Wednesday, 2nd November, 2022

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       Wednesday, 2nd November, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

DELEGATION FROM THE PARLIAMENT OF GHANA

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I acquaint the House of the presence, inthe Speaker’s Gallery, of the hon. Member and staff fromthe Parliament of Ghana:

  1. Hon. Comfort CudjoeGhansahDoyoe, MP    - Second DeputyMinority Whip;
  2. Mrs Catherine Apenyo- Secretary to theChiefWhip; and
  3. Mr Godwin Buckman - Principal Usher.

I, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, receiveour distinguished guests and warmly welcome them in our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

PUBLIC PARLIAMENTARY HANDBOOK

Hon. Members, I would like to remind you that the Office of theClerk, through the Research Department is still in the process offinalising the Public Parliamentary Handbook.This is a book thatcontains briefinformationaboutMembersof Parliament, andenablesmembers of thepublic   to   know abouttheirelectedofficials.

During theverificationprocess, itwasdiscoveredthatsomeMembers had not submitted copies of relevant documents thatwere requested during the registration exercise in August, 2021.

In this regard, the Office of the Clerk sent out letters to concernedMembers, requesting them to submit certifiedcopiesofrelevantdocuments. However, only a few Members responded. Therefore,I strongly urge and remindthe concerned Members to submit the required documents.Failure to which, theHandbook will be published without their complete information.

The deadlinefor submissionof documentsisTuesday, 8thNovember, 2022.

Please note that copies that will be submitted will only be usedto extract information relevant for the publication.

I thank you.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS ON MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Friday, 28thOctober, 2022, thehon.MrSecond   DeputySpeakerdirected the hon. Ministerof Technology and Science torender aMinisterial   Statementon thepoor quality servicebymobileservice providers.     

The directivefollowed a Matter of Urgent Public Importance raised by Rev. G.Katuta, Member of Parliamentfor Chiengi Parliamentary Constituency.Similarly, the hon. Ministerof Health was directedtoissue a Ministerial Statementon the increase of mosquitoes in the country, followingamatter of urgent public importance raised by Mr R. Mutale,Member   of   Parliament   for ChitamboParliamentary Constituency. 

Both Ministerial Statements were scheduled for today,Wednesday, 2ndNovember, 2022, but will now be issuedonFriday, 4thNovember,2022andTuesday,8thNovember, 2022, respectively.

I thank you.

LATE REPORTING TO THE HOUSE

Hon. Members, it has been observed that some Membersdeliberately come late for sittings of the House both atthe start of each sitting and following a health break.This situation has affected the quorum of the House andthereby slowing the amount of Business to transact eachday.

In view of the above, therefore, and in accordance with Standing Order 204(2)(a), which requireshon. Members tobe in the House a few minutes before the appointed timefor commencement of the sitting of the House and afterhealth break, attendance registers will now be taken bothat the start of each sitting and after the health breakwhich will constitute a sitting for all intents and purposes.

Please take note and I will repeat.

In view of the above, therefore, and in accordance withStanding Order 204(2)(a), which require hon. Members tobe in the House a few minutes before the appointed timefor commencement of the sitting of the House and afterhealth break, attendance registers will now be taken bothat the start of each sitting and after the health breakwhich will constitute a sitting for all intents and purposes.

I urge all hon. Members to be punctual.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

RULING BY THE HON. MADAM SPEAKER ON A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR MENYANI ZULU, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR NYIMBA CONSTITUENCY, RAISED ON WEDNESDAY, 5TH OCTOBER, 2022 AGAINST MR M. SIMUSHI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR SIKONGO CONSTITUENCY FOR ALLEGEDLY IMPLYING, DURING HIS DEBATE WHEN THE HOUSE WAS CONSIDERING THE MOTION OF SUPPLY, THAT HE KNEW IN ADVANCE PROJECTS THAT WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED IN HIS CONSTITUENCY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Wednesday, 5thOctober,2022, when the House was considering the Motion ofSupply, and Mrs E. Munashabantu, Member of ParliamentforMapatizyahadjustfinished debating, MrMenyaniZulu, Member of Parliament for NyimbaConstituency,raised a point of order.

In his point of order, Mr Menyani Zulu, MP, alleged that Mr M. Simushi, MP, had breached Standing Order 65, which states that a Member who is debating shall ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.

He stated that Mr M.Simushi, MP, misled the House by allegedly implying that he knew in advance projects that would be implemented in his constituency when the hon. Minister responsible had not circulated any information suggesting the distribution of infrastructure to be constructed countrywide.

In his immediate response, the hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker reserved his ruling. I have since studied the matter and I now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, our rules on content of speech prohibit the making of unsubstantiated or unverified information in the House. To this effect, Standing Order 65 (1)(b) states as follows:

“(1) A member who is debating shall –

(b)        ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.”

Hon. Members, I had recourse to the verbatim record of the debates for Wednesday, 5th October, 2022. In his debate, Mr M. Simushi, MP, stated that he could attest to the fact that Sikongo would get one of the 120 secondary schools to be built with the help of the World Bank, as stated by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning during the 2023 Budget presentation. Further, Mr M. Simushi, MP, also stated that a mini-hospital would be constructed in Sikongo in 2023. He, however, did not produce any evidence to substantiate his claim.

Hon. Members, in this regard, to the extent that Mr M. Simushi, MP, did not provide evidence to substantiate his claim that in 2023, Sikongo would get one of the secondary schools to be built with help from the World Bank, and a mini-hospital, he was in breach of Standing Order No. 65 (1)(b).Mr M. Simushi, MP, was, therefore, out of order.

I thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

Madam Speaker:Hon. Members, as we ask our questions or as we raise matters of urgent public importance, let us ensure that we are compliant with Standing Order 135. We do not want to squander time by asking questions which clearly do not meet the criterion to be raised as matters of urgent public importance. As you know –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker:Am I talking to myself?

 you are aware, our work as Members of Parliament is time-bound. We have the Order Paper, which we have to go through. Today, we have five Votes which we have to consider, and we have to go through the order of proceedings. So, as you ask, please take note of the guidance before you are ruled out of order.

MR MTAYACHALO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHAMA NORTH, ON THE MINISTER OF HEALTH, MRS MASEBO, ON THE SHORTAGE OF DOCTORS AT CHAMA DISTRICT HOSPITAL

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance I will raise is directed at the hon. Minister of Health.

Madam Speaker, I just returned from my constituency in Chama, and my visit reviewed that Chama District Hospital has a critical shortage of specialised medical personnel. According to the action plan, the establishment of Chama District Hospital, in terms of general medical officers, is eleven. However, at the moment, there is only one medical doctor. This medical doctor retired and he is just on contract. The contract is very soon –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chama North, are you satisfied or you having difficulties appreciating that the matter you are raising does not meet the criterion to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance? That matter does not meet the criterion. Can we make progress.

MS MABONGA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MFUWE, ON THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO ON THE LOOMING HUNGER IN MFUWE

MsMabonga (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the people of Mfuwe an opportunity to raise this very important matter of urgent public importance which is directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, we have been guided and this matter of urgent public importance has nothing to do with the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), but I want to say that hunger is looming in my constituency. There is a disease that has attacked cassava. You may be aware that in my constituency, most people depend on cassava. This disease has affected so many areas. As I speak, it has been there for the past two months. We informed the relevant authorities; the Ministry of Agriculture in the district and I have been making follow-ups, but nothing has happened. We have also engaged the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) but nothing has been done so far.

Madam Speaker, if nothing is done, my people will die of hunger because they depend on cassava. The crop has been eaten entirely and people are in desperate need of help and support from the Government in terms of pesticides that can control the disease.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Unfortunately, hon. Member for Mfuwe, the issue of the cassava disease and hunger does not meet the criterion for it to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. Hon Members, I urge you to visit the criterion set for raising matters of urgent public importance. One of them is that if this House does not address the matter, some catastrophe may occur or some life will be lost. Of course, hunger is a long-term problem, butI believe this problem of the cassava disease has been there for some time. Maybe, you can find means and ways of approaching that issue.

Since we are on the issues to do with the Ministry of Agriculture and the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), which has attracted a lot of attention, may the hon. Minister of Agriculture to see how he can engage hon. Members of Parliament to find means and ways of trying to work out a mechanism so that you can understand each other. Maybe you can have a meeting in the Amphitheatre, away from this Chamber, so that you can exchange views. Many people are not happy with the FISP. Maybe, it is the explanation that we are getting or people are choosing not to understand the explanation, but if you go and have a chat in the Amphitheatre, it may help sort out issues. I am sure you can reach some agreement of some sort.

MR MUSHANGA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR BWACHA, ON THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR MWIIMBU, ON THE DEATH OF A WOULD-BE RECRUIT

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me an opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Hon. Jack J. Mwiimbu.

Madam Speaker, the House and the nation at large, is aware that the Zambia Correctional Service is in the process of identifying would-be recruits to be trained by the service itself.

Madam Speaker, the identification of would-be recruits begins with the pre-running. As the House is sitting here, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, Minister of Home Affairs and internal Security, the pre-running in Kabwe has resulted into a loss of life due to circumstances not known. I am being informed that two young people have lost their lives due to the running exercise conducted prior to the identification of would-be recruits.

Madam Speaker, I need your serious guidance on this matter, especially that two lives have already been lost.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Bwacha, this is in your constituency, have you gotten on the ground to establish what exactly happened as an hon. Member of Parliament, before raising the matter onthe Floor of this House?

Mr Mushanga: Yes, Madam Speaker. Lives have been lost. It is not hearsay. I would not know the cause of death because I am not a medical person,...

Interruptions

Mr Mushanga: ... but lives have been lost. It is not necessary to trivialise this issue. This issue is very important.

Madam Speaker:The Hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, do you have any information regarding the loss of lives in Kabwe following the recruitment exercise?

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to respond to the issue that has been raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwacha.

Madam Speaker, I confirm that the we lost two lives, but cannot, at the moment, tell the House the cause of death. I request that I come to this House with a detailed report pertaining to the same.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

Madam Speakerconsulted with the Clerks at the Table which day would be available for a ministerial statement.

Madam Speaker: In that case, hon. Minister, you can come and render a ministerial statement on Wednesday next week.

MrMwiimbu:Madam Speaker, Wednesday is convenient for me to present a report.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Following the matter of urgent Public importance that has been raised by the hon. Member for Bwacha, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is directed to come back to this honourable House and render a ministerial statement on the matter that has been raised following the loss of two lives.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Hamwaata: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for allowing the good people of Pemba Constituency to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, this matter of urgent public importance is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, I received a very disturbing call from my constituency, to be specific,from an area called Habanyuka, in Mambo Ward. I am reliably informed that yesterday, around 2000 hours, there was a heavy downpour. Unfortunately, the only available health facility had its roof blown-off and a teacher’s house also had had its roof blown off.

Madam, may I inform this House that around thesame time, there was also an expectant mother on observation at the health facility. She has since been evacuated to the Pemba town health facility.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that there is money under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) that has been put aside for disasters. Unfortunately, the allocation has been consumed on other disasters.

You may also wish to know that because of the same problem, medicines have also been taken to the Pemba health facility in Pemba Town for security.

Madam, I am a worried hon. Member of Parliament because the lives of my people are at stake. I, therefore, through your indulgence, seek your help.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Since I have been dealing with the matters raised one by one, let me say this: The hon. Member for Pemba, without trying to answer questions on behalf of the Executive, we allare aware, as Members of Parliament, that this is the rainy season. So, problems like this will be rampant. We will have many problems of roofs being blown off and the like. So, maybe, by way of advice, we need to take remedial measures to ensure that we secure roofs and medicines.

Further, when a disaster like this happens, we have a department called the Disaster Management Unit (DMMU). I do not know if the hon. Member has visited the DMMU to take the matter to the attention of the officers there that a problem or a disaster has happened in the constituency.

Just so we do not engage in some form of dialogue, I direct Her Honour the Vice-President to come back to this House on Thursday next week to give an update on what exactly happened.

The Vice-Presidentindicated intent to respond.

Madam Speaker: Your Honour the Vice-President, do you want to respond? We can listen to her.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the concern he has raised on the Floor of the House. However, when issues such as the one he has raised, which happened last night, are brought here, it is as though the Government is aware and has done nothing. That is the purpose we come here. Otherwise, it is important to have such an issue reported to the office so that we discuss and know the way forward.

Madam, the hon. Member said that 5 per cent allocation for disasters has already been consumed. That is what he should have come to inform us. He should have said that we have exhaustedour 5 per cent. So what is the way to go? Since he has brought it out here, I will say that I have heard and will respond to him as we assess and see what is going on.

Madam Speaker, surely, your hon. Members should know how to engage rather than come here and make a public statement for the sake of their constituents to hear that they are working. That is what your hon. Members are doing. Constituents will be happy to see the work done rather than hear the talking. So, I appreciate the concern, but it was unnecessary.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Speaker: I thank you very much for that.

Hon. Members, you have been adequately guided. Please, before you come to the House, do engage relevant institutions or authorities, and these problems will be sorted out.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance on behalf of our farmers in a farm block called Mwekera in Kitwe.

Madam Speaker, the Mwekera Stream runs across Kamfinsa Constituency and has one very important crossing point which allows children to go to school at Mwekera Secondary School. At the same time, it allows children to access other social amenities in the farm block of Kamfinsa. These farm blocks are divided into three: Mwekera 1, Mwekera 2 and Mwekera 3. The bridge that connects the three different farm blocks has been depressed. In engineering terms, I am sure the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development understands that when a bridge is depressed, water crosses ontop of it.

Madam Speaker, I had the privilege of being in the constituency these last four days and I found time to go and tour this crossing point. The bridge currently is not providing the connectivity that is supposed to be provided owing to water crossing on top of the bridge. I bring this matter to the attention of the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development on the understanding that we urgently need to provide a solution to this crossing point especially that we have just entered the rainy season, and the situation will get worse.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence in this matter. We are asking that this matter be attended to so that we can have a solution to benefit our residents.

Madam Speaker: I see the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development is in front of you. I do not know if you have engaged him. If you wait until a statement is made on the Floor of the House, by the time it is attended to, the people of Zambia would have suffered adversely. Hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, are you aware ofthis issue?

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, this is where we appear to be getting into problems, first of all, as a House and secondly, as a country. The country is big and it is not possible to know what is happening in each and every corner of it. We rely on those who have been voted for by the people to make the Government aware of what the problems are.

Madam Speaker, now, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa has not engaged with the ministry or myself, as hon. Minister who sits in this House, to make us aware that there is an issue, so that if we are able to do something, we can do it. Raising matters here will change the way the Government operates in that, all the time, we must receive instructions from the House instead of hon. Members of Parliament, who are part of the Government, coming to our offices and ministries to tell us what the issues are.

Madam Speaker, we do have, in certain cases, for example, in terms of what he is talking about regarding the bridge, provincial officers and regional managers. Had we been made aware that there was such an issue, we would have asked the regional manager to go to site to make an assessment so that we determine what needs to be done. In this particular case, I am as surprised as you are, Madam Speaker.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, you were in the House yesterday but you did not raise this matter. The advice is that you can engage the relevant institution or authority and they will be able to address that issue without much ado. If things fail, that is when you can complain. When you have not raised a matter – If you can come and talk about a matter in this House and we say a statement be given in two weeks, what benefit is that to the people of Zambia who will need to cross the bridge immediately?

I am happy that you undertook a tour of the place, but the issue is that you did not take steps to report and bring the situation to the attention of the relevant authorities. I will therefore, urge you to do that immediately so that your people, the people of Zambia, are not inconvenienced.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good the people of Petauke this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance. The matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, in the morning, as I was coming back from my constituency, I had two tyre bursts caused by potholes at different places.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: You will only know when death happens.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, do not engage other hon. Members. Just raise your matter of urgent public importance. However, without going further, for us to save our valuable time to address other issues, the issues of roads and potholes are a national problem. They are everywhere. If you go to Mpika, Sesheke or the Western Province in general, roads need to be worked on. Hon. Member, all you need to do is to engage and further consult with the hon. Minister responsible for infrastructure, who will be able to give guidance, funds allowing, especially now that we are looking at the Budget. Once the Budget is approved, some of the money that is going to be approved is going to be used to address the issues surrounding the roads.

So, be patient but in the meantime, continue to consult.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving this opportunity to the good people of Lubansenshi. Two days ago, there was an incident that happened at COMESA Market within Lusaka, where the Zambia Police started firing at some people within that area, which brought anxiety amongst the general public. It was alleged that those people were protesting because of the high cost of living. This issue has gone even to other places.

Madam Speaker, what measures has the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security put in place to ensure that the good people of Lubansenshi and the nation at large do make sure that such occurrences are not repeated?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, you were in the House yesterday. If indeed, this matter happened two days ago, why was it not raised yesterday, if it is a matter of urgent public importance? Hon. Members, some of the issues are not even fit to be raised on the Floor of this House because they tend to incite people. People out there are listening and they may think that there is a demonstration against the high cost of living. So, what signal are you sending out there? Please, do engage the hon. Minister first to find out what measures are being taken before you raise the matter. These issues that tend to alarm the nation have no role to play on the Floor of this House.

MR P. PHIRI, HON. MEMBER FOR MKAIKA, ON ENG. MILUPI, HON. MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, ON BAD STATE OF CHINKOMBE ROAD

Mr P. Phiri (Mkaika): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr P. Phiri: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance is directed at the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. It is somehow unique in that it concerns Chinkombe Road which is in a very bad state. Two of the bridges on this road were washed away. This road is on a World Bank project. I have been following up issues to do with this road with the Road Development Agency (RDA) in Chipata and here in Lusaka and I was assured that this road was going to be worked on this year. Two people died last year on the two bridges which were washed away. I was assured that this road was going to be worked on as it is on a World Bank project and it was going to be worked on this year.

Madam Speaker, my worry is that we are now going into the rainy season and if this road is not worked on, all the villages there will be cut off from the main district. Also, the children who are on the other side of the two rivers will be cut off from the school which is on the opposite side.

Madam Speaker, that is the matter. I feel that because of the rains that are nearing, these people will be cut off completely.

I need your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mkaika, what I had given as guidance to the hon. Member for PetaukeCentral equally applies to the issue that you have raised. I stated that the issue of the state of our road infrastructure is of great concern and it is the general state of affairs throughout the county. So, it is not only in relation to Mkaika. As I said, it is the state of affairs all over the country. All we need is to have the money so that the roads can be repaired. The Livingstone/Sesheke Road is in the same state; I do not know if you have ever travelled on that road. Equally, the road going to Samfya, Mpika and Kasama is in a similar state. I do not know if you have travelled on that road, but with this rain that is coming, again we will have accidents and loss of lives. I think it is an issue that will need to be addressed at national level. It will not be adequate to address it at constituency level. Even if we directed the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to come to this House and render a ministerial statement, the road will still not be repaired. However, I urge you to engage. It there was money and people refused to repair the roads, then we could raise the matter so that the people of Zambia can know that money is available but the Government is refusing to repair the roads. However, when it is still looking for money, there is a Budget which is being debated, and then we demand that the road be repaired like yesterday, then we are not being reasonable. So, just exercise some patience, hon. Member. I am sure the road will be attended to. As you do that, please continue engaging. We are not saying do not engage. Continue engaging and urging the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to ensure that he attends to these issues.

MR TWASA, HON. MEMBER FOR KASENENGWA, ON MRS MASEBO, HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, ON EBOLA OUTBREAK IN UGANDA

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Twasa:Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for allowing the people of Kasenengwa to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, I am a fan of Cable News Network (CNN) news, the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) news and international news. According to international news, we have a serious outbreak of Ebola in Uganda. It is not a new disease to Africa but it has broken out in Uganda. We are in the shadows of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) and we are still feeling the effects.Now, we have Ebola, which is in Uganda. Uganda is next to Rwanda and Rwanda has an airline called RwandAir, which flies to Lusaka, Zambia, among other destinations in Africa. Being from the travel industry, I know that there is huge traffic on RwandAir and Kigali has established itself as a hub in East Africa alongside Nairobi. This means that we have so many people who fly from Uganda to Rwanda onward to other destinations, including Zambia.

Madam Speaker, other countries in West Africa such as Nigeria and Ghana have already taken measures to increase surveillance and screening. What measures are we taking in this country to ensure that we do not suffer the same epidemic that we suffered last year and the other year when we had a serious outbreak of COVID-19? We do not need to wait until we have a case to act.

Madam Speaker, may I hear from the hon. Minister of Health what measures the ministry is taking to help us insulate ourselves or prevent ourselves from contracting this disease which is now ravaging Uganda.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Kasenengwa. For your information, the office of the Clerk has used its initiative. After discussions, I have written a letter to the Ministry of Health to find out what measures need to be taken in order to avert an Ebola outbreak in Zambia. So maybe give us an opportunity to follow up this matter with the Ministry of Health. I am sure, if need be, there might be a ministerial statement that will be rendered, but this matter is already being attended to.  Thank you very much for being alert.

That concludes matters of urgent public importance.

______

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

NO FUNCTIONAL DIP TANK IN KATOMBOLA CONSTITUENCY

84. Mr Andeleki (Katombola) asked the Minister of Fisheries and Livestock:

  1. whether the Government is aware that no diptank in KatombolaParliamentary Constituency is functional;
  2. if so, when the dip tanks will be rehabilitated to prevent livestock diseases; and
  3. what the estimated cost of the project is.

The Minister of Fisheries and Agriculture (Mr Chikote): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware that four dip tanks in Katombola Parliamentary Constituency are not functional, and these are: Musokotwane, Simukombo, Makononga and Moomba.

Madam Speaker, my ministry takes prevention and control of livestock diseases such as tickborne diseases very seriously. The ministry has therefore provided funds in the 2023 Budget to facilitate for technical support for the assessment of dip tanks countrywide. Once the assessment is completed and the status of all the dip tanks is established, the ministry intends to hand over the dip tanks, together with other functions earmarked for devolution, to the local authority as part of the decentralisation exercise. The ministry will support the local authorities to leverage the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and ensure ownership at local level. My ministry will also partner with communities in different constituencies to operationalise these dip tanks.

Madam Speaker, the cost can only be determined once the assessment of the dip tanks in Katombola and other places has been completed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, during campaigns, I signed with the good people of Petauke Central that I will be coming to Parliament and represent the problems we are having so that we can be moving together as a –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, what breach has been occasioned?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, are the hon. Members in this House in order to cause you to stop me from explaining the problems I wanted to bring to the attention of House? The issues have to do with portholes on the roads in Petauke Central, which issues the people would like to follow, so that I finish my term well?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Petauke Central is definitely out of order. Can we proceed to supplementary questions. Hon. Member for Katombola, you may proceed.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I thank the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestockfor the answer. The hon. Minister has indicated that the ministry will offer technical support. However, he has not indicated how many dip tanks the ministry is putting across to add on to the few that are there.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, the question was anchored on the dip tanks that are not functional in the constituency. Hence, this Government is giving assurance that we have to make sure that the dip tanks are operationalised in these communities in order to bring diseases under control. So, what I have stated is that as a ministry, we have provided a budget line to give support to our communities, so that the people of Katombola can have those facilities functional.

Madam Speaker, regarding the issue of how many we are going to provide for Katombola in addition to those which are not functioning, this is now where we are encouraging engagement with the ministry. The hon. Member can come to the ministry so that we can sit down and discuss some of these issues. Currently, we want to look at the dysfunctional dip tanks.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the question is specific to Katombola and the dip tanks. I see there is a lot of interest. I think the hon. Minister gave a bonus answer. Maybe, that is why there is so much interest. However, we have to limit the number of people who are going to ask questions.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, just like you have noted, the question was specific to Katombola Constituency, and in his answer, the hon. Minister has included the whole country, which I have no problem with.

Madam Speaker, there is no dip tank that is working in Katombola, and for the ministry to assess all dip tanks in the country, it will take a lot of time. Why can he not give a specific timeframe when the dip tanks in Katombola will be assessed and the cost is known? Then, the same can be repaired on time so that the animals do not fall sick.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, indeed, the question is about the dip tanks in Katombola Constituency, and in my response, I was referring to the technical support that is provided for in the 2023 Budget. This is because the technical support which is provided in the 2023 Budget covers a number of dip tanks that are non-functional in this country. However, the issue of dip tanks in Katombola is one of our priorities as a ministry and we want to make sure that it is addressed.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to issues to do with disease control, we do not win the challenge if we just focus on one place. Issues of disease control have to be looked at in a broader perspective. The issue of dip tanks in Katombola will be given the attention it deserves.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam speaker: Thank you, hon. Minister, although the timing has not been stated.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, indeed, Katombola lies in the Southern Province and we are all aware that the Southern Province is well known for cattle rearing. I am glad the hon. Minister has mentioned that the Government does not look at one specific area for it to control an outbreak.

Madam Speaker, I am worried that the dip tanks have been not been functional for some time, and this is giving room and space to diseases such as the one he mentioned in his statement. While the Government is doing everything, what immediate measures is it putting in place to ensure that it arrests the situation and avert any disease outbreaks in Katombola which might affect other farms in the Southern Province?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, indeed, there is a need to find solutions to the problems the people of Katombola are facing. The hon. Member may wish to note that the New Dawn Government is determined to make sure that disease control becomes its first priority in making the sector achieve the intended objectives.

Madam Speaker, therefore, our extension officers are on the ground to help our communities and give the knowledge or the information that they deserve that as they prioritise their programmes in a particular constituency, they have to take advantage of the New Dawn Administration’s decision to increase the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). So, those are the measures we have put in place to make sure that our extension officers help our communities and farmers to look at the priorities of the usage of CDF.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, since the hon. Member for Katombola who asked the question is satisfied with the answer, I think let us make progress. Hon. Member for Dundumwezi, do you have animals?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Dundumwezi, you may proceed to ask a question.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, the name Sing’ombe is not common. It is only given to those who rear at least above 500 herd of cattle.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibuye: Question!

Mr Singombe: Madam Speaker, I just want to find out from the hon. Minister because even in Dundumwezi, we have a number of dip tanks that we have now handed over to churches to use as baptism pools. This is because the Patriotic Front (PF) made them too big that an animal can easily turn back. So, they are baptism pools. Now, could the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock consider giving a special funding to Katombola –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Dundumwezi, you see why I did not want call upon you? You are now bringing issues of swimming pools by the Patriotic Front (PF). We are talking about Katombola dip tanks. Please, let us remain relevant to avoid confrontational questions. Hon. Member, just ask the question without bringing in other people.

Mr Sing’ombe: I am much obliged, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, livestock health is different from human health. When a person is sick, he or she goes to a health centre. When livestockhas a problem, you cannot take it to where veterinary officers because there would be no space. Now, one of the reasons we have challenges is the lack of funding.

Madam Speaker, will the hon. Minister consider a special funding for Katombola to make the veterinary officers patrol in the interim so that they can assist the many farmers who are now losing their animals?

 

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, first of all, as a ministry, we are seriously concerned about extension services towards our people. We have our extension officers in the camps to assist us with helping our farmers have the right information, including in Katombola.

Madam Speaker, as for the question by the hon. Member whether there is any special fund for the people of Katombola, there is no special fund. What we are doing is to make sure that extension services are spread into our camps and our communities are receiving the services that they deserve, as farmers. This is why you have seen the ministry trying to enhance extension services. It is for the sake of bringing diseases under control in this country. It is meant to enhance the sector.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The last question will be from the hon. Member for Lunte.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, in view of that important question asked by Hon. Andeleki and the hon. Minister’s response that the Government has provided money in the 2023 Budget, which is still a proposal under the consideration of this House, what measures will he take to solve the problems in Katombolain case the provisions are not appropriated by this House?

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, such questions are not allowed because it is not a factual situation. So, we cannot speculate. That is a speculative question, and I think that when people start asking speculative questions, it is time to make progress.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

_______

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE ANTI-HUMAN TRAFFICKING (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of section 2)

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 5, in line 18, by the insertion of the words, “an anti-human trafficking officer” and a comma immediately after the word “Commission”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can we have order on my left.

CLAUSE 3 – (Insertion of Part IA)

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3:

  1. on page 6, in line 24, by the deletion of paragraph (c) and the substitution therefor of the following:
  2. investigate, arrest and prosecute cases of trafficking in persons.; and
  3. on page 7, after line 20, by the insertion of the following new section immediately after section 2B:
  1.  
  1. An authorised officer shall, in consultation with the Director, investigate, arrest and prosecute cases of trafficking in persons.
  1. A person other than an authorised officer shall, when handling a case relating to trafficking in persons, consult the Director.
  1. A person who contravenes subsection (2), commits an offence.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE INVESTMENT, TRADE AND BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT BILL, 2022

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Interpretation)

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (onbehalf ofthe Minister of Commerce, trade and Industry (Mr C. Mulenga):Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 2

  1. on page 7, in lines 8 to 10 by the deletion of the definition “AfCFTA” and the substitution therefor of the following:

“AfCFTA” means the African Continental Free Trade Area established in 2018 under the African Free Trade Agreement signed in Kigali, Rwanda on 21st march, 2018;;

  1. on page 8, in lines 26 to 29 by the deletion of the definition “COMESA” and the substitution therefor of the following:

“COMESA” means the Common Market and Eastern and Southern Africa organisation established under the Treaty establishing the Common Market for Eastern and Sothern Africa;;

  1. on page 9, in lines 20 to 26 by the deletion of the definition “local investor” and the  substitution therefor of the following:

“local investor” means a person who makes a direct investment in the Republic provided that, that person in the case of a ˗

  1. natural person, is a citizen; and
  2. juristic person, is incorporated in the Republic and the person’s equity is hundred percent owned by citizens;; and
  1. on page 10

           

(i) in the marginal note, in line 1 by the deletion of the word "Cap. 322" and subsituion therefor of the words "income Tax Act";

(ii) in line 2, by the deletion of the word "Customs and Excise Act" and the substitution therefor of the words "Income Tax"'

(iii) in line 4 by the insertion of the word "signed in Windhoek, Namibia on 17th August, 1992" immediately after the word "Treaty"; and

 (iv) in line 22 by the insertion of the word "signed in Marrakesh, Morocco on 15th April, 1994" immediately after the word "Agreement"

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3 – (Administration of Act)

Eng. Milupi: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 3, on page 10, in line 23 by the deletion of clause 3 and the substitution therefor of the following:

Administration 3 (1) This Act shall be administered by the Agency.

of Act

Act No. of          (2) The seal of the Authority kept in terms of the Zambia DevelopmentAgency Act, 2022,

                                shalll be used for the purposes of this Act and the impression made for that purposes of this 

                               Act shall be judiciously noticed.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clauses 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 9, and 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 11 – (Trade and Industry Development strategies)

Eng. Milupi: Madam Chairperson, I beg o move and amendment in clause 11

     

  1. on page 13, in lines 8 to 9 by the deletion of the words “of trade and industry”; and
  2. on page 14, in line 37 by the deletion of the word “stringent”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 11, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 21 – (Period of validity and renewal for licence, permit or certificate of registration)

Eng. Milupi: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 21, on page 18, in line 23

  1. by the insertion of the words “not less than sixty days” immediately after the word “registration”; and
  2. by the deletion of the comma after the word “registration”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 21, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 22 – (Investor to notify Agency or non-implementation of investment)

Eng. Milupi: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 22, on page 18, in lines 28 to 33 by the deletion of subscaluse (1) and the substitution therefor of the following:

Investor to notify(1)An investor shall, where for any reason aninvestoris unable toisunable to

Agency of non-implement the investment described in the licence, permitorcertificate of

of investmentwithin thirty days of the investor becomingaware of theaware of thenon-

implementation of the investment, stating the reasons of the inability.

Clauses 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 and 30 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 31 – (Certification of Investment for Tax or Duty Relief or Exemption)

Eng. Milupi: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 31, on page 22, in line 3 by the deletion of the word “certifying” and the substitution therefor of the word “certifies”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 31, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 32 – (Prohibition of Incentives to Investor Without Licence, Permit or Certificate of Registration)

Eng. Milupi: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 32, on page 22, in line 6 by the insertion of the word “valid” immediately after the word “a”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 32, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 33 and 34 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 35 – (Certification of Compliance for Relief or Exemption)

Eng. Milupi: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in clause 35, on page 22, in line 32 by the deletion of the word “certificate”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 35, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 and 51 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

FIRST SCHEDULE

Eng. Milupi: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in the schedule, on page 28 by the insertion of the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph 3:

         4.         An industry manufacturing a product that is restricted by any written law.

Amendment agreed to. Schedule amended accordingly.

First Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Anti-Human Trafficking (Amendment) Bill, 2022

The Investment, Trade and Business Development Bill, 2022

Report Stages on Thursday, 3rd November, 2022

______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission of Zambia – K199,342,774)

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Vote pertaining to the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).

Madam Chairperson, yesterday, we did witness tirade and diatribe against the ECZ by several Members of this House, in particular, those on your left. Accusations were made against the ECZ pertaining to the conduct of the elections that were recently held in Kabushi and Kwacha. There were insinuations that the ECZ was being influenced by the Ruling Party in its management of the elections in Kwacha Constituency and Kabushi Constituency.

Madam Chairperson, I want to state, without hesitation, that the issues surrounding the Kabushi and Kwacha by-elections were a creation of the Patriotic Front (PF) themselves.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, after the ruling of the court. ECZ made a statement that it was going to rely on Article 52 of the Constitution of Zambia. However, our hon. Colleagues in their arrogance decided to ignore the advice of the ECZ and proceeded as if they were on mars. When nominations were conducted, the returning officers in the two constituencies complied with Article 52 of the Constitution of Zambia, wherein the retuning officer has the right and duty to reject any nomination. That is the Constitutional provision. Arising from that decision, our hon. Colleagues went to court and they commenced a flurry of court actions hence delaying the holding of elections in Kwacha and Kabushi. It was not the fault of the ECZ. If they did not go to court, the elections in Kabushi and Kwacha would have proceeded accordingly. Furthermore, because the ECZ and this Government live and abide by the rule of law, the ECZ had to oblige to the ruling of the court.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister. There is an indication for a point of order by Mr Kampyongo.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, this budget has been presented by the Executive and we expect them to be mindful of time. We expect them to confine themselves to the Votesas they are debating.

Madam Chairperson, yesterday, I, and other hon. Member spoke to this Vote and at no point did any of the hon. Members on your left accuse the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) of anything.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, what we were urging the ECZ to do –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I need your protection from the hon. Members on your right.

Madam Chairperson: Order, hon. Members! Let us give him chance to debate.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I am sure, as presiding officer, you would not have allowed any of your hon. Members here to accuse an institution in their debates. We know the rules. We were urging the institution to do everything in line with the law and its mandate as it spends the money we are giving it. That is the debate we had. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security in order to make insinuations that we were accusing the institution and that we cantered our debate on the by-elections?

Hon. Government Members: Yes

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we may need some orientation programmes. Some of the Backbenchers are still behind.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members! I think let us not waste time. We want to close this Vote.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Minister who is supposed to be mindful of his time in order to make allegations that are not founded and accuse us of focusing our debate on accusing the ECZ? The hon. Minister should be mindful that it is his Government’s budget and they need to pass it with our support. I seek your serious guidance.

The Chairperson: What Standing Order has been breached, My Kampyongo?

Mr Kampyongo: Standing Order 67 and 65.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Thank you for that point of order.

Hon. Members, yesterday, I was busy guiding hon. Members and urging them to be focused on the Budget. During the debate yesterday, I got worried about that the members of staff from ECZ who were seated there. It was like they were being accused of certain things. There were some statements which clearly came out to say ECZ has done this and that. So, for the sake of progress, and for the other Votes that are coming, let us try to be focused and debate through the Chairperson to avoid directly debating the institution. You can say something about the institutions, but do not make it appear as if you are talking directly to them, especially when the statements are too strong. They can be given advice. So, with that guidance, I will allow the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to continue and he should be focused on the Vote.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for the guidance.

Madam Chairperson we have a duty to correct the impression that was created on the Floor of this House by our hon. Colleagues on your left.

Madam Chairperson, I am indicating that the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) complied with all the court directions pertaining to Kabushi and Kwacha.

Further, there was an accusation on the Floor of this House that the ballot papers that were used in Kabushi and Kwacha were outdated. However, our hon. Colleagues are not aware that the ECZ, itself, has the power to postpone an election as provided by law due to circumstances that warrant. The circumstances that warranted the postponement of the elections were their own making. It was the creature of the Patriotic Front (PF), hence the change of the date.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Further, Madam Chairperson, there is no legal provision, whatsoever, and I stand here without fear of any contradiction, where is no legal requirement that a date must be on the ballot paper. There is no such legal provision. Further, if a postponement is occasioned, you use the same ballot papers. You do not print any other.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: So, our hon. Colleagues were faulty in their submissions pertaining to the ECZ.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Mulusa: Teach them law! 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, we, as hon. Members of Parliament, have a responsibility to protect the ECZ. It is important to learn from history. History guides us on how to proceed to consider current and future issues that arise.

Madam Chairperson, we heard the accusations by our hon. Colleagues on your left, but during their reign, the ECZ was abused to the extent that it was failing to do certain things, which were under its mandate.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: I do recall that when the Former President was in an area during elections like on the Copperbelt, no other player was allowed, centrally to elections provisions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: During their reign, violence was the order of the day to the extent that even helicopters were almost being brought down.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That was during their reign. However, during our reign, there is order. Players are allowed to campaign freely. It has never happened in the last ten years. All the elections we have held have been peaceful. Obviously, there could have been certain issues that arise during elections, but you cannot compare the elections that were held under their reign to what is obtaining now. Credit must be given where it is due.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I commend the ECZ for the manner in which it has conducted elections in this country during our reign.

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu: It is a plus. We should always commend it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65.

Madam, was the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, with all the relevancies that he mentioned, in order not to mention that in 2016, fourteen days, remained fourteen days when the court said so. Even now, twenty-one days remained twenty-one days. Was the hon. Minister in order to leave out such relevance in his debate?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson,

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Mr Mutelo is out of order.

Laughter

The Chairperson: He cannot think on behalf of the Minister who had his own views.

Hon. Members, we have to close this Head so that we move forward. Many Members debated yesterday. So, I ask Her Honour the Vice-President to wind up debate.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to wind up debate. May I take this opportunity, in the first instance, to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament who debated, such as Hon. Kampyongo, Hon. Kafwaya, Hon. Rev. Katuta, Hon. Jamba, Hon. Anakoka, Hon. Dr Chitalu Chilufya, and finally, Hon. Mwiimbu. I also thank all those who were not given the chance to debate, but were definitely supportive of this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to just rebut some of the issues that were raised by our hon. Colleagues who debated. I will start with Hon. Kampyongo’s contribution because he was the first one to be on the Floor.

His contention was that he doubted the functionality of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) owing to the fact that it is not fully manned both at management level and commissioner levels. At commissioner level, he said there is no Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson and at management level, there is no Chief Electoral Officer (CEO). So, he raised accountability issues.

I must say that Hon. Kampyongo can be assured that despite the fact that there is no Chairperson and Vice Chairperson, three Commissioners are still there and they form a quorum. So, there is policy direction, if need be. As for staff, there is staff, including an Acting CEO of the Commission. So, everything is under control, there are no accountability issues on that count.

Madam Chairperson, secondly, on the issues of the ballot paper shaving an old date, thereby, invalidating the election that took place, I refer the hon. Member to Section 51 and 52 of the Electoral Process Act, No.35 of 2016, which gives legal requirements. The date is not part and parcel of the legal requirements. Legal requirements are that portraits and symbols of parties must be shown and the ballot paper should be colour coded. All these things were present. So, the date being different did not invalidate the election. The date issue is nothing, but an administrative requirement, which even according to my hon. Colleague who was last on the Floor, is not a requirement that can invalidate the elections that went ahead.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue that I will address myself to is the issue that was raised by Hon. Jamba on the commission requiring doing the delimitation of constituencies, wards and polling districts. These, I must say, were done in 2019, and the report submitted to the Executive on 15th February, 2020. That was during the tenure of the Patriotic Front Government.

So, we expected that something would be done in terms of delimitation but they were not able to do it. We can assure you that during our mandate until 2026, we should be able to do the needful and ensure that the delimitation that is required, more so after the census, will be something that we should put as a priority and will be done.

Madam Chairperson, please allow me to respond to the hon. Member for Chienge who was talking about how Electronic Voting (e-Voting) should not be done unless and until it is benchmarked and properly done. We agree.  The electronic voting will not be done until such a time everything is properly in place and that includes the network. Currently, our network is nothing to be desired. So, we shall make sure the network is proper before we introduce e-Voting.

Madam Chairperson, there are several other issues, but due to time, those are the few that I was able to handle. Suffice to say, I would like to thank each and every hon. Member, individually as well as severally, for supporting the Head.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission of Zambia – K199,342,774)

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3431, Activity 10 – Voter Registration – K25,121,200. Last year, a sum of K10 million was approved and this year, there is a proposal of K25,121,200. I have seen the targets that they have set for themselves with this amount. I want to know from the hon. Minister or Her Honour the Vice-President whether these resources are enough to cater for all the ten provinces.

Madam Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Programme 3431, Activity 12 – By-Elections – K45,060,000. Last year, K75 million was approved and it has been reduced to K45,060,000. How many by-elections are anticipated to be covered in this amount?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for that question and observation on Programme 3431, Sub-Programme 02, Activity 10 – Voter Registration – K25,121,200. Indeed, K10 million was allocated in 2022 and in 2023, there is an increment. We have increased by 151.21 per cent, and in nominal terms, it has increased from K10 million to K25,121,200. As far as we are concerned, this should suffice in terms of the targets that we have set for ourselves. We do not expect, given the manpower situation as well as the time, to consume more than the amount that has been indicated here.

Madam Chairperson, on Programme 3431, Activity 12 – By-elections – K45,060,000. From K75 million that was allocated in 2022, we have reduced it to K45,060,00 with a variance of about K30 million. We have done so knowing very well that this Government is not like the previous one where by-elections were being instigated and encouraged. This Government will not do that and because of that, we have limited ourselves to the amount that is shown herein.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3431, Sub-Programme 1001 – Electoral Planning and Process Management – K50,493,056.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry for disturbing the hon. Member who was on the Floor.

Madam Chairperson, my point of order is on the hon. Minister who spoke before the current speaker. I raise this point of order out of concern. The Speaker of the House has been trying to urge us to stop being provocative. These men whom we have, the so-called hon. Members of Parliament, are leading this nation elsewhere. Can they not speak without being provocative? I am getting concerned because you will find that one will give a comment that is not attached or has nothing to do with the Budget.

Madam Chairperson, we need to get serious. If these two political parties want to be poking each other, the real men should go out there and box each as opposed to what they are doing. Every day, someone will say something against others. Can you please help us –

Hon. Government Member: Parley!

Rev. Katuta: You parley things that are proper, and not nonsense.

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Members, let us give her a chance, please –

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Rev. Katuta, did you cite the Standing Order?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Madam Chairperson: Please go ahead, hon. Member.

Rev. Katuta: Being in this House isa privilege as hon. Members of Parliament because we come here to debate proper things but it is getting out of hand. Each and every time the two sides want to be reminding each other of what they did. Who does not know what the United Party for National Development (UPND) did in the Opposition and what the Patriotic Front (PF) did when ruling? We cannot go on like this. We are here to debate this Budget. My privileges are being injured because I am here to not listen to their comedy anyway.

The Chairperson: Thank you, Ms Katuta. I think you have actually advised the House through that point of order. You have already given the answer. The advice was that let us remain as one because we are hon. Members looking after our people. In fact, from the beginning, I said let us try to be focussed on the Budget. Let us look at this Budget and debate focusing on it. So, issues like the ones Rev. Katuta has brought out are requests that we be focused and remain united because we are representing the people. So, with that guide, we can go ahead.

Mr Mushanga: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson, for that timely guidance.

Madam Chairperson, Programme 3431, Activity 1001 – Electoral Planning and Process Management – K50,493,056. I have seen that in the Budget we are almost winding for this year 2022, K23,358,555 was allocated to this activity. In the proposed Budget for 2023, there is an increment almost by more than 50 per cent to the same activity. May I know what has necessitated that increment, especially that most of the by-elections after the 2021 general election have been conducted.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, the amount of money increased from K23,358,555 to K50,493,056 with a variance of about K27 million, which represents about 116.17 per cent. This has increased because we anticipate upscaling the voter registration exercise and other electoral activities. We want to upscale the voter registration. It is very important that we upscale that because voting is the pillar to democracy. So, we are putting in as much as we can to ensure that those who can and should vote have the necessary tool to vote.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Chairperson, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is planning to conduct delimitation in fifteen constituencies in 2023. May I know the names of these fifteen constituencies that will be undergoing delimitation in 2023.

The Chairperson: Mr Mwila, I think we are not even supposed to go down to our constituencies. We are looking at the National Budget. I think the breakdown is not indicated here apart from the many breakdowns which are here and those are the things that we are supposed to question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: If we go down and start asking about small things per se, then we will not be able to progress. I am sure there will be a ministerial statement or something. Actually a report will be distributed that will give you all the necessary information about the delimitation.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Chairperson, on page 53, we have been informed about how the Commission will undertake three e-voting benchmarks and how it will implement the e-voting system. It has further said that it is going to use one by-election for pilot exercise purposes. I –

Interruptions

Mr Mukosa: Sorry, Madam Chairperson. Someone is disturbing me –

The Chairperson: What page are you on? We are lost.

Mr Mukosa: On page 53.

The Chairperson: What Programme?

Mr Mukosa: It is Vote 05 – Electoral Commission of Zambia. I want to find out if there is anything that has been allocated for purchase of software and hardware that we need to conduct the e-voting system. I would like to know where it is sitting because I cannot see it.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I am afraid the hon. Member simply said Vote 05 – Electoral Commission of Zambia. Please, give me an indication as to what exactly you want me to address and not a general statement.

I thank you, Madam.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, to make our work easier, we are looking at Vote 05. Then we have programmes attached to that Vote. So, let us look at the programmes. If we have any query on the programmes, then we can ask the hon. Minister. Let us not be too broad because we are going to lose it. We should be focused on the Vote and the programmes that are there and the amounts of money that have been allocated.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, we have been informed as to what the ECZ intends to do. However, I have not seen where that activity is sitting but it is supposed to fall under Elections Management, which is where e-voting is supposed to happen. Now, when I read what has been provided for under Elections Management, that is, conducting of e-voting and to conduct e-voting, we need to purchase software that is supposed to be used for that as well as hardware. Where has that been provided for? Where is it sitting? Under Programme 3431, I have not seen the expenses that we are going to incur under the e-voting system regarding the purchase of hardware and software that is relevant to the exercise.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for that clarification. He was able to point a finger at something. That will be found under Activity 1001 – Electoral Planning and Process Management – K50,493,056. Somebody asked why we have such an increment. This is exactly it. We have increased so that we are able to cater for up scaling of the continuous voter registration exercise and other electoral activities. This comes under other electoral activities. So, it is sitting there and he should not worry. We will not buy the software until we are able to consult with the hon. Member and other stakeholders. Once we are satisfied that things are okay, we will then be able to get the appropriate software and run it, in terms of testing it.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEE in the

Chair]

Vote 05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

VOTE 06 – (Civil Service CommissionOffice of the President – K14,9991,553)

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Chairperson, I wish to present the budget policy statement for Vote 06, the Civil Service Commission.

Brief Background

The Civil Service Commission is established under Section 221 of the Constitution of Zambia and draws it mandate from the Civil Service Commission Act No. 10 of 2016.

Madam Chairperson, the commission is responsible forensuring that appointments, confirmations, promotions, transfers, re-gradings, attachments, secondments, discipline and separation of personnel in the Civil Services are done in accordance with prescribed guidelines and procedures.

Madam Chairperson, the commission’s budget for 2023 is premised on the strategic development area No. 4 of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) which focuses on ensuring that there is an improved policy and governance environment.

Madam Chairperson, the budget will enable the commission to undertake a number of strategic programmes aimed at service delivery in the Civil Service in areas such as the automation of human resource management processes, compliance and quality control, human resource management reforms, monitoring and evaluation, standards, guidelines and regulations.

Overview of2022 Performance 

Madam Chairperson, the commission was allocated a total of K12,545,145 and recorded a number of successes as guided by the strategic plan as follows:

Civil Service Human Resource Management

  1. recruited 10,270 health workers under the Ministry of Health in order to improve service delivery;
  2. appointed 1,013 officers in the Civil Service;
  3. confirmed 553 officers;
  4. retired 359 officers;
  5. transferred 1,038 officers;
  6. promoted 427 officers;
  7. re-graded, attached and seconded 279 officers; and
  8. established and inducted three human resources management committees in the Western Province, Lusaka Province and the Copperbelt Province. The commission has now established human resources management committees in all the ten provinces in line with the Decentralisation Policy.

Governance and Standards

  1. processed seventy-two disciplinary and appeal cases in order to promote good conduct in the Civil Service;
  2. conducted three technical support activities on how to process disciplinary cases in the Central Province, the Western Province and the Eastern Provinces;
  3. developed recruitment guidelines and terms of reference for the recruitment of health workers;
  4. conducted monitoring and evaluation activities in ten provinces to ensure adherence to recruitment guidelines and regulations; and
  5. conducted technical support and capacity building in ten provinces on management of recruitment processes. 

Management and Support Services

  1. procured computers, air conditioner and printers; and
  2. procured two (02) 4x4 motor vehicles in order to enhance monitoring and evaluation of delegated functions.

2023 Budget Estimates

Madam Chairperson, the commission's functions are performed through threekey programmes:

  1. Civil Service Human Resource Management, which is responsible for implementing human resource management reforms, establishment of human resource management committees and capacity building in the ministries and government institutions to enable effective and efficient processing of delegated human resources functions. The programme estimate is K3,670,710. The sub-programme is Civil Service Human Resource Management.
  2. Governance and Standards, which comprises four sub-programs with the critical role of ensuring compliance checks on the principles and values of human resource management as outlined in the Service Commissions Act, implementation of human resource policies, procedures and guidelines in the Civil Service, conduct sensitisations on the revised terms and conditions of service, disciplinary code and grievance handling procedures, review its service delivery charter, automate its work processes and monitoring and evaluation activities. The programme estimate is K3.722.608. The sub-programmes are:

 

  1. discipline, complaints and appeals;

(ii)        human resource database management; and

(iii)       standards, guidelines and regulations.

  1. Management and Support Service undertakes timely and effective provision of management and administration of support services to ensure smooth operations of commission. The program estimate is at K8,201,235. The sub-programmes are:
  1. executive office management;

(ii)        human resource management and administration; and

(iii)       procurement management and planning, policy and co-ordination.

Madam Chairperson, in summary, the commission operational budget estimates for 2023 amounts to K14,991,553.

Conclusion

Madam Chairperson, the budget estimates and the proposed programmes will greatly contribute to the attainment of a good governance environment. I, therefore, urge this august House to approve the 2023Estimates of Expenditure for the commission as presented.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for giving that policy statement on this very important Vote for the Civil Service Commission.

Madam Chairperson, last year, we did approve an allocation of K12.5 million. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, in this year’s Budget, is proposing that we allocate K14.9 million towards the commission.

Madam Chairperson, I think that from the time we got independent up to date, people normally tend to remember politicians. They tend to remember who the President of Zambia was, who was the Vice-President, an hon. Minister or an hon. Member of Parliament. It is rare that society remembers the people who are behind the success of governance. The reason why we can afford to sit here today is because there are workers who work out there who require policy direction and to implement government programmes.

Madam Chairperson, I want to begin,therefore, by paying tribute to the many workers who have gone before us to serve this great nation under the Civil Service.

This Civil Service Commission that we are discussing today, as already indicated, has the mandate to appoint, confirm, promote, re-grade, transfer, separate, discipline and hear appeals.

Madam Chairperson, last year, a public notice was issued under the office of the Secretary to Cabinet to the effect that workers who had grievances were supposed to write to his office to hear appeals and that falls under this mandate. I believe so many people decided to write to the Secretary to Cabinet, where they did indicate that they were unfairly discharged. They gave all sorts of reasons.

Madam Chairperson, we are all learning now that actually, sometimes, it is necessary that those who are undisciplined are disciplined. We are learning now, and I am sure all of us are agreeing, that where you have officers that are not doing the correct thing, the commission is at liberty to take corrective measures.

Madam Chairperson, I note from the policy statement of Her Honour the Vice-President that there is a report indicating how cases have been dealt with and which categories have been attended to. It will be important, moving forward, that a report is provided because we are here giving money to the commission. We have no problem because we appreciate the work that workers have to do and we need a commission in place.

Madam Chairperson, the report that needs to be provided, moving forward, I think, will relate to how we have been able to deal with those grievances that were submitted. I am saying this because even after the Government changed in 2021, we are aware that people have been disciplined. We have had cases where police officers have been laid off in the name of the President and that has been done by the commission. This is a sign that this, which has been happening for many years, will continue. The way the commission in the old days used to deal with officers that had faults has actually continued.

Madam Chairperson, what am I trying to say? The commission that we are allocating money today has not assumed a mandate today. It assumed a mandate for many years that have passed. In this regard, I do hope that those on your right, and I am sure those that have been in Government before, agree that sometimes you have to take disciplinary action if officers are at fault.

Madam Chairperson, I, however, think that for many years, the conversation has been that these have been fired for political reasons. I wish to emphasise to the Vice-President that sometimes, the reasons are not even political. Sometimes it is just one person who has been inefficient in one’s work. Sometimes, there are people who want to frustrate government programmes. Sometimes, there are no political reasons. Sometimes, it is just the lack of professionalism.

Madam, I am sure people have gone to the Vice-President’s office saying that they were fired by the Patriotic Front (PF), and yet that was not even a genuine reason. Maybe the genuine reason was that that person was inefficient. Even as our hon. Colleagues govern today, they will have those cases of people that will fail to follow what the Government has to do in the provision of service delivery.

Madam Chairperson, the point I am making is that both from the left and where we sit, I believe everyone now appreciates that we need a commission that is firm. We need a commission that has to demand for productivity.

Madam Chairperson, I am happy that, finally, we have an emoluments commission that will reward people for the work that they do. For many years, we have had people who want to hide in the name of being fired because they did not support the Government of the day. Sometimes, it is the lack of professionalism, and I think that the commission has the duty to do the right thing. I hope that no one will come to the commission in the name of being fired because they never supported the Government at that time.

Madam Chairperson, what the Government must demand from officers at the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources is professionalism. What the Government should demand from officers in all the labour offices across Zambia is professionalism. If there is anyone who will bring a political card in front and say because of this, they were not given an opportunity to be promoted, tell them to be professional. This is because at the end of the day –

Mr Muchima: That is what PF was doing.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, today we are allocating money to a commission that has to deal with our human resource in the Civil Service. The service has to be professional. For it to be professional, people who are appointed to the commission must do the right thing. I do hope that even as we approve this allocation, we will be able to see high levels of professionalism.

Madam Chairperson, I have put this matter on record today because I am aware that every time the Government changes, those who were undisciplined would want to rush to the new office bearers and say, “I was fired because I was supporting the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). I was fired because I was told I am from the United National Independence Party (UNIP). I was fired because I was told I am from this particular political party.”

Madam Chairperson, professionalism should be measured by the output of the worker. The worker must give you the right output. If we assign workers to do the upgrading of unplanned settlements in Zambia, they must be able to do that job. If they fail, we have to measure their performance against the target.

Madam Chairperson, I, therefore, support the allocation towards the commission and do hope that the issues that I have raised will be taken note of, even as we approve this allocation.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Sabao (Chikankata): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chikankata an opportunity to add their voice to the debate on this very important Vote. From the outset, I support the increment on this Vote of 19.5 per cent as compared with the 2022 budget.

Madam Chairperson, the Civil Service Commission is a very important institution in this country. If this institution employed qualified people, it would add value to the economy of this country.

Madam Chairperson, in the recent past, we had people who were fired because they belonged to certain regions. We had people who were promoted because they were affiliated to certain political parties.

Mr Muchima: Shame!

Ms Sabao: Madam Chairperson, under the New Dawn Government, we will not allow this. What we want are career civil servants. A career civil servant is loyal to the Government of the day and the Government that will come after. These are the people who hold the institutional memory of the government system.

Mr Simumba: On a point of order, Madam.

Ms Sabao: Madam Chairperson, politicians come and go, but career civil servants will remain. When you have career civil servants, they create confidence in the citizens and even in the international community.

The Chairperson: Order!

Ms Sabao, there is a point of order. Who is indicating for a point of order?

Mr Simumba: The hon. Member for Nakonde.

The Chairperson: No, the name.

Mr Simumba: Mr Simumba.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Simumba: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to raise a point of order. Standing Order No. 65 talks about content of speech. Is the hon. Member who is debating in order to insinuate that the previous Government was firing people based on their tribes …

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Simumba: …without any evidence?

Interruptions

Mr Andeleki: I was fired.

Mr Simumba: Madam Chairperson, is she in order to do that?

Interruptions

Mr Mwene: We will lay Andeleki on the Table of the House.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: I think I guided yesterday or the other day that what we are hearing are differentpeople’s views.

Mr Muchima: Yes!

Madam Chairperson: You are bringing your views, the way you feel; the way you see situations; and the way you saw situations. Those are your own views. So, you are free to bring in views…

Hon. PF Members: Ooh!

Madam Chairperson: …to this House. However, if a matter needs evidence, we are going to ask for evidence, and that evidence has to be laid on the Table. So, hon. Member for Chikankata, do you have evidence of thepeople who were fired…

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: …on tribal lines?

Mrs Sabao: Madam Chairperson, the records are there…

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Mrs Sabao: …in the offices. We will bring the evidence.

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order, order!

Since you have no evidence, you are going to withdraw that particular statement that has brought commotion in the House,since you have failed to provide evidence. Just withdraw it.

Mr Muchima: One example is Andeleki.

Mrs Sabao: Madam Chairperson, examples are Hon. Andeleki…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mrs Sabao: …and Hon. Mwene.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order, order! Can we have order!

Mr Muchima: Put them on the Table.

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Unfortunately, we cannot lay them on the Table.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: So, Mrs Sabao, can you please just withdraw that statement and continue with your debate.

Mrs Sabao: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw.

Madam Chairperson, the commission is involved in the recruitment, replacement, promoting and transfer of human capital. Hence, it is very important that this Budget is supported. For the commission to do the above mentioned activities, it needs to be supported through this Budget, for it to recruit people who will deliver quality services to this country.

Madam Chairperson, for this commission to also work hard, it needs a lotof resources for it to go round the country. One of its mandate is to monitor and evaluate the performance of officers on the ground. This is one of the commissions that have people in all the districts. So, for those people to carry out their mandate of monitoring and evaluating, they need enough resources from the Government.

Madam Chairperson, when we have a qualified workforce, even service delivery will be good in this country. In the recent past, we have had people who were given positions they were not qualified for. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: I can cite examples where wehad people who were not even able to write a Bill of Quantity (BOQ) in the local councils. One of the challenges that we have with regard to the utilisation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is that our Directors of Works are failing to come up with correct BOQs because they are not qualified. If the commission is well-funded, it will be able to evaluate who should be given which position according to qualifications.

Mr Mwila: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mrs Sabao: Madam Chairperson, when you have a qualified civil service, it means that even the economy will do well. One of the factors that bring the economy down is –

Madam Chairperson: Order, Madam Sabao!

There is a point of order raised by mister who?

Madam Chairperson:Mr Kabunda?

Mr Mwila: Mr Mwila.

Madam Chairperson: You can go ahead.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwila: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member who is currently debating has just told this House and through this House, the entire nation, that the Director of Planning who is working somewhere, is not qualified …

Interruptions

Mr Mwila: …and cannot prepare a Bill of Quantity (BOQ). Our Standing Order No. 65, first of all, talks about content of speech. The other issue is that that person is not even here to defendhimself or herself …

Hon. Government Members: She did not mention any name.

Mr Mwila: …against the allegations that the hon. Member has mentioned. Is she in order?

Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Chairperson: Thank you for that point of order. Mrs Sabao is talking about her council in her constituency.

Hon. PF Members: Ooh!

Madam Chairperson: We are not there. She did not mention any name.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Chairperson: She mentioned a position. Since we are relying on her and she is the one representing the people of Chikankata in this House, we take it that the hon. Member, Mrs Sabao, is telling us exactly what is happening at her council.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam Chairperson: She did not mention any names. So, with that guidance or ruling, the hon. Member for Chikankata was actually in order …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Chairperson: …and she is going to continue with her debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mrs Sabao: Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for yourprotection.

Like I said, when you have a qualified civil service, it means that the economy of the country will be on the right path. These are the people who implement our programmes. I will give an example of our Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP). If we have a correct civil service in place, it means that the vision of the New Dawn Governmentwill be achieved because we will have the right people in place to implementour projects.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: Hence, as an hon. Member of Parliament for Chikankata, I can say that in Chikankata, we want career civil servants not people who are affiliated to a political party.

Mr Muchima: Yes.

Mrs Sabao: I am a UPND Member but I will not allow someone to be sent to Chikankata just because he or she is UPND. I want someone who is qualified, who will be able to implement our projects.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: When we have qualified people, it means that there will be sustainable development in this country because projects will be implemented by the right people …

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mrs Sabao: …and we will achieve the vision of the New Dawn Government.

Madam Chairperson: Order, hon. Member. We are not making any progress.

Mr Muchima: Yah, they are jealous.

Madam Chairperson: Very soon, I am going to stop points of order because we are not progressing.

Mr Kafwaya, what is your point of order?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, your House is a very dignified House. This House is here to provide leadership, in this particular case, on the appropriation process?

Madam Chairperson, the information that we provide you and through you, to the members of the public must be accurate and verifiable. While I appreciate that you are here to offer us guidance as you have always given us very good guidance, I want to rise on this very important point of order on the hon. Member who is debating now, who has indicated to this House that there is a Director of Works who cannot even prepare Bills of Quantity (BOQs). The hon. Member may not be aware that the Director of Works under the council is employed by the Local Government Service Commission and not the Civil Service Commission.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to mislead you …

Mr Mukosa: To be irrelevant.

Mr Kafwaya: … us, as hon. Members, and the nation? Is she in order to be irrelevant when we are undergoing a very important process.

I seek your very serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Thank you for that point of order.

Hon. Members, hon. Members, as we are debating these Votes, let us ensure that the information we are bringing out is connected to the Vote being discussed on the Floor.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Of course the hon. Member who is debating brought in the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. I am sure the Ministry has its own commission, although she used it as an example.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: However, let us be mindful of the particular Vote we are discussing on the Floor because a time when we will look at all other Votes. We have about ninety-nine Votes. So, the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development has its own time. I urge the hon. Member on the Floor to be focused on Vote 06 – Civil Service Commission. Let us not bring in other institutions that are not part and parcel of this commission.

Can the hon. Member go ahead with debating.

Ms Sabao: Much obliged, Madam Chairperson. However, I did not know that the aspirating President can rise on such a point of order.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwayacrossed the Floor of the House.

Ms Sabao: Madam Chairperson, we need a professional civil service for us to implement our projects –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Order!

No! You cannot pass in between the Chair and the Member debating.

Mr Muchima:Aah! President!

Laughter

The Chairperson: To the hon. Member who has just crossed the floor, according to Standing Order 204, you are not supposed to pass in between the person who is debating and the presiding officer. I hope Mr Kafwaya has taken that into consideration.

Let us observe our Standing Orders.

The Chairperson: You may continue with your debate, Mrs Sabao.

Ms Sabao: Madam Chairperson, in continuing with my line of thought, under the New Dawn Government, I think, we need human resource that is professional. Further, I think the commission is in the right place. Therefore, using this commission, we want equal opportunities given to our people. What is important is a qualified Zambian who can do the work and implement Government projects that will benefit all Zambians. Hence, as hon. Members of Parliament, we support the budget under this Vote. With these few remarks, Madam Chairperson, I support the budget.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Re. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, thank you for allowing the voice of Chienge to be heard on this very important –

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson I need protection because I do not have time for people who come here through the windows. I really need protection.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your protection.

The Chairperson: Can you please start debating.

Rev. Katuta: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Madam, let me add a few words to debate on this very important Vote.

Madam Chairperson, this is the commission which takes care of the interest of many Zambians like the teachers and those who are in the Civil Service. Let me give an example of what is currently taking place in terms of recruitment. In places like Chienge, many people are unable to access the commission. This makes it difficult for people to see job adverts by the Civil Service Commission. An example is the advert that I saw on the jobs for game rangers. I would be a very happy hon. Member of Parliament to see all the rural areas have at least a small office for the Civil Service Commission in order for civil servants to access the commission.

Madam Chairperson, when we look at the works that the Civil Service is involved in, we will see that it caters for so many institutions and it is required to do other work.

 

Madam Chairperson, when we talk about disciplinary cases, it is very important that the Civil service Commission is decentralised.  It takes time for people who are on suspension to get disciplined or to have their cases heard. So, if the Civil Service is decentralised, it will help and serve justice to the erring officers or whoever.

Madam Chairperson, it would also be helpful if the Civil Service could deal with the issue of positions that are frozen by unlocking them. We see people acting in these positions for quite a period of time but cannot be confirmed. Some people have even ended up retiring without being confirmed.

Madam Chairperson, so these are the areas we would want to see the Civil Service Commission look into to help our people in the Civil Service.

Madam, the conditions of service for civil servants are not that appealing. When we just came here, we all applauded the United Party for Development (UPND) Government for making a pronouncement that it was going to re-join couples. You would find a situation where a teacher or whoever works in the civil service is in Chirundu while the wife would be in Chienge or some place in Shangombo. So, now, we are having a challenge because we had hope in this Government because we thought it would help us build families because we are Zambians and we value family values. However, up to now, I have not heard of wives or husbands being re-joined.

Madam, these are the things the UPND should not take for granted. It should show the nation that it is, indeed, really able to deliver on the word that it brings on the Floor of the House through the Leader of Government Business in this House. So, it is very important that when it is doing recruitment, it should not – Let me emphasise this; the Civil service Commission should not make someone who has a husband in Mufulira to start working in Masaiti. Yes, we appreciate that everyone wants a job. Separating couples is not helping the nation because a nation that does not value family values is a broken nation. No wonder we are seeing our children becoming homosexuals because there may not be a father figure in the house. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta: It is very important that the Civil Service also considers this factor when they are creating positions. I thought I should add a voice to this very important Vote and also respond to the policy statement that was made on the Floor. Please, try to re-unite the families. We are waiting and we cannot wait more than this. We have seen many divorces taking place in our country because the husband is in Chipata and the wife is in Livingstone. So, I really appeal to the commission to embark on this massive activity of re-joining couples.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Ms Mabonga (Mfuwe): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to add a voice to the debate on the Vote under discussion. I want to begin by saying that as I support this Budget, I want the Government to look at how best we can improve the Civil Service. Most hon. Members have already debated, but I just want to add my voice as well.

Madam, from what I have observed, we have politicised the Civil Service. We have heard, even on the Floor of the House, from different hon. Members and hon. Ministers who have debated, that we have cadres in the Civil Service, which is not very good. It affects the integrity and professionalism of the Civil Service. I feel that should end. We should look at depoliticising the Civil Service, so that we can allow these professionals to be professional and do their work. We might not know what calling civil servants cadres does to them because even the word ‘cadre’ means something else.

Madam, people feel they need to do something to feel worthy. That is why nowadays, civil servants are being enticed into aligning themselves to political parties for them to have favours and promotions. So, I feel that even us as politicians, especially hon. Ministers and Members of Parliament, we must avoid calling our civil servants as cadres and politicians.

Madam Chairperson, another thing I want to talk about is that the need for the Civil Service to normalise confirmations. Even now, we have an acting head of the Civil Service. So, when you are acting, the performance might not be equal to that of the person who is confirmed. So, there is a need for the Civil Service to normalise confirmations and promotions in the Civil Service.

Madam Chairperson, I also just want to say that there is a need for the Civil Service to instil discipline in the civil servants. Maybe, even others have talked about it. Sometimes, there is a lot of indiscipline among some civil servants. They have taken advantage of us politicians because we use them at the end of the day, as I have already stated. So, they will be undisciplined, but when another party is in power, they will claim that they were unfairly treated. I have had experience with people saying “I was called a United Party for National Development (UPND) cadre that is why I did not perform”. So, the one who came into office started using that very person, but he was almost killed by the same civil servant, meaning that there was indiscipline. The civil servant knew that if he/she told the politician that he/she was laid off or suspended because of supporting the politician, he/she would get favours from the politician. For me, what is key is that we need to depoliticise the Civil Service so that we can allow professionals to do their work and help us work.

 

With these few words, I thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Chairperson, the Civil Service is not something to joke about. It is the engine of Government. If it is not oiled or it does not run very well, then we have no Government. Civil servants must pay loyalty to the Government of the day. Their royalty should not be to an individual. They work for the country and get money from taxpayers so that they can deliver a service to the citizens of that particular country.

Madam Chairperson, when you have money being delivered, but some civil servants block progress, then there is a problem. When medicine is bought, but it does not reach the people. Instead, it disappears.  Who are in charge? It is the civil servants. When individuals want to sabotage the Government, then they are not civil servants. Something must be done to really have professional civil servants in the Civil Service. That is the cry of everybody else here. However, there was a quote in the Patriotic Front (PF) Manifesto, which said all Government departments would employ PF cadres. So, the Civil Service we have now, we must confess, is a mixed grill. Some are not genuine civil servants.

Hon. Government Member: Yes!

Mr Kamboni: This is why you find that when you bring in a good system to work for the people, you will hear all sorts of excuses such as the system is down. Things are not moving. There is a need to clean the Civil Service.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Those civil servants who are not professional must be flushed out so that the Government can operate smoothly. If the Government does not do that, then we will have a problem. For example, we have a district officer confusing the whole district. Even in my own constituency, that is happening where one individual is causing so much pain to so many people by not doing the work, and doing something that is wrong. Such people are not civil servants regardless of who they are, and what name they have, if that is what they do, they must be removed so that proper civil servants serve the country and the people of Zambia. That is why we need this commission now. On top of its work, the commission should make sure that it has the right civil servants who are going to serve this country well. We all deserve a good service.

Madam, when you go to some of these institutions to deliver a letter, they will lose it. You go back after two weeks, and the letter cannot be found. Even filing is a problem. Then you ask someone, you are a director, I gave you a letter and you lost it. I bring another one and again, you lose it. Which school did you go to?

Madam Chairperson, going to government offices is very frustrating. The workers in those offices cannot get anything done. In some government institutions, typing a letter, which takes ten minutes takes four weeks. Why? It is because we have some elements that are not genuine civil servants. For those who are aspiring for the leadership of this country, never again should you interfere with the Civil Service. It is very important that the civil service be kept as it is, so that it can serve the people of Zambia; our mothers and our sisters.

If somebody is not a genuine civil servant, and he is given the responsibility to run a school, he will do the opposite of what he is expected to do. In the end, you are going to have children who will not learn anything from school. You are going to have doctors who will not even be able to do their work at the hospital, yet they were given marks. This is because when you are not a genuine civil servant, you can give somebody 100 per cent, yet that person does not qualify.

Madam, there is one person who graduated, and one student said, that person could not do anything at school. When I went to the hospital, I found that he was the one giving medicine and treating people, I ran away.

 

Laughter

Mr Kamboni: It is true. Imagine somebody is not a genuine civil servant and he is a lecturer, giving marks anyhow at an institution because of bribery, and making people who do not qualify to pass. Then you find the same unqualified person flying a plane, you will crash. So, it is very important that civil servants are kept fragile. They are supposed to be taken care of properly and work for the country so that we can all enjoy their services. However, this is not the case in our country. You will go from office to office, even just how they receive you leaves much to be desired. It is the same everywhere you go. Even those who did not go to school complain. What is going on? It is because the Civil Service is sick.

Madam Chairperson, the Civil Service was almost destroyed. This is why today, I have pleasure to say this commission has a lot of work. It has a lot of work to make sure that the Civil Service that we have is one that will serve people diligently, accurately and meeting deadlines so that citizens can enjoy it.

Even if the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning brings money, one person will block it somewhere because he is not a genuine civil servant, and the whole system is blocked. Even those who have made so much effort in ensuring what is supposed to be done is done will now sit and say, things are not going right. This is why we need a correct Civil Service, in my view, they need a broom with wires to clean up the system. The good civil servants should remain.

Mr Sing’ombe: A wire brush!

Mr Kamboni: You have people that are not professional even in places where children are supposed to get bursaries to go to school. Surely, we should all love our country. I personally love every Zambian.

Mr Sing’ombe: Too much mpukunyamatobo.

Mr Kamboni: When we are watching the Zambia National Football team playing, we are all happy. We are all happy when the team is playing well. So, we need a professional Civil Service. However, the Civil Service has a huge problem. That is why the commission needs money to clean it up. The commission must go bit by bit and check these people everywhere.

Mr Amutike: With a wire brush!

Mr Kamboni: We have problems. You go to their offices and expect work to be done, but it cannot be done. Sometimes, medicine is available, but someone will say there is no medicine, but another one will come and say the medicine is available. Surely, how do you run a country like that?

Running a country is serious business. It is not only about the leadership or the Executive, but also the Civil Service, and that is why I call it the engine of progress. If we do not clean this Civil Service, we are in for it. We are in for it everywhere. Whether it is in the Ministry of Agriculture or anywhere, just one individual can cause a lot of problems for the whole country. This is why I encourage this commission to take its time, sit down and clean up the system so that the Civil Service can function well and every Zambian can benefit and be proud of being Zambian.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Chairperson, let me begin by saying that, indeed, the mandate of the Civil Service Commission is to appoint, confirm, promote, re-grade, transfer, separate and, of course, discipline.

Madam, from the outset, let me say that I stand to support the allocation of the estimates, which have been increased by 19.5 per cent from last year’s budget, which was K12.5 million, to K15 million for 2023.

 

Madam Chairperson, we all know that without the Civil Service, the economy of the country can grind to a halt. As such, the Civil Service is an important component in the running of every Government.

 

Madam Chairperson, may I make mention here that so many times, we have seen in the Civil Service that quite a number of things do not go as they should. We hope that things will change this time around.

Madam, I will start with appointments. We have seen people, as earlier debates have mentioned, who have got no capacity to run certain offices being appointed to the Civil Service. That should come to an end. We need competent and qualified persons to run certain offices for us to achieve what the Civil Service must contribute to the economy.

Madam Chairperson, we also need to ensure that confirmations are done on merit. We do not want confirmations to be done based on who one knows in the Civil Service because this will contribute to poor performance and poor delivery of service.

Madam, still on promotions, there are some people who have been in the Civil Service for many years with the necessary qualifications, but just because they do not have someone to lean on, they cannot be promoted or confirmed and those who are joining the Civil Service are seeing themselves above these people, which brings a lot of frustration. We hope that this time around, with the Civil Service Commission in place, promotions and re-grading shall be done on merit.

 

Madam Chairperson, may I also speak on one important component, transfers. It happens often that if you are not favoured by your superiors or the Government that is in place, you will find yourself ‘somewhere’. This should come to an end. If anything, it is not helping this country to transfer people for indiscipline. When a civil servant is undisciplined, there is no need to transfer them from Luanshya to Nakonde. You are simply transferring indiscipline and not solving anything. So, there must be some modalities so that if somebody is indisciplined, he/she must be dealt with accordingly within the area in which they are. Once you start transferring indiscipline, the whole Civil Service will be crowded with indiscipline. This person will take indiscipline to the area they will be transferred to.

Madam Speaker, the other point to talk about is that we appreciate the New Dawn Government which has increased the number of civil servants in terms of recruitment of teachers, police officers and nurses. We are aware that these people have been posted to various areas, including the remotest rural points of Zambia. However, I am worried. This time around, I hope the Civil Service can come up with a component within its system which will be dealing with monitoring and evaluation.

We need to monitor these civil servants where they have been posted. How is their performance? What is their contribution? What is their level of dedication to duty? We hear that some civil servants who have been posted to remote areas have come back. What they are doing is giving shimamaor kata mulomoto the District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS) so that they continue drawing a salary from the Government.

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Chibuye, there is a word that you mentioned.

Mr J. Chibuye: Madam Chairperson, I mentioned kata mulomowhich means bribes. They bribe their superiors so that they turn a blind eye to the negative attitude that they have as a civil servant. That must come to an end.

Hon. Member:Shimama?

Mr J. Chibuye: Madam, I am also worried about the youth who have been recruited as teachers, especially the women, who have been posted to various rural areas. The Civil Service must come up with a deliberate policy of making engagements, especially with the traditional leadership in these areas. You will agree with me that most ladies, especially young and beautiful ones, run away from these rural areas where they are posted. The reasons are very simple. They are harassed in the night by people who should not be harassing them. They do not have protection. I can only pray that the Civil Service Commission can start engaging traditional leaders so that wherever these people are posted, they are not posted as objects of whatever, but to offer a service to the people of that area.

Madam Chairperson, so many of them have had their lives cut short, even by headmen; a headman, as old as seventy, going after a ka small girl as young as twenty-five years. They pressure them until they attain what they want. This is bringing a lot of discouragement to the civil servants who are being posted in rural areas.

Madam, as I conclude, I only pray that this time around, we shall have a change both in attitude and in the way we work because Zambia is for us all. If we do not work as civil servants, no one is going to come and work for us. It is the Civil Service that is going to spur the economic improvement of this country.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Chairperson, to start with, the Civil Service Commission is one of those areas considered as the life blood of Government operations. If impaired, it creates a problem in Government operations.

Madam, to start with, the Civil Service, currently, has got a big backlog, especially since most of our civil servants have improved or upgraded their qualifications. Hence, the longer it takes for somebody to be considered, having attained a Masters Degree or a PhD, the more they get frustrated. It is an issue that the Civil Service Commission should look at critically, starting with this Budget that we are about to approve.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing is that workload analysis of certain Civil Service departments is mostly overlooked by the commission. I will cite one example and that is the core work of a district social worker. When you look at the work they do, some parts are statutory services and others are non-statutory. Others are auxiliary.

You will find that in a district, there may be one or two social workers who may need to identify and assess the children in need; liaise with the courts by applying for committal orders; do the administrative aspect of the social cash transfer (SCT); and even do other works that they may be mandated to do. When you look at the number of social workers that we have per district, you will see that it is minimal. You will find that the operations of social services are impaired because two officers cannot do all that work at once. It is for this reason that the commission needs to focus on the workload analysis in this Budget to understand how the civil service is operating.

Madam Chairperson, this does not end there. It goes even to other line ministries like the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock. You will find that the workload of the District Agriculture Coordinating Officers (DACOs) and other officers is just too much such that they cannot cope with it. Hence, you will find that service delivery in terms of the Government operations is always impaired.

It is for this reason that the Civil Service Commission should look at this matter in this Budget that we are about to approve. It is from this point that even the so-called recruitment can start because the Civil Service Commission will know that a particular ministry is quite impaired looking at the nature of work and the number of officers in that particular ministry. That will help in improving the efficiency of the commission. Even the backlog of certain appeals emanates from the challenges that are stated above because you cannot expect an officer to deal with all those matters alone. For example, as I already said, a social worker needs to attend to courts; required at the police to attend to a juvenile suspect; and to attend to the SCT issues. It is very impossible to do all this. This is why officers are not submitting reports at the actual time they are supposed to and they are disciplined or charged for offences that can be controlled by the commission. It is for this reason that starting with this Budget, the Civil Service Commission needs to work prudently and efficiently in order to apply workload analysis to help the operations of the Government.

 

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I support the Budget as long as the Civil Service Commission focuses on the workload analysis as it does its job as it is mandated to do.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I want to start by thanking the hon. Members who have debated on this very important commission, as noted by them. I think seven hon. Members debated other than those who just raised points of order.

Madam Chairperson, what I heard is that we need to acknowledge the workers of the Government. I will combine all the points from the hon. Members. I am sure those who debated will listen.

Madam Chairperson, we need to appreciate the workers. This point was raised by the first speaker, Mr Kang’ombe. Mr Kamboni called the workers, “the engine of the Government.” All this shows the importance of the civil service. The hon. Members said that we should have qualified civil service commissioners, I think that is what I heard, for them to be able to employ qualified civil servants, who should be career civil servants. I am picking the points as people debated them. I think that these are very important points that have been raised. The goal that the commission is trying to reach is that we should run away from the issue of cadreism or allegations of cadres being employed. This commission that is in office today is working hard to ensure that there is no such a thing.

Madam Chairperson, other people even referred to the fact that we may not discipline civil servants properly if they seem to be aligned to political affiliation. Therefore, the issue of depoliticising the Civil Service Commission and generally Government is important. You will remember that there were allegations that many people were dismissed because of political affiliation. People spoke about the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). This particular commission worked through the Secretary to the Cabinet and allowed people to appeal and cases were looked at case by case because the commission and the Government generally, realises that people can hide in the name of being fired because of being politically affiliated. This commission is looking at those cases, case by case not as a blanket issue. So, there is verification and therefore, we should not worry too much. The commission is listening and these concerns are being picked. I am happy that it was made clear that this is the Civil Service Commission because I heard somebody talk of the police. This has nothing to do with the police because the police are under another commission.

Madam Chairperson, the commission is working to ensure that there are career civil servants. That is the only way we will run. There are countries where political changes occur so often but the countries remain stable because the civil service is professional. That is why I agree with what Mrs Sabao that she would not allow a cadre from any party to be sent to her constituency to work because of political affiliation and not qualifications because it does not help. We should work on that. This commission is committed to resolving that.

Madam Chairperson, there was an issue that was debated and allow me to speak to that. The Patriotic Front (PF) manifesto stated that people particularly, from the directorate to ambassador level, unless there was an amendment, would be answering to the political party.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: That is unfortunate. In fact, for me, it is not a myth. They can go and check and then, bring the issue to the House. I have mentioned it on the Floor and they can also bring it up on the Floor. If there is an amendment, I would appreciate that kind of amendment. That issue was in their manifesto. The implication of this is that people start fearing a political party. We should not allow that. This should not be allowed from now going forward so that we can have career civil servants who are able to service any political party that comes into power, basically, servicing and following the policies of any new Government that comes into power. This is our commitment.

Madam Chairperson, I got a concern from Mr Chibuye who brought out the issue of unqualified people being employed. The issue of confirmations, transfers, and discipline to be done on merit rather than favour was mentioned and the Commission is committed to doing that. Basically, people have called for professionalism both in the commission and in the civil service.

Madam Chairperson, Mr Mpundu of Chembe Constituency brought out another issue of civil servants who are overloaded with work and, therefore, they fail to perform.

 

Madam Chairperson, this also goes to frozen positions. I think the hon. Member for Chienge brought it out that some positions are frozen but you try to understand what the freezing is. It simply means that the position has remained vacant for a long time and therefore, the Treasury Authority has been withdrawn. So, when one is acting, there is need for Treasury Authority. This goes to institutions’ supervising authorities to ensure that when somebody is appointed, let Treasury Authority be given because an overwhelmed personnel will not function well. We agree and this commission will work to see that this is no longer the case.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of reuniting families is a policy direction of this Government. However, it has gone on for such a long time that correction has started, but not felt yet. This is a command to the commission and it will work to ensure that families are united to avoid the vices Hon. Mwelwa Katuta referred to in her submission. The commission has listened to the hon. Colleagues and these were important points that we must work on to ensure we abide to as commission in order to produce a Civil Service that is career driven and will serve the people of Zambia through the Governments that come and go; except that our Government will be here for here for some fifty years.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 28 – (Emoluments Commission – K31,275,510)

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to present the 2023 Budget Estimates of Expenditure for the Emoluments Commission.

Mandate

Madam Chairperson, Article 232 of the Constitution of Zambia establishes the Emoluments Commission to regulate the emoluments of a public officer, chief or member of the House of Chiefs on the recommendation of relevant authority or commission. The Emoluments Commission has also been given power under Article 264 to determine or decide the emoluments of a state officer, councillor, constitutional office holder and a Judge, as prescribed.

Madam Chairperson, the Emoluments Commission Act No. 1 of 2022, gives effectto the above constitutional provisions by setting out a broad framework that seeks to introduce and entrench nationality, harmony and equity across existing widely divergent pay policies across the public sector spectrum. One of the desired expected outcomes in theoperationalisation of the commission is an independent institution that develops and implements a comprehensive and rational pay policy in the public sector to stimulate greater productivity and productivity gains for a competitive, efficient and effective public sector that ultimately leads to sustainable economic development.

Madam Chairperson, as you may be aware, the establishment of the Emoluments Commission by the New Dawn Government is a recognition of the reality that emoluments in state organs and state institutions are characterised by serious inconsistency, variations, huge distortions and disparities in salaries, quality and conditions of service and job grade structures. In a number of cases, pay does not reflect the level of responsibilities, productivity, performance, equity, fairness, capacity to pay and sustainability.

Madam Chairperson, the New Dawn Government is cognisant of the reality that adequate and fair pay is a key component in improving and sustaining the motivation, performance and integrity of the Public Service. Therefore, the determination of adequate pay requires an objective, systematic, methodical and consistent approach that considers the economic, political and social realities which ultimately ensures that there is a linkage between pay and productivity and performance. In the past, the Government had endeavoured to address the issue of pay in the Public Service, but efforts put in place could not yield the expected results due to the adhoc and piece meal approach undertaken in this regard.

Madam Chairperson, recognising the importance of a more systematic, methodical and comprehensive approach to address the pay and incentive challenges, the New Dawn Government prioritised the operationalisation of the Emoluments Commission as soon it was ushered into office last year.

Madam Chairperson, despite the Emoluments Commission being provided for in the Constitution Amendment Act No.2 of 2016, the previous Government failed to operationalise this institution in line with international best practices for good governance due to the lack of political will. This move is aimed at enhancing the capacity of state organs and state institutions to attract, retain and adequately motivate human resource with the requisite skills and experience for improved service deliver for less time, less risk and less cost resulting in greater policy impact, more citizen satisfaction and empowerment.

 

Madam Chairperson, Section 15 of the Emoluments Commission Actoutlines five mandatory principles that shall guide the commission in its determination of emoluments as follows:

  1. retention of officers and staff in a state organ and state institution with the requisite qualifications and skills for improved service delivery;
  2. efficient performance in a state organ or state institution;
  3. the need for emoluments that reflect the level of responsibility of a chief or an officer in a state organ or state institution;
  4. enhancement and maintenance of macroeconomic stability in the country; and
  5. affordability and sustainability.

Strategic Focus

Madam Chairperson, in line with the strategic focus of the New Dawn Government and the Vision 2030, the Emoluments Commission will in 2023 embark on various strategic programmes targeted at:

  1. ensuring equity, fairness, transparency accountability in emoluments’ determination;
  2. a fiscal sustainable public service wage bill;
  3. enhanced competitiveness of the Public Service in attracting, retaining and adequately motivating personnel with requisite skills and experience to execute their respective functions; and
  4. enhancing implementation of performance-based pay interventions in state organs and state institutions for improved service delivery and productivity.

2013 Budget Estimates

Madam Chairperson, being a green field project with a wide scope of responsibilities as provided for in the Emoluments Commission Act, the annual provision for the Emoluments Commission is K31,275,510. The allocation will be utilised to implement two key priority programmes, namely:

  1. remuneration management; and
  2. management and support services.

Madam Chairperson, the funds will support the portfolio functions of the Emoluments Commission, as well as tasks and operations that shall include determination, rationalisation and harmonisation of salaries and conditions of service, job evaluation, re-grading and organisational designs, emoluments research and forecasting, monitoring and evaluation of the implementation of the pay policy, policy and planning, benchmarking of best practices in emoluments management, pension reforms, development of performance evaluation framework for state owned enterprises and others.

Madam, the commissions operations shall span over 200 state institutions and organs, 116 local authorities, the Executive, Judiciary, Legislature and all government ministries and provinces. Therefore, while recognising the strain on the Treasury in securing resources for other competing and demanding needs, it will be appreciated if the commission could be supported by the Treasury, and it will, through allocation and timely release of funds for the commission’s operations.

Madam Chairperson, the process of verifying the appointments of the commissioners is underway as provided for under Section 6 of the Emoluments Commission Act to ensure the best candidates are selected. This is the final step in the process of making the Emoluments Commission fully operational.

Madam Chairperson, I now seek for the House’s support of the 2023 budget estimates for the Emoluments Commission.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Chairperson, for starters, allow me to say that this particular commission, the Emoluments Commission, is a step in the right direction. In this regard, allow me to emphasise that this august House supported a very clear Motion to enhance the conditions of service for our councillors and this is a matter for the Emoluments Commission.I am so excited this day that in this House, we can debate the allocation to this very important commission.

Madam Chairperson, with those opening remarks, allow me to state that with the expectation of the populace out there, the Emoluments Commission is tasked to attract and retain well qualified personnel in the Public Service. In other words, the Emoluments Commission has a duty to ensure that the Public Service remains attractive, competitive and that it can become an employer of choice.

Madam Chairperson, it is important for the Emoluments Commission to also realise, and I am glad that the Permanent Secretary (PS) is here, that there is a very clear expectation from the people of Zambia and the Public Service in particular that it will play a very important role in addressing equitable remuneration across the service.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chanda, I do not think it is important or fair for you to refer to the Permanent Secretary (PS) who is present here. You are debating through the Chairperson.

You can continue.

Mr Chanda: Madam Chairperson, I am guided. I am only happy that I can see another son of Chitulika in the House.

Interruptions

Mr Chanda: Madam Chairperson, I am guided and I come in peace.

Madam Chairperson, the need for harmonisation and unification of pay should lead to salary enhancement for the entire Public Service, so that we are able to retain the technical, professional and managerial personnel we require for the Public Service. Pay enhancement is a necessary incentive required for utilising the existing potential within the Public Service. This particular commission is critical in reinvigorating the morale and integrity of the public servants as we know.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to state that this particular commission is a very sensitive one in that it touches on matters of bread and butter on one hand, but it also touches on matters of productivity for the Public Service. In this regard, we do not expect that the Emoluments Commission will become a source of conflict, which it can easily become because of the sensitive terrain in which it is going to operate. On one side, it is issues of bread and butter and on the other side, it is productivity which we so desire from the Public Service.

Madam Chairperson, dealing with discrepancies, inconsistencies and inequalities in conditions of service and salaries for the Public Service is critical. Today, we can sit and ask ourselves a question that: When shall we migrate the Civil Service to an hourly rate from that of a daily rate and ensure that we have a motivated Civil Service? This will result in less absenteeism because people will know that if you report for work at 0800 hours, you do not need to dodge or run away at 0900 hours. You need to be in the office from 0800 hours until 1700 hours because every hour and every minute is going to count. That will result in productivity as well as maximisation of the human resource we have in the Public Service.

Madam Chairperson, it is also important to understand that this particular commission and its coming into being play a critical role in the much desired improved service delivery. In this regard, yes, Rome was not built in a day, but we still expect that there will be incentives to the Public Service and there will be reward for those who are putting in extra effort. Hard work must be rewarded in order to incentivise the Public Service.

Madam Chairperson, it is also expected that as the commission plays and executes its mandate, it will consider the increase in the consumer price index. It will also consider the increase in the wage price index. There are a lot of best practices that this commission would have to look up to and ensure that we give the best package to our Public Service in Zambia, so that a day must come when our chiefs, members of the House of Chiefs, state officers, councillors, constitutional office bearers and others who fall within the ambit of this commission can look forward to the end of the month and say that indeed it was worth every effort that they had put into their work.

I thank you so much, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to debate on the Emoluments Commission. Let me begin by saying that this commission is quite long overdue. Just like everyone else, the public workers out there have always been looking forward to a time when, indeed, there will be that moment when the services that they render to the public are going to be harmonised and there will be that kind of rationale that is going to motivate the output that every worker puts in the work that he or she is tasked to do.

Madam Chairperson, I want to mention that this commission is going to motivate public workers. It is interesting that it cuts across all public institutions. Let me give an example of what is obtaining currently. The amount of pay that an individual should get should not be based on the institution that he/she works for. Right now, you will learn that the money that a chief’s retainer gets is far less than what a police officer gets, but the amount of effort and work which are put in is almost equal. That is unacceptable, and it is one thing which de-motivates workers in some of these sectors.

Madam Chairperson, you will find that somebody I was in the same class with at the University ofZambia gets more than I do just because I got a job at the council andthat person got a job at ZESCO Limited. That is de-motivating.

Madam Chairperson, we are very sure that this commission has been given a task to provide rationale. There should be logic in the amount of pay that is given to an individual. It should not be based on the institutionthat somebody works for. I strongly feel, without this commission, the workforce that we havein Zambia will always be de-motivated. Therefore, the intention of this commission shall be fully supported. It is good that it cuts across all public institutions.

Madam Chairperson, when it comes to allowances, you will discover that certain institutions pay more allowances than others when all do equal work. People might attend the same workshop and do the same task, but get different remunerations in terms of allowances. This is de-motivating. Therefore, we are supporting this commission. We strongly feel it will work in an impartial manner and will bring that kind of rationale and logic so that, ultimately,for all workers, regardless of the institution they work for, what should matter is the qualification. When that moment comes, I am very certain that we will have a workforce that will be motivated and people will get the value out of the effort they put in.We will see high output and motivation from the Public Service.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, I thank you so much for allowing me to make a few comments on this very important Vote, which is relatively new. I think it is the first time that this House is considering appropriating resources to this newly created institution.

Madam Chairperson, as I support thebudget estimates for this institution, may I just make a few observations that this new institution must appreciate. As the institution is embarking on looking at the aspects of emoluments, it must not lose sightof the doctrine of separation of powers. This doctrine is what determines good governance. We have the Judiciary, the Executive and the Legislature. I heard Her Honour the Vice-President, as she was making a policy statement on this matter, referring to these very important institutions.

Madam Chairperson, the doctrine of separation of powers is all encompassing. If we say the Judiciary, it should be independent not only in its execution of the mandate of dispensing justice, but also in all the issues that go with the senior and junior officers under the Judiciary. So, the Chief Justice, who’s Act we were passing just a few weeks ago, must ensure that the interface with this new institution does not subtract from the independence of the Judiciary. In short, it must be seen to be enhanced because this institution that we are discussing today will obviously be under the arm of the Government which is the Executive. So, we do not want to get into a situation where we have a scenario of he who pays the piper calls tune.

Similarly, Madam Chairperson, our institution here, the Legislature, under the Speaker, will be considering the issue of the Parliamentary Service Commission. So, we must ensure that as these two institutions also embark on the same issue of looking at the welfare of members of staff of the institution and constitutional office holders, who include ourselves, they look at what has been existing so that the doctrine of separation of powers that I have spoken to is not diluted. The existence of this institution must not be diluted by how it interfaces with this new institution that will be under the Executive.

Madam Chairperson, we are looking forward to interactions.We encourage this institution to ensure that it embarks on understanding how these arms of the Government are structured because, certainly, what the legislature does is different from what the Judiciary doesto ensure that good governance,which is themain objective, is achieved. Obviously, there is a nexus between this institution and the Executive in some way because some of the constitutional officer bearers of this institution form part of the Executive. Again, Madam Chairperson, these are matters that this new institution must clearly look into andspell out which mechanisms are going to be used. It will be prudent to get this institution to interact with existing structuresunderthese two major institutions, the Judiciary and the Legislature, so that we know how the recommendations will be done, for example, and how the decisions will be made.

 

Madam Chairperson, there are unions that have been representing workers for a long time. Unions have been bargaining for workers. We want to understand the role that unions are going to play.There have been cries from workers, especially in theprivate sector that unions have gone to sleep. They no longer represent the rights of workers. So, we want to know how it is going to be in terms of negotiations for the welfare of our workers.

Madam Chairperson, we would like to place on record that, indeed, a motivated worker is a productive one. You cannot expect a de-motivated worker to be productive. This goes for all sectors, but you cannot say equal pay. As I said, institutions differ. There aresome very sensitive institutions that are parastatals; for example, the Central Bank or the Bank of Zambia (BOZ), which is at the centre of managing our economy. It is also structured.How the welfare of the people who work for that important institution is looked into must appreciate the role the institution plays. So, we must not go in and say this institution must match other institutions. That spirit will defeat the whole essence of establishing this institution.

Madam Chairperson, we appreciate the new institution, but let us be very cautious as we embark on negotiating and creating communication channels.It can backfire if we do not handle it with the caution that we need to. However, it can also succeed if it is well managed, and with a give and take spirit. Understanding the rules of all these institutions iskey,as opposed to just saying these get more than others. I do not think we shall be achieving much if we take that approach. What is important is to understand the rules of all the arms of the Government.That will be helpful for this new institution.

With those few remarks, Madam Chairperson, I support the vote.

Mr Amutike (Mongu Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the people of Mongu Central a chance to say a few words on this Head. The people of Mongu Central would like to put it from the onset, that they support this Head. We also want to thank the President for assenting to this Head by making sure that this commission is operationalised. The coming into effect of this commission implies that all public bodies, state institutions, and state organs, cease to determine their own emoluments as guided under Section 36 of this very Act.

Madam Chairperson, it is very important to harmonise the emoluments or wages of all the people in the public service, and in state-owned enterprises, because that has been a concern and source of disharmony for a long time. So, I think this is what we meant when we said that United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is going to fix things or that Bally is going to fix all these things. It begins by ensuring that those who work get equal pay for equal job, and equal salary for equal job. That is very important. You cannot have a situation where, for example, drivers at ZESCO Limited and the Ministry of Health, who are performing the same kind of work, are getting different salaries, and sometimes, others even getting double their colleagues’ salaries. So, these are the kind of things we want to normalise. It was even becoming very difficult to do lateral transfers, to take the best talent that had performed well within the same civil service to another ministry in order to help sort out the mess.  One would say, “No, am better of here.” So, these are the kind of things that the Emoluments Commission wants to sort out.

Madam Chairperson, as I speaker right now, I want to allay any fears that the role of unions will be taken away. No, the unions will still play their role in terms of bargaining for the workers. However, the final determination of wages and emoluments will be done by the Emoluments Commission, just like it is currently. The unions do not determine salaries. It is the employers who do that after negotiations. So, these are the things that we want to normalise to ensure that there is harmony. Earlier on, we already spoke about the public service and how we want it to be professional. We cannot have a professional civil service if there are so many discrepancies in terms of wages by the same people who are performing the same work. So, we want to support this Head. We also want to put it on record that it is a very important initiative. It is one of the most important things that the New Dawn Government has done for the public service for the Quasi Government institutions and the state-owned enterprises.

Last week we were debating here about the remuneration of councillors. 

Yes, this body will deal with those issues. There will be proper job evaluations to ensure that you are being paid accordingly.

Madam Chairperson, we also want to allay fears that salaries for those with hefty salaries working for institutions such as such ZESCO Limited and the Bank of Zambia will be cut. No, salaries will not be cut, but they will be paid according to the value they put in the organisation and the output they give to the organisation.

So, with those few words, as the people of Mongu Central, we support this Vote.

I thank you, Madam.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Members who have debated in support of the Emoluments Commission.

Madam, let me just comment on a few concerns which I think are very important, though we understand things differently.

 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members. Can we give chance to Her Honour the Vice-President to wind up debate.

The Vice-President: The policy statement that was given was key in stating some of the functions that the Emoluments Commission will do. I think we heard words like productivity and sustainability. When we hear such, we cannot say the commission is coming to make one salary for everybody. It means that it will look at harmonisation. What is to harmonise and to rationalise? It will look at all that.

Madam, even under the guidance of the International Labour Organisation (ILO), people will agree that we should be able get equal pay for equal work of the same value. I think it is a well thought out principle. However, I do not want to spend time trying to qualify how the commission will work. It is important to know that the commission is not coming to interfere, for example, with how the Government functions. In fact, it is important for people to understand that nobody will be left out.

Madam Chairperson, the Emoluments Commission will basically be composed of different institutions. If what I have here will be the composition of the Commission, it means no one should fear being left behind. When we were enacting the Emoluments Commission Act, here, I think we had words that were used on the recommendation. So, other institutions will still have an input in the work of the commission.

Madam Chairperson, the Commission, for example, will have representation from the Chief Justice, from the Clerk of the National Assembly. Hon. Kampyongo, you will be represented because the Clerk of the National Assembly is supposed to be part of this.

Madam, the Chief Justice and, therefore, the judiciary will be represented in the Commission. The Public Service Management Division(PSMD)and Attorney General (AG) will also have representation. So, the Executive will have representation. There will also be representation even from the biggest union. So, the commission is the coming together of all major stakeholders.  That means therefore, that there will be direct interface with other institutions and indirect interface through the commission itself. The commission is not coming to reduce anything, but it is important that all hon. Members have stated that this commission, which is a greenfield, will bring motivation and rationale to the public service. 

In as much as productivity may differ, there are many disparities in the salary policies of the same Public Service. We are hoping that we will harmonise these issues.

Madam Chairperson, I heard somebody say that the salaries should be based on qualifications. I think that is a very difficult one. They will look at it, but it is a very difficult one. I think it is more about how you sustain your own institution. If you are working for one institution and then you want resources to come from somewhere else, it becomes difficult.

Madam, I think it is important to reduce the disparities. For example, the hon. Member talked about parallel transfers. This is different because even if the qualifications are the same, it becomes very difficult, but the commission is your institution and it is coming to harmonise, rationalise and work out a system methodically that will be very helpful.

Madam Chairperson, somebody talked about paying people hourly. I think that was Hon. Chanda. He talked about moving from daily to hourly payment so that people can do a good job. I think that is subject for research, but I thought it started today in this House that you report, you indicate and you stay in the House for you to be able to get paid. Did we get that announcement? So, that is a good proposal and the commission will be looking into that. It will do some research and a lot of consultations before it can implement anything.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

VOTE 28 – (Emoluments Commission – K31,275,510)

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3419, Sub Programme 9001 – Remuneration and Benefits – K6,974,173. What benefits are we talking about for this new institution?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, being a new institution, we expect that there will be a lot of work. The work under this sub-programme will be to support a review of salaries. There has to be a review of salaries in the institutions that they will be working with. There will also be a review of salaries and conditions in the State institutions and organs that they will be working with. There will be also job evaluations as people were talking about what kind of work should get what kind of salary. They will work on evaluating the jobs whose salaries they will review. This is going to go to regrading and organisational structure and design.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3499, Sub Programme 9002 – Human Resources Management and Administration – K 15,795,792. Why is this amount so high? Does it mean that is where even the remuneration for our staff at the Emoluments Commission falls?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, under this Emoluments Commission, the salary component of the commission itself is centrally done, it is not in this commission. So, Programme 3499, Sub-programme 9002 – Human Resources Management and Administration – K15,795,792is allocated for general administrationcosts, initial set-up and related facilitation for conducive environment. It means that right now, we are setting up.The starting is always extremely expensive. This is what this will be doing to ensure that there is effective service delivery.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07 – (Office of the Auditor-General – K156,129,395)

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I wish to extend my sincere gratitude for according me this opportunity to present the 2023 estimates of expenditure for Vote 07 – Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam, the Office of the Auditor-General derives its mandate from Article 250(1) of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016, the Public Audit Act No. 8 of 1980 and the Public Finance Management Act No. 1 of 2018.

Madam, according to Article 212 of the Constitution, the Auditor-General shall, not later than nine months after the end of the financial year, submit an audit report to the President and the National Assembly on the accounts of the republic audited in respect of the preceding financial year.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is a key government institution that has been charged with the responsibility of providing auditing services to public and other institutions that receive Government subvention. The office also plays a critical role in contributing towards improved policy and governance environment by conducting value for money and impactful audits that assess the economy, efficiency and effectiveness in the management of public resources.

Vision and Mission Statements

Madam Chairperson, the vision of the Office of the Auditor-General is, “To become an independent and credible audit institution promoting transparency and accountability in the management of public resources.” The mission is, “To provide timely, quality audit services to promote transparency and accountability in the management of public resources for the well-being of the citizenry.”

Overview of 2022 Operations

Madam Chairperson, in 2022, the authorised budget of the Office of the Auditor-General was K133,464,582 against which amounts totalling K96,034,046 were released, representing a percentage funding of 72 per cent as at 31st October, 2022.

Madam Chairperson, under external audit under assurance programmes, the following major activities were undertaken:

  1. financial audit of major ministries such as the:

 

  1. Ministry of Health;
  2. Ministry of Education;
  3. Ministry of Agriculture;
  4. Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation;
  5. 116 local authorities; and
  6. Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development,Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and the Local Government Equalisation Fund (LGEF);

 

  1. the performance audit that is value for money on:

 

  1. public debt;
  2. urban and regional planning in Zambia with the focus on land usage;
  3. control and regulation of illegal immigrants in Zambia;
  4. provision of mental health services in Zambia;administration of student loans in Zambia; and
  5. prevention and control of non-communicable diseases (NCDs) in Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, these audits contribute towards the achievement of sustainable goals, improvement of the public financial management system, and the improvement of the wellbeing of citizens through the implementation of the audit recommendations.

Madam Chairperson, strong Public Financial Management Systems (PFMS) allow prudent budgeting and allocation of resources to the key areas of development and ensures there is improved service delivery.

  1. production of the Auditor General’s report, the six key outputs produced were as follows:
  1. opinion on the financial statements of the republic for the financial year ended 31st December, 2021;
  2. Audit report on the accounts of the republic for the financial year ended 31st December, 2022;
  3. audit report on the accounts of parastatal and other statutory bodies for the financial year ended 31st December, 2021;  
  4. opinion issued on the financial statements of local authorities for the financial year ended 31st December, 2021;
  5. audit report on the accounts on local authorities for the financial year ended 31st December, 2021; and
  6. performance audit reports.
  7. under the management and support services programme, the following activities were undertaken:
  8. capacity building of staff in professional and other training tool;
  9. preparation of annual operational plans;
  10. procurement of Information and Communications Technology (ICT) equipment;
  11. production of financial statements for the office of the Auditor General; and
  12. production of the administrative report for the year ended December 2021.

2023 Budget Estimates

Madam Chairperson, the total Budget estimate for the year 2023, for the office of the Auditor General is K156,129,395, which is an increase of 11.8 per cent from the 2022 Budget. The Budget is segmented according to the two programmes that is namely, external audit and assurance. The total programme Budget estimate is K112,395,223. The programme estimate is expected to cover seven sub-programmes namely:

  1. public debt and investment audit;
  2. specialised audit;
  3. provincial appropriation audit;
  4. local authorities audit;
  5. quality assurance;
  6. revenue audit; and
  7. ministerial appropriation audit.

Management and Support Services

Madam Chairperson, the total programme estimate is K43,734,172. The programme is expected to cover five sub programmes namely:

  1. Human Resource Management;
  2. Administration Financial Management (accounting);
  3. Procurement Management;
  4. Planning, Policy Coordination and Information Management; and
  5. Financial Management Internal Audit.

Madam Chairperson, this Budget estimates will ensure the office of the Auditor General to effectively and efficiently carry out its mandate in ensuring that public resources are used in a prudent, transparent and accountable manner for the benefit of the citizens.

In addition, the budget is aimed at addressing issues related to personal emoluments and outstanding bills.

Madam Chairperson, the office will continue to provide timely and quality audit services to promote transparency and accountability as a way of contributing towards improved policy and governance environment. In this regard, I appeal to the hon. Members to support the estimates of expenditure of K156,129,395 for the Office of the Auditor-General, as presented.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

The Chairperson: As we continue, I request the independent hon. Members to participate as well. We would also like to hear the voices of the independent hon. Members.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to debate Vote 07 – Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, without wasting time, the Office of the Auditor-General is a creation of this House, established and whose functions are prescribed by Article 250 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. The functions are clearly stated in that article, giving us an opportunity to understand why the office exists. I implore my fellow hon. Members of Parliament to take time to read Article 250 for them to have a good understanding of the functions of this office. This is because once you appreciate the functions of this office, you will know why it should do what it is doing.

Madam Chairperson, I am particularly interested in one of the functions stated therein and I want to quote. According to Article 250(e), one of the functions of the Auditor-General is to:

(e) recommend to the Director of Public Prosecutions or a law enforcement agency any matter within the competence of the Auditor-General, that may require to be prosecuted.”

Madam, now that we know that this is one of the functions, it is imperative for the Executive to ensure that this function is achieved and I will cite the reasons. We have this budget, which I of course support, but year in and year out, I have noticed that this institution has survived with requesting for a supplementary budget in order for it to meet its work. With the function that this office has, important as it is, the budget that we allocate year in and year out is meagre. It is struggling to do its work competently and comprehensively. As a result, the office is subjected to sampling and many institutions go without audit for several years. By the time they are audited, it would have been four years.

Madam Chairperson, whatever we discuss here is simply a sample of government institutions that have been audited. Now, we forget that we are discussing a sample because we allocated less money. If we attached more importance to this Vote, we would have allocated more money from the money that we raise domestically. Looking at the Yellow Book, out of K156 million, K139.1 million will be financed from the funds that are raised domestically and about K17 million will come from co-operating partners. That goes to demonstrate how much our co-operating partners attach importance to this function of governance.

Madam, one thing we need to understand also is that I am a believer of the doctrine of separation of powers. There is the Legislature, Executive and Judiciary. We have a role here as Parliament to actually check on the Executive –

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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MOTION

 

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1913 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 3rdNovember, 2022.

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