Friday, 22^nd July, 2022

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

POST-ELECTION SEMINAR

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Honourable Members, I wish to inform the House that the National Assembly, in partnership with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA), will conduct a Post-Election Seminar for all hon. Members of Parliament. The seminar will be conducted from Monday 25^th July, 2022, from 0930 hours to 1600 hours, Tuesday, 26^th to Thursday, 28^th July, 2022, from 0930 hours to 1230 hours, each day here at the main Parliament Buildings. The seminar is a follow up to the orientation seminar that was held in September, 2021, soon after the Thirteenth National Assembly was formed. The seminar will attract both local and international resource persons. I therefore, urge all hon. Members to attend this important seminar.

Thank you.

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House and Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I rise to give the House an indication of the Business it will consider next week.

Madam Speaker, on Tuesday, 26^th July, 2022, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will debate the Motion to Adopt the Report of the Committee on Parastatal Bodies on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of Parastatal Bodies and other Statutory Institutions for the Financial Year ended 31^st December, 2020.

Madam Speaker, on Wednesday, 27^th July, 2022, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider two Private Members’ Motions as follows:

      (a)   Employ Teachers aged  Forty-five; and

      (b)  Re-introduce Sporting Activities in Schools.

Madam Speaker, both Motions will be moved by Mr E. J. Banda, hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central Constituency. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then debate the Second Reading Stage of the following Bills:

         (a)     The Public Debt Management Bill, N.A.B. No. 7 of 2022;

        (b)    The Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill, N.A.B. No. 8 of 2022;

        (c)    The Public Roads (Amendment) Bill, N.A.B. No.  9 of 2022;

        (d)    The Tobacco Bill, N.A.B. No. 10 of 2022;

        (e)  The Zambia Institute of Public Relations and Communications Bill, N.A.B. No. 11 of 2022;

        (f)  The Children Code Bill, N.A.B. No. 12 of 2022; and

        (g)   The Penal Code (Amendment) Bill, N.A.B. No. 13 of 2022; and

        (h)  The Probation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill, N.A.B. No. 14 of 2022.

Madam Speaker, on Thursday, 29^th July, 2022, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentations of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will debate the Motion to Adopt the Report of the Committee on Local Government Accounts.

Madam Speaker, on Friday, 29^th July, 2022, the Business of the House will commence with the Vice-President’s Question Time. Thereafter, the House will consider Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then debate the Motion to Adopt the Main Report of the Public Accounts Committee. The House will then consider any other Business that may be outstanding and thereafter, adjourn sine die.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR CHEWE , HON. MEMBER FOR LUBANSENSHI, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, MRS MASEBO, ON THE OUTBREAK OF DESEASE IN LUBANSENSHI

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): On a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, I thank you for according the good people of Lubansenshi Constituency this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance. I am rising on Standing Order 134. Madam Speaker, in Lubansenshi Constituency, in Luwingu District, Northern Province, we have a disease which has affected our people in the last one week. The number of people who are affected keeps on rising and most of them are school learners.

Madam Speaker, this disease which has affected the people in Namukolo, Ipusukilo, Mwela Wamangu wards and others wards within the constituency is called scabies. Is the hon. Minister of Health in order to keep quiet while the school learners, and the rest of the good people of Lubansenshi, and Luwingu District are affected by this disease?

 I seek your serious guidance on this matter, Madam Speaker.     

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, do we have some more matters of urgent public importance?

Hon. Members: No!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Okay! Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, not long ago, there was a problem of a similar nature that was seen in another constituency. This is not a new disease. What I can advise you is to work with the Ministry of Health in that district so that the health workers there, can go to and attend to that problem. The health workers can also use that opportunity to offer health education to the people in that district. I am sure we all know that that disease comes due to poor hygiene and it spreads very fast. All we need is action to be taken by the health workers in that district.

Thank you.

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MOTION

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS NOS. 27 AND 115

The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House and Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker …

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we have order, hon. Members on the left!

Mr Lufuma: ... I beg to move that effective Tuesday, 26^th July, 2022, Standing Orders Nos. 27 and 115, of the National Assembly of Zambia, Standing Orders, 2021, be suspended to enable the House to sit until all the Business on the order paper is concluded on each sitting day.

Madam, Standing Order No. 27, provides for automatic times of adjournment while Standing Order No.115, prohibits the consideration of more than one stage of a Bill in one sitting. The Motion seeks to suspend these Standing Orders so that the House has ample time to complete outstanding business before adjourning sine die on Friday 29^th July, 2022.

Madam Speaker, the House is aware that there are eight Bills that are coming up at Second Reading Stage and must go through all subsequent stages within the time left. Further, there are still some outstanding Committee reports that have to be adopted. The House is, therefore, pressed for time to consider the Bills and adopt the reports. There is, therefore, need to suspend Standing Orders Nos. 27 and 115 in order to provide additional time to consider all outstanding business before adjournment. It is for this reason that I propose that effective Tuesday, 26^th July, 2022, the House only adjourns when all business on the order paper is concluded on each sitting.

Madam Speaker, let me now inform the House that the meeting which commenced on Tuesday, 7^th June, 2022, would have sat for a total of thirty-two days on Friday, 29^th July, 2022. The House has so far considered seventy Questions for Oral Answer and adopted thirty-four reports of Standing and Select Committees. Further, twenty-one ministerial statements explaining the Government’s position on various national issues have been rendered. In addition, nineteen annual reports from Government ministries and quasi-Government institutions have been laid on the Table. Furthermore, by Friday, 29^th July, 2022, the House would have passed ten Bills and considered five Private Members’ Motions.

Madam Speaker, allow me to thank you most sincerely for the impartial manner with which you and the two hon. Deputy Speakers have handled the Business of the House throughout this meeting. Let me also take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude to the Clerk of the National Assembly and the staff for the professional services they continued to render to the House. In the same vein, I wish to extend my appreciation to the officers in the Parliamentary Business Division of the Office of the Vice-President, as well as all officers from the Government ministries and departments, who equally played a pivotal role in making this meeting successful.

Madam Speaker, last but not the least, I wish to extend my gratitude to all hon. Members from both sides of the House for their dedication to duty and the passionate manner with which they executed their duties during the meeting. This is as it should be.

Madam, as we adjourn, I wish to implore all hon. Members to go back to their constituencies and inspect the various Government and Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects so that together, we can develop the entire country.

Madam Speaker, this is a procedural Motion meant to merely adjust the sitting times of the House. Therefore, I urge all hon. Members to support it.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to make a few comments on the Motion moved by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House to suspend Standing Orders Nos. 27 and 115, in order to allow the House to transact the remaining business from Tuesday to Friday, next week.

Madam, we agree that this is a procedural and straightforward Motion. However, since we have missed an opportunity to engage Her Honour the Vice-President this morning, today being the last Friday before the House adjourns sine die, we would like to just convey some messages through the Acting Leader of Government Business.

Madam Speaker, firstly, we appreciate the hon. Minister’s encouragement that hon. Members should go and visit their constituencies and embark on different tours of duty, including inspecting constituency development projects, as it were. We would like the hon. Minister to assure this august House, as he is sitting next to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, that hon. Members of Parliament will be able to go into their constituencies freely, without fear of being intimidated like we saw what happened in Kwacha a few days ago, and that the ruling of this august House, by the previous Speaker and the current Speaker, that hon. Members should be permitted to visit constituencies, must be respected.

Madam, we would like Her Honour the Vice-President to further come and share with us an update on the recently held African Union (AU) Summit and to let us know why we ended up hosting four out of the thirteen Presidents, as it were.

Further, I would like Her Honour, as she comes to wrap-up and move a Motion to adjourn sine die, to also update this august House and through this august House, the nation on the status of the continuous voter registration which was pronounced by the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). I also want her to come and shed more light on the recent awards given to some former Heads of State because I know that the Her Honour the Vice-President is the Chairperson of the committee responsible for recognising and making recommendations on which citizens should be honoured. So, I want Her Honour the Vice-President to brief us on these matters so that we can go and explain to our colleagues on the continent who have expressed concerns on this matter.

Madam Speaker, we also want Her Honour the Vice-President to give the hon. Members information that they can go and share with the members of the public on the escalating cost of living. We want to see whether her theory of prices being increased in order to reduce the cost of living is now working.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, lastly, I want to see how Her Honour the Vice–President will give assurance or hope to the young ones, whose livelihoods have been shattered by being kicked out of the streets where they were transacting through the Electronic Platform (e-Platform). I mean the mobile money booths that were removed.

Madam Speaker, in supporting this Motion, I also want to see that hon. Members of Parliament are given enough time, now that we are going to have extended time, to deliberate on matters that come before this august House, to avoid the tensions that emanates from the limited time that is allocated to hon. Members of Parliament to debate and asking questions on the Floor of this august House.

Madam Speaker, we also expect some in-house matters that have been pending to be expedited so that as hon. Members are coming to work extra time, they know they will be able to get to their constituencies without fail, with these increases in fuel prices.  

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I support the Motion moved by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, who assured us yesterday that he was going to fill up the gap and take the Vice-President’s Question Time, but I do not know how he has changed on that commitment. Going forward, I want this matter to be addressed.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, this is a procedural Motion. The issue that is being discussed has been happening from one Parliament to the other. So, I do not see any reason we should have a lot of debaters on this Motion. There is no hon. Member from the Independent who wants to debate?  I will just allow one hon. Member from the Patriotic Front (PF) to debate and from that, we are going to have the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, indeed, this is a procedural Motion and it is non-controversial.

Madam Speaker, the reason I want to comment on this Motion is to say that consideration of Bills is major and serious issue on the Floor of the House. To have eight Bills at first reading at almost the close of the session of Parliament is quite alarming because Bills are supposed to be scrutinised properly by hon. Members.  Madam Speaker, it is in this House that a Constitution was passed and hon. Members were accused of not scrutinising things that they passed. We should avoid such kind of situations in this Parliament, especially that all hon. Members sitting here are well-educated.

Madam Speaker, another point to note is that as hon. Members of Parliament will be going back to their constituencies, the Executive should indicate to them what they should tell the people in their constituencies on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). CDF has not been released to the fullest and we all know that the President is on record encouraging us to use CDF and give it to the people. The Executive should indicate to us when it is going to finish disbursing the full sums for this year.

Madam Speaker, I also want to give credit to your Office for the manner in which you have handled business on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Lusambo: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon Members, on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) issue, I will be forced to allow the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to contribute to the debate but just before he comes in, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security can take the Floor.  

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for according me this opportunity to support the Motion that has been ably moved by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, Hon. Ambrose Lufuma.

Madam Speaker, in supporting the Motion, I want to respond to one or two issues that have been raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu. The hon. Member did raise a concern that hon. Members of Parliament would like to be assured that when they visit their constituencies, they will be able to transact their business free without any hindrance from any member of the public.

Madam Speaker, I want to make an assurance on the Floor of this House that the New Dawn Administration is ruling and ensuring that the rule of law and order is provided and assured to every citizen in this country. I would like to state that apart from one incident, from the time the New Dawn Administration ascended to governing this country, most of the hon. Members of Parliament and the members of the public have enjoyed freedom of association.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lusambo: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we are aware of where hon. Members of the Opposition have been holding meetings with the members of the public, selling their political agendas without let or hindrance. This has been happening. Even during elections, the hon. Members of the Opposition have been enjoying the freedom of association without any one hindering them from performing their duties.

Madam Speaker, this is as it should be. Zambia is a democratic state and we are going to ensure that members of the public enjoy their democratic space, even in Kabushi Constituency...

Mr Lusambo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... where under Patriotic Front (PF), we were never allowed to step a foot.   

The current hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi is enjoying his privilege, ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... apart from one sad incident that purportedly occurred in Kabushi. So, my hon. Colleagues should be assured that when they go to perform their duties as hon. Members of Parliament, the Zambia Police Service, if need be, will be available to provide security for them,  unlike in the past. They should be free.

Madam Speaker, I also want to let the nation know that we, on your right, are keen to visit our constituencies so that we celebrate with our electorates pertaining to the achievement of this good Government vis-à-vis the issue of the 30,000 teachers who have been recruited. Hon. Members may have noticed that Zambians are celebrating everywhere pertaining to this big achievement. I can assure them that on Friday next week, when another good announcement is made, more celebrations will take place.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we will need to be part of those celebrations in Kalulushi and in Kabushi, when people will be celebrating the recruitment of the new health workers.

Madam Speaker, I am also aware that as we celebrate the adjournment which is going to occur next week, we should always know that we are One Zambia, One Nation. We should not be seen to be dividing the nation. Let us work together for the betterment of this country.

Madam Speaker, I support the Motion and thank you. 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, there were some issues that were raised on the CDF. You may go ahead, hon. Minister.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this Motion. I also thank the Leader of Government of Business in the House for the proposal to suspend Standing Orders Nos. 27 and 115 in the week to come, to conclude all business on the Order Paper in order to allow the House adjourn sine die and allow hon. Members of Parliament to go home. 

Madam Speaker, I think it is the time for deep reflection for all of us hon. Members of Parliament because many times when we have Parliament meetings, we tend to forget the very essence of why we are here. My encouragement to all the hon. Members of Parliament is to make sure that they go to their constituencies and explain to their constituents the impact of challenges that the people of this country have faced, and not as a divide on the application and disbursement of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam Speaker, the truth has no disguise no matter how one would want to disguise it. It is the responsibility of hon. Members of Parliament to go into their constituencies and find out the impact of the allocation of the CDF on bursary sponsorship by the Government of the Republic of Zambia, under the leadership of the United Party for National Development (UPND) and its President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema. Hon. Members should also go and see if there are any children who have not been admitted into this platform for them to enjoy the free education policy and also, the inclusion in the bursary sponsorships for boarding learners.

Madam Speaker, it is an opportunity for hon. Members of Parliament to go and make an assessment to see how many people have been recruited in the skills training sponsorship by this Government. This is happening and the truth has no disguise. My encouragement to my hon. Colleagues is that they should gather many people who have talent, who have been left out of the formal education, to develop artisan training so that they can become self employed and become entrepreneurs.

Madam Speaker, it is the duty of all hon. Members of Parliament to go and explain to their constituents the bottlenecks that people have faced regarding the registration of co-operatives. There is always sunshine after the rain. There is an avalanche or congestion of the applications for co-operatives to be registered at the office of the registrar. It is the duty of every hon. Member of Parliament to encourage our citizens to be patient and tell them that as soon as we get over this avalanche of applications, which is a positive sign that people are willing to ride along with the Government programme, everything will be fine.

Madam Speaker, I heard one hon. Colleague saying that it is time for hon. Members to go and explain to the people that no money has been allocated and used under the CDF. That is very surprising. I am a believer in the fact that depending on where you are standing, you can see the world differently. However, if what a person sees is not reality, there is an English phrase for that, which is “an illusion.” If one lives in an illusion, it is time for one to face reality. The reality of the matter is that as I speak, as hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, I can confirm firmly that a number of by-elections are coming as a result of Councillors from both the Patriotic Front (PF) and our party, who have got jobs as teachers. Is that not an encouragement to the members of society?

Hon. PF Member: They can do both.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, someone says they can do both. It is clear that under the old regime, there were cases in which a teacher was also a District Chairperson for a political party.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Excuse me!

Madam Speaker, we are a Government that observes laws. So, anybody who takes a political party position must not be in the Civil Service.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkombo: That is what order is all about.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: The sabbatical is very short; it is about a month or so. I am urging all hon. Members to come out of the illusion at least, those who are in the illusion, to go and just put a signature on the Government programmes that are a life-changing experience for our people.

Madam Speaker, finally, I heard the issue about how we must explain the increasing prices of fuel to our constituents. Again, it is an illusion because this is happening in the whole world.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, we had the President of Italy who sat right there where you are, who confirmed that even in Italy, the prices of fuel are escalating.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, indeed, this is not supposed to be a controversial Motion, and our debates were not controversial in any way. However, the hon. Minister has decided to start touching on matters that border on the Constitution. He is talking about teachers who have been recruited and are already elected Councillors. He is intimating to the nation that we are going to have mass by-elections. He has taken a different twist, as that is a constitutional matter, and it is not for him to interpret how the Constitution is crafted as far as those office bearers are concerned. Further, when we said that hon. Members should be made to visit theie constituencies, we were not talking about the increases in fuel prices, which he is now trying to twist by saying that we are going to explain that to the people. The people know what is happening regarding the increment of fuel prices. We were saying that hon. Members of your august House –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: My point of order is: Is the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development in order to turn this Motion into a controversial one and start interpreting the Constitution as far as Councillors are concerned, and mislead the nation that we are going to have mass by-elections?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

It is like there are two points of order. On the first one, about the Councillors who were recruited as teachers, you have said that it is a constitutional matter. So, on that one, I reserve my ruling. Maybe, the hon. Minister, as he is winding up his debate, should try to be focused on the Motion at hand.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu’s point of order and I am awaiting the ruling whenever it does come. As I windup the debate on the Suspension of Standing Orders, I wish to state that  it is always good to recognise the good works that colleagues are doing. There is no harm. It does not take away anything to go and explain the Government policy because we are in the three wings of the Government. My encouragement to my colleagues in Opposition is to go and tell their constituents the truth because basically, we are products of an election. As for the Councillors who got jobs in the teaching service, they had resigned. If they had resigned, what do people expect? I apologise for telling the truth. 

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkombo: The truth has got no disguise.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister.

A point of order is raised by the hon. Member for Chitambo.

Mr Chilangwa: No, it is Kawambwa.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, he was there before you.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, thank very much for allowing me to rise on a point of order. Before the hon. Minister rose to give his statement, you gave a directive that he should explain on the CDF. In my submission, I was very clear. I said that hon. Members wanted to know when the Government would finish paying or disbursing the remaining balances of the CDF because we have only received about K6 million per constituency.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to politicise this matter and accuse us of not being real on the matters to do with the CDF, that we are not appreciative, when we are just merely trying to know when the Government will disburse the remaining CDF.

I need your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. Maybe, as the hon. Minister winds up his debate, he is going to touch on the last potion of the point of order by the hon. Member for Chitambo, which talks about when the remaining CDF will be totally disbursed.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, it was yesterday when I issued a ministerial statement regarding the status of the CDF. It was in March, when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, through me, made an announcement that the CDF was going to be disbursed quarterly. That is the Government’s position. I am surprised and extremely astonished as a matter of fact because these points of order are coming from individuals whom I first of all, did not even name. I am safe to mention the fact that in the past, some constituencies went for two years without receiving the K1.5 million (CDF).

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, as I am speaking now, we have disbursed K6.3 million to every constituency and today is 22^nd July, 2022. This is what I meant when I said that the truth has no disguise. Please, hon. Members, just take your heads off the sand like ostriches and tell the people the truth that this Government is working.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, hon. Members should go home. That is my final appeal. They should not sit here in the city. No one will harm them, as the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security has put it. There is no circular. There used to be draconian behaviour where hon. Members would get circulars from their seats allowing them to go and have meetings. Hon. Members should go and have freedom of their constituencies. They should not hide in the fact that there is a Public Order Act. This is a different Government which is promoting the freedom of association, freedom of expression –

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to thank both sides of the House, my hon. Colleagues on the left and right for contributing to this non-controversial and procedural Motion. However, there are a few items that I have to address as you have directed, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the first issue I want to address is the CDF. It should be very clear to each and every one of us that this Government is committed,  and as we have said, continues to emphasise that whatever has been planned in the Budget will be disbursed especially the CDF. We are not the Government that will promise and not deliver. We have noticed from the previous Governments that the disbursement of the CDF has not been consistent. We want to correct that situation. We want to be consistent because we want the grassroots to be able to access this money and participate fully in the economic dispensation of this country.

Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleagues on the left are assured that the quarterly releases will be done. It might not be in equal tranches or instalments but by the end of this year, all that has been planned to be disbursed on the CDF, a total of K25.7 million to each and every constituency, will be disbursed accordingly. The hon. Member for Chitambo should be assured that the CDF will be disabused. He should just prepare his communities to participate fully in the utilisation of this CDF.

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Member of Parliament and Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security for having clarified the issue of security in the constituencies. I think it very important to note that this is a democratic Government. We will observe the rule of law. In this rule of law, there is freedom of expression, freedom of movement and freedom of association. We will not hinder – On the contrary, the police are there to protect the hon. Members when they need protection.

Madam Speaker, it is also important for hon. Members as they go back to their constituencies not to forget to mention and explain to the people the achievements that this Government has been able to attain from the time it came into power to this period. This goes without saying that there are several things that have happened recently, like the recruitment of the 30,496 teachers and the 11,000 plus health workers. This has never happened before in the history of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) loan which we failed to secure in the previous Administration is in the bag. It is coming.

Mr Nkandu: Tell them!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, the investor confidence is solid right now. It is up there. Investment is coming. Hon. Members should go and tell the people about it. They should go and tell the people that plenty of the CDF of K25.7 million from K1.6 million is coming. 

Madam Speaker, peace and stability are very important but they have never been matched. Peace and stability are important because they are a prerequisite to any development.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

650 HEALTH POSTS PROJECT IN LUAPULA PROVINCE

381. Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Health:

        (a)   how many health posts, under the 650 Health Posts Project were allocated to Luapula Province;

        (d)  how the health posts were distributed, constituency by constituency; and

        (c)  at what stage of completion in percentage terms, the health posts were, as of September, 2021.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, out of the 650 health posts, sixty-four were allocated to Luapula Province.

Madam Speaker, the distribution of health posts was done district by district and not constituency by constituency. The following is the distribution of the health posts in Luapula Province:

District                                          Number of Health Posts

Chienge                                                     7         

Kawambwa                                               7

Mansa                                                        6

Milenge                                                     8

Mwense                                                     9

Nchelenge                                                 6

Samfya                                                      8

Lunga                                                        7

Chembe                                                     6

Madam Speaker, as of September, 2021, the stage of completion in percentage terms is as follows:

     (a)   Forty-five out of the sixty-four health posts are at 100 per cent;

     (b)  One out of the sixty-four health post is at 95 per cent;

    (c)  Nine out of the sixty-four health posts are at 70 per cent;

    (d)  Six out of the sixty-four health posts are at 30 per cent; and

    (e)  Three out of the sixty-four health posts are at 0 per cent.  

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, my point of order is directed to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. I sat here listening to the assurances being given by both the Acting Leader of the Government Business in the House as well as the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security regarding the non-disturbance of hon. Members of Parliament in their conduct of business.  

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Police Service through the Commissioner of Police on the Copperbelt actually was mocking the authority of Parliament through a press conference that she convened two days ago. There has been a ruling in this House by the former Speaker of the House, Hon. Matibini, to the effect that hon. Members do not require to get permit when convening or rather conducting activities. If anything, even giving the notice to the police is simply a matter of courtesy.

Madam Speaker, this ruling has been reaffirmed by the Hon. Speaker, Madam Nelly Mutti. It is therefore, shocking that the Commissioner of Police can convene a press conference to mock the authority of Parliament. We must understand that the Zambia Police Service and other units of the Government only manages or enforces laws that are created by this House.

Madam Speaker, if you make a ruling, it is the Zambia Police Service to enforce it. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security in order to assure us safe passage to carry out our duties when the Commissioner of Police on the Copperbelt is actually mocking the authority of Parliament?

Interjections

Mr Nkandu interjected.

Mr B. Mpundu: Ba Zambia National Marketers Association (ZANAMA), can I finish?

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: Is the hon. hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security in order to allow a commissioner to usurp the authority of Parliament by indicating that we must get notification when notification should only be a matter of courtesy by hon. Members of Parliament. 

Madam Speaker, I seek your ruling.

Madam Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Nkana Constituency, do we have evidence of that conference that was held by the Commissioner of Police?

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, we do have evidence. All the media houses carried that news and even the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is fully aware.

Madam Second Deputy Speaker: The rules of the House are that you are supposed to bring your evidence and lay it on the Table. However, what I can say is that, actually, the hon. Minister carries that ministry. So, whatever he brings to this House has to be followed. For other matters, I think the hon. Minister and the Commissioner of Police will attend to your issues. What the hon. Minister assured the hon. Members together with what Madam Speaker had ruled in this House, shall be obeyed and implemented.  

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the voice of Chienge to ask a supplementary question. I am wondering why the hon. Member for Mwinilunga has interest in Luapula. Last time, he stood on the Floor of the House and said that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government had sidelined the North-Western Province and took development to Luapula.

Mr Samakayi: Yes!

Rev. Katuta: Luapula is the least developed province. Madam Speaker, I want to know if this House will be allowing such questions which are bringing division! Luapula is the poorest province in this country ...

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Rev. Katuta: ... and we have nothing there, Madam Speaker!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Rev. Katuta: I want to know! What is his interest? He keeps on talking about Luapula!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Rev. Katuta: We are suffering! People are dying in Luapula!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Member!

Rev. Katuta: What interest does this Samakayi have in the people of Luapula?

Hon. Members: Aah!

Rev. Katuta: In Chienge, we are suffering!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Rev. Katuta: We do not even have the so-called hospital. What interest has he got? What kind of an hon. Member of Parliament is this who wants to bring division in the country?

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, we cannot allow this! Is he from Luapula –

Rev. Katuta’s microphone was switched off.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member! Hon. Member, order!

Rev. Katuta continued talking.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Member!

I am very shocked at the behaviour of the hon. Member for Chienge. Hon. Member, you were actually out of order to behave in that manner. We have got ways of submitting issues when we are not happy and not the way you have acted in this House.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members in this House have got the right to bring whatever question they feel like bringing because they are national leaders. However, if you are not happy, hon. Member, you should have found a better way of bringing your issue to the House. Moreover, this is your second term. That behaviour was not good and I am warning you. I will not send you out of the House, but this is just a formal warning with due respect that I have for you and the people that you are representing. If you are not happy, hon. Member, about anything that is said about your constituency or your people, there is a way of bringing that complaint to the Speaker, not shouting or doing whatever it is you want because your people are watching you.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The way I look at it, I do not know why the hon. Member for Mwinilunga brought this question to the House. It is a question that was submitted to be brought on the Floor of the House. So, if you have got any question, hon. Member, in line with this issue, you can go ahead. When I called you, I expected you to give me a supplementary question over this question on the Floor.

So, with that guide, hon. Members, let us be mindful of our behaviour because this is an honourable House. This is not our House. This House is for the people who sent us to be here. We are simply messengers in this House. This House belongs to the people who sent us to be here. So with that guide in mind, can we please proceed. What is your question, hon. Member?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, to you, I will apologise. However, allow me to ask a question. Out of the 650 health posts, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Health when we are going to be given the balance because we are supposed to get fifteen health posts.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I am very disappointed. I am not even sure what to answer. I am shocked actually.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: I am sorry, Madam Speaker, but I am at a loss for an answer.

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Alright.

Mrs Masebo: I am not sure if I even understood the question.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Frankly speaking, maybe, she may ask again.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Alright, hon. Member for Chienge, what is your question?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, my question is: Now that the hon. Minister has given us the number of rural health centres which were given to Chienge, when is the Ministry of Health going to give us the balance since we are supposed to have fifteen health posts  in total?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Health, I hope the question is clear now.

Mrs Masebo: Yes, Madam Speaker. Thank you.

Madam Speaker, in the answer that I gave, I did not talk about fifteen health posts. If she looks at the answer which I gave, I did not talk about fifteen health posts. I said seven health posts have been allocated to Chienge.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, in her statement, the hon. Minister has said that these 650 health posts are dotted around the country. I think I have four in Bwana Mkubwa ...

Mr Lusambo: Four?

Mr Mwambazi: ...yes, which are not even done. There is nothing yet. My question is: Those ones on which nothing has been done, what is the status of the ministry in terms of completing them?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the remaining ones will be completed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I am rising on a point of order in relation to Standing Order No. 65 on the hon. Minister of Health.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can go ahead.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I do not know whether it is the staff at the ministry who are misleading the hon. Minister. Standing Order No. 65 states that the information we give must be factual and verifiable because Zambians are following this Parliament as you said.

Is the hon. Minister of Health in order to mislead this august House by stating that Kawambwa District was allocated seven health posts, when in the actual sense they were four health posts? I can even mention the sites. Out of those four health posts, only two health posts have been completed. The remaining two are at slab level. All the four health posts are in my constituency. One health post is at Kota. It is complete and operational. The other one is at Lekuyumba, but nothing has been done. The one at Ntembo is complete. There is one at Mawaya, but nothing is there.  

Madam Speaker, is the ministry, therefore, in order to mislead the hon. Minister for her to come and announce to the Zambians who are watching and the people of Kawambwa in particular, that they were given seven health posts, putting us in harm’s way with the people of Kawambwa? They are going to say the hon. Minister of Health announced that there are seven health posts, but how come there are only four health posts. There is nothing in Kawambwa Central. Out of those four, only two are complete.  

I seek your serious indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you for that point of order. Since you are the area Member of Parliament for that constituency and you know how many health posts you were given very well, I will ask the Minister of Health to come to this House with a status of all the 650 health posts and the allocations for each of them. Do you have that information, hon. Minister?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let us listen to the hon. Minister, please.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, if you may recall when I gave the answer to question (b), I said, “Madam Speaker, the distribution of health posts was done district by district and not constituency by constituency.” So, when I said Kawambwa, it is Kawambwa District not constituency.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela: There is Pambashe!

Mrs Masebo: We have Pambashe and Kawambwa constituencies in Kawambwa District.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Firs Deputy Speaker: The hon. Members are looking at it from the constituency level. However, the hon. Minister is saying that the distribution was done district by district. With that guide in mind, we shall proceed.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, in answering to question (b), the hon. Minister said that allocations were done district by district. Would the hon. Minister be kind enough to tell us how the 650 health posts were distributed province by province because we are told Luapula only received sixty-four health posts?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: If the hon. Minister is prepared for that question, she can give an answer. Otherwise, the question was specifically for Luapula Province.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance. That really will be a new question and I do not want to mislead this House. Madam Speaker, earlier, you also guided that it will be helpful to give exact allocations province by province, district by district, and constituency by constituency. Maybe that information can be sent and laid to you so that hon. Members of Parliament can have that information.

Madam Speaker, however, you will recall that earlier, there was a question which was given to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning or the Leader of the Government House in the House, where there was a response to the fact that this Administration did make some changes in terms of allocations for those that were not yet done. For each province, we made sure that we had a minimum of something like seven health posts per district, if am not mistaken. I do not want to mislead the people. However, you will recall at that stage that you guided that we try and bring the whole list. So, I want to apologise and state that the list will be given hopefully by Monday, so that the information is in Parliament.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.  

Madam First Deputy Speaker: With that guide from the hon. Minister, do we have any more questions?

Mr Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, is it something different? All the information will be contained in what the hon. Minister will submit.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I think your instructions are very clear. I was basically going to ask that the hon. Minister does come back, not only with the category of the health posts but also, other health facilities that are doted across the country. We are a nation of ten provinces. Hon. Members have health posts, districts hospitals and mini-hospitals. It will be important that the hon. Minister does come back and brief the nation of how these health facilities are distributed across Zambia instead of attending to this mischievous question.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Health, should we give you time so that you can come back to this House, probably next week, on Wednesday, just to update or give full information that the hon. Members are requesting for?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, through you, is it possible that I do that ministerial statement in the next session since will be closing?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: How about Tuesday? Will you not be around?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The hon. Minister has agreed. It is just the matter of finding time when she can bring that information to the House.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, there is the information you asked for at first, where I said, I can send the list to your office on Monday morning. However, when the hon. Member asked for health facilities for the whole country, that is where I said I will need some time because he has asked that I give details of all the categories of health facilities in the country. You will recall that we had an issue over the same when we were doing recruitment because we ended up with ghost facilities. Besides, there is an audit that has been going on so that we get the actual number of facilities in the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think we need to be fair on the hon. Minister. She has already agreed to give us information on the health posts countrywide by Monday. The other information, like what she has explained, there is still an audit going on. So, maybe, when she is ready, she can come back to this House to update us on all the health facilities in the country. This way, the hon. Members will be aware of the health facilities that do exist in the country.

Thank you.

Mr Samakayi: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order but I am forced to with regards to Question 381, which has raised many problems. I can see that after you guided, some hon. Members are still referring to this question as mischievous.

Interruptions

Mr Samakayi: Is the hon. Member for Kamfinsa in order to say that this question was mischievous, even after you guided? I had a reason for asking this question. If the hon. Members really cared to know why I asked this question, they would appreciate where I ws coming from and going.   

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member for Kamfinsa in order to say that this question was mischievous?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I already guided on the value that we attach to questions that are raised on the Floor of the House. The hon. Member for Kamfinsa was definitely out of order because the question at hand was very important, not only for the hon. Member for Mwinilunga, but even for the people of Luapula Province. They have the right to know how many health posts were allocated to them. So, we should not look at this question politically. It is a very important question for the people of Luapula Province. So, we move on.

ERECTION OF COMMUNICATION TOWERS IN CHASEFU

382. Mr Nyambose (Chasefu) asked the Minister of Technology and Science:

(a)   how many communication towers were erected in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency in 2021;

(b)   how many towers are earmarked for construction in 2022; and

(c) when new towers will be erected in the following Wards:

1. Chizingizi;
2. Susa;
3. Manda Hill; and
4. Membe.

The Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati): Madam Speaker, nine communication towers were erected in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency in  2021.

Madam Speaker, in 2022, the Government is planning to construct twenty-four communication towers in various parts of the country.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that a tower in Membe Ward at Lupeta Hill was constructed and is on air, while a tower erected at Susa Ward is expected to come on air by the third quarter. Further, towers in other parts of Chasefu are being planned for and will be informed by the coverage gap analysis currently being undertaken.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that in the 2022, twenty-four towers will be constructed countrywide. Could he state the criterion that is going to be used to distribute these towers?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the criterion is simple. It is being informed by the coverage gap analysis that has been undertaken in areas where the network is really bad.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, Chasefu is one of the vast constituencies in the Eastern Province. It shares a porous border with Malawi. The majority of the part of Chasefu, which consists of Membe, Manda Hill, and Susa wards, are on the borderline, where there is no connectivity. Earlier, we heard that as we go to our constituencies, we should engage with our people. The challenge that we have in Chasefu is the number of towers that the hon. Minister has indicated are very few and are domiciled in the centre. Chizingizi, which is up in the hill, is not connected.

So, when do we start to see the construction of towers that are earmarked for 2022, at the borderline where the crime rate is very high because people are not able to communicate once there is crime? On behalf of the people of Chasefu, when are the towers earmarked for 2022 going to be commenced or commissioned by the Government?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, we do appreciate that Chasefu is vast in terms of area. The security of our people, particularly, those who are along the border is paramount, and communication is key. In our allocation and distribution of the towers that we have planned, those factors have been taken into account.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, the role of communication towers in unlocking development in rural areas cannot be underestimated. It goes without saying that the majority of our rural areas, especially those of us representing rural constituencies just like Chasefu, have this challenge. In opening up and growing the economy, this becomes very important.

Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, over and beyond Chasefu, does the Government have the plan to roll-out communication towers across the country, especially in rural areas? What time frame would the Government give, in that regard?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that good question. Currently, we have a deficit of around 700 towers across the country that we need to put in place. We are coming up with innovative ways of trying to meet this target. Under the current budgetary provision, we can only do a maximum of forty towers per year. The hon. Member would appreciate if he divides that into 700 because it would take a number of years. So, one of the initiatives that we undertook was to auction what is called the spectrum. In the auction of the spectrum, we realised US$41 million. So, we intend to plough this back into the construction of towers. We will be looking for other initiatives to accelerate the coverage. Our target is to reach 96 per cent coverage before 2026.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, thank you for according this opportunity to the good people of Lubansenshi.

Madam, I followed the hon. Minister as he was providing answers to this honourable House. How much is it going to cost to erect twenty-four towers and what will the distribution be in terms of districts or constituencies across the country?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the cost to erect a tower, historically, has been around US$200,000 per tower. However, with the advancement and improvement in technology, I think we can lower that cost significantly. We are working on alternative technologies to ensure that we reduce the cost so that we can plant a lot more towers. In terms of criterion, that will be informed by areas with the greatest need for connectivity as opposed to distribution purely by district.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, I am alive to the fact that Zamtel has been facing operational challenges. Is the hon. Minister going to engage other communication companies like MTN Zambia or Airtel Zambia so that the people of Chasefu can be provided with communication towers?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, indeed, Zamtel has considerable financial challenges. We do not expect it to add more towers particularly in 2022. The other operators are going to add to the towers, but the main source of the towers will come from what we call the Universal Access Funds (UAF). This is what we are using for the purpose of constructing the towers.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, the Government recently constructed about 1,009 towers and all these are Zamtel towers. I am aware that most of these towers are not operational. In short, they are not on air. Before we can embark on constructing new ones, it is possible that we can first finish or operationalise the remaining towers so that they are on air?

Madam, further, is it possible for the hon. Minister to come back to this House and give us information on how many towers are yet to be operationalised of the 1,009 towers?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, indeed, we shall come back to the House, suffice it to say that of the over 1,000 towers that were constructed, most of them were very short. In terms of the design and technology that was used at the time, it was, “wrong technology”.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: PF!

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, Chasefu nine, Mitete one. When will Mitete have the other eight?

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Technology and Science, although the question was specifically for Chasefu, you can respond if you have an answer.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, in all fairness, perhaps what will be equitable is for us to provide to the House the distribution of the towers that have been earmarked so that all hon. Members of Parliament can have that information, including the hon. Member of Parliament for Mitete.

I thank you, Madam Parliament.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister says that in their plan, they have 700 towers to erect and that they only have forty towers earmarked for erection per allocation. Looking at forty, we should be looking at more than ten years to erect those remaining towers. Are they comfortable with that plan of erecting towers for the next ten years in order to improve connectivity in the country or is there something they can do to increase the number?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, we already indicated that the target is to achieve 96 per cent coverage by 2026. This means that it will not take us ten years. We are going to look at alternative methods of financing, including the appropriateness of technology because some of the inactive towers are too short in terms of coverage.  So, we need to find how we can remedy that in order to increase and accelerate the coverage across the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

REHABILITATION OF FEEDER ROADS IN KAMFINSA FARMING BLOCK

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the humble and hardworking people of Kamfinsa have assigned me to asked question No. 383.

383. Mr Kang’ombe asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

       (a)   Whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate feeder roads in the following areas in Kamfinsa

               Farming Block in Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency:

              (i)         Kanshimu;

              (ii)        Misaka A and B;

              (iii)       Chipashi;

              (iv)       Katokamema;

              (v)        Chipolopolo;

              (vi)       Kawemi; and

              (vii)      Mwambonalimo;

(b)        if so, when the plans will be implemented;

(c)        what the estimated cost of the project is; and

(d)        whether the farming block is a beneficiary of the World Bank-funded feeder roads project.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to rehabilitate feeder roads in Kamfinsa Farming Block under the Integrated Rural Connectivity Project, which is implemented through the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development in conjunction with the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

Madam, the implementation process will commence with preliminary activities which include consultation and surveys of roads which were completed on 30^th December, 2021.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we have noticed that we are now coming late after tea break. Can we be mindful of time. Yesterday, there was no quorum for six minutes. Today, it is the same pattern. Can we please be mindful of time. We follow time in this House.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was in the process of answering part (c) of the question, which was seeking the estimated cost of these road works.

Madam Speaker, the estimated cost shall only be known once the tendering procedures and technical surveys are carried out.  As alluded to in (a) above, the farming block is a beneficially of the World Bank funded feeder road projects. The projects will cover a total of 66 km to provide connectivity as follows:

No.   Road No.          Road Description                                                  Surveyed length (km)

1       Kaf-u1              Chinkalamo to Chipashi Farm block                             2.570

2       Kaf-u2               Chibashi Farm block to Kanshimu Farm block            7.110

3       D249                 Kashimu Fram block to Misaka Farm block(D249)     11.132

4       Kaf-u3               Kawama farm block to Misaka Farm block(D249)      7.989

5       Kaf-u4               Mwbonalimo (T3) to Kawama Farm block                  14.414

6       Kaf-u5               Main Kamfinsa Farm block to M4 (Sakania)               22.800

         Subtotal – Kamfinsa farm Block                                                             66.012 

Madam Speaker, with these statistics that I suppose will not attract any further questions, I would like to thank you.

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving the people of Chifubu an opportunity to ask a question.

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister for the elaborate answer that he has given. I remain hopeful and very optimistic that the Government is going to carry out this programme.

Madam Speaker, Kamfinsa Constituency shares the border with Chifubu Constituency. There are some other areas that spill into Chifubu Constituency. My question is: How fast will the preliminary procedures take like survey, consultation and other procedures that the hon. Minister has mentioned before the commencement of the project? How long will this take because the people of Kamfinsa and Chifubu are waiting in anticipation?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, let me take my hat off and congratulate the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa for not rioting the way the other hon. Member rioted when an hon. Member from another constituency took interest to find out about the road network in Kamfinsa Constituency. Congratulations! This is how to become a national leader.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleague from Chifubu may have missed my answer to question (b). I said that the implementation process has commenced with preliminary activities which include consultation and survey of the roads. I also said that these were completed in December, 2021. So, that process the hon. Member is asking about has already been completed. We are simply now waiting for the tendering procedures and rolling-out of the programme.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.  

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, may I also thank the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development for the answers that have been provided on this very important project that is supposed to help the people of Kamfinsa provide enough food for the people of the Copperbelt.

Madam Speaker, the surveys have been done and the tendering process is underway. Would the hon. Minister be kind enough to indicate to the people of Kamfinsa Constituency, through their hon. Member of Parliament, the estimated time it will take before the works can actually commence? I think that we are excited. The World Bank funded road projects are very useful projects in the community, and I know the quality of workmanship from other areas.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, let me again thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa for his continuous push to get these projects expediently done. Yesterday, we had a conversation, him and I, on the Floor of this House, when he raised the issue of red tape or bureaucracy, simply put. I wish to tell my hon. Friend that this is a matter we are dealing with. Unfortunately, I am not able to give him an estimate time, but I can tell him now that it will be done in the quickest possible time because the President of this republic, like I said yesterday, is extremely concerned – Oh by the way, the President of this republic, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, is extremely concerned with the bureaucracies that are laid down in the Government procurement processes. He is very keen to make sure that we circumvent these without confronting the law.

So, the answer will be that maybe, it would be nice for the hon. Member to stop by at our office so that we can determine exactly at what level the process is. Like I told him in my answer, this is a project that is run side by side with my sister ministry, the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. So, we can put our heads together with his, because he is a material that is supposed to work very closely with this Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Local Government, Housing and Rural Development for those good answers. The people of Kamfinsa, especially in Misaka, have got an interest in these roads. Usually, we have had periodic maintenance. When these road are done, what measures will the Government put in place to ensure that the roads do not deteriorate back to being very bad roads and then the Government in essence should start spending a lot of money to repairing them? 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa for that question, which I consider very important because it speaks to the very essence of one of the three principles that this Government is operating upon, that being the cost, quality as well as timely delivery of services.

Madam Speaker, we are in the process of making sure that the quality of these roads that we are going to be building is going to stand the test of time. As the hon. Member may know, construction of anything comes according to specifications. So, it would be nice for him to just come and check when the contracts are through, what kind of specification would have been applied in signing these contracts. That is what would determine whether these are all-weather perennial roads or they are just low grade rehabilitation exercises. Our intention is go to the highest specification so that the roads can be durable and motorable for a period that will be meaningful with regards to the cost of making these roads.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Thank you, Madam Speaker, and welcome back. When you are seated there, I feel like sitting here until 1800 hours.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mung’andu: It is a fact. She presides over the affairs of the House so well.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

May you please go straight to the question.

Mr Mung’andu: Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: May I be protected from the hon. Member for Nkeyema and his counterpart?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, you have the Floor. Go ahead, hon. Member.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, clearly, the road sector situation in our country is gloomy.. In the past, the hon. Minister has given very realistic statements that just to clear the backlog under his ministry in terms of debt, it will take not less than forty years. We know that at national level, even under the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA), the debt stock that is there at the moment will not take less than thirty-three or forty years to be cleared, yet the people of Bwana Mkubwa, just like the people of Chama, need good roads. One cannot reach Chama due to this situation.

Madam Speaker, what magic is the hon. Minister going to deploy? We understand that under the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) arrangement, investors want to re-coup their capital within a reasonable period of time. In most cases in the road sector, it is less than twenty-five years. What sources of finances is the hon. Minister likely to use to attend to roads such as the ones in Kamfinsa and probably, the Chama/Matumbo and Chama/Lundazi roads?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, in my answer, I said that for Kamfinsa, the contracts are now under the tendering process. At this stage, it goes without saying that funds are now available for us to move to the next stage, which is that of construction. The hon. Member of Parliament for Chama South asked me a question about magic. I am not a magician and I do not see anyone here who has done any abracadabra. There is no magic to be performed here about a national construction. It is quite a wonder. The English described such a question as, “You are a victim of the very song you sang”. This debt that we envisage, if we proceed at the rate our erstwhile friends who were governing this country were, before they left, for us to be able to deal with it, we would need forty years. These were my words. They contracted debt without thinking there would be tomorrow. 

Madam Speaker, if one went on the ground to see what kind of work was done, like what the hon. Member for Kamfinsa has asked about, one would find that there was no quality work. This is the reason we, from the ministry have engaged the Office of the Attorney-General with the recommendation, now, I will let the cat out of the bag, not to renew the contracts under this road sector. That is not a World Bank sector, by the way. That is a separate package altogether.  However, since the hon. Members brought me down to the issue of the forty years repayment period, I want to say that we have recommended the Attorney-General’s office not to renew all the contracts that have since expired, whose contracts are held by some people in this Chamber. I have said it before.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

_______

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE ON THE REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL ON THE AUDIT OF UTILSATION OF COVID-19 RESOURCES FOR THE PERIOD FROM JULY, 2020 TO OCTOBER, 2021

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Audit of Utilisation of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), resources for the period from July, 2020 to October, 2021, for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 20^th July, 2022.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, my point of order is in pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 which states that the information that is brought on the Floor of this House should not only be factual, but also, verifiable. I am raising this point of order on our able hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has on several occasions accused your very innocent hon. Members on your left that they shared contracts within the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, the ministry which he is now heading.

Madam Speaker, not even a single day did the hon. Minister see hon. Members on your left including myself going to his office to request for payment for contracts which were awarded to us during the Patriotic Front (PF) Administration. The statement that the hon. Minister regularly issues on the Floor of this House, that the hon. Members on your left got contracts is misleading. People out there are watching and they will end up judging your very innocent hon. Members on your left from the statements the hon. Minister regularly issues on the Floor of the House, Madam Speaker. 

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in a position to lay the list of hon. Members who got contracts with his ministry on the Table of this august House? This is very important so that the country, particularly, the people of Chama know that their Members of Parliament, Hon. Davison Mung’andu and Hon. Mtayachalo, do not, and will never have even a single contract with this ministry? Is the hon. Minister able to do that instead of continuing to name and disparage the hon. Members on your left, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: From where I am, I heard the hon. Minister say, “Some of the hon. Members are seated here”.

Interjections

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! I am still making my ruling.

The hon. Minister clearly said, “Some of the hon. Members are seated here.” So, it is not all the hon. Members on my left. However, one of the rules of this House is that we do not debate ourselves. So, can we please observe the rules so that we do not discus ourselves.

However, if the hon. Minister has got proof, he can bring it to the House but, do we need that evidence in this House? The list should be taken to where it is supposed to be taken, and not to this House. It is not all the hon. Members on the left who are involved. So, with that guide, let us be mindful of what we say so that we are not discussing ourselves. So we move on. We have  a Motion that has just been introduced.

Is the Motion Seconded?

Mrs Sabao (Chikankata): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Speaker, based on its terms of reference, your Committee considered the aforesaid report of the Auditor General. I now have the privilege to present salient aspects of the report to this House.

Madam Speaker, your Committee realises that the fight against COVID-19 is ongoing and the end of the pandemic cannot be determined at the moment. Therefore, the fight against COVID-19 requires sustainable resource mobilisation in this regard. Your Committee observes that the National Disaster Relief Trust Fund which is provided for under the Disaster Management Act, No.13 of 2010 is a dependable mechanism that the Treasury can use to mobilise resources beyond the budget provision. The trust fund has the potential to greatly enhance revenue mobilisation and contribute to ensuring effective and efficient disaster management.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is however, concerned that even after your previous Committee recommended that the trust fund should be fully operationalised, it was still not operational at the time of the audit. In this regard, your Committee expresses concern and urges the controlling officer to prioritise the operationalisation of the trust fund without any further delay.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that while various irregularities were highlighted in the report of the Auditor-General on the audit of utilisation of COVID-19 resources, your Committee is disheartened by the glaring irregularities revealed in the report relating to the procurement of goods and services, poor contract management, and other malpractices such as cover bidding, product substitution, and violation of guidelines on the disbursement of loans.

Madam Speaker, the cover bidding by suppliers has the potential to stifle competition and this is contrary to the public procurement regulations. Unfortunately, the audit revealed that the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) and Ministry of Health awarded contracts to suppliers that engaged in cover bidding. Further, there were reported product substitutions in the Ministry of Health and the DMMU on the supply and distribution of face masks. 

Madam Speaker, you may also wish to note that the report revealed gross violation of youth empowerment guidelines, in the awarding of loans to beneficiaries, at the Ministry of Tourism and Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts. Your Committee finds it unacceptable that the said ministries could misconduct themselves in such a manner.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes that these irregularitiesrampant violation of the provisions of the Public Procurement Act, No.8 of 2020, and the Public Procurement Regulations, and the failure to comply with the Treasury and the financial management circulars, with impunity.

Madam Speaker, in light of these violations and irregularities, your Committee recommends as follows:

Your Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury to ensure that the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) and the National Arts Council (NAC) guidelines are fine-tuned and strengthened so that weaknesses in the identification of beneficiaries, disbursement of funds and monitoring of the projects are eliminated. Your Committee also urges the Secretary to the Treasury to ensure that all beneficiaries violating the terms and conditions of contracts have their loans recalled without delay.

Your Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury to impress upon the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts to put measures in place which will ensure the undertaking of due diligence when identifying beneficiaries of youth empowerment funds without fail. Your Committee also urges the Secretary to the Treasury to propose measures to enhance the loan monitoring and recovery mechanism in the ministry.

Madam Speaker, your Committee expresses concern at the laissez faire attitude adopted by the Ministry of Health and DMMU officials in receiving face masks contrary to specifications, a move which is fraudulent and suspicious. In view of this, your Committee urges the controlling officer to report the involved suppliers to the Zambia Public Procurement Agency (ZPPA) for appropriate action. Your Committee also urges the controlling officers to ensure that the actual cost of N-95 face masks is established against KN-95 face masks, so that the difference is paid by the suppliers without fail.

Madam, your Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury to impress upon all controlling officers in the cited ministries and spending agencies to ensure that all irregularities on the procurement and distribution of supplies and the awarding of empowerment loans and grants, which are of criminal nature, are reported to the relevant investigative agencies for further investigations.

Madam Speaker, in my conclusion, your Committee is grateful to you and the Office of the Clerk for the support rendered to it during its deliberations. Your Committee also pays tribute to all stakeholders for the various roles they played during the deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mrs Sabao: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chikankata, (seconder) maybe just before you come in, there is a point of order by the hon. Member for Solwezi East.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to our Standing Order No. 234, which is on the presence of a stranger in the House. May we know if the people in the gallery are strangers because we are in this House without the knowledge of these people.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: According to the rules of this House, the visitors who are usually in the Speaker’s Gallery are the ones who are introduced to the House. However, any member who comes and sits in the right and left wings up there are not supposed to be introduced to the House. It is their right to come and observe what goes on in the House.

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, in seconding the Motion, let me thank the mover for the able manner he has highlighted the issues that were deliberated upon by your Committee. In this vein, I will make a few comments on two other issues that caught my attention.

Madam Speaker, in this report, the Auditor General had recommended that a forensic audit be conducted at the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) to determine the authenticity of the receipt and disposal record up to the point of utilisation of medical supplies procured using the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) resources. In this regard, your Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury to render the necessary support to the Office of the Auditor-General in order for the said forensic audit to be undertaken on ZAMMSA without delay.

Madam Speaker, another issue that was exposed by the Auditor-General in his report under the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts is the failure to develop a communication strategy by the ministry, which was reported to be funded. In view of this, your Committee bemoans the laissez faire attitude adopted by the ministry in the development and operationalisation of a robust and comprehensive communication strategy meant for the Government youth empowerment programmes.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also finds it unacceptable that this critical activity which was funded was not developed and operationalised. In this regard, your Committee sternly cautions the controlling officer at the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts on the failure to develop a communication strategy and urges that the said strategy be developed and operationalised without fail.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me also, to join the mover of the Motion of your Committee in thanking you for according us the opportunity to serve on this important Committee. I also wish to thank the hon. Members of the Committee for according me this opportunity to second the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, I want to appreciate the report as proposed by the mover, the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee, and seconded by his deputy, the hon. Member for Chikankata.

Madam Speaker, the report on the utilisation of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) resources makes very sad reading. When there is a calamity, panic and people’s emotions are high in the nation, opportunities to loot are identified by those with ill motives. It is very clear from this audit report that whilst the nation was engulfed in fear for people’s survival, others saw the opportunity to loot.

Madam Speaker, this report is littered with, just among others, things such as irregular procurements. Those are the kind of observations one would find in this report. In this report, there are irregularities such as, the COVID-19 relief support being given to entities that did not qualify, questionable disposal of stocks at the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency ZAMMSA, irregular payments without the approval of the Secretary to the Treasury, irregular disbursement of loans to beneficiaries and in some instances, disbursement of relief funds to non-existent entities, over priced and inflated procurements, irregular withdraw of cash, and questionable procurement of reusable face masks.

Madam Speaker, the list is long, but I will end with the following one: Unaccounted for face masks which may never have been delivered, but for which funds were paid. This is very sad indeed.

Madam Speaker, the funding that was made available for COVID-19 had two things it needed to achieve. One was to fight the pandemic itself in the form of the procurement of medical supplies that were needed, such as face masks, test kits and other related items. The other one was to support entities in the sectors that were highly affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and these were primarily in the Ministry of Tourism and in the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts.

Madam Speaker, I fully endorse this report. I want to reiterate the statement made by the seconder of the Motion that your Committee has recommended a forensic audit as this is the only way the nation will know what transpired during the COVID-19 pandemic era.

We say that sometimes people create a crisis beyond what it actually is to justify the use of the term, “emergency procurement”. Emergency procurement procedures were unbelievably abused during the COVID-19 pandemic. Even when the time came and entities were able to plan for the kind of items they were going to need in order to mitigate the impact of COVID-19, they continued to use emergency procurement procedures.

Madam Speaker, these people cannot be allowed to go unpunished. Millions and millions of Kwacha and Dollar were spent in questionable procurements. Some equipment and face masks were paid for but never delivered. There was no small payment. All of the payments were in millions of Dollar or Kwacha. This blatant abuse of public resources cannot go unpunished.

Madam Speaker, it is not only the money that was abused which people must account for. There was also physical abuse of citizens in this country. We saw the so-called leaders going around with whips in order to fight COVID-19. To this day, I do not know how a normal person could go around fighting such a dangerous disease with a whip. If I were to take this opportunity, I would appeal to the people who were abused to take that abuse they suffered as it were, way outside the law, to the relevant authorities so that action can be taken and people are held to account.

Madam Speaker, we know that whenever people do not realise the limits of the law, they abuse both the people as well as the resources. If the Government will let the people that abused the resources without punishment, we will set a very bad precedence. I, therefore, wish to propose that we go beyond just a forensic audit of the items that were identified in the Report of the Auditor General but also, determine to what extent we might have mafia cartels in terms of procurement in this country.

Madam Speaker, our Civil Service is due for a major cleansing process because it has mastered this art. Ultimately, the common man on the street is suffering. So, I want to suggest that when a forensic audit commences, it should be extended to determining the collusion and colluding that goes on in the procurement of these items so that suppliers who are found guilty are blacklisted. The law must take its course on civil servants that may be found guilty.

Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for the opportunity given to me to contribute to this report.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chilubi an opportunity to contribute to this report.

Madam Speaker, in the first place, the people of Chilubi would like to state that public procurement and other related matters, if not taken properly, could be laced with emotionalism, which I think, at the end of the day, may not benefit the country at large. Having said that, I want to say the report before us, concerns public health issues that do not just deem within the boundaries of Zambia. The Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) is a public health concern that was declared as a public health of international emergency by the World Health Organisation (WHO). That being the case, it meant that countries which were observing the phases of how COVID-19 was prowling, would have had gone into institutional preparedness, which Zambia equally participated in.

Madam Speaker, we are likely to overshadow some of the successes that we would have been scored as a country, if we just got involved in emotionalism as opposed to looking at the whole picture.

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, allow me to address myself to some issues, which were suggested in the report. For instance, the report suggests that –

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Fube: Are you sure, I will be shaken when you say, “Question”? Try another day.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, just continue with your debate.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I need to be protected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You are protected. Just continue with your debate.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the report talks about the Zambia Public Procurement Agency (ZPPA) and suggests that ZPPA must avoid issuance of blanket authority on emergency procurement. We need to know that emergencies by nature are emergencies as they may be. This means that, some of the emergencies that we may encounter now or in future, would be linked to what used to be in Articles 30 and 31 of the Constitution, were we have the “Declaration of Public Emergency a Threatened Emergency” and “Declaration relating to threatened emergency” by the President. Therefore, we should have a procurement system that should respond to such emergencies when the law takes its course.  If we look at Articles 30 and 31, the Declaration of Public Emergency and Declaration relating to threatened Emergency, you will realise that Parliament also gets involved in the process. Further, the Public Finance Management Act No. 1 of 2018, explains the process of how some procurement processes are supposed to be responded to.

Madam Speaker, having said that, I also want to talk about the different agencies that covered situations. Other than the Disasters Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), there are three ministries talked about in this report, namely the Ministry of Youth, Sports Art, the Ministry of Health, and the Ministry of Tourism. However, I think we have mixed them up in terms of procurement matters.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to the issue of loans, there is need for this country to have a non-partisan stance, especially that each and every Government that comes usually politicises the issuance of loans, either through the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ) or any other institution.

Madam Speaker, there is even no need for the current Ruling Party or Government to get excited that the procurement system can be cleaned overnight. When we venture into saying we think some officers are erring and the like, we may end up victimising our fellow Zambians. I think there is need to close where the haemorrhage is being caused. If need be, the Public Procurement Act should be brought to Parliament to see how it can tally with the Public Finance Management Act because by the time the Finance Management Act and the Public Procurement Act are implemented, certain things may not be matching. So, in times of emergencies, we will be shooting in the dark if we just lace this matter with emotions.

Madam Speaker, allow the people of Chilubi to address the issue of loans that were given to the artist and many others. I still want to emphasise –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, I can hear a lot of noise. I cannot listen to the debate on the report. Can we please lower the voices?

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I still want to emphasise on the issue of institutional capacity. Institutional capacity will protect many people because each Government that comes in should bank on the laid legal and policy frameworks. That should be respected as such because the legal and the policy frameworks are supposed to be taken in as instruments of the State to guide public policy and law.

If we individualise and politicise the system, we will be going back and forth on the same issues as opposed to attacking the main problem. Even now or in future, if we do not create a solid framework, the issue of giving loans will be based on patronage. I can ask a fair question. If we were to give loans to artists who are supposed to receive loans, what would happen? We have seen how people have been presenting themselves saying, “No, I was victimised because I was viewed as a United Party for National Development (UPND) member”. We have also seen how officers are being reshuffled to different offices. The same applies even to the issues of artists. We have all been availed with augments on social media and many other factors, but what we are talking about here are Zambians. Whether they belong to the Patriotic Front (PF), UPND, United National Independence Party (UNIP) or the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD), they are Zambians.

Madam Speaker, in this case, we all ought to know that be it now or in future, the Government remains the richest institution because if it creates contracts and loans, Zambians will benefit. Zambians are supposed to benefit from the Government contracts and loans. They are supposed to be subjected to a solid framework which is above board and political partisanship. This means that it should be apolitical such that it becomes a framework that can be used to measure who should benefit from these public resources.

Madam Speaker, I want to end by saying that much of the developments that were reported by your Committee were more reactive than proactive. What I mean by that is that we have mainly been reacting to situations as opposed to institutions that should govern the nation. Under the Nation Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD) and many others, we have economic management systems. We have also borrowed a lot from the regional economic –

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to start shouting as if there is no microphone to be used?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think that should be a request, is it not? It is not a point of order.

Hon. Member on the Floor, you may continue, but be mindful of the voice.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, you realise that some of us, from childhood, we were taught about voice projection. You will forgive my vocal cords because they are already spoiled in some way.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue with your debate.

Mr Fube: The hon. Member has disturbed me. I know he just wanted to disturb me. I will see him outside, anyway.

Rev Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, before the hon. Member disturbed me, I was trying to consolidate and finalise my debate by saying that we need to create systems that are above board and apolitical. We should create systems that any Government should not say, “No, this system did not fit here,” and we start an argument for the next five years.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Katombola to contribute. With your authority, may I remove my facemask?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: It is not allowed because we are a bit congested.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I have a health condition, but I will continue.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, the people of Katombola support the report that has been presented but also, express very serious dismay over what was happening previously or what happened in the management of public resources. We are particularly, concerned with the level of looting that appeared to have taken place. At this moment, the people of Katombola wish to request the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to take keen interest in the report that has been submitted to this august House through your able Committee.

Madam Speaker, we are particularly concerned with what was reported on page 34 of the report, where a company, which was not incorporated, was engaged to supply goods during the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) period and goods were supplied before a contract was executed. The amounts involved are so worrying to the people of Katombola. This money could have taken us a long way. Today, the Government is fighting debt in trying to develop rural areas. Some of us do not have telephone network and roads in our constituencies. There is nothing and yet, we see such huge figures of monies that ended up in people’s pockets.

Madam Speaker, on page 35 of the report, there is an issue of the supply of facemasks. The abrogation of the procedure that is set out in the Public Procurement Act was quite colossal and we, the people of Katombola are highly dismayed. We urge the investigative agencies of the State to move very quickly. I will also be sharing this report with them through a complaint. Today, the people of Katombola are very sad to hear in the report that such huge sums of money ended up in people’s pockets through companies that are not even incorporated. They are not happy to hear that goods were supplied before a contract was executed. This is very sad. The Government is trying to look for money to borrow when such huge sums of monies ended up in people’s pockets.

Madam Speaker, the people of Katombola support this report and urge investigative urgencies to move very quickly without having to wait for any report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, thank you for your kindness and for permitting the good people of Lumezi to speak to this report.

Madam Speaker, let me take you to page 66 of this report, where a questionable fuel tanker loan was issued to Gishy Multi-Purpose Co-operative. That was a questionable loan. For so many years, the Public Accounts Committee has been bringing out financial irregularities on how public resources are managed and utilised.

Madam Speaker, permit me to mention that I have taken some good time to read the report. What vindicates most of us, both on the right and the left is that no one has been mentioned as having been amongst those who could have misused or misappropriated public funds. So, sometimes one tends to wonder why hon. Members of Parliament decide to call each other names when the report is clear.

Madam Speaker, on page 6 of the report, your Committee urges the Secretary to the Treasury to put in measures which will ensure the undertaking of due diligence when identifying beneficiaries of youth empowerment funds without fail. Your Committee did a commendable job. It should now be a source of concern to us who are in here as to why we should be the first victims of investigative wings purely for being in public office when the people in charge of procurement are left scot-free. We are enemies of our own.

Madam Speaker, this is a thorough report that has brought out issues of suppliers not paid. For instance, your Committee urges the Ministry of Health to pay to avoid incurring interest. Further, the report is clear on page 4, where your Committee urges the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to ensure that the Citizen’s Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) and the National Arts Council (NAC) guidelines are fine-tuned and strengthened so that the weaknesses in the identification of beneficiaries’ disbarment of funds are eliminated. The report is neither referring to the hon. Minister nor the hon. Member of Parliament, but on several occasions, it has mentioned controlling officers.

Madam Speaker, on page 58, the report talks about the Supply of Faulty Ventilators, which developed oxygen sensor failure, and limited functionalities.

Although your Committee says it is waiting for the progress report, what is strange is that on page 66, the company name was mentioned but on page 58, the supplier of these forty ventilators has not been mentioned. How I wish this supplier was equally mentioned so that this House continues to debate knowing there are innocent men and women in this House. If the suppliers of these forty ventilators are here, they should be named in the report so that the people who have developed a culture of calling us on the left as suspects are vindicated.

Madam Speaker, on page 30, there is questionable identification of suppliers involving K63,090,000. Although your Committee is awaiting a progress report, it will realise that had the good people of Lumezi been allocated this much money, they would not have had communication problems. I know that my brother from Nkana who cries about a 10 km stretch on the Chibuluma Road, which is bad, that would have been sorted out.

Mr B. Mpundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: However, the technocrats who manage these funds have for so long enjoyed immunity and taken advantage of the whole situation because they know very well that the investigative wings only pay attention to politicians and not them.

Madam Speaker, Chester Arthur said, “The extravagant expenditure of public money is an evil not to be measured by the value of that money to the people who are taxed for it”. For so long, and even next year, we shall be discussing the same things.

Madam Speaker, in agreeing with the hon. Member for Katombola, I wish to state that it is time investigative wings pretended that politicians do not exist and go for the actual culprits who are in this perpetual habit of misusing public funds.

With these few remarks, Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe pressed the button on the microphone repeatedly.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Just press once and hold on.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I thank you most kindly. My brother from Nkana here is complaining that I have taken his slot to speak. Can I –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Never mind. We are mixing voices. We want to hear from the Independent, Patriotic Front (PF) and United Party for National Development (UPND) Members.

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I will not take much of your time and that of this House. Those who have spoken before me have been able to speak to the specific issues that have been highlighted in the report. My role this afternoon is to talk about one important aspect which I think is very critical as we look forward to tackling issues of wasteful public expenditure.

Madam, every Government institution has what is called an “Internal Audit Department.” The role of an Internal Audit Department is to ensure that before funds are spent, there is compliance with the prescribed regulations. I am also aware that most Government departments in Zambia are manned by qualified people in terms of academic.  I am also aware that those manning these Internal Audit Departments have the right experience in terms of length of service. So, every time a report of this nature comes, the question we must ask ourselves is: Should we wait for an external auditor from the Office of the Auditor-General to travel all the way to a remote district to do the work which can be done by an Internal Audit Department of a Government institution?

Madam Speaker, my message this afternoon is to our colleagues who are responsible for internal audits. Before these funds are wasted or misdirected to procurement, which should not have taken place, how are we ensuring that the effectiveness of these Internal Audit Departments is enhanced? I think there should be more focus on systems. I want to agree with the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi that as we speak to the problems in this report, we ask ourselves what we are doing to ensure that systems that have been put in place are enhanced. We do not need an external auditor to go and do the work that can be done by an Internal Audit Department. I do hope that the professional body that is responsible for these accountants will be able to reflect on some of the findings that keep appearing in these reports, on both the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA), and  internal audit procedures.

Madam, it is about time we dealt with systems that are already in existence and ensure that they are enhanced.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity to comment on the report. I will restrict myself to two issues that have been highlighted in the report. Permit me to start by commending your Committee for the report which was ably moved by the hon. Independent Member of Parliament for Bwana Mkubwa. Well-done, Chairperson and the Committee!

Madam, we have watched and followed the Public Accounts Committee’s deliberations. Your Committee has done a fantastic job throughout its engagement. I will therefore, restrict myself to two issues namely, the utilisation of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) funds from July, 2020 to October, 2021, and the empowerment funds.

Madam Speaker, as I intimated, we recognise the efforts being put in by your Committee in highlighting glaring issues in these procurement entities. I am, however, saddened that despite these glaring jaw breaking revelations that are brought out by the Parliamentary Audit Committee (Public Accounts Committee), we see very little action being taken by responsible wings of the Government. I have in mind a deliberation that brought out a debt swap that happened in the Government where it owed K18 million towards the fertiliser procurement and paid out, if I am not mistaken, K60 million as a debt swap. Where I sat, I could not believe that such a thing could have happened. I have been waiting to see what action would follow after that jaw-breaking revelation, but, alas, up to now there has been nothing. One would wonder whether the work of this brilliant Committee just goes in vain.

Madam, let me take an opportunity to commend the Ministry of Health, both those who sat in the offices then and now, for their efforts to combat the COVID-19 pandemic.

Mr Nkandu interjected.

Mr B. Mpundu: Please ba (Zambia National Marketeers Association (ZANAMA), let me finish.

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, we all know that at the time COVID-19 hit our country, there were advanced economies that suffered more damage than this country. Numerous deaths were recorded in other countries in Europe and America, yet we recorded what others would say, “Minimal numbers.” I thank the ministry’s efforts to update us from time to time over its interventions. At some point, I was an advocate of closing our borders because of the cases that were coming in, but I think due to the wisdom of those who were in the offices, we saw them being adamant and maybe, it was wisdom given by God.

Madam, the same has continued now. Our ministry officials have continued to provide leadership in the fight against COVID-19. I want to commend them for these efforts, not forgetting frontline officials from the Ministry of Health who have continued to risk their lives to save the damage that would have been caused to this country.

Madam Speaker, what catches my mind in this report is the issue that has been brought out by the Auditor-General, which is the caution that has been given in regard to emergency procurement.

Madam Speaker, emergencies are unforeseen. The law must always provide for procurements in times of emergencies. In the report, the Secretary to the Treasury has actually indicted that they have since made amendments to the issue of emergency procurements. We must be very careful. The hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa and I have brought issues of challenges of water in Kitwe to this House and whenever there is a problem of water, it must be treated as an emergency.

Madam Speaker, you will be shocked that because of these cumbersome procurement procedures, a contract that was signed last year in December to address issues of water in Kitwe, up to date, it has not been actualised. The papers are still sitting in the Attorney-General’s Office. If we do away with emergency procurement procedures, I wonder what will happen to the many issues of emergency. As we address these issues, yes, mistakes can be made but we must also be cautious of how we set aside some things that are relevant in addressing problems that we are confronted with everyday.

Madam Speaker, let me address issues of empowerment funds and accountability. It has become very common that most of the money that is given out in terms of empowerment is never accounted for by way of people who get loans having to pay back. We have a number of empowerment initiatives that I can highlight. For example, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Art has the youth empowerment fund. There were initiatives that gave out tankers and HIGER Buses to the youths. To date, this report has brought out issues of lack of follow-ups to ensure that those who got those loans pay back

Madam Speaker, there are many other empowerment initiatives. There is the food security pack under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. There is the village banking which has performed poorly in many districts except for Kitwe, where it performed well when I served as the District Commissioner. The Farmer Input Support Program (FISP) is also another empowerment programme where again, farmers continue to struggle to pay back the loans.

Madam Speaker, these empowerment programmes are dotted in many ministries and today, we are discussing the failure to account for these funds. The Government is said not to be in the business of giving out loans. The challenge we have today is that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is also being used for loans yet we know that the Government is not in the business of giving out loans. That is why up to date, we still struggle to give out loans because we are trying to grapple with issues of modalities to be employed in order to give out these loans.

Madam Speaker, therefore, it is my humble feeling that we should have identified institutions that would have managed all these empowerment initiatives in all these ministries. The Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) was created as a vehicle to manage issues of funds being loaned out to individual or companies. I wonder why we still continue to give out empowerment funds disregarding the vehicle that we identified. That could have been critical because there are competent people who can handle issues of loans as well as repayment.

Madam Speaker, it is my considered view that instead of sitting in this House year in and out, reading reports of this misappropriation of funds, time has come that we must ask ourselves as to why we continue to go on that path.

Madam Speaker, they say, insanity is doing the same things and expecting different results. I think we have been an insane country and we need to change our path.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you so much for allowing the people of Mbabala to share their voice on the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor General on the Audit of Utilisation of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (Covid-19) funds.

Madam Speaker, it is very disheartening for the people of Mbabala to see that whilst people were given an opportunity to change the lives of many others, who were afflicted or affected by the COVID-19, others saw it as an opportunity to squander and abuse those funds.

Madam Speaker, this Motion has been ably moved by the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa and seconded by the hon. Member for Chikankata, Madam Jacqueline Sabao.

Madam Speaker, the report demonstrates a lot of irregularities. The whole report is littered with irregularities in a number of areas. Just like my hon. Colleagues have done, I will just cite a few irregularities, such as the poor selection of artists.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, we talked about the youth policy. The Government that failed to implement or come up with a youth policy had the audacity to give these loans to some artists under the youth empowerment programme. That resulted in people indeed, born in the 1960s and 1970s accessing these funds, when in the actual fact, they were way above the youth groups as defined by the United Nations (UN).

Madam Speaker, these funds were simply dished out as no formal guidelines were developed. We have seen the professional work of the hard working hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development in the development of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) guidelines in the disbursement of various funds. However, in this case, there were no guidelines. These funds were just given out and hence, it has been very difficult to recover or see any impact from these funds. Instead, the accessibility of these funds was based on cronyism and various ways of nepotism. This is because the youths with disabilities but capable, for example, in  Mbabala Constituency, were never allowed to access these funds simply because they knew nobody. What the Government has demonstrated in the teacher recruitment is an excellent job. This is where people were able to access something ...

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munsanje: ... even when they did not know anybody. They were selected –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you very much for giving the people of Chilubi an opportunity to raise a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65(a)(b) on the content of speech. 

Madam Speaker, I am raising a point of order which has been raised several times in this House. The hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor keeps on talking about how resources were plundered, how tribalism was involved, and many other factors. The report is specific on what your Committee tackled.  I think this culture that we seem to be going in, where we are debating issues which are very much away from the report, specially using scandals that happened in the past and many other factors, is what is causing emotions in this House. Is the hon. Member in order to always debate on political lines and away from the contents of the report?

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: For the sake of progress, the hon. Member on the Floor, can you please be factual and it would be very helpful if you stuck to the report. Just discuss the report.

You can proceed.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, thank you so much. The report is very clear. If the hon. Member cared to read the report, he would find what I am talking about.

Madam Speaker, there was insider trading. For example, the Secretary-General of the National Arts Council was awarded K354,712 for his music company. Is this not in the report?  

This is what we talk about. This is a scandal. Insider trading is not allowed by law. You cannot be Secretary-General of an organisation and then –

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutale: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. My point of order is also about Standing Order No. 65, content of speech. I am worried. The hon. Member has demonstrated to the House that there were no regulations which were adopted by the Government in the disbursement of funds to the youths and that is why monies have not been recovered or were misused.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts is on record on television showing us how much money he has recovered so far from the youth empowerment programmes. The hon. Member there debating has not laid down on the Table any evidence to show that there were no regulations. I know that the Government operates in an orderly manner.

Madam Speaker, is he in order to mislead the nation that for sure when the Government was disbursing funds to the youths, there were no regulations to follow.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. I have already guided. The hon. Member on the Floor, can you please be factual. The whole nation is listening to what you are saying. Let us try to be factual. You may continue.

Mr Munsanje: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think the report is very clear. It basically indicates that there were no guidelines that were produced for these various funds that were disbursed for various empowerment programmes. So, it is in the report which is on the Table. All of us have access to it. The report clearly indicates that there were no guidelines which were produced. So, the guidelines that are there have been produced under the able, hardworking leadership of Hon. Elvis Nkandu here, who is making a change for our youths in Zambia, under the able leadership of His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema, Commander of the Armed Forces and President of the Republic of Zambia,  and ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: ... President of all Zambians, who is inclusive. He wants to love all the Zambians and wants them to succeed.

Madam Speaker, we are talking about a very clear case of things not being done with discipline in terms of leadership. At that time, there was failure in terms of bringing in professionalism. We have got institutions such as the Institute of Directors of Zambia (IoDZ) and the Zambia Institute of Purchasing and Supply (ZIPS) that could have guided on governance. All these bodies were ignored and could not participate or support the various processes when we had this emergency. If it was an emergency, we were supposed to invite these institutes to help us and do things above board.

Madam Speaker, the failure to recover these various empowerment programmes as cited in the report was because of inertia and indeed, like I mentioned, the guidelines that were missing as well as lack of monitoring, which is also stated in the report. It is stated that there was no monitoring mechanisms for these programmes.

Madam Speaker, we are now calling for the law enforcement agencies like the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Zambia Police Service and many other agencies to work with the ministry and various agencies to recover these funds and follow up on the people who got them. We need these monies in Mbabala Constituency for us to fix our bridges that collapsed as a result of natural disaster. We were faced with a natural disaster. These people got free money in the name of attending to a disaster. We want these funds to come and help us fix our bridges. We have bridges in Pinda and Kachenje that need to be fixed. On the Pemba Road, there are bridges that need to be fixed. There are also many other areas that need things to be fixed.

Madam Speaker, we want to provide water for our people from these funds. Right now, our youths are being trained. These youths will need to get jobs. They will need to create their own jobs out of various requirements. If these funds are redistributed properly and they are allocated to us, our youths will have something to do. They will be productive and they will be able to produce and create a value chain of employment and have quality lives for their families. They will ensure that they support the new agenda of the New Dawn Government. This is a Government that is above board, and it is scoring every day. It is a Government that is changing the lives of Zambians.

Madam Speaker, this report –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired. 

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, I support the actions of this report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I promise to just take about five minutes in my debate to cite salient points contained in the report of your Committee on Public Accounts on the report of the Auditor-General on the utilisation of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) funds.

Madam Speaker, the big and most important word or phrase in this is the “control environment.” The control environment was very weak, and it was purposefully made to be like that. That is the reason we are where we are. That is the reason the report has glaring situations that have been reported by your competent Committee.

Madam, let me talk about the indicators of weak internal controls. One of the most important indicators of weak internal controls is how transactions are managed. The control environment is supplemented with pieces of legislation like the Public Procurement Act No. 8 of 2020 and the Public Finance Management Act No. 1 of 2018. Both is these were flouted. They were not just flouted but they were wantonly flouted by implementing agencies such as the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) and other ministries that have been cited. Contracts were given at will, mostly dependent on patriotism to whoever was in power then.

Madam, my debate will be anchored on asking very pertinent questions. Who was responsible for disregarding the control environment that is provided by our pieces of legislation? To what extent can we ensure that these people are followed? How can we stop this going forward? The control environment exists, except that it was disregarded. Even if it was disregarded, there are people responsible for that. 

Madam, I heard one hon. Member debate that politicians should be exempted from this. I beg to disagree with that. Politicians are the policy holders. If you are to be strict, they offer the corporate governance part of managing these institutions because they are the policy holders. It took the hon. Minister of Health then, to make a pronouncement for the technocrats to implement what that pronouncement intended to achieve. Therefore, they are party to what happened. We cannot exempt some of these people who were in charge then from this situation which we are facing now. This squarely falls on the leadership then. Therefore, as some hon. Members have debated, institutions responsible for enforcing the law must be invoked. Your report is not short of making those recommendations. It has made the rightful recommendations.

The beauty about these reports is that they go into what we call, “Treasury Minutes.” In the Treasury Minutes the Executive is required to act. Some of the actions being demanded in the Committee report are reporting the culprits who embezzled this money to the enforcement agencies so that the law is followed to the latter. Therefore, even if some hon. Members are saying that they have been reporting about these issues, but they just go into record and ends there, it is not ending there. This is a record that is permanent and there are mechanisms of following them up. Soon, we will see it come in an Action Taken Report here. We will also be demanding on what action has been taken by the Executive on these issues which we report about to the House. The nation will be following up all these issues. So, there is a mechanism that exists.

Mr Mufalali:  So, there is nothing emotional about it.

Mr Kambita: So, there is nothing emotional about it. There is a mechanism about it and all I can implore the Executive to do through the Secretary to the Treasury is to ensure that each and everyone cited in the report, even if they are not mentioned by name, they can actually be followed and then, the enforcement agencies will actually mention those names.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I would like to say I support the report of the Public Accounts Committee. 

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Minister of Health debates, I will allow the Chief Whip of the Opposition. Do not exhaust all the ten minutes.

 Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you so much, I will certainly be very brief in commenting on this very important report.

Madam Speaker, yes indeed, we do not support the irregularities that have been highlighted in your report. However, what do we learn from reports like this one? We had a presentation by the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) not too long ago, and I think it was last month. In their presentation, they shared with us some of the challenges they encounter in reacting to calamities. Like one of the hon. Members said, the emergences are not planned for. They occur and they have to be responded to. Therefore, I agree with my hon. Colleague who has just finished speaking, who said that we must obey the laws that we set. Yes, the Public Procurement Act of 2018 is very clear.

However, we must distinguish between procurements for orderly requirements of the Government and for emergencies. We, the law makers should think of making exemptions. What exemptions should we make for institutions such as the DMMU? So, it is important to avoid some of these irregularities that occur in trying to respond to emergencies. Emergencies cannot wait for the orderly procedures of procurement like advertising, tendering and evaluation to be attended to because they take a bit of time. For instance, if a bridge has been washed away and people are cut off from other areas, what does the DMMU coordinator do, in the mean time? These are realities that we must deal with in as much as we do not agree with these irregularities that are identified in your report.

Madam Speaker, we have to be realistic. In the quest to deal with the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), people’s lives were preserved and that is why today, we are able to meet here. In fact, some of us were victims.

Madam Speaker, the DMMU in its wisdom decides to work with the Government institutions like the Zambia National Service (ZNS), and the Zambia Correctional Service in a multi-sectoral way. Maybe, it becomes an oversight on them for not ensuring that contracts – They work on assumption that they are all Government entities. So, when I say we must provide for exemptions, it becomes very clear. How should the Government units work in a multi-sectoral way in order to react to an emergence so that it is not caught up in some of these regularities we are pointing at?

Madam Speaker, it is very important that in as much as we can holistically condemn, we must also be providing solutions so that this report does not come back in the same format as it is today.

Madam Speaker, I wish I could go beyond, but it is important that we revisit the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit Act and harmonise it with the Public Procurement Act by providing exemptions for the DMMU to react to calamities and other emergencies.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I support your report.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, I will be very brief. Firstly, I commend your Committee for a thorough work done. 

Madam Speaker, as Minister of Health, my comments on some of the issues especially those relating to health will be broad.  The issue to do with failure to pay the suppliers is a matter that keeps coming up. I want to state that the Government is committed to pay all the debts for as long as they have been validated. As a ministry, we have done a process of validating some of the debts on account of some of these issues that have appeared in this audit report. This where for example, someone says he or she will supply a particular product and that product is defined but when the documents are handed over to the ministry, that person supplies something similar to what he would have supplied. For example, someone supplies N95 face masks as opposed to the KN95 face masks.

Madam Speaker, you know that the N95 face masks are very expensive and are of good quality. They are very protective. The KN95 face masks are of low value. Such things have happened and they continue to happen. I think Governments have lost resources. I think it is upon all of us now to ensure that, that kind of action should never be tolerated because the Government belongs to the people. This is not about Patriotic Front (PF) Government or the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government. This is about the Zambia Government and the money for the Zambians. 

Madam Speaker, these suppliers have not changed. They are the same suppliers. They want to continue doing exactly what they have been doing with the successive Governments. My problem is that we, as hon. Members of Parliament and even some of our citizens end up supporting such people. We should work together and ensure that we protect our country against these normally called business cartels, who have survived on crooking the successive Governments. For example, these cartels will tell you that this is a 25 kg bag of mealie meal when it is 22 kg. They will tell you that they are going to supply these particular kilograms of sugar but they supply half or less kilograms of what they should have supplied. This problem has been there. That is why over the years, in Zambia, we have lost a lot of money and our economy has gone down. We have not provided enough employment to the Zambians because those of us who are in office and have power as being Parliamentarians speak for these crooks instead of speaking for the Zambians.

Madam Speaker, I want to say that this under the New Dawn Government – The Head of State himself has shown commitment in fighting corruption. It is hoped that, that commitment of the President will filter down to the hon. Ministers, hon. Members of Parliament, and other office bearers. So, relating to suppliers, I want to state that suppliers will be paid.

Madam Speaker, you will recall that under the Ministry of Health Budget, the money for drugs was not meant to pay suppliers. It was clearly stated on the Floor of this House that the issue of debts would be dealt with by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has since started releasing part of this money to pay suppliers. It is also important to note that suppliers are many. So, we do not want a system where a particular supply will be supported at the expense of small suppliers. We want to treat all suppliers whether big or small, equally and fairly.

Madam Speaker, we want to run away from what was happening in the past, whereby one owes a supplier but a supplier promises to pay that person 10 per cent if he favours the supplier at the expense of other suppliers. We want to run away from that. So, hon. Members of Parliament, both on your right and left, should take note of that. They should not be representatives of rich suppliers who should only push for rich suppliers. Let us have transparent systems even when it comes to paying debts as a country.

Madam Speaker, I thought I should say this because many a times, Parliamentarians come here to debate in support of rich suppliers, showing biasness. That is not good. We must debate processes and procedures instead of individual companies.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, concerning disciplinary action against officers, this is –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I have reluctantly raised this point of order when I am trying to follow the hon. Minister as she responds to the report.

Madam Speaker, Standing Order 65 is very clear to all of us as you guided earlier in the morning that we should not debate ourselves. The hon. Minister has made allegations that there are hon. Members here who come to represent suppliers. Now, what happens in this House is that reports are brought here with recommendations. You always guide that hon. Members should stick to the reports.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister, whom I have always held in high respect and esteem, as a veteran here I think, when all of us are put together, in order to make these allegations against your hon. Members that they are agents of suppliers to her ministry? She is saying they could be crooks coming from different governments, when all we do here is to debate matters as they are presented by your Committees. I have read this report, which I equally debated on, except for the limited time, and there is no point where the hon. Members of Parliament have been cited as agents of suppliers.

Is she in order, Madam Speaker, to continue on that trajectory without correcting the record? I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Of course, the rules are that we are not supposed to debate ourselves, which the hon. Minister knows. If she has got evidence to show that some hon. Members came on behalf of the suppliers, then we will appreciate that, but going forward, may the hon. Minister please stick to the report. We have to be factual and not allow ourselves to debate each other.

You can proceed.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, there was also an issue of disciplinary action taken against officers for various offences in the report. I note in the report that in some instances, officers were punished through either being demoted or their contracts terminated. I just want to advise your Committee that in future, it will be necessary to get proof of actions that were taken and not just where an officer comes to tell your Committee that such actions were taken. This is very important because I note that this cancer has continued in the successive
Governments. If it was true that if somebody does something wrong, that person is fired, by now, we should have seen some improvement.

Madam Speaker, I note that in some instances, mistakes made by junior officers who are punished are caused by either senior officers, supervisors or even the political leadership.

Therefore, they will not take the action that the Committee is talking about. Sometimes, they will conveniently transfer an officer from one office to another department, which in my view, is not a punishment. Transferring me from Lusaka to Kitwe is not a punishment. I think that the Committee must insist in ensuring that it gets evidence by being availed with names of officers who have been identified and the exact action that was taken. It is not enough to just be told that these were suspended because sometimes, your Committee can be misled. I just thought that going forward, it is important and necessary that the New Dawn Government begins to be more different from the previous Administration by taking appropriate and strict action on these things.

Madam Speaker, while appreciating that Coronavirus Disease-2019 (COVID-19) and other disasters are emergencies, we noted that even under an emergency, people deliberately do things with impunity, which amount to theft and then they hide in saying, “It was an emergency”. So, what I am saying is that Parliament, as an oversight organisation, must show that it has teeth, so that the three arms of Government stand really autonomous in the manner that the Government is run.

Madam Speaker, my last point is that in thanking your Committee, I want to say that COVID-19 has continued and it will still be a priority because it is a matter of great concern to the Government.  There will be times when the Government will use short cuts but even in those short cuts, the public should be able to see that there was need for that. The Government can single source but it should make sure that the company it is single sourcing from is credible and that its processes are right. I think it is possible to achieve this if we are going to do what is right and expected of us, as the Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to make some remarks on the report that has been laid before this House by the Public Accounts Committee.

Madam Speaker, the report is a culmination of the audit that was undertaken by the Office of the Auditor-General in specific areas of public financing, the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) financing, and other areas that are reported in the report. After the audit report from the Auditor-General, your Committee now scrutinised that report of the Auditor General and sought to seek clarifications from various entities on the report of the audit. From the outset, I want to say that I support the recommendations of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, in doing so, let me just make a comment or two, on the COVID-19 funding where we have read from the report that there were serious abuses. As you can imagine, when the COVID-19 broke out, there was pandemonium and everyone was scared and thinking, “I am going to be the next person to die?” Indeed, we saw the number of mortalities rise. We also saw very senior people dying.

So, it is quite easy under those circumstances for people to push up their own agendas; Push for money; and push for an unacceptable ways of procurement. This is what we are saying here. All I can say is that the law enforcement agencies have read the report of the Auditor-General and the recommendations of your Committee. They are hearing what we are saying in this House that bad practices in financial management will not be condoned. So, they are at liberty. We have given them total freedom to act. We expect that they act because if they do not, then we shall know that they are also part of the problem.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Speaker, let me take cognisance of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the hon. Minister of Health, and my hon. Colleagues who have brought out valuable points to the report through their debates very well.

Madam Speaker, the efficacy of every nation is in ensuring that there is good governance and accountability to forester service delivery to its people. So, it is very important even as a country to look into issues to ensure that we have effective internal controls to that effect. So, as it has been already highlighted, internal audit is the first line of defence to prevent some of these vices.

Madam Speaker, however, let me mention that we have very good policies and Acts such as the Public Finance Management Act No. 1 of 2018 and the Public Procurement Act. The most important thing that we need is a paradigm shift on how we should think as the people of Zambia  for us to forester development in this country. That is very important because we have all these laws that ensures that even as we procure or undertake certain projects for the Government, we are within the ambit of the law.

Madam Speaker, we will continue to do benchmarking as the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) in the region. It is also important that we make certain reforms to ensure that PAC is given powers to do certain things. I will cite an example of PAC in Tanzania. When this Committee is sitting, there is Sergeant at Arms who ensures that light punishment is given to witnesses and other people to deter them from misconduct.

Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to thank each hon. Member who has debated this report and I beg that this report be adopted.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

­­­­­­­ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1254 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 26^th July, 2022.

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