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Wednesday, 1st December, 2021
Wednesday, 1st December, 2021
The House met at 1430 hours
[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
_______
MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE
BUDGET PROCESS
Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I would like to sincerely thank you for according me this opportunity to raise this matter of urgency and public importance, which is based on Standing Order 34.
Madam Speaker, if the National Budget, which we are considering on the Floor of the House, is not passed by this Parliament, it is going to be catastrophic. This matter is very urgent because right now, we are considering the Budget, which is a national matter.
Madam Speaker, Article 205 of the Republican Constitution states that:
“The following shall be prescribed:
- the budget preparation process”
This is the process we are undergoing, which should be prescribed. What then prescribes this process? The National Planning and Budgeting Act No. 1 of 2020 prescribes this process of processing the National Budget.
Madam Speaker, Clause 23 of this Act states that:
“The Minister shall lay before the National Assembly the National Development Plan for approval.”
Further, Clause 42 states as follows:
“Subject to the Constitution, the national budget shall operationalise the implementation of the National Development Plan.”
Madam Speaker, the Budget process begun with the address by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and now we have this Yellow Book. At the end of this process, your Parliament is expected to enact an Appropriation Act in respect of this Budget. However, that Act of Parliament which will result from this process is based on the draft Eighth National Development Plan, which has not been brought to your House for approval.
Madam Speaker, if we go ahead and enact the Appropriation Act, and that Eighth National Development Plan is brought to this House and rejected, is that Executive there telling us that it will bring the Act for amendment? Is it what we are being told?
Madam Speaker, your House, this Assembly, is under threat. It is under threat because it is now going to do what is unthinkable, which is producing a law based on a draft. This draft has not been brought before you for consideration and approval.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, why is your House being looked at in this fashion? Is this the reason we are hearing that your hon. Members here on this side of the House should stop talking? Is this why we are being told to be ashamed and stop talking, so that we do not see these things and so that we do not bring these things to your attention?
Hon. PF Members: Hammer!
Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, your House deserves respect by everybody because your hon. Members; both on your left and right, were brought here courtesy of the will of the Zambian people.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kafwaya: Whether they were nominated, they were nominated by a President who has been elected. Whether they were elected, they were elected by people. So, your House deserves respect.
Madam Speaker, I seek your further direction on the matter.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Thank you so much for that matter that has been brought before the House. We all know the process that is supposed to be followed. We are having some issues here and there because some of our hon. Members do not seem to understand the process for the Budget Meeting.
I was reliably informed that the plan will be submitted to the House, which is underway. However, because I am seeing a lot of confusion here and there, I ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to maybe, come to the House and help guide the hon. Members, so that they understand the process and so that we are moving at the same level as the whole House. So, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will come at a later date to guide the House.
I thank you so much.
REMOVAL OF FORMER DISTRICT COMMISSIONERS FROM PAYROLL
Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of urgent public importance according to Standing Order 134. Before I mention the matter, I want to draw your attention to Article 2 of the Constitution, on how every individual is supposed to defend the Constitution. I also want to bring your attention to Part VII of the Constitution, Articles 90, 91 and 92. This is a matter which is also qualified by Article 189 of the Constitution, and if you will allow me to quote, I will do so. It states as follows:
“
- A pension benefit shall be paid promptly and regularly.
- Where a pension benefit is not paid on a person’s last working day, that person shall stop work but the person’s name shall be retained on the payroll, until payment of the pension benefit based on the last salary received by that person while on the payroll.”
Madam Speaker, I have received a lot of concern as your hon. Member from the District Commissioners (DCs), Permanent Secretaries (PS) and many others who were fired on 10th November, 2021, but unfortunately, after they were fired – my matter of urgent and public importance is directed at the President, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning as well as the hon. Minister of Justice. After they were fired, just two weeks ago, they were removed from the payroll. However, if we follow Article 189, it is reversed because it says that they shall not be removed from the payroll until they are paid –
Interruptions
Mr Fube: Can that one disturbing me stop.
Now, what is concerning is what has been done after the former DCs and other workers were fired by the President, who has the right according to the Constitution to hire and fire, and I have no argument with that one. I only have an argument with an issue whereby our former workers have been removed from the payroll before they are paid their dues. I think that is a serious constitutional breach because when I quoted from Article 2, that is where the citizens fall. When I quoted from Article 90, 91 up to 93, the President there has sworn to protect the Constitution and me who has sworn to protect the Constitution, I fall under Article 2 and the workers fall under Article 189.
Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance on this very serious matter, especially that as we speak, this situation is affecting families which were psychologically prepared and waiting for their packages. They were supposed to be paid salaries, but they were not paid a salary, meaning they are starving. We are talking about 116 families scattered throughout the country, who are further connected to extended families because other people also depend on them as breadwinners. So, I think the main matter of urgency is the breach of Article 189 by the Government by removing the former workers from the payroll. I seek your guidance.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, matters of urgent public importan are so urgent and require immediate attention by the Government. However, in this matter that you have raised, you clearly indicated that it happened some time back, that is two weeks ago.
I note that it is an important matter and I advise you, hon. Member, to use Standing Order 76 and raise an urgent question because it does not qualify under matter of urgent public importance at this time.
I thank you.
INDENI REFINERY STATUS
Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Energy.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please proceed.
Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, this matter of urgent public importance is directed at the hon. Minister of Energy concerning Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited, which has been placed on care and maintenance. The hon. Minister of Energy announced to the nation that Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited has been put on care and maintenance. This implies that the workers will be declared redundant or put on half salary. I do not know whether this salary will be coming from the Government or Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited management.
Madam Speaker, Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited is not a standalone institution. This refinery has other subsidiary companies which depend on it. For example, there is the Ndola Energy Company Limited, which contributes more than 100 MW of power to the national grid. There is also the Tanzania-Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) pipeline.
Madam Speaker, I am aware that the previous Government under the able leadership of His Excellency, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, had strategic partners who were supposed to invest as equity partners in Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited to save that company and to also save the workers at the refinery. The records are there and these companies came through the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC).
Madam Speaker, we are asking the hon. Minister of Energy to give a comprehensive report on Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited and to confirm whether the decision which was made was a policy decision or a business decision. If it was a policy decision, when did that consultative meeting take place? If it was a business decision, we want to know when the Government received a comprehensive business report from Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited.
Madam Speaker, having sat down with engineers from Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited, they are saying that the Government did not give an opportunity to other avenues to rescue Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited. So, we want the hon. Minister of Energy to give a detailed report to this House on Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you for that matter of urgent public importance. What I can say is that I have been reading here and there about Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited. We do not know what is happening. However, hon. Member, from your submission, it was almost like a debate. You raised a number of issues that you want the hon. Minister to come and clarify on the Floor of this House. Such an opportunity would fit to be in form of a question. The matter is urgent, but there are so many issues that you are looking at. Is it possible for the hon. Member for Kabushi to make use of Standing Order 76, so that the hon. Minister is given all the issues that you want him to bring to the House?
I thank you.
Mr J. Chibuye: On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: We will have the last matter of urgent public importance.
ROAN BASIN BLASTING
Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to rise on a matter of urgent public importance premised on Standing Order 134.
Madam Speaker, the people of Roan Constituency are living in fear, knowing very well that the New Dawn Government has laid a foundation whereby it wants to increase copper production from 800,000 metric tonnes to 3 million metric tonnes. We, the people of Roan Constituency, are living in fear with the mode of mining activities that has been instituted by our investors, Luanshya Copper Mines.
Madam Speaker, Luanshya Copper Mines has embarked on an open pit type of mining, in some case which is so close to residences. My house is less than 400m away from the Roan Basin Open Pit Mine and mining is usually done by blasting.
Madam Speaker, allow me to read a notice that they usually place when they are blasting and this is coming from15 MCC Africa Construction and Trade Limited. It states as follows:
“BLASTING NOTIFICATION
You are hereby notified that blasting will take place at Roan Basin on the date and time indicated.
AREA: Roan basin
A blasting siren will sound for approximately 5 minutes before the blast. At this time all must evacuate your premises to a safe distance that will be indicated by the responsible person. Then the siren will sound again once the blast is complete and declared safe.
NOTE:
All personnel must be removed to a safe distance of 400 m
All equipment must be removed to a safe distance of at least 400m.
You are all requested to stay out of the blasting area at all times and obey instructions given by the blasting person until the blasting area has been completed.”
Madam Speaker, in as much as we want to invite foreign direct investment and in as much as a country we yearn for such, the lives of the people in the constituency, including my own life and my children are in fear, where we are directed to evacuate from our homes when the siren sounds to go and gather at a distance.
Madam Speaker, just two week ago, when blasting was done, one house had it ceiling fold and a Light-Emitting Diode (LED) Television (TV) fell down from its holding position on the wall. The responsible people, the mines, had no option but to replace and fit this TV to the owner.
Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development as to whether he is aware of this and are we going to continue to be evacuated each time the siren sounds with children on our backs and dogs to go and stand at a safe distance?
Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance and allow me to place these documents on the Table.
Mr J. Chibuye laid the papers on the Table.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Roan, indeed, that is a serious matter that might need attention. However, this is not a case of recent occurrence. The open pit mines have not just started now. Therefore, this matter is not admissible under urgent public importance. I advise you in the way you had started. You had come up with some questions to the hon. Minister. So, I advise you to raise a question or questions for the hon. Minister to attend to that problem that is happening in your constituency.
Interruptions
Mr Mwiimbu: On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs and National Security, I do not know who is going to answer that question.
Interruptions
Mr Mwiimbu: Which one? I have not asked.
Interruptions
Madam first Deputy Speaker: I will give you chance to go ahead. You can go ahead, hon. Minister.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we have some order! Order, please!
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I do not know whether your ruling still stands that I cannot raise an issue. If it has been allowed, I want to thank you most sincerely for that privilege. I would like to raise a matter of urgent national importance pursuant to Standing Order 134. You are aware that yesterday –
Mr Chitotela: On a point of procedure, Madam.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Maybe let me give some guidance.
Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I am raising a point of procedure not a point of order.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, just before you come in, I know it looks somehow– I do not know the right word to use – that a hon. Minister is rising to raise a matter of urgent public importance. However, because in our Standing Orders it does not state that an hon. Minister cannot or shall not, it is the more reason I said he can go ahead. Maybe we should change the Standing Orders because the matters that we are referring to are supposed to be attended to by hon. Minister. Our Standing Orders, however, do not bar the hon. Ministers to rise on a matter of urgent public importance.
Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I totally agree with you on the admissibility of a matter of urgent public importance, in Standing Order 135. It talks about the function of a ministry and the Government.
Madam Speaker, we can start from Standing Order 134 to 135, which is on admissibility. Maybe my brother and good friend could have used a Backbencher within the United Party for National Development (UPND) because it is talking about the function of the Government and he is Government.
Mr Lusambo: Maybe he has resigned.
Laughter
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, I am a bit reluctant to allow that matter of urgent public importance.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: I do not know if somebody else can handle that matter from the Backbench.
_______
QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER
COMPLETION OF MICHAEL CHILUFYA SATA GIRLS SCHOOL IN ISOKA
99. Ms Nakaponda (Isoka) asked Minister of Education:
- when the construction of the Michael Chilufya Sata Girls Boarding School in Isoka Parliamentary Constituency will be completed;
- what the cause of the delay in completing the project is;
- what the cost of the outstanding works on the project is; and
- what the timeframe for the completion of the project is.
The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (on behalf of (the Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima)): Madam Speaker, the construction of Michael Chilufya Sata Girls Boarding school in Isoka Parliamentary Constituency which commenced in 2013 has reached 55 per cent and will be completed in 2022,subject to availability of funds.
Madam Speaker, the project has been delayed, obviously, because of erratic funding.
Madam Speaker, the cost of the outstanding works is K31,470,243.95.
Madam Speaker, the timeframe for completing the project is within a period of twelve months, obviously subject to availability of funds.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order, but today I am compelled because I believe that we are not supposed to be dealing with illegalities in this House.
Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order on the Leader of Government Business in the House. If you look at the Order Paper that we have today and compare it with what is in the Yellow Book, you are going to see discrepancies there. The first one is that when we refer to Head 10 as is on the Order Paper today, it is showing that it is the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. If I check in this book, which is called the Yellow Book, Head 10 is Zambia Police Service Commission. What has been listed on this Order Paper as Head 14 under Zambia Police Service Commission is the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.
Madam Speaker, are we in order as a House to continue deliberating and performing our duties with wrong prescriptions and a wrong Order Paper?
Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. The people who prepare the Order Paper follow what is in the Yellow Book. Our Order Paper is correct.
Mr Mutale: How?
Hon. Member: It is the Yellow Book that is not.
Laughter
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I have counter-checked. What we have in this book appears on our Order Paper.
Hon. Opposition Members: No!
Madam First Deputy Speaker: If you can check in this book, it says that Head 10 is Zambia Police Service Commission.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
In that case, I am going to reserve my ruling so that we move ahead.
The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu may proceed.
Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development indicated in his response to the hon. Member for Isoka that the Michael Chilufya Sata Girls Secondary School, which is 95 per cent will be completed in 2022.
Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I know that you ruled and guided. I do not want to argue on the ruling pertaining to issues of urgent nature. Standing Order No. 134 is very clear; it does not preclude hon. Members of the Executive from raising an issue, but I will not argue on that.
Madam Speaker, I want to raise a very serious procedural point of order on my hon. Colleagues on your left, and in particular, the Leader of the Opposition and hon. Members of the Patriotic Front (PF).
Madam Speaker, the issue I am raising is very serious and it hinges on the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia and the preparation of the Budget of the republic. Yesterday, I heard the Leader of the Opposition dancing on the Floor and on that side citing the illegalities pertaining to the Vote we were discussing yesterday.
Today, the hon. Member for Lunte raised a similar matter on the Floor of this House.
Madam Speaker, the issue I am raising is very serious and you are aware that if a member of the Executive deliberately misleads the House and makes the House and the nation incur an expense that has been incurred illegally, that member of the Executive should be surcharged.
Madam Speaker, I have the Yellow Book for 2021, which was approved by this House and was prepared by the Patriotic Front (PF) Executive. The PF Executive are alleging that it was an illegality and unconstitutional. They made this House ...
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Mwiimbu: ... pass a Budget based on an illegality, according to them.
Madam Speaker, according to the Yellow Book presented to this House by the PF Government, the mandate of State House at page 1, according to them was anchored on Articles 33 and 34 of the Constitution of Zambia Act No.18 of 1996. In that particular year, 2021, – (pointing at the Opposition hon. Members)
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Minister, mind the finger. You may continue.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, in 2021, (pointing at the Opposition using a political party symbol) the authority to bring the budget was by the PF Government and –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, now that looks like a symbol.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: It is a hand, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, they came to this House and presented the budget for State House based on Articles 33 and 18 of the Constitution of 1996, which Constitution they are now claiming is an illegality. Are they in order to stand up and raise an issue of illegality, based on their own illegality, which they presented to this House? They want to clean their own mess, which they created on the Floor of the House.
Madam Speaker, the law says he who comes to equity, must come with clean hands. Their hands are soiled. This is their Budget and the hon. Member for Lunte talked about the Appropriation Act that was passed. Is he telling us that the House approved a wrong Appropriation Bill based on this wrong Act? Are they in order to come to this House and mislead the nation? I will lay this document indicating 1996 Act.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Mwiimbu laid the paper on the Table.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!
Yesterday, two points of orders were raised and the ruling was reserved. The hon. Member who raised one point of order adequately debated ...
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Madam First Deputy Speaker: ... it. Further, the consideration of the Head in question was postponed so that the Executive would look into that. So, this point of order plus the other points of orders that were raised yesterday are all related and we will wait for the ruling. When the Vote comes up on the Floor for consideration, it will be polished. Therefore, hon. Minister, that point of order was already raised. Let us wait for the ruling.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lusambo walked to the Table, got the Yellow Book and gave it to Hon. Mwiimbu.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Kabushi, can you, please, resume your seat. Let us maintain decorum in the House. We cannot be moving up and down disturbing other hon. Members of Parliament. We only move when it is very necessary to do so.
May the hon. Member for Shiwang'andu continue.
Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, before I was destructed by that point of order which was not premised on any Standing Order, but an attempt by the Executive to respond to the concerns genuinely raised yesterday, I was about to ask the hon. Minister responsible for infrastructure a follow-up question.
Madam Speaker, in response to the question posed by the hon. Member for Isoka regarding the completion of Michael Chilufya Sata Girls Boarding School, he stated that the school is at 95 per cent and will be completed in 2022, which was a very good response, before he additionally said that that is subject to the funds being available. We are in the budget meeting where we are considering the appropriation of resources to be spent in 2022. Can the hon. Minister confirm whether this school has been captured and factored in the Budget we are considering for approval?
Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Shiwang'andu for the question. First of all, points of correction. The first correction is that the hon. Member referred to me as the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, but at this moment, I am the Acting Minister of Education, and that is why I am answering this question which was directed to the hon. Minister of Education.
Madam Speaker, the second correction is he said that I said that the school is at 95 per cent, but I actually said that it is at 55 per cent. In terms of the substance of his question, I said that subject to the availability of funds and he tied that to the 2022 Budget. We are debating the Budget which will result in an Appropriation Bill, and I think it is cautionary as a responsible Government to understand that the things we bring to this House are not brought here for rubberstamp. We brought the Budget and it is being debated, and we hope it will be approved. So, until such a time it is approved, we have to be cautionary and that is why I said that subject to the availability of funds. The point I am making is that when the Budget is approved, these issues will be attended to.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, for the sake of progress, I would have said I pass because you have already ruled. However, indeed, there is what is known as Presidency and when the precedence is set –
Hon. Opposition Members: Presidency!
Mr Mutelo: I am Lozi and if you are not Lozi, maintain your space.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Can we allow the hon. Member to raise his point of order.
Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, it is true that in 2016, the Constitution was amended, meaning the Budgets we have been approving in this House starting from 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 and even the 2021 Budget, like it has already been said – yesterday, the Leader of the Opposition decided to say that he is holier than thou. No wonder it is written somewhere that if anyone of you is without sin, let him be the first one to throw a stone, but those who knew who they were did not throw a stone.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Mutelo: The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security laid the 2021 Budget on the Table and I have both the 2022 and 2021 Budgets, quoting the same thing which the Leader of the Opposition pretended to tell the public. If you want, you can check Standing Order 65(b). So, do not worry because I know those things, but for the sake of progress, I will end here.
Laughter
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member.
Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me to pose a question to the Acting hon. Minister of Education following his response on the construction of the Michael Chilufya Sata Girls Boarding School. Does the Government plan to get K31 million from the loan that has been acquired from the World Bank towards the construction of schools, to complete the Michael Chilufya Sata Girls Boarding School, which is under construction?
Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kamfinsa for the question. I think when Ministers stand up and answer questions, there is what is called ‘Government Assurances.’ If I say that this school will be completed – and we have even more details on this school – that should be taken as an assurance that it will be completed. As regards to where the specific funds will come from, that was not part of the question. I think the question is specific to when this school will be completed. So, whether it is from the Budget or the loan that the hon. Member referred to, it is of no consequence. The hon. Member wanted to know what is going to happen to this project.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Acting Minister of Education for the response. Taking advantage that he is also the de facto Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, he will answer my question and will not refer to the previous Government.
Madam Speaker, the Michael Chilufya Sata Girls Boarding School in Isoka is named after the late President. Does this Government intend to upgrade his name and look for a bigger structure like an airport or the Mongu/Kalabo Bridge and rename it to Michael Chilufya Sata?
Laughter
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Acting hon. Minister of Education, do you have an answer because that issue is not related to the question on the Floor.
Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I think sometimes it is important to understand that when you have a baby in the house, you may not sleep very well because sometimes it makes noise.
Laughter
Eng. Milupi: So, my young brother maybe suffering from the same thing.
Madam Speaker, he talked about upgrading the statue of Michael Chilufya Sata, but how does the Government upgrade his statue? The man already had his statue and was President of this country. In terms of facilities being named after him, I think there are several that are named after him and as we go on, I am sure that –
Hon. Government Members: Like the toll gate.
Eng. Milupi: Yes. For example, the toll gate between Ndola and Kitwe is named after him and we have no problem recognising that he was President of this country. Where need arises, these matters will be looked at and we may look at the former Mayors of Lusaka and so on and so forth.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Laughter
Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, does the New Dawn Government intend to go round the whole country to find out exactly how many schools the Patriotic Front (PF) Government did not complete so that it can tell us the number of schools that ought to be worked on as a country and not going by constituency?
Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Namwala for the question.
Madam Speaker, we can gather that information. We know how many schools were embarked upon and we have various completion percentages on all of them. If that information is required, the hon. Minister can come back later and provide it.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I thank the acting hon. Minister of Education for his responses.
Madam Speaker, he has indicated clearly in his response that money might not be in next year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure. Considering that this secondary school in Isoka is meant for girls, what other measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that within next year, this school is completed and the establishment is set so that our girls can start accessing education at this school?
Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, first of all, I did not indicate, as the hon. Member for Chama South seems to indicate, that the school is not in the Budget for 2022. I did not say that. It is not part of the question.
Madam Speaker, we fully understand that provision of education to the girl child is important. In terms of this particular question, the Ministry of Education, under infrastructure, has adopted a phased approach method of completing this particular project by targeting selected structures to facilitate partial opening of the school. This is what is happening currently. It has identified buildings; two 1 x 3 classroom blocks, five staff houses, one ablution block and one sick bay.
Madam Speaker, when the Government says that this will be completed within 2022, it is an assurance that we are making on the Floor of this House because we have looked at all the details and factors that require to be looked at, and we are satisfied that this will happen. We have the scope of works, details of the contractors that are on site, the contract sums and so on and so forth. So, Madam Speaker, that assurance has been made.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, the secondary school in question was being constructed in honour and memory of the founding father of the Patriotic Front (PF). Unfortunately, for over eight years, they failed to complete this structure, which means that they had no regard to honour their founding father.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubozha: Is the hon. Minister considering bringing in other cooperating partners, such as the corporate world, to complete this school so that services can be provided to the constituency in question, and the former president can be honoured to shame our hon. Colleagues who failed to honour their founding father.
Hon. PF Members: Question!
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chifubu, ‘to shame our hon. Colleagues’ is unparliamentary. Can you withdraw that phrase?
Mr Lubozha: Madam Speaker, I am very much obliged. I withdraw that one and replace it with ‘to help them honour their founding father.’
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.
Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chifubu. Indeed, he is right that the construction of this school commenced in 2013 and, as I said, has reached only 55 per cent. We are making a commitment that we will complete it. That is not to help them honour their President. Michael Chilufya Sata was President for the whole country. If the Government felt that the school be named after him, I think that is in the interest of the whole country. So, we have no problem completing it and honouring his memory.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, I thank the acting hon. Minister of Education. My worry as a parent is that these same girls are squatting at Isoka Boys Secondary School. In this era of COVID-19, we are worried because they are not maintaining social distance, and also, there might be an increase in the number of pregnancies for the girls. Can the hon. Minister of Education not find somewhere where he can get money so that he finishes constructing the same school?
Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Isoka for the follow-up question. I must say that she is concerned about this subject because even outside this Chamber, I think she has discussed this matter with me previously, and I am sure with other hon. Ministers. We are in December, and today is the first of December, I believe. We are working very hard to have this Budget approved despite the antics of the hon. Member for Pambashe and his colleagues.
Laughter
Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, look at him, surely.
Laughter
Eng. Milupi: We will pass this Budget, and 1st January, 2022, is the beginning of the implementation of the new Budget. Continue to liaise with us in the Ministry of Education to make sure that this school is completed. Your concern, hon. Member for Isoka, about the girls now cohabiting at Isoka Boys Secondary School is well understood. That is why, sometimes, we wonder why it took the period from 2013 to now for the construction of the school be completed, but we shall complete the process.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, I sympathise with the hon. Member of Parliament for Isoka.
Madam Speaker, Hon. Syakalima, oh, sorry, the Acting hon. Minister of Education has mentioned that the school is very important and that he will do everything possible to complete it. Can he kindly outline to Zambians the methodology or the plan that he has put across to ensure that he organises the money and deliver this very important piece of construction.
Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chitambo who sometimes asks very pertinent questions…
Laughter
Eng. Milupi: … and other times, I am not so sure.
Laughter
Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, when he is asking about methodology –
Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Ah! Sit down.
Mr Mutale resumed his seat.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, you can continue.
Eng. Milupi: The hon. Member, who is having a good time right now, is asking me to outline the methodology of how we are going to get money to complete this particular important project. Here is the methodology: the methodology is for all of us in this House to quickly pass this Budget.
Laughter
Eng. Milupi: That is the methodology. When we have done it, we will have resources to complete this project.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
______
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
VOTE 10 – (Zambia Police Service Commission – K13,590,010)
The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to present the 2022 Budget Estimates for the Zambia Police Service Commission.
MANDATE
Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Police Service Commission is a constitutional and statutory body mandated to provide human resource functions to the Zambia Police Service under the Constitution (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016, established under Article 226 and the Service Commissions Act No. 10 of 2016.
MISSION STATEMENT
Mr Chairperson, the work of the commission is guided by the following mission statement: “To manage human resource for a sustainable crime free society.”
FUNCTIONS OF THE COMMISSION
Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Police Service Commission is charged with the responsibility of human resource management in the Zambia Police Service as provided for in the Constitution (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016 and the Service Commissions Act No. 10 of 2016.
REVIEW OF PAST PERFORMANCE 2021
Mr Chairperson, during the period under review, the Zambia Police Service Commission was funded the sum of K9,072,681 to execute a number of programmes, guided by its functions. In its continued effort to maintain effective and efficient service delivery, the commission undertook the following programmes in the first two quarters of 2021:
Processing of Cases
The Zambia Police Service Commission processed a total number of 974 cases.
Sensitisation and Human Resource Reforms
The commission conducted a sensitisation programme in Luapula Province and Copperbelt Province, alongside the processing of cases.
CHALLENGES
Mr Chairperson, the following were some of the challenges faced during the year under review:
- a lack of computerised human resource management system at the commission, which continues to pose a challenge in the maintenance, referencing and retrieval of personnel information for decision making. It is hoped that in the subsequent years to come, the Smart Centre Zambia, e-Government Division, will greatly assist the commission to computerise all personnel records for easy retrieval and decision making. It is hoped that the commission will receive support regarding the same.
- inadequate funding; and
- inadequate transport.
KEY ISSUES TO BE ADDRESSED IN 2022
Mr Chairperson, the key issues to be addressed in 2022 are as follows:
Human Resource Management
The resources under this programme will go towards the implementation of the new organisational structure and personal emoluments;
Governance and Standards
The commission will oversee the establishment of human resource management committees in the Police Service. These committees are expected to implement and provide guidance in the management of human resource across the Police Service and the Immigration Department. The commission will carry out quality assurance and inspections on how the committees are adhering to the principles and value based system of human resource management in the departments; and
Management and Support Services
The commission intends to enhance the overall provision of strategic and policy direction in order to facilitate the efficient and effective operation of the institution. Further, the commission intends to build capacity of its officers in the secretariat.
Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, with the refocusing of the commission’s mandate from a highly transactional role to a strategic monitoring role, the commission will require additional funding to support effective performance. To this end, I hereby submit the proposed 2022 Budget Estimates of Expenditure for the commission amounting to K13,590,010.
I now seek the support of this august House to approve the 2022 Budget Estimates for the Zambia Police Service Commission.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to debate Vote 10.
Mr Chairperson, even as I stand here, I must admit that I am very much constrained to debate the Vote. We are debating the much awaited Yellow Book which has raised a lot of issues, and which issues have not been ruled on. However, we will reluctantly go ahead and debate the much awaited Yellow Book.
Mr Chairperson, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for that elaborate statement she has given us on the on the Police Service Commission. I want to emphasise that we need a lot of sensitisation because very few people know about the Police Service Commission.
Mr Chairperson, many people who have a lot of complaints about our Zambia Police Service do not know where to go. They only end up at a police post or station. So, we support the idea of sensitisation. We support that this commission should be adequately funded. We also support that it should have enough transport.
Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about the irregularities we have seen so far with the current Government. We are here to approve money for the Zambia Police Service Commission although we can see that the services of the Zambia Police Service Commission are already hijacked. It is not too long ago when there was an advert in the print media that all those police officers who were fired by the previous Government should apply and that their applications should be addressed to the Secretary to the Cabinet. Here we are approving money to the Zambia Police Service Commission, whose functions have been hijacked by the Secretary to the Cabinet.
Mr Chairperson, allow me, as I debate Head 10, to give a stern warning to the Secretary to the Cabinet not to –
Hon. Government Members: Who are you?
Mr Twasa: I am lawmaker.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Twasa: Mr Chairperson, I want to give a stern warning to the Secretary to the Cabinet not to hijack the functions of the Zambia Police Service Commission. Head 10 – Zambia Police Service Commission – mandate says:
“Constitute offices in the Zambia Police Service Commission as well as to appoint, confirm, promote and hear appeals from officers of the Zambia Police Service and perform such other functions as prescribed according to the Constitution (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016.”
Mr Chairperson, these are the functions of the Zambia Police Service Commission, but we have seen in the newspaper that the officers who were allegedly fired on political grounds were told to apply to the Secretary to the Cabinet yet here, we want to approve money to the Zambia Police Service Commission. Must we then approve this money to the Secretary to the Cabinet who has taken over the functions of the Zambia Police Commission? It is a big question. We, therefore, expect that things to be done professionally by the Government or the party in power.
Mr Chairperson, we have seen officers who have been running around. We know them and we have seen some of them running around the Cabinet Office, talking about making applications and so on and we have been wondering then, who should carry out these functions and who is going to hear their cases when they appeal.
Madam Speaker, as we approve this Budget, Head 10 should strictly be given back its functions and not have them hijacked like we have seen in so many Government sectors. This, we hope will be taken seriously.
Madam Speaker, at this point in time,...
Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Twasa: ... I wish to submit.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am at sea. When I look at you now seated and –
Hon. PF Members: Was the point of order granted?
The Deputy Chairperson: I allowed the point of order.
Mr Nkombo: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Sir, I am at sea because when I look at you now in your position and when I last saw you in our own interaction, you were clearly male.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the immediate past debater, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasenengwa, continuously called you ‘Madam Speaker’...
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: … and I mean continuously and wilfully knowing that you are male. That was a light moment, Mr Chairperson.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, let me come to my point of order. The immediate past debater does understand what this country has gone through in the last five years, in terms of the arbitrary dismissal of people in the Civil Service by his party; the Patriotic Front (PF) and I mean widespread like a broad spectrum clearance of an ailment. Many people were cleared off employment citing a draconian provision of the law; national interest.
Mr Chairperson, it is also a fact that commissions that are established by law and in this particular case, the Zambia Police Service Commission and Local Government Service Commission as examples, were filled with PF cadres, …
Mr Kampyongo: Question!
Mr Nkombo: … and they fired people every day. Now, we are in the process of cleaning up or transitioning where the commissions themselves must be cleaned up. We made a pronouncement as the Government that all those who feel they were victimised and thrown out of employed by the PF on account of frivolous and vexatious reasons must make themselves known by the only existing engine of the Government being the Cabinet Office.
Mr Chairperson, is he, therefore, in order to continue debating in the manner that he continued and saying that the Cabinet has hijacked the job of the service commissions without citing who among the police officers he thinks have been running up and down having been employed? As far as I remember, no one has been employed by the Government in the Zambia Police Service Commission, but true to the word, we are gathering names of all those whom the PF fired on account of their paranoia, fear of their own citizens.
I seek your ruling on this matter, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
I reserve the ruling on this matter for another day.
Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing the people of Chitambo to add a voice to the debate on this Head. I am happy that the Order Paper has been corrected now.
Mr Chairperson, the people of Chitambo support this Head with just a few comments. This is a very important commission for it superintends on the police who are charged with the internal security of this country. It is the wish and will of the people of Chitambo that when the Chairperson of this commission is being appointed, as it is a promise and we have noted and heard from the President himself that he shall ensure that he depoliticises most of these positions. We hope he will do what he said although we have noted the opposite in the past.
Mr Chairperson, another very important issue is that when this commission is reformulated under a new Chairperson and as it looks at the affairs of the police, which is to appoint, confirm promote and hear appeals, we ask it to be very fair and not to fall in the trap of political lines. This is because we are not going to sort out anything, the people who being victimised now, for being members of the Patriotic Front (PF) are all Zambians who also deserve to work under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security.
Mr Chairperson, we have also noted that our hon. Colleagues trivialised matters pertaining to the Zambia Police Service. It is our prayer that the new Zambia Police Service Commission Chairperson, who shall come in, will fairly instruct the police to look at criminal activities, which are happening in Lusaka because criminality in Lusaka has escalated. For example, just nearby here, on the road to Chibolya, people are being stripped of their bags and the attacks are actually happening during daytime. However, when people bring these matters to this House, the Executive chooses to trivialise them and say criminality or criminal levels are at the same level as last year, which is a very wrong perception. Not until a calamity happens, will our hon. Colleagues sit up.
Mr Chairperson, I am aware that Her Honour the Vice-President mentioned that even the allocation to this very important commission is not sufficient. We, therefore, ask the commission to work within the parameters of the monies that it has been allocated looking at what the country is going through right now and seeing that we are anticipating the fourth wave of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19). So, it is our wish that as the commission executes its duties, those duties should fall within the parameters of the monies so far allocated.
Mr Chairperson, another very important issue to look at is that the commission is also in charge of instilling principles and values in our police officers, which is a very important catalyst to good governance. Therefore, we anticipate that as the commission spearheads and looks at matters to deal with principles and values, it will ensure that our police officers are from time to time trained and acquainted with good values to change our society and communities. This is a very important aspect on the part of the police.
Mr Chairperson, last but not the least, we anticipate that the police under the Zambia Police Service Commission will not be waiting to get instructions from politicians to act on matters. We have seen that of late, police are also acting on instructions from us the politicians. We would want to see a Zambia Police Service Commission that shall instil professionalism in the police officers for them to operate professionally.
I submit, Sir.
Mr Kambita (Zambezi East) Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to debate Head 10 – Zambia Police Service Commission.
Mr Chairperson, from the outset, let me appreciate Her Honour the Vice-President for the policy statement that came with clarity, outlining the mandate of the Zambia Police Service Commission, and clearly showing us what it is meant to achieve for the people of Zambia.
Mr Chairperson, it is very clear from the policy statement that this is a function that is put in place to operate as a human resource of the Zambia Police Service. Being a human resource function, it will endeavour to attract, recruit and develop the human resource required to police this country.
Mr Chairperson, I would be failing in my duties if I did not debate the performance of the Zambia Police Service Commission in the previous regime when our hon. Colleagues on your left hand side presided over the affairs of this country. As rightly put in the point of order raised by the hon. Minster of Local Government and Rural Development, there was real chaos and people decided at will whom to fire even those who did the right thing.
Mr Chairperson, it is in public domain that we experienced a period, in which I would arguably say the highest number of staff that could have faced transfers and dismissals were in the Zambia Police Service, apart from other Government ministries. The reason is very simply. Any of those people who did not take political instructions from these men and women on your left hand side were either retired in national interest or instantly fired without benefits. The records are all over to prove and there are many people out there grappling with poverty and suffering because of the bad decisions made by these people. We have a Budget which we are supposed to approve, …
Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Hon. Member: He is telling the truth!
Mr Kapyanga: Mr Chairperson, thank you so much for according the humble people of Mpika Central an opportunity to raise a point of order against the hon. Member for Zambezi East. This point of order is premised on Standing Order 65, which reads as follows:
“A member who is debating shall –
- confine his or her debate to the subject under discussion; and
- ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.”
Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member is collectively indicating that all hon. Members here have been in Government before and participated in the wanton, imaginary actually, dismissing of police officers. I, for one have just been in this House for four months. I have never been in Government before and I know here we sit with Independent hon. Members of Parliament, as well as hon. Members of the Executive like the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development. Is the hon. Member in order to debate like he is trying to divide this House? I seek your serious ruling, Sir.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The hon. Member debating will take account of whatever you have said Mr – what is your name again?
Laughter
Mr Kapyanga: Mr Chairperson, I am Hon. Francis Robert Kapyanga, Member of Parliament for Mpika Constituency.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member debating will take into account the point you have raised.
Mr Kambita: Mr Chairperson, one of the Members who used to be in the Opposition but is now is in the Government was almost shot by a police officer at a filling station. The officer was drunk and had an AK47. That police officer was promoted by no other than the people sitted on your left hand side. So I may not generalise –
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member –
Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: I have ruled on that point already. You should desist from commenting –
Mr Kambita: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your counsel. I do not want to take much of the time of the House to try and justify which people did the firing.
Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Kambita: The point I am trying to make is trying to justify that Budget which we are now debating –
Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, let us make progress.
Mr Chitotela resumed his seat.
Mr Kambita: Mr Chairperson, I am trying to justify the purpose of that Budget. In my preamble, I am sure you observed that I was trying to qualify the policy statement which focused on this institution as one mandated to look at the human resource of the police. It is this human resource that will improve the quality of policing in this country. Therefore, it has a serious mandate to ensure that it attracts, recruits, develops and continues training to ensure that the quality of police officers that are in place are not Patriotic Front (PF) cadres or the like.
Sir, I cannot go forward to talk about how this commission should operate without me citing the previous or past performance of this commission. In one word, it was almost a moribund institution that was abused by the politicians and that is the reason we have this backlog of people who are yet to be brought back into Government so that they take back their positions –
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, you are diverting from the discussion on the Floor.
Mr Kambita: Mr Chairperson, at the risk of –
The Deputy Chairperson: You are supposed to debate the commission, not the police.
Mr Kambita: The commission, Mr Chairperson, recruits policemen, therefore, we cannot avoid talking about the subjects of what the commission is mandated to do.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kambita: I am trying to qualify because these are the human resource who the service commission is supposed to bring.
Mr Chairperson, in fact, in their mandate, they will not just recruit these policemen, they need to develop them. This is their mandate so we are debating what they are supposed to be doing other than what they are doing.
Sir, I want to qualify this by saying we expect a service commission that will attract credible people who will not just take political instructions and dent the police service. Unfortunately, I cannot avoid mentioning the police service as well because it is the commission that recruits the members who are in the police service. I am just making a comparison.
Mr Chairperson, Her Honour the Vice-President has clearly given that policy statement giving us the mandate of this service commission, as in, a commission that is responsible for the human resource part of the police in question. Therefore, we have laid bare how that commission performed during their time. At this time, we are beginning by, first of all, recalling those that these men had fired so that they can get back their jobs. We will re-train them to continue working in a better way. Therefore, I support that Budget because it is intended for a good purpose under a decent Government other than what we experienced yesteryear.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang'andu): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to make some brief comments on the Motion moved by Her Honour the Vice-President.
Sir, I want to start by saying that our colleagues on the right must realise that they are now in charge of Government affairs and when they are debating here, they must debate from an informed position and ensure that those who are listening know that they are being governed by responsible citizens.
Ms Lungu: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: Our colleagues must appreciate that we did our part and it is their turn to do their part.
Mr Chairperson, I heard one point of order in which a Member of Cabinet was talking about people who were fired. As I speak today, there are public servants who have been sent out of their jobs in national interest ...
Mr Chitotela: Today! We even have letters.
Mr Kampyongo: ... even yesterday. So, to try and pretend that it was only happening in the past and it is not happening now is being economical with the truth. This is happening and a number of senior officers who were parted away with are very well known
The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Kampyongo, let us avoid diverting from the debate.
Mr Nkombo: We are learning from the best!
Mr Kampyongo: We are debating matters that are arising from the Floor –
The Deputy Chairperson: No, we are debating Head 10. Let us stick to that.
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, let me flow with my debate I do not want to – the Police Service Commission, as we have heard, is responsible for human resource management, and not recruitment, for both the Zambia Police Service and the Zambia Department of Immigration. As you recall, it used to be the Police and Prisons Service Commission before the new Constitution. This institution should be the backbone of these two intuitions, the Zambia Police Service and the Zambia Department of Immigration. They are responsible for ensuring that corporate culture is inculcated in these institutions. They are also responsible for transfers, secondment, regrading, separating, confirming, attaching and promoting of eligible officers.
Sir, what you have seen of late is a source of concern. Some of the promotions and transfers that have happened make you wonder whether this service commission had a role. The transferring of officers and promotions come with a cost. Therefore, this institution must be allowed to interact with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning before it undertakes some of these exercises. If someone is promoted, it means that the notch in terms of personal emoluments changes. You cannot just wake up and start promoting people.
Mr Chairperson, this institution must be the institution to inform Her Honour the Vice-President and the President because they are the Commander and Deputy Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. So, they play a role in elevating a certain notch of officers in these institutions. They cannot know who is who at their level, so this institution is very critical. They must have a database and I am happy that they are putting money aside to computerise them because then they can give them accurate information on who is who in terms of the officers that are available to undertake certain assignments.
Mr Chairperson, this is the intuition which makes the Government allow it to operate by avoiding nepotism. Naturally, human beings can be nepotistic in nature, in the absence of such institutions. So, these are institutions that are very critical.
Interjection
Mr Kampyongo: We speak the truth. You can either ignore but you know what I am talking about.
Mr Chairperson, this institution must be supported and capacitated to make sure that all these officers work well, especially the Zambia Police Service which has a lot of work that needs to be done. We need officers to be subjected to in services training programmes which will capacitate them in order for them to perform their duties in line with changing times. Crime trends change and therefore, you need officers that can move with time.
Mr Chairperson, we have seen promotions being done and reversed. Yes, the Command has a role to play as well in getting officers promoted. However, they are provided for, on how far they can go and which ranks they can promote, for example, in a case of the Inspector General of Police. It is the same with the Director General for the Zambia Department of Immigration. However, the rest must be dealt with by this Police Services Commission. If you have issues with the commission itself, sort it out and make it more capacitated in order for it to provide the services.
Mr Chairperson, anyone who is fired or removed from the service without procedure is allowed to go to the courts of law. So, there is no one who can sit and say fire this one or that one. I do not think there is any such – Those who are thinking that used to happen in the past are misinformed. That is why as the Government you should be able to debate matters from the point of fact other than using innuendos that cannot be verified on the Floor of this august House.
Mr Chairperson, this is an institution which will ensure the observance of the code of ethics in the services. Like I have always said, behind those uniforms of our men and women are human beings and they must be managed.
Mr Chairperson, I support this vote and request that the Government ensures that these professional intuitions are allowed to do their work and are allowed to inform you competently without looking at someone’s face. Nowadays, people peddle many innuendos in order to be recognised, either for promotion or transfers or so many things. However, it is important that we use these intuitions in order for us to make informed decisions.
I thank you, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Andeleki will be the last speaker and then the Vice-President can wind up debate.
Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for allowing the people of Katombola to add their voice on this very impotent vote. This vote is very dear to my heart, being a former police officer of senior rank and having worked in the Ministry of Home Affairs at directorate level.
Mr Chairperson, I want to begin by thanking Her Honour the Vice-President for the elaborate speech which she has given in support of the mandate for the Police Service Commission.
Mr Chairperson, I will go straight to the point to save time. The people of Katombola will support this vote because this is a very important institution in the promotion of good governance, the rule of law and respect for human rights.
Mr Chairperson, my point of emphasis on discipline in the police services. I want to emphasise that from the observation that I am making from this angle, the discipline levels of the police services have deteriorated very seriously. It is the mandate of this commission to ensure that it presides over a professional police service. It is in these times that we have seen police officers behaving below the standard of a trained police officer and yet this is a product that it presides over as a service commission. From the experience I have garnered from the police, I think those standards are far below that which is acceptable in a democratic state. I challenge the services commission to up the game in the area of discipline. Officers, can drive in the opposite lane for no apparent reason, no number plate, you cannot even tell whether they are police officer, whether they are trained officers or thieves, you cannot even tell who is who.
Mr Chairperson, I think it is very important in a democratic state that the standards for the police service, the product that the services commission presides over, must be put clear for the safety of our people including the international travellers who just get shocked when they see people with big guns on the road, without number plates and dressed like common criminals. On the areas of discipline, I want to emphasise that as the commission is set up, it must ensure that the standard of discipline of the police officers is taken to the highest level, taking regard of the rule of law and respect for human rights. I also want to emphasise that police examination and retraining will be necessary and this is within the mandate of the service commission.
Mr Chairperson, the levels of conduct of police officers: the drunken state, moving with guns, without head dress, in half combat makes it difficult for one to even tell whether this is a police officer. This should not be accepted in country like ours. The introduction of police examination and retaining is a very important aspect in the development jurisprudences and agenda in the police services, patronage and political inclination of police officers. It is only this time that we have seen that the levels of the police, the product that is produced by the commission has gone down.Where police officers patronise politicians to seek promotion, transfers and favours so that they can go and work at a particular place of choice, this never happened the years before.
Mr Chairperson, I served under theMovement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government as a police officer. I was trained under the police reform programme and all the education I hold in my head today is from the police service and I owe them appreciation as I stand here. Promotion must be based on merit. It must be based on distinguished service by a police officer.
Mr Chairperson, there are police officers who have served for several years but they have never been recognised. This is simply because they are either professional or they are not patronising persons who wilt positions of influence and power. I want to urge the services commissions as we approve its budget line that it must work out programmes and agendas that will ensure that it rises above board and bring about a police service that will serve everybody regardless of party affiliation and all other factors.
Mr Chairperson, the lack of discipline has very severe effects. The Government has been paying colossal sums of money owing to the lack of discipline by the police officers. The extra judicial detentions are costing the Government a lot of money. For example, the detention of 112 days of persons that were alleged to have burnt city market, one of the cases that I have presided over. The Government is going to be coughing millions of kwacha, extra judicial detention of 112 days with no charge and without appearing before a court of law. That is the effect of the lack of discipline which costs the Government colossal sums of money.
Sir, the detention of certain people that are un-liked by those in power has been a drain on the treasury. I urge the commission as it takes up its mandate to ensure that it does its job diligently, taking into consideration that they are employed to serve all of us. This is because we have our friends who are on your left and also require the protection that the people on your right will deserve. We do not want to see a police who will exercise its powers with impunity without investigating any case by just locking up people and later it turns out that the arrest was premature, costing a lot from the treasury.
Mr Chairperson, I support this Vote and I assure you that the people of Katombola will support the rule of law, good governance, and progressive institutions that will protect the people.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind up debate. In winding up debate, let me start by thanking the hon. Members who have unanimously supported the budget for the Zambia Police Service Commission.
Mr Chairperson, there are different understandings of what the commission is, but maybe we need to go back to the statement I made. The Zambia Police Service Commission’s mandate has been clearly put and it includes discipline and appointments. The commission basically deals with issues to do with not recruitment per se but appointments. Recruitment is under the Inspector General of Police. That is the way the commission works. Generally, the conduct of officers and discipline is under the commission. That means the conduct of police officers is also looked at by the commission.
Mr Chairperson, the commission is not a complaints body per se for the public; it deals with internal matters. I heard one hon. Member talk of the people having nowhere to go. You do not go to the commission to complain about the conduct of the police. However, internally, the commission has a duty. I have heard this very seriously. At the end of the day, the commission is the one that disciplines officers and, therefore, it should enforce the disciplinary code of the police.
Mr Chairperson, there are also levels even in appointments. Not every officer who is recruited today will be directly disciplined by the commission. In fact, there are almost three levels. The Inspector General recruits, then, the commission looks at the appointments through the Assistant Superintendents. Currently, the provincial commissioners are appointed by the President. So, there is a lot of work that we need to look at and harmonise.
Mr Chairperson, let me also address the issue of professionalism. Particularly, the last debater totally appreciates the issues that we need to look at. We need to look at the police conduct and behaviour. It is very important that we do so. The police have misbehaved so much. Who do you really look to? For example, if a police officer who is drunk goes round with a gun and points it at people and he is not disciplined, the perception that is created is that the commission is condoning that. If such a person is promoted, it shows that the commission is condoning that. If the commission is not condoning that, then, we agree that there is an invisible hand or probably there is political interference because this is known.
Mr Chairperson, what is beautiful about today’s debate is that we all agree that we need professionalism in the police service, and it is the commission that should bring that. The perception we have today of the people who have been fired who have applied to the Secretary General according to the circular that was issued, has a lot to do with political interference. We may say that we did not do this, but there was a lot of misbehaviour. Like people have said, some people were transferred for acting professionally.
Mr Chairperson, we have to be careful. That is why when I speak, I have to be heard. Those no longer in the offices will not have an opportunity to misbehave again. So, we who are here should always learn from the wrong that was done. There was interference in the police commission. Why did they fire some people on political grounds? You may agree with this or you may not, but this is what we saw. Therefore, it becomes difficult to appeal to the same commission because it was too big, hon. Members of this august House.
Mr Chairperson, I still do not understand why some people were transferred or fired in national interest. The hon. Member talked about people being fired in national interest. How do you fire a person in national interest? Maybe, the language has changed today. My young brother, Chitotela, maybe the language has changed. What I know is that national interest is simply a transfer for the better. You cannot have a person go home in national interest. That is why they would still get a salary and two or three people were on the same position because national interest is not firing a person. It is not supposed to be like that. It should be in public interest, and if it was in public interest, you were supposed to prove an offence. There is a lot that we need to look at. I am sure the former hon. Minister of Home Affairs – Oh, it is time.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The Vice-President: Thank you, Sir.
I really appreciate the things that have been brought to light. Let us behave better because that side failed in this area.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Vote 10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 36 – (Zambia Correctional Service Commission – K5,401,913)
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to present the 2022 Budget Estimates for the Zambia Correctional Service Commission.
Mandate
Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Correctional Service Commission is a statutory body established under Article 225 of the Constitution (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016, and is mandated to provide human resource functions to the Zambia Correctional Service.
Functions of the Zambia Correctional Service Commission
Mr Chairperson, the functions of the Zambia Correctional Service Commission are as provided for in the Constitution (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016 and the Service Commission Act No. 10 of 2016.
Mission Statement
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was presenting the policy statement on the Zambia Correctional Service Commission.
Mission Statement
Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Correctional Service Commission was operationalised in January 2021.The commission is currently developing its strategic plan for the period 2022 to 2026 and the mission statement is yet to be formulated.
Review of Past Performance-2021
Mr Chairperson, during the period under review, the Zambia Correctional Service Commission processed 1,434 cases.
Challenges
Mr Chairperson, the following were some of the challenges faced during the year under review:
- the lack of computerised human resource management system at the commission which continues to pose a challenge in the maintenance, referencing and retrieval of personnel information for decision making. It is hoped that in the subsequent years to come, the Smart Zambia (E-Government Division) will greatly assist the commission to computerise all personnel records for easy retrieval and decision making. It is hoped that the commission will receive support regarding the same;
- inadequate funding; and
- inadequate transport.
Key Issues to be Addressed
Human Resource Management
Mr Chairperson, the resources under this programme will go towards the implementation of the new organisational structure and personnel emoluments.
Governance and Standards
Mr Chairperson, the commission will oversee the establishment of human resource management committees in the correctional service following the enactment of the Service Commission Act No. 10 of 2016.
Quality Control and Inspections
Mr Chairperson, the commission will carry out quality assurance and inspections on how the committees are adhering to the principles and value based system of human resource management in the departments.
Management and Support Services
Mr Chairperson, the funds will be channelled towards building capacity of officers under the secretariat.
Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, with the refocusing of the commission’s mandate from a highly transactional role to a strategic monitoring role, the commission will require additional funding to support effective performance. To this end, I hereby submit the proposed 2022 Budget Estimates of Expenditure for the commission amounting to K5,401,913 only.
Mr Chairperson, I, now seek support of this august House to approve the 2022 Budget Estimates for the Zambia Correctional Service Commission in order to implement the much needed human resource reforms.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for that elaborate policy statement highlighting the mandate of the commission we are currently debating.
Mr Chairperson, I note that there is an increment of 38.4 per cent from the 2021 Budget, which was K3.9 million, but is now K5.4 million. I appreciate that this increment has been made to promote corporate governance especially that the commission’s role is mainly to promote corporate governance within the Zambia Correctional Service, and among other things, handle different matters of human capacity at the management level. The human capacity that is supposed to be built, is supposed to give room for proper deliverables. Generally, when there is an increment, we always try to get better results.
Mr Chairperson, having laid that back ground, I would like to bring your attention to page 390 of the Yellow Book, under governance and standards, where there is an increment of almost 857 per cent, that is from K212,600 last year to K1,822,094 in 2022. That allocation is supposed to promote a particular corporate culture, but there is a mismatch. On page 391, Table 2, in the 2021 Budget, there was an allocation of K200,000, but in the current Budget –
Mr Chairperson, Her Honour the Vice-President rightly envisaged that there is a need for more resources. The programme for leadership and governance has not been allocated anything whereas K1.8 million has been allocated to the programme that I aforementioned. This mismatch is possibly a duplication of some sort. Qualifying it further, on page 390, on Table 5, sub-programme 2002 – Discipline, Complaints and Appeals, also has no budget. This mismatch disturbs the machinery of corporate governance, especially that some matters that are supposed to be tackled by the commission will be of appeal and complex nature, and largely so, some of them will be of disciplinary nature. So, I wish that mismatch will be corrected.
Mr Chairperson, allow me to also address the culture that has been noticed. We know for sure that there is a practice where all sorts of risks – it is said that when the only tool you have in your hand is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Sir, let me borrow the approach of one hon. Member in this House. We find that there are lists flying around in all Government institutions; this time, about who should be retired; who should be removed as they are seen as belonging to the Patriotic Front (PF), and this is in the public domain.
Hon. Government Member: Question!
Mr Fube: I pray that this particular practice will not be a cancer that will spread to this very good commission that we hope that one day, in combination with this leadership, can give birth to what we left. It is corporate governance that gives deliverables. At least, we can boast of the Mwembeshi Correctional Facility which has a capacity of 3,000 inmates; that, comes out of a leadership that is demonstrated and tested.
Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Fube: I know that a matter such as I have referred to may disturb the management of this human resource, especially, that this commission looks after the human capital which tackles or addresses the end user at the tail of the justice system. If police have made arrests and all that, at the end of the day, this is the management process that triggers the people who will oversee how prisons should be run; the condition surrounding such; and how we can reduce the space in our prisons. It is the same human capital.
Mr Chairperson, by and large, I want to submit, reluctantly, that I support the budget because it is in good faith that it has to be done.
Interruptions
Mr Fube: I said, ‘reluctantly’, and it is within my rights.
Laughter
Mr Fube: What is your problem? We are patriotic people; and since we are patriotic people, I want to put it on record that Chilubi has supported this particular budget, as long as there is some sanity in those records that I did notice, as indicated on pages 390 and 391.
Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Fube: I submit, Mr Chairperson, as that one raises his point of order.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: I think I dismiss the point of order.
Laughter
Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity. I also thank Her Honour the Vice-President for the elaborate presentation of the budget for the Zambia Correctional Service Commission.
Sir, I want to say that I am 100 per cent in support of the budget allocated to this commission. Further, being a Member of Parliament who is coming from where the headquarters of the Zambia Correctional Service is, I am mandated to, at least, point out a few things that we are expecting the commission to look into, especially the plight of the Zambia Correctional Service.
Mr Chairperson, it is very sad for me this afternoon even to mention that although I know that we have the Zambia Correctional Service Commission right now in place, the way it did not correct issues to do with human resource management in the Zambia Correctional Service is saddening. In fact, contrary to what Mr Fube said, the commission was turned into a political institution, and we faced what we have never faced before, where –
Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Ms Halwiindi: Is that a point of order?
Hon. Government Members: No! Continue.
Ms Halwiindi: Thank you so much, then let me proceed and –
Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Ms Halwiindi: Thank you so much. Let me continue.
Mr Chairperson, we experienced death even within the correctional facility where people are supposed to safe. When people go to visit their relatives, they experience many deaths right at the Mukobeko Maximum Prison. In addition, we experienced what we had never seen where personnel and officers could even sing political songs and gain a promotion out of it. We do not want to see this kind of thing. We want to make sure that this time; human resource management is done on merit. It should do more.
Mr Chairperson, I know that correctional service officers need to be taught what they are supposed to do - their mandate. There is a lot of training that is needed. I know that currently, most of them are misdirected as they do not know what is expected of them because of what we saw during the previous regime.
I am talking from experience and from what I saw. Even our own councilors who stood on the United Party for National Development (UPND) ticket would be called at night even by the highest officer of the Zambia Correctional Service. Some could even be offered employment for them to leave the position they stood for so that they could create a gap in the UPND, which was not good.
Sir, the younger officers that just join the correctional service do not even know their mandate and what they are supposed to do. Instead of offering correctional services to inmates, they think they are there for political issues and gain or just to sing songs.
Sir, I think the commission in place or yet to be put – I do not know whether there is one in place because of what was happening –it needs support, and to be mobile.
Mr Chairperson, Her Honour the Vice-President mentioned about not having enough transport. I think, in the history of the Zambia Correctional Service, a lot of transport was given to it, but we saw in the previous regime how the commission was not allocated transport. That is something that we do not understand. It was supposed to have transport so that it could be mobile to see what is happening around the Zambia Correctional Service offices.
So, we really need to support the Zambia Correctional Service to enable it do a lot to redesign or change the perception and also make sure that it supports the officers there and that if it comes to promotion, it will be done on merit.
Officers have to know what their mandate is and what they are supposed to do to help the people that are incarcerated there. So, if we do not put much emphasis on that, you would find that the Zambia Correctional Service is currently misdirected. It does not even know what its role is because of what it went through during the previous regime. What I am talking about is what we saw and what we experienced right there at the headquarters. We saw what happened.
So, this time, we need to support this budget, and it should also help put experienced officers or commissioners who know how to run the prisons. As I have said, there is too much misdirection of what they are supposed to do.
Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I submit. Please, let make sure that we support the budget 100 per cent so that a lot could be done to bring sanity to the Zambia Correctional Service.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I thank you, and thank Her honour the Vice-President for the statement.
Sir, as I stand to support the budget for the Zambia Correctional Service Commission worth K5,401,913 million, I want to put it on record that I wish more resources had been allocated to this Vote 36. Why am I saying so? I heard in her Honour the Vice-President’s statement where she mentioned some of the issues that are being missed by the Zambia Correctional Service. I want to go straight to the three heads that have been mentioned which are human resource management, governance and standards and, of course, management and support.
Mr Chairperson, I am happy because a larger chunk of this budget has been allocated to human resource which is 49 per cent, translating into K2.6 million. Her Honour the Vice-President, mentioned quite a number of challenges that the Zambia Correctional Service is encountering. I want to be specific on one, which is transport and infrastructure.
Sir, it is a well known record and is sad that sometime last year, if I am not mistaken, we lost quite a number of inmates in Luanshya along the Mpongwe/Luanshya road who were crammed like sardines in a one tonne van, close to twenty or thirty of the them and the vehicle over turned killing quite a number of them on the spot. It is in this vein that I was saying that I wished that this Vote was allocated more resources so that it can look into some of these areas of procuring transport, which in her statement, she vividly acknowledged.
Mr Chairperson, I also want to make mention here that the Zambia Correctional Service is no longer Zambia Prisons Service. The term itself, ‘correctional’ means that people who are sent there go there to be reformed. We will be doing ourselves a disservice if we do not improve on our infrastructure. The people who are being sent there have to be reformed. This means that even the infrastructure that is there must be conducive.
Mr Chairperson, I believe, and understand that in some States or countries, people even want to go back to the correctional service facilities because they are well looked after. I believe and look forward to a day when we shall get closer to having such facilities.
Sir, if her Honour the Vice-President went to where I am coming from, the Luanshya Correctional Service which was designed and meant for a few inmates those years, today, as a mother, she would shed a tear of sympathy to see hundreds and thousands of inmates being crammed into a very small shelter. We want to see the correctional service, as the name stands, have even the infrastructure be transformed to a better place for our inmates.
Sir, it is said that umulandu mume bau kumpula fye. It means that anyone can fall prey and anyone can find him/herself in such a situation. It is just time for us who are legislators in this House that we started looking into such issues because tomorrow, we may find ourselves in the same situation.
Mr Chairperson, I am aware, and I am alive to the fact that Zambia Correctional Service is not only taking care of inmates, but is also embarking on, with the encouragement of the Government, extending its tentacles into farming. I am saying so because I am a proud person. When I was District Commissioner (DC) for Luanshya, I associated with the Zambia Correctional Service in establishing and transforming a programme that the Government had put in place of getting into farming.
Mr Chairperson, as I speak, today at Chitwi Correctional Service facility we have about 310 ha under centre pivot, and it is contributing to the national food basket. I want to see even more being done.
Sir, I am aware that even in the Central Province and in Luapula Province, such facilities have been opened. However, I want to see the Zambia Correctional Service venture more into these facilities; into farming and training. Our correctional facility inmates must learn some of these skills whilst they are in the correctional facility. We do not want to bring people back from correctional facilities more hardcore criminals than they were when they went in. We want to see them reformed. We want to help them reform. They can only reform when they find better amenities in the facilities.
Mr Chairperson, I also want to make mention here that we need to encourage and motive officers who are sometimes working under difficult situations and challenges.
Mr Chairperson, just as I have said, it is very dangerous for one officer, which we all see, to escort a horde of inmates on foot with a mulila one gun.
Mr Mtayachalo: Meaning?
Mr J. Chibuye: That is very dangerous. We need to equip our correctional officers. Our officers should not be subjected to such threats or dangers as anything can happen. We want to see human resource even in the service itself be motivated. They should not be walking escorting inmates, twenty or thirty of them; one officer with a gun, probably, carrying only one live ammunition against all of those inmates. To Her Honour the Vice-President; personally, I would have loved to see an increment in allocation to Vote 36.
Lastly, Mr Chairperson, as I support these Estimates, I want to call upon Her Honour the Vice-President to please consider Luanshya Correctional Service first as the Government starts procuring transport so that, at least, the challenges that I have seen can be alleviated.
Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the budget and thank you very much for the opportunity.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: When Mr Mutale finishes, then Her Honour the Vice-President will wind up debate.
Mr Mwene: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order on whom?
Mr Mwene: Mr Chairperson, I think I would like to –
The Deputy Chairperson: The point of order is not granted. Let us make progress.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mutale was unavailable.
The Deputy Chairperson: If Mr Mutale is not ready, Mr Kampyongo can take the Floor.
Mr Kampyongo was unavailable
The Deputy Chairperson: Your Honour the Vice-President, wind up debate.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, once again, I start by thanking all hon. Members who have debated and supported this budget line, with some many good comments. However, let me, once again, say that I will be presenting budgets estimates for a number of commissions, which include the one I am presenting. What I would like people to understand is that these are service commissions. They do not deal with the workers of a particular ministry. I mean the people, for example, in this matter; it is not dealing with inmates. It is dealing with officers. So, the commission is not the one that is supposed to look after the welfare of inmates. It is the welfare of officers who, currently, are not as many as in other commissions and, also the commission being new, we see the figures like that.
Mr Chairperson, for example, Hon. Fube really spoke quite a number of things. Maybe on just one thing that he looked at; the leadership, which is sub programme seven under Leadership And Governance where he said, “how do you do this”, this has been redistributed within the sub programmes there. It is not that it has been thrown out.
I agree there is a need for funds, but currently the commission is quite small. I must say the secretariat is being shared between the Zambia Police Service Commission and the Zambia Correctional Service Commission. So, when we look at the office of the commissioners, it may not be like other commissions. When hon. Members show serious concern on the issue of transport, let them also realise that when inmates die, it is not the duty of the commissioners or the commissions to provide transport. When we talk about transport, it is about how commissioners move from one point to another and not how inmates move. Otherwise, I just want to thank the hon. Members for their support. The farms are also issues of the inmates. It is not the correctional facility officers that go into that.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Vote 36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K 95,923,142)
The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to present the policy statement for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development on the 2022 Budget Estimates.
Mr Chairperson, it is my honour and privilege to present to this august House, the policy statement in support of the 2022 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.
The theme for the 2022 Budget fiscal year as pronounced by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is “Growth, Jobs and Taking Development Closer to the People” and it is in line with the aspirations of the New Dawn Government for the mining sector. The ministry is key in actualising the theme by ensuring increased copper and other non-traditional minerals production, which will result in increased revenue collection through taxes, promote job creation and ultimately contribute to national development.
Mr Chairperson, mining is Zambia’s dominant industry accounting for an estimated 10 per cent Gross Domestic Product (GDP), over 70 per cent foreign exchange earnings, 30 per cent of the Government revenue and about 8 per cent formal employment. Therefore, the role of this sector as one of the key drivers to foster economic development cannot be over emphasised. Despite the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) challenges, copper production increased steadily from 798,942 tonnes recorded in 2019, to 868,671 in 2020.
However, there has been a slight decrease in copper production from 623,816 tonnes from January to September, 2020 to 593,500 tonnes recorded in the same period in 2021. The decrease is due to operational challenges at Kalumbila, Lumwana and Lubambe Mines. Despite this reduction, the projected production is expected to reach 800,000 metric tonnes by end of 2021.
Performance Review
Mr Chairperson, let me now provide a brief overview of programme performance for the period 1st January, 2021 to date. The ministry was allocated a total of K438,847,389, in the 2021 Budget representing 0.4 per cent of the total budget. The amount of K423,874,389 was a World Bank loan with the remaining K15,774,999 being Recurrent Departmental Charges (RDCs). 94 per cent of the RDCs have been released so far.
Mr Chairperson, during the period under review, the ministry commenced development and review of the policy and legal framework aimed at enhancing regulation of the sector. Among the notable pieces of legislation being reviewed are the Mines and Minerals Development Act of 2015, Mines and Minerals Regulations No. 29 of 1997, and Explosives Act of 1974. Further, a draft statutory instrument on local content for the mining sector has been developed and consultations are ongoing. This is aimed at enhancing the participation of Zambians in the mining value chain.
Mr Chairperson, in an effort to provide basic geological information to attract investment, the ministry planned to undertake geological mapping in the North-Western and Luapula provinces and currently, the mapping is ongoing.
Mr Chairperson, the Government continued to undertake proactive monitoring of the safety, occupational health and environment in the mines. The monitoring included regular inspections, approval and certification of equipment and machinery and review of environmental impact assessments submitted by mining companies.
Sir, under the Mines Development and Management Programme, the ministry continued with the monitoring and inspection of mines. To enhance the monitoring system, recruitment and deployment of officers to various departments in the ministry was done. The officers were deployed at selected border posts namely Chanida, Chirundu, Katimamulilo, Kasumbalesa, Kazungula, Nakonde and Victoria Falls. Officers were also deployed at the following large scale mines: Nchanga Mine under Konkola Copper Mines, Chambeshi Smelter and Kansanshi Mines and at the Kapiri Mposhi Weigh Bridge.
Mr Chairperson, during the year, the ministry continued to prioritise the promotion of artisanal and small scale mining through the provision of technical services and formalisation through creation of cooperatives.
Further, with support from the African Caribbean Pacific European Union (ACP-EU) Development Minerals Programmes and the Southern African Development Community (SADC), under the Trade Related Facility (TRF) Project, the ministry continued to build capacity on artisanal mines through the provision of small grants and skills development such as entrepreneurship, market access, investment and value addition while provision of equipment such as shaking tables, panning dishes and gold detectors were issued under the TRF project.
Mr Chairperson, programme implementation in 2021 has been hampered by inadequate budgetary allocation. However, the ministry continued implementing programmes with support from co-operating partners.
Mr Chairperson, I now turn my attention to the policy direction of the ministry in 2022 and beyond. The ministry has a Budget of K95,923,142 in 2022, representing 0.06 per cent of the National Budget. A total of K34,192,662 is for Personal Emoluments, K6,516,237 is for Grants and Subsidies, K48,394,153 is for Goods and Services while K6,820,000 is for assets. In fulfilling its mandate, the ministry will in 2022, implement six programmes namely:
- Mineral Resource Development and Management;
- Mine Safety Health Environment;
- Mines Development and Management;
- Mines Technical Services; and
- Petroleum Exploration; and
- Management of Support Services.
Mr Chairperson, the programmes highlighted above are anchored on the aspiration of the New Dawn Government as presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in his Budget Speech. In this regard, the focus for 2022 will be geological mapping, mineral exploration, formalisation, enhancing monitoring and promotion of value addition.
Mr Chairperson, Mineral Resource Development and Management has been allocated a total of K8,147,522 for the diversification agenda in the mining sector so as to move from copper dependence to other minerals by generating geological information to promote exploration. Other interventions will include promotion of value addition to gemstones, manganese and other high value minerals such as gold.
Mr Chairperson, the Mine Safety Health Environment Programme has been allocated a total of K34,287,851, out of which K28,214,154 is a World Bank loan for the implementation of the Zambia Mining Environmental Remediation and Improvement Project (ZMERIP). The remaining amount of K6 million is meant for monitoring of safety occupational health and environment in the mines.
Mr Chairperson, I want to conclude by saying that my ministry’s Budget is reflective of the national priorities as outlined in the President’s Speech to this House and the Budget Speech by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I, therefore, call upon this august House to support and approve the 2022 Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry as the sector has enormous potential to contribute to wealth creation and poverty –
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The hon. Minister’s time expired.
The Deputy Chairperson: I have a list in my hands that has been given to me by the Leader of the Opposition. So, if some of you feel you have been omitted, it is not out of intention or malice. It is because there is a list that has been given.
Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the budget allocation for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. Let me begin by saying that I support this budget but with the comments that I will be making as they concern this sector.
Mr Chairperson, let me start by quoting from the Budget Speech. When the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning presented the Budget to this House, on page 16, relating to the mining sector, the hon. Minister said:
“Madam Speaker, the mining sector remains critical to the Zambian economy as it is the main contributor to foreign exchange earnings. This role is destined to growing in importance due to the rising demand for copper boosted by its vital role in a number of rapidly growing industrial sectors such as manufacturing of electric vehicles. The buzzword is that copper will be as lucrative as oil was in the mid-1970s.”
Mr Chairperson, it is actually true, what the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said. It was going to be good if this talk was followed by the walk, as they say, because what we are seeing from this sector is the change in the tax policy of allowing mineral royalty as a deductable expense when it comes to computation of the corporate income tax. This, as has been said, is making the country lose K3.2 billion in 2022 as estimated revenue loss. This is a very vital sector and it is the highest in forex earning. Now, if we are to maximise and by the change in tax policy, we give up K3.2 billion and at the same time, the Government is going to borrow money next year to build secondary schools, now, one would think, what kind of processes are going on where you give up what you have and then you go out to borrow to build schools?
Mr Chairperson, it was going to be very good to match this Budget statement with actions. Instead of borrowing, maximise what you can get from the mining sector. In fact, the current tax regime gives a very high effective tax rate. The justification is that the change in the tax policy with regard to mineral royalty is the international best practice. Well, while in some countries it may be done like that, the fact is that in those countries, the Governments also have a very high stake in the mining companies. In our case, we have most of the mines where we do not even have a controlling stake. So, the only hope is for us to maximise on the tax revenue side. So, I wish that the Government can reconsider this position so that what is being mentioned in the Budget is matched with the actions, going forward.
Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about what has been mentioned, even in the Budget Speech, that the Government acknowledges some complications in the existing mines (MCM). Now, specifically, we can talk about the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) and Mopani Copper Mines. Coming from a constituency in Mufulira, where mining is the mainstay of our town, my appeal to the hon. Minister and the Government is that right now, MCM is in the hands of the Zambians through the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH). This was a bold decision that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government made. As the Government promises to address complications in the existing mines, my submission is that we should not ever think of bringing private investors to Mufulira.
Mr Chairperson, we should not give away the stake that we have now to the so-called investors because we saw what was going on in Mufulira when Mopani Copper Mines was in the hands of the foreign investors. The things that we were accused of on this side of the continent; the corruption and nepotism, are the things that we were seeing being done by the private investors. We could see some of the people coming in as expatriates simply to maintain the lawn in the golf course and getting a lot of money.
Sir, our own local suppliers and contractors were weeded out of the mining sector because these so-called foreign investors tagged along their fellows and they took up the contracts to supply to the mines. What that resulted in was that most of our own Zambians who were benefiting as contractors and suppliers to the mines were weeded out. It is not very long ago when these mining towns became ghost towns because our own people did not get the return by owning these minerals in this country.
Mr Chairperson, the workers were also facing a very big challenge under these foreign investors. It was not unusual that every time the Government pushed a policy in the direction that did not favour these so-called foreign investors, they would threaten with dismissal of employees.
Mr Chairperson, workers were waking up, going for work and their wives remained wondering that maybe their husbands would come with a letter of employment termination. However, those are things of the past because the mine is in the hands of the Zambians; it is in the hands of the Government. Therefore, in addressing these complications, the hon. Minister should bear in mind that if we import investors and bring people from outside this country to manage these mines and have the controlling stake, I can mention that the Copperbelt is going to become very hot for this Government. That is going to make this Government very unpopular because right now, there is security of jobs for the Zambians working in the mines.
Mr Chairperson, our contractors are now getting a fair share from these mines. Now, if we give it away, then we are actually betraying our own people and that will make it very difficult for the Government to find any favour from the Zambians. So, the hon. Minister should take into consideration that as we look at Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) and Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) we take into consideration the interest of the people of Zambian.
Mr Chairperson, we also have skilled people that are running the mines now. Even the investors make use of our own professionals, so it simply demonstrates that Zambians are capable of running the mines. So far, since the decision to take over the control of these mines was made by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, our own people, professional Zambian mining experts, have been running the mines. They have the capacity and capability to sustain the operations of these mines so that as a Government and as citizens, we get the benefits out of the mining sector.
Mr Chairperson, with these comments, I submit that I support this budget.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mpundu (Nkana): Mr Chairperson, thank you so much for giving me an opportunity to make a few comments on the budgetary provisions for the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development. Today, I am a man of very few words and let me state from my preamble that, I totally support the budget provision for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. However, allow me to make just a few observations and comments, namely that, for me, I sympathise with the hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development, and the Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. The decision to make the mineral royalty tax-deductible, in my view, should have been deferred. The New Dawn Government has come at the point where the country is obviously struggling in terms of resources and for me, there was no urgent need to please the mining companies at the expense of us maximising revenue from the mines through mineral royalty tax. I thought that we should have deferred the implementation of the deductibility of mining royalty perhaps to 2023 because then, we would have benefited hugely from the booming copper industry.
Mr Kang’ombe: It is not too late.
Mr Mpundu: Mr Chairperson, let me also mention here that I take note of the desire of the New Dawn Government to grow copper production from what is currently being produced to about 3 million metric tonnes in the next decade. However, we all know that for us to be able achieve such projections, we obviously will not ignore the plight of two mining giants on the Copperbelt, which is Mopani Copper Mines and Konkola Copper Mines. It was therefore, my desire and still is my desire and I hope that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should have apportioned a huge chunk of money towards the recapitalisation, particularly of Mopani Copper Mines. All of us are aware that after Glencoe left, for the first time, in a long time, Mopani has posted a positive result by way of profits. So, Mopani Copper Mines simply needed recapitalisation and I thought that we missed an opportunity through this budget to be able to give Mopani Copper Mines that kick start it needed.
Mr Kang’ombe: It is not too late.
Mr Mpundu: Sir, remember, the economy for the entire Copperbelt Province is predominantly dependant on Konkola Copper Mines and Mopani Copper Mines. Therefore, failure or if we ignore to look in that direction, we would have subjected our people to perpetual poverty. I thought that before we can actually give it a go ahead, this matter must be given consideration.
Mr Chairperson, the desire to grow copper production up to 3 million metric tonnes, obviously, requires that we must pursue green fields as well as support small-scale miners or mining entities. I am disturbed today, to see that many mining licenses were erroneously given to foreigners and I am wondering why a foreigner would be given a small-scale mining license at the expense of our own Zambians. When are going to benefit from our mineral wealth if foreigners will come into this country and be given small-scale mining licenses? These are matters that in my personal capacity as hon. Member of Parliament, I am pursuing with the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development. This is so because I take note of one particular issue that sits in my constituency, where a foreigner has been given a license where young people would have benefitted by having small-scale mining licenses. However, I hope that it is not too late for the ministry to consider that position, and create an opportunity for many young people to benefit because I know that the New Dawn Government has pronounced that it is going to give small-scale mining licenses to our locals as opposed to giving foreigners.
Mr Chairperson, I have made many comments in the past vis-à-vis,I continue to wonder why we, as a country continue to grapple with debt issues yet we are endowed with so much minerals wealth. I take note of the viability of the mineral sectors especially the precious minerals we have in this country. I want to cite one or two examples. On the Copperbelt, we have two companies that have been mining emeralds. All of us at some point or another have heard that the emeralds we produce in Zambia have built other nations. Yet, the place where we mine the emeralds today looks like a war torn zone. The question I have always had in mind is how we have felt to exploit this huge mineral wealth. I take note, and I want to present this to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. Emerald is mined over a belt, today, if you go to Kagem Emerald Mine, ithas only been mining over a very small chunk. My question is: why have we not invited other stakeholders to go and exploit that mineral resource that sits untapped because that is where the potential lies for us to gain the much-needed revenues we need for this country?
Mr Chairperson, secondly, all of us are aware of the potential that this country has in terms of how much gold lies in our soils. A year ago, we were talking about Kasenseli Gold Mine and all of us here know that Kasenseli Gold Mine has very little gold to talk about as compared to what is mined in Kansanshi Mine. I stand to be corrected. We have heard reports that Kansanshi Mine actually has moved in terms of production, from having maximum copper production to gold production. Now, all over the world where gold is mined, it is never left in the hands of private individuals, it is mined by Governments. So, here is an opportunity for the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to become a hero. I want to suggest to him that the Government must take possession of all gold mining sites because that is our key cut to resolving these economic woes we have. I can bet my life in this House, if we exploit the gold we have, we will no long be talking about going to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to get a loan.
Mr Chairperson, I want to put it to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development that we audit what is being mined at KM in terms of gold and how much benefit we are getting from there. If we cannot to get it as the Government, let us go and compulsorily get all the sites that have gold unlike leaving it in the hands of individuals. Gold is a war mineral, if we leave it in the hands of individuals, very soon we are going to have problems that we are going to fail to solve.
If we are looking for solutions to the economic challenges that this country faces, two minerals alone, emerald and gold, can be our answer instead of us fighting over copper, if only we can open our minds to, perhaps, being advised on these issues. The hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has a chance to become a hero.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The hon. Member’s time expired.
Ms Kasune (Keembe): Mr Chairperson, I would be remiss if I did not talk about the acknowledgment of World Aids Day today, a reminder to the whole country and indeed to us as hon. Members that HIV/AIDS is still alive. So, may we be mindful of those that have passed and those that live with HIV as we commemorate World Aids Day today, hence the red ribbons you see around.
Sir, I want to say from the beginning that I do support the Budget presented here through the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. In representing the people of Keembe Constituency, I want to touch on a few issues. One of the issues that I want to speak about that the hon. Minister alluded to was the issue of geological mapping.
Mr Chairperson, for the longest time as a country we tended to lack knowledge of where our miners are in terms of creating data so that we are aware even as investors come. This is because not only the mining areas that we know like the Copperbelt are rich in minerals. We know that even in places like Chisamba and Keembe there are speculations that there are minerals, hence, the mapping will really help us to ensure that we know exactly what we own as a country.
Sir, secondly, I want to talk about the mines safety health environment which has a budget of aboutK34 million. In my view, it could have been more. Many people do not know that some of us were bred on the Copperbelt and have families there. One of the challenges in places like Kankoyo Township is that many our family members have suffered damage and life threatening diseases beyond what their remuneration would be. Hence, the centre, as the other colleagues are saying, has really damaged many family members and caused the loss of many lives. I speak from personal experience.
Mr Chairperson, we cannot, as a country and a Government, put the bottom line, which means the finances, at the expense of the well-being of Zambians. A lot of investors have come, made money out of our country and left, yet the wellbeing and health of our people has suffered. Not do the families suffer, but also the Government of the day because at the end of the day they have to treat those who are suffering.
Sir, I am pleased to see the K34 million that has been allocated to this part and also to see that only K4 million of that is for salaries or payment of staff while a lot of it, the chunk which is K30 million, goes to other goods that are needed to facilitate the mines safety health environment.
Mr Chairperson, thirdly, I want to add to the aspiration of the ministry in trying to make sure that the youth and women are incorporated in owning part of the shares of the mines. I did hear some of my colleagues on the left speak to this. If we do not bring women into the mining industry, we will forever be doing ourselves injustice and we will not be developing. It is important and statistics have shown that where women have been given opportunities or empowered they have paid back or made more profit, in many cases, than our male colleagues. It is, therefore, recommendable that as the hon. Minister empowers youths, women should also be a priority for him as we go into these joint ventures.
Sir, we hope that some of the behaviours we saw of giving holidays to foreigners at the expense of Zambians or making it difficult for Zambians to get into this business will be a thing of the past.
Mr Chairperson, the other thing that I want to add as the fourth issue is the issue of the lack of adding value in our country. We as a country hope that through the Budget, and through this Government of His Excellency Hakainde Hichilema, under the new dawn, we will begin to add value to the minerals that we have. It is saddening to see copper always being transported in raw form and yet it goes out of this country to other countries at a cheaper price. When it comes back, even in our country where it originated from, it is so expensive that even Zambians cannot afford it. If we are going to make money in this industry we must ensure that we begin to add value to our minerals.
Sir, I was surprised once when I was in the United States of America (USA) to learn that Zambia had mined one of the biggest emeralds, but you ask yourself how much of that came to the Government and is ploughed back? The challenge most likely remains so the hon. Minister has a lot of work at hand.
Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, the other issue that I want to talk about, in adding a voice to this ministry as I support the Budget that the hon. Minister has presented to us, is the issue of social licensing. It is important that the people who are given licences are welcomed and appreciated by the locals because this is what has led to some of the disputes in our areas where a person comes in as an investor and does not know the traditions of the people and have no relationship.
Sir, to add salt to injury, some of us gave birth to our children on the Copperbelt, Konkola Mine Hospital, to be precise, where when you went to mine hospital, there were times when people would laugh that some of the patients did not want to go back home because of the social responsibility that the mines took seriously. Some of us who lived in Chililabombwe were proud of being from there. We were proud of the fact that we had a tennis court. If you were an actor, like me, you went to the little theatre, for example. We had the Croaking Frog where people went for social life. It added life and value to the workers, but this is not the case lately.
Mr Chairperson, we hope that as the hon. Minister looks at the social licences, it is not just to familiarise those investors, especially our locals who may become joint partners, but also to ensure that our local people, or the investors that come, do not just take away minerals but are held responsible and accountable. It is high time that as Zambians when we come to the table of conversing about our minerals and our mines, we do not come as beggars, we come to the table owning something valuable that God has given us that we not only own for our generation, but the many generations to come.
Sir, with those few words, the people of Keembe, through me, support the presentation by the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.
I thank you.
Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to debate the very important Head. Listening to the submission from the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and other debaters, especially the past one, I was wondering why they appealing to the hon. Minister to stop giving tax holidays when we just finished debating the Minister of Finance and National Planning giving tax holidays where the mines will be able to recover for the next ten years without paying anything to the Zambian Government if they make a loss.
Sir, getting down to the Budget, I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. He is in Government. He is no longer in the Opposition. Borrowing the words by the hon. Member for Nkana, Zambia is for all of us. Strategic minerals like gold are troublesome minerals across the world. You cannot politik with that. If you want to create warlords, play with gold and leave it in private hands. Fortunately, Zambians will not allow this because if this country goes into flames, it will not choose who made that wrong decision, all of us will be affected.
The previous Administration placed gold mining under the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Limited Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) with a clear understanding that we needed to secure economic recovery for the people of Zambia through the minerals and to protect their interest so that we do not allow –
Mr Chairperson, the African Continent has been known as a troubled continent because some countries have oil and gold, and there is so much interest from the foreign nations. So, to protect the citizens, our children and grandchildren, we need to act responsibly. This is why I appeal to my brother, the Minister of Mines and Mineral Development, Hon. Kabuswe, to be rational as he makes decisions that affect the interest of this nation and the future generations. We need to put great interest – yes, some people scrounge for alluvial gold here and there because the investment in gold is very high. However, where we have reasonable mineral deposits, the Government must take interest and avoid politicking.
Mr Chairperson, I appeal to the hon. Minister and the New Dawn Administration to consider the interests of the Zambian people, as they make decisions for the betterment of our country. As I stated, the presence of oil on the African Continent and gold deposits in some African countries have been a source of conflict. We are happy that God has blessed Zambia with deposits of gold, so, we must act responsibly.
Mr Chairperson, on 12thAugust, the people of Zambia chose to deposit their security interest, social interest and economic interest in the New Dawn Government so that it can protect them. As a responsible opposition political party, we will be here to remind and advise our colleagues of their responsibility to secure our future, economically, socially and politically. Bearing in mind that William Shakespeare said that this world is like a stage, we all come to play our part and go. It does not belong to anyone. We sat there and we are no longer there. You are there and one day, you will no longer be there. One important thing that we must understand is that change is the only thing that is constant. There are some pictures in some offices and that should remind you that there were officers before you occupied that office.
Hon. UPND Member: Question!
Mr Chitotela: You can question but you must be aware that you are not the first hon. Member of Parliament. We sat with other hon. Members in here. I have been here for three terms and I can sure you that the return ratio in Parliament for old hon. Members of Parliament is less than 30 per cent.
Mr Chairperson, I appeal to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and the new Administration to put the interest of the Zambian people first. Mining is the key economical driver for our economy, so, we must make rational decisions. We must make serious considerations as we make decisions bearing in mind that, it is not just the Copperbelt or the North-Western provinces that depend on the mining activities that are happening in those regions, but the whole country.
Mr Chairperson, there is manganese in Luapula Province and I invite the hon. Minister to go and see what is happening in Luapula. There is an orthodox way of mining and people are leaving trenches. We are worried especially that we see more than thirty or fifty Tanzanian trucks almost every day taking manganese to Tanzania, leaving the local people with literally nothing. So, the hon. Minister needs to take interest in other minerals also and visit provinces like Luapula Province.
Mr Chairperson, yes, we appreciate that Zambians have been given mining licences in order to build capacity. However, capacity cannot just be built in abstract. We need to guide our people and demonstrate that value addition is the only way that we can develop and emancipate ourselves out of poverty. Out of everything that I have said – as the hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development, the hon. Minister of Justice and the Minister of Finance and National Planning sit in Cabinet, they should bear in mind that gold is a source of conflict everywhere in the world. So, they should make decisions that secure the interest of this nation for the good of our grandchildren, who must be able to come and say, yes, our parents provided service above self.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this very important sector. Mining is very dear to my heart because I was raised in a mining town called Kitwe, and I think we have to find solutions that will help the hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development and the Government to help our people.
Mr Chairperson, I was checking the details and, currently, the mining sector contributes close to 10 per cent of our Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and mining exports account for close to 78 per cent of our exports, which clearly shows that whatever discussion we may have about diversification, we cannot detach mining.
Mr Chairperson, I will point out a few things that I want the hon. Minister to take note and I hope they will form part of his decision making process. The hon. Minister is aware that the Government has set a target to produce 3 million tonnes of copper over the next ten years. However, the hon. Minister in his statement did not indicate the level of participation he wants to see small scale mines assume towards that target. The assumption the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is making is that foreigners will come and put in US$2 billion and then raise the tonnage for copper to 3 million but I think the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development should also apportion what should go to Zambians.
Mr Chairperson, I think that there are so many Zambians who are ready to take up mining. We cannot have 10 per cent of our GDP being contributed only by foreigners. So, my proposal to the hon. Minister is that we need to create a fund under the ministry specifically to support Zambians who want to participate in mining, the way we have created funding for small scale entrepreneurs. Zambians should be helped with registering a mining company and should be given licences. Thereafter, that fund should help them undertake operations in mining and address safety and occupational challenges, the issues which the hon. Member for Keembe raised.
Mr Chairperson, we may have challenges with finding money in the immediate term and we may find it in 2023, but I hope more money can be allocated to this ministry. The hon. Minister should ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for more money before we even approve this Budget. He can ask for K500 million to support the Zambians who want to participate in mining. On the Copperbelt, there are people who are normally referred to as Jerabos and I think there has been a wrong perception about what they do in the mining sector. These are Zambians who want to be part of the economic activities of our country. These are small scale miners who need to be supported and the hon. Minister has the opportunity –
I want to borrow the words of the hon. Member for Pambashe. The hon. Minister now has the responsibility and there are many ideas that we are ready to share. What is important is that the hon. Minister takes this proposal very seriously. The Government can create a fund to support the Zambians who want to participate in mining. We cannot have 78 per cent of our exports being facilitated by foreigners. Zambians across the ten provinces are ready to take up mining as an economic activity and let us stop calling them illegal copper miners. Let us formalise their existence and help them get active in the sector.
Mr Chairperson, the previous Government adopted Local Economic Development (LED) as a strategy to help local people participate in the economic activities of different cities. The hon. Minister comes from Chililabombwe and he agrees with me that there are young people who want to do mining there. We need strategies or guidelines for LED in the mining sector, the same way we have made guidelines for the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. All the 116 local authorities have LED guidelines, but we do not have LED guidelines for mining. So, my second proposal is that the ministry needs to develop LED guidelines for mining.
Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister indicated that there are petroleum exploration blocks and we want to see Zambians in those blocks. We want him to deliberately allow for partnerships. Where he thinks Zambians may not have the capacity to undertake these various explorations, he should give them capacity. The Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development can appoint a consultant who will be able to work with them so that as we discover where petroleum is in Zambia or where oil deposits are, they can participate in this very important sector. So, the hon. Minister should deliberately ensure that these petroleum exploration blocks allow for Zambians to participate.
Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, my dear hon. Colleague from Nkana raised a very important issue. We have assumed operations in two of our mines. Currently, we are running Mopani Copper Mines Plc, which is in a very important province, the Copperbelt. We did not hear how much the Government is going to put into this mine to ensure that operations continue. From January 2020 to date, two years now, Mopani Copper Mines Plc has been run by Zambians. However, the hon. Minister is aware that they do not have the funds in terms of recapitalisation. My hon. Colleague touched on it, and I want to emphasise that the hon. Minister should find money to take to Mopani Copper Mines Plc. If he does not find money to take to this mine, our assumption is that he has intentions of selling it. So, we hope that he will quickly find money and put it into this mine so that Zambians continue running this very important mining company on the Copperbelt. I think the same applies to other mines where the Government has a very critical stake. So, those are my proposals, and the hon. Minister should discuss with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning on where funds will be found to support our small scale miners.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Kapyanga (Mpika Central): Thank you so much, Mr Chairperson, and I thank the hon. Minister for that aptly put policy statement.
Mr Chairperson, Zambia is very rich in minerals. However, there is nothing to write home about. All the infrastructure development that we see is through borrowing because we have failed to harness our natural resources as a country. All the mines have been in the hands of foreigners, including the mining of gold, emeralds, and other minerals. I will call this kind of a situation, like we say in Mpika, umulembwe wacipuba upwila muli tumfwe which means that “treasures of a foolish man finish through being reckless.”
Laughter
Mr Kapyanga: Mr Chairperson, we have been very reckless with our minerals. Our minerals contribute 10 per cent to our Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and this is very minimal. However, mere co-operatives in Kenya contribute about 40 per cent to Kenya’s GDP. If certain minerals were in the hands of the Government, we would have been making a lot of money from the mines. Like the hon. Member for Nkana said, the hon. Minister has an opportunity to change the status quo, and we know he is equal to the task. Certain minerals should be entirely in the hands of the Government. For long enough, as a country, we have been taken for a ride. The so-called mining companies under-declare their profits and hold the Government at ransom and say that they have not made profits and will dismiss workers, and that should stop.
Mr Chairperson, we are said to be Africa’s second largest producer of copper. However, like I said, there is nothing to write home about. Even for this Budget that we are debating, maybe about 50 per cent will be financed through borrowing, that is US$4.3 billion. We could realise this money from our minerals if at all there was political will to harness our natural resources and minerals and make our own funds.
Mr Chairperson, let me give an example of the late Thomas Sankara who was a leader of a country then called Upper Volta. He harnessed the resources of his country. He said he was not going to depend on borrowing because he who feeds you controls you. That is the case. Today, as a country, we may even go to our former colonisers to borrow, yet when they were here they left nothing for us. They looted our resources, and today, we borrow from them because we have no capacity to harness our natural resources.
Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has an opportunity to prove to the entire nation that, indeed, we can have people who can say enough is enough and can look at how wealthy we are as a country. We are a very wealthy country. If we harnessed our minerals, we would finance our Budget say by 70 per cent because we have emeralds and diamonds. I looked at the geological map of Mpika, and there are five sites of diamonds, three sites of gold and two sites of manganese in Mpika District. In Central Province, there is senseless mining of manganese by foreigners and they are externalising the money that they realise from that manganese. Everywhere you go, there is senseless mining of gold. They actually externalise the money that they realise from such mining. Our own resources build other countries and create jobs in other countries. As a country, we just look, and at the end of the day, we go there to borrow the same money. It is so embarrassing and shameful.
Mr Chairperson, I have all the trust in the hon. Minister that we are not just talking. We are not happy with the situation at hand and things should change. We should not be borrowing the same money which we are supposed to make locally. The money we borrow is from our natural resources. Like the hon. Member for Keembe mentioned, we export copper in raw form.
The same price of copper is determined by imperialists. When we export copper in raw form, they make whatever they make and we go and import what they have made. Honestly, we need to change the status quo. It should not just be these kinds of policies; we need a serious policy in as far as the harnessing of our minerals is concerned. We can do better as a country. We cannot entrust everything in the hands of foreigners, including precious stones such as emeralds, gold and diamond. Why should we tell ourselves that we do not have the capacity to mine emeralds yet, the same foreign companies that come to mine our minerals use our own people?
Mr Chairperson, like others have spoken, today we have an opportunity; the Mopani Copper Mine (MCM) is in our hands and the Konkola Copper Mine (KCM) can also be in our hands. We should not allow some foreigners to come back with huge pledges to say, “I am going to invest this much” when a few months ago when they were there, they were saying they were making loses. Let the Government continue running these two mines for the benefit of our people like it was in the past. We had the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) running these mines and our people on the Copperbelt, including the whole lot of Zambia, benefited. Some of the Members of Parliament in here got educated from the money made from the mines. So, even this time around, it can be done. We should not educate our future generations with money borrowed from imperialists.
I submit, Sir.
Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate this Vote, which is on the backbone of our economy.
Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, in his policy statement, told us that in the United Party for National Development (UPND) strategic plan on mining, they want to target six programmes namely, mineral resource development and management, mine safety, health, environment management and support services.
Mr Chairperson, the other thing I expected to hear from the hon. Minister was the mention of how the ministry is going to undertake the mineral value chain monitoring process and the mineral production monitoring process, especially that in the Budget Speech, there is a component were the UPND Government wants to increase production to 3 million metric tonnes in ten years.
Also in the policy statement, the hon. Minister told us that the ministry is targeting minerals other than copper so that we can reduce dependence on copper.
Mr Chairperson, whatever strategies the hon. Minister is trying to develop in that line, he should bear in mind that copper still remains the goose that lays the golden egg. I am also meant to think that the hon. Minister’s focus on other minerals is a welcome move. It is good to focus on other minerals other than copper. However, I am also meant to think that is it the reason the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning made mineral royalty deductable? My hon. Colleague from Nkana suggested that this should have been pushed, maybe, to 2023, but we, from Wusakile, have a different view. This should not even come into question. The reason is very simple; taxes from that angle can help us reduce the Pay As You Earn (PAYE) tax which is too huge at 37.5 per cent; it can also help us pay for students’ meal allowances; and allow for the increase in salaries for our civil servants and many other public workers. That is why we suggest that no one should touch that.
Mr Chairperson, we heard the statement from the UPND Government that we need US$500 million to revamp the Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited. Just to bring to your attention that a month and some weeks before the General Elections, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government collected US$600 million from mining taxes.
Hon. Government Members: Where is the money?
Hon. Opposition Member: It is in the coffers
Mr Kalobo: Ask the members of the Executive. They have taken over; they have seen it.
Interruptions
Mr Kalobo: Mr Chairperson, the PF Government collected US$600 million. So, we should be looking at that to increase beneficiation. So, mining taxes can fund many other projects like Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited.
Mr Chairperson, I have also seen in the hon. Minister’s budget where he is proposing an increased availability of energy. I do not know how, because just the decision on Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited. – the hon. Minister may wish to know that the fuel from Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited., which used to be given to the mines, is no longer given to them. We produce 100 MW at Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited.. So, just on that decision, did whoever came up with it look at the opportunity cost? If they did not, this is the time. Let them look at the opportunity cost. The language or the pronouncements to say cost reflective tariffs, in short, the one the UPND Government is arguing is about the cost of electricity to the citizens.
Mr Chairperson, there were so many investors, where we are coming from, who wanted to invest in the energy sector who were proposing to the PF Government. However, the argument was on the tariff itself. They wanted a higher tariff, but the PF refused. So, slowly and progressively, they have been increasing. We have projects like where Tata India has partnered with the Government on 50/50 shares basis. We also have the Kafue Gorge Lower project where the Government provided 100 per cent funding. We have so many hydro power stations, so we can take that route. Just the decision made on Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited is reducing 100 MW from our supply.
Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister knows that in copper production, we need a lot of electricity. So, we need to look at that. In the policy statement, I expected to hear clearly at national level, and not only on the Copperbelt, because I am fully aware of what is happening on the Copperbelt in terms of dumpsites. So, I will not comment on that because it is being done in the right way. However, at national level, I have not heard of any pronouncement on what policy Government is going to undertake in terms of dumpsites; we need to hear about that.
Mr Chairperson, in the hon. Minister’s policy statement, we did not also get whether the Government wants to increase its foothold in the mines. In the two mines that we have, MCM and KCM, we are hearing issues of privatisation. It is very important to retain one mine or two. From our experience, when such a decision to make mineral royalty deductible was made, we saw the tax avoidance issues which came up; transfer pricing, where mining companies started importing a lot of equipment then even lied. We need to know what the production cost is because they have been not telling the truth and that is what gave effect to them paying lower taxes.
Mr Chairperson, we want these interventions so that we have a win-win situation in the mining sector. As a person from Wusakile, I can say that it is very sad for the miners who work in the mines. The wages are too low and the environment is polluted. There is no benefit whatsoever.
Mr Chairperson, I have no doubt, with the new hon. Minister, because I know he is coming from the mining area. We are coming together and he knows the problems that are there and how our suppliers suffer. The hon. Minister knows. So, I think he should be in a better position to make sure that, at least, things change for our people in the mining sector …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The Hon. Member’s time expired.
Mr Mufalali will be the last speaker and then, the hon. Minister will wind up debate.
Mr Mufalali (Nominated): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity. My submission will be very brief.
Hon. PF Member: No politics.
Mr Mufalali: No, I am not politicking today.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to say one or two words.
Firstly, I want to thank the hon. Minister for the statement and the policy direction under the United Party for National Development (UPND) and the New Dawn Government. I think I pick it from the policy direction as presented by the President. The pronouncements that followed thereafter are very good pronouncements and are in tandem with what the hon. Minister has presented to us today.
Firstly, I want to thank the hon. Minister for the way he wants to run the mining sector in that he is first of all brining on board local participation and citizens participation in order for them to get involved in the mining sector. The Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, speaking to your ministry and many other ministries that are involved in this sector that are speaking to each other, I see ourselves as a country growing this sector because the youth will be involved and that is a plus for this country.
Secondly, if we are going to look at the mineral royalties as deductable tax, I think, in the eyes of a foreigner, we will miss it. On one hand, I am hearing people say it benefits foreigners while on the other hand, when you bring local investors, what happens? It means local investors benefit. So, if they are going to invest into equipment, definitely, it will benefit them and it brings about growth.
Mr Chairperson, so, I do not know, I mean, let me not even say I do know, but what I am seeing from this sector or this ministry is that we are targeting growing the small and medium enterprises by the way we are approaching and doing our tax regime and even the way we want things to happen
Sir, going back to some of the pronouncements that I have heard in this House, the hon. Minister will realise that the New Dawn Government is out to ensure that there is citizen’s participation. It is not kicking out anyone to be involved in the mining sector for simple reasons. Firstly, if we are going to ensure that we get everything and start operating everything as a Government, we are going to miss it.
Sir, the real thing here is that at one time, the Patriotic Front (PF) and even now, tried and tasted the wrong fruit. They got the Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL) out of LAP Green Networks and, today, ZAMTEL is seriously limping; there is no company any more there. It went to the Zambia Railways Limited, nationalised it, and got it away from the Israelis who had taken over, the Railways System of Zambia. Today, Zambia Railways Limited is nowhere because there is no capital injection in there. Unfortunately, the people who actually took over could not manage it properly.
Mr Chairperson, citizen participation is important. It is also very important for Investors to come in and be able to participate in that same business. However, to go full throttle 100 per cent owned by – or pushing money in those corporations is long gone. I think we have moved from policies of nationalising and protecting everything and putting it – I think we have moved.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mufalali: Sir, when the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy MMD came in, I think it learnt something and started growing the economy to 7.5 per cent. Unfortunately, when it came out, ten years down the line, the economy is so crippled; it has gone down to zero point something growth rate which is not good for us.
Mr Chairperson, from what we have learnt in the past ten years, we need to move away from such policies that tend to be protectionist or that tend to protect and allow the Government to participate 100 per cent and completely remove participation of foreign direct investment (FDIs) and other investors. I think that is not the way we should run this country.
The way the hon. Minister is running and the way he is putting things is the way to go and Zambians will tend to benefit from these policies that are being put in place by the New Dawn Government as they benefit citizens and bring citizens participation to ensure that they benefit. By going 100 per cent, the other way the PF went, the two companies teach us serious lessons; Zambia Railways Limited and ZAMTEL. Right now, they are in a total mess and total collapse. There is nothing going on there.
Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister moves, he should move with the citizens the way he has put it; citizen participation. The world is moving. So, we now need to ensure that we are doing clean mining. We have the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment which is actually looking right into the ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to see that you are doing the right things in terms of mining so that we move away and take over some of the things that are going wrong in terms of the way they are mining, especially in other areas where there are complaints that mines are just digging and leaving holes. I think we need to move in that direction. The hon. Minister is on the right trajectory and we can do better.
With policies that are coming on board, I think Zambians are very happy to ensure that they get involved in all these sectors.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for the opportunity, again.
Sir, looking at the fact that the New Dawn Government is just about three months old, you can see from the contributions of the hon. Members the kind of confusion that we have taken over ...
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kabuswe: … because whatever is being alluded to is the mess that was created previously, but we have come to clean the mess; to restore order.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kabuswe: We, from the Bemba land say: Mpyana ngo, apyana nama bala.’
Hon. Members: Meaning?
Mr Kabuswe: It means that he who takes over takes over everything, including the mess that was created. So, as a ministry, we want to tell you that we are very ready to take on the challenge. Give us time. I wish people would be debating like this after five years of President Hakainde Hichilema; then, they would tell us about the problems and the issues. I say so because hon. Members were debating as though it is this Government that created the mess. Give us chance …
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kabuswe: … and you will see the mettle that we are made of as the New Dawn Government. There are several issues that you have raised –
Hon. PF Members: Wind up debate.
Mr Kabuswe: I am winding up and responding.
There are so many issues which you have raised such as the Mineral Royalty Tax and how we have allowed deductibility. The reason is simple. We want to create an environment where we attract more investment in the mining sector.
Hon. UPND Members: Yes!
Mr Kabuswe: This is why we have done what we have done, and I want people to be clear, Mr Chairperson. There are some people who are misleading us, even on the Floor of the House, that we have completely removed Mineral Royalty Tax. That is not what we have done. What we have done is that we want the Mineral Royalty Tax to be treated as an expense for purposes of Income Tax calculations.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kabuswe: That is what we have done. So, people must not be lying on the Floor of the House that we have completely removed Mineral Royalty Tax. This is for purposes of creating more investment. When there is more activity in the mining sector, whatever losses we have suffered now are going to be erased by more activity in the mining sector. What we have taken over is a depressed mining sector and we want to remove the depression from the sector. I thank Hon. Mwila, Hon. Mpundu and Hon. Kasune. Since the time is limited, the matters that the hon. Members have raised are critical. I want to say this, that as Minister, I do not endeavour to be a hero. I want Zambians to be heroes when I serve.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kabuswe: I want Zambians to be respected when I serve.
Hon. Government Members: Yes!
Mr Kabuswe: This Government emphasises the participation of Zambians in mining activities.
Mr Mpundu: We want to make you a hero!
Hon. UPND Members: Ah!
Mr Kabuswe: I am not going to be a hero. Zambians will be heroes.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kabuswe: We are doing all the geological mapping. I have stated in the statement that the mapping is being done in the mining sector. It is unfortunate that Hon. Chitotela has left. He does not know that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has already visited Luapula Province to go and check on these other minerals because diversification is key, which will lead also to value addition in the sector. We are already on top of things in terms of checking other minerals. You have seen the example of Kasenseli Mine. The reason we have done what we have done, in line with our policy, is to make sure that we harness and also bring the Government up to speed in terms of where these activities are going on so that we take charge. The confusion was created by the previous regime but as a policy, we want to harness all the resource to make sure that this country benefits from every resource apart from copper.
The hon. Member’s time expired.
Mr Kabuswe: My time has run out. I needed more time. I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – Petroleum Exploration – K1,255,790)
Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2139 – Petroleum Exploration –K1,255,790. Since a sum of K585,790 will be used on Personal Emoluments (PEs), could the hon. Minister share with this House and through this House with the nation, which areas have these petroleum deposits.
Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairperson, I may not go into the specifics of the areas, but we are doing a mapping countrywide and this why we have allocated this kind of money. So, if the hon. Member would care, he can file in a question and I will give the details to that.
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, on a point of clarification, here is the Yellow Book and we are asking about these activities. First of all, on a point of procedure, how can an hon. Back-Bencher start misleading the hon. Minister? This is work for the Front Bench. There is an hon. Member of Parliament there who is distracting the hon. Minister. Can you ask him to go back to his place, Mr Chairperson?
Hon. UPND Members: Question!
Mr Sing’ombe: Are you having a dialogue with the Chair?
The Deputy Chairperson: I think the hon. Minister has indicated appropriately that if you need further clarification, –
Mr Kampyongo: No, Mr Chairperson, there is an amount allocated for PEs, we want to know.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, did you not hear what the hon. Minister said?
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I am not satisfied.
The Deputy Chairperson: If you want more clarity, you write to his office and seek an audience with him.
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, no, this is what we do here. We have to know the use and purpose when we are appropriating resources. That is the work of this Yellow Book. So, let the hon. Minister explain –
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, shed a bit of light on that.
Mr Kabuswe: Mr Chairman, thank you very much. The funds are actually for regulation of (PE). PE is petroleum exploration. It is going on in blocks thirty-two, fifty-four and thirty-one in Luapula and the Northern provinces.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Vote 14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
(Debate adjourned)
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HOUSE RESUMED
[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]
(Progress reported)
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The House adjourned at 1859 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 2nd December, 2021.
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