Thursday, 16^th June, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

DELEGATION FROM THE PARLIAMENT OF MALAWI

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following Members of the Parliamentary Service Commission and Staff from the Parliament of Malawi:

Hon. Dr George Chaponda, MP, Commissioner, Leader of Delegation

Hon. Lilian Patel, MP, Commissioner

Hon. Chrispin Mphande, MP, Commissioner

Hon. Noah Chimpeni, MP, Commissioner;

Hon. George Zulu, MP, Commissioner;

Mr Chikondi Kachinjika, Deputy Clerk - Corporate Services

Mr Sunge Kalumo, Special Assistant to the Parliamentary, Service Commission;

Mrs Gloria Dzidekha,  Acting Chief Officer

Mr Joseph Jassi, Usher to the Parliamentary Service, Commission.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive our distinguished guests and warmly welcome them in our midst.

Thank you.

DMMU ORIENTATION WORKSHOP

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) has organised an orientation workshop for all hon. Members of Parliament, to be held on Monday, 20^th June, 2022, from 08:30 hours to 17:00 hours in the Amphitheatre, Parliament Buildings.

The main objective of the workshop is to orient the hon. Members of Parliament on the roles and functions of the DMMU in preventing and responding to emergencies and disasters. You are encouraged to attend this important meeting.

Thank you.

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RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

ON POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR D. MUNG’ANDU, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHAMA SOUTH, ON THE USE OF UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE BY THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Thursday, 9^th June, 2022, when the House was considering the ministerial statement on the Teacher Recruitment Exercise, and Hon. D. Syakalima, Minister of Education had just finished responding to a follow-up question, Mr D. Mung’andu, hon. Member of Parliament for Chama South, raised a point of order.

In the point of order, Mr D. Mung’andu, MP, stated that the House had ruled that people should not behave as if they were at the market, which he found to be a very offensive expression. He, in that regard, asked whether the House was in order to use offensive expressions or unparliamentary language contrary to Standing Order No. 65(2)(e) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021.

In his immediate response, the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker reserved his ruling.

Hon. Members, I reviewed the relevant verbatim record to ascertain whether the statement complained of by Mr D. Mung’andu was made and, if so, by whom. The review revealed that Mr D. Mung’andu’s point of order was on a statement made by the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker who, in guiding hon. Members on how to raise a point of order, stated that the House was not a marketplace. The Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker was at the time presiding over the House.

Hon. Members, Standing Order No. 132 sets out the admissibility criteria for points of order in particular, Standing Order No. 132(1)(d) which states as follows:

          “A Point of Order may be admissible if-

               (d) it is not raised against a decision of the presiding officer.”

Additionally, Standing Order No. 132(2)(d) states:

          “A member shall not raise a Point of Order -

               (d) on a presiding officer or an officer.”

The foregoing rules of the House clearly indicate that a point of order cannot be raised on a presiding officer or a decision of a presiding officer. In the instant case, Mr D. Mung’andu’s  point of order was raised against a statement made by the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker who was presiding over the House at the time. This was clearly in violation of the admissibility criteria provided under Standing Order No. 132. The point of order was, therefore, inadmissible.

Hon. Members, I wish to seize this opportunity to urge hon. Members to acquaint themselves with the rules of the House in general and the admissibility criteria for points of order in particular.

Thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR FUBE, HON. MEMBER FOR CHILUBI, ON THE RIGHT TO ACCESS HEALTH CARE WITHOUT VACCINATION AGAINST COVID-19

Mr Fube (Chilubi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Fube: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My matter of urgent public importance is anchored on Standing Order No. 134, and it is speaking on universal coverage of health services.

Madam Speaker, on 11^th June, 2022, the Daily Nation carried a story of a twelve-year old girl, Memory Chibale, who was denied medical care at Chibefwe Clinic in Mkushi, based on the fact that her father did not have the certificate that indicated he had been vaccinated against the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19).

Madam Speaker, I am coming from a rural area where such a notion is widespread. I am sure that many people who come from rural areas can agree with me that that is almost a norm attached to the attitude of clinicians, that if one is not vaccinated, then he or she should not receive medical care at any point.

Madam Speaker, this is a serious threat to our medical care, especially in the rural areas. In the case in point, the girl even died. According to the story, the girl went to the clinic twice with her father but she was turned away because her father did not have the medical certificate. This is just one of those cases, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I submit in this House that I have twenty-four wards in my constituency and out of the twenty-four wards, I visited about eight wards. Out of the eight wards, people in six wards attested that the health workers were turning them away from accessing medical care because of not having been vaccinated against COVID-19.

Madam Speaker, I find this a threat to human life, and I think it is going to take us a step backwards in terms of achieving universal coverage of health services, countrywide. This also, is scaring me more because this is the cold season and –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, please, can you be precise and to the point? We have the order of proceedings to complete the business today. Can you please kindly resume your seat?

Mr Fube resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: When you raise your point of order, please be precise. We have already taken almost ten minutes. So, please be precise and to the point as you raise your matter of urgent public importance. Please proceed and wind up.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, my single-minded topic that I am talking about is the barring of people who are not vaccinated. What I am trying to say, Madam Speaker, is that it is a threat to human life as I indicated already by quoting the paper. We have already lost a life. This is just one of those that would have come into the public domain. We would have lost a life through this particular attitude of clinicians even in more areas that have not been publicised.

So, Madam Speaker, I seek serious ruling on whether we will continue like this on the issue, especially that it is affecting the universal coverage of health services.

I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

MR CHEWE, HON. MEMBER FOR LUBANSENSHI, ON MRS MASEBO, HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, ONLACK OF AN AMBULANCE IN LUWINGU

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chewe: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving this opportunity to the good people of Lubansenshi Constituency, Luwingu District.

Madam Speaker, I am rising on a matter of urgent public importance under Standing Order No. 134 (a). Madam Speaker, in Luwingu District, as we are speaking right now, we do not have an ambulance which is supposed to service more than 200,000 in that district. Is it in order for the hon. Minister of Health to keep quiet while people are dying?

For your own information, Madam Speaker, in the last two months, we have lost four mothers because of inadequate transport in Luwingu District. I seek your guidance on this matter, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:  Two matters have been raised under Standing Order No. 134, starting with the one that has been raised by the hon. Member for Chilubi. My ruling is that whereas this matter is important, and it involves the rights of citizens to receive medical attention regardless of their status, whether they are vaccinated or not, I am unable to admit it as a matter of urgent public importance.

The hon. Member is advised to use other means of following up this matter directly with the hon. Minister of Health, or even bring it up at the time that we have the session with the Vice-President, of question and answer on a Friday.

On the issue of ambulances or transport, again, it is a matter that has been discussed in this session. It has been discussed several times. The hon. Minister of Health has been called on several occasions to address that issue, and it does not only affect the people of Lubansenshi. I think it is more widespread. So, again, the hon. Member for Lubansenshi is advised to find other ways and means of ensuring that this subject is brought to the attention of the relevant ministry or even to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) or to the Vice-President’s Office so that this key issue can be addressed. The issue of lack of transport or ambulances affects the whole nation. So it is not only for the people of Lubansenshi.

That concludes the matters raised under matters of urgent public importance.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

SHORTAGE OF MEDICINES AND MEDICAL SUPPLIES IN PUBLIC HEALTH FACILITIES COUNTRYWIDE

The Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma) (on behalf of the Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo)): Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, I have a slight cold, could I assist myself by removing the mask?

Interruptions

Mr Lufuma: I need it more. Okay, that is fine.

Madam Speaker: Order!

I believe we have one case where the doctors have ordered one of the hon. Members on medical grounds not to use the mask. So, since the acting hon. Minister of Health has requested, I will use my discretion. He can take off the mask to allow him to speak and when he goes back to his seat, he will put it on.

I know that the hon. Member for Pambashe had requested and I had declined that request, but today, I will exercise my discretion in favour of removing the mask, but only for this purpose.

Mr Lufuma: Most obliged, Madam Speaker. Thank you so much.

Mr Lufuma removed his mask.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to thank you for according me this chance to issue a ministerial statement to inform the august House and the nation on the drug situation in the country and the measures that this Government is putting in place in order to stabilise the country’s supply chain of medicines and medical supplies.

Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Government, under President Hakainde Hichilema, prioritises the health and well-being of Zambians as a critical investment necessary for sustained development. The House may wish to note that availability and accessibility to essential medicines, vaccines and medical supplies are critical factors in ensuring efficient and effective delivery of health services to meet the national health priorities, including the United Nations-Sustainable Development Goals (UN-SDGs).

Madam Speaker, as stated in our previous ministerial statement on 7^th March, 2022, the inconsistent supply of essential medicines and medical supplies over the years has remained a major concern in Zambia. This has been attributed to a combination of factors, including but not limited to the following:

 

   (a)     high disease burden on both communicable and non-communicable diseases;

   (b)    inadequate funding which until now was about K1.4 billion against a total drug budget of K5.2 billion. This

          translates into a deficit of K3.8 billion; and

   (c)    huge drug debt which currently stands at over K2.2 billion;

Madam Speaker, over the past years, accumulation of drug debt has become unbearable. As a result, most suppliers could no longer supply medicines and medical supplies as they needed to be unlocked through debt servicing. This situation is what has led to the current stock-outs in public health facilities. The availability of essential medicines and medical supplies countrywide in the last five years, has been below expected target of 80 per cent. Currently, the national stock position is at emergency points. This means that it is critically low although some facilities might still have still have the required essential medicine and medical supplies. Otherwise, generally, it is critically low.

Madam Speaker, improving the availability of essential medicines and medical supplies in public health facilities is the key prerequisite to providing quality health service delivery that achieves better health outcomes for the people of Zambia. This is a key function that is being performed by the Zambia Medicine and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA). I am delighted to inform the House and the nation that the New Dawn Administration, through ZAMMSA, with the support from the cooperating partners, has put in place measures aimed at improving supply management system to ensure availability of essential medicines and medical supplies.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that in March, 2022, the availability of essential medicines and medical supplies at national level ranged from 30 per cent to 40 percent. Key products such as anti-hypertensive medicines, pain killers, and medicines that are used to treat infections were stocked at 25 per cent, 30 per cent and 26 per cent, respectively.

Madam Speaker, to improve availability, ZAMMSA has undertaken fifteen procurements so far, which include anti-cancer medicines, anti-retroviral (ARV) medicines, anti-malarial medicines and other assorted essential medicines and medical supplies. Of these procurements, ZAMMSA has so far, received anti-malarial, intravenous fluids (IV Fluids), anti-retroviral medicines and assorted products of the blood transfusion programme.

Madam Speaker, of note, is the completed procurement for the supply and delivery of essential medicines and medical supplies budgeted at over K217 million, of which, deliveries are expected to commence this month. An additional procurement for the supply or delivery of essential medicines budgeted at over K181 million is underway. The procurement of 42,000 health centre kits has been undertaken with delivery being expected sometime in October, 2022.

Madam Speaker, in addition to the above, ZAMMSA has called-off orders on the Ministry of Health contracts that were averted and transferred to it. From these, the agency has received deliveries of pain killer medicines such as paracetamol and ibuprofen, blood building supplements such folic acids, anti-hypertensive medicines such as moduretic, anti-diabetic medicines such metformin and antibiotics such erythromycin, doxycycline and ciprofloxacin.

Interruptions

Mr Lufuma: Am becoming a doctor.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: These have so far been delivered and distributed to ZAMMSA.

Hon. Member: Dr Lufuma!

Mr Lufuma: Dr Lufuma, indeed.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, immediate distribution has been carried out for the products that are being received with the central stock levels still currently below 50 per cent. This is expected to improve in the coming weeks with the delivery of essential medicines and medical supplies, which will in turn, through agency’s last mile distribution activities will improve the stock situation at the service delivery point.

Madam Speaker as stated in the previous statement to this House, attainment of universal health coverage (UHC) involves ensuring adequate healthcare, financing and putting financial protection mechanisms in place. It is in this regard that the Government, through the National Health Insurance Scheme (NHIMA), provides accredited facilities with complementary, predictable and sustainable financing that aims to progressively ensure that all Zambians have equitable access to essential quality healthcare without suffering any financial catastrophe or impoverishment. Cumulatively, from inception of NHIMA, in October, 2019, it has so far, invested over K260 million in accredited Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) and mission hospitals of which, 60 per cent has been used by the facilities to supplement procurement of essential medicines and supplies to mitigate the low refill rate from ZAMMSA.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to remind the House that Zambia, like many other developing countries and nations, is faced with a high disease burden of both communicable and nun communicable diseases. The focus of the Government is not only on treating diseases but also, to focus on promoting wellness and preventing diseases at the same time. Availability of medicines and medical supplies must be supported through improved health status of our people. When people are healthy, there will be less need for medicines and medical supplies, as fewer people will fall ill. This will in turn, reduce the burden on the Treasury in terms of treatment course for both communicable and nun-communicable diseases in our public health facilities.

Madam Speaker, in addition, a healthy population provides a healthy workforce which directly contributes to increased productivity. Therefore, enhanced health promotion and disease prevention, among others, are expected to restore our in-country-supply-chain and initiate commodity security thereby, restoring confidence in both health workers and patients in our health systems and services.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that the New Dawn Administration has released K2.3 billion through ZAMMSA, to facilitate for the procurement of both emergence and routine long-term framework-based contact in order to archive stability. The procurement process for medicines and medical supplies shall be conducted in an accountable and transparent manner, at the highest of integrity. Commodities will be procured at the right price, of highest quality, and delivered within the stated delivery period.

Madam Speaker, this, as all hon. Members here know, is what our President has insisted on. He has insisted on value for money and timely delivery of commodities, in accordance with contracts. Therefore, once the above procurement processes are fully implemented, it is envisaged that there will be stability of our in-country-supply-chain for medicines and medical supplies, which will lead to improved health outcomes in service delivery and client satisfaction.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification, I repeat, points of clarification and not debate, on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Acting Minister of Health.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Acting Minister of Health for the ministerial statement.

Madam Speaker, we have heard that the Government is now going to embark on the procurement of medicines that it is going to delivery in all the hospital. I am sure this includes all the hospitals in Kabwe Central, where all the clinics and the hospitals lack essential medicines. However, my concern is also on the wastage of medical supplies in the hospitals. I have not heard the hon. Minister mentioning water for injection. I hope it is going to be procured.

Madam Speaker, last week, when I was in hospital, I experienced that they were using 500 ml of intravenous fluids (IV fluids) to reconstitute drugs. They were withdrawing 3 ml and reconstituting medicines, which means that the water for injection bags were wasted from time to time because they cannot use all of it to dilute medicines. Is the hon. Minister of Health also going to include water for injection to avoid wastage of IV fluids?

Mr Lufuma:  Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Kabwe Central for that question. We take note of her concern and we will institute necessary measures to ensure that there is efficient usage of the medical supplies that she is talking about.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, one thing I wish to commend the hon. Minister over the statement is the fact that he has acknowledged that there is a problem. We have noted over this issue in the past that there has been chochise, where in the ministry, this official would say this and the other says that, and whoever says anything would be seen to be fighting the hon. Minister. It is important that we acknowledge that there is a problem but the extent of this problem cannot be underestimated and underplayed.

Where we are coming from, Madam Speaker, the situation is in dire distress. I want to find out from the hon. Acting Minister that since we have been at stage for a very long time, when then, do we say we are going to rise above this challenge so that we can then, communicate to our people that in such a timeframe, we can then see essential drugs getting into our facilities? Madam Speaker, we do not even have panadol in our facilities yet, there are facilities or companies that are manufacturing or producing panadol in Zambia. So, when can we then begin to comfort our people that in such a period, this (mess) will be sorted out?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Nkana for that very important question.

Madam, it is very important that we acknowledge when there is a problem. This Administration has the necessary honesty and integrity to do that. We do not fear. When there is a problem, we will say there is a problem. However, what this Government has put forward, as I mentioned in my statement right now is that currently, there are fifteen procurement contracts that are under way. Some are already being delivered and some are yet to be delivered. The last procurement in terms of the rural health centre kits which are about 42,000 or so, which will be done by October, 2022. So, we should have those kits in.

Madam Speaker, what I am saying here is that by that time, we should at least have stabilised the supply chain so that we have at least, 80 per cent of stocks that we require in order to run these health facilities at optimal level. So, we are expecting at least, by that time to be able to reach those optimal levels. What is also important here is that we have to note is that we are in a difficult situation as a country. Already, there is a debt of K2.2 billion which we have to address. We are not necessarily flourishing in the comfort of money. Therefore, we will need to engage partners as they are coming on board to try and assist this country especially, in the health sector. So, we are hoping that the combination should be able to assist us stabilise in terms of the supply chain.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, we appreciate the hon. Acting Leader of Government Business for the statement made.

However, Madam Speaker, we are dealing with matters of life and death. Yes, whilst stocks are awaited, patients in the wards are desperate. I heard the hon. Minister state that there is an accumulated debt of K2.2 billion and that the Government has released K2.3 billion to the Zambia Medicine and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) for the procurement of the medicine. Hon. Acting Leader of Government Business, why did the Government not consider it prudent to pay the existing suppliers in order to dismantle the debt so that it could then negotiate with some of the suppliers who might have stocks for the critical medicines that are required? Would that not have worked for the Government instead of embarking on procurement processes that will take long, especially that it is considering new suppliers to come on board?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu who is at the same time, the Chief Whip of the Opposition, for the question.

Madam Speaker, maybe, let me just do a little correction in terms of figures. We have a total budget of K3.2 billion for drugs in this year’s Budget. Of that, K2 billion has been released. Of that K2 billion, only K1.4 billion has actually been released to ZAMMSA to facilitate these procurements. Within this K1.4 billion, we have been able to negotiate with the same people that the hon. Member is talking about, whom we owe a debt of K2.2 billion. We had paid them a little and they have been kind enough on that basis to start delivering some of these medicines that we are going to have. So, we are doing both. It is a double-pronged approach within these little monies that are unfortunately, available to the country and the health sector. We have to trade in a balance and we are using the money as efficiently as we can to please the people that we owe, and at the same time, get the drugs in. It is a delicate balance hon. Member of Parliament and Chief Whip of the Opposition, but we are trying our best.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I wish to firstly thank the hon. Acting Minister of Health for the statement. In thanking him, it is important to underscore that the problem with the health sector is not just like any other problem. We are dealing with a crisis. Our hospitals are now conveyor belts to the mortuary as we speak. The Executive has no luxury of time whatsoever, to reverse this particular tide. We are dealing with a dicey situation. In this regard, Madam Speaker, it does not pay to continue with the blame game and blaming it on what happened in the past. The issues we are dealing with are current because they are happening today.

Madam Speaker, allow me to refer to the National Health Policy of Zambia.

Mr Chanda started looking for the National Health Policy on his cellphone.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kanchibiya, please ask a question seeking clarification and not debating ...

Mr Chanda: Yes, Madam Speaker –

Madam Speaker: … so that we can allow as many hon. Members to ask questions.

Mr Chanda: I wish to ask a question in relation to the National Health Policy, Madam Speaker, with your indulgence.

Madam Speaker: Okay. Please, be precise.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, the National Health Policy under Section 472 states:

       “Objective

       To improve on the availability and condition of essential equipment and accessories in all

      health facilities so as to ensure effective health service delivery.

Madam Speaker, then it also gives two policy measures:

     “Policy Measures

      Government shall:

          (i)  provide all essential equipment required for safe delivery of the essential package at each level.

         (ii)  provide means for the implementation of the corrective and routine medical equipment maintenance

              programme, countrywide.

In this regard, Madam Speaker, there are reports that the country right now has a critical shortage of antiretrovirals (ARVs). The country has a situation with the computerised tomography (CT) scans also. The only CT scan that is working in Lusaka is at Maina Soko Military Hospital, which is servicing a population of about 3.4 million people in Lusaka. What is the Government’s turnaround strategy to this particular matter? October is too far and our people are dying every day. We can stand here and speak good English but with every minute and second that goes, a life is being lost in this country because we have no drugs.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kanchibiya for that very important question. The policy is pretty much simple and straight forward. We would like to ensure that all medical supplies, be it equipment or drugs, are supplied. We are aware it is a matter of life and death. I am very much aware. As far as ARVs drugs or medicines are concerned, I think in this country, as we are talking right now, orders have been given, and I think deliveries are on the way so that we can beef-up the stocks that are available. I am seriously very sorry that we have this situation in the country. It is not by design. On the contrary, we want to do the best we can to ensure that, you know, the citizens are provided with the necessary medical supplies and drugs. So, retroviral drugs are on their way to replenish what is already in stock.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, I thank you so much for this opportunity. I pray God blesses you abundantly.

Madam Speaker: Amen!

Laughter

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, thank you. As I stand here, I must confess that I am quite disappointed. I am a sad person because the hon. Minister’s ministerial address does not give hope to an ordinary person.

Hon. Government Members: How?

Mr Mutelo: Were you listening?

Hon. Opposition Member: Let him talk.

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, this issue is not about politics; it cuts across partisan lines. So, if the hon. Minister is going to talk about October and the debt while people are languishing in our clinics, I do not know how these people will be helped. However, I have a question to the hon. Minister of Health.

Madam Speaker, allow me to quote one sentence from the Daily Nation newspaper, which I will marry with the hon. Minster’s statement. I quote from Volume 8 of Tuesday, 24^th May, 2022, under a story headlined “Drug Shortages Persist.”

      “The Resident Doctors Association of Zambia (RDAZ) President, Dr Brian Sampa said a false narrative was

      being propagated that hospitals and clinics had been stocked with drugs when in fact not.”

Madam Speaker, I wish to go further and state that such statements have been given before. The RDAZ, which is an association for doctors who are officers working in clinics and hospitals was appealing to the President to go and inspect hospitals and clinics on his own to see how the situation is out there. According to the doctors, they felt that the President was being misled.

Madam Speaker, my question is: Who is telling the truth between the hon. Minister of Health and the officers in the hospitals and clinics, the RDAZ President is saying that this narrative is false?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for seeking that clarification. I have indicated here that not everything is rosy in the health sector and in the delivery of drugs and medical supplies.

Ms Sefulo: Yes!

Mr Lufuma: I got compliments from one of their hon. Members that at least, we are admitting that there is a problem.

Hon. Government Member: Correct!

Mr Lufuma: The first step towards ensuring that one comes up with a solution is admitting there is a problem.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: That is what we have done on this Floor of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: I do not know where the hon. Member of Parliament was. Having said that, I know he might be disappointed. Even though he is saying that we are not giving hope to the people, I think we are giving hope to the people. I have given hope here on this Floor of Parliament that currently, stocks are below the 80 per cent optimal levels. However, there are fifteen contracts of essential drugs that are underway and some are already being supplied. I am sure that quotation must have been waivered before the delivery of this statement here. The hon. Member should take this statement as current information than taking information from a newspaper, because that information might be outdated. So, we are giving hope. Fifteen contracts have been consummated and I think that is the right English word to use. Right now, some are being delivered. That is hope. We have said that K2.2 billion has been released and out of that, K1.4 billion has been paid to ZAMMSA. ZAMMSA is there to supply medicines and drugs.

Hon. Government Member: Correct!

Mr Lufuma: That is hope. If that is not hope, I do not know what hope the hon. Member of Parliament expects.

Mr Muchima: Tell him in Luvale.

Mr Lufuma: So, hope is there. We have contracted suppliers to bring in medicines. On the long term, our plan, the plan of this Government is to, since we are getting a lot of increase in this economy, invest in pharmaceutical industries. That is what is going to solve a lot of these problems. There are people from the United States of America (USA) and India, who would like to come here and set up pharmaceutical industries that ultimately, should be able to assist and give hope to the hopeless Zambians.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, the people of Luena are happy to hear that the Government is addressing these perennial medical supply challenges in our health sector.

Madam Speaker, every reasonable Zambian knows that the hon. Minister of Health inherited an almost dysfunctional medical system.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, one of the contributing factors to that dysfunctional health system is or was the rampant pilfering of medicines from our public hospitals into private pharmacies ...

Hon. UPND Member: And corruption.

Mr Anakoka: ... and corruption. My question therefore is: Given that the New Dawn Government is addressing this situation with medicines about to start flowing sooner rather than later, what measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that the rampant pilferage that the hon. Minister inherited is going to be a thing of the past and that it goes with the regime that introduced it?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for stating plain facts as they stand. One of the major problems has been pilferage of medicines, drugs and supplies into private facilities. That goes without saying that, whether they like it or not, that was the case.

Madam Speaker, the measure we have put in place really, is to ensure that instead of the procurement being done by the Ministry of Health per se, ZAMMSA has been given this responsibility to do so. ZAMMSA will delivery directly to the health facilities and those health facilities will be able to account at point, so that we do not have pilferage in between. So, we are hoping with that, we shall be able to stamp down on this corruption that was endemic.

Madam Speaker, we have a programme where we would like to emphasise, encourage or sensitise communities as well to monitor the supplies of these drugs and medicines. It is very easy to know in a community whether these supplies of medicines and drugs are coming from their hospital, external or private source. So once that is noticed, we would like to sensitise the communities to be able to report to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and to those agents in the districts that look after those people who would like to indulge themselves in corrupt practices. So, to some extent, that is what we want to do and tighten-up. We want to be accountable and transparent in the issuance and delivery of these medicines.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I sat here quietly listening from very sober answers by the hon. Minister but Standing Order No. 65, demands that answers we give in this House must be verifiable and factual.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has raised a very strong sweeping statement bearing the politicking that came from the hon. Member for Luena that civil servants in the Ministry of Health are irresponsible for the shortage of medicines when the hon. Minister, himself confirmed that there is no medicines to pilfer.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said clearly that there is no medicines and he acknowledged the problem. The hon. Minister went further to say that they are working towards restoring the supply of medicines in the hospitals. However, after politicking, again, the hon. Minister contradicted himself, agreed that yes, one of the contributing factors is the pilfering of medicines by the workers and he is calling for the public to be alert.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister therefore, in order to contradict himself when he acknowledged that there is nothing in the hospitals that the health workers can steal?

I seek you serious ruling, Madam Speaker. 

Madam Speaker: Thank you for that point of order. My ruling is that the hon. Minister has given the statement according to the information that he has available. I cannot fault him because I also do not know whether the medicines are there or not, or it is being pilfered. So, we leave it at that.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, the situation on the ground regarding the medicines is bad. Literally, the health system has collapsed and people are dying. In Mpika, all the health facilities do not have medicines.

Madam Speaker, why is the hon. Minister of Health not declaring the situation as a disaster so that we can have people urgently coming to our aid?  We need to sort this out urgently and that can only be done if the situation is declared as a disaster.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. There is no disaster and therefore, there will be no declaration whatsoever, of a disaster. We will manage.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, firstly, I just want to congratulate my hon. Colleague, the hon. Acting Minister of Health on his boldness. He has told the whole nation that there is a crisis in our hospitals.

Madam Speaker, now that the crisis is there, and the New Dawn Government is fighting corruption, which entails being transparent, and that the hon. Minister has communicated to all of us and the nation at large that the Government has fifteen contracts, how did it come up with those medical suppliers?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Kabushi seems to have a tactic of putting words into other people’s mouths.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: I do not want to say much but let me say that I never said at any one point in this House, that there was a crisis. I never said that.

There is a problem, yes, but there is no crisis and that is why we are not declaring a national disaster. Who is that one who asked me to declare the situation as a national disaster? You can declare national disasters when you have a crisis. We do not have a crisis. We are going to manage. We have fifteen contracts running and those contracts should replenish our medicine and drug supplies. We are going to do that. There is no crisis hon. Member. I never said that.

Mr Mutale: Question!

Mr Lufuma: You can question as much as you want, hon. Member of Parliament, but that does not change the fact.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, I think the hon. Minister got carried away. He has actually not responded to Hon. Lusambo’s question.

Madam Speaker gave the Floor to Mr C. Mpundu

Mr C. M. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Speaker –

Madam Speaker: Sorry, I think I am getting – Was that a question, hon. Leader of the Opposition?

Mr Mundubile: Yes.

Madam Speaker: Sorry then. Hon. Member for Chembe, just a moment. The hon. Minister of Health may respond to the hon. Member for Kabushi’s question.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, sorry, the hon. Member might be right. I got slightly carried away. The question was: How did we execute those fifteen contracts? Is that right?

Hon. PF Member: Yes!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, there are existing procurement regulations that govern the manner in which we procure the Government contracts, and those where followed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. M. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, looking at the ministerial statement that the hon. Minister has given, we are only taking care of one side, which is that of the patient. We are not looking at the health workers, who execute duties down there. From that background, the question is: What measures have been put in place to have our health workers protected from the public to rise against them, especially that the community is difficult to understand that there are no drugs? How are our health workers going to be protected in this situation? We have seen the community rising against our workers who have a law that governs them. For example, when a patient dies, a health worker can be charged for negligence. So, I need the Minister’s serious answer.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I have difficulties in comprehending the question of clarification that the hon. Member is trying to put forth. Maybe he has to put it in a more succinct manner so that I am able to answer him.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Although we have exalted our time, I could not get the question also. Maybe we give the hon. Member another opportunity to be clear.

Mr C. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, to be precise, my question is: What measures has the Government put in place to protect our health workers, especially during this period when there are drug shortages? We have seen that at times, relatives to the patients rising against for example, nurses or doctors asking them why they are not attending to their patients. So, what measures has the Government put in place to have our workers protected? Let us not just look at the side of a patient.

Madam Speaker: Much clearer.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, although it is much clearer, I think it is out of context, given the statement that I just gave on medicines and drugs. However, I will attempt to answer him.

Madam Speaker, this country is governed by laws. The laws are there to protect every citizen, not excluding the health workers. So, that health worker will be protected via the laws that this august House has promulgated.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Pambashe, would you like to handover your phone?

Laughter

_______

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Brig-Gen. Sitwala (Kaoma Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 8^thJune, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms S. Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: Madam Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference, as set out in the National Assembly Standing Orders, your Committee considered two topical issues, namely:

      (a)    the administration of parole and correctional supervision vis-a-vis the decongestion of correctional

             facilities in Zambia; and

      (b)   the management and operation of missions abroad;

Madam Speaker, your Committee also considered the Action-Taken Report on its report for the Fifth Session of the Twelfth National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, during its study, your Committee interacted with several stakeholders locally and outside the country, who tendered both written and oral submissions.

Madam Speaker, I have no doubt that hon. Members of the House have taken time to read the Committee's report. Therefore, allow me to only highlight a few critical findings of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, the House may be aware that one of the fundamental objectives of the criminal justice system in any country is to punish, rehabilitate, deter, and reintegrate offenders into communities. The motive of punishment is therefore, to transform criminals into responsible and law-abiding citizens.

Madam Speaker, parole is acknowledged internationally as an acceptable mechanism that provides for the conditional release of offenders from correctional centres into the community. It should be noted from the onset that the release of offenders on parole, does not in any way negate the objectives of punishment, but entrenches them through setting conditions of which all parolees must abide.

Madam Speaker, there have been concerns about the administration of parole in Zambia. According to the Auditor General's Report of July, 2014, which focused on the rehabilitation and reintegration of prisoners, there were delayed parole hearings, and this resulted in some deserving applicants serving their full-term before their applications could be considered. The report added that the parole officers were not trained in the administration of parole due to the high rate of staff turnover and lack of funding in the correctional service.

Madam Speaker, let me now touch on some specific challenges as observed by your Committee in the course of its work. While the Zambia Correctional Service Act No. 35 of 2021 provides for the decentralisation of the Parole Board to provinces and districts, the Parole Board is still only present in Lusaka. This makes the process of considering applications from inmates to be very low and slow. This situation has resulted in the failure of the restorative justice of the criminal justice system.

Madam Speaker, given this challenge, your Committee strongly recommends that the process of decentralising the functions of the Parole Board to provinces and districts be implemented with utmost urgency.

Madam Speaker, another issue is that the current law governing the administration of parole does not provide for an appeal system. In this vein, your Committee strongly recommends that in order to enhance accountability and confidence in the criminal justice system, the granting or refusal of parole to an eligible applicant should be open to appeal before an oversight or review board. In this vein, the parole review board should be created to oversee the operations of the Parole Board.

Madam, your Committee also observed that the current qualification for parole is that an inmate should be serving a sentence of not less than two years and remaining with six months before its expiry. That in itself, is a disincentive and discriminatory as it excludes mostly  female inmates who usually get sentences below two years and also, releasing an inmate just six months before the expiry of the sentence regardless of how long one has served is just a mockery.

In this regard, your Committee strongly recommends that parole should be made more meaningful and inclusive by reviewing the universal six-month condition for parole, which applies to all inmates irrespective of the period of their sentences. The Committee recommends that a percentage such as 75 per cent of the sentence served should be used instead.

Madam Speaker, another area of concern is the lack of clear distinction between the Zambia Correctional Service and the Parole Board. This has made autonomy and transparency difficult to attain. In this regard, your Committee recommends that there should be a separation between the national Parole Board and the Zambia Correctional Service in order to promote autonomy for the Parole Board.

Madam, let me make a brief comment on the operations of the missions abroad. Your Committee observes that missions such as the Accra Mission, that operate from rented buildings spent colossal sums of money on rentals. This issue was brought by this same Committee some time back and, therefore, your Committee urges the Executive to revisit the mortgage financing mode to enable missions to own property to save the meagre resources of the country.

Madam Speaker, I wish to conclude by thanking all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee. Lastly, let me thank you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its sittings.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms  S. Mwamba: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity. I beg to second the Motion that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs.

Madam, in seconding this Motion, let me make a few comments. There is inadequate training for correctional officers in the administration of parole and correctional supervision. There is need for capacity building on the Parole Board as well as the correctional service officers. There is insufficient training for the officers to understand what parole is. There is need for sufficient community sensitisation on the difference between parole and presidential pardon.

Madam, there is need for enhanced community sensitisation so that there is need for the community to understand that there is no interference of any presidential authority in parole. Many members of the community are not aware of what parole is. When a parolee is out on parole, many community members do not take the members on very well. There is a lot of backlash and members are also forced to move.

Madam Speaker, the current law does not provide for the national Parole Board to give back to the correctional services. This has also been a very big hindrance because when a parolee has been given or denied parole, they are not given reasons as to why they do not qualify. It is, therefore, important that the Parole Board begins to give feedback to the correctional services, so that in future, there can be a way for the parolee as well as the correctional service officers to understand why there has been denial of parole.

Madam, on our foreign tour, we visited the Ghana Correctional Services. Ghana’s Justice for All Programmes have set up special courts within prisons where cases were heard. The Judiciary, working in collaboration with the correctional service, would also help by setting up such programmes here in Zambia because that would help to fast-track some of the matters, especially those convicts who do not have court dates, as well as some of the petty issues. It would also be helpful to start looking into community service and fines. This would also greatly help prisons to be decongested because some of the inmates are in on very minor matters that could be sorted out using community service as well as fines.

Madam Speaker, the Ghana Correctional Services has also implemented a remission system, where an inmate could serve up to two-thirds of the sentence whilst the one-third is served from the outside. This does not leave out that even as the service is being done from the outside, there is close monitoring of the inmate. Most of the time, this really helps because once you serve two terms, you are really restored.  Restorative justice is therefore, in place. It is quite recommended that we also look into that as Zambia for inmates who are serving long sentences to serve two-thirds and the one-third on the outside.

Madam Speaker, the Zambian Government should learn from Ghana in implementing parole in a similar manner where an inmate would serve two thirds of the sentence, that is if the inmate is eligible for parole because certain cases are not eligible.

Madam, with those few remarks, I beg to move the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to make a few comments in support of the Motion ably moved by the Chairperson, Hon. Brig-Gen. Sitwala, and seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasama Central.

Madam Speaker, in agreeing with the report, it is also important to appreciate that offender management has now changed from the way it used to be in terms of punishing as a way of managing offenders. It used to be punitive until this august House operationalised the paradigm shift of introducing an Act in 2021. So, what that does is that from the punitive way of managing offenders, now, the Correctional Services are focusing on rehabilitating the offenders.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, I know, should be prescribing the way the parole system should operate. It is also important to make a distinction because parole is only meant for those who are serving shorter sentences. In as much as six months would look too short, it is indeed, a reasonable period. If someone is sentenced for two years and six months, that is a reasonable period. In any case, parole consideration is earned through the behaviour of an inmate. The inmates who show remorse for offending the society easily earn this parole consideration.

However, it is important to understand that apart from parole, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security also Chairs another very critical Committee, which is the Prerogative of Mercy, a Committee, which recommends for remission of various sentences of capital offenses for consideration by His Excellency the President. So, the solution lies in obviously, increasing the space. We tried to do as much as we could and I know that the hon. Minister should be opening new facilities that are almost complete, in order to accommodate many inmates in a humane manner.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has only one challenge because people who are considered for parole, reintegration in society is normally a challenge and this culminates into recidivism in some cases. There is rejection of people who come out of correctional facilities. The correctional facilities need to make sure that they capacitate former inmates with means of getting into society so they are able to start their lives and not go back to their old ways of doing things. I think the new Correctional Service Act of 2021, caters for the challenges that the report has highlighted.

Madam Speaker, I want to comment on the issue of some missions abroad. Indeed, it is worrisome that some of the missions that have been in countries that we have had bilateral relations with for a long time are still using rented facilities.

Madam Speaker, you will remember when we accompanied you to one of our missions where we found that the mission was still renting offices when actually, that mission is not there for a short period. It is a permanent mission. Therefore, it is important that the aspect on mortgage is considered by the Ministry Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, so that these missions are accommodated in permanent facilities. This will save the Government resources in as far as rentals are concerned.

Madam Speaker, in supporting the Motion, I agree that your Committee did benchmarking with Ghana. I think the system in Ghana is the same as ours here. Your Committee mentioned that the correctional services in Ghana give a certain quarter of remission. Therefore, I wish to state that there is no much difference with what is provided for in our new Act.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I support the adoption of the report.

Interruptions

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, sorry for the delay.  I was not muted in time.

Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for giving the people of Lukashya the opportunity to debate in support of the Motion on the Floor of the House. I want to also start by thanking the mover for ably moving this Motion and the supporter of the Motion. This Motion is very important because it lies at the very core of the administration of justice in the Republic of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, as the country has been moving from the punitive to a reformatory justice system, the operation of the parole system is very cardinal and is an integral part of the administration of justice in the country.

Madam Speaker, I will just emphasise on two very important points. Firstly, we need to have a properly run parole system in the country, which can be utilised or accessed by those who may be punished for falling foul with the law.

Madam Speaker, I want to emphasise the need for prioritising the training for parole officers. This, in my assessment is very important because there is going to be a requisite interaction between the paroled prisoners and the officers, after the prisoners are allowed to go back home. Without properly trained parole officers, we are going to continue encountering difficulties in integrating those who have been paroled into society, as was ably stated by the mover and the supporter of the Motion.

Madam Speaker, the challenge that prisoners who leave prison on parole is how they are going to be integrated in society. This becomes more precarious, if those who are paroled are not given the assistance by parole officers, who track them down to try and help them to integrate into the society shortly after they have been released

Madam Speaker, I have also taken note of the observation that there is need for us to have a Parole Review Board put in place. This is a very critical issue because without a Parole Review Board, the whole parole system would not operate effectively in the country. It has been observed that the absence of a Parole Board has made it very difficult for us to provide the parole services to the country. I would very much agree with the submission or the report that there is need for us to very urgently put in place the parole review board.

Madam Speaker, this Parole Review Board is very important because it will help the country to achieve the objective of decongesting prisons. Whereas it has been stated, you find people who have been sentenced for very minute offences being mixed with those who have committed felons in prison.

Madam Speaker, the parole system also helps us to ensure that maybe, we can consider allowing people who commit very flimsy or minor offences to avoid going to prison all together by having them do some community service as have been shown in the country, where the comparison was drawn, in Ghana. It is very clear that some people who are serving prison terms committed offences for which community services have had the most up punishment to give them. However, in the absence of a very well-functioning parolee system, this has become very difficult to manage. I therefore, would whole-heartedly support this report and insist that we need to put in place a Parole Review Board as soon as reasonably practical.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this very important report of your Committee. Allow me to thank the mover for moving the Motion is a manner that he has done and also, the seconder for seconding the Motion in an ably manner and augmenting it with the words that it deserved.

Madam Speaker, your Committee looked at very important matters, especially regarding foreign missions. Foreign missions have been neglected most of the time and it is good that your Committee chose to look at this very important component of governance.

Madam Speaker, I note that foreign missions rent even when we also have our own buildings that are Zambian-owned. Madam Speaker, if you see these buildings, you will feel very bad. The hon. Minister will agree with me that some of these missions are very dilapidated to a standard that we would not like. These missions serve as a face of this country in those foreign nations. My appeal is that we look at ways and means in which we can at least refurbish some of these missions. The buildings themselves and the furniture, are something that one would beg to desire.

Madam Speaker, my appeal to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation is that as he is considering the budget formulation for the coming National Budget, he should consider looking at the report of your Committee, so that some of the issues that have been raised can be solved by also, adding refurbishment of missions in his Budget. Madam Speaker, I thought I should comment on that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for this opportunity for the people of Mbabala to add their voice on seconding the Motion on the Floor as laid out by your Committee, led by Hon.  Brig-Gen. Sitwala and Hon. Mwamba, who seconded the Motion.

Madam Speaker, the issue of parole is of great concern and interest to the people of Mbabala and the country at large. I will specifically discuss the issue of reintegration as debated by many others. This is an area that requires professional social work services. I am glad that this House passed the Social Workers’ Association of Zambia Bill this year that is now an Act because that complements the services on the ground.

Madam, parole officers are supposed to be accredited to professional institutions such as the Social Workers’ Association of Zambia (SWAZ), an institution that looks at the professionalism and ethics in the management of parole services such as reintegration in society. It is only when we have professionally trained parole officers who are accredited to an ethics body such as SWAZ that we will get quality services for the prisoners to integrate properly in their community. They need that professional social work service for them to integrate into the community. The communities, prisoners and parole persons need to be prepared. All need to understand each other and know their expectations and how to basically integrate properly.

Madam Speaker, as we deal with this issue, we are also dealing with the issue of the Parole Board. I also second that it should immediately be put in place with professionals. Again, I argue that this board needs to include professional officers such as a representative of SWAZ so that it can have professional input into that body.

I also want to recommend, Madam Speaker, that we include the disability aspect. Often times, persons with mental disability are sentenced to prison and they face challenges in these prisons. I, therefore, wish to recommend that the Parole Board also includes a representative of the disability agencies, such as the Zambia Agency for Persons with Disabilities (ZAPD), so that we can provide for professional services and support for this area of need. On the human rights angle, we have the Disability Rights Watch (DRW) that can represent ably such bodies and can ensure that their rights are protected.

Madam Speaker, we need to work on decongesting the prisons. The prisons are overly congested. With a very good functional parole system, we will be able to decongest the prisons and ensure that the prisoners enjoy quality of life. I am glad that since the coming of the New Dawn Government, we have seen reports of prisoners sleeping very well because the facilities have been improved by the New Dawn Government. So well done and congratulations to Hon. Mwiimbu and his team.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: Keep it up, Hon. Mwiimbu and your team.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you!

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, I also want to comment on the issue of access to the families for prisoners. As we deal with these matters, prisoners once sentenced should be sentenced to prisons that are near their family, so that they can be able to enjoy family life or contact. That is an essential human rights need.

On the foreign missions, Madam Speaker, I am glad to note that the methodical approach of the New Dawn Government is bearing results because we are not taking a grand scheme of recalling everybody. Instead, we are methodically working around the foreign missions with a view that we may save resources and be able to either acquire or renovate these services. When we visited Zimbabwe as your Committee, we found this approach is being done where the mission is working around renovations whilst staying in a smaller mission for that period.

Madam Speaker, this is the work of the New Dawn Government that is demonstrating a methodical approach to doing things. There is no longer chipantepante or just playing the ball without knowing where you are kicking. Instead, now, the missions are being handled with a professional touch and we are seeing the results like we saw and as alluded to by many others who were debating. We are sure that we are going to save resources and we are going to ensure that we acquire and renovate these missions, so that they can present a good image of Zambia, the mighty Zambia that we all love.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Amb. Kalimi (Malole): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute on this important debate on foreign missions. First of all, I want to thank the mover and seconder of this Motion. I will restrict myself to the issue of the foreign service, having served as a Consul General in China and the Deputy High Commissioner of Zambia in Kenya. I think my voice can bear something in this House.

Madam Speaker, I concur that we definitely need to encourage mortgage in these missions. The Government is spending a lot of money in terms of rentals for the infrastructure. For example, if we pay rentals for the First Secretary in Lavington, Kenya maybe at US$4,000 per month, that money is too much. We can save, as a country. At one time, we had a residence for the Deputy High Commissioner which we did not occupy because it was dilapidated.

Madam Speaker, we had proposed that we sell that property because the land had a too much value, so that at least, we buy other properties that would enable members of the diplomatic to have permanent residencies. I think we started the process but the information which has been reaching us is that there has been some transaction that was done by some scrupulous people who illegally sold it without the knowledge of the Government. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation was not involved. I am urging the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation to make a follow up and see how true that issue is, that the residence for the Deputy High Commissioner in Kenya was sold without the knowledge of the Government.

Madam Speaker, as I have said, the rentals are too high. The building which the Kenyan High Commission is occupying leaks, including the office of the High Commissioner himself. He has to put a bucket besides her chair. We need to encourage the maintenance policy which the previous Government left, within and outside Zambia, so that these things are dealt with.

Hon Government Members: Which maintenance?

Amb Kalimi: I mean the maintenance policy both inside and outside the country.

Madam Speaker, I will look on the depreciation of motor vehicles. The vehicles in the Foreign Service are depreciating at a very fast rate. To maintain them, the procedure is too cumbersome. How I wish this issue would come into terms so that at least, we work on these assets. Mind you, we bought these things using the Zambian tax payers’ money and some of these assets are just depreciating.

Madam Speaker, we need to encourage the mission to work on the very modalities so that at least, we keep these vehicles in a proper manner.

Madam Speaker, let me also look at the issue of recalling people from the missions. I am one of the victims who was recalled and it was good that I was recalled by my Government. I can imagine how painful being recalled can be. It is not something to talk about. Why do we not look at the career diplomacy? There is no need for us to be recalling people. Whenever there is change of the Government, we always hear that this one or that one has gone. Where is the institutional memory? We need to have a career diplomacy so that at least, people can serve with security. There is no need to say, since the Government has changed, Kalimi, Mulenga and Hambulo, zwa. We must change our attitude. Let jobs for these diplomats be secured. We should not appoint people on partisan lines that if Kalimi was a cadre, then he needs to be appointed. We should appoint people who are qualified and have a lot of experience in terms of diplomacy.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I want to fully support this Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane)on behalf of the acting Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation (Mr Kakubo)): I thank you Madam Speaker, and I wish to acknowledge the debate of the hon. Members of Parliament and recommendations of your Committee. Thereafter, I wish to stress on the following points:

      (a)    That the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation is too committed to ensuring that in a

              phased approach, all missions shall eventually own properties and maintain them timely to avoid rent;

      (b)    that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation has continued to engage the Ministry

              of Finance and National Planning on improved funding through various budget policy interactions;

 

      (c)   that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation in a phased approach is in the process

            of re-organising and restructuring the ministry considering among others, staffing and improved service

            delivery matters;

     (d)   that in reference to Cabinet Circular No. 12/8/2, dated 2^nd November, 2021, and 18^th January, 2022,

            directing all Permanent Secretaries (PSs) to review all legislation that was under way by the previous

           Administration, the ministry has made significant progress on the process to introduce to this august

           House the Foreign Service Bill, which among others, will resolve the challenge of professional cadre of

           staff in the missions abroad.

Madam Speaker, lastly, I wish to thank you for this opportunity to respond to your Committee.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the mover and seconder of the Motion. The Motion which is non-controversial which was promulgated in the interest of the nation and I wish to take note of the contents of the report.

Madam Speaker, I would like to state that the Zambia Correctional Service Act of 2021, came into effect in January, this year after I signed the commencement order. Pursuant to the signing of the commencement order, we have commenced the process of ensuring that the provisions of the current Zambia Correctional Service Act are implemented. We have noted the recommendations of your Committee pertaining to the devolving of the Parole Boards to the provinces and districts. This shall be done in due course as I indicate that the Act has just been actualised. We have taken note of the various recommendations which have been proposed by your Committee, which recommendations are quite progressive.

Madam Speaker, my ministry did appear before your Committee to make presentations. We are happy to note that some of the issues that were raised by ourselves as witnesses have been taken on board by your Committee. I would like to assure your Committee and this House Madam Speaker, that the progressive recommendations that have been made by your Committee will be implemented by my ministry.

Madam Speaker, I also would like appreciate the various colleagues who have made comments pertaining to the report of your Committee. Most of the comments were advisory and which advice we have accepted.

Madam Speaker, I would like to respond to one particular submission that was made by the hon. Member of Malole, if I am not mistaken, pertaining to the residence of the Deputy High Commissioner in Kenya, which as he had put it, was sold by unscrupulous people. I would like to confirm that that was the position. Fortunately, the matter has been resolved. Unscrupulous individuals in Kenya, without the authority of Government and the High Commission in Kenya, had purportedly sold the residence and occupation was made by those scrupulous people. They were even getting rent. Fortunately, we have resolved the issue and the residence is now in our hands.

Madam Speaker, with those few submissions, I rest my case and thank your Committee and the House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Sitwala (Kaoma Central): Madam Speaker, it remains for me to thank all the various speakers who have contributed to this very important Motion.

Madam Speaker, before I sit down, I would just like to lay on the Table a gift that was given to your Committee. Your Committee agreed that this should be handed over as it can be of good use in our library. The present was given by one, Mr Richard Kuuire, who is one of the former Director-Generals for Ghana Prisons Service. One book is to do with the Transformation of Prison Systems in Africa and the other one is on Slavery in Ghana. We thought these could add value to our library. I would therefore, want to lay them on the Table. Otherwise, I thank everyone. I also to thank you, Madam Speaker, and the Clerk of the National Assembly, for the support given to your Committee.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala laid the paper on the Table.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Kaoma Central. I also thank you very much for the books. I am sure they will be of great value to our library. Having gone to Ghana and visited the Cape Coast where the slave trade was happening, I think those books will be very useful especially for those people who have not been there.

Thank you very much.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE JUDGES (CONDITIONS OF SERVICE) (Amendment) BILL, 2022

(Debate resumed)

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity on behalf of the people of Mporokoso to conclude debate on this Bill.

Madam Speaker, before business was interrupted on Tuesday, 14^th June, 2022, I was appealing to the Executive through the hon. Minister of Justice that they should resist any temptation that may come to undermine the independence of the Judiciary.

Madam Speaker, when you read the Constitutional provisions at Articles 122, 123 and 267, you can only come to one conclusion. The conclusion you will arrive at, Madam Speaker, is that the framers of the Constitution intended to make the Judiciary independent as much as it would also want to make the Executive of the Judiciary and the Legislature to be independent.

Madam Speaker, in this particular case, the independence of the Judiciary would not mean placing the determination of judges’ emoluments under the recommendation of the President because then, the Judiciary will not be entirely independent as is envisaged by Article 123. So, we do not support the proposed amendment at Clause 3, which would bring in the President to make recommendations to the Emoluments Commission.

Madam Speaker, the creation of the Emoluments Commission at Article 232, was intended to have an independent body that would look at the conditions of services for many state actors including Constitutional Office holders like judges. Therefore, it would be very retrogressive with all these efforts that have been made to again, take back the process and procedure, to go through the President. The President is the Head of the Executive and I think that there are many challenges that the Executive need to attend to. So, we should not at any point endeavour to try and place any of the arms of Government under the President. In this case, I would like to state for the record that for us on the left, we do not support that proposed amendment. We have no problem with the other two amendments, but he one at Clause 3, is the one we do not support.

Madam Speaker, further, the Emoluments Commission Act, Section 36 – Transitional Provisions reads:

      “…State organ, State institution or any other authority concerned with the determination of emoluments of a  

      chief or an officer in a State organ or State institution to cease to be responsible for determination of

      emolument after the commencement of the proposed Bill.”

Madam Speaker, this is all in the same spirit that all this power must now be given to the Emolument Commission. So, I therefore, wish to state that we do not support the proposed amendment at Clause 3.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, in agreeing with your Committee on Clause 3, I just want to urge the hon. Minister of Justice that law must be made for the people, but if the people reject it, what will it be for?

Madam Speaker, Clause 3 at paragraph 9, states that all the witnesses who were called before your Committee opposed to the inclusion of that amendment. Therefore, it shows that the Zambian people rejected the introduction of this law. Therefore, I want to submit my humble appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice that in 2013, I hope my brother, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security will be able remember, that the late President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata submitted the nomination of the then, Right Hon. Justice Chibesakunda to be the Chief Justice of Zambia, but your Committee rejected that report. So, bearing on the resolution of your Committee, this House agreed to withdraw that Motion until further notice.

Madam Speaker, I think it is prudent that when a Committee of the Speaker agrees with the submissions of the witnesses, who are not just private people, but those who are in the legal fraternity to oppose Clause 3, it should be done that way.

Madam Speaker, I know that the hon. Minister of Justice and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security are seasoned lawyers who have stood at the bar for a long time. They understand the implications of a situation where all stakeholders reject the law. We are not making that law for Executive. It is the law for the Zambian people, which law must stand a test of time. It is a law that must be able to achieve the intended purpose. If the intended purpose is opposed by the citizens of Zambia, then we may end up making a law for ourselves as the Executive. 

Therefore, Madam Speaker, without boring you with tedious repetitions, I agree with the resolution of your Committee that Clause 3, on page 9, either be withdrawn for further consultation or we appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice to move an amendment at Committee Stage so that the law is made in tandem with the requirement by the people, who are the citizens of this country. We are making this law for them.

Madam Speaker, I want to emphasise that we support the other two Clauses as submitted by the Leader of the Opposition in the House. For Clause 3, we agree with the resolutions by your Committee that we do not proceed in the manner that the Executive has proposed.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity given to the people of Luena to add their voice to this debate. Madam Speaker, an effective, competent and reliable Judiciary is a cornerstone of the survival of any nation. A judiciary that citizens have confidence in is one that secures the security of the nation. It strikes without doubt that when the people do not have confidence in the Judiciary, they resort to all sorts of unsavoury means to resolve disputes. So, from the outset, I would like to suggest that the people of Luena do support the recommendations. They agree that dealing with issues of judges’ conditions of service is of paramount importance in order to ensure that we do have a reliable Judiciary.

Madam Speaker, the hope is that when the Judiciary is well taken care of, the citizens can expect justice. They can expect decisions that are without fear or favour. The experience of where we have come from sometimes leaves sour taste in the mouths of some citizens. In fact, a debate has raged on out there as to whether an independent Judiciary is equal to an unaccountable Judiciary. I would like to sublimit that these are not one and the same. The Judiciary can be independent but must be unaccountable. So, how are we going to ensure that the Judiciary is accountable? Certainly, the suggestion or the amendment being proposed here to move their determination of the conditions of service to be established in the Emoluments Commission is a step in the right direction. However, the citizens expect that beyond that, some more measures will be put in place to ensure that that our judges and justices are held to account for the decisions they make.

We have had situations Madam Speaker, even laymen in the streets could read the books of law better than some of the judgments that have been made in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, the people of Luena have long hoped and wished that the closer judiciary services will be to them, the quicker they will be able to access justice. I am aware now that the Government has taken measures in order to have resident High Court Judges …

Mr Chibombwe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka: …in all the provincial capitals. That is a welcome move. However, we hope that this will be extended to –

Madam Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. Madam Speaker, is the Member of Parliament, Hon. Anakoka, in order to insinuate that people from the streets could interpret the law better than our judges?

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: To the extent that the hon. Member said those words, that is out of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Twasa: He should withdraw!

Mr Anakoka: Well-guided, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: You may withdraw.

Mr Anakoka: I withdraw, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: You may continue with your debate.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, the people of Luena and many other Zambians are looking forward to a time where decisions by the courts will not be of a nature that is not satisfying to all the parties involved. In this regard, I would like to link it to the fact that, correctional facilities, as part of the chain of dispensing justice, whose report we were deliberating on just a little while ago, are sometimes a demonstration of some of the challenges we have in our administration of justice.

Madam Speaker, I have been to some of the correctional facilities. When I talked to some of the inmates to hear their views of how well or otherwise, they were treated by our justice system in particular, and the judiciary officers, I realised that there is a lot of work that the Ministry of Justice has to do. Therefore, Madam Speaker, as we support this amendment, we hope that the developments and the creation of the Emoluments Commission will result in better delivery of justice to our people even those who are in the most rural areas of our country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, thank you so very kind for permitting the good people of Lumezi to contribute to this Bill that has come before us. Madam Speaker, from the onset, I must mention that the people of Lumezi believe in the doctrine of the Separation of Powers. Madam Speaker, the good people of Lumezi believe in those that respect of the Constitution of the land as it is our supreme law. All the witnesses in the report are saying we cannot go and consult the President who happens to be the Head of the Executive.

Madam Speaker, previously, before today and in the near future, there are certain rulings from this House that have been taken to the judiciary because we believe that that is where justice is. If this Bill goes ahead the way it is by saying “in consultation with the President” it means we are first of all breaching the Constitution. Article 264(2) states:

       “The emoluments of a State officer, councillor, Constitutional office holder and a judge shall be determined

       by the Emoluments Commission, as prescribed.”

Now, this issue should be left with the Emoluments Commission as it is in the Constitution. If we need to change to meet some people’s aspirations, then let us start by amending the Constitution of the land. We cannot be here as law makers breaching the Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: It is very clear. Madam Speaker, we are living in moments where we seen that there is a debate out there that some people think there is interference with the Judiciary. You will hear that this judge has been removed, whether it is Constitutional or unconstitutional. It is a debate and we are here trying to support that which all witnesses objected. Can we give security of tenure to the Judiciary the way we have security of tenure as hon. Members of Parliament to debate freely. We need to maintain –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you very much, kind for permitting the good people of Lumezi to continue with their line of thought and to urge this House to respect the aspirations of your Committee that has brought us this report.

Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that when you go to the Committee's observation and recommendations, you will find where it says, your Committee is very concerned with the proposed amendments in Clause 3 of the Bill. Your Committee is of the view that the President ought not to have a role to play in the determination of the conditions of service and associated requisites of judges. This should be let solely to the Emoluments Commission as provided for under Articles 264(2) of the Republic Constitution, which relates to emoluments for a state officer, councilor or constitutional officer holder and judge.

Madam Speaker, indeed, we do not need to have the Republican President to be consulted when we are dealing with the Judiciary.

Madam Speaker, already, there is a public outcry that the transfer of magistrates had some Executive pressure. What we should have done a little bit better was to improve the securities of the Judiciary because today, most members of the Bench are not certain. What this House should be proposing is to enhance their security of tenure. What this House should be discussing is how to protect the Judiciary from being bribed and what helps the Judiciary to be impartial. So, to agree with this report, we need to amend what the Committee has said. We do not need the President to be consulted. It will be an assault on the justice system of the country.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, when I was listening to the hon. Member’s debate, I was almost thinking that actually, your Committee did recommend. However, if the Committee did agree with the recommendations from the stakeholders, especially on Clause 3, I feel that your Committee did the right thing.

Madam Speaker, when you look at some of these recommendations, I must note that it is actually dismaying to know that there could have been a thought of that nature. When we look at the independence of the three arms of the Government,  that is the bedrock of every function of democracy. In supporting the amendment of this Act, I would like to agree with the recommendations and without saying too much, Madam Speaker, as I was just going through, I feel that the Committee did justice.

Madam Speaker, as you would know, a good democracy must be built on consensus building by various stakeholders. As such, your Committee seems to have agreed with the stakeholders and we support the amendment of this Bill.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker gave the Floor to the hon. Member for Kanchibiya but he was not available.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Chama South to add a voice to this very important debate.

Madam Speaker, the House has to understand that judges are accountable to the Constitution and the law which they must apply honestly, independently and with integrity.

Madam Speaker, the doctrine of Separation of Powers in a democratic dispensation like ours is extremely important. If we allow the way the amendment has been brought on the Floor of the House, not only will we be abrogating the Constitution, but also, undermining this very important doctrine of Separation of Powers. The judges just like us Parliamentarians, should be left to independently operate and make decisions.

Madam Speaker, you can imagine the proposal that the Emoluments Commission makes a recommendation and then thereafter, takes it to the President for approval. You can imagine that, Madam Speaker. We are on record as a nation, even the current President – I am not an expert in diplomatic discourse, but I am as open as I am.  The current President and many other leaders in this august House have accused the crop of the current civil servants to be the Patriotic Front (PF) civil servants. You can imagine people who have served this country –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chama South.

Please stick to the Motion. Do not introduce other issues which are not relevant or related to the Bill. You may proceed.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I will be linking it to the Bill. Let me take your guidance, but I want to link my discussion to the Bill.

Madam Speaker, what we need is for Parliament to determine through the Standing Orders and other Committees on how to better the conditions of service. In my understanding of this law is that the amendment has been brought to Parliament simply to cure the issue of the judges. This is because the judges’ remuneration is prescribed in the subsequent legislation. So, this amendment was brought on the Floor of the House so that it could be in line with all the institutions of governance in our country. The remuneration should be determined by the Emoluments Commission. Why then should we allow it to be taken to the President?

Madam Speaker, all the witnesses have objected and it is not only that Madam Speaker. Even for His Excellency the President Mr Hakainde Hichilema, it is on record that he does not want to have all the powers.   

He said this whist in the Opposition? Why should the Minister of Justice do the Opposite of what His Excellence has been preaching? We support those two other amendments but that amendment, which has been opposed by all the witness that appeared before this Committee, should be amended. Therefore, I am requesting the Minister of Justice to temporally withdraw and amend it, then we will be ready to go.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I listened attentively to the debates that were made by various hon. Members of this august House, pertaining to the Motion on the Floor. It would appear that there is a very serious misconception, and as a result of that, fallacious submissions have been made on the Floor of this House. I have heard comments to the effect that there will be a breach of the Constitution if an amendment is made. There is a suggestion that the Judiciary is so independent in financing its operation, to the extent that no other authority should be involved. That argument is fallacious.

Madam Speaker, I would like to refer to Article 123 of the Constitution of Zambia, which was purportedly used by the Leader of the Opposition, in his submission. This particular Constitutional Clause, of Article 123(1) states:

        “(1) The Judiciary shall be a self-accounting institution and shall deal directly with the Ministry responsible

         for finance in matters relating to its finances.”

Madam Speaker, it therefore, follows that the Judiciary cannot determine its financing alone without the Executive. The final authority is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. The authority to deal with whatever recommendations dealing with finances in this country lies with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who reports to the President. The Minister of Finance and National Planning is an agent of the President of the Republic of Zambia.

Secondly, it has been said that by making recommendations to the commission, we will be breaching the Constitution. Madam Speaker, Article 234 is very clear, that whatever conditions of service for any institution in this country that is financed by the Government, has to go to the Emoluments Commission and there must be a recommendation by an authority. Once the authority recommends, the commission determines. There must be determination and recommendation.

Madam, there has been a very fallacious argument by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama South who said that the President is going to be determining after the Emoluments Commission. The answer is, “no”. The final determination is made by the Emoluments Commission. If anything, the purported recommendation that is under consideration now, is saying, the President shall recommend on behalf of the Judiciary to the Emoluments Commission so that the Emoluments Commission determines. That is how it is. The President does not determine. Even in the amendment which is being raised here, it does not say the President shall determine. The determination is made by the Emoluments Commission.

Madam Speaker, there is also an argument which has been equated to what obtains here at Parliament. Parliament is not the final authority. When the Standing Orders Committee makes a determination, it merely makes a recommendation to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who is the final authority. That is how it works. So you cannot say –

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: So, you cannot say any –

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. Madam Speaker, the hon. Member on the Floor is referring to the debates that were made on this side (left) of the House. He is misleading the nation by constantly stating that all the hon. Members who debated, referred to the determination and not to the recommendation. I wish to put on record that we correctly referred to what is in the proposed amendment, which is the recommendation to the Emoluments Commission. That is what we are objecting to. Is the hon. Member, therefore, in order to continue misleading the House by saying the hon. Members who debated referred to the determination and not the recommendation?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you, Hon. Leader of the Opposition. According to what the Bill, it says, on the recommendation of the President, the Emoluments Commission will determine. So, if there was maybe misapprehension or misunderstanding of each other, then maybe let the hon. Minister as he debates, stick to what is in the Bill, and what the hon. Members on the left had debated on the recommendation of the President.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, it is on record that the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama South did mention that the President is the one who is going to determine. That is why I am saying it is a misrepresentation and it is erroneous.

The Member of Parliament for Lumezi was saying it is a breach of the Constitution, hence my augment and quoting the law. I am not even arguing about the recommendation of your Committee. I am merely responding to what other members have said.

Madam Speaker, if there is a recommendation by the President, the final determination is the Emoluments Commission and it is not in any way at variance with the provisions of Article 234. Article 234 says that an authority shall recommend, and the President is an authority. So, there is no breach. If you have an argument that another authority should make a recommendation, you are justified to make that recommendation, but not to make an erroneous debate and suggest that there will be a Constitutional breach. There is none. The hon. Minister of Justice is firm on the provisions of the law.

Further, Madam Speaker, let it be known that there is no authority in this country that determines financial matters, without the authority of the hn. Minister of Finance and National Planning on all those who get funding from the Government. So, you cannot say there is no determination by the Executive.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I thank you. There is no point of order.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, today, I am determined to finish the order of business. So, let us not interrupt. Hon. Members were given an opportunity to debate and we are almost concluding. Bear with us, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to cap the debate on this issue.

Madam Speaker, I wish to begin by thanking all those who have debated the Motion on the Floor and also, your Committee for its report. Indeed, I wish to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Chawama who presented on behalf of your Committee.

Very briefly, Madam Speaker, in response to the recommendations of the Committee, I wish to make it clear that the proposed amendment to the Judges Conditions of Service Act is a consequential amendment following upon the enactment of the Emoluments Commission Act of 2022. That must be made absolutely clear.

Madam, further, your Committee suggested, and it was put in the arguments by the hon. Opposition Whip, that the conditions of service be extended to other judicial officers. We wish to note very quickly that it is a misnomer to suggest that this Act can be extended to other judicial officers as it is very specific to judges and their conditions of service. So, that is our brief response to the submissions in relation to the report and some of the arguments on the Floor, said in respect of the topical issue which is the amendment to Clause 3 of the Bill.

Madam Speaker, in order to put this discussion in its correct context, I would like to refer to the provisions of Section 3 of the Judges Conditions of Service Act No. 14 of 1996, which is the subject Act that the Bill intends to amend. Specifically, as I said, section 3 provided, and I quote:

      “There shall be paid to a Judge such emoluments as the President may, by Statutory Instrument prescribe”

Madam, this provision is what the Bill under consideration seeks to address. The people of Zambia and the hon. Members of this House will note that in the provision cited, which are sought to be amended, there was no discretion of any other person other than the President of the Republic of Zambia in the determination of judges’ conditions of service.

Madam Speaker, from 1996, when this Act was put into place, it was the President alone and nobody else. Interestingly, even though the hon. Members on your left are giving advice today, in 2016, the Constitution was amended to put in place the Emoluments Commission Act, yet no step was taken to bring before the Floor of the House the provisions of the Emoluments Commission Act and indeed, the particular matters which the hon. Members on your left now want to bring forward. Let us be sincere as we debate these matters.

Madam, so, from 1996 to date, it was only the President that determined conditions of service. Nobody argued prior to that, about the Separation of Powers being affected. What does this proposed amendment do? It dissolves and dilutes those powers that the President enjoyed from 1996 to date. We have taken the bull by its horns by, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Haimbe: … first of all, enacting the Emoluments Commission Act and then, further, going to provide for this amendment. What do I mean when I say “dissolves the power of the President?” It creates a step. Where previously the President was alone in the detrmination of these conditions of service, now the proposed Bill says “No, you will only recommend, Mr President”. The final determination is by the Emoluments Commission, which is an independent body as promulgated by law.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Haimbe: Madam Speaker, the Emoluments Commission does not do so blindly. There are clear provisions of the law as contained in the Emoluments Commission Act itself, specifically in Section 15, I believe, which provides the guidelines for the determination of emoluments of public officers, including judges. It is not done in a vacuum. They are set objective criteria so that we ensure that the independence and objectivity of this body, whose emoluments are being determined, are maintained.

Hon. Government Member: Quality!

Mr Haimbe: To quote the safeguards that are put in place in the Act, firstly, they look at the retention of staff. In determining the emoluments, the commission must ensure that what it does retains staff. In this regard, we are talking about specifically, the judges, to ensure that their conditions of service are such that they encourage judges to remain and not resign.

Madam Speaker, also, the other guiding principle is efficient performance. The manner in which emoluments are to be determined under the Emoluments Commission Act is to encourage efficient performance. Also, those emoluments reflect the level of responsibility of staff and further, maintenance of macro-economic stability and, finally, affordability and sustainability. These are all objective criteria that the Emoluments Commission, as an independent body, uses to determine the emoluments of judges.

Madam, it is, therefore, far from the truth to suggest in any way that this Act, or the proposed amendment to this Act, will result in a breach in the doctrine of the Separation of Powers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Haimbe: To the contrary, the amendment enhances that by providing that step and diluting the absolute power that the President enjoyed now, the President becomes a mere recommender instead of a decider. That is a fact that is undeniable

Madam Speaker, it has been suggested, and I think this came from the debate of the hon. Member for Parliament for Shiwang’andu, the Opposition Whip, that the judges must be left to determine their conditions of service as an authority themselves and make that recommendation to the Emoluments Commission. How does that enhance the Separation of Powers? It means, to all intents and purposes, that the very institution that wants its emoluments determined will do so on its own.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, just wait. You will put your point of order later. Let the hon. Minister finish. I want to finish my order of proceedings today.

Mr Haimbe: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Hansard will show that what I am submitting is the correct position.

Madam, it was also suggested by the hon. Member for Chama South that the Judiciary should be left alone to determine its conditions of service by making, I suppose, a recommendation to the Emoluments Commission of what it wants as an institution for the judges. How does that enhance the Separation of Power?

Madam Speaker, each arm of Government is amenable to checks and balances.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haimbe: It cannot be tenable for the institution itself to determine what it feels are the emoluments that are due and then go to the commission and say “give us this”. There must be checks and balances in everything that is done. So, the Separation of Powers is actually enhanced by allowing that step for the Executive wing of Government to check what the Judiciary wing of Government is doing, make their recommendation and then, on the principles enshrined in the law, a fair and objective determination of what ought to be due will be made. It is a beautiful concept that enhances the Separation of Powers.

Madam Speaker, all the arguments that have been made really are speculative as to whether the President wants to now step in and start to perform a function that he previously did not. The truth of the matter is that the President has always been a party to the determination of those emoluments. What this Bill does is simply enhance it by allowing for a recommendation, rather than the determination.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you can now raise your point of order. Sorry for allowing it later.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. I still appreciate the opportunity you have given me. The hon. Minister of Justice cited me in is debate. For the first time, I am surprised that the older hon. Members could go along with his insinuations. He said that all our debates were speculative. We had your report here, Madam Speaker, which informed our debates. We also have recommendations that were captured in your report.

In my debate, Madam Speaker, I referred to Article 264, and I want the hon. Minister of Justice to hear me. I referred to Article 264(1) which states: 

      “A public officer, a chief and a member of the House of Chiefs, shall be paid such emoluments as

       recommended by relevant authority or commission and determined by the Emoluments Commission.”

Madam Speaker, my argument was, if the spirit of this Article was to point to the President, all the functions of the President are prescribed here, and he is not referred to as an authority. It is very clear, and that is what I was saying. When I mentioned the Judiciary, Madam Speaker, just as an example that was given by Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, from the Standing Orders and the recommendations, the Judiciary is an institution and an authority. It is in the Standing Orders that he referred to.

So, for the hon. Minister of Justice to try and mislead all of us here and your Committee, which made recommendations from which we were making speculative debates, is something that we cannot take, Madam Speaker. It is a well-known practice in this august House that when your Committee is appointed and it makes recommendations, we should go by the recommendations of your Committee, …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: … unless your Committee is becoming irrelevant.

Madam Speaker, my point of order is: Was the hon. Minister of Justice in order to make insinuations that all of us here, including your Committee, were making speculative comments on this issue? He knows that the Emoluments Commission Act he referred to, which he brought to this House, has nullified the status quo he is referring to, which gave the President powers to recommend, all for the reasons that are cited in this Article.

So, Madam Speaker, is he in order to lump all our debates as speculative, including your Committee? I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. You have raised a point of order, which you have sufficiently debated. You have even responded to the issues, which you are saying were raised by the hon. Minister in his debate. To the extent that the hon. Minister said the debate on the other side was speculative, that was not a good word to use. I think that was wrong. The hon. Minister can withdraw the word “speculative,” so that we can continue debating in harmony. 

Mr Haimbe: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. I withdraw the use of the word “speculative” in respect of the two hon. Members of Parliament specifically, that I referred to in terms of their debates, which is the hon. Member for Lumezi and the hon. Member for Chama South, and replace the use of the word “speculative” with “not based on a factual position”.

I am most obliged, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you. Let us make progress.

Question put and negatived.

Hon. Government Member: How?

Hon. Government Members called for a division.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: The division has been called. Hon. Members, as we vote, let us not use the microphones. Others use the microphones, others do not. So, it is very difficult to discern which group was said “No”. So, that is why we have come to this conclusion. However, unfortunately, our system that we use for voting is not yet ascertainable and cannot be relayed upon. So, what we do is, we can suspend the voting and use another way of voting. The Clerks at the Table will be able to advise which system we are going to use to vote on that Motion. However, in the meantime, we can continue as the mechanism for voting is being worked on. We can continue with the order of Business.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we are very grateful for your guidance and indeed, we can wait as much as we can so that the system we are going to use gives us results that are going to be acceptable all the hon. Members. However, I have one concern to the hon. Members on your Committee. I see that some of the hon. Members of your Committee, whose report we are tabling are participating. I have seen the Chairperson and other hon. Members participating. May they be guided on the procedure of how the report must be handled by members of your Committee?  They need your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! I think I will need to consult on that.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: The division has already been called for. Since we are going to vote – My guidance is that the members the Committee made a recommendation on the Bill. So, they are not supposed to participate. What I have been informed is that they cannot vote against their report. So, we will see how it goes.  The hon. Minister of Justice may take the Floor, maybe, just to guide.  

Mr Haimbe: Madam Speaker, I am begging the pardon of this honourable House to seek further clarification. The report has got two sets of recommendations in respect of what is stated. In fact, the ultimate conclusion of the report is that the Bill goes ahead, except for a provision in there which is in relation to Clause 3. So, in that instance, how can it be determined that they are voting against their own report, when it is a double-pronged contention that is contained in there?

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: What the hon. Minister has just stated is that there are several amendments that are contained in the Bill. The Committee does not only support the second one relating to Section 3. So, it is very difficult for them to say that they are against the whole Bill. It is only one aspect that they were against. It is very tricky here, but if we are going to vote – Maybe, let us take the vote again without the microphones.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Hon. PF Members: No!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, if we are talking about an amendment, there is a procedure of amending a Bill on the Floor. The hon. Minister of Justice has to move an amendment. Before that, there is no amendment. That is the procedure.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: No, there is no amendment. Tell me, which amendment you are talking about?

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: You cannot vote on an amendment which is in a report. The amendment has to be moved at Committee Stage. That is how amendments are moved. So, what are you talking about?

Madam Speaker: Further, the Bill is still supposed to go through the Third Reading. It is at that Committee Stage –

Hon. PF Members: No, it has failed!

Madam Speaker: Okay, I think let us make arrangements to vote today, so that we clear this issue. In the meantime, let us finish the business on the Order of Proceedings as the Clerk and the Information and Communications Technology (ICT) Department make arrangements for us to vote. That is the only way we can resolve this matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Naipona!

Madam Speaker: Order!

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL ECONOMY, TRADE AND LABOUR MATTERS

(Debate resumed)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, yesterday, before business was interrupted, I was in the middle of responding to the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters. In my response, I was focusing on the point raised in the report which expressed misgivings about the frequent changes in mine taxation and how this has adversely affected our mining sector.

In my debate, I was agreeing with the stance taken by the Committee. Further, while changes to the mine taxation have been there in other Administrations before, such practices of changing mine taxes so frequently, had reached unprecedented levels under the Patriotic Front (PF) Administration.

Madam Speaker, it has not just been changes in the tax regime that have destabilised our mining sector. During the last ten years, the Value Added Tax (VAT) refunds legally due to mining companies, just like any other business that pays and claims VAT, were withheld and spent by the previous Government. This has left a huge bill for the Government in terms of the VAT claims. These VAT claims are now part of this overall big Zambian debt, going to billions of United States (US) Dollars.

In this regard, Madam Speaker, I am amazed that someone from the other side claims that under the PF Government, a lot of mineral tax revenue was collected. That assertion, of course, is wrong because out of whatever you collected, you must subtract now the VAT that you were withholding and never paid back. So, if you make that calculation of what you collected plus the huge debt in VAT that you left behind, you will actually discover that in actual fact, you did not collect much.

Madam Speaker, as a result of this instability in the taxing regime, the mining industry in Zambia has suffered a lot in the last ten years. Yesterday, I was saying that our hon. Colleagues have been very competent at closing mines. Whereas, the mining sector was expanding under President Mwanawasa and President Banda, under the PF, it stagnated.

Amb. Kalimi: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: If we compare to our colleagues in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), twelve years ago, the DRC was only producing half of what Zambia was producing. We were at 800,000 metric tonnes and the DRC was at 400,000 metric tonnes. Today, the DRC is producing 1.5 million metric tonnes of copper, but Zambia has stagnated at 800,000 metric tonnes. If you go to the board at Kasumbalesa, you will see the congestion of trucks going into the DRC, meaning that there is a lot of business that is taking place. On our side, there is nothing. The fault of this was the PF Government that did not provide a conducive environment for the mining sector to expand. It is now left up to the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government to pick up the pieces and create a stable environment, so that we get to 3 million metric tonnes of copper per year.

Madam Speaker, it is amazing also to hear some of the hon. Colleagues who were saying that we should copy Chile, where the mining sector is expanding. However, what is amazing is that I wonder what kind of books they read because they were saying that in Chile, all the mines are actually owned by the Government. What a fallacy because a lot of the copper that we are talking about in Chile is actually produced by the private sector, such as Anglo-American Plc, BHP Mining Company, Rio Tinto Group and so on and so forth. Today, Chile is one of the richest countries in the world. Ours is not. Why? It is because copper mining has stagnated and this stagnation was at its worst under the period of the PF Government and now the UPND must pick up the pieces …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Dr Musokotwane: … to revive the industry.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, I have indicated that the past two days we have failed to go through the order of proceedings because of the several points of order that have been raised. We have lost one day’s work because of points of order. So, I am not allowing a point of order at this stage.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, in winding up this debate, I wish to place on record that we are very grateful as your Committee, for contributions that have been made by all those who took time to debate this particular Motion. I will be very quick to also mention that I was worried on behalf of your Committee at some point that the debate seemed to have been digressing from what was at hand. Your Committee undertook a study of a topic we call diversification of the mining sector. This means that we wanted your Committee to acquaint itself with our findings over the possibilities or the opportunities that lie in the other mining facets. Our worry is that along the debate, we digressed and went to continue talking about copper, which your Committee wanted to suggest perhaps that we do not focus on.

Madam Speaker, we want to appeal to the Executive that there seems to be a great potential in the other mining facets that this country can take advantage of. Through our tours and findings, it is possible that Zambia can thrive and rise above its challenges, if we focus the same energies we have placed on the copper mining sector on these other mining facets. We would have loved Madam Speaker, as your Committee, to have gone out to undertake a tour of what is happening in other jurisdictions. Of course, with financial constraints, we are unable to do that but we are very confident that whatever we picked up on our tours and from the submissions of our stakeholders, it is sufficient if the Executive can acquaint itself with the findings which are in the report.

Madam Speaker, with that said, on behalf of your Committee, we are grateful for the opportunity given to us as your Committee to do this noble cause.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

Madam Speaker: Before we adjourn to make arrangements for the voting, I would like to clarify one point. I think there was an issue concerning members of your Committee. There was a concern that they cannot vote on the  Committee. Hon. Members let me clarify. The position is that members of the Committee can still vote because the report of the Committee is not a Bill and it is not binding. So, members of the Committee that considered the Bill can vote in a manner that they want. The report on a Bill is just for information of the House and assists the Members in debating. That is why it is not presented to the House by way of Motion but rather, by way of report. The Bill is a different subject matter and members of the  Committee can vote whichever way they wish to vote on the Bill.

Thank you.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1754 hours to 1813 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, just for purposes of clarity. The Bill before the House where we are supposed to vote, is whether it should go for a Second Reading. We are not voting on the Report of the Committee that considered the Bill, neither are we voting on the Bill. So, the issue is that: Should the Bill be read the second time? That is the issue before the House. I believe after consultations, a consensus has been reached that we proceed in that manner. Consequently, I will put the question again.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to the Committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 22^nd June, 2022.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, thank you. It is just a procedural issue, like you rightly pointed out. There was some consultation between us, but we are rather taken aback that the matter was put back to a vote.

Madam Speaker: Sorry, I did not hear that.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, whilst we were on break, we engaged the Chief Whip on the other side (right). Yes, I think some consensus was arrived at, but not necessarily that we had to cast a second vote. That is why the hon. Opposition Members keep quiet when the question was being put because they were taken aback. That is not what we agreed upon.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Leader of the Opposition, how else will the Bill be sent for Second

Reading, unless if we make a decision here? From the discussion and consensus, it was agreed that the Bill be read the second time. We had to make a decision procedurally so that the Bill could be read the Second Reading. That is what I understand.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the point my hon. Colleague was trying to raise is that, after consultations with the Clerk, the First Deputy Speaker and our colleagues in the Executive, we agreed mutually that we allow the Bill to proceed mutually to avoid the voting that was to take place.

Interjections

Madam Speaker: Allow the hon. Member to proceed. 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, procedurally, when a division is called, the next move is to vote other than the question you pose. That is the arrangement. Now, going back to the same voting is now unprocedural because when the division was called for, we were supposed to proceed to vote using the gadgets but we did not. So, mutually, we agreed to avoid that system because both sides were not comfortable with it.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Those who were not part of the discussion, please, let us be quiet. So, we agreed that we could proceed with the Bill without you posing a question, which would have taken us back to the status quo, because the division had already been called. So, for us to revert to the first stage, it was going to be unprocedural. That was the gist of the discussion. I think the hon. First Deputy Speaker was a witness to this discussion. That is our submission, Madam Speaker.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, and that is well noted. Procedurally, we had gone up to a division stage and we were waiting to vote, but before we could vote, the hon. Members both on the left and right, including the hon. First Deputy Speaker had a discussion and you agreed that the Bill goes for Second Reading. So under the circumstances, since you agreed, the only way procedurally, to have the Bill go for Second Reading is if we make a decision in this House. So, the issue of voting was revisited, and that is why I put the question so that we formally take back the Bill for a Second Reading. There was nothing wrong with that. It is just procedure. Can we make progress?  

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!         

________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Madam Speaker: The question is that the House do now adjourn. Any debate …

Mr Munir Zulu: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: …any objection?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, can you leave the Chamber. Please, leave the Chamber.

Mr Munir Zulu left the Assembly Chamber.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1820 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 17^th June, 2022.

____________