Wednesday, 9th March, 2022

Wednesday, 9^th March, 2022

[MADAM SPEAKER, in the Chair]

The House met at 1430 hours

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

PRESIDENT’S ADDRESS

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I inform the House that in accordance with Articles 9 and 86 of the Constitution of Zambia, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, will address the House on Friday, 11^th March, 2022 starting at 0900 hours.

I thank you.

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RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR GOLDEN MWILA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MUFULIRA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY AGAINST MR WARREN C. MWAMBAZI, MP, THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE FOR CHAIRING MEETINGS OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE WHEN HE WAS ALLEGEDLY LINKED TO ONE OF THE COMPANIES THAT HAD BEEN SUMMONED BY THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE ON QUERIES ON THE SUPPLY OF CORONAVIRUS DISEASE 2019 (COVID-19) ITEMS TO THE DMMU

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Wednesday, 2^nd March, 2022, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 246, and Hon. Paul C. C. Kabuswe, Minister of Mines and Minerals Development had just concluded responding to a follow up question, Mr Golden Mwila, Member of Parliament for Mufulira Parliamentary Constituency, raised a point of order against Mr Warren C. Mwambazi, MP, the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee.

In his point of order, Mr Mwila, MP, raised concern on whether Mr Mwambazi, MP, was in order to continue chairing meetings of the Public Accounts Committee when he was allegedly linked to one of the companies that had been summoned by the Public Accounts Committee on queries on the supply of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) items to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU).

Hon. Members, in my immediate response, I reserved my ruling in order to conduct a thorough investigation on the matter. The investigation has since been conducted, and I now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, the point of order raises the issue of an hon. Member having a pecuniary interest in a matter before the House or a Committee, vis-à-vis their participation in proceedings on the matter.

Hon. Members, before I proceed, let me acquaint the House with the background information on the point of order. As was indicated in the point of order, the Public Accounts Committee commenced sittings on Monday, 28^th February, 2022 to consider the Report of the Auditor-General on the Audit Report on the Utilisation of Coronavirus Disease 2019 Funds from July 2020 to October 2021. During its sittings, the DMMU was summoned to appear before the Public Accounts Committee to provide clarity on some of the irregularities raised in the Auditor-General’s Report regarding utilisation of the COVID-19 funds. However, some of the queries were not clarified by the representative of the DMMU.

In this regard, the Committee resolved that the contractors who had supplied the COVID-19 materials should be requested to accompany the DMMU representative when they next appear before the Public Accounts Committee. It is in this regard that Mr Mwila, MP, raised the point of order.

Hon. Members, the Parliamentary and Ministerial Code of Conduct Act Chapter 16 of the Laws of Zambia and our own Standing Orders provide guidance on the subject of an hon. Member having pecuniary interest in a matter before the House or a Committee. In this regard, Section 5 of the Act provides as follows:

“A Member shall not speak in the National Assembly or in a Committee thereof on a matter in which he has direct pecuniary interest unless he has disclosed the nature of that interest to the Assembly or Committee.”

Further, Standing Order No. 155 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders of 2021 augments this statutory provision on the requirements for a Member to disclose a pecuniary interest, and it provides as follows:

“(1) A member shall not, in the House or in a Committee of the House, vote upon any matter in which he has direct or indirect pecuniary interest.”

Additionally, eminent authors of parliamentary practice and procedure, M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher in their book entitled Practice and Procedure of Parliament at page 347, state as follows:

“A Member having a personal pecuniary or direct interest in a matter before the House is required while taking part in the proceedings of that matter to declare the nature of that interest.”

Furthermore, and appropriate to this case, Standing Order No. 171(2) gives guidance on the matter that a chairperson should preside over meetings of a Committee. It states:

“The Committee chairperson shall act fairly and impartially in discharging the duties of chairperson.”

Hon. Members, the import of these authorities is that an hon. Member in the House or Committee of the House is required to disclose his or her pecuniary interest in any matter under consideration at the earliest possible time in order to avoid conflict of interest. Upon declaring of such interest, that hon. Member is not precluded from participating in the proceedings of the House or a Committee on the matter. However, where such matter is subject to a vote, our Standing Order No. 155 prohibits an hon. Member having a pecuniary interest from voting on the matter.

Hon. Members, in view of the foregoing, if indeed, Mr Mwambazi, MP, has a pecuniary interest, whether direct or indirect in one of the companies that have been summoned to appear before the Public Accounts Committee as alleged, then Mr Mwambazi, MP, is obligated to disclose that interest to the Committee. Further, once the interest is declared, Mr Mwambazi, MP, will not be precluded from participating in the proceedings of the Committee. However, in the event that a question is put to a vote, he will be precluded from taking a vote on that matter.

Finally, if indeed, he has an interest in the companies summoned by the Public Accounts Committee, then based on Standing Order No. 171(2), Mr Mwambazi, MP, should recuse himself from presiding over the Public Accounts Committee meetings but continue to participate as an ordinary hon. Member of Parliament during the consideration of the Auditor-General’s queries on the procurement of COVID-19 materials.

I thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

BY MR KAPYANGA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MPIKA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR JACK MWIIMBU, ON HIS REMARK THAT SOME POLICE OFFICERS ARE ARMED ROBBERS

Mr Kapyanga: On a Matter of Urgent Public Importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A Matter of Urgent Public Importance is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I rise on a Matter of Urgent Public Importance pursuant to Standing Order No. 34. I stand guided as such.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Police Service is one of the departments under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, whose main responsibility is to enforce the law against all forms of crime and disorder in order to maintain peace and order throughout Zambia. It is established in accordance with Article 193(1) and (2) of the Constitution of Zambia that:

“(1) There are established the following national security services –

The Zambia Police Service; …

The Zambia Police Service shall –

protect life and property;
preserve peace and maintain law and order;
ensure the security of the people;
detect and prevent crime;
uphold the Bill of Rights;
foster and promote good relationships with the Defence Force, other national security services and members of society; and
perform other functions as prescribed.”

Madam Speaker, we are alarmed. Last week, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security was on record as having told the Zambian people that some police officers are involved in some criminal enterprise and are armed robbers.

Madam Speaker, these are officers who, a few months ago, led dignified lives under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, which built them houses, bought them vehicles and uniforms, and modernised the service itself. Are they involved in these activities because life has become unbearable under the International Monetary Fund (IMF) conditions of the New Dawn?

Madam Speaker, the lives of our officers have been put in danger by this revelation by their own hon. Minister. When the Zambian people see a police officer, they see protection. Now, they will be seeing armed robbers, and this may lead to the lynching of officers by members of the public. These are our hard-working officers, but the nation is being informed that they are armed robbers.

Madam Speaker, since the hon. Minister did not pinpoint and mention the names of those police officers who are armed robbers, the Zambian people will not know who exactly those rogue police officers are. The hon. Minister should have, at least, mentioned the names of those officers who are involved in those activities because from where he stands, that statement was issued from an informed point of view.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence to protect the lives of our hard-working officers and their dignity following this revelation by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, allow me to quote the Zambia Daily Mail of Saturday, 5^th March, which states:

“Mwiimbu says some police officers are behind some robberies.”

Madam Speaker, another one says:

“Rogue cops on the loose”

“Minister Jack Mwiimbu warns those behind Copperbelt...”

Madam Speaker, that is the Times of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the Daily Nation says:

“Police officers behind armed robberies, says Mwiimbu.”

Madam Speaker, allow me to lay these newspapers on the Table.

Mr Kapyanga laid the newspapers on the Table.

BY MR E. TEMBO, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR FEIRA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF TOURISM, MR SIKUMBA, ON ELEPHANTS KILLING PEOPLE IN FEIRA

Mr E. Tembo: On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance, which is of a very emotional nature, is directed at the hon. Minister of Tourism.

Madam Speaker, in Feira, we have been infested with a number of herds of elephants that have surrounded the city in three areas. One area is Mandombe

Hon. Members: District!

Mr E. Tembo: Cimo cine. It is just the same.

Madam Speaker, the other areas are Mpuka and Kavalamanja.

Madam Speaker, the animals are supposed to stay away from the people, as the area is a game management area (GMA). However, they have come where the people are and are actually living there. We have made efforts to communicate, and this information has been brought to the attention of the Ministry of Tourism; the hon. Minister, the Permanent Secretary (PS) and all the senior officers in the game parks. However, there has not been any fruitful response. Even today, one person was killed around 0400 hours. Further, just yesterday, we buried a person who was killed previously. As a result, right now, the community is rising up because it has not seen anything come from the Government. Now, the people do not want to see anything to do with the Government because they are losing interest and faith or confidence in the Government.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Tourism in order to keep quiet even when we are losing lives? We have given the impression that human life is less significant than that of wildlife. That is the impression that the people have. No wonder, there is uproar even as I speak.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: I will start with the matter that was raised by the hon. Member for Chilubi. Hon. Member for Chilubi, the matter that you have raised as a matter of urgent public importance does not qualify to be raised under Standing Order No. 134 and 135. It does not meet the criteria particularly stated at Standing Order No. 135. Whereas the matter might be of importance to a number of people, I advise that you seek other ways of raising it. However, in my view, I consider that the issue of blacklisting is a process and it will be done in accordance with the law. However, the hon. Member for Chilubi is free to use other means. Maybe bring a question before the House so that it can be addressed by the respective person. Since you saying it applies to all Government ministries, maybe Her Honour the Vice-President will be able to clarify the matter.

On the one that the hon. Member for Mpika has raised, about the statement which has been attributed to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, hon. Member for Mpika, these issues that you have raised or mentioned in my view border on issues of national security and also relate to criminal investigations. So, it will be improper for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to come to this honourable House and give a ministerial statement which will put the national security of our country at risk and also the issue of investigations. If there are, indeed, criminal elements in the police, these, of course, have to be dealt with. They can be dealt with by carrying out proper investigations so that these police officers can be taken to court and be prosecuted.

So, if I order the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to come and give a ministerial statement, I would be pre-empting whatever efforts that the hon. Minister is taking to rid the police of criminal elements.

With regards to the point that has been raised by the hon. Member for Feira, indeed, that issue is of concern and it requires immediate intervention by the Ministry of Tourism in consultation with the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. If, indeed, there is a conflict between animals and human beings, measures have to be taken to address the conflict. Also, when people start fighting with the police and law enforcement officers, in the process, life is lost. I think that should not be allowed. There is a need for measures to be taken and the hon. Minister of Tourism is required to come before this honourable House on Wednesday next week to render a ministerial statement on the matter and to see what measures have been taken.

However, immediately, measures should be taken. Hon. Member for Feira, you are requested to engage the hon. Minister of Tourism and see what immediate measures can be taken in order to avert this catastrophe. We cannot afford to lose lives. So, instead of waiting for matters to be raised as matters of urgent public importance, we should always strive to ensure that we engage the respective authorities to see what measures can be taken to avert loss of life. So, the hon. Minister, as I have guided, will come to the House on Wednesday next week to render a ministerial statement.

MR PETER PHIRI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MKAIKA, ON THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, HON. MTOLO, ON FERTILISER IN KATETE DISTRICT.

Mr P. Phiri: On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr P. Phiri: Madam Speaker, the matter concerns the fertiliser issue in Katete District. This morning, farmers gathered at the sheds to check whether urea fertiliser was in. However, there is nothing as at now. You are aware that last week, the hon. Minister of Agriculture, who is also my brother, issued a statement in the House saying that by Monday, urea fertiliser would be in, more especially in those districts which had not yet received the fertiliser. However, in Katete, no fertiliser has come in.

Madam Speaker, as you are aware, urea fertiliser has a period in which it has to be applied. When this period elapses, the fertiliser will be of no use. When is the fertiliser going to be delivered to Katete District for farmers to apply it? We are receiving a bit of rains and if this opportunity goes, there will be a disaster in Katete because most of the farmers will not apply fertiliser.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: Indeed, the hon. Minister did make a statement on Friday on this matter. However, hon. Member for Mkaika, the matter that you have raised does not fail under matters of urgent public importance. It is my view that the matter touches on Government Assurances. Since the hon. Minister was before this honourable House and made some assurances that fertiliser will be delivered, I think you can find other means and ways of raising the matter with the hon. Minister of Agriculture on the assurances that he made before this honourable House.

MR MUNG’ANDU, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHAMA SOUTH, ON THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON DELAY OF FERTILISER DISTRIBUTION

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, thank you for granting the people of Chama South an opportunity to raise a matter under Standing Order 34. I am raising this matter of public importance on the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, this country has clearly shown in the past ten years that the northern region has been receiving favourable rainfall compared to the southern region. For example, two years ago there was an acute drought in the Southern Province and part of the Western Province. Due to the analytical approach in terms of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), people in the northern region, which receives favourable rainfall, were given direct input support, so that they produce enough to cover regions that might not have the fortunate situation of receiving favourable rainfall. However, the hon. Minister told this House that the previous regime clearly demonstrated discrimination by giving more bags of fertiliser –

Madam Speaker: Order! Order!

Hon. Member for Chama South, are you sure you are raising that point at the correct time as a matter of urgent public importance, considering the criteria that is attached to matters that are raised under Standing Order 134? If it is not, then we should move on.

Mr Mung’andu: Yes, Madam Speaker. When I come to my final question, it will qualify. It is so urgent because it touches on the –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chama South, please, go straight to the point. Do not debate your issues. From the debate that you are rendering on the Floor of this House, it appears the matter does not qualify. So allow me to get to the point instead of debating the matter.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, the point is that clearly, the people in the Eastern Province have not received urea fertiliser. The hon. Member for Mkaika is just from presenting his challenge there. The other day, the hon. Members for Lundazi and Chasefu also presented the same.

Madam Speaker, now that it is clear that the southern region is likely or is already experiencing a drought at a very crucial stage of the growth of our staple food, maize, when it is tussling, there is no rain and some of the maize is withering. Is the hon. Minister of Agriculture in order to give two conflicting statements which border on food security, and therefore, the nutrition and lives of our people? He said the previous Government was discriminating other regions. At the same time, he said the other regions were given inputs through the Electronic-Voucher (e-Voucher), which comes to the same thing, in my opinion. Was he in order to say that? If not, what measures is he going to put in place to ensure that those regions which produce enough food to take care of other regions this time around are not affected because if they are affected, the food security of this country and lives of Zambian citizens will be at risk? I seek your serious clarification on these two positions that have been given by the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama South, clearly the matter that you have raised does not qualify to be raised under Standing Order 134. What I have said in relation to the hon. Member for Mkaika equally applies to the point that you have raised. Please do seek clarification from the hon. Minister of Agriculture using other means, but definitely not under Standing Order 134.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

POSITION TAKEN BY THE ZAMBIAN GOVERNMENT AT THE 11^TH EMERGENCY SPECIAL SESSION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY – PLENARY MEETING ON THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE

The Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation (Mr Kakubo): Madam Speaker, following speculation, a point of order that was raised in the House and your directive on the issue on how the Government of the Republic of Zambia voted at the United Nations (UN), I now present to the House a statement clarifying these matters further.

Madam Speaker, the Republic of Zambia was amongst 141 countries that voted in favour of the UN resolution to demand the cessation of armed conflict in Ukraine, amongst other demands. It is important at this point that we put all matters in their perspective. In this case, I wish to refer to the issue of the ongoing unfortunate war in Ukraine and the decision by this Government to join the international community is supporting the UN resolution that occurred on 2^nd March, 2022.

Madam Speaker, in a war situation, it is not always the best time to discuss ideological and geopolitical differences, or the alignment of one country either to the east or the west, or indeed whether Russia as a country had valid concerns regarding its decision to invade Ukraine.

Madam Speaker, on 2^nd March, 2022, in a resolution entitled “Aggression Against Ukraine”, Zambia voted ‘yes’. I am sure that hon. Members of this House who have taken time to read in full the UN resolution will agree that the elements that were contained in this very important resolution are consistent with the UN Charter and with other conventions and protocols which member states, including Zambia, are party to. The adoption of the UN resolution was through a vote in which member states voted as follows: 141 members, including our country, Zambia, supported the resolution; five member countries voted against it; and thirty-five abstained. The key issues that were agreed upon in this resolution include the following:

reaffirming commitment to the sovereignty, independence, unity and the territorial integrity of the country of Ukraine within its internationally recognised borders and extending to its territorial waters;
the demand for all parties concerned to allow for unhindered access to humanitarian assistance and the respect of human rights;
for demand for all parties to comply with their obligations under international humanitarian law to spare the civilian population and civilian objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population and also respecting and protecting humanitarian personnel and consignments used for humanitarian relief operations; and
urging for the immediate and peaceful resolution of the conflict between the Russian Federation and Ukraine through political dialogue, negotiations, mediation and other peaceful means.

Madam Speaker, these highlighted matters in the resolution not only required the responsible and bold action by this Government of the Republic of Zambia and other member state of the General Assembly to show commitment in order to stop war which is primarily the purpose for which UN exists.

Madam Speaker, this commencement also demonstrated to the upholding of the UN Charter with all its principles under ideals for which this country has signed up to for many years.

Madam Speaker, it is therefore, of paramount importance to remember at this point that our obligation to ensure that the Charter of the United Nations and the promotion of the rule of law is always and always upheld. As hon. Members may wish to recall, from the time of our founding President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, may his soul rest in peace, Zambia’s foreign policy has been based on principles which respect the territorial integrity and political independence of any state on the globe and its boundaries. Further, Zambia has never supported war or the use of force against any country. Zambia respects international humanitarian law that upholds the protection of civilians in an event of a humanitarian crisis. Therefore, when Zambia voted yes to the UN resolution, this is what Zambia agreed to.

Madam Speaker, allow me to emphasise at this point by referring to Article 2 of the United Nations Charter which obliges member states in their international relations to refrain from the threat or the use of force against the territorial integrity or the political independence of any state. Furthermore, it calls for the settlement of international disputes by peaceful means. The statement that was issued by our Ambassador accredited to the UN in New York, clearly made this point in full.

Madam Speaker, I reiterate therefore, that this Government will continue to rely on the principles that have continued call for the cessation of hostilities around the world and also on the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Like many other countries, we believe that there is still time for the parties involved, all of them, to arrive at a diplomatic solution. This is Zambia’s preferred position.

Madam Speaker, there is no goodness in war, especially a war whose consequences will always be at a risk of the whole world being shaken. The world is already bearing the consequences of the humanitarian crisis that this war is already causing, including the need for various countries, including Zambia, to evacuate nationals out of Ukraine at a huge expense. In our case, despite being geographically thousands of miles away from where the conflict is happening, we are already feeling the effects of this war in a number of sectors of our economy, including the destabilisation of our local currency.

Madam Speaker, war breeds unbearable outcomes all the time, including the loss of lives of innocent people, displacement of communities and families, and worsens famine. In other regions, as resources that ordinarily should be used to help the weak in society are channelled towards expenses that have to do with war and the damage it leaves behind.

Madam speaker, I conclude by emphasising to the House that the position taken by the Government of Zambia at the emergency special session of the UN General Assembly is consistent with Zambia’s existing foreign policy. It is also in line with Zambia’s national interest and most importantly, in accordance with the UN Charter to which we are a signatory.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation. As we raise our questions, let us be to the point. Let us not debate our questions.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, we know that the relationship between Zambia and Russia is historical. In the recent past, the government of Russia had reached out and engaged the Zambian Government. The speaker visited this country and indeed in this Parliament and a number of things were discussed.

Madam Speaker, we also know that certain countries in the region abstained from voting. We realise that Zambia took a side which many Zambians felt was not have been an appropriate decision especially that historically we have remained none aligned. We have not taken sides in a fight that is not ours.

Madam Speaker, what specific advantage was there in us voting against Russia as opposed to abstaining like other countries did in the region?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I have a few things to clarify there. First of all, non-alignment of a country does not mean indecision. Our membership to the Non-Aligned Movement is clear. The Non-Aligned Movement does not support war and Zambia being a member, also does not support war. Further, our vote at the UN as clearly stipulated in the statement is not against Russia. It is a vote against war and bloodshed. It is a principled vote because this country has a very clear foreign policy and we stuck to our foreign policy obligations. We are also members of the UN, we are signatories to the charter, and therefore, our vote was guided by principles.

I thank you, Madam

Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, indeed I stand in solidarity with our New Dawn Government for the position taken. It is always nice align yourself, stand somewhere and be able to defend that position than being nowhere at all. In fact, I also want to commend the Government for the evacuation undertaking that they did successfully. It is highly commendable.

Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister help us to understand why there is war in Russia. Why is Russia fighting? I ask this for the benefit of many Zambians out there in the streets so that the ordinary man on the streets may know why this is happening.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I am afraid that at this point the Government does not want to get itself involved in the description of this war at this moment. Our interest, I think, is very clear. We are calling for a ceasefire and the Government is very firm on that. We would like an end to this war. We are of the firm belief that it is possible for the parties that are involved to come to the table and come to a diplomatic solution. We are aware that the parties that are involved in this matter are actually making efforts to end the war.

Madam, we want to urge hon. Members to pray for the countries that are involved. It is in our best interest as Zambia to have a peaceful world. That way, we can concentrate on the issues that concern us that will particularly benefit our country. We would like to trade with Ukraine. We would like to continue doing normal business with all countries that are involved so that there is parity in business, there is peace everywhere, lives are not lost and that we can concentrate on serving people that are disadvantaged across the world.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I join my sister, the hon. Member for Kafue, in commending the hon. Minister for bringing the Zambian students from Ukraine. I am with you on that one but just a gentle reminder to the hon. Minister that there are still students in Russia. However, I am not with the hon. Minister on the vote at the United Nations (UN). I am against that. In an African adage, when a husband and a wife are fighting, one is advised not to take a side.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Which one?

Mr Sampa: I do not know who is he wife or husband between America and Russia ...

Laughter

Mr Sampa: ... but the issue is that the Government told, us through this House, that Zambia was guided by the African Union (AU) and what the Southern African Development Community (SADC) does. We are not in isolation. The big boys of SADC, South Africa, Zimbabwe and Uganda abstained; they did not take a side. It is just Zambia and Malawi who voted on one side.

Interruptions

Mr Sampa: My question to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation is that have we not now annoyed Russia? Has the Russian ambassador complained? In Israel, the Russian ambassador complained when Israel voted as we did. What is our way forward with Russia?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, even at community level, if there is a conflict, for instance, if your rich neighbour unfortunately breaks the law, the correct thing is that the law must apply to everyone. It must not apply to disadvantaged people and privileged people in a different ways. The law is a principle. In this case, Zambia applied a principle. What we want is an end to war. We will not support war and we are not willing to move on that position. I am not sure, Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament for Matero has actually interrogated the reasons that have been used by the countries that he mentioned to have abstained.

As the Government, we have; I can assure him of that. They have good reasons for the decisions they make. Ours was to use the principles as a guiding line. I think we are on firm grounds on these matters, Madam Speaker. The cost of war to the world is very severe. Look at what we have been through; the anxiety of the families for a country like ours just to evacuate the students back home. It is a very difficult progress. War is not desired anywhere. Like we stated as Government, the issue to do with the vote was not asking us to either belong to the east or the west. The vote was about whether this war must exist or must come to a ceasefire. The principles are very clear. We do not support war anywhere, as Government, and it does not matter who has done it.

Madam Speaker, with our relationship with Russia, Zambia has strong bilateral relations with Russia. I can confirm to the House that the Russian ambassador accredited to Zambia has met me three times. Firstly, to introduce himself to me as the new Ambassador for Russia, ...

Mr Kapyanga: Was that before the war or after?

Mr Kakubo: ...secondly, for the ambassador to present copies of his credentials to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation. I received them on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Zambia. The Russian Ambassador is on the list of ambassadors that are on the waiting list to present their credentials to the Head of State. In addition, Madam Speaker, let me mention this: my counterpart in Russia has invited me for a bilateral meeting with him when the situation in Russia settles.

Ms Mulenga: Ah!

Interruptions

Mr Kakubo: On behalf of the Government of Zambia, we intend to honour that invitation. Now, let me also clarify further, Madam. Zambia’s interaction with Russia is at different levels, different parts of our economy and different parts of our country. There are many bilateral issues and agreements that we have between our two countries. Those things cannot be affected by a vote at the UN.

Hon. PF Member: Question!

Mr Kakubo: Let me further explain that we believe that the Russian Government understands Zambia’s principled approach on how we vote at the UN. Our voting pattern at the UN is not a new phenomenon. Let me emphasise that the principles that we refer to were well established by our founding father, President Kaunda. Even when the United States of America (USA) attacked certain countries, for instance, Iraq, you should check how we voted as Zambia.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakubo: We voted against the USA.

Eng. Milupi: You see!

Mr Kakubo: It is to do with the principles on which our foreign policy is founded on. I hope that …

Interruptions

Mr Kakubo: ... all the fears of Zambia not being friendly with any country can now be rested because the world knows that Zambia does its international relations, for many years, based on principles. The world expects Zambia to continue doing that and we shall continue doing so.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, since the hon. Minister seems to have failed to answer Mirriam Chonya or hon. Member for Kafue’s question, I want to find out from him by him explaining to the people of Zambia if, since independence, this country ever voted yes the way this Government has done. What is the difference between yes, no or abstain like what South Africa, Zimbabwe and Uganda did? Can the hon. Minister explain this situation so that we, the people’s representatives and our people who are listening, can know why this Government voted yes.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, we are sovereign state and we are only responsible for the decisions we make as a state.

Mr Chikote: Quality!

Mr Kakubo: We respect decisions made by other countries and we are on firm ground on the issues that we have made decisions on. With regards to the differences in the voting, whether yes, abstain or no, I think I would invite the hon. Member that has requested for that explanation for a cup of tea at Charter House at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation and we will be able to discuss the meanings of yes, no and abstain.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama South, there is an invitation.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, I am happy with the calmness that the hon. Minister is responding to these sensitive matters. Bearing in mind that the hon. Minister is a member of the Defence Council, does the hon. Minister not think that silence is better than a bad answer?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, at the expense of repeating what I have already mentioned, our vote was not against Russia. Us voting yes, was not meant to hurt any country whatsoever. It is a principled approach to end war. This has been done before. Historical facts are there for any hon. Member of Parliament to refer to our history. You will realise that Zambia has voted against different countries at certain points and also we voted for different resolutions at certain points. It is the normal course of business. Be assured that we are on firm ground on this matter and therefore, we are in line with the UN Charter and our Foreign Policy, bearing in mind that countries that have bilateral relations with Zambia have studied our Foreign Policy as much as we have studied theirs.

That is the normal course of business and the House needs to have confidence in its own Government for putting a position in line with our principles and that will actually earn us respect as a country.

Madam Speaker, keeping quiet on issues that have to do with life and death is not in our interest. Imagine a situation where, hypothetically, our country is involved in a conflict with another country, and countries shun away from a possible bloodshed happening in our country. It would not help at all. These are the same principles that we are using now in order to end war in Ukraine. We do not support the war. We are on the side of the humanitarians and peace. We are also on the side of progression and diplomatic solutions to all conflicts that exist in the world. That is the Zambian Government’s position.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, in the hon. Minister’s submission, he said that he decided to follow the law and I know in this case, it is the United Nations (UN) Charter that he is referring to. Surely, in one tone the hon. Minster is saying is that bringing our citizens back from that war-torn country has been a cost on the Zambian Government’s side. Is the UN charter in any way providing the Government some resources to extradite our citizens from those war-torn countries?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, the UN Charter that my hon. Colleague is referring to borders on international law which is very important for the whole world to live in harmony and peace. To answer the last past of his question, the cost to bring back our students to Zambia was fully borne by the Treasury.

Madam Speaker, just to emphasise, I have said this before in previous briefings, that the decision for the Government to look out for its nationals and also for the President to honour his commitment to protect the integrity of our nationals and the country, he is not only responsible for Zambians inside the country, but also for all Zambian nationals regardless of where they live. It was the correct decision that we made to ensure the safety of Zambian students. That is the sort of engagement we shall continue to uphold and where there is danger, we shall look out for nationals by coming in and facilitating for their safe. It is important that we continue that way.

I thank you Madam Speaker.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, thank you and I would like to thank the hon. Minister for his statement (inaudible) –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Bweengwa, it is either you have your television or something on. There is a feedback.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I want the hon. Minister to help this country and the people in this House. Was it a crime to vote against the war in Ukraine or were we trying to help the people of Zambia and the students who are studying in Ukraine? As well as helping the citizens of Ukraine so that we do not lose so many lives because those lives are very important just like ours and those of the people who are against the way Zambia voted.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, voting yes in favour of the resolution was not an act of breaking international law. I assure the hon. Member of Parliament that Zambia voted according to the Charter that we are assigned to. We also voted in line with our Foreign Policy.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, the issue of Russia/Ukraine war cannot be explained in simple terms of taking sides that we are against the war and not necessary taking sides with the countries. I have looked at the United Nations (UN) resolutions in which we voted yes. Madam Speaker it is beyond what the bare eyes can see; the superpowers and what has caused the war. There is interference by the United States of America (USA) in the issues between the east relations.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Feira, the matter is not open for debate. Ask a question on a point of clarification.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, I wanted to give a very good background so that I can ask the question properly and solicit my answer.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: No, just ask your question. It is not time for giving any side of the story.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, I think I have laid enough background. My question relates to Zambia as a sovereign country, but poor and rated underdeveloped. Are we really taking the right position to make decisions at that complicated level? Did we do our due diligence because we have teachers and doctors to employ? We are talking about 43,000, if not more. So for me, did we do our proper due diligence looking at the interest of Zambia to engage ourselves in complicated issues.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I do not think I fully understood the hon. Member’s point when he mentioned that the Zambians are incapable of dealing with a complicated situation. I think we do not share that opinion with him. Furthermore, on that score, yes, we did consult. The statement that is issued explains fully and clearly why we made the decision. However, we do not share his opinion on Zambians.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his statement and I wish this is the way other ministers would have been doing so that burning issues are brought to rest.

Madam Speaker, what was going to be the effect –

Mr Sampa interrupted.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Matero Constituency, are you controlling what the hon. Member for Chitambo is saying or is there is a cap on what should be said and what should not be said. I heard from where I am sitting.

May the hon. Member for Chitambo continue and without any interruption from any hon. Member.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, what were going to be the effects had we abstained?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, the three options at the UN in the resolution like that one, is either you vote yes, no or abstain. Abstaining, as the hon. Member is suggesting, would firstly be a departure from the principles that we stand for. Secondly, abstaining in itself, in diplomacy does not mean neutrality. It is also a decision and position that comes with consequences. Zambia made a principled decision like we have said and we are happy that we made that decision to end the war and ensure that the parties involved come to the table and find a diplomatic solution to the situation in Ukraine.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, we know that Zambia has applied or is negotiating for a loan with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and we also know that the Western Bloc of this world is highly inclined with the IMF. Zambia being a member of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM), we do not support any of the two power blocs; the east or the west. Was the vote, which clearly inclines with the Western Bloc and directly with IMF, a way of Zambia trying to beef up its credentials in order that the IMF loan be approved?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

I notice that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mufulira came in late after the hon. Minister had already rendered his statement.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, just for emphasis and for the benefit of my hon. Colleague who may have come in a bit late, we highlighted the issues that were contained in the resolution. I assure that hon. Member that the resolution was not speaking to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in any line. Therefore, the vote had nothing to do with the IMF.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, you will note that some people wanted to run away from the International Criminal Court (ICC). We had to stop ...

Laughter

Mr Jamba: ... them here in Parliament because of how violent some people who treasure war, fighting and gassing are. How has the ‘yes’ vote in terms of integrity, sovereignty and how straight forward the United Party for National Development (UPND) affected the levels of morality instead of running away from the ICC?

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, that is a very important question and I thank ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kakubo: ... the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwembezhi for recognising that this Government is indeed a Government of integrity. In support of what he has highlighted, I respond to him by saying that this is a Government that will respect the rule of law and that those that run away from the law, the law will still find them.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: There is a point of order that the hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe would like to raise. What is the point of order and on whom?

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, it is not a point of order. I am indicating to ask a question, as I am the one who raised the point of order.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe, you have already been given an opportunity to ask. It is only one question per hon. Member.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I thought the ones who raise points of order have a privilege to get a second chance. That is an established practice because I raised this point of order and you directed the hon. Minister to come up with a statement in Parliament. So, I thought I would be given a second bite at the cherry.

Madam Speaker: This is not ‘Questions for Oral Answer under Standing Order 74’ but questions arising from a ministerial statement and each hon. Member has one opportunity to ask a question.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to further interrogate the statement by my hon. Colleague, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, who is doing very well.

Madam Speaker, votes at these international assemblies like the United Nations (UN) are guided by resolutions that are well crafted. Quiet often, they contain a number of clauses and the various parties have to go through those clauses before they finally commit to make a decision and in this case, that solution had sixteen clauses. Just reading two or three of these clauses, you will notice that, in fact, the order –

Madam Speaker: Order! Hon. Member for Lukulu East, we should not debate but just ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement.

Dr Kalila: Okay. Would the hon. Minister confirm to me and to this House that, in fact, a clause such as Clause 11 is progressive. It reads as follows:

“11. Condemns all violations of international humanitarian law and violations and abuses of human rights, and calls upon all parties to respect strictly the relevant provisions of international humanitarian law, including the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and Additional Protocol I thereto of 1977, 3 as applicable, and to respect international human rights law, and in this regard further demands that all parties ensure respect for and the protection of all medical …’’.

Madam Speaker, are these not very progressive clauses that any progressive Government should support as we did at the UN? Would the hon. Minister confirm that?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: That is a serious leakage.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, there is no better way to put what we voted for at the UN resolution. I am grateful to him that he has been able to expand on the resolution that I had also brought out in the statement. I think it is of no debate that Zambia voted ‘yes’, and I am happy that the hon. Member for Lukulu went as far as to get more detailed information as to why Zambia voted ‘yes’ and it is very clear that our vote was principled and a correct one.

I thank you, Madam Speaker:

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, I have a few clarifications to seek from the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

Madam Speaker: Order! Hon. Member, only one question, please.

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, thank you. I am guided.

Madam Speaker, we voted alongside the United Nations (UN) against the war in Russia, as the hon. Minister put it. Now, in the event that the UN asks the Zambian Government to go with it on the sanctions that it has placed against Russia, is the Zambian Government ready to place any sanctions against Russia and how prepared are we?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, all UN resolutions are given in advance to member states as a draft. At that point, each Member State is expected to study the resolution. It is only after studying any particular resolution, line by line, including the small print, that a sovereign State is expected to make a decision and that is what will guide Zambia, in the event that such a resolution is brought.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katotobwe (Luapula): Madam Speaker, when coming up with such a sensitive decision, does the Government take into perspective historical events such as the participation of the United Nations (UN) with its Charter in the assassination of the late Patrice Lumumba?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

That question definitely does not arise as a question on a point of clarification from the ministerial statement that has been rendered by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

OPERATIONALISATION OF ZOMBE BORDER POST

271. Mr Simutowe (Mbala) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

(a) when the Zombe Border Post in Mbala District will become operational; and

(b) what the cause of the delay in operationalising the border post is.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, the Zombe Immigration Border Control has been operational since 1978.

Madam, as indicated in part (a), the office is operational.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I am raising a point of order in relation to Standing Order No. 239(2).

Mr Chitotela resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: Proceed. Sorry I was just –

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, as Opposition hon. Members of Parliament who are supposed to protect the integrity of this House, we are getting concerned at the neglect and arrogance by the Executive to disregard your orders.

Madam, last week on Tuesday, you issued a directive to the hon. Minister of Health to come to this House on Friday to render a ministerial statement regarding the employment of health workers. We patiently waited. She is a seasoned hon. Member of Parliament who must understand the respect that we need to accord to you and your office when you issue directives.

Madam Speaker, today is Thursday and the Executive has conspicuously been quiet, undermining your authority and your office. Is the hon. Minister of Health in order not to respect your decision and your order when you directed that she needed to come and issue a ministerial statement? As you may be aware, your directives to all hon. Members of Parliament are instructive and binding for the smooth operation of this House.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Pambashe, the hon. Minister of Health was ready to render the ministerial statement on Friday, but because we had another ministerial statement and did not have sufficient time to accommodate the ministerial statement, we thought it would be delivered in the course of this week.

The hon. Minister is ready, but for now, I believe she has travelled outside the country. However, I am sure that is a matter that can be attended to. We will attend to it. It is the Office of the Clerk, actually, which needs to find a slot for the hon. Minister to be able to render that ministerial statement. It is definitely not her fault.

Thank you for that observation. You are very alert.

Laughter

PROMOTION OF RICE PRODUCTION AT COMMERCIAL LEVEL IN

KANCHIBIYA CONSTITUENCY

272. Mr Fube (Chilubi) (on behalf of Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya)): asked the Minister of Agriculture:

(a) whether the Government has any plans to promote the production of rice at a commercial level in

Nchubula area in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency;

(b) if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, the Government acknowledges that agriculture presents the best opportunity to attain growth, especially that the majority of our people, about 60 per cent, are dependent on it. I, therefore, inform the House that rice is one of the strategic crops under the crop diversification agenda. Therefore, the Government has plans to promote the production of rice, not only in Nchubula in Kanchibiya Constituency, but throughout Zambia where rice can be grown.

Madam, the plans to promote rice production in the country are already in place and are being implemented. With regard to Kanchibiya District, the Ministry of Agriculture carried out several rice demonstrations to showcase the potential for rice production. The demonstrations were successful and demonstrated immense potential. However, the uptake by farmers has been, unfortunately, slow.

Madam Speaker, in order to promote rice production countrywide, the Government is:

(a) promoting the production of rice among farmers through extension services;

(b) carrying out research to purify rice seed and make it readily available to farmers; and

(c) the Ministry, with the support of the Japanese International Cooperation Agency (JICA), undertook the rice dissemination project which trained agricultural extension staff, promoted rice production and research.

Madam, farmers in Nchubula who are interested in rice production can access services from the ministry in the district.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I am a bit concerned that the response from the hon. Minister is not Kanchibiya and Nchubula specific. The question is very clear as to what plans the Government has for this area. The hon. Minister has addressed himself to the challenges and the uptake, but the reason the people of Kanchibiya are asking this question is because the uptake can only improve with intervention from the Government.

Madam, the statement from the hon. Minister leaves no hope for the people of Kanchibiya as it is not specific and he broadens his response to country level. The question, again, is very clear. What specific interventions is the ministry taking to ensure that the rice farmers in Nchubula area, who have grown this crop since time immemorial, can see improved uptake and contribute to the stance by Government to ensure that agriculture plays a key role in contributing to the country’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP)? I think that is the response that the people of Kanchibiya are asking for.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I will try to be a bit more specific and the answer is as follows: Rice production in that area has been promoted but the uptake by farmers has been slow. We are encouraging the farmers in that area, in Nchubula to contact the Ministry of Agriculture so that we can aid them in growing rice. Actually, the ministry is looking forward to the farmers to reach out to the Ministry of Agriculture so that the production of rice can be enhanced.

Madam Speaker, I generalise the answers because we would like to see an increase in rice production. Currently, we are producing about 65,000 metric tonnes in a country which is consuming more than 100,000 metric tonnes. We have to import rice to meet its demand and that is not healthy. So, I apologise if I was not specific to Kanchibiya. However, the farmers in Kanchibiya have not come forward in numbers as expected, so that we can promote the rice production.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, when a question is specific, the requirement is that it be answered specifically in relation to the question. There is no need to open it because there is a risk of conflicting statements being rendered in future.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I do note your concern as well as that of the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya about how widely the hon. Minister answered the question. It was almost giving me temptation to even ask about Chilubi but all the same, I will try to stick to Nchubula area.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the uptake in Nchubula area has not been impressive and that there were many demonstrations that were done. Therefore, can the hon. Minister state the hectarage that Nchubula area undertook when those demonstrations were taken and the type of rice that was being promoted in that area.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I did not come with those specific answers but I would be very happy to provide those answers.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, I request that the hon. Minister comes back with an answer for the people of Kanchibiya. The reason I am asking the ministry responsible is because I understand the potential that lies around Nchubula and Kanchibiya in particular to contribute to rice production and it mitigating the deficit that this country is faced with.

Madam Speaker, with your indulgence and on behalf of the good people of Kanchibiya and out of a lot of respect, the people of Kanchibiya deserve answers to this question and the response that we got from the hon. Minister does not help us in any way. I would request that the hon. Minister comes back to answer to this question.

Madam Speaker: In view of the observation by the hon. Member for Kanchibiya, the hon. Minister is directed to come back with specific answers in relation to Nchubula in order to address the question that has been raised by the hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, as a Backbench, we are getting concerned with the hon. Ministers, although not all of them. Some are letting down the President. Surely, when the President complains, it is a genuine complaint.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said the Government intends to promote agriculture throughout the country. The people of Pambashe are wondering how he is going to promote rice growing in Pambashe Constituency as a business when he has failed to deliver fertiliser in the Eastern Province. The hon. Minister has been there and knows the potential in Pambashe. Can the hon. Minister assure us that he is going to promote rice growing in Pambashe Constituency? On Thursday, he lied, in this House, to the nation that by the close of the day, trucks would be rolling into the Eastern Province.

Madam Speaker, he comes here and says that he is able to promote agriculture by growing of rice across the country, but he has failed to sustain the maize that he found at a booming stage.

Madam Speaker: That question does not arise, from the question that is being answered by the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Since you have debated the question sufficiently, I will not ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture to get back to you.

PLANS TO REHABILITATE TOWNSHIP ROADS IN MPONGWE DISTRICT

273. Mr Ngowani (Mpongwe) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate township roads in Mpongwe District; and
if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, the Government indeed has plans to rehabilitee the township roads in Mpongwe District. However, at the moment, the Government is faced with budgetary constraints and to this effect, the ministry is working on a five year implementation plan which will entail rehabilitation of township roads in a phased and scheduled approach. We are confident that this systematic rescheduling of road projects will ensure efficiency and avoid over procurement of work as the situation was in the past.

Madam Speaker, implementation of township roads rehabilitation in Mpongwe will depend on the rescheduling of works and the availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Ngowani: Madam Speaker, in 2014, as part of road rehabilitation in Mpongwe, it was given 15 km of upgrading roads from gravel to bituminous standard. However, from 2014 up to now, nothing has happened.

Madam Speaker, the people of Mpongwe want to know if this project still stands or if the money meant for it was diverted somewhere else.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I want to confirm that the money meant for this project was not diverted to any place. However, as I said in my maiden answer to the hon. Member, the situation of discontinuation of these road projects is countrywide. It is not just in Mpongwe, but includes Mazabuka Central Constituency, the constituency that I represent. These projects were stopped by a government decision, where it was said that any project which had been over-procured had to be stopped. Do not forget that right now, one of the headaches we have in my ministry is the issue of over-procurement against the available funds. So, it was a countrywide decision that the Government then, we know which Government this was, decided to stop any project that was below 80 per cent with a view to finish those that were above 80 per cent.

Sadly, Madam Speaker, I can confirm to my dear brother and friend that even those that were above 80 per cent as at the time the people of Zambia decided to remove them from power had not been completed. So, we still have a huge backlog to try and finish those that were above 80 per cent. Coupled to this, there was no corresponding budgetary allocation even for those that were at 80 per cent.

Consequent to that, and the underlying reason that I mentioned to you that we have budgetary constraints, it has been very difficult to complete these projects because right now, everyone, including a five year old child, knows that the biggest task that we have as a Government is to try and bring down the debt mountain that was left by our hon. Colleagues. Once we do a reasonable clean up of the situation as it currently is, I just said we have a systematic plan which we put at five years in order to try and salvage all these works that were stopped back in 2014.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I think the issue for Mpongwe is a sad story. I think it has been eight years from 2014 to date. The President and the Government then decided to give a good number of districts some township roads, including Mazabuka which the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development represents.

Madam Speaker, Mpongwe was given 14 km and Nyimba was given 14.7 km. You will agree with me that very few districts benefitted from this decision. A good number of districts did not benefit. Is it possible to go back to the drawing board to check which districts were given road projects from 2014 and why the projects were not fulfilled so that, maybe, we can start from there in dealing with the issues of over-procurement?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I want to confirm to him that we know who was given these township road projects. We know who was given with no doubt in our minds, but what I said is that the overriding factor here is that even for those who were given, they were given over and above the budgetary allocation. For me to have said to the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpongwe that we have a five year plan in order to revamp these works, it is to give us some safety breathing valve to complete sanitising the issue of over-procurement, which is the overriding problem at this point in time. For the hon. Member’s information, contracts were being given as if it were fritters and scones being given to people, even when there was no corresponding money available in the Treasury.

Madam Speaker, when I say that, currently as I speak on the Floor of this House, against a budget of K300 million as at 2020, the Government then had procured roads up to K13 billion. Now tell me, how can anybody, even if they know how to do abracadabra, sort out such a problem?

Madam, the fortunate thing is, and it does not make the situation any better, that against all this over-procurement, only K4.1 billion, which is still too much, against a budget of K300 million has what they call interim payment certificates (IPCs). The IPCs are certificates that are generated from the local district councils confirming that work was done.

Madam Speaker, it was this hon. Minister on the Floor of this House who came and said we had done an audit to see the authentication of these certificates. Sadly, not all of them have proven to be authentic. In short, and to put it more boldly, there was a fraud in that ministry. To clean up a fraud and obtaining money via false pretence are serious matters. So we need time to separate all these things in order to move the bad from the good.

Madam, all this is overridden by what I just said earlier on, that we have a plan at the back of our minds, which we have put at a timeframe of five years to clean up the wrong that happened. This will be done while harbouring the intention to revamp and give benefits to our citizens by, for example, giving the people of Mpongwe the 14 km which they were given. The people of Nyimba will be given the same allocation, if it was so. The people of Mazabuka will also get 22 km which they were given at procurement stage, but no work has been done.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Daka (Msanzala): Madam Speaker, I would like to know how many kilometres have been located to Mpongwe as we are also waiting to know how many kilometres will be done in Msanzala in this five year master plan.

Madam Speaker: That is really expanding the question. So we will not ask the hon. Minister to answer it.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, the issue of Mpongwe township roads is unfortunate and it is obviously not isolated. I think we have bad roads in all the townships. However, the answers coming from this ministry all time are about cleaning up and the lack of funds and yet time is moving. All of us were voted into power to provide solutions and we have similar challenges of township roads. Are we going to see the Government engaging cooperating partners such as the German Government or the Government of India to source for funds so that we can work on some township roads?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu, who is my son, as a matter of fact, for asking a question such as he has done. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. It was his party, the Patriotic Front (PF), which over-procured these roads. To put it more plainly, they are the causers of these headaches that I have. They are the reason we are giving such answers of when funds are available and when we normalise the procurement process, we are going to go back to make amends to those contracts such as the Mpongwe township roads at 14 km.

Madam, I am not shy to say the Mpongwe contract is not cancelled, but simply frozen. So the five year plan takes into account that in Mpongwe, we owe them 14 km of township roads. This is because some levels of work were done, save for the fact that they were stopped abruptly. At that time, the party where Hon. Christopher Shakafuswa comes from had over-procured roads. Now, if he is in a hurry for solutions to be found, we will find the solutions.

Madam Speaker, unfortunately, some of these solutions will entail arresting some of these people (pointing at hon. PF Members). Some of them are here in this Parliament or in this House. They will be arrested for collecting money through what they call ‘advance payment’, but did not work on the roads. Now, if they want us to play hardball, we know how to play hardball. They should not tempt me to name them because they are here. This is a fact of life.

Madam Speaker, what I have observed is that they are taking some of our kindness for a weakness. It is not a weakness.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: If you are innocent just remain quite. There are some among you in this House, in this Parliament who should not even open their mouths on account of these roads.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, It is stubborn fact so do not push me to the wall. There are hon. Members of this House –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can we have some order.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I said and I will repeat, with no fear of any contradiction, that if they want us to play a hardball and depart from the decency of trying to sort out the problem that the PF created in our ministries, we will name and shame them in this House because they are here.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Madam Speaker: Now we are drifting into politics

Ms Lungu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Lungu: Madam Speaker, I rise on Standing Order No. 65(b). The hon. Minister is alleging that there was some type of corrupt activities taking place in his ministry. Is the hon. Minister in order to say that without providing any evidence, when Standing Order No. 65(b) says that an hon. Member should ensure that the information he provides to the House is factual and verifiable?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, we are not going to be drawn into a political debate or an investigative wing of Government.

Mr Chilangwa: Alarming falsehoods.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us wait until the naming is done outside this House. The naming will definitely not be in the House. So, do not be worried about being named. The names will be outside; maybe it will be in the courts of law but not in the House. So, let us avoid debating ourselves.

Mr J. Daka (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I sympathise with the hon. Minister because I can see he is struggling to explain how he can accommodate as many township roads as possible.

Madam Speaker, township roads are more expensive as compared to any other road because you have to take into account the location of services, accommodation of sidewalks, street lighting, and so on and so forth. Has the hon. Minister put in place a research team in his ministry to come up with reasonable designs, which are cheaper but can still come up with durable roads?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am grateful to my colleague the hon. Member of Parliament for his intelligent question. He is a qualified engineer. From the spirit of his question, I can only speculate that he knows that the pricing of these roads, as it was happening before, was inflated. That is what I think he is speaking about. This is part of what we are doing now. Even when you go to areas where township roads were done, you will find that they have already started accumulating potholes, which brings in another issue of quality service delivery. This is something that we, as a ministry, are actively looking into to make sure that going forward, be it gravel, bituminous standard or any other road, the quality of that work must not be compromised. That is what we are trying to do.

Madam Speaker, if we go back to the question on township roads in Mpongwe, just as a way to elucidate my challenge, and please do not sympathise with me but with those who are threatened of being arrested when the time comes, those who got money from the treasury and delivered no service. I am clean; as clean as the late Kaunda’s handkerchief. We are just trying to sort out the problem that was created. We are in the process of making sure that independent engineers give us the actual cost of rehabilitating a gravel road per kilometer and bituminous standard road per kilometer, bearing in mind what kind of specification is attached to that work. That was not happening before. What used to happen before in the Government that just departed, the late PF, was that it did a very good thing by allowing participation of citizens and youths, to be specific, where they said that 20 per cent of any works done should be awarded to youths, for example, to do drainages. Therein became a huge comprise and the story is very sad to tell because it became a jackpot for political cadres whose names I have.

Madam Speaker, I want to say this now, maybe taking advantage of this platform hoping that is the last question I am answering on this subject. We have invited all the 245 contractors to come to our office so that we can face each other, eyeball to eyeball, and ask them questions but they do not come. They are scared to come to my office. I am sure that when the long winding arm of the law decides to beckon them to come and answer, because they have abrogated their own safety to come and discuss, they do not come because most of them, about 90 per cent were PF cadres including Members of Parliament in this House. They do not want come instead they send people, third parties to come and lobby for payments. We are not paying you. We shall not do that. There will be no compromise on that. Once again without sounding like I am issuing a threat, …

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: … do not push me to the wall because I am going to name you. I have the names on this phone. Do you want to dare me I read them now?

Hon. Government Members: Tell us.

Mr Nkombo: Do you want to dare me?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Watch the space

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Speaker, as we come here, we need to treat each other with respect and not threats. We are all adults here and we are hon. Members of Parliament. The time has come when politicking must come to an end. Somebody cannot stand here with a ka phone ati “no I will name you”. Come on! When you were campaigning as United Party for National Development (UPND), –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kawambwa, please ask a supplementary question. You will go and face each other outside.

Mr Chilangwa: Twalamonana ku facility.

Laughter

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, are the answers being given by the hon. Minister for Local Government and Rural Development a clear indication that they have given up, they have failed, they have no solutions and the only thing that they have is rhetoric because the principle of bally fixing it has come to a dead end. I need serious answers.

Madam Speaker: Now, that is a loaded question.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, a phone is a data bank. Now that we have reached this point, please take a pen and write down what I am about to say.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Go to the companies’ registrar and find out for me who Dankel is. Please write. Go and find out who Mount Olive is, go and find out who Jonda is, go and find out who Exoline is.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Go and find out who Lemonic is.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Go and find out who Dankel Son Mining and General Dealers is.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Go and find out who Creamer is. Creamer was your candidate in Kapiri Mposhi competing against Hon. Kakubo, and he lost.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: We invited – You want me to go on?

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: We have invited all these people. I have just given you three to four names. This phone is loaded with your colleagues. There is no need to be excited and get upset –

Mr Chilangwa: They are your colleagues.

Mr Nkombo: There is no reason Madam Speaker, to be upset about facts. We have asked these people I have mentioned to come to the office and have a discussion but none of them have come. We have been to Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA) and we know exactly who is who in this zoo. We owe them K4.1 million according to the IPCs but why are they not coming to the office? Can I owe you money Madam, and you do not come to pinda me? The guilty are afraid.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: They cannot face this face. However, I am still giving them an open door so that we hear their side of the story because we have one side of the story ourselves. Let us hear their side of the story. Madam Speaker, Dankel is the former or is he still District Chairman for the PF in Lusaka. When the President said they were awarding contracts to people who do not even have shovel, this is what he was talking about.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: If want, you can take me anywhere, we will publish this list. Time for games is over. If you are innocent around this matter, it is advisable, from a friend, a brother like me, to just keep quiet. Do your legislative work. Secretary General, my brother Nickson Chilangwa, do not defend those who did wrong. Do not do it.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, I think, we now are drifting –

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kawambwa, I was speaking when you rose.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, I think we are now derailing into something else. We are not supposed to mention people who are not here and cannot defend themselves. So, let us desist from that practice. Also, the nature of questions that we ask always attracts a specific answer. Please, let us be careful in the manner in which we put questions. These are supplementary questions which should have arisen from a question that has been put up by the hon. Member for Mpongwe but we drifted into something completely different. We are now turning this House into a political battle. Let us desist from doing that.

Now, Hon. Member for Kawambwa, do you still want to say something?

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, it is well covered by your counsel.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, at the risk of being ruled out but I will leave up to you. I have been invited to just ask because the hon. Minister has been very generous in giving his answers even beyond Mpongwe. I hear him when he says that the task he has been doing is to separate the good from the bad contractors. Now, even if there is that one good contractor, the question I am asking on behalf of that one good contractor who did the job but up to now he has not been paid. The problem that one is facing is that he is almost losing every asset that he had to finance that job which he did and is caught up in this web of cadre and not cadre. He is losing his houses as workers he engaged to do these jobs are taking him to court. He is losing cars and becoming destitute because of this battle. When is that one good contractor going to receive his payment?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question from my hon. Colleague. A very decent question, as a matter of fact. I want to confess here that I am the biggest sympathiser for those that are in the bracket of the good.

Madam, I can tell you that as of last month, we started paying those who had done work above 80 per cent. Those we call ‘in the green’. Even so, the amounts of money that we budgeted for is K500 million against K300 million which the party that just came out of power budgeted for. We can only expend about K41 million in the whole ministry to include those who did roads, township roads, feeder roads, drainage cleaning and those who do work everywhere else in the ministry. So, even if we have started paying, I know for a fact that the bailiffs are busy collecting things from these individuals who thought they would never come out of power. I sympathise with them. Banks are collecting and they should collect.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: That is what they should do because these are the same individuals who were playing and making mattresses out K100 notes and burning the green money; the dollar. We saw those things happening. It is time to bring decency back. I am also not afraid to say that even among those we are calling the good had been cowed down to PF intimidation because PF only contracted those who were their praise singers. That is what happened. Many people who have the trade of road maintenance engineering were sidelined completely and left on the wayside. Cadres got contracts that were sold to those knew how to do the work. What that means, Madam Speaker, is the same issue my colleague from Chadiza raised of why roads are so expensive? Chaps were making money from being known to be PF. That is why it became lucrative to become a cadre. Not long ago, children were being asked what they want to be in future and their responses were to be a cadre because cadres were playing with money.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Madam, so, I sympathise with people like that but I am inviting them to come and sit with us so that we make a payment plan. We have no difficulties to those genuine people to issue letters, not of guarantee but to confirm to whichever bank they borrowed money from to say we owe them money evidenced by those IPCs but to separate the good IPCs from the bad ones is not easy for a naked eye, like mine. Do not forget, in the case of feeder roads, after this rainy season, everything is washed away. You cannot even tell where work passed. However, the party that just came out of power used that as a conduit to steal money. Let me be bold now.

Hon. Member: Ah!

Mr Nkombo: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I may not have superintended over local Government but when the hon. Minister stands and looks at the Patriotic Front hon. Members, I would also want him to look to the right hand side of the House.

Hon. UPND Member: Why?

Mr Chitotela: For an IPC to pass, there must be a resident engineer appointed to sign. A resident engineer, a civil servant, a regional manager responsible for that project sign it and it goes to the hon. Minister’s ministry, where the engineer signs it, then it goes to the National Road Fund Agency (NFRA) where it is also signed, then it goes for payment. I am getting concerned. Was it rooted that everyone in the system …

Mrs Chonya: Yes

Mr Chitotela: … including some sitting on the right –

Interruptions

Mr Chitotela: Do not answer, I know them.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

Mr Chitotela: Were they all compromised to the extent that, today, even genuine members, including those sitting on the right, who did business genuinely, were also compromised? The hon. Minister is not talking about them. He is looking on this side. Can we also start mentioning each other here and say what one did?

Hon. UPND Members: Yes, yes!

Mr Chitotela: So, hon. Minister –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

Hon. Member: What is your question?

Mr Chitotela: The question is; Madam Speaker is the hon. Minister of the State –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we are drifting from the question on the Floor. We have now just taken a countrywide debate on what happened in the road construction business. So, let us go back to the question that is before us that relates to the rehabilitation of township roads in Mpongwe. Let us not do a countrywide debate because we will not exhaust this question that has been asked.

Hon. Member for Pambashe, you may continue.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, his is my brother. I –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I am sorry, my question has been overtaken by events.

Mr Michelo: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I am rising on a point of order under Standing Order No. 65(b).

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Pambashe stood on the Floor of this House and accused the right that we also participated in the looting of national resources.

Madam Speaker, we in the United Party for National Development (UPND) never participated in the looting of taxpayers’ money through dubious tenders like the Patriotic Front (PF) did. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe in order to drag hon. Members on your right that we were also involved in the stealing and looting of taxpayers’ money when we were never even involved in a single K1 tender under the PF Government?

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Bweengwa, if you were following, the hon. Member for Pambashe and other hon. Members who referred to that aspect were adequately guided by the presiding officer. So, I think let us leave the dead dogs to lie. Let us leave that to the investigative wings of the Government because we have no capacity here to know who did what and to what extent. We leave that to the arms of the law.

PLANS TO REHABILITATE SOME INFRASTRUCTURE IN ISOKA CONSTITUENCY

274. Mr Kapyanga (Mpika) (on behalf of Ms Nakaponda (Isoka)) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the following infrastructure in Isoka Parliamentary Constituency:

Isoka Police Station; and

houses for police officers at Isoka Police Station; and

b. if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I inform the House that the Government has plans to rehabilitate the following infrastructure in Isoka Parliamentary Constituency:

Isoka police station; and
houses for police officers.

The plans will be implemented when resources are made available.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, currently, Isoka has eighty-six police officers against the thirty-eight available housing units in the police camp. The difference in the number of police officers who are not accommodated are out there squatting.

Madam Speaker, the police officers in Isoka are not highly motivated to work because they are living in deplorable houses. Not only that, but even the police station is also in a deplorable state. I understand when the hon. Minister says that, when funds are made available. My appeal on behalf of the people and police officers in Isoka is that as the Government rolls out the programme of constructing housing units for the men and women in uniform and also police stations, the hon. Minister should please prioritise Isoka as it has being there for many years without officers having adequate housing units.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague most sincerely for the plea he has made on behalf of the hardworking police officers who are operating under very difficult conditions in Isoka.

Madam Speaker, as the Government we have made a commitment that whenever money is available, we shall take into account the situation that is obtaining in Isoka. We want to improve the conditions that are obtaining in there.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his answers and commitment to improve the conditions for the police officers.

Madam Speaker, just allow me to raise an important issue with regard to the answer given by the hon. Minister and perhaps when the funds will be available.

Madam Speaker, I am really at pains because as hon. Members of Parliament we come here to seek answers. For me, I have no problem even if the funds will be available after 100 years. Honestly, I am always at pains when I get an answer saying “when funds will be available” and that is it.

Mr Kambita: Question!

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, so, I want an answer that is specific. You did guide that there is enough time given –

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, under our Standing Orders, an hon. Member is expected to listen to debates in silence. The hon. Member on the Floor is trying to construct a very good question for the hon. Minister, but the hon. Member for Zambezi East, Hon. Kambita, is passing running comments. Has he assumed the role of the Speaker? I will quote –

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I need your protection.

Madam Speaker: Can we have some order. That is why the hon. Member is standing up to complain about the same behaviour. Can we have some order, please.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, Hon. Kambita is passing comments, thereby disturbing the hon. Member who is supposed to ask a question.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling against this kind of behaviour. It is

as if we are in a night club at Chicago’s.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Madam Speaker: Order! The hon. Members who were making running commentaries while the hon. Member of Parliament for Feira was trying to construct his question, are all out of order. Please, let us observe some silence and we should not have running comments as an hon. Member is trying to ask a question. That would degenerate into some anarchy in the House and it will not be in good standing because members of the public are watching and observing what is happening here. Can we please have some order and dignity in the House.

Hon. Member for Feira, proceed.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, thank you for your ruling. Indeed, I want to be comfortable. I do not want to be left in suspense with regard to the answers coming from hon. Ministers. Therefore, could the hon. Minister clarify what he means by saying that “when the funds will be available”? I do not want references that the Patriotic Front (PF) did this and that because there is a Government in place. Lets us forget about the past and look at what plans are there and what the people of Zambia are expecting.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I am aware that the hon. Member for –

Interruptions

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order! Hon. Members on the right, surely, do you want me to say something?

Hon. Government Members: No.

Madam Speaker: So, can we have order in the House.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, thank you for that intervention.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Feira is aware that it is this House that promulgates the Budget every year. The Government cannot spend any money outside the Budget and when we debate the Budget on the Floor of this House, we do make allocations for all activities that the Government undertakes. It is therefore, the hon. Member’s responsibility and mine to make provisions in the Budget for such activities. If there is no provision in the Budget for activities like the one being proposed, we cannot do anything until money is made available through the Budget.

I thank you, Madam.

COMMENCEMENT OF TARRING OF THE M18 ROAD FROM LUFWANYAMA TO KASEMPA/SOLWEZI ROAD

275. Mr Siachisumo (Lufwanyama): asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

when the tarring of the M18 Road from Lufwanyama to the Kasempa/Solwezi Road will commence;
what the cause of the delay in commencing the project is;
what the total cost of the project is; and
what the timeframe for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, order!

Hon. Member of Parliament for Lufwanyama, can you switch off your microphone. I thought you wanted to hear the answer. How can you hear the answer if you are talking?

Hon. Minister, proceed.

Eng Milupi: Madam Speaker, this question was raised in October last year. However, the upgrading to bituminous standard of the Lufwanyama to Kasempa/Solwezi Junction Road will be undertaken once the fiscal space permits.

Madam Speaker, the project has not yet commenced due to inadequate funds to the road sector and the cost of the project was initially estimated at K812,267,013. This may, however, need to be reviewed following the lapse of time.

Madam Speaker, the timeframe for the completion of the works is estimated at thirty-six calendar months.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Siachisumo: Madam Speaker, the people of Lufwanyama are really expecting this road to be constructed. I just want an assurance from the hon. Minister, for the people of Lufwanyama that this road will be done as soon as possible.

Eng Milupi: Madam Speaker, this question was raised at a specific time and the answers I have given relate to that specific time. However, let me provide further information.

Madam Speaker, the Lufwanyama to Kasempa/Solwezi Junction Road, also known as Lufwanyama to Kankolonkolo is part of the Link Zambia 8000 Project under Phase II of the programme. The project was divided into two lots for ease of implementation.

Madam, Lot 1 of the Lufwanyama/Kankolonkolo Road, which was 98.8 km, was awarded to Messrs SBT Shire JV Build Trust Zambia, at a contract sum of K432,798,056.63, Value Added Tax (VAT) inclusive.

Madam Speaker, Lot 2 of the Lufwanyama/Kankolonkolo Road was awarded to Messrs China Civil with Nakangea Construction at the contract price of K379,468,957.83, VAT inclusive .

Madam Speaker, both projects were awarded in 2016. However, only works for Lot 1 commenced whilst works on Lot 2 could not commerce due to funding constraints.

Madam Speaker, to answer the hon. Members follow-up question, because of the lack of funding, the New Dawn Administration has had to look for innovative ways of carrying out some these works even when we do not have the funds in the Treasury and secondly, because of the huge debt left to this country by the people we took over from. Due to that, the Government does not have the appetite for further debt.

Madam, so, one of the ways we have looked at is that our people need roads and need infrastructure development. That is why we have gone the Public Private Partnership (PPP) route which is basically to ask investors to come and invest by bringing in their own money, undertake the construction works on the roads or whatever infrastructure, at the right cost, right quality and in a timely fashion. This road is part of the roads that generated some debate. This is the development of the road infrastructure where a concession was signed on 10^th August, 2021 and part of the road network was Lufwanyama/Kankolonkolo Road, Kasempa/Kaoma Road, Kaoma/Luampa Road and the Luampa/Simungoma Road.

Madam Speaker, we are currently in discussions with the concessionaire for them to reach financial close and the closure date for that financial close is approaching. They have indicated to us that they think they will reach financial close by the middle of this month. If that happens, the construction on this road is likely to be started very soon. That is the message of hope that I can give to the hon. Member and the people that he represents who are looking forward to this road being constructed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

OPERATIONALISATION OF THE PONTOON AT THE CONFLUENCE OF THE

LUANGWA AND ZAMBEZI RIVERS

276. Mr E. Tembo asked the Minister of Transport and Logistics when the pontoon at the confluence of the Luangwa and Zambezi Rivers in Feira Parliamentary Constituency will become operational.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (on behalf of the Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali)): Madam Speaker, we inform the House that the Government will commence operations of the pontoon at the confluence of the Luangwa and Zambezi Rivers in Feira District as soon as a landing permit is issued by the Zimbabwean authorities.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, when was the request made for the landing permit from the Zimbabwean side?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, this question was put through to the National Assembly on 22^nd December, 2021 and it reached the Secretary to the Cabinet for distribution to concerned ministries on 31^st December, 2021. So, from the 22^nd to 31^st December, 2021.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, the question was when the request for the landing permit was made to the Zimbabwean side and not really what the hon. Minister said.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, maybe I can give more details on this one.

Madam, the Zambian Government met all the requirements stipulated by the Zimbabwean Government for the issuance of a landing permit, except, of course, for the payment of about US$1,000 which is the annual landing fee to the Zimbabwean Government. This payment has not been made because the Zimbabwean Government has not given official correspondence on which account this money is to be paid. Several follow-ups have been made on this matter and the response is yet to be received from the Zimbabwean Government.

Madam, further information is that the Government has installed a 35 tonne capacity pontoon at the confluence of the Luangwa and Zambezi Rivers, just to show how ready we are on the Zambian side. A full complement of pontoon operations and maintenance staff is already on site awaiting commencement of operations.

Madam Speaker, further, the Government has allocated funds in the 2022 Budget for the relocation of another 60 tonne pontoon from Kazungula to Luangwa in anticipation of growth in traffic at this crossing point.

Madam, furthermore, resources have been allocated in the Budget for the rehabilitation of the landing bay on the Zambian side. Additionally, the Zimbabwean Government has constructed a landing bay on their side and plan to construct an access road to the pontoon side.

Madam Speaker, in short, this is a matter that is receiving active consideration, certainly from the Zambian side, as is seen by the answers that I have given. However, in matters of international cooperation and engagement, sometimes you do not have that much authority to force the other side to act at the speed that you want them to act. All we can say is that having made the investments that we have made and knowing how important this crossing point is, we shall continue to follow-up with counterparts in Zimbabwe because all we are looking for is for them to give us an account where we can deposit this US$1,000 so that we can continue the operations on this crossing point.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

STALLED REHABILITATION OF SOME ROADS IN KAFUE CONSTITUENCY

277. Mrs Chonya (Kafue) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

(a) why the rehabilitation of the following roads in Kafue Parliamentary Constituency has stalled:

(i) Shantumbu; and

(ii) C7/Chanyanya;

(b) when the projects will resume; and

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation of the roads in Kafue Constituency has stalled due to the reasons below.

Madam, for Shantumbu Road, the contractor is awaiting payment for works done so far. For C7/Chanyanya Road, the works have stalled as the ministry is reviewing the contractor’s performance for the determination of this contract. This follows the contractor’s failure to get back on site after being instructed to remedy some defective works on that road.

Madam Speaker, the works on Shantumbu Road will resume once the contractor is paid the outstanding amount, whereas the works on the C7/Chanyanya Road Project will resume once the ministry concludes reviewing the contractor’s performance.

Madam, the timeframe for the rehabilitation of the Shantumbu Road is 18 months commencing 1^st December, 2020 to 1^st June, 2022, whereas the timeframe for the rehabilitation of the C7/Chanyanya Road was one year from 12^th November, 2020, to 12^th November, 2021.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Chonya: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in a position to give us the contract sums for the two undertakings?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I must confess that I should have had this on me, but I may have lapsed by not getting it because it was not the integral part of the question. However, the figures for each of these contract sums are readily available and I can give the hon. Member of Parliament those figures first thing in the morning.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

PLANS TO REHABILITATE SOME INFRASTRUCTURE IN CHASEFU DISTRICT

278. Mr Nyambose asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the following infrastructure in Chasefu District:

Chasefu /Chikwa Road; and

Luwelezi Bridge on Chasefu/Chikwa Road; and

b. if so, when the plans will be implemented.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker Government has plans to rehabilitate Chasefu/Chikwa Road and Luwelezi Bridge on Chasefu/Chikwa road.

Madam Speaker rehabilitation works on the Chikwa/Chasefu Road in Chama South Parliamentary Constituency have already commenced. However, progress has stalled because of erratic funding to the project. The rehabilitation of the Luwelezi Bridge is part of the contract for Chikwa/Chasefu Road. Progress on the rehabilitation of the bridge has stalled due to funding challenges.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, my appeal is that the Government should expedite getting resources for these infrastructure as the bridge, right now, is impassable. People cannot cross to Chama South. However, we are monitoring what is happening.

Madam Speaker: Order!

_______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House and Chief Whip (Mr Mulusa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1733 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 10^th March, 2022.

____________

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