Wednesday, 19th October, 2022

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          Wednesday, 19thOctober, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER

NAPSA SENSITISATION SEMINAR

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) has been authorised to conduct a sensitisation seminar on its operations. The seminar will be held tomorrow, Thursday, 20th October, 2022, from 0830 to 1230 hours in the Amphitheatre at Parliament Buildings. Hon. Members are encouraged to attend this important meeting on voluntary basis.

I thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND ARTS, MR NKANDU, ON THE EXCLUSION OF YOUTHS IN PRISON WARDER RECRUITMENT

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance. The youths of Petauke Central Constituency in the Eastern Province and those of Shangombo, Katombola, Nkana, Kamfinsa and Nakonde are crying.

Mr Jamba: Crying for what?

Mr J. E. Banda: What they know is that according to our Constitution, the age limit for a youth is from eighteen years to thirty-six years. This year, they have seen the recruitment of teachers and health workers being conducted in that age range.

Sir, when I was in the constituency, I was almost attacked by youths –

Mr Mwene: Why did they spare you?

Mr Jamba:Ayi!

Mr J. E. Banda: Jamba, just sit ndwii.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, over the weekend, when I was touring my constituency, I was almost attacked by youths from my constituency after they read the advert which stated that the recruitment was targeted at those aged between eighteen and twenty-six years. This advertisement was in the Daily Nation newspaper. They told me that as their hon. Member of Parliament, I was not representing them well and they asked me to bring this matter here because they will be left out. They completed school and after completing school, they went to college and university. Thereafter, they find that they are coming back from university at the age of twenty-eight years and right now, they expect to be employed.

Mr Speaker, this matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts.

Mr Mposhainterjected.

Mr J. Banda: Wait for it. The youths in Munali Constituency are watching.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, the youths countrywide –

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, I am not protected from these hon. Members. I am sure you have seen the way they are acting. Whenever I want to start the matter, they are repeatedly coming in. Like the hon. Minister, instead of just sitting ndwii to wait until I finish, he is busy interrupting me.

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: They are jealous. Continue hammering!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Member express himself.

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, the youths are asking their hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Art to intervene. I am sure that according to our Constitution, the age limit for a youth is from eighteen to thirty-six years. Here in Parliament, the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts qualifies to be a youth because here I am sure the age limit is forty-five years and he is within that. Therefore, is he in order to keep quiet when the youths can even end up committing suicide …

Laughter

Mr J. Banda: … if they are not part and parcel of this recruitment exercise?

Mr B. Mpundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, which recruitment are you talking about?

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, it is the recruitment of prison warders, which was advertised last week. I think it was on Friday.

Mr Speaker, this issue is not directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, but the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts because he is the one representing the youths. He is the one who is supposed to intervene and take this matter to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. He should also appeal to our mother, Her Honour …

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: … because the youths are the ones who caused Her Honour to be sitting there. It is the same youths who are twenty-seven years up to thirty-five years. They are waiting and I am sure they are watching Her Honour to see how she is going to intervene in this matter.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu: Quality! Naupyaiwe!

REV. KATUTA, HON. MEMBER FOR CHIENGE, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON THE HEIGHT OF PEOPLE TO BE RECRUITED AS PRISON WARDERS

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): On a matter of urgent public importance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this very important moment to raise a matter of urgent public importance. The Independent Whip has already touched part of it, but I would like to raise this very important matter of urgent public importance on Her Honour the Vice-President, as the Leader of Government Business in this House and also the Vice-President of this nation.

Mr Speaker, Article 8 of our Constitution, I would have read it, but I will not, and the Employment Code Act, No. 3 of 2019, do not discriminate against any Zambian being employed even by the Government.

Mr Speaker, the people in Chienge are short like me in stature. When you look at the advert by the Government for the recruitment of prison warders, you will see it is talking about the stature. The advert has mentioned a certain height, but it is not everyone who is tall. God has created us in different ways. In other words, as people from Luapula, we are, of course short in stature. Therefore, we are not going to participate in this national cake of getting employed.

Mr Speaker, I want to appeal to the Government through you. I need your indulgence to ask the Government to redo the advert and also consider our children or brothers who are of short stature.

Mr Speaker, my question is: Is this Government in order to discriminate against its citizens from getting equally employed by its own Government? When people are voting, there is no discrimination. There is no age limit.

 

M Speaker, I need your indulgence. The people of Chienge need these jobs and they should be part and parcel of this recruitment.

I need your indulgence, Mr Speaker.

MR SIMUMBA, HON. MEMBER FOR NAKONDE, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON THE PRESIDENT NOT BEING SEEN

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): On a matter of urgent public importance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Simumba: Mr Speaker, yesterday, the Zambian people were commemorating the National Day of Prayer, Fasting Repentance and Reconciliation.

Hon. Member: Day of player?

Mr Simumba: Of prayer.

Mr Speaker, I have with me here, a programme that was being followed. We were expecting His Excellency the President of –

Hon. UPND Members: The former Government.

Mr Simumba: Not the former Republican President.

Laughter

Mr Simumba: It is the lovely President, His Excellency the President of this country, Mr Hakainde Hichilema.

Mr Munsanje: And Commander-in-Chief.

Mr Simumba: Mr Speaker, according to the programme, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Kakainde Hichilema was expected to arrive at 1015 hours. Many people waited for His Excellency, but he was nowhere to be seen.

Hon. Government Members: Where?

Mr Simumba: Mr Speaker, even today, the President was supposed to be on the Copperbelt and the programme is there. Therefore, the people are asking why they have not seen His Excellency because when the programme is set, it becomes official.

Mr Speaker, the Zambian people are asking Her Honour the Vice-President where our President is. We want to know where the President is because if we can have the programme for His Excellency, then this is official. However, the President is not seen and we are getting worried because we love him.

Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling on this matter.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

MS PHIRI, HON. MEMBER FOR MILANZI, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON FARMERS NOT PAID FOR THEIR PRODUCE BY FRA IN MILANZI

Ms Phiri (Milanzi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Ms Phiri: Mr Speaker, the matter that I will raise is directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Mr Speaker, I represent a rural constituency, whose majority are poor and their main economic activity is agriculture. Many farmers who supplied their produce to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) have not been paid. If these farmers are not paid in good time, they will not be able to pay for fertiliser this farming season. Consequently, this will affect food production.

Mr Speaker, I am concerned that the hon. Minister of Agriculture is sitting comfortably and chatting with other hon. Ministers when the good people and poor farmers of Milanzi Constituency are being neglected by FRA.

Mr Speaker, I seek your guidance.

MR KAMBITA, HON. MEMBER FOR ZAMBEZI EAST, ON HER HON. HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON THE STATE OF THE BRIDGE ACROSS THE MAKONDU STREAM

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): On a matter of urgent public importance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kambita: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to raise this matter of urgent public importance. The reason I have risen on this matter of urgent public importance for first time since this avenue was actually introduced to Parliament is that the people I represent are in dire need of the Government’s intervention.

Mr Speaker, there is a place in my constituency called Makondu. Makondu has a stream which is a tributary of the mighty Zambezi River. Being a tributary of the mighty Zambezi River, it is highly infested with crocodiles. Now, in that area called Makondu, the school to which children go to school is on the western side of the river. Most of the children stay on the eastern side. We have a situation whereby children are using a crossing point where there is a dilapidated bridge, built in the colonial days. There were makeshift sticks that were put on there. It is quite a distance, but now that has collapsed and children are risking crossing that crocodile infested stream on small boats and the like, which is endangering their lives.

Mr Speaker, I took an initiative to visit the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to find a solution to this. Unfortunately, I was advised to see the Road Development Agency (RDA) and come up with a budget. A budget was made and it was as high as K13 million. We thought we could maybe, make a contribution from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). However, with our CDF budget for capital projects which is just K14 million, how can it do that bridge for K13 million? There is a bridge already made, an Acrow bridge, but our Government is unable to give us just that to make sure that that bridge is laid there. Children are now risking their lives.

Mr Speaker, I need the Government’s intervention. This matter is actually brought to Her Honour the Vice-President to intervene, so that we find avenues to ensure that those children are not caught by crocodiles by risking crossing the Makondu stream to go to school. This is a daily event. Now with the rains almost coming – it has actually started raining in Zambezi. One of the children was almost caught the other day by a crocodile.

Mr Speaker, I need your indulgence to get the attention of Her Honour the Vice-President to this life-threatening situation.

I thank you, Sir.

MR CHANDA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KANCHIBIYA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, ENG. MILUPI, ON THE STATE OF THE ROAD BETWEEN SERENJE AND MPIKA

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): On a matter of urgent public importance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance touches on the road stretch between Serenje and Mpika. This is a stretch that we use every other week, and it is a death trap. We are recording accidents every other day and week. My question and plea goes to the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. What are the plans – It must not take one of the hon. Members of Parliament or Government official to lose a life for us to wake up to reality. Are there plans to rehabilitate or work on this particular road? Are there any such plans before the rainy season? We have lost so many lives and we continue to lose lives every other day. If you are on that stretch, you feel the pain that motorists and the public users are facing every other day. So, my matter of urgent public importance is directed at the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development and it is to find out to what extent and when we expect this particular stretch of the road to be redeemed. I do not want to say, is the hon. Minister in order, because I do not want to cross a certain line, but the question is: When do we get this particular stretch of the road addressed by this particular ministry?

MR MULEBWA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KAFULAFUTA, ON THE HOUSE, ON THE RECRUITMENT EXERCISE IN GOVERNMENT SECURITY WINGS

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): On a matter of urgent public importance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mulebwa: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving us, the people of Kafulafuta, an opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance. I wish to put my weight behind what the hon. Member for Petauke Central and the hon. Member from Chienge have both said. Mine is a follow-up on a particular matter. Last time, I stood to ask why we could not be given the honour to have a certain number of candidates recruited by the Zambia Police, Zambia Army and so on and so forth, your office, Mr Speaker, replied by saying I did not have anything to point to in terms of a written document. Now that this matter is in the public media, are you able to provide us with an answer to the same question?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Members of the Front Bench! Let us minimise on talking.

The hon. Member for Petauke Central asked about the recruitment exercise and you spoke about the age the limit. I think we all know that the Zambia Correctional Service is a security entity of the Government. As such, there are certain modalities that the Government looks at before an advertisement is published. So, there is a target audience that the Government wants to attract as would-be applicants. So, that is a security recruitment process that the Government really looks at attentively.

In the same vein, the hon. Member for Chienge spoke about issues to do with height. I think, we are all aware that when you are recruiting security personnel, the stature of an individual plays a key role. The ones recruiting must ensure that they get the needed personnel to be able to execute different tasks. It is not an issue of segregation, but a matter of security recruitment process that certain considerations are taken into account.

Thirdly, the hon. Member for Nakonde wanted to know why the Head of State did not manage to congregate, as earlier announced, at the Showgrounds for the National Day of Prayer, Fasting, Repentance and Reconciliation. I think we are all aware that the Head of State, just like any other human being, is free to congregate wherever he feels like.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Against who?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, against the House on a serious procedural matter.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: If I may be allowed, Mr Speaker –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You are not yet allowed hon. Member.

I was addressing the third hon. Member’s matter of urgent public importance. I think he asked about the Head of State not being able to congregate at the Showgrounds where the national event was held. I think the Head of State is a free human being, just like any one of us. He is free to congregate at any –

Mr Kampyongo: It is a very compelling procedural matter, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member!

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: It a compelling procedural matter. Just allow me so that we can continue smoothly.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Okay, take your seat hon. Member!

Mr Kampyongo resumed his seat.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I am still on the Floor.

Yes, what I was saying is that the Head of State is a free human being to congregate at any place of his choice that he deems fit. However, I think, at the national event, the Government was well represented because Her Honour the Vice-President who is the senior most in this land, was present there. So, the Government was well represented. Let us not politicise issues that do not attract any political attention unnecessarily.

Fourthly, the hon. Member for Milanzi raised an equally very important matter regarding the payment for the maize that was procured by the Government.

Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you are distracting me. If you want to converse maybe, you do it in a more subtle way or if it cannot work, maybe, you go outside a bit. I think that would help.

The issue of maize is quite sensitive. We will ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture to come to the House on Tuesday and issue a ministerial statement regarding payment of people for the produce that they sold to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). So, the hon. Minister of Agriculture has been asked to come to the House and give the state of affairs as regards the procured maize.

The fifth issue was raised by the hon. Member for Zambezi East. The hon. Member was asking the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development over a crossing that has become quite a thorny issue. School children cannot cross because the area is crocodile infested. So, in the same manner, I would like to ask the hon. Minster of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, to come to the House on Tuesday, as well, and provide the clarity that is needed over the same crossing point.

The hon. Member for Kanchibiya asked about the damaged road section that has become a death trap. I think the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development can combine the two issues in the same ministerial statement about the crossing point in the North-Western Province and the damaged road section which the hon. Member for Kanchibiya mentioned.Regarding the issue raised by the hon. Member for Kafulafuta, the issue of sharing slots amongst hon. Members of Parliament for youths to be recruited. The advert was quite precise and specific on how the recruitment process has to be carried out. I was privy to the advert, and it said that the recruitment will be done in all provincial centres. The mode that was indicated in the advert is that it is a transparent recruitment process.

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you rose on a point of procedure. You can go ahead.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, mine is just a slight concern. I want to make sure that we are on the same page as we deal with Business of the House.

Mr Speaker, when hon. Members on your left raise issues with the Executive, it is just important that the Executive is given an opportunity to respond to the concerns. We appreciate that the presiding officer may be privileged to have information on some of these matters. However, there are more issues that we may need to raise on particular subjects with our hon. Colleagues in the Executive. Therefore, presiding officer, Sir, we would like you, – in as much as you have the right to assist our hon. Colleagues from the right–

Mr Nanjuwa: Which Standing Order are you rising on?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the Standing Orders are very clear on how we should conduct business. So, Mr Speaker–

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member! I think, –

Mr Kampyongo: ...we would like you, as presiding officer, to desist from assisting–

The Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, are you sure you are looking at the Standing Orders. Do your Standing Orders tell you that you can raise a point of order on a presiding officer?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, if I refer you to Standing Orders 131 on how business should be conducted here, you will note that it talks about all the procedures that we must follow. Sir, with all due respect, you should facilitate for your hon. Members on the left to engage our hon. Colleagues from the Executive because it is their responsibility to respond to us. We should hold them accountable to the portfolios which they represent in this august House. We appreciate your role and we do not intend to undermine you. In as much as you may be privy to some of the information that they are supposed to share with us, ours is to just request that you facilitate the engagement of the hon. Members on the left so we can hold our hon. Colleagues on your right accountable. So, this was not to undermine you, but to just bring to your attention that we are getting concerned that you are aiding our hon. Colleagues who have a role to play in this august House.

I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us, at all times, acquaint ourselves with Standing Orders in this House. Let us ensure that we read and understand them. I know it is a political House, and there are certain statements that we make for political expediency. However, let us ensure at all times that we do not mislead or misguide ourselves. My candid advice is that we should, at all times, acquaint ourselves with the Standing Orders. I hope I have made myself clear. Let us make progress.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF A YOUTH SKILLS TRAINING CENTRE IN CHIPILI

68. Mr Chala (Chipili) asked the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts:

(a) whether the Government has any plans to construct a skills training centre in Chipili District;

(b) if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

(c) if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo) (on behalf of theMinister of Youth Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu)): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to note that it is the of desire the Government through the Ministry of Youth Sport and Arts to construct and establish at least one youth skills training centre in every district. Chipili District is included. This is in line with the targets that are enshrined in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP).

Mr Speaker, plans to construct a youth skills training centre will be implemented as soon as funds are made available. In this regard, the hon. Member of Parliaments may wish to note that the ministry is also engaging co-operating partners in order to mobilise an alternative source of funding for infrastructure development which include youth skills training centres.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Chala may want to know that plans are already there, as stated above.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister indicated that plans are there and that the Government is engaging co-operating partners. I am also aware that other hon. Ministers that have been queried on plans have indicated that there is a master plan or a gap analysis that has been done. Is the hon. Minister able to share with the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili if the plan he has to build the skills training centre is sitting in one of the plans for either 2023 or 2024, so that the Member of Parliament will be in a position to give a report back to the constituency?

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that the Budget we will be looking at has an allocation for these facilities. Once we pass the Budget, if we do pass it adequately as it is, then definitely, Chipili youth skills training centre will be looked at.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central an opportunity to ask a follow-up question to the Acting Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts.

Mr Speaker, youths in Chipili District depend on sports activities because they help and prevent them from engaging in bad vices. Could the hon. Minister inform the youths of Chipili how far the preparations for the same skills training centre have gone and what the plan is, and if the site has already been allocated.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I thank Hon. Banda for that question. If he got me clearly, I did indicate that yes, the plans are there. We have, in the Budget, an allocation for the growth of skills development centres. The ideal is that each district should have a skills training centre. Currently, we have about twenty-three running, but there are many more districts than the twenty-three. Yes, the plans are there, and they will be worked on as and when funds are made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order targeted at the hon. Minister of Health, pursuant to Standing Order No.206, on the dress code for Members.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to come to this House with a bareback dress that is causing psychological noise to male hon. Members of Parliament?

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: From here, I cannot see how she is dressed.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: From here, I cannot see whether the hon. Minister is properly dressed or not.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, is it true you are wearing a bareback dress?

Laughter

Mrs Maseborose to show what she was wearing.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I guess that was on a lighter note.

Hon. Members: Ah!

Mrs Masebo covered her back with a scarf.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The Minister has covered her back. I think the psychological noise and trauma that the hon. Member for Chilubi was experiencing is now gone.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, indeed, the hon. Minister of Health is growing younger each day that passes.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us ovoid debating ourselves. Some personal jokes can be injurious.

Mr Mung’andu: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, the situation in Chipili is similar to what is obtaining in all the districts. I will give an example of Chama, where the construction of a skills development centre was actually initiated, but it stalled at slab level. As we speak, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which the Government increased and we are grateful for that, is supposed to benefit youths when it comes to skills development. The youths need these centres. The hon. Minister has indicated that the plans are there and that the centres will be worked on when funds are made available. Through you, our hard working Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in a position to assure the people of Zambia when,…

Hon. Member: Which one?

Mr Mung’andu: …will this foreseeable future be, or in terms of years, when will the funds be available? Is it in the next Budget or the other Budget, or, indeed, within the five years mandate the United Party for National Development (UPND) has? We need to know so that our people can start planning. Probably, he can also request us hon. Members of Parliament to use our CDF to build skills development centres. Does the hon. Minister have that initiative?

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I do appreciate the anxiety that this issue causes because youth training centres provide very useful and needed skills. We have a Budget before us, whose speech we are currently debating. Up until this House approves the Budget, it is still funds being expected. In the Budget, there are funds for some of these training skills centres. As I said, we only have twenty-three existing skills training centres out of the many districts that we have. If I am not mistaken, it should be 118 districts. Yes, there will be commencement of building skills training centres. It will start with next year’s Budget.

Mr Speaker, there are also funds which we indicated are from co-operating partners, to be specific, the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), which has been providing funding. So, let us pass the Budget, so that works can commence. I think you have seen that this Government is a working Government. If hon. Members pass the Budget, we will start constructing the structures.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

Mr Mtoloindicated ascent.

Mr Twasa: Hon. Minister, you are happy?

Ms Phiri (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, I am glad to note that the hon. Minister said it is the New Dawn Government’s desire to construct skills training centres in every district. I want to know if there are any plans to extend such facilities to constituency level.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The question was specific, but the hon. Minister can come in to answer that one.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, it is a very important question. Actually, the initial plans were to look at constituency level, but for now, the plans are to look at district level. So, it will be done district by district. We only have twenty-three districts with such facilities. We need all the districts to be covered before we go to the many constituencies that we have.

I thank you, Sir.

STALLED CONSTRUCTION OF THE KAANJA LIVESTOCK SERVICE CENTRE

69. Mr Mandandi (Sioma) asked the Minister of Fisheries and Livestock:

  1. why the construction of the Kaanja Livestock Service Centre Tier 3 in Sioma District has stalled;
  2. when the project will resume;
  3. what the cost of the project is;
  4. what the cost of the outstanding works is; and
  5. what the timeframe for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Chikote): Mr Speaker, Kaanja Livestock Service Centre Tier 3 in Sioma District was being financed by the Livestock Development and Animal Health Project under the World Bank which came to an end before the construction works were completed. The Government took over and made a partial payment to the contractor for the completed works. However, the works stalled after the Government policy at that time to focus on completing projects that were 80 per cent or above.The project has expired due to a lapse in time. The ministry will, therefore, be engaging the Ministry of Justice and the contractor on the way forward.

Sir, the initial sum of the contract was K12.1 million and the cost of outstanding works is K6,487,324.21.

Mr Speaker, the timeframe to complete the remaining works at Kaanja Livestock Service Centre is dependent on the process of engagement as alluded to in part (b) of the question.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Mr Speaker, regarding the livestock centre in Sioma, we all understand that if you build a house but do not occupy it, people will end up vandalising it.

Sir, I know that livestock centre and by now, part of the buildings has been damaged. The service centres across this country which were started then, by whoever started them, were a good idea. However, a good number of them have been vandalised. A practical example is the one in Nyimba which has been vandalised and has now been turned into a church because the community thinks that the only way to protect it is to put a church there and engage a security guard to protect it.

Sir, the building in Nyimba is above 80 per cent complete and I do not know what percent the one in Sioma is at. However, looking at the situation in Sioma, whatever percentage it is at, instead of going up, the percentage is going down. Maybe, we are now at 20 per cent or 10 per cent because people keep on vandalising the property. Does he have any plans not to wait for all projects to be destroyed before he comes up with a tangible amount of money needed to finish up these projects? These are very important projects.

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, indeed, when a project is deserted, there are a lot of things that can happen to it. It is our desire as Government to make sure resources are found for all the projects which were abandoned.

Sir, coming to the livestock service centre in Sioma, Sioma being a new district, the ministry has decided to ask some of its staff to move into some of these structures to protect what we have there. We have got staff, as we are talking, operating at the same centre.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Mr Speaker, we are all aware that Sioma lies in the Western Province and one of the economic avenues for the province is cattle rearing and the animal business. As such, this animal centre is important to the people of Sioma. This is not only the case in Sioma. If not in Luanshya Constituency then it has to be in Roan Constituency where we have a similar project which has stalled.

Sir, the hon. Minister alluded to K12 million which was the contract sum and to an interim payment certificate (IPC) of K6 million which has been issued. When the funds are sourced or secured, is the contract still going to stand at the fixed amount of K12 million or do we see the figure for completing this project increasing?

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, it is true that when it comes to completion, an assessment for the works that are remaining will be required. Hence, in my first response, I stated that we are engaging the Ministry of Justice as there are issues of legality. As I have mentioned, the timeframe for this project has expired. So, we are looking at engaging a contractor based on the advice from the Ministry of Justice. That is when we can know how we are going to proceed with this project.

Sir, these are some of the challenges we have discovered. As he mentioned, there are many things that happened during this period in most of the centres that were supposed to be completed. It is something that this Government wishes to fix. We just took over Government.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mufalali (Nominated): Mr Speaker, this project was abandoned about two to three years ago. Is the hon. Minister indicating that to some extent, the project was abandoned by the World Bank due to time limits? Did the money for the project finish or was it returned?

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, the issue here is, as I said in the first place, that the project was being financed by the World Bank. In the financing agreement of this project, there was a timeframe which the donors or partners gave to the Government. We did not meet that timeframe hence all the money was mopped by the partners. This is where the hiccup comes in.

Sir, maybe, the hon. Member heard me saying that the Government initially decided to take over the project, but it did not do anything to complete the works. However, it is our wish, and I assure the hon. Member that this Government is going to fix the challenge of the Sioma Tier 3 Project.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, I followed keenly when the hon. Minister was providing the answer and I got concerned with the way the he responded to part (e) of the question because it does not seem to give hope to the people of Sioma. I believe that when the hon. Member of Parliament was asking, he wanted to get an answer that he could give to his people, especially when it comes to the timelines.

Mr Speaker, when the hon. Minister says that the timeframe for the completion of the project is dependent on the engagement process, it is too broad and open-ended. It would help the hon. Member of Parliament for Sioma and all of us if the hon. Minister could at least indicate to us when the next meeting with the Ministry of Justice is going to be, so that at least, when he gives a timeframe of say, a week or two or three months, then the hon. Member of Parliament for Sioma will know when to make a follow-up with the hon. Minister, so that he can explain to the people of Sioma regarding this very important project.

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, I stated that this contract had expired. So, when a contract expires, there are issues to do with legalities with the contractor and also looking at the conditions that were in that contract. So, this process is on. Like I have stated, we are engaging the Ministry of Justice. As you know, it is the custodian of litigation issues pertaining to the Government. We have already engaged the ministry. It is the process we are waiting for; how we are going to be advised to proceed with the project.

Mr Speaker, even the hon. Member of Parliament for Sioma is fully engaged in this matter. So, I believe that this Government will not leave that project in that state. The reason people voted for us is so we can fix problems that were created, and we are going to fix this problem in Sioma; the Tier 3 Project.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mandandi: Mr Speaker, may times my hon. Colleagues here laugh at us when it comes to the issue of the quality of animals that we have around that area. Our hope has been that with the completion of this project, our people could have been equipped with the best practices when it comes to breeding, disease control and preventions. However, not getting a definite timeframe of when we are going to see a contractor on site sickens us. Therefore, would the hon. Minister be caring enough to the good people of Sioma, so as to give us a timeframe as to when we expect to see a contractor on site?

Mr Speaker, secondly, the Kaanja Livestock Service Centre Tier 3 Project is one of the projects in the Western Province that saw the visitation of high profile figures, meaning that it was highly monitored. What really caused the delay to an extent that the World Bank ended up withdrawing?

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, the project has been delayed and we have eventually reached a stage where the project has expired. I really understand that the Western Province in particular is one of the areas where we believe that livestock is the mainstay or the mining activity for people in the province. However, as I have alluded to in my response, this was a lack of commitment to the terms and conditions the partners had put in place. So, when time elapsed, the partners move away. So, even those high profile people who visited the place knew where the problem was. This is why I am saying that it is the desire of the New Dawn Administration to fix some of these challenges because we know how important the centre is to the people of Sioma. So, we are going to make sure that this project is attended to and this will not take long. It will be before the end of 2023. We will make sure that the project is attended to.

Mr Speaker, I could see that the hon. Member was surprised when I mentioned 2023. When I say 2023, I am talking about the Budget that we have pushed because we are talking of finding resources that are going to help us construct or finish the project. Otherwise, I will be lying or I will not be saying the truth if I tell the hon. Member that the Government is going to finish the works this year. That will not be correct. I am sure 2023 will be the year of action to make sure that the Kaanja Livestock Service Centre Tier 3 Project in Sioma is completed or attended to.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, there are so many of these abandoned centres, including in Mbabala Constituency where we have two, namely Ndundwa Agricultural Camp in Chilantambo in Chief Mapanza’s chiefdom and Macha Agricultural Camp. These were admirable places when we were growing up because they had many animals and animal diseases were being managed from those centres. What lessons have been learnt from these abandoned projects and what is the way forward?

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, the only lessons we have learnt from these projects across the country, which are abandoned, is that when one is holding public office, he/she has to commit himself/herself to service delivery. So, we have realised that there has been a lack of commitment to these projects which are doted across the country by the people who were in these public offices resulting in most of the contractors deciding to abandon the projects.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member has asked what the way forward is and my answer is: The New Dawn Administration has committed itself to service delivery. Our assurance to the people across the country is that we are going to fix these challenges that people have faced for some time now because we understand the value of these service centres. The objective of these centres was to enhance production and productivity in the sector. Unfortunately, things did not work out properly and we did not achieve the intended goals.

 

Mr Speaker, as the New Dawn Administration, we assure everybody that we are going to commit ourselves to making sure that these projects are attended to.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his responses, though his responses do not seem to be providing the confidence we are looking for. There are lawyers in all Government ministries. That is my understanding. If the hon. Minister is trying to have the contract renewed because it has expired, so that he can re-engage the contractor, I do not think it can take the length of time the hon. Minister is talking about. The next thing we are going to hear is that there is no money and that the Government is looking for money to dismantle the debt. However, we just passed the Supplementary Budget. So, his ministry needs to double its efforts. These are economic issues which will turn around the cost of business in the livestock subsector.

How long does it take for the ministry to sit with the Ministry of Justice to have these contracts relooked at so that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning can look for money for the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock, and then the ministry can start to drive the agenda of having livestock as a contributor to our economy?

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, like I said, we are waiting to be advised by the Ministry of Justice. The point I am making here is that we are waiting to be guided. The hon. Member has said that all ministries have legal persons. No, my ministry has no legal person. That is the more reason I have said we are waiting to be guided. Afterwards, the ministry is going to look at the expired contract.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, thank you for giving an opportunity to the good people of Petauke to ask a follow-up question on behalf of the good people of Sioma. The good people of Sioma depend on animals. They applied to have that facility for their benefit. What measures has the ministry put in place to curb diseases as it is waiting for this project to finish? Has the ministry provided things like dip tanks, for example?

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, indeed, as a ministry, we are providing extension services by using the staff we have. So, the extension services that were supposed to be given through the establishment of this centre are still being provided by the ministry to our farmers in that district.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I have heard the responses from the hon. Minister in which he has indicated the lapse of time and lack of commitment and the mopping up of the money. What was the position of the Government in this project? Was the World Bank funding this project directly or was it through the ministry such that the ministry had to undertake all the procurement processes, which led to the failure of adhering to the agreement with the World Bank?

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, when a co-operating partner engages us as Government, normally all the finances come through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. That is how we operate with donor funding. So, the hon. Member may wish to note that this is a project financed by our co-operating partner, the World Bank, like I stated in my preamble. The hon. Member may wish to note that we did not meet the timeframe which was set in the terms and conditions stipulated by our co-operating partners.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mandandi: Mr Speaker, I am so grateful for the response from the hon. Minister, especially that he assured us that something will be done to complete that project. However, as we wait for that assurance to happen, the hon. Minister may wish to note that the local people provided a service at that project in form of labour and materials, and because the contractor has a pending interim payment certificate (IPC), this has resulted in the poor people who provided a service to the contractor not getting what they worked for. Are we seeing the Government coming up with some measures to honour that IPC so that in return the contractor can pay the people of Sioma who worked at that Tier 3 Livestock Centre at Kaanja?

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, indeed, we are aware of the fact that there is an interim payment certificate (IPC) which has not yet been honoured. As Government or the ministry, we are alive to that fact and that is why I am assuring the people of Sioma that this matter is being given the attention that it deserves. Hence, I am going to wait for the Ministry of Justice to make sure that it engages us quickly. I assure the hon. Member that we are going to expedite the process with the ministry so that some of these issues can be addressed as soon as possible.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

______

MOTIONS

INCREASE OPERATING HOURS IN PUBLIC HEALTH FACILITIES

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Government increases the operating hours in all public health facilities in order to enhance health service delivery.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Chala (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you most sincerely for giving me yet another opportunity to move a Private Member’s Motion, this time, urging the Government to increase operating hours in all public health facilities countrywide.

Mr Speaker, for purposes of this Motion, and to contextualise my debate, allow me to define the public health facilitates in question as institutions or facilities which provides primary medical interventions and primary health care owned and controlled by an organ of state.

Mr Speaker, the World Health Organisation’s (WHO) goal of universal health coverage is that all people should have access to the health services they need, when and where they need them without financial hardships. It includes the full range of essential primary health services from health promotion to health prevention, treatment, rehabilitation, and palliative care.

Mr Speaker, in addition, Sustainable Development Goal 3 (SDG3) aspires to ensure health and well-being for all by the year 2030.

Mr Speaker, Zambia’s healthcare provision is anchored and inspired by this very global health architecture. To this effect, the Government through the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) under Development Outcome No 1 has indicated that Zambia is focused on strengthening public health and integrated health information systems. One of the ways in which this goal can be achieved is when public health facilities, providing primary healthcare are operational for the longest period possible.

Mr Speaker, I am aware that there are a few health facilities that operate beyond 1700 hours and are providing primary health services which, unfortunately, are not very comprehensive. For instance, pharmacy, radiography, and dental services among other critical aspects may be partially functional because they open during the day and close before 1800 hours. This means that the primary health facilities only attend to patients during the day, and at night, the services are not available. This is a contrary to the golden triangle of ideal health care which consists of accessibility, affordability and quality.

Mr Speaker, being a Member of Parliament for a peri-urban constituency has also given me an opportunity to interact with people whose reality is that when they have an emergency at night, they are not able to access professional primary healthcare services because the closest health facilities are either closed or operating with limited personnel. This challenge is even worse in certain parts of the rural areas of Zambia, where health facilities are far and hard to reach.

Mr Speaker, if we continue with a narrative of primary health facilities operating for a limited number of hours, we will not be able to meet our objective of providing effective, quality healthcare services close to the families. The real benefits of recruiting 11,000 health workers will only be meaningful to the people of Zambia if patients are able to access these health professionals in the health facilities when they need them.

Mr Speaker, I have interrogated the regulatory framework to see if there is an outright policy that dictates that Zambian health facilities should operate on limited timelines. My study did not find any law or policy that dictates that health facilities should open for a short period. This means that the reasons for shortening operational hours for primary healthcare facilities may due to administrative challenges. For instance, the low health staffing levels create a challenge for the lean staff to attend to work schedule demands such as having staff to cover different shifts. In some cases, there is inadequate or a total absence of senior or expert health practitioners in the evening.

Mr Speaker, the national healthcare standard for Zambia stipulates that a standard healthcare centre should be headed by designated staff at the equivalent level of a district medical officer. Unfortunately, this may not be prevailing in most of the respective constituencies.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, some primary healthcare facilities are only run by two nurses. This is a departure from the required standards of delivering quality healthcare services. This is further compounded by inadequate infrastructure such as poor lighting facilities, poor medical equipment, inadequate staff houses and security services at most public health facilities.

 

Mr Speaker, in order to deal with these administrative challenges at primary healthcare level, I suggest that:

  1. more health workers be provided for the evening shift:
  2. a police officer be provided at every health facility operating in the evening to enhance security of the facility and the workers; and
  3. incentives be provided for health workers who will be providing this very important service in the evening shift.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, may I remind this august House that this is a house keeping Motion which seeks to address some of the challenges in the health sector in as far as providing primary healthcare after the normal working hours is concerned.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Chala: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, before I debate this important Motion, let me just share my grief because I had asked a question, but I was not given time to ask a follow-up question through and through. So, I am very disappointed.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to second this important Motion which is before this august House. When you look at this Motion, you will see that we are not asking too much. It is just about increasing working hours in our health facilities, especially in our rural areas.

Mr Speaker, if you happen to be one of those who were brought up in these rural areas, you will agree with me on what is happening in these health facilities. Our people are not getting the services they need at any time.

Mr Speaker, you find that most of the clinics in rural areas only operate on Mondays to Fridays from 0800 hours to 1600 hours. On Saturdays, the clinics operate from 0800 hours to 1200 hours and Sundays, most of the clinics and health posts are closed.This is mostly happening in the rural areas. I know that some of my fellow hon. Members here are town hon. Members, but there are also some village hon. Members.

Laughter

Mr Chala: Sir, I am sure those who have been brought up in rural areas and are hon. Members in these villages will be able to support this Motion, so that our people are catered for. The Government should find a way out on how best they can help our people living in rural areas.

Mr Speaker, approximately, 61 per cent of the Zambian population live in rural areas so, why should I neglect them? If something happens at 1600 hours or 1700 hours, where would they run to? Since the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has been increased, the drifting has shifted. People are now moving from urban areas to rural areas because that is where the green pasture is, currently.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala: Therefore, it is very important to ensure that the operating hours are increased. I know that the hon. Minister of Health has some issues concerning the Motion on human capital and connectivity of electricity in some of the rural areas where some of the clinics are situated. However, if the pronouncement or directive is given to Members of Parliament, we will be able to facilitate and use the CDF and buy generators or solar panels for those clinics so that they can be working twenty-four hours.

Mr Speaker, only an hon. Member who does not originate from Zambia will not support this Motion.

Laughter

Mr Chala: I know them, but I cannot mention them. They are from the Eastern Province.

Laughter

Mr Chala: Mr Speaker, what we need to do is to support this Motion and look at it so that our people can be helped. There was a time when I was made to cross the pedicle road and went to Chembe, I felt sick and this happened to be a Sunday. I was directed to go to one the clinics, but when I went there, I found that they had closed. From there, I went to the residence of the officer manning the clinic, but I was told that he had gone to Mansa because they do not work on Sunday. So, this simply means that people in rural areas can only get sick on Monday up to Friday 1200 hours. This is very unfortunate, and that is why this Motion is urging the Government to look at that so we can see how best we can help our people.

Mr Speaker, the health of citizens is something that we are looking forward to seeing and also ensuring that people have access to these health facilities on a daily basis, any time they are infected with any disease they may contract. The hon. Minister of Health should change her mind when she comes to respond if she has already prepared her statement in the negative, …

Laughter

Mr Chala: … because I want to hear positivity. I know that we cannot do this today, but if this information is put on her table, she may consider it, as long as it has passed through this august House.

Sir, I support the Motion and I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Those of you who have been indicating, but then you are omitted, please do not get offended. The list has been unveiled to me. So, primary preference will be given to the list. Unless, we exhaust it, then we will look at other platforms.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, to thank you for giving me this opportunity to make some comments on this Motion brought by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa which says:

“In order to enhance health service delivery, this House urges the Government to increase operating hours for all public health facilities countrywide.”

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa has started by giving a wrong definition of public health institutions. Public health institutions mean or connote any facility, be it a hospital, any building where any diagnostic intervention, health advice is given, that is and which is owned by an organ of state. That is what a public health institution is. However, what he has defined are primary healthcare institutions. This means that in our context, those are institutions that start from the health post going all the way to the community, yet his Motion speaks to all public health institutions. So, already, to me, as I stand here, I am completely lost as to where I will base my debate. However, I will debate it as it appears here.

Mr Speaker, the Motion says that we must, as a matter fact, ensure that operating hours are increased in all public health institutions. It is like saying that this House should enact a policy that urges hon. Members of Parliament to be factual in their debates, yet we know that it already exists. Standing Order No. 65 exists.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila: There has never been at any one time, hon. Member for Kamfinsa, whether Government in the gone by days or today, where public health facilities have ever been restricted in the provision of health services. As a matter of fact, Governments, including the New Dawn Government are desirous of the fact that they have to bring these services as close to the people as possible twenty-four hours a day and this is happening. Okay!

Rev. Katuta: Where?

Dr Kalila: I am going to explain. All our public health institutions – first of all, even in Hon. Kang’ombe’s constituency, I know that Mwekera Clinic operates twenty-fours. I know that Ndeke Clinic operates twenty-four hours. I know that Zam-Tan operates twenty-four hours. I know that Kitwe Central Hospital operates twenty-four hours. I also know that all the Level I Hospitals in this country in all the 116 districts operate twenty-hours. I know that the hon. Member is confusing the level of care that subsists in our healthcare delivery system. Okay!

Sir, if he is talking about the primary healthcare level in the particular case, I am only assuming that he is probably talking about the health posts. Hon. Member, health posts were never meant to operate twenty-four hours. A health post, as the word says, is the smallest unit which is the first point of call for minor ailments such as your headaches, which you are still trying to explore to establish what they are. At that post, which is supposed to operate in the community to ensure that those ailments and issues which they are not able to elucidate then, they can refer them to the next point of care, which is your clinics. Basically, let me say your health centres.

Mr Speaker, almost all of them except a few, operate twenty-four hours. Now the issue is, those that do not operate twenty-four hours, it is because, as you mentioned yourself, there are some challenges to do with staffing. To give you an example, currently in this country, we require 139,000 health workers, but we only have 75,000. Now, it is bad management to build a facility and open it without any health workers in there simply because you want to operate twenty-four hours a day. The prudent thing to do is that you build, then recruit health workers of various categories according to that establishment and then open it.

Now, Mr Speaker, if you look at the Government which you support, you will see that it was not doing this kind of thing. Now, for the New Dawn Government to ensure that, including offering some of those services – In your constituency, all of them operate except two; the mini hospital at Ndeke which does not do that, and maybe, in other constituencies. I can understand, but even then, several facilities operate twenty-four hours, including health posts like in my constituency, which by the way, is very rural.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, the decision to operate twenty-four hours is based on whether you have adequate levels of staffing and equipment. If you look at what we are doing now, you will note that we have basically recruited 11,000 health workers and we are going to recruit another 3,000. We have put aside US$56 million to buy equipment to ensure that we put in these medical facilities. Eventually, they will have to migrate to ensuring that they bring these services as close to the people as possible by operating twenty-four hours.

So, Mr Speaker, this Motion is mixing up primary healthcare services, especially at health post level and the rest of the other facilities which open twenty-four hours. In any case, from a policy angle, there has never been a shift. I am sure the hon. Minister of Health will probably come and support me. The fact is that up until today, including during the previous Government, the policy still remains that all our public health facilities must operate twenty-four hours.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila: So, if there are those that are not doing that, they will eventually migrate as we continue to solve their challenges. Some of the health posts do not even have houses for health staff. So, how do you open them immediately? It is bad management to do that.

Mr Speaker, health is a very complicated undertaking which must be taken in a systematic manner. Hon. Members on both sides of the House, I urge you to reject this Motion.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Dr Kalila: First of all, because it does not speak to the current realties.

Mr B. Mpundu: How?

Rev. Katuta: Come to Chienge.

Dr Kalila: Secondly, public health facilities –Has Chienge got a district hospital? I am sure it does operate twenty-four hours. So, if you are talking about the lowest organ, then we can talk about increasing health staff so that we can staff health facilities. However, by and large, all the levels of care, from the highest up to the first level, operate twenty-four hours. So, hon. Member, perhaps, you would like to withdraw your Motion, rephrase it and come back later.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The Patriotic Front (PF) has given me a list and the Ruling Party has done the same. So, we will be alternating because the Independent hon. Members did not give us –

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Independents have not given me a list.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Mr Speaker –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The Independents have also availed me a list. So, we will be following the lists as we pick would-be speakers.

Hon. Member for Nyimba, you may continue.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Mr Speaker, –

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Mr Speaker, my point of order is on the House. I would like to know which Standing Orders have been changed, so that we know that in order for us to speak, as elected Members of Parliament who have been sent to this House, we should be registering to debate because I am not aware of this Standing Order. Is this House in order to introduce something that is not in the Standing Orders? I seek your indulgence.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: This provision is there in the Standing Orders. Hon. Member for Chienge, this is normal practice.

Mr Samakayi: Socially!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: It even goes further to state how to pick a Member to debate, that in the event that the Leader of the Opposition in the House indicates to speak, he should be given preference among other hon. Members. The same Leader of the Opposition in the House or the Government Chief Whip can avail us a list of people to debate. It is there. That is why I am always saying that you should ensure that you read the Standing Orders.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You must always ensurethat you get familiar with the Standing Orders.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, take your seat. We may just be wasting time.

Rev. Katuta: You did not cite the Standing Order.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Nyimba, continue with your debate.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving the people of Nyimba an opportunity to contribute to debate on this Motion, which is urging the Government to increase operating hours for public health facilities across the country.

Mr Speaker, maybe my hon. Colleague, the Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa was just too busy because I do not know if he is the one who did this Motion. There are some facilities such as district level hospitals which are operating twenty hours, seven days a week.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: There are district clinics which are not operating twenty-four hours seven days a week. Making a blanket proposal that every health facility should operate on a twenty-four hours basis will bring problems because there is a way we need to look at this.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Mr Speaker, the first thing we need to do is increase the number of workers in those facilities.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Mr Speaker, we come from rural areas, and maybe, this Motion was for town or urban facilities. I will give you a practical example of facilities in rural areas where we have one nurse working at the health facility. This nurse basically works throughout because if a pregnant woman comes at 0200 hours, this nurse has to wake up and start working. Even after knocking off at 1800 hours, she goes back to work. The biggest problem we should be looking at now, at this hour, is how to bring in or employ more health workers in these facilities, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: … because surely, even us here, are we sure we can work from 0700 hours to the following day at 0700 hours? It is not possible. Our workers in rural areas are overused. For me, I would love that instead of bringing this Motion, we propose that we give hardship and overtime allowances to health workers in rural facilities because these people are suffering. Yes, I agree we have problems in district hospitals where only a clinical officer remains and doctors knock off, and maybe, one nurse or clinical officer continues to run the hospital.

Sir, these are the areas we should be looking at; urban, district and provincial hospitals. These are the hospitals we should be looking at. If we see Kitwe Central Hospital not operating twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, then we should ask ourselves if we are worthy to be called a country, because that is a facility that should operate twenty-four hours. However, if you go to Luangwa Valley in Nyimba, you will find that there is a Flying Doctors Health Post, where people are distracted every day by wild animals, and a clinical officer has to be guarded by the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) and we want that person to be working twenty-four hours seven days a week alone? That will not help us. My prayer, and my contribution to this debate is that we need to rephrase this Motion whereby, maybe, we ask the Ministry of Health to increase the number of health workers to be employed from 3,000 to another 11,000. That, we will appreciate so that we can allocate more health workers in these areas.

Mr Speaker, our areas do not have health facility workers who can man our health facilities for twenty-four hours. This is what we should understand. So, we need to separate urban health facilities and a rural set up. I understand that we have people like those coming from Nkana Constituency who only have Kitwe Central Hospital and they have very little information on what happens out there in the rural areas.

Mr B. Mpundu: Iwe!

Mr Menyani Zulu: They do not understand what is happening there.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: My prayer is that if, we need to second or support this Motion, we should separate it from –

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Mr Speaker, when you say health facilities, you mean a clinic, a hospital, a general hospital, and or a district hospital. This is where I have got a problem. Unless I did not understand, but if this is the way he said it, then it is wrong.

Mr Speaker, my take on this is one is we need to increase the number of people in these facilities, so that they can work twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. However, if we pass a Motion today, where are we going to get people to work twenty-four hours a day seven days a week? What we need to start with are basics in employing more people. Secondly, we should construct more health facilities. So, if we are going to recruit 3,000 health workers next year, which is in the Budget, I am proposing another 11,000 because the 3,000 might not carter for everyone. Even after recruiting 11, 000 workers, some hospitals still luck personnel and they are still being manned by community health workers. So, we need to ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to look for money so that the Government employs more people to work in these facilities twenty-four hours seven days a week. However, we cannot start with equals before a plus or multiplication, that will really not help us. Surely, for one plus one, there has to be a formula and then there must be an answer at the end of the day. So, for us to start now, let us see to it that we employ more health workers then we can talk about working twenty-four hours seven days a week.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to comment on this progressive Motion ably moved by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa and seconded by the hon. Member for Chipili Constituency.

Mr Speaker, this Motion is progressive and apolitical. The mover of the Motion did not indicate whether these health facilities are rural or urban. The people of Wusakile are aware of the fact that there are health facilities which operate on a twenty-four hours basis countrywide. However, there are some that do not operate on a twenty-four hours basis. This is a Motion that my hon. Colleague from Nyimba has misunderstood, hence debating out of context.

Mr Speaker, access to universal health services is what all countries are thriving for because it is in line with the United Nation’s Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). For a nation like Zambia, the first thing that we did was to build these health facilities, which are doted countrywide. I thank the Patriotic Front (PF) for that undertaking. All of us have been seeing mobile hospitals and flying doctors’ services that have tried to bring these health services to those communities that are underserviced. Recently, we saw the New Dawn Government recruit more than 11,000 health workers. That was very progressive and I commend it for that. Now, what we expect from that is a trickledown effect in terms of access to quality health services of our people.

Mr Speaker, in line with this, we need to have a holistic approach of not only building these health facilities but also ensuring that they operate twenty-four hours. This is important in the sense that we get injured, get sick, give birth and die at any time of the day. It is not known at what point somebody may get sick. In Wusakile, where I am from, we have many health facilities which do not operate twenty-four hours. Kitwe Central Hospital which operates twenty-four hours is far and if one is coming from Wusakile, he/she may not make it there if the situation is bad.

Mr Speaker, if these operational hours are increased, we are going to have health workers motivated financially. We know that according to our labour laws, shift workers get differential pay. Those who work between 1800 hours and 0600 hours are paid. It is also common knowledge that there is change of shift pay that the unionised health workers have negotiated for.

Mr Speaker, when we actualise this, the Government is going to mitigate the rural urban drift that exists among the health workers. Currently, the health workers we have are de-motivated. Everyone wants to come and work in the urban areas. People should know why everyone is coming to urban areas. It is because of the differential pay that arises from these health workers and also the change of shift pay that is given to the unionised workers. The deferential pay is calculated at 15 per cent of every hour that these workers work. If this is actualised, it will embrace the spirit of equal pay for work of equal value, which is enshrined in the Employment Code Act No. 3 of 2019. It is constitutional. Every Government would like to mitigate the rural urban drift of the health workers, so that they can work in the rural areas. We cannot have a situation in this country where all workers want to come in the urban areas. It is because of what I have stated. So, to me, this Motion is apolitical. We do appreciate health workers who were employed. Where have they gone? Maybe, we need an explanation. Let them go in the health facilities so that we mitigate this situation.

Mr Speaker, through you, in Wusakile these health facilities are a sorry site. They do not operate twenty hours, but only a few do. I think two of the health facilities in my constituency operate twenty-four hours. If I may mention, these are C7 Clinic and Luangwa Clinic. They are the only clinics that operate twenty-four hours, the rest do not. We also want to appeal to you that security should be number one. At one point, in 2019/2020, there was an attempt to send health workers at Chamboli Clinic where there was no security and people were almost raped. So, security should be number one, as we look at extending the working hours. Even if this Motion is shot down, I know it is very important because it can motivate your own health workers and ensure that our people have access to quality health services.

Mr Speaker, I was born and bred in Wusakile Constituency, and I can tell you that at Wusakile Police station, there has never been a point where the door was closed because police officers were not working. From the time that police station was constructed, the doors are ever open and we have people in every shift. Health is number one, and it is key.

Why should we have health facilities where people knock off at 1700 hours? Yes, hon. Members on your right can politick where they are seated, but the people are listening. This is very real. The Budget constraint is another issue, which we may agree with them on, but we will not agree with them if they politick with this matter. It is not Zambian. It is unpatriotic and retrogressive.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity–

Hon. Member: Stand up!

Mr Samakayi: I am standing actually.

Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity that you have given to the people of Mwinilunga to debate this Motion. I thank Hon. Kang’ombe for having brought up this Motion. However, he obviously, fell short on some issues that I may highlight as we go on.

Mr Speaker, I am very happy with debates on Motions that are brought to this House under the New Dawn Government. I am saying this because the debates which are brought here have well measured responses and arguments that come from your right. Unlike before, whenever we brought Motions here, we were called names. We were told that we were jealous because of  people’spositions. Things were said here. When debating Motions, we were told that we would never form Government. Now, the New Dawn Government is showing maturity on how people in Government must behave when people on your left bring Motions. I am very happy with the debates that the New Dawn hon. Members of Parliament are putting up in this House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Samakayi: Mr Speaker, I grew up in a rural area; in Chief Kanyama of Mwinilunga, North-Western Province. I have also stayed in the cities. So, I have tasted rural life and city life. In 1972, Dr Kaunda came to open Kanyama Health Post. When the health post was opened, we had a full contingent of staff such as medical assistants, environmental technicians and four nurses. The working hours were from 0800 hours to 1700 hours between Monday and Friday, and 0800 hours to 1300 hours on Saturdays and Sundays. We had a full contingent of staff. The working hours were the same as they are today. That was in 1972, and that has been the situation up to day. Even today, the operating hours are the same.

Mr Speaker, I, however, want to say that staffing levels actually dropped during the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. However, this Government is trying to rebuild what was destroyed by the PF. I want to tell you that it is very easy to destroy. You can destroy this building in one day, but to try and rebuild it would take time. It would take years. This is what this Government is trying to do. First of all, the Government is trying to rebuild by recruiting staff. You must understand also that the country’s resources have dwindled and the economy has gone down.

Hon. Government Member: Because?

Mr Samakayi: Of course, it is because of mismanagement.

Hon. Government Members: By PF!

Mr Samakayi: Yeah, by the PF.

Mr Speaker, during the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), the economy was very strong. There are no augments about that. The PF destroyed the economy of this country. It should, therefore, give chance to this Government to try to rebuild the economy of this country, recruit staff and improve services in every area, not only in health care services, but also in every sector of our economy. We are in a rebuilding mode, but the PF was in a destructive mode.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Samakayi: That is why it was removed; it was in a distractive mode. Zambians want to rebuild their country by rebuilding the economy, and they gave that responsibility to the people who have the capacity and capabilities to do what Zambians desire and that is rebuilding the economy, so that we can take better services to our people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Samakayi: Mr Speaker, I think Hon. Kang’ombe, the mover of the Motion, defeated himself in his debate. That is what I got. He confused himself.

Hon. Member: He entangled himself.

Mr Samakayi: He entangled himself and tied himself upside down. He should have differentiated the issue because he has only been in Kitwe from the time he was born. He has never been to Mwinilunga. All of his time, he has lived in Kitwe, so he does not know what happens in Mwinilunga.

Open a bottle of water for me.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, order, hon. Member!

Hon. Government Members: Water, water.

Mr Samakayi drunk some water

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, let us avoid debating ourselves as that usually causes uproar on the other side. So, let us avoid debating ourselves.

You may continue.

Mr Samakayi: Mr Speaker, I am well guided.

Mr Speaker, the suggestion that we must employ police officers in all the facilities in Mwinilunga to guard those that work at night is not tenable. First of all, members of staff in Mwinilunga are very few.

Mr B. Mpundu: It is deploying not employing!

Mr Samakayi: Where do you get them from? Do you understand what the word “deploy” means? Do not argue with me. Can I be protected, Mr Speaker?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Do not debate while standing.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Sorry, do not debate while seated. When you are seated, you tend to make many of mistakes. That is why we are making mistakes and saying things like deployment. Deployment means someone has already been employed.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Samakayi: Yes, deployment is recruitment. Perhaps they can go and do human resource and understand some of these terms.

So, that is not tenable, it fails. You cannot do what the hon. Member is suggesting in all the facilities in urban cities and rural areas in the country. That has already been explained. In fact, Hon. Dr Kalila finished this debate. The mover must just stand up and withdraw it because he is just wasting–sorry, not wasting our time, but perhaps – this Motion must, for reasons given, fail.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Rev Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for offering the people of Chienge this wonderful moment. I thank the mover of the Motion and the seconder.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Rev. Katuta: Mr Speaker, I thank the mover and seconder of this important Motion which affects each and every hon. Member of Parliament in here.

Sir, it would have been very nice if the Motion had touched on the importance of bringing primary healthcare services closer to our people. I would like to put on record that the health posts in Chienge are considered to be hospitals. We have a district hospital, but it is very far from all angles of our area. So, our people value these health posts because they are close to them.We as the people of Chienge expect to access quality healthcare at any particular point.

Mr Speaker, normally these health posts are closed on weekends. I should not say normally because this may be the norm or it is in accordance with the Ministry of Health rules. However, I appeal to the hon. Minister that as we debate this, it may not be affecting those who are in peri-urban or urban areas, but is very important that the same hours that the rural health centres offer should be extended to these health posts in rural areas like Chienge and other constituencies.

Sir, for this country to achieve all the declarations that this Government has agreed to, for example, universal healthcare coverage, every Zambian should access quality healthcare. It means primary healthcare should be available to all.  and then it moves from there and moves to whatever they call it in this medical field.

Mr Speaker, maybe this Motion should have been looked at from the angle of these health posts being used as health centres. The reason is very clear, and it is because for us in Chienge, these health posts are hospitals. You cannot expect an expectant mother to walk 10 km to deliver her baby. In most cases, these are the nearest facilities and these very health posts that we have do not have medicine.

Sir, we have health workers in those facilities, but there is no medicine. I have been listening to some of my hon. Colleagues debate and lament the fact that healthcare will start from there and then they have to be referred to a rural health centre and then from there they go to the hospital. By the way, we do not even have ambulances. So, we expect these health posts to be providing this very essential primary healthcare. It would be prudent to not just throw the baby out with the bath water. In everything, you can pick what is important. It is about time health posts started operating just like any other health facilities in rural areas. I do not mind about urban areas, but where we are coming from, I am begging the Executive to take this very seriously.

Mr Speaker, we have had women dying because they have to be taken to facilities that are far away like Chienge District Hospital where we have only one ambulance which is supposed to carry only pregnant mothers. So, how do we care for these other patients or citizens when our country subscribes to universal healthcare coverage which was adopted around 2017 and how do we also urge the House to increase that budgetary allocation in accordance with the Abuja Declaration which requires member states to allocate at least 15 per cent of the national Budgets to health, in order for us to give the best health service to our people? So, it is very important that we look at it from this other angle.

Sir, looking at the Motion, it should have emphasised on health posts which, in most cases, are closed not because of not having workers, but for us in Chienge it is because they are not supposed to work over the weekends. Do we expect people to only get ill on Mondays? No. Anything can happen at any time. May I urge the Executive to look into that. We need health workers to work twenty-four hours seven days a week in all our health posts in Chienge. I have seen that it does not matter to others. There are people who voted for them and they should wait to get sick on working days, but for us, I am begging that we have workers work twenty-four hours a day seven days a week.

Mr Speaker, it is on record that we have had deaths because somebody goes to the clinic and they are told that it is closed and the worker is not there. Moreover, there is only one person who lives there and they may have gone on holiday.

Sir, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this Motion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Kabwe Central Constituency a chance to add a voice to this Motion. I thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, for moving the Motion urging the Government to increase the operating hours for public health facilities.

Mr Speaker, this Motion means that the hon. Member is urging the hospitals like the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), the Kitwe Central Hospital, the Kabwe Central Hospital and mini hospitals and rural health centres to be operating twenty-four hours seven days a week. As others have already mentioned, I am sure he needed more guidance to make sure that he separates or guides us exactly on what he is talking about. Many health workers have called asking what we are talking about in Parliament because they are already operating on a twenty-four basis, and so, they want guidance. They are worried because they think hon. Members are saying health workers themselves should be working twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. Now that I know that the hon. Member is talking about public health institutions, I would like to tell him that there are already enough laws which state that health institutions are supposed to operate twenty-four hours a day seven days a week.

Mr Speaker, the mover of the Motion would have urged the Government to increase the staff establishment. The reason maybe, the small units like the health posts and the rural health centres may not be working twenty-four hours is because of the staff establishment. This means the Ministry of Health has a prescribed number of workers who are supposed to operate in these health institutions. What would have been better was for the hon. Member to have urged the Government to increase the establishment. That is why you find that numbers of patients at health institutions do not speak to the number of members of staff that you would find. Sometimes, there is only one enrolled nurse because that is what the establishment requires.

Mr Speaker, the second reason you find low staffing levels is, sorry to say this, but maybe, the previous Government was not committed enough to employing more health workers in the health institutions. That, too, can be a contributing factor.

Mr Speaker, the other point which the mover of the Motion mentioned is that some health department like the pharmacy should be operating on a twenty-four hours basis. The House may wish to note that about three years ago, the Ministry of Health issued a circular urging pharmacies to operate twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. So, that is already there, and maybe, what is making people not to operate twenty-four hours are the low staffing levels since there was no employment in the previous Government. The New Dawn Government is really committed to making sure that it increases the staffing levels. This can be seen from the employment of the 11,000 plus health workers in its first year of being in Government. This coming year, the Government will, again employ more health workers, meaning it is already committed to making sure that it employs more workers and improves on the staffing levels. Thereafter, we can talk about increasing the staff in these health centres.

Mr Speaker, I know, as the hon. Member mentioned, that Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) talk about improved health services and that is what the New Dawn Government is doing. That is why the Government wants to improve the economy of this country. Once the economy is improved, the Government is going to have fiscal space for recruiting more and more health workers, so that small units like health posts or rural health centres can have more staff to start operating twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. You can even see the commitment from the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Our President has urged hon. Members to build more health posts. As we build these health posts and as the economy improves, more health workers will be sent and they will be operating twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. There is no problem. Let us improve the economy, so that we have more resources to even recruit more health workers.

Mr Speaker, I urge the mover of the Motion that going forward, to give space to the New Dawn Government to improve the economy, but firstly, let us talk about staff establishment. When we increase the staff establishment, it will give us the power to increase recruitments in these health facilities. More has been said, but with these few words, I say it is very difficult for me to support the Motion because it is somehow ambiguous. The hon. Member did not guide us very well.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E Tembo (Feira) was not in the House.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Absent without leave.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving the people of Mpika this opportunity to add their voice to this very important Motion. There must be a time when we all realise why we are here in this House.

Mr Speaker, we are here to represent the people, the people in Mukungule who move 50km to access the next health post. That is what we are here for and these are the people this Motion wants to serve.

Mr Speaker, I am at pains to understand the reasons being advanced by those who are against this Motion. It is a very straight-forward Motion done in the best interest of our people, the very people that we claim to represent. Maybe, this goes to show why most of our hon. Colleagues are on the wanted list by the electorates.

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, 99 per cent of households in urban areas are within 5 km to a health centre. In rural areas, such as where I come from, I will give you an example of the people in Mwamfushi, they move 25 km to go and find the next health facility. When they go there after 1700 hours they will find no health worker to attend to them.

Mr Speaker, this Motion, if I can be allowed to remind those on your right, seeks to cure that mischief. That is why I stand here to support this Motion moved by the learned hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa Constituency who came here with the people of Zambia at heart.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, can you protect me from these hecklers on your left – oh right.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order! Which ones are on my left? These ones are on my right (pointing at the UPND hon. Members).

Mr Kapyanga: The hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi has turned himself into another debater whilst seated.

Mr Speaker, I will give you an example of another area in my constituency called Chisala Village. Our people there move at least 30 km to access health services. When they go there after 1700 hours, they are turned back because there is no one to attend to them and the facility is closed.

Mr Speaker, we know the cost implication of this. However, it cannot be as much as the cost of holding the Kabushi and Kwacha by-elections. We can actually channel those resources to employing more health care –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, avoid fighting with the stem of the microphone.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, I am not fighting with it. I am holding it so that it carries my voice.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: There is no need to hold it.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, those resources that are being wasted in by-elections can be channelled to recruiting more health workers who can be working even after 1700 hours and attend to our people. The recruitment of 3,000 or 4,000 health workers should not be celebrated. We need more health workers to attend to our people in rural areas. The earmarked recruitment of those health workers should be channelled to rural health facilities, so that they can attend to our people beyond 1700 hours. If our people go to health facilities in rural areas after 1700 hours, they should be attended to because there is a health worker there to attend to them.

Mr Speaker, this is what this Motion is seeking to do. I see nothing wrong or ambiguous with the Motion. The Motion is very straight-forward. We cannot be talking about facilities in Lusaka where most of the people who are employed get transfers and come back. We cannot be talking about facilities within town in Kitwe. I mean, are we trying to mock the people in rural areas. This Motion is directly talking about the people and health facilities in rural areas, and resources are there. We can actually tax the mines properly. We can remove the tax concessions on the mines and raise enough money to fund the health sector.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Kalila: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I apologise for disturbing the flow of debate from my hon. Colleague. However, Standing Order No. 65 specifically relating to content of speech says a member who is debating shall confine his or her debate to the subject matter under discussion.

Mr Speaker, the Motion on the Floor relates to increasing operating hours to public health institutions countrywide, which includes urban as well as rural areas. Secondly, the Motion does not relate to access on account of distances because that is an infrastructure issue, which is a separate subject altogether.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member, therefore, in order to disorient this House by veering off the subject matter which is under discussion in order for him to appear relevant when he is not?

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member is out of order ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: ... in disorienting himself and trying to mislead the House and the sub-region. Thank you.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Kapyanga: It is always a good thing when the Speaker is involved in the debate.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, what I was saying is that –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, at times, it is good to stick to the debate. Certain utterances are unnecessary. I know politicians often times want to look very relevant, but it is not necessary. You can continue.

Mr Kapyanga: I stand as guided, Mr Speaker. What I was saying is that in the 2022 Budget, we have given concessions to the mines and we are going to lose K2.4 billion, which is the same money which could be used for deploying more health workers to attend to our people in rural areas twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. Imagine a situation where our people have moved 30 km to go and access the next health facility only to be told that there is no health worker to attend to them. This is what this Motion intends to address. This is what it has been designed for by a very caring hon. Member of Parliament from the great people of Kamfinsa.

Mr Speaker, like I said in the beginning, I see nothing wrong with this Motion. It is supposed to be supported by all of us. All of us were voted for by the people, and most of us are from rural areas. This Motion is speaking for the people in far-flung areas who have no access to primary healthcare because facilities close at 1700 hours.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament who mean well for our people –

Mr Mweene: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

I think I cautioned you, hon. Member. Refrain from touching these microphones. Just to fix the stem of the microphone is at a cost. At this institution, we were instructed by the Government to be very cost-effective. So, let us ensure that at all times, we do not touch these microphones. Once you position it, you will be audible enough.

Mr Mweene: Hon. Member, can you sit down, please (pointing atMr Kapyanga).

Interruptions

Mr Mweene: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I am very disappointed with the hon. Member on the Floor of the House due to the manner he is debating. In spite of guiding him –

Interruptions

Mr Mweene: Standing Order No. 65, Mr Speaker, is on relevance of speech. There is a certain behaviour I have seen in the hon. Member. He is perpetually putting his hands in his pocket, and whenever he is putting his hand in his pocket, the pocket is shaking like this. Hence the speech coming out is not in order.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Mpika in order to put his hand in his pocket and shake the pocket and give us information that is not correct on the Floor of this House?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, order, order!

I think the posture that we portray when we are speaking tells a lot. Let us be orderly. As parliamentarians, let us ensure that when we are in the House, we portray a picture of good leadership. As parliamentarians, let us ensure that we are orderly at all times.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The issue of shaking, ...

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: ... I do not know whether or not it was on a light note that there was something shaking. I cannot know. You will start scaring the presiding officers that maybe, a missile is supposed to land.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, I almost did like this (lifting his hands to his head) to avoid the cacophony. Let me proceed.

Mr Speaker, what I was saying is that the people in rural areas need to be cared for, and this is what this Motion intends to do. I see no reason an hon. Member of Parliament from a rural constituency like mine should be against this Motion. We were brought here by the people and the Motion is there to speak for the people of Zambia and not Kang’ombe’s family or the seconder’s family, but the people of Zambia in rural areas. We want them to be attended to at a health facility even when they go there at 2400 hours. This is what this Motion seeks. This Government was elected on the premise of it being a pro-poor party. So, I see no reason why we should have all these points of order when points are flowing from debaters.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, let me appeal to able hon. Members of Parliament, the patriots who carry the people of Zambia at heart, those who know that they are here by the will of the Zambian people to support this Motion and ensure that it goes through, so that tomorrow, the Zambian people can be going to health facilities even at 2400 hours; twenty-four hours a day seven days a week.

Mr Speaker, I thank you and appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament, especially those on the right who have been put on the wanted list by electorates to support this Motion, so that they exonerate themselves from the wrath of the people.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Mr Speaker, I will be very brief and precise.

Sir, in this country, we have 1,110 health centres and 1,419 health posts. The mover of the Motion is seeking to cure some nuisance, that is, the inconvenience that people may be getting each time they are feeling unwell and they want to get express attention from the medical facilities.

Mr Speaker, this Motion leaves me very baffled, baffled in the sense that this Government is not the first Government in this Republic. Fifty-eight years down the line, we have been operating even in times when there have been epidemics such as cholera. Even in times when there have been epidemics, certain centres remained open twenty-four hours a day seven days a week to attend to that particular jurisdiction that had been hit or attacked. I have looked very high and low to see what the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa is trying to cure, which nuisance he is trying to cure by bringing such a Motion which his very Government, the Patriotic Front (PF), failed to bring in ten years. I think we must learn to be fair with one another and stop adventure by misadventure or bringing things here like one banging an open door.

Mr Speaker, give me one area where you have heard of someone who has died because they have a slight headache. That is why there are referral hospitals. I want the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa Constituency to understand, in debating this Motion, the practical thing we are doing in order to try and resolve and address the issue he is concerned about.

Mr Speaker, today, in 2022, we still have our girl children and mothers delivering away from the facilities of maternity provisions. Is that right or wrong? There are people who deliver their children away from facilities. What we are doing, under our Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is that we have given ourselves a target of ensuring that where there is a local court, primary school, and agricultural camp, we will have a maternity wing that has got all the facilities that one needs to give life. I want the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa Constituency and all the other hon. Members who are thinking like him and who I suppose will stop thinking like him once I am done with this short discourse, to agree with us that our target of 2024 year end, that there is no social growth point which will not have all these facilities I have mentioned.

Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member brought a Motion such as that by the year end 2024, he would like every Zambian to give life in sanitary conditions in a proper maternity wing, I will be the first one to support him. Why would he want a rural health centre to remain open? Some of the people who seconded his Motion suggested that we must now deploy police officers to guard a nurse.

Hon. UPND Member: That is scary.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, he knows very well that when someone is inconvenienced by maybe, a stomach ache, in the homes where we live, we have first aid.

Rev. Katuta: Question!

Mr Nkombo: We do. You do not rush to the hospital simply because maybe, you had food poisoning. You do not do that. So, even these social growth points, I put it to my hon. Colleague and friend that every health centre will have staff living within the vicinity. That is the truth. So, if an emergency happens, and the matter requires to be referred, they will look for an ambulance and take them to the referral hospital.

Mr Speaker, the idea of just keeping health post ajar for the nurse to now become a guard and wait for patients to come at midnight, I think it is colloquial thinking. We must look at where our bread is buttered in terms of prioritising what we need to do for our people. Let us not have adventure of misadventure and bring this issue that involves man hours, that 1,110 health centres and –

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Nkombo: I am just looking at the rural Member of Parliament. I am also a rural Member of Parliament, by the way, because the greater part of Mazabuka Constituency is a rural area. There is no crisis there. There is no crisis about this Motion and I can bet my bottom kwacha. There is no crisis to warrant this august House to sit and debate on a non-issue. Who is crying and pushing this agenda?

Mr Syakalima: Patriotic Front (PF).

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, it is the PF, which had its time in ten years. Why did it not just click it? The PF Members know very well that we have huge challenges regarding expenditure of employing police men all over the show to guard one nurse who will be working in the night shift because of the debt they left us with. I have been told to try and go easy on the PF and the debt it left us in. It is these same things that make me feel desensitised about the malaise they left with us, and so, I have to talk to remind them that we still have a debt mountain to clear, which they left themselves. The act of employing 11,000 nurses within ten months of being in office should tell you that we are a serious group of people.

Rev. Katuta: Are they on the payroll?

Mr Nkombo: They are on the payroll.

Mr Speaker, just that alone, I will not even go to the education issue, just to employ 11,000 front line health workers is reason enough for Hon. Kang’ombe to divert from thinking like this; bringing the Motion here to ask us to just keep every health post ajar, no. In any case, if I went into Kamfinsa now, I can assure him that I will find someone ready to attend to an ill person. If I went into Kamfinsa at 1400 hours on a Saturday, I will still find somebody ready to attend to patients. Unless, it is Kamfinsa alone then, it requires microscopic attention so that we deal with Kamfinsa alone. However, he should not come with a wide spectrum kind of treatment for an ailment that does not exist. There is no nuisance to cure here in this Motion that he is bringing to us. I feel saddened because really, we should be looking at more challenging things than opening clinics on a twenty-four hours basis, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … just for the heck of it. That is what I would call it. To even try to appeal to pity, he says in the rural areas, – what rural? We are all from the rural areas. I am a headman myself. I look after 268 households in Chief Mwanachingwala’s area and we live in the plains. We are batwas, ourselves. The nearest clinic is about 7 km from my own village, where I am headman. This crisis is not there. So, if it is not there in Chief Mwanachingwala’s area, why would it be there where the hon. Member comes from?

Mr Speaker, maybe, we need to isolate those areas that are suffering this kind of disservice and deal with the issue in that manner. To open 1,110 health posts just ajar, the whole time twenty-four hours a day seven days a week and three hundred and sixty-five days a year is retrogressive. Sincerely speaking, how many people has anyone recorded as having suffered a serious ailment as a result of not being attended to at midnight at a rural health post? The hon. Member may count them for me from one palm of his hand.

Mr Speaker, going forward, I think that we must try to work together, as the President said, to do those things that are achievable. For now, we are giving our hon. Colleagues, courtesy of the leadership of Mr Hichilema, an undertaking that with their co-operation we will be sorting each other. When I say sorting, I do not mean it in that manner. I mean to separate the men from the boys who really want to serve people. This is because we have said by year end of 2024, there shall be no one who will be delivering from a tree. If we hear that in his constituency somebody has delivered from a tree, then he will know that he is behind himself and that this particular Motion where he just wants clinics to be ajar is not helping him at all.

Mr Speaker, it is never going to assist him at all. My plea to Hon. Kang’ombe is that as he winds up this Motion –

Mr Kang’ombe: Question!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I want him to attend to me. My request to him is to withdraw this Motion. That is the reasonable thing for him to do because even in his heart of hearts, he knows that this is not workable at this point in time. It is not practical. So, my request to my dear brother and friend is that he may consider withdrawing this Motion, so that we can move and do more productive things.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Banda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Motion that is on the Floor of this House. Firstly, I just want to say that certain problems have very simple solutions. Like everyone has lamented, I also want to mention that it is not by increasing the number of hours that our health personnel should work that will change the status quo, it is probably the need to increase the number of health personnel in such facilities. Most of the facilities have no electricity if we talk of the rural facilities. Most of these facilities are in very far and isolated places.

Hon. Member: You will break the microphone.

Mr E. Banda: I will not break it.

Hon. Member: Your friend broke one.

Mr E. Banda: I do not have that energy.

Mr Speaker, allow me to differ with the Mover of the Motion that we should increase the number of hours that our health personnel should work, for very simple reasons. One of the reasons is that we have got very few health personnel in most of our rural health facilities. I just want to look at the rural health centres side. These people work from 0600 hours probably up to 1700 hours. To imagine that they can continue working up to the following day, I do not know how we differ in thinking. Probably, we want to bring problems to a few who are already serving our people.

Laughter

Mr E. Banda:  Mr Speaker, you might go to a health facility like in my constituency, which is a full-time rural constituency. I tried most of the time going round the constituency as late as 0100 hours or 2400 hours just to make a call. The only health worker will wake up and come to attend to whoever is there. This has been happening.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Banda: Then we cannot subject them to go and stay there from 0700 hours up to the following day. Most of the people who are helping out at a health post are referred to as CHAs meaning Community Health Assistants. During weekends, it be Saturday or Sunday, if you go to a health facility, you will still be attended to meaning we do not have a shortage. Now, why should we come here and say that we need to increase the working hours for these health personnel? Do we want to kill them with stress or exhaustion? They are already over exhausted. We just need to say or advise the Government to employ more, though I know that no one can come on the Floor of this House and say we urge this Government to employ more health workers. Probably, it is the only Government that I have seen employing more than 11,000 health workers.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Banda: Mr Speaker, this is why most of my hon. Colleagues will not come here to urge the New Dawn Government to employ more health workers. Instead, they will try to come through the back door that we have this Motion to be supported.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mposha: Tell them.

Mr Kang’ombe: They are listening to you in Serenje.

Mr E. Banda: Mr Speaker, I know that in Serenje, they are listening to what I am saying. I am not only speaking for the community like myself who is not a health worker, I am also speaking for the health workers themselves.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Are you sure?

Mr E. Banda: Yes, I am sure. They know that they do so much. You know, when we talk of rural constituencies, we are talking of constituencies that have got a lot of hardships. To start with, you must remember that that these people work under very difficult circumstances where in some health facilities, they do not even have solar power. They do not have transport and they do not have running water then we want to subject them to work twenty-four hours.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Banda: Honestly, what are we doing?Let us not just speak for the sake of speaking.

Hon. PF Members: Awe iwe, what are you saying?

Mr Kang’ombe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: You are the mover!

You will respond.

Mr E. Banda: Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia, indeed, are watching.

Mr Kang’ombe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Banda: I am sure most of the people here in Zambia feel sorry about how these...

Mr Kang’ombe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Banda: ... health workers work under very difficult circumstances. Mr Speaker, not to waste much time, I want to mention here that the people of Muchinga …

Mr Kang’ombe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Banda …disagree with this Motion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya (Mansa Central): Mr Speaker, I rise to debate in moderation, …

Mr Nkombo: Like me, Doc.

Dr Chilufya: …the Motion on the Floor of the House. I will give a measured input into the debate.

Mr Speaker, health services in the country are provided across the continuum of care and health facilities are graded. Health facilities will either provide public primary healthcare facilities or primary healthcare services or tertiary level health services. Health services in the country are provided across the continuum of care beginning with promotive health services, preventive health services, curative health services and –

Hon. UPND Members: Quality!

Mr Nkombo: Okay, tell us if you agree or disagree.

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, across the continuum of care, rehabilitative health services are also provided.

Mr Speaker, when we look at public health facilities that are accredited to provide primary healthcare services, we see that they will work during a particular period of the day

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, when it comes to emergency hospital services or emergency health services and tertiary health services or hospital services, all public health facilities in the country operate twenty-four hours.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya: Now, Mr Speaker, we must understand one aspect; the distress of the hon. Member of Parliament who has brought a Motion to the Floor of this House is that in his constituency, there are primary healthcare facilities that close at 1400 hours and 1500 hours. Now, that is a matter that needs to be addressed, as an isolated item.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Dr Chilufya: The hon. Minister of Health is summoned to ensure that that is resolved because primary healthcare services must be provided between 0700 hours and 1600 hours…

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya: …and not 1400 hours. All hospitals in the country, the Government that preceded that Government (pointing at the Front Bench), ensured that the policy was that you operate twenty-four hours. Not only hospitals operating twenty-four hours, even pharmacies in these hospitals were ordered to operate twenty-four hours.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya: Why? It is because there are people who are either students and cannot attend specialist clinics in the morning or they are Chief Executive Officers (CEOs) or executives in parastatals or Government and do not have time to attend specialist clinics in the morning, but they still require to refill their drugs at a particular time of the month or week. So, they do not need to come to the facility at 0900 hours. Pharmacies dispense even at midnight. You can go to the University Teaching Hospitals (UTH) today and get your Antiretrovirals (ARVS) at midnight. This is a reason we even established the Antiretroviral Therapy (ART) clinic on Saturdays and Sundays to ensure that students and busy executives are able to access these health services outside their routine professional work.

Mr Speaker, I must emphasise that that clinic was not meant to introduce services for gays, no. It was meant to introduce services for everyone. So, universal health coverage demands that we provide healthcare services for every one everywhere. Therefore, we must configure health services to be available at all times, but each facility is accredited to provide a particular level of service. So, primary healthcare services that include antenatal healthcare services, under five clinic and the basic clinical care services will be available during a period of time and the human capital available at that facility will be such that they will be able to work during certain particular period of time.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya: However, for hospital services, Mr Speaker, the policy of the Government before the current one was that, all health facilities at that level would operate twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. We went beyond that call and included even pharmacies. That is why when you check the indicators towards epidemic control of the Human Immunodeficiency Virus and Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (HIV/AIDS), you will find that we were able to put more than 90 per cent of all HIV positive patients on ART towards epidemic control.

Mr Speaker, I must emphasise that we must address specifics, in Kamfinsa and in constituencies where certain matters that the mover has brought to the Floor of the House exist. If there are people who are just undisciplined and close facilities before 1600 hours or 1700 hours, it must be dealt with. However, let it be made very clear that the PF Government had a policy to ensure that public health facilities at the appropriate level of accreditation provided health services twenty-four hours a day seven days a week, including pharmacies. Primary healthcare services were provided during the appropriate time during the day. We must address, hon. Minister, the concerns of the hon. Member of Parliament who has brought the Motion to the Floor of the House for those facilities in Kamfinsa and in certain constituencies where people may actually be breaching what we have just said here.

Mr Speaker, I have debated in moderation and I urge the Government to ensure that all public health facilities continue to provide health services twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. Primary healthcare facilities should be able to provide health services for the period of time that is recognised in the accreditation process. In terms of recruitment of human resource, I must make it very clear that where we are coming from, we had health facilities that were manned by casual daily employees. We have made progress by ensuring that all these health facilities now have at least one qualified health professional. I do know that today, the Government is boasting of recruiting 11,000 health workers in year one and I applaud it for that.

Mr Speaker, I, however, want to remind the Government that in year one; 2016/2017, we recruited 10,000 health workers. At that particular time, we mopped the streets of all health professionals. We did not leave a single one. In year two, we did not recruit the 3,000 that Hon. Dr Musokotwane is talking about, we recruited 7,500. In year three, we recruited 5,000. By the time we were leaving Government, we had 24,000 plus health workers recruited. So, we set the bar and I am –

Ms Sefulo: Question!

Dr Chilufya: – indicators do not lie and the hon. Minister can bring records to the Floor of this House. In the health sector, you do not even need to claim that you have done better than the other. All you need to do is look at the performance indicators, they are there. Numbers do not lie. So, we set 30,000 health workers as the target to recruit in five years and we recruited 25,000 plus. Therefore ...

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Chilufya: ...we expect the Government to match that bar.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to also add a voice to the debate on this Motion and I would like to speak in a particular perspective. Let me start by stating that a healthy nation is a wealthy nation.

Mr Speaker, I come from a constituency that is vast and has a huge population, yet it is serviced by about six health facilities. Now, the discussion over this Motion can be handled from two fronts; from the technical perspective as well as a layman’s perspective. I would not want to go into arguing with personnel like Dr Kalila and Dr Chilufya because they are speaking from a very technical perspective. When you look at this Motion from a technical perspective, you see that health facilities are graded. We have very primary health facilities, which we mostly refer to as health centres.

Sir, we also have something that is between secondary and primary health facilities, which we refer to as mini hospitals, like one facility which I have in my constituency where the hon. Minister was last week, which is Buchi. Then, we have what we call secondary health facilities, which are in most cases, district hospitals. Of course, we have first level hospitals like the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and Kitwe Teaching Hospital (KTH), which is in my constituency. Now, the technical people would also grade illnesses into some that must be attended to at a very primary health facility and those that may be attended to at a secondary health facility. There are also those that may go to a first level hospital. However, this Motion must be discussed from a layman’s perspective. From a layman’s point of view, when I am sick, I want to be attended to whether I am sick of a headache or whether I have malaria or I am heavily pregnant.

Mr Speaker, that is why, for me, when this matter is being discussed, I ask myself what the meaning of investing so much money in building health facilities all over, employing so many health personnel is, yet out there, people die within the peripherals of health facilities on account that these facilities are not functioning in the night. The notion that a healthy facility operates during the day is obviously conceived from a particular perspective of thinking that illnesses come during the day. We are all aware that in fact, most illnesses hit in the night. So, we must, therefore, think of the different people who are living in the peripherals where most of our Members of Parliament come from, whose facilities close at 1700 hours. Now, I have heard certain lamentations and submissions over this argument and I am trying to see what the thinking is. Look, first level hospitals have been operating from time immemorial twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. Secondary health facilities have been operating twenty-four hours a day seven days a week from time immemorial. Some of these mini hospitals have equally been operating twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. The issue at hand are those primary health facilities. This is the basic discussion at hand because yes, the Motion is stating that we increase operating hours for all public health facilities.

Mr Speaker, when the Motion says let us increase operating hours for all public health facilities, is it telling you to increase operating hours for those that are already operating twenty-four hours a day seven days a week? No, Sir. It is basically telling you to consider these that are not operating twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. In most cases, these are the facilities that most of our people access. When you go to Luena, you must ask how many facilities are operating twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. In my constituency, which is being serviced by six health facilities, there are only three of those that are operating twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. The other three are not operating that late or they stop operating at 1700 hours, if not 1600 hours. If you look at the geographical size of the catchment areas of these facilities, you will see that they are vast. However, we consider the economic perspective, the incomes of our people. At night, you will need to book a taxi to take you to a hospital that may be operating in the night. We know that the economy is biting. How then do we think that our people are going to afford to access these facilities that are in far-flung areas when ailment knocks on their doors?

Mr Speaker, it is only prudent that we provide access to health facilities for our people after investing so much money building infrastructure. This is infrastructure we have continued to build because the call on Government is to ensure that we make health facilities available almost at the door step of every community. So, we have invested so much money. The New Dawn Government has gone an extra mile to provide staffing, which has been the biggest challenge. In my thinking, the 11,000 health personnel that were recruited in 2022 and the 3,000 plus that will be employed in 2023 as pronounced in the Budget should then be spread across the other facilities that are not operating twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. Now, what we do here is that when we bring a Motion to urge Government to do a particular undertaking and the Motion goes, it compels Government to provide the necessary requisite to make that happen. In this case, I heard the argument from one hon. Member of Parliament, who said, in our villages or constituency – because he is a village MP–we have one health person at a facility. How then can this,–

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

So, some of us who come from village constituencies are village Members of Parliament?

Mr B. Mpundu: Like you, Mr Speaker, you come from a village constituency.

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: Mr Speaker, when the Government is urged to do something through a Motion, it is then mandated by this august House to take the requisite steps to make something functional. In this case, if there is a facility that is serviced by one person, and this Motion goes through, the Government will be compelled to make provisions for extra establishments for personnel and security to be deployed to that facility, if they are not there.

So, Mr Speaker, basically, what we are doing here is a responsibility of a responsible elected people to ensure that we respond to the World Health Organisation (WHO) dictate that health must be accessible to all because access to health is a fundamental right. I want to put it that this Motion is non-controversial. It seeks to save your people and my people.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East) Mr Speaker, I thank you, sincerely, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion that was moved by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa and seconded by the hon. Member for Chipili.

Mr Speaker, most technicalities have already been said. So, I want to adopt the debate delivered by Hon. Dr Kalila, the hon. Member for Lukulu East as mine. In the same vein, I want to adopt approximately 80 per cent of the debate that was delivered by Hon. Dr Chitalu Chilufya as mine.

Rev Katuta: Question!

Mr Kambita: My father taught me that when bishops have spoken, you as a deacon, must just summarise and dwell on the substance that will help sink the message into those who are listening. That is exactly what I am going to do because people who technically deal with this topic have spoken enough on the technicalities.

Mr Speaker, in trying to spice up the debate, I want to explain a little bit because I had a stint in the Ministry of Health at Central Board of Health (CBoH) then. Health services in this country, as rightly put by the technical people are actually divided in a continuum, as he stated it. There is primary health care, which is synonymous with people going to seek medical services, primary as the word sounds. Most of this is found at health centres, health posts, mini hospitals and almost all first level hospitals, those which are called district hospitals. Of course, some high-level hospitals also offer primary health care.

Sir, by primary health care, we are talking of issues to do with treatment, health promotion and prevention. In that line, you have health workers dealing with prevention. In that line, you have environmental health technologists and those dealing with treatment such clinicians, who are clinical offers and nurses in those institutions. There are also maternal and child health nurses who offer under-five services and the like. The kind of service, which is done at primary healthcare level must be distinguished. Most services offered in that category are not of an emergency nature, if you have observed. So, we must pick it from there. Most primary healthcare services are not of an emergency nature, unless otherwise.

Sir, there is also a level which deals with hospital services. Usually, these are first level hospitals, which attend to people who need to be admitted. Then there are those which offer tertiary services, which include education, such as university teaching hospitals. At such hospitals, they operate on twenty-four hours seven days a week. Even if district hospitals offer primary healthcare services, they also operate twenty-four hours seven days a week, there is a reason this was distinguished.

Mr Speaker, I now want to divert the debate into a technicality that you need to understand. In delivering healthcare services, you need staff, and that would cost the Government money. At the moment, we have a shortage of staff. We need more staff in order for us to operate at the level the mover of the Motion is suggesting. We recently employed above 11,000 staff to deal with the gap that exists. In finance, we have what we call cost drivers. Therefore, what the hon. Member is suggesting here is a cost driver. By increasing the number of hours to operate in all public health institutions, we would actually be triggering a cost that will culminate into salaries. Therefore, we should be ready to spend more money. The last time I checked, I found that if we are to operate at that level, we would need approximately K4 billion. With such a fiscal space, as debated by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, how can we afford such a move? It would be wishful thinking.

Mr Speaker, I want to thank the mover for moving such a good Motion because he is concerned about his people. However, reality just shows that we cannot afford that at the level of fiscal space, which we have now. It is all clear we need to prioritise. That is why I think those who thought of segmenting services into primary healthcare and secondary healthcare had to put it that way so that primary healthcare services are offered first, and if there is anything that would require emergency attention, then it is attended to. In any case, institutions, which offer primary healthcare do operate on a twenty-four-hour basis. You have heard of health workers on call. Most health workers in rural health centres are actually on call. You even find a phone number for a member of staff who is on call. Therefore, that service is already being provided.

So, we agree with the hon. Member, but the modus operandiis already servicing these places the way the hon. Members wants it to be, except in a systematic way under the restriction of the resources available. Yes, what the hon. Member is suggesting is good to have. It is what we call as nice to have. However, we must look at the resource envelope. In Lunda, we have a proverb which says, you first check how much mealie meal you have before you put water on fire to cook nshima.

Hon. Government Members: Say it in Lunda!

Mr Kambita:Asambilan’gakutalawun’ga, henohukandawadikili.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: So, we need to check the fiscal space before we come up with wild suggestions of running all health institutions on twenty-four-hours a day seven days a week basis.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Mr Speaker, first of all, the mover of the Motion did indicate in his copiers notes that at a certain clinic, there are only two nurses. However, he wants these nurses to work twenty-four-hours a day seven days a week.

Mr Kang’ombe: Not those two!

Mr Syakalima: Everywhere.

So, I want him to understand that health workers are stretched. There is what we call psychological burnout. If you stretch them, you are now making them sick.They will be stressed, they will burnout and will not give service. So, we must be very careful with what we want to put across. So, the very nurse who they want to work like that will go to an earlier grave than the patient they want to save. They will become patients themselves.

Mr Speaker, we all know that we have achieved 54 per cent of our health worker requirements and we still need 46 per cent. I want to remind my hon. Colleague, Dr Chilufya, that if the Patriotic Front (PF) would have been recruiting 5,000 health workers every year for ten years, we would have achieved 50,000. It was not good enough. So, they should not say that they did something which was good enough.

Sir, this is where we have a problem accommodating this Motion. His performance was very dismal.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Syakalima: This is the Motion I am addressing. What we need to be doing, and I think my hon. Colleague in the Ministry of Health understands, we could have been advocating for the recruitment of more teachers, so that our population becomes educated. When the population gets educated, research has shown that it adheres to hygiene and to all these primary health requirements that we have. A population which is educated can save our health facilities and even save our money. Cholera is a disease of hygiene. Educated people adhere to the regimens of what doctors say. So, this is where we must be checking things. When you educate a population, you will have fewer diseases. It works that way.

Mr Speaker, the establishment is now about 139,590, but we only have 75,000 teachers. You can imagine if they had recruited 50,000 plus this 75,000. We could have now gone probably up to 125,000 against the backdrop of 139,590. The population is growing. I am not saying that we are stuck. We, therefore, could have remained with a few things to carry over on what they have done, but we feel as if we have to start afresh. We are almost starting afresh.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Syakalima: So, to our hon. Colleague, the mover of the Motion, the PF did a dismal job.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Syakalima: I know he was not there and I can excuse him, but …

Ms Sefulo: He was a mayor!

Mr Syakalima: … but he needs to be consulting them and ask them where they were because they have now made your Motion appear not to be good because of their behaviour.

Mr Kampyongo:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Since he was a mayor, he was probably too far away from decision making. I am talking about the people who were making decisions which have now made him realise that we needed to take personnel into these rural facilities.

Mr Speaker, never again should Zambians trust the PF because …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to raise this very important point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

Sir, the people of Zambia expect members of the Executive to give policy direction. The Motion on the Floor is very clear and the people who have been debating, including the former Minister of Health, who was giving valuable statistics, were very clear. Is the hon. Minister of Education in order to start making wild innuendoes and veiled allegations against the Patriotic Front (PF)? You were guiding that we should not debate ourselves. We have been listening to the hon. Minister and trying to make sense out of his debate. Is he in order to continue on that trajectory as a Member of the Executive?

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: There are so many people trying to help you, Sir, from their seats, which is dishonourable to this august House.

Sir, is he in order to continue on that trajectory when you ably guided that we should not debate ourselves and we should focus on the Motion on the Floor? I seek your serious ruling on the hon. Minister, so that he can focus on the Motion before us. I seek your ruling.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: If I heard the hon. Minister correctly, he was saying they. He did not say you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

I am making my ruling. Do you want me to rule according to your expectations or what you want?

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No. I heard the hon. Minister speaking in the third person. Ministers are also allowed to speak and inform the nation because as they are speaking, they are setting Government policy so that the masses out there are able to hear what the Government is able to offer. So, the hon. Minister was not out of order. May the hon. Minister continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, as I was saying, sometimes, the power of social shame must be dawning on us. If we do not have that, we are bound to repeat the things we were doing wrongly. When we discuss these issues, we are talking about how we could have solved this problem a long time ago and we are now struggling over it. If they do not want to be reminded, I will remind them.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: We cannot forget the lessons of history. People are dying in hospitals and we do not have full establishments up to this time. Today, they cannot come and say that we should not remind them. I will remind them.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, they never recruited the numbers that they were supposed to recruit.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Syakalima: It is true. Here they are. 139,000 against the backdrop of 75,000. So, I will tell them. This was dismal and it should never repeat itself. We have started on the right journey to curing the issue of this Motion. That is what we are doing.

Hon. Government Members: Quality!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, just check in the next five years and another ten years, and you will see where this country will go in terms of health.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Syakalima: Check the combination of education and health ten years from now. Zambians will regret having ever put the PF into power.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: They will regret it. I know human beings regret. Now, these do not know regret and that is why I was saying that the power of social shame does not dawn on some of us and we must learn to be ashamed of what we did against the country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr J. E. Banda (PetaukeCentral): Mr Speaker, firstly, on behalf of the good people of PetaukeCentral, thank you. We come to this House to debate the ideologies of the people we represent, and not according to the partieswe represent. So, we should put the people’s interest first.

Mr Speaker, in PetaukeCentralConstituency, we have heath posts. Before I go in that direction, let me make other hon. Members understand this Motion. This Motion is saying that we should increase the operation hours, not that if one nurse or doctor is on duty and doing a six-hour shiftthen we must increase his/her shift. This is according to what the good people of Petauke have researched, and my own research. Everyone is free to conduct a research on behalf of the constituency he/she represents.

Mr Jamba: That is a wrong research.

Mr J. E. Banda: Go and ask the people of Mwembezhi if that is a wrong research, but this is according to the people of Petauke.

Mr Speaker, I was once a victim in Petauke at Kalindawalo Clinic in 1998. I was very sick that night and then I was taken to the clinic. However, there was only a clinical officer on duty who attended to me but just gave me pain killers. I was told that I would only be seen by the doctor the following day around 1000 hours.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Even you can attack the police and everything will be done. Do not worry.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Do not respond to hecklers.

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, let me be protected. I am sure our Standing Orders are very clear and they state that anyone who wishes to debate can do so at your approval. So, I seek your protection from the hon. Members, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you are well protected.

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, I was asked to see the doctor the following day in the morning. By1000 hours the next morning, my condition was critical. So, we should understand that this Motion is just trying to say that when the people we are representing, like in my constituency which is in the rural part, are sick and go to the clinic, they are not supposed to be told to go back the following day in order to be seen by a doctor.

Mr Speaker, about two months ago, at Kazala, one of the headmen died because of the time he had to wait to see a doctor. Right now, when you go to Petauke, you will note that the death rate has risen because of referrals. People who go to the clinic during the night are told that they can only be given pain killers while they wait for the doctor the following day. This is what the hon. Member of Parliament from Kamfinsa is trying to urge this House to do, so that immediately that patient down there in Kalindawalo or Chilimanyama or Ongobwe ward goes to the clinic, they should be attended to by the doctor.

Mr Speaker, this is a very good Motion, but it requires planning. The hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi East Constituency said that when you are cooking Nshima, you need to plan. This is a plan that we need to make. This is a good Motion which should be supported here by everyone. However, we should plan how this is going to be undertaken or maybe, we should give it time, so that we find ways and means of having more man power. It is not a bad Motion. Therefore, we do not have to shoot it down because the people we represent are seeing whatever is happening here.

Mr Speaker, it is a good Motion, but we need to plan. The Executive needs to sit and plan. It needs to plan and know where to get more man power. If that man power is not available at the moment, let the Government inform us and say, indeed, it is a good Motion but it needs to put things together before going ahead with implementing what it is being urged to do through this Motion and not just doing politics where it is not necessary because right now life is health. If there is no health, it means all of us will not be here.

Mr Speaker, let us take the hon. Minister of Health, as an example. If today, she gets critically sick and goes to the clinic and then she is told that she can only see the doctor the following day, what is she going to do? It means we are going to lose her.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: I am not saying that we are going to lose her, it is an example. So, as we are talking here, we should also remember the poor people who brought us here because these poor people are the ones dying in the rural areas. When we are sick here, we go to private hospitals where there are doctors from 0600 hours to 1800 hours. However, in the rural areas, you will find that for a community member in a place such as Petauke in Ongolwe to access a health facility, he/she needs to walk 50 km. Then when one walks 30 km, he/she is told that he/she can only see the doctor the following day. To access a hospital from that health post, which is Kalindawalo General Hospital, it is about 40 km. In addition, one would not have any mode of transport. So, what can one do? However, here we are saying this Motion is not good. What about those people who elected us and brought us here, without whom we are nothing. We should, at all times, remember our people as we debate. This is because no one here can tell me that when they fall sick or their children fall sick and they go to the hospital, they are told to see the doctor the following day.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Health(Mrs Masebo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind up this debate and hopefully, be able to make sense arising from my articulation. Firstly, I thank all the speakers who have spoken both on your right and left. I thank them for their comments and proposals.

Mr Speaker, let me get down to the Motion, and I think it is very important. This Motion, indeed, is not controversial, partisan and there is nothing political about it. The Motion is asking this administration to ensure that all health facilities in Zambia operate twenty-four hours.

Mr Speaker, my simple answer to that is that firstly, this Motion is misplaced, in that it is not correctly couched. The mover of the Motion may have had a good idea or wanted to assist, but the Motion that he drafted was not correctly drafted and for that reason, there is no way that the Government can support the Motion when it is defective in the way that it has been written.

Mr Speaker, firstly, the Motion is talking about all health facilities operating twenty-four hours a day. The answer to that is that health facilities are expected to operate twenty-four hours. The fact that some health facilities in the country are not operating twenty-four hours in the country is simply because there may not be enough staff to run for twenty-four hours. So, the Motion that he should have brought should have been to urge the Government to increase the number of people being employed so, that we can quickly get to a place where one day, almost all of our health centres operate twenty-four hours. We would have supported that. This one is defective and we cannot support it. We are an orderly Government. We do things correctly so we cannot say yes for the sake of pleasing those who are hearing us. We must assist our hon. Colleague to understand and appreciate the situation.

Mr Speaker, I know that over the years, the Ministry of Health has been kind of distorted in the manner its systems were developed to the extent that most of our communities today do not even understand what these structures are all about. You recall that I was asked to come on the Floor of this House to try and help hon. Members understand exactly how we have graded these facilities. As you may know, now we have what we call mini-hospitals and zonal catchments and all sorts of definitions. You will find that our people are not able to comprehend these definitions. I will try to make a few remarks on this and help our people to understand.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, you may wish to note that the Government currently provides health services at three levels of care, that is, primary health care, secondary health care, and tertiary health care. The levels of care are graded based on population, infrastructure and type of health services that are offered. At primary health care level, the services offered address the broader determinants of health to ensure the highest possible level of health and wellbeing along the continuum of health promotion, prevention as well as treatment.

Mr Speaker, our primary health care facilities include first level hospitals now, mini-hospitals, zonal health centres, urban health centres, rural health centres and health posts. Now, if you look at a health post, like my hon. Colleague, the Chairperson of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services Dr Kalila articulated well, you cannot expect the smallest health post which is more like a first aid box to operate for twenty-four hours. It will be so costly and not it is just not practical.

Mr Speaker, you heard how the hon. Minister of Education tried to guide and say that as Zambians, let us look more now at prevention. What one way can you prevent diseases? It is through education. We need to invest more in education so, that all of us can understand the basic issues of health, how we can protect ourselves, how we can keep clean, how we can avoid unnecessary diseases. We are privileged here and that is why you find that we do not normally get sick as much as our colleagues who are disadvantaged either through education or through poverty.

So, let us spend money on doing things that will help us. Even as I am hon. Minister of Health, I would not like the Government to be pouring money in the health sector more than in sectors that can help prevent diseases. So, I am interested in local government. We must have water, we must have good roads, we must have good sanitation and our children must go to good schools. I say thank you to the President for bringing free education because education is a game changer.

Mr Speaker, this Motion, therefore, is neither here nor there for now because that policy is already there. Everybody has been desirous to have hospitals work twenty-four hours a day seven days a week except, like he himself articulated well, we do not have enough members of staff or health workers. You know that from day one, this administration committed itself to improving the health sector. The President made a pledge during the elections that he would give us better health services. He was clear about that.

Sir, I think he has taken all the necessary steps. Firstly, the problem was money, and so, the money in the Budget was doubled. Secondly, there was the issue of lack of workers and so, we have started recruiting. Over 12,000 workers have so far been employed. That is a good starting point. The following year again, we have added more people. In fact, we were supposed to have more than what has been allocated, but again, because of this issue of considering other social determinants of health, we decided not to keep employing in the health sector. We also want to ensure that people in other sectors also get employment. The hon. Member has talked of security, so we need more policemen. We need more teachers. So, we have to spread the little resources that we have. As the Budget gets better, we will continue to employ so that we get to a place where we will have all our hospitals equipped with enough staff. When I talk about hospitals here, I am referring to our health centres, whether rural or urban. That is what we want. People are talking about distance and we take that into account. That is why again we are talking about the need for ambulances. You have seen that in the 2022 Budget we were talking about procuring 100 ambulances and in 2023, we are talking of procuring more ambulances. Again, this is an answer. We are talking about more health facilities to bring health services closer to the people. What are we doing? What people have left unattended to, whether it was in 2020, 2021, 2018, 2019, we have budgeted for them and said we will try to finish all those facilities within the Budget allocation. So, we are generally on the right track as Government.

Sir, there are many challenges in the health sector but these are historical. When we talk about historical, people must agree that there has been a big mess in the Ministry of Health and cleaning up that mess requires a lot of concerted effort. There has been a lot of mismanagement in that ministry with regards to health workers, projects and it comes to almost everything. One year down the line, many things are happening. I am happy with the manner the former hon. Minister debated. I think he understands the truth about the ministry and his debate is always very fair and balanced. He knows the truth about what the health sector is like.

Mr Speaker, we are doing our best as the New Dawn Government to ensure that we make good of the past mess. So, we are carrying on with the good deeds while cleaning up those that were not good deeds. When you clean up things, you rattle many people. People are used to eating, but now, we want to stop them because we want to employ more people for health facilities to operate twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. It is not easy, but we are on the right track and by God’s grace, we will get there.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Speaker, I am grateful, first of all, to everyone who has debated both from a very technical point of view and those who have debated from a simplistic point of view.

Mr Speaker, the motive behind this Motion was to deal with a challenge that is real. For me to sit, draft the Motion, and engage the Research Department was as a result of the realisation that the people we represent out there may not be in a position to differentiate a tertiary health facility from a primary health facility. For them, the issue is access to healthcare. I sat and listened to every angle that has been debated here and I can confidently confirm that from today onwards, the narrative will change. Even as we go back where we are coming from, each one of us will start looking at healthcare from a different perspective.

The role of Parliament, Mr Speaker, is to provide oversight. The oversight role that we have provided today, regardless of the outcome of this Motion, is that everyone will sit and reflect: how do we ensure that every member in our community has access to healthcare? We can choose to be technical here. Actually, when debating, there is a tendency of each one of us to pick an angle. So, we can all pick different angles but the fact will remain that the people out there want better healthcare.

Mr Speaker, this was not a Motion for the people of Kamfinsa or any specific ward in Zambia, but a Motion to attempt to speak to each one of us and urge us to start viewing health care from a different angle. What is that different angle? The different angle is that every Zambia deserves to have access to health care.

Mr Speaker, I believe that today, I have done justice as a mover of the Motion. I think that the seconder has also done justice. I think that each of us has done justice because the narrative is changing. I am very confident that with the passage of time, we will look back to today and say we did the right thing to have this Motion on the Floor of the House. So, I thank everyone who has debated. I also remind each one of us that we can afford good health care because we are privileged, but there are many Zambians who do not understand these technical issues that we have debated. Zambians want health care in all our communities.

Mr Speaker, without referring to any particular constituency, all the Zambians want to have an opportunity whereby, when you feel sick at 2200 hours, you must be able to have access to a health facility. Should you be told where you have come is not a secondary health facility, those are technical issues. The people and medical professionals have debated. I know the former hon. Minister is a doctor and the Chairperson for the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services is also a doctor. Those are technical views they have expressed and we appreciate that they are viewing them from their perspective. However, I would appreciate that people view them from the perspective of the hon. Member for Petauke Central. I think he simplified it from how the ordinary members in our communities view it.

Mr Speaker, the issue that brought us to Parliament, today, was to debate a health care issue. What should we do to ensure that every person has access to health care? I have great respect for all the views that have been advanced. I do not agree with all of them, but one thing is certain; today, the narrative has changed. I am very confident that as people view this debate, they have equally picked different perspectives to the issue. These different perspectives are that we need to simplify health care. We can complicate it, but in the process, we will deny people access to the health care. Let us simplify health care and make it possible for each one of us to access health care.

Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa Constituency and many hon. Members of Parliament who agree with this Motion, I seek the support of all the hon. Members.

I thank you, Sir.

Question that this House urges the Government to increase operating hours for all public health facilities countrywide put and negative.

_______

BILL

SECOND READING

THE ZAMBIA QUALIFICATIONS AUTHORITY BILL, 2022

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Mr Speaker, with leave of the House, I beg to move that second reading of the Bill be deferred to a later day.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreedto. Leave granted.

The debate on the Bill, by leave, accordingly deferred.

_______

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER

DEBATE ON THE MOTION OF SUPPLY

Hon Members, in accordance with Standing Order 157(6) of the National Assembly of Zambia, Standing Orders, 2021, I wish to inform the House that debate on the Motion of Supply which was moved by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on 30th September, 2022, will be concluded on Friday, 28th October, 2022.  As per practice, for the last three sitting days of the debate on the Motion, priority will be given to the Front Bench to respond to various issues raised by the Back Bench during the debate.

In this regard, therefore, starting from Wednesday, 26th to Friday, 28th October, 2022, priority in debating the Motion of Supply will be given to the Front Bench.

In this vein, I implore all hon. Members of the Back Bench intending to debate the Motion to do so between now and Tuesday, 25th October, 2022.

I thank you.

_______

MOTION

Budget 2023

(Debate resumed)

Mr Kolala (Lufubu): Mr Speaker, when business was suspended on Friday, I was about to say that because of this Budget, Lufubu Constituency will have eight schools built. The schools were declared as Government schools and there was no infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, in the same vein, Lufubu Constituency will have pupils in schools sitting on desks.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, it is sad that the most noise is coming from where the Leader of the Opposition is seated. We expect that bench to be very exemplary. Hon. Member for Lufubu, you may proceed.

Mr Kolala: Mr Speaker, I was saying for the first time, our pupils in Lufubu Constituency will be sitting on desks which they have never known. In some schools somewhere, at least desks were there, but they got damaged. However, in Lufubu, the schools have never had desks, but this Budget is going to provide those desks for our people.

Mr Speaker, it has been a serious struggle for people to move from Lufubu to Kabwe because there is no road. This time around, in this Budget, we are seeing a road reaching Lufubu Constituency. This is what I meant when I said Lufubu Constituency has been neglected by successive Governments, including the Patriotic Front (PF) which left office a year ago. The people of Lufubu know and understand this. It is also confusing when we hear people bringing figures here saying that because of tax exemptions we are losing K2 billion.

Mr Speaker, were these taxes there? If they were there, where was the money going? If the taxes were there and the money was there, why was the Government borrowing excessively? If these taxes were so beneficial that we do not need to do away with them this time, I think we would not have seen the previous Government borrowing the way it did. We would have seen this money working somewhere. Maybe, I would have had a school there. Out of the eight schools that have got no infrastructure, maybe, one would have been built. Now, we are seeing this Budget bringing Lufubu Constituency on board. We have been living under Budgets that have got –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving the people of Kantanshi an opportunity to comment and maybe, make some suggestions to the Government on the 2023 Budget.

Mr Speaker, I must say that the Budget was well presented but of course, there are some observations that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning might need to put into consideration.

Mr Speaker, I join the many young men and women out there, the close to 7 million Zambians who are looking for jobs. I know that the target of our growth rate of 4 per cent will not be adequate to create those jobs. However, there are a few things, that were brought out in the Budget, which can create growth especially in the private sector.

Mr Speaker, I want to remind some of the people who are probably listening that every Budget has got give-aways and not everybody is a winner in any Budget that is prepared. There has been a lot of talk around the mining sector that so much has been given away. However, if you look at unlocking a sector which was totally closed out for the last ten years, you will see that, indeed, you do need to provide certain incentives. Those incentives have not been just for the mining sector. I do not want to quote the actual figures, but if you look at the last two years, you will see that other sectors like tourism, have also been given various incentives. That is the same even for the workers. The incentive is through the Pay-As-You-Earn (PAYE).

Mr Speaker, just this year, the Government will lose close to a K1 billion in trying to support the hard working families. At the same time, yes, when you add the last two years, last year, you realise that close to K2.8 billion was given away under the mining sector. Again, maybe, another K2 billion was given away, but we immediately saw First Quantum Mine (FQM) pledging an investment of US$1.3 billion under a different mineral. So, I think that the Government needs to continue paying close attention to the mining sector. For now, it still remains the backbone of our economy and one of the major creators of employment. I think that is very important.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba: Mr Speaker, I also just want to highlight some of the concerns that I have, further, on the mining sector. My constituency is purely a mining sector. I know that I have reported to the Government on the job losses that have taken place in Mopani and the concerns that are coming from other stakeholders like the council who depend on Mopani. I am hoping that I will get some positive feedback before our town, Mufulira, slowly starts to move to how Luanshya became; a dead town around 2008. It was these small indicators that led to the town probably being in the situation it is in now. However, I am very confident that the Government is paying a close eye. In any case, I will continue knocking on all the doors of hon. Ministers because my responsibility here in Parliament is to represent the people whether I am called names or accused of defection.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba: Mr Speaker, the key is if Mukambo Road is constructed, it is good for our people and our business. I am a border constituency, and if I have water and sanitation – I have not had water for three weeks in my constituency and the people are saying: Are we now living like villagers?” On one hand, the mining sector is disappointing us, but if do not knock on the door of the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, how is he going to know or how is he going to exercise his authority? So, for my office as a Member of Parliament, I will continue speaking to the Government.

Mr Speaker, the other issue that I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister is we heard from the debate of my hon. Colleague, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa and also learnt that we need more members of staff. The Government has proposed to create 4,000 extra jobs for teachers and another 3,000 jobs for the police and nurses and so on and so forth, and that is fine.

Mr Speaker, the Government already created an imprint last year when it created close to 42,000 jobs. We want the hon. Minister to change the narrative. He should, in his budget, create apprenticeships. These apprenticeships in various sectors; health, education and many more, will capture more and more of the young people who are on the streets. This was done by the Patriotic Front (PF) I think in 2020 to 2021 and it worked well for hospitals, clinics and schools. Fortunately, most of them, not all of them who worked through apprenticeships got these permanent jobs. So, I think the Government has an opportunity to even add thousands of numbers through apprenticeships and giving them a decent living wage. As the economy continues to expand on this current trajectory, you will now create permanent and permanent jobs for people.

Mr Speaker, the other issue that the Government needs to look into is the Social Cash Transfer or the Social Safety Net which it has been trying to provide. You have increased the number of beneficiaries to 1.3 million. I do not know any Member of Parliament who knows with accuracy how many beneficiaries he has in his/her constituency simply because the borders are not clear, the so-called zones are not clear. You will do well to ensure an audit for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and further ensure it is able to provide the fund only in designated wards constituencies. There is no point in somebody living in Mufulira Central getting money from Kantanshi Constituency. How do you manage that? It will become difficult and we will not see that benefit going to the people and the hon. Member of Parliament will not have accurate information to share on the Floor of this House.

Mr Speaker, I will end with agriculture. The Government is committed to working on the Farmer Input Supply Programme (FISP). Yes, indeed, you have on one hand tax payer’s money almost close to half a billion dollars, and then you have the maize on the other hand and you increase the number of beneficiaries, meaning production goes up. The Government only gets a certain amount and leaves everything on the streets. The following year in the Budget, the same has to happen. Who are we trying to serve?

Mr Speaker, further, under the Ministry of Agriculture, there is a need to domestic at family level, food production; making sure that people produce their own food. It will not help for them to be waiting for handouts through the Social Cash Transfer and so on and so forth. I think that should be done as the whole FISP is being evaluated and as we try to make the FRA more relevant, because right now it is supported fully by the tax payers, and that is also unsustainable. So, these are some of the few examples and a few considerations that the Government can make as it continues to run a prudent Budget. I thank you and I support the Budget.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sabao (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chikankata an opportunity to add their voice to the debate on this very important Motion presented to this House by our able Minister of Finance and National Planning Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane.

Mr Speaker, in this country, fifty-eight years after independence, we still have people living under US$1 per day. They are under absolute poverty, and that is unacceptable. However, this Budget is responding to the needs of the Zambians.

Mr Speaker, coming from Chikankata, an agricultural area, I will focus my debate on agriculture and narrow it down to the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). We have had this programme for a long time, but it has not helped our people. However, looking at this Budget, under the New Dawn Government, I see that it has come up with the Comprehensive Agriculture Support Programme (CASP), which has in it, access to finance and extension services. What does that mean? It means our farmers will have more resources. In the past, once given the pack, farmers were not monitored by the previous regime on how they used the fertiliser.We had farmers who used to sale inputs, but when you give finances to farmers, it means as the Government, you come up with a tool to monitor how the resources are being used.

Mr Speaker, providing extension services to our people will help them have the information and knowledge on what type of crop to plant. Extension officers will do the soil testing. They will then advise our farmers on what type of crops to plant where and when, meaning production will go up. This will help to create employment in our country. There will be food security because we will have more food at household level. This will create mass production in our areas.

Mr Speaker, coming from that background, as Member of Parliament for Chikankata, I proudly support this Budget. If you read this Budget correctly, you will see that it is telling Zambians that the Government wants to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor. For a long time in this country, we have had a big number of people who are poor. As I said earlier on, the majority of our people live in absolute poverty. However, with this Budget, we are going to graduate and three quarters of our people will be in relative poverty where they will be able to throw some parties.

Mr Speaker, I will now concentrate on decentralization, which is deconcentration, delegation and devolution of power to local authorities. In the past, we had people at the centre having all the powers. This is why we used to see party after party. It is because there was too much power and money at the centre. However, with this pronouncement, what we are going to see is that the people at the centre will concentrate on monitoring where the power has gone and the resources of the country have been taken. So, we will reduce the issue of party after party. Instead, people will be working.

Mr Speaker, with decentralisation, we have a package of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which has taken money to the councils, and given power to our people, through Ward Development Committees (WDCs) to make decisions for their districts. When you talk of decentralisation, you are giving power to the people to make their own decisions, unlike what we saw in the past, where the Central Government was the one to identify a project in a district.  However, when you talk of decentralisation, the owners of the district will identify their needs because they are the ones suffering. They will advise the local authority on what project should be implemented in their district. That is how you develop a country.

Mr Speaker, as a woman activist, I am a proud hon. Member of Parliament for Chikankanta because under the CDF, there is women empowerment. For a long time, we have been fighting inequality as women, but we just looked at the social aspect of life without looking at the economic angle. How do you empower someone who has nothing? When someone is economically empowered, he/she has a voice and the muscle to make decisions on behalf of others. No one should cheat anyone in this House that without economic power, I can stand here. For me to have access to this office, I was economically empowered by some people who meant well for the Zambian women. They want the Zambian women to be empowered. Therefore, the New Dawn Government means well and it has a vision to empower women by giving them resources through women empowerment funds and grants.

Mr Speaker, I am one of the Members of Parliament who have given out grants. I could even see change on the faces of women because they are happy. Where there is poverty, there is sadness. So, as the New Dawn Government, we are doing the right things for Zambians. When you empower a woman, you empower the whole nation. When you empower a young person, you empower the whole family, and this is the vision of the New Dawn Government.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of education, we are going to help our children who are coming from poor families and cannot afford to pay fees for boarding secondary schools, but under CDF, they will be paid for. For any country to develop, the first step you are supposed to take is investing in education because when you educate an individual, he/she will have the ideas and knowledge to see opportunities. When we invest in education, we are investing in the inter-generation of a country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sabao: Whatever you do today will come back tomorrow. People will say they had leaders who knew that there would be a next generation. However, I know that in the past, we had people who were just celebrating without thinking of tomorrow. Under the New Dawn Government, whenever we are planning, we know that there is tomorrow. Even if I am gone, if I empower my children to go to school, they will remain with a happy life. I am a very good example. I have no parents, but because they invested in me, I am here representing the good people of Chikankata. That is the importance of education.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sabao: Mr Speaker, we are also giving sponsorship for skills development under CDF. We have our children who may have failed Grade 9, but they have been given an opportunity to go back to school to train and obtain crafts certificates. In this country, people do not know that a craft certificate is very important. You find that we do not have a plumber, but there is work for a plumber and those are well-paying jobs. That is because we have always thought that to be rich, one needs to have a white-collar job. The richest people in this world are entrepreneurs.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr P. Phiri (Mkaika): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion on the Floor.

Sir, reading the Budget that was represented on the Floor of this House, I saw that there is no co-ordination whatsoever, especially between the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP) and the Eight National Development Plan (8NDP).

Hon. Government Members: Question

Mr P. Phiri: These are not talking to each other.

Ms Sefulo: Question!

Mr P. Phiri: Mr Speaker, fifty-eight years after independence, I feel that as a country, we needed to have direction of where to go. We were lucky, or I should say we are lucky, that in this country, we had two Ministers of Finance and National Planning, the late Mr Chikwanda, may his soul rest in peace, and also Hon. Dr Musokotwane, who has been serving as Minister of Finance and National Planning for a long time. As such, I feel that as a country, we were supposed to have direction, especially because Dr Kaunda, may his soul rest in peace, gave us a direction not to rely only on minerals. We cannot only rely on copper. We are supposed to diversify and that is why Dr Kenneth Kaunda introduced the idea of going back to our villages or farms so that we can diversify this economy.

Sir, let me give you an example of why I said that these plans are not speaking to each other. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government allocated money to the Western Province where a cashew nut growing project was introduced. I felt that this time around, money was supposed to be allocated to the same project so that we see its benefits.

Mr Speaker, if we do not coordinate these plans, then we are not going anywhere.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1911 hours until 1430hours on Thursday 20th October, 2022.

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