Thursday, 28^th July, 2022

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR FUBE, HON. MEMBER FOR CHILUBI, ON THE VICE-PRESIDENT, ON THE DOCUMENTARIES RUNNING ON PRIME TELEVISION AND ZNBC TELEVISION RAISING EMOTIONS IN THE NATION

Mr Fube (Chilubi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Fube: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving the people of Chilubi the opportunity to raise a matter of public importance through Standing Order 134.

Madam Speaker, the people of Chilubi have noticed, with sadness, the documentaries that are running on Prime Television as well as our national broadcaster, the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), to the effect that such documentaries can only be a result of collective sadism. The documentaries are dividing the nation.

Madam Speaker, I want to draw your attention to Article 8 of the Constitution –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Without interrupting you, at whom are you directing that matter of urgent public importance?

Mr Fube: The Vice-President, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: That is how you should have started, hon. Member.

Mr Fube: Thank you very much for the guidance. I oblige.

Madam Speaker: Proceed, but just bear in mind that we do not have the luxury of time; so summarise.

Mr Fube: Yes, Madam Speaker. I will be concluding soon.

I am directing the matter of urgent public importance at the Vice-President, who in this case is the Leader of Government Business in the House, and, I think, represents the Head of State in the House.

Madam Speaker, I want to bring to your attention the values and principles in the 2016 Constitution. Article 8(b) talks about patriotism and national unity. The preamble of the same 2016 Constitution talks about Zambia being unitary State. The people of Chilubi fear that all of us who are politicians, whether we started our politics in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) era or the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and the like, have suffered one affliction or another.

The documentaries I am referring to, Madam Speaker, seem to be dividing the nation. I am rising on this matter of urgent public importance because I have been receiving many concerns, even from my own constituents, that such documentaries are only helping to raise emotions. The President, in his inaugural speech promoted unity. He came to this House and promoted unity. Such documentaries which incite vengeance and many other factors only help to fuel emotions in the nation.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to state that countries that have gone into conflict have not started with physical violence. Countries that have gone into conflict have started by provoking and whipping up people’s emotions through the media. In this case, documentaries like the ones running on ZNBC Television and Prime Television, which are called “paid for” documentaries, – we know they are not even paid for – are only whipping up publice emotional reactions.

Madam Speaker, in the interest of time, I would like to submit that such are dividing the nation in all proportions.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chilubi, do you have those documentaries you are talking about to lay on the Table of the House? I am not aware of them. I have not seen any documentaries you are referring to.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, you can see the reaction from the – is it the left or the right? Whatever the case, these are documentaries that our friends, possibly, have sponsored ...

Interruptions

Mr Fube: ... to run on –

Madam Speaker: Order, order!

Hon. Member for Chilubi, you have raised your matter of urgent public importance, but from listening, – you may resume your seat.

Mr Fube resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: Listening to what you have stated, the issue that you have raised does not qualify to be raised under Standing Order 134 and 135. You also have not tendered any documentary evidence or any evidence at all before this honourable House about those documentaries which you know about. I have not seen them myself; so it is difficult for me to make a ruling on something that I am not aware of. If you really are concerned about those documentaries, why not do a complaint? Why not write a question? Maybe it is better you write a question because, definitely, that issue you are raising might be common knowledge to you and a few other hon. Members, but it is not common knowledge to most people, including myself.

Thank you.

MR KAPYANGA, HON. MEMBER FOR MPIKA, ON MR MWIIMBU, HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON CRIMINAL ACTIVITY IN TAZARA COMPOUND IN MPIKA

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Please, as we do this, let us bear in mind – you may wait, hon. Member for Mpika.

Mr Kapyanga resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: Let us bear in mind that yesterday, we did not go through the Order Paper completely, and we are supposed to adjourn tomorrow. We still have a lot of work to do. So, please, let us manage our time.

Hon. Member for Mpika, please, be precise and to the point.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. I rise on a matter of urgent public importance pursuant to Standing Order 134, directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, in my constituency, there is an area called the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA), a township where TAZARA workers and retirees live. Most TAZARA retirees have not been paid their terminal benefits and, as a result, some of their children have resorted to criminal activities because of the economic hardships that they are going through.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, we had a case of child kidnapping. Some of these children have started forming criminal gangs which are terrorising people at night. They are also resorting to what they are calling a black covenant amongst themselves. This is threatening the security not only of the TAZARA area, but also of Mpika District as a whole.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I seek your indulgence.

Madam Speaker: Thank you hon. Member for Mpika. Definitely, that issue that you are raising requires the engagement of the relevant authority. What you can do is engage the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. Even you, as an hon. Member of Parliament, have a role to play in your community to engage and give advice. Being an hon. Member of Parliament does not mean you just coming here and debating; it also means taking responsibility in the Community by engaging relevant authorities so that you can improve the well-being of the community that you represent.

So, that matter does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. I am turning it upon you, hon. Member, to take steps. When those steps fail, then you can come back to the House to say, ‘I have taken steps, but I have not had any co-operation or assistance from relevant authorities. Can the House do something about it?’ That is how we should operate.

Thank you.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

THE ALLEGED ATTACK ON MR J. MALANJI BY SUSPECTED UNITED PARTY FOR NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT CADRES AT BULANGILILO CLINIC IN KWACHA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

The Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma) (on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu)): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to give a ministerial statement on the matter of urgent public importance raised by Hon. G. Mwila, Member of Parliament for Mufulira Constituency, regarding the alleged attack on Hon. Joseph Malanji, Member of Parliament for Kwacha Constituency, by suspected United Party for National Development (UPND) cadres at Bulangalilo Clinic in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, brief facts are that on Tuesday, 19^th July, 2022, Riverside Police Station received a report of malicious damage to property, which occurred on Tuesday, 19^th July, 2022, around 14:40 hours at Bulangalilo Clinic in Kitwe District. The complainant in the matter indicated that whilst he was at Bulangalilo Clinic –

Hon. Members: Bulangililo.

Mr Lufuma: Alright, whatever. I thank you.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: The complainant in the matter indicated that whilst he was at Bulangililo Clinic, in the company of Patriotic Front (PF) Party officials, waiting for the Kwacha Constituency Member of Parliament, Hon. J. Malanji, who was expected to donate furniture at the clinic, his beige Toyota Land Cruiser bearing registration No. ABL 6845 was damaged by suspected UPND members, allegedly using stones and some bottles. The damage to the car included broken front and rear wind screens, both valued at K1,900.

Madam Speaker, on the same date, Riverside Police Station received another report of malicious damage to property which occurred on Tuesday, 19^th July, 2022, around 14:40 hours at the same clinic in Kitwe District from the acting sister in-charge. She reported on behalf of the Ministry of Health that suspected UPND cadres went to the clinic where PF members had gathered waiting for Kwacha Member of Parliament, Hon. J. Malanji. The Member of Parliament was scheduled to visit the clinic to donate some furniture for the newly built maternity ward at the clinic.

Madam Speaker, the suspected UPND members attacked the PF members with stones and bottles causing damage to one small staff toilet window and a dent on a black Toyota Harrier motor vehicle for the sister in-charge. The cost of the damage has not been established.

Madam Speaker, the police immediately instituted investigations in the alleged cases of malicious damage to property and, on 21^st July, 2022, arrested three suspects, all of whom are UPND party members in Kitwe. In addition, the police impounded a Toyota Noah motor vehicle bearing registration No. ACV 1908, which was allegedly used by the suspects. The three suspects have since been charged and released on Police Bond. They will appear in court on 29^th July, 2022.

Madam Speaker, let me affirm to this August House that the New Dawn Government will not be kind to any form of criminal activities, violence and malicious damage to property or any other criminal activities which should be condemned by all peace loving Zambians. The New Dawn Administration abhors violence, regardless of where the perpetrator is affiliated. The Government is committed to ensuring that the people of Zambia fully enjoy their civil rights and liberties.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that statement which actually affirms what was earlier an allegation that the people who went to cause confusion were members of the United Party for National Development (UPND). It is very clear that the Police have moved in –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, ask a point of clarification; let us not start debating. Time is of essence here. I have a list of other hon. Members who also want to ask questions. I am appealing to you, hon. Members, to be precise and to the point.

You may proceed.

Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, I am much obliged. It is very clear that the police have moved in and are instituting the law towards those culprits.

Madam Speaker, being members of the UPND, actually holding office within the party structures, is the party applying disciplinary action on them so that it works as a deterrent to other would be offenders in similar circumstances?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I assure the hon. Member that as the Government, and I am speaking as the Government and Acting Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and –

Hon. Member: Not the Secretary-General.

Mr Lufuma: Not the Secretary-General; he is right. As such, I assure the hon. Member that we have taken enough steps, as a responsible Government. We have even agreed that there is a wrong and that despite the fact that they are members of the UPND, if they broke the law, they are on their own. That is what the President of Zambia has said. So, those people are on their own regardless of whether they are members of the UPND. They will face the law and the law will run its course. As for what the party has done, that is another issue.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Member: Not filya imwe mwale chita.

Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda (Lupososhi): Madam Speaker, let me thank the Acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security for being so sincere about the incidence that happened in Kwacha Constituency. That is the way the Government should operate.

Madam Speaker, he has stated that the perpetrators are confirmed United Party for National Development (UPND) cadres and hold UPND party structure positions. What offence has the hon. Minister charged these confirmed UPND party structure cadres?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lupososhi Constituency, had you listened, that question was similar to the one hon. Member for Mufulira asked. So, we do not want to repeat.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, my question has already been taken care of. However, the only thing I would like to do is to commend the police for swiftly taking that action. I hope that will be a warning to other political parties.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Madam Speaker, I just want to salute the hon. Minister and the police on the action that they took. We are looking forward to ensuring that perpetrators of crimes of this nature are brought to book.

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Speaker, that is what an hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is expected to do. The hon. Minister is actually a rare breath of fresh air amongst them all in the Government. It is only that he is in bad company.

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, what steps is the Government taking to communicate to its general membership that they are now in the Government and their old habits should end in the Opposition where they came from and that they must also denounce the root of all the violence that United Party for National Development (UPND) members have been committing ...

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Chilangwa:... which is the ‘Mapatizya Formula’. When is he intending to denounce the Mapatizya Formula which is the bedrock of their violence?

Madam Speaker: Such questions always attract like answers. So, since it has been asked, the hon. Acting Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security may proceed to answer.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, thank you very much.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for that question which, I must say, I did not expect from hon. Members on the left who perpetrated violence.

Mr Kambita: Himself.

Mr Lufuma: They are on record, as the Patriotic Front (PF) and not him –

Hon. Government Members: Even him.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, they are on record, as the PF, perpetrating violence. They are the champions. They have killed, maimed –

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubika: They are even facing criminal charges.

Mr Lufuma: It is embarrassing and shameful that the PF, whose members are facing criminal charges, can stand up on the Floor of Parliament and claim that we, as the UPND, are perpetrators of violence. They should first remove the log that is in their eyes before they remove the spec that is in the UPND’s.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, I had indicated that the type of question that you ask will attract a specific answer. I think let us move forward. Let us move forward and forget –

Interjections

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us forget the past. What we are trying to do is build the future. Of course, as we build the future, we have to look back and see what happened. I will give you an example of a motor vehicle. With a motor vehicle, what do you have in front? A huge window screen, is that not so? That is so you can have a clear view of where you are going and I am hoping that hon. Members on the right side has a clear view of where they are going. However, as you drive, you do not forget where you came from. Conversely, the review mirror is a small thing just so that you look back and see where you are coming from, maybe you could have injured somebody or done something as you were driving.

So, let us not go towards there because it is just going to cause acrimony and unnecessary points of order. We do not have time to start fighting political battles here. We are one. There is only one Zambia for all of us and the people we represent want us to make sure that we represent them and bring development to the constituencies. So, let not us not go towards those questions.

Hon. Member for Lupososhi, maybe I cut you, you can ask your question.

Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda: Madam Speaker, my question was: What offence have the police charged the confirmed UPND perpetrators that attacked Hon. Malanji? I am asking about the offence which the police has charged them and not what the party is charging them. It is the offence which the police charged them with because they broke the law.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question, although, in my statement on the Floor of Parliament in front of the Table, I clearly mentioned and I will read it: “The three suspects have since been charged ...”, and who charges? It is the police. “... and released on police bond. They will appear in court on 29^th July, 2022, for malicious damage to property.” It was clearly mentioned.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us learn to pay attention when a statement is being read. Otherwise, we will be going back and forth.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you so much. I will start by riding on the counsel that you provided. These are matters that do not require blame games. We all know that this is a perennial problem and requires –

Interjections

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I think you should also pay attention to what our hon. Colleagues on the front bench, who are hon. Ministers, are doing. They are running commentaries when we trying to debate. The House is required to be in order all the time on both sides.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I have taken note. I am listening. When I hear something, I always advise, unless I do not get it.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I thank you.

I was saying I was going to ride on the counsel that you provided that this country is one Zambia for all of us. We all have fundamental rights to belong to this country and when there are challenges, it is us leaders to find solutions. This is a perennial problem, I did say. I have said in the past and I will repeat that we need concerted efforts because this violence begets violence and when it gets out of hand, no one is spared.

Madam Speaker, the facility which was attacked is a Government facility. The hon. Minister did state that the sister-in-charge had her motor vehicle damaged. What is the Government doing to ensure and guarantee the safety of the workers and the people that go to seek medical attention from that facility where Hon. Malanji was to donate some furniture?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu for that question. I do not expect the three suspects or their colleagues to go back there because they will be nabbed. They know they will be nabbed. Our police are now very professional and alert and, as such, if and when incidences of criminality occur, perpetrators will be nabbed. I must assure the hon. Member of Parliament that our police are now put on alert and will be making necessary patrols to ensure the safety of all citizens.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: When you hear the same questions going round and round, it is time to move on. I know we have not exhausted the time. Before we make progress, let me make an announcement.

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

EXTENSION OF DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSIONS ON STANDING ORDERS

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Tuesday, 19^th July, 2022, hon. Members were requested to make submissions to the Office of the Clerk for purposes of revising the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021. The deadline for the receipt of the submissions was Friday, 29^th July, 2022.

Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that my office received a request for an extension of the period for the receipt of submissions. In this regard, I wish to inform the House that the period for submissions has been extended by seven days. Therefore, the new deadline is Friday, 5^th August, 2022.

I thank you.

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MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE ON THE REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL ON THE ACCOUNTS OF THE REPUBLIC FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR ENDED 31^ST DECEMBER, 2020

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of the Republic for the Financial Year Ended 31^st December, 2020, for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Monday, 25^th July, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr J. Daka (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Speaker, your Committee, in line with its terms of reference, considered the aforesaid report of the Auditor-General on the accounts of the republic and now presents the report on its work.

Madam Speaker, at this point, allow me to highlight some of the issues which your Committee came across when considering the report. I am confident that hon. Members have had time to read the report despite it being voluminous. Therefore, in my speech, I will only highlight the salient issues.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development was cited for failure to collect outstanding area charges from mineral right holders amounting to K7,537,314 and failure to maintain a debtor’s age analysis. Although the controlling officer submitted that out of the reported outstanding area charges, K5,409,615 had been cleared, leaving a balance of K2,127,693. Your Committee bemoans the laissez faire attitude adopted by the ministry in collecting area charges from mineral right holders.

Your Committee also finds it unacceptable that the ministry was not maintaining a debtor’s age analysis and, therefore, urges the controlling officer to ensure that the remaining balance is collected without delay and the debtor’s age analysis is maintained at all times, for easy tracking of customers’ debt.

Madam Speaker, another issue raised in the Auditor-General’s report related to wasteful expenditure on the construction of the Kasaba Bay Runway by the then Ministry of Transport and Communications. In response, the controlling officer submitted that the accumulation of the K152,989,989 was as a result of costs incurred by the contractor during the period that the Government put the project on hold, on recommendation from the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC).

Madam Speaker, your Committee bemoans the poor provisions in the contract for the consultancy services at the Kasaba Bay Runway. Your Committee observes that the contract was exploitative and biased against the Government. Your Committee, therefore, urges the controlling officer to ensure that the consultancy services are re-tendered and new contracts entered into so that exploitative clauses, such as interest charges, are removed.

Madam Speaker, your Committee was also confronted with the failure to complete various projects relating to construction of office blocks, police stations, post offices, houses and associated external works in newly created districts under the then Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development. The major irregularity relates to the failure to pay contractors the total amount of K44,869,529.

In response, the controlling officers submitted that the main reason for the non-payment of contractors was inadequate funding. As the House is already aware, due to inadequate funding, the Government, in 2018, directed all spending agencies to focus on paying contractors whose projects were at 80 per cent completion level.

Madam Speaker, the Committee finds the halting of projects unfortunate and urges controlling officers to ensure that the Secretary to the Treasury is engaged so that the requisite funding to complete projects which are still outstanding is sourced and allocated to the completion of projects.

Madam, with regard to the then Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development, the Committee came across another issue of wasteful expenditure where the ministry paid K29,655,280 to Higer Buses Limited on behalf of the Public and Private Bus Drivers Association of Zambia. You may wish to know that on 1^st March, 2016, the then Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development entered into a purchase agreement with the Public and Private Bus Drivers Association of Zambia and Higer Bus Zambia Limited for the purchase of twenty-five buses at a cost of K55 million, equivalent to US$5,272,000.

Some of the terms of the agreement required that the aforesaid association pays K33 million, which is US$3,272,200, to Higer Bus Zambia Limited over a period of thirty-six months and was responsible for the routine maintenance and insurance of the buses. However, the ministry before the end of the contract term seized the buses from the association on account of violation of the agreed terms and conditions. Therefore, the ministry unilaterally decided to inherit the debt owed to Higer Buses Limited.

In this regard, your Committee bemoans the lack of due care by the ministry in the administration of the Higher Bus Loan Empowerment Project. Your Committee, therefore, urges the controlling officer to report the officers involved in the fraudulent dealings to relevant investigative wings for further investigations.

Your Committee also urges the controlling officer to be professional and ensure that all relevant procedures are followed in the utilisation of public resources in line with the provisions of the Public Finance Management Act No.1 of 2018.

Madam Speaker, your Committee undertook a tour of selected Zambian foreign missions abroad. The missions visited were those funded through a mortgage financing facility to construct, rehabilitate and purchase properties in missions abroad, as the case maybe.

Madam Speaker, in Addis Ababa, Abuja, Brussels, Geneva, New York and Washington DC, your Committee found glaring irregularities with regard to contracts management, procurement procedures and application of financial regulations. In this regard, your Committee recommends the following:

    (a) institute disciplinary action against officers in missions violating financial regulation with impunity; and

    (b) enhance procurement and contract management processes in the missions.

In conclusion, I wish to thank all the stakeholders who participated in the production of your Committee report. I also wish to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the valuable services rendered to the Committee.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr J. Daka: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to second this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee for the able manner in which he moved the Motion.

Madam Speaker, let me now highlight a few issues that caught my attention in this very important report. My debate will be anchored on pages 274 and 322. On page 274 is where there is a questionable debt swap and on page 322 is just basically project management and administration issues.

Madam Speaker, under the Ministry of Agriculture, your Committee came across an issue of a questionable debt swap involving 80,000 metric tonnes of Urea fertiliser. It was reported by the Auditor-General that Urea fertiliser procured at a cost of almost K900 million by the Government was swapped with a total debt of K160 million. This debt was against Nyombo and Neria Investments Ltd.

Your Committee found the transaction highly questionable as it was not clear how the figures were arrived at and, therefore, in the absence of a clear explanation on this debt swap and the fact that the same involved payment of interest made it even more difficult for the Committee to appreciate how transparent the transaction was.

In this regard, your Committee urges the controlling officer to report the matter to the relevant investigative wings for further investigations.

Madam Speaker, it is further disgusting to note that the very companies that are in question here, to our knowledge as a Committee, have also been shortlisted under the current tender which is running for the procurement of the same goods and services.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also took a tour of a number of infrastructure developments locally. Your Committee finds it very regrettable that the construction of the Gweembe District Hospital, Phase II, which included a maternity, theatre and service block, remained uncompleted since 2015, thereby depriving the people of Gwembe District the much needed health services. Your Committee also observes with concern the quality of works done on the houses and other buildings already completed and in use.

Madam Speaker, when we visited this facility, we noticed that the engineers that designed it utilised what is called a generic design. A generic design is where you uplift a design which is meant for one place and replicate it in a different area. In engineering, such type of vices do not work because the environment where that particular design was meant to be done or to resolve a bottleneck is not necessarily the same as the environment in which it has been replicated. That was the special case of Gwembe.

Madam Speaker, Gwembe is a very special place. The soils are quite special. It is a known fact that in Gwembe, there are earth movements. As such, engineers need to take into account this specific and very important matter for this area.

When we visited this site, we found that the buildings had what we would call evidence of structural failures. The facilities or the building that we found had cracks all over and the contractor tried to remedy this situation. Little did he know that those were as a result of a weak foundation material on which these buildings were constructed.

Madam Speaker, in view of the above, the Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury to take keen interest in the matter and ensure that the requisite funding is mobilised and have the pending works completed without further delay.

Madam Speaker, the other matter that we found as we were touring these local sites was that the Government had liquidated the debt on most of them. However, contractors had demobilised and were not willing to go back to do the remaining scope of work because during the normal construction period, the Government delayed to honour most of its payments. The contractors could not remobilise because they wanted assurance that no further delays would come their way as they embarked on the new works. So, most of them were not even interested to go back despite the fact that they were paid fully.

Similarly, the Kalomo District Hospital, Phase II, which includes a maternity, a theatre and houses, remained uncompleted as well since 2014.

Madam Speaker, in view of the foregoing, the Committee urges the controlling officer to evaluate the project and identify the remaining works with a view of re-tendering to complete the remaining works. The Committee further urges the Secretary to the Treasury to take keen interest in the matter and ensure that the requisite funding is mobilised and have the pending works completed without any further delay.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to thank all hon. Members of your Committee for the opportunity that was given to me to second this Motion

Madam Speaker, I beg to second.

Madam Speaker: As we debate, let us make sure that we avoid being repetitive. We also do not have to exhaust 8 minutes. You may be aware that we have a lot of work on our hands which we need to go through tonight. So, I am appealing to hon. Members not to be repetitive and not to talk for 8 minutes. Further, as you debate, please bring new ideas; do not repeat what is already in the report.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to debate the Motion that was ably moved by the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa, who is the Chairperson for your Committee on Public Accounts, and seconded by another hon. Member, the hon. Member for Chadiza, who is also a Member of that Committee.

Madam Speaker, let me begin by putting things into context. The report we are debating here is talking about the report of the Auditor-General which was compiled on the Accounts of the republic for the year ended 31^st December, 2020. These are the accounts of the republic, meaning that line ministries and foreign missions are included in there. It is actually accounts that involve big sums of money of the republic since monies are spent in those functions of the Government.

Madam Speaker, as you may be aware, when the control environment is tampered with, you have such situations, and usually, the perpetrators of such are individuals that are in leadership. I will guide the House in understanding how the control environment exists.

Madam Speaker, indicators of a strong control environment include segregation of duties when transactions are being generated. There must be someone else deciding the need and another doing all the processes of procurement. The yardsticks are the laws that already exist through the Public Procurement Act and the Public Finance Management Act No. 1 of 2018. All these are existing yardsticks which we are supposed to use for controlling and guiding the processing of transactions. However, where there are challenges in terms of segregation of duties; where the same person who is the policy holder also makes decisions and/or verbally instructs technocrats on what to do, then we have a problem.

Madam Speaker, that is what was happening during that period. That is the reason you are seeing so many of these flaws in the financials of the republic.

Madam Speaker, when management is just appointed at will, based on patriotism towards a party and the like, it is already an indicator of weak internal controls.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, my point of order is premised on Standing Order 65, which requires a person tendering debate to be factual. I have become concerned purely because I am first a member of the Patriotic Front (PF) and, secondly, a representative of the people of Zambia via the mandate from the people of Lunte.

Madam Speaker, I sat here listening intently to the discourse being delivered by my hon. Colleague from Zambezi East. He has made serious claims that what was happening during the period under review was that policy holders or a policy holder was giving verbal instructions to people and this is why we see all these financial irregularities.

Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleague has not named that policy holder. As a matter of fact, he has not laid anything on your Table to demonstrate that he actually understands that this is exactly what was happening.

Is the hon. Member in order to be making such insinuations simply because he is a Member of the United Party for National Development (UPND)?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: As we debate here, we are not debating on party lines. So, let us avoid saying we are Patriotic Front (PF) or United Party for National Development (UPND). What is being debated here is the report of the Public Accounts Committee on the report of the Auditor- General. So, to avoid being perceived to be debating without facts, it is better that we refer to the report as we debate so that we remain in line with the Standing Orders. Of course, when an hon. Member stands and makes allegations he/she has to show proof to support what he/she is saying in line with Standing Order 65, which is very popular these days.

So, hon. Member for Zambezi East, as you debate, please, remain factual and do not refer to instances that you have no evidence to tender before this honourable House.

You may proceed as guided.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for that guidance.

Madam Speaker, the report of the Auditor-General is in the public domain. The main word in that report is “controls”; weak internal controls and this is what I am trying to explain here so that we all understand.

Hon. Government Member: Correct!

Mr Kambita: The hon. Member who just stood on a point of order understands what I mean here because he is from that profession.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us not debate each other.

Mr Kambita: I am simply explaining indicators of weak internal controls. I talked about the separation of duties. When that is non- existent, then you have one person doing the same thing.

Madam Speaker, in the management of an institution or organisation, the structure itself is another internal control. We heard how there were challenges in foreign missions on procurement systems. If, for instance, a person not qualified for the job is sent in foreign mission to manage procurement, how do we expect things that are well laid in our statutes to be followed?

Madam, these are the issues I am putting across here, but, of course, I am mixing with some politics. Hon. Members must listen to the actual substance of my debate because it is coming from a well-informed point of view. I am trying to explain to them so that they understand …

Mr Mabeta: Teach them!

Mr Kambita: … the control environment that existed that time.

Madam Speaker, contracts have been flouted here. We have a situation where some projects were unfinished because payments were not passing, meaning that there was no correlation between the plans to have those projects done and the Treasury that would eventually finance them. That is why we have several projects stalled. We ended up having a situation where a pronouncement was made by the hon. Minister of the then Ministry of Finance and National Development who came to this House and said that due to austerity measures, we should only concentrate on projects that are at 80 per cent. How did we arrive at that?

Mr Nkombo: Oshama, oshama!

Mr Kambita: It is because of failure to manage these things in an orderly way.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Now, compare it to the way the New Dawn is doing things. I am just from reviewing the first and the second quarter …

Interruptions

Mr Kambita: …performance of the Budget. Almost each and every Government institution has been financed according to plan and according to what we appropriated in this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: How do you expect some projects not to be completed when they have been financed?

Hon. Government Members: Bauze!

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, the problem we have at the moment is that spending agencies are now failing to spend because it is a problem to follow the rules that are set. Some of them are used to wantonly mismanaging funds. So, now that they have to follow rules the way they are set, it has become a problem.

Mr Kambita: The treasury is financing Government institutions. Tell me which Government institution has not received money according to the Budget ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: ... in the one year or is it half of the year that has passed? None. That is a clear demonstration of a clearly focused Government and people must learn from this. It is the reason I have to debate this way. We do not expect these problems we are seeing in that report in the future.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us not see ourselves in the debate. Let us divorce ourselves from the debate. That way, we will not be able to debate objectionably.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I think I am obliged, as a responsible Parliamentarian, because your House is a House of order and a House of record. When an hon. Member is trying to mislead people, it is, I think, my obligation to try and correct the impression.

Madam Speaker: What is the point of order?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, Standing Order 65. Yesterday, in this House, we were considering a Supplementary Budget. Yesterday; it was not any other day, but yesterday. How could my hon. Colleague say that every institution has been funded according to the Budget we appropriated when, just yesterday, we were considering K22 billion worth of a Supplementary Budget?

Is he in order, to stand here and mislead the nation in the fashion he is doing? I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Since the Budget is still being discussed, of course, it is clear that the funds were not sufficient. I think we can leave that for when we debate the Budget. Let us not mix this debate with the one on the Budget. Otherwise, we will get lost in the debate.

So, hon. Member for Zambezi East, please, the information that you have presented before this honourable House should be factual. I do not know if you have any evidence to show that Ministries were sufficiently funded which you can lay on the table of the House.

Interruptions

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for that guidance and for giving me an opportunity to respond. I am looking at the performance of the Budget in the past two quarters, and I qualified my statement. If there is any Government institution that is complaining about financing, I am yet to know.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Each and every Government institution has been financed according to the way we appropriated in this House and that was my line of debate.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambita: Thank you very much. That includes the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: ... which they are failing to utilise.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambita: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order hon. Members!

I do not want to drift away from my business. Let us come back to the business of the House.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chienge, we do not have a lot of time. You cannot have a point of order on another point of order.

May the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu debate.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Thank you so much, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to make a few comments on the Motion to adopt the report of the Public Accounts Committee, ably moved by the Chairperson and seconded by the Vice-Chairperson of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, indeed, the irregularities that have been highlighted in the report ...

Rev. Given Katuta: On a point of order.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chienge!

I said the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu is going to debate. So, let us allow the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu to debate. We do not have the luxury of time. We have to close tomorrow and finish all the business on the Order Paper. Yesterday, we did not do much and I intend to leave this Motion soon after two or three debates. So, please, do not derail me from my target.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. I was just saying that the irregularities that have been cited in these reports are a matter for concern. They just point to the failure by the people who are mandated to ensure that public resources are channelled and spent on the appropriated lines.

Madam Speaker, we had an opportunity to engage the Auditor-General this morning and his lamentations are something we, should try and build on, as an institution which is mandated to offer oversight functions on the Executive.

Madam Speaker, we have enough laws. As we heard from the Auditor-General, we have the Financial Management Act which was enacted in 2018 to try and ensure that those who are responsible for dispensing, spending and procuring also operate within the provisions of the law. What was interesting today, as we heard from the Auditor-General, is that there are these working arrangements between the Office of the Auditor-General and Law Enforcement Agencies. There are Memoranda of Understanding (MOUs) that have been signed to ensure that those who are found to be in breach are made to account.

Madam Speaker, it is rare – even for these hon. Colleagues of ours who have been appointed as policy makers and hon. Ministers, it is not their role to have anything to do with the day to day running of the institutions they are overseeing. That is why we have controlling officers. Controlling officers are mandated to ensure that all the resources that we appropriate in this august House are put to proper use. So, this myth that someone gives instructions whether verbally or otherwise does not work because the one who has come to be accountable is well known. So, you must be foolish as a controlling officer ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: ... to accept verbal instructions when you know –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I am on the use of the word ‘foolish’; maybe you can find a –

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, that one is permissible.

Hon. Member: Hmmm.

Mr Kampyongo: It is permissible.

What I am just trying to say is that if you are a professional who knows what your mandate is in the ministry whether as an accountant or a Permanent Secretary (PS), there is no way an hon. Minister can give you verbal instructions and you go and execute them because, at the end of the day, you are the one who is going to be accountable.

For my hon. Colleagues here, the first lesson they got when they were appointed as hon. Ministers was to understand the guidelines:What is your mandate? How far do you go? So, I just want to also make it clear from experience that the people who are mandated to ensure that resources that we appropriate in this august House are very well learned. The Secretary to the Treasury does assign controlling officers in all spending agencies who are supposed to take care of the resources that are appropriated. That is why –

Mr Michelo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah! You refused points of order!

Madam Speaker: What is the point of order? Actually, hon. Member for Bweengwa, what I had said when the hon. Member for Chienge wanted to rise on a point of order is that we do not have much time. So, let us restrain ourselves from raising points of order. I am appealing to you, please.

Mr Michelo: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: What is the point of procedure?

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, you guided the hon. Member of Parliament that the word ‘foolish’ is not parliamentary. If you go through the Standing Orders, you will find that the word ‘foolish’ is not allowed on the Floor of this House.

Rev. Katuta: Which Standing Order?

Mr Michelo: You can consult for yourself, hon. Member, but what I know is that the word foolish is unparliamentary.

Hon. Opposition Members: Which Standing Order?

Mr Michelo: Is the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu in order to keep on using the word and arguing with you that the word is permissible when you guided that he withdraws it? I need your guidance.

Madam Speaker: I had indicated that the use of the word ‘foolish’ was unparliamentary, but the hon. Member said that it was allowed. For the sake of progress, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, instead of using ‘foolish’, let us use ‘irresponsible’. Remember, hon. Members, this report is referring to the financial year 2020. So, I do not know why people are putting themselves in this report, unless they were there when these things were happening. Let us make progress, please.

Hon. Government Members: He was there!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam, at least, I have (inaudible) distracting me. I have the Standing Orders booklet. I move with it and I understand it from page one to the last. So, he should have cited which Standing Order I had breached. Anyway, that aside, we have made progress.

Madam Speaker: Yes, let us make progress.

Mr Kampyongo: All I was saying was that the Secretary to the Treasury assigns people to be controlling officers in all Government institutions, including spending agencies, whose responsibility it is to make sure that all the resources we appropriate from this institution are accounted for. As I said, they cannot pass the buck because when the Auditor-General goes to look at how funds have been spent, the point of call is these people who are mandated, the controlling officers. These people are accountable for the decisions that are made.

Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate that we should be seeing the same irregularities when the laws are very clear. So, to try and pass the buck to anyone else, whether past or current, does not help. It is very important that these people, our technocrats, stand firm. When you know what you are doing and what your mandate is, you should be able to stand firm and do the right thing.

Madam Speaker, there is no way we can accept this notion that someone can use their influence. It does not work because when the Public Accounts Committee sits, it only invites and speaks to people who it knows have the mandate.

Madam Speaker, in future, we would like to see a reduction. It is possible to see zero audit queries in some of these institutions when people do the right thing. Transact when you are supposed to transact. You do not have to do late transactions or hire planes in haste and when issues backfire, you cannot get refunds.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Those are the things that culminate into audit queries. People must follow procedure. We were dealing with the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) the other day when we were appropriating the Supplementary Budget, which we are still considering and which is normal and provided for in the Appropriation Bill.

Madam Speaker, the Government can plan and plans can also change. Expenditure parameters can change. That is why the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning can come to this august House and say, “I projected that I was going to spend so much on these institutions, but it has not been the case and I need some more money.” So, how do you try and say something is being done differently when we are following the same procedures that were followed yesterday or the other year? That is what we have. That is what is provided for.

Madam Speaker, I just want to make it clear that those who are mandated to ensure good use of the resources that we appropriate here must be held accountable. There should be no pointing of fingers at people who are not supposed to be answerable for the resources that we appropriate from here.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:  The hon. Members who are going to debate next, I am appealing, again, to them to not exhaust all the eight minutes. Depending on how you debate, I will decide to move on. I call on the hon. Member for Nkana.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, thank you so much. I will be very brief.

Madam Speaker, listening to the report presented by the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee reminds me of a comment I made earlier on, I think about two days ago, regarding this particular revelation that has been brought out in this report, of a debt swap.

Madam Speaker, every time a report of the Auditor-General is presented, year in year out, there are these revelations of gross misapplication and misappropriation of funds. The question that begs an answer is, “What are we doing to address this evil?” It looks like this is a cancer that has been with us for a long time and one would have expected that by now we should have been in a position where we were reducing these financial irregularities. Unfortunately, the financial irregularities keep on swinging up.

Madam Speaker, I read through this report and I found a part where the Public Accounts Committee was making what was a recommendation, an appeal or an instruction to controlling officers to go and report this particular transaction to the relevant law enforcement agencies. I do not know what it was. That in itself is very wrong, according to my understanding, because it is not the Public Accounts Committee that should make that recommendation. It must be automatic. When a revelation is brought out by the Public Accounts Committee, in fact, just when a revelation is made or brought out by the Auditor-General’s report, the wings that have been employed by the Government to address such evils must immediately swing into action and not wait for Parliament to discuss it.

Madam Speaker, when an appeal is made to a controlling officer, first of all, we ask ourselves the question: When there is a financial irregularity in any entity, a ministry or a spending agency, who is the culprit? From my accounting background, two people come to my mind. Number one is the controlling officer and number two is the auditor himself. You know that the Auditor-General’s office further goes down to internal auditors. Before the Auditor-General even comes in to audit, there are internal auditors who are employed and paid by the Government to ensure that they detect these irregularities at the point that they are happening. The question is: What do they do when they discover a trail of what would have been misappropriation by the time the Auditor-General’s report is coming out?

Madam Speaker, the culprits are the same controlling officers and not politicians because there seems to be a song that has been sung for a very long time that politicians are to blame for the financial irregularities happening in ministries and spending agencies. For me, the biggest culprits are controlling officers. After all, who is an hon. Minister? An hon. Minister is only an overseer. Does he sign? No, he does not. The controlling officer is the culprit. The next biggest culprit is the Auditor-General himself because he has delegated authority to internal auditors who are paid by the Government to ensure that they go and detect these ill activities before they even happen.

Madam Speaker, for us to move from this path that we have been on for many years, we must begin to see punitive action being taken against these culprits, the controlling officers or the internal auditors, because, after all, they are stealing from the Government. What are they paid for if not to detect these irregularities even before they happen?

Madam Speaker, I am comforted to listen to the hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi East say that the New Dawn Government is addressing these things. We do not want to sit in this Parliament next year to come and read a report again that will bring out such revelations of gross misapplication of finances that are meant to address challenges that our people face.

Madam Speaker, every time I have come to this august House, I have taken a swipe at the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development over his failure to address my road in Nkana Constituency, the Chibuluma Road. I am happy that he is going to address it now. However, these misappropriated funds would have, by now, addressed the challenges that my people face vis-à-vis the Chibuluma Road, but somebody misappropriated them.

Madam Speaker, this particular transaction, the debt swap, stinks. It is jaw dropping. It can actually draw every breath from your body. The question today is: What has happened? This transaction happened many years ago, in 2015 precisely. That was when this transaction happened. What happened when this was uncovered because we know the culprits who signed on the transaction? We know them. They are living and walking in the streets scot-free. So, how then do we deter the next person who could try to indulge in ill financial activities if those are seen to be walking our streets free?

Madam Speaker, perpetrators of crime must rot in jail.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Any one must rot in jail, but the caution is that before these irregularities happen we have employed officers, namely internal auditors. Let them do their job and not be paid free money. Otherwise, that money we are paying them should be going to address problems in our communities.

Madam Speaker, the Public Accounts Committee is doing a great job, but we are tired of listening to these irregularities that go unpunished. The next time a report comes from the Public Accounts Committee, we want to see systems being followed because we know that the New Dawn Government now has employed competent people starting from Permanent Secretaries (PSs) all the way down to junior officers.

Madam Speaker, the people of Nkana have every confidence that we are now going to change our course from what it has been.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Although the hon. Member had promised to be brief, he has taken the slot for two debaters.

Laughter

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Public Accounts Committee report tendered by Hon. Mwambazi and seconded by Hon. Daka from Chadiza.

Madam Speaker, I wish to refer this House to page 3 which is basically a summary of the audit findings. Often times, when I have debated in this House, I have been challenged by others to lay evidence on the Table.

Madam Speaker, the evidence is all there on page 3, which I actually cite. On page 3, we see a systematic growth in the nature of unaccounted for funds and various things. I will cite a few just for this House. We have seen an increase, for example, in unretired imprest from K1 million in 2018 to K1.5 million in 2019 to K28.5 million in 2020. We have seen failure to follow tender procedures grow from K87,900 in 2019 to K234 million in 2020. We have seen wasteful expenditure grow from K222,000 in 2018 to K3.7 million in 2019 to K1.4 trillion in 2020.

Madam Speaker, this shows a deliberate movement around 2020. The movement is huge. This movement in 2020 was looking at unaccounted for funds, failure to follow tender procedures and wasteful expenditure. From an analytical point of view, it is easy for one to conclude that there was a deliberate process to kill professionalism in the public sector in this particular year. People decided to focus on deliberate ways to undercut the system and to push for patronage.

Madam Speaker, there was leadership and system failure and everybody took advantage of this leadership and system failure. It became a situation of sangwapo or each one as one finds it. People decided to ransack the resources of this country in 2020, each one taking what they could because leaders where no longer in charge. Everybody was busy taking what they could take. We can, therefore, conclude that as we were moving to towards 2021 Elections everybody was looting so that they could have something for the elections in 2021.

Madam Speaker, this is how this country lost tremendous resources that could have resolved several issues, like I always mention, in Mbabala Constituency where we have no roads. Our people cried for roads and bridges. When our people experienced hunger in 2019, they were given animal feed instead of maize. These are the challenges which we faced whilst money was available in the country, but was being looted.

Madam Speaker, this shows that we did not do development monitoring and evaluation, which was going to help the leadership understand certain things such as having midterm budget and expenditure review to see how it was going. That way, they were going to know that things were not okay.

Madam Speaker, with this report, nobody in this House can now dispute that there was no looting of public resources. We have established the evidence and from now onwards, it is clear and on record by this House that the past regime abused the resources of this country. It is up to law enforcement agencies to now follow up and recover, retrieve and ensure that there is repayment of these lost resources by those who abused them and took them away from the people.

Madam Speaker, I also want to challenge professional bodies because some of these people who were involved belong to them. They should also hold them accountable; institutions such as the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA) and many others that uphold professional ethics.

Madam Speaker, I also want to encourage the Government to invest in electronic systems that are going help us deal with and curtail these kinds of abuse where paper work is used to run away from being accountable. Electronic systems will help us.

With the New Dawn Government, we have seen, Madam Speaker, that prudent management of resources can result in good things for the country, as demonstrated by the Supplementary Budget which is coming from savings and other prudent measures that have been taken. I, therefore, wish to commend Hon. Musokotwane and the entire Cabinet led by His Excellency, President Hichilema, for the good work they are doing in demonstrating prudence and bringing back integrity...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: ... in public finance management.

This country is in safe hands. We are, indeed, back in the Champions’ League and shall ensure that the future of our children and future generations is protected. The values are back and, as a result, every citizen is now free and is going to get the benefit of a Government that cares for its people.

With these remarks, Madam Speaker, I second the Motion.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: It looks like nobody wants to yield their time. So, I will allow one more debater, the hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

Please, can you debate within four minutes?

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for the opportunity to debate and I promise that I will be very brief.

Madam Speaker, mine is to make one or two recommendations. Number one is that we need to support the Office of the Auditor-General to ensure that it has, at least, two interim audits. This will reduce the workload on both the Auditor-General and the auditees. The presence of the Auditor-General’s office at district level across the country is a need. We need to support the beefing up of staff at the Auditor-General’s office. There is also every need to support the Auditor-General in ensuring that his office attracts a highly competent workforce; we are talking about accountants and auditors. The need for the Auditor-General to retain and attract a highly qualified and competent workforce is critical.

Madam Speaker, there is a need for us to agree and understand that policy officers past, present and future are not angels and, because they are not angels, emphasis must not be placed on petty partisan politics, but on strengthening institutions. That is the more reason I want to submit, as I go towards my conclusion, that we should give the Auditor-General the support that he needs to achieve his goals and objectives in order to ensure public sector accountability.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I wish to state that accountability is a process and not an end in itself and hence the constant need for us to ensure that improvement is ongoing. This is very, very critical.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, thank you so much. I will also be brief because, indeed, as you have guided, there is a lot of work to be done today and tomorrow.

Madam Speaker, I just simply commend the Public Accounts Committee for producing and tabling the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts for the Republic for the Financial Year ended 31^st December, 2020. The report gives the Treasury an opportunity to introspect, follow up and take corrective action where necessary.

Madam Speaker, as I said, I think it was the day before yesterday, the issue of leadership is very important. I repeat that message today. With the President that we have at the helm, who is very much focused on ensuring that financial prudence takes place in the country, where every single ngwee is carefully spent on what matters, I see us making very good progress in the next four years to make sure that reports such as this will become fewer and fewer because there is commitment to correcting what is wrong. 

Madam Speaker, with those few words, let me once again thank your Committee and urge it to continue to do well for the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Speaker, I thank you and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I also take this opportunity to thank my hon. Colleagues who have ably debated this report.

Madam Speaker, it is imperative that those people who are conferred with duties to appropriate public resources on behalf of the Zambian people are accountable. How do we make them accountable? It is by ensuring that we have adequate and robust internal controls in our various line ministries as well as government spending agencies to see to it that some of these vices are kept from inception.

Madam Speaker, let me also comment on the issue of mortgage financing and also projects delays. At times, what we need to know, even as we debate, is that the cancer is within us. What do I mean by that? We are dealing with the same Civil Service. The laissez-faire attitude of the Civil Service has, most of the time, cost the Government colossal sums of money. By signing bad contracts with bad clauses, the Government is losing colossal sums of money. We have seen all those submissions. So, it is not an issue of capacity building for the civil servants; they are very educated. However, it is an issue of integrity and of being proud of their country, Zambia. How do we move forward? How do we develop this country?

Madam Speaker, let me also comment on the issue again of some of the officers at the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. We have done the tours. You will find that a contractor has finished work, but it takes two to three years to certify it. An example is the Gwembe District Hospital. The contractor had finished the works, but the officers from the ministry arrived the same day we arrived at the site saying they had come to certify the works. It had taken them two years to do that. That delays projects and entails that the Government starts to lose money through liquidated damages. These are some of the issues we need to clean up in the Civil Service to ensure that we foster development and service delivery to the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, let me also take this opportunity to highlight one of the issues which we found in foreign missions –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa, you are supposed to be winding up and not debating. You are opening up the debate. Please, wind up.

Mr Mwambazi: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to thank you most sincerely and all the debaters. I beg to move this Motion.

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister of Agriculture had a point that he wanted to make.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for allowing change of protocol a little bit for this.

Madam Speaker, in the debate by the Committee Chairperson and the contributions by his Vice-Chairperson, the Member of Parliament for Chadiza, Hon. Jonathan Daka, they made a very serious comment that there was 900 –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, since the report has been adopted. I think let us leave it.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I am obliged.

Madam Speaker: Please, bear in mind that this report is looking at a historic situation; what happened in the past. So, let us not put ourselves in the debate. Since the report has been adopted, we make progress.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTS

Mr Mulunda (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the report of the Committee on Local Government Accounts on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Audit of Accounts of Local Authorities for the Financial Year ended 31^st December, 2020, for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 26^th July, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mulunda: Madam Speaker, the Auditor-General’s report contains sixty-seven councils, each appearing under a separate paragraph.

Madam Speaker, your Committee interacted with all of these councils. I am confident that hon. Members have already acquainted themselves with the contents of your Committee’s full report. Therefore, I will only highlight a few issues which arose during your Committee’s interactions with councils.

Madam Speaker, the first query which appeared in the report for almost all councils that were cited is the negative variance on revenue collection. Your Committee observes, with concern, the negative variance on various revenue types that were projected against what was actually received by councils.

Madam Speaker, most of the councils cited a lack of funding from the Central Government in the form of the Local Government Equalisation Fund. They claimed that funds were not received as per budget and hence the huge variances being reported. Your Committee does not accept this reason as it has, time and again, been emphasised that councils must explore means and ways of increasing their revenue sources instead of waiting upon the Central Government to finance their expenditure.

Madam Speaker, the major reason for this query is over budgeting coupled with a lack of aggressiveness in revenue mobilisation by councils.

Madam Speaker, your Committee implores all accounting authorities to ensure that councils devise new strategies to enhance their revenue collection and increase their revenue portfolios. Your Committee emphasises the need for councils to enhance their efforts in sensitising communities in their respective jurisdictions on the need to pay rates, fees and other council charges.

Madam Speaker, allow me also to touch on staff related matters that were noted in the Auditor- General’s report. Your Committee is happy to report that through its continuous interventions on matters related to staff transfers and discipline, the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) submitted a report that during the period under review, accounting authorities and other council staff were charged with different offences for failure to comply with established procedures.

Madam Speaker, this is the ideal situation unlike transferring erring officers to other councils and perpetuating vices in other jurisdictions.

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that your Committee has attached to its report an appendix II, a special report to the LGSC urging it to take prompt action against some specific individuals and councils that have been highlighted in the report and also those that have been problematic over the years.

Madam Speaker, I wish to highlight other problems that have become perennial year after year. These include unsupported payments, missing payment vouchers, unaccounted for payments, irregular payments, duplicated receipt books and printing of receipt books from private companies.

Madam Speaker, your Committee has made very serious recommendations to the LGSC to put an end to these irregularities in the report. Your Committee is determined to change the status quo where officers think it is business as usual by repeatedly recommending a thorough cleanup of the system so that fiscal decentralisation can be implemented efficiently and effectively.

Madam Speaker, your Committee wishes to appreciate the intervention by the Office of the Secretary to the Treasury by facilitating follow-ups on outstanding issues on the previous reports of your Committee. The Secretary to the Treasury is encouraged to ensure that follow-ups on outstanding issues are enhanced and that other initiatives are explored and operationalised to ensure improved compliance. This will ultimately reduce the volume of audit queries in local authorities.

Your Committee wishes to place on record its disappointment over the failure by the Secretary to the Treasury to facilitate the timely tabling of the treasury minutes on the report of the Auditor-General.

Interjections

Mr Mulunda: No, it is this woman here.

Laughter

Mr Mulunda: Madam Speaker, the Secretary to the Treasury, therefore, is encouraged to, henceforth, table treasury minutes timely to avoid increasing the backlog on outstanding issues.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to thank the witnesses who appeared before your Committee for their cooperation. I also wish to acknowledge and appreciate officers from the offices of the Auditor-General, Accountant-General and the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development for their technical advice to your Committee during its meetings and tours. Allow me also to thank you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee during its deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: I do not know which woman was being blamed.

Laughter

Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Rev. Katuta: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for this great opportunity given to the voice of Chienge to second this very important Motion on the report of the Committee on Local Government Accounts on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Audit of Accounts of Local Authorities for the Financial Year Ended 31^st December, 2020.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I thank the mover of the Motion for the manner in which he moved the Motion. Local Government Accounts are very important, I believe, and your Committee needs support from both sides of the House, including the Executive, looking at the work that it is doing.

Madam Speaker, your Committee on Local Government Accounts looked at various councils, as the mover of the Motion indicated. I think it is about time that, as a nation, we took seriously what the mover talked about; the recommendations of this Committee. We have principal officers working in local councils who have qualifications, but their qualifications do not marry or tarry with their performance.

Madam Speaker, for this reason, may I suggest, on behalf of the Committee and the House, that these officers should be given performance based contracts. When you look at most of the Chief Executive Officers (CEOs) whom we interacted with, the majority claimed that they had the proper qualifications. However, they lack the initiative on how they can improve revenues for councils. They go to work just to report, as they are employed. In the meantime, when you look at the manner in which councils are failing to meet most of their obligations, you realise that most of the CEOs or technocrats in these councils do not understand what they are there for.

Madam Speaker, the increase in allocation for the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) presents a huge challenge on how the Government is going to achieve decentralisation because most technocrats do not even understand how they are supposed to contribute towards helping the Government on how to sustain their councils. They are so dependent on the Central Government to the extent whereby most of the councils are using the CDF to pay salaries. Such officers should be brought to book. I think the recommendation should be that such officers should be punished.

Madam Speaker, when we look at the Local Government Equalisation Fund, 20 per cent is supposed to go to capital projects. However, most of the councils have failed to even give reports to hon. Members of Parliament on how they have used this fund. They use everything for salaries.

Madam Speaker, some councils have business ventures like motels. Some of the motels that we visited, for example in Livingstone, are a sad story. I believe the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC), the one that recruits these officers, is the main culprit. This commission has been recruiting people who show papers, but are not capable of delivering services to the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the other thing is that most of these officers are being shielded by the laws that we have enacted here on the Floor of this House. For example, in the case which was given to us in Chienge, somebody who did not qualify to hold a particular position was employed in that position. Now, when there was a time for restructuring so that the position could be given to the right person, the first person had to be demoted to some lower rank. However, that person still continued enjoying the same salary because the law does not allow somebody to be demoted and the salary changed. So, it is like having two people getting the same kind of salary, but in different positions; one is in a lower position and the other one is in the right or higher position. I think these are some of the things that we should look at in this House and, maybe, repeal some of these Acts to enable councils to deliver.

Madam Speaker, while interacting with these officers, your Committee discovered that internal auditing systems in most councils was a bit – allow me to use this word – rotten. It is like the internal auditing systems in most councils are not working effectively. I think it is also very important that a few roles can be put in place and these internal auditors should be able to be put their foot down.

Madam Speaker, imagine that a named council had to pay one contractor four times more. I think there is a challenge and we have to question what kind of control systems councils have.

Madam Speaker, before I wind up, may I, please, also talk about the commission once again. We have seen that councils were over employing. Councils were given members of staff that they did not necessarily even need. I think there should also be a law that will make the commissioners answerable. They should not only be answerable, but they should also be taken to court. They should be prosecuted because they do this deliberately knowing that they report to the highest office in the land.

Madam Speaker, I think we should also come up with laws that will make them to be accountable and stop them from over employing or employing cadres just because they belong to a certain political party or there is nepotism. I think this is the only way it can be avoided.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I would like to second this very important Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Again, because of limitations on time, I am using my discretion; debate will be for only four minutes and I am recognising four people. We will have the hon. Members for Chama South, Roan, Kafue and Chama North, in that order, and that will be all. So, we start with the hon. Member for Chama South.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, indeed, there is great concern on the manner our councils are managing the affairs of the people in their jurisdictions. I have been forced to debate looking at the irregularities and many other wrongs committed by councils, particularly, to do with the council in Chama where I come from.

Madam Speaker, it is shocking to see there is a claim of overpayment of above K230,000 to a contractor whose contract was less than K300,000. This contractor was paid an amount in excess of K237,000. Where are the internal control measures? Indeed, if you look at many projects and queries that are arising from the council in Chama, for example, there is a need for the Government to take not only remedial measures, but also find a lasting solution when it comes to these officers deliberately abusing their authority.

Madam Speaker, I am more concerned because the last time I sat with the Constituency Development Fund Committee (CDFC), we had recommended that no contractor should be paid money before the community had seen water. However, we were shocked that one contractor had been paid the full amount and no water has been provided for our people, against the rules and recommendations that the CDFC made.

This brings us to a serious concern. People out there know that the K25.7 million has been released and it is in the hands of hon. Members of Parliament. I want to place on record that as hon. Members of Parliament, we have no control over that money, and you know that. The people out there should also understand that we, hon. Members of Parliament, both on your right and the left, do not have any control over that money. The people responsible are the Executive, the hon. Ministers and their technocrats. They are the ones who control that money. If hon. Members of Parliament had a hand in that money, I can assure you that councils would not behave the way they do.

Madam Speaker, I appeal to the hon. Minister for Local Government and Rural Development to ensure that he brings us as his partners on board and he will deliver. If he excludes us, it will be the usual story.

Madam Speaker, you can imagine a situation where, as a Constituency Development Fund Committee (CDFC), we recommend the transportation of mealie meal and then the council decides not write to the hon. Minister to seek authority. It goes ahead on its own.

Madam Speaker, there is another query on the health post in Chitukula where the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) released money. I appeal to Her Honour the Vice- President because money was released and it was I who made a follow-up. The council could not make a follow-up for a refund and it came out to be an audit query. We do not know where that money has been taken at the DMMU provincial centre.

So, I just wanted to put on record that if we, hon. Members of Parliament, are brought back into these councils, sanity will be brought back because we want to deliver for our people. That is how we get elected and not those technocrats. I submit.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me chance to contribute to debate on this report.

Madam Speaker, I totally conquer with what the report has brought out. To start with, it is very disappointing to realise that some of these municipal and city councils have huge platforms where they can raise this required revenue. Talk about Lusaka City Council, Ndola City Council and Kitwe City Council; these have bus stations and markets which are gold mines. Where does the money that they collect from these areas go? That is the question. Why should the council or the local authority go to an extent of employing over 700 people who are unqualified and are drawing salaries? Why should people go for four to five months without being paid and yet they receive from the Central Government the Local Government Equalisation Fund. We all know that this Local Government Equalisation Fund has a purpose; 20 per cent must go to project implementation, but we do not see that.

Madam Speaker, indeed, this report has brought out a lot of issues. We commend your Committee for saying that it has written a report to the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) to ensure that all these lacunas, lapses and inefficiencies are cleared.

Madam Speaker, I am coming from a council that houses a mining company. We are all aware that these mining companies pay huge sum sof money in terms of land rates, but we do not know where these monies go. Why should a council like Luanshya Municipal, that gets a lot of money in terms of land rates, go to a person as poor as a mother or father in Mpatamatu in Roan Constituency to collect a fridge and then sell it in order to realise money to pay salaries? That is not necessary.

So, what we need is to ensure that sanity is brought to these councils. There is no sanity. We need to know who have been doing the wrong things. Why should they duplicate receipt books? Where does the money that they collect go? I hope that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, who we trust so much, working together with the LGSC, shall bring sanity to some of these local authorities. Enough is enough; we need to start doing things on a new slate.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I thank you very much for according me the chance to debate.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to just add my thoughts to the debate which so far has been well made by hon. Colleagues who spoke before me. The fact that we are now talking about K25.7 million going to our different councils entails that we really should not continue doing business as usual for our councils because a lot of Government money here is at stake. Certainly, with that, it just means that councils and our ministry have to start from the beginning ensuring that we have the right manpower in these offices.

Madam Speaker, recently, I have been reading tips from what the commission is doing; a report which has brought out a number of people that are occupying positions that they are not qualified for in councils. This is a serious matter. I do not know if this is what accounts for the number of incomplete projects that have been initiated in our various constituencies that cannot be completed. Could it be that we do not have the right manpower in terms of quantity surveyors or whatever they are called so that they can do a good job for us to be able to complete?

Madam Speaker, in our case, we devoted the entire 2021 CDF to completing projects that were left from many years back. One wonders whether it is a question of incompetent staff or utter misapplication and theft of Government resources for which, really, people should be held accountable.

So, I agree with colleagues who are suggesting the presence of hon. Members of Parliament in councils. I think now is more important than ever before, given the huge responsibility that is going to local councils.

Madam Speaker, it is not easy for us to even tell when the CDF is being used or when Local Government Equalisation Fund is being used. There seems to be this comingling of funds which really brings about all these audit query issues. Other than that, I think hon. Members of Parliament are more exposed to go and strengthen accountability at that level unlike some of our councillors, especially from the Western Province who go in, ...

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chonya: ... who are Patriotic Front (PF), to look for a job.

Laughter

Mr Chonya: They jump at any opportunity when the Government is recruiting and then they forget about that job because they are looking for a means of livelihood. So, they do not have stamina and capacity to even engage at that level.

Madam Speaker, recently in Kafue, we acquired a big bus which shocked even the councillors themselves. One wonders where they were when management was procuring this bus. Now, we have been condemned because we are looking at priorities. Why go for a bus when a grader is down? We do not have a single grader to do works on our bad roads in the community.

So, that is why it is high time that the hon. Members of Parliament went back to give support at that level. This New Dawn Government, which has been good at legislating, I am sure will move at break neck speed to help correct that anomaly so that we can, indeed, get the best out of our CDF. Otherwise, it is a sorry sight to see that there are all these issues and queries around the CDF and all those incomplete projects that I have already alluded to.

Madam Speaker, I was just reading a bit about Kafue and about one of the CDF projects done recently. They have already raised issues about the quality of works that have come there. So, let us do justice to these monies, otherwise they will be a waste.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, first and foremost, in supporting the adoption of this report. I want to thank Hon. Mulundu for moving this Motion and Hon. Katuta for seconding it.

Madam Speaker, an efficient and effective local Government system is a corner stone for improved public service delivery. That is the only way we are going to realise the Decentralisation Policy. However, most local authorities are marred with serious challenges ranging from abuse of funds, misapplication, failure to collect revenue, under employment and over staffed labour, just to mention but a few.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours 

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was trying to highlight the challenges many local authorities in this country face. The genesis of the financial challenges most councils face date back to the time when they were deprived of their key sources of revenue such as motor vehicle licensing and house rentals. So, you find that councils throughout the country have been having challenges. I think it is important that we find a way of how we can improve the financial base of various local authorities.

Madam Speaker, big local authorities, town councils and those in mining areas have no excuse to fail to raise revenue. It is very sad that you hear of cases of workers going for seven or eleven months without being paid their salaries when these councils are domiciled in areas where there are mines.

Madam Speaker, quickly, I want to go to the highlights on the Chama Town Council. The Auditor-General’s report has highlighted some variation of K876,000, which was budgeted by the Chama Town Council, but posted a negative variation of 876,000. The council anticipated that it would sell residential and commercial plots, but that was not realised. I think the fact of the matter is that the plots where beyond the reach of the majority of the local people.

Madam Speaker I appeal to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to ensure that some of the charges by local authorities are regulated. However, I am happy that recently, we decided to review the plots downwards. I think the most important thing, I support what other hon. Colleagues have said, is that hon. Members of Parliament become Members of the full council. That way, we will be able to monitor the operations of local authorities.

Madam Speaker, I also notice in the report that K550,000 was meant for boreholes and that six boreholes were drilled. That is not correct. The information on the ground is that only one borehole was drilled and more than six boreholes were dry. Up to this time, people have no access to clean drinking water. I have spoken to the contractor, but he is elusive. I appeal to law enforcement agencies to follow this contractor because there is no way one can get away with K550,000 when our people in Chama are victims of crocodile attacks –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, let me thank the mover of the Motion, the hon. Member of Parliament for Siavonga, and the seconder.

Madam Speaker, my ministry, which is the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, is charged with the responsibility and mandate to facilitate local Government administration and efficient municipal service delivery through local authorities. My ministry also ensures that there is prudent financial management of local authorities to allow for efficient and effective service delivery at local level.

Madam Speaker, I am grateful to have this opportunity to react to the Auditor-General's report, as read by my two hon. Colleagues, for the financial year ended 31^st December, 2020, tabled on the Floor of the House. I submit my reactions as follows:

Budget Performance and Income

Madam Speaker, my ministry notes your Committee's concern, which we appreciate, on the negative variances with regard to budgets and income in many local authorities. To address this concern, my ministry is working very tirelessly on automating the financial management systems and standardising general-purpose financial statements as guided through the Treasury. This will enable the Government to track the performance of all local authorities’ approved budgets against actual revenues.

Additionally, Madam Speaker, my ministry is also strengthening the budget formulation process by migrating all local authorities onto the Output Based Budgeting (OBB) system to enhance budget performance through attainment of planned outputs and to streamline revenue. So far, out of 116 local authorities, 104 are already on the system. It is envisaged that the balance will migrate by the end of this year.

Management of the Local Government Equalisation Fund and the Constituency Development Fund

Madam Speaker, I take note of your Committee's observations for the Government to consistently disburse the Local Government Equalisation Fund (LGEF) and the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). By the way the Treasury has behaved in the first year of the United Party for National Development (UPND) in Government, I think this is no longer a concern because monies have been disbursed expeditiously and timely to all Government spending agencies, including local authorities.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I state that the Government has been consistent in the disbursement of these funds, and I need not emphasise this fact.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the CDF, my ministry has been working tirelessly, again, towards enhancing effective and efficient implementation. I can confirm to you that I am one of the hon. Ministers who were given a travel ban by the President until we streamline all these bottlenecks and impediments surrounding the CDF.

Madam Speaker, I am glad to report to you that as we rise tomorrow, close to plus or minus twenty-five constituencies only are not yet done. We have done nearly 126 and I am sure that by the end of today when I get back to my office, I will find that my officers have completed the assessment of all the other constituencies that are remaining.

Madam, I take note of your Committee’s recommendations for local authorities to lobby CDF Committees for the funding of uncompleted projects in respective localities. The House may wish to note that all projects funded under the CDF are required to be recommended by the community through the Ward Development Fund Committees. As such, any uncompleted project under the local authority requires to be subjected to the same process of prioritisation through the community.

Integrated Development Plans (IDP)

Madam, in line with your Committee’s concern on the failure of most local authorities to develop and implement Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) pursuant to the provisions of the Urban and Regional Planning Act No. 3 of 2015, I wish to submit that my ministry has made the following interventions:

      (a) issuance of directives to all local authorities to develop IDPs as required by law;

      (b) ensuring that all local authorities make specific provisions for the preparation of IDPs in their annual

           budgets; and

     (c) provision of technical support to local authorities on preparation of IDPs.

Solid Waste Management

Madam, on solid waste management, the ministry acknowledges your Committee’s submission on inadequacies in the provision of solid waste management services by our councils, particularly with regard to the management of dumpsites or landfills. To address this, my ministry has been strengthening policy and legislative frameworks, which include the development of a Solid Waste Management Policy and regulations. Further, my ministry is strengthening sector coordination to enhance interaction with the related sector and for improved service delivery by local authorities and stakeholders. The Government is also heightening the enforcement and adherence of the solid waste management regulations.

Madam Speaker, this ministry has also ensured active monitoring of compliance levels in all districts and will continue to provide technical services and enhance solid waste management. To this effect, my ministry is developing a monitoring and evaluation framework for sustainable monitoring, evaluation and reporting mechanisms to inform decision making.

Valuation Rolls

Madam, with regard to the updating of the valuation rolls in local authorities, I wish to submit that my ministry has instructed all local authorities to ensure that the valuation rolls are up to date pursuant to the provisions of the Rating Act No. 20 of 2018. Further, the ministry will continue to support local authorities through grants and assist them to meet the costs of preparing and updating the valuation rolls.

Madam Speaker, I must quickly say here that there has been a lot of confrontation between property owners and local authorities in terms of default because most of the valuation rolls are believed to have unstandardised rating systems where, for instance, property in Livingstone is valued much higher than a property in Lusaka. This is a matter that we are attending to.

Madam, I have heard the other concern from hon. Members of Parliament. They have consistently said they wish to get back to the council. This is a settled matter by this Government. It only requires us to bring an amendment and agree and resolve that we want to be part and parcel of the council yet again. This is the House that removed hon. Members of Parliament from councils and this is the very House that can reinstate them.

Madam Speaker, regarding hon. Members’ involvement in the CDF, I would like to believe that as we set out the guidelines, we made sure that we worked very closely with the adhoc committee that was established by yourself, Madam Speaker, to help streamline all that may have been distancing the hon. Members of Parliament from its management and disbursement. I strongly believe that we came over that. To my colleagues, the guidelines give them a certain amount of authority to oversee what goes on in the CDF vis a vis the quality of service, the price of goods and services and timely delivery. If we meet all those three, I can assure hon. Members that we shall all be happy together.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mulunda: Madam Speaker, thank you very much.

Madam, first and foremost, I would like to appreciate my hon. Colleagues from both your left and right.

Madam Speaker, after interacting with all these local authorities, one thing that came into the minds of your Committee members was that the controls were either not there or were so weak that they could not detect anything. Besides that, I would use the word sangwapo. It was sangwapo, meaning it was free for all because …

Hon. Government Member: Uubomba mwi bala.

Mr Mulunda: … nobody could manage public finances, especially if you look at the big cities. However, we have hope at the end of the day because the LGSC, working together with the parent ministry, the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, is putting in measures that will cause these loopholes to be sealed. I believe that the reports of the Auditor- General that will be brought in years to come will be thin ones.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

________

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE PUBLIC DEBT MANAGEMENT BILL, 2022

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, prudent public debt management has, in recent years, become a priority for many developing nations. This is especially so for Zambia whose public debt is now unsustainable. Unsustainable public debt does not only affect economic and fiscal stability at the macro level, but also affects the Government’s ability to finance its social and economic development agenda.

Unfortunately, the impact of a sovereign debt crisis is ultimately borne by ordinary residents at household level. The effects may include rise in cost of living, reduced employment opportunities and, in many cases, reduced access to social services as resources meant for social spending are diverted to meet increasing debt service costs. It is, therefore, the Government’s priority to restore public debt to sustainable levels in order to mitigate these impacts and ensure that mechanisms are put in place to avoid a recurrence of a debt crisis in future.

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform you, through the House, that the repeal and replacement of the Loans and Guarantees Authorisation Act of 1969 and the General Loan and Stock Act of 1931 are among the measures that the New Dawn Government is implementing to achieve this objective.

Madam Speaker, the review of the law is aimed at addressing the inherent weakness in the legal framework for public debt management. This is based on the understanding that a robust legal framework is critical for effective public debt management as it promotes discipline, transparency and accountability.

Madam Speaker, the Public Debt, Grants and Guarantees Bill, 2022, will strengthen the legal framework for public debt contraction and management as well as consolidate the contraction and management of grants and issuance and management of sovereign guarantees.

Madam Speaker, once enacted, the Public Debt Grants and Guarantees Act will transform the contraction and management of public debt and grants and issuance and management of guarantees in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the proposed changes in the Bill will instil discipline in debt contraction and management; strengthen management of fiscal risks arising from sovereign guarantees; and promote transparency and accountability in the management of all public debt, including debt directly contracted by public bodies.

Madam Speaker, the enactment of this progressive law will pave way for the establishment of controls that will ensure effective debt contraction and management system that will safeguard debt sustainability for many years to come.

Madam Speaker, the repeal and replacement of the Loans and Guarantees Authorisation Act of 1969 has the following objectives:

      (a)   revise the law relating to public debt, grants and guarantees so as to address the existing gaps in the

            legal framework and incorporate international best practices in public debt management;

     (b)   align the Act with the provisions of the Republican Constitution of 2016 which requires approval of loans

           by the National Assembly before contraction;

     (c)   provide for the raising of grants and establishment of a sinking fund;

     (d)  regulate the issuance of sovereign guarantees in order to mitigate fiscal risks arising from such

           contingent liabilities;

    (e)  provide for institutional arrangements for public debt management through the establishment of a debt

          management office;

    (f)  enhance transparency and accountability in the management of public debt, grants and guarantees in

         order to promote prudent public debt management practices and ensure public debt sustainability;

    (g)  repeal and replace the Loans and Guarantees Authorisation Act of 1969 and the General Loan and Stock

         Act, 1931; and

     (h) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, let me now highlight some of the major policy changes and/or inclusions in the Bill.

Approval of Loans by the National Assembly

Madam Speaker, one of the requirements introduced in the Constitution, as amended in 2016, is the approval of loans by the National Assembly before they are contracted. The Constitution further states that subsidiary legislation should prescribe the modalities of obtaining approval of loans by the National Assembly. This Bill, therefore, aligns with the provisions of the Constitution by incorporating parliamentary oversight in the debt contraction process.

Madam Speaker, it is evident that the limited oversight in debt contraction and debt management in the past has contributed to the current debt crisis. It is, therefore, expected that the approval of loans by the National Assembly will improve public debt management by providing the necessary checks and balances in public debt contraction and management which are essential for debt sustainability.

Madam Speaker, this provision will also increase transparency and accountability and ensure that borrowed resources are used in an efficient and prudent manner that guarantees value for money and minimise wastage.

Madam Speaker, once the Bill is enacted into law, all loans to be contracted will be approved by this House through the Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP).

Borrowing Limits

Madam Speaker, the amendment seeks to address the setting of debt ceilings which in the current Act was done by resolution of the National Assembly and prescribed by Statutory Instrument. There is currently no mechanism in the Loans and Guarantees Authorisation Act to scientifically guide the determination of debt ceilings which are set in absolute Kwacha value, and not benchmarked to any debt substantiality indicator as per international best practice.

Madam Speaker, the Bill has set a clear debt ceiling as the percentage of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). This not only provides a more binding constraint that is less susceptible to abuse, but also ensures that the country’s debt is maintained within sustainable levels since the limit is aligned with the acceptable threshold for a country like ours. However, considering that we are currently in debt distress, a transition period has been provided for to allow the necessary economic adjustments needed to bring the debt levels within a prescribed threshold. In the meantime, the current debt ceilings will continue to apply until it is revoked at the end of the transition period provided.

Scope of Public Debt

Madam Speaker, the scope of public debt was not defined in the current Act. This has created ambiguity on what is to be included or excluded from the computation of public debt among different stakeholders. A lack of a clearly defined scope of public debt further compromised the Treasury’s legal capacity to adequately regulate the debt directly contracted by public bodies which pose a threat to debt sustainability if not well managed considering that the obligations of State-owned enterprises and other public bodies are contingent liabilities.

Madam Speaker, by providing a clear definition of public debt, the Bill streamlines the scope of public debt in Zambia, which will result in better management of the entire public debt portfolio.

Further, the definition as outlined in the Bill is broad enough and is generally consistent with the broad definition of public debt by international financial institutions. Including the definition of public debt in the Bill will also mitigate possible misinterpretations of public debt figures published by the Government to address the misconception of hidden debt.

Enhanced Regulation of Sovereign Grantees and Borrowing by Public Bodies

Madam Speaker, under this provision, the proposal is that before issuing a guarantee, a credit risk assessment must be conducted to determine the capacity of the beneficiary institution to pay back the loan. This is aimed at mitigating the fiscal risks from guarantees and the threat they pose to debt sustainability if not well-managed.

Madam Speaker, therefore, public bodies seeking authority to borrow domestically or externally will be subjected to a credit risk assessment to ensure they have the capacity to carry the debt.

Further, external borrowing by public bodies will be subjected to approval by the National Assembly as part of the resolve to promote transparency, fiscal discipline and accountability in the management of public debt.

Madam Speaker, in order to ensure that these approval processes do not induce inefficiencies that may stifle the competiveness of these public bodies, regulations with clear guidelines will be established following the enactment of the Bill. Overall, the enforcement of these provisions will streamline the management of guaranteed and non-guaranteed obligations of public bodies which present a major risk for overall debt sustainability.

Streamline the Administration of Grants

Madam Speaker, in the current legal framework, grants are not explicitly provided for. The Bill has included provisions to govern the raising and use of grant financing, including the purposes for which the Government may obtain a grant. The objective of this provision is to streamline the use of public resources, which include grants, so as to minimise wastage.

Institutional Arrangement

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, maybe you can wind up. Time has run out already.

Dr Musokotwane: Oh, I see.

Madam Speaker, I just want to conclude by saying that there are also institutional arrangements provided for with the establishment of the Debt Office, and in terms of transparency, I think the key point is that the Treasury will be obliged every so often to do a debt sustainability analysis and also to report to the nation how the debt situation of the country is evolving.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I allowed the hon. Minister since the information might be necessary to help hon. Members in their debate, but time had run out; apologies for that.

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, the Planning and Budgeting Committee was tasked to scrutinise the Public Debt Management Bill No. 7 of 2022 pursuant to its mandate as set out in Standing Order 195 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2021.

From the outset, Madam Speaker, I wish to applaud the Government for finally presenting the Public Debt Management Bill to the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chaatila: The Bill has been long overdue and halted the enforcement of Article 63(d) of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016, which mandates the National Assembly to approve public debt before it is contracted. The Bill also aims to repeal and replace the Loans and Guarantees (Authorisation) Act of 1969 and the General Loan and Stock Act of 1931. In addition, the Bill also provides for establishment of a Sinking Fund, among other things.

Madam Speaker, allow me to stress that the absence of this piece of legislation has contributed the fast pace at which public debt has accumulated and had led to the debt catastrophe that the country is currently facing.

Madam Speaker, the House will recall that as far back as the mid-1980s to mid-2000s, the country was in high debt distress and was rescued under the Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) Initiative and the Multilateral Debt Relief Initiative (MDRI) of 2005. Sadly, the stock of debt has grown exponentially in slightly over a decade to US$14.71 billion as at the end of September 2021.

Madam Speaker, in scrutinising the Bill, the Committee interacted with witnesses from the private sector and public institutions. I am confident that hon. Members have acquainted themselves with the report of your Committee. I will, therefore, only highlight very few salient issues.

Madam, I wish to place on record that all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee welcomed and supported the Bill and were optimistic that once enacted, the new law would promote accountability and transparency in debt contraction while at the same time contribute to fiscal prudence. Allow me at this juncture to highlight some of your Committee’s observations.

Madam Speaker, your Committee appreciates that Clause 8(2) provides for consistency between the Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP) and the Debt Management Strategy. However, it expresses concern that in the absence of detailed information, the oversight role of the National Assembly in approving public debt may be compromised. This is in view of the fact that individual loans will not be brought to the National Assembly before being contracted, following the approval of the Annual Borrowing Plan in Clause 6.

Your Committee, therefore, strongly recommends that in addition to the provision in Clause 8(2), the Annual Borrowing Plan should provide relevant detailed information to enable the National Assembly to analyse the borrowing plan before approving it.

Further, your Committee observed that while Clause 8(4) clearly provides the timeline for the Annual Borrowing Plan to be submitted to the National Assembly, it is unclear whether the plan must be presented alongside the National Budget, before or separately.

Madam Speaker, given the limited time for the National Assembly to approve the estimates of revenue and expenditure, the Committee is of the view that scrutinising the plan would be compromised if it is presented simultaneously with the estimates of revenue and expenditure. In light of this, your Committee strongly recommends the Annual Borrowing Plan must precede the presentation of the estimates of revenue and expenditure for the next financial year. This will enable the House to effectively scrutinise the plan.

Madam Speaker, finally, your Committee applauds the Government for the commitment to manage public debt by the inclusion of a debt ceiling in Clause 11(2)(a)(b) in the Bill. Your Committee is, however, concerned that the proposed 65 per cent threshold is higher than the recommended sustainable International Monetary Fund (IMF) threshold of 35 per cent for weak policy makers. As such, it may pose a threat to meeting debt sustainable levels and attaining fiscal consolidation.

Madam Speaker, cognisant of the current debt situation the country is in, your Committee strongly recommends that the debt ceiling must be aligned with established benchmarks for debt sustainability.

As I conclude, Madam Speaker, I wish to state that your Committee supports the Bill subject to the Executive addressing the concerns expressed in its report.

Madam Speaker, allow me to place on record, my appreciation to all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee and made submissions on the Bill. I also wish to thank you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to the Committee during the consolidation of the Bill.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Let us go back to only four minutes of debate per hon. Member.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister and your Committee for delivering on this report on this important Bill that has come at the right time. The Bill has come at a time when most Zambians had lost confidence in the leaders and the manner that they were administering the resources of this country.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is timely. The issues of debt management are serious concerns of all Zambians and not only the people who are governing the resources. Public debt is supposed to be contracted on behalf of Zambians and they need to have a voice on how debt contraction is done, and their voice is in this House; in Parliament.

Madam Speaker, this Bill gives Zambians a say on the present and future and also on how our grandchildren’s governance system is going to be managed. Sovereign debt contracting is a serious issue and this Bill has given confidence that on all the debt this country is going to contract, going forward, Zambians are going to have a say. They will not just wake up and find themselves imbibed into colossal and unprecedented debt like we find ourselves in.

Madam Speaker, I just want to hint on the debt management office that your Committee proposed be created. We look forward to an office that will be autonomous and report to the Treasury like has been proposed. We look forward to an office that is going to be effective and ensure that debt management decisions are followed to the latter. With the debt ceilings and amounts, this office if supported, we strongly feel will be able to see to it that this country’s debt is managed well and we do not find ourselves in the situation we are in and now struggling to provide essential services for this country.

Madam Speaker, indeed, we strongly feel that borrowing plans that have been mentioned by your Committee should be subjected to this House. I strongly feel that enough time should be given to Committees responsible to scrutinise these borrowed plans so that we do not find ourselves in circumstances that we are in.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I wish to state that this Bill is proactive. It is a Bill that will ensure that we become effective in how we manage our resources. Effective debt management starts with oversight like the one we are proposing through this Bill. It is a bed rock to debt sustainability. I submit. 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chilubi an opportunity to add a voice onto the debate on this Bill. The people of Chilubi would like to put on record that the Bill, on most of the sections, is progressive, especially Section 8 that stipulates the mode in which the borrowing plan is supposed to be packaged.

Madam Speaker, the people of Chilubi have found that in certain sections, it would have been good to match – Especially that budget planning and execution is also attached to the national plan, it would have been good to embrace budget planning and marrying the current Bill just like the Public Finance Management Act has been married to the Bill in one way or the other so that the Bill can have a life span that is consistent with public financial management, particularly that it is suggesting that borrowing should stipulate which project is borrowed for. The people of Chilubi have in mind that sometimes, borrowing should be done to answer to the pillars in the national development plan.

Madam Speaker, having said that, the people of Chilubi would like to bring to your attention what is in Section 5. It is stipulated that the President would be given the leverage to contract debt, especially when Parliament is dissolved and there is a vacancy in the ministry responsible for finance.

Madam Speaker, the people of Chilubi would like to say that some of the reasons that have been forwarded like national disaster; a state of affairs like an emergency; and declaration of war should qualify this particular borrowing because it means that even approval of Parliament, especially on the scale of the separation of powers, would keep and absolve all the powers of loan contraction in one person. It is stipulated in Section 5 that when there is vacancy in the ministry responsible for finance caused by dissolution of Parliament, the President can borrow on behalf of the nation.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the people of Chilubi would like to submit that that particular section should be resubmitted because it causes haemorrhage. I submit.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for the opportunity to wind up debate on the report.

Madam Speaker, I also thank the hon. Members that have debated this very important Bill. As you can image the Chairperson of your Committee said that twelve to fourteen years ago, this country’s debt was forgiven, but now, we find ourselves in a very difficult situation with the debt, again, having accumulated. I believe that this Bill goes a long way to prevent a recurrence of that.

Madam Speaker, I have taken note of the comments made by your Committee.

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 29^th July, 2022.

THE ROAD TRAFFIC (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2022

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to present the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill, National Assembly Bill No. 8 of 2022 for Second Reading. The amendment of the Road Traffic Act No. 11 of 2002 was necessitated by the need to address several lacunas in order to enhance the country’s road safety profile and enhance service delivery to the Zambian people.

Madam Speaker, the Government has consistently stated that we are committed to ensuring that all road users are safe. We remain resolute to reducing the number of road traffic crashes and fatalities on our roads. We remain steadfast in our desire to influence positive driver behaviour. It is for these reasons that Government has prioritised addressing the several road safety concerns that have arisen due to the expanded road network and increased vehicle population in the country.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members of this august House may recall that on 3^rd March, 2022, I delivered a ministerial statement on the continued escalation of road traffic crashes and fatalities on our roads. I did state that the Government would be tabling this Bill to address some of our driver behaviour shortcomings.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members may also recall that on 1^st April, 2022, this august House approved Zambia’s ratification of the African Road Safety Charter. This charter contains progressive provisions such as promoting enhanced and strict adherence to training programmes for drivers; adoption of standardised road designs that consider the needs of all road users, including vulnerable pedestrians, cyclists and wheelchair users; and the need for enhanced installation of road signs to help reduce road traffic crashes.

Madam, the provisions in the amendment Bill are aimed at domesticating these issues from the charter. The House may also wish to note that the Bill is in line with the Southern African Development Community (SADC) model laws, which aim to promote and harmonise legal and regulatory transport frameworks within the SADC region.

Allow me at this juncture, Madam Speaker, to highlight some of the gaps in the current Road Traffic Act No. 11 of 2002, which include, but may not be limited to the following:

      (a)  no provision for probationary driver’s licence to observe newly licensed drivers or a demerit point system

           to track repeat traffic offenders;

      (b) no provision for registration of motor vehicles at the border which escalates the number of unregistered

           motor vehicles;

     (c)  no provision for the issuance of road service licences to companies that transport their own products. The

           vehicles, even though used on own account, are used for reward and, therefore, should be licensed;

     (d)  no provision to compel implementing agencies to adhere to the recommendations of the Road Safety

           Engineering Committee;

     (e)  no provision for tolerance on speed limits;

     (f)   no provision to regulate online car hailing services; and

     (g)  lastly, no provisions explicitly spelling out the offence of interfering with the presidential motorcade or

          immediately following a presidential motorcade or emergency vehicle.

Madam Speaker, kindly permit me to further illustrate the benefits of the provisions in the Bill addressing the identified gaps. The gaps of these provisions include:

     (a)  influencing positive driver behaviour – Introduction of probationary licences and the demerit point system

          will compel drivers to take extra precaution on the roads to avoid the suspension of their licences;

     (b) safer road infrastructure – Provisions to compel implementing agencies to adhere to the recommendations

         of the Road Safety Engineering Committee will ensure that the Road Development Agency (RDA) and local

         authorities implement these recommendations. This will ensure that road designs consider the needs of all

         vulnerable road users in line with the African Road Safety Charter and the recommendations in the report of

         your Committee on Transport, Works and Supply on the follow-up performance audit report on the

         government measures to reduce road traffic accidents in Zambia tabled in the House on 19^th July, 2022.

    (c)  enhanced regulation of public service transporters through the regulation of online car hailing providers and

         regulation of transporters of goods and own account. This provision will also enhance revenue collection;

   (d)  registration of motor vehicles at the border will reduce the number of unregistered vehicles plying on our

        roads and enhance revenue collection. It will also ensure that the records of the Zambia Revenue Authority

       (ZRA) and the RTSA match;

   (e) introducing speed limits tolerance will ensure that motorists are not charged unfairly for exceeding speed

       limits and will ease enforcement once the tolerance limit is exceeded; and

   (f) lastly, provisions explicitly spelling out the offence of interfering with the presidential motorcade will ensure

      that no other offence is attached to it while creating an offence for immediately following a presidential

      motorcade or emergency vehicle will ensure that these motorists who are in the habit of illegally following

      emergency vehicles are penalised according to that behaviour.

Madam Speaker, as I close, allow me to sincerely thank your Committee on Transport, Works and Supply for its effort in ensuring that the Bill is brought to this stage. I, therefore, appeal to hon. Members to favourably consider this Bill.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mubika (Shangombo): Madam Speaker, your Committee on Transport, Works and Supply was tasked to scrutinise the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill No. 8 of 2022, for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, referred to it by the House on Thursday, 7^th July, 2022. In carrying out this assignment, your Committee sought both written and oral submissions from different stakeholders and examined in detail all submissions presented to it.

Madam Speaker, this Bill intends to revise the composition of the board of the agency; revise the provisions relating to the licensing of motor vehicles and drivers; and revise the penalties for driving offences, among other things.

Madam Speaker, let me, from the outset, put on record that your Committee supports the Bill, subject to the concerns raised in the report.

Madam Speaker, with reference to Clause 4 of the Bill, most stakeholders who appeared before your Committee supported the amendment, as it would result in reduced costs of running the Board of the Road Transport and Safety Agency by reducing its size. They further contended that the reduction in the size of the board would result in increased efficiency in decisions making. 

However, some stakeholders expressed concern that the composition of the board being proposed was not private sector driven. They further informed your Committee that they expected an increase in the involvement of the private sector to ensure that management was exposed to the best practices in the management of the road sector.

Madam Speaker, stakeholders, therefore, proposed the restoration of the proportion of private sector board representation and to balance it with the proportion of representation from government officials. This would ensure an equitable influence on board decisions. The Committee, therefore, recommends that the board should be skewed towards private sector composition. This would raise exposure to a variety of best practices on board decisions.

Madam Speaker, with reference to Clause 31, on the amendment of Section 172, your Committee notes that the proposed sanctions for failure to comply with speed limits are too high. Your Committee is of the view that imposing very high sanctions might encourage corrupt practices. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) to undertake a multi-stakeholder consultation on the proposed punitive measures. The consultations should include transport operators, an association representing passengers, members of the public and the Zambia Police Service.

Madam Speaker, to ease the payment of fines for failure to comply with traffic regulations, your Committee, in agreeing with stakeholders, recommends that RTSA should be allowed to start the collection of road fines. This could be paid through various online payment platforms so that motorists are cleared of their traffic charges without having to pay through the Zambia Police Service.

Madam Speaker, let me now bring your attention to Clause 42 of the Bill. Your Committee notes that online car hailing will bring new challenges regarding regulations. The Committee also notes that there is need to embrace the internet era with a wide spread application of digital technology as it has proven to be a more preferred way of travelling by Members of the Public. In this regard, your Committee is of the view that registration of online car hailing should be comprehensive and well regulated without frustrating innovation in the industry.

Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Bill should also provide for substantive provisions for application for online car hailing services just as there are provisions in the Road Traffic Act for application for passenger service vehicles.

To ensure fairness in the issuance of permits, your Committee urges the RTSA to engage the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) to enhance the monitoring of online car hailing sector. Further, the criteria for the issuance of permits should be re-examined to ensure transparency and fairness.

Madam Speaker, to avoid preferential treatment and stifling of innovation in the online car hailing sector, your Committee urges the RTSA to enforce equal compliance mechanisms on both online and physical taxi operators.

Madam Speaker, as I end, I wish to pay tribute to the stakeholders who tendered valuable information to your Committee during its meetings.

Madam Speaker, finally, I wish to thank you and the Clerk of National Assembly for the support and services rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations. We have the honour to be a Committee on Transport, Works and Supply mandated to consider the Road Traffic Amendment Bill No. 8 of 2022.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I want to comment on three issues that have been brought out in this proposed amendment Bill. The first one is the issue that speaks to the provision that has been introduced, namely, giving the right of way to the Presidential motorcade.

Madam Speaker, we have been witnesses to incidences that have happened in this country that have raised a lot of issues regarding giving way to the presidential motorcade. I personally feel that this is a very progressive inclusion in our laws because the life of the President must always be protected. Anything that happens to the President in endangering his life throws the country into turmoil.

Madam Speaker, my concern is the punishment that has been proposed in this Bill. I feel it is too lenient. The three months being proposed for the first offender is too little a punishment to deter would be offenders. I would have loved the punishment to be a little bit higher so that people do not attempt to disturb or risk the life of the President.

Madam Speaker, the other issue I am commenting on is the prohibition of driving a tricycle as well as a scooter on our tarred roads. Over the weekend, I went to Saro Agro Company with other hon. Members of Parliament were we saw the advancements being made to tricycles. In fact, most of the tricycles that are being made today can actually be used as ambulances.

Madam Speaker, when you go to other countries, these are being used on the roads. Therefore, the prohibition that we cannot use our scooters on our tarred roads is retrogressive. I likened it to a person who builds a wall fence because he does not have a car and leaves a very small gate because in his mind he does not feel like he will own a car. I think this is what is being envisaged in this provision of the law; you restrict scooters and tricycles to roads that are not tarred. The assumption could be that Zambia will not have tarred roads everywhere and will obviously be limited to the only existing tarred roads. I think that the hon. Minister should consider that aspect.

Madam Speaker, I bought an electric scooter two weeks ago and I was excited to ride in this scooter, alas, the suggestions in this new Bill are that I cannot use that scooter at all. With the many people who are buying vehicles today, and the congestion on our roads, one would have thought that we should be now going to bicycles, scooters and even tricycles. Why not? That is my observation.

Madam Speaker, the other thing is the issue of the prohibition of driving in an organised procession except for funerals. I think that when we are having our weddings, it is only prudent that we allow people to go in an organised procession. I do not understand how it will be correct to stop people who are celebrating because when you are marrying, it is a joyous moment. You cannot stop people from going in an organised procession because there is obviously insinuation that you are going to disturb the public. In any case, how many weddings do we witness if not only during weekends? Of course, I agree that the attempt is to stop cadrerism and processions that are organised by political parties. I think that the inclusion of those that could have been exempted from this requirement, like those attending weddings, should have been allowed. I thought I must add my voice on these three issues.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, I only have a few things to say because most of them have already been covered.

Madam Speaker, the Bill is, indeed, timely as there are a number of issues. The dynamics on our roads have since changed. Therefore, there is a need for a much more up to date law applicable on our roads.

Madam Speaker, there are just a few things I want to highlight to the hon. Minister. One of them has already been mentioned by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana; the issue of disallowing the use of tricycles, scooters and quad bikes. Our public roads do not have provisions for pedestrians and people using bicycles. Strangely, bicycles are not actually specifically banned from being used on our tarred roads. So, I think that needs to be revisited in order to accommodate people that are using these as modes of transport.

Madam Speaker, on the board composition for the Road Traffic and Safety Agency (RTSA), indeed, there has been a trimming down. However, there are three groups that are the main users of the roads. One is the transporter, the passenger and the motorist. Transporters and passengers are represented on the board, but motorists, who are the biggest group of road users, are not represented. Therefore, there is a need to consider their inclusion.

Madam Speaker, just a few other housekeeping issues that I would like to suggest the hon. Minister takes into account; on our current arrangement in terms of vehicle licensing, one of the requirements on our roads is that you need to have your licence disk, the licence itself and the fitness disk displayed on the windscreen. Vehicles in Zambia look like they are billboards. It is worse when it is a public utility vehicle because you probably need to have six or seven stickers. Given that all for all those, one is a pre-requisite of the other, we can actually have just one sticker. As long as getting that sticker determines that you would have had your insurance and everything else in place so that we can do some of these things in a smart way.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker, I also note the validity of our road licenses. We currently run on a calendar quarter system where, if you register your vehicle somewhere in February, it only either covers the quarter from January to March or will only be valid for the seconder quarter of the year instead of the quarter running from the day you register your vehicle, which I think is common and happening around our neighbouring countries. It is a simple thing that I think the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) can implement with the current system it is using.

Madam Speaker, I am happy to note that there has not been any attempt to shift more law enforcement responsibilities onto RTSA. I think RTSA should remain an agency that develops safety policies and regulations whose enforcement should be visibly with the police because police is all over the country. We all know that not too long ago, there was a dispute between the RTSA and the police because RTSA styled itself as a police rather than as an agency that should be looking at investigating accidents as well as developing safety policies for road users.

Madam Speaker, for just one final observation; I note that the issue of remuneration seems to be cutting across even other Bills. There is reference to the Emoluments Commission, which was recently passed by this House. I would like to suggest that –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Wind up, hon. Member, your time is up.

Mr Anakoka: Yes, just in conclusion, Madam Speaker, there is a suggestion that the conditions of service will be determined by the Emoluments Commission on recommendation of these boards. I saw that even in the Tobacco Board of Zambia. So, I would like to suggest that with the existence of the Emoluments Commission, this should clearly state that emoluments should be determined by the Emoluments Commission, full stop, without any loopholes.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to add their voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor. I will be very brief and comment on just two points. The first one is on the punishment for blocking the Presidential motorcade. I feel three months punishment is not enough because we are putting the life of the President in danger. Someone can sacrifice to go in for three months for putting the life of the President in danger. So, I think we need to re-look at that.

Madam Speaker, on tricycles, most rural areas here in Zambia use tricycles. We cannot ban them from being used on our roads unless we can construct specific roads for them to use because there are no alternate routes. The Ministry of Transport and Logistics could provide engines for tricycles for them to be used as planes.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, those are the two points I think the hon. Minister needs to consider.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Chilubi will be the last one to debate on this report.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I just wanted to underscore the point on tricycles, but uniquely to Chilubi. When you look at Chilubi, there is no place where you can find a tarred road. Thinking futuristically, we also dream that one day, we will have a tarred road. If that is our dream, currently, if we want to ferry vehicles, say, to the Island, we want to aspire that we take the lightest vehicle on the available ferries and a tricycle is one of them. Generally, with the coming of the revolution in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) where we have to improve the agriculture sector, it means that if, in future, Chilubi has a tarred road, we may use tricycles. Section 2 of this amended Act has no definition of a tarred road. Maybe it has remained in the principal Act. I am ignorant.

However, a tricycle is supposed to be used for agricultural services and many other activities. Soon, hon. Members of Parliament may think of empowering young people with tricycles so that they ease transport, especially that the cost of buying a tricycle may leave them a bit comfortable.

Madam Speaker, speaking for my rural area, which has three parts; the swamps, the Island and the mainland, the tricycle factor would be discriminatory and not consistent with the Constitution which gives us the right to participate in economic and social activities.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, I thank all hon. Members that have added their voice to the debate on this very progressive Bill. May I state that I am quite pleased with their concerns, but also allay their fears and assure them that this Bill has actually gone to a great length to try and address most of the issues that they have raised.

Madam Speaker, perhaps, let me refer to a few of the concerns raised. As regards the concern relating to Clause 4, allow me to say that the Bill already addresses it. The proposed composition of the Board already provides for the participation of transport associations and passenger associations on the Road Transport and Safety (RTSA) Board. The Bill does provide for the appointment of a representative of an association representing transporters. In Part II, it provides for a person nominated from an association representing passengers. If you had a closer look at the current law, you would find that there was a lacuna whereby, in one instance, it was cast in concrete that there shall be a member from the truckers association. That is limiting participation where, what you are putting is not representation, but merely an association being cast in the law. I think this is what we are trying to cure.

Madam Speaker, when you look, for instance, at Clause 31, the Bill has actually been very fair regarding over-speeding penalties. It has introduced graduated speed fines to reflect the gravity of the offence committed. A person exceeding the speed limit by a small margin should not suffer the same fate as a person who is driving at 120 km/hr on a 60 km/hr stretch. You will find that for those that are marginal in their over-speeding, the penalty is actually lower. Previously, it was a blanket K300 across the board. However, this time around, we are looking at those negligent and reckless drivers who, once they crush, would cause considerable damage not only to property, but also loss of life. So, that has been taken care of.

Allow me also, Madam Speaker, to refer to the concerns by hon. Members on the safety of the Head of State in so far as interference with the presidential motorcade is concerned. I totally agree with them. There are two sides to this coin. What we do not want is a scenario that had happened to the current President when he was in the Opposition at the time. He committed no treasonable offence. In fact, he had the right of way and somebody was deciding to overtake, but that became a treasonable offense.

Interruptions

Mr Tayali: What this law is now trying to do is classify types of offenses. There may be a villager who is riding a bicycle or, indeed, a motor cycle who may stray on to the way of the presidential motorcade without intent. Surely, do not slap him with treason. Slap him with a minimal fine. It has also been considered that should we determine that there was malicious intent and hope to cause harm to the President by trying to impede on the Presidential motorcade, we shall, in fact, take it away from a road traffic offence and move it to the Penal Code where it can be dealt with accordingly.

So, Madam Speaker, this is a very comprehensive Bill and it does take into consideration most of the concerns and I do hope that this is one of the ways to make Zambia’s road safety profile much better. I thank the hon. Members for their support.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 29^th July, 2022.

THE PUBLIC ROADS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2022

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, your Committee, in agreeing with stakeholders, also observes that the Bill has not addressed the overlaps between the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2002 with the other pieces of legislation such as the Local Government Act of 2019. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Executive should endeavour to come up with comprehensive amendments as opposed to piecemeal amendments which might affect the smooth implementation of the law.

Madam Speaker, with regard to Clause 8 of the Bill, which provides for the immunity of the Road Development Agency against litigation, your Committee expresses concern that it could be subject to abuse by the agency. Your Committee is of the view that this could further leave contractors vulnerable as they will have no basis for making any claims in case of a breach of contract by the Road Development Agency (RDA) whilst they could be sued by the agency.

Your Committee, therefore, recommends that there should be no immunity for commercial activities with huge financial implications which only provides protection against litigation for the RDA, leaving the contractor vulnerable to litigation. Your Committee further contends that allowing this could stifle the growth of local contractors with limited financial capacity. Your Committee is not in support of this clause because it is only protecting the Road Development Agency from litigation whilst leaving the contractors suable. Further, your Committee urges the RDA to only offer contracts when money is available to avoid litigation.

Madam Speaker, as I end, I would be failing in my duty if I did not pay tribute to the stakeholders who tendered valuable information to your Committee during its meetings.

Madam Speaker, finally, I wish to thank you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support and services rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations. 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 29^th July 2022.

THE TOBACCO BILL, 2022

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, allow me to indicate that the Bill we are discussing today, should not be confused with the Tobacco Products Control Bill which is under the Ministry of Health.

Madam Speaker, the Tobacco Bill No.10 of 2022, is aimed at repealing and replacing the Tobacco Act and the Tobacco Levy Act Cap. 238 of the Laws of Zambia in order to align the law with the current changes in the tobacco industry, the objects of this Bill are to:

     (a)   provide for the promotion, regulation and monitoring of the production, marketing and packing of tobacco

            in the republic;

     (b)  provide for the regulation of the import of tobacco into the republic;

     (c)   continue the existence of the Tobacco Board of Zambia and redefine its functions;

     (d)  reconstitute the composition of the board and revise the board functions;

     (e)  provide for the imposition and collection of a levy on the tobacco grown in the republic;

     (f)   repeal and replace the Tobacco Act, 1967 and the Tobacco Levy Act, 1967; and

     (g)  provide for matters connected with, or incidental to the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, the Tobacco Board of Zambia was established in 1968 by Section 3 of the Tobacco Act Cap.237 of the Laws of Zambia. The mandate of the Tobacco Board of Zambia is currently to promote, control and regulate the production, marketing and packaging of tobacco in the country, as well as control the export and import of tobacco into the republic.

Madam Speaker, the tobacco industry is also regulated by the Tobacco Levy Act Cap. 238 of the Laws of Zambia which provides for imposition and control of levy charged on all tobacco grown in the country.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that the last amendments of the tobacco legislation were undertaken more than twenty years ago when the Tobacco Board of Zambia was in charge of the actual production of tobacco. However, with the liberalisation of the economy, the roles of the Tobacco Board of Zambia have changed from providing direct support to farmers to that of research and regulation.

Madam Speaker, despite the change in the role of the Tobacco Board of Zambia from being a producer to a regulator, the law governing the industry has remained, strangely, unchanged. In addition, the focus of the current law is on auctionable tobacco which accounts for only 5 per cent of the tobacco produced in Zambia. The existing laws do not provide for the regulation of non auctionable tobacco which accounts for over 90 per cent of the national tobacco production. This means that self sponsored small scale tobacco growers of non auctionable tobacco do not have a readily available market for their produce. In addition, the current law does not sufficiently provide powers to the Tobacco Board of Zambia to enforce penalties to any tobacco buyer who delays in remitting levies to the Tobacco Board. This means that the Government is losing out on the much need revenue from tobacco production.

Madam Speaker, from the year 2013, there has been a decline in tobacco production caused by the withdrawal of major tobacco merchants and sponsors. The decline has been attributed to the lack of investor confidence in the tobacco production as a result of the lack of an updated legal framework that protects investment in the industry. It has, therefore, become necessary to repeal and replace the Tobacco Act Cap.237 and the Tobacco Levy Act Cap.238 in order to

1. enhance the regulation of the tobacco industry ;
2. incorporate the private sector ;
3. include the marketing of the non auctionable tobacco;
4. increase the average productivity of tobacco growers ;and
5. improve Government revenues through the collection of tobacco levy.

Madam Speaker, the new legislation will also improve service delivery to the tobacco industry and attract more investors in the sector.

Madam Speaker, further, the Tobacco Board of Zambia oversees all tobacco marketing processes on the sales floors, provides extension services to tobacco farmers, tobacco quality control, sustainable forest management and prevention of use of child labour in tobacco production. It is, therefore, necessary that the roles of the Tobacco Board of Zambia are provided for within the law to enable the institution to execute its mandate effectively.

Madam Speaker, the process of developing the current Bill involved stakeholder consultations which were led by the Ministry of Agriculture and the Tobacco Board of Zambia. Consultations were undertaken in major tobacco growing areas of the country and at national level. Stakeholders consulted include tobacco buyers, Tobacco Farmers’ Association and Government ministries and institutions. Further, targeted consultations were arranged between the Ministry of Agriculture and the Tobacco Board of Zambia with the following organisations:

    (a)  The Tobacco Association of Zambia;

    (b)  Alliance One Zambia;

    (c)  Tombwe Processing Limited; and

    (d)  Japan Tobacco International (JTR).

Madam Speaker, consensus was awarded at all the issues on the proposed Bill. In addition, a meeting was held at the Ministry of Agriculture on 20^th July where representatives of the tobacco industry came to validate the key areas of concern on the Bill and consensus was arrived at on all the issues.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to render a policy statement on the Public Roads (Amendment) Bill of 2022, approved by Cabinet for presentation to this august House for consideration.

Madam, in 2002, the Government approved the National Transport Policy that led to the creation of the Road Development Agency (RDA) through the passing, by this House, of the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2002. The RDA was mandated with the care, maintenance and construction of public roads in Zambia and to deal with matters incidental to the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2002 created an agency composed of sixteen board members drawn from different institutions, both public and private. Over the years, the size of the board of the agency has proved expensive to sustain. Further, the current size of the agency’s board is not in line with those prevailing in other Government agencies and institutions where boards are operational.

Madam Speaker, in recent times, the RDA has executed its mandate with great difficulty. The over-commitments in the road sector have created a backlog of unpaid interim payment certificates (IPC). This has created a huge public debt. This debt poses a legal challenge for the RDA as litigation cases against the agency have been mounting due to failure to meet financial obligations to service providers on time.

Madam, executions of court judgments against the agency have in some cases affected its operations, thereby, disrupting the delivery of its critical mandate. It is against this background that the Government brings forth proposed amendments to the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2002 to support the efficient operations of the RDA. The objects of the Public Roads (Amendment) Bill of 2022 are, therefore:

    (a)   to revise the composition of the board of the agency and redefine its functions; and

    (b)  introduce a clause to provide immunity against the execution of judgements on the property of the agency.

Madam Speaker, these amendments will result in reduced costs of running the agency by reducing the size of the board. This will further bring the agency in line with what is prevailing in many other Government agencies that have boards comprising of not more than nine members and not the current sixteen for the RDA. The reduction in the size of the board will result in increased efficiency in decision making.

Madam, the introduction of the immunity clause will prevent disruptions in the operations of the agency as it makes effort to make good on its financial obligations and judgments of the courts of law. This will safeguard the smooth operations of a critical Government agency providing a strategic public good and will result in timely delivery of desired outputs.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, your Committee on Transport, Works and Supply was tasked to scrutinise the Public Roads (Amendment) Bill No.9 of 2022 referred to it by the House on Thursday, 7^th July, 2022.

Madam, in carrying out this important task, your Committee interacted with various stakeholders. As hon. Members may be aware, the proposed Bill intends to revise the composition of the Board of the Road Development Agency (RDA) and redefine its functions.

The Bill also intends to provide for the protection against the execution of judgments against property of the agency.

Madam Speaker, this has arisen because the RDA has lately recorded an increase in lawsuits from contractors as well as private individuals. The lawsuits have been on various grounds such as non-payment of interim payment certificates (IPCs) and breach of contract for non-availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, the Bill has been introduced to provide for the protection from execution of judgments against the property of the agency. This is in respect of any act or thing done or omitted to be done in good faith in the exercise or performance of the onus or functions considered under the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2002.

Madam Speaker, while supporting the Bill, let me bring to your attention one of the concerns which was raised by stakeholders relating to Clause 6 of the Bill.

Stakeholders expressed concern that the Bill was not clear on whether the expert referred to would be from the Government or the private sector. In this regard, stakeholders recommended that the board should include a representative from the private sector who had vast knowledge and competence in public roads. That this Bill in Clause 6(1)(g) should state clearly whether the expert referred to was to be from the private sector or any Government institution.

Madam Speaker, stakeholders also expressed concern that the proposed Bill did not address the conflicting mandates for agencies and local authorities operating under the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2002, the National Road Fund Act No. 13 of 2002 and the Tolls Act No. 14 of 2011. In that regard, stakeholders recommended the harmonisation of the three pieces of legislation in order to clearly spell out the functions of each agency to ensure that there was adequate cross-referencing among the three statutes.

Madam Speaker, the proposed legislation will bring about effective regulation of the tobacco industry and will increase production of tobacco and, ultimately, revenue from tobacco production. It is, therefore, important that the Bill is supported for the benefit of the tobacco industry and, indeed, the small scale tobacco producers.

In conclusion, I note that tobacco is not an ordinary crop, Madam Speaker, but is more or less a drug which is subject to international standards and regulations, hence the need to keep the law regarding tobacco absolutely current. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members of the House to support the report of the Committee and the Bill.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Before we proceed, on the last Motion, the Public Roads (Amendment) Bill, I did not see any hon. Member indicate and that is why I called on the hon. Minister to wind up debate. Sincere apologies if I omitted anyone. I was looking at this Bosch screen. I did not look on the other list; my sincere apologies. I did not see the Speaker’s list. I am sorry.

Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the following arrangements have been made for this evening: There will be no second health break at 1840 hours. Dinner will be served at 1900 hours. Hon. Members must be seated by 1945 hours.

Thank you.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference set out in Standing Order 197(a) and 198 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources was tasked to scrutinise the Tobacco Bill No.10 of 2022 for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly referred to it by the House on Thursday, 7^th July.

Madam Speaker, in carrying out this important task, your Committee interacted with various stakeholders. As hon. Members may be aware, the Bill intends to repeal and replace the Tobacco Act Chapter 237 of the Laws of Zambia and the Tobacco Levy Act Chapter 238 of the Laws of Zambia, both of which were enacted in 1967 to provide comprehensive legislation for the tobacco industry.

Madam Speaker, as indicated already, the legislation that regulates the tobacco industry was enacted in 1967 and, currently, the legal framework governing the tobacco industry in the country is archaic. In light of this, the Government has recognised the need to conform the law to the advancements that have been made in the industry with regard to technology and practices as well as to incorporate the private sector and the marketing of non auctionable tobacco. Additionally, there is a need to align the legal framework with international best practices.

In view of the foregoing, Madam Speaker, the Government has introduced the Tobacco Bill No.10 of 2022. The Bill provides for, among others, promotion, regulation and monitoring of the production; marketing and packaging of tobacco in the republic; and regulation of the import of tobacco in the republic.

Madam Speaker, I will state from the outset that the Committee supports the Bill subject to amendments. However, if there is no time to effect the proposed amendments, then the Bill must be deferred to a later date within the next session to allow for consultations with stakeholders to be exhausted.

Madam Speaker, since hon. Members of this august House have had the opportunity to read the Committee’s report, allow me to highlight only three pertinent issues.

Madam Speaker, the first matter concerns the proposal under Clause 9 of the Bill, which provides that a person shall not grow tobacco without a certificate of registration issued under the Act. The clause seems to suggest that all tobacco farmers require a certificate, even those who are not growing it for sale. The clause does not take into consideration farmers growing tobacco for local use only. In view of this, your Committee urges the Government to recast Clause 9 to introduce some exemptions for farmers growing tobacco for local use only.

Madam Speaker, another matter of concern to your Committee is that there are a number of punitive measures in the Bill targeted at the growers as compared to other players, including the Tobacco Board of Zambia (TBZ) and inspectors, among others. For example, your Committee notes that the penalty for growers contravening payment of the levy under Clause 48(2) seems to be more severe than the penalty for levy collectors who contravene remittance of levies under Clause 49(3). In view of this, your Committee recommends that instead of only providing for punitive measures, the Bill should be recast to also reflect regulatory measures in some instances.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that the one year validity of a grower certificate of registration under Clause 15 of the Bill is too short a period for a grower to effectively manage to put in place all necessary measures that are required before growing tobacco, such as the building of infrastructure. In view of the above, your Committee recommends that the certificate of registration should be valid for three years, but that it should attract payment of an annual subscription fee and submission of returns.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, allow me to place on record the gratitude of your Committee to all the stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions. Your Committee also wishes to thank you, Madam, for your guidance, and the Clerk of the National Assembly and staff for support services rendered to it throughout its deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa (Matero): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I seek permission to take off the mask; I struggle to talk and breathe as well with it, just for this second.

Madam Speaker: You may go ahead although we were told by the hon. Minister of Health that we should not take off the masks. However, if you cannot breathe, you may go ahead.

Mr Sampa removed his mask.

I am so grateful, Madam Speaker, more so that our colonisers in England have stopped wearing these masks in Parliament.

Madam Speaker, I thank you, and the hon. Minister for that statement. In the interest of time, I undertake not to take more than four minutes. I will zero in on the report on item 7.3 on page 3, part three, which says “Registration of Growers” and item 7.4 on page 4, part four, which says “Licensing Graders, Buyers and Sales Floors”.

Madam Speaker, I have a big problem with this Bill. Why in the world should we regulate what our people grow? Why do we need to start giving them certificates to grow tobacco? It is their land and soil in their villages given to them by God. Why should a piece of paper be written to certify what they should grow, whether tobacco or not?

If we start with certifying the growing of tobacco, sooner or later, we will start telling them that before they grow maize or pineapples in Mwinilunga and cashew nuts in the Western Province, we need to give them certificates.

Madam Speaker, this Bill does not serve the interest of our people, but of commercial white farmers who are greedy. They just want tobacco to be exclusive to them so that they grow it on their own.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, who is my mbuya, comes from the Eastern Province where all the villagers make a bit of money from tobacco. However, the few commercial farmers that are there do not want competition from our subsistence farmers in villages. They want to be the only ones to grow tobacco. So, I have a problem with certifying the growing of tobacco. The growing of any crop in Zambia by our farmers in our various villages around the country should be kaufela.

Hon. Members: Meaning?

Mr Sampa: Growing whatever you want.

If I am a villager wherever in Zambia and I just wake up and decide to grow groundnuts, tobacco, pumpkins, or maize, I should grow them. There should be no permission from anyone because the soil and rains are from God.

Mr Haimbe: Cannabis?

Mr Sampa: The hon. Minister of Justice asks about cannabis. I am coming to that.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, the Bill is also talking about marketing tobacco. It is trying to define how tobacco should be marketed. We should actually be stopping tobacco from being marketed. We have huge problems in our constituencies starting from smoking tombwe –tobacco. When there is no money to buy Peter Stuyvesant, Consulate or Rothmans cigarettes, our youths go to anything. They start with balani, Codeine or any substance. We have a huge problem of junkies in our constituencies. I have to deal with it. They are dazzled the whole day. They have nothing to do and steal anything. When I go to visit them, they steal my cellular phones. They hug me happy to see me, but when I get back home, my cellular phones are gone. I find out –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, if only I could conclude.

Madam Speaker: You can conclude.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I ask the hon. Minister to consider this Bill and take into account its effect on our people and ensure that it is not promoting a few commercial farmers. He should relook at it. By the time it comes, it should put our village farmers first.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely. May I indicate that whenever a Bill is brought to Parliament, it is always important to make it clear what is motivating its being brought to the House.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that the hon. Minister, in his statement, did indicate that on 20^th July, 2022, there was a meeting of stakeholders to agree on specific issues that would bring unnecessary controversy.

Madam Speaker, I did not hear the hon. Minister indicate in his statement whether the ministry has had the opportunity to go where farmers are actually farming this tobacco. I would favour the idea that further consultations take place. I know the hon. Minister has met one category of stakeholders, but I think there is another category of stakeholders that he needs to engage. The people that do not even know that there is this conversation taking place right now.

Madam Speaker, I can bet my five fingers on the right hand that farmers out there in the villages are not aware that there is even a Motion on this Floor. So, it would help the hon. Minister develop a more inclusive document if further consultations took place. If the hon. Minister has had meetings already, he may do well, obviously, to report to this august House that apart from the 20^th July meeting, he also met these other different stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, I know that laws have to be made for the benefit of the people that we serve. I know that there are a lot of suggestions that are ready to come from hon. Members of Parliament and the orderly members of the public. I also know the hon. Minister is equal to the task. What we need to do is to pick the thought of your Committee and I am happy that the chairperson, in his summary of the report, did indicate that further consultations were needed.

Madam Speaker, I have been authorised by the people of Kamfinsa Constituency to suggest to the hon. Minister of Agriculture to kindly undertake further consultations to the lowest people in society that would want to be part of this very important exercise. I think this is a very important exercise and the hon. Minister will bring back the document before this House and we will gladly support it. For now, the hon. Minister should kindly engage the people out there.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to debate the Motion which is on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I would like to declare interest that I am actually the Chairperson of the Caucus on the Prevention of the Abuse of Tobacco. My comments will be fair. I know the hon. Minister explained in his introductory remarks distinguishing the Bill that is on the Floor of the House with that which is yet to come through the hon. Minister of Health, which is targeted at controlling the use of tobacco. However, to be fair enough, the caucus that I represent has a stance.

Madam Speaker, we have been deliberating with my colleagues to try and see how we can strike a balance in ensuring that as much as we look at the production, which this Bill intends to foster, we must also look at the other side of the coin, which is the health aspects of the substance that will be produced and its impact on human life. Therefore, we thought and would like to appeal, as a caucus, to the Executive to simply have a second look at this Bill, objectively.

Madam Speaker, we would have been in a better position had we seen the Tobacco Control Bill come here first before the one we are debating today. We then would have tried to control the use of this substance and come up with laws of how these substances can be controlled in terms of use because of the adverse effect on human life.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: We then would have come to see how this substance can be produced. Therefore, with my colleagues in the caucus, we feel that the Executive must look at this twice. We also feel the speed with which this Bill has come on the Floor of the House, should be the same for the Bill to control the use of tobacco.

Madam Speaker, we also feel that proponents of the production of tobacco seem to be more powerful. We also thought that the three ministries involved, the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Health, should sit together and probably give us an audience as a caucus so that we discuss.

Madam Speaker, we are not refusing the Bill. We support the Bill. We should sit on a table together and discuss the pros and cons of both sides. At the end of the day, we are concerned about the wellbeing of the human being. We need the money on the commerce side. We also need to enhance production which improves lives of people. However, even if people’s lives are improved, if their health is affected, then they are at a loss. So both sides must be considered.

Madam Speaker, I thought I should make those few comments in supporting the Bill, with a caution that let us sit together and relook at the pros and cons.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1901 hours until 1946 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I will be very brief in making my comments. Having listened to the Chairperson of your Committee and the debate that came from the hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi West, I make this appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice, who is responsible for legislation and is Chairperson of the Cabinet Legislation Committee which co-ordinates the issues of Bills being presented: We should be considering the Tobacco Control Bill, which will be sponsored by the Ministry of Health and what would be neat would be to have these Bills harmonised at the same time so that we do not get caught up as we are consider the Tobacco Control Bill and find that there are some omissions that we could have dealt with.

Madam, yes, it is important that the hon. Minister of Agriculture takes care of his farmers just as the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry has an interest in so far as trade in tobacco is concerned. However, as your legislators here, we have a responsibility to legislate and pass laws that do not conflict at any given time.

So, my plea to the hon. Minister of Justice is for him to speak to the sponsoring ministry, the Ministry of Agriculture, to consider temporary withdrawing this Bill so that we can have a chance to come and look at all these Bills at the same time here. Our consciences should be clear that what we have done is in the best interest of our people and the nation. That is the responsibility which we have on behalf of our people.

So, we are in support of the Bill, but the hon. Minister of Agriculture should please bear with us. We would like to have harmony as we pass pieces of legislation in this arm of the Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I will be very quick yet again in stating that the people of Kanchibiya do not support the Bill in its current form as it seeks to compound the poverty of the impoverished small-scale tobacco farmers. The Bill, clearly, is for the rich commercial farmers and seeks to keep the small-scale tobacco farmers as part of the means of production. The Bill goes to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

So, our recommendation is that the Executive must not put the cart before the horse. It will be important for the Executive to prioritise the enactment of a comprehensive national tobacco control law. In this regard, the people of Kanchibiya wish to urge the Executive, through the hon. Minister of Agriculture, to defer or withdraw this Bill in its current form.

Madam Speaker, according to the World Health Organisation (WHO), adverse effects caused by tobacco consumption in terms of deaths caused and the cost burden on the health sector far outweigh the economic benefits of tobacco production as advanced by tobacco players and the commercial industry. We know very well that the tobacco industry contributes minimally to the country’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and, therefore, citizens’ health should be given utmost priority before any economic considerations.

Madam Speaker, Zambia as a signatory to the World Health Organisation Framework Convention on Tobacco Control (WHO-FCTC) committed itself to giving priority to protecting public health by adopting effective administrative policy as well as legislative measures to mitigate the spread of the tobacco epidemic. In this regard, I am placing on record that the people of Kanchibiya wish to urge the Executive, through the hon. Minister of Agriculture, to withdraw or defer this Bill. The Executive should consider prioritising the enactment of a comprehensive national tobacco control law.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: From the debate so far, I do not know if at this time we should continue debating or the hon. Minister has something to say. Should we continue debating seeing there is no time?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, as I stand here, I would like the House to hear me very clearly. The Act which is in effect has never been changed from 1967. As a consequence, we are punishing the very people we think, by withdrawing this Bill, we will be supporting. We have taken into account what the small-scale Zambian farmers have been going through. Every single item that was draconian has been removed and new laws have been proposed.

Madam Speaker, they were saying that we did not consult, but groups went out to the Eastern Province, the Western Province, and the Central Province. They went out to all areas where tobacco is grown. We have gone even to the extent of proposing that the boards which have been dominated by non-Zambians should now include small-scale farmers.

Madam Speaker, maybe I could not have made it very clear during my initial talk. Before we came to this Bill, four days ago, we sat for a long time with your Committee. All the issues which the chairperson raised have been taken into account and have been given to the Ministry of Justice so that we take care of the interests of Zambians. There is no hon. Minister who would come here and stand against the interests of small-scale farmer. As a ministry, our interest is to promote small-scale farmers.

Madam Speaker, let me just give examples. First of all, I wish the House to know that in this country, the tobacco which is put on the market, what we call “sellable tobacco” is sponsored by the buyers of the tobacco. People are given limits to say they cannot grow more than 0.5 ha of tobacco and we have said that that is not right. So, if one grows 0.5 ha, one is expected to harvest 750 kg of tobacco. If one takes 900 kg of tobacco, no one will buy that difference. Therefore, this Act is meant to absorb that top part of the quantity which would have been produced.

Madam Speaker, previously, it was illegal for one to grow even a small patch of tobacco behind one’s house, which one could be using for one’s own snuff and so on and so forth. This Bill is now taking care of that. Previously, if farmers took tobacco to the auction floors and it was not bought, the law was so ancient, archaic and draconian that that tobacco would be picked and destroyed. Therefore, farmers were so vulnerable. In this Bill, we are saying no to that now.

Madam Speaker, the Tobacco Board of Zambia (TBZ) should be given authority to procure that as the last buyer and sell it to other people. Let me give a synonym of the Government of Zambia. We have the Legislature, the Judiciary and the Executive. These are so intertwined that if you remove one, one becomes draconian. It is the same in the tobacco industry. You have the buyer, farmer and international sponsors.

Madam Speaker, if we do not pass this Bill, we are making these two sectors, the buyers and the international buyers, so strong against the very people we think we will support by withdrawing this Bill. I come here in earnest, as a representative, the hon. Members’ representative, on behalf of the people of Zambia that we support them with this Bill. If we do not –

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: They are questioning, but very soon, they will realise that they made the biggest mistake in this House. We are here to protect the farmer.

Madam Speaker, I wish to end by saying that I am so grateful for this opportunity you have given. I, therefore, ask that the House supports this Bill so that the legislation is changed to support our farmers.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, before I talk about the content, the hon. Minister has talked about Tobacco, but I have not heard him say a single word about health or the health concerns of Tobacco.

Madam Speaker, the process of registration is very clear to all of us. The hon. Minister sponsors a Bill, which Bill is presented to this august House. It is then sent to your Committee which has come back to report to the House. It is not for the hon. Minister. We have been in this business before. We have brought Bills here and have had Bills withdrawn or deferred.

Madam Speaker: What is your point of procedure?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, why would the hon. Minister not respect the process here through your Committees? Your Committee has made recommendations, but the hon. Minister wants to stand his ground. We are not here to accept anything that comes from the Executive. That is why we are a Legislature, an oversight institution. So, if we notice concerns, it is our responsibility to get back to our hon. Colleagues in Cabinet and say, “Here are our concerns.” In this case, your Committee has done its work thoroughly well. It interacted with stakeholders and witnesses who were called in accordance with our procedures. Is the hon. Minister in order to ignore the concerns of your Committee and only want to put the interest of his ministry and technocrats?

Ms Mulenga: The white farmers.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we want to be on record that we are supporting him, but if he wants to take that route, my colleagues and I on your left, will not be a part of it. We want to pass legislation here which will not come to haunt us. We have said that there is a Tobacco Control Bill which is yet to come. They are the same because they speak to the same subject. We need to strike a balance. In as much as we want to promote the farmers, –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you are now debating. I am just allowing you to finish.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, it is a topical matter and it is a concern of your citizens. We should not only look at the trade aspect, but also the hazards of tobacco.

Madam Speaker: I am sure the hon. Minister has taken your point.

Mr Kampyongo: I need your serious guidance on this matter, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Let me just consult the Clerks at the Table.

Madam Speaker consulted the Clerks at the Table.

Thank you very much hon. Member for Shiwang’andu for the point you raised. I think the debate has been clear. Hon. Members have debated although I did not allow everyone to debate. At least, we saw where the debate was going. However, the hon. Minister has a position as well. So, under the circumstances, we just need to proceed and see what happens.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister was winding up debate. So, let us make progress.

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that the Tobacco Bill, 2022, be read a second time put and the House voted.

Division list

Ayes

Noes

Abstentions

Question accordingly agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 29^th July, 2022.

THE ZAMBIA INSTITUTE OF PUBLIC RELATIONS AND COMMUNICATION BILL, 2022

The Minister of Information and Media (Ms Kasanda): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to present the Zambia Institute of Public Relations and Communication Bill, No 11 of 2022, for second reading.

Madam Speaker, my ministry’s desire to come up with this law was a call necessitated by a lack of statutory regulation of the public relations and communication profession. Unfortunately, this situation nurtured an environment of unprofessional conduct of the actual players in the field especially that the number of individuals practicing this profession had significantly increased over the years.

Madam Speaker, in an attempt to make it formal, the profession has been operating through an association called the Zambia Public Relations Association (ZAPRA), whose membership is voluntary. Therefore, legislating the association will raise the profile and standard of public relations practice and put an end to any form of unprofessional conduct by members, among other vices. Therefore, the law that will result from this Bill, intends to address the following:

  (a)  continue the existence of the ZAPRA and re-name it as the Zambia Institute of Public Relations and

       Communication (ZIPRC) and re-define its functions;

  (b)  provide for registration of public relations and communication professionals;

  (c)  regulate public relations and communication professionals’ conduct;

  (d)  constitute the council of the institute and provide for its functions; and

  (e)  provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

In short, the above are the objects of this Bill.

Madam Speaker, I would like to conclude by saying that as a ministry whose desire is to have public relations and communication professionals regulated with regard to their practice and conduct, we cannot wait to see this Bill enacted into law. Therefore, on behalf of the ministry, I appeal to this august House to stand with the ministry in supporting this Bill so that it is enacted into law to address the identified challenges as per the above listed objects of the Bill.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Eng. Mabenga (Mulobezi): Madam Speaker, thank you very much and greetings from the good people of Mulobezi.

Madam Speaker, in accordance with Standing Order 198(J) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, your Committee was tasked to consider the Zambia Institute of Public Relations and Communication Bill, No. 11 of 2022 referred to it on Thursday, 7^th July, 2022.

Madam Speaker, the Bill seeks to continue the existence of the Zambia Public Relations Association (ZAPRA) and re-name it as the Zambia Institute of Public Relations and Communication (ZIPRC), and re-define its functions and provide for registration of public relations and communication professionals. The Bill also seeks to regulate the public relations and communication professionals’ conduct. The Bill further seeks to constitute the council of the institute and provide for its functions as well as matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, in order to acquaint itself with the ramifications of the Zambia Institute of Public Relations and Communication Bill, your Committee interacted with various stakeholders who provided both written and oral submissions. Most of these stakeholders supported the Bill, save for a few concerns.

Madam Speaker, I now highlight some of the observations and recommendations of your Committee on the Bill, and in doing so, I wish to state that your Committee supports the Bill.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes that public relations practitioners are, in accordance with the Zambia Institute of Marketing Act, 2022, members of the Zambia Institute of Marketing. If the law is not amended, public relations practitioners will be required to comply with a parallel two-tier membership system with associated additional costs. In this regard, your Committee implores the Government to ensure that the public relations function is removed from the definition of marketing provided in Section 2 of the Zambia Institute of Marketing Act, No.2 2022, as this will be another cost to the members of the institute.

Madam Speaker, while acknowledging that the Bill is progressive, your Committee is deeply concerned that the Bill in Clause 11 provides that practicing without being registered attracts a fine not exceeding 500,000 penalty units and imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or both. Clause 19 also states that a person who practices without a valid practising certificate is liable to a fine not exceeding 300,000 penalty units or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years, or to both.

Madam Speaker, your Committee strongly opposes the custodial sentences of five years and three years provided in Clauses 11 and 19, respectively, because they are too excessive. Your Committee is of the strong view that a fine could suffice and, therefore, recommends that a person who violates the two provisions should not suffer a custodial sentence, but should be made to pay a fine that will be deemed equal to the offence.

Madam Speaker, another issue of concern is that members of the institute will need to pay for various services. While appreciating the fact that the institute would need to raise resources for its smooth operation, your Committee is concerned that the Bill focuses more on charging fees which will discourage practitioners from voluntarily registering their membership.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that upon registration, members of the institute will be required to pay fees for a variety of services, including applications, inspections, registration, practicing certificate, installation of practicing certificate, annual renewal of practicing certificate, issuance of duplicate certificate and inspection of the registered members of the public. Your Committee strongly recommends that to encourage membership and registration, some of these fees should be kept low, combined or done away with.

Madam Speaker, the Committee is further concerned that the Bill empowers the council to appoint a suitably qualified registered practitioner as registrar without prescribing the minimum qualification and experience that the preferred person should possess. Your Committee recommends that the Bill should state clearly that the registrar should be a holder of a first degree in public relations, communications or journalism and should have been a practitioner for a minimum of ten years.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to render my sincere gratitude to you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations. Gratitude also goes to all the stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions before your Committee.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I thank you once again.

Madam Speaker, I have been authorised, once again, by the people of Kamfinsa Constituency to comment on this very important Bill. I want to indicate from the outset that I fully support the Bill and I will give the hon. Minister three reasons which I hope she will take note of even as she fine-tunes the document.

Madam Speaker, in Zambia, we have different professions. There are engineers, those who have done marketing and those who have done journalism. One of the things that this Bill is going to deal with is to prevent people who like overlapping into other professions. Currently, someone who has studied marketing would want to do public relations, which is totally wrong. With this Bill, those who have done journalism and public relations will be protected because the law will dictate who should practise public relations.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Information and Media took over this ministry and I am sure she is aware that people in this profession have been knocking, asking that this Bill finally comes to Parliament. I am sure from the records, her predecessors did a very good job to begin the engagement process. I am sure where she took over speaks to the aspirations of the people in this profession.

Madam Speaker, Hon. Mabenga, other engineers and I belong to an institute. No one overlaps into our institute because it is protected by law and this is what this Bill intends to achieve. So, I stand here to support this Bill because it speaks to a profession that has to be protected. I hope the hon. Minister will go a step further and will not just give these important men and women in our society a body to represent them, but will also look at their plight. Look at how best the profession can be protected and how best our journalists who are practising public relations can get better salaries in different fields because, ultimately, this is a labour-related matter. I know the focus is on the media, but I know that the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security is also an interested party because where workers are involved, their plight is critical.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is a culmination of different conversations that have taken place. After years of engagement and benchmarking, finally, the Bill has been brought to this House. So, I stand here to support it because I know the history of this very important legislation that we need to support today. I am very certain that the journalists who are out there listening to this debate are excited because they were engaged and now the Bill has finally been brought to the Floor of this House.

Madam Speaker, the people of Kamfinsa support this Bill and I hope that the hon. Minister has paid attention to the dimensions that have to be alluded to in protecting and enhancing the profession and ensuring that practitioners are well rewarded for the work they do.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mulaliki (Senanga): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to add a voice to the debate on this Bill. The wonderful people in Senanga support this Bill because it will regulate public relations practitioners in this country.

Madam Speaker, there is a need for professionalism in every profession. I know some sectors of society have argued that public relations is not a profession. However, you realise that almost all entities have employed public relations officers and corporate managers who are the faces of these institutions. Therefore, these individuals paint the picture of whatever organisation they serve to members of the public. Hence, there is a great need to ensure that they abide by a certain code of conduct.

Madam Speaker, I have a few reservations on this Bill. We are trying to decongest our correctional facilities. Therefore, the aspect of custodial sentences should be removed and replaced with fines. We cannot afford to have every offender incarcerated because it becomes a cost to the Government to feed inmates.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I support this Bill.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, I thank the two hon. Members of Parliament who have debated and supported the Bill. I recognise the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa and assure him that we will definitely protect and enhance the profession. We will also be rewarding our colleagues, the journalists and the Public Relations (PR) practitioners. The one thing that I would like to assure the House is that my ministry has engaged the Ministry of Labour and Social Services and I believe we have hands on that. So, we will definitely look into the plight of our people.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Senanga and say that, indeed, we have taken note of the issues that he has brought before this House on the penalties provided. However, you cannot come up with such a piece of legislation without giving it any teeth to bite. What we are also looking at is that if we do not provide any penalties, people will take it so lightly and we will have so many offenders. We want to make this legislation a bit stiffer so that people do not commit offences deliberately knowing the penalty will be stiff.

Madam Speaker, I thank your Committee for supporting this Bill. I also thank everybody else who has supported it.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 29^th July, 2022.

THE CHILDREN’S CODE BILL, 2022

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms D. Mwamba): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Speaker, it is with great gratitude that I rise this evening to present the Children’s Code Bill, No. 12 of 2022 for second reading.

Madam Speaker, may I take this opportunity to sincerely thank your Committee on Youth Sport and Child Matters for its commitment to ensuring that this Bill is brought to this stage.

Madam Speaker, the Children’s Code Bill, No. 12 of 2022 has been developed with the aim of enhancing laws that protect and promote the rights of children in the country. This is in order to reform and consolidate laws on children in Zambia, which have been fragmented, out-dated and unclear, in some cases.

Madam Speaker, the Bill seeks to repeal and replace the Legitimacy Act of 1929, the Child Adoption Act of 1956, the Juveniles Act of 1956 and the Affiliation and Maintenance of Children Act of 1989 for enhanced harmonisation and re-alignment of child related laws.

Madam Speaker, the Bill has also domesticated some aspects of the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child, the Convention on the Protection of Children and Cooperation in respect of Inter-country Adoption and the Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. The conventions have been adapted to the Zambian context with due consideration of our traditions, culture and norms. In addition, the Bill has been anchored on the following principles:

   (a) the best interest of the child;

   (b) the observance of the right to life, survival and development of the child;

   (c) non-discrimination of children; and

   (d) respect for the views of a child in all spheres of life.

Madam Speaker, the Bill seeks to ensure that systems are responsive to the needs and demands of the child protection sector so as to protect and promote the rights of children. As such, the Bill has provided for parental responsibility, custody, maintenance, international abduction, guardianship, foster care, adoption care and the promotion of children as well as the granting of legal aid to children.

Further, the Bill establishes procedures for the treatment of children in conflict with the law and establishes diversion, probation and alternative correctional programmes in advancing restorative justice and compliance with laws. These and many other provisions have formed a progressive and comprehensive Bill which when enacted, will be one of the best statues in the region and beyond.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mwamba: Madam, the provisions of the Bill, especially on the rights of children, will be actualised progressively in order to ensure both the Government and the general society are ready to embrace and support the transition.

Madam Speaker, I wish to underscore that this Bill has come a long way with an extensive consultative process with various stakeholders and previous hon. Ministers in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, and we are glad that a general consensus was finally reached. As it is said, failure to invest in systems to protect children now is the failure to secure the future of the country and this can be costly for future generations.

Madam Speaker, it is, therefore, my sincere hope and trust that hon. Members will favourably consider the enactment of this wonderful Bill.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, I rise to present the report of the Committee on Youth, Sport and Child Matters on the Children’s Code Bill No. 12 of 2022, for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly referred to it by the House on Tuesday, 7^th July, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Any further debate? The hon. Member for Kalulushi.

Ms Mulenga (Kalulushi): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing the good people of Kalulushi to add their voice to this non-controversial Bill.

Madam Speaker, let me begin by thanking the hon. Minister for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services for bringing this Bill –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Sorry, sorry. I thought the hon. Member for Dundumwezi had completed his speech.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Sorry, sorry. You know, now we are in overdrive. Hon. Member for Dundumwezi, I apologise.

Mr Sing’ombe: It has not been seconded, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Yes, you can make your debate.

Mr Sing’ombe: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam, the House may wish to note that currently, the law relating to children is fragmented and set out in different pieces of legislation. For instance, matters relating to children in conflict with the law are currently contained in the Juveniles Act; matters to do with the adoption of children are in the Adoption Act; and matters to do with the affiliation and maintenance of children are contained in the Affiliation and Maintenance of Children Act. These laws have become archaic and do not address the current and changing needs of children.

Additionally, these laws have varying definitions as to who can be considered to be a child. Therefore, it has become necessary to repeal the existing laws and reform and consolidate the law relating to children.

Madam Speaker, in order to provide a definition of ‘children’ that is applicable in all spheres of life in which a child is interacting, and to respond to the current needs of children, your Committee welcomes the Children’s Code Bill No. 12 of 2022 and notes that the Bill, if enacted, will facilitate the enhancement of children’s rights and encompass international best practices and standards that promote the safeguarding of the best interests of a child. However, to ensure that the provisions of this Bill are fully realised, your Committee urges the Government to develop a comprehensive implementation strategy with the necessary budgetary consideration to ensure and guarantee the success of this Bill.

Madam, your Committee’s findings are outlined in the report, which I believe hon. Members have had time to read through. Therefore, allow me to highlight a few of your Committee’s observations and recommendations.

Madam Speaker, under the objectives of the Bill, the Committee observes that the objectives do not explicitly reflect inclusivity of children with disabilities. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the objectives of the Bill should clearly demonstrate inclusiveness to avoid overlooking the specific needs of children with disabilities once the Bill is enacted.

Madam Speaker, your Committee finds Clause 25 (2) which provides for a child witness and a child victim giving evidence to a law enforcement officer not to come in contact with an alleged perpetrator of a crime or be made to confront the alleged perpetrator of a crime progressive. However, your Committee is concerned that this provision may be difficult to implement especially in far-flung areas where the courts do not have the necessary infrastructure and specialised equipment to actualise the provision. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Executive to provide the necessary budgetary consideration for infrastructure development and equipment in all districts in order to ensure and guarantee the success of this provision.

Another issue of concern, Madam Speaker, is that Clause 27 provides for sanctions for infringement of the rights of a child. However, your Committee is concerned that the Bill does not appear to provide sanctions against the State where it violates the rights of a child. Your Committee is aware that as a general principle, the accountability for violating rights primarily rests on the State as the primary duty bearer. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Bill explicitly provides for sanctions against the State, where the State violates the rights of a child.

Madam Speaker, your Committee further observes that Clause 35(4), among other things, empower the child development officer and the child welfare inspector to enter and search any premises without a warrant at any reasonable time. Your Committee recommends that these officers be accompanied by law enforcement agencies when conducting searches and seizing property in order to ensure that all technicalities and formalities surrounding such exercises, which the officers may not be well vested with are followed. Additionally, officers may find themselves in a dangerous situation where they may not be able to defend themselves without law enforcement agencies.

Madam Speaker, another issue of concern is that Clause 60 (4) has given the court the power to order trial where diversion has failed. Your Committee is of the view that this provision is beyond the court’s power in this circumstance because it is only the National Prosecution Authority (NPA) that has the constitutional and statutory power to decide that a matter be taken to court for prosecution. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that this clause should provide that where diversion fails, a decision as to whether or not to prosecute such child should still be made by the NPA before any trial is considered.

Madam, your Committee further notes that Clause 90(1) refers to the hon. Minister as responsible for correctional centres and issuing statutory instruments to establish children’s reformatory centres and child transit centres.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes with concern that this is in conflict with the provision of Section 5 of the Zambia Correctional Services Act which provides that the service and not the minister shall be responsible for the management and control of prisons and correctional centres –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, your time is up, wind up your debate.

Mr Sing’ombe: It provides that the service and not the minister shall be responsible for the management and control of prisons and correctional centres. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the provisions of the Bill and the Act be harmonised.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the good people of Kalulushi to debate on this very non-controversial Bill.

Madam Speaker, due to time, I will just highlight some of the positives and concerns that have been raised by your Committee.

Madam Speaker, one of the objectives of this Bill is to harmonise the archaic and ancient laws. The term ‘children’ has been defined in so many ways, which has made social workers’ work very difficult.

Madam Speaker, this Bill addresses some of the challenges that we women, especially those married to foreign nationals face. This Bill addresses that. For example, if I have been married to a foreign national, when we divorce, he can sneak our child out and it will be very difficult for me to retrieve it.

Madam Speaker, with this Bill, however, it is provided that whether this foreign national takes this child, we can still use our law enforcers to retrieve it.

Madam Speaker, one of the other issues that this Bill is highlighting is the welfare of our own children. Most men will have children outside wedlock and will sponsor them. However, immediately this father dies, the sponsorship is no longer available.

Madam Speaker, this Bill addresses the plight of such children. Even in the event that their father, who had them outside wedlock died, they are defined as children that will still be taken care of.

Interjections

Ms Mulenga: Be very careful those of you who are having children outside wedlock.

Madam Speaker, one of the other highlights is Section 3 which provides – we have seen high numbers of defilers and paedophiles in this country, and they get their jail term. However, once they are out of jail, they settle down in these communities and none of us know who they are. It means that I can employ a garden boy who defiled a child in another street.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is saying that we can now register these paedophiles. This means that they will now be registered as paedophiles or defilers. If they are seeking employment, for example, in a kinder garten, the school will be aware that this man or woman has a history of such behaviour. This is meeting international standards.

Madam Speaker, this is a Bill that needs to be supported by all of us for the safety of our own children. Our children need to be protected and none of us should even begin to debate otherwise. These are our children. These are the future leaders of tomorrow.

Madam Speaker, due to lack of time, I just want to speak on the issue of children living with disabilities. It is this Parliament, under the Persons Living with Disabilities Act No.6 of 2012 that catered and defined how children with disabilities would be taken care of. It is this Parliament that enacted the Persons Living with Disabilities Act No.6 of 2012. This Bill also bore the Zambia Association of Persons Living with Disabilities (ZAPD). So, just to assure the Chairperson of the Committee, children with disabilities will be taken care of. Further in the Bill, Section 32 addresses this concern.

Madam Speaker, I also want to speak on one of the other concerns on the time, the twenty-eight days in which a child is picked up for wrong doing.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, wind up your debate.

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, in winding up, there are so many positives in that Bill and I just want to say to the hon. Minister that she has the support from the left side. This is one of the best Bills that the right side has ever brought.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Musonda: Quality.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Madam Speaker, thank you so much. On behalf of the over 8 million children in this country, including the children of Itezhi-Tezhi, I am excited because today is a day of history and this Parliament shall be remembered by the children of Zambia as the Parliament that passed a Bill which ensured that their rights were protected.

Madam Speaker, if there is an hon. Member of Parliament here who does not have a child, let him start. Good enough is that we are all parents by default and the responsibility to ensure that we take care of our children lies on all of us.

Madam Speaker, in case there might be some few hon. Members of Parliament who have reservations on this Bill, allow me just to make two points to demystify it.

For the people that doubt the credibility, let me explain how much this Bill will put the standing of Zambia’s juvenile justice; the country’s protection of children; and child safeguarding rating on the map. This Bill will move the ratings of this country into the champion’s league.

Madam Speaker, in case some people might have some reservations and think this Bill is going to disregard African culture, I want to assure them that in the African charter on the Rights of Children, Article 31 (d) is very clear that African culture will be preserved. So, this Bill is not taking away any culture or disregarding any African culture in any way.

Madam Speaker, in case there would be one or two doubting Thomases of this Bill who might think it will create a very huge financial burden on this country, I want to assure them that it is actually going to raise the bar of this country in terms of how we look at the rights of children. The Bill will even give us a better bargaining power with those people that believe that we need to restore and respect the rights of children.

Madam Speaker, from your Committee’s report, I also strongly feel that the issues around disability should be introspected a bit more so that in this Bill, they become very visible. We have too many children with disability who also need to be taken care of. I submit.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, allow me to join my fellow hon. Members of Parliament in commending the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services for bringing this Bill. Again, we are excited, as those representing children in this House.

Madam Speaker, on 20^th November, 1989, in New York City, the Convention of the United Nations (UN) on the rights of a child was signed and has taken thirty-three years for this country to domesticate this law. This is a landmark Bill and the voice of Nalolo would like to out rightly support it. In so doing, I would also like to commend the Ministry of Justice for speedily listening to our concerns on the Floor of the House. I was one of those who voiced out the need for this Bill to be enacted.

Madam Speaker, I will just quickly run through some of the issues we had with not having the Children’s Code Bill. The Penal Code Section 138 talked about a child being sixteen years old and below; then we have Article 266 of the Constitution which defines a child with the bracket of eighteen years old; and then we had the Juveniles Act, which talked about a child being nineteen years old and below. This concoction of confusion is now being put to rest with the enactment of this Bill. There will now be a clear definition of what a child is in order to provide subsidiary legislation to what is provided in the Constitution. This will, therefore, provide enough legal mechanisms to provide child safeguarding to ensure that the rights of a child are promoted.

Madam Speaker, some of the myths out there are that this Bill seeks to give power to children to be able to sue their parents and so on and so forth. We would like to demystify this by saying this Bill actually gives protection to children. It gives an opportunity for children to have their welfare addressed.

Madam Speaker, in summary, I think this should be one of the shortest contributions I make. I unreservedly support this Bill.

I thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: My sincere apologies, hon. Members. I have seen that so many people have indicated to debate, but I think we see where the debate is going. We need to make progress. Therefore, the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services will wind up debate.

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I wish to sincerely thank the hon. Minister of Justice and his team as well as all the previous hon. Ministers in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. We worked together.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, on this Bill, we widely consulted and engaged everyone, without leaving anyone behind.

Madam Speaker, the support that we got from previous office holders, child protection non-governmental organisations (NGOs), the three church mother bodies and other stakeholders was overwhelming.

Madam Speaker, I stand here as a proud mother that for once, this Parliament, in the history of Zambia, has made a law to protect and promote the welfare of our future generations and I rest my case.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The voice of a woman.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 29^th July, 2022.

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE PENAL CODE (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Repeal and Replacement of Section 14)

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 1, in line 7, by the deletion of the word “fourteen” and the substitution therefor of the word “twelve”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with an amendment.

The Penal Code (Amendment) Bill, 2022

Report Stage today.

REPORT STAGE

The Penal Code (Amendment) Bill, 2022

Report adopted.

Third Reading today.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Penal Code (Amendment) Bill, 2022

_______

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 62 – (Ministry of Energy – K612,000,000)

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, I cannot see the hon. Minister of Energy in the House.

Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2101, Sub-programme 1002 – Petroleum Development and Management – K612,000,000. Last year, the hon. Minister had budgeted K50,000. He is proposing a supplementary expenditure of K612,000,000. How does this work? What kind of supplementary expenditure is this? What activity is this?

Hon. Member: What do you know?

Mr Kampyongo: You are not hon. Minister, you shut up!

The Chairperson: No! Order, hon. Members! Please, let us not use unparliamentary language. Opposition Whip, please withdraw.

Mr Kampyongo: I apologise, Madam Chairperson, but please make it clear to the hon. Members on the right that they also need to conduct themselves properly.

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Members, we do not have enough time. We know the rules of the House. Can we, please, observe our rules so that we are able to complete this task ahead of us.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, the amount provided is to pay off workers at Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited. As the House is aware, Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited is changing functions because Zambia will be importing finished products. So, this money is to pay off workers. They have been waiting and I want to thank them for their patience. Now, they are about to be paid.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Chairperson, We were made to believe, earlier on in the year, that in the unlikely event of a separation between Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited and its workers, the amount of crude which was in stock was adequate to take care of all these things such as the separation package. Has that position changed? If it has, when did it change? Why did the hon. Minister not come to this House to inform us?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, yes, if that is what I said, but I need to verify it. I also wish to tell the hon. Member that what I am telling him now is the position.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Chairperson: I will have the last question. Is that a follow-up question, Mr Kampyongo?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I will declare interest in this matter because I am a member of your Committee on Parastatal Bodies. Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited is a Parastatal Body. Therefore, in its management structure, it knows how it deals with issues of separation of members of staff. This Budget line was existing, and there was K50,000. It is Petroleum Development and Management. How does this become a Budget line to use on a parastatal body like Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited for it to deal with its workers? How is the Government going to account for these funds?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, just a few days ago, the hon. Colleagues on the other side were asking: “Why are you not paying the workers at the Tanzania Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA)?” TAZARA is a parastatal body. So, if they were agitating for the payment of workers at TAZARA, why do they find it difficult to accept that Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited workers can be paid too? It is in order.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 62 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 66 – (Ministry of Technology and Science – K160,000,000)

Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda (Lupososhi): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2153, Sub-programme 01 – Skills Development – K160,000,000. Is this money meant for all vocational, educational, and training in Zambia or it is only for a selected few?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 2153, Sub-programme 01 – Skills Development – K160,000,000, this money is for skills development. As we can imagine, there are so many youths and children looking for skills in Zambia. We do not even have enough money to cater for all of them. So, the money that is here is what is available and affordable to provide for those skills.

Madam Chairperson, of course, there are other interventions in the country that exist for skills development, but this is what is available under the Ministry of Technology and Science.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Chairperson, I do not know whether the hon. Minister was trying to give an answer or not. Is the K160 million that is provided meant for the purchase of skills training equipment, which I know skills training institutes lack, or it is basically for management? The hon. Minister will agree with me that currently, the Government is releasing money for skills training under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). When I checked at one of the schools we are sending our kids to, there was no equipment to train them. Is this money for administration or for the purchase of trade schools’ equipment?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, the money is for skills development. Obviously, at my level, to be asked whether this money is going to buy paper, chalk, or work suits, I think is too much detail to expect from me. All I can say is that it is for skills training.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 66 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68 – (Ministry of Tourism – K 8,202,062)

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Chairperson, I seek a clarification on Programme 2127, Sub-programme 7001 – Wildlife Conservation and Management – K3,000,000. We have increased cases of human-wildlife animal conflict. Is the hon. Minister assuring the people of Chama North and other constituencies that they are going to see a reduction in the cases of human-wildlife animal conflict?

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, this is just a Supplementary Budget. There is already a Budget for 2022 with all the activities. So, let us try to be specific to this Budget instead of bringing in our constituencies because the details are not here.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, let me recast the question. I seek clarification on Programme 2127, Sub-programme 7001 – Wildlife Conservation and Management – K3,000,000 is a core mandate under this programme. The hon. Minister has proposed to spend K3,000,000 from a budget of K360,073.

Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2199, Sub-programme 7004 – Financial Management – Accounting – K5,202,062. The hon. Minister has further proposed to spend K 5,202,062 on Financial Management and Accounting. With the challenges that have engulfed various game management areas (GMAs) due to human-wildlife animal conflict, should we not be spending more funds on the core function instead of this management budgeting line?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 2127, Sub-programme 7001 – Wildlife Conservation and Management – K3,000,000 is money to be funded to the Community Resource Boards (CRBs), which obviously is always welcome because this is how communities benefit.

Madam Speaker, Programme 2199, Sub-programme 7004 – Financial Management – Accounting – K5,202,062. The K5,202,062 is what the ministry has identified as a requirement for financial management.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 68 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can we have order, on my right.

VOTE 76 – (Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts – K45,250,000)

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Chairperson, the country is celebrating the success that our Zambian Women National Team achieved at the just ended Women’s Africa Cup of Nations (WAFCON). In fact, it has also qualified to the Word Cup, as the hon. Minister may be aware.

Interruptions

Mr Mwila: I am building my question.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, please, continue, but do not debate.

Mr Mwila: Madam Chairperson, since we are now approving a Supplementary Budget, have we provided any money in this K45 million for the preparation of our Zambia Women National Team so that it is adequately prepared to go and compete at the World Cup? Have we provided any money in this Budget? If not, how are we preparing for it?

The Chairperson: I do not know if the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning can attend to that.

Mr Nkombo: He has all the answers.

Mr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, indeed, the money here is precisely for what the hon. Member is asking for.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, I note that the hon. Minister has only requested for extra money to go towards regional and international games. I do not see any request for funding towards the construction of skills training centres for which the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Arts lamented that there was no adequate money in 2022. I am requesting, as an hon. Member of Parliament who is part of this approval process, that funds be allocated towards construction of skills training centres.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, the only money available under this ministry is what is indicated. There is no money for what the hon. Member is asking for.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister will be coming back to this august House in two months time with a presentation –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, there is so much heckling. I do not know how they will learn. They cannot be promoted.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members on my right, can we please avoid running commentaries for the sake of progress. We have to finish this Budget tonight.

You may continue hon. Member.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister will be coming back here in two months’ time with the Budget for the next fiscal year. He had budgeted K2,188,080 and is now proposing a Supplementary Budget of K45,250,000, which is more than 200 per cent of what he initially budgeted. Is this justifiable in view of him coming back in the next few months to budget for this same line?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I am getting confused because from the same side, one colleague said do not forget to put money for regional sports, and the other, the hon. Patriotic Front (PF) Whip is asking why we are putting money there. So, I am getting confused. Maybe, they can sort it out amongst themselves.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo rose.

The Chairperson: Is it a follow-up question?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I want to make a classification.

The Chairperson: You can go ahead.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, my hon. Colleague was pointing to the allocation. He never talked about the variation. My question is on the variation because a Supplementary Budget is just meant to supplement what is already available. However, if what is available is so minimal and the supplementary proposal is this huge, we have a responsibility to ask, knowing that, as I said, he will be coming back in two months to present the Budget here.

Madam Chairperson, my colleague was asking whether they have provided for infrastructure since they had provided for regional and international games. There is no contradiction at all. Mine was different. My colleague asked whether they had provided for infrastructure and mine is the justification for this variation, which is more than 200 per cent in view of the hon. Minister coming back in two months with the Budget for next year.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I think we are just trying to extend time here. I say so because Hon. Kampyongo says in two months, I will be presenting the Budget, so why am I putting so much money, and yet he knows that this money is not up to the time when I will be presenting the Budget. It is money up to the end of the year, December. So, even if we come back two months from now and approve the Budget, we will not be able to spend what we will approve this year until next year. In the meantime, what do we do between now and December?

I thank you, Madam.

The Chairperson: Mr Mabeta, this is your Budget. I do not know –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: It is coming from their side.

Eng. Mabeta (Kankoyo): Madam Chairperson, the huge increase in allocation from K2 million to K45 million is a good indication that the prudent management of resources pays. However, not only football has international and regional games. My appeal is for the hon. Minister to spread the benefits to all other sporting disciplines, especially rugby, because we are also a part of the sport.

The Chairperson: Thank you for that comment.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member seated behind the hon. Minister is one football player who got injured whilst playing football. Next time, he will have something around his neck.

Laughter

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Chairperson, can part of the K45 million be applied for some of our football activities here at the National Assembly since we also have regional tournaments in Malawi and Mozambique?

Madam Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to confirm that this money is for all of us so that that injured hon. Colleague can go and play better football.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, this convinces me even more that we are not utilising the precious resource of time that we are spending here very well. Honestly, how can I be asked that question when I have already clearly stated that this money is for international games. That we should spend time discussing where this money is going shows me that we are not spending our time here properly.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 76 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77 – (Ministry of Defence – K1,004,121,469).

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Chairperson, there is a tendency by our colleagues strategising to keep derailing us so that we waste more time and we do not finish the debate. Last time, these people were suspended for thirty days and that is how we managed to finish the Budget.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, in fact, you have delayed us more because I was almost closing this Vote. You stopped me just to announce that problem. Please, let us observe time.

Vote 77 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 78 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80 – (Ministry of Education – K416,834,525).

Mr Mwila: Madam Chairperson, I know that public universities have huge bills which they have been struggling with for so many years. Now that we have this Supplementary Budget with the savings that the hon. Minister has explained, would it not have been more prudent to allocate more money especially to the University of Zambia (UNZA) so that it can sort out its perennial problems and clear gratuities and personal emoluments that it owes the academic staff and the general workers at the university? The hon. Minister may explain what this allocation is meant for, but I see that clearly, it is quite inadequate to sort out the problems at higher institutions of learning, especially at UNZA.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, this is all the money that is available. I appreciate the challenges at the universities, but remember that there are even bigger challenges at the lower levels of education. For now, given the limited resources, this is what we were able to allocate.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme, Sub programme 1001 – Early Childhood Education Provision – K62,000,000 and Programme 5503, Sub programme 3001 – Secondary Education Provision – K280,662,009. I see that there is an additional provision of K62,000,000 under early childhood education and an additional K280,662,009 under secondary school education. What are these provisions for, especially under secondary school education? We had K810,462 planned for events this year and the jump to K280,662,009 supplementary is too huge. What is the justification for this jump?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 5501, Sub programme 1001 – Early Childhood Education Provision – K62,000,000 and Programme 5503, Sub programme 3001 – Secondary Education Provision – K280,662,009, there can never be too much of a jump in the education sector. These additional funds are for basic school learners; they are grants for the schools. I wish we could even do more than this.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has allocated money under university education, but I have not seen an allocation towards the completion of hostels at both the University of Zambia (UNZA) and the Copperbelt University (CBU). May I request that funds be allocated for these two pieces of infrastructure that are currently being constructed by the Government?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, the amount of resources that are available are only enough for what has been proposed by the ministry. However, I am aware of the hostels that were started under the previous Government, but have been abandoned. In the next few years, we will look for resources so that we complete those hostels that were abandoned a few years ago.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 80 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 85 – (Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources – K54,505,225).

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has allocated money for land survey, land registration and titling, which is a good thing. I, however, note that under Vote 85, it has not allocated extra money for land development. There is a fund called the Land Development Fund, which is the first stage before you even do the rest of the activities. Is it possible for the ministry to allocate extra funds for land development?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, these are the priorities that have been identified by the ministry. The extra K53 million goes towards land titling. I am sure you will agree with me that given the backlog at the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources, it was just proper that it identified this as a priority so that the titling of land can move faster. However, beyond that, there is separate money that is available for land development. So, this is adequate.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 85 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 86 – (Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock – K198,327,603).

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Chairperson, I wish the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock would take up this question since he is in the House.

Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2132, Sub Programme 2001 – Disease Control – K182,179,874. Is this additional K182 million plus going to help other provinces which the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock does not take care of regarding disease control like the Eastern Province so that we can also start selling animals in Lusaka, Kasumbalesa and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC)?

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Chikote): Madam Chairperson, this is a Supplementary Budget which will go towards disease control. We know very well that one of the provinces where there are animal diseases is the Eastern Province and we are working around the clock to make sure that diseases in that province are brought under control. So, this is the support which will go towards disease control.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda (Lupososhi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2131, Sub-programme 1005 – Aquaculture Enterprise Development Project – K16,147,729. Does this figure include provision of loans to youths for aquaculture development?

Mr Chikote: Madam Chairperson, Programme 2131, Sub-programme 1005 – Aquaculture Enterprise Development Project – K16,147,729 will supplement the loans that we are giving right now to make sure that the number of beneficiaries is increased to cater for our people.

I thank you, Madam.

Votes 86, 87 and 88 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89 – (Ministry of Agriculture – K4,751,336,382)

Mr Mwila: Madam Chairperson, I would like to find out if this supplementary allocation of K4.7 billion will result in additional beneficiaries under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). I ask this question because when the hon. Minister of Agriculture announced the FISP for the 2022/2023 Season, he mentioned that there was not going to be an increase in the number of beneficiaries already existing in the current database. Is this K4.7 billion going to provide for additional beneficiaries under FISP?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, there will be no additional beneficiaries and no additional quantities. The same level that was there this season is what is going to prevail. The additional money is in anticipation of the fact that fertiliser now is more expensive. So, the Government has done everything possible not to allow the quantities and the beneficiary number to go down, but instead look for extra money to finance the extra cost. This is what is there.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Chairperson, for how long will we continue to have this expenditure on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) considering the fact that there has not been any measurable result from FISP? It was introduced as a stopgap measure for farmers during the food shortages in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government. Now, farmers are still at grade one. Does the Government not think that the continuous additional allocation of resources towards this is wasteful expenditure?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I appreciate the question raised. Currently, you hear of everybody in the rest of the world complaining and being scared about the food insecurity arising from the war in the Ukraine. We have not faced that problem ourselves, but it is important that we are prepared for next year so that the food security we have enjoyed this year continues in the coming year. This provision just makes sure that next year, we have adequate food security.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Votes 89 and 92 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 94 – (Office of the President – Western Province – K2,200,016)

Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6123, Sub programme 9409 – Public Infrastructure Development – K300,016. What type of infrastructure is the Government going to construct with K300,016 in the Western Province?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Programme 6123, Sub programme 9409 – Public Infrastructure Development – K300,016 reflects the amount of money that was not spent last year, and transferred to 2022. That is what it is.

I thank you, Madam.

Votes 94, 95, 98 and 99 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2022 reported approved.

Report adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Madam Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and National Planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect hereto a later time.

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BILL

FIRST READING

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL, 2022

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Supplementary Appropriation Bill No.15 of 2022.

SECOND READING

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL, 2022

Madam Speaker, the object of the Bill is to authorise supplementary expenditure from the consolidated fund of monies required for the services of the republic during the financial year ending 31^st December, 2022, in excess of monies appropriated for the services of the republic by the Appropriation Act, 2021.

Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the House for the support of the –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, I think we have gone too fast. We are supposed to be giving the principles of the Bill. We have not reached the winding up yet. Alright, then, I think let us just proceed.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, once again, I just want to say that I thank the House for supporting the Supplementary Budget, 2022. The money that is being proposed for appropriation is for a good cause, including paying of arrears and purchasing more fertiliser and all the other important ingredients that have been debated on. I thank the House for this support.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee today, 28^th July, 2022.

______

BILL

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (2022) BILL, 2022

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments.

The Supplementary Appropriation (2022) Bill, 2022

Third Reading today.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Supplementary Appropriation (2022) Bill, 2022

_______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 2214 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 29^th July, 2022.

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