DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 19th July, 2012 

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________ 

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

ROLL-OUT OF MOBILE COMMUNICATION TOWERS

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Sir, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to issue a ministerial statement on the roll-out of communication towers and services to rural and other unserved areas. I wish to take this opportunity to inform this august House and the nation the steps that the Government has taken to ensure communication towers and services are rolled out to rural and other un-served areas within the shortest possible time.

Sir, the Government, under the able leadership of His Excellency, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, is committed to uplifting the social and economic well-being of our people. In this regard, the Government has embraced information and communication technology (ICT) as an enabler of development and is determined to see to it that ICT infrastructure and services are available to its citizens in all parts of the country. This is based on the realisation that there would be no development without improved communication facilities and tools.

Sir, allow me to provide some statistics on the number of towers in the country and associated mobile connectivity. As at March, 2012, the country had 2,070 mobile communication towers, providing the country with a geographic coverage of 78.4 per cent. The number of mobile users, by the end of March, 2012, stood at 8,455,462, reflecting a penetration of 63.1 per cent per 100 inhabitants. That means that out of every 100 people, there were about sixty-three people using mobile telephone facilities.

Mr Speaker, whereas there has been a significant growth in the roll-out and uptake of mobile communication services, this growth has mainly been in urban areas. In order to ensure that ICT infrastructure and services are available to all parts of the country, the Government has taken steps to ensure a speedy roll-out of communication towers and services to rural and other unserved areas.

Sir, in the working tours that His Honour the Vice-President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr Guy Scott, took to over twenty villages in Muchinga, Northern, Eastern and Southern provinces, it was discovered that most chiefs’ palaces had no mobile telephone coverage. Arising from the foregoing, the Government has made it a priority to extend communication towers and services to cover all chiefdoms under a new programme.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, in order to facilitate the speedy roll-out of communication towers and services to all chiefdoms and other unserved peri-urban and rural areas, the Government constituted a technical committee comprising the following:

(a)    representatives of all the three mobile operators, namely, MTN Zambia Limited, Airtel Zambia Limited and Zambia Telecommunications (ZAMTEL); 

(b)    the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs; 

(c)    the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development;

(d)    the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication; 

(e)    the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU);

(f)    the Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA);

(g)    the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO);

(h)    the Rural Roads Unit (RRU); 

(i)    the Zambia Environmental Management Authority (ZEMA); and 

(j)    other relevant stakeholders.

Mr Speaker, arising from the work of the committee, it has been established that, out of 287 chiefdoms, about 101 had mobile telephone coverage, 131 did not and information on the remaining fifty-five was still being gathered. I wish to take this opportunity to request the distinguished hon. Members of this august House to confirm, from the list that I have on the coverage status, whether the information given on the chiefdoms in their constituencies is correct, so that we may execute the programme properly.

Mr Speaker, survey teams will soon travel to the chiefdoms that do not have coverage to select suitable sites for erecting the towers and associated communication equipment. A detailed survey schedule is being finalised and our desire is to achieve this in the next two months. I would, therefore, request the distinguished hon. Members of this august House and the affected royal highnesses to support this noble programme by facilitating access and providing suitable land as may be identified by the survey teams. 

Mr Speaker, in order to ensure good coverage of the chiefdoms, the suitable locations may not necessarily be the palaces. Therefore, the royal highnesses should bear with us by not insisting on the towers being sited at the palaces. I mention this because, previously, we received a number of complaints in some locations where towers and communication services had been rolled out.

Sir, in order to facilitate a speedy roll-out, promote the availability and widespread use of electronic communication services throughout Zambia and bridge the digital divide between urban, peri-urban and rural areas, I have signed and issued Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 38 of 2012, the Information and Communication Technologies (Universal Access) Regulation, 2012, which provides the framework for designating unserved areas and the funding mechanism under the Universal Access Fund.

Mr Speaker, we are positive that, with the above-stated policy intervention, we will realise a well-co-ordinated, Government-controlled and expedient roll-out of communication towers and services to unserved rural and peri-urban areas. We will be able to provide the details on when, exactly, each site will be established once the survey schedule has been finalised and the surveys completed. It is from the survey that operators can determine the type and height of the towers to be ordered and erected. This plan will take about six (6) months to complete. 

Sir, ZICTA will acquire land to ensure collocation and sharing of infrastructure as well as ensure that services are provided to the citizenry at lower costs.

Mr Speaker, there is an on-going roll-out of communication towers to the previously identified 354 locations, which we are doing in the collaboration with Airtel. However, progress has been slow due to logistical problems associated with the provision of services to rural areas, hence, the intervention we have taken to set up a technical committee comprising of all mobile operators and other stakeholders and the issuance of SI No. 38 of 2012 on Universal Access.

Sir, the involvement of all operators and stakeholders is intended to rationalise resources, through infrastructure-sharing, and speed up implementation. The challenges experienced include: 

(a)    lack of access roads;

(b)    lack of commercial power;

(c)     vandalism of erected sites;

(d)    road accidents resulting in the death of six members of the execution teams;

(e)    poor demand, resulting in poor or no returns on investment for operators; and 

(f)    operational challenges associated with running the said sites. 

Mr Speaker, as at July 17, 2012, only 174 towers had been rolled out while about 180 towers are yet to be completed with a subsidy provided to improve implementation. The roll-out schedule for the remaining sites is being reconciled and harmonised with the decision by the Government to prioritise the roll-out of communication towers to cover all chiefdoms. We will provide a consolidated execution schedule in due course.

Mr Speaker, I would like to conclude by thanking the operators and all the other stakeholders for the commitment they are showing to working with the Government to urgently extend communication towers and services to all chiefdoms and other unserved peri-urban and rural areas.

Sir, allow me to take advantage of this ministerial statement to give some feedback on the registration of sim cards.

Mr Speaker, the Government issued SI No. 65 of 2011, the Information and Communication Technologies, Registration of Electronic Operators Regulation, 2011. This SI makes it mandatory for the sellers of sim cards and network operators to capture identity details of persons to whom sim-cards are sold and numbers assigned. Electronic communications network service providers shall maintain an electronic register of individual subscriber information, which includes names, physical addresses of subscribers and serial numbers of sim cards.

Mr Speaker, I have been informed by ZICTA that Airtel has commenced registration while MTN has been carrying out pilot activities and intends to commence full registration by Monday, July 23, 2012, as they roll-out throughout the country while, tomorrow, July 20, 2012, they will be doing so only for their staff. ZAMTEL has indicated that it has been following procedures and will be able to meet the deadline of January, 2013. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalaba (Bahati): Mr Speaker, we have heard from the ministerial statement that the surveyors will soon be going to carry out surveys to establish where, exactly, towers will be erected. Does this also apply to Matanda or does the hon. Minister still insist that that particular site will be erected by December, this year?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, what we have done is to implement a programme that will be rolled-out for chiefdoms only. Matanda falls under this category as it is a chiefdom. We are sending surveyors, in the next two months, who will be able to report, after which we will start implementing. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for a well-thought out plan. However, what can he say on the quality of service being provided in rural areas like Kaputa as the facilities are being rolled out?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the problem we had was that the implementation was not well co-ordinated. There are areas where there is no power and others where we have challenges in terms of the terrain. These factors affect the quality of the services provided and that is why we have formed a team that consists of all the relevant stakeholders. We have people from the DMMU, ZESCO and the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, and we are looking at those aspects so that, even as they are rolling out the Rural Electrification Programme, they also consider going where we are going so that we can offer a quality service to our people. Quality is cardinal and we are not going to compromise on that. In the interim, we will try to set a standard that we will be following.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, there are problems on who should collect the levy where towers are constructed. Is it the local authority or the owner of the land on which the tower is built? Could the hon. Minister clarify who should collect the levy.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, what has been happening is that, if the tower has been erected on private land, the owners of the land collect the levy. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, in the past, mobile service providers have been reluctant to provide their services to the rural areas because it was not economically viable. In the event that service providers consider servicing chiefdoms not economically viable, will the Government still go ahead and put up those towers?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, since I have the right to answer only one question, I would like to explain that the whole purpose of coming up with the SI was to be able to provide funding because most of the mobile telephone service providers felt that there were some areas that were uneconomical for them to operate in. We thought that, if Government puts up towers in such areas, it would be possible for the service providers to work there.

I thank you, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, 78.4 per cent coverage is quite good for our country. This is a good example of continuity in a programme that was put in place in the past.

Hon. MMD Members: Here, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, my question is on the regional imbalance in the distribution of towers. Two years ago, the distribution was as follows: the Western Province, 22 per cent, the North-Western Province, 29 per cent, Central Province, 36 per cent, Luapula Province, 41 per cent and the Eastern Province, 57 per cent.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Let him finish his question.

Professor Lungwangwa: Is the hon. Minister paying attention to the regional imbalance in the distribution of towers in the predominantly rural provinces?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, we are doing everything possible to ensure that we execute the job equitably.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Speaker, the exercise of these mobile telephone operators to capture subscriber data is a mammoth task, which will require large amounts of money. Is the period given to the companies to capture data, especially for their subscribers in high density areas, enough for them to complete the work in January?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, sim card registration has many challenges, some of which are to do with costs and sensitisation because some people may think that they are being registered by a new political party as members. I think that there is a lot to be done. That is why we have put up a number of meetings so that we may reach a consensus on what the target should be. In fact, this project was supposed to have been implemented last year. We are aware that they need time to do things well. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that a schedule will be provided to the hon. Members of Parliament for them to be checking how the work is going to be done. When will this be done so that I can check if Chief Mulala’s or Chief Chibale’s areas are on the list of the areas to be covered under the project?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I will lay the schedule on the Table when I finish responding to the follow-up questions on my ministerial statement.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, under the Universal Access Programme, ZICTA and the service providers agreed that, when they put a tower at a Government institution, such as a clinic or a school, they would not be charged any fees, but the service provider should build something, such as a classroom or ablution block. Unfortunately, the service providers are not doing that. What will the Government do about this state of affairs?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, those are the issues that we want to attend to. If you enter into a contract, it should be executed to the letter. The Government will follow up such agreements and ensure that they are complied with.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, when the hon. Minister talks about chiefdoms, is he including those areas under sub-chiefs?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, if we had to include the sub-chiefs, definitely, the number of areas to be covered would be bigger. At this point, we are considering just the chiefdoms.

I thank you, Sir.

_________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

BOREHOLES AND DAMS

529. Mrs Mazoka (Pemba) asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development:

(a)    when boreholes would be sunk in rural constituencies, such as Pemba Parliamentary Constituency, which are in dire need of safe drinking water;

(b)    when the Choombwa Dam would be repaired; and

(c)    when Munyona and Chinywaboobwe Dams would be constructed.

The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr C. Zulu): Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing’s National Rural Water Supply and Sanitation Programme, with support from co-operating partners, will sink twenty-three boreholes in Pemba Constituency in 2012. The construction of boreholes will be facilitated by Choma Municipal Council. Accordingly, Choma Municipal Council will decide on where and when the allocated boreholes will be constructed in the constituency.

Sir, Choombwa Dam has been included in this year’s rehabilitation plan and will, therefore, be repaired in 2012. 

Mr Speaker, the rehabilitation of the Munyona and Chinywaboobwe dams is not in our plans, this year. However, we intend to budget for feasibility studies in 2013 and, depending on the results of the study, my ministry will plan and budget for the rehabilitation works on the dams in 2014.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

PROMOTIONS, TRANSPORT AND HANDCUFFS IN THE IMMIGRATIONS DEPARTMENT

530. Mr Sing'ombe (Dundumwezi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)    how many Immigration Assistants had not been promoted from the intake recruited in 1993;

(b)    whether the Government had provided transport to the following immigration stations:

(i)    Mazabuka;

(ii)    Choma;

(iii)    Kalomo;

(iv)    Kazungula Border; and

(v)    Victoria Falls Border; and

(c)    when the Government last procured handcuffs for the Immigration Department.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, sixteen out of fifty-nine immigration assistants from the 1993 intake have not been promoted. Some of the reasons for that are disciplinary and lack of vacancies under the old structure to which the immigration assistants could be promoted. 

Sir, the approved new structure has created more positions above the entry position of Immigration Assistant in order to enhance more upward mobility. 

Mr Speaker, just last week, the Government sent a Toyota Hilux to Victoria Falls Border Post and another to Kazungula Border Post. These two border posts are very busy and generate a lot of revenue. Mazabuka, Choma and Kalomo will be considered in the 2013 Budget. 

Mr Speaker, as for handcuffs, the Government last procured one thousand pairs of handcuffs for the Immigration Department in 2009, and these are more than adequate as the current work force is 575.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, may I know how the Immigration Department is contributing towards the World Tourism Conference, which will take place next year, bearing in mind that the vehicles that were sent to Victoria Falls and Kazungula are old.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, the Immigration Department was allocated sixteen new vehicles recently. It will deploy better vehicles to the affected areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Speaker, does the hon. Minister of Home Affairs have any plans to visit Kaseshazi and Lumi borders in Mbala District, where our counterparts have built modern border facilities while we do not have facilities of that sort on our side?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, in fact, as soon as we rise, on Friday, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs will be touring the Northern, Muchinga and Eastern provinces while I will go to the Southern and Central provinces.

I thank you, Sir.

                          CONSTRUCTION OF COMMUNICATION TOWERS

531. Mr Chitotela (Pambashe) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication when communication towers would be constructed at the following areas in Pambashe Parliamentary Constituency:

(i)    Kabanda;

(ii)    Chimpempe Mission; and

(iii)    Chief Chama’s Palace.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Colonel Kaunda): Mr Speaker, communication towers and associated telecommunication services have already been installed in Kabanda. Airtel installed a tower at Kabanda School and service was commissioned on 22nd May, 2012.

Mr Speaker, the tower installed at Kabanda School provides coverage to Chimpempe Mission. There are plans to construct a tower in Chief Chama’s area in 2012, as the hon. Minister said in his statement.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that I was in Kabanda during the Four-Days Holiday, which was from 1st to 4th July, 2012, and that there is no communication tower constructed at Kabanda Primary School? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, that is why, in my ministerial statement, I said that we would be able to send our survey team to go around. They will, then, confirm, exactly, what is happening. Otherwise, we are making a follow-up through the survey team.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

   CONSTRUCTION OF METRO BETWEEN KITWE AND LIVINGSTONE

532.    Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a)    whether the Government had any plans to construct a metro between Kitwe and Livingstone; and 

(b)    whether the Government had any plans to construct a high speed intra-city railway system.

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Speaker, at the moment, the Government has no immediate plans to develop a metro between Kitwe and Livingstone. The focus of the Government is on developing and identifying green field railway lines, which will connect to high economic activity areas like Lumwana in Solwezi, and the Copperbelt. The decision to construct a metro between Livingstone and Kitwe would further be informed by the Zambia National Transport Master Plan, which the Government is currently working on.

Mr Speaker, in the same vein, the Government has no immediate plans to construct a high speed intra-city railway system. What the Government is doing is revitalising the Njanji Commuter Railway Line, which is a mass urban transit system that has not been operational for, at least, nineteen years. The Government is, therefore, working on modalities to have the line rehabilitated and, possibly, extended to cover other areas of Lusaka beyond the current stations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the answer is welcome. However, at the pace we are going, traffic will catch up with us. Can the Government not put this as a long-term project?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, yes, we will put it as a long-term project. That is his desire.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

                                       ANTI-RABIES DRUGS

533. Mr Njeulu (Sinjembela) asked the Minister of Health whether the Government was considering providing anti-rabies drugs for free to victims of rabid dogs.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, it is the policy of this Government to provide free primary health care services, including anti-rabies vaccines. The drugs are part of the essential medicines and, hence, procured and administered to members of the public, like any other essential medicine, for free. In order to ensure accountability and accessibility of this essential drug, a logistics system of acquisition has been put in place. The drug is ordered by the provincial medical office from Medical Stores Limited. The provincial office, in turn, distributes the drug to the district hospitals based on reported statistics of dog bites per district. In this way, the drug is, generally, available at all district hospitals. However, due to their delicate nature, anti-rabies drugs are not supplied to health centres and health posts as these do not have the capacity to store and administer them. All cases of dog bites are referred to the district hospitals, where treatment is done for free.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Njeulu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the anti-rabies drugs are being sold at Senanga District Hospital, especially since Shang’ombo has nothing? They, actually, cost about K470,000 and many people have died as a result of failure to buy these drugs.

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I am not aware of this particular misconduct. I am, however, aware that there is this area of pharmaceuticals misconduct in various institutions of the ministry. We are taking action to control that as much as possible. It is a very serious type of misconduct because it affects the lives of people. We must work together, as people who are on the spot in the regions, to control this practice. There is no reason, whatsoever, for those drugs to be sold. Anyone found selling should be reported as an offender.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, in whose hands does the responsibility of building capacity for the rural health centres to begin storing the anti-rabies drugs lie? The hon. Deputy Minister indicated that these rural health centres have no capacity. Whose responsibility is it to build that capacity?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, without hesitation, I fully accept responsibility of the Ministry of Health to do so. We have linked the development of capacity to the functions of the institution. It is important that, when an institution is accorded the responsibility for a particular function, it gets the support that it needs to be able to do so. However, in our present state, those institutions described as health posts are not suitable to carry out this exercise because it could be rather dangerous in wrong hands.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, considering the extreme danger posed by one being bitten by a rabid dog, and the problems that are in Senanga, when are you going to effect measures to curb this problem and ensure that drugs are available to the people there and in Shang’ombo?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kalomo Central for his very good analysis of the situation. We also see it as a dangerous practice. We believe that there are interim measures and a long-term one. The interim measures are as follows:

(i)    the provision, across the country, of capacity to supply and treat these persons at the district level;

(ii)    we are also fully aware that treatment by anti-rabies vaccine does not have to be given immediately. There is a space of time which we can rely on to allow us to carry out this exercise; and 

(iii)    our mobile service is available. Where there is a shortage or access is required, our mobile service aims to do that. 

So, Mr Speaker, we have measures that I regard as interim, which the hon. Member has seen in Kalomo, I am sure, and which we should be able to see in Senanga.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the provincial office will only supply the medicines depending on the request made by the district offices. Is he implying that the districts will have to wait for incidents of dog bites before the medicine is supplied?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for this insight and for bringing the issue of management into the Chamber for appreciation. Management, after all, is about examining a given institution and doing the right thing at a given time. If our officers have been delaying in purchasing drugs because they are waiting for something to happen, that is a management deficiency. Unfortunately, this is the kind of management deficiency we identified soon after coming into power. Together, let us develop the capacity of managerial control of the situation at the district, health centre and health post levels.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, through you, if I heard the hon. Minister right, he mentioned mobile services. I want to find out how effective the mobile hospitals are.

Laughter

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for bringing, again, a question that has been brought to this House over and over. I am not sure that it is for technical reasons. There may be other agendas.

Laughter

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I shall, however, restrict myself to the narrow area of the current question. We can only see the value of the so-called mobile hospitals in the context of the mobile service. I have spoken at length that a mobile service is complementary to the fixed service. A mobile service begins with a vehicle or it could be an ambulance, bicycle, motorcycle, flying doctor service and, ultimately, if necessary, the so-called mobile hospital. If it is seen in that context, we can say that this is an effective way to proceed and we are satisfied that this is the case. However, if you wish to look at it as an independent service or substitute for the fixed service, then, I regret to say that we shall go our separate ways.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, following the question by the hon. Member for Chembe, the situation in Shang’ombo is serious. Why does the hon. Minister not consider sending a mobile hospital there?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for moving from the area of culture to more practical areas.

Laughter

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, it is in that context that I say to the hon. Member that the whole point of a mobile service is its ability to respond by moving. If a mobile service is converted into a fixed service, we are no longer talking about a mobile service.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, when it comes to rabies, the Ministry of Health is on the receiving end while the source is the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock. Therefore, is the Ministry of Health collaborating with the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock so that it can also start giving free vaccines to dogs?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the area of agriculture has always interested me as well. It just so happens that I have a different responsibility. However, I do appreciate that there has to be an equally aggressive policy of vaccination and treatment in the agricultural portfolio in order to prevent the transmission of diseases by livestock. For this reason, I assure the hon. Member that we have been, we are and we will continue to collaborate, very closely, with our colleagues in the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock.

I thank you, Sir.

MEMBERSHIP AND DECENTRALISATION OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE FUND

534. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    how many members the Public Service Pension Fund (PSFP) had as of 31st March, 2012; and    

(b)    why retirees still travelled to the headquarters of the PSFP for their benefits when the institution was decentralised to provinces.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Sampa): Mr Speaker, the number of members of the PSPF, as at 31st March, 2012, was 148,200. Out of this, 95,200 are active members who contribute to the fund while 53,000 are pensioners.

Sir, I wish to inform the House that, although the PSPF has decentralised its payment system through banks and post offices throughout the country, it has been observed that some retirees still opt to visit the PSPF offices in Lusaka. This is because most of them are new and not aware that this fund has been taken to the provinces. However, I wish to inform the House that there has been steady progress on the number of retirees who are using the decentralised offices in the provinces.

Mr Speaker, the Government intends to sensitise the public about this payment being in the provinces.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, does the ministry have any plans to decentralise the PSPF to the district level?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, in the short-term, maybe not, but in the medium term, we will look into the issue of taking all Government payments and services up to district level.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, why does the Government take so long to pay the retirees when it has statistics of the people retiring year by year?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, this question was asked yesterday and it was answered. I wish the hon. Member was in the House then. However, we mentioned that the system takes a bit of time. In days past, we used to pay by cheques, which would take time to be received and cleared by the retirees. Now, we deposit the money into their accounts. 

Sir, at the time when the Government delays in disbursing funds, it only means that nothing much has come in the pouch from the taxes and other sources. However, we will look into that and ensure that everybody in Kasenengwa and elsewhere is paid on time.

I thank you, Sir.

COPPER PRODUCTION AND REVENUE

535. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development:

(a)    what the total revenue, in Zambian Kwacha, realised from the sale of copper by the following mining companies from January to December, 2011, was:

(i)    Konkola Copper Mines;

(ii)    Kansanshi Mining Plc;

(iii)    Chibuluma Mines Plc;

(iv)    Mopani Copper Mines; and 

(v)    Lumwana Mining Company; and

(b)    how many tonnes of copper had been produced by each of the mining companies during the period at (a) above.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

I am not able to follow the hon. Minister because of the conversations on my right.

The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Musukwa): Mr Speaker, K28, 340,000,000 was realised from the sale of copper by Konkola Copper Mines, Kansanshi Mines, Chibuluma Mines, Mopani Mines and Lumwana Mines in 2011.

Sir, the breakdown of the revenue is as follows:

    Copper Mine    Amount Realised
                (K)    

    Konkola Copper Mine    8,802,000,000

    Kansanshi Mines Plc    9,438,000,000

    Chibuluma Mines    648,000,000,

    Mopani Copper Mines    5,014,000,000

    Lumwana Copper Mines    4,438,000,000

Mr Speaker, copper production for each of the mining houses above was as follows:

Copper Mine    Production (Tonnes)
                            
Konkola Copper Mine    200,694

Kansanshi Mines Plc    230,295

Chibuluma Mines    17,533

Mopani Copper Mines    119,552

Lumwana Copper Mines    108,277

Total    676,351

 Sir, in essence, Kansanshi Mine topped the chart with well over 230,295 tonnes and posting income in excess of K9 billion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I am delighted by the elaborate answer by the hon. Minister. That is the way things are supposed to be. That being the case, does the able Government have other means of encouraging the mining companies that have not done well in terms of copper production to do better?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Speaker, the PF Government continues to encourage the mining houses to increase production. I would like to take this opportunity to urge miners, across the mining houses, to enhance productivity while ensuring that they look after their hardworking employees.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that most of these billions that have been read out are siphoned out of our country through transfer pricing? This is because the mining companies avoid paying adequate tax and overcharge on inputs that they import from abroad. If he is aware, what measures has he taken to curtail the problem? 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Please, let us ask one question at a time.

The Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Yaluma): Mr Speaker, the Government is aware and has gone ahead to release about three statutory instruments that will compel the mines to adhere to the reporting procedures. This way, we can, at least, quantify and accurately determine what went out through the borders and also look at what they are being taxed for. So, we are very much following that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr B. M. Mwale (Malambo): Mr Speaker, Konkola Copper Mines had a new project called Konkola Deep Mining Project. When will this project contribute to copper production so that Konkola Copper Mines could reach the 500,000 metric tonnes per year threshold?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, Konkola Copper Mines has already invested US$1.73 billion. We are following the progress being made. In fact, their projection has already been reported as to how much they are going to be mining from that and we fully support what they are doing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, from the figures that the hon. Minister has given the House, how much of that money was collected in taxes by the Government?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, that is a new question. I can bring a written answer once we check with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF KAPIRI-MPOSHI HIGH SCHOOLS

536. Mr L. Zimba (Kapiri-Mposhi) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education when the construction of the following schools in Kapiri-Mposhi Parliamentary Constituency would be completed:

(i)    Kapiri-Mposhi Day High School; and

(ii)    Kapiri-Mposhi Girls’ Technical High School.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education and I visited the two schools in mid-June and there is a significant amount of work that has been done.

Sir, in the case of Kapiri-Mposhi Day High School, Phase I of construction has already been completed and is awaiting approval from the Zambia Public Procurement Agency (ZPPA). For Kapiri-Mposhi Girls’ Technical High School, there is also a significant amount of work that has been done. It has been approved by the ZPPA and the Ministerial Tender Committee at the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education and is just waiting for the final approval from the Ministry of Justice for Phase II to commence. 

Mr Speaker, both schools will be completed in 2013, but I will not give the specific date.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that there has been no high school in Kapiri-Mposhi since independence …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The hon. Member has not posed a question yet.

Mr L. Zimba: I am protected, please.

Laughter

Mr L. Zimba: Since we do not have a high school in Kapiri-Mposhi, as at now, and the hon. Minister has promised that the two schools will be opened in 2013. Can he confirm whether it is January, 2013 because there is no examination centre in the district?

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, I was hoping that the hon. Member would appreciate when the hon. Deputy Minister mentioned that we took the trouble to go to Kapiri-Mposhi to inspect the development at the two schools. Let us learn to appreciate what others have done in our areas, rather than lamenting unnecessarily because, in Kapiri-Mposhi District, we have mission schools, such as St Pauls, Mpunde, Mukonchi and Pope John Paul II. However, to cut the long story short, the contract for the construction of Kapiri-Mposhi Girls’ Technical High School was signed on 15th April, 2009, and works were expected to be completed on 11th October, 2011. I wished the hon. Member had the same zeal to chase the completion of this school as he is doing now. The construction of Kapiri-Mposhi Day High School commenced on 21st July, 2008 and was expected to be completed on 19th July, 2010. This is what prompted me, as hon. Minister, to go and see for myself what was causing the delay. We discovered that it was due to delayed payments that the Phase II external works could not begin. I assure him that we are also very concerned. This is a magnificent piece of architecture we are talking about and seeing it unoccupied does not please anybody. We will try, as much as possible, to complete it so that the pupils occupy it for the sake of their future and the nation’s development.

I thank you, Sir.

RAILWAY SYSTEMS OF ZAMBIA CONCESSION

537. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication whether the Government had any plans to revise the terms of the concession agreement entered into between itself and the Railway Systems of Zambia (RSZ).

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to revise the two concession agreements, freight and passenger, between itself and the RSZ. The two agreements have challenges that affect both the RSZ and the Government. To this effect, the Government has engaged the RSZ over the contentious clauses in the concession agreements since 2008. Progress has been made and the two parties have agreed on revisiting certain contentious clauses in the concession agreements.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has informed the House that the Government is ready to revise the agreement. Is he aware that 90 per cent of the freight wagons at the RSZ, at the moment, are not benefiting Zambians? They only benefit neighbouring countries, such as South Africa.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that 90 per cent of the wagons are benefiting foreigners. We will look into that and find out whether what has been said is the correct position.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am asking this question believing that the hon. Minister has actually read the contents of the concession which, in effect, was meant to improve the operations of Zambia Railways to benefit Zambians. Does he think that this is an improvement, when there were signal lights when the concession was signed, but human beings are, now, used to control traffic between motorists and trains? If not, does he consider terminating the concession so that we can stop using human traffic signals?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I think, this is what was obtaining in the past and that is why we are revising it. We are also trying to have a discussion with the RSZ and see what can be done best. We are currently reading the concession and engaging the Attorney-General’s Office to see how best we can review it and move forward.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, Sir …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am aware that the late President, Mr Mwanawasa, at one time, while attending a meeting in Cape Town, had informed the nation that the Government was going to terminate the contract between the RSZ and the Government of the Republic of Zambia, but that never came to fruition. I would like to get a definite answer from my colleague, the hon. Minister of Works, Transport, Supply and Communication on whether, this time around, the Government of the Republic of Zambia will make a firm decision on the RSZ, taking into account the fact that the railway system in Zambia is the worst in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I stated that we are still studying the agreement and involving the legal minds to see how best this can be resolved. Once we are done with the studies, we will be able to give proper feedback on which direction we will take.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the concession is not negotiable in its current form?

Mr Speaker: Let me interpose because one of my functions is to control the debates. The hon. Minister has made it abundantly clear that they are studying the agreement and engaging the Attorney-General. Thereafter, a position will be taken. I am sure, in that sense, we will take a holistic approach and look at the entire agreement and all its implications.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, we seem to be going back to this issue because it has been brought to this House before. It was an issue where the previous Government had signed a wrong concession and the Attorney-General’s Office was involved.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is speaking.

Mr Muntanga: When will the Attorney-General’s Office, through the hon. Minister, come out clearly because that particular concession has been a big problem to Zambia? When will they come clean on this issue?

Mr Speaker: Would you like to reiterate your position, hon. Minister?

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, we are still studying and are involving the legal minds. When we finish with the studies, we will come back and report on this issue.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

RENOVATION OF MINISTERIAL HOUSES

538. Mr Mbulakulima asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a)    whether the Government had completed renovating all the ministerial houses countrywide;

(b)    how much money had been spent on rehabilitating the ministerial houses in Lusaka and Copperbelt provinces as of 30th May, 2012;

(c)    who the contractors for the rehabilitation works at (b) above were; and 

(d)    how the contractors were selected.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Dr Mwali): Mr Speaker, the Government has not completed renovating all the ministerial houses countrywide due to budgetary constraints. As such, these were mainly major repair works to make some of the houses habitable. The remaining works will be completed when more funds are allocated in next year’s Budget.

Mr Speaker, K2.7 billion had been spent by 30th May, 2012, broken down as follows: 

Province                Amount (K’bn)

Lusaka     2.5 

Copperbelt Province     0.205

Total     2.207

Mr Speaker, the following contractors were engaged to rehabilitate ministerial houses in Lusaka Province:

(a)    Concise Engineering Limited;

(b)    A. K Electrical Jobbing Limited;

(c)    Integrity Trading Limited;

(d)    Lumworks Enterprises Limited; 

(e)    Emmaloy Investments Limited;

(f)    Chusaka Construction Company Limited;

(g)    Monstone Investments Limited;

(h)    Modern Works Contractors;

(i)    Mach Tech Limited;

(j)    Kegon Services Limited;

(k)    Woodlands Investment Limited;

(l)    Tijem Enterprises Limited; and

(m)    Jing De Zham Enterprises Limited. 

On the Copperbelt Province, we had Geoffrey Ingenuity Limited.

Mr Speaker, the above contractors were selected through a limited bidding process.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, K2.7 billion has been spent, so far, and you are still moving on. For five years, the Government has endured living in the same houses. Why is the Government not considerate of the poor people, instead of thinking of itself? 

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! 

That is still a question.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, we need to ensure that engineering installations are maintained. We inherited dilapidated houses, and I remember, last time, one hon. Member referred to one of the houses as a pigsty, which is very bad. We need to maintain standards. We cannot allow infrastructure that was put up by the previous Governments to go to waste. So, we need to maintain it. If anything, it has not been maintained at a standard that we would want it to be. So, the expenditure you are talking about is not as much as you think. It is important that we maintain all Government buildings and houses. Wherever you see a bad building, you are told it belongs to the Government, but it should not be like that. If these houses are not maintained, sooner or later, there will be a need to spend more money to build new ones. However, we cannot go in that direction. We need to maintain what we have. It is quite unfortunate that you lived in such bad houses for five years. We do not want to do that because we want to set standards.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, the house for the Copperbelt Provincial Minister is rehabilitated almost every year. Why can they not consider building another house if the current one is so dilapidated?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I think, that is new information that we need to follow up. We need to find out where the money for rehabilitation was going. 

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: When we looked at the state of the house, we actually thought there was a need to rehabilitate it. I think that it is important that we follow up that issue and find out what has been happening. We have only been in office for less than a year.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

ZESCO MANAGERS WHOSE CONTRACTS WERE TERMINATED

539. Mr Mbulakulima asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development:

(a)    how many managers at ZESCO Limited had their contracts terminated between 25th September, 2011 and 30th April, 2012;

(b)    what necessitated the action at (a) above; and

(c)    how much money was paid out in terminal benefits.

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Speaker, between the period 25th September, 2011 and 30th April, 2012, contracts for seventeen managers at ZESCO were terminated. The action was necessitated by the process of restructuring and re-organisation of ZESCO Limited, aimed at improving performance and service delivery. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Speaker, K54,820,629,778.30 was paid out as terminal benefits, with K38,289,747,879.57 being retirement benefits and K16,530,881,898.73 paid out as pension benefits. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, seventeen managers were fired in such a short period of time and it is being referred to as a restructuring process. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: When senior people are asking …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, proceed. I have secured the silence. 

Laughter  

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, why was this restructuring process targeted at only those perceived to be MMD supporters?

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, to the best of our knowledge, those fired were not perceived to be MMD members. Those managers were retired after having looked at the needs of the company. We had to look at which services could be retained and which needed to go. There were, therefore, no politically motivated retirements. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the managers were actually retired, not fired. I thank him for the clarification. However, of the seventeen positions held by those who were retired, how many posts did you come up with after restructuring because I believe that you amalgamated some, or are they still seventeen?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, restructuring is an on-going process. As we speak, ZESCO is still restructuring. It has not yet come to the final structure. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Speaker gave the Floor to the Hon. Lufuma. 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events. 

Mr Mufalali (Senanga Central): Mr Speaker, overhauling seventeen managers is a big thing for a company. Does the hon. Minister realise the vacuum that was created due to this restructuring process, because ZESCO is now under-performing?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, may I remind this august House that, in 1991, when the MMD came into power, more than forty senior members of ZESCO were retired. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the retiring of these managers was meant to improve service. Can he, please, share with the House, and the nation at large, what particular service that ZESCO provides has actually improved. Is it load-shedding?

Laughter 

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, that is a new question, but I will attempt to answer it. 

The House will recall that, in order to improve performance at ZESCO – and ‘performance’ is a relative term, but I will interpret it as I understand it – you will not change all its scope of performance within an overnight stint. We have embarked on a seriously ambitious programme of improving generation capacity. The country will only see and acknowledge the change in performance after all the projects in generation are brought on line. Therefore, please, bear with us.  Whether there is performance or not, be patient, you will see the results.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, the country is experiencing load-shedding like it has never before. 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Interruptions

Ms Kalima: Could the dismissal of seventeen managers be the main reason for the load-shedding and poor performance? We have seen that there has been no continuity at ZESCO. 

Interruptions

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, having load-shedding is, actually, an advantage because we can access supply. Without it, we could not have been having equal access to supply.

Thank you, Sir.

SCHOOLS IN KAMFINSA

540. Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    when the Government would construct a secondary school in Bupe Ward in Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency to cater for the growing population; and

(b)    when construction of the following schools would be completed:

(i)    Misaka Community; and

(ii)    Chibansa Basic. 

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, we recognise that the …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, you are not audible. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Please, proceed, but slowly. 

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker (raised his voice), we recognise that there is a need to construct more educational infrastructure in Kamfinsa. As a result of this recognition, there has been a provision that has been made in the 2012/2013 Infrastructure Development Plan for Bupe Ward. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the construction of …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Members on the left, please, stop the running commentaries. It is making business difficult to transact. There are alternative venues for those running commentaries, including external services. 

The hon. Minister may proceed.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, Misaka Community School and Chibansa Basic School will be completed when adequate funds are made available.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, I am very grateful that my Government has promised to sort out the challenges my constituency is facing in the education sector.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

ADMINISTRATON OF SCHOOLS IN MAMBOLOMOKA WARD FROM KALABO DISTRICT

541. Mr Njeulu asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education why seven schools in Mambolomoka Ward in Shang’ombo District were still being administered from Kalabo District.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the seven schools in Mambolomoka Ward in Shang’ombo District are still being administered from Kalabo District because they were in Kalabo District before Shang’ombo District was created. Since the creation of Shang’ombo District, the seven schools have not yet been aligned to the district, but the Government is working on the modalities of administering the seven schools from there.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Njeulu: Mr Speaker, these schools have, actually, been under Kalabo District since 1997. When do you think these schools will start reporting to Shang’ombo District?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, further to what the hon. Deputy Minister indicated, I wish to say that Shang’ombo District is, now, waiting for instructions from the Permanent Secretary in the Western Province, to instruct Kalabo District to surrender all the schools in Mambolomoka Ward to the district. I can only hope that this will be expedited so that the situation normalises.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

PERMANENT SECRETARIES

542. Mr Kalaba (Bahati) asked the Vice-President:

(a)    how many Permanent Secretaries had been in Government service as of 31st March, 2012; and

(b)    under what type of contract of employment the Permanent Secretaries served.

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, thirty-three Permanent Secretaries were in Government service as of 31st March, 2012.

Sir, the Permanent Secretaries are serving on an initial three-year contract.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, I thank His Honour the Vice-President for that very brief, but complete answer. 

Sir, the idea of permanent secretaries is borrowed from the Westminster system. Does the Government have any intentions of making the office of Permanent Secretaries permanent, as the name suggests?

The Vice-President: With your indulgence, Mr Speaker, could I give the questioner some advice; that, should he have wanted more information than I have provided, he should have asked for it in the question. It is very difficult to shoot from the hip when supplementary after-thoughts come along.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

CONSTRUCTION OF HEALTH POSTS IN LUNDAZI

543. Dr Kazonga (Vubwi) asked the Minister of Health whether the Government had any plans to construct health posts in the following chiefdoms in Lundazi:

(a)    Chief Kapichila’s area, at Chideza, Nkhazi Mwene, Katopola, Chiswe and Kakumba;

(b)    Senior Chief Mwase’s area at Nthitimila;

(c)    Chief Mpamba’s area, at Fyofyo 

(d)    and Kaithinde; and

(e)    If not, whether consideration would be given to the above-named places in 2013.

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Health has plans to construct 650 health posts countrywide with support from the Indian Government line of credit, the agreement of which has now been signed.

Sir, nine health posts will be constructed in Lundazi District as follows:

(i)    two at Chief Kapichila’s area at Chiswe an Kakumba;

(ii)    one at senior Chief Mwase’s area at Nthitimila and

(iii)    Njoka, Nkulamaembe, Kapembele, Kataba, Kamuzhule, and Boyole. 

Sir, no health post will be constructed at Chief Mphamba’s area. However, more health posts will be considered in 2013 Budget, to cover other needy areas, which may include Chief Mphamba’s area.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, will the planned health post in Senior Chief Mwase’s area at Nthitimila be at Nthitimila Basic School?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I may, perhaps, begin by suggesting to the hon. Member to try and establish a stand for his denominator. This is because, at one time, he was talking of the district, another time of the chiefdom and, now, a constituency. This nomadic way of looking at the question …

Laughter

Mr Kalaba crossed the Floor.

Laughter

Dr Kasonde: … might have a rather bad effect on the way we respond and how we compare one district with another. 

Sir, the location of health posts has been left for the local communities to decide. In the event that the hon. Member believes that it should be in or near a school, it is entirely up to him to recommend to the local community.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, there are very interesting names that we are hearing from the Eastern Province.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Will the ministry not consider building one of the health posts at Fyofyo …

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: … in Chief Mphamba’s area?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I do not want to venture as far as determining what has motivated that question.

Laughter

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I think that among the early ventures in this exercise will be improving our ability to understand the names. Thereafter, we shall consider building a health post in Chief Mphamba’s area, subject, of course, to its meeting the other requirements that I have already outlined.

I thank you, Sir.

______

MOTIONS

APPROVAL OF GOVERNMENT MINISTRIES AND DEPARTMENTS

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that, in terms of Article 44 (2) (e) of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, this House do approve the abolition and establishment of the Government ministries and departments established by the President as appended hereto.

Sir, we have been here before and I am sure all hon. Members of the House, by now, are accustomed to this type of house-keeping measure that we occasionally adopt to restructure the Executive.

Mr Speaker, under Paragraph (e) of Clause 2 of Article 44, the President is empowered by the Constitution to abolish and establish Government ministries and departments as he sees fit, subject to the approval of this house. So, there is no news there except, possibly, for our new hon. Members.

Sir, in the exercise of the above-stated constitutional powers, His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, has abolished the following three ministries:

(i)    the Ministry of Finance and National Planning;

(ii)    the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Tourism; and

(iii)    the Ministry of Information, Broadcasting and Labour

Mr Speaker, in place of the three that have been abolished, there are five new ministries that have been created.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Let us leave His Honour the Vice-President to issue the statement and, thereafter, follow it up with questions.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am sure that there will be very little debate on this Motion, although I appreciate the point that Hon. Muntanga and some of his colleagues on that bench are addicted to debates and will, therefore, feel obliged to say something.

Sir, His Excellency the President has established the following new ministries:

(i)    the Ministry of Finance;

(ii)    the Ministry of Foreign Affairs;

(iii)    the Ministry of Tourism and Art;

(iv)    the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting; and

(v)    the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

Mr Speaker, in addition to the creation of the Ministry of Gender and Child Development, the Anti-Gender Based Violence Act, 2011, has been re-allocated from the Ministry of Justice to the Ministry of Gender and Child Development.  

Sir, the best thing may be for hon. Members to examine the appendix to the Order Paper, which gives, in Part A, very simply the three ministries abolished and, in Part B, the five created.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Finance kept its name as the Ministry of Finance and National Planning accidentally, even after having been re-named the first time that we came to this House for the approval of ministries.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was introducing the changes and explaining what motivated them. I was talking about the first ministry to be created, that is, the Ministry of Finance, which is simply the old Ministry of Finance and National Planning re-named to emphasise its importance. The re-naming had already been done, technically speaking, in this House but, unfortunately, bureaucratic errors led to the change of names being gazetted, but the usage not being changed.

Mr Speaker, there is a complicated story about how we had regazetted it as the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. However, I would not want to bore hon. Members with this bit of technical stuff.

Sir, a minor change is the removal of the arts from the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs and taking them to the Ministry of Tourism. We believe that arts go better with tourism. The other four ministries, apart from the Ministry of Finance, basically result from the splitting of two ministries. One was the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Tourism, which has now been split into the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Tourism and Art. The other was the Ministry of Information, Broadcasting and Labour, which has now been broken into the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting and the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. So, these are the house-keeping changes that we have made.

Mr Speaker, the restructuring of Government ministries is a continuous exercise. This may not be the last time that I am coming to this House with such a Motion. Other people before me have come to this House with such Motions because that is the way to go. We have had arguments before as to whether certain appointments should be ratified. I am sure that a quick visit to hansard will confirm most of the issues that I am talking about. I request this august House to favourably consider the measures I have outlined. We have masses of written words and talking points in the appendix to the Motion. If hon. Members want to take us to task on any of these ministries, there are both serving hon. Ministers or minister-designates who are prepared to stand up and take up their full twenty minutes explaining what everybody already knows. I do not want to suggest that I have been in any kind of collusion with anybody. I am sure that, if art is not given its own portfolio, the artists will be singing songs about hyenas having no plans …

Laughter 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … and not being able to see why they should exist together with chiefs. Nonetheless, I want to emphasise the fact that national planning has not been removed from the portfolio functions. The name of the ministry has just been made shorter, in accordance with the taste of some of us.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this chance to debate this Motion, which has been moved by His Honour the Vice-President. In supporting this Motion, …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Namulambe: ... I want to reiterate the words of the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central. He had, earlier, advised this Government to do a study and bring to this House everything to do with the re-alignment of ministries, holistically, so that we do things once and for all. Bringing these changes piecemeal is not helpful at all. Of course, we are aware of the campaign promise that the Patriotic Front (PF) made that it would reduce the Cabinet. However, I think that, in so doing, the Government should have first waited to see how the Executive operates because most of its hon. Minister are new. So, giving them heavy responsibilities when they were still learning creates problems.

Mr Speaker, I have noted in the Motion moved that the Government has increased the size of the Cabinet by the creation of one or two new ministries. In fact, the Cabinet has increased from eighteen hon. Ministers, in the previous Government, to something like twenty, at the moment. In my view, there are some ministries that are still loaded with too many departments. Therefore, more new ministries need to be created. This is the more reason my colleagues on your right should have taken the advice of the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central to do a study. Afterwards, the Government would have brought all their suggested changes to the House at once. 

Mr Speaker, for example, the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development is too big and needs to be cut into two. We have seen that this ministry concentrates more on energy at expense of mining.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Even water development is not receiving adequate attention. Maybe, the hon. Minister is still trying to see how he can stretch his legs here and there so as to deal with all the sectors under this ministry. His Honour the Vice-President must quickly move another Motion to split it so that there is efficiency in that ministry.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications is also too big. There is concentration on one sector under this ministry while other areas suffer. On the other hand, there is always a queue of officers wanting to see the hon. Minister for briefings, as opposed to him giving audience to members of the public. He is busy just talking to ministry officials, everyday, because they are the ones who occupy the visitors’ chairs in the hon. Minister’s office. So, this ministry must also be split, too. 

Mr Speaker, another one is the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. We have seen that the hon. Minister concentrates more on education in primary and secondary schools.

Dr Phiri: Question!

Mr Namulambe: When he goes to visit the colleges, he is upset because there are too many things that he is not aware of happening there.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: So, there is a need for this ministry to go back to being just the Ministry of Education. It should just be dealing with education at primary and secondary school levels, leaving tertiary education the way it was before so that there is proper attention to the students in higher learning institutions.

Mr Speaker, instead of having three hon. Deputy Ministers under the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock, why can the Government not just split the ministry so that we have a minister in charge of livestock only? I remember the hon. Deputy Ministers of Agriculture and Livestock fighting to answer questions yesterday.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: If this ministry is split, maybe, one of them, and I do not know which one, …

Hon. Members: Kazabu!

Mr Namulambe: Yes, Hon. Kazabu, who is tasked with looking after the livestock department, could be the hon. Minister in charge of livestock.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, there is nothing wrong with aligning the ministries the way I have explained it. We have seen that, currently, the President is creating new districts. The idea, according to what we are hearing, is to create efficiency in the administration of local authority functions. In a similar way, there is nothing wrong in having more ministries if the aim is to achieve efficiency in the delivery of public services.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, after all, there are some Back Benchers on your right who are jealous of the people who have been poached from us.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, you are, now, going into a difficult terrain.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: We are not permitted to debate ourselves in that fashion. What is open for debate are the proposed ministries and departments, not the prospective holders of those offices.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance. The creation of the new ministries is, at least, going to create more employment for those who are in the back benches of the Ruling Party.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, what should have been done was to bring this Motion, first, on the Floor of this House before the hon. Ministers were appointed and sworn in. Swearing in an hon. Minister before approval is more or less like having the chick before an egg. I have only supported this Motion because I know that the new hon. Minister of Tourism and Art will add value to this country’s development by taking her experience to the Cabinet.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: However, that will depend on her using all the experience she gained from the MMD, …

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: … and using it effectively, to come up with new ideas. What we want is success for the present Government because this will lead to a better life for our people.

Mr Speaker, I appeal, once more, to His Honour the Vice-President to quickly bring in another Motion to create the ministry that I have suggested. Let the Government not feel shy to do so. What we want is for the people of Zambia to be properly attended to by the respective hon. Ministers. Therefore, bringing these Motions in piece-meal is not helping the Government because it is heavy laden with many issues to attend to. 

With these words, Mr Speaker, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to debate the straightforward Motion on the Floor of this House. We are being asked to approve the abolition and establishment of ministries, in accordance with Article 44 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. Allow me to quote Article 44 (1):

“As the Head of State, the President shall perform with dignity and leadership all acts necessary or expedient for, or reasonably incidental to, the discharge of Executive functions of the Government subject to the overriding terms of this Constitution and Laws of Zambia, which he is Constitutionally obliged to protect, administer and execute.”

Mr Speaker, the intent of this particular article that we are being asked to use, today, to approve these ministries was meant to allow the President to deliver service according to the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia without any hindrance.

Mr Speaker, I suspect that the words ‘dignity’ and ‘reasonable’ were used for a purpose. I perused through the Oxford English Dictionary where ‘dignity’ is defined as “composed or serious manner or style while” while ‘reasonable’ is defined as “fair and sensible”.

Laughter

 Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, it seems that we come to do the same things every time that we assemble here, which is abolishing and establishing ministries. 

Sir, in contrast to what is obtaining in this House, this afternoon, Article 44 (4) (a) of the Constitution reads as follows:

“The National Assembly shall not unreasonably refuse or delay such ratification, but the question whether the National Assembly has so acted reasonably shall not be enquired into by any court.” 

Mr Speaker, I think that the dilemma that we find ourselves in, this afternoon, is the question of what happens when the Executive is the one that becomes unreasonable. It appears unreasonable, to me, that we should be coming here, every time, to be approving, abolishing and establishing ministries. We cannot be doing the same things over and over. It becomes unreasonable and undignified, according to Article 44 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Speaker, I am rising on a point of order for the first time since I was born. Is the hon. Member, who is trying to sound so intelligent, in order to insinuate that the Executive is not being reasonable by bringing this Motion to this House? I need your serious, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I note the point of order and would like to counsel that points of order should not be used as a means to debate. The hon. Member has his own understanding of Article 44 (1) of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. Whether that understanding is correct or not is a matter of debate and, I think, everybody is open to weigh that submission and argue or submit whether it comports with the intention of the Legislature. 

I would like to remind the House at large that we are considering a very specific provision in Article 44 (4) (i) (e) of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. There is a danger when you venture into matters of construction, of presenting an argument that might not be legally tenable, especially if you are not properly aided. However, even if it is not legally tenable, in view of free speech, I have always urged that it is not my function to censor those views. I take that to be the very essence of parliamentary democracy. People should be allowed to air their views and, at the end of the day, the majority view will carry the day. We have very clear processes for determining that majority view. So, for the time being, I will allow the debate to proceed freely for people to venture in interpretation and postulate whatever arguments and submissions they feel necessary. However, at the end of the day, we have a process that will determine which direction we will go.

That is my ruling.

Hon. Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, we have spoken, on the Floor of this House, about abolishing and establishing ministries before. I think that it is only right that the Executive should listen when we speak. We keep embarrassing the country and the President by not aiding him correctly. We cannot even advise him on who was a colonial master and who was not.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: Hammer, hammer!

  Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, as I indicated, earlier, there must be dignity and rationale in the manner in which we do things, particularly things relating to matters of the State and the nation. It is not right for us to keep doing the same things every time we come here. When are we going to attend to other matters?

Sir, in any case, we advised the Government against the creation of new ministries. Despite our warnings, however, it went ahead, with impunity, to establish those ministries that it, now, wants to abolish.

Mr Speaker, logic dictates that, before you determine which structure will deliver, you need to be aware of where you are going and what you intend to achieve. The challenge that we have with the PF Government is that it has no defined policy on where it wants to take this country.

Hon Opposition Member: No plan.

Mr Belemu: All it wants is to ask for the approval of structures. 

Interjections

Hon Government member: Question!

Mr Belemu: Before you determine where you want to go, which could be to the moon or the river, it is very critical to have a sense of direction. Do not buy a boat if you intend to travel to the moon. You will not reach it.

Laughter

 Mr Belemu: The problem the Government has had has been its failure to determine where it wants to take this country. It is only after determining that factor that the Government can determine what structures and human resource it needs. It has no idea where it wants to take this country and that is why it has ended up borrowing practices from the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD), a party which it called corrupt.

Interjections

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, if the Government knew its direction, it would know the kind of structure and human resource it needs to deliver. The challenge, now, is that it has to borrow human resource from the MMD.

Interjections

Hon Opposition Member: Mwaliteta, do you see what you have brought?

Laughter 

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, the stated position of the PF is that it wants to run a lean Government and save costs, but the Motion before us contradicts that publicly pronounced policy. So, what do they want us to do? Is it to agree with the unannounced or announced policy? At what stage has the PF changed its policy to that of increasing the number of hon. Ministers and hon. Deputy Ministers?

Mr Speaker, in fact, I feel that rejecting this Motion would be helping the PF to achieve its stated policy.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, Hear!

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Let us listen in silence. I know that this is a very topical issue, perhaps, exciting and, in some sense, emotive for some. However, we can still listen attentively. 

You can proceed.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, the next matter we must consider is the perceived instability of the nation. A number of the decisions that our colleagues in the Executive are making are not planned and budgeted for. They want to keep making changes. When you keep changing positions at the institutional or family levels, it shows a lot of inconsistency and brings about confusion. You cannot be changing wives every day, unless there is a problem. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, you cannot be changing the structure of your family every day, unless there is a problem. In the current circumstances, we see hon. Ministers being changed and departments being moved from one ministry to another. That shows a lot of inconsistency and instability and paints a wrong perception about this country. What conclusion is a reasonable person expected to draw over the affairs of this country? It is like the country is being governed by people who do not know what they are doing. Every time we come here, we are approving and abolishing, the same things that we have done before. 

Mr Speaker, this country has a wealth of knowledge which, unfortunately, the Executive is not tapping into. If the Executive went to the Public Service Management Division (PSMD), it would be advised on the correct structure for this Government. There are people in that division who are qualified to offer advice. When we advise you, you must learn to listen because, not too long from now, you will still come back with another ministry. That very much we know.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Let us have order!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, that is the challenge we have. This Government does not want to listen when it is advised, hence its tendency to do the opposite of what it is advised the following day.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, I also want to raise an issue of morals. When people, particularly elderly people, make promises, they must learn to keep them. The Government said it wanted a lean Government to reduce costs. Therefore, it must honour that promise. In any case, it was said that this country would be led using the Ten Commandments. As a good Christian, it is not my intention that any of those colleagues on your right should not enter heaven.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, Exodus 20:7, New International Version (NIV) reads as follows:

 “You shall not misuse …”

Mr Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Member, I am afraid, you cannot use that resource.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, the Bible admonishes that you shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. If you want to lead by the Ten Commandments, do so. The Ten Commandments indicate that you must always say the truth. We need to be told the truth about the matters of governing this country. 

Sir, the other issue is that of abusing processes and procedures. As Hon. Namulambe has said, we just see people being sworn in. When we come here, we just see people joining us when we do not even know why they are here. 

Hon. Government Members: Boma!

Mr Belemu: It is not Boma. That is a state of confusion in the governance of the country.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Member, may you sit down because I would like to counsel you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: You are addressing the Speaker, not the hon. Members on my right. Regardless of what comments are running there, that is not your audience. Your audience is Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: If your debate will be conditioned by the running comments, then, you will mislead yourself. Debate according to what you think and feel. You should not be responding to those comments which, of course, I am deprecating.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, I am most obliged. One of the difficulties we have with the Executive is that it always wants to do things the wrong way. It wants to abuse the processes and procedures by appointing and swearing in people so that all we see is changing of sitting arrangement in the House only to be told what has transpired the next moment. Worse off is that the Executive is even pleased with that kind of confusion. 

Laughter

Mr Belemu: I am surprised. 

Mr Muntanga: Look at them!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I want to say that, if our colleagues had the capacity to fill these ministries and departments, we would have had no problems. However, as we stand, today, they do not. That is why they keep getting people from this side (left) of the House. Now, why are they creating structures that they cannot even fill, as a Ruling Party? Let them tell us. The alternative is that they should allow the MMD to continue ruling until further notice.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, I am one of those who stood on the Floor of this House to speak on the need for the Ministry of Tourism and Arts, which I support because I am knowledgeable in that area. However, we must look at these things …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, I have the right to say that. I am the shadow Minister of Tourism and Arts. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: I also said that there are unnecessary combinations that go with this ministry. For example, I indicated, at some point, that there was a need for us to look at the commission that is responsible for the Victoria Falls and other waterfalls in the country, the National Heritage Conservation Commission (NHCC), which, currently, is sitting in the ministry responsible for traditional affairs. 

Sir, it is a good thing that art has been added to tourism because it can not only aid it; the two go hand in hand. However, it is also important for us to look at all aspects that go with tourism so that, when we make that decision, it is done once and for all, instead of us having to come back, here, and do the same things over and over. We are concerned about the levels of inconsistency. 

Mr Livune: And lack of knowledge of this Government.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity to have spoken on the Floor. Let those who have ears hear.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to stand on the Floor of this House. As I contribute to the debate on this important Motion, let me take this opportunity to deliver my maiden speech.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, let me begin by congratulating you, the hon. Deputy Speaker and the hon. Deputy Chairperson of all Committees on your well-deserved election to these positions of authority in this august House. I also wish to take this opportunity to congratulate our President, His Excellency Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, and the PF on their victory and thank my party, the MMD, for adopting me to stand in Muchinga Constituency. This was a show of confidence in me as an upcoming leader.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: The need to balance leadership between the younger and older generations and the party’s willingness to carry on with the legacy of my late father, …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: … His Honour George Kunda, SC., MP, may his soul rest in peace, ...

Mr Speaker, my profound gratitude goes to the party President, Dr Nevers Sekwila Mumba, …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: … for his personal support right up to the announcement of the results and the subsequent victory. I was ordained as our president’s ‘first born’ and this is a sign of good things to follow in our party.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Let me take a moment to also thank my campaign team for a job well done. Words alone cannot express my gratitude. 

To my family, particularly my mother, Mrs Ireen Mwezi Kunda, and my wife, Mrs Anne Doma Gray Kunda, I thank you for your tireless support and understanding before, during and after the campaign period. As I embark on this journey, I will still need your support without which I cannot succeed.

For Muchinga, my constituency, the people elected me to take over from my late father, Hon. George Kunda, SC., MP, who passed away on 16th April, 2012.

Hon. Government Members: Twalishiba!

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to thank the President of the Republic of Zambia, the PF Government and the people of Zambia for giving my father a funeral that can only be described as befitting a king. Our burden and, indeed, our loss, as a family, the MMD and the country as a whole, was made lighter and bearable. My father was a brilliant, gallant and fearless leader who served this country …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: … faithfully, diligently and with a passion. I pledge to emulate him.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. H. Malama: Aah, kanshi you will be a bad leader!

Mr Kunda: I will stand up for human rights. It is my intention to follow my father’s footsteps on this topical issue even if it means bringing a dossier …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: … on human rights violation for the attention of the House. May his soul rest in eternal peace.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, this is a maiden speech I am delivering to this august House. I must thank the people of Muchinga Constituency most sincerely for the confidence shown in me by electing me and letting me carry the ‘mentor’ that my father carried.

Mr Mushanga: Mantle!

Mr Kunda: I am greatly humbled by this gesture. I shall continue to serve them to the best of my ability.

Mr Speaker, the people of Muchinga, like many other Zambians, are expectant. The MMD Government, under the leadership of President Rupiah Bwezani Banda, was committed to addressing problems of poverty and infrastructure development, including health centres, hospitals, roads and rural electrification throughout the country. A number of projects were on-going throughout the country and Muchinga Constituency was no exception.

Mr Mulenga: Awe niku Muchinga fye kweka.

Mr Kunda: What was intended to be done in the next five years is well-articulated in the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP). My appeal to the PF Government and the Republican President is to continue with these programmes and projects for the people of Muchinga Constituency and the country at large.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. H. Malama: Walachimona kanshi!

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, during the campaign, we may have exchanged unpleasant words as we competed for votes. The by-election is, now, behind us and, when all is said and done, we are all Zambians. As such, we should strive to forge ahead for the betterment of the lives of Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Maturity!

Mr Kunda: Let us not hold on to what went on during the elections and use that as a basis for vengeance. 

Mr Mucheleka: Mwaumfwa?

Mr M. H. Malama: Inga imwe, mwalichitilefyo?

Mr Mulenga: Nabawiso efyobali.

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, I now turn my attention to the following issues:

Schools

(a)    Chibale High School

Mr Speaker, whilst campaigning at Chibale High School, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, stated that the school, which is under construction, would not be completed because the seat belonged to the Opposition.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, I am aware that the contractor has been stopped from completing the project.

Hon. Opposition Members: Oh, shame!

Mr Kunda: This Government has a responsibility to push for completion of these works so that the people of Muchinga can be afforded an opportunity to be educated and become leaders like you, the hon. Members of this august House.

Mr Mulenga: Ukashitishe inchinga ukapwishe isukulu.

Mr Kunda: The PF Government is supposed to be a Government for the people of Zambia, not PF members only. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: I, therefore, urge the Government to be responsible and continue with the development programmes in my constituency. The people of Zambia are watching and waiting to see what will happen to this school. 

(b)    Kanona and Mailo High Schools

Mr Speaker, the works at these schools have also slowed down.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kunda: There is a need to finish constructing these schools so that the school-going children can stop walking long distances to school. The MMD Government prioritised education in order to prepare the children for an educated future.

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: My desire is to see this Government do the same.

Youth Empowerment

Mr Speaker, during the campaigns, the PF made several promises to deliver development and change things within ninety days. Some notable promises were to put more money in people’s pockets and create jobs for the people. However, the youth have been neglected. They have no jobs and no money in their pockets.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Just when I thought that the time had come for people from the older generation to encourage us to take up leadership positions, they are the ones pulling us down. The Government went to Muchinga with State machinery. His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia went with three choppers ... 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: … and fourteen vehicles, which he did not even use.

Ms Kalima: Wastage of resources!

Mr Kunda: His Honour the Vice-President, who is in this House, went to Muchinga twice, yet the normal practice for the Vice-President is to go into an area once because it is taxpayers’ money that is used.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: That includes hon. Ministers. They went to Muchinga to try and intimidate me. 

Laughter

Mr Kunda: However, the people refused to succumb to the intimidation and violence. The people of Zambia are, now, enlightened and know what they want.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: They want the youth to take up leadership positions and I am testimony to that fact.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Police Presence

Mr Speaker, police presence in my constituency is needed. My people are harassed in the morning, at midday and at night by the PF cadres, who know very well that the area is not manned by the police. I urge the Ministry of Home Affairs to seriously prioritise the building of a police post and employ police officers in the area. My constituency is vast. It is about 100km, yet the only place where you can find the police is in Serenje. The responsible ministry must treat this matter with the urgency it deserves.

Agriculture

Mr Speaker, Muchinga Constituency has vast pieces of land that can be put to good use. The youths should be trained in agriculture so as to create more jobs and put more money in their pockets. The PF promised to give fifteen bags of fertiliser per farmer under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) and criticised the MMD for giving four bags only. They called this unreasonable. However, under the PF Government, the four bags that the MMD was giving to help farmers have been taken away and this is destroying our agricultural sector and, inevitably, in the near future, we will experience shortages of the staple food. This is, also, subjecting our people to undue suffering. I urge the PF Government to consult with the MMD on how the latter successfully handled the agricultural sector and recorded unprecedented bumper harvests. 

Mr Speaker, the MMD Government bought three million tonnes of maize at over K4 trillion. This is the real way of putting money in people’s pockets.

Hon .Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, the PF Government has said that it will only buy 560,000 tonnes of maize, this year, which will only cost slightly above half a trillion kwacha. The PF Government has resorted to closing many depots that the MMD had opened to ease the buying of maize.

Mr Speaker, the MMD Government used to buy cotton from the farmers at the reasonable price of K3,200 per kilogramme. However, the PF Government has offered to buy it at K1,700 per kilogramme.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, this is taking away money from people’s pockets.

Mining

Mr Speaker, Muchinga Escarpment is rich in gemstones and other minerals. The Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development should empower the people in this area by giving them mining licences. They can partner with investors and operate freely.

Violence

Mr Speaker, I will quickly move to the issue of violence. A PF councillor from Ibolelo Ward in Serenje Central Constituency deliberately, and with impunity, stoned two of our vehicles, shattered the windscreen and other windows. Acts of violence should be frowned upon. Democracy demands free and fair elections. No violence of any form should be encouraged. I, therefore, urge the PF to educate their cadres against acts of violence.

National Service Programme

Mr Speaker, the Government intends to re-introduce the compulsory National Service Programme. This is not 1975.

Laughter

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, the youths of this country know the choices they want to make. They want to have a choice of what they want to study after completing Grade 12. This is one of the freedoms that we fought for in 1991. 

Minimum Wage

Mr Speaker, as we support the better minimum wage, it is important for the Government to take into account the employers’ concerns so that youths are not thrown out of employment.

Corruption

Mr Speaker, we saw the PF Government come up with the fight against corruption. Unfortunately, this was targeted at the MMD leaders. The police went to search my grandfather’s farm and confiscated forty-six bags of mealie-meal bought for him and the people he looks after.

Laughter

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, this is the corruption they are fighting. The bicycles, pumps and other things are still being kept by the police.

Conclusion

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, as I challenge the PF Government to deliver their campaign promises to the people of Zambia, I am cognisant of the fact that, as hon. Member of Parliament for Muchinga,  I am very much part of the delivery process. I, therefore, pledge to support the development projects that will benefit the people of Zambia. My being in the Opposition should not deter this Government from implementing and completing the development projects intended for the benefit of the people. As hon. Member of Parliament for Muchinga, I look forward to working with the Government in order to complete the programmes initiated by the MMD Government.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, I also look forward to working with the Government in starting new projects in consultation with my people in Muchinga Constituency.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!    

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, the PF is under obligation to honour the many promises it made to the people. I am very committed to helping in fulfilling those promises as hon. Member of Parliament for Muchinga. May God bless you and the great people of Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.    

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Motion on the approval of Government ministries and departments. First and foremost, I wish to express my condolences to my dear colleague, Hon. Luo, for the loss of her mother, whom she was burying this morning.

Mr Speaker, I recall that the last time I stood on the Floor of this House, I reminded my colleagues on your right that they should follow the provisions of the Constitution pertaining to the creation and abolition of ministries and Government departments. Alas, they decided, with impunity, to create ministries and implement that decision before coming to this House. This House is regulated by the Constitution, the Acts of Parliament and the Standing Orders. 

Mr Speaker, immediately after the elections, in September, 2011, I was before you, holding the Bible in my right hand and swearing to uphold the Constitution of Zambia. I will uphold the Constitution of Zambia even if I may be the only one to do so. 

Mr Speaker, I am not against the creation of any ministry, but the impunity and the procedure the Government uses to create them. 

The Government has taken it for granted that Parliament will do whatever the Executive would like to be done. This is, exactly, what they have done.   

Hon. Government Members: Boma!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I have heard that they are saying ‘Boma’. For those who do not know …

Mr Speaker: Order!

I think that I have counselled that it will not do for any person debating to be addressing the right because I may be compelled to terminate the debate. You are supposed to address the Speaker. I have a separate problem with the right and their comments, but you should not go to the right. Limit yourself to the centre. Please, hon. Members on my right, can you desist from those comments. It will not do. I think that we should not rob the House of the dignity that it deserves. In fact, the people of Zambia are with us in this building. We have made it possible. So, this takes away from the dignity of the House. This is a very serious issue and should be treated as such. So, I do not expect those who are debating to be addressing the right. Similarly, I do not expect the right to be making the running commentaries. All said and done, we have to resolve this issue, however we do it.

The hon. Member for Monze Central may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your guidance. The little knowledge I have about ‘Boma’, according to the dictionary, is British Overseas Military Administration.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Mwiimbu, may you sit down. This Motion is not addressing Boma. It is addressing the establishment of ministries and I have just made the ruling that you should not address the right. I know what the acronym ‘BOMA’ stands for and it is irrelevant to this debate, anyway. Maybe, you have no further debate.

You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, as I indicated, I stand here on behalf of the people of Monze Central and Zambia, who elected me to be in this House …

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … to uphold the constitution and the laws we pass in this House. As an hon. Member of Parliament, I will not want to be used as a rubber stamp.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That, I will never do in my life.

Mr Speaker, the advice we have been giving to the Executive has always been sincere on this matter. I am also aware that this process of creating, abolishing and re-creating ministries is unprecedented in the history of Zambia. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: In eight months, Mr Speaker, we have been continually creating and abolishing. It just shows that, actually, this House is not consistent. As my colleague has indicated, as hon. Members of Parliament, we are assumed by members of the public to be prudent and reasonable in the decisions we make on the Floor of this House.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, looking at the proposals being made by the Executive, one would not fail to congratulate the prudence of the MMD.

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It has, now, been proved to the people of Zambia and the PF that the decisions that were taken by the MMD in the creation of those were right. They were forthright and doing things on behalf of the people of Zambia.

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: When our colleagues came into office, they ridiculed almost every decision that was associated with the MMD. Today, they are emulating the MMD.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: If you look at the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, they have been returned to what they were under the MMD.

Mr Speaker, decency demands that, when you are wrong, you accept it. If they had apologised for having misled us, maybe, we would have supported this Motion. However, because of their impunity and disregard of this House, I, for one, I will not associate myself with this Motion.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, from the proposals to create and abolish ministries, the PF Government is planning to fail. How do you abolish a Ministry of Finance and National Planning? I have always been arguing with my colleagues that my colleagues on our right had a plan but, now, they have decided that they do not want planning.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!  

Mr Mwiimbu: They have decided to do away with national planning. We are going back to the days of the Second Republic, when national planning was not part of the Ministry of Finance. During that time, we had abolished national plans and this is where we are heading to. If you do not have a ministry that is responsible for national planning, you will be doing things haphazardly, and this is what we are doing.

Mr Speaker, if this is the direction our colleagues want us to go, I am afraid, they will go alone.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: If they have the numbers, let them pass it, but posterity will judge them harshly because, from history, we learnt it the hard way, during the reign of the late Frederick Titus Chiluba, who was the President of the Republic of Zambia, when national planning was abolished. We are reverting to that.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Huuwii!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I have made my point, and I have made up my mind not to support this Motion. If they had done the correct thing, I would have supported them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to make a few comments in support of the Motion moved by His Honour the Vice-President. However, before I do that, I would like to welcome my colleague, Hon. Howard Kunda, and congratulate him on his victory. He has shown that he has come with a lot of zeal but, listening to him, I was just wondering what could have …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Now, you have completed the gentleman’s remarks and it ends there, as a gentleman.

Could you proceed.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I would like to state from the outset that the PF Government has been put in place by the people of the Republic of Zambia for a purpose. In working towards achieving that purpose, I have no apologies to make for trying different ways of governing because, when you have a fresh mandate and you meet challenges in the system, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Kampyongo:  … it is important to try and see what you can do when about them. I think new results cannot be achieved using old formulas that have been failing. I must thank the President for being brave or wise because he listens to the people. When people complain, a leader should be able to listen. That is what makes this PF a listening Government. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Changes were made and, indeed, complaints were there. So, this brave leader acknowledged and that we could have ignored some important things. It is important to review these things and get back to what has been proposed, today. So, we must just accept that it is important to have a listening leader, who does not stick to his guns even when it is imprudent to do so.

Mr Speaker, there is also the issue of youth unemployment. I am very happy to see the re-introduction of the Ministry of Tourism and Art. Under the portfolio of this ministry, there are some very encouraging functions, such as Arts, Cultural Centres, Culture Industries, Culture Policy and Casinos. We have been listening to our friends in the different arts, such as musicians and those who are in arts and crafts. The Government has not tapped much from those sectors, which can provide immediate solutions to the lack of employment. If you just look at the number of young people in the music industry, now, you will understand that this is an industry from which our youths can tap a living. However, there has not been a clear policy framework to safeguard young people in this industry so that they earn a meaningful living.

Sir, the other day, we were debating the issue of culture in this House. I am happy to see that there is the Culture Policy under the Ministry of Tourism and Art because, indeed, a country without culture can be a lost country, like it was put in this House. 

Sir, we know that Hon. Masebo is hardworking. She has to work tirelessly to quickly put in place policies to accompany these portfolio functions so that we start generating revenue from some of them.

Mr Speaker, I am, also, happy to note that, under the statutory bodies and institutions in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, there is the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA). Again, the people in this country have always wanted this and the President has listened and gone ahead to create them, today. People from different sectors, also, wanted the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to be on its own. The President has listened and done, exactly, what the people were asking for but, then, it becomes a problem. What sort of a nation are we?

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: I am happy, too, that we do not have a President I would call, in our language, chumbu munshololwa, because there are leaders who are like that.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The hon. Member …

Mr Kampyongo: This means, people who are like a burnt sweet potato, which you can never straighten because, when you try to do so, it breaks. There are leaders whom we have seen failing to get somewhere.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: So, I am happy that the Ministry of Labour and Social Security has come at a critical time, when we have so many challenging issues and people have been taken advantage of and abused in labour matters.  Mr Minister …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, through you, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to ensure that …

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Member, we have a very specific Motion and I do not think this is an opportunity for you to begin counselling hon. Ministers. That is, largely, the prerogative of the President and, in our context, the left. Of course, you are free to contribute, but my concern is that I think that you are stepping outside the bounds of the expected debate; the Motion moved by His Honour the Vice-President. If you have exhausted your points – and I know that we still have time for you – you are not compelled to exhaust that time. 

You may continue.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, for that guidance.

Sir, in supporting this Motion, I am very happy that the President has listened to calls for him to make the Ministry of Labour and Social Security stand alone.  I am also very happy with the portfolio functions that have been provided under the ministry.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, like I said earlier, we are a Government elected by the people and I stand here firmly representing the people of Shiwang’andu. We are going to fully support this Motion.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the repeated abolition and creation of the ministries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, as I stand to speak, I wonder why this Government has continued dragging Parliament in its wrong-doings. They are treating Parliament like we are school children. We just come to rubber-stamp. 

Mr Speaker, the MMD has been ridiculed and called names …

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Kasenengwa in order to use the phrase ‘rubber stamp’ when it is unparliamentary?  Sir, I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: It is, clearly, unparliamentary. Also, just from a substantive point of view, Hon. Mwiimbu has made his point and I do not want to go over it. However, there is a reason this Motion has been brought here. It is not a ceremonial function. The Executive is seeking the approval of the Legislature. So, we cannot say that we are here to rubber-stamp. That is a contradiction in terms. I do not think that we would be devoting precious time if, for any reason, we are viewing this exercise as rubber-stamping. That is a misconception. It is not and I do not want to go over the issues that have already been raised. 

Apart from the fact that the phrase is, of course, unparliamentary, the House, itself, is also not a rubber-stamping authority. Logically, also, we are not here to rubber-stamp. I do not think that we would be spending this kind of time and resources if that were the object. This is too serious a House to be engaged in rubber-stamping. 

The hon. Member for Kasenengwa continue.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘rubber stamp’. I do not understand why the PF Government would want to drag this Parliament in its wrong-doings and mistakes by debating the already-appointed and sworn-in hon. Ministers. The MMD has been ridiculed and called all sorts of names. I am glad that this PF Government is doing exactly what the MMD did. We are the best party because they are following in our footsteps.

Mr Speaker, in commenting on the Motion, I tend to wonder where the aspect of national planning has been taken. I am talking about the absence of the national planning aspect in the name of the Ministry of Finance. It would not augur well, in future, to still come back to this House and debate this issue. We had to speak …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. Is the hon. Member debating in order to insinuate, in this House, that national planning has been abolished without carefully reading the document on the portfolio functions? Under the Ministry of Finance, national planning is a portfolio function of this ministry. Is she in order to insinuate that it has been abolished? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: As the hon. Member for Kasenengwa continues debating, she should remember to take time to look at what has been presented by His Honour the Vice-President in its totality so that she can debate this Motion factually. 

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, changes like the one being proposed for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning are not new. We saw the same thing happen when the Ministry of Gender was abolished and put as a portfolio under His Honour the Vice-President’s Office. It had to take this House to remind the current Government that it was very important to have the Ministry of Gender. Fortunately, they came back to this House and reconsidered their decision.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: I am glad to see that we have the hon. Minister of Gender and Child Development in this House. I am talking about the issue of national planning because I do not want the PF Government to, later, involve the hon. Members of Parliament in reconsidering the decision to add the aspect of national planning, again, to the name of the Ministry of Finance.

Mr Speaker, let me talk about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Tourism. Indeed, this House spoke against combining the two important ministries. The ministry responsible for tourism is important and should stand alone because it caters for an economic ministry. Despite most us agreeing that the two ministries were not supposed to be combined, the exact opposite was done. I am glad to say that the MMD has recorded a milestone by exporting another member to run the Ministry of Tourism and Arts. I congratulate the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts on her appointment because she is from the MMD.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, I also want to comment on the Ministry of Information, Broadcasting and Labour. Indeed, we had also stated, in this House, that the two important ministries were not supposed to be combined.  The ministry responsible for information and broadcasting is very important, especially, at a time when we are trying to enact the Freedom of Information Bill. The PF Government came into power on promises of job creation. We wondered how they could combine an important ministry responsible for labour with the one responsible for information and broadcasting if they wanted to create jobs. We have seen the chaos that is currently in this country because the hon. Minister concentrated on the portfolio function of information and broadcasting, not labour. In the process, we also saw the hon. Minister not consulting when doing certain things. Sometimes, he would state that he was consulting with the Zambia Federation of Employers (ZFE), the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) and other stakeholders but, on other instances, he would state that he did not need to consult anyone.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, even I, the hon. Member of Parliament of Kasenengwa, cannot run the constituency without the input of the community and the headmen. I am surprised to hear the hon. Minister state that he does not need to consult when putting in place regulations concerning the minimum wage. We have chaos in the country because of that. I hope that the hon. Minister responsible for the labour portfolio will be consulting stakeholders, such as the ZFE and the ZCTU, on how the ministry should be run.

Mr Speaker, as much as I support the creation of the Ministry of Tourism and Arts, I wonder where the money to run it will come from because the National Budget was already passed with no money allocated to the arts sector. I doubt if this PF Government took time to consider the Budget as they were creating the Ministry of Tourism and Arts. I know that they will tell me that they will use a supplementary budget to run the ministry. The only good thing that the PF Government has done is to continuously make mistakes. We also saw how the President removed the Secretary to the Cabinet from office and over-nominated …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kasenengwa, there is a Motion that you must not lose sight of. I know that it is tempting to go outside the vicinity of the Motion but, unfortunately, I cannot permit you to do that. You have to confine yourself to the Motion. We are not debating issues to do with the Secretary to the Cabinet or other issues irrelevant to the Motion. I also urge hon. Members to be calm as they debate because they are national leaders. This is a sober subject that needs to be approached soberly. There is a task that we have to discharge on behalf of the people of Zambia. Let us do so with appropriate temperaments. There is nothing personal about the creation and abolition of ministries. This is the Motion that has been presented. You can take your position on it, but you cannot wish it away.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, on the issue of the creation of ministries, I believe that we have been moving back and forth because this PF Government cannot do anything right. The only things that we have noticed under the PF Government’s leadership are mistakes and dismissals.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, this Government should appreciate the Opposition because it plays an oversight role. I believe that, if they had taken the advice given by the Opposition regarding the alignment of ministries, they could have avoided the many mistakes they have made. They should have taken time to analyse how the ministries that were left behind by the MMD were being run and, then, made their changes. Despite all this having happened, others were, yesterday, boasting that they know so much about governance. 

Laughter 

Ms Kalima: They should have consulted before aligning the ministries.   

Mr Speaker, experience is the best teacher. The MMD is very experienced. Being in power for twenty years was no joke. I want to urge this PF Government to consult with the MMD …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: … and learn from experienced former hon. Ministers, such as my sister, Hon. Dora Siliya, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Do not debate hon. Members. 
    
Ms Kalima: Even myself. 

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Do not debate hon. Members.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, they can even consult me. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: When I say that you can consult me, it does not mean that I want your job. I am not interested in getting a job. Learn to listen. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Finally, Sir, let me state that it is important for the Government to consult and listen. This back and forth movement will not work. I support the Motion because it will help the PF to do things the way the MMD did them. You are simply following our footsteps. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I will be very brief because most of the issues have already been raised by my colleagues. The last time I spoke on this issue, I brought a concept that this configuration of ministries is like something called diamaka, something that does not have a good taste.  We have been proved right over time. 

Hon. Government Member: What is diamaka?

Mr Hamududu: Diamaka means confusion. 

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: It refers to the confusion that is created by mixing things anyhow. 

Mr Speaker, since most of the issues have already been raised by my colleagues, and just to save time, I will deal with one aspect. 

Mr Speaker, these half-baked proposals, as admitted by His Honour the Vice-President, cannot just be approved like that by this House because of issues of accountability. 

Sir, the reconfiguration of these ministries goes with costs, in terms of stationary, re-arrangement of offices, vehicles, and disorientation of workers and co-operating partners.  Just this morning, I received a call from a colleague in South Africa asking about what the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Tourism was saying in Addis Ababa over the birthday of Mandela. I had to mention to him that he is no longer Minister of Foreign Affairs and Tourism. Already, that is confusion. This is the confusion that is coming with these changes. 

We have advised the PF to be holistic when dealing with such issues. There is no need to make changes halfway through a year. This is only a few months before the end of the year. What is the urgency? Approving these changes is tantamount to approving wasteful expenditure. Already, the oversight Committees at Parliament are confused. Even in this House, there is confusion. These changes are also transmitted to this House because we have to change the configuration to oversight Committees. The cost has been transmitted to the House. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: We are ever changing the composition and names of Committees because of the ever-changing names of ministries. This is not smart. Like Hon. Mwiimbu, Hon. Belemu and others, I will also not be part of those people who will approve this confusion. 

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, the other issue I am wondering about is how the books of accounts will be for this Government this year. When the Auditor-General does the audit, there will be serious issues. We will, probably, have the highest number of irregularities ever. This is because the accounting offices have been short-changed all the time. For example, in tourism, at one time, there was one controlling officer who was moved to Foreign Affairs and Tourism and, now, removed completely. There have been three accounting officers in one year. Who will account for these books? These are very serious issues. Someone will have to stand and pay a price for the wrongs of another Hon. Minister. 

Mr Speaker, we are very reluctant to approve this because we will be joining in approving wasteful expenditure that goes with these half-baked proposals and mumble-jumbled approach to managing the country. Therefore, we will not be part of this diamaka kind of approval.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I do not support this Motion and I want to advise this Government to take it back. Let them bring it back in January so that we reconfigure these ministries properly. Otherwise, you are just implanting confusion in the governance structures and running away from the core issues of service delivery. Where is the money that has to go with these abolitions, creations and re-creations coming from? We did not budget for these changes. Therefore, this House cannot be used to approve something that is tantamount to wasteful expenditure. We will not be part of that. We are rejecting this Motion of the PF, which is seeking to change ministries by creating, recreating, abolishing and re-establishing.  

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Sampa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the chance to debate the Motion presented by His Honour the Vice-President. I promise to be very brief and sober in my debate. 

Mr Speaker, to answer my colleague, the hon. Member for Monze Central, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, there is a Motion. You heard the debates, points and reasons. So, please, advance your reasons, presumably, in support, of course. Let us debate issues impersonally. 

Mr Sampa: I thank you for the guidance, Sir. 

Mr Speaker, we are asking that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning be renamed ‘Ministry of Finance’. Even though planning is a very important function of our ministry, there are other functions, such as monitoring, evaluation, budgeting, accounting, administration, Treasury management, payment of local debts, contracting of international debts, donor aid and others. Are these functions not important? Why should we only concentrate on planning? That was …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Deputy Minister is still on the Floor. Just listen to him. It is not a very difficult task to listen. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

You are being criticised for not listening. So, we have to demonstrate. 

The hon. Minister may proceed. 

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, the ministry has many functions, as cited by many speakers earlier. They have also been enshrined in the appendix of the Order Paper. However, should we be referring to the Ministry of Finance as the ‘Ministry of Finance and National Planning and Budget and Monitoring and Evaluation and Foreign Debt and Census’? 

Interruptions{mospagebreak}

Mr Sampa: That is my point. We do not want the mentioning of the name to be laborious. We want to call it simply Ministry of Finance, as they do in other countries. In South Africa and most European Union (EU) countries, it is simply called Ministry of Finance. 

Sir, when the PF came into power, it did not want to have ministries with nomenclatures that are long and difficult. This ministry was first called Ministry of Finance and Economic Development (MoFED). For some reason, the MMD Government, at the time, decided to change it. Even before that, when the MMD had just come into power, it was, actually, split. There was the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development, reporting to the Cabinet and headed by the late Dean Mung’omba, which was later changed and split. Should we continue changing by adding names? A new Government, in the next thirty years or so, might think what is important in that ministry is accounting and want to call it Ministry of Finance and Accounting. We do not want to call it many things. We just want to call it Ministry of Finance. All the functions of the ministry are equally important. No function is more important than others.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, this Government respects the need to plan a lot. The testimony is here. Before the elections, we planned and strategised. This is why we are on this side of the House. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: All that the MMD had was a plan and plenty of money, but no action. Where are they now? On your left, Sir.  

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: My colleagues, in the United Party for National Development (UPND), …

Mr Muntanga: Debate the Motion!

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Motion!

Mr Sampa: … are masters …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Deputy Minister, the planning should be in relation to the Motion, not electioneering.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: That is a different subject.

Interruptions

Mr Sampa: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker, this Government plans the management, accounting and finances of this country. We are not a Government like other people who have master plans, plans of plans, master economists, yet, year in and year out, there are no results to show for their plans. They plan so much that they even use the calculator to plan and then when they punch the ‘equals’ key to get results, the calculator goes dim and shows no results.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, when I was on the Floor, you guided very clearly that we should dwell on the Motion on the Floor of the House. The current debater is the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, who is supposed to be supporting the Motion. Is he in order to deviate and start talking about calculators, if he does not know a calculator himself?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, I think that I indicated that we should confine ourselves to the Motion. If we have exhausted our points, and I am addressing the whole House, I think, the most honourable thing to do is to sit down.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Speaker: That is the most honourable thing to do. We must manage the debate with efficiency.

Hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, you may continue, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: Thank you for the guidance, Sir. I am much obliged.

Mr Speaker, I support this Motion and, as a Government, we will plan to give Zambians proper wages. What we said, during the campaigns, we will implement.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Hon. Deputy Minister, I think you seem to be struggling to keep to the Motion.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You seem to be struggling. Are you through?

Interruptions

Mr Sampa: No, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Just wind up!

Mr Sampa: Thank you, Sir.

In conclusion, …

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer, hammer!

Laughter

Mr Sampa: … if we had a way of adding on to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, we would wish to call it the Ministry of Finance, Implementation and Results. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Awe!

Mr Sampa: This is because we believe in results and implementation. However, Sir, we intend to just keep it as Ministry of Finance.

Mr Speaker, this Motion needs to be supported. That said, let me say that the management of Governments evolves. There is change all the time. You cannot always stick to the original concept. Even the budget that is approved, here, if we stuck to it in the ministry and just sat back and did what was approved, this nation would not move. There are times that we have to be flexible. 

Sir, in answering the question on where the funds for these changes will come from, I wish to state that, in the case of the Ministry of Tourism and Arts, the funds are already there, except they are compounded with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So, we will split them. Where there is a need for a supplementary budget, we will bring it here for approval.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Awe!

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, with these few words, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Boma!

The Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Kambwili): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, I think that, from the debates that we have had, this afternoon, it is evident that our colleagues on the left support us, in principle. In doing so, they are also saying that we may have made mistakes and are reminding us that we should not continue making them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Walanda bwino!

Mr Kambwili: So, I find it extremely challenging that some hon. Members of the Opposition would say that they will not support this Motion. What would be better for the country? Is it to continue with the ministries when we feel that they are not operating as expected by the people of Zambia or for them to help us change these ministries so that we can move the country forward?

Hon. Opposition Members: Wakula nomba!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I think, by and large, what I would appeal to the hon. Members on your ‘right’ is that we should work together …

Mr Speaker: On my left.

Mr Kambwili: On your left, Mr Speaker. The people of Zambia have given us the mandate to run this country. In executing that mandate, we will do it in consultation with you by bringing these Motions to Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: The best we can do is not fight over these small political issues and move the country forward by supporting this Motion.

So, I want to urge our colleagues on the left to support this Motion so that we can move the country forward.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is a great pleasure and honour to present a Motion …

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

The Vice-President: … that is so passionately supported by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasenengwa. It is a rare privilege.

Laughter

The Vice-President: With these few words, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed and urge them to demonstrate their support for the Motion by saying ‘yes’.

I thank you, Sir.

Some Hon. Opposition Members left the Assembly Chamber.

Ms Kalima: Ine naci sapota Motion, nomba kuya.

Laughter

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE ON THE REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR ENDED 31ST DECEMBER, 2010

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General for the Financial Year ended 31st December, 2010, for the First Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 16th July, 2012.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, your Committee, in accordance with its terms of reference, considered the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts for the Financial Year Ended 31st December, 2010. The audit covered twenty-two ministries, provinces and spending agencies.

Sir, let me state, from the outset, that both the audit carried out by the Office of the Auditor-General and the work of the Public Accounts Committee are not a witch hunt targeted at any particular grouping. To the contrary, it should be viewed and interpreted as realisation of our parliamentary democracy, which entails that the Executive is held accountable for the way the public funds that are appropriated by the House are spent. It is in this regard that your Committee anticipates the full support of the House …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was moving a Motion that we adopt the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Auditor-General’s Report for 2010.

Sir, I would like to state, from the outset, that both the audit carried out …

Mr Mulusa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I am very particular about the need for the Cabinet to always be present, especially, when a report like this is being moved. Are the hon. Members …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is speaking.

Mr Mulusa: Are the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and his deputy in order to be absent when the report, which concerns the functions of their ministry, is being proposed for adoption? 

Sir, I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: Well, the ruling is predictable because I have addressed this subject before and I have said that it is important for both the left as well as the right to be present all the time, unless leave is obtained of the Speaker, or, indeed, in cases where there are other assignments issued or given either by the President or the Speaker’s office. I note that, on the right, in relation to your point of order, a number of hon. Cabinet Ministers who were present before business was suspended have not yet returned and I think that it is inappropriate to have this kind of affair. The business of the House, I have always stated, is very serious and we should treat it as such. I mentioned, earlier in the evening, that we are here seated as representatives of the people and it is important that we discharge our duties as expected by the electorate. We have a duty, a moral duty, to ensure that we discharge our mandates faithfully. So, I appreciate your concerns, hon. Member for Solwezi Central.

Mr V. Mwale: ... by the Office of the Auditor General and the work of the Public Accounts Committee are not a witch hunt targeted at any particular grouping. It should be viewed and interpreted as a realisation of our parliamentary democracy, which entails that the Executive is held accountable for the way it spends public funds that are appropriated by this House.

Sir, it is in this regard that your Committee anticipates the full support of this House. It is our obligation, as an oversight institution, to satisfy ourselves that systems are in place to ensure that there is accountability of public funds.

Mr Speaker, it is for this reason that your Committee considered audit reports, both external and internal, as vital management tools that should be used by the management of the audited entities to improve their performance. It is the considered view of your Committee that, from these audits, controlling officers of provinces, ministries and spending agencies ought to take corrective action to ensure better management and accountability in their respective institutions 

Sir, I will briefly comment on key financial irregularities covered in your Committee’s report, of which all hon. Members have copies. The first matter that caught your Committee’s attention is the ever-growing figure of excess expenditure.

Mr Speaker, your Committee is saddened that the figure for excess expenditure has continued to grow. For instance, excess expenditure increased to K814 billion, in 2010, from K249 billion, in 2008. Your Committee also notes that the number of ministries incurring excess expenditure has also been growing.

Sir, your Committee further observes that the main reason for this state of affairs is the failure by the controlling officers to take necessary action to regularise the expenditure during the financial year, in accordance with financial regulations. This should not be allowed to continue as it undermines the Budget process.

Mr Speaker, in this regard, your Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury, through the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who is absent, to strongly caution and constantly remind controlling officers who commit this omission so that it can be cured.

Sir, another issue that your Committee dealt with is the misappropriation of funds, which has continued to be reported in most ministries. Your Committee is saddened because the figure has grown from K70 million, in 2008, to K1 billion, in 2010. What worries your Committee most is the apparent reluctance by the controlling officers, in most cases, to report the matters to the investigative wings, instead, preferring to take administrative disciplinary action.

Mr Speaker, officers who engage in this vice should face the law without hesitation. It is for this reason that your Committee appeals to the Secretary to the Treasury and, indeed, all controlling officers to ensure that all cases of suspected misappropriation of funds in their respective ministries, provinces and spending agencies are promptly reported to the police for further investigations.

Sir, controlling officers failing to take prompt action should be sanctioned. Let me also touch on the issue of misapplication of funds. Your Committee is concerned that misapplication of funds has also continued in most ministries. What your Committee has painfully noted is that, in most cases, funds meant for poverty reduction and other capital projects have been varied and applied on expenses of a recurrent nature, which is not only in breach of financial regulations, but also has a negative effect on development efforts in the country.

Sir, let me give an illustration of just one ministry, which is the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, as it was called then. An amount of K1,083,379,401 was released for the Social Safety Net Programme to assist stranded persons and all those who were in need of help. However, out of the amount released, only K5 million was utilised for the programme. The balance of K1,078,379,401 was applied on unrelated activities, such as the purchase of fuel and outfits for youths and Labour Day and Women’s Day celebrations, among other activities.

Sir, the ministry was further allocated K1,305,993,131 for the removal of street children from the streets. However, only K264,348,168 was disbursed to the district street children committees, which were charged with the responsibility of implementing the project. The balance of K1,041,644,963 was utilised on activities not related to the programme, such as imprest, purchase of air tickets and workshops. Surely, this is unacceptable. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to take stringent measures to curb this practice. The Secretary to the Treasury is particularly urged to caution the ministries that are in the habit of varying funds without approval from the Treasury. 

Mr Speaker, the issue of unretired imprest has continued to bother your Committee, as it featured in almost all ministries. Your Committee further notes that amounts held in outstanding imprest have continued to grow. For example, while unretired imprest was only K21.4 billion in 2008, this figure had grown to K77.1 billion in 2010, which is unacceptable. Therefore, your Committee urges the Government to propose an amendment to the financial regulations so that, in an event of a holder failing to account or surrender imprest within forty-eight hours, as provided for in the financial regulations, the amount should be converted into a loan owed to the Government by the officer, which should attract interest at a prescribed punitive rate. Further, disciplinary action should be taken against supervisory officers who fail to ensure that imprest is retired as required by the regulations.

Mr Speaker, arising from the foreign tours your Committee undertook to Zambian missions in Zimbabwe and Tanzania and the interactions it had with the controlling officer from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, your Committee notes that most of the property in these missions is in a deplorable state due to lack of regular maintenance. Your Committee notes that this situation is as a result of inadequate funds from the Treasury for that purpose. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to come up with a comprehensive strategy to rehabilitate all the property that is in a poor state and, thereafter, ensure that funds are released on a regular basis for maintenance works. Your Committee is of the view that missions that have property that is in a very bad state should be considered for appropriation-in-aid so that they can be allowed to retain a percentage of the revenue that they raise from the lease of the property.

Mr Speaker, as I end, allow me to state that your Committee is of the view that the current rules, procedures and regulations are, by and large, adequate to protect public funds and there are necessary strict disciplinary penalties on those who flout them. However, what is lacking is the administrative will to ensure that they are adhered to. In a number of cases, we have seen half-hearted attempts to discipline erring officers days before controlling officers appear before your Committee, which is unacceptable. In this regard, I wish to make an earnest appeal to the new Government not to lose this opportunity to make a difference in accountability over public resources in our country. The nation is watching and waiting, and I can assure you that most officers are also observing to see if there will be any change in the way public resources are managed. If they see that it is business as usual, they will continue with their old ways of flouting financial regulations without any fear of sanctions. If that is allowed to happen, we should not be surprised when we see private mansions being built, instead of bridges, hospitals or schools. Indeed, we should not be surprised if we have more residential swimming pools, instead of dams or irrigation infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, let me conclude by thanking you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance rendered to your Committee during the session. Let me also thank the Secretary to the Treasury and all controlling officers, including their representatives, who appeared before your Committee for their co-operation. The deliberations of your Committee could not have been ably concluded without the assistance of the offices of the Auditor-General, Accountant-General and the Controller of Internal Audit.

Mr Speaker, lastly, but not, in way, the least, let me show gratitude to hon. members of your Committee for the professionalism and tenacity they displayed in carrying out their duties during the First Session of the Eleventh National Assembly. Their questioning of subjects was focused and resulted in the conclusions being presented to this House. I, therefore, recommend this report to the House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Milambo: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, in seconding the Motion, let me thank the mover for the able manner in which he has highlighted the issues that were deliberated upon by your Committee. He has already captured the views of your Committee on this Motion. I, therefore, shall only make a few comments on some issues that caught my attention and that of your Committee.

Mr Speaker, going through the Auditor-General’s Report for the financial year ending 31st December, 2010, and listening to the submissions of controlling officers in your Committee meetings, one outstanding feature is the failure by the controlling officers to produce accountable documents during the audit process. Surprisingly, most of these accountable documents do resurface when it is time for your Committee’s meetings. In fact, I have come to learn that the most heard statement in your Committee is:

“Documents that were missing have now been found and are available for verification.”

Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate that this practice has been taken lightly, over the years, and allowed to flourish. The danger is that these documents could be used to conceal a possible fraud and other malpractices as their genuineness is highly questionable. This habit amounts to breach of financial regulations and should not be allowed to go unpunished. Your Committee, therefore, strongly urges the Secretary to the Treasury to report all the controlling officers who fail to avail accountable documents for verification to the appointing authority at the time of audit so that they can be stopped from holding public office. May I further suggest that failure to produce accountable documents without justifiable reason should be treated as a red alert upon which the investigative wings can be sent in to investigate possible fraud. 

Mr Speaker, allow me to comment on the perennial problem of officers failing to retire imprest in 48 hours in accordance with the financial regulations. Your Committee is concerned that, instead of the figure of unretired imprest reducing, it is has continued to grow. For example, as the Chair has said, unretired imprest was K21.4 billion in 2008. This figure has grown to K77.1 billion in 2010.Your Committee finds this unacceptable. One of the reasons for this state of affairs is that, other than effecting recoveries, there is no other disciplinary action that can be taken due weaknesses in the financial regulations. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government, through the Secretary to the Treasury, to propose an amendment to the financial regulations so that, in the event of the holder failing to account for the imprest within 48 hours, the amount should be converted into a loan owed to the Government at a punitive interest rate. Further, disciplinary action should be taken against supervising officers who fail to ensure that imprest is retired. 

Mr Speaker, lastly, allow me to touch on the issue of poor management of stores in most Government institutions. Your Committee is dismayed that the value of stores items that are not being accounted for has continued to grow. For example, stores items costing K43.9 billion were not accounted for in 2010, compared with K20.8 billion in 2008. Your Committee finds this unacceptable in that, without receipts and disposal details, it is not possible to determine the quantity of stores items procured against those that have been issued out. It is, also, not possible to establish whether stores items were issued out to the right persons or organisations. Your Committee, therefore, strongly urges the Government to urgently come up with measures aimed at improving the management of stores in ministries and other institutions. 

Sir, in concluding, allow me, once more, to thank the mover of this Motion for the able manner in which he chaired the meetings of your Committee.

Sir, I beg to second.

The Minister for Tourism and Art (Mrs Masebo): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate this very important report, which I support. I want to state that, looking at the comments that have come up, I thought it was important for me to also make these very short comments. 

Sir, you will note that the problems that are in these parastatals are almost similar. These are unretired imprest, non-remittances of statutory obligations, lack of supporting payments, and the list goes on. I will give an example of my ministry, where there is an institution called the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA). The PF Government has taken over ZAWA, which has an outstanding obligation of K107 billion. You can imagine the challenge that the Government has, especially with this kind of negative report of the Auditor-General on the performance of parastatals in the country. As a Government, we really have a mammoth task. That is why, when I hear people say that the PF should emulate what the MMD Government was doing, I even ask myself if we are really serious, as a country. I am saying so because this speaks mountains of the maladministration …

Ms Imenda: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, the report is on Government ministries, not parastatals. Is the hon. Minister in order to debate something that is not on the Floor of the House?

I need your ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, please take that observation into account as you continue.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, the situation is the same in Government ministries, departments and statutory bodies. Therefore, what I am saying is, basically, that, if you look at the report that has been tabled, now, you will find that the problems and challenges seem to be the same in all Government structures. I am trying to remind the people that the PF Government has taken over a Government that had almost collapsed and where systems were not being obeyed. Simple regulations were never followed. Therefore, the public should not expect them to be corrected in one year. That is why the PF Government will continue with these changes even in officers. Sometimes, you will find that the whole department has been fired. This is in an effort to correct some of the weaknesses of the past administration.

Mr Speaker, it is easy to run a Government if the previous administration had systems in place. This is a very big task and it is not easy to deal with. As you can see, from the Auditor-General’s Report, there were no systems in the previous Government. Even when they had systems, they did not follow them. Even if the PF Government won the elections and is in control, now, the staff in these departments is still the same. Therefore, I would like the public to appreciate that this task that they have given the PF Government cannot be done in a day. It can only be easy if you find systems in place and clean members of staff, who know how to follow procedures are there. Somebody said that we should learn from previous hon. Ministers. How can you learn from them when some could not even follow tender procedures? How do you follow such an hon. Minister’s steps? 

Sir, I assure the House that this administration means well and will rise to the occasion. I also appeal to Zambians to be patient because the task ahead of us is not as easy as many may think. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Sampa): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank your Committee for its observations. We owe it to the people of Zambia to account for their finances diligently and will take all recommendations of your Committee and implement them urgently.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the impression created by the fact that many people are not willing to speak on this subject matter is that they support this Motion. If that is the case, I thank the two hon. Members who have spoken on this matter and beg that we adopt the report.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

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BILLS

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Civil Aviation Authority Bill, 2012

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to. 

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The House adjourned at 1901 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 20th July, 2012.