Friday, 11th November, 2022

Printer Friendly and PDF

       Friday, 11thNovember, 2022

The House met at0900hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]






Madam Speaker: I inform the House that the Zambia Education Projects Implementation Unitunder the Ministry of Education has been authorised to hold an open day for all interested hon. Members of Parliament on Monday, 14th November, 2022 at 0900 hours at its premises along Mungwi Road, Industrial Area near Government Stores.

The main purpose of the open day ceremony is to enable the Zambia Education Projects Implementation Unit to acquaint hon. Members with the standard requirements of infrastructure and school furniture set by the Ministry of Education.

Hon. Members are encouraged to attend this important programme on voluntary basis.

Hon. Members are encouraged to be punctual.

I thank you.


Madam Speaker: The singing of the National Anthem was much better apart from a few hon. Members who were not singing. Either they do not know the words or –


Madam Speaker: However, there is much improvement. I could see the hon.Member for Mpika never even opened his mouth.




The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, let me give the House an indication of the Business it will consider next week.

Madam, on Tuesday, 15th November, 2022, the Business of House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Votes:

  1. Vote 21 – Loans and Investments-Ministry of Finance and National Planning; and
  2. Vote 37 – Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Madam, on Wednesday, 16th November,2022, the Business of House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. TheHouse will, then consider a Private Member’s Motion titled; Reduce Retirement Age, to be moved by Mr N. Samakayi, Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga Parliamentary Constituency. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Votes:

  1. Vote 25 – Local Government Service Commission; and
  2. Vote 29 – Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development.

Madam, on Thursday, 17th November,2022, the Business of House will commence with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Votes:

  1. Vote 12 – Office of the Public Protector;
  2. Vote 34 – Human Rights Commission; and
  3. Vote 26 – Ministry of Information and Media.

Madam, on Friday, 18thNovember,2022, the Business of House will start with Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. Thereafter, the House will deal with Question for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Votes:

Vote 33 – Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry; and

Vote 35 – Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprises.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.




Mr Kang’ombe(Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for allowing the people of Kamfinsa to raise an urgent matter of public importance.

Madam Speaker, the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB) recently invited successful applicants of places at universities to apply for educational loans. Unfortunately, the list that has been published of those who will be sponsored by the Government indicates that many have been left out on this very important opportunity to acquire further education.

I rise on this urgent matter of public importance to seek your indulgence, on behalf of the many young people who have been left out on the list of those to be sponsored by the Government, considering that any failure to sponsor these children will not allow them to further their studies, especially that they have a duty to contribute to the economy of our country.

Madam Speaker, I know you have always guided that an urgent matter must qualify by the standardthat has been set. I seek your indulgence because this matter relates to the future of our country. It relates to an opportunity that has to be given to young people to acquire education. It will be important that Her Honor the Vice-President responds to this very urgent matter of leaving out so many young people from the list of applicants for Students Educational Loans, which in essence are monies that will be paid back when our young people begin working.

I seek your indulgence, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Hon.Member for Kamfinsa, the criterion for raising a matter of urgent public importance is very specific. I do not know why hon.Members are having difficulties appreciating that criterion. Whereas the matter you have raised is very important, of course, there are many other ways that it can be raised and be dealt with other than raising it as matter of urgent public importance. For example, we have Her Honor the Vice-President Question Time. Why can you not take advantage of that and ask that particular question? That way, we will make some progress. So, if you indicate and you want to ask, I will make sure I recognise you so that you can ask that question.

I thank you.



Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to pose a question to Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, Grant Thornton, a private audit and advisory firm, in which politically exposed persons are also connected, has moved in to start auditing Defence Force Units. This move has raised serious concerns among defence officers and members of the public, generally, as it is very dangerous to allow private entities to access secret national security documents and military purchases.

My question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: Why is her Government disregarding the work of State institutions, in this case, the Auditor-General, but instead, prefers private audit firms in which politicians have interest?

The Vice-President was consulting.

Madam Speaker: Maybe, we can stop the clock. Stop the clock.

The Vice-President(Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I thought the time would run.


The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for that question. Since the facts are not very clear to me, I think it is important that we defer that question because some things that hinge on issues of security are very difficult to discuss on an open forum like this. However, I will need a little more information so that I give a more precise response.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I am sure the Leader of the Opposition can live with that because I can see him smiling.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, thank you so much –

Hon. Government Members: Microphone!

Mr Kafwaya: Oh! I thought it was this microphone and not that one.


Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the question that has just passed is talking about national security. So, let me just talk about procedure. Did the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government tender this award to Grant Thornton? There are allegations that the UPND Government is awarding contracts arbitrarily to its friends.

Madam Speaker: Well, I do not want to take the place of Her Honour the Vice-President by answering. So, I will leave it to Her Honour the Vice-President.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I commend you for not responding, lest, you get accused.

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Lunte for asking that question. I am very happy that in his question, the hon. Member was not very specific. He talked about allegations. Allegations are as they are. It does not mean that they are facts. It is not true that this Government is awarding tenders to its friends. I think that is too general a statement and is misleading to the public. It is important that each case is looked at as it is. You cannot list the names of people and say they are friends to someone. If they are friends to anybody, does it mean they cannot participate?

Madam Chairperson, I think it is important to look at the procedure as the hon. Member said. Does this person meet the criteria as set out? If anything, those are the issues we should be talking about. We should not be talking about allegations that people are friends. Even the hon. Member, as my son, he should participate and if he qualifies, he should get the tender. He should not fail to get it just because he is my son. That is not the way this Government is going to proceed. I pray not.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe(Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the people of Kamfinsa are excited that you have given them an opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question relating to the education support to students who have been accepted at public universities. I stand here as a beneficiary of this education support. I am aware that after the Government advertised requests for students to apply for education loans, many students have been left out. I am overwhelmed with phone calls from the constituency and other parts of Zambia. People are asking when the Government is going to increase the number of beneficiaries after the recent advertisement, which has shown that many young people have been left out, and they will not be able to acquire education at the University of Zambia (UNZA), the Copperbelt University (CBU) ...


Mr Kang’ombe: ... and other public institutions. 

Mr Kang’ombe: This is a very important issue ...

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kang’ombe: ... which Madam Speaker, referred to Her Honour the Vice-President. 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kamfinsa for that question on the educational support.

Mr Kang’ombeconversed with his hon. Colleagues.


The Vice-President: The hon. Member is not even listening, and I think I am speaking to myself. So, I have answered his question.


The Vice-President: He was not listening. So –

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order! Please, stop the clock!

As we ask questions, let us listen to the answers so that we do not repeat the questions. Otherwise, it is not worthy asking a question, and then, when it is being answered, you are not paying attention. 

Mr C. Chibuye (Mkushi North): Madam Speaker, the people of Mkushi sent me to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question in relation to the packs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP).

Madam Speaker, Mkushi was blessed with the visit of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, in the first week of this month. During his visit, he actually promised and told the people of Mkushi that they should not be worried. He said that FISP was actually on, and that the benefit for each farmer would be to receive eight bags of fertiliser. My question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: What is it that the people of Mkushi should expect? Now, they are being told by the hon. Minister of Agriculture that farmers will receive six bags of fertiliser, when the Head of State promised them the people of Mkushi that they will receive eight bags of fertiliser, four bags of basal dressing, and four bags topdressing.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr C. Chibuye: What should we take as the people of Mkushi? 


Madam Speaker: Order, order!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Mkushi, for that question. It gives me an opportunity to give clarity on this issue. 

Madam Speaker, I can use a figure. If the President used the figure eight, how many times did he use it? Was it once? It could be a slip of the tongue.


The Vice-President: The President and this Government have made it very clear that a pack consists of six bags of fertiliser. That is very clear. I hope the hon. Member is not giving hearsays. He may not have even attended the meeting himself.

Madam,I think all hon. Members of Parliament are aware that a pack is six bags of fertiliser and a 10 kg bag of maize seed. We also have an optional pack which is a 25 kg bag of soya seed and a 20 kg bag of groundnut seed, and a farmer gets either a 25 kg bag of soya seed or a 20 kg bag of groundnut seed, and I think this is settled and clear to all of us. The hon. Member could have even helped by saying he thinks it is six. So, let us not make allegations in the House and mislead the people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, in my constituency, there is a chiefdom called Nabwalya Chiwombo, which is near North Luangwa National Park. Usually, when people grow crops, the animals graze their fields. These people depend on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) from the Government, which is implemented annually. In the past, a company called Sitatunga, whose contract has been terminated by the Government, operated from there and it used to help the people in such times. When will this Government deliver relief food to the people of Nabwalya who are now depending on roots for survival? Considering the fact that there is no road that will be used to take relief food to Nabwalya in December or January, may I find out when the Government intends to deliver relief food to Nabwalya.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mpika for that question on Nabwalya.

Madam Speaker, the Government is aware, except the hon. Member is talking about the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) and relief food. All of us must look at this scenario; he is talking about the FISP and relief rood. Sending relief food to Nabwalya is almost perennial. In this House, we should start thinking of permanent solutions to certain issues. The hon. Member knows Nabwalya better than all of us because he is the Member of Parliament. I would like the hon. Member to come to my office so we can discuss and come up with a permanent solution. What is the point of taking inputs through the FISP when food will not be produced, even for consumption? Is that the way we are going to move? The hon. Member can hear me loud and clear. He is welcome to my office. However, we have not left the people of Nabwalya without food. The hon. Member will agree that we have been giving the people of Nabwalya food. If food has run out, let him come and we can see what we can do. We are ready. We know the areas we need to take relief food to, as hon. Members raise these issues. We are going to deliver food to the ten districts in the country as we continue to work on preparedness and prepositioning food where there may be difficulties in future. We are working on that and Nabwalya is one of those areas where we will deliver food, but we took bags of maize to Nabwalya early in the year.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I hope the hon. Member for Mpika was listening.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Lundazi this rare chance to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, the past week, there has been no fuel in Lundazi and people are sleeping on the queue. They told me this morning to find out what is happening to the fuel supply.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, it is important for me to note that from the description of Lundazi, it must be a very developed district if people are sleeping on the line looking for fuel. Let us not exaggerate the situation that, in Lundazi, people are sleeping on a line and the hon. Member knows what I am talking about. However, we appreciate that people have been bringing out this concern, but I am told that we have enough fuel. The delivery of fuel in some areas may be slow, but the country in general has fuel.

Mr Kapalahanded The Vice-President a note.

The Vice-President: This is where I get information.


The Vice-President: Basically, the point I am making is that there is enough fuel in the country. If that situation has taken a whole week, and I know there are other people who have raised concerns about this, it is due to the delivery. The ministry and the regulators will work to ensure that fuel reaches the intended areas, otherwise, we have enough fuel in the country. In fact, I am informed Malawi is purchasing fuel from us. So, how come people are alleging that we do not have enough fuel? There is enough fuel, but I call upon the hon. Minister and the regulators to ensure that there is fuel in all parts of the country. I am sure that the fuel is coming. I think the hon. Member has many cars; she should send some to Kaputa.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwila(Mufulira): Madam Speaker, greetings to Her Honour the Vice-President from the mining town of Mufulira.

Madam Speaker, this week, there was a statement from the Chamber of Mines that the country’s copper production has reduced up to the end of the third quarter by slightly over 4 per cent. The mining sector has been given so many incentives and concessions such as mineral royalty and a cocktail of other incentives, and the reason is that we expect the production of copper to increase and jobs to be created. However, what is happening despite all these incentives is that people are losing jobs in the mines and the Chamber of Mines mentioned that copper production has reduced. Are we on the right path in the mining sector? Are we putting the correct measures to achieve what we want?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mufulira for being faithful and bringing greetings. Greetings back to Mufulira.

Madam Speaker, the concern is that there is reduced production, hopefully not productivity, of copper or minerals. Yes, this is almost historic. This Government is doing a lot in the area of concessions and the hon. Member talked about mineral royalty. All this is being done to stop such issues so that when policies are put in place, the result that we want is continuous production and raised production until we reach our three what …

Hon. Government Members: 3 million tonnes in ten years.

The Vice-President: … 3 million tonnes in ten years, not tomorrow, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … lest I am quoted as having said that by the end of the year, we will produce 3 million tonnes. It will take a lot of policy direction and we will have to create an environment in which mining can thrive, and hon. Members can also own some mines. This is what we want so that collectively, we can produce 3 million metric tonnes.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me a chance to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a very involving question and it is with a heavy heart that I ask it.

Madam Speaker, may I find out from Her Honour the Vice-President when the Government will come up with a comprehensive Land Audit Report in order to avoid all the illegal land allocation problems we inherited, which are giving us headaches as we try to sort them out. When is the Government going to come up with the comprehensive report which will allow poor Zambians to also have access to land and avoid wasting their monies on land given to them illegally?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mufumbwe for asking a question that I believe is a concern of every Zambian because illegal allocation of land brings misery. Sometimes people are given land in places that are not designated and at the end of the day, we end up with demolitions which are extremely inconveniencing to the people who are illegally given such pieces of land.

Madam Speaker, realising that this is very important, the Government is working. It is not an easy venture to do a land audit because it is extremely expensive. Therefore, the Government through the assigned ministry, the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources, is working on involving all stakeholders to probably be able to see how they can use the satellite to map our country and give the comprehensive audit report. This will enable us to know exactly how much land we have. If we are just talking about how much arable land we have and invite people without proper evidence of what we have, it will be difficult to come up with the comprehensive report. However, the Government is working on that. We know it is expensive, but it is important and must be done. I believe that it will be done. However, I cannot give the dates because his question was on when it would be done. I do not have the dates. It is my prayer that it can be done. I do not know whether anything in that regard has been captured in the Budget, if not, it means it may not be done in 2023, but later.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: This is usually a very interesting session, but there is a lot of noise in the House. Can we have some order so that we listen to the answers.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, there are some officers under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security and to be specific, the Zambia Police Service and the Zambia Correctional Service who passed out late last year but are not getting a full salary. When is the Government considering putting the affected officers on a full salary?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, indeed, a very concerning scenario has been painted. However, I am informed that everybody who is reporting for work is on a full salary. If we really need to follow this issue up, the hon. Member can go and see the hon. Minister with names and they can go through and see whether they are not on a full salary, as the issue cannot be discussed here. For the hon. Member to raise the question, he may know one or two officers who are not on a full salary.  Sometimes, hon. Members of Parliament come to us with things that are not so true, but he can pick it up with the Hon. Minister and ensure that at least there is some truth in what he is saying or that what we are saying here is true. However, from what we know, everybody is on a full salary except that some officers are not reporting for work.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) in various banks has accumulated interest. I had a meeting with my CDF Committee and the technocrats said that the money has to be deposited back into the Treasury. May I find out our position on the interest that has been accumulated because it was on this Floor of the House that the President mentioned that the money for the CDF ought to not go the Treasury but that it has to be used.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, if I have understood the hon. Member correctly, what he is saying is that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) which was deposited in various banks in the country has accrued interest.

Hon. Member: Correct!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the question the hon. Member is asking me is:  Where is the interest going to go? Whether there was a statement or not, I do not know where he gets this. He says that the interest will go back to the Treasury and not the constituency. I will need to find out because as I stand here, I am not aware of exactly how this interest accrued on the CDF will be treated. I think I can come with an answer at an appropriate time.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I know the Her Honour the Vice-President did not respond clearly to the question which was posed to her regarding the procedure which was followed in engaging the private audit firms. However, I will try to be specific.

Madam Speaker, the auditing of the public institutions is a constitutional matter and the Auditor General’s Office is provided for in the Constitution under Articles 249 and 250.

Madam Speaker, permit me to quote the functions of the Auditor General very briefly. Article 250, Clause 1 –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, as we do that, I am sure time is running out.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I will be very brief. It is important that we are specific, as you have guided and I quote:

“250.   (1) The Auditor-General shall—

  1. audit the accounts of—

(i) State organs, State institutions, provincial

administration and local authorities; and

(ii) institutions financed from public funds;”

Madam Speaker, Clause 2 talks about how the Auditor General should not be subject to control by any authority. Currently, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has private audit firms such as PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC), Grant Thornton and others that have been contracted to do some audits regarding some arrears of the contract.

Madam Speaker, where are these audit reports going to go because, by procedure, all the audit reports from the Auditor General end up at this institution which provides an oversight function on the Executive. Where will this report go after these private audit firms conclude their work?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I do get the concern. The hon Member for Shiwang’andu’s final question was: Where will this report go after these private audit firms conclude their work? He said the reports should come here also to be scrutinised. I was going to say that we can have more time for this, but I will give an answer for now.

Madam, I think it is important not to just cite one piece of legislation; one or two Articles, in the Constitution. We have to also look at the Acts that provide for that office. That is why I am saying I will have to read for myself, but I am informed that the Auditor-General has authority to contract.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: That is not what the law says.

The Vice-President: However, remember that that is not the only piece of legislation that you have cited. Madam Speaker, I am glad that the hon. Member is listening. That is why I have said we can come back and even give more information and be specific.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

The Vice-President: Madam, I am aware, honestly, that the Auditor-General has the authority to sub-contract. I think the hon. Member’s concern was about where the report is going. When these private sub-contracted auditors audit, their report goes to the Auditor-General…

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: …that finally forms –

Hon. PF Member interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The Vice-President:  I thought I am talking.

Madam Speaker: Let us allow Her Honour to respond.

The Vice-President: The hon. Member must listen.

Madam Speaker: Order, order! Stop the clock.

Hon. Members, let us allow Her Honour the Vice-President to answer the questions. If you are not clear, you make a follow-up question, but to interject while Her Honour the Vice-President is on the Floor, I think, is in total breach of our Standing Orders. So, let us observe order please!

May Her Honour the Vice-President continue.

Mr Mabeta: Hammer, hammer!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I will come and apologise if it is not a fact that the Auditor-General has authority to sub-contract.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I said whoever is sub-contracted reports to the Auditor-General and that forms part of the Auditor-Generals final report. Therefore, that comes to this House as the Auditor-Generals’ Report. I know hon. Members, that here, there are issues in the Auditor-General’s Report. If you want us to also be audited by the Auditor-General, it is too early. We can only be found wanting through whistle blowing.


The Vice-President: Let me tell you, let me finish.

Madam Speaker, the Auditor-General has not yet audited our time. You can wait for us also. When the audit –


The Vice-President: But this is the truth. When the 2022 report is out, you are likely not to appear.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: If we are doing anything wrong, that is when that will be revealed.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: So, the issue of the Auditor-Generals’ authority is there in the law and regarding the hon. Member’s concern of where it will go, it goes to the one who contracted. The one who contracted will make it part of the report that comes here.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi(Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for those answers. The people of Bwana Mkubwa again asked me to come and ask a question on behalf of the people of Kaloko. Last year, there were floods in Kaloko and part of Munkulungwe. The Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) did visit the area. However, we only received about 100 iron sheets and so, the people would like to find out what the position of the DMMU concerning coming to finish up that pledge is.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa for that question and bringing to our attention the situation in Kaloko. We are still following up the situation in Kakolo. Since he has brought that to our attention, we will start learning how the people of Kaloko found themselves there. I think that is important and we will look at their plight.

Madam Speaker, I want to use this opportunity to say when people are resettled in a place and they are compensated, let us help them to construct some permanent structures. Otherwise, it becomes very difficult for DMMU to do that on its own. Even you hon. Members, you see the kind of infrastructure or houses that people are putting up, and you know they will not withstand the pressure of bad weather or climate. Therefore, it is important that we help them to settle. I am aware of what happened and how people found themselves there. However, we are committed to helping them and we are working as fast as we can in our preparedness.

Madam, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is working very quickly to ensure that we get the resources we need as part of our preparedness for what may happen; things that we do not know, including where things have already happened and we need to respond. So, we will continue to respond. I think you and I discussed. We should find out what we should do for them because they will go and put the roofing sheets in the same way even this year and so, even the 100 sheets that we gave will be blown off. I think we have to find some solution.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chaatila(Moomba): Madam Speaker, we still have some farmers who supplied maize to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) and they have not been paid for that. With the onset of rains, there is a bit of anxiety within our farmers. When are these farmers going to be paid so that they can continue with their farming business?

Hon. PF Members: Ema questions aya!

Mr Mabeta: Quality!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Moomba. I think every question is of quality. It depends on what the person really wants to find out. For me, I take every question very seriously. Indeed, my response may not be satisfying, but it has to be truthful. Truthful may not be fact also because I also rely on information.

Madam Speaker, the issue of farmers being paid comes almost every week. There is a scenario that I have picked. The hon. Minister of Agriculture is here, he can say no to this if it is not the case. The scenario is that in most of our constituencies, the targeted maize was procured and payment for it was made. However, the procurement has gone beyond because people still remained with the produce. As this produce is being collected, the payments keep going on although I know that at every point, there are people who have not yet been paid. However, I am assured, and I am assuring the House that this money is with the FRA. It must pay the people. Hon. Members, I pray that when you come next time, just to help all of us, you will come and tell us that you have members who delivered maize in August and they are not paid. Then, we will follow it up because the payment is for those who supplied late. As you supply, you get paid but you cannot be paid in one or two weeks after supplying. You know the procedures that we keep talking about. However, as we sit here, the FRA has money to pay for those who have already delivered their produce to FRA.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, I want to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President if the House will take it that the Auditor-General put up a tender for this contract and Grand Thornton responded to it.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, generally, I would not know exact how they did it but, whichever way, if they awarded that contract to people and they did that within the law,then there is no problem. As I sit here, I do not know whether the Auditor-General put up an open tender, selective tender or it was single sourcing. All those processes are provided for within the law but, I cannot tell the hon. Member for Lukashya which method was use exactly. However, it is my prayer that they went by it, lawfully.

Madam Speaker, we believe that whoever does the audit must produce a truthful audit report. It should not bother us. I hope that it is the procedure they are worried about. Otherwise, the result will still be the same result.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President:Madam Speaker,I am sure the hon. Member for Mporokoso, Leader of Government Business, and the incoming President …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … of the Patriotic Front (PF) is aware of the procedure.


The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, it is very difficult to campaign for them here because we do not know who is who, and they are all our relatives. I think if he has concerns over the issue of procedure, he knows exactly which way to go, especially that he is a lawyer. As for us, we think they went the right way. Indeed, I am glad he is talking about procedure. He should get it in the minds of his colleagues that it is not wrong to sub-contract if the procedure is right.

Mr Mundubile: Correct!

The Vice-President: I am happy the lawyer there is saying that it is normal to sub-contract.


The Vice-President: Ah! You are changing your mind.


The Vice-President: It is normal to sub-contract.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, the people of Kalabo are somehow troubled following the poor deployment of recruited teachers. There are about twenty schools which have not been benefited from the deployment of the newly recruited teachers. Is the Government planning to undertake a review to come up with what led to some schools in Kalabo District and other places not receiving teachers from the 30,000 recruited teachers?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the concern of the hon. Member is that twenty schools in his constituency did not benefit from the deployment of teachers who were recruited. He therefore, wants to know when the Government will do a review over the same issue. I think the ministry together with the Teaching Service Commission that look at the conditions of the deployment of teachers are probably following it up. I think the recruitment was decentralisation and the number of teachers to be deployed was given. I cannot give the real answers as to why these twenty schools did not benefit from that recruitment. In fact, it would be very good for the hon. Member to check with the provincial, district and the, the constituency offices to follow that issue up. That initiative was meant to benefit all of us, equitably.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:Hon. Member for Petauke Central.

Mr J. E. Bandawas not available.

Madam Speaker:It appears the hon. Member for Petauke Central is not available. So, we will go to the next Independent hon. Member.

Mr Kandafula (Serenje): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for according me this opportunity to ask a questionon the recruitment of teachers, on behalf of the humble people of Serenje,

Madam Speaker, as you are aware, teachers keep on upgrading themselves from primary to secondary school teaching. Now, teachers who did direct secondary school teaching are not benefiting. Year in, year out, some of the teachers who have upgraded themselves have been promoted to teach in secondary schools. This means that they are leaving many vacancies at primary level. What measure is the Government undertaking to accommodate those who did direct secondary school teaching?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is asking when it is already time up.


The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am so sorry. Even though I missed his question, I will try to respond.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member talked about those who have direct entries from colleges and universities with degrees. Those have different entries unless, something happened in the ministry since I left many years ago. The entry points of certificate, degree and diploma holders must be different. The Government is taking care of that because we have realised that some people, especially those who upgrade themselves particularly, after they are already in the system end up being disadvantaged. The Government has allocated resources in the 2023 Budget towards the upgrade of people who are working under the wrong scales or notches. The Government is aware about those who have been stuck in the system, those who are not promoted even after they get their degrees. The Government is working on that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Unfortunately, that sees us to the end of that session. There are so many indications of hon. Members wishing to ask questions, but we cannot extend the time because we have all these Votes on the Estimates of Expenditure that we need to consider. So, we will move to the next item.




90. Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi)asked the Minister of Health:

(a)        whether the Government has any plans to construct a mortuary at Lundazi General Hospital in Lundazi District;

(b)        if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

(c)        if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, before I respond to the question, allow me to state that the hospital being referred to is not, in fact, a general hospital which is a Level II Hospital, but instead, a district hospital which we refer to as first level hospital.

Madam, I inform the House that the Government has plans to construct a mortuary at Lundazi District Hospital in Lundazi District. The Government has already constructed a mortuary unit at Lundazi District Hospital. As stated, the Government has already constructed a mortuary unit at Lundazi District Hospital. Therefore, part c)of the questionfalls off.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, can we have order in the House! There are so many consultations that are ongoing. If you are consulting, do that quietly.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, right now at Lundazi District Hospital, there is no mortuary. When someone dies, we use either an ox cart or we hire a motor bike to transfer the dead body to where there is a mortuary, 6 km away. The building which was reserved for a mortuary is being used as a mothers’ shelter for women who are expecting. Is it possible for a mortuary to be built since the building which was reserved for that is being used by pregnant mothers?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, indeed, the situation is as put by the hon. Member of Parliament except to say that this year in June, we fixed the mortuary at the old hospital, which was not working. That mortuary occupies four to six bodies and that is the one people are currently using, and it is, indeed, 6 km away from the new district hospital.

Madam Speaker, regarding the new district hospital, unfortunately, that hospital was opened in 2020, before the mortuary unit was completed. So, the New Dawn Government is looking at terminating the contract with the contractor for works under Phase III at the hospital. As you know, most constructors never did things according to what was agreed, so, we are looking at that. In the meantime, the works at the hospital under Phase III are over 80 per cent. We are still remaining with a few works to complete, and this also includes procuring equipment.

Madam Speaker, the hospital management has allowed a situation in which mothers are using the space meant for a mortuary as a mothers’ shelter and the hon. Member of Parliament for Lundazi is now saying that we should turn the mortuary into a mothers’ shelter. I am also aware that there are sentiments on the ground to the effect that a mortuary is being used as a mothers’ shelter. Maybe, it would not be a very good idea to turn the mortuary into a mothers’ shelter. We will proceed as planned by the Government, to the effect that we will complete the process of procuring the first unit which is already underway. I thank the hon. Member for agreeing to use part of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) under her district for that. Then the Government, through the ministry, will proceed to get the second unit so that we have two units. Hopefully, by early 2023, we should have done that.

Madam Speaker, the other issue that has come out from the hon. Member’s question is the need for a mothers’ shelter. Working with the hon. Member of Parliament and looking at the Government or the Ministry of Health’s various resources, including the CDF, we can sit down and see how we can construct a mothers’ shelter next year. So, turning a mortuary into a mothers’ shelter would not be a good idea this case.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, from the hon. Minister’s explanation, clearly, she has indicated that the Government will procure a mortuary unit for the new Lundazi District Hospitalearly next year, according to her approximation. Is she in a position to be specific so that the people of Lundazi should be expectant? Which month early next year? Will this unit be delivered to the people of Lundazi in the first quarter, second quarter or end of the year?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, maybe, the hon. Member did not hear me very correctly. Let me repeat that, in fact, the procurement of the unit is already underway, and it will be procured through the local council, whom we are working with. So, the procurement process is being done through the local council. The one I was talking about is the second unit. So, basically, the opening of the mortuary can be done any time, even maybe at end of this year. However, I said that we are working with the council to see if we can procure the second unit of the mortuary,hopefully in the first quarter of 2023, so that they can be two and there is one at the old hospital.

Madam Speaker, I think the challenge is the 6 km distance, though in town it is not a long distance. However, in rural areas, there is the issue of transport. So, unless we develop faster so that there is transport, then, that 6 km distance is nothing. However, I said that we have already started procuring the mortuary unit, and we are working with the council. The council is already processing the procurement and we are not procuring it through the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) or other means. It is being done by the council. So, working together with the council, we will procure the second mortuary unit hopefully in the first quarterof next year.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, the last time the question came on the Floor of the House, I followed up the matter at the ministry and it confirmed that it had already procured ten mortuary units, which it was going to distribute to various districts. The hon. Minister together with her Permanent Secretary (PS), Mr Mwanza,assured me that Lundazi had already been allocated a unit. I am wondering why we are moving from getting the mortuary unit from the ministry to talking about the one we are buying using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, that is actually a very good reminder. It is true and hon. Members may recall that in the 2022 Budget, there was a provision for the procurement of equipment, and the ministry went ahead and procured some mortuary units though I cannot remember the number.

The allocation of the same will depend on those hon. Members of Parliament who have engaged the ministry. I know that the relevant department does keep records. So, when the time comes, maybe, Lundazi will be one of those to receive. So, she is right to that extent, except that normally, when we get things, such as the 100 ambulances, not all districts may be covered. There are156 constituencies or 116 districts, yet the first phase of the ambulances will only be 100. Quite a number of Members of Parliament make these requests. So, normally it is those that have formerly written to the ministry and brought their issues that may get, apart from the Provincial Health Directors who also write to request and then we allocate ambulances accordingly. So, it would be possible that Lundazi may, in addition, get a unit from the ministry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.





VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K275,248,633)

(Consideration resumed)

The Chairperson: Order!

TheMinister of Mines and Minerals Development(Mr Kabuswe): Madam Chairperson, before adjournment yesterday, I was about to conclude my response. I will try to conclude my submission in the few minutes remaining.

Madam, I ended by saying that our ministry is actually today, going to sign or launch the new Mines and Minerals Policy that will guide the way we are going to transact in as far as delivering to our people is concerned in the mining sector.

Madam Chairperson, that is how this Government is proceeding. I know that many of our contributors yesterday raised a host of issues concerned with how the ministry is driving the mineral sector.

Madam, in conclusion, let say that most of the issues that were raised are going to be addressed through the Mines and Minerals Policy that we are launching today. If the mining policy requires that we put in legislation,it will be done because, as a ministry, we are already tinkering with the Mines and Minerals Development Act.  


The Chairperson:Order!

Hon. Member for Chama South, I think the noise is too much. We want to make progress. Just lower your voices.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mr Kabuswe: I assure the nation. One of the issues that have been very noisy is how the people of Zambia can get business from mining entities. We are discussing with line ministries such as the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, on how we are going to come up with a policy and legislation that will compel the promotion of local content. In other words, we are talking about the promotion of Zambians participating in the mining value chain. This is a serious matter. I want to assure the people of Zambia that going forward, they will be getting businesses from mining companies who have not been giving them businesses because we are going to legislate, if that is what it will require.

Madam, I do not want to pre-empt that discussion because we are putting finality to the document that we want to come up with, together with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, so that the people of Zambia can get business from the mining entity.

I thank you, Madam.

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K275,248,633)

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2138 – Mines Technical Services. I note an increase –

The Chairperson: What page is that, Mr Mwila?

Mr Mwila: Madam, it is on page 158, Programme 2138 – Mines Technical Services – Sub-Programme:8001– Mines Development Services. The budget has increased from K460,000 to K52.1 million. I note that this is dealing with artisanal and small-scale miners. So, I want to findout what exactly will be done to spend the allocation of K52 million to the artisanal and small-scale miners?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, what exactly will be done is in the document which we have produced on the formalisation of artisanal and small-scale miners. So, this is a block figure that has been allocated to that line. However, we have a document that we presented to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on the details of how we are going to administer the formulisation of artisanal and small-scale miners.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the good people of Lubansenshi this opportunity to seek a clarification from the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

Madam, I seek clarification on page 151, Sub-Programme:9002 – Mines Safety and Occupation Health. The hon. Minister will agree with me that whatever targets that we may put in place to achieve the proposed 3 million tonnes of copper productionin ten years,is really anchored on human capital. So, the ministry has a mammoth task to ensure that safety in all the mines is guaranteed as you may be aware that Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) and other mines have a bad record of accidents. 

Madam Chairperson, again, on this allocation for 2023, there is also a project that is a historical issue which the Government is going to implement using the same money. This means the safety of the workers in these mines is not guaranteed. Is the hon. Minister able to consider increasing the allocation for Vote 9002, so that we can have enough money to do proper monitoring and guarantee the safety of the workers who we are intending to give us 3 million metric tonnes in the next ten years?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, indeed, the safety of human capital in the mines is priority number one. That is why the Mines Safety Department through its director has got the power to shut down a mine when the safety of the employees is compromised. Money is never enough, but we have slightly increased this allocation for the Mine Safety and Occupational Health Department because we also have the Mines and Minerals Commission coming and one of the issues it is going to look at is the issue of safety.

Madam, I assure you, the hon. Member and the nation that our ministry takes the health and safety of the miners seriously. We do not care how much productivity a mine can have. What is important is for our people to be kept safe. That is why one of the mottos you find in mining companies is “before you do it, make it safe and then do it”. This one is critical and crucial to us. We have to make sure our people are safe before they go underground or even into surface mines.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2139 – Petroleum Exploration – K 850,000. K 1,058,237 was allocated in 2021 towards this activity and this year K1,255,790 was allocated, but next year, there is a reduction in the allocation towards petroleum exploration. It is indicating that it will only get K850,000. Yesterday, the Member of Parliament for Mufumbwe raised a question regarding oil, gas and drilling. Why is there a reduction to this very important programme that is supposed to help us to know how much petroleum deposits we have?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, this provision caters for the monitoring of petroleum activities. Again, I will refer you to the Mines and Minerals Commission because when it comes, some of the activities that would have been done by the current staff will be under the commission. As I said yesterday, the Mines and Minerals Commission will be present everywhere. That is the vision. This means that there will be fewer movements because they will be stationed where the activities are taking place. So, this could actually be attributed to the reduction that we are projecting.


Madam, if you look at the 2022 Budget and compare it to the previous one, you will see that there is an increase, but because we are progressing like that, the normal way of doing things is going to change because of this commission that is coming.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2110, Sub-Programme 01, there is a programme marked “number of small-scale mines to be inspected”. This year, the Government targeted to inspect 724 small-scale mines, but it has only managed to inspect 250. Next year, the hon. Minister is targeting 580, which is below the target for this year. Does the hon. Minister have the resources, team or expertise to help him meet this target considering that he has struggled this year to meet his target?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, I will refer to the Mines and Minerals Commission. That is the answer to all these things. The capacity to inspect was hampered by the fact that we had staff who had no capacity to go all over and inspect. This is why even before we came up with the Mines and Minerals Commission, we did a document on formalisation which includes inspecting these small-scale and artisanal miners.

Madam, for us, the Mines and Minerals Commission is a gamechanger when it comes to checking and inspecting what is happening around the mining sector.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 30 – (Zambia Correctional Service – K 899,016,340)

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me an opportunity to present before this august House the policy statement on the 2023 budget estimates for Vote 30 – Zambia Correctional Service.

Madam, the Zambia Correctional Service is established under Article 193 of the Republic Constitution Amendment Act No. 2 of 2016 and is governed by the Correctional Service Act No. 37 of 2021. The service is mandated to manage, regulate and ensure the security of all prisons and correctional centres across the country. Further, the service offers correctional and rehabilitation programmes to inmates. The mission statement of the Zambia Correctional Service is:

“to provide humane custody and correctional services for maintaining community safety and the reformation of inmates.”

Madam Chairperson, the performance of the Zambia Correctional Service in the first half of 2022 was generally satisfactory. During the period under review, the average inmate population in the country was 24,000 against the holding capacity of 9,150 translating into an over population of 162 per cent. This situation has exerted pressure on the existing correctional facilities.

Madam, despite overcrowding correctional facilities, inmates were being provided with at least three meals per day. The service also ensured timely treatment of inmates in order to improve their health and reduce further morbidity in correctional centres. Further, all Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) positive inmates are on antiretroviral therapy.


Madam Chairperson, under rehabilitation services, the service continued facilitating the enrolment of inmates in adult education and vocational skills. So far, 25 percent of inmates accessed training in trade skills and received certification by Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA) and Examination Council of Zambia (ECZ). Further, two industrial workshops, one in Kabwe and another one in Livingstone were recapitalised.

Madam Chairperson, the service is instrumental in ensuring discharged inmates are socially integrated and adapting to the communities. To this effect, 40 per cent of discharged inmates were monitored and tracked in order to facilitate community re-entryand effective reintegration in the mainstream society.

Challenges Faced

Madam Chairperson, during the implementation of the 2022 Budget, the service experienced a number of challenges which among others include:

  1. congestion in correctional facilities due to the ever-increasing inmate population;
  2. low staffing levels thus compromising security in correctional facilities;
  3. inadequate starter packs for discharged inmates with relevant skills:
  4. inadequate office equipment and furniture;
  5. accumulation of arrears for other personnel emoluments and goods and services; andinadequate modern industrial equipment.

2023 Budget Hiighlights

Madam Chairperson, the proposed 2023 Budget is K899,016,340compared to K628,924,130 Budget of 2022, representing 42.9 percent. The increase is a clear demonstration that the New Dawn Administration is determined to accord inmates with humane custody.

Madam Chairperson, the total proposed allocation of K899,016,340is broken down under the different programmes as follows:

  1. custodial services – K513,545,816;
  2. rehabilitation services –K145,314,470;
  3. social reintegration –K29,188,914;
  4. correctional services training –K62,306,089; and
  5. management and support services – K148,661,051.

Madam Chairperson, the service shall channel resources towards inmates’ adult literacy and vocational training which encompasses literacy, formal education and vocational skills training for inmates, thereby, contributing significantly to their rehabilitation and the provision of aftercare and extension services to facilitate community re-entry, re-integration and post discharge support to ex-inmates.

Further, the service will focus on facilitating the delivery of efficient and effective Zambia Correctional Service to enhance accountability and prudent utilisation of resources. The service will improve human resource development and management, as well as strengthen planning, budgeting, and financial management systems.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, the Zambia Correctional Service will execute its mandate and contribute to internal security through the provision of astute correctional services.

Madam Chairperson, I, therefore, ask the hon. Members of this august House to favourably consider the proposed allocation for Zambia Correctional Service.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.   

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for according the good people of Mangango to contribute to the debate on the proposed 2023 Budget for the Zambia Correctional Service.

Madam Chairperson, I am compelled to do so because I happened to house one of the training schools in my constituency at Nyango.  I fully support this proposed Budget because I know that from now onwards, no more irregularities will be experienced in the Zambia Correctional Service.

Madam Chairperson, the 42 per cent increment in this particular proposed 2023 Budget for the Zambia Correctional Service,which we are now debating, is a very goodand it can bring massive changes in the correctional service, like human resource development.

Madam Chairperson, it is very important to take our human resource in the correctional service for proper and further development so that we are able to achieve the main objectives of the correctional service.

Madam Chairperson, I also support this particular Budget because I need to see proper infrastructure for the correctional facilities, so that we offer a proper serviceto the people as the New Dawn Government. People should be put in correctional facilities that are habitable. These facilities must be good such that even when one is undergoing rehabilitation, he or she must be able to change as expected and not as it was in the previous regime, where many people were put in one room, using buckets for toilets.

Madam Chairperson, I want to urge the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security that we need to see change in the New Dawn Government in that area because we are human beings. There is no one who will say that he or she will never be in the correctional facility. All of us can go to the correctionalfacility because no one is innocent. Even those on your left, Madam Chairperson, can go there. Even us on the right side, can go there. This means that it is our time to make those places habitable for human beings.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to support this increment in this particular 2023 Budget because we need to see in the New Dawn Government, as we have never seen before, a proper kind of attention as regards to medical facilities and meals in prisons.

Madam Chairperson, as we promised our people, we will not want to see somebody coming from a correctional service facility in a malnourished state as it has been in the past. This will not happen anymore because the New Dawn Government is here to serve the people, and the people, it shall serve.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to support this very good Budget because I need to see good road network leading to these correctional facilities. It is not good to see a situation where from the main road to a correctional facility, the road is impassable. We need to see well-maintained proper roads leading to those facilities so that even people using small cars can visit their people.

Madam Chairperson, I fully support this Budget because Iknow that salaries and wages are within this Budget. We want to maintain our employees in the correctional service better than they were maintained during the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. We want our people well-motivated –

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040hours to 1100 hours.



Mr Mwene: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to continue debating.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to bring it to the attention of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, on a very serious note, that my main interest in supporting this increment of the Zambia Correctional Service’s Budget is because I am interested in two things. Firstly, it is very imperative that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security takes note that the infrastructure in Nyengo was left by the South West Africa People’s Organisation (SWAPO) so I am interested in the increment in this budget because I expect a share of state-of-the-art infrastructure for the Zambia Correctional Service in Nyengo.

Madam Chairperson, my other interest in the increment in this budget is that, for the first time, – I congratulate the hon. Minister for publicly advertising the recruitment of the Zambia Correctional Service recruits.

Hon. UPND Members: hear, hear!

Mr Mwene: This never happened in the past ten years of the Patriotic Front (PF’s) regime where applications were being carried under the armpits and taken to PF members, and people would be recruited privately. For the first time under the New Dawn Government, the recruitment has happened and change has come.

Madam Chairperson, in Mangango Constituency, Kaoma District or the Western Province in general, we were in the past ten years almost denied recruitment in the Zambia Correctional Service. I support this budget and I know that some of the youths from my constituency and province, and the other three provinces that were being denied recruitment, will also be recruited this year because that is the only way the people in my constituency will benefit. How will they benefit if they cannot be employed by the Zambia Correctional Service, which is in their backyard? If there are any irregularities that may be perpetrated by some officials or officers, the hon. Minister should deal with that within the ministry. The recruitment process countrywide should now be fair, not the way we were marginalised by the PF Government, the previous Government.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwene: Madam Chairperson, I will not say much because I might jeopardise all my very important interesting points that I have arrayed to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. However, I need state-of-the art infrastructure and when that infrastructure is there, I know that my people will also be housed in it because they will also be among the recruits.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, I have taken note of the K899 million that has been requested for approval by this august House. As Member of Parliament for the good people of Kamfinsa Constituency that currently hosts one of the biggest correctional centres, I am obviously in full support of allocating more resources to this very important institution. May I also pay tribute to the work that was done by the previous Government …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kang’ombe:… in as far as constructing houses for correctional service officers at Kamfinsa Correctional Service. As you approach the correctional facility, on your right, there are very beautiful houses that were built. Of course, they are not adequate and, obviously through the K899 million, my hope is that we will continue providing more and better facilities for the people.

Madam Chairperson, as we consider this allocation that has been requested, you are aware that not everything can be done using this money. One of the things that I personally did as Member of Parliament is that I made a request that my office, working with the Constituency Development Fund Committee, avails some resources from the CDF towards basic things. Now, there are few basic things that we cannot wait for the Central Government to do. For instance, we are now calling it a correctional service, meaning we need to train people and give them skills so that when they come out of the facility, they have the ability to actually contribute to society.

Madam Chairperson, it is now one year since we had the elections. I have been serving as Member of Parliament since last year, and I have not been given an opportunity to interact with the leadership at the correctional facility despite writing to them, and indicating to them that there are public funds which the facility can utilise. I am also aware, and I hope that the hon. Minister has been briefed, that we have had water challenges at Kamfinsa Correctional Service. Working with the private sector and the community, we provided a borehole and a water tank in the last couple of years before I even assumed the office of Member of Parliament. When an offer is made available to supplement what the Central Government is doing, it is always important that at the local level, supplementary funding is made available.

So, Madam Chairperson, the point I want to emphasise, and this is for the attention of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, is that we will give him the K899 million that he has requested for, but there is also money available under the CDF. The Member of Parliament is saying we can improve water supply to the correctional service, but the Member of Parliament must have an opportunity to know the challenges beyond what we already know. Using the CDF that we have been allocated, we have also said that we can replace the old water pumps that feed water to the workers compound. Those are things that we are trying to undertake at the local level, in order to support what the Government is doing.

Madam Chairperson, that correctional facility is for the people of Zambia and because it is theirs, we have to provide a conducive environment to achieve the objectives of a correctional service. So, in 2022, apart from the water pump that we are going to replace at Kamfinsa Correctional Service, we could have done more but if the Member of Parliament cannot be allowed access to a public facility such as a correctional service, even after making a request through writing, what do you expect him to do. The Member of Parliament will focus on other needs in the community.

Madam Chairperson, the point I am making is that there are three ways of funding a correctional service. Firstly, it is what we are doing today, giving money to the correctional service. Secondly, we can go to the business community the way we have done. I remember when I was Mayor and my colleague was the District Commissioner, every month there was always an activity to supplement what they would get from the Central Government. That is the second way of funding a correctional service. The third funding is what we have now, the CDF.

Madam Chairperson, whether we like it or not, hon. Members of Parliament sit on the CDF Committee. So, when we are picking priorities and the hon. Member of Parliament is told that he or she cannot access the facility; do we expect the hon. Member of Parliament to allocate more resources to that facility? The hon. Members of Parliament will say that they will take money to the community where they are welcomed and treated as a very important and key stakeholder in the development process of supporting these facilities.

Madam Chairperson, we want to see a modernised Zambia Correctional Service. We want to see a facility that is able to do farming and give skills to inmates. We want a correctional service that is able to produce men and women that can come back into society in line with the hon. Minister’s policy statement. I was paying attention to what the hon. Minister was saying. He was basically saying that we should change the mindset of the people who were once convicted. Let us take them back into society and make them productive citizens.

However, Madam, as long as we do not give resources to these very important facilities, we will not be able to achieve everything that has to be achieved. I know K899 million is a milestone, but we can still do more. We can still do more at the local level and with co-operating partners. I think some of us are in a very privileged position to know who can help us improve these facilities.

Madam Chairperson, I have given this scenario because it is common in all our cities and in all the constituencies where we have correctional facilities. Therefore, the Government must not just look at one avenue of funding. I think that there are benchmarking steps that we can take. I hope that the Zambia Correctional Service is benchmarking and consulting other countries where steps are being taken to modernise the facilities. When our time is up,there will be other leaders in place. We should be able to look back and say that we did the right thing. We should be able to say that we improved the service, gave skills to inmates and integrated them back into society.

Madam Chairperson, I support the allocation that the hon. Minister has requested. Of course, I would have loved the hon. Minister to ask for more money so that we do more in our respective correctional facilities. The people of Kamfinsa Constituency have spoken.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Ms Kasune (Keembe): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add the voice of the people of Keembe and, indeed, the whole nation by virtue of being the Government Deputy Chief Whip.

Madam, in supporting the Vote for the Zambia Correctional Service, I just want to take note of a few things that have always touched my heart. I want to congratulate His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, through his messenger, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, and the budget presented to us by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu. So, to the New Dawn Government, I say, “Job well done. “

Madam Chairperson, one of the key issues that I think, as a mother, grandmother, as a law maker and all Zambians should be concerned about is the issue of circumstantial children. This issue should break our hearts. It brings to me the memory of my late sister, the former hon. Member of Parliament for Katuba, Hon. Patricia Mwashingwele, who was really a champion of such issues. She raised the voices of children of circumstantial situations in our correctional facilities.

Madam, it is heartbreaking to note that mothers who have children and end up on the wrong side of the law are kept in prison for years. In some situations, you would find mothers with children in prison for three or five years. It can vary. Some mothers even give birth while in the correctional facility. I think if there is anything that I would urge our able hon. Minister, it is to ensure that we have a deliberate policy to ensure that no child should have to go through such a condition because of the fault of their parents. It is not a fault of the children. Therefore, as we delve into the details of the budget, I want to see if we have worked on this issue.

Madam Chairperson, secondly, may I add the issue of the headquarters. Many defence services are actually housed here in Lusaka. However, this is not the reality for the Zambia Correctional Service, which remains headquartered in Kabwe. The rationale in the past was that because of the maximum prison in Kabwe, hence the need to have the headquarters in Kabwe. However, we are talking of 2022 and we know that there are many maximum prisons around the country.

Madam Chairperson, in this regard, it becomes imperative that the head offices of the Zambia Correctional Service are also housed here in the capital city for the sake of business and, indeed, to save on the expenses for the Zambia Correctional Service. I think this will go a long way to also help with the relocation of inmates.

Madam, there was an organisation that we were part of as hon. Members of Parliament in the tenure of 2016. We were advocating for funds to relocate someone has paid their dues. They have corrected and now they have become part of the well needed citizens in our country. You would find that many of them were actually marooned in the places where they once served as prisoners. 

Madam Chairperson, I think every human being deserves a second chance. As already alluded to by some speakers, we all know that anyone can end up in the correctional facility at any time, especially for us politicians, whether innocent or not, the chances are even higher for us than for ordinary citizens out there. Hence, we need to advocate for better policies when it comes to correctional services.

Madam Chairperson, the third point I want to add is the overcrowding in our prison services. As the hon. Minister was reading, he said that the population of inmates in the country is about 24,000, against the actual capacity of 9,000. This actually translates into 162 per cent over the capacity that is there. I think this is really not conducive. We all know that in today’s world, we are living in a world where even inmates should be given human rights. They need to have dignity while they are serving in these correctional facilities. Therefore, we have come to the idea that it is a place for correction and not necessary a sentence forever in themselves.

Madam Chairperson, human beings are able to change, if there is one thing that is constant. I am an hon. Member of Parliament who has unapologetically been public about my own Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) status. I shared this in my 2016 Maiden Speech as someone who has lived HIV positive since 1997. I stand here with recommendation and appreciation of the fact that inmates who are HIV positive do have access to Anti-Retroviral (ARV) drugs. At the end of the day, as I have already said, every human being deserves the life and the dignity their country can offer them. It is in this vein that I want to say thank you to the Zambia Correctional Services. This issue has to be combined with the issue of decongesting correctional services, especially for people living with HIV and many other conditions that I may not have elaborated on. It becomes important that they are actually given a right space and food. As it has been noted, they are actually given three meals a day.

Madam Chairperson, with these few words, therefore, let me touch on the fact that there have been cases when we have visited the correctional facilities and found that someone stole a cob of maize or a cell phone and now they are in the correctional facility waiting for their pronouncement. This may drag on maybe for a year or over a year. It does not make sense because we know that there are many white-collar crimes by people do not end up in correctional services. I am not trying to endorse theft, especially petty thieving, but having young people, in particular women, in prison cells for years because one stole a cell phone. I think is unacceptable.

Madam, in trying to commend the work of the New Dawn Government, let me also speak to the fact that there was an initiative spearheaded by our very own hon. Minister of Information and Media, Hon. Kasanda, in working with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Hon. Mwiimbu.In trying to commend the work of the New Dawn Government, I also want to state that there was an initiative spearheaded by our very own hon. Minister of Information and Media, Ms Kasanda, working with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Mr Mwiimbu where inmateswere given beddings as well as beds and mattresses. We know very well that many inmates did not have beddings, and so, the ones that were given through this initiative, which have really gone a long way in alleviating their discomfort.

Madam, some of us who visited the current President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, when he was in detention, were really shocked to see how inmates sleep. So, we say thank you, and kudos to the hon. Minister of Information and Media, and, indeed, our own hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

With these few words, I support the Vote for the Zambia Correctional Service.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya (Mansa Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for the opportunity to share my perspective on this very important Vote.

Madam Chairperson, in any environment where there is overcrowding, know that that is a recipe for public health challenges. It is very important that when you talk about health for people in correctional facilities, you look beyond Human Immunodeficiency Viruses (HIV). I must state that the ministry’s programme in ensuring that the health of the people in correctional services is enhanced, must begin from promoting good health. You must prevent diseases before you talk about treating the diseases, and of course, it must continue in the continuum with rehabilitation and palliative care.

Madam, I would urge the hon. Minister, as he speaks about the cost centre on Human Immunodeficiency Virus Infection and Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (HIV/AIDS) services, to broaden it. Let us not talk about HIV only, but also about health promotion and addressing the social determinants of health in our correctional facilities. These will include water, sanitation and nutrition.

Madam Chairperson, in the era we are living in, where we have experienced pandemics such as the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), it is possible to have epidemics within the correctional facilities. One factor that fuels the spread of epidemics is just congestion. So, it is extremely important that we prevent it because it would be more costly to combat an epidemic in a congested place.

I salute the hon. Minister for allocating resources to the HIV/AIDs programme. Today, HIV/AIDS is no longer a death sentence. It is a chronic, but manageable condition. Our colleagues in correctional facilities deserve the same as everybody else. Therefore, we should avoid, at all costs, running out of Antiretrovirals(ARVs) in correctional facilities. Once ARVs run out, the challenge that comes in is that the Cluster of differentiation (CD4) Count lowers because the virus replicates. So, when the CD4 Count lowers, it means that they are now predisposed to all sorts of diseases. As those diseases break out, then they will spread to the rest of the inmates. Tuberculosis (TB) is one of them. So, once ARVs run out in the correctional facility, just know that the CD4 of the people who are on ARVs will go down and their viral load will go up, and TB is one potential problem, and once it breaks out, it will not only affect those who are HIV positive, but even those who are just in that facility.

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude, I want to emphasise and lobby for a comprehensive public health programme in Zambia correctional facilities. It should look at the space proportionate to the number of inmates. It should also look at determinants of health such as water and sanitation. It should also look at health promotion activities. We should allocate money for health promotion and prevention activities.We should also ensure that our surveillance is heightened because that is a place where potentially, epidemics can spread very quickly with potential to lose lives and also to be a focus from where epidemics can spread to the rest of the country.

So, I stand just to lobby for a strong public health programme in the Zambia Correctional Services.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I want to appreciate the contributions of Hon. Mwene, Hon. Kasune and Hon. Dr Chilufya for their passion to the plight of our unfortunate members of the public who have found themselves confined in prison facilities.


I want to comment on the contributions of Hon. Dr Chilufya, which I appreciate so much. Hon. Dr Chilufya, your contributions are apt. All of us must take note that when prisoners who are under our custody are afflicted with various diseases, eventually, those who are close to the prisoners get affected. If a prisoner gets Human Immunodeficiency Viruses (HIV)in prison, and is laterreleased, he/she will transmit the virus to the partner, if there is no comprehensive education pertaining to health matters. So, it is our responsibility, as custodians of our unfortunate colleagues, to ensure that we provide comprehensive health education and adequate health services tothem.

Madam, I thank Hon. Dr Chilufya for those thoughts, which he has indicated and I assure himthat we shall take those thoughts onboard.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to assure my hon. Colleague, Hon. Kang’ombe, that he is a leader in Government. He is justserving under a different wing of Government,which is the Legislature. He has a right as anhon. Member of Parliament that houses Kamfinsa Correctional Facility, to visit and interact with the heads of that institution.I appreciate the offers you have made on behalf of the correctional facility, for the financial support. I urge my hon. Colleagues who are heading the facility to receive him with open arms as he interacts with them and offer the requisite services.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to comment on the issues that have been raised by my sister Hon. Kasune, pertaining to circumstantial children. We are aware of the plight of our dear circumstantial children who have found themselves in very unfortunate situations in prison. We have been liaising with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services to ensure that all adequate support is given to the children, and not only to the children, but also to the mothers who are in prisons. We are working on programmes to ensure that their stay in prison is not as harsh as those who have found themselves in similar conditions. We are working with various institutions to provide for the mothers and the children themselves. We are also trying to adhere to international protocols pertaining to the provisions of the rights of circumstantial children.

Madam, I want to assure you that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services is working out a very comprehensive programme, which will soon rollout to ensure that the plight of circumstantial children and their mothers is alleviated.

Madam Chairperson, coming to the issue of infrastructure, I want to state that we have embarked on a programme of rehabilitating prison infrastructure, hence the provision we have made in our budget. At this point, I want to inform the nation that we have decided to close Kamwala Remand Prison because of the unsightly and inhabitable condition it is in.We are transferring all the prisoners from Kamwala Remand Prison to Mwembeshi Correctional Facility which is in a very habitable condition as it is a new facility. We are also decongesting Chimbokaila in Kamwala, where we are going to ensure that only remandees remain while all the prisoners will be moved to Mwembeshi.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to assure Hon. Mwene, my colleagues here and the nation, which we are going to undertake a very transparent recruitment process. At every stage, we are informing the nation who has succeeded. At the moment, we have produced lists of those who have succeeded in provinces. The final list will be consolidated and it will be announced to the nation in due course, as a result of the comprehensive consultations we have made with relevant authorities.

Madam Chairperson, finally, I just want to thank all those who have debated the Motion and those who have not debated for I know that they are supporting the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 23 – (National Immigration Services – K161,327,073)

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, let me thank you for this opportunity to present the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Department of Immigration for the period 1st January to 31stDecember, 2023.

Madam Chairperson, the Department of Immigration draw sits mandate from the Immigration and Deportation Act No. 18 of 2010, as amended by Act No. 19 of 2016 of the Laws of Zambia. The Zambia Department of Immigration aims to effectively and efficiently facilitate and regulate the entry and exit of persons and control the stay of immigrants and visitors in the country, in order to contribute to internal security and sustainable economic development.

Madam Chairperson, before I outline the 2023 Budget key focus areas, allow me to comment on the performance of the department during the current fiscal year.

Madam Chairperson, the overall performance of the department during the last three quarters of 2022 has been satisfactory. Under border management, the department facilitated 1,111,416 entries and 1,057,308 exits of persons at all ports of entry. At the same time, it prevented illegal migration by conducting border patrols. The Treasury has supported the Department of Immigration by timely funding it in the 2022fiscal year, notwithstanding the limited fiscal space under Head 15. Further, the Treasury has released K11,240,000 as of quarter three of 2022, as additional funding outside the department's Budget towards the dismantling of all personnel related arrears for officers owed over the years.

Madam Chairperson, in an endeavour to regulate the stay of migrants in the country, the department carried out various operational activities such as chase-ups, roadblocks, sting operations, removals and deportations of illegal immigrants. Further, the department continued to contribute to the sustainable socio-economic development of the country through the collection of non-tax revenue.

Madam Chairperson, as of 1st November, 2022, K592,861,716.50was collected against the annual revenue target of K519,000,000 representing an amount of K73,861,000.50 over and above the set target. Despite the successes recorded, the department’s operations have continued to be hampered by inadequate financial and human resources, inadequate transport, inadequate office space and officers’ housing coupled with a lack of holding facilities and a training school.

Madam Chairperson, the Zambia Department of Immigration with the support of the Cabinet Office and the Treasury is undergoing institutional reforms to address the challenges experienced over the years. Firstly, the Treasury has established a budgetary Head 23 for National Immigration Services to enhance operational efficiency for Zambia Department of Immigration. This means that the Zambia Department of Immigration shall migrate to Head 23 from Head15, Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security effective, 1st January 2023, subject to the approval of the 2023 Budget Estimates by this august House. Head 23 shall make it possible for the Treasury to consider higher budgetary allocations for the Zambia Department of Immigration which shall help address the prevailing challenges.

Madam Chairperson, secondly, over the years, the approved establishment for the officers was 995 from the time the department was established in 1965. In appreciating the department’s needs for human resources, the New Dawn Administration has approved a new structure of 2,455 providing an increase of 1,460. This new structure is being implemented in a phased approach starting with the fourth quarter of 2022.

So far, the Treasury has granted authority for 255 positions compromising fifteen senior immigration officers, fifty immigration officers, 100 immigration assistants and ninety border guards. The introduction of border guards is the first in the history of the department which shall provide for personnel to guard the borderline. This will help curb illegal migration as well as combat transnational organised crimes such as human trafficking and smuggling in persons.

Madam Chairperson, on the focus for the 2023 Budget, to ensure efficient and effective service delivery in the fiscal year 2023, the department will focus on ensuring that the Immigration and Deportation Act and other immigration policy documents are aligned with the recently approved National Migration Policy. Further, the department will focus its efforts towards increased immigration operations throughout the country. In the 2023 Budget, the proposed allocation for the department is K161,327,073 to cater for national migration services. The proposed allocations to each programme are broken down as follows:

  1. immigration services K19,570;
  2. management and support services – K37,297,140;
  3. provincial immigration administration – K100,000,000; and
  4. refugees and asylum management – K4,386,434.

Madam Chairperson, the department has failed to complete its headquarters on AlickNkhata Road which has been under construction for the last twelve years, given the limited resources allocated. Therefore, it is expected that the Treasury shall provide financial support in the 2023 fiscal year, to enable the department to complete its headquarters which is already at 80 per cent.

Madam Chairperson, on the estimates of revenue, it is projected that the Department of Immigration will collect K760 million for the 2023 fiscal year, from visa and permit fees. However, revenue collections from visa fees are expected to drop due to the recent policy and adjustment to the visa fees for forty-three countries as at 1st November, 2022.

Madam Chairperson, the New Dawn Administration has prioritised effective migration governance in national development plans in order to harness the benefits of migration, counter its negative effects and at the same time address migration challenges such as mixed migration flows, human trafficking, smuggling of persons, long porous borders and irregular migration.


Madam Chairperson, the 2023 proposed allocations will enable the Department of Immigration execute its mandate effectively. Therefore, I implore hon. Members of this august House to support the proposed allocation for Vote 23.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the people of Dundumwezi an opportunity to contribute to the debate on Vote 23, which has appeared in this House for the first time probably since 1965 when this department was born.

Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security for considering the Vote for this department. The hon. Minister indicated that the mandate of this department is to regulate the movement of people in and outside of the country and also to monitor the stay of visitors. The hon. Minister also indicated that the Department of Immigration handed over 2.8 million foreigners, but probably this number does not include Zambians. This is because Zambians also go out of the country and come back and this is the same department that actually handles their documents and ensures that they go out of the country and come back. So, if the Zambian citizens are included, the Department of Immigration handles way over this figure the hon. Minister has given us.

Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister for instituting a credible leadership at this department, and I will illustrate why I am saying a credible leadership. In the statement, the hon. Minister indicated that by 1st November, 2022, the Department of Immigration had already raised K592 million against the target that it was given of K519 million, meaning it has gone way beyond the given target by about K73 million, and we wonder why this department was so neglected by the previous regime.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister indicated that there is a building that was abandoned in 2012, which is at 80 per cent. You will agree with me that the Patriotic Front (PF) policy was that all infrastructure below 80 per cent or above were supposed to be completed. Alas, this department was neglected and its building is at 80 per cent, but from 2012, the Government then failed to ensure that the department was funded.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, I also want to state –

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Chairperson, the rules of the House require us to be factual according to Standing Order No. 66. I heard the hon. Minister very clearly. He did not state that the building has been abandoned from 2012. He said that the building has been under construction for the last twelve years. Is the hon. Member debating and misleading himself so well in order to mislead himself, the House and the country at large by misquoting the hon. Minister who was on firm ground?

Madam Chairperson, I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Mr Sing’ombe, as you are debating, please, be very factual so that you do not mislead the people and the House, and try to focus on the budget. You may continue.

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, sometimes, people take different coffees and it leads to such because the hon. Minister was very clear that since 2012, the department has not been funded. So, it is more or less like abandoning the programme –

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Mr Sing’ombe, you have been guided. We need to make progress. With the guide that I had given you earlier, let us progress so that we windup this Vote.

Mr Sing’ombe: Much obliged, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister for advertising the recruitment of officers. I want to inform him that in this department, there is a cadre of immigration officers who never went for physical training and the reason being our colleagues were recruiting them secretly. They never advertised the jobs. So, a number of them joined the department and never went for training as it is supposed to be. I am a trained immigration officer and I went for physical training so the officers should have done the same. However, our colleagues just got their relatives and put them in the department without taking them for training. So, I thank the hon. Minister because this year, he has recruited people through the normal procedure and reintroduced sanity in this department.

Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, our immigration officers, who are well clad in professional uniforms, conduct their work diligently and I see some of them here and others out there in the borders doing a fabulous job for this country. The hon. Member of Parliament has just announced here that these are cadres who never went for training and they are unprofessional, and he is punching into the integrity of this institution.

Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member able to produce evidence on the Floor of this House to show how many of these immigration officers are cadres who never went for training and they are busy doing a bad job because of their poor training? Is he in order to bring such information on the Floor of the House that punctures the integrity of such an important institution? If he has that data, is he able to produce it and lay it on the Table of this House?

Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Mr Sing’ombe, as you are debate, some issues that you are raising will require you to produce evidence such as this matter that you said that some of those that were recruited were not trained. There is a group that you indicated to say that they were brought in secretly and they were not trained. Do you have data or evidence to show that they were secretly recruited and were not trained? Do you have evidence Mr Sing’ombe or would you like withdraw the statement if there is no evidence?

Mr Sing’ombe: For now, Madam Chairperson, allow me to withdraw but I will reintroduce this matter in future.


Mr Sing’ombe: So, I have withdrawn.

The Chairperson: Thank you. The issue has been withdrawn as the hon. Member was out of order.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: For the sake of progress, can we now please be factual. I will not allow any more points of order. It is the responsibility of the person who is debating on the Floor to make sure that he/she gives true information and does not use words that are unparliamentary for the sake of progress. Otherwise, we will be derailing. We will not make progress.

Mr Sing’ombe, continue with your debate.

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, I was stating that the Zambia Department of Immigration is supposed to be funded. You are aware that in most of these Government departments, it is very difficult to find parking space. It is the same scenario even at the Zambia Department of Immigration. Kent Building is quite old that it requires renovation or, like the hon. Minister indicated, to be relocated to a new site but our colleagues did not give them sufficient funds. I implore the hon. Minister to look into this matter. The Zambia Department of Immigration, like I have indicated, does raise monies and it is only better that it is funded adequately so that it can operate professionally and in a very good building.

Madam Chairperson, let me also say something on the issue of increasing the establishment. The hon. Minister has indicated that from way back the establishment of the Zambia Department of Immigration was at about 900. That is a very small number of officers against the influx of foreigners coming into this country. I thank the hon. Minister for ensuring that he has increased the establishment from 900 to over 2,000. However, I urge the hon. Minister that as time goes and with resources allowing, to increase the numbers because visa fees have been waived for about forty-three countries, meaning that there will be many people coming to this country and hence having a scenario where all our border points will be congested because of very few human resource.

This department, Madam Chairperson, in most cases has no transport. Let me talk about Kalomo where most foreigners, if any, are sometimes not in our urban set up. Some of them are in the outskirts like farms and so on and so forth. So, there is need to capacitate the Zambia Department of Immigration with adequate transport. This department can create the desired employment for our youths. Most the people that are in this country are given jobs and if the Zambia Department of Immigration goes to inspect all business houses, it will realise that there a many people who are not supposed to be working in this country. It is only this department that can ensure that such positions are left for the people of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, at this stage, I ask the hon. Minister, with resources, to increase the budgetary allocation but in support let me state that K160 million will assist because you have done a number of issues that will help them. Secondly, I also want to see the Directory General (DG) welcoming the President at the airport. Why is it that he is not among those who welcome him as the DG of this department?

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the people of Kafulafuta a chance to contribute to the debate on the Floor.

To start with Madam Chairperson, I most sincerely thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and his counterpart the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security for the hard work that is exhibited in this Vote under discussion.

Madam Chairperson, my view over the Budget is, of course, to firstly declare that I fully support the budget under this Vote but I feel that we needed a bit of a raise to ensure that the Zambia Department of Immigration is adequately catered for. I have been to a number of a number of Zambia Department of Immigration offices in the country and I have noticed that, first of all, the office set up sometimes looks dilapidated needing a good face lift so that whoever walks into the Zambia Department of Immigration knows that they are in the offices that matter. So, I think that the budget needs a bit of uplift.  

Madam Chairperson, as I was looking at the salaries though I may not know exactly how many officers we have but it looks obvious to me that this area too needs a good address especially that it is a very key department which can either sell our country to outsiders or protect us. I am saying this because sometimes it is possible that people would come with huge sums of money to bribe their way out of any predicament they might find themselves in especially if they are illegally in the country. So, I think that salaries there need to be addressed slightly so that the officers are motivated and are diligent as they perform their duties in the interest of the nation.

Madam Chairperson, I think I have been to the Zambia Department of Immigration on one or two occasions when I needed to renew my passport and I was told that the system was down. This has been habitual particularly from the Ndola office where you submit an application and the officers do not respond as quickly as they have to especially that we have moments when someone has to pay for express services and they do not get that benefit because, maybe, the system has broken down. Whatever applications are handled in Ndola have to be forwarded to Lusaka. So, I think that the system needs a refurbishment so that it is as efficient as it should be.

As the previous speaker mentioned, Madam Chairperson, it is also common sense that, pardon me for using that terminology, Immigration Offices or Officers need very good reliable transport. I say this because there are moments that I can give examples about. I have lived in Ndola for some time. When the Immigration Officers carry out an operation against illegal migrants, they have had to scrounge for transportation to follow these illegal migrants and when they catch with a few like it is the case always, they face many problems in transporting them. So, I think that this is an area in the Zambia Department of Immigration that needs serious attention.

Madam Chairperson, on the flip side of the coin, I feel that we need to see a great change from the Departmentof Immigration. The department needs to be efficient after this budget because I am sure it is going to change many things. It may not be 100 per cent, but we would like to see our immigration officers being efficient. When an application is made for whatever cause, we would like to see these applications handled in an expeditious way so that the-would be applicants can get the full benefits of the service.

With these few words, Madam Chairperson, I wish to fully support this Vote and wish the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security more years to live in this department.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

We are going to hear from the left.

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for this opportunity.

Madam, from the outset, I want to state that I support the budget line for the Department of Immigration.

Madam Chairperson, this is one particular department in the governance system that has proved, over the years, to be as professional as it can possibly. I also want to state right here that when the hon. Minister of Home Minister and Internal Security gave that statement, he did that on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Zambia.

Madam, it is the duty of all hon. Colleagues, especially those on the right, both the Backbench and the Frontbench to support the work that this particular department does. It will not do to come here to come and cast unfounded aspersions on these men and women of integrity. It is our duty. We cannot come here and start calling our officers as cadres who were employed because of family ties. It is totally unacceptable. I would like to believe that our hon. Colleagueson the right docaucusbefore such events as this budget.

Madam, it is incumbent upon Her Honour the Vice-President who is the Leader of Government Business in the House to couch her members to ensure that as we debate an important Vote like this one, they know the words to use and those not to.

Madam, it is also interesting to note that our hon. Colleagues think that Zambia started in 2011. If you hear from their debate, this budget we are dealing with right now for 2023 must be compared with the 2022 Budget which we are finishing next month. This should be the comparison, but it is incredible that our Colleagues will stand and all they do is compare and refer to the former Government. No, we have moved on. However, it is also very good because the biggest marketing manager for the Patriotic Front (PF) are those hon. Colleagues on your right. Every time you mention the PF, in any fashion whatsoever, you are marketing the PF.

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Chilangwa: That is why you have seen the incredible search. You can say ‘question here’, go in the field, go on the ground …

The Chairperson: Order Mr Chilangwa!

Mr Chilangwa: Can we please be more focused on the budget.

Mr Chilangwa: We are very focused, Madam Chairperson.

Madam, I am now coming to the issue of office space.


The Chairperson:Can we have order!

Mr Chilangwa: You see hon. Colleagues, you may say whatever you want and you may comment …

The Chairperson:Order!

Mr Chilangwa, can you please be focused on the budget.

Mr Chilangwa: Iam very focused. That is why I am looking at you intently.

The Chairperson:No, no, no, no! You are also getting views from the other hon. Members.

Mr Chilangwa: No, I do not mind the hecklers.

The Chairperson:Order! Maybe, you can take your seat for the time being.

When an hon. Member is debating, he/she is not supposed to answer to any comments coming from other hon. Members because the person who is debating is supposed to debate through the Chair. Equally, other hon. Members are not supposed to debate while seated. You are just supposed to indicate so that you are given chance to debate. So, the hon. Member on the Floor should please be focused and debate through the Chair. You may continue.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. (whilepointing at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security) I am supporting that hon. Minister and the department and I want him to do greater works than he has achieved so far.

Madam, coming to office accommodation, you heard that we spoke about the building that was started twelve years ago and going through what has happened obliviously, the status at which that particular structure is, is not the same status that structure was at in 2011 and 2012. I think there have been stalled works, especially in the last two to three years, obviously owing to the Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19).

Further, urge the hon. Minister to liaise with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. You may remember that last year, he made a pronouncement where he said the Government would not focus on some of the infrastructure and some office buildings because so much money was spent in the past on the same structures. So, I just want to urge the hon. Minister to liaise and collaborate.

If you look at this year’s Budget, which was presented last year, you will see that there was no line, whatever to support the completion of that particular project. So, for me, the ball is in the Government’s court and not in the PF’s. It is the Government that needs to ensure that it completes that office space. Yes, I totally agree that when you go to the Department of Immigration and Kent Building in particular, you have nowhere to park. In addition, the department has grown over the years.


Madam Chairperson, with the opening of new border posts, we need to open more border crossings because I do not believe that people who live along border line areas have to go 100 km to 200 km to go and find a designated crossing point. I think we need to move. For the sake of the movement of our people, goods and services and for the sake of getting to where we should be as a country in promoting commerce and industry, it imperative that we open more border crossings and ensure that more staff is deployed to those particular areas.

Madam Chairperson, in a nutshell, this department needs and deserves our support. So, even as people come on the Floor of the House to promote the wellbeing the PF by talking about the PF rule, it is important that they continue marketing us. This includes Her Honour the Vice-President, Hon. W. M. K. Nalumango. You should continue marketing the PF and we are very happy with your marketing strategy.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, we have to make progress. We have heard from the UPND, the Independents and the PF. I ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to wind up debate.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity.

Madam, I would like to thank most sincerely my hon. Colleagues; Hon. Sing’ombe, Hon. Mulebwa and Hon. Chilangwa for the support rendered to this Vote. I have taken note of the issues that have been raised by my hon. Colleagues, in particular, the issues of the building that we are constructing that will be the headquarters for the Department of Immigration. As you may have noted, we have provided funding in this year’s proposed budget for that. We hope that it will be adequate to complete the building.

I have also noted the concerns that have been raised by Hon. Mulebwa patterning to the dilapidated office infrastructure. Hon. Member, we appreciate your concerns, and that is our concern also. We have made provisions in this year’s Budget to provide funding for purchase of furniture and rehabilitation of some of our offices in the various locations.

Madam Chairperson, I just want to comment that the issues raised by Hon. Mulebwa patterning to passports, does not fall under immigration. It falls under the Passport’s Office, which we did approve yesterday.

Madam Chairperson, finally, I just want to appreciate the comment of Hon. Chilangwa, where he indicated that we are the chief marketing officers for the Patriotic Front (PF). I want to say that despite our efforts as their chief marketing officers, we have failed lamentably...



Mr Mwiimbu: ... to market them. As a result, they lost elections by 21:2. So, how have failed? However, we will continue marketing you, Hon. Chilangwa.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 Vote 23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 09 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – K12,704,093)

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Chairperson. I am grateful for according me this opportunity to present the 2023 Budget Estimate of Expenditure for the Teaching Service Commission.

Madam Chairperson, the Commission is established under Article 223 of the Constitution and draws its mandate from the Service Commissions Act No.10 of 2016. Among other functions, the commission is mandated to recruit, appoint, confirm, separate, hear and determine appeal cases and to provide an oversight role on the management of human resource cases by human resource management committees in the teaching service. In order for the commission to achieve its mandate, it works in collaboration with key stakeholders namely, the Ministry of Education, Teaching Council of Zambia (TCZ), and Teachers Unions (TU).

Mission Statement

Madam Chairperson, the work of the commission is guided by the following mission statement:

  1. to manage human resource in the teaching service for quality of education.

Functions of the Commission

Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission is charged with the responsibility of human resources management in the teaching service as provided for in the Constitution Amendment Act No. 2 of 2016 and the Service Commissions’ Act No. 10 of 2016. In line with the strategic focus of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) and the Vision 2030, the Teaching Service Commission will continue to implement its mandate in accordance with the strategic plan and balanced score card. The strategic plan has two things namely, human resource management, and operational excellence. The themes in the strategic plan will guide the commission in effectively contributing to the attainment of the human and social development strategic focus of the 8NDP whose main development outcomes are as follows:

  1. reduced poverty and inequalities; and
  2. improved human capital.

Overview of 2022 Budget Performance

Madam Chairperson, the commission was allocated a total of K9,963,207 of this K6,534,773 was Personal Emoluments and K3,428,434 for Goods and Services, which was funded to execute some of the following activities:

Teaching Service Human Resource Management

The following were achieved under this programme:

  1. constituted the Provincial Human Resource Management Committees in all the ten provinces;
  2. oriented the Human Resource Management Committees on the procedures for recruitment and placement in the teaching service in all 116 districts;
  3. recruited 30,496 teachers through the decentralised model with the Human Resource Management Committees in order to improve quality of education; and
  4. processed a total of 10,081 human resource cases in 2022.

Management and Support Services

Madam Chairperson, we procured office desks, laptops and heavy-dutyfoilin one printer.

2023 Budget Estimates

Madam Chairperson, the commission has been allocated a total amount K12,704,093 in the 2023 Estimates of Expenditure. The functions are performed through two key programmes namely;

Teaching Service Human Resource Management

Madam Chairperson, under this programme the commission plans to enhance monitoring and evaluation to ensure compliance to set standards guidelines and regulations as well as sensitise officers in the teaching service on human resource reforms and the revised terms and conditions of service. The programme estimate is at K7,750,790.

Management and Support Services

Madam Chairperson, this is meant to undertake timely and effective provision of management and administration of support services to ensure smooth operations of the commission. The programme estimate is at K4,953,303. The sub-programmes are as follow:

  1. executive office management;
  2. human resource management and administration;and
  3. planning policy and coordination.

Madam Chairperson, in summary, the commission’s operational Budget estimate for 2023 amounts to K12,704,093. Out of this, K6,932,816 is for personal emoluments, K5,771,277 for Goods and Services, on which the above-mentioned programmes will be undertaken.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, the Budget estimates and the proposed programmes will greatly contribute to the attainment of human and social development. I therefore, urge this august House to approve the 2023 Estimates for the commission as presented.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Amutike (Mongu Central): Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson, I support the Vote for the Teaching Service Commission (TSC). Before I go further, I congratulate the TSC for having managed to recruit the over 30,000 teachers who were recently employed by the Government. I congratulate it for managing that process very well. Job well done.

Madam Chairperson, I want to talk about decentralisation. I think it is important that the TSC is decentralised to the provinces because, right now, it is a general perception that everything happens here in Lusaka. So, most teachers and personnel employed in the TSC complain that it takes so long to resolve the many challenges and issues that they face. For example, promotions take so long to be heard by the TSC and that is the news we get on the ground. When somebody who joined the teaching fraternity as a primary school teacher upgrades himself/herself and obtains a degree or master’s degree, he/she still remains a primary school teacher even five or seven years after acquiring that qualification. So, it is my considered view that, probably, these challenges can be sorted out if the TSC is decentralised. Of course, we know it is a question of resources, but we hope that the TSC can start thinking along those lines.

Madam Chairperson, being a son of a teacher myself, I remember when my father was a teacher then, there were many refresher courses and continuous development programmes. I am not sure if this is the case nowadays. So, I urge the TSC to look into that so that those who are in the service are continuously trained and get updated with latest trends, and we can have an informed and a well-trained workforce. It is important that it does that.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing I want to say is that we have heard stories about the recently deployed teachers. We hear some schools have not received any newly recruited teachers. I urge the TSC to look into that so that all schools that need personnel are equitably resourced without any favour. I think the New Dawn Government has demonstrated transparency in managing the affairs of this country. So, it is very important that even a school in the most rural ward in my constituency, receives newly recruited teachers.

Madam Chairperson. I plead with the Office of the President to increase resources to address the issues of accommodation, office space, desks, furniture, equipment and vehicles, which are some of the challenges that the TCS is facing in terms of managing its work and providing an oversight role. In the next budget, I urge it to consider increasing the budget for the TCS so that it can do its work effectively and efficiently.

Madam Chairperson, with those few words, I support the Vote of the TSC.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving a former teacher and lecturer this chance to contribute to the debate on this very important Vote.

Madam Chairperson, as the officers from the Teaching Service Commission (TSC) are seated there, I am sure they are very happy because they have produced many Members of Parliament, and even Presidents. For that, I salute them and they have my 100 per cent support over this Vote. If there is anything more that can be given to anyone, I would say we give it to the TSC. However, I want to touch on one thing that may need the TSC’s attention, which is the discipline of teachers.

Madam Chairperson, I come from Lundazi, a rural constituency, and many teachers there have been abusing pupils. The issue of discipline needs to be looked into by the TSC. Teachers cannot be having chalk bonus on our children because we trust them. When we send our children to boarding schools, they should be safe. We expect the TSC to look into that issue because at the end of the day, we do not want our children to come back pregnant. We want them to come back with degrees and very good results, especially A+.

Madam Chairperson, as I support this Vote, I want to bring to the attention of the TSC, the issue of not having a scale for those who are masters’ degree holders. Teachers have gone to school and they have attained very good results and we expect the TSC to motivate them. There is a need for the TSC, which is operating under the new dawn, to push for its teachers so that they do not just end up getting a master’s degree, but start looking for where to go.

Madam Chairperson, I want the TSC to look into the issue of having a psychologist at least in every district, if it cannot manage in every zone. It is important that it has a provision for a developmental psychologist, who can be going around schools to understand the challenges that our children are going through. There are many suicides taking place amongst the pupils. Apart from that, there is alcohol abuse in schools, and most of our children smoke. The headmasters on their own cannot manage to attend to issues that are cognitive in nature. There is a need for the TSC to provide a position so that the pupils are attended to and counselled in a psychological manner, and can fit into society.

Madam Chairperson, in addition, it is sad that most of the teachers get confirmed at death. Who will benefit from that? It is important that after the three months or six months, which the TSC writes as the probation period, someone is able to see himself/herself develop. Apart from that, many teachers are acting in their positions such as the heads of department. Today, they are moved to the left and tomorrow to the right. So, the TSC should look into such issues. I know, by supporting this budget, the officers at the TSC will be able to get a vehicle and when they come to Lundazi, I can take them to every corner so that they can look into the welfare of the teachers especially that it is coming from me, a Member of Parliament and a former teacher. I would really want to see such issues come to an end.

This means that they should also confirm me because I have even left them and they have not even given me the confirmation. If they have not given me confirmation, what will happen when I retire? What are they going to pay me? They have made run away from them because they are not taking care of us. This delay in confirmations has really been a challenge.

Madam Chairperson, I know it is not them who build the houses, but when the Teaching Service Commission goes around, it is important that it lobbies for decent accommodation for our teachers so that at the end of the day we speak together and our voices can be heard so that our teachers can have good accommodation, live in a decent place and be able to teach.

Madam, if there is any person who we should not play around with as a Government is a teacher because they can make a lawyer, a doctor or anyone. At the end of the day, we need to benefit from their services.

Madam Chairperson, I wish the Teaching Service Commission well and submit that I totally support this Vote. I would be the happiest if there can be more that we can give our Teaching Service Commission so that it can even go out into other countries and benchmark on how other teaching service commissions are working. With these few remarks, I submit.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the special people of Chasefu an opportunity to add a word to the debate on the budget of the Teaching Service Commission. I happened to have served as a Commissioner and understand the importance of these commissions in this Republic.

Madam, I thank the New Dawn Government, most sincerely, for what it has done for this country. I always underline this. I have just come from Chasefu Constituency where this same commission employed 473 teachers. This is the first time this is happening in the country and the issue of the teacher-pupil ratio no longer exists.

Madam, in supporting this Budget, I will be failing if I do not thank the Commission. I am a hands-on type of Member of Parliament. Last week, the Teaching Service Commission was in Chipata, our provincial centre, where it was engaging all the District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS) and staff by orienting them and helping them manage the newly recruited teachers. This has happened for the first time.

Madam Chairperson, yesterday, our DEBS in Chasefu had a meeting with all the newly recruited teachers to orient them and induct them on how to behave because, as it has been said, teachers are models. I am seeing the benefit of the policies that are coming. I totally support the resourcing of the commission so that it can function according to the expectations of the Government.

Madam, coming to the District Human Resource Management Committees that have been created, it is important that they are seen to be working so that all the cases from promotion to discipline and any others are dealt with expeditiously. At the end of the day, the buck stops at the commission.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of monitoring is very important. I thank the Government for putting money in this Budget for monitoring because all the 116 District Human Resource Committees should be monitored so that they are seen to be effective and so that at the end of the day when one is retiring, they are able to get their file processed within the shortest period of time. If one is to be confirmed, within a period of three months, that person should have their file processed. So, the issue of monitoring is very cardinal.

Madam, this goodwill coming from the Government should also be appreciated by the commission. The culture that we have come from should not be the case now. We have the New Dawn Administration and there should be a new way of doing things.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: As a Member of Parliament, I expect that the commission, with this political goodwill that has come now, will reciprocate by enhancing performance.We need to show this country and ensure that in all sectors, the teaching sector to be specific, services are delivered effectively and efficiently.

Madam Chairperson, the processing of retirement is a very big issue. We do not want to see our retired teachers destitute. We want to see files being processed on time. I have been wondering why it takes long to deal with files when we in the commission are recruited for the purpose of handling files and processing issues for the same teachers. Why should it take two years? I was at the commission, as I said. When we were processing documents, some people were deemed to have been promoted posthumously. That should not be the case.

Madam, as I support this Vote, let me add my voice, as the Member of Parliament for Chasefu, and tell her Honour the Vice-President that I am very happy with what they are doing.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: I am just from there and teachers are being inducted in all the zones in Chasefu. They were told and taught how to manage themselves and that will answer to the expectations of the people of Chasefu. We want efficiency so that the people of Chasefu can have the privilege of being taught and educated by a well cultured cadre of teachers employed by the New Dawn Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: I have seen that we are employing 4,500 more …

Hon. Government Member: Secondary school teachers!

Mr Nyambose: … secondary school teachers. Give Chasefu more so that it can develop like any other part of the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, I have always said that Lusaka is not Zambia. Chasefu is a part of Zambia and all the rural constituencies in this country are part of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Madam, on a lighter note, as I end, if all departments take the route that this Government is taking by decentralising, this country will never be the same.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this chance to add a few points to the debate on Vote 9, the Teaching Service Commission.


The Chairperson: Order!

Can we have order. We want to listen to the debate.

Mr Katakwe: In supporting this Vote with a Budget allocation of about K12.7 million, I am more of the view that in future we need to consider increasing this allocation so that we are able to see service delivery effected according to our mandate as the New Dawn Government.

Madam, let me point out a few things regarding the Human Resource Management Service. As other colleagues have said about decentralisation, we would need to see the Teaching Service Commission decentralised. It is not good to hear that the Teaching Service Commission (TSC) is sitting in Chipata and all the files in the Eastern Province are brought to a central point in order for issues to be dealt with. The next time we hear the commission is sitting in Ndola and all the files of the teachers on the Copperbelt are brought to a central place. How long will it take for them to get back to these provinces?

So, you find that issues tend to take long to be resolved. So, we would prefer to see sub-committees of the Teaching Service Commission (TSC). Let us say, when it is decentralised on the Copperbelt, provincial headquarters can have maybe, two members of the TSC and sub-members within there so that they are able to deal timely with the issues on the Copperbelt. If it is in the Western Province, then we should have two or three members of the Teaching Service Commission with a few other members gathered from within the province so that time and again, they are able to look at various cases as they arise. I think that is the whole essence of decentralisation and that will actually enhance efficiency in the TSC.

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to point out something on the issue of secondment. There are those teachers who have probably worked before and they are teaching in universities or colleges of education because they upgraded their qualifications by obtaining degrees, but it takes years for the TSC just to recognise and formalise their appointments as lecturers. I can cite a good number of examples, but to enhance that kind of efficiency, it is actually important that probably we increase the allocation of the Teaching Service Commission so that they are able to manage the human resource aspect effectively.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to mention that probably, we need to give more attention to digitalisation or Information and Communications Technology (ICT) because time and again, we see the TSC working manually on heaps of files. We need to go the digital way so that when we look for information about a particular teacher, we can get that information by simply clicking a button. For instance, when a teacher dies, it will take years for that teacher to be replaced because you have to look for this file and maybe, at the headquarters, the file is not there. At another point, you check the department and the file is missing. So, we need to enhance ICT in the TSC.

Madam Chairperson, with regards promotions, you find that the Head of Department (HoD) has been acting for three, four or even ten years as a senior teacher or head teacher without being confirmed in that position. They still remain in the same position. In Mushindamo District, my district, it is even worse. I brought up an issue with the TSC when it was time for recruitments and we somehow, we sat down and resolved one or two issues. I think the issue of letting people act in positions for too long is not good. It demotivates them. So, we need to ensure that we increase the budgetary allocation so that issues of promotions are resolved as soon as possible within the timeframe when one is appointed, if it is three or six months, they should be confirmed.

Madam Chairperson, that would actually help resolve issues to do with salary harmonisation. With regards to salary scales, there are people who have upgraded their qualifications, but they have remained in the same salary scale for too long. We, therefore, expect harmonisation in that regard, with the increase in the budgetary allocation.

Madam Chairperson, lastly, we would want the TSC to encourage the headteachers to undergo certain training in leadership and management. Some teachers were trained in leadership and management at Chalimbana University, which was the lead university in teaching and training teachers or headteachers. When you visit schools that have had headteachers who are trained in leadership and management, we see that they are effectively and efficiently running the institutions. I think that is the way to go. You need to promote your teachers and let those who are in leadership acquire managerial skills for efficient service delivery.

Madam Chairperson, in supporting this Vote, I thought I needed to add those sentiments.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr E. Daka (Msanzala): Madam Chairperson, my hon. Colleagues have talked about most of the things I wanted to debate on. However, I want to debate on three or four things. Firstly, it is the reunion of our teachers. Most of these teachers are not together with their spouses or families. So, we need to look into that issue so that our teachers can stay with their families.

Madam Chairperson, as I support this budget, I also want to remind the New Dawn Government that as much as we have many teachers in our country, we should put a deliberate policy for those who want to become teachers to teach on voluntary basis. For example, I am a product of untrained teaching and I am here today because I practiced it long ago. So, if the Government can come up with deliberate policy, as we are approving this budget, to have those teaching on voluntary basis be co-opted into this service so that they can upgrade their careers and become teachers.

Madam Chairperson, the other point that I wanted to raise is that of upgraded teachers, those who have gone to university. They were primary school teachers, but they have not yet been upgraded to their qualified degree or diploma level. Further, they are yet to be put on a salary scale in line with that particular degree. I request that as we are approving this budget, let us consider those teachers because for some of them to upgrade, they went as far as borrowing money or got loans with the hope of paying back the loans after being upgraded.

Madam, the other things that I want to talk about is that our rural constituencies where there are newly created districts, theDistrict Education Board Secretary (DEBS) and the District Education Standards Officer (DESO) and other staff are not yet in their respective offices.

Madam Chairperson, I appeal to Her Honour the Vice-President to try and make alternatives in those districts so that the officers basically stay in those areas. Let us see how best our teachers can be helped in those newly created districts. Accommodation for the DEBS is another area that needs to be looked into as that will help improve the services that our teachers are expected to offer.

Madam Chairperson, lastly, I thank the Government for employing our teachers who have been on the streets for years. However, it is not enough. We can increase this number in this budget to, maybe, 20,000 so that most teachers can get employment through this process.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, thank you and I would like to thank the hon. Members who have debated this very important Vote for the Teaching Service Commission. These hon. Members are Mr Amutike, Ms Nyirenda, Mr Nyambose, Mr Katakwe and Mr Daka. One thing that comes out in common is that almost everybody feels that the allocation could be improved because it looks at the importance of this commission, and we agree. Indeed, in future, as the economy grows, I am sure the hon. Minister will look at that and see that there is improvement in the allocation, which as hon. Members have debated, will lead to better service delivery by the commission.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing that I pick is that Mr Amutike and Ms Nyirenda have congratulated and appreciated the Teaching Service Commission for the work that it has done. Basically, all those who have debated have seen that this commission is important and they have appreciated the work that it is doing. 

Madam Chairperson, I note that everybody is concerned about the issue of decentralising the Teaching Service Commission. Hon. Colleagues, this is going on. In fact, this was applied through the deployment of teachers. The deployment of teacherswas done through a decentralised system. The recruitment was done from the district level, where we have the District Human Resource Management Committees. Those are part of the decentralised system. So, that is what was done.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of how the deployment was done, I think, the Teaching Service Commission did a very good job because they used a system that – Firstly, they did a needs assessment. They knew exactly what numbers were needed and they used a percentage. So, using the percentage in the deployment of teachers made it possible for areas to get the equal number of teachers. If need was high, it means the number of teachers was high too. It was not just suggested that a particular place gets more teachers. They get more teachers because the number of teachers they needed is high. That means even the number that remained is more. This is where, in appreciating the debate of Mr Nyambose, I totally say that his last request can never be granted, where he requested that more teachers should be sent to Chasefu. The Teaching Service Commission will continue to allocate teachers equitably to all the districts.

Madam Chairperson, another issue that came out during the debate is that of teachers who upgrade themselves, those teachers who have trained at different levels but remain stuck at the same positions. I think, even as we begun today’s sitting, I referred to that issue. In fact, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning assured this House that there is a component that will be used to upgrade the teachers from the grades where they have been stuck. That will be worked on.

Madam Chairperson, the other concern was about promotions and confirmation. I think, as the Teaching Service Commission, we listened very carefully to that concern because people must be confirmed in their positions. Confirming somebody posthumously does not really make any – I do not know which word to use, but it is not helpful to confirmation a person posthumously because confirmation is what will help in the process. Someone has talked about retirement. There is concern that the retirement processes take too long. Can you imagine a person retiring and they had never been confirmed. That means you have to start going right back, to dig out why they were not confirmed. Were they qualified or what? So, we hear that concern and we take it seriously. It is our prayer thatas we continue even with the process of decentralisation, these things will be looked at and it will be easy.

Madam Chairperson, another point I got is on monitoring. In fact, in its programme, the Teaching Service Commission has monitoring and evaluation. I can tell the hon. Members that by its programming for 2023,it will go through and even recheck the teachers who have been recruited. It will monitor and evaluate them. It will also look at the qualifications just in case,it missed something. The fact is the Teaching Service Commission had a very clear process that it followed but anything could have just slipped through their hands because of recruiting a big number of teachers in the 2022.

Madam Chairperson, I see that secondment is equal to the upgradebecause when a person is seconded to another, it means that that person should be looked at.

Madam Chairperson, we also hear about the issue of Information and Communication Technology (ICT) that it is important to have the ICT Department so that you do not have to move around with hard copy files which are difficult to carry.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue is about encouraging the headmasters to go fortraining in leadership.

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)



[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)


The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 15th November, 2022