Tuesday, 7th June, 2022

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Tuesday, 7th June, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, let me acquaint the House with the business it will consider this week. However, before I proceed, let me start by welcoming all hon. Members to the Third Meeting of the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, whose main focus is consideration of reports of parliamentary Committees.

Madam, let me now turn to the Business the House will consider this week. As indicated on the Order Paper for today, Tuesday, 7th June, 2022, the House will deal with Questions for Oral Answer.

Madam Speaker, tomorrow, Wednesday, 8th June, 2022, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any.

Madam Speaker, on Thursday, 9th June, 2022, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. Thereafter, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will consider the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources.

Madam, on Friday, 10th June, 2022, the Business of the House will begin with the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer. Thereafter, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will debate the Second Reading stage of The Judges (Conditions of Service) (Amendment) Bill No. 6 of 2022. Thereafter, the House will consider the Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs Affairs.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR MUNIR ZULU, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUMEZI, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF TOURISM, MR SIKUMBA, ON THE CANCELLATION OF HUNTING CONCESSIONS

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you so much, kind Madam Speaker. I am raising this matter directed at the hon. Minister of Tourism.

Madam Speaker, I am a message-carrier from the good people of Lumezi that the cancellation of the hunting concessions has posed a great threat to the people in Lumezi. The hunting concessions were cancelled even when the Attorney-General had given a solid opinion on the matter. This has been widely circulated in most of our tabloids. There is an article entitled “Wildlife in GMA risk being depleted - Moomba Community” dated 2nd June.

Madam Speaker, I know one of the newspapers has Iris Kaingu on the front page, but the detail is in the papers. In yesterday’s edition, the newspaper has an article entitled “Hunting Business Saga Could Spell Political Trouble for HH.” It is all talking about the cancelled hunting concessions. For us in Lumezi, just like our brothers in Itezhi-Tezhi, our brothers in Liuwa, our brothers in Chama, our brothers in Nyimba ...

Hon. Member: And sisters.

Mr Munir Zulu: ... and sisters, those are our black mountains. That is what benefits the local people. If this matter is not addressed, the animals will be on the loose like we have heard in Mulobezi where lions have gone hunting for the local people.

Madam Speaker, with this submission, permit me to lay these newspapers on the Table for your further guidance.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu laid the papers on the Table.

MR J. E. BANDA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT, MR NKOMBO, ON THE CDF PROCESS

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Thank you, Madam Speaker. First, let me convey my best wishes to the Zambia National Soccer team, which is playing today.

Madam Speaker, the good people of Petauke are experiencing challenges. Many people are dying due to the long distance to the hospital. The pupils in all the schools in Petauke are infected with pneumonia because of sitting on the floor, Madam Speaker. The community in Petauke District or constituency has no clean water. Akumwa manzi pa michela.

Hon. Members: Meaning?

Mr J. E. Banda: Drinking water from a well.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Banwa meenda muchi kala.

Madam Speaker, the good people of Petauke heard the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, announce that he released the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for the first time last year in September. The K1.6 million was released to all the constituencies, including my constituency, “Peta-UK.”

Madam Speaker, the good people of Petauke are worried and are not happy that they are no longer beneficiaries of the CDF. The beneficiaries of CDF now are the banks, countrywide, Madam Speaker. So, the good people of Petauke are asking if this House can intervene by shortening the process of accessing the CDF. The process of using CDF money is too long. Some health posts in Petauke are just waiting to use the same CDF money to buy hospital equipment and health post equipment. Even water projects need the money. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development already approved these projects and money was allocated to them. However, the money has been sitting in the account for more than seven months. Every day, the banks are benefiting through the interest accruing on this money, and it is not going to the people of Petauke and Zambia at large, Madam Speaker.

I rest my case, Madam Speaker.

I thank you, Madam.

MR MTAYACHALO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHAMA NORTH, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF TOURISM, MR SIKUMBA, ON THE MAN-ANIMAL CONFLICT IN THE CONSTITUENCY

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mtayachalo: Thank you, Madam Speaker. First of all, forgive me; my voice is very hoarse because you know we run rural constituencies which are very vast.

 

Madam Speaker, you are alive to the fact that hon. Members of Parliament have just returned from their constituencies where they went to engage their electorates. To speak on behalf of the people of Chama North, the man-animal conflict has been on the increase. I have spoken to the hon. Minister of Tourism several times over this matter but it seems we are not finding a lasting solution to the man-animal conflict in Chama District, particularly Chama North and Chama South.

 

Madam Speaker, as I am talking, elephants, buffalos, bush pigs and lions are on rampage even around the Boma there. Up now, the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) has failed to spot those lions, and they have eaten all the crops in Katangalika, in Mwimba, in Chibale and in Malama villages. They come in villages even by 1600 hours.

Madam Speaker, if we continue to allow animals to have dominion over human beings, then food security and human lives will be in danger.

I need your serious indulgence, Madam Speaker, on this matter.

I thank you, Madam.

MR KAPYANGA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MPIKA, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON THE HUNGER SITUATION IN NABWALYA CHIOMBO CHIEFDOM

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity given to me and the people of Mpika, to raise a matter of urgent pubic importance pursuant to Standing Order No. 134.

Madam Speaker, in Mpika, we have a chiefdom called Nabwalya Chiombo, which is about 118 km from Mpika Town. This chiefdom has literally no road connecting to it and it is in the North Luangwa National Park. The chiefdom is all a national park. Therefore, whatever crops they grow are grazed by wild animals. In the past, there was a tour operator who was operating there under the name of Sitatunga. Whenever there was hunger, he would come to help the people with food hampers and any kind of relief food. This time around, he is not there, I am told. So, the hunger situation in Nabwalya Chiombo has gone to levels where our people now are surviving on wild roots. They cannot have a meal, they have nowhere to get food, and there is no road to enable them to come to Mpika to buy any food even if they had money. They literally have to depend on relief food from the Government under the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU). We submitted a report on this matter through the systems put in place under the DMMU but up to now, the people have not been supplied with relief food. This matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker, therefore, is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President.

I seek your serious indulgence, Madam Speaker.

I thank you, Madam. 

MR KANG’OMBE, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KAMFINSA, ON HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON THE WATER CRISIS IN KITWE

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kang’ombe: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Allow me to raise an urgent matter of public importance pursuant to Standing Order No. 134, affecting the people of Kamfinsa Constituency as well as the four other constituencies of Kitwe.

Madam Speaker, we have a crisis of water in Kitwe. Kitwe is a city with a population of over 1 million, and as you might be aware, the five constituencies are well represented in this House. I stand to bring to the attention of Her Honour the Vice-President, the crisis of water, which has affected the people of Kitwe, and my constituency in particular. I am aware that we have had no access to water in most parts of the city, resulting in people lining up to use water from boreholes that are provided by individuals.

Madam Speaker, I direct this urgent matter to Her Honour the Vice-President. It qualifies to be an urgent matter of public importance.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: How long has that situation been? When did the water crisis start?

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, we have not had water in Kitwe in the last three weeks.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. We will start with the problem for Lumezi, which is the hunting concession cancellation. I will direct this one to the hon. Minister of Tourism so that he can render a ministerial statement on Tuesday, next week.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The second matter came from the hon. Member for Petauke Central Constituency. Unfortunately, hon. Member, you brought out a number of issues which disqualify this urgent matter. You talked about people dying due to the long distances they cover to get to the hospitals, children sleeping on the floor and the issue of no clean water. Then you talked about the beneficiaries of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) being the banks and that the CDF is sitting in the bank. For a matter to be considered or allowed under this Standing Order, it has to be one straight issue. However, this one is congested with many issues. Therefore, I advise you, hon. Member, to use the other avenue that you can use to raise all these very important issues that you combined in one statement.

Hon. Member for Chama North, you talked about the man-animal conflict in the area. This issue was dealt with in the last meeting, but you have brought it again and indicated that the problem is worsening, and that all the food from the fields has been eaten by the animals. Therefore, the people might face hunger very soon. For this one, I also ask the hon. Minister of Tourism to come up with a ministerial statement to address this problem in Chama North, probably on the same day, that is, Tuesday, as he makes a ministerial statement for Lumezi.

The hon. Member for Mpika talked about the hunger situation in Nabwalya. Hon. Member for Mpika, I do not know whether or not you have consulted Her Honour the Vice-President –

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, thank you so much. We have a disaster management committee at district level and even at provincial level. We submitted those reports and we have also checked with the national office here in Lusaka but there has not been anything that has been done since December when we submitted the report on this matter.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Now, this seems to be an on-going problem. It started in December. Whereas the issues that we are looking at can be urgent and of public importance, they must have occurred recently in order to be allowed. So, for that, much as it is very important, hon. Member for Mpika, I advise you to make a follow up with the Office of the Vice-President or raise it under an urgent question. We cannot wait any longer to have this issue dealt with. The hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa brought in an issue of a water crisis in Kitwe, which started three weeks ago. I don’t know if he has reported the issue to the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Mr. Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, the matter has been reported but the steps to rectify the matter have not been taken.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Since they say that water is life and no steps have been taken, I would advise the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation to come up with a ministerial statement which you can render to this House on Friday this week.

Interruptions

Mr. B. Mpundu: Point of order Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: On whom are you raising the point of order because we have just started?

Mr. B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I’m raising a point of order on the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What has he breached because he is not even on the Floor?

Mr. B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, Parliamentary Procedure stipulates that information brought to this House must be accurate.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, the Standing clearly state that when you raise a point of order, it has to be on procedure; the happening in the House.

Mr. B. Mpundu: This is related to the business in the House during the last meeting and I am just bringing it to your attention.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I think we have just started. I do not even see where a breach has occurred.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF SESHEKE-IMUSHO ROAD

314. Mr. Kangombe (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development the following questions:

       (a)   when the construction of the Sesheke-Imusho Road in Sesheke District will commence;

       (b)   what the cause of the delay in commencing the project is;

       (c)   who the contractor for the project is;

       (d)   what the total cost of the project is; and

       (e)   what the time frame for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, we answer as follows:

Madam, the construction of the Sesheke-Imusho Road will commence once financial closure is attained between the contractor and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, the delay in commencement of the project was caused by failure by the contractor to attain financial closure.

Madam, the project was awarded to China Civil Engineering Construction Corporation Zambia Limited (CCECC).

Madam Speaker, the cost of the project is estimated at a contract sum of US$15, 993,327.68 VAT inclusive.

Madam Speaker, the project completion is estimated at 60 calendar months from the date of commencement.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Nkana who wanted to raise a point of order can do so now. He has run away. He has moved out of the House. Can we have supplementary questions to Question 314.

Mr. Kangombe: Madam Speaker, I thank you and thank the hon. Minister. For the information of the hon. Minister so that he can appreciate what this Imusho is. Imusho is one place that for you actually to reach it as at now, you have to go through Namibia. There is no any other road other than going through Namibia and these people have been living like that since independence. Now, with the coming of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), it has been very difficult for the people of Imusho to access proper service delivery from the Government to an extent that as I speak now, the people of Imusho are completely cut off from the rest of the country.

Now, with the response that the hon. Minister has given me on behalf of the people of Imusho, it is not quite indicative as to when the people of Imusho will once again feel that they are part of this country. Would the hon. Minister be kind enough to indicate even the short term measures as we are still waiting for that contractor to finalize these financial closures and what not so that the people of Imusho can also access the service delivery that the rest of the country is accessing from the country. Could the hon. Minister be kind enough to at least play mathematics and do something. We have confidence in the hon. Minister.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Sesheke for the follow up question. The people of Imusho and their plight has been well known to the country for many years. Those who are old enough remember the time when we had a conflict with the South Africans in South West Africa and so on; the difficulties and sufferings that they went through. The remoteness of Imusho is known to this current administration.

Madam Speaker, the answers I give here are indicative of the situation as it exists at the moment. For the benefit of the hon. Member of Parliament and the people of Imusho, I will give a bit of background. The Sesheke/Imusho Road was scheduled to be constructed as part of the National Feeder Roads Phase III Contract, which was earmarked for execution using the CFI mode of financing. The project could not commence as new and pipeline debt by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning in order to keep the country’s debt at sustainable levels. This was before we assumed office. The contract was signed on 4th September, 2020. The entire project covered 1000km spread across the Western, the North-Western, Muchinga and Copperbelt provinces.

Madam, the National Feeder Roads Phase III Contract was planned to be implemented using the Out-Put Performance Contract (OPRC) model. Under the OPRC model of contracting, the contractor is engaged by the Government to undertake work in a period of five years. The first two years, the contractor undertakes improvement works and then continues to carry out maintenance work in the last three years of the contract.

Under the Contractor Facilitated Initiative (CFI) mode of contracting, the contractor facilitates the finances for the project and the works only commence upon financial closure being attained between financier and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, it looks like this is not proceeding for two reasons: the contractor has failed to find this finance and being aware of the current situation, even if now the contractor was to find this finance, the Government, at the moment, has no appetite for further contraction or for contraction of further loans because of the indebtedness in which the country finds itself.

Madam Speaker, to give hope to the people of Imusho, we have a World Bank Improved Rural Connectivity Project and the Western Province was one of those that were left out of this particular project. So, what the Government is doing is engaging the World Bank again to see if some money could then be allocated which could be directed towards the provinces which were left out, which in this particular case were the Western, the North-Western, Copperbelt and Lusaka provinces.

Madam Speaker, if we are able to do this, I can assure the hon. Member for Sesheke that the Sesheke-Imusho Road would be a priority in the Western Province.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Daka (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, thank you –

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 206, on dress code. Is the hon. Member for Chilubi in order to dress like a woman? Madam Speaker, he is wearing a skirt and a jacket like he wants to mislead this House into gayism. He is wearing a skirt, a jacket and a shirt inside. I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, would you kindly stand up because we cannot see you.

Laughter

Mr Fube rose.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you can sit as I make my ruling.

Mr Fube resumed his seat.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. Standing Order No. 206 clearly spells out the dress code for hon. Members of Parliament, both the males and the females. Hon. Member, from what I can see, you are basing that on wearing traditional attire, but we do not have such traditional attire. Therefore, –

Hon. Member: It is a Musisi.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: It is not a Musisi.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

The hon. Member is definitely out of order to come dressed in that attire.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, if you want to wear traditional attire, make sure it is a decent one and we all know it, such as the siziba. So, hon. Member, you may leave the House to go and change.

Mr Fube left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr J. Daka: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chadiza an opportunity to ask a question on this very important matter. I thank the hon. Minister for a very elaborate response to the question at hand. However, there are times when the contractor fails to attain financial closure in as far as the Public Private Partnership (PPP) model is concerned. My question is: what measures has the Government put in place in case this contractor fails to reach the financial closure to ensure that the people who use the road in question still get the intended benefits?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, this particular project had nothing to do with the Public Private Partnership (PPP) model. It was a contractor facilitated financial project. So, if a contractor says I am going to find money to undertake a project, and that contractor fails to find this money, in other words, fails to reach financial closure, it presents problems because it means if the Government has to proceed with that, it would have to find money from somewhere else. In this particular case, this project was offered in 2020, and it would appear that the Government then failed to find the money. The answer that I have given is that this will then be considered under the World Bank facilitated Improved Rural Connectivity Project when we are able to source the money and hopefully, it will be later this year.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kangombe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that assurance. We can only wish and pray that those negotiations can be concluded soonest and I am pretty sure the people of Imusho are watching. I assure the hon. Minister that if the people of Imusho are not going to receive that, I shall be here again to remind him.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, thank you for that comment.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama south): Madam Speaker, sorry for the delay. The Information Technology (IT) delayed to mute me. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister, who has stated that works on Imusho Road were discontinued because of fiscal measures. One of the reasons he gave was that the Government was told to discontinue borrowing.

Madam Speaker, for the benefit of the people of Imusho and other communities of this country, is he in a position to come and lay on the Table of this House a list of all projects which were discontinued because of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) intervention of preventing the Government from further borrowing, so that the people of Imusho should also understand that there are other people or communities in this country who were affected by that decision?

Eng Milupi: Madam Speaker, in my answer earlier, there was nothing said about the International Monetary Fund (IMF). This project was actually signed on 4th September, 2020 and it did not only cover Imusho, but it also covered about 1,000km spread across the Western Province, the North-Western Province and the Copperbelt Province. So, where the hon. Member for Chama South gets the idea that it had anything to do with the IMF, I really do not understand. It was contractor-facilitated finance, and in the event of the contractor failing – At that time, the Government was able to borrow, there was no issue about the International Monetary Fund (IMF). It was just a question that the contractor failed to reach financial closure. In other words, the contractor failed to live up to his promise to find finances for these contracts.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before we take the last question, a point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I will take you to Standing Order No. 77. In 1993, we lost football players of the Republic of Zambia in Gabon. Three days ago, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts chartered a faulty aircraft and it is possible that the hon. Minister would have equally perished on that trip to Abidjan. Rumour has it that the Government paid US$ 275,000. I think we deserve an explanation from the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts on that issue.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Much as there was an accident in Gabon years back, people have not stopped travelling. Therefore, there is no way we are going to be thinking about the accident that happened each time the national team is travelling. Life has to move on. So, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts was in order to allow the footballers to travel so that they can represent Zambia in that match.

Mr Munir Zulu: With a faulty plane, Madam Speaker?

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister may be aware, road works, are done from around June up to somewhere in November, when it is not raining. What assurance is the hon. Minister giving the people of Imusho to start mobilising so that works can start moving? Unless he tells us that this will not be done this year, this is the period I may say, his ministry has to be more vibrant, it is now up to October. I know that in our constituencies, each one of us has a road that needs to be done and the time is now. What assurance is the hon. Minister giving the people of Imusho?

Eng Milupi: Madam Speaker, there is a process which we go through for the implementation of these projects. The first part is to ensure that you have money to undertake these works. If you have no money, you cannot undertake a project. The reason we are in the situation that we are in now in terms of the amount of money we owe everybody else is because projects were issued or contracts were given when there was no money to back up those contracts. On this particular issue, what I have said is that we, as Government, are approaching the World Bank to facilitate the extension of the improved rural roads connectivity. When this is done, the first step would have been reached. That means there will be finance, then we will engage new constructors. However, before we get money, whether it is in the dry season or wet season or seasons in between, it is impossible to give an assurance. I hope that the hon. Member can allow us to go through the process. It is only through that process that we can begin to undertake projects such as these, which are very necessary and this is not the only one. There are many others throughout this country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

REHABILITATION OF THE NDEKE MINI MART ROAD

315. Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba) (on behalf of Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa)) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

      (a)   whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the Ndeke/Mini Mart Road in Bwana Mkubwa

             Parliamentary Constituency;

      (b)   if so, when the plans will be implemented;

      (c)  what the estimated cost of the project is; and

      (d)   what the estimated time frame for the completion of the project is.

 Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to rehabilitate the Ndeke/Mini Mart Road in Bwana Mkubwa Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, plans will be implemented once funds for the project are available.

Madam, the estimated cost of the project will be known once designs have been prepared and the contractor has been procured.

Madam Speaker, the estimated timeframe for the completion of the project will be known once the designs have been concluded.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Article 65(b), which states that information provided on the Floor of this House should be factual and verifiable. I raise this point of order on the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. I asked a follow up question as to whether the contract for Imusho Road, which our people in Sesheke need like yesterday, was cancelled or was delayed because of advice in terms of avoidance of further debt contraction. The hon. Minister has stated that is not the case, yet we made a follow up not only to him as hon. Minister now but to the previous hon. Ministers as well, to find out why this project stalled. The answer was that, when the Patriotic Front (PF) Government was in power, the IMF advised the Government when it started negotiations to stop contracting further debt. This led to a number of projects stalling. Some projects have turned out to have been fraudulent. People try to portray that the Government then was engaged in fraud, yet the IMF advised so. It is the PF Government that started the IMF negotiations.

Mr Kapala: Question!

Mr Mung’andu: You can say question, you are not the one who started. This is the background.

Is he in order to mislead us that the Government on its own then, because it is not the United Party for National Development (UPND) that started the construction of this road. The Minister said the project started in 2020, but in 2020, the UPND was nowhere near forming Government. Is he, therefore, in order, to mislead the House by saying that that the cancellation was his personal decision, when it was the advice of the IMF to the Government then not to continue contracting debts?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. I reserve my ruling so that I get more details on the same and compare what the hon. Minister stated and what you are saying.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, I am a bit worried about the response from the hon. Minister looking at the stretch we are talking about which is from Bwana Mkubwa or should I say from Bridge Shipping into town, somewhere at Masala Roundabout.

Madam, it is sad that the hon. Minister is giving us the answer today that there are no drawings and that they are still waiting for money. This is one of the most important roads this country has. It is building up traffic entering into and coming out of Ndola. This is a road which should be our pride as a country. At this time, eight months into Government, the hon. Minister is telling me that the Government has no plans yet or that it is looking for money. This is saddening. Can the hon. Minister tell us if this road will be done in these five years or the next cycle of the United Party for National Development (UPND,) maybe after 2026?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, we are dealing with the legacy issues. I stated in my answer that this particular project was part of a larger project. To give a more detailed response, the rehabilitation of this particular one, which is the Ndeke Mini-Mart Road, was planned as part of a variation under the Zambia Township Roads Project which was initially funded using the Contractor Facilitated Initiative (CFI) mode of financing. The variation was to be financed by the Government of the Republic of Zambia. However, the project stalled due to financing challenges being faced by the Government resulting from the overcommitments in the road sector by the previous Government.

Madam, the background to the Zambia Urban and Township Roads Project is that it was given to AVIC-International Project Engineering Company and the total sum was US$232,225,621, including Value Added Tax (VAT). The loan amount from Exim Bank of 85 per cent was US$197,391,777.85. An advance payment of 15 per cent which is equivalent to US$34,833,843.15. The amount certified so far was US$222,137,984. A total amount of US$49,706,300 is owed to the contractor in four unpaid interim payment certificates (IPCs). A total of US$788,737 is due as interest and US$49,706,300 is owed to the contractor in the four unpaid IPCs. We have a balance of US$10,087,637.

Madam Speaker, on this particular project, a total of 159.86 km of roads have been constructed in Chingola. This project was not just for this Mini-Mart Road, but roads were constructed in Chingola, Kitwe and Mufulira translating to an oversubscription of 105 per cent of physical progress.

Madam, these are some of the projects that we are having to tidy up. I have said before on the Floor of this House that because of financial limitations, we are having to go through stages of dealing with the vast debt that we have in this country. On conclusion of that, we have promised as a Government that we shall come to the Floor of this House with a Supplementary Budget. It is from that that the window to complete some of these roads like that one may present itself.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, as a Member of Parliament from the Copperbelt, Ndola in particular, I am worried about the answer coming from the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. This House has four hon. Members of Parliament from Ndola District; Masaiti, Kapiri Mposhi, Kabwe Central, Chibombo and Katuba. The road in question is an economic road and it is not only a portion that is being discussed here.

Madam, I just want to know from the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development if the Government has any priorities in dealing with roads in our country because the road in question is an economic road and I am worried that the hon. Minister for the Copperbelt Province is sleeping there because his province is in question.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, the road in question leads to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and many other economic areas like Solwezi and Kalumbila. Can the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development assure the people of the Copperbelt when this road is going to be done?

Mr J. Chibuye: On a point of order, Madam, Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister for the Copperbelt is not sleeping. I am sure the hon. Member said that on a lighter moment.

Laughter

Mr J. Chibuye: On a point of order, Madam, Speaker.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi for that follow up question. He is expanding the question to talk about the Lusaka/Ndola Road, the dual carriageway. One is tempted to say we shall drag a bulldozer on that road to clean it up but that bulldozer is no longer effective as a bulldozer so –

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Eng Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Lusaka/Ndola dual carriageway is well under progress in terms of the preliminary work that we are doing. We have stated on the Floor of this House that because it is economically viable, we are going to use the PPP model of financing. The process is well under way. It was advertised and seven potential investors applied. An adjudication process was carried out and narrowed this to two potential concessioners and these are further being evaluated and more information being given. The process of evaluating will come to an end around 17th June. At that stage, a concessioner will have been selected and work then will shortly start on that particular road.

Madam Speaker, we know the state of the Lusaka/Ndola Road, everyone knows that. Part of the requirements of those that succeed is that even as they start the process of constructing a dual carriageway to international bituminous standard, we shall expect them also to make the very bad areas motorable even as they carry out the full rehabilitation of the road to an international standard. So, the hon. Member for Kabushi should not have any worry. This is a working Government, and in spite of the financial constraints, it is reaching out to other models of financing to carry out some critical road rehabilitation works where it is necessary.

Madam, Speaker, I thank you.

Mr J. Chibuye: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr J. Chibuye: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for your kindness.

Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order, and it is directed to the hon. Members on your left, through the Leader of the Opposition.

Madam Speaker, are the hon. Members, through their leader, in order to keep quiet upon their return to this honourable House, on the status of the hon. Member for Chama South, Hon. Mung’andu, who acted so diligently when they were away? Are they in order to keep quiet by failing to tell this august House as to whether Hon. Mung’andu is still the Leader of the Opposition?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you please cite the Standing Order on which your point of order is premised.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You have failed to cite the Standing Order. Therefore, that point of order is not admissible.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Members, we have a lot of work to cover. Just for your information, we have about twenty-three reports which are supposed to be considered during this meeting and more than 300 Questions for Oral Answer, which we are supposed to consider. So, let us please raise important points of order that are in connection with the procedure or any breach on the procedure.

I can see two points of order being indicated. There is one by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi and another one by the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central. I will start with the hon. Member of Petauke Central.

Mr Fube: It is Chilubi.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Chilubi.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, my point of order is anchored on three Standing Orders. The first Standing Order, just a few minutes ago, I was told to go and dress appropriately, and I think by now, I am dressed appropriately to debate. Madam Speaker, I obeyed your directive. I am quoting Standing Order No. 205(a).

Madam Speaker, I have to quote Standing Order No. 202(4). I feel that my privileges in this House have been denied. I am anchouring my argument on Standing Order No. 206(c).

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member!

I think now you are going off the way. The same Standing Orders which you are holding there say that you cannot challenge the decision or the ruling of the presiding officer.

Mr Fube: I did not mean to challenge, I wanted to bring to your attention, ...

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No. I do not think so. It is part of challenging because you are touching on the decision or the ruling that I made. If it was on any other issue, yes, you were going to go ahead, but that one, you are basing it on the dress code.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 202, if you read, it gives me the right to react to what happened.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member! There is a procedure to follow. We cannot continue with you because the same Standing Orders will guide you on how to go about a ruling which is not in your favour. So, can you please just read the Standing Orders and follow. If you have a complaint and you are not happy, please just follow that Standing Order.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you, very kind Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I intend to take you to Standing Order No. 133. Through your discretion, Madam Speaker, as you aware, we are now moving technologically. The news circulating online right now is that of showing engineers trying to renovate the stadium. As you can see, we do not know how safe our footballers are because they will be playing at 1800 hours.

Madam Speaker, with your discretion, is the hon. Minister in order to be seated here when citizens have started entering that 65,000-seater stadium? Engineers have moved in or mobilised, as we can see cranes.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: That point of order is not admissible. It has nothing to do with the procedure or any breach of procedure in the House. However, if you have a concern about the people, you are free to interact with the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts. Please, you can interact with the hon. Minister at tea break and air your view or concern.

Mr C. Chibuya (Roan): Madam Speaker, in the first place, I thank the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development who recently visited this road and he saw for himself the traffic that keeps on piling, especially during peak hours.

Madam Speaker, is the Government planning to rehabilitee this road, starting from Ndola Teaching Hospital up to Bwana Mkubwa? Due to the flow or volume of traffic on this road, is the Government considering expanding it either into a two way lane or four way lane, which is two ways up and two ways down, as it plans for this road?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Roan, Hon. Chibuye, for that question and concern. The stretch he has talked about from the roundabout to Bwana Mkubwa is indeed part of the Lusaka/Ndola dual carriageway. So, when that is constructed, it will become two lanes in one direction and two lanes in the other direction. When the PPP contract is given, we as Government will have authority to direct the contractor or concessionaire to deal with parts that, in our view, constitute the worst parts. The hon. Member is absolutely correct that the entry into Ndola right up to the hospital roundabout is not in a very good condition and that suggestion from the hon. Member for Roan will be taken into account.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, it is good to be here after a long time; thirty days of suspension plus the break. So, I am thankful.

Madam Speaker, according to Standing Order 65, it is clear that as hon. Ministers give statements, they must be factual and verifiable. The hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development has referred to a very important road project; Ndola/Lusaka dual carriageway. In his own submission, the hon. Minister states that it will be undertaken under a public private partnership (PPP) model.

Madam Speaker, according to the PPP Act, it is very clear that if you are going to tender, the project must be with a feasibility study and that feasibility study must not be more than three years old. The United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has declared that it is going to govern under the rule of law.

Of course, Madam Speaker, the people of Zambia have never seen any advert for a feasibility study for the Ndola/Lusaka dual carriageway from the Government, which is a solicited bid. A non-solicited bid or transfer of a PPP project is then passed on to the bidder. Now, the hon. Minister has announced to the nation that we have advanced, when we are wondering who did the feasibility study on which they went out for the solicited bid. The law is very clear that it must be done for not more than three years.

Further, Madam Speaker, the Public Finance Management Act clearly states that any works for money that is disannulled under the Republic of Zambia are subject to the consolidated account, which is Control 99.

Madam Speaker, these two Acts are in contradiction. The latter Act only empowers the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to commit the country to any engagement or debt, whether contractual or finance, while the PPP Act also empowers the contracting authority to sign on behalf of the Government. Bearing in mind these two contradicting Acts in place, and I have not seen any amendment here, how does the hon. Minister then intend to proceed?

I hope Eng. Kapala would agree with me and even the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning because he is the chairperson of the PPP committee. How does the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development come here and tell the Zambian people that the Ndola/Lusaka dual carriageway will be signed under the PPP model, bearing in mind that these two Acts have never been amended? I have not seen any movement for amendment here.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member for that point of order. Before I say something on the point of order, we are still dealing with this question and I had, in fact, seen your name there indicating to ask a question on this same question under consideration. So, that was going to be a good opportunity actually for you to seek clarity from the hon. Minister. However, my ruling on the point of order is that I reserve this ruling so that I get more information about the issue that you have raised.

Mr Chonde (Milenge): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the people of Milenge an opportunity to contribute to the question about Ndola. The stretch that the hon. Member of Parliament is talking about is just about 3 or 5 km and it connects to the Ndeke turnoff. Now, what worries me most is that the combined production of cement of about 60 or 70 per cent comes from this area in either neighbouring Masaiti or Bwana Mkubwa. The cement companies are always using this road. For example, Dangote Cement has 400 trucks –

Mr Lusambo crossed the Floor.

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Chonde: Madam Speaker, there was a distraction from the hon. Member behind me, but I was saying Dangote Cement uses 400 trucks. I do not know whether that is per day, a month or something like that. Zambezi Portland Cement also uses the road in question. All this cement is produced just in this area. These companies are beneficiaries and they are contributors to the damaging of the road.

Therefore, is the Government exploiting corporate social responsibility? What are these companies contributing to this stretch because the explanation the hon. Minister is giving about PPPs and many other models will take long? They will take us into another rainy season and the entry into Ndola is still in a deplorable state. Could the hon. Minister please comment on the corporate social responsibility of these companies that are contributing to the damaging of the road.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I do not know whether I am the right person to talk about corporate social responsibility. Maybe, that is for those who deal with those companies. My remit as the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development is to deal with the roads that are in question. On the Lusaka/Ndola dual carriageway, which we are about to complete in terms of the PPP agreement, we are looking at sometime towards the end of July to start this work.

Madam Speaker, corporate social responsibility to undertake public infrastructure is not as easy as he makes it sound. We are trying to construct a dual carriageway from Lusaka to Ndola to international bituminous standards. As Government, we feel that the route that we have undertaken in terms of financing this particular project is the appropriate route. In terms of timing, everybody associated with this work is doing their utmost to ensure that we reach financial closure and work starts as soon as possible and it will start before the rainy season.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There was a point of order by the hon. Member for Petauke Central.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the point of order is on the hon. Member for Kabushi. Was he in order to cut between the Speaker and the hon. Member on the Floor?

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you cite the Standing Order, hon. Member.

Mr J. E. Banda remained seated.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I think the stretch in question is less than 2 km. Those of us who have lived on the Copperbelt or Ndola in particular, know it is from where the railway line crosses to somewhere around Makoli Flats. It is stretch of less than 2 km. Why should it wait for a public private partnership (PPP) arrangement and whatever the hon. Minister is explaining to construct a stretch of less than 2 km? Why can we not mobilise these cement companies that are damaging that route to work on it in collaboration with the Government? It is a stretch of 2 km and we know that the New Dawn Government promised lower rates when it comes to road construction. It will be cheaply done. So, why can the hon. Minister not do that? I seek that clarification, Madam Speaker.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I think I come to the House to answer substantive questions. A question was raised on the Ndola/Lusaka dual carriage way. Now, the hon. Member for Chama South, Hon. Mung’andu, the former Leader of the Opposition...

Laughter

Eng. Milupi ...or the deposed Leader of the Opposition is raising these issues, and the Government is not blind to these issues. I said earlier on in my answer that when we pick a concessionaire to work on this road, part of the conditions is that he makes the most impassable roads passable. What has happened in the past is that this particular stretch that the hon. Member is talking about, – I do not know when he was last in Ndola – but this has been worked on using the same people offering materials; the same companies that he is talking about. So, I think some of the questions being asked must also be factual. There has been some elements of work. What I am talking about is permanent work which will be achieved by the PPP contract. However, in terms of making it passable, there has been some work done using the same cement companies.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

RECAPITALISATION OF NCZ

316. Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Agriculture:

 

      (a)  whether the Government has any plans to recapitalise the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia in Kafue

           District; and

      (b) if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, yes, Government has plans to recapitalise Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) and the plan is already being implemented. The Government has allocated K684,000,000 towards the recapitalisation of the company out of which K480,000,000 has already been given to NCZ.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the hon. Minister for his assurances to the nation that the Government is committing to recapitalise NCZ. Madam Speaker, we are talking about a company that has potential to export sulphuric acid, ammonium nitrate, explosive grade nitric acid and fertiliser. According to the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC), NCZ has the potential to export into the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Malawi, Tanzania and many other markets within the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC). Could the hon. Minister tell the nation the duration or the time frame within which this investment is going to be rolled out?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the kind words. Like I indicated, the amount of recapitalisation is up to K684,000,000 out of which K480,000,000 has been released already. So, the balance which is close to K200,000,000 will be disbursed as soon as the process of the acquiring certain equipment that NCZ is currently undertaking is done. The money is there just waiting for NCZ to reach the process and the funds will be released.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Twasa (Kasanengwa): Madam Speaker, what time line is the Minister of Agriculture giving us? This is not the first time I have heard an assurance from the hon. Minister of Agriculture. On this Floor of the House, when I complained about fertiliser being delivered, the hon. Minister told us that trucks were being loaded even as he spoke, which never happened. Today, he is telling us about recapitalising NCZ and that funds are available. What assurance is he giving the Zambian people that this project or the recapitalisation will definitely take place and what time line is the minister giving us? I beg for that assurance.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank the speaker for asking with such energy, we need that. I have indicated that out of K684,000,000, K480,000,000 has already been given to the institution. We are waiting for the institution to give us the next step of its requirement to give them the money. What more assurance is needed beyond that? K480,000,000 has been given to the institution. I am happy to report that yes, the trucks were rolling in and we gave the fertilisers.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, is there any time line? I heard something like timeline. Is there any time frame attached to this project? Is it this year or next year?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, let me explain what is happening. I cannot give a time line. It has to come from NCZ because it is the one procuring equipment. Right now, it is at a stage where it is evaluating its documentation. Once the company is through with that, we will give it the money. The money is there. So, for me to give a timeline here, I will be erring as I am not NCZ I just represent it. It needs to give me the timeline. In case there will be another question, I will come with the date.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr A. Banda (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) now is considered to be a bloated organisation. The ammonium nitrate plant is non functional and it has been non functional for some time now. The Compound D plant is only producing about 25 per cent of what it can because it is able to produce 400,000 metric tonnes per year.

Madam Speaker, the labour force is still retained, putting so much pressure on NCZ. Does the Government have any plans to consider maybe a public-private partnership (PPP) model to at least save this sleeping giant?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, absolutely. Yes, the Government is looking at the possibility of a private entity merging with the institution.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, I am just a bid worried with the answer given by my elder brother, the hon. Minister of Agriculture because last year, we had a disaster as far as the fertilizer distribution is concerned.

Madam, the plant we are talking about; the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) is a very viable company. Just a by-product for that company can bring not less than US$10 dollars every month, and that is acid out of it. In short, that is the waste out of the entire process of fertiliser. Now, looking at us, as a country, trying to inject US$40 million when we are paying US$100 million or US$200 million to import fertiliser, – I do not know, but in my language, we say ‘kaya ekulowani nibani’– meaning we do not know who bewitched us as a country.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your question, hon. Member?

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam, when will the hon. Minister and the NCZ be able to tell the nation when the project will start functioning instead of waiting for them? Ten years ago and if I am not mistaken, the same NCZ was given K20 million by the late President Michael Sata. I know that some money was given to that company, but the money went down. Now, we are saying that we are going to top up and give it more money. This company is just chewing money. Is it possible to privatise it or bring in new investors or have a public-private partnership (PPP) sort of arrangement? Is it possible for the Government to come up with an idea to resuscitate this company as opposed to it continuing to drop in money?

Mr Chitotela: On point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Before the hon. Minister comes in, there is a point of order raised by the hon. Member for Pambashe. What is your point of order?

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to raise this point of order.

My point of order is in relation to Standing Order No. 65 and 67 regarding the responses we are receiving. Madam Speaker, my point of order is directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture. I am at sea and lost because the Standing Orders are very clear. Consistency is important when it comes to responses to questions and the information that we are able to verify and correct in this House because we are representatives of the people of Zambia.

In responding to three follow up questions, the hon. Minister has given three different answers. Firstly, he said the Government has already released US$400 plus. Secondly, he said the Government is waiting for the NCZ to give it the papers because it is in the process of doing that. How the, did the Government release the money before it received the papers? Thirdly, the hon. Minister said the Government is considering a public-private partnership (PPP). We are lost, Madam Speaker. What is the Government’s position on NCZ? Therefore, is the hon. Minister in order to give three contradictory statements? I wish the Chair could listen to the verbatim recording of the hon. Minister. He gave three contradictory responses on the same question relating to the same matter. I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My ruling on this issue is that the hon. Minister of Agriculture should be very consistent, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … and also give answers that are satisfactory to hon. Members of Parliament and the public at large because people out there are listening. I am very sure that this topic or question is of high interest especially to the people of Kafue and the nation as a whole. So, can we have answers that will satisfy the general public and as well as the hon. Members of Parliament in this House …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … for the sake of developing our nation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ema Speaker aya!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, the hon. Minister will now answer the question that was raised by the hon. Member for Nyimba.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, allow me to explain as follows: firstly, the question was: is the Government capitalizing NCZ? Without any doubt, I said yes, the Government has set aside K684 million. As we are talking, the NCZ is producing fertiliser, some of which will be used this year. For that, it got K480 million.

Madam Speaker, the NCZ would like to add some equipment to its plant and for this equipment, it needs about K200 million. Therefore, I said we could not give NCZ the money until it gives us the documentation when it is through with what it is doing so that we can give it the balance. I, therefore, strongly and seriously see no contradiction whatsoever, because I was answering the questions as given.

Hon. PF Members: You are challenging the Chair.

Mr Mtolo: I am not challenging the Speaker. I am challenging the questioner.

Madam Speaker, the previous speaker asked the whether the Government was considering recapitalizing NCZ and I said yes. The other speaker questioned why we are bothering dealing with a company that is almost moribund. That is from one questioner. The recent questioner said the NCZ can be used to produce, and we are giving it money to do that. It has promised us that it will produce 50,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser which we can get from it. In fact, the company is saying it can produce a little bit more, but we are being careful and we will only get that quantity from them. Where is the contradiction hon. Member for Kawambwa? Where is the contradiction there?

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order in the House!

Mr Mtolo: I am sorry, not the hon. Member for Kawambwa. I meant the hon. Member for Pambashe.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Phiri: Hon. Member for Pambashe, where is the contradiction?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, are you done?

Mr Phiri: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think the hon. Minister has made himself clear. Even the people who are listening have gotten what he was trying to tell this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, we can move on.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity on behalf of the people of Feira to ask a question on this very important matter.

Madam Speaker, the importance of the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) cannot be underscored because it deals with the area of agriculture and agriculture means food. What will be the effect of the K684 million that has been set aside to recapitalise the company? I am aware that the company is operating below capacity. So, if this money is pumped in, how much will the company be capacitated?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, NCZ, as odd as it is, is currently producing fertilisers. However, it would like to buy a blending plant. Right now, as things stand, NCZ is only able to produce D Compound. Once it acquires that blending plant which it wants to add to its plant, it will be able to supply other types of fertilisers and also do other chemical operations at the plant.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I had no intentions of posing a question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture but I am compelled because the lack of seriousness is too much in here. On 22nd March, the hon. Minister with Her Honour the Vice-President were commissioning United Capital Fertiliser Plant. Immediately after the tour, the hon. Minister of Agriculture expressed optimism that the manufacturing of fertiliser will result in price reduction of the commodity. Mr Phiri said making fertiliser affordable would enable farmers to benefit immensely and further grow the agricultural sector. This was on the Zambia National Broadcasting and Corporation (ZNBC) news.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has had time to take a tour of a private manufacturing plant and he is very optimistic. Here we are, discussing a Government owned institution where the hon. Minister has never been and we are being told, when they come to us.

Interruptions

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I think, maybe, the hon. Minister should be guided to come back with decent answers.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I was waiting to be unmuted. Madam Speaker, it is worrying when the hon. Minister comes on the Floor of the House with quick and vague responses. It is very worrying. I am representing a farming constituency and kindly note my levels of interest in this particular matter. The hon. Minister informs this august House that there is recapitalisation to the tune or amount that he has announced on the Floor. Again, it sounds as if the hon. Minister is talking about a possible contract sum that has been awarded to Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) to produce for the 2022/2023 Farming Season and one is at sea to understand the (inaudible) according to the hon. Minister. Again, the hon. Minister talks about NCZ coming up with a plan, yet we know that NCZ is wholly owned by the Government through the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC). Now, we understand that over the years, NCZ has been given a raw deal, and it is therefore, scandalous to come on the Floor of the House with quick and vague answers when we are talking about a company which has capacity to produce 400, 000 metric tonnes of fertiliser and we can only restrict it to supplying 10,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, …

Mr Chanda: Coming to my question, Madam Speaker, …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: …what is your question?

Mr Chanda: Madam, I was trying to lay a basis for my question, which has to do with the continued importation of fertiliser by middlemen who also continue to dislocate and disadvantage NCZ and maybe, there is a plot to kill the local fertiliser manufacturing companies like NCZ. How much fertiliser is the Government planning to contract to NCZ under the 2022/2023 Farming Season from a meagre 23,000 metric tonnes from the 2021/2022 Farming Season?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Agriculture, if you so wish to comment on comments by the previous speaker, you can go ahead, in answering together with this one.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, since the hon. Member for Lumezi has left the House, there is no need for me to comment. I wish he was in the House.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hmmm!

Ms Mulenga: The question is of interest to the whole nation!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

Mr Mtolo: Okay, fine, Madam Speaker, because there are other people of interest.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, it is absolutely wrong for an hon. Member of Parliament to come in here and allege that I have not been to NCZ. He is speaking without facts. I do not think that is permissible in this respectable House.

Mr Mwiimbu: Correct!

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, secondly, I made it very clear here, and indeed, we did go to commission a private institution which will be producing fertiliser. It is the responsibility of the Government to smoothen the environment in this country for private investment. It will not be the first one neither will it be the last Government to do so. Whenever any company is going to come, dealing with agriculture, I will be there to encourage private investment. That is why I was employed.

Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I still maintain that that company which we went to commission will produce cheaper fertiliser than whatever fertiliser will have to come in because it is going to be produced here in our country. You will take out the transport costs.  How can you compete with a company like that? It is our collective responsibility to encourage private sector development in this country.

Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Other than one party which is not represented here, we are all capitalist oriented parties in here and no one should pretend today that what we are doing is wrong.

Madam Speaker, talking about the fertiliser which we found being purchased, it is actually the hon. Colleagues on your left who gave the contracts and gave 10,000 to NCZ.

Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!

Mr Emmanuel M. Musonda: Alpha Commodities!

Mr Mtolo: When we took over, Madam Speaker, we gave NCZ a large quantity of fertilisers to produce. For the sake of the hon. Member for Kanchibiya, I would like him to know that we are giving NCZ 50,000 metric tonnes to supply.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: That has not happened in a long time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, on that very happy and serious note, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, I am glad that the hon. Minister of Agriculture visited NCZ in the recent past.

Hon. Opposition Members: When?

Mr Kasandwe: That is what he said. So, I am happy that he did take that visit.

Madam Speaker, in the recent past, this House was informed through a parastatal committee, about two years ago, on the status of NCZ and the recommendation was that NCZ needed to be completely overhauled and the reason was simple, the equipment there is obsolete. The stock feed that is used to make fertiliser now is not compatible with the equipment at NCZ. My question to the hon. Minister is: since the Government has already injected K480 million, is this money for production of fertiliser or for buying new equipment?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I will repeat myself. Out of the K684 million, NCZ has kept about K204 million which it would like to use for a blending plant. The money we gave the company, it is buying aggregates, inputs to produce fertiliser. The Government has not yet procured fertiliser from NCZ. When it produces the fertiliser, we will buy the fertiliser. The money to buy that fertiliser is available.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mundubile: Yakoneka!

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I am finding it very difficult to understand the explanation of our able, angel, Hon. Mtolo, the hon. Minister for Agriculture.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: Angel!!

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, it is a known fact that NCZ, the one in Kafue, unless you are talking about another one, ...

Laughter

Rev. Katuta: ... is nothing to write home about. Now, the hon. Minister of Agriculture has said K480 million has been given to the company to enable it procure equipment to enable it to do some renovations or something like that.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Rev. Katuta: I think that is what he said. I stand to be corrected.

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: Okay, material to do that. So, how does it produce or manufacture this fertiliser when the equipment, plant and machinery is obsolete? How are we going to balance this? Money is given but there are no tools or equipment to produce the 50,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser that the hon. Minister is talking about.

Madam Speaker, I ask the hon. Minister to kindly tell the nation that there is nothing happening at NCZ and that we are just going to liquidate it or bring down the plant and Zambians will be at peace. I say this because we will be hopeful for the 50,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser which we will not see this year again.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member who has asked a very important question. I also thank him for his kind words.

Madam Speaker, NCZ is able to produce fertilisers. However, it does not produce to the expected plant capacity that was installed, which was 400,000 metric tonnes. In fact, it has never produced 400,000 metric tonnes. I have been in this industry for a long time. The best it ever did was producing about 150,000 metric tonnes. Now, because of the level of depreciation of the equipment, this time NCZ has indicated to me that it can produce close to 85,000 metric tonnes.

Madam Speaker, out of that, we as the Government have said to the company: “if you can produce 50,000, we will buy it from you.” I have also said to them that if they can do better, we will buy the extra. So, we are expecting to buy from that company, which, indeed, has been rundown, 50,000 metric tonnes. I assure the hon. Member that it is able to produce. If he goes to NCZ now, he will find production at NCZ.

Mr Kapyanga: Let us go together.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, so I am assuring the nation through this House that NCZ will be allowed to produce whatever it can and we will buy from them 50,000 metric tonnes, minimum.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take the last three questions from the hon. Members for Kabushi, Nakonde and Nkana.

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, I have been following the responses which the hon. Minister of Agriculture has been giving to the hon. Members of this House.

Madam Speaker, when I was in Government as Provincial Minister for Lusaka, I toured the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ). As the Government, we supported the management at NCZ to produce fertiliser, and it produced 10,000 metric tonnes. NCZ Management petitioned the Executive through me to be given chance to produce up to 50,000 metric tonnes. We received that petition and it was given to the hon. Minister of Agriculture then, Hon. Katambo. As the Government then, we assured NCZ that we were going to give it the money to produce the 50,000 metric tonnes.

Madam Speaker, as the Government, we knew by then that NCZ equipment is obsolete. This is because when NCZ was constructed under the leadership of Dr Kenneth Kaunda, it was producing other products such as bullets, bombs, which President Kaunda thought should be produced by NCZ. Under the leadership of President Edgar Chagwa Lungu, through the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC), the Government came up with a plan of constructing a new fertiliser company adjacent to NCZ. My question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture is: is the Government still considering constructing a new fertiliser plant which has been on paper through the IDC in Kafue?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, that is news to me and I will need to investigate it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, since we are recapitalising the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) and one of the promises that the Government made when in the Opposition was recapitalising, is that promise coming to reality? When the hon. Members on your right were in the Opposition, they promised the Zambian people that they were going to reduce the price of fertiliser to K250. Now, since we have injected a lot of money in this NCZ, is that promise coming to a reality?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, number one, they are disturbing me quite a lot, especially this one pointing at Hon. Kapyanga.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, can you please stop disturbing the hon. Minister so that he gives us a response. Hon. Minister you can go ahead.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, one thing I would like to indicate to my brother is that economic circumstances do change.

Madam Speaker, right now, it is very difficult to find fertilisers, to produce fertilizers in Zambia which you can quote at the price as given. However, as New Dawn Government, we are doing everything possible to draw the fertiliser prices down. We have got three measures which we are looking at that will bring down the prices of fertiliser relatively.

Firstly, the same fertiliser from NCZ will be at a lower price than the one on the international market. Secondly, the private company we are promoting, in which the Government has shares, will produce fertiliser at definitely lower prices than the international prices. Thirdly, there is going to be a Government to Government arrangement on a substantial quantity of fertilizer that will bring down the price of fertiliser.

Madam Speaker, we are certain that the fertilizer that we will release – and by the way, Madam Speaker, the fertilizers that we give to beneficiaries on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) is not paid for by the farmers, it is subsidised almost at 80 per cent of the cost. So, even if we talk of fertiliser from NCZ, the company that will be producing, which we will bring together, the prices will be so good that we will give the farmers sufficient fertilisers and will have food security because people will produce.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.  

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, do you have a follow up question?

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, ...

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, you can continue, you have already started.

Mr Chanda: Madam, I just want to place on record that the hon. Minister of Agriculture ought to realise that assurances being given on the Floor of the House are causing high and huge expectations on the ground for those of us from farming constituencies. It will be sad if the hon. Minister will come back to this House flip-flopping on the statement that he has made today. Suffice to say that the assurances that we have gotten today are neither here nor there. It is very difficult to take anything and communicate it to the people and say, this is what the Minister is saying about the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) and the reduction in the price of fertiliser, recapitalisation, etcetera, it is very difficult.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, when the House was on break, I did interact with farmers who have fears over the continued escalation of prices of fertiliser. It looks like the issue of the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ), if the vision is actualised, can only go as far as addressing the price of Compound D fertiliser, what would the hon. Minister tell the House about what the expectation with regards to the price of Urea in the next farming season is?

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister also aware of the scramble across the border in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) for the fertilizer that is in Zambia and how it will ultimately affect the price of fertiliser for the next farming season? So, on behalf of the farmers, I want to find out what we are looking at in terms of the actual price of fertiliser for this particular farming season.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mung’andu: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We really appreciate the way you are handling this House. I wish I could promote you to become the substantive Speaker.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, please just go straight to your question.

Laughter

Mr Kalimi: Former Hon. Leader of the Opposition!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I am standing on the same Standing Order No. 65. The information being given by our hon. Ministers should be factual and verifiable. We are handling national matters; matters which affect our people, the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, let me mention that I painfully raise this point of order because Hon. Mtolo Phiri is my own brother, but I have no option.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that the Government will reduce the price of fertiliser because it will procure it on a Government-to-Government basis. The same was mentioned on oil. I have done a research. Very few Governments, if any, produce fertiliser in the world. Production of fertiliser is done mostly by private companies.

Is he in a position to give us a name of a Government which is producing fertiliser that this New Dawn Government will buy or procure this fertiliser from at a lower price? I know that fertiliser is produced by private companies. So, for the benefit of our people, is the hon. Minister in order to speculate that the Government will procure fertiliser from a Government when there is no Government that produces fertiliser? I seek your serious ruling.

Is the hon. Minister in a position to tell us which Government will supply fertiliser to our New Dawn Government so that the price comes to K250? That is what we are expecting. I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, how I wish you had asked the hon. Minister directly. It is just a simple question. You could have just said: “Hon. Minister, can you please name any Government” instead of rising on a point of order. So, with that guide, hon. Member, I shall not render any ruling because the hon. Minister has told us he is the head or the hon. Minister of that ministry. We are all relying on him to provide us with the information that he has provided to us. So, without wasting time, the hon. Minister of Agriculture shall answer the question that was raised by the hon. Member for Nkana and also maybe, give examples, if you can, hon. Minister.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I will answer, very willingly so. The Government of Zambia, as the hon. Members in here are aware, supports a minimum of 1 million farmers under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). The fertiliser that we are talking about is fertiliser which is heavily subsidised and is given to farmers at almost free cost. Given the current prices of fertiliser, farmers only contribute K400, but they are given say, six bags of fertiliser. If you assume that one bag of fertiliser is K800 or K900, we are talking of K5,000 to K6,000, yet the farmer only contributes K400. In short, we are giving the fertiliser to the farmers literally free of charge…

Mr Mundubile: Those not on FISP?

Mr Mtolo: …and we are absolutely delighted to continue doing this. For the information of Members here, 96 per cent of the maize that is produced and crushed into mealie meal is from the small-scale farmers and not the big-scale farmers. So, our interest is to ensure that the small-scale farmers are given this fertiliser so that we can have sustained food security in this country.

Madam Speaker, we are going to give this almost free fertiliser to the 1 million-plus farmers in order for the country to continue having social peace.

Hon. Opposition Member: There is nothing new!

Mr Mtolo: No, it is not new, it has been happening, but we will continue, given the difficult situation we find ourselves in. You are all aware seated in here that the prices of fertiliser, oil and other commodities have gone up because of the war which we have nothing to do with ourselves.

Madam Speaker, as it were, if I am told to be serious in giving answers, I would also plead that before we confuse the Zambians, we should also ask questions which will give value to the citizens of this country.

Madam Speaker, we are going to give fertiliser to the farmers and at whatever price we will give them, they will not suffer the cost which we will have.

Madam Speaker, the Government has little to do with the urea and other things, which are on commercial basis, but we will make sure that it is produced locally and therefore, become cheap.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr B. Mpundu: How much?

Interruptions

CONSTRUCTION OF A POLICE STATION IN LAMBWA CHOMBA WARD

317. Rev Katuta asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

     (a)    whether the Government has any plans to construct a police station in Lambwe Chomba Ward in

            Chienge Parliamentary Constituency; 

     (b)    if so, when the plans will be implemented;

     (c)   what the estimated cost of the project is; and

     (d)   what the estimated time frame for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, allow me first and foremost, this opportunity to welcome the Leader of the Opposition and his hon. Colleagues for having served the sentence diligently and with honour. Welcome back.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct a Grade C police station in Lambwe Chomba Ward in Chienge District.

Madam, the project will be implemented when ongoing infrastructure projects which are 80 per cent and above are completed and when funds are made available.

Madam Speaker, the total cost to construct a Grade C police station is currently estimated at K5 million.

Madam, the timeframe will be determined when a contractor is awarded the contract.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, as much as I appreciate the hon. Minister’s answer that the project will be implemented when funds are available, this is a border area with the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Lambwe Chomba is about 70 km away from the central business district (CDB) of Chienge, that is the civic centre. So, it is a situation where whenever crime takes place or there is anything that needs the urgency of the police to attend to or anything that has to do with the police in that area, the people of Lambwe Chomba have nowhere to go to. Sometimes they end up going to Kaputa and, of course, that is not the area where the police should come from to attend to the emergency.

Madam, people have to travel that distance of 70 km to go to Kaputa. This is the reason I would want to ask this Government, if it can, to use the money in the account we call the Sinking Fund to help the people of Chienge. It is really an emergency for the people of Lambwe Chomba to have a police station because there are no police officers there. When I say there are no police, there is no one who can say that they are police and this is an area which has about 60,000 people.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I hear the issues being raised by my dear hon. Colleague pertaining to the security situation in Lambwe Chomba Ward. I want to confirm that the Government is seriously looking into the issue of funding the construction of this particular project. I am aware that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is reviewing this particular policy pertaining to uncompleted projects as a condition to start new projects. Once he reviews and money is available, as he does the budgeting, we will be able to provide for the people of Chienge. We have made a commitment that we are going to do this particular project because of the situation obtaining.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. Minister can find an alternative way to save the people of Chembe. He has got units within the police like general duties, mobile units, paramilitary, etcetera. I do not know whether the hon. Minister can send a unit there just to be closer to our people and look after them in terms of security, like the mobile unit, just a detachment as he awaits those processes of constructing a police post and other administrative aspects.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the suggestion the hon. Member has made pertaining to the provision of security in Lambwe Chomba Ward. I also want to mention here to the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge that we are also making arrangements to ensure that Chienge has a new motor vehicle to service some of these outposts in that particular area. We are concerned about the security situation. Be assured that very soon, Chienge will have a brand new vehicle.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is saying that very soon the people of Chienge will have a brand new vehicle. In the interim, why does he not pick one of the vehicles that he uses to transport politicians to different locations to be donated to Chienge?

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we do not transport politicians to various police stations. When there is a callout for any politician or anybody in this country, whether there is transport or not, they are required to report. That is the law. If they do not report they commit an offence. We have no obligation to transport anybody and I am not aware of anyone being transported.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT IN FEIRA CONSTITUENCY

318. Mr E. Tembo (Feira)asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

       (a)     when construction of the following infrastructure in Feira Parliamentary Constituency will commence:

               (i)    a new police station;

              (ii)    houses for police officers;

              (iii)    an immigration office block;and

              (iv)     houses for immigration officers;

       (b)    what the cause of the delay in commencing the projects is;

       (c)    what the cost of each project is; and

       (d)    what the timeframe for the completion of each project is.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government has plans to construct infrastructure projects for the Zambia Police Service and the Department of Immigration in Feira Constituency. Commencement of the project will be as follows:

      (a)    construction of a new police station in Feira Parliamentary Constituency will commence when

              resources are made available for the project;

      (b)    construction of housing units for police officers in Feira Parliamentary Constituency will commence

             when resources are made available for the project;

      (c)    construction of an immigration office block in Feira Parliamentary Constituency will commence when

             funds are made available for the project; and

      (d)   construction of houses for immigration officers in Feira Parliamentary Constituency will commence when

             resources are made available for the project.

Madam Speaker, the projects in Feira Parliamentary Constituency have not commenced due to lack of resources.

Madam, the cost of constructing a police station and ninety-six housing units for police services is estimated at K20 million and K99 million respectively while the cost of an immigration office block houses for immigration officers will be ascertained when the bills of quantity (BoQs) for each project are prepared.

Madam Speaker, the timeframe for the completion of the police station, houses for the police officers and houses for immigration offices is twenty four months while the timeframe for the immigration office block is eighteen months.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I wish to find out categorically, when the funds will be made available since it seems this is just a general answer to every developmental question that is raised on the Floor of this Parliament. In which fiscal year will the moneys for these projects be made available?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the jurisdiction of coming up with a budget and providing for all the projects in this country lies with this House. The Budget for this country for 2022/2023 will be considered by the House sometime in September. At that time, hon. Members of this august House will be at liberty to provide and make variations in accordance with the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, I just want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security a serious security threat in Feira Parliamentary Constituency, without going into details, because he is aware as much as I am that right now. I think this must be taken seriously and with caution.

Madam Speaker, I am as worried as my brother Hon. Shakafuswa. These answers of when the money will be available are not satisfactory in this House. This is an august House where we need tangible answers which are specific.

Madam Speaker, much as we appreciate the fact that this House approves projects, the hon. Minister knows more than I do and that when it comes to these Budgets, there is a process which starts from the ministry and as the ministry responsible for internal security, what is your projection as to when these will be done?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I am not in a position to make any projection because as a ministry, we are a spending ministry. We can only spend what is made available to us through this House. If it is made available, we shall provide. We have made a commitment. There is an intention on our part to ensure that we provide for the people of Feira Parliamentary Constituency. We know the difficulties that the people of Feira face. In Kavalamanja, we have had a lot of problems there, and as a result of these problems that are found in that particular area, we have put in place measures to ensure that we provide for security in that area. We have taken note of the concerns being raised.

Madam Speaker, I thank you

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I must confess that when the hon. Minister was on your left side of the House, I admired his political career.

Madam Speaker, permit me to mention that the time I will be on your right side, I will also dress like the hon. Minister.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your question Hon. Member?

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, we know that Feira Parliamentary Constituency is the house for the now infamous Zambezi Resources Limited. We have allowed mining to take place in that particular constituency. Therefore, has the Government thought of engaging Zambezi Resources Limited to help it build certain logistical support that the Government may need, as a ministry? This is because even here at Parliament, we are told there is no money. It has become a song that there is no money in this New Dawn Government. We do not know if at all, we will reach a stage when money will be available. So, has the Government ever thought of engaging Zambezi Resources Limited?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I do not want to be drawn in the decision pertaining to Zambezi Resources Limited. You know very well that that is a contentious matter, a subject of debate in the country. So, I would not want to be drawn into that matter.

Madam Speaker, however, I want to mention that money is available for projects that have already been budgeted for. My hon. Colleague is saying even here there is no money. For the first time under the New Dawn Administration, your Committees are working and functioning properly, unlike in the past.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for those not really convincing responses.

Madam Speaker, the people of Zambia voted for the New Dawn Government purely because of the promise that it would fix everything, with economic issues being among those.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in a position to tell the Zambian people, in a methodical, very predictable and very important way whether the Government has a programme of embarking on such projects. This is because this situation is not only obtaining in Feira. I will be inviting the hon. Minister to Chama Parliamentary Constituency where there is no police post. The hon. Minister’s kitchen or garage is bigger than the place where your officers stay. They have no houses. No wonder the people of Zambia voted for you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is the question, hon. Member?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in a position to give us a work plan of how the Government is going to attend to these police stations? This is because it is not only in Feira Parliamentary Constituency. So, the people of Feira should have a promissory note that probably before 2026, they will have a police station and what the hon. Member is asking. Is he in a position to give us that work plan?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has raised a very interesting question which is very generic in nature and I am going to answer accordingly. This Government has a plan to ensure that the people of Zambia benefit from the resources that where generated by the people of Zambia. First of all, we shall start by ensuring that the money that was used to construct a university; the FJT Chiluba University in Mansa and grew legs is found at. Secondly, we shall ensure that the money that was used to purportedly construct a university in Ntumpa in Kasama is found, so that the people of Kasama can see a university there. Once they start seeing those projects, the people of Zambia will be happy and that is a priority for us.

Madam Speaker, we are also saying that when we plan for projects, the money will always be available. We do not want to be giving promissory notes to people when in actual fact we have no intention of honouring them, like what happened in the Eastern Province where people were being assured that it was heaven on earth, yet there were no roads that were worked on. There were no police stations that were constructed. People were being misled and they were dancing for things which never happened. We are not going to do that.

Madam, for the people of Feira, we shall construct infrastructure when the money is available, just as we ensure a university in Ntumpa is built. We shall also ensure that the FTJ Chiluba University is built. We are going to do that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chisenga (Mambilima): Thank you so much, Madam Speaker, and –

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Leader of the Opposition, what is the point of order?

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, I also wish to take this opportunity to welcome the hon. Members back to the House and hope that in this meeting of considering Committee reports, we will be able to clarify the many falsehoods that we have been reading about, including what I am just hearing now.

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security has been very gracious to outline a number of projects that may not have happened, but I think he was very economical. I think what he was trying to speak to is the prudent utilisation of resources, but he forgot or deliberately and willfully avoided to talk about the procurement of fertilisers which was done in the recent past …

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile: … which were originally at US$1,000 per metric tonne, but was now procured at US$1,400 per metric tonne. So, when we come to this House to give information on the prudent utilisation of resources, we must be thorough.

Hon. Minister, what is disturbing to the Zambian people now is that within three months of being in power, you procured fertilisers from colleagues through single-sourcing, resulting in super profits of over US$15 million. If this was not the case, that money would have been employed to even build that infrastructure in Feira and many other areas like Chienge.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I have seen that we have now gone to other topics. There is inclusion of fertilisers, which was not in this question at all, and it is in fact very difficult for me to come up with a ruling. We are concentrating on this question which is talking about a police post in Feira. I do not know how now we are going to start answering questions on fertilisers.

So, my guide is that hon. Members, can we be focused on the issue at hand. In such a way, we will not even be able to waste a lot of time. Hon. Leader of the Opposition, if you have got a separate issue like you tried to combine this issue with the police post, please raise it separately so that it can be looked into.

The hon. Member for Mambilima was on the Floor and she can go ahead with her question.

Ms Chisenga: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his renowned and most common response –

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member on the Floor can continue until I tell her to stop.

Ms Chisenga: Madam Speaker, allow me to put it on record that if the hon. Minister does not know the answers to give to the citizens of Zambia and the people in this House, I am wondering who else is going to have responses as he heads the department of security in the nation of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, to me, it comes as a concern and worry as regards our security. May the hon. Minister put the county at large and the people in this House into light and direction as to whether the infrastructure problems will not cause security harm to our country.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, a point of correction would be that it is not fair to say the hon. Minister does not know the answer because he has given us responses. If you are not happy with the responses, maybe, that is when you can interrogate further. The hon. Minister not knowing would not be a fair statement because an answer has been given, but you are not satisfied with the answer.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I sympathise with my sister on the question she has posed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Your daughter!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I am happy to know that I have been given a daughter. She is my daughter.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, as you have rightly guided, I have responded and I have given a direction to this House. I did mention that the onus of budgeting for any project in this country lies with this House. Whether you are a ministry or department, you cannot do anything unless this House approves.

Madam, for the education of those who may not know, when we come to the House as we will be debating the Budget, whatever the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning provides on the Floor of this House is not cast in stone. It is up to you, if you believe that certain votes should not be in the Yellow Book, to make what we call variations to the Budget and provide for the projects you want. However, since we are almost not knowledgeable, we rubberstamp what we bring in. That is the unfortunate situation on the Floor of this House. So, it is not the ignorance on my part, but the ignorance of those who pose questions not knowing what they should be doing as hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, I think it is a bit too strong when you say ‘ignorance’. Can you can please dilute that.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, I will withdraw and replace it with ‘not knowing’, which is lighter. So, it is due to not knowing what you are supposed to do.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Mung’andu, I will give you an opportunity to raise a point of order or ask a question, since we are still dealing with the same question.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I would prefer a point of order because I was rising on a point of order.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can go ahead.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, this point of order is pursuant to our Standing Order 65. Factual and verifiable information should be provided on the Floor of this House.

Mr Syakalima: Standing Order number?

Mr Mung’andu: Is the hon. Minister in order to insinuate, Madam Speaker, that in Chama South or Chama in particular, we were jubilating when we were in the Patriotic Front (PF) when there were no police posts constructed or roads provided?

Madam Speaker, if I send the hon. Minister now to the Hansard, he will find not one but more than ten or fifteen questions on the Order Paper, where we were asking questions to some of our hon. Colleagues, who have now joined us on the left. Here they are with me, and they are welcome. We used to ask them questions because the people of Chama need a police post. I went further to give an example that in Shiwang’andu, there are two police stations, when in Chama, which is the oldest district, there is no police station.

The hon. Minister went further to state that the Government wants to recover money which has grown legs. Is he also in order to insinuate that money can grow legs? Something that I have never witnessed, Madam Speaker, is money walking. Madam Speaker, the people of Zambia want to get facts. Will he be in a position, as the hon. Minister, to come and show us how that money sprinted from FTJ University to wherever it went? The people of Zambia are interested in knowing and they want to know who got that money. He is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, what is he doing to quickly arrest and surround those involved? Let me promise the hon. Minister that on the fertiliser deal, if you are playing with how to ...

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order Hon. Member –

Mr Mung’andu: ... fight corruption, we will come and arrest you.

Madam Speaker, is he in order? We want a country that has correct information. If people did wrong things, arrest them. If you do wrong things, I can assure you, there will be no mercy, not the way you are playing. Is he in order, Madam Speaker?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: According to the Standing Orders, a point of order is supposed be very specific. However, it is like you debated that point of order such that there are so many issues in one point of order. I did not hear the hon. Minister mention the people of Chama North as the people who were, is it celebrating that there were many health posts? I think the hon. Minister just said it in general.

Hon. Member, I think to help us or to help me as presiding officer, try to be specific when you are raising a point of order. It is very difficult for me to even comment on the fertiliser, the FTJ University or whatever funds, and now the people of Chama. It is very difficult. So, in that case, the point of order is not admissible.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, the first security that is provided for the people of Zambia or citizens of Zambia is provided by the police. The Zambia Army or the Office of the President (OP) comes after. This is a very important ministry that we should not even joke about or to joke with. From the look of things, it is like this is affecting the entire country. If we take it lightly, then we are not doing justice to the citizens of this country. My question is: can the Government or the Executive not look for emergency funds like the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) does when there is a disaster? Funds are made available.

Madam, can this ministry through the Executive, not treat this issue as an emergency, because it is not only about Chienge, but it is also that our people in Zambia do not have the much required security at the moment. It is not the Zambia Army. The Zambia Army and Zambia National Service (ZNS) have got flashy vehicles we see them driving around in.

Madam Speaker, what about this ministry? Allow to me to urge the hon. Minister that he should make an appeal to the Executive to say this is more important than the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) who are getting big salaries because this concerns the most vulnerable person in this country. May the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security together with the hon. Minister seated next to him come up with an emergency fund to start constructing police stations throughout the country. We cannot wait. An emergency fund should be created.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, if you heard me correct in the answer I gave on the Floor of this House and the question that was raised by the hon. Member, you would recall that the hon. Member is talking about a new police station. He is not saying there is no police station in Feira. There is a police station but he is asking for a new and modern police station to be constructed in Feira. In addition, because we are concerned with the security situation in almost every constituency, for the information of this House, having consulted my hon. Colleague, the Minister of Finance and National Planning who is seated next to me, we are buying every police station and constituencies in this country police vehicles because we know that security is paramount for us to manage this country and provide security. That is why we are concerned that we have to provide security for our people, hence the decision to buy vehicles for all the constituencies in this country. Yes, we know that security is paramount. We are not just seated without considering the plight of our people in terms of security. We have done something which has not been done before and that is what we are doing, with the grace of my hon. Colleague who is seated next to me here.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, I think my question has been dealt with. So, I wish not to continue.

I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: In that case, we will call upon the hon. Member for Bangweulu.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, the issue of the FTJ University, we will deal with it when we come to discuss the Report on Government Assurances. Coming to the question of housing for the police officers, you may be aware that 12,000 housing units were earmarked for construction throughout the country, and by 2021, 2,350 were constructed under phase I. When is the Government resuming phase II which the Eastern Province is part of, where Feira falls?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has raised a very important question which relates to the construction of police houses and other infrastructure in the country. Let it be known that our hon. Colleagues who were in Government at the time over borrowed to the extent that even themselves when they were in Government failed to honour their obligations in financing the loan. As a result of that failure on the part of those who were in Government at the time, the financing arrangements were suspended. Now, we have to start renegotiating the terms of the agreements hence the decision of Government to halt many projects in order to ascertain the viability and the way we can finance these projects. As it is now, the hon. Colleagues on your left had left the coffers empty and as a result, they came up with a policy of suspending all the projects until all those that were running were completed, hence, the decision.

Madam, we have adopted their own decisions where they said let us not proceed because they realised that they did not evaluate the sustainability of the projects they had entered into. They sunk us. We are trying to get ourselves out of the hole which they dug for all of us.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We will have the last question from the hon. Member for Chipili.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security a question.

Madam, I do not know how I can describe the way the hon. Minister is answering. He talked about approving of the Budget and that it is this House which approves it when in fact, he knows that when the Budget is presented before this august House, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning gets information from all ministries on what they want to do. So, it is up to him with his people, those he supervises to state that in this year’s Budget for instance, we are going to build ten police posts or twenty district hospitals. It is up to him and not us because when the Budget comes here, we just look at it and then debate and approve. Probably, he could adjust one or two things. So, the issue of saying he is being used as a rubberstamp as he had put it, is wrong. If I were him, I was going to say …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member!

What is your question?

Mr Chala: Madam Speaker, I was trying to build my question. Since he is saying there is no money, it was going to be better for him to say that he was going to do this or that in the next Budget, but not to be accepting that they are going to do this and that. When are you going to do it within in the five years? Give us the precise year so that people are assured that you are going to do what you are talking about because you are accepting everything and saying you going to do it and that you have taken note.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I do not know if the hon. Minister has a better answer.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, it is difficult for me to answer the question he has posed, if any. He wants me to commit the Government by saying that we are going to do these particular projects on a certain date and I said no, we cannot do that. We will only be able to come to this House and give an assurance to the nation that we will do this particular project next year or the other year when funds are available. We do not want to make commitments to the Treasury when the money is not available. As a result, we have a number of projects that have not been fulfilled in various constituencies because of the commitments that were made by the previous Government. We are not going to do that. We will only do things which we are able to do and actualise like I had indicated earlier when I said we are going to buy police vehicles for all constituencies because we are able and the process has begun.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

PROCUREMENT OF MEDICAL EQUIPMENT AT UTH

319. Mr Hamwaata (Pemba) asked the Minister of Health:

       (a)   whether the Government has any plans to procure the following medical equipment for the theatres at

              the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) in Lusaka:

              (i)         anesthetic machines; and

              (ii)        autoclaving machines;

       (b)    if so, when the plans will be implemented; 

       (c)    if there are no such plans, why; and

       (d)    what measures the Government is taking to ensure that there are adequate consumables at the

               hospitals.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to procure …

Interruptions

The Vice-President: You want me to read the question? You all have Order Paper. I will still read the question.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, Government has plans to procure anesthetic machines and autoclaving machines for the University Teaching Hospital UTH) in Lusaka and also for other health facilities countrywide in order to improve health service delivery.

Madam Speaker, the procurement of the medical equipment will be implemented in a phased approach starting this year, 2022, for the procurement of emerging and maternal health equipment and the procurement will continue for other types of medical equipment in 2023 and beyond.

Madam, as stated earlier, the Government has plans to procure medical equipment for the health facilities in Zambia and therefore, part (c) of the question falls off.

Madam Speaker, the Government has included the procurement of consumables for UTH and other health facilities countrywide in the 2022 Procurement Plan.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you very kind Madam Speaker. Permit me to mention from the onset that I rise on a point of procedure.

Madam, the procedure has been that ordinarily, the hon. Minister should have notified us or a fellow Cabinet hon. Minister to issue the response instead of it being done by the Leader of Government Business. I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, there was communication that passed through the Office the Clerk. It is only that it was delayed to come to my table. Otherwise, there was communication.

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity. Indeed, it is good to be here after a short while although we are being ridiculed by a certain old man.

Laughter

Madam Fist Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, let us go straight to the question, please.

Mr Chibombwe: This old man has been here for a long time.

Hon. FP Members: Very old!

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, my follow up question to Question 319 …

Hon. Government Members: Mask!

Mr Chibombwe: I will be failing to speak if I put on a mask.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Kindly put on your mask hon. Member. Even the distance between yourselves is not one metre apart.

Mr Chibombwe wore his mask.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, the anaesthetic and autoclaving machines are specialised machines that are used in our hospitals. I want to find out where the Government plans to buy these machines. I ask this question because recently, we witnessed, as a county, an incident where there was a plane was chartered to fly to Ivory Coast. This plane was sourced from a friend at an overpriced fare. Instead of US$75,000, we paid someone US$270,000. So, I want to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President whether we are going to source these machines from the manufacturers or local suppliers. I ask this because these machines require after-sale services or put simply, a warranty. Are we going to source these machines from manufacturers or local, ...

Hon. Member: Manufacturer!

Mr Chibombwe: ... suppliers? There are no local manufacturers. No one can manufacture these in Zambia.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I may not be very comprehensive in the manner that I respond to this question because truly, when it comes to procurement, I think there are processes that are followed under the Public Procurement Act. I believe that they look at the authenticity of the equipment that you buy. On the issue of whether that procurement will be local or foreign, I can say that we are looking at both. You know, I am a Minister and so, I am not even aware myself which company in the country is able to make the equipment we are talking about; the theatre equipment such as the anaesthetics machine and that one you use for echocardiogram (ECHO) and things like that. So, we will procure where it is. You have seen that the ministry, particularly through the hon. Minister, has been going round the country to see where such things can be procured. I cannot tell you exactly where it will be procured, but the processes will be followed and we will get the very best that we can.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, clearly, what we are concerned about as a nation is lack of specialised treatment, especially at our biggest hospital; the University Teaching Hospitals (UTH). If like developed countries, we automated the number of sick people or how many are dying, we were going to have statistics lives lost because of the absence of those machines. Does the Government have plans or is it in a position to come and inform this august House about the specialised equipment in all public big hospitals, especially provincial headquarters hospitals? I like asking this question. What plans does the Government have to ensure that hospitals, not only UTH, are equipped with this equipment? We have people who travel from Chama to come and have access to these facilities. So, instead of them coming to Lusaka or going to Chipata, which journey takes a full day to travel and instead of going to Chinsali which takes two hours, is the Government going to make these machines available in the provincial centres so that people should not be coming to Lusaka for treatment? I am sure that is what the people voted for.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think her Honour the Vice-President is going to repeat herself because in her answer she specifically said the Government is going to buy for UTH and other health facilities. Your Honour the Vice-President, I do not know if you have got another answer?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I believe the Chair listens a little more carefully than us hon. Members because that is exactly what the answer stated, that we are going to buy for other health facilities countrywide. If you want to check, you will see that the procurement will go on. It is not a one off activity. Some of the equipment will, indeed, run down with time. So, where they are not, the answer states that the procurement starts this year, 2022 and it goes on.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Her Honour the Vice-President for the answers she is giving on behalf of the Ministry of Health. When you go to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH and see some of the equipment there, you will wonder how much was spent on it.

Madam Speaker, the challenge that we have as a nation is that we have irresponsible users of these machines. So, what I want to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President is if the Government is going to provide proper training because there is new technology now. If the Government buys equipment for the entire country, is it going provide training on the use of the same equipment? I ask this because when you go to the hospital, you will find that some, including doctors, do not know how to use the electrocardiogram (ECG) machine. So, we want to know if the Government is also going to provide training because such equipment is not just procured without training people on how to use it. You have to procure together with the training.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, thank you for the question asked by the hon. Member who is concerned about, I think, the misuse or careless use of the machines. I think that is a concern that should be for all of us because that is very dangerous if that is the way the machines are used. Truly, for any hospital to buy, for example, the anaesthetic machines, there are people in theatres who are trained to use these machines. You do not just go there whether it is echocardiogram (ECHO) as she referred to it or electrocardiogram (ECG) machines and start operating. There are people who are trained to use those machines. If the use is without care, then that is a very unfortunate state of affairs, but people are trained to use those machines. They are surely trained to use and read and interpret the results to the patients and to themselves to prepare for treatment of patients. I should believe that we have people who are trained. You do not buy equipment when you do not have personnel to operate it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, I know we have trained doctors and we trained people to use those machines. When the machines are bought, people go have seminars on their usage. I am so happy that the Government is saying it is going to buy theatre machines across the country. However, my question is: after buying, does the Government have a deliberate policy, even at tertiary education level, to train personnel who are going to service the equipment after buying it? I have moved here and there, the people who are there are the ones who know how to use the machines but when a brand new machine has got a small problem, we pack it and prefer to buy a new one. Is the Government planning to start training technicians, who I know we do not have, to start looking after this medical equipment? It is cheaper for us to maintain the equipment but very expensive for us to keep on buying. Does the Government have a deliberate policy to start engaging our technicians to start moving at the rate technology is moving?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is talking about maintenance of the equipment. The first person who brought out the question of the issue of buying machines also raised the issue of warranty. So, for any equipment that is very expensive, the warranty comes in and after that, surely there should be training.

Madam Speaker, I stand here as the Vice-President and regarding who needs to be trained, I cannot say whether that is already on paper or not. However, we cannot have machines that we cannot repair. After the warranty, you take over and you must be able to repair the machines. I think that is the way to go. That is common sense. If we have not been doing that, then that is unfortunate. The machines should not be used once and then thrown away. So, I should believe there are fields even in the health sector where there are technicians. In some fields, we may not have them, but I am sure the ministry will take care of that as we acquire this equipment.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President. My question is on the same machines or equipment which is anaesthetic and autoclaving machines. These are specialised machines that are used in theatres. Firstly, taking into account that these are part of the diagnosis of diseases and they are highly directed to physicians to ascertain the type of drug that should be given to the patients. Is Her Honour the Vice-President able to tell and update the nation about the status of drugs at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and hospitals across the country so that people can know?

Madam Speaker, in addition to that, the people of Lubansenshi Constituency would also love to know which hospitals will be catered for in terms of this equipments because Her Honour the Vice-President mentioned that the Government will not buy this equipments specifically for Lusaka or UTH, but other hospitals. So, which other hospitals are these? It is important to have this information so that even the good people of Lubansenshi Constituency can know that even Luwingu District will have this equipment.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I do not think it will be fair to ask Her Honour the Vice-President about the status of the drugs across the country. Therefore, I will ask Her Honour the Vice-President to, maybe, answer the last part of the question.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I know your hon. Members like to sneak questions in so they get more information. I am sure that would come under the supply of medicines, but issues of consumables have been tackled in here.  When there are consumables, it means they come and finish and we continue to buy. I think the response given by the ministry is very clear; that it is in all other hospitals. There are some for teaching hospitals and others for everywhere where they are theatres. I do not know how big or whether there are at different levels depending on the theatres and also others are not really for theatre. There are for other wings like maternity, echo and even those that may be used for ECG for heart diseases and things like that. I believe those machines will go to the hospitals according to their levels.

Madam speaker, I cannot isolate a particular hospital. This information is not given for today that I should isolate which hospitals will get the equipment. However, we believe it is countrywide. How wide, whether they will start with the provincial hospitals and go down to the districts, because in my earlier response I said this will be done in a phased manner. So, I cannot give him a specific answer of whether Lubansenshi will get all this equipment at the same time.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, the previous Government invested heavily in the health sector and that resulted in the construction of various hospitals like the specialised hospital which is along the Airport Road, the Maina Soko Military Hospital and among many other infrastructure in the health sector and of course equipped them with the state of the art equipment such as the Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI), Computerised Tomography (CT) scans, Electrocardiogram (ECG), mention them.

Madam Speaker, I was recently at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), I think about four days ago, and the CT scan there has broken down. The MRI machine gets hot during operations and they have to wait for it for three, four or five hours until it cools down for them to continue with the work. This is situation at UTH is urgent and needs to be addressed as opposed to concentrating on other parts of the country because this hospital is major in our nation?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I am sure the machines you have mentioned are not part of the two machines being talked about in the question. There are different machines. So, maybe, it will be very important for you to raise the urgent question so that it can be attended to and the people of Zambia can benefit. At the moment, we are just looking at those two machines mentioned in the question. Her Honour the Vice-President, any comment or what I have said is enough?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, thank you for that explanation. I think it is not good to just blow things out of proportion. The hon. Member cannot say all the hospitals that were constructed were equipped with state of the art machinery. That is not true. We have also gone round and we know that there are hospitals that are even functioning today yet they are incomplete. However, that is not the way to go. We are looking at these machines. Yes, I do agree and that is why we are buying them.

Madam Speaker, there is a lifespan, but also there was an element of carelessness. So, all those things should be looked at and the authenticity of the machines, I think the hon. Member came out very well to say some of these are of not – we may call it state of art, but the standard may have not been good. So, we cannot tell here whether it is standard of the equipment or the care that was given. It is not easy for me to tell here, but what we are going to buy must be of very high standard and must be looked after. I think that is the way forward. I have been to some of the hospitals that were constructed and if you saw some of them, you would cry because from 2017, the structures are falling apart. You do not do that. I was in Luangwa, but I do not want to open a pandora’s box. So, let us not boast for the sake of boasting.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF A MODERN POLICE STATION AND STAFF HOUSES IN

CHAMA DISTRICT

320. Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

     (a)    whether the Government has any plans to construct a modern police station and staff houses in Chama

             District;

     (b)  if so, when the plans will be implemented;

     (c)  what the estimated cost of the project is; and

     (d)  what the estimated time frame for the completion of the project is.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct a modern police station and staff houses in Chama District.

Madam Speaker, the plans to construct a modern police station and staff houses will be implemented when ongoing infrastructure projects which are 80 per cent and above are completed and when funds are made available.

Madam Speaker, the estimated total cost for the construction of a modern police station and ninety-five staff houses in Chama District is K62 million.

Madam, the estimated timeframe for the completion of the project is two years.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you kind Madam Speaker. These questions were asked when we just came to Parliament last year. We are almost clocking a year here and some of us are nine months old as Members of Parliament and for other hon. Colleagues, it could be their twenty-second year of being here.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: I am less than a year old.

Madam Speaker, permit the good people of Lumezi to ask the hon. Minister a question as to when will we try to get a different answer instead of saying when resources are available?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, once we fix the economy which was destroyed.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that response. Just as the hon. Member for Chama South, Hon. Mung’andu stated, Chama is one of the oldest districts in this country and it was conferred with a district status in 1973. Before that, it was part of Lundazi. However, if the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security went to Chama today, he would cry. What is there is not a police station, but a makeshift. It does not even have toilets. The cell rooms are pathetic. Coming from a trade union background, I wonder if the police had a union, I do not think they were going to allow the situation which is prevailing in Chama. In Germany and South Africa, police have trade unions.

Madam Speaker, police in Chama work under horrible conditions. The place is not fit for human habitation. The hon. Minister said the Government will first complete projects which are above 80 per cent or 90 per cent complete before embarking on others. Has the Government taken into account that there are some districts which are very old like Chama, which have no modern police stations, which new districts have? I think the people of Chama deserve a fair distribution of wealth in this country. We have been neglected for a long time now. We would be very grateful if at all–the hon. Minister said the timeframe for the completion of the project is two years, but we do not know when that project will start. It can start in 2026 and maybe end in 2027/2028. So, I want to ask the hon. Minister to try by all means to be specific so that we give hope to the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I expect any Government to have plans such as the First National Development Plan (FNDP) and the Second National Development Plan (SNDP), the way Dr Kaunda used to do it so that people understand and know that this structure will be built in such a year than just saying: “until funds are made available”. Besides that, Chama does not even have a correctional service, yet it is an old district. Accused people have to be transported to Lundazi. Accidents happen and people die on the way. People from Chama have to go to Chinsali to go and visit their relatives who are in remand prison. I do not think this is correct.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North, my good friend Hon. Mtayachalo, that what has been happening in this country and to the people of Chama in particular, is not correct. From the time of independence to date, Chama was being neglected by all the previous Governments that ruled this country. They never paid attention to Chama. At least for us, we have a plan to construct a modern police station in Chama with ninety-five houses.

Madam, my hon. Colleague, the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development toured the Eastern Province. He told me that when he came to Chama he cried because of the negligence of the past Government pertaining to the way the people of Chama were treated.

Laughter

Mr Mundubile: Evidence!

Mr Mwiimbu: Hence, he has assured the people of Chama North and Chama that he will do something to ensure that they start believing that they are part of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that my hon. Colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is looking at ways of ensuring that something will be done for certain projects, especially those that are supposed to be constructed under new districts which have not been provided for. It will only be done under the New Dawn Administration and the leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema, unlike those who were praising themselves for having brought development when they did nothing for Chama, hence the cries and tears that are coming from the people of Chama. They can be assured that something will be done.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, what I know is that development is a process. The previous Government started and had a plan of constructing police stations and houses across the country. When we were coming out of Government, we did handover notes to the incoming Government. I am aware that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security has received the handover notes from the previous Minister or the Permanent Secretary (PS) in that ministry. I am also aware that the construction of police stations and houses across the country was one of the major projects which the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security was looking at.

Madam Speaker, when will the people of Chama South have a police station and those ninety-five houses, bearing in mind or putting into consideration that this plan has been in the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security? What we expect from the Government is just to give the people of Chama a specific timeframe.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The area in question is Chama North.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the good hon. Member for Kabushi did indicate that in every Government there is supposed to be a plan and when a Government is kicked out, it is supposed to leave handover notes to those who are coming in. I agree with him. However, what happened is that when they were kicked out, they did not handover anything because they were bitter.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: So, we have been assembling and coming up with plans ourselves on how to serve our people, hence, the plan which I have submitted here for Chama as a district. If you had a plan for Chama and taking into account that for the last fifty-six years, there has not been a police station in Chama, it would have been one of the districts that you should have started with. However, because you did not care for the people of Chama, you ignored them and did other things somewhere else. Hence, the tears that are rolling down the eyes of my hon. Colleague, Hon. Mtayachalo, Member of Parliament for Chama North.

Madam Speaker, we have said that we have a plan. We want to ensure that the people of Chama North and Chama South, where Hon. Mung’andu comes from, benefit from this particular infrastructure, which we will put up. According to my hon. Colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi, he says, we must inherit the plan.

Madam Speaker, yes, we have inherited the decision of ensuring that only those projects which are almost complete are completed and only after we have completed the abandoned projects can we start new projects, based on the policy of continuity, which I have agreed with the hon. Member. So, we are doing that. However I did put a caveat that my hon. Colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is coming up with a project to ensure that certain areas – and he has been emphasising that certain areas of this country were discriminated and no development was taking place there and one such area is Chama. In Chama, there is nothing that happened during the last years, hence, our interest to ensure that the people of Chama also benefit. Although it is not part of my ministry, I am aware of the issue of the road from Lundazi to Chama. There is no road, not even a path going to Chama. So, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development are doing something so that the people of Chama can benefit. You cannot even construct a police station if there is no road to transport the materials. That is how the situation is Chama. Even Hon. Mung’andu agrees with me that there is no road there and the first priority is a road. Hon. Mung'andu is it not true?

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mung’andu: I agree hon. Minister, we need the road.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I thought the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts was here. Zambia has been losing. Let me make this point of order on the Leader of Government Business in the House because she is part of the Executive.

Madam Speaker, I would like to find out why we are still spending money and keep losing. As we are talking, Zambia is trailing; the score is one-zero. The other team has scored a goal. It is the reason, Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is answering like this. He kept reminding me that he wanted to go and watch the game.

Madam Speaker, is the Executive in order to keep allowing or entertaining straight loses? We cannot even concentrate on the Floor of the House.

I need your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: That is on a lighter moment. Otherwise, I think you are free to ask the players themselves why they are losing and they will answer.

Mr Menyani Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, it is a concern, and I think this has been happening for some time. Hon. Members on your right – I am directing my point of order to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. This is on the content of speech under Standing Order 65.

Madam Speaker, the issue of other areas having being discriminated or never receiving things or developmental projects has affected some of the constituencies like the constituency where I come from, Nyimba Constituency. I do not have a single medical facility sponsored or built by the Government. The one which was started is at 40 per cent. It is being used although it has never been finished. When we were allocated two mini-hospitals, Madam Speaker, those mini hospitals were grabbed with the same attitude of saying the Eastern province received more developmental projects when in Nyimba you cannot point at a single hospital as one built by any successive Government and today, this has continued.

Madam Speaker, this thing is dividing us as a country and should come to an end. Is the hon. Minister in order to continue portraying that some areas received more development than other areas? I can challenge hon. Ministers to state how many mini hospitals they have in their constituencies. Is the hon. Minister in order to continue portraying this scenario?

Mr Mtayachalo: Hammer!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to continue saying that other places were given more projects than others.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Order!

Hon. Members, it is very difficult for the presiding officer to know which constituencies received what. However, hon. Member, if you are not happy, you can always raise a question so that the concerned ministry can answer you. You can even argue to say there is nothing in Nyimba as opposed to you making a general statement. Like I indicated, we do not know who received what. We are just hearing from the hon. Ministers who are informing us that some areas were left out. Maybe, the Government has taken visits to those places, we do not know, but it is very difficult at this point for me to even agree or not to agree because I do not know which areas were left out. So, hon. Member for Nyimba, can you please raise a question on that matter, so that it can be attended to.

CONSTRUCTION OF SHIMUMBI MINI HOSPITAL

 322. Mr Chewe asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

       (a)   when the construction of Shimumbi Mini Hospital in Luwingu District will commence;

       (b)   what the cause of the delay in commencing the project is;

       (c)   what the cost of the project is; and

      (d)   what the time frame for the completion of the project is.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the construction of Shimumbi Mini Hospital in Luwingu District will not commence due to changes that were made during the revision of the distribution list by the Ministry of Health affecting all sites that had not commenced works at the time of the revision and Shimumbi was among the affected sites.

Madam Speaker, there is no delay as indicated above, the project will not be undertaken as the revised distribution list does not include Shimumbi Mini Hospital. Therefore, the question under (c) does not stand due to the answer at (a) above. Similarly, part (d) of the question does not stand due to the answer at (a) above.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, to begin with, it is unfortunate to have that feedback from the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. Not too long ago, the good people of Lubansenshi Constituency and the people of Zambia at large were promised to access of better and quality health services. May I know the main reason Shimumbi Mini Hospital will not be constructed so that the good people of Lubansenshi can clear their minds.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, let me provide the history. The project to develop Shimumbi Mini Hospital was meant to be part of Government’s plan to develop 115 mini hospitals across the country. However, the site was left out of the final approved list by the Ministry of Health. The approved list of mini hospitals was revised to allow for equity in the distribution of mini hospitals across the country. Some provinces had not benefited from the initial allocation, while other provinces had been allocated more. Specifically the revision was made after the change of hon. Ministers of Health from Dr Chitalu Chilufya to Dr Jonas Chanda during the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. Out of the 115 mini hospitals, 86 are complete of which 53 are operational. The project is funded by the Government in partnership with a United Kingdom (UK) based Company, New Medical Services (NMS).

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Lumezi to take advantage of those opportunity because the intention was to rise on a point of order on the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security but this opportunity was not granted. However, our hon. Colleagues have been singing a song that some regions of this country were discriminated against. Permit me to ask Hon. Milupi, the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to answer this question: are the people of Shimumbi being discriminated against for them not to be given that mini hospital?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Lumezi for his incisive question. The answer I have read out is not indicative of what this administration has done. This is a historical answer. I have even given names of the people who were there as Ministers when these decisions were made. As to whether they were discriminated or not, that question must be directed to those who made the decision.

Hon. Government Members: Correct.

Eng. Milupi: Madam, the New Dawn Administration did not make any decisions to remove Shimumbi from the list. Earlier on, when the hon. Member for Kabushi, the ‘bulldozer’ himself was interacting with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security talked about plans that Governments takeover or hand over to the next Government. This plan to redistribute the min hospitals was undertaken by our predecessors rightly or wrongly, and that is what we are continuing with at the moment. As we go further in time, these plans will have to be looked at depending on specific needs not only on Shimumbi Area, but also of the whole country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I have heard the hon. Minister referring to the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi as a ‘bulldozer’, ...

Mr Menyani Zulu:  On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu: … when they are trying to cripple our bulldozer and yet, he is referring to him as a bulldozer. Stop crippling our bulldozer. We need it to be full throttle

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, coming to the point of clarification, if the hon. Minister has seen hon. Members getting concerned when some of you are saying certain areas were given more development than others, I want to inform you that Chama never received a mini hospital. I fought so hard, but only Dr Jonas Chanda started analysing which areas.

Madam Speaker, I am sure, you are aware that at some point, we were told that the former hon. Minister –I am as frank as I am, that that is my weakness – of Health, Dr Chitalu Chilufya had more than seven or ten mini hospitals in his constituency alone.

Hon. Government Members: It is a lie.

Mr Mung’andu: It is a lie?

Mr Mung’andu: He mentioned it himself on the Floor of the House. When we point out something, it is because we do not want you to repeat those mistakes. We want you to be different because it is for your own good and the good of our people and the good of the nation. Is the hon. Minister in a position to inform the people of Shimumbi through this noble august House, by coming to this House and distributing a schedule of redistributed health posts including those that have been completed and the timelines so that we, as a people know that you are doing the right? A right is a right and a wrong is a wrong. Is the hon. Minister able to do that?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, there are times when the hon. Member for Chama South, hon. Mung’andu makes very reasonable suggestions and his comments on this indicates that he understands what the situation was. This redistribution, he is quite right, from this answer, it was raised during the time of Dr Jonas Chanda because he understood that there were other areas that were discriminated against, including Chama, for example. Our duty, as a Government, is to look at this, and if he is asking for the distribution of mini hospitals –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

The House adjourned at 1840 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 8th June, 2022.

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WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION

 

CHALIMBANA/MANYIKA ROAD PROJECT

 

321. Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

     (a)   why the construction of the Chalimbana/Manyika Road in Chongwe District has stalled;

     (b)   when the project will resume;

    (c)   what the cost of the outstanding works is; and

    (c)    what the time frame for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, the construction of the Chalimbana/Manyika Road in Chongwe District has stalled due to funding challenges. The project will resume once funds have been secured. The cost of the outstanding works is K78,592,421.80. The time frame for the completion of the project is twelve months from the date of commencement.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.