Thursday, 10th November, 2022

Thursday, 10^th November, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR SIMUMBA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR NAKONDE, ON THE MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, HON. MPOSHA ON THE LACK OF WATER IN NAKONDE

Mr Simumba: On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the good people of Nakonde this chance to raise a matter of urgent public importance pursuant to our Standing Order No. 134 directed to the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Madam Speaker, Nakonde has had no water for the past one week. This is because the stream we are connected to has dried up. We are worried because we are a border town and we receive a many people from different parts of Zambia who would want to use toilets. As I am speaking, some of the public toilets have been locked up because of not having water.

Madam Speaker, as you know, contaminated water and poor sanitation can lead to transmission of diseases such as cholera, dysentery, diarrhoea and typhoid. If the outbreak of these diseases happens in Nakonde, it means places like Isoka and Chinsali will be affected. Government workers are fetching water from wells to use when answering the call of nature.

I seek your serious guidance Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nakonde, you are saying the stream has dried up but you know, God is a God of wonders, and the rains have come. I do not know what steps you have taken in order to ensure that the problems that are being faced by the people of Nakonde are alleviated due to the stream drying up. I do not know if you have even taken the trouble to get in touch with the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) to see how they can help you to either find water which can be used in the meantime as we are waiting for the rains or to help you with something else that can be done. I do not know whether you have dug wells. That is why there is this Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Please, can we use CDF where it is necessary so that we can alleviate some of these problems.

Mr Kapyanga: CDF has guidelines.

Madam Speaker: If you just come here and raise a matter, even if the hon. Minister – Hon. Member for Mpika, please! Even if the hon. Minister makes a statement today, will that sort out the problem? The problem of water will still be there. All you need to do is get in touch with the community. What project does the community want? If you see problems and look at them with the CDF Guidelines in mind, then nothing will be achieved. In the meantime, the money will be there but the community will not take advantage of it and not benefit from it. Please, let us take measures. We, ourselves, are part and parcel of the Government. So, we need to help and engage the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation to ensure that these problems are addressed rather than waiting to raise a matter on the Floor of this House because that is not going to help solve the problem.

MR KATAKWE, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR SOLWEZI EAST, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND LOGISTICS, MR. TAYALI AND THE HON. MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR. MWIIMBU, ON THE HARASSMENT OF MOTORISTS AT LAY-BY’S IN NDOLA AND WUSAKILE IN KITWE.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this chance to render an urgent matter of public importance towards the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics as well as the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, there is a lay-by just by Ndola Central Hospital and last week on Friday, one of our relatives and a public person was driving on the Ndola/Kitwe Road. Anyone who stops there to drop someone, a passenger or relative, tends to be harassed by people purporting to be police officers in plain clothes. They would grab your car keys, harass you and park your vehicle in the middle of the road and demand that you have to pay them K400 or else they will call the police. They even have radio messaging devices. They would call the police, the police would come and say you are not allowed to park there to pick or drop anybody hence you have to go and pay. This is becoming a nuisance to the public and a danger to lives especially that they are threatening people’s lives. They would beat you up, harass you and do anything. This is also happening at the lay-by next to Wusakile Police Station in Kitwe, just in the vicinity of the police. Once you stop there, they will even call the police who will come and drag you to the police station and make you pay.

Madam Speaker, this is posing a danger to lives by these people purporting to be police officers or traffic police officers. I seek your indulgence before we see accidents and lives being lost at these two lay-bys. I do not know what is happening in other areas around in the country but at these two places, something –

Mr J. Chibuye: Even in Chililabombwe.

Mr Katakwe: Even in Chililabombwe, I am told.

Madam Speaker, lives will soon be lost if nothing is done on this matter.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye: Doctor, you are right on that one.

Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics is in the House. Hon. Minister, are you aware of the issue that is being raised by the hon. Member for Solwezi East and being confirmed by the hon. Member for Roan?

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali): Madam Speaker, I am not aware of the matter being raised. I guess, this matter has nothing to do with the Ministry of Transport and Logistics, but could perhaps be redirected to the hon. Minister for Home Affairs and Internal Security since the allegation is that this is being perpetrated by men in uniform.

Madam Speaker: In that case, what the hon. Member for Solwezi East can do is, please, report the matter to the police. The hon. Minister is here and he can see what measures can be taken to address the issues. I am sure this matter has not been brought to the attention of the relevant authorities as we speak. Maybe it is just a complaint. People are complaining but the necessary report has not been submitted. Please, can we do the reporting and then see whether measures can be taken to alleviate the problem.

If it fails, that is when we can demand that the hon. Minister does something about it, or maybe, issue a ministerial statement.

MR MWENE, MP FOR MANGANGO, ON THE MEMBERS OF THE PATRIOTIC FRONT (PF), ON NOT SINGING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Speaker I rise on point of procedure in view of what I have observed in this House. My rising is pursuant to Standing Order 203 (2)which states that:

“(2)A member shall not act in a manner that brings the House or other members generally into disrepute.

Madam Speaker: Order hon. Member! We are still on matters of urgent public importance.

Mr Mwene: Madam Speaker, it is procedural and this phase I am talking about has passed. I am talking about the National Anthem.

Madam Speaker: Proceed, let us hear what the issue is.

Mr Mwene: Madam Speaker, I have noted with a very serious concern that some of your parliamentarians in this House, particularly hon. Members of the Patriotic Front (PF), do not sing the National Anthem.

Madam Speaker, this is bringing into very serious disrepute to this House because all of us, as we come into this House, are expected to sing the National Anthem. Our children are watching, just like all other members in the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwene: Madam Speaker, when somebody does not sing the National Anthem in this House, he/she cannot tell us this time around that now they are not able to sing the National Anthem purporting that they belong to a particular grouping that does not sing the National Anthem. I need your very serious ruling on some of these PF Members that do not sing the National Anthem on the Floor of this House.

Madam Speaker: It is a requirement that we all sing the National Anthem. I try to do my part. However, there are times when the singing is very loud and very joyous, from either the left or the right. There are also times when very few people participate in the singing of the National Anthem. When hon. Members sing the National Anthem, my spirit is uplifted. So, let us all sing the National Anthem when we are required to do so. In addition to that, after the prayer, please let us say Amen. Do not sing in your mind. Sing out loud so that we rejoice for being One Zambia One Nation. That is the ruling that I can give on the matter. You are all urged and encouraged to sing the National Anthem. Thank you very much for that reminder.

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QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

PROGRESS ON THE EXPLORATION OF GAS AND OIL IN THE COUNTRY

89. Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe)asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

what the progress on the exploration of gas and oil, countrywide was, as of August, 2022;
which parts of the country were under exploration, as of August, 2022;
which companies were conducting the explorations;
whether there had been any positive results; and
if so, which areas recorded positive results.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Madam Speaker, oil and gas exploration in the granted blocks was at various stages as of August, 2022. Progress regarding basic geological, microbial geochemical and geophysical data acquisition has been done in Block 31 covering parts of Luapula Province and the Northern Province. Block32covering parts of Luapula Province and the Northern Province and Block 54 covering parts of the Northern Province. Other companies granted licenses for petroleum blocks are awaiting relevant environmental statutory approvals before they can commence exploration works.

Madam Speaker, the following parts of the country had been under exploration as of August, 2022:

Petroleum Block 1,covering parts of the North-Western Province;
Petroleum Block 2,covering parts of the North-Western Province and the Western Province;
Petroleum Blocks17, 18, 20, 21 and 23 covering parts of the Western Province;
Petroleum Block 27, covering parts of Muchinga Province and the Eastern Province;
Petroleum Block 31, covering parts of Luapula Province and the Northern Province;
Petroleum Block 32, covering parts of Luapula Province and the Northern Province;
Petroleum Blocks 39 and 44, covering parts of Lusaka Province and the Southern Province;
Petroleum Block 52, covering parts of Luapula Province; and finally
Petroleum Block 54, covering parts of the Northern Province.

Madam Speaker, the following companies were conducting explorations:

Geo Petroleum Limited, over Block 31;
Sargas Oil Limited, over Block 54;
Tiseza Zambia Limited, over Block 18;
Mafula Energy Limited, over Blocks 2, 23 and 32;
Barotse Petroleum Limited, over Blocks 20 and 21; and
Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH), Blocks 1, 17, 27, 39, 44 and 52.

Madam Speaker, there have been positive results, geological and geophysical results regarding the presence of possible basins for possible accumulation of oil and gas which have been found during exploration. Furthermore, positive microbial indicators for possible presence of oil and gas have been found where microbial geochemical exploration and other related phased activities have been applied in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the following areas recorded positive results areas around Lake Tanganyika in the Northern Province covered by Blocks 31 and 54 showed positive geological and geophysical results regarding the presence of basins of for possible accumulation of oil and gas. Additionally, positive microbial indicators for possible presence of oil and gas have been found in Blocks 1, 2, 17, 18, 23, 27, 32, 39 and 44, covering parts of Luapula, the Northern Province, Muchinga Province, the Eastern Province, the Lusaka Province, the Southern Province, the North-Western Province and the Western Province.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister for elaborating so many things about the exploration and the progress that has been made. Is the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH), our own, highly competitive? If so, does it have what it needs to continue doing the exploration?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, we inherited the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) which was shrouded in a lot of confusion. It even started running milling plants. So, we have set ourselves on a path to reform and align it to its core business, which is mining, and also, investing in mining companies. So, I want to assure the hon. Member that, yes, ZCCM-IH is going to be competitive under the New Dawn Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, would the hon. Minister be in a position to give the exact time frame for the exploration? In the past, we have had some people who did the exploration, but started mining. Would the hon. Minister give the exact time frame for this exploration?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, exploration is not something you can give a time frame. Exploration is highly dependent on discoveries that you make. Those discoveries will inform you of the fact that you now need to go into prosper mining. So, you cannot really give a time frame for the exploration. What determines that is when you discover what you are looking for and then, you apply to the Government to say you want to go into proper mining.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has reported to this House and to the members of the public that there are some positive results from the exploration. I know that his report is highly technical, and is showing that work is being done by the companies that were given licenses to explore for gas and oil. Meaning that there is progress or there is good news coming from the works that are taking place. So far, the indications are that we might have oil and gas. Once the works are complete, does the Government intend to award actual drilling licenses to the same exploration license holders? Are we are going to see different companies undertaking the actual drilling for oil and gas?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, it follows that when somebody applies for an exploration license, it means he or she is looking for something. So, we do not intend to disturb them. When there is a discovery, and their report indicates that they can now go into mining, we would straight away give them a license. So, we are not looking at changing the companies that we have given the exploration license.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the responses so far.

Madam Speaker, in responding to question (c), the hon. Minister mentioned a number of companies that are carrying out the exploration and names could be misleading. Now, do we have Zambian companies that are involved in the exploration? If yes, how many Zambian and foreign companies are doing the exploration?

Madam Speaker: The normal practice is one question per hon. Member. There were two questions there. Hon. Minister, you may answer the first question.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, the list is showing that ZCCM-IH is also an explorer. This means that we already have a Zambian company that is doing the exploration.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Madam Speaker, is this the first time the country is conducting oil exploration?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, the exploration for oil has been ongoing. I remember when I was a young boy, somebody saying that we could get oil from grass. Those of us who were alive at that time know this. So, we have been exploring since time immemorial.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has mentioned a number of blocks under exploration. Is the ministry taking particular interest in certain areas where the probability of the discovery of oil and gas is high? For example, in 1986, Chama was reported to have oil deposits.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I think Chama is the area where there were suspected oil deposits from grass. I can confirm to the hon. Member, the House and the nation that we are actually talking with the hon. Minister of Energy because there are areas that are highly suspected to have oil and gas. So, the Inter-Ministerial Committee that is looking at that issue is in place. So, yes, we are doing just that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, some exploration started in the Northern Province roundabout 2017. From the hon. Minister’s response, there are positive results coming from the Northern Province. Are we likely to see some test drilling in the near future?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, actually, as I said, the Inter-Ministerial Committee is seriously looking at those issues. I think we are moving in that direction.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Speaker, in responding to the follow-up question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Mufumbwe, on whether the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) is competitive or not, the hon. Minister told this House that ZCCM-IH is not competitive. However, in Wusakile, what we know is that to ascertain whether a company like ZCCM-IH is competitive or not, we look at the dividends it has been declaring. Did the hon. Minister look at the dividends that ZCCM-IH has been declaring for him to insinuate that it is not competitive?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, though the question is a bit off-tangent, I will answer it.

Madam Speaker, competitiveness is never, and I underline ‘never’ determined by dividends.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to ask a follow-up question to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

Hon. Member: You can speak in Chinese!

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to ask the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development a follow-up question. Wǒ xiǎngwèngèwèntí.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I did not get what the hon. Member said. May the hon. Member repeat what he said.

Dr Mwanza: I will say that again. I said wǒ xiǎngwèngèwèntí …

Laughter

Madam Speaker: No wonder I did not hear.

Dr Mwanza: … meaning I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development a question.

Laughter

Dr Mwanza: Madam Speaker, it is good news that we are recording positive results from the exploration of petroleum and gas. As evidenced by the hon. Minister’s speech, the hydrocarbons in Lake Tanganyika show that there is petroleum. What is the Government’s plan for setting up an oil refinery because we are almost sure that we will actually have oil? Are we going to pump this oil to Saudi Arabia for refining and receive finished products in Zambia because we know for sure that Indeni Petroleum Refinery is going to be changed into a blender? What is the Government’s plan for refining the petroleum products that we are going to get in Zambia?

Hon. Opposition Members: Eh ma question aya!

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, of course, the Government has great plans but oil refinery is not my jurisdiction. My jurisdiction is mining, exploring and finding minerals. So, that question would be best directed to the hon. Minister of Energy.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that exploration cannot be given a time span. In the event that no time span is given for exploration, what other measures will he put in place because we have seen explorers coming and they are endlessly exploring? For example, Grizzly Mine in my district, has been explored for years and heavy equipment is being sent there every time. Can the hon. Minister assure us that these people are not getting the wealth out of this nation? What measures do we have if we cannot put a time span to exploration?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, every licence we give has a timeframe but can be renewed. If a person has a licence for exploring oil and gas, that licence has a timeframe. If people are submitting reports and they are not abrogating the law as they carry out their mining activities, they are allowed to renew their licences. So, each licence that is given has a timeframe but it can be renewed. So, if somebody is exploring and does not find anything within a specified time, he is allowed to renew his licence except for exploration as they give up 50 per cent of the space they are given. That is the law.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, my question was asked by the hon. Member who is from asking a question.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, as a follow-up to the question asked by Hon. Mushanga, I would like to find out the number of Zambian companies that have been given exploration licences and are currently exploring for oil.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, that is the same question Hon. Mushanga asked.

Madam Speaker: It was not answered. It was the second question and the hon. Member for Chinsali has taken the opportunity to ask it again.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, as regards the people who own licences, I will be glad to come to the House and give information on how many Zambians own licences, but I am very sure about the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH).

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Munashabantu (Mapatizya): Madam Speaker, how often does the hon. Minister get reports on the happenings of the people given exploration licences? In Mapatizya, many people are mining in the name of exploration licences.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, each licence has conditions and there are requirements for quarterly reports to be done when one obtains a licence. Further, if anybody has an exploration licence and goes into mining without the express authority of the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, that license is due for cancellation. So, that is the status.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Malambo (Magoye): Madam Speaker, Chisanga area of Gwembe District in the Southern Province was one of the areas where it was said that oil had been discovered sometime back in 2017. Of the areas that are perceived to have oil in the Southern Province, is Chisanga one of them?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, that issue of Gwembe is something I came to the House to answer about. We are still trying to ascertain whether the exploration reports concerning Gwembe are actually correct. As it stands, we are still investigating that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The issue is very interesting, but the last question will come from the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa. Please, let us continue engaging the hon. Minister for further clarification.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, the issue of oil and gas is very tricky and that is the issue Mozambique is grappling with. There is a likelihood that we can have that in Zambia so what is the Government’s roadmap to ensure that these resources are properly harnessed going forward?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, as I said, there is an inter-ministerial discussion going on between the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, the Ministry of Energy and other ministries as to how we should approach the belt around Mozambique and Zimbabwe. We understand that the boundaries that were drawn cannot be a determinant as to where the extent of those discoveries has reached, meaning the borders may not be the determinants. We know that the belt that is hosting these kinds of discoveries in other countries could actually extend through to Zambia. We are looking at that seriously and thereafter, a clear roadmap will be given and announced to the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Before we go to the next order, I urge hon. Members of Parliament to visit the tent outside. There is a desk fair that is ongoing. I know that most Members of Parliament have a shortage of school desks in their respective schools so I urge them to visit the fair. These are local products made by our own local companies.

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COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

(Consideration resumed)

VOTES 18 and 31 – (Judiciary – K738,945,717 and Ministry of Justice – K851,754,855).

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended yesterday, I was saying that looking at the Judiciary, in the policy statement which was read by the hon. Minister, he said that they were going to embark on the decentralisation of the Judiciary. That is very good and that it should not end at provincial level but it needs to trickle down to the district level. Why do I say so? I will cite an example like –

Mr Kasandwe: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

What is your point of order, hon. Member?

Mr Kasandwe: It is a point of procedure, Madam Chairperson.

Madam, during the submission of the hon. Minister’s policy statement yesterday, he combined two Votes; the Judiciary and the Ministry of Justice. These are two separate entities. In order to have a structured debate, Madam Chairperson, it is important that we separate the two by debating one Vote first and then we go to the other one.

I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Mr Kasandwe, the practice has been that some Votes have been combined. This is not the first time that this practice is occurring in this Parliament. We even saw the same scenario with the Votes under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security and the Zambia Police Service. Hon. Members were confusing the Votes, otherwise, it is a practice that some Votes are combined. On top of that, each policy statement was given. When we say combined, it is not that it was one policy statement bearing the two Votes but one policy statement for the Judiciary and another policy statement for the Ministry of Justice.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: So, in that case, hon. Members are at liberty to either debate on the Judiciary or the Ministry of Justice. This will give an equal opportunity to hon. Members of Parliament to debate. Usually, we have the same hon. Members debating on almost all the Votes. However, with this scenario, we are going to have different hon. Members debating. So, it will give us a wider coverage than having the same hon. Members debating the Judiciary and the Ministry of Justice.

So, with that explanation, we will proceed.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: This has happened before. What we are doing is not a new thing and can be attested by hon. Members who have been longer in the House. So, we will continue.

You may continue with your debate, Mr Mpundu.

Mr C. Mpundu: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that in as much as we are talking about decentralisation, many times has it ended at provincial level leaving district levels impaired. It is in this vein that I was trying to cite an example of my Constituency, Chembe, where people have to travel more than 100 km to seek the services of the Judiciary. This endangers the performance of stakeholders such as the Zambia Police Service and the Judiciary when ferrying the suspects. It is just prudent that the hon. Minister looks into decentralisation, not just ending at provincial level, but to district level, like Chembe. The Zambia Police Service does not even have a vehicle so they need to hire a vehicle. Ferrying people who are facing charges of felony in nature is quite dangerous.

Madam Chairperson, in addition to that, we have the Attorney-General’s Office where issues have been forwarded but it takes a long time for them to be responded to. An example is that there are certain contracts that have been running for a long time and need legal opinion. For example, it could be a road where one would decide to work on a bridge on a certain road but as we await other procedural aspects for the contractor to come back on cite, we seek legal opinion from the Attorney-General’s Office which takes a long time. A case in mind is in my constituency. We have certain crossing points which were projects that were running sometime back and the local authority has sought legal opinion from the Attorney-General’s Office, but up to now, that legal opinion has not been given despite all the logistics put in place. So, officers cannot act because they are waiting for the same legal opinion. These are areas that the hon. Minister needs to be refine so that we move forward.

Madam Chairperson, I know that the Attorney-General’s Office needs to be capacitated in order to perform its duties diligently. If it means putting in more personnel, please, do so that we do not have these hiccups in the dispensation of the development process.

With those few words, Madam Chairperson, I rest my case and I support the budget.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for according me this opportunity to make some comments as I support the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s proposal to allocate finances to the Ministry of Justice and the Judiciary.

Madam Chairperson, I will take my first eight minutes to discuss the Ministry of Justice and my second eight minutes to discuss the Judiciary.

Madam Chairperson, I am in full support of the budget allocation to the Ministry of Justice because this ministry represents everything that should be good in our country. I also support it because this ministry is the one that promulgates laws that we utilise in this country. This is a ministry which is an interface between the Judiciary and the Executive. So, it is an important ministry. To that effect, I support the allocation to it.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice is a youthful Minister, much like I was when I was one, and because of that, I wish him success. I want the hon. Minister of Justice to succeed. I want the people of Zambia to look at his time in the ministry to have been one of those times when we had a youthful hon. Minister who did the right things. In encouraging him to succeed as he leads this very significant ministry, I would like to comment on some of the things I have observed, which have cast the Ministry of Justice in very bad light in the recent past.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice recently attended a court session where he went to sit at the Bar when he is not the Attorney-General or an officer of court. Such conduct by the hon. Minister has really cast the Ministry of Justice and the hon. Minister himself, in bad light. I would like to recommend that the hon. Minister should not see himself as an officer of court but see himself –

Mr Munsanje: You are debating your fellow Member.

The Chairperson: Order Mr Kafwaya!

I think let us be focused on the budget.

Mr Kafwaya: For the Ministry of Justice, Madam.

The Chairperson: Yes, we are looking at the budget for that ministry or department …

Hon. UPND Members: Sit down!

The Chairperson: … because now, you are debating, …

Mr Muchima: Point of order.

The Chairperson: … in a way where you are trying to move away from the budget.

Mr Mufalali: Yes, to individuals.

The Chairperson: The main focus is the budget, not on other things which are not related. If you want them to be related, please, can you tie them up to the budget.

Mr Kafwaya: Absolutely.

The Chairperson: You may continue with your debate.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, when I was appointed Minister, Dr Simon Miti was the Secretary to Cabinet. It was his responsibility to ensure that I was trained in Cabinet procedure. This is why this budget which we are passing for the Ministry of Justice must assist in capacitating officers of the ministry including the hon. Minster so that he does not appear in court as though he was an officer of court.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kafwaya: That, Madam Chairperson, was erroneous, it must not happen for it actually erodes –

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Kafwaya!

There is an indication for a point of order by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, what is your point of order?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte in order to make scurrilous imputations on the character of the hon. Minister of Justice? It is public knowledge that the hon. Minister of Justice is State Counsel, a lawyer of long standing at the Bar. There is no law which says the hon. Minister of Justice cannot be in court. He has never represented anyone as hon. Minister of Justice. Is he in order to cast aspersions on the character of the hon. Minister of Justice in his debate?

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: I think I had guided. All these issues would not have risen if we stuck to the guidance which I gave you. The hon. Member on the Floor debating is actually out of order.

Hon. PF Members: How?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can we please make sure –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: No, no, the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources will give me chance to talk.

Please, hon. Members, let us avoid all these issues that are bringing us not to disagree. We are looking at the National Budget, the Budget which will be used for our country next year. I had guided that we just focus on the Budget. So, let us look at the Budget. Do we agree with it? What has been missing from the Budget? How would we have wanted it to be? However, now, it is like we have started debating ourselves and bringing ourselves in the debate.

Mr Kafwaya: No!

The Chairperson: Mr Kafwaya, …

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, –

The Chairperson: … can we please be focused on the Budget.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson –

The Chairperson: With that guide, Mr Kafwaya, please continue, but be focused. Let us concentrate on the budget.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson allow me to distinguish Hon. Mulambo Haimbe, SC. from the hon. Minister of Justice.

Hon. Mundubile: Yes!

Mr Kafwaya: The hon. Minister of Government.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: Allow me, Madam Chairperson, to indicate that I am speaking about the office of the hon. Minister of Justice, …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: … and not an individual.

Madam Chairperson, let me leave this issue just in case it was okay for my hon. Colleagues in the United Party for National Development (UPND) for the hon. Minister to go and sit at the Bar.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Kafwaya. I think there is a difference here, when you say –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can we have order!

When you single out a Minister…

Mr Kafwaya: Yes!

The Chairperson: … we all know who that minister is, …

Mr Kafwaya: Yes.

The Chairperson: … but if you say the ministry, it is very difficult to be accused that you are talking about this person. The way you brought it out, you singled out the hon. Minister and there is only one Minister of Justice who we all know is Mr Haimbe, SC.

Mr Kafwaya: Yes.

The Chairperson: So, let us try to avoid, let us find better ways of debating instead of pulling people into your debate.

Mr Kafwaya, you may continue for the last time.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, one other thing which I think cast the Ministry of Justice in very bad light is when he addressed a press briefing speaking on behalf of the President that the President did not meet Milingo Lungu and the President later on, came and told us that actually he did meet Milingo Lungu.

Madam Chairperson, I am proposing that in the 2023 Budget, a substantial amount of money should go towards capacity building in the Ministry of Justice.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: One other thing, Madam Chairperson, which I would like to point out is that when Bills come to this House, and then they are sent back, it reflects badly on the Ministry of Justice. When Bills come to this House and there is a series of amendments, it reflects badly on the Ministry of Justice. The hon. Minister of Justice should ensure that the Bills which are promulgated via his ministry, through Cabinet, publication and unto this House are good Bills where the hon. Members who sit in various Committees are able to say this is a good Bill and it is going to assist the nation and it does not have to go back.

Madam Chairperson, again there, I have to qualify why I think that that process should be actually followed because these processes attract costs. They attract costs at Cabinet level, the Ministry of Justice level, even here, at parliamentary procedural level. So, in order to be prudent in the utilisation of public resources, it is my proposal that the entire system that assists the ministry to promulgate these Bills is actually capacitated to ensure that we receive quality bills that do not have to go back to the Ministry of Justice, to Cabinet and back to the Assembly for the same Committees to start deliberating on the same Bills.

Madam Chairperson, let me be clearer now that I want the hon. Minister of Justice to succeed. I want this hon. Minister to be looked upon as one of the best hon. Ministers of Justice to have ever graced that very important office.

Madam Chairperson, as I finish my first eight minutes, I wish to submit that I support the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s proposal to allocate money to the Ministry of Justice.

Madam Chairperson, let me now use my next eight minutes to debate the Vote for the Judiciary.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson–

The Chairperson: Hon. Member has one more minute. He may continue.

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I just want to say that I would have loved to see the Judiciary to get more money. The Government could have given more money to the Judiciary so that those judges, whose vehicles have not been bought, can be bought so that we ease the mobility of our judges who have to contend with a lot pressure from the public and the Government. So, I really support the Judiciary and I wish them well in 2023.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Tayengwa(Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the good people of Kabwata a chance to contribute to debate on this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I want to categorically state that the good people of Kabwata do support this Vote. In supporting it, I will, especially, zero in on the issue of the Judiciary, in particular the issue of local courts.

Madam Chairperson, if you go to different places, you will see that the local courts in our country look like they have been orphaned. The infrastructure in the Judiciary is not something pleasing to look at. I am of the view that with the money that has been allocated to it, the Judiciary should spend more time to look at how best to improve the court infrastructure.

Madam Chairperson, the furniture being used in these local courts are a sorry sight. There is a need for the hon. Minister of Justice to look into the plight of the Judiciary, especially the local courts which are not being looked after properly.

Madam, the issue of record keeping in the local courts is something that we cannot even talk about. It is high time the Government introduced technology and computers so that some of the records can be kept not manually, but electronically.

Madam Chairperson, I can continue talking about issues of local courts and give you examples –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, the voices are too loud. We cannot even hear what the debater on the Floor of the House is saying. Can we minimise the loud voices!

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, this sitting, particularly this exercise we are doing is one of the key fundamental duties of a Member of Parliament; to play the oversight role on resource allocation and scrutinising the Budget in our country.

Madam Chairperson, you have combined two Votes. Surprisingly, you want to allocate the usual time thereby disadvantaging us Backbenchers, your hon. Members, in scrutinising these hon. Ministers. We want to ask them why they are allocating certain resources to certain sectors. So, by limiting the time, it may not be possible to do so. The hon. Minister was given ample time.

Mr Sing’ombe: What ample time?

Mr Mung’andu: I am the one talking hon. Member.

As I was saying, the hon. Minister was given double time. This should be our time to take to task those hon. Ministers so they explain why they are allocating certain resources to certain sectors. We also want to ask why certain outputs which previously received fewer resources are now receiving more resources so that Zambians out there can appreciate the role of your hon. Members. I seek your ruling on why you have reduced the time when we are ready to bringe, for example, the former Zambia National Marketeers Association (ZANAMA) Chairman, the Minister of Sports, Youth and Development to account.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Mr Mung’andu, on what Standing Order is that point of order premised?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, it is procedural, but on time allocation. Standing Orders allocate time. We are compressing time to disadvantage hon. Members. We are ready to put the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics to explain why he is allocating certain resources. This is for the benefit of our people.

The Chairperson: Mr Mung’andu, I think we are not making progress. The guide was given. We are not increasing the time for hon. Members to debate. We are increasing the number of hon. Members to debate, which comes to the same thing. For example, we are giving six people to debate a particular Vote. So, instead of just restricting ourselves to six people, we have twelve people to debate both Votes. Does it make a difference? Like I mentioned, this is not the first practice. It has been done before. We are not introducing something new. It has happened before. So, I see nothing wrong with combining the Votes this time around in this Parliament.

Why should it be an issue? It has been done before. So, let us not waste time. You are given an opportunity, even when it comes to the Vote, there is no restriction. You are going to ask the hon. Minister responsible for the Judiciary why the amounts are the way they are. Even on the Vote for the Ministry of Justice, you will ask why amounts are like that. So, I do not see any difference here whatsoever. So, without wasting much time, can we please continue. We want to hear many hon. Members debate instead of these interjections. We want have more than ten people debating, instead of six.

Can we continue. Who was the Member debating?

Mr Mung’andu: Tayengwa.

The Chairperson: You may continue.

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Chairperson, like I was saying, the issues that are affecting the Judiciary, especially at the local court level, are things that we need to correct. The issue of lack of transport is something that you can never even deny. If you look at the High Court, going up, you will see that they are well catered for, they do have transport. However, when you go to the local courts, especially the ones in the far-flung areas, you will not see any vehicle.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of salaries is another issue that is affecting the officers working in the Judiciary. At the local court level, most of the workers get meagre salaries which cannot even enable them to support their families. I, therefore, urge the ministry to look at that issue and try to improve the salaries of the officers working at the local courts.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of transfers in the Judiciary, especially at the local court level, is something we have noted with concern. You find that people are transferred, yet they are never paid settling in allowances for as long as three or four years. It is high time the hon. Minister of Justice also looked at that.

Madam, there is also the issue of upgrading people who are serving as officers at the local court level. There are situations where some of these officers have the right qualifications, but the system works against them. The system has been denying those who have graduated and have got the necessary qualifications an opportunity to handle higher positions.

Madam Chairperson, I believe that the Ministry of Justice should look at this issue and see how best it can improve or help officers who have attained higher qualifications.

Madam Chairperson, I will quickly dash to the issue of –

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to rise on a point of order, pursuant to Standing Order No. 58(4), manner of speaking, which reads as follows:

“A member shall not read a speech during debate but may make reference to notes or quote from a document.”

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor right now is reading, against what the Standing Orders say. Is the hon. Member in order to be reading while debating, contrary to what the Standing Orders require us to do?

The Chairperson: As the hon. Member for Chinsali has mentioned, hon. Members are not supposed to read, but I am sure the hon. Member on the Floor was referring to notes. However, the hon. Member should be mindful as he refers to his notes because it might have looked as if he was reading. With that guide, hon. Member, avoid looking as if you are reading.

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Chairperson, I do not read when I am debating. I just speak and things come out.

Madam Chairperson, I will zero in on the issue of legal aid. The Ministry of Justice should also consider looking at the issue of constituting a board at the Legal Aid Board. There is no way we can have an institution that is almost like a referral hospital in the legal sector and operates without a board. So, the hon. Minister of Justice should consider appointing a board at the Legal Aid Board.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about the issue of employing more lawyers at the Legal Aid Board. There are only a few lawyers who handle so many cases at the Legal Aid Board. So, it is high time this budget supported the issue of employing lawyers who should supplement the efforts of the other lawyers working at the Legal Aid Board. Further, the Legal Aid Board has been struggling in terms of transportation and it is high time the Ministry of Justice considered buying vehicles for it. It is also high time we considered upgrading some staff working at the Legal Aid Board. The Director and the Deputy Director have been acting for more than six months and it is either we confirm them or replace them with other people who are qualified.

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, the good people of Kabwata support this Vote.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Chairperson, let me just say that the people of Feira are happy to be given this opportunity to contribute to the 2023 Budget for the Judiciary as well as that for Ministry of Justice.

Madam Chairperson, the Judiciary is a sanctuary where each one of us rushes to when we have social, political or economic issues, and it is my considered view that this is an important Vote that we are discussing.

Madam Chairperson, let me start with the doctrine of the separation of powers. In this country, one of the three arms of the Government is the Judiciary. As we allocate funds to this arm of the Government, we need to ensure that it operates independently. No matter how tempted the Executive, or anyone is, let us ensure that the Judiciary is allowed to operate independently. The Judges must also operate independently.

Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about the Judicial Complaints Commission (JCC)vis-à-visdealing with Judges and other judicial officers. I am getting worried at the manner in which the JCC is discharging its duties. Understandably, the members of the JCC are appointed by the President and approved by this House and, indeed, that was done. Issues were raised with regard to the independence of the JCC and I am of the view that we need to urge the Government or the Executive to ensure that this institution operates independently as it discharges its duties of disciplining or overseeing and superintending over the judicial officers.

Madam Chairperson, as I talk about the independence of the Judiciary, I am also concerned with how other Government wings are dealing with the issues from the courts. Once the courts have made rulings, there is no provision anywhere where a court ruling can be disregarded. I think it is very important for this country to adhere to that. The court is a sanctuary we run to and once we mess up the courts or the Judiciary, …

Mr Jamba: Mess!

Mr E. Tembo: ... this is a recipe for anarchy, as my hon. Colleague there is murmuring.

Madam Chairperson, for me, it is important that we have a Judiciary, which receives full confidence from the public. Indeed, this cannot come by merely making statements, but by the conduct of us politicians on how we relate with the courts. Let us respect the courts and the Judges at all levels. I am raising these issues with regard to the manner in which judgements have been made in the recent past and the respect thereof of the rulings, as we look at the issue relating to Kabushi and Kabwata.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr E. Tembo: Yes, because you know it is the truth; the truth hurts.

Madam Chairperson, even when we have the greatest temptation or appetite to interfere with the Judiciary, let us restrain as politicians. We lose nothing from doing that but it is for our own benefit. So, my submission is that respecting court decisions no matter how much we disagree with them is very important and it adds value to the Government or to the Executive.

Madam Chairperson, having said that, let me generally talk about the court system. There is a dire need to build capacity in the courts, starting with the local courts, and to build infrastructure and train the judicial officers. The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) 2016Act No. 2 provides that even local courts must be improved to deal with various issues so that the higher courts can have less pressure. There has been progress in that area and we must commend ourselves. However, more judges are needed at the High Court because one Judge, to some extent, handles about 200 cases. We also need to build more courtrooms and chambers for the Judges, and employ more Judges.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, let me say that the proper functioning of the Judiciary is very critical to the development of this country. Therefore, the Ministry of Justice, as the overriding ministry, and its officers, must ensure that it does the right things.

Madam Chairperson, since I still have time, I wish to add that it is important to decentralise certain offices such as the Attorney-General’s Office and the National Prosecution Authority (NPA) to the district level. The Office of the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) must also be established at the district level where there are District Attorneys so that there is proper administration of justice.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, I thank you most sincerely for the opportunity to make a few comments and I will restrict my submission today to the issue pertaining to the Legal Aid Board and the Legal Aid Fund, which I think are appearing under the Ministry of Justice.

Madam Chairperson, even as we debate these two Votes together, I want each one of us to remember that we are here to allocate money towards Votes that will positively impact our people. One of the challenges that many Zambians face and is quite common in all 156 constituencies is the issue to do with access to justice. One of the ways in which the people of Zambia can get access to justice is if they have legal representation.

Madam, I have had opportunities to seek legal assistance in various cases that I have had, some political and some for other reasons. I can confidently say that it is expensive to hire a lawyer in Zambia. It is extremely expensive for an ordinary citizen out there who has a grievance with any ministry, any labour matter or any personal issue to get a lawyer. If I were to ask how many Zambians can access legal services from a private legal firm, many people would find it practically impossible. What normally happens is that we have Zambians who eventually end up losing out on claiming things they are entitled to.

Madam, as I continue to debate, I note that the hon. Minister for Small and Medium Enterprise Development is making noise and the hon. Minister of Education is also here. The quality of my debate is being affected because now I am curious to know what they are discussing as I debate.

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, should I continue debating …

The Chairperson: Hon. Kang’ombe, you are debating through the Chair, not through other people in the House. If you can just concentrate your debate through the Chair –

Mr Kang’ombe: My line of thought –

The Chairperson: Do not mind the people in the House. Just concentrate on your debate.

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, let me emphasise the point that Zambians do not have the capacity to afford lawyers. There are too many Zambians who fail to hire a lawyer. In this Budget, we are allocating K52 million to an institution that is very critical. The institution we are discussing is the Legal Aid Board. The current K52 million that has been put in the 2023 Budget is not adequate. In most cases, when we stand to contribute to these Votes, our desire is that what we say is taken on board. What will happen over the next couple of years is that some of us will stop contributing to debate on these Votes when they come up because, sometimes, what we say is not considered.

Madam, here we are and there is a serious observation by so many hon. Members that money towards certain sectors is not adequate. Here I am suggesting that to allow Zambians to have access to legal representation, we need to empower the Legal Aid Board. I propose that the K52 million that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has allocated to the Ministry of Justice towards the Legal Aid Board be increased because it is not adequate.

Madam Chairperson, many of us who have had an opportunity to receive phone calls from our respective constituencies hear citizens complain that they cannot go to court because they do not have the capacity to hire lawyers. It is easy for all of us who are sited here to promise a lawyer that we will pay after we win the case maybe because we have an income. However, this institution called the Legal Aid Board is supposed to provide legal representation to the people in Kaputa, Kabompo, Kamfinsa and Shiwang’andu who cannot afford a lawyer.

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

Mr Kangombe: Madam, I look at K52 million and 116 districts. When a worker has been fired and wants to take the matter to court but he cannot get a lawyer, I am wondering what the K52 million will do. I stand here appealing to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Ministry of Justice, and I am happy that Her Honour the Vice-President is here. The K52 million that we have given to create institutional support to an institution that is supposed to give legal representation to our young men and women and the elderly who cannot afford a lawyer is not enough.

Madam Chairperson, I am speaking passionately about this matter because when I had an opportunity to serve as Mayor of Kitwe, people would come to my office everyday telling me they cannot go to court because they cannot afford a lawyer. When we would refer them to the Legal Aid Board, we would be told they do not have enough lawyers to represent those people. I am aware that each one of us has probably received a phone call from the constituency asking that they need to be assisted with legal representation.

Madam, our people cannot afford the legal fees for most of the lawyers that we have in Zambia. Let me appeal to the left and the right that the K52 million we have put in the Budget is not enough. Even before we approve this money, I request that we adjust the figure and give them a little bit more money so that all these offices for the Legal Aid Board could have adequate lawyers, infrastructure and vehicles to go out there and confirm that indeed there is an issue that needs legal representation in Mumbwa.

Interruptions

Mr Kang’ombe: They can say question but I know very well that their people need legal representation. I know they can afford a lawyer, but our people out there cannot afford one.

Madam, as I debate the provision to the Ministry of Justice and support the allocation, I request that we adjust the figure specifically for the Legal Aid Board so that we can give them more lawyers, more transport and more infrastructure to be able to represent our people.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate the Ministry of Justice and the Judiciary.

Madam, as the hon. Member for Sinda stated, the Judiciary must be a sanctuary and all of us must treat it with the sacredness it deserves. For any institution to function, it must be incapacitated in terms of resources. I was looking –

Hon. Government Members: Incapacitated?

Mr Chitotela: It must be capacitated with many resources.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Madam Chairperson, I was doing a comparative analysis. The Zambia Police Service which is there to maintain law and order has been given in excess of K2 billion. The Ministry of Justice, which deals with the administration and the political system has been given in excess of K851,754,855. The Judiciary which is supposed to be independent, function properly and be the custodian of the interpretation and maintenance of justice in Zambia, has just been given K738,945,717. This is a statement that if you want to have control, keep the money to yourself because when you have the money you will be able to have control. How do we expect the Judiciary in Zambia to be independent if the allocation given to them is less than the money given to the administration and the political system in the Ministry of Justice?

Madam, surely, we need to capacitate the Judiciary so that it can truly be independent and function without the interference of the Executive. However, if we do not give them enough resources, how can they function? We are talking about judges who have accrued benefits. Some of them are supposed to be given vehicles, but to date they have not been given vehicles. How do you expect them to function?

Let us look at the conditions of service for magistrates for lower courts. You cannot talk about them. How can you improve the conditions of service for lower courts including buying vehicles for judges who are deserving if the resources that we allocate to them cannot make them to be sustainable and functioning independently? So, I want to call upon hon. Members of Parliament that as we go to individual items, let us check where we can move resources to so that we can give more money to the Judiciary to enable it to function independently. Otherwise, it will be a mockery of justice if we cannot finance them and if we cannot give them enough resources.

Madam Chairperson, this reminds me of a political comment that has been going on each time there is a judgment that may not favour you. We have heard political comments that are deliberately made to undermine the integrity of the Judiciary in Zambia. The Judiciary must be treated with the sacredness that it deserves because all of us run there. Today, you may think you are above the law, tomorrow, you may need the same men and women we are under budgeting for.

Mr Nkandu: Continue confessing.

Laughter

Mr Chitotela: I must state –

Hon. Minister for Youth, Sports and Arts, you will force us to move a Motion of Censure, to censure you. You are an hon. Minister, you must behave above the mentality of Chisokone Market.

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Chitotela!

Hon. Members, can we please take this session seriously. We are looking at something that is very big for this nation. Therefore, when somebody is debating, let us give him/her room to debate so that even the people who are listening to the debates are able to get the message from the debate.

Mr Chitotela, you may continue.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for your protection.

Let me now come to the ministry responsible for justice. Look at certain political activities that had happened at the Magistrates Court Complex’. Those men and women cannot defend themselves. They cannot stand up and speak for themselves. You need to strongly warn against political interference. Some political party members may not be happy with the conduct of certain members of the public, but when they are within the precincts of court, that sovereignty must be able to protect every citizen. We must be able to speak to our political party cadres not to interfere in the operations of the Judiciary. This is in reference to what happened at the Magistrates’ Court Complex when the former Member of Parliament for Kabushi and Patriotic Front (PF) member, Mr Nakacinda, were appearing at court. The happenings are there for anyone to see.

Madam Chairperson, there have been judgements which have been passed which have received a lot of condemnation from the political groupings. Those men and women in the Judiciary cannot stand up and defend themselves. So, it is incumbent upon us to defend, protect and give them the latitude that they deserve for them to function with that independent mind. That is what we are calling for. Hon. Minister, we want to implore you that as you come up with legislation, in this life, we have learnt a lot of lessons. Legislations that are crafted to target individuals, certain groupings of a certain class – I remember the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development standing here and saying what is permanent is change and change is inevitable.

Madam Chairperson, one lesson I learnt from my father is, when you enter, the next time, it is to go out. No matter how much you may want to stay, you will go out. So, hon. Minister, you have a chance to come up with legislation that will stand a test of time, that even when you will be out of that office, you will look back and be proud of your contribution during your time as Minister responsible for justice. However, if you want to come up with political Bills and legislation that seems to favour individual interests, when you go, you will look back and say but why did I do that? So, this is timely caution to you hon. Minister. As you stand up, justice must be seen to be done and not just to be heard to be done. The law must be there to protect every citizen. The courts are there to defend and protect the rights of every citizen. With these submissions, Madam Chairperson, I support the two Votes.

I thank you.

The Chairperson: We need to make progress. I will allow one more hon. Member from my left; Mr Kampyongo to debate. Then the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security will debate before the hon. Minister of Justice winds up debate.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, thank you for permitting me to debate Vote 18 – Judiciary.

Madam Chairperson, we, indeed, appreciate that we have time constraints, but it is prudent that when we deal with these pertinent matters, we are given enough time. In my debate, I will focus on the Judiciary. I am saying this because the Judiciary, as you know, is an arm of Government, stand alone, while the Ministry of Justice is part of the Executive. We have always debated these Votes differently. We shall do with the guidance that you have given.

Madam Chairperson, the mandate of the Judiciary is simply to hear civil and criminal matters and matters related to and in respect of the Constitution. The amounts that have been assigned to some of the expenditure areas, of course, could have been better. I will take the allocation to infrastructure, for example, where the hon. Minister has allocated about K50 million from what was approved last year, which is about K49 million.

Madam Chairperson, infrastructure development under the Judiciary is very critical because as we speak now, there are courts that are not permanent. Under our administration, we had the Constitutional Court and Court of Appeal created. Now, the New Dawn Administration has added what it is now calling Economic and Financial Crimes Court. So, these require infrastructure or accommodation. The doctrine of separation of powers also goes with what you provide for these institutions. I must commend the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security for implementing what we left in place after we had put up that infrastructure where he is, his headquarters, by accommodating some courts.

Mr Munsanje: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: You can question, that is what ignorance does. However, what we are telling you is something verified and is on the ground.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members so that we make progress!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I commend the hon. Minister for Home Affairs and Internal Security for accommodating the Judiciary because it desperately needs space to operate from. So, this allocation of K50 million is not enough because the Government is talking about rehabilitating and building new infrastructure. You have decentralised the operations of the High Court into provinces. Where are they operating from? In do recall, like in Muchinga, it had to take the infrastructure we have left there for the police to accommodate some courts. That is not desirable. So, it is important that we start allocating funds that will help us deal with this issue of infrastructure.

Madam Chairperson, on emoluments, yes, I can see that the ministry has allocated K496 million towards emoluments. This just speaks to the newly created courts. So, when it comes to manpower, what is the welfare of these people who are adjudicators? The way you remunerate these adjudicators also affects the quality of justice that is dispensed.

So, it important to note that the cost of living is escalating, and these are men and women at the bench require to be looked after. So, I think this allocation, for me, could have been better than this. We note that K5,583,822 has been allocated to transfers. In as much as the Government is allocating these funds, it should also be mindful that it made pronouncements that as it is transferring these public servants, they must not be separated from their families. We know of adjudicators who have been transferred and separated from their families. So, this matter should be looked into. I also want to appeal to the hon. Minister, that whilst –

Mr Michelo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order!

There is an indication for a point of order. I have to announce that this is the last point of order because we are not progressing. We are behind scheduled.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Michelo: Madam Chairperson, I am seated here comfortably listening to the debater, the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, the former Minister of Home Affairs, now the Opposition Chief Whip. In his debate, he is saying that he is the one who built the building which the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is occupying. He is saying that they (PF) left that building for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. He is even saying that they built houses, I am not sure whether it is in Luapula or Central provinces.

Madam Chairperson, let me now educate the hon. Members of Parliament and I stand on Standing Order No. 65. The hon. Member is misleading the entire country by saying that they built that building when they were here in Parliament. I have been here since 2016, and it is us hon. Members of Parliament who approved the Budget where they got the money to build those offices. We were part and parcel of that system. I am therefore, wondering why the hon. Member is singling himself out that he is the one who built the building which the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is occupying. Is he in order to say that the hon. Minister Home Affairs and Internal Security was not part of the people who approved the Budget that enabled them to build the building which the hon. Minister is occupying?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Mr Michelo has actually debated his point of order. He even said, “Let me educate the hon. Member.” So, you have debated your point of order. Let us make progress.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you, Madam Chairperson for that guidance.

Madam Chairperson, I do not know who should educate who. I need to orient the hon. Member on what it takes to be appointed to the front bench because he might not reach there. So, he should learn from us who have been through that. Maybe, he might be lucky one day.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Let us give him chance to conclude

Mr Jamba: You are now on the left!

Mr Kampyongo: The record is still there my friend. So, you need to learn.

The Chairperson: Let us be focused to the debate.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the issues I am debating are very serious. I am not trivialising any issue. I cannot even bring myself in the debate. What I am saying is that as the previous ...

Mr Kafwaya: That is true

Mr Kampyongo: ... Government, we do not sing praises for ourselves in the manner the hon. Member is saying. So, when I am debating, let him follow and understand what I am saying, other than just getting the wind from my debate.

Madam Chairperson, I want to say that the introduction of these layers of court system was for a purpose. We have the Constitutional Court (ConCourt) which is responsible for interpreting and adjudicating on matters that are related to the Constitution. We also have the Court of Appeal. We therefore, need to have confidence in these courts. When courts start operating in the manner that they undermine each other through the decisions that are made, it becomes a challenge to the members of the public. The role of the Court of Appeal must be very clear. As we appropriate funds to that court, its role should not be compromised just as we appropriate resources to the higher courts. So, let us not create what would seem to be organised confusion amongst these layers of court systems that have been created.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister has allocated about K583,445,071 to Adjudication Services Programme, and this is for both non-constitutional and constitutional adjudication. These resources do not seem adequate.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister needs to ensure that he funds these programmes because they are very critical for the citizens of this country. I want to end by echoing what my hon. Colleague, Mr Mutotwe Kafwaya spoke about. Again, it is something bordering on the doctrine of separation of powers. Indeed, institutions must be respected for what they are. The hon. Minister of Justice has got the responsibility to protect the people in the Judiciary. As he may know, when they are bombarded by the public, they cannot speak for themselves. So, he must play that role of ensure that the environment is created for these people to dispense justice without looking over their shoulders or without fear or favour.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the Vote for the Ministry of Justice and that of the Judiciary. As I support the Vote, I have noted with interest that today, I am being reminded of the story of Saul in the Bible, who eventually became Paul. I have heard confessions on the Floor of this House, confessions which have made me think that my hon. Colleagues are now born again.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, all of us are alive to the happenings during the reign of the Patriotic Front (PF). We, on your right, are still not happy with the happenings that occurred during their reign. When our President was invited to go to court, there was a lot of brutality and pain that was inflicted. So, as they remind us of what is happening now, please, can they confess their sins pertaining to what they have done in the past.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, please let us be focused on the Budget. You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I responding to the issues that were raised. It was said by hon. Chitotela and others, that we should not allow brutality at courts. We should not allow incidences that undermine courts. I am just responding and I am agreeing with them that such things should not happen. However, I am reminding them of the atrocities they committed under their reign.

Madam Chairperson, under their reign, we lost lives. Under their reign, prosecutors were killed. We have not forgotten.

Madam Chairperson, we are also being reminded that we should not interfere in the Judiciary. I want to state that we have never interfered in the Judiciary. We are being told and lambasted that we went to Kabushi and Kwacha to campaign, when we should have known the ruling of the court.

Madam Chairperson, we do not sit with the courts to know what their rulings will be.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We wait for the courts to make a pronouncement. Once a pronouncement is made, we adhere to the pronouncement and the rulings of the court.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is the independence of the Judiciary. We will not go to the courts to find out what the ruling will be. We will not do that because we believe in the independence of the Judiciary. The United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, the Government in power, has never interfered in the Judiciary, and we have cherished its independence.

Madam Chairperson, we were reminded of the issues pertaining to Kabushi. We never disobeyed the rulings. When we were aggrieved and we were not happy, we appealed in accordance with the laws of this country, and that is what any law-abiding citizen or institution has to do. We did not ignore the rulings. We went to the same courts our friends were going to. We challenged, we won and we were told that if the twenty-one days has expired, you cannot go further. Like they celebrated over the fourteen days, you celebrate over the twenty-one days.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what we did.

Madam Chairperson, we have never interfered in the Judiciary and we have no intention to do that. My colleague, the hon. Minister of Justice, has never interfered in the Judiciary and he has abided.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Sit down!

Mr Mwiimbu: As a citizen of this country–

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mung’andu, I had ruled that we are not going to have points of order because we are not making progress. We gave you an opportunity to debate. In fact, this time around, we had many debaters from the left than from the right. So, really, I do not know why we should again go backwards and look at the points of order, which are going to derail us. We will not make progress.

Hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, if possible, please, stick to the budget.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, our responsibility as the Front Bench is to respond to the issues that were raised by them, and that is what I am doing with your permission.

Madam Chairperson, there was an imputation that was made on my colleague, the hon. Minister of Justice, that he went to court to attend to court matters. He has never attended or presided over any matter in court. He has never represented any person since he became a Minister, but there is no law that says the Minister of Justice cannot sit in the gallery. Let me remind them that when we were having court cases against their Government, they used to send Ministers and Private Secretaries of the President to go to court. We never complained, and we never had an issue with that. So, if the hon. Minister of Justice went to court and sat in the public gallery, he was within his rights. After all, he is State Counsel.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I want to state, once again, that this Government will never interfere in the affairs of the Judiciary. If the Government is aggrieved, it goes to court like any other person or institution as per the laws prescribed by this country, and that is what we are doing.

Madam Chairperson, further, it was stated here that the Government of the day is not looking after the Judiciary because it has not increased the budget more than that of the police. The tradition and custom is that the budget for the police is always higher because of the various security issues they deal with. We have never had a situation in which the budget for the Judiciary was higher than that of the police as alleged by Hon. Chitotela. It has never happened. So, there is nothing sinister that we have done. We can look at the Hansard and the past Yellow Books, and we will find that the budget for the police has always been higher because of various reasons. So, it is not strange and we will not suppress the rights of the Judiciary.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Chairperson, let me begin by thanking the hon. Members who contributed to the debate on the two Votes, the Judiciary and the Ministry of Justice. Very quickly, I thank Hon. Mukosa, Hon. Chaatila, Hon. Mpundu, Hon. Kafwaya, Hon. Tayengwa, Hon. Tembo, Hon. Kang’ombe, Hon. Chitotela, Hon. Kampyongo and Hon. Mwiimbu for their debates and for the contributions they have made.

Madam Chairperson, I want to first point out that a number of issues that have been raised by the hon. Members aforementioned hinge on administrative matters that have to do with the functioning of the two institutions under consideration and those are outside the purview of what we are doing here today, which is considering the Votes that have been put forward. In that regard, I will respond generally to some of those, but will not respond to others as they are outside the purpose of today’s exercise.

Madam Chairperson, I want to point out generally that the debate has hinged way substantive and objective, on a couple of matters relating to the level of provision that has been made for the two institutions. Generally, there has been a submission that the amounts allocated are insufficient. Indeed, that only goes to show that there is a need for an increase as we go forward. However, we must all be alive to the fact that a budget is based on available resources. So, much as we would agree in general that there is a need for an increase across the board, that has to be within realistically achievable outcomes. So, I thank the hon. Members who suggested an increase, but let us also realise that we must work within what is available.

Madam Chairperson, speaking specifically to some of the matters that have been raised as are relevant, there was a question about accommodation for the Judiciary in general and this was raised by more than one Member of Parliament. The simple response to that is that hon. Members will note that there has been a substantial increase in the allocation for infrastructural work. The idea behind this is to ensure that progressively, the infrastructure for the Judiciary, especially at the lower of adjudication, is increased. To that end, in 2023, the Judiciary plans to ensure that at least thirty-three courts are rehabilitated or worked upon. In fact, hon. Members will note that there has been an increase from the previous budget allocation.

Madam Chairperson, in short, this is something that has been considered in the Budget and will continue to be looked into.

Madam, just as a by the way, Hon. Mukosa referred to the thresholds under the legislation for the lower courts, I think that was the Local Court, and also other matters related to administrative issues. I assure the hon. Member that the Zambia Law Development Commission is already looking into matters relating to the issues he raised. We will attend to those when dealing with the substantive piece of legislation and amendment to that effect.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Chaatila spoke about the issue of transfers between presiding magistrates from court to court and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. The hon. Member will note that Treasury authority was given to increase the number of staff in the Judiciary, including the adjudication staff. That is why you will see an allocation of K51.6 million under Programme 4199 to address some of these challenges he has spoken about. Indeed, as we increase the capacity of our adjudicators by increasing the numbers, you will equally see a decrease in some of these delays that he has spoken of. I thank him for raising that issue.

Madam, Hon. C. Mpundu raised several pertinent issues, including the issue of transportation and devolving of the Judiciary into districts. Hon. C. Mpundu might want to know that the Subordinate Court is present at district level, of course not all districts, and there is a plan to increase the presence of the Subordinate Courts and Local Courts across districts.

Madam Chairperson, with regard to the issue of vehicles, the hon. Member will note that for the first time in the 2022 Budget, the Judiciary was able to acquire forty-nine vehicles for use at Subordinate Court Level. Therefore, you can see that your Government, the New Dawn Government, is a working Government in that regard. However, it also underscores the need for this Budget to be supported because you will note that there is a general increase in the allocation to the Judiciary in an attempt to ensure its efficiency is increased and enhanced.

Madam, Hon. Kafwaya had very interesting submissions in his debate. Perhaps the hon. Member in submitting as he did was thinking about a Minister of Justice who is not a legal practitioner, as was the case in the past.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Such a Minister of Justice has got certain limitations as to what they can or cannot do. The hon. Member might want to know that the Ministry of Justice in fact pays for practising certificates for all lawyers that are employed by it, including the hon. Minister who holds a current practising certificate. The import of this is that a holder a of practising certificate is free to attend court.

Madam, as the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security pointed out, in the particular instance the hon. Member referring to, this Minister of Justice was executing his duty of being a custodian of public interest. How else can you observe and ensure that public interest is being looked into other than being first hand in court without interfering in the proceedings and simply observing from a neutral perspective? So, the hon. Member is advised to not read into a simple matter of governance and assume that something of an untoward nature is being done. I will move on very quickly.

Madam, there was a submission from Hon. Kang’ombe regarding the Legal Aid Board. I agree entirely that it is a critical institution in the criminal and civil justice process. The hon. Member might want to note that the New Dawn Government is progressively increasing the amount that is available. In the 2021 Budget, there was only K27 million made available to the Legal Aid Board. As we speak, now, that amount has been increased progressively where we stand at almost double at K52 million. Whilst the amount might not necessarily be adequate to meet all the needs, we have made a marked improvement and I believe that we ought to be commended in that regard.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Chitotela compared the budgets for the Zambia Police Service, the Ministry of Justice and the Judiciary. I can only say that there is an English idiom that refers to not comparing apples and pears. I think it is apt in this instance. Also, there was a very speculative debate in that regard that perhaps the pieces of legislation that are being passed under the New Dawn dispensation do not bring pride to the Executive arm of Government. Let me say that, to the contrary, in fact, the legislation that has been passed under our care is very progressive. Talk about the Public Debt Management Bill and the Children’s Code Bill, which sat from 2011 to date before it could be enacted. Our colleagues were unable to do so. We are very proud of these progressive Bills and we are happy that they passed the test of what the people of Zambia would like.

Madam, Hon. Kampyongo spoke about courts undermining each other. I think it is important for us to allay some of these misrepresentations. The courts in Zambia are hierarchical in nature, meaning there can never be a conflict between what a lower court says and what a superior court says. So, the public should not be misled by this sort of debate.

Madam Chairperson, I agree with Hon. Mwiimbu on all the points that he raised and all in all, I submit that hon. Members of this House do support Votes 18 and 31, Judiciary and Ministry of Justice for the progressive provisions that have been put in there so as to ensure the effectiveness of the two institutions.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 31 (Ministry of Justice – K66,970,117)

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4166, Sub-Programme 03 – Transfers, Sub sub-Programme 03 – Legal Aid Board – K50,479,575. The hon. Minister has allocated K50,479,575 for the Legal Aid Board. How many new lawyers will be recruited under this Budget and which areas are they going to be assigned to?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, the Legal Aid Board has in the 2022 Budget opened five new offices. The intention is that more will be opened. The exact number of advocates that will be employed is going to be commensurate to the number of offices that are present. So, as we devolve, the number will increase within the Budget allocation of K50 million.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarity on Programme 4165 –

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I drew the hon. Minister to page 357, Table 2, Budget Allocation by Programme. May I have clarification on Programme 4165 – Legal Services – K784,007,731. I have noticed that there is an increase from the allocation in 2022 representing a percentage of 36 per cent. In addition, Programme 4199 – Management and Support Services – K36,777,007. There is an increase in the allocation, representing –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

There are too many loud voices disturbing the hon. Member on the Floor. Can we have order in the House so that we make progress.

Mr Mukosa, please, continue.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, there is an increase in allocation from 2022 to 2023 of about 113 per cent. Could the hon. Minister enlighten us on what has necessitated these two increases?

Mr Haimbe, SC: Madam Chairperson, the allocation to Programme 4165 – Legal Services – K784,007,73 will facilitate the implementation of activities contributing to the promotion of a responsive legal framework through drafting legislation, promoting adherence and observance of domestic and international law agreements, administering estates, providing legal representation, prosecutorial and advisory services, providing legal education and investigation allegations of misconduct against judicial officers. The allocation also caters for payments under the compensation fund, which is, where you see a big increase. More funds have been allocated to the compensation fund from K300 million in 2022, to K500 million in 2023. The hon. Member might wish to note that the reason for increasing the allocation to the compensation fund is because of the historical debt which we found –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members on my right, we are being disturbed by the loud voices.

Hon. Member interjected.

The Chairperson: Yeah! We need to make progress. We are allowed to consult, but in low voices, so that the Business of the House is not disturbed.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Chairperson, I was saying this increase is necessary because we have a historic debt which we found and inherited. As a responsible Government, we have to effectively dismantle it. This debt, you may wish to note, and the people of Zambia might also wish to note, that it stands K4.3 billion from the previous Governments. It is us now that are resolving it. Hence seeing that jump in the budget allocation.

Madam Chairperson, Programme 4199 – Management and Support Services – K36,777,007is meant to cater for administrative costs, for support functions such as transport and logistics, but more to the point, you will recall that in my statement, I referred to the devolution of the Attorney-General’s Chambers. So, this amount, predominantly, will address the administrative requirements that is engaging of additional staff and equipment to support those offices.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Chairperson, I am on page 356, Table 1, Budget Allocation by Classification, Item 21 – Personal Emoluments. In 2021, the allocation was K31 million, in 2022, it was K35 million and in 2023, it was K46 million. There is an increment of about K5.8 million. Looking at this increment, I want to find out why is the increment so minimal considering that the cost of goods and services in our country has gone up for example, fuel. Does the hon. Minister have any plans to increase salaries for our staff in the Ministry of Justice? If yes, why this minimal increment?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member of that question. I would like to give a little bit of a historic background as well to this. As he has quite rightly noted, this programme head for personal emoluments and over a period of time, we have seen that personnel emoluments for civil servants were not increased for a very long time. So, this, including the increase that we saw in 2022, is a step in the right direction. Much as we would want to say that we can increase twofold, threefold or twentyfold, we have to be realistic. As the hon. Member may be aware, the budgeting process is dependent upon taking projections based on what has transpired in the past. So, the amount that you see here, though you referred to it as minimal, is a reflection of a benchmarking exercise. One cannot just simply increase emoluments willy-nilly for any class of employees, not least the civil servants and the staff in the ministry of Justice. Suffice to say however, that we are committed and have shown the commitment towards improved emoluments for all civil servants as the New Dawn Government and, indeed, as Ministry of Justice we continue to speak and push on behalf of our colleagues that we work with. As we speak now, I think, the hon. Member maybe aware that we are in the period when these matters are under consideration for the forth-coming period. So, we will continue to see increments from time to time.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4165, Sub-programme 03, Sub sub-programme Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education – 2,264,374. We see that the amount has been static from 2021, 2022 and 2023. Just as the results are at ZIALE where it is always one or two people who pass.

Laughter

Ms Nyirenda: Could there be a reason why this amount is not changing and we are not seeing any improvements in the number of counsels who are being admitted to the Bar.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Chairperson, with due respect, I would like to see what research has been done in order to link or form a nexus between the standard of legal education and the amount allocated. Suffice to say that the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE) is one of those statutory bodies under the Ministry of Justice and this allocation takes care of the provision of personal emoluments. As you would know, there is a single campus. It has not devolved beyond that single campus. There is a set number of courses, I believe there are eleven courses, meaning that you have a set number of lecturers and that all those parameters that would ordinarily feed into the cost centre are static. So, you would not expect where you have not introduced new courses or new staff or any significant change in the operations of the institution, to see an exponential increase in the budgetary allocation. This is what explains the static nature.

Let me also add that the quality of persons who are employed by ZIALE remains at high level. It is a matter of ensuring that the students who come in apply themselves a little bit more in order to see those results improve.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

We want to make progress. Maybe, for your own information, if you want to consult loudly, you can even walk out and come back, instead of disturbing work in the House. You are allowed to move out and come back.

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Chairperson, I will take you to page 223. I seek clarification on Programme 4199, Sub-Programme 006 – Planning, Policy Coordination and Information Management – K11,224,323.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, which page are you on?

Mr Simumba: Madam Chairperson, page 223.

The Chairperson: Mr Simumba, we are now on the Ministry of Justice.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 366, Programme 4199, Sub-Programme 9002 – Human Resource Management and Administration – K16,150,254. I take note that when the hon. Minister was responding to the hon. Colleague a while ago, he said that these increases are based on benchmarking. You have to look back at where you are coming from, and use the benchmarks, which were arrived at.

Now, in 2021, this Sub-Programme was allocated K4,132,554, and in 2022, the current year, it was allocated K6,382,283, which is a 54.4 per cent increase. If that were the benchmark, my expectation would have been that in the 2023 Budget, the figure would be around that area. Now, this amount has jumped to K16,150,254, representing a percentage increase of 153 per cent, which is very far from 54.4 per cent. What would be the reason for this jump?

Mr Haimbe: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member has referred first of all, to the 2021 Budget. It is quite evident that in 2021, there was growth under-budgeting because of clear priorities that were different from those of the New Dawn Government. So, as you have seen from the progression rates that the hon. Member has referred to, we have an increase in 2022 to K6,382,283. In 2022, devolution or decentralisation had not begun.

So, the simple answer to his question is that the exponential increase to K16,150.254 that he sees in the 2023 Budget is because now, we will open all the ten provincial centres under the Attorney General’s Chambers. Of course, like I have explained earlier, that entails that everything else increases because we need support staff and additional Advocates in those offices. For example, in larger centres like Livingstone, we expect to see a Principle State Advocate, a State Advocate and Senior State Advocate. So, we increase the number of people that we have on the ground in order to increase service delivery for the benefit of the people of Zambia. That K16,150.254 is expected to work in that regard.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr P. Phiri (Mkaika): Madam Speaker, I seek clarification on page 359, Programme 4165, Sub-Programme 02 – General Operations – K23,460,200. May I know why there is that decrease in the allocation?

Mr Haimbe: Madam Chairperson, can the hon. Member kindly repeat the specific programme. I did not follow.

Mr P. Phiri: Madam Chairperson, on page 359, Programme 4165, Sub-Programme 02 – General Operations – K23,460,200. In 2022, there was an allocation of K35,412,552. May I know the reason for this decrease?

Mr Haimbe: Madam Chairperson, my understanding of the decrease is also in relation to decentralisation. Instead of those funds being pulled in one cost centre, they have now been spread across several other cost centres so the amounts will reflect in the ten provincial centres related to that aspect.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 359, Programme: 03 – Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE). With this kind of allocation, starting from 2021, 2022 and 2023, the hon. Minister said nothing has changed for the past two years. In his opinion, is he really comfortable with the performance and passing rate of students taking into account that ZIALE is on record that out of 400 to 600 students, only one student makes it and admitted to the bar. Does the hon. Minister not think that maybe, lectures are frustrated because there is nothing much that comes to advance their agenda in terms of administration?

Mr Haimbe: Madam Chairperson, I fear that the hon. Member is asking me to speculate and to give an opinion which is not the purpose of this exercise. We are looking at the numbers. Suffice to say that ZIALE chains out people who will have an effect on the daily lives of Zambia. Therefore, the standard of education cannot be dropped.

It is about the quality of the students who come through and their absorption capacity. So, you will see that in one instance, you have500 students and one passes, and in the other, you have 400 students and 200 pass. This is reflective of the individual capacities of those students and their ability to take on the instruction that they receive.

Madam Chairperson, I can also confirm that the academic staff at ZIALE are of very high quality. Hon. Members may wish to note that not any Jim and Jack is picked to be an instructor at that institution. In the past, and even now, we have senior legal practitioners, State Counsels, Judges and other senior persons who are highly experienced in the practice of the law as instructors at that institution. So, talking about the motivation factor and relating it to the emoluments, is probably not a realistic approach because the motivation of those professionals at ZIALE, is to see this noble profession of ours improve day-to-day and not necessarily a financial motivation. As I said, I would hate to speculate, and in that regard, I end here.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4165,Legal Services, under economic classification–

The Chairperson: What page?

Mr Mung’andu: Page 359, under economic classification. May I have clarification on Sub-programme01–Zambia Law Development Commission – K15,630,655. In 2021, this sub-programme was allocated K5,469,850, in 2022, it was K12,580,655and in 2023, it is K15, 630,655.

Madam Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Programme 05, Sub-programme01–Outstanding Bills – K500,250,000. In 2021, this sub-programme was allocated K100 million. In 2022, it was K300 million, and now it is K500,250,000.

Then on page 360 –

The Chairperson: Mr Mung’andu, I think you are going to load the hon. Minister with so many questions, especially that they involve figures. Give him chance to answer what you have raised so far.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, it is related to the other questions. At times, I get skipped. So, when I get an opportunity, I have to ask everything at once.

Madam Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Programme 4165, Sub-programme 8002–Legislative Drafting and Law Revision – K33,299,167.In 2021, it was allocated K9,473,779, in 2022, K42,003,637, and in 2023, K33,299,167. I would like to find out if we will see a reduction in this sub-programme. Why has its allocation been reduced from K42,003,637 to K33,299,167, when we expect more?

Madam, on outstanding bills, is this K500 million inclusive of the retirees who are ever at the hon. Minister’s ministry, or has our Government completely paid all of them? Then the Zambia Law Development Commission –

The Chairperson: I think you are going to confuse the hon. Minister. The questions are just too long.

Mr Mung’andu: Let me end here.

The Chairperson: Yes, please. Let us not load the hon. Minister with questions from one person.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Chairperson, may I be allowed to begin with the last one, the K33.9 million decrease. The answer is very simple. In the 2022 budgetary allocation, K20 million was put aside for the consolidation and printing of the revised edition of the Laws of Zambia and that activity is not going to be undertaken.

Madam Chairperson, on the increase to K500 million under liabilities in relation to the Compensation Fund, which has been increased from K200 million to K500 million, in the Compensation Fund, as I mentioned, there are various historical debts. Amongst them, there are different classes of persons who are owed by the Government of the Republic of Zambia on account of legal matters. Some of them indeed, include voluntary separatees, and others are litigants. Some of them arose from the activities of the Ministry of Home Affairs then, when there were many people...

Laughter

Mr Haimbe, SC.: ...who suffered brutality at the hands of the Zambia Police Service and sought compensation. So, that is the general picture that you see.

Laughter

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member can remind me of the first question, my apologies. I believe –

The Chairperson: That is the problem of loading the hon. Minister with so many questions.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice has allocated money towards good governance and human rights.

The Chairperson: Mr Kangombe, start with the page number, and then state the programme.

Mr Kang’ombe: Page 357. May I have clarification on Programme 4166 – Good Governance and Human Rights– K66,970,117. Does the Government plan to undertake constitutional reforms under this item?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Chairperson, this will also answer the question from the previous speaker on legislative drafting that was previously referred to. Good Governance deals specifically with matters relating to the upholding of the rule of law and there are various activities that need to be undertaken under the Good Governance Pillar, under the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP).

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 358, Programme4165, Sub-programme8002 – Legislative Drafting and Law Revision – K33,299,167. This year, K42,003,637 was allocated to this programme, but next year, the hon. Minister has allocated K33,299,167. Does it mean that next year, we will see less legislative drafting and law revision?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for Pambashe. I think he may not have been listening to the immediate past question because I answered that question. I said that the amount has been reduced to K33 million because in the forthcoming year, in 2023, we will not print a revised version of the laws. That has already been undertaken. K20 million was allocated for that exercise but we are not repeating it, and that is why we see the reduction.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: I will take the last one question from Mr Simumba.

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 366, on Programme 4199, Sub-programme 9006–Planning Policy and Co-ordination – K6,500,241. In 2021, the budget for this programme was K2,125,611, and in 2022, it wasK2,142,642. However, in 2023, the hon. Minister proposes to spend K6,500,241 on this programme. What new planning policies are going to be undertaken for the amount to be increased to K6,500,241?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Chairperson, the allocation is meant to cater for increased planning activities and policy coordination. For example, there is a new National Governance Policy that is being developed and will require implementation which, of course, entails cost centres relating to that. There is the Communication Strategy and African Peer Review Mechanism Second Country Report that we anticipate we are going to undertake. We essentially want to be able to show the outcomes of our diligence in ensuring that the governance pillar, in accordance with the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), is being properly administered. That work, of course, requires a sailing up of the programme implementation and that is what is driving that cost up by circa K 2 million.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K275,248,633)

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Madam Chairperson, I thank you most sincerely for giving me this opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the 2023 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development under Vote 14.

Madam, as you are aware, mining has continued to be the mainstay of Zambia’s economy accounting for 17.5 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP) and over 70 per cent of foreign exchange earnings in 2021. Therefore, the role of this sector in fostering economic development cannot be over-emphasised.

Madam Chairperson, I inform the House that the functions of the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development are drawn from the Government Special Gazette Notice No. 1123 of 24^thSeptember, 2021. These are as follows:

cadastral survey and exploration;
explosives policy;
geological survey and mapping;
mineral exploration;
mineral processing and research;
mines and mineral development;
mines and mineral policy;
mines safety;
petroleum exploration and mining; and
precious metal mining.

Madam, in presenting the policy statement, let me give the performance review for the year 2022.

Madam Chairperson, the ministry was allocated a total of K95,923,142 and of this amount, a total of K93,502,856 representing 97.5 percent was released as of 31^st October, 2022.During the period under review, the ministry implemented various interventions aimed at stimulating productivity and growth of the mining sector in line with the aspirations of the United Party for National Development (UPND) Administration which includes the attainment of 3 million metric tonnes of copper production annually in the next ten years.

As such, the ministry formulated a new Mineral Resources Development Policy and commenced the process of formulating a National Petroleum Policy. The ministry also undertook the process of reviewing and developing various legal frameworks aimed at enhancing the regulation of the mining sector such as the Mines and Minerals Development Act No. 11of 2015, the Explosives Act of 1974, the Geoscientist Act, local content regulations as well as the Mines and Minerals (Environmental) Regulations No 29 of 1997.

Madam, as you are aware, new developments in the mining sector have taken place in recent years necessitating various reforms in Zambia. Consequently, the ministry commenced the process of establishing the Mineral Regulatory Commission to effectively and efficiently regulate the mining sector and formulated an Integrated Artisanal and Small-Scale Mining and Marketing Development Model aimed at formalising the artisanal and small-scale mining sector in Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, other reforms undertaken during the period under review include restructuring the mining cadastre system to ensure efficiency in the issuance of mining licenses as well as enhance transparency, accountability and integrity in the issuance and management of mining licenses. The ministry also commenced the process of streamlining the administration of the Environmental Protection Fund to enable it to adequately address environmental liabilities post-mining activities.

Madam, to ensure increased availability of geological information and promote investment in the mining sector, the ministry undertook geological mapping in the North-Western Province and Luapula Province. Currently, the ministry is planning to conduct geological mapping in the Northern Province. This is in order to accelerate countrywide geological mapping coverage from the current 55.64 per cent.

Madam Chairperson, additionally, my ministry continued to undertake the monitoring of safety, health and environmental protection in the mines. These include regular inspections, approval and certification of equipment and machinery and the review of environmental impact assessments to promote sustainable mining practices. The ministry also continued to monitor and inspect mining operations to ensure compliance with mining standards and regulations as provided under the law.

Madam, during the period under review, the ministry continued to prioritise the promotion of artisanal and small-scale mining through the provision of technical services and formalisation through the creation of co-operatives. Further, with support from the African Caribbean Pacific-European Union (ACP-EU) Development Minerals Programme, the ministry continued to build capacity of artisanal and small-scale miners through skills development, provision of equipment and small grants.

Madam Chairperson, despite the achievements, the ministry encountered a number of challenges which include the effects of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic which negatively affected the implementation of some programmes and projects. Low staffing levels and inadequate institutional the capacity also affected the ministry's ability to effectively regulate the mining sector.

Madam Chairperson, in 2023, the ministry seeks to scale up the implementation of various policy, legislative and institutional reforms in order to continue revitalising the mining sector in Zambia. The ministry has been allocated K275,248,633 in 2023 representing an increase of more than 100 percent from last year's Budget allocation.

Madam, the ministry will implement six programmes, namely:

(a) mineral resource development and management;

(b) mines safety health environment;

(c) mines development and management;

(d) mines technical services;

(e) petroleum exploration and management; and

(d) support services.

The programmes are anchored on the aspirations of the Government in line with the economic transformation agenda. The focus for 2023 will include setting up the Mineral Regulatory Commission in order to streamline the regulation of the mining sector.

The ministry will also implement the integrated artisanal and small-scale mining and marketing development model to ensure that the artisanal and small-scale mining sector is formalised and contribute significantly to economic development.

Other priorities will include intensifying geological mapping and mineral exploration, promotion of value addition and increased participation of Zambians in the mineral value chain. These interventions will be key in ensuring that the sector yet again, becomes the hub of the country’s socio-economic development. Further, to ensure that the geophysical data is generated in order to promote and attract investment in the upstream petroleum sector, the ministry will undertake the petroleum exploration programme. This is aimed at ensuring that the ministry enhances monitoring and inspection of petroleum exploration license areas to ensure compliance.

Madam, to ensure sustainable development and management of mineral resources in Zambia, the ministry will continue to grant mining and non-mining rights to artisanal, small and large-scale mines as well as monitoring and auditing of oil exploration and mining processing operations. I wish to state that my ministry is reflective of the national priorities as outlined in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) and other national policy documents such as the National Mineral Resource Development Policy. I, therefore, call upon on the august House to support and approve the 2023 estimates of expenditure for my ministry as the sector has enormous potential to contribute to wealth creation and poverty reduction.

Madam Chairperson, as the New Dawn Administration, under the able leadership of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, I wish to take this opportunity to assure this House and the people of Zambia at large that the Government remains committed to ensuring that the mining sector plays a critical role in contributing to the socio-economic development of our country without leaving anyone behind.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Chairperson, thank you for allowing the people of Mwemebzhi to put their weight on this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I will just speak about a few issues pertaining to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. I will, first of all, look at the issue of the Geological Survey Department. Hon. Minister, if we look at the money which is given to the Geological Survey Department for mapping, any geologist or a person who is serious about opening new areas of mining will see that the money which has been given is too little. Therefore, the hon. Minister will note that some people will wake up in the morning and say that they have discovered gold in Mumbwa, in Chibombo or somewhere whilst our geologists are camped in their offices at the Geological Survey Department. What we want, hon. Minister, is to make sure that the budget for the department is actually enhanced because geological survey is the birth of all mines and mining activities. If we do not give adequate money to the Geological Survey Department, we might be dreaming of 3 million tonnes of copper production because we have not put enough money where it is supposed to be.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Therefore, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Development, working together with the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development must see to it that the Geological Survey Department is actually equipped adequately.

Madam Chairperson, for the past five or six years, I have been passing through the Geological Survey Department. I find land cruiser sparked from June to June. It is not a good thing to find a geologist in the office. By April or May, geologists are supposed to be packing their bags and only coming back when the rainy season is starting in December. People neglected the Geological Survey Department. You find all the land cruisers on stones. Therefore, I urge you, hon. Minister to look into this department, so that we improve our mineral exploration and enhance the idea of opening new mines. If we do not do geological exploration, we shall not find the minerals we want and therefore, we shall be comparing with the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and other countries when we are not actually investing where the money it is supposed to be invested. I have a lot to say on that one, but let me go to Mining Cadastre Department.

Madam Chairperson, it is good that the Government closed the Mining Cadastre Department. It is also good that it has now worked on it, otherwise, it was a disaster. How can you allow people to own licenses for speculation? How can you allow people in higher offices like yours to be holding licenses in Mumbwa for gold mining, including the small artisanal licenses which were held by the so-called the top click people? How can it be? Therefore, the Cadastre Mining Department must be run properly so that whoever wants to make any application must be allowed to do so.

Madam Chairperson, there are people who are applying for ten or fifty licenses. How can someone be having fifty licenses at the Cadastre Mining Department? When you click here, it is Jamba, click here, it is Jamba, click here is it Jamba. What type of exploration mining rights are those at Cadastre? We want to see the Mining Cadastre Department where people can walk in, enter the names they have applied under and they will be told to leave chance for others to also make applications. After all, you have not even done any explorations for the permits you are holding for Rufunsa.

We have seen people holding some copper rights in Rufunsa and they say that they are trying to carry out exploration works when they are doing nothing. They go to Mumbwa, Kasempa and everywhere to obtain licenses, yet they are doing nothing. That Mining Cadastre Department was a disaster because it was not Cadastre, but a disaster.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson, anyone has a way of debating. Just keep yours.

Hon. UPND Members: Hammer!

Madam Chairperson, let me quickly go to one thorny issue which made me debate this Vote. Otherwise, the other things I have debated were just a bonus. So, let me talk about Konkola Copper Mines (KCM)in Nampundwe.

First and foremost, are we sure that we needed to liquidate KCM? Are we sure we needed to do that?

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Jamba: Why did we make KCM a cash cow?

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Jamba, I do not think you are expecting answers from hon. Members who are answering.

Mr Jamba: No, Madam Speaker. I do not expect answers from them. Those who are hearing are hearing and know who did what I am talking about.

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, let us not answer the person who is debating. Raising questions is part of his debate. The hon. Minister will come and respond.

Mr Jamba: Yes!

Madam Chairperson, you want to liquidate KCM when you are saying that you are the liquidators because liquidators will start looking at the assets, employees and their welfare. How do you appoint a liquidator who is interested in dealing with the company or business you are saying you are liquidating? How can you start selling copper, yet you are saying that you are liquidators?

Madam, let me explain that Vedanta Resources are the legal owners of that mine because 78 per cent shares are held by Vedanta. People are suffering in Nampundwe. They want the problem to be sorted out as soon the Government can. If it means giving it back to Vedanta Resources, then the Government must give them back everything so that they start mining. Look here! Let me explain. When Vedanta Resources was mining during the time of the late President Mwanawasa, it was following the law and doing the correct thing and mined with dignity. Immediately, the PF came into power, from 2010 and 2011, the mine started abrogating the law because it knew that those who were ruling then were people of lawlessness.

Laughter

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, since the New Dawn Government believes in the rule of law and follows the Budget, let us tell those people to let Vedanta Resources to start mining and follow the mining regulations. We do not want to see Vedanta Resources, a mine which cannot look at the safety of the people, has no social responsibility or corporate responsibility. Hon. Minister, what I am saying is that it is high time we sorted out the KCM issue.

Hon. Minister, it is high time we sorted out the KCM issue. Some of these issues we are talking about in mining are as a result of what is happening in Chingola because of the same KCM. We want to sort these matters out. People on the Copperbelt and Nampundwe are happy with us. We therefore, cannot allow these people who were stealing copper from KCM and selling it –

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Jamba!

The way you have used the word ‘stealing’ is in fact, unparliamentary.

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson, these people were enriching themselves. They were looting copper. When one is a liquidator, he or she is just supposed to look at the assets and take care of the employees but we saw that as liquidators, they were just selling copper and enriching themselves. The Patriotic Front (PF) were thieves…

The Chairperson: No.

Mr Jamba: … who were stealing from us Zambians because they…

The Chairperson: Mr Jamba!

Mr Jamba: … were selling copper.

The Chairperson: Mr Jamba!

Mr Jamba: We are therefore, saying –

The Chairperson: Mr Jamba, order!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Mr Jamba, can you kindly withdraw the word ‘thieves?’

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson, I want to withdraw the word ‘thieves’ and replace it with “lotters”. These people …

Mr Munsanje: Looters!

Mr Jamba: … were looters. They looted our copper in Zambia. They looted the copper, sold it and put the money in their own pockets and enjoyed it. Aba bantu balibakabwalala, muchitonga.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Mr Jamba, even that word, ‘bakabwalala’, I do not think it is parliamentary when you translate it to English.

Mr Jamba: I withdraw it, Madam Chairperson and say that these people were actually getting things which were not theirs and putting the money in their pockets.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

The Chairperson: Let us use the words well. When you say that the PF are thieves, there are so many PF people who are listening out there. So, let us be careful with the way we are using words.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to comment on this Vote for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. I followed the policy statement by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. He has indicated that his journey of targeting 3 million metric tonnes still continues.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister has highlighted that he is going to undertake six programmes namely; mineral resource development and management, mine safety, health and environment, mines development and management, mines technical services, petroleum exploration and management, and support services.

However, Madam Chairperson, the information on the ground is showing that under the New Dawn Government, copper production has reduced. This is so because we have these mining companies that have resorted to importing copper from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) because they have found it cheaper. We have a big smelter in the North-Western Province. On the Copperbelt, we have one smelter in Chingola at Nchanga, one in Mufulira and another one in Chambeshi. If you check internationally hon. Minister, you will see that copper prices have gone up because copper production has outstripped supply.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr Kalobo: Madam Chairperson, maybe, before I go to the next point, let me state that I also followed what the hon. Member for Mwembezhi said. The lobbying that we are witnessing here may not be the answer to Zambia’s quest to leverage development using our mineral wealth.

Mr Mundubile: Nabalala ba tata!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

I can see the hon. Minister is not sleeping.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: No!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Mr Kalobo, please continue.

Mr Kalobo: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that the lobbying we are witnessing here to bring Vedanta Resource Limited back to Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) may not be the answer to Zambia’s quest to leverage our development using the mineral wealth. The record that KCM has is clearly an indication that on this journey of three million metric tonnes that the New Dawn Government has embarked on, they cannot travel with us. If you check on their records, they promised to invest heavily in copper mining but in turn, they went to do something else. They quickly built a smelter and started importing concentrates from the DRC.

Mr Sialubalo: Question!

Mr Kalobo: So, clearly, those who are lobbying for Vedanta Resources Limited to come back to KCM, are shooting in the air. It will not help us because the records are very clear on what we were undergoing with KCM. People have lost employment; we experienced tax avoidance; we experienced under declaration and transfer pricing. All this is evidence that there is no where we can go with KCM. So, those lobbying sentiments from the hon. Member for Mwembezhi cannot take us anywhere.

Laughter

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalobo: Madam Chairperson –

Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Mr Jamba, I had ruled that there are no more …

Mr Kalobo: My time.

The Chairperson: …points of order.

Mr Jamba: He is misleading the people.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: No more points of order for the sake of progress.

Mr Jamba: How does he bring me in his debate?

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member on the Floor, please, be focused but we value your views. Just be focused on the Budget using your own views. You may continue.

Mr Kalobo: Madam Chairperson there is a saying that goes, “mwanangalilabonzo,mupase.”

The Chairperson: Meaning?

Mr Kalobo: Meaning, if a child is crying for a bone, give.

Laughter

Mr Kalobo: Again, if you try to signal to a child ati pyepye, where there is fire, when a child is not listening, let the child touch that fire then in turn, you see that that child will be the one who will be telling the elders ati pyepye, pyepye.

Laughter

Mr Kalobo: Meaning he will get burnt.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Mr Kalobo …

Mr Kalobo: So, I bring this reference, Madam Chairperson –

The Chairperson: …please, let us be focused on the debate. We do not want those proverbs.

Laughter

The Chairperson: I think those issues are not mentioned in the policy statement.

Mr Kalobo: We are going to link them, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Can we please be focused. You have got a lot of experience coming from a mining area.

Mr Mabeta: He is a Gerabo!

The Chairperson: Just bring out those nice views so that we learn something. You may continue.

Mr Kalobo: Madam Chairperson, we did advise here, this issue of the three million metric tonnes. Now at the stage we have reached it seems it cannot be retracted. So, the only thing that we are going to do is to support so that tomorrow they do not tell us that we did not support, otherwise, this thing would have worked. So, hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, we support you on the three million metric tonnes so that we see what will come out but we are very concerned.

Madam Chairperson, I have looked at the programmes that the ministry will be undertaking and where they are putting money. You see, when you are focused on production, we expected to see mechanisms like the mineral value chain monitoring process and mineral production monitoring process. If I may give an example of KCM which was not giving correct results, it has given us evidence that these mining companies cannot be left alone. We need mechanisms to be checking them. So, we expected the hon. Minister to put money in the mineral production monitoring process so that we monitor production because the target is to increase production from 800,000 metric tonnes to three million metric tonnes. So, please, consider this one so that it becomes meaningful.

The hon. Minister indicated that they want every Zambian to benefit from socio-economic development; that is the only way. I listened to the hon. Minister’s policy statement, and I checked in the Yellow Book, the money allocated to the sub-programmes, and the mineral value chain monitoring process and the mineral production monitoring process have not been funded. So, we urge the hon. Minister to consider funding these activities. All of us will benefit if we hit the target of producing 3million metric tonnes of copper and we have tapped into their vision. However, we know that it will not yield any results because we increased production from 257 to 750, but we never balanced our budget and, even now, it will be the same. People will continue losing employment because there is no control in automation and mechanisation. I have not heard any policy on that and I have only seen coherence in awarding the incentives. There is no coherence in the policies that will support the production of the targeted 3 million metric tonnes of copper.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Banda (Muchinga): Madam Chairperson, thank you, and I also thank the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

adam Chairperson, allow me to say a few words on the policy statement presented by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development on the Floor of this House.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to start by debating on the conduct of some officers at the Mining Cadastre Department. Many people have been disadvantaged whenever they have applied for mining licences at the Mining Cadastre Department, and I am one of those who has been disadvantaged. When you apply, the officers there change your co-ordinates. I have gone several times, to see the Permanent Secretary (PS) and the directors so that they can work on this. However, what is happening at the Mining Cadastre Department is that when you apply, they change your co-ordinates. If we are to make progress, this should come to an end, and the hon. Minister should work on that.

Madam Chairperson, let me speak about the illegal mining activities. The New Dawn Government has always said that it wants to empower the Zambian people and the local mining companies through co-operatives. However, there are many illegal mining activities because big chunks of land have been given out in the name of large-scale exploration mining licences. We should take interest in areas where the local people have interest. For example, there are many illegal mining activities in Serenje not because that is what people, but the areas have been taken up and those who have taken the areas are not ready to give mining consent to the local people. As a result, the local people are forced to do illegal mining. At the end, the Government is losing a lot of revenue because where there is illegal mining, it does not get anything. The hon. Minister should liaise with the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) and look into the issue of Serenje where we can benefit a lot. Most youths can get jobs through mining activities, but what is happening now is not good.

Madam Chairperson, the other point I want to stress is that the Mining Cadastre Department should be decentralised or officers from the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development should be going to districts most of the time. We have a situation in which some people are doing illegal mining activities and there is no one to look at that until something is completely destroyed because the officers are only in Lusaka. We do not see the land cruisers, like Hon. Jamba said. Other than the officers in the Survey Department, even those in the Mining Cadastre Department should be going round to see where people are mining.

Madam Chairperson, those with exploration licences are using them to mine other than to explore. We have seen companies that have continued exploring for two terms or four years, but without getting a real mining licence. What they are doing through exploration is mining and that is probably getting things illegally from the Zambian people. So, the officers from the Mining Cadastre Department or the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development need to be going round these areas. They should take interest of the areas where the people have interest in mining, like Serenje. I emphasise that where I come from, there are many mining activities and those mining activities are illegal simply because those areas are under exploration licences. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning can get a lot of revenue from there if these areas are legalised.

Madam Chairperson, this is all I wanted to add to the debate on this Vote and I support it. So, I end here.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the people of Solwezi East a chance to say one or two words.

Madam Chairperson, I listened to the policy statement issued by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. It was well-phrased and it was a beautiful statement, and we really need to support this Vote. However, in supporting this Vote, I will highlight a few areas especially on minerals resource development and the management sub-programme.

Madam Chairperson, the money allocated in the 2023 Budget is quite colossal and I expect this money to be used prudently in the areas of mineral resource development and management. I say so because Pride Gem Mine, which is in my district, is busy mining emeralds. In fact, according to the quality, it is one of the best emeralds in Africa, but alas, the people of Mushindamo District are not benefiting, and this is the same picture for most of the mines in Zambia. What are the people benefiting? They are just remaining with holes and earth materials. Look at Chingola, Kansanshi and Kalengwa. What are we, as a nation, benefitting? People say Solwezi is Kyalo kyamali, meaning the land of plenty money, but look at the road that goes to Kansanshi. Look at the roads in Solwezi. There is really nothing to be proud about that, indeed, we are a mining province.

Madam Chairperson, if possible, we need to revisit the mineral policies in terms of development and management. For instance, at the moment, we have the African Parliamentarian Network on Illicit Financial Flows and Taxation (APNIFFT). This caucus has come to Zambia and worldwide, it has actually been discovered that Parliamentarians have a say when it comes to mineral taxes and so on and so forth so that as Parliamentarians, they should have a voice. Why? This is because world over, there is a cartel that manages the proceeds of mining and, as a country, we need to have a voice. Let me give an example of our colleagues in Botswana. How has the Government of Botswana managed to have about 50 per cent shares in mining from production to processing and exportation? It has a bigger say and we are able to see the dividends of the mines in Botswana. What has gone wrong for us? We need the reforms to be brought to this House so that we have a say as Parliamentarians and can have negotiating power in the taxation of our resources.

Otherwise, we will never benefit. We will just remain with trenches. Every day we see trucks hauling copper, but what are we remaining with? Look at our roads. What is our benefit? That is the big question that Zambians have. Every day, they see resources going.

Madam Chairperson, it is very important that even as we allocate this amount of money, let us consider mineral resources development with keen interest so that we are able to benefit. Look at the corporate social responsibility (CSR) from the mines. There is nothing to talk about.

Madam Chairperson, we, with the hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development, had a privilege to go to Pride Gem Mines. What did we see in their strong rooms? Plenty of emeralds, but how much did we get from that? There was only a small percentage that was given to the nation. Alas, look at the people of Solwezi East, in Mushindamo District and Lufwanyama, where the emerald comes from. The hon. Minister saw the road there. What are we benefiting from the mines? That is the cry of the people. So, in supporting this budget, let the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development consider the benefit that we are supposed to gain from our natural resources. Without that, we are doomed.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate Head 14 – Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

Madam Chairperson, the mining sector occupies a very special place in my heart having been born and bred on the Copperbelt, in Roan Constituency.

Madam, I notice that there has been an increase in budgetary allocation from K95 million to K275 million in the 2023 National Budget. I think this is a step in the right direction.

Madam Chairperson, I will quickly go to the mining industry in the country. I think more has been focused on foreign investors instead of also focusing on domestic investors. Once beaten, twice shy. We must learn a lesson that at one time, the Anglo American abandoned Zambia at a critical stage. Again, Glencore did the same. They abandoned us at a very critical stage. So, I think it is important that instead of relying on foreign investors every time, we promote domestic investment. That is why the decision that was taken by the Patriotic Front (PF) to take over Mopani Copper Mines and Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) was a step in the right direction and in national interest.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam, although 72 per cent of the mines in Chile are in private hands, 28 per cent of them are State controlled. The State controlled mines in Chile are even doing well in terms of safety record. So, it is important that we promote domestic investment in the mining industry.

Madam Chairperson, I also note that the hon. Minister has only allocated K850,000 towards oil exploration. I think Zambia is in a hurry to discover oil because it has been spending huge sums of money to import petroleum products annually. So, it is important that more resources are allocated towards petroleum exploration.

Madam, for example, earlier in the day, I mentioned that in 1986, GeoSource undertook oil exploration in Chama and Placid Oil started drilling, but in the process the project was abandoned. So, it is important to revisit that project because the people of Chama strongly believe that Chama has oil deposits.

Mr B. Mpundu interjected.

Mr Mtayachalo: Mpundu, can you please –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Mr Mtayachalo, please continue.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Chairperson, I have also noticed that only K1.2 million has been allocated towards mineral exploration. I think we need to do more. If you look at the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), I think our friends are doing well in terms of mineral exploration. It is important that since this country is endowed with many mineral resources, we must up the exploration agenda so that we can discover more minerals.

Madam Chairperson, I notice that only K126 million has been allocated towards mine safety. I think there has been a lot of illegal mining and we have witnessed many mine accidents. This is because the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development has not been very proactive in ensuring that it inspects the illegal mines. So, it is important that we increase the budgetary allocation to this sector and I urge the hon. Minister to consider doing so.

Madam Chairperson, I talked about Mopani Copper Mines and KCM. I think this country has learnt a lesson. We have noticed that after privatisation, when the mines were in private hands, the people of Zambia have not derived maximum economic benefits. So, I think it is important that, as a country, we try by all means to own these mines so that whatever money comes from mineral resources stays in the country. That is the only way we are going to develop this country.

Madam Chairperson, I have also noticed that there is a problem of outsourcing in the mining industry. So, I want to urge the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development to work together with stakeholders because most workers are contract workers. The Government is losing out in terms of Pay as You Earn (PAYE) because most contractors pay below the PAYE threshold. So, the Government is losing out on a lot of money. This is also weakening the bargaining power of trade unions because it becomes very difficult for them to bargain in an environment where we have contract workers.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I appeal to the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development to remunerate the workers in the mining industry well. I have been interacting with unions in the mining industry and I think there is a concern that there is no regular interaction between the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development and other stakeholders in the mining industry such as mining unions. Unions represent labour, a precious factor of production. So, for us to achieve the 3 million tonnes of Copper in the next ten years, it is important that workers in the mining industries are well remunerated. That can only happen if the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development has constant interaction with trade unions in the mining industry.

So, with those few words, let me state that I support this budget estimate.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, thank you to the hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development. His policy statement actually provides us some opportunity to give some suggestions to his ministry so that we are able to reap best results from the sector, which is the backbone of our economy.

Madam Chairperson, I will just discuss a cocktail of issues round our sector, which probably the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development has not been able to follow up.

Madam, generally speaking from the perspective of Kantanshi and the mine that we have there, Mopani Copper Mines (MCM), which seems to have a number of problems but the Government has, obviously, mentioned that it is working around the clock to try and sort out, especially the financial issues at the mine so that we can get back into production, and have the jobs that we are looking for.

Madam Chairperson, however, in general terms, the sector has not been contributing as it is expected to. Take dividends, for example. On one hand, all these mining companies bring in equipment which ends up attracting Value Added Tax (VAT) refunds and at the end of the day, when they are doing their financial books, they claim to have made losses. So, on one hand, we built debt in a sector which is supposed to be the backbone of our economy through VAT refunds and the figures speak for themselves right now if you got the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). Secondly, under the environment, we heard my hon. Colleague from Mwembezhi and another talk about the ditches. Mining companies make environmental rehabilitation guarantees, however, the Auditor General’s Report was very clear that a visit to Kagem Mine showed all these ditches which have not been attended to. So, the ministry requires full rehabilitation so that we can be able to get these desired results which he has clearly outlined there.

Madam, let us look at labour in my constituency under Mopani Copper Mine, which has international companies with various contracts. You find that those miners are paid poorly, with some getting as low as K1,200. 95 per cent of them, young as they are, are made to sign monthly contracts. This means that at the end of every month, if the company, in this particular case we have reliant mining and AAC Mining, laid them off or terminated their contracts, they walk away with literally nothing as though they have never worked in their lives. Those are the issues that the hon. Minister needs to pay attention to by working closely with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

Madam Chairperson, now the Government is looking for resources so that it has a strategic partner for Mopani. What guarantees are going to be there that Zambian companies will be able to get contracts and provide the jobs that we are trying to provide in these communities? These are some of the things that we need to start thinking about now because once we find this strategic partner, we will end up worse than we are right now.

Madam, so, you have 600 young men and women, and I hope the hon. Minister will soon visit them to give them hope that the Government is on track in trying to find a financial partner. Right now, they are struggling with things like rentals and all that, but that is a discussion for another day. I am also hoping that as he is transforming this sector, he will look at the issues of dividends, wages and salaries for our miners and how we combat this issue of VAT refunds. On one hand, this company is saying it has not made any money and on the other, it is putting pressure on the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to pay it VAT refunds. We have a cocktail of issues that we need to look at in the mining sector for us to get our rightful benefits.

Madam, even the contribution of 47 per cent towards our gross domestic product (GDP) is not good enough. You have 2,000 functioning mines all over this country yet the ZRA told us that only 166 are able to pay taxes. We have a lot of work in this sector because it is a sector that will give us the necessary jobs we are looking for.

Madam Chairperson, under exploration, the Government cannot find money for exploration works. The ministry needs to find a way of partnering with the private sector, but with very close oversight to ensure that when these resources are found – the way Zambia realised that the North-Western Province will be the biggest game after the Copperbelt is what we need. We are talking about exploration with small figures, but we will not go anywhere. We need to kick in the private sector just as the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was advising.

Madam Chairperson, we need to closely work with the private sector. The private sector has only got one appetite which is to make profit and the Government has got another appetite, which is to collect taxes genuinely, so that money can get back into our economy and provide the necessary services we need.

Madam, I can only encourage the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and the New Dawn Government to try and critically look at the sector, put our economy first, put our people first and then we will be able to reap the necessary rewards that we are looking for. I support this Budget.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for giving the people of Nkana an opportunity to make a few comments regarding Vote 14, Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, that has been allocated K275.2 million that envisages to support six programmes as follows:

mineral resource development and management;
mines safety health and environment;
mines development;
mines technical services;
petroleum exploration as well as management; and
support services.

Madam, as I give my comments, I am a bearer of very sad news from the Copperbelt, Kitwe in particular. For us in Nkana and Kitwe, in particular, mining is our life. You have heard me speak seldomly on issues of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) or human-animal conflict, but when this subject comes up, I want to echo the sentiments of our people back home.

Madam Chairperson, when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning delivered his Budget Address, I did lament the fact that we as the people of Nkana were expecting that the Government would have made a significant allocation towards the recapitalisation of Mopani Copper Mines. We have heard several statements to the effect that the Government is working on addressing the problem at Mopani Copper Mines and we have heard several statements to the effect that the Government is addressing the problem of Konkola Copper Mines (KCM).

Madam, for your interest, my constituency shares part of the assets of KCM and a larger portion of Mopani Copper Mines. So, you can understand the anguish and desperation of my people owing to our inertia to deal with the problem that is at Mopani Copper Mines. Mopani is a simple and straightforward case. It requires recapitalisation. If we do not have the money, it requires us to find an equity partner.

Madam Chairperson, in the case of KCM, it is very clear that Vedanta Resources is coming on board. If that is the case, why are we still dragging our feet? Our people are languishing. It is a very sad state of affairs on the Copperbelt. People are migrating. All the businessmen on the Copperbelt have moved. It is a very sad state of affairs and the longer we wait to address this problem, the more problems these investments will suffer and the more destitution will cripple the people of the Copperbelt and Nkana in particular.

Madam, I am walking with my head down because people feel that I have let them down. When I go address meetings, the first thing they tell me is that I came here to represent them and I have failed them. That is why when I stand to debate this, I say that I am the bearer of this very sad news.

Madam Chairperson, in any case, let me address one of the issues that I have identified to be supported by the budgetary allocation of K275 million, namely mines development and management. Under this, two areas are going to be supported, one of which is mine licensing. K7 million has been allocated for this exercise.

Madam, the issuance of licences in the past has been very questionable to the point where we have issued licences for dump sites and tailing dams to foreigners. I house a number of these in my community that should have been benefiting our young people. My lamentation is that the destitution of the young people in my constituency could have easily been addressed if we had not been that selfish to give out licences for waste.

Even when we talk about the Black Mountain, the question is: Which reckless Zambian gave that mining dump site to foreigners?

Mr Mabeta: PF!

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Chairperson, which reckless and uncaring Zambian gave away the tailing dams that are in my constituency, when those licenses should have been given to the Zambians? If there is reorganisation going in terms of the mining cadastre, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development should tell the officers that there is need to have loyalty in the country. Those licences should be given to Zambians first and not foreigners.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Chairperson, the other issue I want to address is mineral resource development. Under mineral resource development, there is geological mapping. We have failed to harness the potential of this country because we do not have accurate geological data. 55 per cent of the land in our country has been mapped. 45 per cent is still endowed with precious minerals. My Committee went to the emerald rich town of Lufwanyama and people lamented that that area must have been mapped. It is very expensive to do exploration today. That is why I was expecting the hon. Minister to allocate more money towards exploration because when we explore our countryside, we can then allocate mining licences to Zambians. You cannot give mining licences to Zambians and expect them to find the resources to undertake exploration because these are very expensive undertakings. Hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, if it is within your parameter, working with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, please allocate more resources towards geological mapping and exploration because these are very important steps that we must take if we are to achieve what we envisage to achieve, which is to increase copper production.

Madam Chairperson, today, people are opting to go to the lower Zambezi to start exploring copper. This tells you that there is much mineral deposit around the country side. There has been gold rush around the country. Why is this happening now? It is because we have not invested in mapping our country to establish the extent of how minerals are spread around the country. This is where we must be spending our resources as a country.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Chairperson, as I support this Head, I want to put it to the hon. Minister that he comes from the Copperbelt, the people there in Chililabombwe will not let him scot-free if he does not address the issues at Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) and Mopani Copper Mines. I am very confident in him because he knows our challenges. Please, rise to the occasion, now and not later.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Chairperson, I thank Hon. Jamba, Hon. Kalobo, Hon. Banda, Hon. Katakwe, Hon. Mtayachalo, Hon. Mumba and Hon. Mpundu for their contributions because they have given quite a lot of issues that I need to address. Due to time, I will try my level best to be able to respond to some of the issues that have been raised.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kalobo is not even here. It is important that when these statements are being given, people pay attention. The statement and even the Yellow Book itself does talk about mineral production monitoring that will include value chain activities and it is on page 6, in fact, under Programme 2138. So, when we are giving these statements, please, make sure that you pay attention because then, you will get the answers to the questions that you have.

Madam Chairperson, one of the most important things that we have done as the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development was to realise when we took over, that this country has a very important sector which is being monitored centrally, and yet the country is so vast.

We also had very lean offices dotted around provincial centres called bureaus, but the officers lacked the capacity to go and check what was happening, as one of the debaters said.

Madam Chairperson, being visionary, the New Dawn Government has created the Mines and Minerals Commission. Everything that is being raised, such as illegal mining, is happening because the officers from the ministry have not been all over the country or have not been at every point every time. We have now set up a commission, and I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for the allocation so that we can begin implementing the works of the Mines and Minerals Commission. This will give us the capacity to be found everywhere where mining activities are taking place.

Madam Chairperson, we took over a sector that had many leakages and we did not know what was happening in many places. These illegalities were taking place because there was no capacity to check what is happening. So, as a visionary Government, we sat down and asked ourselves what we would do to address the leakages and challenges that are creating many problems for the people, including monitoring the big mining companies that are under-declaring production figures. The answer is the Mines and Minerals Commission, which has been approved by the Cabinet and will be funded by this visionary Government. This will now help us be present, everywhere where there are mining activities. That is the vision of the Mines and Minerals Commission.

Madam Chairperson, we also looked at the mining policy because when you are going anywhere, you need to know how you will reach where you are going. What did we do? We sat down and reviewed the previous Mines and Minerals Act. This is what we did. Tomorrow, I will launch the new Mines and Minerals Act at the Government Complex and those who would want to attend can come over. Tomorrow, we will launch the vehicle that will help us stop illegal mining to enable Zambians benefit more from their resources.

Sometimes, I wonder Madam Chairperson. Certain people who debated should look at themselves and say, “Why did we not do what we are talking about today?” However, this Government’s declaration of intent is to increase funding to the Mines and Minerals Department, and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has increased funding from K95 million to K275 million. It is this Government’s intent to see beneficiation come to the local people in the mining sector. This is a declaration. We found confusion at theMining Cadastre Department, and we showed that we were serious by shutting it down. People made noise and insulted us, but we stuck to our guns because we know what we want to achieve. We closed it down for the past six to eight months but now it is open, and we have cleaned it up. We announced that in the next three months, anybody with more than five licences must surrender some and this is happening. I will shortly sign a Statutory Instrument (SI) that will restrict the number of mining licences that a person should hold in Zambia because we do not want selfishness in this country. This is how we are moving. His Excellency the President talked about a methodical approach, and this is what we are doing.

Madam Chairperson, one of the reasons Zambians are not benefiting as artisanal small-scale miners is that they are not formalised, but we are now formalising them. A document was done and presented to the Cabinet, and it will soon be implemented. This is how the New Dawn Government is moving to make sure that Zambians benefit from the mining resources that this country is endowed with.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, you will continue tomorrow.

(Debate adjourned)

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_______

The House adjourned at 1942hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 11^th November, 2022.

____________

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