Friday, 18^th November, 2022

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON MR M. PHIRI, HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, ON FERTILISER FOR FARMERS

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public impAortance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J.E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of PetaUKthis opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance. It is directed at –

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I am asking for your protection.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker:Proceed, hon. Member for Petauke Central.

Please, we have a lot of work on our hands so if we can quickly go through that, I will really appreciate.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your guidance. The matter is directed at the hon Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, in Petauke, more than 5,000 farmers did not collect farming inputslast year and were promised that this year they would collect their inputs together with the farmers who are collecting inputs this season, and it would be done concurrently. These farmers in Petauke are stranded as they have not received that fertiliser. They do not know what to do.

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance.

Madam Speaker: First of all, hon. Member for Petauke Central, that matter which you have raised does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. Also, please, do acquaint yourself with the operations of the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Do visit him. Have a chat with him. Go for tea while you are here instead of asking questions which do not qualify to be asked as such. We have a lot of work before us and we want to ensure that we use out time properly.

May Her Honour the Vice-President indicate Business of the House for next week.

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, let me give the House an indication of the business it will consider next week.

Madam, on Tuesday, 22^nd November, 2022, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. That will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Votes:

1. Head 87 – Anti-Corruption Commission; and
2. Head 78 – Zambia Security Intelligence Service – Office of the President.

Madam Speaker, on Wednesday, 23^rd November, 2022, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer. Then the House will consider a Private Member’s Motion entitled ‘Register Board Members with the Institute of Directors of Zambia’ to be moved by Mr Mukosa, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chinsali Parliamentary Constituency. That will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Votes:

1. Head 45 – Ministry of Community Development and Social Services;
2. Head 46 – Ministry of Health; and
3. Head 51 – Ministry of Transport and Logistics.

Madam, on Thursday, 24^th November,2022, the Business of the House will commence with Questions for Oral Answer. Thereafter the House will consider presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Votes:

1. Head 52 – Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation; and
2. Head 53 – Ministry of Green Economy and Environment.

Madam Speaker, on Friday, 25^thNovember, 2022, the Business of the House will start with The Vice-President’s Question Time. Thereafter, the House will deal with Questions for Oral Answer. The House will then consider presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Votes:

1. Head 54 – Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development;
2. Head 62 – Ministry of Energy; and
3. Head 66 – Ministry of Technology and Science.

I thank you, Madam.

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THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Madam Speaker: Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. The hon. Leader of Government Business –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Sorry, the hon. Leader of the Opposition.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I receive that position in Jesus’ name.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: It was a slip of the tongue, sorry.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, the nation is concerned regarding the positions that the Government has given over the audit of the defence forces and the intelligence units. We have received three different positions from the Government. We listened to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning yesterday, we listened to the hon. Minister of Defence, and we listened to Her Honour the Vice-President. Three different positions have been given by three members of the same Cabinet. What is very clear or the golden thread from these positions is that they point to the fact that the law was not followed when the audit and consultancy firms were contracted. The law was not followed. The Government broke the law.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, what motivated the Government to proceed with the illegality in the manner that it did when it contracted these audit services?

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, let me start by reminding the hon. Leader of the Opposition that …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President:… natwikalapo kale.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I am already there, my son. I am the Leader of Government Business in the House. That is it.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member said there are different positions and concluded that the law was broken. This statement by the hon. Member is very vague. He has not even given the positions that are different from what has been given. We were here yesterday with a ministerial statement. What more do you want? This House has been informed very clearly. In my statement, I never at one time said the law was broken, and in the statement, there was never an admission that the law was broken. If that is the understanding, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mporokoso Constituency and Leader of the Opposition may have to find the interpretation elsewhere. I do not think there is a contradiction at all, in the manner that we have tackled this question, neither in what I have given nor what the hon. Minister said.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving the people of Kabwe Central Constituency an opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question. Let me start by saying thank you so much for providing security within these premises. The spirit of Judas Iscariot is real.

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, –

Interjections

Madam Speaker: Order!

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, as the eagle flies high, yet sees the snake on the ground, so does the office of this land and the Government machinery see everything that is happening in this land. My question is –

Interjections

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kampyongorose.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, I do not expect that conduct from you. You are a Whip. You have no right to stand and start addressing the House before you are recognised. Let us observe order and respect each other, please. Hon. Member for Chienge, you are shouting too much. I can hear you from here.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Madam Speaker: Can we behave ourselves, as hon. Members. Can we allow the hon. Member for Kabwe Central to ask her question. Hon. Member for Kabwe Central, you may proceed.

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, I did not want to waste much of your time. As hon. Members, we are not the only ones who enter these premises. There are so many people who enter these premises. So, what is the worry with our hon. Members?

Madam Speaker, I made a comment that as the eagle flies high, it is able to see the snake that crawls on the ground, so does the highest office of this land and the Government machinery. My question is: What message does Her Honour the Vice-President have for the people who sit in dark corners planning atrocities for this country? Furthermore, what is her message to people who utter words which may border on the security of this nation and have the potential to scare our investors who are ready to work with us to develop this country?

The Vice-President:Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabwe Central who premises her question on an eagle that flies so high, yet it is able to see the snake on the ground. Her question is what advice I have for those who may be sitting in dark corners plotting against their own country.

Madam Speaker, what advice do I have? All of us only have one Zambia. It does not matter who you are. All of us in this country are supposed to work to protect our country. We have only one country. It does not matter where you will go, you will be called some name. You will either be a political or economic refugee or, indeed, a person in exile for criminality. However, this is the only place we call home. All of us are supposed to look after it. All of us are supposed to work for its interest. We are all supposed to work to ensure that we attract investment which will make the lives of our people better. Therefore, if you are sitting anywhere in any corner of this country plotting against your own country, you are plotting against yourself. It means you are plotting against your children and your children’s children. You cannot do that. I pray there is nothing like that.

Madam Speaker, I pray there is nothing like that because such a thing is detestable to God and man.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, on 14^thOctober, 2022, His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema revoked the appointment of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) and appointed Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri, the director of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) as the DPP.

Madam Speaker, today is 18^th November, 2022. This appointment was made on 14^th October, 2022, and it should have already been subjected to Parliament for ratification. What is the delay in ratifying Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri’s appointment as DPP?

The Vice-President:Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Nalolo for that question of concern. Indeed, the hon. Member’s concern is that after the appointment, it has taken a bit long for that appointment to come here for ratification. I will follow up and find out where we have a hitch.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr P. Phiri (Mkaika): Madam Speaker, yesterday, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning told this House that private auditors who were contracted to audit the defence forces were contracted by the Secretary to the Treasury, contrary to what Her Honour the Vice-President said last week that these private auditors were contracted by the Auditor-General.

Madam Speaker, may Her Honour the Vice-President clarify and state the correct position of who contracted these private auditors.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I think we should read between the lines even when we are talking. I think that the hon. Member may have to bring the verbatim of what I said; to show the chain and where – in fact, I was responding to a question about how this report will come here and I said that it would finally come through the Auditor-General. That one I said. I think many clarifications were made yesterday through the substantive hon. Minister for Ministry of Finance and National Planning. What are we looking for?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Briefly stop the clock. Hon. Members, our Standing Orders specifically provide that we should not be repetitive in the manner that we ask questions. This issue of the Auditor-General is repetitive. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning delivered a ministerial statement and hon. Members were given an opportunity to ask questions. If hon. Members are not happy with the answers that have been provided, they should seek recourse somewhere else because the hon. Minister has already given a position. So, this idea of asking the same questions is not allowable by our Standing Orders. We can make progress.

The hon. Member for Shangombo may proceed.

Mr Mubika (Shangombo): Madam Speaker, I stand here a sad and disappointed hon. Member of Parliament for Shangombo in that segregation in recruitment to the Civil Service has continued in the system.

Madam Speaker, in the recent recruitment to the Zambia Correctional Service, Shangombo has scored zero in the Western Province ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubika: ... when we were promised that there would not be any segregation. What measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that even the people of Shangombo, Mitete and other districts which were omitted in the Western Province are also recruited?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Order!

The Vice-Presidentlaughed.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, they are enjoying looking at my face with my smile. I am smiling because I want to say thank you and good morning to the hon. Member.

There is talk of segregation, discrimination, tribalism and regionalism.

Hon. Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: If something has happened in one’s district, and I am giving a general response, one should not cry out and say anything which comes to their mind. We have heard people talk about tribalism and regionalism. People should just speak on what they think has happened.

Madam Speaker, the issue is that there is no segregation. This is confirmation. Some people are saying there is regionalism. So, which region is being favoured?

Mr Kambita: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am happy he has asked that question. It is an answer the issue that threatens to divide us. I am using this as an opportunity because he has cried foul. He has deliberately used the word ‘segregation’ so that he does not sound like the hon. Member for Chienge.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: However, he described the same situation, and I think hon. Members agree with me. There is no segregation. I am not even aware that there was an announcement. How many of us here know the number of people who have been picked for employment in the Zambia Correctional Service? Let us not speculate until the process is over. For the Hon. Member for Shangombo, that is more of speculation –

Mr Mushanga: Face the Chair.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Hon. Member for Bwacha, good morning.

Mr Mushanga: Morning ma’am.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I hope I am saying something here. We should not speculate. We should wait and see. This Government cannot completely leave out any area, unless nobody applied. Let us wait. The hon. Member can come back after the process is over and then we can see what could have happened.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members should also engage the people who are involved in the process. Nonetheless, we have said that what we are using is a decentralised means of recruitment of workers in the Public Service, and that includes the Zambia Correctional Service.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, my mum, Her Honour the Vice-President, last Friday requested you to allow her to go and consult over the question that was asked by the Leader of the Opposition, and I am happy she did. Today, the Leader of the Opposition followed it up and she said this man (pointing at Mr Mundubile) did not establish what law was broken. Here is the law: Part VII, Section 73 –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, I guided –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

This issue was tackledyesterday. We spent a lot of time on this matter and questions were asked. I guided even this morning. I said that if hon. Members are not happy with the answers that were provided, and I know people will never be happy, they have other ways of trying to get the truth from the issues. So, if you want, you can even go to court instead of repeating the same questions and answers. I think we are not making progress.

Hon. Member for Lunte, you are ruled out of order because I guided earlier.

nterruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Order!

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, greetings to Her Honour the Vice-President from the people of Roan.

Hon. PF Membersstood up and started leaving the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruption

Madam Speaker: Order!

Can you do it quietly. Next time, there will be no sitting allowance for people who walk out.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Taxpayers money will not be paid to people who walk out on work. So, for those people who are walking out, there is no sitting allowance for today. You can go and sit outside.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Please, Clerk, take note. There is no sitting allowance for today for everybody that has moved out.Can we make progress.

The hon. Member for Roan can continue.

Mr J. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, I was saying good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, the Zambian Constitution, in the Preamble, states that Zambia shall be called a Christian nation. As such, even the morals should resemble those of Christians. I am worried; in fact, I should say we are worried in that of late, the so-called papas are leading this country into moral decay. I have a newspaper here, the Sunday Times, which reads, “Man Blames Papas for Failed Marriage.”

Madam Speaker, there is a video trending about a papa entering into someone’s bedroom. Is the New Dawn Government not thinking of strengthening some of the rules for the registration of some of these churches so that these papas can be arrested before they start entering our bedrooms whilst we are here?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr J. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, this might sound very simple, but we have witnessed a lot of moral decay coming from the so-called papas. Even when they preach, people seriously say, “Dig deeper papa”.

Is Her Honour the Vice-President not thinking of strengthening the registration rules for some of these individuals that are coming in the guise of forming churches, yet they are coming to increase the moral decay in this country?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am very thankful for this very serious and, indeed, important question on the behaviour of certain papas.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: And mamas?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam, somebody is adding mamas, but the hon. Member talked of papas and not mamas. So, maybe, mamas are doing well.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member asked whether the Government was not thinking of strengthening registration rules so that it is able to stop some of this behaviour.

Madam Speaker, indeed, it is possible for the Government, and this House, to enact laws that will probably scrutinise more the people who want to register churches. That is possible, although I am not saying the Government has decided to do so. The Government has not sat to make a decision on that issue.

Madam Speaker, this is an issue of morality and issues of morality are issues of the heart. If I go to register a church or whatever organisation, my face will not show my intent. It is the document that I have that will show the intent and that is what the registrar will follow; and whether I have written according to applicable laws or regulations.

Madam Speaker, you cannot, therefore, say, “Because you look short or tall, we will not register your church.” At the end of the day, after registering properly, some people go to do wrong.

Madam Speaker, I think registration may not resolve the matter. What should resolve the matter is to see the culprit and bring them to book when they misbehave like that. Registration alone may not be helpful because people look good and speak well, but what they do is what becomes of issue.

Madam Speaker, let us be on the lookout associety. There is a problem in society because one cannot go to pray and end up in the bedroom. What kind of prayer is that? There is something wrong with the person who also agrees to do that because there is no such a prayer. Which Bible verse are they using to do such an activity? That is simplythe decay of the society of our time and it is very unfortunate. Whoever is found doing such an activity must be followed by the law that deals with such immorality.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Ba Vice-President,mwashibukenikufuminaku Lubansenshi.

Interruptions

Mr Chewe: Good morning, Her Honour the Vice-President, from the good people of Lubansenshi Constituency.

Madam Speaker, last year, the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government indicated that it was going to start running this economy twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. When are we implementing that ‘twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week’ operation so that we can be able to increase production and grow the gross domestic product (GDP)?

The Vice-President: Mulishanimukwai? Meaning,“How are you, Sir?” I also appreciate the greetings from the good people of Lubansenshi.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to respond. The hon. Member’s statement is that we promised to run the economy twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. Honestly, we are doing that. We are running this economytwenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. We have a lot of difficulties, indeed, with the level of the economic status that we found ourselves in and we are workingtwenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member will agree with me that there are certain sectors of the economy that work atparticular hours. For example, I am told that we have accidents on the roads caused by drivers who fall asleep when driving in the night. I think it is necessary that in the night, truck drivers park and rest to reduce on the tonnage on the road. This does not mean that the economy has gone to sleepbecause we have other sectors of the economy that are working at that moment. Weare working hard and the results will soon start showing. It is not easy to work in an environment where the general economy of the entire globe is under stress. However, I will repeat that we are blessed as a country that even under such stress, we are still at the level where we are, even recording somegrowth in the economy.  That was a promise and the hon. Member can assure the people of Lubansenshi that we will continue to work hard, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government embers: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo(Mitete): Madam Speaker, we have people in Mitete, Lukulu, Kabompo, Zambezi and Mangango.  The only issue which the Patriotic Front (PF) failed to do is no other than the construction of the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa/Mumbezhi Road.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, when the Minister of Finance and National Planning mentioned roads that will be worked on under the Public-Private Partnership (PPP), I noticed that the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa/Mumbezhi Road was not included. Your Honour the Vice-President, give hope to the people mentioned above as to when this road shall be raised to a bituminous standard.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mitete for that question. I appreciate that the hon. Member acknowledges that there are many other things happening in those areas except the issue of the road from Katunda, via Lukulu, upto Mumbezhi.

Madam Speaker, we continue to study and see what can be done there. Indeed, under the Public-Private Partnership (PPP), it has been found that this road cannot qualify because there is no much traffic there. The people who do projects under the PPP also, look at how long they will take to recoup the money. If the project is not viable, it will be difficult to attract investors. Therefore, this road joins the other roads that are waiting for funds from the Government, for them to be worked on, like the Kaputa/NsamaRoad. So, when funds are available, this road will be done. We are not ignoring it. It is a matter of the Government raising the needed resources for the country whose roads are in a terrible state, like the Katuta –

Hon. Member: Katunda!

The Vice-President: Katunda not Katuta. This includes the road from Katunda to Mumbezhi.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question. Your Honour the Vice-President, it was reported yesterday in the Daily Nation newspaper, that a contract has been awarded to a company called Agro-Fuel Investment Limited, to undertake rehabilitation of the Tanzania Zambia Mafuta(TAZAMA) pipeline from Tanzania, a stretch of 1,700 kilometres, all the way up to Ndola. Considering the competences of many other Zambian-owned companies, what is your motivation, as the Government, to award one company a contract of rehabilitating a stretch of 1,700 kilometres with no experience of pipeline rehabilitation given the urgent need to start utilising that infrastructure to transport the finished product?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Kamfinsa for that question. I am sure everybody is looking forward to hearing what happens to the Tanzania Zambia Mafuta(TAZAMA) pipeline. The hon. Member is saying that it was reported in the Daily Nation, that there is a contract to rehabilitate the 1,700 km, probably from Dar as Salaam, through to Ndola.

Madam Speaker, there is no such a contract to rehabilitate TAZAMA pipeline. From the little understanding I have, and the hon. Minister is here, is that the pipeline needs to be cleaned to unclog the system. So, the only thing that is there is for them to pour in the fuel to clean it up. It is not about maintaining or rehabilitating it, like the hon. Member has said, but to clean it up so that in the end, that pipeline can become active.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Her Honour the Vice-President, greetingsfrom the good people of Petauke.

Interruptions

Mr J.E. Banda: I need your protection,Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:Order!

Hon.Members,let us allow the hon. Member for Petauke Central to ask his question. Please, ask quickly because time is running out.I want to allow as many hon. Members as possible.

Mr J.E. Banda:Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your guidance. I am sure they are well guided that I represent the good people of Petauke and I need to ask a question on their behalf.

Madam Speaker, there are fifteen districts in the Eastern Province and only one district, Chipata, is a city and there is no municipal council. Is the New Dawn Government thinking of upgrading districts like Petauke, Katete and Lundazi to municipality so that, at least, the good people of the Eastern Province can have municipal councils because there is no municipal council in the whole province?

The Vice-President: Thank you, Madam Speaker, andthank you very much for the greetings from Petauke. I send greetings back.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member’s concern is that out of the fifteen districts, only Chipata has a city status, and there is no other district with a municipality status. He is asking if the Government is thinking of giving the status of municipality to some of the districts like Petauke. I think this question was asked some time back and, generally, I said that a status is not just granted from nowhere. There is a criterion. There are some things that have to be met. There are conditions that a place must meet to be able to acquire the status from a local council to municipality and then to city. So, I am sure the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development looks at all that as it upgrades certain places to the status of city. However, they must meet certain conditions to be called that. It is not just by name.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, I am fortunate enough to have lived to see most Governments that have ruled this country come and go, of course, apart from the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, that has just come in. I never saw a Government inherit such a broken economy like the UPND did. However, I am surprised that despite inheriting a broken economy, the UPND Government has managed to deliver exceptionally well. My question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: What formula have they used to perform so well in just one year of being in the Government?

Hon. UPND Government: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Sikongo who said he has seen all the Governments rule, and come and go, that means he was there before 1964 when Zambia was born, but that one thing he noted is that the United Party for National Development (UPND) or the New Dawn Government inherited a terribly broken economy. His question is what formula have we used for this economy to perform so well in the year we have been in the Government.

Madam Speaker, there are a number of things that we have done and, last time, I said that everything starts with leadership. Leadership is very important in achieving anything that you want. So, firstly, the Zambian people made the right choice of the President and his team. Indeed, the policies that are being put in place are very helpful. For example, during the procurement process, policies play a major role in improving the economy and this gives confidence to investors both local and international. Three points have guided our performance in procuring services and goods, which we were told and we are doing that. We insist and pray that everybody adapts. Every time we are procuring something, we think of cost effectiveness. Is the cost the right one? I think this was abused and costs were inflated in the economy; you cannot grow. So, this Government and its leader has continued saying that things must be properly priced, and that is one thing. We have also said that whatever you deliver must be of quality, in which ever field, in terms of services and goods. Quality and the time aspect are important. That is how we have been moving in one year.

Madam Speaker, we are also implementing other policies such as the Decentralisation Policy, which other Governments would allude to. We are taking resources to the people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the leader and those who surround him must also have a heart for the Zambian people. What I believe is that even those who surround the king must be the right people. If they are wicked, take them away. However, as a team, we are working hard to ensure that we get rid of corruption. Corruption is a cancer to the economy and we will get rid of it. We are thinking of the people, including providing free education. It gives people energy to work because there is a future for their children. Those in schools see a future.

Madam Speaker, we are also working on job creation, which is Pillar One of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), not jobs being created in the Government. More jobs will be created by the private sector; it is private sector driven. The Government is working on ensuring that the environment is good, and that is what has attracted what you are seeing in the economy. I can go on talking, but there are many other things that this Government has done which are giving a positive indicator, energising the Zambians and the investors, attracting people to invest in our economy and it will be well. Zambia will be a very good place. Watch the space.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, Her honour the Vice-President has just referred to Pillar I of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP). She is aware that we have close to 7 million young men and women looking for jobs. I have been advocating for the Government to consider the apprenticeshipprogramme which is supposed to give jobs to almost everybody in the sector, including parastatal companies.However, the Government has moved some money and has been spending it on empowerment programmes, which are all over, including in the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, and the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, yet we still do not have any results proving that these empowerment programmes have actually changed people’s lives. If anything, in the Auditor General’s Report, it has been all about non-payment andempowerment programmes not yielding results. When is the Government going to consider apprenticeship programmes across all sectors to support, not only the Government itself, but also parastatal companies that are failing to employ because, obviously, they are going through financial problems?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kantanshi for that very important question. Sometimes, we may say we are doing something, but it may not be up to the satisfaction we desire. For me, sometimes, when you are not satisfied, it is not a negative but positive thing because you are looking for something better. That is what I see.

Madam, the hon. Member of Parliament is looking for something better for the 7 million young people who are looking for jobs. It is not easy to see lives change. Indeed, there is need for us to have apprenticeship programmes. I think we have an element even in the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), but the resultswill not be seensoon because people will take a bit of to come out, be ready to take on jobs and be productive. We are doing that, but I do understand that if people are not ready, even if we give empowerment, they would not be able to produce results as you want them. However, we are onthat.Even under the Ministry of Youth Sport and Arts, we have that programme.

Madam, we are workingtogether with the private sector and are also encouraging them to giveapprenticeship opportunities to young people so that they are fully prepared to take jobs on,do them successfully, grow the economy and create jobs.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr M. Tembo (Sinda): Madam Speaker, peace be with Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, maternal deaths have risen in this countryespecially in the Eastern Province, particularly, in Sinda,Katete, and Petauke, What is the Government doing to reduce maternal deaths because we cannot continue losing our loved ones?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank the hon. Member for Sinda.  For some of us, many women in here, this is a passion. We do not want to continue seeing our women die when bringing life on earth. Maternal health is very important so that women do not die during childbirth.  In other places, when a woman falls pregnant, they even feel good. However, when one gets pregnant in Zambia,they are scared. In places like where  come from,when one delivers, they are greetedwith “mwapusukeni” because the environment is so bad. 

Madam Speaker, however, the Government is working on that and hon. Members have been told to prioritise maternal health. Even under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), we should prioritise maternal health by ensuring that every health facility must have a proper maternity wing with reticulated water. There should be decency in the maternity ward; it does not matter how small. Let us include a decent room where life can be brought on earth.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President:This is something we are doing. Colleagues, in this House, we should not take this lightly. It does not cost much to ensure that there is a decent maternity ward. It does not matter how small. It is then the duty of the Government through the Ministry of Health to provide personnel. We must prioritise midwifery in our recruitment so that the midwives can go and help. Maternal deaths must come to an end. We will do everything possible as the Government to ensure that our mothers enjoy being pregnant,deliver safely, and smile at the baby.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:We have run out of time, but with the indulgence of Her Honour the Vice-President, I will give one bonus question to the hon. Member for Serenje who has been sitting anxiously waiting to ask a question.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kandafula (Serenje): Madam Speaker, thank you for according an opportunity to the people of Serenje to ask a question to Her Honour the Vice-President. In the first place, and before I ask my question, let me confirm that the peopleof Serenje have said “Amen!” to her prayer and that nothing will happen in Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kandafula: Madam Speaker, my question is over the quality of fertiliser that we will be receiving in Zambia. I am made to understand that once the fertiliser comes, it needs to be tested to find out whether it is of the quality which we require in Zambia andsuitable for our soil.  What measures has the Government put in place to test the fertiliser to ascertain that it is of the required standard?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I had to get clarity on the issue. 

Madam, I thank the hon. Member for Serenje and the people of Serenje for agreeing to what I said. God will do what he hears from us. So, we are saying,“Zambia will be better”.

Madam Speaker, the concern is on the quality of fertiliser. Probably the hon.Member is implying that fertiliser is coming in so quick and immediately distributed. He is wondering when the testing on the fertiliser will be done.

Madam, as long as the Government is acquiring the fertiliser from outside, the testing is done before it is brought to Zambia. However, unlessthe Government buys fertiliser locally,it is tested because we do not know the source.

Madam, I was thinking we had a situation where the fertiliser coming from outside Zambia was not tested before distribution, but I am assured thatit is tested before the Government brings it in. So, we can be assured on that, and we trust that the fertiliser we will be good enough for the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

MONEY SPENT ON MEETING OF PRESIDENT WITH MAYORS, COUNCIL CHAIRPERSONS AND OTHER LOCAL GOVERNMENT LEADERS AT MICC IN AUGUST 2022

94. Mr Kafwaya (Lunte) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

1. how much money the Government spent on the meeting of the Republican President with Mayors, Council Chairpersons and other Local Government leaders held at Mulungushi International Conference Centre in August, 2022; and
2. what the benefits of the meeting were.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, just a minor correction, the meeting was held at the Kenneth Kaunda International Conference Centre and not Mulungushi International Conference Centre.

Madam, I inform the hon. Member and the House that the Government spent K562,209.07 for the conference facilities on the meeting that the Republic President held with their Worships the Mayors, Council Chairpersons and other Local Government leaders at the Kenneth Kaunda International Conference Centre on 16^th August, 2022.

Madam Speaker, the following were the benefits that accrued to both the Central Government as well as the local authorities from the meeting:

1. it should be noted that the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, is the first President, ever since Zambia became a Republic in 1963, to have shared a meeting of that nature with local authority officer bearers. He shared his vision for the country with regard to local authorities to ensure that council objectives were completely in line with the Government’s expectations;
2. the local authorities were also given an opportunity to make inquiries and provide proposals for solutions to the many challenges that local authorities face in their operations;
3. the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, with the local authorities, resolved on a plan of action for the effective delivery of municipality services, health and education as well as sanitation;
4. the meeting made a resolution to hold annual engagements to address the salient issues with regard to local authority performance for municipality service delivery; and
5. the meeting also opened a new relationship between the Government and local authorities in which the two were expected to play complementary roles.

Madam Speaker, I am very sure that the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte fully understands this answer that I have given him to the extent that I do not expect follow-up questions.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I will just ask one supplementary question although I am entitled to two.

Madam, it is good to observe that the hon. Minister spent K562,209.07 for conferencing facilities. Let me make a correction on his correction. The meeting was held in the Kenneth Kaunda Wing of the Mulungushi International Conference Centre.

Madam Speaker, all the people the hon. Minister called from all councils across the country came here using their own vehicles. They spent money on fuel, accommodation and meals and they were paid allowances. That is in addition to the conferencing facility cost. Does the hon. Minister think that bringing policy implementers, who have nothing to do with policy promulgation, to come and meet the highest level of policy promulgation, where he feeds in as Minister, is prudent management of public resources?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, in management, there is nothing better than connecting the dots. What used to happen before, as the hon. Member of Parliament is stating, is that policy pronouncements would be made at the highest level and they would just fizzle and wash away because the implementers were not there to do the work.

Madam, let me just emphasise to my brother and friend that allowances and the cost of transport or that meeting which was convened were borne by individual local authorities. It was such an important meeting. He should have seen how excited his Council Chairperson from Lunte was to rub shoulders with the President. There was commotion, chitintang’ombe, as he would call it …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … for people to have a one-on-one discussion with the Head of State, which has never happened before. So, they went with renewed invigoration and zeal to implement Government policy. It was at this meeting where the President indicated to all the Council Chairpersons and Mayors that regardless of the political party that sponsored them, they needed to work in complement with the Central Government. What is better than that?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I truly think that the President made a historic mark when he met the leaders at sub-district level and make sure that we walk together in meeting the aspirations and interests of the people who we serve.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: You used the word chitintang’ombe. What does it mean?

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I borrowed the word from Shiwang’andu, but, unfortunately, I translated it into Bemba instead of translating it back into English. It means commotion. Chitintang’ombeis commotion.

Mr Kafwaya crossed theFloor and sat next to Mr Nkombo.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister kindly clarify if these council officials used the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) money for logistics. If yes, did the CDF Committee approve?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, allow the hon. Minister to concentrate on the questions. Do not distract him.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the fairest thing for me to say in regard to this question is let me quickly check which Vote was used for the Mayors to travel and then I will come back duly and give the correct answer to the hon. Colleague.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubozha (Lufubu):Madam Speaker, I want to confess that this was a very fascinating, scintillating and exuberant meeting …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubozha: … that had providential benefits which accrued by bringing the people at grassroot level to the highest office in the land.How often are these meetings going to be conducted by his ministry?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, in my maiden answer to the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte about the benefits and the proceedings, I indicated, and I will quote what I said, that the meeting resolved to hold annual engagements, which means once a year, to address the salient issues with regard to local authority performance and challenges for service delivery. The short answer is that it is going to be like Christmas. Once a year, the President will meet all these people to make sure that the connection network between him, at the pinnacle of the office of the governance of this land, and the person at the lowermost is highly connected.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is aware that I was privileged to serve as president of the Local Government Association of Zambia for a period of five years. Every year, there was a structured meeting that we used to have where we would invite the highest office in the land, the office of the Republican President. I am aware that we had the President at that time grace some of the annual general meetings that we used to have.

Madam Speaker, how different are these meetings that are being structured from the already existing annual conferences where local authorities interact with the Government as has been the practice. That is why I would really appreciate what is so special about this meeting when there are already these meetings that, for many years, have been taking place. I am sure Hon. Masebo once graced some of these meetings.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the Local Government Association Annual General Meetingsare held, and, normally, when the President’s schedule permits, he attends as the Guest of Honour at those meetings. It has happened several timeswhere, the President comes and basically reads a speech as the Guest of Honour and he leaves.

Madam Speaker, the difference here is that this was a highly interactive session which took place from 08:00 hours to 17:00 hours. Councillors and mayors asked the Presidentquestions and he answered. Therein lies the difference. I think there is a total value addition to the Annual Local Government Association meetings where it is one-way traffic andthe President or the hon. Minister goes and readsa speech and there is no exchange. So, the difference here is that Mr Hichilema, the President of the Republic of Zambia, is the first one to have a highly interactive session for eight hours and he has done that not only with local authority drivers, but also with parastatal heads and Permanent Secretaries (PSs) to connect the dots that I was talking about.

Madam Speaker, the only dot that is missing so far is for the President to have an interactive session with hon. Members of this legislative House and that is because they refused. When the President, through your office, made an indication that he wanted to meet hon. Members of Parliament, it was agreed. He wanted to come here so that we could have an interactive session the way we had an interactive session before with the former United Nations Secretary General, Ban Ki-moon. He sat where you are seating, there, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, President Hichilema made an indication that he should have a closed door meeting with hon. Members of Parliament, but they insisted that they wanted to have the meeting elsewhere and not in Parliament, and the meeting failed.

Hon. Mung’andu: It was the other way round.

Mr Nkombo: Was it the other way round? Well, yes. Thank you for the correction. The President invited hon. Members to go to the Government Complex to have an interactive session with him. He wanted to interact with all hon. Members who were elected by the people of Zambia. However, they insisted that they wanted to be here because it is here where they claim they enjoy immunity. What is there to worry about immunity if you mean well? I, as the person who was responsible to arrange this meeting became suspicious that they wanted to abuse the President using the immunity that exists in this Chamber.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the idea of a meeting with the President collapsed. I will not just end there. He is desirous of meeting them collectively or even individually and not just at traditional ceremonies where there is also a chitintangombe normally when he is there to go and shake his hand. He wants to interact with hon. Members anywhere. So, please, just agree to this meeting. It will be at no cost so that we can complete the dots that I am talking about. The President is desirous of meeting hon. Members and agreeing on the national agenda irrespective of our diverse persuasions politically.

Madam Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I rise on this point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65 which talks about the relevance of what we talk about here.

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Member of Parliament for Lufubu was asking his question to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, he used very hard words which were difficult to understand. I have been checking for those words in the dictionary, but have not found themup to now. They do not exist in the dictionary.

Madam Speaker, was the hon. Member, therefore, in order to use those hard words knowing that the minimum qualification for these hon. Members here is Grade 12.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

There is a little thing called Google. So, those hon. Members who did not get the words can Google and find the meaning.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Otherwise, ask our able research department to help in the understanding of those words.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for this opportunity. I rise on a point of procedure pursuant to Article 76 of the Constitution and Section 3 of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act.

Madam Speaker, may I start by informing the House that pursuant to Standing Order No. 202, we will be writing to Madam Speaker for what hon. Members feel is an infringement on their rights.

Madam Speaker, I am compelled to rise because, as hon. Members on your left, we missed an opportunity to interact with Her hon. the Vice-President, during a session that is very important.

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile:Madam Speaker, the right to walk out is provided for under parliamentary procedure in this Parliament and the entire Commonwealth. 

Madam Speaker, as your hon. Members of Parliament, we come here because we are representatives of the people. We were voted for by the people that we represent and we ask questions to clarify on –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker:What we can do, Leader of the Opposition, is this: Please, come to the point, cite the breach and then raise it quickly so that we make progress. 

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, as hon. Members of Parliament we are aggrieved, especially where an impression is given that as we sit here, we sit here merely to earn an allowance of K2,000 and that our conduct must controlled for that K2,000.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, I would like to put it on record that that is an insult to hon. Member of Parliament who are elected by the people.

Madam Speaker: Order! Leader of the Opposition, Order!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: If there is any issue that you want to raise, you have said that you are going to write. So, please, put it in writing and it will be responded to. This is not the time to stand up and start debating issues that you are not happy with. You walked out on your own to disrupt the proceedings, should we have –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker:You walked out on your own. So, you write –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker:Order!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker:You put it in writing and it will be responded to adequately. That is why we have our Standing Orders. Let us behave like hon. Members.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker:Order!

Dr Mwanza: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you so much, once again.

Madam Speaker, the meeting made a lot of good resolutions. Has there been any monitoring on the performance of these councils based on the meeting resolutions? If there have been any, which performance or challenge was resolved and is since performing better.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague and friend, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kaumbwe for that question.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is asking whether or not, at this juncture, we have already started seeing the benefits that are accrued to that meeting. The answer is: Yes, because the participants of that meeting went back home extremely motivated and with an increased zeal to do work and supervise. The primary role of the Council Chairman or the Mayor is to ensure that the resolutions of the councils are implemented. So, there is a much more closer –

Madam Speaker, one of the things His Excellency the President inculcated to the participants of that meeting was the idea of watering down the political divide. To make sure that whether you are a mayor for the Opposition or the Ruling Party and you have a mixed member representation, you must work a one unity. This is something that had completed divided our people in the past. So, we will give updates and the hon. Member will see for himself starting with Petauke Council, where he comes from, Kaumbwe in particular. The hon. Member will be able to tell and give us a feedback whether there is an improvement as a result of that meeting or not.

 

Madam Speaker, maybe, I should take advantage of this question to state that yesterday, one of the hon. Members indicated that there is urgent need for hon. Members of Parliament to get back to the council. This exclusion of the hon. Member of Parliament from sitting in the council was arrived at via a Constitutional Amendment. This House is charged with the responsibility of formulating law. So, if he wants to see whether these interactions with His Excellency the President are bearing fruits, he should bring the amendment quickly to this House so that he can go back and sit in the council and he will be an integral part of the operations of the councils. That way, it will be easy for you to actually see where there are dislocations in the operations of the council, if there are any.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:  Order!

The last question will from the hon. Member for Mbabala.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for allowing me on behalf of the good people of Mbabala, to raise a follow-up question to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Madam Speaker, the wonderful and excellent meeting that we had with His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema added a lot of value, buying into the vision of the New Dawn Government and the delivery of various services. I am wondering, on the aspect of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), as to whether that meeting and indeed, his ministry is considering forming a CDF Department in the local councils in order to have key performance indicators for the Town Clerks to be part of their evaluation in terms their performance?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the interaction of the President with his mayors and Council Chairpersons brought in a very important matter which is an impediment to progress,both in central and local Government. His Excellency the President had been preaching about bureaucracies that are associated with movement of processes.

Madam Speaker, let me inform the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbabala that the performance indicators of all our officers as they interact with their duty sometimes, has been hampered by bureaucracies especially, in procurement. In the past, Madam Speaker, processes would be delayed for as long as half a year and in certain cases,a year because of the bureaucracies that are associated with processes. Therefore, they have a bearing on the performance indicators.

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President indicated to his people that as much as possible, where the laws that we function under and where the regulations that we set for ourselves become an impediment to the service deliveries, we must cut down the bureaucracies. That is one of the great benefits that I personally, as minister sitting and listening to His Excellency the President got out of it. He said that the laws as we set for ourselves, the rules and regulations especially with procurement which is a major driver or processes must be streamlined.

So, yes, once we do that –

Madam Speaker, some of these things are subject of legislation. Again, it is us here seated, who are responsible for legislating and make sure that we remove these bottlenecks and hurdles. One example that I give is that we fail to decentralise the approvals of the CDF because the Act dictates as a matter of fact that his hon. Minister speaking should the one approving CDF projects. This makes apyramidicalway of doing things. We are bringing legislation to devolve the power of approval to the province. Once that is done, I am sure that people will be laughing and smiling. Everyone is going to be happy because time is of essence. One of the three attributes that this Government is anchored upon is that of timely delivery of services, quality delivery and also, cost effectively.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

_______

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE PENSION SCHEME REGULATION (Amendment), 2022

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Pension Scheme Regulation (Amendment), Bill, No. 30 of 2022. The object of this Bill is to amend the Pension Scheme Regulation Act so as to provide for the approval of pension scheme rules by the Pensions and Insurance Authority.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Delegated Legislation. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House on Wednesday, 7^th December, 2022. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

_______

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

 Chair]

(Consideration resumed)

VOTE 29 – (Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development – K6,449,760,989).

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Sir,I was not winding up, I had just began responding to hon. Colleagues.

Mr Chairperson, I took note of the hon. Member for Kanchibiya’s concern about the uniform allocation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) in constituencies regardless of the jurisdiction or development stage and the dichotomy between rural and urban municipalities. We tried to allocate resources depending on the development stage of each constituency before and the argument then was that even if Lusaka, for instance, is a concrete jungle and looks developed, there is still squalor in this place, and the people who live in squalor are citizens of this country.

Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Member for Kanchibiya went to Garden Compound, which is near Manda Hill, and checked the quality of life of the people there and compared it with that of the people in Kanchibiya where he comes from, he would find that the people in Kanchibiya, as a matter of fact, live in better conditions than the people in Garden Compound. So, we have tried this before during the days of the late Hon. Request Muntanga, may his soul rest in peace. We tried to juggle the figures around so that developed constituencies could get slightly less than those that are developed. It is something we can try again but I doubt it will yield any results.

Mr Chairperson, I heard my sister-in-law, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue, give feedback on the suspension of Kafue Town Council and this hand signed the suspension order. I want to inform her that regardless of the feedback that comes, discipline is a cornerstone of sanity in a place. Kafue Town Council had to be put on ice. It is a predominately United Party for National Development (UPND) run council and we have to lead by example.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: If we spared disciplining Kafue Town Council for its current misconduct, then we were going to make a malignant affair where a council would misbehave and simply say no to discipline. We would be caught in a bad situation because of not having acted on Kafue Town Council and we would look as though we are discriminating against Chinsali Council, for example, if we disciplined Chinsali Council.

Mr Chairperson, let me take advantage of this comment and say that seated here as a nice person who most of you said has an open-door policy and responds to all of your requirements in my office, I feel indiscipline is something that has no space in my life. So, all councils should take heed. Kafue Town Council management has, maybe, an extra sixty-five days to come back to work. Unfortunately, this affects the citizens of Kafue, but it is also important that mob psychology does not drive us. You remove politics from the wards and bring it to the council,aikona. We are not going to do that. Aikona means no.

Mr Chairperson, the consolation for the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue is that time is a healer. I know that the people at the council must be upset with me, but it does not matter to me whether they are upset or not. I am saying this with the strongest conviction that this action had to be done. It has circumvented many more dislocations at the council based on patronage, where one wants to only have his/her way and not accommodate what other people think. By the way, it also stems from indiscriminate sharing of land. So, let me take this opportunity to tell all councils to follow the procedures of parcelling out land. If you are going to parcel out land indiscriminately for pecuniary benefit, we are going to come for you and we are going to come for you heavily like a tonne of bricks.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I thank Mr Banda from Muchinga for shining the light on me and for the kind words that he said.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the road development plan, I have said before on the Floor of this House that the UPND Government is new and it is developing its own ten-year road sector development plan, and I am quite certain that it will come around as it gets along.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the issue of transport for chiefs that the hon. Member, my colleague and friend, raised, I was among those who transported the chief.Him and I transported his chief from Serenje to Livingstone so I feel what he feels as well. We are proposing that our royal highnesses are served with transport. Just like we did on monitoring and evaluation, it is up to this House to agree that chiefs must operate under decent conditions. If it agrees, we can buy them 4 x 4 Toyota Hilux vehicles or something of that sort from the CDF.

Mr Chairperson, in the CDF, there is also a component for repairing their palaces. We are pointing a vote to make sure that the chiefs live in decent conditions. The trouble that we have with palaces is that they are not on institutional land. So, we are encouraging chiefs to find institutional plots, meaning a plot that is found should be an institutional one so that when a chief answers God’s call or passes on, the next chief will live in that house. This should be done so that we do not start building palaces here, there and everywhere at the time when we install other chiefs.

On the issue of bus stops, Hon. Nyirenda, please, look at me. I hear you on the bus stop in Lundazi. Please, come to my office so we can talk about this. Our co-operating partner, KFW Development Bank, built the bus stop that you referred to in Choma. There is also a state-of-the-art bus stop in Mazabuka, the constituency I represent, and the Germans created it for us. Come to the office, let us talk about it and see if they can help to sanitise the bus stop conditions in Lundazi.

Mr Chairperson, I think Hon. Siachisumo is the one who spoke about chiefs’ palaces and I have answered him. The issue about the Mukutuma/Lumpuma Road is something that him and I have been talking about for the longest time. Please, allow us to sanitise the difficulties or challenges that we found in the rural road sector. Once we do that – the comfort, as I finish, is that the World Bank is helping us …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’stime expired.

Mr Nkombo: … with rural roads. It is putting in K200 million which we will soon apply to answer those questions.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

VOTE 29/5524 – (Human Settlements and Planning Regulations – K9,660,943).

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5524 – Human Settlements Planning and Regulations – K9,660,943. The hon. Minister is just from responding to Hon. Sunday Chanda that there are challenges of unplanned settlements across the country. What is this amount going to achieve, given the cost of upgrading an unplanned settlement? For example, Mulenga Compound will not need K9 million; it will need more. So, should we not allocate more resources to this Vote rather than the K9,660,943?

VOTE 29/5526 – (Municipal Infrastructure and Support Delivery – K13,862,688).

Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5526, Sub-Programme 6001 – Service Improvement and Equipment Acquisition – K13,862,688. What equipment does the ministry intend to procure to support infrastructure and service delivery?

VOTE 29/5536 – (Rural Development – K70,254,064).

Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5536, Sub-Programme 33 – Rural Roads Connectivity – Nil. Does the ministry have plans to get the Rural Roads Unit from the Zambia National Service (ZNS) considering that it is now responsible for rural development?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, before the Business was suspended, I was asked the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development three questions and I think he picked the first one on the K9,660,943 for upgrading over unplanned settlements and why the amount is not adequate. I also asked a question arising from page 325, which I believe he picked, on the K13,862,688 for service improvement and equipment. I wanted clarification as to what equipment will be procured.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I asked the hon. Minister a question arising from page 329,Programme 5536 – Rural Development.There is a vote there under the Rural Roads Connectivity and under the 2023 Budget, there is no allocation.So, my question under this programme was why we cannot get the Rural Roads Unit, which is currently under ZambiaNational Service, and place it under the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development so that a vote is provided for and they are able to do rural development activities.

Mr Chairperson, those were my three questions.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, regarding the issue of the budgetary allocation of the K9,660,943, please, take note that this is for planning and regulation purposes only, and not for the actual resettlement. It is very clear that this money is too little to actualise the resettlement in repositioning of big squatter compounds such as Mulenga Compound which he made reference to.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to his second question on which equipment the ministry intends to procure, it is something that is topical because we need to streamline and improve the service deliveries for all municipal councils in equipment and infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, you will observe, as a matter of fact, that there is a slight improvement on this, in terms of absolute figures.It is in our continued attempt to ensure that we have equipment that will improve local communities’ service delivery.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the last question that the hon. Member asked about the rural road connectivity, I need you to know that, here, there is no budgetary allocation because as the Government, we have decided to capacitate the Zambia National Service(ZNS) who we believe are a quasi-Government organisation. We think that if it is capacitated with the equipment, we may just answer to the issue of the high cost of the development of this sector. It is something we are certain will work because we can talk to ZNS and ameliorate the charges that are exorbitant at this point in time.

Mr Chairperson, you will observe that, today, we have challenges in paying many interim payment certificates (IPC’s) because it is a complicated affair in the sense that rural roads are normally perennial.After one rainy season, they get washed away. So, we are in argument where some people will come and claim to say they built a road but it is washed away and they are claiming money. However, the truth of the matter is that behind that we know there was some sort of fraud that was going on between contractors as well as directors of engineering of works in the councils to issue IPCs that I am burdened with. The amount is now standing at about K5.7 billion against the budgetary allocation of only K1.2 billion over the past three years. So, we decided that the assignment would be given to the ZNS.That is why there is no money that is allocated under the programme.

 I thank you.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Chairperson, Programme 4003 – Urban and Regional Planning. There is no budget allocation. I want to find out if at all we have actually stopped planning activities in various cities.

Mr Chairperson, on Programme 6003 – Urban and Regional Planning, I have seen an allocation of K99,960. Is the amount enough? Another question is on Rural Planning Policy Coordination and Information. The budget there has reduced from K8,642,000to K3,225,600. What could be the reason considering that the hon. Minister is trying to modernise our rural communities through decentralisation.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I think all three questions sit on the aspect of cutting your coat to suit your clothand prioritising what we think we can work with for the available resources. The reductions that you see here are answering to the provision of the money that the ministry have received under this budget. We cannot allocatemoney that is not there. So, the answer is really cutting your coat to suit your cloth and priority.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Dr Mwanza(Kaumbwe): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5536 – Rural Development – Programme Total – K70,254,064. When I entered the Chamber, the hon. Minister was answering a question concerning community roads. However, I noticed that there is no budget allocation for the road pavement itself. There is an allocation for the water crossing points.

Mr Chairperson, in his response, the hon. Minister said that the Governmentis going to capacitate the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to construct the roads. Is capacitating the ZNS to rehabilitate the community roads already budgeted for in the 2023 Budget?

Mr Chairperson, the target for the number of crossing points to be constructed in 2022 was 100. Sixty have been constructed and there is a target of forty to be constructed in 2023. Is it that the forty crossing points to be constructed in 2023 are a carryover from the deficit in 2022? In short, there is no allocation for 2023 in terms of the number of crossing points.

Sir, on page 333, there is Management and Support Services –

Mr Nkombo: Which programme is that?

Dr Mwanza: The programme is Management and Support Services.

Mr Nkombo: Programme 5599?

Dr Mwanza: You are right.

Mr Chairperson, under this programme, the ministry is targeting to audit only fifty-eight local authorities in 2023. Now, looking at the increased scope of work that local authorities are handling due to the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF), why target fifty-eight instead of auditing all the 116 local authorities in order to increase transparency and accountability? There is also page 327 –

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, it is advisable that you ask only one question or else we will consume all the time just on you. So, the hon. Minister can respond to the earlier question. Hon. Member, you can take your seat.

Mr Mubika: Speak Chinese.

Dr Mwanza: I can even ask in Chinese, right?

Mr Nkombo: Nǐhǎo means hello, hon. Member.

Mr Chairperson, the target of auditing only fifty-eight out of 116 local authorities has been a general practice. Yes, indeed, I agree with the hon. Member that the scope of work vis-à-visthe expanded Constituency Development Fund (CDF) provides more work for local authorities. I need the hon. Member to know that there are internal audits that happen in all the councils. So, we will take a sample of fifty-eight, which is much more than the 10 per cent for determining trends. Again, it is the function of the availability of money. If we had all the money, I am sure we would then go and audit all the 116 local authorities.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the crossing points, sixty out of 100 is what was budgeted for. The hon. Member is asking if the forty are a carryover. I would say yes. This would also be an indictment on many of us seated here in Parliament because as early as January, this year, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning indicated to me that those hon. Members who were threatened with being cut-off should bring the Bill of Quantities (BoQs) and we would service them. We have serviced those who have brought and those that have not brought, we have not. Therefore, it would only be fair that the information protocol is sharpened between our offices and the office of those who represent people on the ground.

Sir, I also need the hon. Member to know that under CDF, there is a component for disaster, which sits at 5 per cent for crossing points. This is money which can be used when needed.

Mr Chairperson, on the first question, I am actually glad that the hon. Member provided the answer for yourself, based on the answer that I gave the person who asked before him about capacitating the Zambia National Service (ZNS). All this is culminating again from the complication that has been presented to this Government on the rural roads connectivity and what we believe strongly was extremely fraudulent.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairpersongave to the Floor to Mr Chewe.

Mr Chewewas not in the Assembly Chamber.

The Deputy Chairpersongave the Floor toMr Mukosa.

Mr Mukosawas not in the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked passionately about the dichotomy between the rural and urban constituencies. May I have clarification on page 316, Programme 5536, Rural Development – K70,254,064. I see a reduction of K50 million. What is the justification?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, when the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, which chiefly addressed the issues in the rural areas, was re-profiled, money was lumped onto this particular Vote last year. Now that we have settled, the Department of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, which is in the rural areas, is sitting on its own, this particular Vote has gone to deal exclusively with the issue of traditional leadership in rural areas and this is why there is this reduction.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kandafula (Serenje): Mr Chairperson, let me, in the first place, say congratulations and thank you to the hon. Minister. I seek clarification on page 321, Programme 5525, Table 4, Economic Classification, Sub-Programme 03, Sub-Sub-Programme 58 – LASF – K300,000,000. I just want a confirmation whether this K300 million which has been allocated for 2023 has been tied to the recent audit which was done under the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF). This is because our people have not been paid for quite some time.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, let me thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Serenje for picking up this provision, which was missing for many years in the past. We have said here before and will say it again that the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) had been abandoned by the previous managers, to a point where it was almost on its knees. This amount of money allocated there is as a result of the realisation of the fact that this is a viable institution that should not be left to die. So, it is the wish of this Government to normalise things, hence the allocation of this money.

Sir, I must also confirm to you that the K300 million is not even enough to address the current problems that LASF has, but a journey of 1,000 miles starts with one step. This is what the New Dawn Government has done to try and give hope to this very vital institution.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Chairperson, on page 319, Programme 5524 – Sub Programme 4003 – Infrastructure Development – K73,200. Considering that the President emphasised on human settlements and planning regulations particularly to do with schemes and farming blocks,what is this money meant for? I know that for the previous year, it is showing K39,290. We have improved to K73,200, which I believe might not even be enough for fuel if we want to establish human settlement planning and regulations in Sesheke.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member and friend, Hon. Mung’andu. He may note that last year, there was nothing allocated there and, the previous year, 2021, the year of the Lord when Governments changed, we allocated only K39,290.  Now, we have put K73,200. This is not for resettling people. Probably, the hon. Member was not in the House when the hon.Colleague from Kamfinsa asked on the same Vote and item.

Sir, what I indicated was that this was for planning and regulation purposes. Planning does not require fuel. He put it that is not even enough for fuel to go to Sesheke and back. Again, it sits right at the heart of cutting the suit to the size of the cloth. This is the only money that is available for us to conduct this exercise. So, please, give us a pat on the back because last year there was nothing and now, we have put K73,200. We will improve, going into the future, because the issue of unplanned human settlements is one of the reasons we have squalor among ourselves.

Sir, we have asked all our councils to prepare Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) which are prepared via drone and the table like where the hon. Member sitting. So, we are quite confident that with this allocation of money, we will get some headway towards improving the actualisation of these unplanned settlements.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 12 – (Office of the Public Protector– K29,860,739).

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for granting me the opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the Estimates of Expenditure for 2023 under Vote 12 – The Office of the Public Protector.

Mandate

Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Public Protector is established by Article 243 of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No.2 of 2016 and operationalised by the Public Protector Act No.15 of 2016. The office draws its mandate from Article 244 of the Constitution which is to:

1. investigate an action or decision taken or omitted to be taken by a state institution in the performance of an administrative function;
2. bring an action before a court;
3. hear an appeal by a person relating to an action or decision taken or omitted to be taken in respect of that person;
4. make a decision on an action to be taken against a public officer or constitution office holder, which decision shall be implemented by an appropriate authority.

Mr Chairperson, to prevent and redress maladministration, the Office of the Public Protector executes its mandate using an integrated approach involving investigation, capacity building, consultation, co-operation as well as exchange of information with appropriate bodies involved in the promotion of administrative justice.

Vision and Mission Statement

Mr Chairperson, the vision of the Office of the Public Protector states, “A Public Service free of maladministration.” The mission statement states, “To ensure a conducive governance environment.”

Mr Chairperson, in the execution of its mandate, the Office of the Public Protector is guided by values and principles enshrined in the Constitution and the Public Protector Act which are transparency, accountability, professionalism, integrity, impartiality, accessibility and independence.

Review of the 2022 Budget Performance

Mr Chairperson, in the year 2022, the Office was allocated a total budget of K19,307,550 for both personal emoluments and recurrent departmental charges. The allocation enabled the Office to achieve the following:

1. Maladministration redress services

1. investigated 1,512 general maladministration cases out of which 773 were concluded;
2. initiated nine own initiative investigation cases out which five were concluded;
3. investigated seven systematic cases of mal-administration involving state institutions, out of which three were concluded and are at the report stage;
4. undertook one capacity building for investigation staff in electronic case management to enhance efficiency in handling cases; and
5. carried out awareness campaigns and legal clinics in five provinces.

 

1. Management and support services

1. purchased five motor vehicles to help ease transport challenges for the OfficeofthePublic Protector;
2. purchased furniture and working tools for officers. The office also carried out renovations and maintenance of offices;
3. provided inputs into the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) as well as the draft implementation plan;
4. embarked on the development of the 2022/2026 institutional strategic plan which will guide the institutions’ programming of activities for the next five years; and
5. carried out induction meetings for new members of staff to familiarise them with the operations of the office of the Public Protector and the Public Service.

2023 Budget Estimates

Mr Chairperson, in the year 2023, the Office of the Public Protector has been allocated a total of K29,860,739. The budget allocation represents a 55 per cent increase as compared to the 2022 Budget estimates for the institution.

Mr Chairperson, the functions of the Office of the Public Protector are performed under two key programmes namely; mal-administration redress services and management and support services.

Maladministration Redress Services

The Maladministration Services comprise three distinct sub-programmes which play a critical role in enhancing the performance of the public service. This are as follows:

1. maladministration investigations:
2. maladministration awareness: and
3. maladministration legal advisory.

Management and Support Services

Management and Support Services comprise six sub-programmes that are undertaken in order to enhance the effective management of staff, provision of logistical and material support services, in order to facilitate the smooth operations of the institutions and these are as follows:

1. Executive Office Management;
2. Human Resource Management and Administration;
3. Financial Management Accounting;
4. Financial Management Auditing;
5. Procurement Management;and
6. Planning Policy Coordination and Information Management.

Mr Chairperson, through this budget and in line with the Government’s decentralisation drive enshrined in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), the Office of the Public Protector in 2023, plans to progressively decentralise its operations to six provinces.

Mr Chairperson, with this Budget, the Office of the Public Protector plans to invest more resources in improving the institutions’ information and communication technology (ICT) infrastructure to enable hosting of the electronic case management, effectively. Furthermore, in order to ease the transport challenge for the institution, the office plans to procure ten more vehicles. These measures will enhance the institutions visibility and mechanisms for conducting investigations which in turn, contributes to quality public service delivery

Mr Chairperson, the Budget estimates before this august House will enable the Office of the Public Protector to operate effectively as well as address personal emoluments and other outstanding bills. In this regard, I wish to appeal to the hon. Members to support the estimates of expenditure for the Office of the Public Protector as presented.

I thank you, Sir

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Mr Chairperson, thank you so much for giving me this very important moment to talk about what really affects the people of Chienge.

Mr Chairperson, let me try to take the House back to the Twelfth Session of the National Assembly, where I complained about this office, the Office of the Public Protector. This is an office which is supposed to be there for the Zambians. It is an Ombudsman.  During the previous sitting, I am one of those who did not support the Budget line for this office because most of the people who are affected are those in Chienge and other rural areas. When we say that this office is there to protect the Zambians, I wonder. If such a public office does not deliver services, Zambians are supposed to complain and the issue should be looked into. There was the time in Chienge, when people were mistreated by the police. Her Honour the Vice-President knows what I am talking about. During that time, people had nowhere to run to. Where was the Office of the Public Protector?

Mr Chairperson, we are currently talking about the functions of this office but what happens if the officer in this public institution is rude? Look at how most police officers treat Zambians. Even now, we have a way because the law is clear. When the police are arresting someone who is not even resisting to be arrested, they should not mistreat that person. Look at how the Zambians are treated. Instead of the police officers doing the investigations and sensitising the Zambians, they are the ones mistreating the people. For example, I watched a video of a young man calling the name of a police officer asking him what wrong he had done.

Mr Chairperson, this office has not enough in reaching out to the people of Chienge and other rural areas. As for me, I wonder why year in, year out, we are even giving them money. What is the money for? I checked on their Website and I noticed that they had gone for some sensitisation.  Whom did they go to sensitise? They only call people who are elite and can understand them to meet in a hall when the people who were really affected are in the rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, we want to see this kind of sensitisation in Chienge. They should not call people to meet at Mulungushi Conference Centre. Do they expect my chief, or headman, or any person from Chienge to come and listen to that sensitisation? Why are they not using community radio stations in rural areas to tell people about human rights? Are we going to be giving money to institutions just because they are in Government? This is tax payer’s money. The people of Chienge pay taxes through levies that they pay to council. They need the service to be delivered to them. Who is going to protect them?

Mr Chairperson, if we were to talk about carelessness, it is here where we have been talking about Airtel Zambia. Due to the inaccuracies of Airtel Zambia, the people of Zambia are being duped. I have not heard a word from the Office of the Public Prosecutor. Do they expect someone to go and tell them? What is the use of having the Ombudsman in this country? I was privileged to live in South Africa for twenty years. An Ombudsman is the most feared office there.

Mr Chairperson, in Zambia, we have the Credit Reference Bureau (CRB). I tried to get a loan but my name is appearing at the CRB. Who took my name there? Those are the inaccuracies we are talking about, that are under the Office of the Public Protector. There are so many people who have been black listed for no apparent reason. Where is the Pubic Protector? Where are their offices? I do not even hear anything about them on the radio.

Mr Chairperson, I am having challenges in supporting such Budget lines. It is not personal. It is just important that when we allocate money to an office that is working. We had an issue of thirty-six policemen who were fired. Where was the Office of the Public Protector then? This is about unfair dismissals. I am really finding it difficult to understand. We had that challenge in the previous regimes. I am therefore, expecting something different from the current Government. We cannot continue with this. This should not take this in a laissez-fairemanner.No! We need to see the Ombudsman on the toes. In Kenya, the Ombudsman which is the Office of the Public Protector is working and is heard. Here, people are being drugged here and there, arrested and the Ombudsmen is quite. Do they have to wait for somebody to go and wake the Office of the Public Protector up? No! We have to get serious.

Mr Chairperson, most of the Zambians do not even know their rights. They do not even know who to talk to apart from their hon. Members of Parliament. When we go to our constituencies, some people would say, “umfwenikunoofyobaletucita.”

Mr Chairperson, in as far as the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), the Government has failed to deliver. This is the job of the Office of the Public Protector. People are complaining all over the country. The rights of the farmers in Chienge have been infringed upon. There is no medicine in hospitals. When one goes to the hospital, he or she will be given a prescription. In public institutions, you will not find a person who is supposed to deliver a service to you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Rev. Katuta: Those are things that we are talking about according to the mandate that they have been given. Now, I hear they are going to decentralise to six provinces. It would have been prudent if we knew which provinces they are talking about. This is what we have been talking about. We talked about it even in the previous session. Can we have such offices at district level? In Chienge, human rights are abused. It is not like I am just talking from without. Look at the fares. For somebody to travel from Lupiya to Kashikishi, they need to pay K300. That is not fair.

The people of Chienge are very clever and intelligent, and if they were aware of this office, they would have phoned it and told it how they are living. It is not the duty of the hon. Member of Parliament to tell them that there is the Office of the Public Protector when the office itself is supposed to do that.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, even here, when we ask questions, we expect proper Government assurances but we are told stories. It means thata public officer has failed to deliver. So, the Office of the Public Protector needs to get serious.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, until the people of Chiengeget the service – the Office of the Public Protector itself has failed to deliver, so why should we give it money?

Mr Chairperson, I do not support this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate onVote 12 – Office of the Public Protector, an office that has not been publicised and decentralised.

Mr Chairperson,this office is a non-judicial mechanism to control administrative actions. The Constitution of the land established institutions of governance and prescribed their duties and gave them legal powers to operate, including how they should relate with the citizens of this country. This office is established by the Constitution under Article 43 (1). However, as I indicated, this office has not been publicised and decentralised.

Mr Chairperson,from the outset, I want to indicate that I support this budget. So, I will debate in that line to make sure that the people in Wusakile and Zambia at large, know about this office.They do not know about this office because it is not decentralised.

Mr Chairperson, Article 243 (2) of the Constitution talks about the qualifications of a person who is appointed Public Protector., and it says that a person qualifies as Public Protector if that person is qualified to be appointed as a judge, and does not hold any State office or constitutional office.

Mr Chairperson, in the policy statement, Her Honour the Vice-President indicated that the Government intends to decentralise this office to six provinces. That is what even Article 243 (3) talks about and it says that this office shall be decentralised to the provinces and progressively to districts. However, I am a bit concerned regarding theGovernment’s intention to decentralise as stated in the policy statement because when I looked in the Yellow Book,there is no allocation for decentralisation.

Mr Chairperson, this office is the only office that can investigate a sitting President. It is not subject to directives by any officer or any institution, and it is very powerful. However, it has limitations,for instance, it cannot investigate a matter that is before a court, a court martial or a quasi-judicial body, a matter that is criminal in nature or relates to the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, and a matter that involves dealings between the Government and a foreign government or an international organisation. Those are some of the limitations of this office, and it cannot not also investigate an officer from the Parliamentary Service and Judicial Service, meaning that this office observes the separation of powers.

Mr Chairperson, in the Yellow Book, I have seen that the New Dawn Government intends to undertake ten educational programmes and fifteen sensitisation programmes. However, this is not enough because the major setback for this office is publicity. So, this office needs more money so it can carry out more awareness and community sensitisation programmes.I have also seen in the Yellow Book that the office intends to investigate 100 per cent reported cases and 40 per cent self-initiated cases. However, the office should have aimed at investigating 100 per cent self-initiated cases, and not the targeted 40 per cent. So, it needs more resources so it can undertake this.

Mr Chairperson, Article 244 of the Constitution provides the functions of the Public Protector. It provides that the Public Protector may investigate an action or decisiontaken or omitted to be taken by any public institution. This office investigates maladministration arising from unfairness, unreasonableness, illegality and those that do not comply with the rules of natural justice. An example of such cases is the current talk about the military audit that is ongoing. If it is found that procedures were not followed, or the officers responsible did not operate according to the law, issues of illegality, procedural impropriety, and mala fide arise. So, this office needs to be funded properly. This office also investigatesconstitutional office holders,whose responsibility is to preside over others, but do not preside properly, and issues of procedural impropriety may arise against such officers through this office.

Mr Chairperson, we need to put more funding to this office so that it can work according to its design because it is underfunded. We also need to decentralise it to districts, including all the provinces. Maladministration can easily be detected if this office is decentralised.If it existed in all the districts and provinces, there would be smaller units, and it would be easyfor the responsible officersto detect maladministration.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I want to state, again, that I support this Vote, and urge the Government to allocate more funds to the office so that it can function properly.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Amutike (Mongu Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much.

Mr Chairperson, may I just state upfront that the people of Mongu Central support this Vote. The Office of the Public Protector is avery important institution created by the Constitution and its job is to protect and advance democracy. Let me state upfront that in previous regimes, this office did not perform to its optimal level and it has not even established itself as a public lawyer. This institution is supposed to be a public lawyer for the people, to protect and advance their interest, but it is nowhere to be seen. When people are crying for service delivery,it is nowhere to be seen. It is nowhere to be seen when the majority of the people are queuingfor services that the Government should be able to give them.

Sir, when people were crying for National Registration Cards (NRCs) just before the 2021 Elections, the voice of this office was nowhere. When municipalities are failing to collect garbage, this office is nowhere to be seen. It is its job to speak about these issues on behalf of the people. When you go to Mongu Central, our drainages are full of garbage but I have never heard the Office of the Public Protector say anything about that. These are the matters that they should concern themselves with; matters that concern the public.

Mr Chairperson, let me just read the functions of the Public Protector. The Public Protector’s job is to investigate claims of abuse of power, unfair or rude treatment, and unnecessary delays in terms of service delivery to the public. The Public Protector must investigate non-adherence to rules and dishonest or improper handling of money by those in the Public Service. The Public Protector must even investigate personal gains through bribes or corruption. It should not just leave these functions to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). It has that mandate.

Sir, we hope that with this Budget, the Public Protector will, in the New Dawn Government, re-establish this office to be effective and to start advancing the interests of the people. That is what we want to see. We want to see this office well-resourced so that it can do this function on behalf of the people of Zambia. Somebody in Lumbo Ward or Kaama Ward must be protected and hear the voice of the Public Protector because they do not have access to a good road or electricity. That is what the Public Protector must do.

Mr Chairperson, our councils and Mayors are now concentrating more on issues to do with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) than the issues that they are supposed to be concentrating on. The Public Protector must voice these issues and ensure that the people employed in the councils do the work of collecting litter, collecting garbage and providing water and electricity to the people. That is what we want to see our Public Protector do.

Sir, I adopt the words of Hon. Katuta who has compared what our Public Protector does to what the one in South Africa does. We must emulate that and raise the profile of this office so that it can start working for the people. It is an office of the people, by the people and for the people of Zambia. So, that is what we want to see.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I support this Vote.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kalobo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kalobo: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 on the hon. Member who was just been debating. Is he in order to mislead this House and himself by duplicating the functions of the Public Protector? This Constitution in Articles 244(1) and 224(a) and 224(b) clearly spells out the functions of the Public Protector. He is talking about the Public Protector investigating personal gains which is not provided for in this Constitution. He has gone further to politicise this office, which is non-political.

Sir, this office, if he may wish to note, is one of the milestones of the 2016 Constitution. The previous office was the Investigator General which did not have the powers that have been given to the Public Protector. Is he in order?

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: As we debate, let us ensure that we are knowledgeable about whatever we talk about and that we can substantiate it. So, the hon. Member was not in order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalobo: Eh ma ruling!

Mr Mulunda (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, let me make a few comments on this very important office in the land.

Sir, the Public Protector’s Office is one office that is supposed to protect the liberties, rights and other things associated with the freedom of every citizen. It is unfortunate that this office is not decentralised and we cannot see its face in provinces and districts. This is one office that has been, for the lack of a better word, operating without teeth. It has not been able to bite or rise to the occasion.

Mr Chairperson, talking about the previous regime and the abuse and brutality that we experienced during the Patriotic Front (PF) reign, you would wonder whether we had this office existing in Zambia because nobody was able to run to it and be able to be protected.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulunda: They lived in fear and they could not cough. Even if you went there, they lived in Zambia and they are in Zambia and they saw the brutality of the police at that time and the abuse of office, but nobody spoke about the rights and liberties of the citizens of this country. It is our hope that with the allocation of the money we are appropriating today, this office will rise to the occasion and be able to address the ills that the people of Zambia are subjected to everyday.

Sir, I know it was difficult to operate as a professional under the previous regime. Somebody said they were championing the enactment of the 2016 Constitution. There are many lacunas that have brought us serious problems and I am surprised that they participated in coming up with the Constitution.

Mr Chairperson, my desire and the desire of the citizens of this country is that we see the face of this very important office across this country. We must be able to run to it and be protected. We must be able to find refuge and say we have an office that is going to look after us and look at the interest of the people of Zambia.

Sir, if it was an issue of incompetence that has led the people who have been in those offices not to do what they are supposed to be doing, then the Government should move in and clean the system. However, if the issue was of fearing the brutal regime that would threaten every office, we expect them to change and perform.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity given to the people of Kanyama to add a voice to this debate. From the outset, the people of Kanyama support this Vote. Much has been said about the conduct of this institution, what it has and what it does not have, but allow me to air a few concerns that I feel have not been addressed.

Sir, as you may be aware, the mandate of this institution is to promote and safeguard the interests and rights of individuals in a quest of receiving a public service that should be just and fair. What is happening in a number of these institutions is unbelievable. It is as if we do not have such an institution in the country. There are issues of corruption in a number of institutions which this institution is supposed to safeguard. There is mischief taking place in these institutions but it is like there is a vacuum, as if this institution is not in existence.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to make mention of the guiding principles that this institution is supposed to operate on. The institution needs to be independent. It needs to be independent from political influence and any other influence that may jeopardise its operations, integrity and accessibility.

Mr Chairperson, for this institution to operate, it needs to be visible. It needs to there in each and every district. As it is now, it is just in a few places where I would say there is discrimination in the sense that in other provinces or districts, this institution is nonexistence. It needs to operate impartially. It should ensure that whatever happens, emotions should not be aired.This institution just needs to work as it should.

Mr Chairperson, with regards to professionalism, we are told of a class of individuals who are supposed to be in this institution, who are lawyers.The Act provides for the qualifications that needto be looked into before one is given this job.

Sir, the people of Zambia have the right to know what the Government is doing and because of that, the Government is under obligation to review such information. I am talking about transparency.

Mr Chairperson, there must be wide awareness of the existence of this institution. People should know when and where to report in the event that there are malpractices happening in one or two intuitions.

Mr Chairperson, if you go to one of these Government intuitions,what you will see there is a sorry sight. Zambians have given a mandate to some people to look at their plight. An example is those in the medical fraternity. When you gothere seeking a service, you find the one who is supposed to serve you busy taking a selfie. You go there in need of information, and someone is busy on WhatsApp, really! This is the kind of work that we need this institution to conduct.

Mr Chairperson, there is money which isgiven to this institution to enable it to go round and conduct investigations. Investigators need to go round and establish whether these institutions are operating in an ethical manner or in accordance with the guided procedures and policies that are in these particular institutions. However, that is not happening and it is very sad. Therefore, to release funds like that to an institution that is not performing is misappropriation of funds. Those are funds which could have gone to other developmental issues in the country.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I wish to emphasise that this institution needs to be in each and every district so that people can access it and advance their grievances so that the country can be led in a professional manner.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Mr Chairperson, thank you so much for this opportunity to add the voice of the people of Mpika to the debate on this very important Vote.

Mr Chairperson, this office is created by our Constitution under Article No. 243 and by any design, this office should be the one helping our people.

Mr Chairperson, I will give an example of how this office has been very absent in matters affecting our people. Last week, seven of our children from Mpika went to sit for an exam in a neighbouring district. They had some altercation with the teachers and the teachers decided to mobilise, apprehended the children, beat them and handed them over to the police. This office has not taken interest in this matter. There are also other cases that I can cite of my people in Mpika where animals graze their fields and they are killed by the very animals, yet this office cannot protect our people.

Mr Chairperson, this office’s biggest challenge has been that it is just here in Lusaka and even the people in Lusaka do not know anything about it. Even the officers in this office should tell the Zambian people what they have been doing ever since this office was established.

Mr Chairperson, it goes to show that this office needs to be decentralised just like this Government is about to decentralise the Antony-Generals Chambers. Even this very important office must be decentralised at least to the provincial headquarters and district offices. They should establish district offices for our people who are in Nabwalya, Chombo, Mukungule and Katibunga to access these offices.

Mr Chairperson, I have a case involving two civil servants who have been in Government for years and have not been confirmed because they hold different qualifications for the job that they are doing right now. They have appealed to this office for help, but it has been two years and they have not been helped. They cannot make follow-ups because it has proved to be costly for them to be moving from Chinsali to Lusaka every time they need to interface with this office.

Mr Chairperson, I have difficulties supporting this budget allocation, but I hope with this allocation, this office will up its operations and ensure that it is accessible by the Zambian people. There is a need for it to do a lot of publicity and make people aware of its location. It needs to be accessed by our people. Our people need the services of this office.

Mr Chairperson, I have a question. Where has it been when the people of Zambia needed it the most? Where was it when the Opposition leaders were being brutally arrested? Where was it when our hospitals did not have medicines? Where was it when farmers were receiving fertiliser in galloons and tins? This office should take advantage and defend our people against this.

 

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I want to once again, appeal to the conscience of those holding this office. They must work and ensure that they protect our people. It is a very important office that can investigate anyone. It is a very important office that can take interest in any matter. However, to date, most of our people know nothing about the Public Protector’s Office.

Mr Chairperson, we have public officers who are mistreating our people. We have public officers who cannot provide necessary services to our people in a manner that they are required to do so, but this office takes no interest in such matters. Our people cannot manage to come all the way from Chienge to report such matters here in Lusaka. Even if it was in Mansa, our people would still not manage to come from Samfya or Chienge to report such matters. Even if it was in Chinsali, our people from Mpika, Nabwalya and Nachikufu would not manage to go all the way to Chinsali to go and report this issue. So, this calls for this office to be decentralised up to district level so that our people are able to access the services of the Public Protector.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Sefulo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Sefulo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for allowing me, on behalf of the people of Mwandi, to rise on this important point of order.

Sir, I attentively listened to the hon. Member who is just from debating as he deliberately misled the nation that people are receiving fertiliser in tins and gallons. I would like him to substantiate what he is just from telling the nation because, in Mwandi, there is no one who has received fertiliser in tins and gallons.

Rev. Katutainterjected.

Ms Sefulo: Hon. Member for Chienge, can you allow me, as woman, to rise on this point of order. You are a woman. Can you allow me just to finish what I want to say?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: Can he substantiate what he has said according to Standing Order 65?

Mr Chairperson, I submit.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member for Mpika is not in order to …

Mr Kapyanga:Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You are not in order. The hon. Minister has been on the Floor of the House, and even in your constituency. You know what a pack is. I also have a constituency. So, he is not in order to mislead the nation and to mislead himself and his constituency.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let us ensure that we are factual and we do not politic on national matters just to gain political mileage. It is not good.

Mr Mukosa will be the last person to speak and then Her Honour the Vice-President will wind up debate.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add a few comments on the debate on the Floor of this House.

Sir, as I begin to debate, I first want to read the mandate of this very important institution. The mandate of this institution is to curb and redress grievances of maladministration in public institutions to enhance effective and efficient service delivery to the general public. This is in accordance with Article 224 of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016.

Mr Chairperson, having read the mandate and having indicated that the Office of the Public Protector is a creature of the Constitution, I would like to put on record that I support its budget. This is a very important office, which is supposed to help all of us to curb maladministration and administration injustices.

Sir, I also take note that in her policy statement, the Vice-President indicated that this 2023 Budget is going to take care of decentralisation to six provinces. That is how it is supposed to be. We know that a journey of 1000 miles starts with one step. When it decentralises to six provinces, we know that eventually, it will go to all provinces. What do we want to achieve? What we want to see a situation in which maladministration in the distribution of farming inputs in Chinsali, for example, is reported to a representative of the Office of the Public Protector in Chinsali. If there is maladministration in the way drugs in hospitals are managed, we want the people of Chinsali to go and report to that office. Whether it is in Mafinga or in Isoka, we want all the districts to have representation of the Office of the Public Protector.

Mr Chairperson, I have heard most hon. Members condemn how the Office of the Public Protector operates or has operated in the past. I would like to say that before we condemn this office, we must, first of all, look at what impedes its operations. We can only condemn after we do that.

 

Sir, for this office to operate effectively, it needs to have independence. It should not just be independent, but should also be seen to be independent. That way, we are going to see that some of these problems we were talking about will not be there.

Sir, we should not just compare this office to the similar one in South Africa or any other country, yet do not compare the independence of the two. The question is: Is the Office of the Public Protector here in Zambia as independent as the one in South Africa? You will find that the answer is no.

Sir, what has delayed its decentralisation? You may find that it is issues surrounding its independence, whereby it does not make proper decisions because, sometimes, it fears the political intervention that may come to it.

Mr Chairperson, this office cuts across all public institutions. So, we want the 2023 Budget to take care of the administration independence that this office needs to get. We want this office to check everywhere. It should be able to check the Judiciary, and even here, at the National Assembly. We are also a public institution. I just want to use it as an example.

Sir, there are times when you can be told, in an event that you do not get an answer for a particular issue from here, to seek recourse elsewhere. We want hon. Members of Parliament to go to that office so that it comes and helps us here. Even when one is debating, and then one is curtailed or not treated properly, we would like hon. Members to go to that office so that it can come and help us.

Hon. Government Members:Aah!

Mr Mukosa: For instance, when you are debating and you are curtailed or you are not treated properly, you want this office to come and help you.

Interruptions

Mr Mukosa: When you feel like you are treated like a child or disrespected, you want this office to come and help you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukosa: Mr Chairperson, this is a very important office. I commend Her Honour the Vice-President for increasing the funding and channelling some of it towards the decentralisation of the office so that it is established everywhere.

Sir, in its current form, the establishment of this office is about 109 members of staff. As we speak, there are about eighteen positions that need Treasury Authority. The Vice-President should liaise with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and ensure that this office works effectively. She should not hesitate. We want the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to immediately issue Treasury Authority so that the eighteen members of staff can be employed. We want those positions to be funded because even if we decentralised, without adequate members of staff, it will just be decentralisation in name. There will be no workers to work.

Mr Chairperson, there are about sixty-nine members of staff, and then we are going to decentralise to about six provinces. These members of staff are already at the Office of the Public Protector. Are we going to send these same members of staff to the provinces? If we send them, there will be few members of staff at the Office of the Public Protector. So, what will happen is that when we go there and they do not address some of the issues, we will rush to say that this office is not doing anything. They should be brave and so on and so forth, buthave we capacitated them?

Let us protect this office so that even here in the House, when we are threatened that we will not be paid an allowance when we walk out, this office should be able to help us.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Mukosa: They are saying ‘Question,’ yet the Vice-President is supporting what I am saying.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, let me also thank the hon. Members who have debated Head 12, which is the Office of the Public Protector.

Mr Chairperson, the passion with which the hon. Members have debated shows that this is a very important office. Indeed, in the policy statement that I made, I think the mandate came out very, very well. Let me start by thanking the hon. Member for Wusakile because I think he did a lot of justice as to what this office is all about. It is an office for those lawyers who deal with administrative law of public institutions. It is the decisions of a public officer in administering or providing service to the people. It is not about criminality so much.

Mr Chairperson, it is difficult for this office to deal with some things that the hon. Members talked about, for example, the issue of animal-human conflict. Yes, they can turn the issue around and find out what the game ranger was doing when the animals went to invade the field. There are too many cases that have been brought in here. However, we see the importance of this office.

Mr Chairperson, I said that the mandate of this office is to investigate an action or a decision taken or omitted to be taken by a State institution or an officer in the State institution in the performance of an administrative function. It is very important that we do understand this so that we do not go all over. That is why the hon. Member raised a point of order, that we are putting other mandates under this Head.

Mr Chairperson, hon. Colleagues, just because there is another country with an office with the same title, do not think the function is the same. It is important for us to go back and read. Indeed, previously, we have had this office under a different name, which is, The Ombudsman. The functions and even the reporting system of this office are not the same in the countries that some hon. Members have spoken about. So, we have to understand our own offices. If there are lacunae, it is important that this House identifies those lacunae so that we can make good and extend the mandate of this office and what it need to do.

Mr Chairperson, there is one issue that came from almost everybody. People should not bring criminal cases to this Vote because we have so many. Some are human rights violation cases and not administrative ones. They are proper human rights violation cases, and those should be looked at by the Human Rights Commission. I am going to present the Human Rights Commission after this Vote. Let us identify the issues under this office instead of confusing everybody that they should be running to the ombudsman when they are beaten. I think those are not cases for the ombudsman. The Office of the Public Protector deals with administration issues like what decisions people are making in facilitating a service to the public or to the people of our country.

Mr Chairperson, the point I heard which everybody was concerned about is the visibility of this office. I think it comes out from almost everywhere that people know very little about this office. I think we hear that and we must take it seriously. The policy statement that I gave clearly stated that there is decentralisation. Some hon. Members who chose to listen observed that we are going to decentralise to six provinces. Somebody asked which provinces these are, and that it would be good if they knew. I wish to state that the six provinces are Luapula, the Northern, Copperbelt, the Western, the Southern and the Eastern.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member for Wusakileused the wordprogressively in his debate.We are decentralising. This is the policy of this Government and that means that all Government functions and decisions, whether in health or education, are going to decentralised. However, I cannot say that will be done at once.In fact, this office has existed for a long time.We have been stuck, but we are now working to operationalise the Decentralisation Policy.

Mr Chairperson, feasibilityis a concern and we will continue singing about the functions. I read the mandate,and you can see what goes on.I agree with the hon. Memberthat the institution must continue carrying out awareness programmes although he said ten are not enough, but we look at the resources that are available.It will continue carrying out awareness, sensitisation and having meetings so that people know where to go when a public officer does not make the right decision. So, I agree with the hon. Member for Wusakile that there is a need for more feasibility and, when there is more feasibility,he should not come and say that hedoes not support that.

Mr Chairperson, some hon. Members have made up their minds.My niece has decided notto support the budget for this institution. No, that is not the way to go. We need to support this institutionlike some hon. Members debated.We need to capacitate and strengthen itand give it more resources because what else will it do if it does not have resources to establish an office in Chienge?

Mr Chairperson, hon. Members should not confuse criminal matters with those that go to the ombudsman.When people are beaten, that is not an administrative issue and they should go to the right institution.If it is the police who are misbehaving,they should also be taken to the right institution. That is not a decision for action, but pure failure or criminality. So, we understand these things.Somebody even said that the Public Protector is the one who protects all the freedoms. Please, it is not that all the freedoms that are under the ombudsman are administrative. However, I appreciate those who said that they will continue supporting the office and we will continue to decentralise.

Mr Chairperson, one hon. Member debated the issues of this House. I do not know if I should comment on the issues that the other person did not debate on.However, certain institutions also have their own protection.The work of this House cannot ordinarily come under question.We have our own protection.Hon. Members have their own protection in this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

The Vice-President:That is true; there is protection in this House.That is why we punish them here and we do not take them to jail when they do wrong things.Indeed, I know we are politicians, and we can go all the way but, truly, we need to have the numbers forthe establishment to grow andfor us to decentralise.

Mr Chairperson, I agree with Hon. Mukosa, the Member of Parliament for Chinsali, that this institution needs support for it to be stronger, and to decentralise and do the work well. Recruitment, under this Government, will continue, and we are growing.

What else do I need to say? I have talked about decentralisation and who theombudsman is. However, the hon. Member for Kanyama talked of the work of this office with impartiality. Truly,theombudsmanensures that he investigates in the right manner and that the officers do the right things.

That includes transparency andaccountability and that is what they look at. So, when you call for them to practice professionalism, they should do the same and we do agree that we will be looking at that.

Mr Chairperson, I, however, still appeal to hon. Colleagues that failure to support this office is not a solution. This is a constitutional office and it needs our support, unless we strike it off the Constitution. Otherwise, we have a duty to support this office. This institution is a creation of the people of Zambia and they need it. Just like many other institutions, it needs to be strengthened. So, I call upon the hon. Member for Chienge to support this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Chairperson, in her policy statement, Her Honour the Vice-President pointed out the critical issue of decentralisation, which we appreciate. I will take you to the table on page 141. There is only one programme that shows a bit of what the Vice-President was speaking about, which is decentralisation.

Sir, maybe to make it easier for her, I will take her to page 139, where is a summary of the budget. The only budget line that seems to be speaking to the decentralisation programme is Economic Classification, Sub-Programme 21 – Personal Emoluments – K12,090,294. There has been an increment from last year’s approved expenditure of K5,537,105 to K12,090,294. At least it shows that there will be some staff recruitment that might be helpful to the decentralisation policy.

Mr Chairperson, I have not seen any other budget line that speaks to the deployment of officers in those areas where the decentralisation programme is going to start with. I stand to be corrected, but I think the Vice-President said that there are six provinces. Which budget line will be speaking to the deployment of officers in those areas where Her Honour the Vice-President said officers will be sent as a way of decentralising the operations of the Public Protector?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, indeed, that is the summary under the economic classification of what the Office of the Public Protector is going to do. I think the hon. Member has seen that there is an increase everywhere under economic classification, but we also need to look at the sub-programmes. There is an increase, not only for personal emoluments, but also on goods and services. I think hon. Members can see that from K9,861,493, the amount has increased to K13,482,046. When you talk of our Public Service, you will see that that could capture quite a number of people – not a number of people, sorry, but it depends on what goods and services they need.

Mr Chairperson, to start with, we have to remember that it is only six offices and not all the provinces. There are six provinces and one office in each of the six. So, this is under what they could get. Of course, we could do with more. They could do with more if there was enough resource, but there is an increase on the goods and services and a slight increase on the assets too. So, there is that plan. It may not be a luxury, but it is a necessity and they will work within these means.

I thank you, Sir.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 141, Table 3, Programme 4002 – Mal-administration Awareness – K1,292,970. In 2022, the budget was K 1,024,594. Sub-programme 9006 – Planning, Policy Coordination and Information Management – K1,301,133.Is creating awareness and information management, unless it is Information Communication Technology (ICT), not the same and why the different figures?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, maybe, I did not really get what the hon. Member is saying because she is looking at different programmes and wondering why the figures are different. I do not know if she thinks they are the same. Make me understand what it is. If they are different, she referred to Table 3, on page 141 which is Mal-administration Awareness and this is Sub-programme 4002 which had an allocation of K1,024,594 for 2022 and then K1,292,970 for 2023. A difference of K268,376 which is meant for sensitisation campaigns to state institutions and the public. It will also cater for programmes on both radio and television, which issues people talked about here. The hon. Member is asking if this allocation isfor planning or policy coordination. That is a different programme, and so, it must surely, have a different figure. The figure here was K1,134,221, was it not? This year, it has been increased by 15 per cent to K1,301,133. So, surely, these are two distinct programmes and they can never be the same figure.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 34 –(Human Rights Commission – K32,754,027)

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present the Policy Statement of the 2023 Estimates of Recurrent Expenditure for Vote 34/01 – Human Rights Commission.

Mandate of the Commission

The Human Rights Commission is a national human institution with a broad constitutional mandate to ensure that the Bill of Rights is upheld and protected, as envisaged under Article 230 of the Constitution of Zambia. Pursuant to Section 9 (d) of the Human Rights Commission Act, Cap. 48 of the Law as of Zambia, the mandate of the commission is to:

1. invest and report on the observance of rights and freedoms;
2. take necessary steps to secure appropriate redress were rights and freedoms are violated;
3. endeavour to resolve a dispute through negotiation, mediation, or conciliation;
4. carry out research on rights and freedoms and related matters; and
5. visit prisons and places of detention or related facilities with the view of assessing and inspecting conditions of the persons held in such places.

Mission and Goal Statement

Mr Chairperson, the Mission Statement is, “The Human Rights Commission, as a national human rights institution, seeks to contribute to the promotion of full enjoyment and protection of human rights for all the people in Zambia through advocacy and promotion of human rights, investigation and appropriate redress of human rights violations and monitoring of compliance with human standards.”

Mr Chairperson, the Goal Statementis, “An effective, respected, responsive and independent guardian of human rights for all time.”

Overview of 2022 Budget Performance

Mr Chairperson, in 2022, the Human Rights Commission was allocated K21,199,507. The following are the achievements of the Commission:

Promotion and Protection of Human Rights

1. the commission has received a total of 1,384 cases in 2022.
2. the commission also:

1. undertook inspection of places of detention across all the ten provinces pursuant to Section 9 (d) of the Human Rights Commission Act;
2. conducted a total of twenty community sensitisation meetings in all the ten provinces of Zambia;
3. conducted, at least, thirty discussion programmes on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) radio and television, community, private and religious television and radio stations across the country;
4. conducted, at least, fifty sessions on human rights education in selected detention and correctional facilities across the country;
5. participated in commemoration days such as the International Women’s Day, Africa Public Service Day and organised the twentieth edition of the commemoration of the World Day Against the Death Penalty, which falls on 10^th October, each year.

1. the commission will scale up human rights awareness activities during the Sixteen Days of Activism Against Gender Based Violence (GBV) which begins on 25^th November, 2022 and commemorate Human Rights Day which falls on 10^th December, each year. The commission submitted the alternative report on the Universal Periodic Review (UPR) for the forth cycle of the upcoming review of Zambia in 2023. The commission assisted in building capacity on business and human rights in readiness for the development of the national action plan on business and human rights for Zambia.

Management and Support Services

The commission;

1. facilitated the comprehensive orientation of the newly appointed Commissioners;
2. facilitated further orientation of the Commissioners and new staff through feminisation meetings with key stakeholders in the criminal justice system and in line ministries in five provision capitals;
3. held a statutory meeting of the commission; and
4. recruited fourteen staff to support staffing levels at the Head of Office and the three provinces earmarked for decentralisation.

Mr Chairperson, the commission undertook short-term capacity building programmes for staff to improve knowledge base and performance.

Sir, the also commission procured utility vehicles to improve the availability of transport required for the commission to discharge its mandate;

The commission conducted seven audits at Mansa, Solwezi. Chinsali, Kabwe, Mongu, Ndola and the Head Office;

The Commission also held three audit Committee Meetings and one Ad hoc Audit Committee meeting pursuant to the Public Finance Management Act.

2023 Budget Estimates

Mr Chairperson, the functions and mandate of the Human Rights Commission (HRC)is executed through two key programmes namely:

Promotion and Protection of Human Rights

This comprises three distinct Sub-Programmes of providing Investigations and Legal Services, Information, Education, Training, Research and Planning. The programme summary estimate is at K19, 449,464.  The following are the Sub-Programmes;

1. Human Rights Education and Awareness;
2. Human Rights Advocacy; and
3. Human Rights Violations Investigations.

Management and Support services

Sir, this programme ensures that quality services are provided to the Executive office there as that there is effective human resource management and the provision of efficient logistical and material support services to the commission. The programme summary estimates is at K13, 304,563. The following are the Sub-Programmes:

1. Executive Office Management;
2. Human Resources and Administration; Financial Management;
3. Accounting Audit; and
4. Financial Management Internal Audit.

Mr Chairperson, in summary, the HRC operational Budget Estimates for 2023 amounts to K 32,754,027.

Mr Chairperson, the budget estimates for the HRC before this august House will ensure that people in Zambia are assured of their rights being respected and upheld as this funding will go a long way in sustaining the operations of the commission.

In this regard, I appeal to the hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for Chienge, to support the estimates of expenditure for the HRC as presented.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairpersongave the Floor toMr Mapani.

Mr Mapaniwas notavailable.

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Chairperson, thank you so very much for the opportunity, and thanks very much to Her Honour the Vice President.

Mr Chairperson, to start with, human rights are human rights. However, where one’s right end, the other person’s right begins. In other words, as much as we have human rights, we have to know that other people also do have the same. All we need is to exist in harmony by each one of us observing the same human rights. As it has been stated, the commission is mandated to investigate, human rights.

I have the right to own and carry a gun, but not anywhere and everywhere, because then I violate other people’s rights. It is very important that all of us observe human rights.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about bullet number three, the National Development Plan Framework. Her Honour the Vice-President said that they will decentralise the Public Service System, but the right to education is one basic human right. I think the new deal – New Dawn Government …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: … is doing well because every constituency and district has received a good number of teachers. We saw the hon. Minister of Education flag off the distribution of desks. This was never done before, but every school is now receiving a grant. That is a human right.

Mr Chairperson, the Government is doing things methodically. Those people who never had anything have now started having something. That is the way to go and that is a human right.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: In the same vein, the Human Rights Commission plans to procure utility vehicles and, of course, some will be taken to the Western Province, specifically to Lukuluand Mitete, to enable it investigate some matters. When going to Lukulu, the officers will pass through a road and we do not want these vehicles to be subjected to wear and tear.

Hon. Member: Which road?

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, this road is very cardinal not only for the people of Lukulu, Mitete and Mwembezhi but also for the Human Rights Commission as it goes to carry out investigations so that we lessen wear and tear …

Ms Sefulo: Hear, hear! Human rights!

Mr Mutelo: … because it is human rights.

Mr Chairperson, the past regime neglected the human rights aspect of this same road for ten years. The good thing is that Her Honour the Vice-President said that the road will be worked on when money will be available, and we see this money being available. When the Human Rights Commission carries out investigations, some of the money it will recoup can be used on the Lukulu/Katunda/Watopa Road.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: I support this Vote so that the commission can be very effective.

Mr Chairperson, we need to be protected as we are now being protected in terms of education.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_______

The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 22^ndNovember, 2022.

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