At the ballot, there will be no blame game. People will decide based on availability of drugs. Even if you have a Constituency Development Fund (CDF) grant and you are sick, will you eat the grant? We need to be serious.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Wamunyima: We know that there is political will from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and from the President to have this institution funded. This is just failure of management and transitioning to ZAMMSA, and it is unacceptable. As your Committee reported, we demand that this situation be resolved. We are elected here to speak for the people. We are not here to speak for suppliers, we do not even know them. We want people to have access to drugs. This is their money. The money going to be allocated to drugs is not a gift. It is their money, taxpayers’ money. Anyone who is not doing his job at ZAMMSA or at the Ministry of Health or cannot do his job should leave.

Madam Speaker, I submit that this is a serious issue. We cannot have insulin unavailable for 176 days. What will happen to those who are diabetic? No! This is serious. We need to change the narrative. Time for politics is over. The next time we meet in politics is in 2016. For now, let us deliver.

Hon. Opposition Members: 2026!

Mr Wamunyima: For now, let us deliver. We need drugs.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to add the voice of Luena to this very important debate on the report.

Madam Speaker, the matter on the Floor of the House is very serious. It is no matter for politicking. It is no matter to score cheap political points because it is talking to an issue that is our collective lived experience. Each one of us is aware of the circumstances that led to the commissioning of this report. So, it is not in dispute that there were challenges, and it is the challenges that led to the commissioning of the report. Here we are now, and the report has been presented.

Madam Speaker, this report has made a number of observations, but before one even goes into these observations, one needs to state that the international medicines and medical supply chain is a complex one. What this report has demonstrated is that, in fact, we were already held ransom and the country was vulnerable.

Madam Speaker, can somebody here tell me when last we had sufficient medical supplies in our hospitals? Was it in 2015? Was it in 2017? Was it in 2021?

Hon. Opposition Members: In New Dawn!

Mr Anakoka: Absolutely not. We have lived with this experience for many, many years. If cancelling nine problematic contracts let to the country being in this situation, it means we are already vulnerable as a nation. If there is one recommendation one needs to make, it is that this report should lead to a more detailed investigation, probably involving the security wings.

Madam Speaker, what you see here are observations that are all focused on the failures at ZAMMSA. One takes note of the fact that in doing this good work, the Committee probably did not have an opportunity to engage the Ministry of Health because of time limitations. So, many other stakeholders were engaged but I was looking for the input from the Ministry of Health. I noted one thing, that in fact, even if the Committee had spoken to the Ministry of Health, maybe it would not have changed the observations and recommendations. Why? It is because the power to procure medicines is now sitting with ZAMMSA and then we have NHIMA as a player. My deep analysis of this situation is that this is not a matter that you can resolve by scratching the surface. There are deeper-rooted issues here.

Madam Speaker, if ZAMMSA is sitting with K2.7 billion, why do we not have medicines in hospitals? It is because the medicines and medical supplies chain is holding us to ransom. We need to wake up to that reality. So, what do we need to do? We need to break that chain. Hon. Minister of Health, it is time to revisit the structure and the role that is being played by ZAMMSA and NHIMA in this. Maybe we need to ask ourselves a question: Which is the model that will fit our desired result of delivering medicines to all facilities in hospitals on time, at the right price and of the right quality?

Madam Speaker, we should be alive to the fact that we have had medicines supplied which were of unacceptable quality. We are still alive to that reality. We had expired drugs supplied. We have heard about expired drugs and condoms before and we do not want a repeat of that. It is only yesterday when we heard about a very quick procurement of a presidential jet that occurred over twenty-four hours. That means we do not want such loopholes to be occasioned also in the Ministry of Health.

What are we saying is the way forward, Madam Speaker? Indeed, ZAMMSA, with the Ministry of Health and NHIMA and all other institutions that have to play a role here need to be brought back to the drawing board to talk about what timeframes are acceptable for the procurement of essential medical drugs.

Madam Speaker, this story has gone on for far too long. It is time radical decisions are taken. Unfortunately, from my reading of the report, I note that it is not proposing anything radical. When these nine contracts were in place, we still had a shortage of medicines and medical supplies. So, this means the nine contracts that were cancelled were not the panacea of all our problems. We need to look at the entire chain and give it a timeline within which these essential medicines and medical supplies should be procured and delivered to the people.

Madam Speaker, the people of Luena are even thinking that maybe, a decentralised approach needs to be considered, where when medicines are imported, the consignment should arrive at the airport already branded as North-Western Province, and that is where it gets to be opened. This idea of repackaging these medicines in Lusaka is the reason all private pharmacies have essential medical drugs, but the hospital across the road does not have anything. Where are these private dealers getting the medicines from when the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) is failing to get them? There is a structural issue that needs to be sorted out here.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to observe that –

Mr Amutike: Do not conclude.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I would just like to observe that the capacity issues that were identified at ZAMMSA, probably bring to the fore the situation that needs to be addressed, maybe not in terms of the people who are at ZAMMSA now, but in terms of what role ZAMMSA should actually be playing in the procurement of medicines. In this country, we have gone back and forth in this health management structure. We all know we used to have the Central Board of Health (CBoH) and it was done away with. The functions were taken back to the ministries. Again, we started creating these other institutions, again to handle health issues and we are, once again, having serious problems.

Madam Speaker, maybe, getting back to the drawing board and asking ourselves the question: which of these various institutions that are playing a role in this health sector is better placed to handle the issue of money only? Which one is better placed to handle the issue of procuring drugs? Maybe, we have another one which is responsible specifically for distributing the drugs so that the issue can be resolved once and for all.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, it is not an issue that the people of Luena would want to politic about and we are mindful that, indeed, because of the sensitive nature and the real lived experience of all our people, it is an issue on which some of our colleagues might want to score some political points. However, we acknowledge the problem and we think the solutions needs to be found and it needs to found by taking into account some the proposals.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Chama North, to debate this very important report. Firstly, I salute your Committee for having done a very good job. I also wish your Committees could interrogate other critical economic areas where we have crises. I think what the Committee has done demonstrates that Parliament indeed, Parliament has an oversight role on how the Government is operating. In the report the committee is saying that they visited fifteen facilities in Lusaka and I think Central Province. They also, did questionnaires. I am aware that of course they engaged the Permanent Secretary (PS) and my professional assistant was always in touch me over the same issue.

Madam Speaker, I think the issue of shortages of drugs is very serious. I can easily describe it as a national disaster and I think people must be held accountable. It cannot be business as usual. In civilised societies, people were going to be held accountable and heads were going to roll. There is no way we can just discuss a report here and then it becomes business as usual. So, I want to challenge the Government to make sure that the people who are responsible for the shortage of drugs in our health facilities are held accountable. People should have resigned on moral grounds. If they do not resign on moral grounds, I think the authorities must be able to take action. The people of Zambia elected a Government to provide services for them. The era of the blame game is long gone. That is why the people of Zambia voted on 12^thAugust, 2021.If we continue to blame the past Government, I think that will not do us well.

Madam Speaker, I did a survey at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and I met some medical doctors. What is obtaining at UTH is very sad. This came from the medical doctors at UTH indicating a lack of laboratory reagents, lack of medication in our pharmacies including antibiotics, blood pressure (BP) medication and so on and so forth. Our Computerised Tomography (CT) scan has been down for more than one year. People are going to Levy Mwanawasa University Teaching Hospital (LMUTH) and Maina Soko Military Hospital. The situation on the ground is very sad and our innocent people are dying. This information is from the medical doctors at UTH.

Madam Speaker, if we can have such a crisis at UTH, what about the health facilities in Chama? This report is saying that rural health centres are the most hit. My appeal is that we are in the rainy season and most rural areas in this country are inaccessible. So, how are these drugs going to reach those areas where the roads are inaccessible? So, the situation is very sad and I think it is the responsibility of this House to make sure that those people responsible for procuring medicines are held to account for their failures.

Madam Speaker, the other issue is on the local suppliers. I remember in the days we were growing up in Ndola, we had local companies which were manufacturing drugs in Ndola. Today, however, we are importing drugs from India and South Africa. I think this is wrong. I think as a country, it is important that we put in place incentives to promote the growth of the pharmaceutical industry in this country than spending foreign exchange all the time to import drugs. Countries like China, Malaysia and others are also promoting herbal medicines. Why do we always rely on western medicines? As a country, I think it is high time we started moving towards promoting herbal medicines. That way, we are also going to save our foreign exchange.

Madam Speaker, I think the cancellation of contracts is not a matter we can just joke about it here. I think whoever was responsible for cancelling these contracts must be held responsible. We cannot allow this kind of situation. In civilised societies, people were going to be held responsible. Unfortunately, in Africa, it is business as usual. As a country, it is important that we ensure that all those people who have made this situation worse are held accountable.

Madam, I also want to call for the amendment of the Procurement Act. There are certain medicines which are of an urgent nature. If we are going to be waiting for a bureaucratic system for us to procure medicines, then this problem shall be with us for a long time. So, I think it is important that as a nation, we amend the Procurement Act.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I still insist that the people responsible must be held accountable. There is no way that the people of Chama, Sitwe, Chibale, Chisunga cannot have medicines. People have died. Surely, should it be business as usual? The answer is definitely no.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I support this particular report. Your Committee has done a good job of bringing this information to the public because as hon. Members of Parliament, we have been raising these issues, but we have trivialised this particular matter.

Madam Speaker, we, on the left side of the House are here to make sure we help the Government succeed. So, let us work together as social partners. We must work together as the Opposition and the Ruling Party. However, if the hon. Members on your right are going to consider the hon. Members on the left as their enemies, then we will be losing it as a country.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I support the report.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, we are all very concerned about the situation we are in, as a country. People have spoken this morning. I am sure everybody has heard the situation we are in. We should not really politicise this situation we are in, as a country.

Madam Speaker, right now, if you go to Bweengwa Constituency, there is a challenge of the non-availability of drugs. If you go to Chienge and everywhere else in the country, the challenge is the same.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr Michelo: These challenges have not been born today. We are coming from a situation where, at some point, the Government bought expired drugs, through Honey Bee Pharmacy Limited. I think that is where this situation started from.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Michelo: We cannot stand up here with our heads high trying to politicise the issue and accuse the current Government of failing in this ministry. No. The situation is very serious. It is coming from somewhere and each and every individual in this country, all 19 million Zambians, are aware.

We know that the hon. Minister is not in the procurement team. However, we know that she is in charge of that ministry. When she gets back to her ministry, she should try to sit down, again, with the people in charge of procuring drugs in this country. If there are some people who are trying to sabotage this Government, we request her to fire them as soon as yesterday.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Michelo: We cannot continue with this situation we are in right now.

Madam Speaker, coming to the issue of local suppliers, this report indicated that they have no capacity. What I understand is that local suppliers, once given enough incentives and a conducive environment in which to operate, have the capacity to supply drugs. If you look at the annex, which was attached to the report, it indicates that a lot of people applied to supply drugs; local companies and citizens. Imagine that out of the K2billion worth of contracts, citizens were only given K13 million. This is not good. What are we doing as a country? We must empower our citizens.

Madam Speaker, let me not waste too much of my time. The situation we are in is very serious. However, we just want to request that when she gets back, she should recommend some of the people under her ministry to be fired.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Michelo: Even those who were involved in giving a tender to Honey Bee Pharmacy Limited must go.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Nkana to add a voice. Let me hasten to say that I will not be shy to bemoan the politicisation of issues in this House. I pray for a time when it will not be about political party A versus party B.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Ours is a noble duty to serve the people who brought us to this august House. This matter we are discussing is very important. It is a point where we should come together and find a solution.

Madam Speaker, why are we here? You commissioned your Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services because of constant points of order, matters of urgent public importance as well as questions that were being asked regarding the shortages and non- availability of drugs in clinics and all health facilities.

Madam Speaker, where are we coming from? The issue of shortages has not started today. I, as an hon. Member of Parliament, made it a campaign message. So, this issue has been with us for some time.

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: The question is: Are we improving? Unfortunately, we seem to be doing far worse now.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Why are we doing far worse when things are seemingly better than yesteryears in terms of availability of resources? Let us refresh our minds. From 2021, there was an allocation towards the procurement of essential drugs of K717million. We jumped in 2022 by K400 million to K1.1 million. We have, again, jumped to K1.5 million in the 2023 Budget which we have just appropriated. So, the availability or lack of resources is not the issue.

Madam Speaker, certainly, we are at a point where we are not only depending on monies that come from the budget towards the procurement of drugs; the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) has come in full throttle to supplement the procurement of drugs. The report of the Committee has actually indicated that had it not been for NHIMA, the situation would have been far worse in health facilities. So, we have everything at our disposal. The question is: Why are we here? What are we doing to remedy the situation?

Madam Speaker, the fact of the matter is that I do not speak from reports. I have traversed health facilities in my constituency. I am even scared to go to the health facilities in Mindolo and Buchi because there are no drugs. The report from the technocrats actually even indicates some good percentages. The fact, where I am coming from, is that there are no drugs in our health facilities. If you are lucky, you will be given a paper.

Madam Speaker, in fact, even packages are not there. People are being given medicines, if they are lucky to be given, in papers; the papers like those we see women selling chikanda in. Those are the papers clinics are using to give drugs today. So, the situation is bad.

Madam Speaker, this is what I think is the problem: the attitude in the health sector. I brought a problem to the hon. Minister, not long ago. I think, it was two days ago. In my constituency, the health personnel in Kitwe have refused my people to have health facilities built from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Two health facilities have been rejected in places that need them. Confiding in the hon. Minister, I could clearly see that attitude is the problem. The question is: Who is going to deal with that attitude problem? The person at the helm must deal with this mess because the buck stops at nobody else, but her. If I see that people are beginning to make me look incompetent, to an extent where somebody changes my speech, I can have heads roll.

Laughter

Mr Mpundu: That is the problem we have here.

Madam Speaker, the other problem we have is, obviously, as everybody stated, the re-organisation that happened at transition from procurement at the ministry to the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA). Like everybody stated, ZAMMSA is extremely incompetent. I shudder to think why we, as Zambian people, are so accustomed to keeping incompetent people.

Madam Speaker, the other day, I was complaining about the CDF. I am so sad that people quoted me to have said that it was scam. I want to repeat, I did not say that the CDF was a scam. I said that because of incompetency and inertia, these good programmes are beginning to look like bad programmes. This is what I am stating here.

So, when you have power, you do not allow anybody to make you look like you are incompetent. There is nothing else we are discussing here other than incompetence.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: We have everything at our disposal. We have too much money. From K700 million, we add over 50 per cent of monies allocated towards the procurement of drugs and we should still be talking about people receiving Panadol muchipepala cha kapenta?

Mr Mutelo: Meaning!

Mr B. Mpundu: It is unacceptable, Madam Speaker. Our people deserve better.

Madam Speaker, our people deserve better and it starts from here. I want to end by informing my colleagues, the hon. Members both from the right and the left, that some of us are interested in this issue and are not interested in their bickering. They should stop the fights. At some point, I am going to leave this House to wait for them to finish fighting because we are not interested. These are important matters and they border on life. Health is wealth and life. We will not develop this country if we do not address the problem that is there.

Madam Speaker, we are going on break today, and I am even scared to go to my constituency because I do not know what to tell the people of Miseshi. They wanted a health facility and somebody seated in an office in Kitwe refused to have them built a facility. I do not know what I am going to tell the people of Nkana West because we wanted to build them a health facility, but somebody has refused that. I do not know what I am going to tell the people in Kandabwe who wanted a health facility and they even have money; somebody has refused to have them built that facility. What a country! What a people! What a shame! This cannot be allowed.

Madam Speaker, I am speaking to all us. Let us recollect. Let us go back to our conscience. Our people are looking for more from us. I am very sad. This situation must be remedied because we have everything at our disposal. The National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) has come in to supplement our ability to provide health services to our people. Let us reorganise NHIMA, if there is need to reorganise it. Let us rebuild it.

Madam Speaker, this ZAMMSA issue is nerve wrecking. Let us reorganise ZAMMSA. Do we need twenty years to reorganise it and its ability to provide services to the people?

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me time to debate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Mweetwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for the occasion to add my voice on the Motion on the Floor of this House.

Madam Speaker, I sat here very saddened to see how people want to frown upon reality, and how today, an improving situation can be said to be worse off. What manner of deception is this?

Madam Speaker, I have been in this House since 2011. Firstly, according to the 2012 Auditor-General Report, the national stock levels of medicines in this country were at 54 per cent. Today, we are talking about 53.1 per cent, and this situation is improving and is being worked on. Secondly, as of August 2021, when we took over the administration of the Government, the national stock level of medicines was at 30 per cent. These are facts. Numbers do not lie. So, which situation are we saying is becoming worse? Read first before you come and talk in the people’s House so that you do not mislead the nation. If you want to do politics, we are equal to the task.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: How can the Leader of the Opposition have the audacity to ask how many people died because of national stock levels of medicines being at 53.1 per cent? Let me contextualise the 53.1 per cent so that the people who are speaking and want to paint white black should also maybe benefit something. When the national stock levels of medicines are at 53.1 per cent, it means that people are not going to die. How can you die when you go to a hospital which has 53.1 per cent of medicines?

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, we all know the situation on the ground. We need more medicines. However, to characterize that people are dying because the national stock levels of medicines are at 53.1 per cent –

How many people died in 2021 when you were in the Government, when the stock levels of medicines were at 30 per cent?

Madam Speaker: Order!

Speak through the Speaker and address the Chair.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, how many people died due to national stock levels of medicines being at 30 per cent when the Patriotic Front (PF) Government was in power? Members of the PF want to somersault here and talk about people dying when there has been 23.1 per cent improvement from the time we took over Government? Let us be realistic.

Madam Speaker, the challenges affecting the procurement process are well appreciated, but then, we must not frown upon history. Let us look at where we are coming from. How many people died because of having 53.1 per cent of national stock levels of medicines?

How many people died when you, the PF, procured counterfeit and expired drugs? Did you tell us how many people you killed through such a procurement? How many people died when you misapplied and diverted the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) funds? If you live in a glass house, do not throw stones. That is the principle here.

Madam Speaker, people are talking about the cancellation of contracts. The cancellation is in line with the law. We all know that the Ministry of Health was one of the favourable ministries for corrupt people to make money under the PF. So, when contracts that were dubious under the PF Government were cancelled, such contracts –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya rose.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, why are you standing when the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu is already standing?

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: I have a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: No! That is not the way we proceed.

The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu wants to raise a point of order. Hon. Member for Lunte, please, resume your seat.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Let us have order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point or order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, on manner of debate.

Madam Speaker, I know that the hon. Minister of Southern Province has really missed being on the microphone of this Chamber in terms of debating, but is he in order to ignore your report which is very clear? In the report, there is no mention of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government or Party. The report which you–

We are very grateful to you, Madam Speaker, because you used your wisdom to put these matters to rest. We have said let us not politicise using this report. Is the hon. Minister in order to start politicking and to ignore the clear contents of your own report?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, you can give examples as you debate, but stick to the report. Of course, you can give examples to put your debate in perspective, but please, stick to the report. You may proceed.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I am speaking to the contents of the report which is talking about cancellation of nine contracts and some members who debated said such cancellation is responsible for the shortage of medicines. How can a contract which has not met the requirements of the law be allowed to be fulfilled when the law has stipulated through the Public Procurement Act, the benchmarks of such a contract? Under the previous administration, such contracts would go through. This is a Government of laws. We should not frown upon the fact that when a contract does not meet the requirements of Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA), it should not go through. It is such kind of outlets why public resources were being abused. This has come to an end.

Madam Speaker, we are talking about local suppliers to say they have no capacity. Out of the thirty-four contracts or suppliers, only three are local and they have supplied 100 per cent. So what are we talking about saying that the local suppliers have no capacity. When we come to this House, we should know that we have a national responsibly to give the nation the correct information. The correct information is the following: When President Hakainde Hichilema took over Government, national stock levels of medicines were at 30 per cent, they are now at 53.1 per cent. Part of the challenge is because the Government is breaking down the cartels from which decision makers were feeding their pockets through corrupt decisions. Those are the challenges. They are being worked on. Sooner rather than later, this situation shall improve the Government’s in situ.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon Government Members: Hear, Hear!

Madam Speaker: At this stage, we need to listen to a female voice.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, I have been following the debate and indeed you called upon us, female’s, to have a say on this very important matter. Usually, we should not even be called upon. It is our duty to do that only that, I thought that your Committee report was very thorough in its findings, investigations and recommendations that it has made. The good thing is that the challenges and the difficulties have been exposed. The English say that ‘a problem shared is a problem halved’. Indeed, we are listening to what is being said about the situation of medicines in our hospitals. Obviously, we are all agreed that there is a lot of room for improvement. However, the challenges that have led us to this situation have been exposed. Therefore, from what has come through the report and what being debated here, is really something to do with our system failure which needs to be resolved so that the supply of medicines can be uninterrupted in our health institutions.

Madam Speaker, I will also acknowledge that in Kafue, one time, I do not know whether that situation was interesting or not where I visited the secondary school to do some mentorship to girls and they were crying about the shortage of family planning pills. I wondered saying my God, school children are even crying for family planning pills when they should be concentrating on their books. However, what I also heard from other health centres concerns where our medical personnel are actually selling the drugs, yet in the facilities there is nothing. So, I agree with the people of Luena when they say that beyond this report there is much more that we need to do which is causing this situation.

What I also heard from other health centres are concerns about where our medical personnel are actually selling these drugs, yet the facilities have no drugs. So, I agree with the hon. Member for Luena when he says that beyond this report, there is much more we need to do which is causing this situation.

Madam Speaker, I do not know whether to call this shortage artificial, but it may also be created because people are transferring these medicines from the hospitals into their private facilities. If this is not corrected, it means that the Government will continue pouring into the bottomless pit and the problem will remain as we are discussing it today the way it was discussed even in the past.

Madam Speaker, amidst this picture that we are talking about today, I am comforted by some silver lining that I see in the report, where it is evident that the Government has made funds for the procurement of drugs available. It is only that the people who are charged with the responsibility are not doing what they are supposed to. I agree with those who are saying it is time that we got this whip and axed out the people who are causing these system failures.

Madam Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member for Nkana. This is what I also had in mind with regard to the Constituency Development Fund(CDF). From the centre, money is going into the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, but somewhere, somehow, things are not moving by the same people who are supposed to help us do the job. Yes, at the end of the day, the people in higher offices will take responsibility, but it would also be unfair to blame them when they are doing their utmost best to ensure that resources are available. However, for lack of a better term, just because some cadre somewhere wants to frustrate the effort of the Government, then this should be thrown back at the Government. I do not think that is fair.

Madam Speaker, I took a scan at the recommendations. They are good, and I particularly like the one that talks about creating incentives for local pharmaceuticals, as we have done in agriculture and tourism, so that they are able to provide the medicines. Considering that we have such manufacturing industries as Yash Pharmaceuticals Ltd in Kafue, indeed, I welcome this recommendation. After all, we are saying we should promote the manufacturing sector because it will not only help us to get the products we are looking for, but will also create jobs for our own people. Having heard here that out of the number of suppliers who procured or supplied medicines, only three were local and the rest were foreign, why should we not be building our own local capacity? If we did that, all these problems we are talking about would be a thing of the past.

Madam Speaker, I personally believe in the hon. Minister. She is an iron lady. We call her field marshal, and we do not call her that for nothing. She is equal to the task. I think people should not discourage her with that they are trying to say here. Let us just do as the report has advised; that we go to sweep those corners and ensure that we serve the people of Zambia because health is wealth. We cannot afford to lose not even one life on account of lack of medicines in our hospitals.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I thank you for the opportunity. Indeed, as mothers, we needed to speak on this because we are the care givers when our people face health challenges. I also want to commend my New Dawn Government for being transparent in its dealings because in other Governments, such a report would not even have seen the light of day. It would not even have come on the Floor of this House for debate. However, it is good that hon. Members on both sides of the House are saying where exactly is the problem? Here it is, let us deal with it. That is what we must be looking at.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The seconder is now ready.

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Speaker, let me begin by thanking the mover of this Motion.

Madam, from the outset, let me say that this was not a witch-hunt. We are not trying to fix anyone. The terms of reference that you gave to the Committee were clear. You gave us three terms of reference which were: to interrogate the availability of medicines in health facilities, the challenges and the way forward.

Madam Speaker, I will not politic, but speak to this.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Bahati, I am sorry to interrupt you. I had indicated that the hon. Member for Lunte had a point of order to raise. I also forgot. What is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Michelo: Kwiina chaamba.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am sure you have heard some disgruntled hon. Member saying kwiina chaamba, meaning that I am going to say nothing, when you have given me the Floor to speak.

Laughter

Mr Kasandwe: Write a complaint.

Mr Kafwaya: Let me declare that I will write a complaint against the hon. Member who thinks I am rising up to say nothing.

Madam Speaker, my point of order is based on Standing Order 65. I am very troubled. I thought I should raise this point order while this Motion is on the Floor on account of being contemporaneous.

Madam, this point of order is against the hon. Minister responsible for the Southern Province. The hon. Minister presides over an important province, the province of my childhood. I can tell you, Madam Speaker, that there are numerous health posts in the Southern Province.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Your report, which I know the hon. Minister might not have to read, indicates:

“Health centres and health posts were the most hit with the availability rates being at 23.3 per cent over the period of nine months”.

Mr Mweetwa rose.

Ms Mulenga: Kokala!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister compares 53 per cent with 30 per cent during the Patriotic Front (PF) when, in the health posts in the Southern Province and the Northern Province, the average rate was 23.3 per cent. He boasts that he is equal to the task when it comes to politicking. Is he in order to come here to quote wrong figures and boast of politicking when he is supposed to provide policy for the people in the Southern Province and the country at large? Is he in order to behave in this manner?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the report is very clear.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

The report is very clear. As we debate, let us follow the numbers that are in the report. However, nothing stops an hon. Member from giving examples of what happened previously, but the figures that are in the report are the ones that are supposed to be followed. If the hon. Minister was saying that it was 53 per cent when the report is saying 23 per cent in the Southern Province, then he was not correct.

Hon. Opposition Members: He was out of order.

Madam Speaker: He was out of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Ms Nakaponda: That is my Speaker for me!

Mr Chibombwe: Thank you once more, Madam Speaker.

Madam, before I was interrupted, I was saying that I will just focus on the three topical issues.

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

It seems the seconder is going to be interrupted again.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, my point of order is predicated upon Standing Order 66 on content of speech on the Floor of this House. Is my colleague, Hon. Kafwaya, whom I have so much respect for, in order –

Mr Mung’andu: A point of order on a point of order?

Mr Mweetwa: I am raising a point of order on the content –

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mweetwa: You should understand the law.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Give the hon. Minister an opportunity to state the point of order. I will be the one to make the ruling.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, is Hon. Kafwaya in order to mislead himself and attempt to mislead the House and the nation at large by saying I was quoting wrong figures when I consistently referred to the figures in the report called the national stock levels, the average being at 53.1 per cent? We are talking about the national average here. We are not talking about Choma Central Constituency or even health posts that just exist in his mind, and not in Choma. So, is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House that I was quoting wrong figures when the figures I was quoting are correct, being 53. 1 per cent at national level, and I did not quote any other imaginary figures in his figmentation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the practice of the House is that there should be no point of order upon another one, but the distinction here is the content which the hon. Minister referred to that there was a misunderstanding between himself and the hon. Member for Lunte regarding what he was stating. Whereas the hon. Member for Lunte stated that the hon. Minister said 53 per cent, the hon. Minister was referring to the national average and the 23 per cent refers to the average in the Southern Province. So, please, as we read the report, let us be specific to what the figures are referring to.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, no more points of order now. Let us make progress. We want to conclude this matter.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, you gave us clear instructions. We went out, we asked simple questions and we were given simple answers, and those simple answers are the ones contained in your report.

Madam Speaker, let me on behalf of your Committee report to you that the national average of medicines in health facilities stands at 53.1 per cent, and I will try to break down this 53.1 per cent.

Madam Speaker, the drugs that are available in the facilities are those that are donor funded. A big chunk of this 53 per cent came from the donors. Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) and Tuberculosis (TB) drugs, some vaccines and reagents are available because these are given to the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) by our co-operating partners. The problem is on essential drugs from ZAMMSA, and drugs such as antibiotics, painkillers, insulin and other essential drugs are not available in health facilities.

Madam Speaker, I must report to you that health facilities are kept operational through the monthly grants they receive from the Government. Under normal circumstances, health facilities are only supposed to use about 4to 30 per cent of the grants to supplement medicines. However, what is obtaining on the ground is that health facilities are using close to 80 per cent of the grants on supplementing medicines and medical supplies.

Madam Speaker, like one hon. Member debated, this is affecting other needs like food for patients at facilities. All the facilities that the Committee visited attributed the shortage of medicines and medical supplies we are experiencing in the county to the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA). The Committee is of the view that the supply chain of medicines, surgical supplies and laboratory reagents is below normal. The normal availability rate recommended by the World Health Organisation (WHO) is 70 to 80 per cent at all times, and supplies should last for three months. The 53.1 per cent that we are talking about today by the time of the survey was just enough to last for a month in the country. So, the shortage is not artificial but real. Workers interviewed by the Committee submitted that the situation, by the time of the survey, is characterised by insufficient, erratic and inconsistent supply by ZAMMSA.

Madam Speaker, time is flying so fast. I was disturbed, so I hope I will be given more time.

Laughter

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, I will give an example of Kanyama Level I Hospital. By the time of the survey, it had received just 6 per cent of its total requirement from ZAMMSA. Chawama Level I hospital had not received its October allocation by the time we visited; we went there on 28^th October. By that time, ZAMMSA had not delivered drugs for October to Chawama Level I hospital.

Madam Speaker, all the facilities in the country have few laboratory reagents. It is not just the laboratory reagents but there is also broken down medical equipment. A very busy hospital in Chisamba Constituency, Liteta, which handles most of the road traffic accidents along Great North Road, has no x-ray machine. If someone is a victim of a road traffic accident (RTA), he is sent to either Kabwe or Lusaka.

Madam Speaker, the population of Lusaka, which today stands at approximately 4 million, is relying on only one computerised tomography (CT) scanning machine. I do not know if this is by default or by design that if one CT scanning machine at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) is working, then the other one at Maina Soko Military Hospital and Levy Mwanawasa University Teaching Hospital (LMUTH) will not be working. All the time you go to UTH, you will find that if the CT scanning machine is working there, then the machines in the other two facilities will not be working. It is rare that you find that all the machines at all the facilities are working. Machines like the one for recording the electrocardiogram (ECG),the echocardiogram (ECHO) and the x-ray do not work. Patients are subjected to scans at UTH, ECG at LMUTH and ECHO at another facility. This is so expensive for the citizens of this country.

Madam Speaker, so much has been said. Let me just quickly go to the recommendations that the Committee put in the report. Hon. Minister of Health, through the Speaker, we want you to put politics aside. This is a very important matter. You have been in this game for a long time. You have been an hon. Minister of Health before and you know –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, I was disturbed.

Madam Speaker: Your time is up.

At this time, we will listen to the hon. Member for Chipili.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to debate on this very important Motion before this august House. Before I go any further, let me declare interest that I am a member of the Committee.

Dr Chilufya (Mansa Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to debate this very important report. It is a sombre moment that should summon all of us to the table to reflect on –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, let us listen to the debate.

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, it is a sombre moment summoning all of us across the political aisle to reflect on this report and understand the ‘but why’ and also ‘what’ question to this report.

Madam Speaker, let me begin by thanking the mover of the Motion, a respectable practitioner of medicine and health assistant fellow who is very seasoned. I appreciate the way the report has been couched.

Madam Speaker, the report screams one message loud; there are no drugs in public health facilities.

Ms Mulenga: Yes.

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, I would like to lay to rest the argument about the percentage, no drugs and the shortage. I will speak authoritatively as a health practitioner.

Madam Speaker, when you look at the tracer list of medicines, you are looking at drugs that will treat different conditions. That tracer list is not even a complete list of essential medicines, it is selected. When we talk of a per centum availability, you should just go to page 5 of the report which tells you that when we say 59.8 per cent stock out, it means that for nine months in that period, 59.8 per cent stock out, meaning no medicines in those facilities. What are the implications? You are talking about a person who is coming with high blood pressure proceeding to get a stroke; cerebrovascular accident and succumbing to death. You are talking about a woman in labour who comes in and needs magnesium sulphate because of high blood pressure and she will not make it. Today, refer to the maternal and peri-natal death surveillance review. Week forty-eight, we lost twenty-one pregnant women. Week thirty-nine, we lost sixteen, week thirty-five, we lost fifteen. The records are there. Numbers do not lie. It simply means eighteen to twenty women dying every week out of preventable maternal related conditions. This is a shame. Further, to hear the trivia and the politics on the Floor of this House to do with this report is extremely upsetting.

Madam Speaker, the report says that the 20 to 23 per cent availability of medicines at health centre facility level. Let me put it into context. We have close to 4000 health facilities in this country. More than 3500 of these health facilities are primary health care facilities. This is where there is 20 per cent availability. The hon. Minister of Southern Province is a lawyer, he should read. January 2021 to August 2021, availability of medicines in the country 65 to 75 per cent, he should check the records. A learned counsel can do better.

Madam Speaker, I want to talk about what the report is saying as the reason why there is failure, unavailability of medicine our facilities. The report is pointing to a health system failure. Supply chain has failed.

Madam Speaker, I want to talk about what the report is saying is the reason why there is unavailability of medicines in our facilities. The report is pointing to a health system failure. The supply chain has failed. The supply chain is one fundamental pillar in the health system. There are many other fundamentals like health care financing, which Ministry of Finance and National Planning has done by providing the money and human capital.

Madam Speaker, we do not have appropriate competencies in the team that is doing procurement. The cycle has failed. You provide the resources; do the forecasting for medicines; and place procurement timeously. If you are going to cancel a contract, I want you to know one notorious fact. Suppliers will not be waiting for you to come back. There is a queue. If you are supposed to be supplied in this month, you cancel a contract and do not put in measures to redeem, you will come and get your drugs six months later. We all procure from limited sources. It is very important that as you take certain decisions, you put in stop gap measures.

Madam Speaker, on the local manufacturing of medicines, there are reputable companies in this country that manufacture drugs. If the Government has the political will to create jobs, to prevent capital flight through external procurements, to ensure that health contributes to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP), it would actually promote local manufacturing of drugs. It could even provide tax waivers and incentives, as the report says.

Madam Speaker, it is sad as we talk of health care financing that our call to the Executive to revert the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA), as it was designed, to the Ministry of Health has fallen on deaf ears. I said it in my maiden speech and in every debate I have made. For health care financing, the system is dependent on NHIMA in this country. The report clearly picks out that the situation could have been worse without NHIMA. Take NHIMA back to the Ministry of Health.

Madam Speaker, auditors will be in these districts and they will tell you that you are supposed to spend up to four to ten per cent on medication, but we are spending 80 per cent. Consciously creating audit queries.

Madam Speaker, the misinformation on the Floor of the House needs to be corrected. Number one, I have seen that a lot of people think that by politicking and sustaining the Honey Bee Pharmacy Limited lie will stop women from dying because there are no medicines out there.

Ms Mulenga: Imagine!

Dr Chilufya: They think that will put medicines on the table.

Madam Speaker, an hon. Member of Parliament worth the title honourable will not sustain a lie even when facts are there on the table. He/she will not sacrifice science at the altar of political expediency. That trivia must be stopped. The blame game and the denial that our colleagues on the right are showing does show, itself, that they are not willing to resolve the problem.

They must take responsibility as the Executive and the Government of the day. They have their hands on the state levers of power. They should provide health services to the people, ensure universal health coverage through a sustainable health financing system and ensure health coverage is enhanced through –

The hon. Member’s time expired

Madam Speaker: Order, your time is up.

Dr Chilufya: … an enhanced supply chain.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Munsanje: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mbabala, I said no points of order. I know you want to debate. Can you debate now.

Laughter

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I just wanted to debate…

Interruptions

Mr Munsanje: … on a very small –

Madam Speaker: Order!

I am sorry. I understand you are a member of the Committee?

Mr Munsanje: I raised a point of order because I want to –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: No. I said there were no more points of order.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: We want to go through this process quickly.

Mr Munsanje: The records have been messed up.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I will not go into politics. All I want to do is, maybe, try and see if we can find a solution to some of these problems.

Madam Speaker, we need to start asking ourselves questions that we increased allocation from K700 million to K1.1billion last year. This year, we have gone to K1.5billion for the procurement of drugs. If we go down there in our clinics and medical facilities in rural areas, basically there are no essential drugs. This is the question we should start asking ourselves. Why? We have increased the budget allocation, but there is no medicine. The hon. Minister of Finance –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Nyimba!

Business was suspended from 1255 hours until 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, many are the times that we cry about money. We say we are not performing because the money is not there. However, in this case, by September this year, the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) received K2.9 billion from the Treasury, and this money should have cushioned the problems in different medical facilities. Rural health centres are the most hit and stock availability is at 23 per cent, and this is not good for us. We need to prevent diseases before they reach alarming levels, and the only way we can do that is by stocking the community clinics or small clinics and then we will avoid the big problems.

Madam Speaker, the Government has increased the money allocated to purchasing drugs, but why are we having problems? The people of Nyimba have some answers to this and a few recommendations. The transition process from the Ministry of Health procuring drugs to ZAMMSA was rushed, and this is the reason we are having problems. We ended up terminating contracts of the people who were supplying drugs, but did we even vet those people we gave new contracts? Did we do a background check on them? Did they have the capacity to deliver? The Public Procurement Act says we should fund the people a certain amount. However, this money should come with security from the bank or it should have insurance. Did these people have the capacity to deliver? This is why we have a problem and, today, we are crying. We terminated contracts of the people who were supplying drugs without finding a solution, and this is why we have a problem. Now that we know where the problem is and why we are not having medicines in the hospitals, let us see to it that ZAMMSA is given proper leeway, mandate and total freedom to engage people who can deliver.

Madam Speaker, it is a well-known fact that people were given contracts by ZAMMSA and three months later, they failed to deliver. The reason is very simple; they had no capacity to deliver. How do you give somebody 25 per cent of the total cost of the drugs without collateral? Further, 25 per cent of K20 million worth of drugs is huge. Will that person pay back the money? These are people without experience in the pharmaceutical industry and who have just jumped into the situation because the other set has been removed from the system. What I am saying here is that let us see to it that we empower ZAMMSA, so it engages people who can deliver.

Madam Speaker, there are about ten registered pharmaceutical manufacturing companies in Zambia, but those that are manufacturing drugs are about four. Are we giving these people framework contracts? I think, for now, few have been given.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that today in some hospitals, you will not even find intravenous fluids (IV) fluids, but there is somebody who manufactures those things in Zambia. You will not find paracetamol in some clinics, but there are companies that manufacture paracetamol in this country. This is the something that we are not considering. Why can we not first try to empower the locals as we are waiting for the major pharmaceutical industry to supply drugs?

Madam Speaker, we terminated the contract for the supply of medical centre kits. After we terminated this contract, did we have a plan to replace it? We had no plan, and this is why we have a problem. Let us start planning before we do anything.

Madam Speaker, let me give the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government advise. It found many problems when it took over power. It is normal to find what you do not like when you take over power.

When you remove people from an institution, see to it that you replace them. Do not leave a wall in between. We need to remove and replace people. Today, if you went to ZAMMSA, you would find that50 or 60 per cent of the workforce there has been replaced. Some of those people there maybe have no clue as regards certain things. Today, if you asked the Managing Director (MD) for ZAMMSA how many people are in the procurement department, he has no idea. He does not know the number; this is in the report. How do you think things are going to move?

Madam Speaker, my prayer is that from today, let us stop politicking when it comes to health matters. Can we do what is right. This thing is not going to fall on the hon. Minister of Health alone. No. This is for all of us. It is not that Hon. Sylvia Masebo has failed. No. She has not failed; we have failed as the Government. So, when we are tackling some of these issues, let us see to it that we use our brains and not our hearts. That will help us.

Madam Speaker, this thing of people from the Patriotic Front (PF) and the UPND fighting over matters of health issues should come to an end. Everyone here can fall sick and die. You may wish to note that I am on treatment. I have been going to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) for the last three months. In view of what I have been finding at UTH, there is nothing to call it a university teaching hospital for. It is just that there are proper doctors there, but we are letting them down. We need to empower the hospitals, and when we were debating the budget for the Ministry of Health, I asked whether the money for procuring equipment for our hospitals was enough. That money was not enough and we need to look at this.

The ZAMMSA today needs to go to the UTH and liaise with the technocrats there. What is it that we want first? It should then recommend to the hon. Minister the things that we need. When we reach that point, then I can see us moving as a country.

I thank you Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have been listening to the debate. Most of the issues have been brought out and now we are just being repetitive. We still have a lot of work to do and I can see there are still so many indications, maybe about six or seven. So, what we will do is to start winding up. I will call on the hon. Minister of Education to debate.

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, thank you so much. I was listening attentively to the Independent hon. Member for Nyimba debating. Standing Order No. 65 is clear on how hon. Members in this House should address other hon. Colleagues.

Madam Speaker, was my hon. Colleague, my good friend and brother, in order to refer to the hon. Minister of Health as ‘Sylvia Masebo’ instead of saying Hon. Masebo?

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I think it was a slip of the tongue. We are so used to calling each other by our names. However, in the House, we address ourselves as hon. Minister of Health, hon. Member of Parliament for Matero, Rt. Hon. Madam Speaker. So, we can –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Yes, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. Yes, all those. I think the hon. Member for Nyimba has taken note.

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Thank you, Madam Speaker. First of all, when debating this report, we must try to enquire where we are coming from. We are coming from a very bad past. When we came into Government in 2021, the supply of medicines was at 30 per cent. Today we are at 53 per cent, meaning that we are now climbing.

Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mansa Central, I had indicated earlier on that there would be no points of order. We have a lot of work that we have to deal with. So please, let this be the last point of order. After that, I am not taking any more points of order.

Dr Chilufya: Much obliged, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, this is an august House. We should maintain decorum and we must be factual, according to Standing Order No. 65. The hon. Minister of Education is an accomplished academic. On his phone, he can go into the database and check. Facilities were at 85 or 80 per cent. When you do an average, it was 60 to 65 per cent.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mansa Central –

Dr Chilufya: I am going to –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Mansa Central was given an opportunity to debate and he did state his facts. That was his position. Now, the other people are responding. Let us allow them to debate.

The hon. Minister of Education may proceed.

Mr Syakalima: Thank you, Madam Speaker. No one will launder himself here, okay. People must be careful. You cannot come here and want to launder or cleanse yourself here. There is no way. You know what happened. You cannot run from the past. So, this is what we are telling you.

Hon. PF Member: Just debate!

Mr Syakalima: Do not tell me to just debate. These are serious issues. You hon. Colleagues in the Patriotic Front (PF), you destroyed this country.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: All this is coming from yourselves.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Syakalima: So, Madam Speaker –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let me give guidance, please.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us give the opportunity to the hon. Minister to debate. However, hon. Minister, as you debate, please, do not go outside the report. Let us stick to the report and let us conclude this debate. We had done very well. At one point I was even toying with the idea of curtailing the debate but we were doing so well. We are almost coming to the conclusion. Please, let us keep that spirit.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, I was not here but I was hearing the debate. I have just come from a graduation ceremony in Chalimbana. I was hearing people saying “Do you know how many people have died?” Do you know how many people died when medicines were withdrawn five times? How many people died? You distributed condemned condoms, do you know how many people died?

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: So, we cannot come here in the name of it is a House which protects us. If you are a criminal, you are a criminal. Yes, the report is reminding all of us of the situation, but we must first of all agree that there was a problem. If you do not agree that there was a problem, you will never solve the problem. I have told people everywhere. I am not ashamed to tell even the donors who come to my institution. First of all, I tell them about the truth that the ten years were a wasted and lost decade of the PF. Many things happened. If you still remember, many donors left because of corruption for ten years. This is what we are responding to in the report. I can tell you that the contracts that are there now, you know, if he were here, I was going to tell him, the chain of distribution –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, please, debate through the Chair. Let us avoid acrimony.

Proceed, hon. Minister.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: I am actually difficult to provoke. So, when I am telling facts, they are just facts, okay. At that time, many donors left because of corruption. When we want to correct something, the chain of distribution cuts. So, who did that? It is the PF Government. Just to show you how mischievous they are.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: When the hon. Minister of Agriculture was trying to cleanse the system, the PF members went on anthills and started saying he has failed, yet the system whichthey left leaves much to be desired. So, even here, we are not going to agree that things are wrong today. Where did they come from?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: I urge my brother, the Chairman, to calmly withdraw the report …

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Syakalima:… because what we know ourselves is that the contracts are in process and in the first quarter of next year, all the drugs will be available. We are trying to achieve 70 per cent availability because we cannot get to 100 per cent in one year. So, you can see how many things we have done just within a year. I can see you look guilty.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Yes. This is why my brother there was saying the problem is that the power of social shame does not dawn on some people. Many of you should not even be standing, okay. The things that you did to this country are terrible, horrible. However, you see people laughing.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, please, help us to maintain harmony in the House. Stick to the report, please.

Mr Kapyanga: We want drugs in hospitals.

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, I am a reverend, I also teach about morality. Otherwise, we had immoral people who did not care about others, who destroyed the Ministry of Health, but today, they still rise and want to be seen. This is why the Bible says, “you brood of vipers”. So, we are not going to allow people to launder themselves here. It is finished!

Interjection

Mr Syakalima: I have told you.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members, please!

You are also inciting by debating while seated. You were given an opportunity to debate, and you debated. Now, it is their time to respond and then we make progress.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Syakalima: As I wind up, so that–

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, as I wind up, so that I leave room for my sister to come and lay a few facts. For me, the issue here is about morality. To tell you the truth, if I were in the shoes of the Patriotic Front (PF),I would be coming here reluctantly.

Hon PF Members: Ah!

Mr Syakalima: Yes!

Madam Speaker, I said, had I been in the shoes of the PF, I would be coming here reluctantly.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Please, let us maintain order.

Mr Syakalima: The PF destroyed the country, but in one year, we have done good enough...

Hon. PF Member: Question!

Mr Syakalima: ...and we are headed for good things. They even know that. So, I will leave them with these words: please wear a hat that depicts morality.

Madam Speaker, with these very few words, I thank you most sincerely.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate this very topical matter that has been on the Floor for a long time. My hope was that this report was going to help me to improve. Unfortunately, I am saddened. Your Committee had good intentions, but clearly, it seems people jumped on this occasion to politicise this report. This is why I said in the beginning that this report was leaked before it came to us who were supposed to respond to it. This shows that for them, this was about politics. That is point number one.

Madam Speaker, point number two–

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Hon. Member for Lumezi, I have already guided that there are no more points of order. Please, let us finish. We have so much work to do. Unless it is a matter of life and death, let us allow the hon. Minister to conclude.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I will restrict myself to the report and try to explain why this report missed a good opportunity to help us improve the issue of drug availability in this country. From the outset, I want to state that at no point did I say the situation is good. I have never said that. I want to put that on record. What I objected to is for somebody to come here and lie that there are no drugs. This report has justified my statement by telling us that overall, the availability of drugs across the country; in level one hospitals, level two hospitals, level three hospitals and all health posts, was at 53 per cent.

Madam Speaker, we are laypersons here, we depend on that. When we took office, we found that we were at 30 per cent. So, obviously, I would be correct to state that there is an improvement, ...

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mrs Masebo: ...although it is not good enough. We have said that what is desirous is for the availability of drugs nationally to be at 70 per cent and 80 per cent because that is what the World Health Organisation (WHO) recommends to member states. Just aswe say when we are talking about funding, WHO says 15 per cent of your National Budget should go towards health. We found it at about 6 per cent or 7 per cent, but immediately raised it to about 8.5 per cent and today, we are at 12.5 per cent. That means we are moving towards trying to ensure that we get to what WHO requires.

Madam Speaker, we said we had a problem of drugs shortages because we do not have qualified officers. Immediately, the President said, okay let us try to employ, and we employed 11,000 and by the end of that recruitment, we had over 12,000 health workers, which included specialists in the drug sector, which are pharmacists and pharmacy technologists. The following year, I came here and explained that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning had said it would give us extra money for 3,000 health workers. So, we hoped we could get more.

Madam Speaker, why am I saying that this report has not done justice to this important matter? Whilst your Committee’s findings can be said to be okay, on page 3, the report stated that of all the health facilities that this country has, 61 per cent are health centres, 29 per cent are health posts, 6 per cent are level one hospitals, which are district hospitals, and 4 per cent are big hospitals, which are called tertiary hospitals.

Madam, your Committee did a good job visiting most hospitals in all the provinces. By the way, congratulation to the people in the Southern Province because they are at 65 per cent drug availability rate, while the Central Province was at 58 per cent, with the national nationally rate at 53 per cent summarised as follows:

Province Drug Stock Availability Rate by Percentage

Copperbelt 46.4

North Western 47.7

Northern 48.3

Lusaka 49.2

Western 52.0

Eastern 54.6

Luapula 54.6

Muchinga 55.0

Central 58.3

Southern 65.1

Madam Speaker, then your Committee went to what constituent most of our health facilities, which are primary health care facilities province by province. Those were operating between 46.4 per cent and 65.1 per cent with the Southern Province at 65 per cent. It is the same story.

Madam, from there, it came to the stock out rate. We seem to be debating the rate of stock outs. That is the one your Committee said was at 59.8 per cent over the last nine months. In other words, medicines and supplies were only available 40 per cent of the time over the period. I am reading your Committee’s report. So, it is correct that we are at 53 per cent availability rate.

Madam, finally, when your Committee finally visited the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA),it found that stocks at the centre, according to its own report, were at 51 per cent.

Mr Simumba: That is the Speaker’s report.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Nakonde!

Mr Mposha: Naulya rice.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, on the observation on page 7, it says, stocks at ZAMMSA were at 51 per cent of the monthly stock as at 2^nd November, 2022, when the Committee visited.

Madam, let us now, go to the recommendations. Recommendation number one, which seems to be the core – I recall what the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said yesterday when he was debating and he said, “please, do not allow yourselves here in the House to be influenced by forces of agents that do not mean well for your country because by so doing, you will be misleading yourselves”.

Now, this report states that the availability of medical supplies at centre posts was at 23 – let me just read recommendation number one. It states that ZAMMSA should put in place stopgap measures to raise the supply rate, and that one way to mitigate the current shortages is for it to consider renegotiating and reinstating the “nine cancelled contracts.”

Madam Speaker, I do not even know what the Committee is talking about. Which nine contracts is it talking about? The Ministry of Health never cancelled nine contracts.

This same report tells us that the ongoing contracts that were under the Ministry of Health went to ZAMMSA. Of course, ZAMMSA may have terminated some contracts, just like the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) can terminate a contract if it is not in conformity with the Act. This is what some people have been pushing. When they went out to the press, they said the ministry should reinstate the nine contracts, but I do not know what they talk about.

Madam, if you go to the appendices at the end of this same document, it shows thirty-four contracts that ZAMMSA has given out between January and today. Of the thirty-four contracts, only three went to companies owned by citizens of Zambia. These citizens supplied 100 per cent without fault. As for the rest, some are at 100 per cent, 10 per cent yet others at 20 per cent. These are the so-called local suppliers they are talking about. They come here and say I must renegotiate to reinstate them.

Madam Speaker, this report is not helpful to me. It is not helping me.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Madam, secondly, it says ZAMMSA should be given autonomy to operate without external influence. However, the whole report has not cited where this interference is coming from. You can tell that this is all politics at play because it was supposed to guide and tell us exactly what we should avoid doing, but it simply says ZAMMSA should be given autonomy. ZAMMSA has been given all the autonomy.

Madam Speaker, it is this administration that brought the Act of 2019, which the previous administration signed to operationalise and bring into force, but left it like that. That administration did nothing. It did not capacitate ZAMMSA and did not put in place a board. It continued procuring drugs, including the controversial Honey Bee contract from the ministry. When we took over, we saw that there was an Act which had already been brought into force. The commencement order was signed by that administration. You do not sign something if you are not ready. Our job was to be in line with the Act. What we did was put in place a board and an interim Director-General. We told the board that the Director General would only be there for three months to give it time to advertise and get its own Director-General. That is what ZAMMSA has done.

The Hon. Minister’s time expired.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, your time is up. You can windup.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam, I thought you would use your discretion to give me some time to answer these very important questions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mrs Masebo: Otherwise, it would mean that we would not have done justice. There were too many speakers, by your own discretion –

Interruptions

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Maybe, what we can do is – I have seen an indication for a point of order. We will give you time so that you can exhaust the response. Perhaps there was not enough time, but before you continue, a point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I am extremely grateful to you for permitting me to rise on this very important point of order.

Madam, first of all, you are aware that certain Standing Orders were suspended, so, I do not understand why we are in a hurry to conclude business. This report is a very important report. The people of Lumezi have sent me to make certain submissions because they are convinced, beyond reasonable doubt, that this report is defective. It is the wish of the people of Lumezi that I should speak to that report.

Madam Speaker, I am not challenging your authority. You have stated that we are behind time, but common practice has shown that this House has debated pertinent issues up to midnight or 0100 hours. We are being paid taxpayers’ money. We had lunch sponsored by taxpayers. So, we will protest if you do not give us an opportunity to speak to a defective report like this one.

I submit, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: We work according to time. We are time bound and, of course, the Standing Orders were suspended, but because of the interest that this report has attracted, I am persuaded to allow everybody who had indicated to debate, and then the hon. Minister will come back to respond.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: However, we cannot be here until midnight. We have to go. Today is the last day, but we still have a lot of work. I know that there was the hon. Member for Lumezi, Mpika …

Mr Twasa: Kasenengwa was next!

Madam Speaker: … and Kasenengwa. We shall take three more contributions from the hon. Members of Parliament from Lumezi, Mpika and Kasenengwa and then the hon. Minister will come in and wind up.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for allowing us, by your discretion, to speak to this defective report.

Dr Kalila: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: You have been very consistent in your rulings. In our Standing Orders, there is nothing like a point of procedure. We are relying on Standing Orders.

Madam, this report is being called defective for one simple reason.

Madam Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Maybe let us allow the hon. Member to state what – we are now assuming what he is going to say.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: I think this is going to cause us a lot of problems. We need to make progress. Could the hon. Minister wind up within three minutes.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, another recommendation was that ZAMMSA should implement the 25 per cent advance payment for local suppliers as required by the Zambia Public Procurement Act, but that is obviously what it does. It follows that the ZPPA Act, except that for each contract that is given, one has to give what we call a security bond. Once you do that, by law, they will give you. Some suppliers will say they do not need it and will use their own money, but others will say they need it. When they request for it, they are given. That is why I am saying this report has not helped me.

Madam Speaker, another recommendation is that ZAMMSA should be funded timely and adequately. However, even hon. Members of Parliament from the Opposition said the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has done well. We all know that to date, 99 per cent of the resources have already been given out. So, to talk about funding, I think, is misplacement.

Madam Speaker, the other one was that the Government should fast-track the promotion of local pharmaceutical manufacturing through incentives such as tax waivers, as we have seen in mining.

Madam Speaker, it was in this House where the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning announced incentives. Imports of commodities or inputs for the production of drugs are zero-rated. There is no tax payable. So, I do not know what the Committee was trying to guide me to do.

Madam, another recommendation was that all district health offices should be provided with utility vehicles for collection and distribution. However, again, you know that distribution belongs to ZAMMSA. So, I cannot say that Chongwe must start collecting from ZAMMSA. That is ZAMMSA’s duty, according to the Act. Nonetheless, this Government desires to give utility vehicles to all districts, and it is doing that.

Madam Chairperson, another recommendation was that ZAMMSA should expedite putting its house in order. Okay. Well, we all have to put our houses in order. We continuously do that. I was hoping there would be something to do with the drugs which are missing, but nothing was said about that issue.

If you notice, it is more to do with suppliers and that the Zambia Public Procurement Authority Act must be amended. I do not want to amend the Zambia Public Procurement Authority Act to give business for Zambians to foreigners as a priority. That is not in our manifesto. We have said that Zambians first, and foreigners are welcome to partner with us. That is what the Zambia Public Procurement Authority Act is all about. I am being told to change that Act, but I cannot change it.

Madam Speaker, this is why I said that this report would have helped me if they had– maybe, they need more time; maybe, the time was short.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to wind up debate.

Madam Speaker, in so doing, I want from the outset to state that this was a special task that you gave this august House, in response to the concerns from the hon. Members of Parliament. This work was not generated by your Committee. It was never a topical issue which was generated or decided on its own. It is basically work that you gave to your Committee, and it was not an easy task.

Madam Speaker, this work basically qualifies to be your work, your report and the report of the hon. Members. Your Committee merely did work in response to the terms of reference which was to ascertain whether it is true that we have medicines or not, which we have ascertained and the hon. Minister has agreed with the bulk of our report by saying that in fact it is true.

Madam Speaker, I have noted that most hon. Members who debated both on the left and right generally supported the report, agreeing that this is the situation currently in the country.

Madam Speaker, recommendations just as the word says are recommendations. They are mere suggestions from your Committee which went round, delved into the various aspects that it found and are based on what your Committee was told. All hon. Members have been in Committees before. We report what we are told by the witnesses and we protect them using Cap.12. We never speak based on our own. We do not bring into reports our feelings, and that has never been the practice in this House.

Madam Speaker, in any case, this is a discourse that you generated yourself in order to get the collective wisdom of various hon. Members of Parliament, as an input, in arriving at the solution to this vexing problem of medications. I, therefore, see nothing wrong and strange in making suggestions. You either take suggestions or leave them. They are basically what they are. I encourage hon. Members of Parliament to realise that parliamentary scrutiny is the engine of parliamentary democracy. It is the only way through which we check the administration of the Government, and the reason we do that is to ensure that there are improved outcomes.

Madam Speaker, so, your Committee merely responded to the task that you gave it. We come before you to present to you what we found when we went round, and this is what we are reporting. It is entirely up to this august House and also those who are responsible for implementing some of the things that we brought out, to make a decision on what they feel about the report. It is not my report, but I thank all the Members of the Committee. It was not easy work. It is actually the first of its kind in terms of being specialised.

Madam Speaker, as regards the figures which were mentioned here, I want to explain that there is a difference between availability and the stock out rate. I do not have to belabour this because this has been agreed upon anyway.

Madam Speaker, this is the standard practise. We have brought the report and, generally, hon. Members have supported it. We are moving a Motion that they adopt it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members! You will not hear the question. Please, pay attention.

Hon. UPND Members called for a division.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members! Whichever way, you will make a decision by either voting yes or no. So, there is no need to, again, open the debate. We are in the process of voting, so no points of order. You can only raise one after we complete the process of voting.

Question that, this House do adopt the Special Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services on the availability of Medicines and Medical Supplies in Health Facilities, Countrywide, put and the House voted.

Ayes – (38)

Mr Allen Banda
Mr Chewe
Mr Chibombwe
Mr C. Chibuye
Mr Chisanga
Mr Chisopa
Mr E. Daka
Mr Fube
Mr Kalimi
Mr Kampyongo
Mr Kang’ombe
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Rev. Katuta
Mr Mabonga
Mr Mabumba
Mr B. Mpundu
Mr C. Mpundu
Mr Mtayachalo
Mr Mukosa
Mr Mulebwa
Ms K. Mulenga
Mr Mundubile
Mr Mung’andu
Mr Elias Musonda
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwambazi
Mr Mwila
Mr Peter Phiri
Ms M. Phiri
Mr Simumba
Mr M. Tembo
Mr Twasa
Mr Wamunyima
Mr Menyani Zulu
Mr Munir Zulu

Noes – (66)

Mr Amutike
Mr Anakoka
Mr Andeleki
Mr Emmanuel Banda
Mr Chaatila
Mr Chikote
Mr Chilundika
Mr Chinkuli
Ms Chisangano
Ms Halwiindi
Mr Hamwaata
Mr Hlazo
Mr Jamba
Mr Kambita
Mr Kamondo
Mr Kapala
Ms Kasune
Dr Katakwe
Mr Kolala
Mr Lihefu
Mr Lufuma
Mr Mabenga
Mr Mandandi
Mr Mapani
Ms Masebo
Mr Matambo
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbangweta
Mr Mbao
Mr Michelo
Mr Miyutu
Mr Moyo
Mr Mposha
Mr Mubika
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukumbi
Mr Mulaliki
Mr Mulunda
Mr Mulusa
Mrs Mulyata
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwene
Mr Nanjuwa
Mr Ngowani
Mr Nkandu
Mr Nkombo
Mr Nkulukusa
Mr Nzovu
Mr P. Phiri
Ms Sabao
Mr Samakayi
Ms Sefulo
Mr Siachisumo
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Simbao
Mr Simunji
Mr Simushi
Mr Simutowe
Mr Sing’ombe
Brig. Gen Sitwala
Mr Syakalima
Ms Tambatamba
Mr Tayengwa

abstentions – (03)

Mr J. Daka
Dr Kalila
Mr Munsanje

Question accordingly negatived.

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 88 – (Muchinga Province – K82,245,296), VOTE 90 – (Lusaka Province– K131,977,212), VOTE 91 – (Copperbelt Province – K111,226,666), VOTE 92 – (Central Province – K109,072,940), VOTE 93 – (Northern Province – K111,752,221), VOTE 94 – (Western Province – K119,328,492),VOTE 95 – (Eastern Province – K102,375,167), VOTE96 – (Luapula Province– K106,921,646), VOTE 97 – (North-Western Province – K102,563,027) and VOTE 98 – (Southern Province – K113,189,519)

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business (Mr Lufuma): Madam Chairperson, in closing, may I take this opportunity to appreciate all the hon. Members who diligently debated on the budget for provincial administration, Votes 88 to 98, for their active and valid contributions aimed at making provincial administration deliver on its mandate effectively.

Madam Chairperson, yesterday’s debates were not only lively, but awesome. Indeed, the debates by the hon. Members brought out very pertinent issues vis-à-vis our efforts and endeavours aimed at developing our respective provinces and country, as a whole. The issues raised included, but not limited to the following: road infrastructure, which was heavily debated road infrastructure was not unexpected. Not a single province did not mention road infrastructure as, perhaps, the most pertinent of challenges facing the development of the respective province, district and constituency. Most roads were said to be in deplorable state and therefore, needing urgent attention.

Madam Chairperson, imperative as this may be, it is important to note that the volume of roads required to be rehabilitated could literally blow away and swallow the whole budget. However, given the state of the economy, caution must be taken to service the mountain of debt inherited lest we find ourselves in a not so similar situation as the previous administration found themselves in of acquiring mountains of unsustainable debt. We do not want to go that way ever again.

Madam Chairperson, in this regard, the Government will prioritise roads that can be done through public private partnership (PPPs). Thereafter, the money saved shall then be utilised towards less economic, but critical roads. The feeder roads were also of critical concern and were heavily debated on.

Madam Chairperson, although we are in a hurry to develop our road network and, indeed, the economy, we, nevertheless, should be mindful of the fact that Rome was not built in a day.We must be prudent in the manner we utilise our resources by ensuring that we cut our coat according to the cloth, as it were.

Madam Chairperson, other areas of great interest were mining and mine development. It was said that the Copperbelt was bleeding and something ought and must be done about it. Special reference was made to Mopani and Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) and the effect the closure was having on the social, economic and political situation on the Copperbelt. The Government is aware of the situation and is, therefore, urgently addressing this soon rather than later. In this regard, positive outcomes are expected.

Madam Chairperson, the third issue that was raised is the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Our flagship programme could not escape scrutiny by hon. Members of Parliament. Hon. Members observed that although this was an exemplary programme, unprecedented in the history of Zambia, efficiency and effectiveness of the programme is rather is compromised due to a few challenges connected to or incidental to the procurement and approval processes. Hon. Members should be assured that the Government is addressing these challenges by reviewing the Constituency Development Fund Act, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority Act and the Public Finance Management Act. This will allow the said Acts to be in sync with and to speak to each other in order to smoothen the implementation of CDF.

Madam Chairperson, issues of accommodation for civil servants were also raised. It is important to develop schemes or mortgages that allow civil servants to enrol and start building their houses immediately they are employed. This is the normal practice in certain developed economies in order for them to deal with accommodation issues. This is the practice the world over. We should try and adopt the same.

Madam Chairperson, communication towers and poor connectivity in most rural areas were also mentioned. Hon. Members should be assured that the Government is looking into the issues of universal coverage with a programme that is currently in place under the Ministry of Technology and Science.

Madam, electric power and connection to the national grid with special reference to Luapula was equally an agenda item. Provincial based public universities were mentioned, especially in the North-Western Province and the Southern Province. It was said that as much as possible, the Government should try to construct universities there. Further, the university college for Kabompo, promised as far back as 2012 by the late President Sata, God bless his memory, which college was sited and ready for construction, was equally mentioned.

Madam Chairperson, constituency delimitation was equally raised, citing Mwinilunga and other constituencies as too large to manage with CDF failing to impact as desired due to the vastness of the constituencies. It should be noted, however, that this is a constitutional issue which has been on the drawing board for a while now. Capacity of the economy permitting, solutions lie in reviewing the Constitution.

Madam, by and large, the respective provincial hon. Ministers ably addressed most issues and in the interest of time, I will not belabour the points. So, thank you very much to the provincial hon. Ministers and commendations go to them. Other than that, the Government, through the provincial administration will ensure that these resources reach the intended beneficiaries by:

enhancing internal controls to maximise the utilisation of public resources for effective service delivery;
ensuring the development of entrepreneurial skills, especially among the youth and women, in order to address the evident rural underdevelopment and poverty;
reinforcing public service management systems, procedures and processes for improved service delivery; and
ensuring timely and consistent disbursement of funds to the provincial administration for efficient and effective implementation of various socio-economic projects and programmes has obviously been the case this fiscal year, 2022, thanks to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Well done hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. We hope you will keep it up even in 2023.

Madam Chairperson, political, social and economic equity was an issue that was hotly debated as you may remember. I would like to say a word or two about the all-important question of equity. Equity in the manner we share national cake, national resources and development is vital to keeping this country in equilibrium. It builds consensus. Equity fosters and builds unity and unity promotes peace. Peace is a prerequisite to political, social and economic progress and prosperity.

Madam, this administration will anchor its social economic transformation agenda on equity and unity of purpose. The Republican President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, has been very categorical and emphatic on the issue of equity. The country has been polarised and split into two regional blocks and must, therefore, as a matter of urgency and priority, be unified.

Madam Chairperson, CDF is a case in point. Unlike in the past administration, all constituencies received funds and they all got the same quantum and at the same time. This reinforces unity. This is a clear demonstration of the new administration’s passion of commitment to equity in the manner we distribute national resources.

Madam Chairperson, all this renders credence to the One Zambia One Nation credo or motto and I might add one nation, one people. I will end by saying and quoting founding President Kenneth Kaunda in his famous song entitled “Tiyende Pamodzi ndi mutima umozi”, meaning let us move forward in unison, harmony and peace.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Votes 88, 90, Vote 91 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 92 – (Office of the President – Central Province – K 109,072,940).

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry to interrupt the work that you are doing right now.

Madam Chairperson, when I look around, I do not think we have a quorum in the House. I am wondering why we are still continuing with the Business of the House when the quorum has collapsed. So, I would like to know why we are breaching the Standing Orders of the House.

The Chairperson: Thank you, hon. Member. In fact, when the quorum drops, an indication is usually given to the Presiding Officer. So, as at now, I have not received any indication. Once I receive the indication, I am going to announce that we have no quorum.

Do we have quorum?

Hon. Members, I am told that the quorum is down by two people.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: We have the quorum now. We can make progress.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members.

Vote 92 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairperson: The voices are getting louder and louder.

Vote 97ordered to stand part of the Estimates

VOTE 98 – (Office of the President–Southern Province – K113,189,519).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 952, Table 5: Programme Budget Allocation by Sub-programme, under programme 6101: Community Development and Social Services, Sub-programme 066 Sports Development, by the deletion of K147,450 and the submission therefor of K495,988; and on page 956, Table 5: Programme Budget Allocation by Sub-programme, under Programme 6103: Economic Development, Sub-programme 002 Survey Services, by the deletion of K2,206,151 and the substitution therefor of K1,857,613.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 948. The budget for the Southern Province last year was K94,549,380 and has been increased to K113,189,519 next year. I see that most of it is for personal emoluments on Table 1,Item 21. Personal emoluments are taking K90,787,688, which is close to 80 per cent of the budget for the Southern Province. Why is the budget for the Southern Province not showing what else will be done in the province?

The Chairperson: Just to guide. We are supposed to agree with the amendment that should be included in the actual budget. An amendment has been proposed by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, so, we have to agree to that amendment then we can later on come to your issue.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, we are not privy to those amendments in the House.

The Chairperson: Okay.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, members of the public are following. They need to know what those amendments are.

The Chairperson: In fact, the hon. Minister was called upon to move the amendments and some papers were circulated. Let us close the amendment, so that we are in agreement with it.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

VOTE 98, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, I already mentioned that I have seen the budget for the Southern Province. It wasK94,549,380this year, and next year, it has risen toK113,189,519,showing an increment of 20 per cent. On page 948, it shows what that money will be used for and 80 per cent of it or K90 million will go towards personal emoluments. For goods and services, only K22,246,576has been allocated for that and for assets, K155,255,which is less than a million. So, the budget for the Southern Province will just be about paying people, and it is not showing the activities that will be done in 2023 in the Southern Province. However, the Bottom Road, Macha Road, Shampande Road, Monze/Niko Road and other roads in the valley need to be worked on. What is the plan? It is not shown in the budget for the Southern Province. I seek to be educated.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, I thank my brother, Hon. Sampa, who has requested that I educate him on the funding for the provincial administration, and he has indicated that 80 per cent is for emoluments.

Madam Chairperson, I am consoled having realised that he is a former Provincial Minister for the Southern Province, who understands that the provincial administration does not get into the business of constructing roads such as the one he is referring to, the Monze/Niko Road. The budget is skewed towards emoluments because it is purely administrative. However, I understand him. I actually doubt if he has read.

Laughter

Mr Mweetwa: I am very doubtful, but it is very typical of the PF.

Laughter

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, all the programmes that are in all the other provinces are here. I will educate him outside.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter

VOTE 99 – (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – Ministry of Finance and National Planning – K54,965,481,836).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, let me start by thanking you for the opportunity to present the policy statement on the 2023 Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning focusing on Vote 99 ˗ Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure.

Madam, as I indicated during my policy statement for Votes 21 and 37, one of the mandates of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is effective resource mobilisation and allocation of resources to foster sustainable growth and development. Vote 99 is dedicated for payment of all debt obligations for the Republic and this includes external and domestic debts which are charges on the consolidated fund as stipulated in the Constitution of Zambia. Further, this vote covers centralised provisions for yet to be allocated expenditure on items such as contingency, recruitments and public service pay policy.

Madam Chairperson, in 2022, K86,072,058,759 was allocated under Vote 99 of which K51,315,495,960 was allocated to the external debt obligations for principal, interests and other debt related payments. Just to correct myself, In 2022, K86,072,058,759 was allocated under vote 99 of which K51,315,495,960 was allocated to external debt obligations for principle, interest and other debt related payments.

Madam Chairperson, a total of K27,364,645,716 was allocated for domestic debt service, interest payments of which K19.1 billion was for interest payment on Government Bonds, K7.2 billion for interest payments on Treasury Bills and K1.1 million for payments of debt obligations to Commercial banks. Currently, interest payments on Government Bonds and Treasury Bills have been made in the sum of K19 billion and K7 billion, respectively, while debt obligation on commercial banks have been paid in the sum of K529 million.

Madam Chairperson, K185 million was set aside to the contingency vote under this Vote to cover unforeseen and unavoidable expenditures that would arise in 2022. To this effect, the funds have been released to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), the Ministry of Agriculture and the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). The funds were used to facilitate evacuation of Zambians in Ukraine, control of army worms and by-elections, respectively.

Madam, K3.9 billion was set aside for other payroll considerations while K3.3 billion was set aside for the centralised recruitment across the public sector which saw the recruitment of teachers, health personnel and now in the security wings and also facilitated the enhancement of the condition of services for the public services workers.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to repeat our commitment to management the country’s debt prudently and sustainably by ensuring that the existing and suitable debt is restructured and that all future borrowings are considered under sustainable framework with increased oversights by the hon. Members of this House in line with the provisions of the Public Debt Management Act No. 15 of 2022. The Government will also continue with the established practice of keeping the Zambian citizens and other stakeholders informed on debt service management, issues through the comprehensive debt reporting and publication. This includes publication of strategic debts related documents such as the debt sustainability analysis and the medium-term strategy for debt, as prescribed in the Debt Management Act, so that even hon. Members of this House can be equipped with relevant information requirement to perform their oversight role.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, in the 2023 Budget, a total of K54,965,481,836 has been budgeted for. The main expenditure categorised under this year are external debt service, domestic debt service, contingency, centralised recruitment and other payroll considerations. K18,234,338,486 has been allocated to external debt service for principle loan repayment, interests and other debt related charged to external creditors. The 2023 allocation to external debts service has decreased by 65 per cent from 2022 mainly due to the fact that in 2022, we had an allocation of K750 million for the Euro bond which was maturing in September, 2022. This allocation was included on understanding that the amounts will be refinanced. K30,530,000,000 has been allocated to the domestic debt service to cover interest costs on Treasury Bills, Government Bonds and other domestic financial institutions. The 2023 allocation has only increased by 11 per cent from the 2022 allocation.

Madam Chairperson, the centralised recruitment has been allocated K2,087,875,517to facilitate a further recruitment for approximately 15,500 personnel across the Civil Service with priority given to the security wings, that is, the Zambia Army, the Zambia Air Force, the Zambia National Service, the Zambia Police Service, extension officers in the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock, and teachers. Furthermore, a provision of K3.8 billion has been set aside to cover other pay role consideration in particular the wage awards under the public sector which will be apportioned across ministries and other Government agencies. Finally, a total of K300 million has been allocated to the contingency Vote to manage unforeseen and unavoidable expenditures.

Madam Chairperson, as I indicated in my 2023 Budget Speech, the Government is committed to managing the country’s debt prudently and sustainably by ensuring that existing and sustainable debt is restructured. With the International Monitory Fund (IMF) supported programme in place, Zambia is now engaging the creditors to conclude the debt restructuring programme which will then result in adjusting our current debt repayment profiles to affordable levels.

With these remarks, I now recommend that Vote 99 be considered to approval by this august House.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate Vote 99 – Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure.

Madam Chairperson, it is a statutory obligation that salaries have to be paid and it is also constitutional that any debt that we acquire must be repaid with the interest or the cost of borrowing. Therefore, the hon. Minister is right by providing that much to meet the obligations that are dictated by our laws.

Madam Chairperson, when I reflect back, during the tenure of our colleagues, I recall that at some point, even statutory obligations were delayed. People had to be paid after the date they were supposed to be paid. I know that what is provided for here is mainly for the line ministries, but I want to comment a bit on institutions that depend on government funding to pay salaries like the local authorities. In yester years, we had situations where local authorities had arrears for eleven months and some government institutions were almost degenerating into the same situation. Even this very House, at some point, started receiving salaries late because of poor management. So, I am very happy that the situation has stabilised, and looking at the way the New Dawn Administration is prudently managing resources and ensuring budget credibility, I am very optimistic that all statutory obligations in the coming year will be met.

Madam Chairperson, what remain now to deal with is the debt burden. I am aware that a lot of effort has been put in. Those of us who are outside may not understand how much pressure the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and his team are going through to try to manage the situation. I remember making an illustration, at some point, to Her Honour the Vice-President on how difficult it to raise revenue in order to meet our monthly obligations. I will repeat the illustration today. The situation, even as at now, although it is improving, is such that, out of every K1 that we raise as revenue, we need to meet approximately 70 per cent of our constitutional obligations and somewhere around 40 per cent to pay debt. So, the total comes to a requirement of around K1.15 to meet what we are looking at in this Vote, which is statutory obligation and constitutional obligations. This means that what we are raising is less by about K15 to meet those two obligations. So, where will that K15 come from? You need to borrow again. That is why the Government has to go through Treasury Bills to intermediaries like commercial banks to meet just these obligations. What about the other obligations like health, education and the like? That is how tough the situation is. That is why some of us who understand, do not make these wild requests for further financing for this and that. Understandably, that is why we have seen the slowing down of investment in infrastructure. That is why the Government has opted that if it means going into roads, it should just be for maintenance purposes and not big capital projects because we cannot afford that going by the scenarios I have given.

Madam Chairperson, I support the budget allocation for statutory obligations and constitutional obligations. In any case, this the only way we are going to get our credibility back, especially that we are actually in the middle of negotiating with official creditors so that many of our sins may be forgiven. Then, we can have some breathing space to release more money towards service delivery to improve many other situations, and our constituencies can get back to getting the much-needed services.

Madam Chairperson, I thought I should make those comments just to contextualise what the hon. Minister has just announced and to support that budget accordingly.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I thank Hon. Kambita for his contribution on this subject. All I can say is that he was spot on.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 99 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Estimates of Expenditure (Including Capital and Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure) for the year 1^st January, 2023 to 31^st December, 2023 were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments.

Report adopted and Madam Speaker appointed the hon. of Finance and National Planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect to the resolution of the Committee of Supply.

_______

BILL

FIRST READING

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2022

The following Bill was read the first time:

The Appropriation Bill, 2022.

Second Reading now.

SECOND READING

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2022

The Minister of Finance and National Planning Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, the Bill before this House is a culmination of the assignments that we started in the Committee of Supply on the 2023 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure that started with the presentation of the 2023 Budget address on Friday, 30^th September, 2022. I wish to express my profound gratitude to you, Madam Speaker, the Chairperson of the Committee, Her Honour the Vice-President, leaders of all political groupings and hon. Members of Parliament as well as the management of this House for the role that each has played in reaching the conclusion of the 2023 Budget.

Madam, I also wish to thank our cooperating partners whose continued support through the Budget is a clear indication of the faith that they have in our Government’s development agenda. As this House concludes business today, in approving the 2023 Budget, let me point out that the most important assignment ahead of us is its execution.

Madam Speaker, let me repeat that our country has now regained respect, hope and admiration among other nations in the world for the strong efforts we are making to improve the economy and the livelihoods of our people. We have restored stability in the exchange rate, lowered inflation and our Budget credibility is now the best it has been from as far back as most of us can remember. Our debt level is now placed on a clear path towards sustainability.

Madam, let me provide a reminder of the status of our economy and how the 2023 Budget, and subsequent Budgets, come in. The major threat to the attainment of our economic development aspirations is the debt distress situation. This is a problem that could have been avoided had the previous Government listened to our discerning views on the need for prudent borrowing. What is encouraging, however, is that this Government is more than committed to addressing the debt problem in order to ensure that more and more resources are channelled towards uplifting the welfare of our citizens.

Madam Speaker, it is in line with our commitment that this Government managed to secure a US$1.3 billion International Monetary Fund (IMF) funded programme and financing assurances from our official creditors. The official assurances we obtained from our official creditors are an indication of their willingness to engage in debt restructuring discussions. We are now looking forward to the signing of the memorandum of understating (MOU) with the official creditors which will trigger bilateral debt restructuring discussions to benefit us. In parallel, the Government has commenced engagement with private creditors. For all those private creditors with whom we will reach a consensus, agreements will be signed to reflect the reprofiled debt in line with the objectives of the Debt Sustainability Analysis.

Madam Speaker, as we fix the debt problem in the 2023 Budget, we are fully aware of other key priorities that we must address. Among many priorities is stimulating and sustaining economic growth so that we can create enough jobs to reduce poverty, generate sufficient tax revenue to fund infrastructure, pay for social services, improve the livelihoods of our people and, thereby, reduce inequalities. This Budget has provided sufficient incentives to spur industrialisation. It has set the stage for the revival of production in the mining sector to reach three million tonnes.

Madam, we are designing and implementing policies and strategies to attract investment in sectors such as agriculture, mining, tourism and manufacturing that will drive economic activity and, in turn, raise economic growth. In the agriculture, fisheries and livestock sub-sectors, we have provided for farming inputs, enhancement of extension services, improved market access, financing to farmers and the development of irrigation systems.

Madam Speaker, in the area of infrastructure, thousands of jobs will be created as we get some of our roads and aerodromes across the country constructed, maintained and rehabilitated. The 2023 Budget will continue taking resources to every corner of the country through the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF) so as to address challenges faced by communities, especially in rural areas. Priority will be given to improving water and sanitation and health and education facilities, procuring school desks and electrifying small business entities, schools and hospitals.

Madam Speaker, as we implement the 2023 Budget, the Government will take real measures to enhance the delivery of social services in the country. In this regard, the Government will continue with the recruitment of teachers and health personnel and continue to provide free education up to secondary school level. The Social Cash Transfer Programme and other social safety nets will also continue.

Madam, the vulnerable people of this country have a special place at the centre of this Government’s heart. Therefore, I wish to indicate that the 2023 Budget aims to achieve socio-economic transformation by implementing measures to stimulate growth and ultimately improve the livelihoods of our people. It also provides the policy framework, resources and incentives to drive growth and jobs.

Madam Speaker, as we adjourn today, obviously, hon. Members of Parliament will go back to their constituencies. I want to say that in the last twelve months, the Government has made profound changes. I remember in the past, on a day like this one when we are concluding the Budget, many hon. Members of Parliament would scratch their heads because they would not know what to say when asked by the people or voters in their constituencies what was in the Budget for them. However, today, I believe that when all hon. Members of Parliament reach their constituencies, they shall be very confident.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, we shall be confident because when the voters ask where the school they have been waiting for is, we will say do not worry, we have K28 million in the bank. When they ask where the clinic is, an hon. Member will say do not worry, he/she has K28 million in the bank. When they ask where water is, the hon. Member of Parliament will say, by 2026 and in view of the money he will receive, all the clinics will have running water, not with a muchokocho but with a solar pump properly installed.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I must say this is progress.

Hon. Member: What is muchokocho?

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I am being asked to interpret what muchokocho means. Muchokocho is a hand pump with a long handle. When you move it up and down, it produces a sound like chokochokochoko.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, that will slowly be replaced. I believe this is real progress because in the past, these little items gave hon. Members of Parliament many headaches.

Madam Speaker, when the roof of a classroom got blown away, you had to wait, maybe, for two years before you could replace it. The mere fact that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is now being released100 per cent every year is big progress …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … because during the last five years the Patriotic Front (PF) Government was in power, when it was K1.6 million, it only managed to release it in two and half years, not every year. So, the fact that we are now releasing K28 million to all the constituencies 100 per cent or in full, you agree with me that the hon. Members of Parliament are very happy about that.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I listened very carefully to the hon. Members of Parliament who debated the provincial budget, and the biggest grievance is the state of the roads. I fully appreciate that because after all even me, I am a Member of Parliament. For me, there is not even a gravel road in my constituency. So, I fully appreciate that. What is sad, however, is that the people who were pushing very hard for road projects are my colleagues from the PF. Truly speaking, the PF Government borrowed a lot of money in this country and it said it was dealing with infrastructure. It even said those from other provinces were suffering, but for those who voted for the PF, their roads were okay. However, today, we know in actual fact that it did not work on the roads in their provinces. So, the question that we are all asking–

Interruptions

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for permitting me to raise this point of order.

Madam Speaker, I know that when we were closing school, as young people, it was normal to fight on closing day, and you would beat the one who caused you a lot of trouble.

Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No.65, on being factual.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning used the word muchokochoko, knowing very well that his tie is longer than the example he cited; he is not being factual. It is not my intent to beat anyone who has offended me during this meeting.

Madam Speaker, I know you are not a diramba. I expect your serious ruling.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: I have nothing to rule on that matter.

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65,on content of speech, and it is on the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, a man whom I respect so much and has a lot of wisdom.

Madam Speaker, on the Floor is the Appropriation Bill, but the hon. Minister has gone all over the show, complaining about his own constituency and the roads that were not worked on, yet when he was an hon. Minister in the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) Government, in his area, the Mongu/Kalabo Road, the Sioma Bridge and Kazungula Bridge were worked on. Is he in order to divert from the 2022 Appropriation Bill and to talk about other issues that can open a pandora box?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister is talking about the implementation of the Budget because it is through this Appropriation Bill that the money will be released in order to implement the Budget and he is just highlighting the issues that still require funding. So, the hon. Minister is in order.

May he proceed.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, indeed, this is the time when I have to respond to some of the most critical issues that were raised, and the road sector is one such issue. I repeat that in Liuwa, there is not even a gravel road. Liuwa is not Kalabo. Liuwa is part of Kalabo District, but the road went to Kalabo, and Liuwa is somewhere else.

Madam Speaker, I was saying that money was borrowed, but we are left wondering why so many roads were not fixed. Where did the money go, those billions of dollars?

Madam Speaker, as I said, I sympathise with my colleagues on the issue of the roads and we will deal with this issue in two ways. We are seated here complaining about the roads, but we have to be mindful that roads are not worked on by merely wishing them to be worked on. Money must be made. The country must make money so that we can address the deficit of infrastructure. We will grow the economy and restructure the debt, and will release some money to attend to the roads.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank the House for the support.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill was read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee today, 16^th December, 2022.

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2022

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

First, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth Schedules ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SEVENTH SCHEDULE

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Chairperson, permit me to take you to the Ministry of Education on page 10. The amount allocated to Youth and Adult Literacy compared to Management and Support Services is a concern to the people in Lumezi for a simple reason.We have been recommending people that should be our grandparents in many positions. Here, on Youth and Adult Literacy the funding has drastically reduced. I know that I am putting up an objection because this document was only circulated to us in the last hour…

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Munir Zulu: …whether it is by practice, we are not here to inherit wrong and ugly practices.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member –

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Chairperson, I am still on the Floor. I know Hon. Muchima, with a beard like mine. I hold him in high esteem.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Allow me to flow.

I know Hon. Muchima is strategically seated to be looking at me to intimidate me because we have the same beard. So, allow me to flow.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Chairperson, I know you are not a Diramba like the Gabonese referee, you will allow me to exhaust my thought.

The Chairperson: Oaky, except the procedure is that we had passed through the Head where we were looking at the individual Head where these figures are appearing. So, we were thinking that you should have raised the questions at that point because you are talking about figures when we are doing Vote 99.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

The Chairperson: Now, we have already passed that stage.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Chairperson, maybe, I am using the word ‘maybe’ not to offend anyone. We have come to Parliament at a wrong time. We have adopted wrong practices. Maybe, as we relook at our Standing Orders, these are some of the things we should relook at because we are limited on how we submit on figures. So, I am just putting myself on record that the right things should be done in the near future.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: In fact, you have raised that point at the right time because the House is at the moment revising the Standing Orders. So, you are free before they finalise revising the Standing Orders to bring in all those issues.

We make progress.

EIGHTH SCHEDULE

The Chairperson: Mr Sampa, it is objection to what?

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Chairperson, you said any debate. So, on page 12, I have a serious issue to raise.

The Chairperson: You can go ahead.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, on page 12 of the Appropriation Bill, 2022, item 98, Office of the President – Southern Province. Item 6102 – Natural Resource Management has been allocated K16,609,194. My question is on that amount. In the Southern Province, we have a lot of natural resources.

There are a lot of minerals, especially in Mapatizya. We have amethyst, black tourmaline, titanium, tin and many other minerals in Kabanga area of Mapatizya off Kalomo. However, the road there has not been worked on. So, I want to know if this amount of K16 million which has been provided will be enough to manage the natural resources that are in Mapatizya, in Kabanga area.

That is the clarification I seek, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, your observation is noted and it is same request that was being made by the hon. Member for Lumezi. You were supposed to have made comments when we were doing individual items. We have already passed that stage.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members.

Title agreed to.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Appropriation Bill, 2022

Madam Speaker: This brings us to the end of the business. From me to you: Merry Christmas and a prosperous new year.

_______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, may I take this time also, if you may allow, by leave of the House, as Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, to wish you a merry Christmas and happy New Year. That also includes our hon. Colleagues there and everybody else.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn sine die.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

House adjourned accordingly at 1716 hours on Friday, 16^th December, 2022, sine die.

__________

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