Thursday, 9^th June, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT, ON THE CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUND GUIDELINES

Mr J. E Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving the good people of Petauke Central this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance. It is directed to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Mr Speaker, the New Dawn Government, the good Government, released the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) on time, but right now, it is sitting in our accounts in all the constituencies of Zambia. Further, when the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development received the proposed CDF projects, it approved all of them. However, the bureaucracy surrounding the Constituency Development Fund Act and the CDF Guidelines are making it difficult for us to start the projects. So, I am asking the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to issue a ministerial statement so that we can shorten …

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: … the long procedure in the CDF Guidelines.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

MR MENYANI ZULU, HON. MEMBER FOR NYIMBA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT, ON ADMINISTRATION OF THE CDF

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): On a matter of urgent public importance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am just echoing the issue of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Mr Speaker, if I am not mistaken, today is 9^thJune, 2022. So, we have gone through half of the year. However, unless some hon. Member of Parliament here who has a constituency wants to pretend, we should agree that the money we all have is for the first quarter of this year. Today, there is no hon. Member of Parliament here who can tell me that he has distributed any Ngwee for CDF projects.

Mr Speaker, we send our children to schools on bursary, which is a very brilliant idea. People have to go there for free education purposes, and the Government decided to give us the money. However, unless the hon. Minister of Education wants to pretend otherwise, he will admit that he has pressure because we have not given monies to respective schools, and the simple reason is that the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development has been issuing circulars. Today, you receive this circular, but when you try to implement it, another circular comes. It is like the whole CDF system has become a circular system.

Mr Speaker, is the Acting hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development in order to comfortably sit there without giving the position of the Government? When will this thing start moving? We cannot have a system in which a circular comes out, but when you try to implement it, another comes out.

Madam Speaker, is the Acting hon. Minister in order to keep quiet on this very serious matter?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Nyimba, you contradicted yourself. You rose on a matter of urgent public importance and then you also raised a point of order. A point of order is supposed to be raised when there is a procedural breach or breach of practice in the House.

Mr Menyani Zulu: It is IT failing us.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: However, I will permit the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development next week on Wednesday to issue a ministerial statement as regards the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), because it is quite contentious. So, I think Hon. J. E. Banda and Hon. Menyani Zulu, next week Wednesday, expect a ministerial statement from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

MR J. CHIBUYE, HON. MEMBER FOR ROAN, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT, ON NON-DISBURSEMENT OF THE CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUND (CDF)

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): On a matter of urgent public importance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. Chibuye: Mr Speaker, I rise to raise a matter of urgent public importance. Like my fellow hon. Members did, I also direct this matter to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Mr Speaker, indeed, the intention of the New Dawn Government of sending our children to skills training centers on full bursary, as was pronounced, is brilliant. So, in my constituency, I moved at lightning speed to ensure that the policy was implemented, and we sent students, mostly to the Northern Technical College (NORTEC), on the understanding that monies would be paid to the institution once the issue of the CDF was sorted out. The students I sent to NORTEC are failing to attend classes, today, because NORTEC, albeit a Government institution, is complaining that the monies are not forthcoming, and the students are now complaining that we deceived them that monies would to be paid to them. Many of the students are actually languishing in Ndola.

Mr Speaker, I need your guidance.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much, hon. Member. Maybe, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development can shed light?

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu) (on behalf of the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo)): Mr Speaker, you have given guidance and, as a listening Government, we have heard the issues that have been raised by our hon. Colleagues. So, we promise that on Wednesday, as you have directed, we shall come up with a comprehensive statement on the CDF and proposals on how to resolve the issues that have been raised by my hon. Colleagues, as the issues being raised are quite pertinent. We are also aware that there have been delays pertaining to the releasing of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

I thank you, Sir.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

UPDATE ON 30,000 TEACHER RECRUITMENT

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver a ministerial statement on the recruitment of 30,000 teachers.

Sir, as you may be aware, the vision of the Ministry of Education is to provide accessible, inclusive, quality and lifelong education relevant to the needs of an individual, the nation and the world at large. This implies that it is the responsibility of the Government and other stakeholders to provide and ensure that education is accessible to all, and not leave anyone behind. This can be achieved by taking into account or consideration many factors that include among others, availability of teachers in schools.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Members of Parliament may recall that the ongoing recruitment of teachers arose from the pronouncement made by His Excellency,  the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, during the ceremonial opening of the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, and is also in line with the United Party for National Development (UPND) manifesto.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, following the pronouncement by His Excellency, on teacher recruitment, the Ministry of Education together with its stakeholders immediately commenced the process to ensure that teachers were recruited and deployed across the country, accordingly. This kind of commitment shows how the New Dawn Government attaches great importance to education and in particular, the provision of quality education. Today, I am delighted to stand before you to update the House and the nation at large on the teacher recruitment exercise by taking stock of what has been done so far and the way forward.

Sir, in order to make the whole exercise of teacher recruitment possible, the New Dawn Administration allocated an amount of K1,994,817,600 in the 2022 National Budget. The allocation of such an amount in the National Budget for the recruitment of teachers has gone a long way in making it possible for the ministry to undertake the exercise, which will improve the teacher-pupil ratio and ultimately enhance the quality of education. Hon. Members of this august House may be aware that the average teacher-pupil ratio stands at 1:58 for primary schools and 1:38 for secondary schools against the required standard teacher-pupil ratio of 1:45 and 1:35 at primary and secondary school levels, respectively.

Mr Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House that 116 human resource management committees were established in all districts in the country. The committees were mandated to recruit the teachers in the respective districts under the decentralised model, and they comprised the following:

      (a)   Management Development Division, Cabinet Office;

      (b)   Public Service Management Division;

      (c)   Ministry of Finance and National Planning;

      (d)   Teaching Service Commission;

      (e)   Teacher Unions;

      (f)   Teaching Council of Zambia;

      (g)   Zambia Qualifications Authority;

      (h)   Examinations Council of Zambia;

      (i)   Higher Education Authority; and

      (j)   Ministry of Education.

Mr Speaker, you may recall that in my earlier ministerial statement, read on the Floor of this House on the recruitment of the 30,000 teachers, I clearly stated that written letters to the District Commissioners (DCs) to play an oversight role of monitoring the entire process from the beginning to the end at district level were dispatched. I am glad to report that when the teaching service commissioners went round countrywide, to monitor the recruitment exercise, all the DCs confirmed their participation in the recruitment exercise accordingly.

To further enhance the accountability, credibility and transparency of the process, the following institutions were engaged in the recruitment exercise:

      (a)    Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC)

      (b)    Office of the President (Special Division);

      (c)    Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC);

      (d)    Smart Zambia Institute (SZI);

      (e)     Ministry of Labour and Social Security;

      (f)      Zambia Postal Services Corporation (ZAMPOST); and Zambia Police Service.

Mr Speaker, the committees in all the 116 districts received completed student-teacher application forms from applicants through the Zambia Postal Services Corporation (ZAMPOST). The total number of applications received was 100,877 against the 30,000 to be recruited, broken down per province as follows:

Province                   Number of Districts         Allocated number                   Applications

                                                                     to be Recruited                        Received

Northern                               12                                3,740                                 9,998

Luapula                                12                                2,073                                 7,564

Southern                               15                                3,313                                12,706

Eastern                                 15                                4,187                                12,548

Copperbelt                             10                                2,693                                14,114

North-Western                       11                                 3,583                                 7,986

Central                                  11                                 4,150                               17,513

Western                                16                                3,600                                 7,153

Lusaka                                    6                                   740                                 5,318

Muchinga                                 8                                1,921                                 5,977

Total                                     116                              30,000                              100,877

Mr Speaker, the allocated number of teachers to be recruited per province was arrived at through the data collection exercise that was obtained from the 116 districts, which established the staffing needs of each school across the breadth of this country.

Mr Speaker, let me hasten to state that the district human resource management committees screened, shortlisted and selected suitable candidates according to the needs of the districts and submitted to the Provincial Human Resource Management Committees for validation and consolidation. The Provincial Human Resource Management Committees in turn, submitted to the Teaching Service Commission (TSC) for the technical committee at national level to subsequently undertake the national consolidation and verification. Currently, the technical committee is sitting to do the quality assurance and national consolidation of the 30,000 teachers, after which the names of the selected teachers will be published in both print and electronic media.

Mr Speaker, may I now conclude by stating that providing quality, lifelong, accessible, equitable and relevant education for all is at the heart of the New Dawn Government. This is the reason my Government decided to recruit 30,000 teachers at once. The House will agree with me that education is an equaliser and hence, the need to provide quality and equitable education. As such, the recruitment of 30,000 teachers will invaluably create opportunities for all citizens of this country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement rendered by the hon. Minister of Education. The hon. Member for Bwacha.

Rev Katuta: On a point of order Mr Speaker!

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, can I proceed?

The Second Deputy Speaker: You can proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the statement. The recruitment of teachers under the New Dawn Government, if I may recall, began last year when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane announced through the presentation of the 2022 Budget, that 30,000 teachers were going to be recruited. It is now six months down the line, statements and updates have been given, but it is sad to see what is happening, especially what transpired in the Southern Province.

Mr Speaker, in the statement the hon. Minister has given, there is a call by the hon. Minister for Southern Province and some other sections of society that the list for the Southern Province that was submitted to the higher authorities be withdrawn because some officials in the Southern Province were neither consulted nor involved. The hon. Minister has clearly stated that his office, that of the District Commissioner (DC), and other stakeholders in the Southern Province, were consulted. Now that there is an instruction from the hon. Minister for Southern Province that the list that was submitted be withdrawn, what is the status quo? Does the hon. Minister not think that it is going to delay the announcement of names? Could the hon. Minister indicate when the list of recruited teachers for 2022 will be out?

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I think there are no clarifications that have been said on the Floor of this House. This is my second statement I am issuing to the House and the nation. I am not privy to the other things that happened outside. I have updated the House and this is what is obtaining as of now. I have said that the National Committee is updating and validating. So, the hon. Member should have asked on what I have stated and not what he heard elsewhere because I am not privy to things that are happening outside. So it is not true that statements have been made. I only made two statements, the earlier one and the current one. On the other one, one is only permitted to ask one question.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, if the House may recall, in my earlier statement, I said the following: “It is anticipated that all things being equal, the schedule, ...” I mean that lengthy schedule which I gave. Things did not happen the way they were anticipated. If hon. Members still recall, when we advertised, people called for more days and we extended the period by a week. This meant that my schedule already started changing. It was anticipate that the Committees would sit for six days. They were overwhelmed by the number of people who had applied. So, they took about sixteen to seventeen days across the breadth of this country, just to make sure that they did a good job. So, that again, got into our schedule. It is not true that we do not want to quickly do these things. I am in hurry because there are so many children in schools and due to this, I need teachers.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is saying that this recruitment started last year in September when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning announced the Budget. We did not start recruiting there and then because the money was going to come into another Budget. However, when I made a ministerial statement that day, I said that we had to start the process in November. We made sure that that process was watertight because we had to do a baseline research, to see how we were going to manage this process with the huge numbers.

Mr Speaker, we started the baseline process around November but it took us six months in order to come up with this line of recruitment. Of course, the new recruitment started around April, when we advertised and people started applying. So, we are on course, but as I said, “It is anticipated that all things being equal...” Unfortunately, they have not been equal. If people did not ask for more days of the advert, may be it could have been something else. The Committees in all 116 districts in the provinces said they wanted more time in order to scrutinise the many applications they had received.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister for his statement. I also want to show my solidarity by stating that I really feel sorry for him, for the manner in which his fellow hon. Ministers want to treatment him. I will just give him two examples. One hon. Minister issued a statement that the Ministry of Education must bring back Mr Jobbicks Kalumba as if the current Minister was not able to see that Mr Jobbicks Kalumba was good man.

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, another hon. Minister issued a statement that the Teaching Service Commission (TSC) must stop processing the list of teachers which has been submitted. This is my problem. I am tempted to think that his fellow hon. Ministers think he has no capacity to see all these things.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, let me share my thoughts. These are my thoughts but unfortunately, they will not direct the way I think. That is the problem.

Mr Speaker, for me who has been with the hon. Minster for a longer time, I know his goodness and capabilities. My sympathy is emanating from those hon. Ministers who think the hon. Minister of Education cannot do the job. How deep has the TSC been affected by those hon. Ministers who are calling for the recruitment process to be stopped even when the hon. Minister is sitting in the ministry?

Mr Speaker, I think I have to guide the House on this matter. You are required to seek questions on points of clarification as regards the ministerial but now, you are going off your way. Going forward, let us avoid this. Once a ministerial statement has been rendered, let us try to ensure that the points we want to clarify are in line with the ministerial statement rendered.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile: On a point of procedure, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Are you challenging the Speaker?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: Mr Speaker, as Leader of the Opposition, obviously, I have to ensure that my hon. Members are protected.

Sir, my hon. Member rose to ask a question, but we are not very clear on the position he has been given.

Sir, to repeat his question: There have been sentiments from other hon. Ministers regarding this process, and he wanted to know how deeply affected the commission is, given that hon. Ministers have made some comments on it. We believe that that question has not been addressed.

I seek your guidance, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think, the statements that were aired were well-attended to. I guided that we asked questions on points of clarification as regards the ministerial statement, but the hon. Member went off his way a bit. So, I think, I guided.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Nyimba may continue.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Mr Speaker, let me give kudos to the hon. Minister of Education (inaudible) more ministers can be so prudent when there is a national matter which needs to be attended to.

Sir, a constituency like Nyimba was given 128 teachers, six of which were secondary school teachers, even though we needed over fifty of them and about 122 primary school teachers. In the case of my constituency, it has been deprived of about seventy teachers who are probably, working either in Lusaka or Chipata and are on the Government payroll. We have been deprived of this figure because I think when the hon. Minister checked his database, he thought that the seventy teachers were still in Nyimba District.

Mr Speaker, how is he going to address this issue so that we can also have an equitable number of teachers, just like other districts that have received more teachers?

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, it is a bit difficult for me to started dealing with constituency by constituency. There are 156 constituencies and if I now start singling them out, each hon. Member will stand up and say, “how about myself?” That is how far we could go. Hon. Members will recall that I said that we only carried provinces or schools which were below 36 per cent. Anything over 50 per cent, the numbers were low.

Sir, if the hon. Member checked in Lusaka, they would find that the numbers were low because many people were transferred to Lusaka. So, it means that they have at least, full establishments in some of the schools. What we were going to do in order to distribute within Lusaka – Many people were coming to Lusaka on transfer, leaving rural areas, to join their spouses. The policy is talking about spouses and we cannot take them anywhere else. They will have to remain here to be redistributed within Lusaka. So, even those schools which are understaffed, which are within Lusaka, will receive a fair share. Although the number looks small, each school has actually got a bigger number. So, those will be distributed within Lusaka. The hon. Member should be comforted. We know that we have just begun and in future, we will be taking into account what we have just said.

Mr Speaker, you will realise that this is a very strange statistic. From 1964, fifty-eight years later, we have had between 110,000 and 120,000 teachers. At the moment, we are recruiting 30,000. So, we have only recruited one-third of that number in last fifty-eight years.

Sir, I am hoping that Zambians are now realising how serious the President is for him to commit to 30,000 teachers at a go. When we calculated these numbers with my statisticians, we saw that President Hakainde Hichilema had dealt with a crisis that was going to occur in the next thirty years. The issue is that many of our children have stopped going to colleges of education. Since they are not going into colleges of education, we are going to swallow all these teachers. In the next thirty years, we would remain with a crisis of teachers and we would be importing teachers.  However, because of these 30,000 teachers, many are now being encouraged to go to colleges of education. This means that the President would have served two terms which is ten years.  So, this is what a President should look forward to.

Sir, for the information of my colleagues, I have received maximum help from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in running this exercise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I want to congratulate the hon. Minister for taking this step of recruiting 30,000 teachers. We are trying to reduce the pupil/teacher ratio in our country. Now that his Government has introduced –

Mr Michelo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Michelo: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to rise on a serious point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 206.

Mr Speaker, I think, we have seen a lot in this House from some hon. Members of Parliament, yet we had an orientation on how to dress in this House. I am looking at the Member of Parliament for Pambashe, Hon. Chitotela. Is he in order to come to the Floor of this House dressed as if he is going to herd cattle?

Laughter

Mr Chitotela: What is the problem? (raising his jacket).

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think it is the jacket you have worn on top.

Interruptions

Mr Chitotela: It is not a jacket; it is a coat which is allowed.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: It is allowed? Let me see.

Mr Chitotela left his seat and stood in the right aisle.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Member for Bweengwa, I think the hon. Member is in order to wear the coat that he is wearing. The hon. Member for Petauke Central is the one who is out of order. He has worn the same clothes that he wore yesterday. This is an act of impunity on the Floor of the House. These are the same clothes that Madam First Deputy Speaker sent you out for. I think it is better you go out to dress appropriately, hon. Member for Petauke Central.

Mr J. E. Banda left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Kabushi may continue.

Mr Lusambo: Mr Speaker, before I continue, I just want to show my father, the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development that I am putting on a suit. This is just a coat to protect myself. (Mr Lusambo showing off his coat). I think even my son, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning can bear with me that I am nicely dressed.

Laughter

Mr Lusambo: Mr Speaker, I just want to first of all, congratulate the hon. Minister of Education for recruiting 30,000 teachers, in order to reduce the teacher/pupil ratio in our country.  Now that his Government has introduced free education, and we have seen the increase of the learners in the schools across the country, how is the Government going to deal with the number of learners who have now started going to school and teachers are there. Where is the Government going to take the 30,000 teachers and increase on the number of classrooms at the existing schools?

Mr Speaker, the recruitment of 30,000 teachers is a good thing but we also wanted to see new infrastructure in these schools.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, we all know that we require infrastructure in the schools but I think first things first. When free education was actually promulgated by the President, we saw an influx. What that showed us was that people were not affording to take their children to school. I think that is the first issue that we should all be aware of. 

Mr Speaker, currently, we are working with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. This is a sign that we are now interested in infrastructure. For the entire infrastructure whose works stalled, at least the Ministry of Finance and National Planning will be releasing money maybe, by July or August for the same. We will try to check how we can finish the works that were stalled. I also wish to encourage all the hon. Members that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) will be part of that to help the Central Government finish off structures or to build more structures. However, as we go forward, I think we will be scaling-up in building infrastructure for schools.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Katombola, I thank you for allowing me to add a voice of congratulations to the Ministry of Education on achieving a dream of recruiting over 30,000 teachers. It is well-deserved.

Mr Speaker, Katombola Constituency is a beneficially of 6,700 teachers. Could I be assured that the number will not be altered such that teachers in the rural areas will end up having ...

Interruptions

Mr Andeleki: ... 670 teachers? That is the position I am making.  Secondly, teachers in rural areas are working under very severe hardships. Is the Government considering adding up on their conditions of service?

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, if everybody cared to follow me, I said that the validation is still with the TSC. We started with the district, went to the province and now, it is with the TSC, which is doing the validation. I have not announced the numbers per constituency but per province because they are still under validation. I will still come back here to announce and hon. Members will be allowed to come and check what has been put to their Constituency. Otherwise, for now, it is just hearsay. So, the nation will be informed through a proper statement. However, as of now, they are still under validation. I cannot start talking about things that are still under validation.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I would like to acknowledge the statement by the hon. Minister of Education, which was quite elaborate in terms of the statistic that he gave.

Mr Speaker, even when the hon. Minister is saying that we should not take a constituency-based approach in looking at these matters, the trickledown effect of what the Government has been preaching as equity means that we need to take care of those areas that are highly deprived. Chilubi happens to be one of the areas that are deprived.

Mr Speaker, according to the statistics that the hon. Minister presented, the Northern Province was allocated 3,740 teachers. He went further to indicate that the teacher-pupil ratio for primary schools was 1:58 and that for secondary schools was 1:38. The ideal ones for both primary and secondary schools are 1:45 and 1:35, respectively.

Mr Speaker, currently, Chilubi Constituency has fifty–eight primary schools, eighteen community schools and seven secondary schools. The establishment that we asked for Chilubi was 301 but it was given 174. This interprets statistically that, if we are to follow the provincial average, we are given 56 per cent of what we asked for.

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Excuse me! Can I be excused? On top of the statistics that the hon. Minister has given, we have 107 teachers who are appearing on the Chilubi Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) but are not working in Chilubi. So, those are some of the discrepancies that Chilubi is facing. Firstly, we are looking at such statistics. On behalf of the people of Chilubi, when we talk about quality education, we mean the teacher-pupil ratio, desk-pupil ratio, classroom-pupil ratio and many other things.

Mr Speaker, currently, in Chilubi, we have schools that have just one teacher manning the whole school.

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Excuse me! Excuse me! I did not come to Parliament for you. I came for my people and myself.

Mr Speaker, given that scenario,  what criteria, especially that the New Dawn Government has been talking about equity, was used to deprive Chilubi of the so much needed teachers, when it just asked for 96 per cent of the provincial average?    

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, in fact, his constituency has more than 50 per cent and he must be happy. I can see he is happy, but it is only that he wants to be heard by the people of Chilubi.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: I can see that many of these hon. Members are happy with this recruitment.

Mr Mung’andu: Except me!

Mr Syakalima: You will soon be very happy.

Sir, in carrying out this exercise, last year in 2021, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government recruited 1,200 teachers countrywide, which is an average of 7.6 teachers per constituency in this country. We will now recruit more than 100 teachers per constituency. Is that not a good beginning? This is what I am talking about. We are coming from a bad history. If you forget the lessons of history, you cannot make the future.

Mr Speaker, if recruitments were done every year, even if it was on average of 10,000 teachers per year, today, we could have had only maybe remained with 30,000 teachers, whom we could have had absorbed by now. So, this is something that is actually being done across the breadth of this country. In fact, these calculations were based on equity. I told the House that Lusaka had the highest staffing levels at 67 per cent against a backdrop of 12.6 per cent for the Eastern Province, 13.6 per cent for the Northern Province, 15.6 per cent for the Western Province and Central and Muchinga Province at 16.9 and 18.4 per cent. I read this here. This was in my first statement that I issued here on the teacher recruitment. If all of us cared to still remember what I said, I think we were going to reduce questions by now.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister for the statement, but I am concerned because I have messages from teachers who are asking why we have this delay. I want to quote the speech by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on 29^th October, 2021. The speech, on page 37, paragraph 169, under the heading ‘Keeping the Campaign Promises’ states:

“Madam Speaker, before I get to Part Three of the Address, I wish to make reference to some of the very important campaign promises that the UPND made and indicate how they are being addressed in the 2022 Budget.

Madam Speaker, in the education sector, at the stroke of a pen, we have found money and we shall embark on the recruitment of teachers. In 2022, 30,000 teachers will be recruited. We have found money.

Madam Speaker, let me now turn to the important issue of employment, a vexing problem, especially among our youths. Jobs are created in the public and in the private sector. Government will create a minimum of 44,000 jobs in 2022 through the recruitment of teachers, health workers and other personnel.”

Mr Speaker, the people are concerned that today is June, which is in the middle of the year, and the recruitment process seems to be going and coming. The hon. Minister seated behind the hon. Minister of Education, I think this week on Monday or Tuesday, threatened to suspend the recruitment of teachers in the North-Western Province. The hon. Minister is saying that they are recruiting and the people are concerned. What is the position of the Government over this matter? What has caused the delay from January to the sixth month? Why are we still in the recruitment process when the Budget was approved?

Interruptions

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, I am speaking to what the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said. Since January to date, which is in the sixth month, we have not seen any recruitment in the education sector. Therefore, the people out there are concerned. What has led to this delay that even today, in his ministerial statement, six months down the line, the hon. Minister cannot give the specific time frame of when teachers will be recruited?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let us avoid debating our own points. Let us ensure that we go to points of clarification as regards to the ministerial statement rendered because most of what Hon. Chitotela said was full of his comments and opinions.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I think my hon. Colleagues have run out of questions because in what he was reading, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said that we shall embark on the process. What is to embark?

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: It means that we will start. He never even said that we will start and end at a particular time. He just said that we shall embark. Now, let me tell our hon. Colleagues (PF) how they dangerously failed. They were doing things in the most haphazard manner.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, let me just explain this. Last week, I went to Britain to attend a World Forum on Education. When delegates from the London School of Economics and Political Science heard that there was an hon. Minister of Education from Zambia, they requested to meet me. When I asked why they wanted to meet me, they said it was because they did a research in Zambia. This is the London School of Economics, a well-renowned university. They said they embarked on a research on how to recruit –

Mr Mung’andu interjected.

Mr Syakalima: I said I have a condition. Si unvela iwe?

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: So, those delegates said that in 2012 and 2015, they had embarked on a sponsored research here by, I do not know whether it was the World Bank or any other institution. They did research on teacher recruitment and placement. Our hon. Colleagues across (left) never even wanted them to come and disseminate the information so that they follow something which is informed. They gave results of what they found out and how they designed a template.

Mr Speaker, we created a template on our own because what we found there was exactly the same template that we had here ourselves. We did this within six months. They failed to do that within seven years, but they were being helped by the London School of Economics and Political Science. If there were variations, they were minor. Just yesterday, the colleagues from this university wrote to me to say that out of the template that we had, which looked exactly like theirs, how did we manage? I said this is just about baseline research.

Mr Speaker, we did baseline research for six months from November, December, January, February, March and April. That is the baseline we did and the only thing that they are now trying to ask for in this recruitment process, which actually they have found here in Zambia, is to come back and see how far this will go or evaluate our baseline research, which we only did in six months. So, certain things must be done scientifically. These guys were just waking up and saying, “We shall recruit 1,200.” On which basis were they doing that?

Laughter 

Mr Syakalima: So, when things are looking good, they must encourage people who are trying to do that. For example, if it is in our teacher recruitment, the real recruitment, if they like, started somewhere in April and was done first of all, in the districts because this is what the Act says. They will deal with that and then send the results to the provincial centres. The provincial centres will send to the national headquarters for validation. That is what is being done today.      

Mr Speaker, in my earlier statement, I said “All things being equal.” This is being forward looking especially if you know that may be on the way, you may stumble, and so, you decide to prepare for any exigency. This is what we did; this is what we call being smart. The citizens asked for another week to run the advert. So, which people are they talking about out there? They are the same ones who requested for another week. Yes, we allowed them that one week. On the ground, the committees said that the six days period they were given was not enough. It is not me who did that. Those who were on the ground said that they required about sixteen to seventeen days. This was done across the breath of this country. This was everywhere. If Pambashe is a district, then it means that they asked for sixteen days. In Nyimba, they ask for seventeen days. I still have all that information. So, no one has delayed anything. Systems had to be out in place so that everybody felt they were Zambians.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Twasa: Mr Speaker, may I know if the hon. Minister of Education has a medical condition because he has been speaking without a mask throughout, even yesterday.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you have been here in this House for some time now. If you are rising on a point of order, you know what to do. This is not a market place.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Chonya: Question yaunka.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Mr Speaker, when we just came in, I rose on a point of order because the system had jammed and I could not register my name there. Now, I have seen that other people are being called to debate when my name is still there. I just want to find out whether my name is not yet there.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I know you should be surprised, but I have been trying to balance the debates. I pick some hon. Members from the right, from the left and from among the Independents. As you are aware, if your gadget is on, there are twenty-three or twenty-four people who had indicated. It is for this reason that I was able to recognise the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue. In terms of gender, no lady had spoken. So, the hon. Member for Kafue may continue.

Mrs Chonya: Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Mabonga (Mfuwe): I was wondering if Mr Speaker does not know that I am a lady because I have been waiting.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Ms Mabonga: Mr Speaker, as a young person, I sat here listening to the responses that the hon. Minister was giving but my simple question is –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Ms Mabonga: Mr Speaker, when should we expect the list of successful applicants? Is it this month, next month or next year? I think this is what the people out there have been waiting for. This is a simple question that my fellow hon. Members have asked the Hon. Minister.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I do not know how to answer the hon. Member. I have said that at national level, we are now doing validation, okay. The provinces did not send their requests at the same time. We are looking at validating 30,000 people. This is not a small number. It is a huge number. Therefore, I do not want the hon. Member for Mfuwe to cry foul saying that something went wrong. We want to be as thorough as we possibly can be. So, may be, the hon. Member wants to hear the word, “soon” but how soon is soon?

Mr Kapyanga: When funds are available.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, no, in this case, funds are already there. This is why we are running this exercise. We are not running this exercise without funds. The money is there and that is why we have now moved from district to national level. So, be patient enough. You were patient for ten years and you can be patient for the next three, four, five, seven or twenty days, even a month or two. So, patience sometimes is quite important and all of us are called upon to be patient. This is a mammoth task colleagues, which requires everybody because we are talking about the life line of a country, which is education. If we do not do anything good for this country, our own great grandchildren will blame us in future.

Mr Speaker, France invested in its own people. France managed to get quality teachers in forty years. It is not actually France but Finland. If we look at where Finland is today, it has invested in teachers. It made sure – In France, they get 10 per cent of the quality citizens to teach even Grade 1. So, what we are trying to do now is to prepare the future. In the next forty years, we must all be asking as to where Zambia must be placed.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order based on Standing Order No. 65, which states:

      “A member who is debating shall –

           “(b)      ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.’’

I rise on this point of order on the hon. Minister of Education. That hon. Minister over there (pointing at Hon. Syakalima).

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister rose in arrogance and told us, who were hon. Ministers before, that we were doing things in the most haphazard manner and that his methodical Government is now doing things meticulously.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was seated there. I saw him, and he mentioned 30,000 teachers. That was a definite number that required baseline information he could only get six months later. How did the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who is in a meticulous United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, find the 30,000 teachers?

Mr Speaker, is that hon. Minister in order to be presenting information that cannot be verified?

I seek your very serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Thank you, hon. Member. I reserve my ruling on this matter. It will be rendered appropriately.

Mr Lusambo: Why?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You do not need to ask why; I have got the right and the preserve to reserve. That is my discretion. The ruling will be rendered accordingly. We will now have the last speaker.

Mr Chibuye (Roan): Mr Speaker, I thank you for making me the last person to ask a question.

Sir, I want to commend the hon. Minister of Education, and I am confident that he will not fail this process. The people of Zambia out there are looking up to him to ensure that things come out as they should be.

Mr Speaker, from his statement, 100,877 people tendered in their applications and 30,000 people will be successful applicants. I want to find out from the hon. Minister, especially that the 70,877 will be rejected at the end of the day, when they were made to pay application fees. Is the hon. Minister in a position to inform this House and the nation how much monies were raised in terms of application fees and where those amounts are sitting for the comfort of those who will not be selected?

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Roan for that question.

Sir, maybe, let me also just clarify one thing. In our data base at the Teaching Council of Zambia (TCZ), those teachers who had registered were 60,000. When teachers heard that we were going to recruit, they started going to the TCZ to register. Hence, the figure ballooned to 100,877. In our data base then, we had on 60,000 teachers. Teachers had stopped registering themselves with the TCZ because there was nothing there. They thought it was sheer waste of time …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: … but immediately they heard the advert, they rushed there and we did not block anybody because we knew those were Zambians who were just frustrated. Probably, this could even answer the point of order which somebody raised.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: So, we will look into that.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. 

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mung’andu: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order that hinges on the rights of your hon. Members.

Mr Speaker, you are aware that we are elected by the people to represent them, and we get paid for simply doing what we are doing in this august House, which is to speak.

Mr Speaker, I refer to Rule No. 65(2)(e), which is on the use of unparliamentary language or offensive expression.

Mr Speaker, a number of my colleagues, especially the hon. Members of Parliament who are in the Opposition, were sent on leave partly because of the conduct of this House and use of offensive expression. I will remind you. When the Leader of the Opposition, Hon. Mundubile, challenged the constitutionality of Head No. 1, State House, the Presiding Officer, instead of guiding appropriately, used what I would term an offensive expression by telling hon. Members that he did not know that they were childish, yet they had been in the House longer. That is what led partly to that suspension.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: I also heard, a few minutes ago, –

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: Unless, you are not on the Floor of this House.

Mr Speaker, can we correct this because it impedes us from enjoying our rights as hon. Members of Parliament. An hon. Member of Parliament, innocently, did not know the status of the hon. Minister of Education. I, too, initially did not know, except we communicate because I am very near to him, and he indicated that he has a medical condition. The other hon. Member did not know. However, the House ruled that people should not behave as if they were at the market, which is a very offensive expression, in my opinion, ...

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: ... and very unparliamentary. We are elected and respectable hon. Members of this august House.

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious guidance on the use of an offensive expression which, I believe, should come to an end. We are here to debate national issues and bring out serious issues that affect our people.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I reserve my ruling on your point of order. You know that in this House, –

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

In this House, there is a rule in your Standing Orders that a Member shall only speak upon being recognised by the Presiding Officer. So, an hon. Member of Parliament rising while another hon. Member is on the Floor, in itself, constitutes indiscipline.

Hon, Government Members; Hear, hear! 

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

The Second Deputy Speaker: Order! There is another point of order.

 A point of order is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. Let me state for the record that I equally have a medical condition, and seek your indulgence to speak without a mask on.

Sir, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 204(g), which provides that a Member shall listen in silence to the debates in the House.

Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I know that, in this House, all of us know the definition of ‘diplomacy’, and that the word ‘market’ is not part of the diplomatic words that we can use.

Mr Speaker, I am seated here, listening to the debates going on and the wisdom being poured out by various hon. Members on the Floor of the House, but there is the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock making running commentaries as the hon. Members on your left are pouring out their wisdom and knowledge on the Floor of the House, thereby disturbing me, a person who is here to take note of what the hon. Members are saying so that I can take the message to the people of Mpika. Equally, the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi ...

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: … keeps calling these ardent debaters “masholi”.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Whenever they rise to debate, he calls them masholi without giving the meaning of the word ‘masholi.’ What if he is using abusive language to your hon. Members of Parliament, who are here to serve the people and to debate?

Mr Speaker, I seek your very serious ruling on these people who are disturbing the decorum and peace of this House. I am here to represent the people of Mpika, and I must get every word uttered in this House.

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member.

I did not hear the hon. Member say that. However, if he said that, he should ensure that such utterances are not made in the near future.

Let us proceed.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us proceed.

Rev. Katuta: It is a burning point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I will just allow this one point of order by Hon. Katuta.

A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Mr Speaker, I just want to be helped by this House to understand which Standing Order discriminates or is used to select who should debate.

I just heard you, Mr Speaker, outline the rule that when one is recognised by the Speaker or – We have this system here (referring to the Electronic Chamber (e-Chamber) system)). If my name is appearing, I expect to be called but in this House, I have seen names being called here and there.

Sir, I am an Independent Member. So, I would like to know which Standing Orders have changed in this House, that are causing us to be left out when we have pressing questions to ask on behalf of the people of Chienge and Zambia at large. I tried to stand up and say that the machine had jammed but, fortunately, it started working. However, to my surprise, somebody who was at the bottom of the queue has been given the chance to debate and only one female hon. Member has debated.

Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling on this House.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think, there is no Standing Order that says that. However, one of the functions of Presiding Officers is to ensure that the business being transacted on the Floor of the House is regulated. So, bearing in mind that we are time-bound, and knowing that the topic at hand was quite overwhelming, we had to decide to manage time. It is a pity that you were not recognised but, definitely, there is no malice at all in your not being picked. I was trying to strike a balance between the Independents, the ones on the right and those on the left.

I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF CHIEFS’ PALACES IN CHIENGE DISTRICT

335. Rev Katuta (Chienge) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

      (a)   when the construction of palaces for the following Chiefs in Chienge District will commence:

             (i)   Senior Chief Puta; and

            (ii)   Chieftainess Lambwe Chomba;

     (b)   what the estimated cost of each project is; and

     (c)  what the estimated time frame for the completion of each project is.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu) (on behalf of the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo)): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the august House that the Government will construct palaces for Senior Chief Puta and Chieftainess Lambwe Chomba in Chienge District as part of the phased construction programme in which at least, three palaces will be constructed per province.

Mr Speaker, currently, the Government is implementing the first phase of the construction. In this phase the following palaces in Luapula Province are under construction;

     (a)   Chief Mununga – Nchelenge District;

     (b)   Chieftainess Kanyembo – Nchelenge District; and

     (c)   Chief Munkanta – Kawambwa District.

Mr Speaker, the estimated cost of each project will be determined once the procurement process of construction has been done.

Mr Speaker, the estimated time frame for the completion of each project will also be determined once the procurement process of construction has been done.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Rev. Katuta: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that answer. Mr Speaker, I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development that if we continue with the state of palaces in which our chiefs live in, anytime, we will hear of a disaster. I want to find out if there is another way of dealing with this issue because what I know is that the Government should always have some funds for emergencies.  In Chief Mununga, Chief Puta and Chieftainess  Lambwe Chomba’s palaces, anything can happen and we will not have to be sorry after that. Is there a way that the Government, maybe, is going to allow the hon. Member of Parliament with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Committee to use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF? The state of those palaces is a matter of life and death.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the usage of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is regulated and documented. The guidance has been given. If the palace is a Government property, the CDF can be used to repair the house. If it is a personal house, it becomes an issue. The hon. Member of Parliament can guide us at the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development if the same is a Government house. If it is, guidance will be given and rehabilitations will be done. There would not be an issue.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether he can assure the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge and my people out there that, as he will be submitting activities to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for consolidation, that programme will be considered even as the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning comes to present the Budget before this august House in 2023.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I will not want to make an assurance on the Floor of this House. The only assurance I can make to the nation and this House is that the Government has made a commitment that all chiefs in the country, irrespective of where they are situated, it is going to construct palaces for all chiefs. A programme will be announced at an appropriate time pertaining to the phases when these houses will be constructed. I am aware that my President and our President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, made a pronouncement that it is the responsibility of the Government to provide accommodation to all our chiefs and the Government is committed to that cause.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, LANDS AND NATURAL RESOURCES

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 27^th May, 2022.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Mabonga (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Michelo: Mr Speaker, in accordance with Standing Order No. 198, your Committee considered one topical issue, namely, a review of the implementation of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP).

Mr Speaker, considering that the hon. Members have read the report allow me to comment on some of the key findings from your Committee’s engagement with various stakeholders on the topical issue.

Mr Speaker, one key finding was that there was too much corruption and malpractices in the management of the FISP at various levels. In some instances, it was reported that there was a tendency of forming bogus cooperatives to conveniently access the inputs and that the biggest culprits in this vice were some members of the District Agricultural Committees in some of the districts. In some cases, some cooperative leaders are reported not to be giving the intended beneficiaries their allocation of inputs, despite them having registered and passed the eligibility criteria and even made a deposit.

Mr Speaker, in light of this, your Committee strongly urges the Government through the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), as well as the Zambia Police to make use of the existing legislation to eradicate corruption from the FISP if the objectives of the programme are to be realised.

Mr Speaker, another finding of concern to your Committee is that, in the initial design of the FISP, the monitoring and evaluation aspects were not included. This makes it difficult to effectively monitor the programme and has resulted into the poor targeting of beneficiaries. In light of the above, your Committee recommends for the introduction of a biometric identity system that will help in improving the monitoring aspect of programme.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further notes that the cost of importing fertiliser under the programme is exorbitant and a drain on the national coffers. In this vein, your Committee recommends for the recapitalisation of the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ), as well as promotion of other local investments in the fertiliser industry so that fertilisers can be manufactured locally.

Mr Speaker, furthermore, your Committee notes that the Government is currently reviewing the implementation modalities of the FISP, in line with its aspirations to have an equitable, efficient and comprehensive programme. In view of this, your Committee urges the Government to urgently unpack the contents on this comprehensive programme to all stakeholders which in turn, should help to cure the inconsistencies in the FISP.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, allow me to place on record the gratitude of your Committee to all the stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions.  Your Committee also wishes to thank you, Mr Speaker, for your guidance and the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the support services rendered to it throughout its deliberations.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Mabonga: Now, Sir.

Mr Speaker, I rise to second the Motion moved by the Chairperson, Hon. Kasauta Michelo that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Land and Natural Resources for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 27^th May, 2022.

Mr Speaker, I am confident that all hon. Members perused through the report. As I second the Motion please, allow me to highlight just a few issues that we observed as your Committee as we undertook the tour. As we interacted with the witnesses, one of the issues that your Committee noted was that, like the hon. Member said, there was corruption amongst civil servants like the Provincial Accounting Officers (PAOs), and the District agriculture coordinators (DACOs) who were involved in the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). So as your Committee, we recommend that a stiffer punished should be given to would be offenders.

Mr Speaker, secondly, another issue that was brought about as we toured was the illogical supply of fertiliser like in Chongwe and some parts of the Eastern Province. What happened was that the Government first supplied urea instead of D compound. By the time D compound was supplied, maize had already – In short, it was too late. So as your Committee, we also recommend that the Government should ensure that it supplies fertiliser in good time and a  logical manner.

Mr Speaker, another issue that we picked up as your Committee was the issue of lack of accommodation for extension officers. We discovered that most of the extension officers lived far away from their camps and this affected the way in which they conducted their business of providing extension services to the people. Your Committee recommends that as soon as possible, the Government should look into the issue of accommodation for the extension service workers countrywide, so that we can be able to provide extension services to our farmers.

Mr Speaker, we also discovered that most of the camps lacked extension services countrywide. Again, as your Committee, we recommend that the Government should immediately employ extension officers to the farms that do not have officers so that extension services can be provided to our people.

Mr Speaker, allow me to conclude by thanking the mover of the Motion, Hon. Kasauta Michelo and the members of your Committee for bringing to this House a very informative and useful report. I urge that this august House to adopt the report.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity given to the people of Chama South to pass a comment on the report of your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I have gone through your report and I have to mention that it is a wonderful report. Well done, Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources.

Mr Speaker, clearly, if you go through this report, you will find that there is a problem. Your Committee has presented a myriad of weaknesses to do with the Fertiliser Input Support Programme (FISP). Particularly, I was a bit shocked when I looked at the figures in terms of how much progressively the Government has invested in this programme. The report has acknowledged that there is little progression when it comes to our small-scale farmers’ livelihoods in terms of their benefit from this programme. 

Mr Speaker, in the past five years, if we look at the figures, the Government initially injected K1.8 billion which was the highest amount at the beginning. It went down to a paltry K1.1 billion. The least amount was experienced in the previous year when the Government spent about K1.4 billion, which slightly improved. In the 2021/2022 farming season, the Government spent K5 billion plus, which is the highest.

Mr Speaker, if you look at the output – FISP has to mostly do with the supply of fertiliser. This is the year that the country is expecting less production ...

Mr Kasandwe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu: ... when it comes to the maize output. Now, the question that the country will be asking is:

Mr Kasandwe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu: Why is it that when the Government spent K1.2 billion and K1.4 billion, the output was high and when it spend K5 billion, the output was low? There must be something wrong and we should start questioning the Government. Where has the rest of the money gone? Where is the problem?

Mr Speaker, your report has highlighted that there is rampant theft of fertiliser. Who is involved in the theft of this fertiliser? Is it the poor farmers? The answer is no. If I go to Chama South now, I will find that the majority of our people do not access this fertiliser. Who then is accessing this fertiliser? Your report has highlighted the District Agriculture Coordinating Committees (DACCs). What is happening on the ground is that extension officers connive with the agriculture cooperatives. I will give an example of Chama. Mr Speaker, 60 per cent of the fertiliser that goes to Chama, finds its way into Malawi where it is being sold. There is a complicated cycle of criminality going on. The question is, since the report of your Committee highlights these challenges, why then –

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, can you allow these points of order. They are disturbing my flow of thought.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You are protected; you can continue.

Mr Mung’andu: I thank you, Mr Speaker. The question is: Why is it that, your Committee makes these reports –

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: The Minister is not here.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: Hon. Speaker, address this issue. I am now being attacked directly.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you can continue.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am here and I am going to respond as the Minister of Agriculture.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Munir Zulu: Point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you very much, kind,  Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, a little earlier, the hon. Minister of Agriculture was in the House. He even greeted us, and this is his report. Procedurally, you should have notified the House, if there were any changes, on who was going to act, unlike the situation of one man trying to act as hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development because his friend is on holiday. We are not here to joke. Now, he wants to claim that he is the acting hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Mr Speaker, we seek your serious ruling on this matter.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Leader of Government Business in the House is the Vice-President. Consequently, if any Minister decides to leave the House prematurely due to other commitments or just to attend to other personal areas in need, the Vice-President will take charge of the Business. So, as long as the Vice-President is present, business can still be transacted.

You can continue, hon. Member for Chama South.

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, what I was trying to drive home is the fact that when this fertiliser is taken into our depots, in various districts and constituencies, people who connive with cooperative leaders are the Agriculture Extensions Officers (AEO). I have given an example of Chama. When a fertiliser is taken there, it finds itself in Malawi. I tried in the past, to act, but I was shocked to realise that it was a complicated syndicate. One would even be reporting the same matter to the beneficiaries of this criminality. I am therefore, appealing to my hon. Colleagues, particularly, the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, that if we are to achieve and elevate the lives of our people through the FISP, we need to put watertight systems to ensure that the targeted people, who are the beneficiaries receive this fertiliser. 

Mr Speaker, finally, because of time constraints, I will only say that your Committee has highlighted that the Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher) system was the best system to be implemented in the country. Now, why is it that the New Dawn Government has abandoned this system? It has gone back to Direct Input Supply (DIS) system, instead of following the e-Voucher System.

Mr Singombe: Question!

Mr Mung’andu: This is what the report says. You can say, “Question” but read the report.

Mr Speaker, we want to appeal that instead of abandoning the e-Voucher system, the Government needs to go back and revisit the weaknesses that it had. Probably, the same civil servants who have been highlighted in this report as having frustrated the process or involved in corruption, are the ones who frustrated the e-Voucher system. Under the e-Voucher system, it was very difficult for individuals to benefit from FISP. So, I am appealing to the Government again to revisit it. I know that the output is less this year because our colleagues politicised FISP and this is a fact. They felt that the Patriotic Front (PF) favoured their strongholds leaving the areas where they were not voted for. Instead, they took fertiliser to areas where people did not need fertiliser and this has affected the output in terms of maize production of this country.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Mr Speaker, I want to start by commending your Committee for a very well done job in terms of the key aspects that it brought out in its report. It indentified the challenges plaguing FISP. It also came up with some very good and progressive recommendations on how the whole programme could be managed, going forward.  I also do take note that the Government is also moving towards what is termed as the Agriculture Support Programme (ASP).

Mr Speaker, I hope that as we move in that direction, we will not lose out on the positive aspects that we derived from FISP. A number of weaknesses were indeed, identified but I just want to highlight the one pertaining to lack of a clear exit strategy from the beneficiaries.

Mr Speaker, as we know, this programme has been designed to put people on the programme for a period of about three years, but we found that people continued to benefit from this programme for a longer period. This has also led to a lot of frustration because new beneficiaries have wanted to come on board and every year they have applied to be included in the programme, but because it has not been able to absorb everybody, as a result, they have been frustrated. If this exit strategy was worked out properly and we got new farmers to come on board each time, receive the boost and then move on to be self-sustaining, this would be very well-done and a lot of people would benefit.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Agriculture, the other day did say that it is the small-scale farmers that contribute, largely, to the food basket of this country. So, we must indeed continue supporting our small-scale farmers so that they continue contributing in that manner.

 

Mr Speaker, one of the recommendations from the report was about recapitalising the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ). Just the other day, we were learning from the hon. Minister about the support that has been given to the NCZ so far and in what direction they are going. I want to use this opportunity to express our gratitude and the happiness of the people of Kafue about what the Government has done, particularly, to the NCZ whom they have awarded 50,000 tonnes of fertiliser production this time around from the traditional 10,000 tonnes that we used to experience in the past.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chonya: Mr Speaker, this is a highly commendable and gigantic step that has left the town with a lot of happiness and hope that their Government has listened to their long time cry of supporting their only industry. With what has been given to them now, we hope that a few more jobs will be created and it will address some of the woes that we are dealing with.

Mr Speaker, it is sad to note that the ugly face of corruption is also being cited in this particular programme. I can only stand with our New Dawn Government in its quest to eradicate corruption because we can see how it is jeopardising all well-intended programmes that are supposed to be of the benefit of all Zambians. Indeed, we must deal decisively with those officers and all those committee members who are trying to make a wrong business out of FISP because the idea is not for them to obtain this fertiliser dubiously and later on, sell it at a high price to the farmers. This is most unfortunate.

Sir, otherwise, I thought that this good report with its good recommendations could not go without a comment from the people of Kafue to just appreciate the key issues that it has brought out. Maybe, I will only add that even as we are trying to make agriculture our mainstay after copper, and also to improve the yield of our small-scale farmers who are benefiting from this programme, the Government should look at the issue of recruiting more agricultural extension officers the way they have done it for the teachers and public health workers.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me and the people of Dundumwezi an opportunity to make a few comments on the Motion this afternoon. May I also thank the mover and the seconder for bringing out issues that the sector is going through.

Sir, I want to state that some of us take agriculture as a very serious business. If we are to ensure that our farmers derive maximum benefits, certain things should be put in place. I want to agree with the report that there are some bad elements that are seriously involved in corruption. I want to urge the hon. Minister of Agriculture to find means and ways of getting the inputs to the end users.

Mr Speaker, it is true that in many cases, the applicants or a number of members in these cooperatives who have registered to access fertiliser do not receive the inputs. However, I want to thank the New Dawn Government because for the first time in ten years, our people in the Southern Province, to be particular, in Dundumwezi, where I have evidence, managed to get six bags of fertiliser from the usual two bags that they used to get.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: I think this is a very welcome move and I want to ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture to ensure that this continues because it is the only way that the people will make agriculture a business.

Mr Speaker, I want to make suggestions. One reason there is too much corruption in the distribution of inputs is the period that the Government delivers these inputs to various districts. I suggest that these inputs be taken straight to the satellite depots where farmers sell their maize. Currently, these satellite depots are empty and there is nothing wrong with taking these inputs straight to those holding depots so that it is easier for farmers to access them. You will find that it would be raining and the Government would struggle to deliver the inputs to various districts. As a result of the congestion, those who are powerful or financially sound are the ones who bring about corruption.

Sir, secondly, the extension officer to farmer ratio is quite alarming because you will discover that our camps in rural areas are so vast such that no single extension officer can manage. These extension officers are supposed to go to individual farmers to supervise or see what is happening but it is difficult for them to reach all the farms because they do not have transport and the camps are too vast. Hence, I support the Committee and wish to state that more extension officers are recruited to ensure that farmers are monitored.

Mr Speaker, like my hon. Colleague from Kafue has indicated, we want to see how these farmers will be graduating. How do you expect a farmer to graduate from six bags to more? I think we must look at how much a hectare requires for farmer to successfully produce these crops. We cannot just put up a number that is not attached to the hectare. So, I think for us, who take agriculture seriously, we request the Government to ensure that there is a proper exit plan. Otherwise, we will continue seeing the same people benefiting, year in year out.  

Mr Speaker, this year, we have in the rural areas, youths who have formed cooperatives with a view to tap-in the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). You will discover that as I am speaking right now, the process is almost coming to an end, if it has not already come to an end. Now, at what point is the ministry going to admit the youths who are still waiting for the CDF to be disbursed to qualify? You will discover that these youth this year, will not benefit from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) programme because their applications have not been considered due to the late disbursement of funds.

Mr Speaker, so, I want to ask the Ministry of Agriculture to create a window for these youths to ensure that they participate in this sector, which is very important. We also want to see a system, with a proper way of ensuring that actually these farmers are there in these cooperatives. What we have seen in the past is that there could be a cooperative but on the ground, it has only one person. It would even have names listed. So, we need head counts. If there is no head count, these cooperatives –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the report on your Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources.

Mr Speaker, agriculture is a very important economic activity in our country. It is one activity were even the poorest of the poor are able to participate. This is the reason the Government invests a lot of resources, to try and ensure that as a country, we are food secure and at the sometime, people are able to derive some economical activity from agriculture.

Mr Speaker, the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), it is a programme that has been going through a number of changes over a period of time, in an attempt to perfect this particular programme that is extended to small scale farmers.

Mr Speaker, corruption and malpractices were sighted to be among the major challenges that have been experienced in implementing this programme. I agree with the earlier speakers, who heighted these particular challenges that have been rampant in this particular sector.

Mr Speaker, I want to state that at our time, I served as the hon. Minister for Northern Province. This is one programme that we implemented to ensure that the people of the Northern Province benefited. When it was realised that it was very difficult to completely deal with issues of corruption and malpractices at those lower levels, we decided to do a pilot project on the E-voucher programme. After implementing the Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher) on a trial basis, it was later discovered that once this programme was rolled-out country wide, it would deal with issues of corruption, high cost of tendering and storage, among others.

Mr Speaker, this particular decision, to go the e-Voucher way, was trying to cure most of the challenges that have been highlighted in this report. However, even with the e-Voucher, other challenges come up. Now, if you look at the challenges that came with e-Voucher system, these were mainly on account of communication. This is because this particular system depended on the communication systems. Now, at the time we were implementing this policy, we had a programme we called, the multisectoral integrated programme, where the communication infrastructure needed to feed into other sectors like agriculture.

Mr Speaker, unfortunately, at the time, most of the areas had not yet received their communication towers and that is why this programme failed in most of these areas. When this programme failed, we migrated to what we called Direct Input Supply (DIS) system, which is not very different from the traditional FISP programme. This means that the challenges that were faced under FISP are also faced under this DIS system.

Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Agriculture to ensure that he relooks at the e-Voucher programme because this is a programme that will serve Government costs according to the report. This is an effect programme. This is a programme that will definitely give maximum benefit to the Government and indeed, to the farmers.

Mr Speaker, I am also happy to note that this report clears some of the accessions that were made earlier. We heard on the Floor of this House that certain areas were discriminated and that in certain areas, the quantum of support was lower in most cases, but this report actually clarifies that. What was happening is that when there was a 100 per cent rollout on the e-Voucher programme, this particular programme means that on your Electronic Card (e-Card), you have a fixed amount given by the Government. So, what had happened was that in areas where we had migrated to DISS, the people were getting the actual numbers of bags of fertiliser. For those who maintained the card because the amount was fixed, naturally, they got a lower number of bags of fertiliser.

Mr Speaker, what should have happened – I am saying this very seriously but unfortunately, I cannot see the hon. Minister who is support to take these notes. What should have happened at that time, observing that there were a reduced number of bags in cases where the cards were still maintained, they should have come up with a flexible programme that could respond to the prices changes. This means that as opposed to charging the cards with K2,100 as it originally was, there were supposed to charge it with a higher figure, so that it could give six or eight bags, as it were.

Mr Speaker, the point is that the report is very clear that the e-Voucher is better than the DIS system and the FISP programme. It is also evidence by the production this year. We have seen that with all the changes that were made, we have gone down in terms of the yield.  Why? It is because we are departing from programmes that are efficient and migrating to programmes that are actually meddled with other vices like corruption, malpractices, high storage costs and so on.

Mr Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture needs to go back to the drawing board. We need to do away with middle men, high transport costs and storage costs by going back to the e-Voucher, except that there are few adjustments that can be made to make it better so that it responds to fluctuations in terms of costs and other changes that may come alone the way, as opposed to doing away with the programme completely thereby, resulting in ...  

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mundubile: Mr Speaker, like I was saying before we adjourned briefly, the issue of the e-Voucher and the reduced quantities of fertiliser supplied to some farmers in some parts of the country was not on account of discrimination. Now that the report is out and from the explanations that we have offered, I hope that those of our hon. Colleagues that believed that some of our citizens and farmers were being discriminated against in the distribution of farming inputs will now put that argument to an end.

Sir, what had transpired was that when there was discontinuation of the e-Voucher programme in some parts of the country, other parts that were implementing this programme successfully remained with that programme. As a result of that and the increased prices of fertilisers, the quantities that beneficiaries were accessing reduced.

I, therefore, wish to ask the acting hon. Minister of Agriculture that we seriously consider the e-Voucher programme. If we are going to achieve diversification in the agriculture sector, we need to go the e-Voucher way. If we are going to do away with corruption and malpractices in the agriculture sector, we have to go the e-Voucher route. If we are going to save on transportation and storage costs and other challenges that have been faced in the agriculture sector, we have to go the e-Voucher way.

Mr Speaker, I think that from the report that we have read, the challenges that we have under the e-Voucher system are far less than those that are faced under traditional Farmer Input Supply Programmed (FISP) and the DISS. We have a connection between the Ministry of Agriculture and the Smart Zambia Institution. We know that they can come up with some software or flexible programme that will be able to respond to sudden changes in pricing and any other changes that may come thereby, continuing with this progressive idea. It is evident that if we go back to the DIS system, the old problems that we faced will continue. We know that this particular system under FISP has been a big drain on the Treasury. So to be able to give relief to our Treasury, let us seriously consider the e-Voucher programme.

Sir, I know that the acting hon. Minister of Agriculture is paying attention and I know that he is an implementer. He will be able to brief the substantive hon. Minister on our recommendations, so that they can be carried out. We expect to see an increase in the yield in the coming season, given the challenges that we have faced in the just ended season.

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I wish to support this report. I thank you.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, thank you so very kind for giving the good people of Lumezi an opportunity to give their thoughts on this report. As much as I intend to support this report, permit me to mention that as your Committee was doing its benchmarking in Malawi, it should have gone to Ukraine or Russia, where our fertiliser comes from. This Committee, at least, should have tried to go to Beira in Mozambique to do benchmarking because then, it would have known that there is no railway line from Beira in Eastern Province, where I come from.

Mr Speaker, this is June and as a matter of fact, the province that I come from, where Lumezi is, Eastern Province, we have reduced maize production by 25 per cent. I know that the hon. Minister of Agriculture has deliberately avoided being here for fear of facing the people of the Eastern Province. As a matter of fact, this is June, but we do not know which contractor will transport fertiliser this year in the Eastern Province.

Mr Speaker, today like never before, I will say something that is quite emotional. The report talks of corruption. The corruption that has been mentioned in this report singles out civil servants at district level. Your Committee should have gone a bit further to single out the contemporary bourgeois that are in this House that push for single-sourcing of fertiliser. Grand corruption has been ignored. The single-sourcing of fertiliser by this New Dawn Government has been ignored and then we single out peasant civil servants.

Mr Speaker, in your earlier ruling when I rose on a point of procedure, you made mention that when Her Honour the Vice-President is here, then business is not affected. I am putting it on record that there was a time in the previous session when I shared some information with her Honour the Vice-President. Today, I received a strange phone call of threats because her own secretary had information that we only shared the two of us, dealing with how corrupt some businessmen behaved previously.

Today, not yesterday, I received that phone call, Madam Vice-President, and I am disappointed and shocked that with a lot of respect we had for you, you chose to share information that only you and I shared on your seat just because someone wants to benefit from the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I want to guide the House that as we debate, we have to be very factual and ensure that we use appropriately statements as regards to the issue that is on the Floor of the House. So, that is just my guidance.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, why I have brought in this issue – I am not being malicious. Neither once nor twice, I have said it on the Floor of the House that it is not my nature to be malicious. The Vice-President knows what I am talking about and she knows her secretary who called someone linked to me –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Are you ready to render evidence on the Floor of the House?

Mr Munir Zulu: The Vice-President is here. She can defend herself if I am lying, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, I am saying on the accusations that you have made.

Mr Munir Zulu: There are no accusations. There is –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Are you able to substantiate them?

Mr Munir Zulu: Yes, I am.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Lay the evidence you have on the Floor of the House.

Mr Munir Zulu: My Vice-President is the evidence.

Interruptions

Mr Munir Zulu: I am laying her on the Table to rebut.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, we cannot talk corruption where –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I think –

Mr Munir Zulu: You are supposed to preside over our affairs and then you want us to engage you, when we are engaging the people on your right. You are here to preside over our affairs and not to engage us. You are raising points of order yourself when they are not raising points of order.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member –

Mr Munir Zulu: Who are we shielding?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member –

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, the last time I talked about the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), I was curtailed.  Today, I am being vindicated.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, when I am talking, you should not talk.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, at least my submission is made.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I stand to guide the House. Let us mind how we debate. If anyone is accusing whoever, and has evidence, it is better he or she puts it on the Floor of the House, other than engaging people that may not be able to defend themselves, like secretaries. I think that is what we should not do.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chienge an opportunity to add a voice to this very important report that is on the Table or Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, FISP stands for the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), but I believe most of the people think that when we talk about FISP, we are only referring to fertiliser. They are forgetting about the seed and other things that come under FISP.  Let me talk about a scenario of what is happening in Chienge.

Mr Speaker, in the last farming season which has just ended, the people of Chienge were sharing a 10kg bag of seed. A 10 kg bag of seed was shared amongst twelve people. Like my hon. Colleague who just finished debating stated, the issue of corruption should not only be dealt with amongst the politicians but also, within our society. We have cooperatives that have been formed but when they get farming inputs through FISP, they do not share those inputs amongst the members.  What these cooperatives do is to connive with civil servants. In Chienge, we had a civil servant by the name of Nyambe, who was caught red handed with 250 bags of groundnuts but up to now, nothing has been done.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, avoid debating people who cannot defend themselves.

Rev. Katuta: Mr Speaker, this person was apprehended but we do not know why he has been acquitted. Those groundnuts were found in his custody. Allow me to continue by saying that the people of Chienge have suffered a lot with regards to the issue of FISP. Mr Speaker, even the money that people used to pay during that time when they used to go the electronic way, has not been paid back to them. Up to now, the people of Lambwe Chomba have not got their money back. With regards the bags of fertiliser, my farmers keep calling me saying they are given bags which in my language, we call, aya sekemuka, meaning, bags that are not full. Now, what is really happening with FISP?

Mr Speaker, for me, I want to advise the New Dawn Government that maybe, it should come up with another solution that will help the people of Chienge. Alas, as we are talking, more satellites have been shutdown in Chienge and we still have maize that is marooned there. How are these farmers going to contribute their K400 in this farming season?

Mr Speaker, under this FISP which the Government is talking about, we saw things being rushed to the Southern Province. We saw the Zambia Army trucks taking farming inputs to the Southern Province when in Chienge, we have not seen such kind of help. Are we now in a vicious cycle? I just want to urge the House and the Executive that the people of Chienge are not happy with the way this FISP is being handled. Those technocrats in Chienge must be removed from there.

Mr Speaker, we want the Government to give us a new set of technocrats so that we can start afresh. We do not want technocrats like a person I mentioned earlier on the Floor of the House to come back. We want those who will respect the people of Chienge and not connive with cooperatives. The system should be helped by the ACC just like we have seen the ACC help in the recruitment of heath workers. In that recruitment, the ACC and the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) were involved. How about these commissions getting involved in FISP? Currently, you will find that for the farm inputs to leave the warehouse and taken to Chienge, it is another story.

Mr Speaker, I just want to emphasise that what is in the report is a true picture of what is happening in our country. On behalf of the people of Chienge, I want to urge the Government not to give the people of Chienge 10kg bags of seed to share among twelve people in small ibakuli. No, we do not want that in Chienge.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. 

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Mr Speaker, I owe you a debt of gratitude for allowing the people of Mpika to add their voice on this very important report. Let me also hasten to thank the Chairperson of your Committee and his team for having come up with a very precise report that speaks to the challenges surrounding the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP).

Mr Speaker, your Committee notes that stakeholders submitted that with the Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher) system, most agro-dealers did not have sufficient inputs at the time of need, and yet, some agro-dealers would proceed to redeem the cards. This is a situation that used to happen in the Southern Province, where some people claim that the previous Government took two bags of fertiliser when it is actually, the agro-dealers who would actually from our hardworking farmers. This issue of wanting to use this House as a platform for dividing this nation should come to an end. It is not auguring well. When we are preaching “One Zambia One Nation” it should actually be even in our deeds.

Mr Speaker, the report also notes the late delivery of farming inputs. I will give an example of Mpika were the D-compound fertiliser was received in April this year when the farmers needed that product as early as December last year.

Mr Speaker, again, I have noted today that this is when the Ministry of Agriculture has advertised for the procurement of fertiliser and this is in June. It should have advertised way back so that it cures that aspect of late delivery of farming inputs. In the past, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government would actually deliver inputs in May of every farming season.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: Even the current Government should go in that lane.

Ms Mulenga: Hammer!

Mr Kapyanga: They should deliver farming inputs as early as possible.

Mr Speaker, actually, the FISP is no longer the same. Currently, I am sure it is now being referred to as the Maize Input Support Programme because the Government has removed supply of legume seed from FISP. Groundnuts, beans and other legume seeds have been removed from FISP and that is a fact. I wish the hon. Minister was here to state that fact and tell the House why the Government has done that. I am sure that is why he has run away.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga:  Sir, your Committee also notes that there has been corruption, more especially on the part of the civil servants. That is where a list of ghost farmers exists. There are must ways and means of ensuring that the existence of ghost farmers is done away with.  Further, the e-Voucher system created many jobs for our people. Our youths were employed under the e-Voucher system and many of them took care of their families. With the abolition of the e-Voucher system, it has sent more than 3,000 to 4,000 youths onto the streets. So, we would like to appeal to this Government to ensure that it re-introduces the e-Voucher system which worked very well more especially in the Southern Province, although some agro-dealers would steal farming inputs.

Mr Speaker, let me also state that in the 2021-26 PF Manifesto, there was a proposal that the Government should set up a money lending institution for our farmers so that they could access loans that would enable them to buy agri equipment. We cannot continue singing the song of economic diversification from mining to the agriculture sector when we are depending on strenuous tools such as hoes. We need to ensure that our people and our small-scale farmers have access to loans that will enable them buy agri equipment so that they can also graduate from being called small-scale farmers to commercial farmers.

Sir, currently, the commercial farming category is dominated by white farmers because those are the only people who have access to loans. Our people do not have access to loans to enable them buy the agri equipment. Actually, this Government can peruse or go through our manifesto and pick that point and implement it. It will be to its advantage and the Zambian people will actually appreciate. We need to diversify from mining to agriculture. We have seen that the mining sector is just being enjoyed by foreign companies and foreigners’ jobs are being created in countries where they come from because here, we are giving them tax holiday. So, let us now largely depend on agriculture where our people will get involved.

Mr Speaker, the Government should also provide incentives which will attract our youths to venture into farming. Currently, our youths think that farmers should just be left to our parents. We should provide incentives such as land and others that will attract the youths to undertake farming.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, let me also state that it should not just end at FISP. When our people grown their crops and the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) buys their produce, let it be on exchange basis. If the FRA gets my maize, it should pay me right there as I deliver my maize unlike the way it was last year, where our farmers started sleeping at the banks before they could be paid. This time around, I am sure a bag of maize will be bought at K500 as it was promised. This time round, that K500 should be paid as I deliver my bag of maize.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Central Province (Mr Nanjuwa): Mr Speaker, first of all, I want to thank your Committee for presenting this important report on the Floor of the House.

Sir, your Committee has highlighted a number of issues on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Interruptions

Mr Nanjuwa: I am sorry, on the Food Input Support Programme (FISP).

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, FISP is a tool that was designed to improve the livelihood of our people such as the small-scale farmers in the rural areas, to empower and capacitate them so that they could be viable and be able to stand on their own. Under the management of the Patriotic Front (PF), FISP was a failure.

Interruptions

Mr Nanjuwa: Sir, the report of your Committee has highlighted massive corruption which we were able to see with our naked eyes. In this planting season, in Central Province, we had cases of suppliers who were procured by the PF, but could not even supply a single bag of fertiliser. We have children and parents in the rural areas who need to survive through FISP.

Amb. Kalimi: Twalakuzala!

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, the PF used the Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher) system to discriminate other provinces.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We cannot continue with this nonsense, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

The Second Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Please, order!

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, I hope that point of order is not on me. I hope he is not talking to me.

Mr Kapyanga: Even when you want to address something that people are ready to listen to, the manner in which you come out is very important.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, this hon. Minister is dividing the nation. This is a minister who should be there ensure that the unity of this nation is prevailed.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. UPND Member: Are you drunk?

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Chonya: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Ms Mulenga: Mulekeni umwaiche!

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker –

Interruptions

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Second Deputy Speaker: Order! Ok, there is a point of order by Hon. Fube.

Mr Fube: Namuchilamo naimwe. Lyonse ni regionalism.

Interruptions

Amb. Kalimi: Twalakuzala muno!

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker –

Mr Mundubile: No! No! You cannot. You are a minister.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Leader of the Opposition, order!

Mr Michelo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, I am raising a point of order in line with Standing Order No. 207(b) and (d), which is on the House being brought into contempt.

Sir, what brings this House into contempt is the manner we are conducting ourselves. We are coming from a one-month suspension and, somehow, some of these characteristics that are showing up – When you look at the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act and the Standing Orders, this regionalism that is being promoted –

People have called us thieves and everything else.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you have risen on the point of order.

Mr Fube: Yes, I am trying to build up to the point of order.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Yes, but you are debating your point of order. Just raise it.

Mr Fube: I want to emphasise on (d).

Sir, there is serious molestation in this Parliament. We feel that we are being threatened when we have been elected and all of us here are equal in terms of debate. So, when we come here, we are representing the people of Zambia apart from representing our constituencies. So, we should not be coming here and calculating how we should speak out and all that so that we can be called thieves or a discriminated against. Some of us are nationalists, and we are not going to go with this kind of behaviour that is being portrayed every time. We have been called thieves in this Parliament.

Mr Speaker, your office has counselled us, but that is the hon. Minister for Central Province who keeps promoting regionalism in a unified State. So, what are we going to be – because you say this is discriminated against –

Ms Mulenga: Yes!

Mr Fube: So, Mr Speaker, –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hold on.

Madam, you are in the Chamber, and we should always mind how we conduct ourselves.

Going forward, there will be no more points of order.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister for Central Province, you can continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Interruptions

Amb. Kalimi: Twalaya kanshi!

Hon. UPND Members: Hammer!

Interruptions

Mr Nanjuwa: Thank you, – Can you switch off your microphone, Leader of the Opposition in the House.

Mr Mundubile: Ya but debate like an hon. Minister.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: But you are responding to the things they were saying.

Mr Nanjuwa: Yes!

Interruptions

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, can I be protected.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Ah, hon. Member.

Interruptions

Mr Nanjuwa: Can I be protected from those people.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That conduct is very unbecoming.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, let us –

Interruptions

Mr Michelo: Mr Speaker, tell us if you have failed to manage this commotion by these useless people.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No! No! No!

Interruptions

Hon. PF Member: You cannot call us useless.

Interruptions

Mr Michelo: We cannot fail to deal with you.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Michelo: You criminals.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Michelo: F**ck you!  You cannot tell me to do that. What is your problem?

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member in black –

Mr Michelo: Come on!

Interruptions

Mr Michelo: No, what is your problem?

Interruptions

Hon. Member: You are very biased.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, mind what you are speaking.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister for Central Province, continue with your debate.

Hon. UPND Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, I am actually trying to respond to some of the accusations these people have been raising.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Mr Nanjuwa: If they get pained –

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Nanjuwa: Who is talking to me like that?

Interruptions

Hon. UPND Member: Hammer them!

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, what I was saying is that in the Central Province, districts like Mumbwa, Itezhi-tezhi, Shibuyunji, Chisamba and Chibombo, farmers under the Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher) system during the PF paid K400 contribution but they never received inputs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: They stole the money.

Mr Nanjuwa: A Government receiving money from a poor farmer then the farmer does not receive inputs, what is that?

Hon. UPND Members: Theft!

Mr Nanjuwa: Is that good governance?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Hon. UPND Member: Bukabolala!

Amb. Kalimi: Where is the evidence?

Mr Nanjuwa: Yes, come to Mumbwa tomorrow.

Amb. Kalimi: Lay the evidence on the Table.

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, the corruption that we witnessed when the PF lost power was that those so called suppliers in the Central Province were not able to supply the fertiliser. We had suppliers who would call that they were delivering fertiliser. A truck would go to Kabwe and even be registered there in the name of delivering fertiliser. We would hear a truck is in Serenje and fertiliser is delivered. Thereafter, that truck would disappear.  We are saying as New Dawn Government, Mr Speaker, that this time around, we do not want such kind of suppliers, ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nanjuwa: ... more especially in the Central Province. We do not need those. We want suppliers like the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) and other investors that will be producing fertiliser within the country. We also want companies that already have fertiliser in this country. That is why the issue of saying we are late to advertise does not arise because we want to get the fertiliser that is already in the country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nanjuwa: So, those cartels under the PF…

Interruptions

Mr Nanjuwa: … will be gone and will be arrested.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Amb. Kalimi: Alpha Commodities!

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, the process of procuring suppliers, distribution and delivering was all marred with corruption.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, even the beneficiaries of FISP, as highlighted in the Report, many of them were bogus. The PF was forming bogus co-operatives without people as a tool to win elections but they lost.

Mr Fube: How many times did you lose?

Mr Nanjuwa: I never lost an election.

Mr Fube: Ba UPND?

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, these are bogus cooperatives. We want to discourage farmers from receiving their inputs through co-operatives. We want farmers to receive –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Member: Hammer!

Continue hammering.

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, farmers should be able to receive their inputs individually than through a cooperative because that is how the Government has been losing these funds. Cooperatives without people were receiving fertiliser. Now, we want an individual farmer to go and get the inputs under FISP to control this corruption unlike during the PF, the bad Government.

So, these beneficiaries who are indicated here, Mr Speaker, it may not even be true that there are one million.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker

Mr Anakoka: On the hon. Minister?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, you can continue with your debate. Hon. Chilangwa resume your seat.

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, we are saying where it is possible, the New Dawn Government should procure and decentralise the procurement of these inputs according to provinces. If there are suppliers in the Western Province and they have the fertiliser, they should supply so that we cut these cartels and free FISP from corruption.

Mr Speaker, I want to thank your Committee and you, for allowing me to say these few words.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

After the Provincial Minister has spoken, I will allow Her Honour the Vice-President to respond and to give the Government position.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to make just a few remarks because I do realise that the real response to this report will come through the Action-Taken-Report.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members walked out of the Chamber

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! Masholi!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not want to go to the issue of observing the behaviour of the House. I think it is important that this House remains dignified.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: The behaviour of your hon. Members, Mr Speaker, should be in an expected manner.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: It cannot be allowed that we should be shouting in this House.

Mr Mbangweta: Imagine!

The Vice-President: I think we should be stronger than we pretend to be because when people raise issues, others have the right to respond …

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: … on the Floor of the House. Mr Speaker, we sit here with a lot of accusations. We are told in this House that we have failed, including the issue of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). People on your left are articulating issues very well now that they are not in charge. They were in charge for a long time.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the difficulties we are seeing, they must have seen them. Now, if we stand to say that the corruption they are talking about did not occur during the time of our Government, that is not an offence.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: The corruption is noted in the report.

Mr Mwiimbu: And they have acknowledged.

The Vice-President: Under that, who was in charge?

Hon. Government Members: PF!

The Vice-President: So, if we say the PF was corrupt, should that be taken as an offence?

Hon. UPND Members: No!

The Vice-President: Then the offence should be taken against the report and not the Executive here. We are responding to that. I think it has been agreed here that there was – I know they have walked out, some of them, but I think they are listening.

Hon. UPND Members: Correct!

The Vice-President: We are responding. They have also agreed and noted that there was corruption. So, who was corrupt? If the system is allowed by the Government to be corrupt, you cannot stand and say no. Just admit where you were wrong. This Government has come in to find solutions to the issues particularly, those that have become very hot today. This Report includes issues of the environment and lands but everybody is thinking about FISP because of its importance.

Mr Speaker, let me give some background of FISP. Some of us were part of the formulation of this programme. In fact, we were looking at different words in trying to find how to identify the beneficiaries of FISP. We used to talk about the vulnerable but viable. Who is vulnerable? Those were the terms we used during that time in trying to structure FISP. 

Mr Speaker, we should be looking at, “we admit there was corruption; what is the way out?” This Government for now, for this year, has gone to the Direct Input Supply (DIS) system.  For this year, the Government has gone that way. I have read in the report under recommendations that we cannot go on in perpetuity with a programme that does not win people. We have to restructure it properly.

 Mr Speaker, for now, we have decided that everybody gets on our principle of equity. Today, people cannot start explaining the failures of the Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher), when they continued with it with all the discriminatory applications. Now, when we mention that word, they become so jittery like something is very wrong.

Mr Speaker, we will call a spade a spade. With the humility that we have on this side, we just want people to know that what is wrong is wrong. We will continue with this programme. This year, we are going with DIS system. We will not go any other way because we want every Zambian to equitably benefit from this. We are working on how to try and reduce the corrupt issues that are in the system, some of them built in, and some of them just known. We will start by ensuring that the beneficiaries are the right ones.

Mr Speaker, our hon. Colleagues on your left are aware that there were seven cooperatives that constituted only a husband, wife, son, and niece. Those were cooperatives. That meant that the real beneficiaries were not even registered. We are aware that those who were not suppose to be members or beneficiaries of FISP became members and they got the fertiliser. We are saying that this time around, we are going to do a re-registration of the beneficiaries. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we may have to use biometrics so that everybody will be known, if he is a member. We will know if Hon. Mwiimbu is a member even when we know he cannot be.  If he is a member, his name will not re-appear in another cooperative. That is what we are going to do to ensure the rightful beneficiaries are registered.

Mr Speaker, let me just say a bit about something. You know, hon. Colleagues continue repeating things. I have heard them shouting “single sourcing.” Firstly, single sourcing is there and it exists in the procurement. It is there. That is why it has a name. There is a moment for single sourcing but what is being referred to was not even done in that manner. I think I have tried in this House to explain what had happen. Our colleagues had promised Zambians that everybody was going to have fertiliser before August.

Hon. PF Member: You are lying.

The Vice-President: That was said, and the Zambians are listening. It was said. We came into power at the end of August, on 24^thAugust, 2021. When we entered office, we found that fertiliser was fully paid for to some companies.

Mr Mwiimbu: There was no delivery.

The Vice-President: Tell me what that was, when there was no fertiliser. Tell me if that is not corruption. 

Mr Mwiimbu: It is corruption.

The Vice-President: Tell me what it is. How do you pay in advance for something that is not supplied? Hon. Colleagues, some payments were made in full as early as April.

Mr Mwiimbu: And in brothers!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, to date, some fertiliser has not been delivered fully. Tell me which way we should go. In the meantime, people do not have fertiliser. There was an area where they were giving two bags against six bags. Due to this, we decided that everybody goes on DIS. Therefore, we had to find fertiliser in November. There are moments that call for that. Who do they contract? Normally, they would say it is a person who has been dealing in the same commodity. For them to say we picked that through single sourcing is very unfortunate and Zambians must not listen to that. That was November and we wanted fertiliser. Out of those that were contracted, I think they were five, only two had delivered. When we asked one of them, he said he could not supply the entire fertiliser.  The other company said it was ready to supply and that was from our own plant in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the other company that had delivered was also ready to supply. Tell me what is wrong with that. I am not using law; this is logic. Therefore, if you tell the person who has already delivered to deliver again, he will move at a very high speed. Do you think the cost will be the same?

Mr Mwiimbu: No!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we had to find someone to deliver fertiliser in November for people to use. This is how caring this Government was. We had to run and twist the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s Budget to ensure that there was fertiliser in other areas that were not catered for. However, it is true that some of the people who are saying there is no fertiliser because it was not delivered. These are suppliers they had contracted and paid money. Today, they want to call us bad. We will follow up these issues.

Mr Speaker, we have generally taken note of all the good recommendations by your Committee and the Government will come up with the Action Taken Report to indicate how it is going to respond to these issues.

Mr Speaker, somebody, my son there was debating me. I think that should not be allowed. Unfortunately, it should not be allowed. I do not think we should allow it. If there was a private conversation, it should have remained a private conversation. In privacy, people should not pretend to say things they maybe told many people. Secondly, did you tell me you were coming to tell me a secret? Should I keep a secret of a wrong transaction? So then why should I look like I am corrupt in this House? No! Never! I feel that we are suppose to build relationship.

Mr Speaker, indeed, if somebody is aggrieved in this House, they must call their colleague and say what really has happened because at the end of the day, they may cause embarrassment. I am sorry today my name was mentioned on the Floor. I cannot defend myself, but yes, I had a conversation with the hon. Member. However, I do not know what secret things we talked about or indeed, any plan. There was no plan. It was a past event he referred to. So I do not know.

Mr Speaker, it has not been a good House today. I think that hon. Members must know that people are holding them accountable. They went to stand in their constituencies. They knew they would be in Opposition and they cannot just jump and become the ruling party.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Vice-President: I am inviting you seriously my dear. I call you my son and you are my son. Do not bring things to the Floor that are not for the Floor. It is not correct, Sir. It is not correct. You cannot come to embarrass people like that. So people are wondering what I have done and who I have colluded with to do some corrupt act. It is not correct. I do not want to go into that debate, he is still my son.

Hon. Member: Suspend him for a month.

Laughter

The Vice-President: If I had the authority, I would do that but I do not have. We will have to look at that. It is wrong to bring issues on the Floor that are not part of the report. One would think it is close to issues of land, agriculture or whatever but it is not even there.

Hon. Member: He is a prodigal son.

The Vice-President: Thank you, sonny. I know he has heard. We will talk and find out –

Mr Speaker, this report is good and we have to look at it and see how we can respond to it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Bweengwa, wind up debate.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Michelo: Mr Speaker, let me thank the hon. Members who have contributed to the Report on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources. I also want to at least mention one of those hon. Members who debated positively and these are: The Minister for Central Province, Hon. Nanjuwa, Hon. Chonya, Hon. Sing’ombe and Hon. Munir Zulu.

Mr Michelo: Mr Speaker, finally, allow me to thank Her Honour the Vice-President for her splendid debate on this report.

Sir, let me also thank the entire House and the people of Zambia for listening. We are trying to help this country. This country was really engulfed in massive corruption in the recent past. This time around, in trying to highlight or bring out issues of corruption, we have looked at what really happened under the previous regime. The previous regime was only specialised in corruption, and when we try to this bring up –

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Michelo: ... those issues, some people feel very bad. However, we are trying to help them so that we can reconstruct this country.

Mr Speaker, let me thank you once more.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to rise on a point of order.

Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order –

Sorry, I also have a condition. I have tried to pretend, but I just have to just breathe a bit. Please, allow me.

Rev. Katuta took off her face mask momentarily.

Rev. Katuta: Sir, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65(1)(a) and (b), which stipulates that:

       “(1) A member who is debating shall –

               (a)  confine his or her debate to the subject under discussion; and

               (b)  ensure that the information he or she provides to the HOuse is factual and verifiable."

Mr Speaker, I listened to my fellow hon. Member of Parliament, who is elected just like me. The only difference is that he is now the hon. Minister for Central Province.

Mr Speaker, this point of order is on the hon. Minister for Central Province, whom I have always held in very high esteem and who has been my hon. Colleague for quite some time.

Mr Speaker, when we start talking about regionalism, we divide this nation further.

Mr Nanjuwa: You divided it already!

Rev.  Katuta: What I am trying to say is that Chienge and Kaputa –

The one who was on the Floor of the House is my mother. If I may declare interest, Sir, Kaputa and Chienge suffered this discrimination that is being talked about. The people of Chienge paid for the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) when Hon. Fube was the District Commissioner (DC) for Kaputa. However, the farmers have not got their money back to date, and I am still pushing for them to get it back. So, it is not fair to make things look like only a certain region; the Southern, North-Western and Western provinces were discriminated. Chienge has also suffered a lot, and it is in this House where I have been standing. However, I am not the first Member of Parliament to experience what Chienge has been experiencing. So, I feel that the hon. Minister was wrong to say that only the region where he comes from was discriminated.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, a point of order, you raise it –

What procedure or rule has been breached?

Rev. Katuta. My point is that he was not factual. There are places like Chienge and Kaputa that also experienced what he called “discrimination”. So, was he in order to mislead the nation by saying that only the side where the United Party for National Development (UPND) was popular was discriminated?

Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling. It is on record in the Hansard that I have been complaining about Chienge. The late hon. Member of Parliament for Kaputa, Mr Ng’onga, and the DC we had then also complained about the same thing. So, why would he say that only the three provinces were discriminated?

Hon. Government Members: Add it!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you have adequately debated your point of order.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank very much, kind Mr Speaker, for permitting the good people of Lumezi to take you to Standing Order No. 64.

Sir, it gladdens my heart and the good people of Lumezi that Her Honour the Vice-President mentioned that we had a conversation. In my earlier submission, I mentioned that I was making a sorrowful submission. Had I been allowed then to say what it was, I do not think that Her Honour the Vice-President was going to be as emotionally-charged as she became.

If I was being malicious, Mr Speaker –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member ...

Mr Mwene: Sit down!

Mr Munir Zulu: Hon. Mwene, I know, behind the back –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: ... for Lumezi, let me guide you further. As hon. Members of this House, at no time should we debate ourselves. So, what you are trying to do is to debate yourself, more or less. Let us make progress.

Question put and agreed to

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(Consideration resumed)

CONSTRUCTION OF SHIMUMBI MINI-HOSPITAL IN LUWINGU

322. Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

      (a)        when the construction of Shimumbi Mini Hospital in Luwingu District will commence;

      (b)        what the cause of the delay in commencing the project is;

      (c)        what the cost of the project is; and

      (d)        what the time frame for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Mr Speaker –

Mr Katakwe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Eng. Milupi: Mr Speaker, we are at a loss because when questions are asked, it is for the purpose of answering the people who have asked the question. In their absence, I think normal procedure is that those questions lapse.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Especially by walking out. The questioner is not here.

Mr Katakwe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Where is the hon. Member for Lubansenshi? He is out? Then the question falls off.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker:  A point of order is raised.

Mr Katakwe: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 207, which is on contempt of the House.

Sir, Part 1 of Standing Order No. 207 states:

      “(1)  Contempt of the House refers to an act, omission or conduct, which obstructs or impedes either the

             House or members or officer in the discharge of their duties.

       (2)  In addition to instances under Section nineteen of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act,

            the following, may constitute contempt of the House:

            (a)      a speech or writing reflecting negatively on the House or members;

            (b)      a reflection on the character or impartiality of the Speaker in the discharge of the Speaker's

                     duties;

            (c)     a publication of a false or distorted report on the proceedings of the House;

            (d)     molestation of members on account of their debate or conduct in the House or a committee; and

            (e)      obstructing a member while he or she is performing his or her duties or while on their way to or

                      from the House.

    (3)  Any person who commits contempt of the House shall be dealt with in accordance with the provisions of

        the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act.”

Mr Speaker, the behaviour of our colleagues who just walked out while shouting on top of their voices; Hon. Kapyanga, Member of Parliament for Mpika, and other hon. Members, surely, puts this House into disrepute and jeopardises its dignity and decorum, especially since the deliberations of this House are being watched all over the world.

Sir, I seek your serious ruling on whether the hon. Members who just walked out did not commit contempt of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member, for your observation.

I reserve my ruling so that I thoroughly study this matter before I can render my ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

REHABILITATION OF THE MPIKA/KOPA ROAD

334. Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

      (a)   when rehabilitation of the Mpika/Kopa Road in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency will commence;

              and

      (b)   what the cause of the delay in commencing the project is.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker gave the Floor to Mr Fube to continue with his follow-up question but he was not in the House.

Hon. Government Members: He has run away.

Mr Sing’ombe: We are done!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Any other hon. Member who wishes to speak?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, everything is clear.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: The President!

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I wish to have a cup of tea with Hon. Jack Mwiimbu.

Laughter

______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1807 hours until 0900 hours on Friday 10^thJune, 2022.

 

____________